1 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Danny and Samantha and welcome to stuff 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: I'll Never Told, your production of iHeart Radio. And it's 3 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: time for another female first. We are joined once again 4 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: by our friend and coworker Eaves. I haven't returned. We're 5 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: so glad you ever returned. Really glad you haven't left 6 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: us yet. Yes, it's always a fun time when we 7 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: get we get Eaves in the studio, you know, having 8 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: one more person to add to the conversation that very 9 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: like easy soothing monotoon. Yeah. I actually have a weird 10 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: thing where I like, I'm not into a SMR or anything, 11 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: but there's certain YouTube videos I watched that are scary, 12 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: but they're delivered in such a way that I just 13 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yes, this horrible thing happened. It's just delivered. 14 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: It's the delivery, and that's howe that happens. But they're 15 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: talking about horrible things, not necessarily horrible things, because it's 16 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: not like true crime. It's more ghost sighting. Okay, isn't 17 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: that one dude that has that really weird Yeah, yeah, 18 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: I know what you're talking about. I love it. It's 19 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: oddly satisfying. Okay. I can't listen to it. I have 20 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: to read it. I can't. Yeah, I get frustrated real 21 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: quick because it's I'm like, all right, I'm just gonna 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: read it because he seems very cool, the dude. I 23 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: don't know if it's the same dude writing, but I'm like, 24 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: because it's not building up to the yea is an 25 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: opposite of what you're seeing, Like the ghost is here, 26 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: but the ghost showed up and there it is? Did 27 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: you see it? Do you believe it? And then it's 28 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: like things that are things that a lot of people 29 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: would agree, like just didn't happen is the most plain, 30 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: like this obviously happened. Obviously there was a flying saucer 31 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: in the sky, and there's no discrepancy in that at all. Sure, 32 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,559 Speaker 1: I'm glad you all knew what I was talking because 33 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: I started like watching them and I'm thinking, man, I'm 34 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: just gonna have to turn the volume down and just 35 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: read it. I'm just gonna read it and go back 36 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: and look at it. Oh that's interesting because I know 37 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: some people will write in and they'll say in the 38 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: most complimentary I think they truly mean as a compliment, 39 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: your voice puts me to sleep, And I'm like, cool, great, 40 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: I mean if it's to you. Yeah, people have said 41 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: that to me, that your voice. I think you have 42 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: a very nice voice. Thank you. We have us had 43 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: that radio voice you think. So. I've always been very 44 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 1: self conscious about my voice, honestly, especially when I was younger, 45 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: because I always thought that my voice was deep, and 46 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: I'm like, well, it was nothing I ever had a 47 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: real sort of like feelings around, but like I would 48 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: think it from time to time. I think the way, Yeah, 49 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: I think all of our voices are fairly deep, and 50 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: that usually is like a more soothing tone. Definitely didn't 51 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: complimented my voice, which freaked me out a little bit 52 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: because I'm like, dude, and yeah, it's just usually dudes, 53 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: calm down. That's so creepy to me. And I don't 54 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: know what to do with you. But to be fair, 55 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: like Adris Alba if he was here, to be like, 56 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 1: just talk to me, like can fall asleep to your voice? 57 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: But that's just me. I don't know. Um, but yeah, no, 58 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: I think like smooth, not necessarily our annunciation or of that, 59 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: but just the tone. You could see that here it 60 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: all right. I think we could be late night radio 61 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: st rock, contempo adult contemplo perfect. Well. Anyway, in our 62 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: nice deliveries, we have an amazing person about today, Um, 63 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: who did you bring for us? Today? We'll be talking 64 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: about Harriet E. Wilson, who was an author in the 65 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. So she was the first black woman to 66 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: publish a novel and she made she did the first 67 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: novel published by a black person in the United States. 68 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: So there was a Clotail, which was a book by 69 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: William Wells Brown, who was a black man, which was 70 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: the first novel published by an African American period, but 71 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: that was published in London in eighteen fifty three and 72 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: it didn't come to Boston until eighteen sixty four. So 73 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: there are those caveats, like obviously there's a history of 74 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: like who was the black person to do this, and 75 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: what was the label for this? And the woman and 76 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: they were African American, but where did it happen? So 77 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: obviously when we have first, we have all these other 78 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: first that are surround that single first. So that was 79 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: another one of them. But it was also Harriet E. 80 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: Wilson's novel and it was called Our Nig And we'll 81 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: talk about that obviously a lot in today's episode. But 82 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: it was possibly the first novel by a person of 83 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: African descent in all of North America. And we'll get 84 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: to this later on as well. Teaser teaser, but there 85 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: was another woman in Brazil who was of African descent 86 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: who also published a novel and at the same time. 87 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: Their two names are mentioned together a lot of the time, 88 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:58,559 Speaker 1: like a little bonus, just just flight sliding and really 89 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: not not too much shout out, just a shout out, 90 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,239 Speaker 1: I love it. Again. Context so important with these first 91 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: very glad that that you bring that when you bring 92 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: you do we love it. So there's not a lot 93 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: of information out there on Herritt E. Wilson, and we'll 94 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: talk about the discovery process of the book because for 95 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: a long time, it wasn't known she wasn't known about 96 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: It wasn't known that she was a black woman, it 97 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: wasn't known that she was the author of this book. Um. 98 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: And it's in our very recent history that we figured 99 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 1: all this out. We I say, we like I figured 100 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: anything out. When I said we, I say, other people 101 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 1: who are like professionals and stuff and do history and 102 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: scholarship and all those fancy things. Um. But yeah, so 103 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: a lot of what we do know about her, though, 104 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: is through the things that those historians and scholars have 105 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 1: collected about her life, but those things are still very 106 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: few and far between, and a lot of what has 107 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: been pulled out of it has been kind of like 108 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: this corroboration between what happened in the novel, which is 109 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: a him to be Idle biographical, and then what happened 110 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: according to records that are kept that have been kept 111 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: of Harriett E. Wilson. But and and so she was 112 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: somebody that has been on my list for a long 113 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: time who I wanted to talk about, obviously because I'm 114 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: interested in literary things. And I was in this space 115 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: where I was just thinking, what am I going to 116 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: talk about about her? Because there isn't so much known 117 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: about her life, and the stuff that we say did 118 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: happen may not be the case. We're just deducing those 119 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: things from the information that we do have. But then 120 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: I thought about it, and I was like, well, she's 121 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: probably the person I need to talk about the most 122 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: because that's going to happen so frequently. It's like, well, 123 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: we don't know anything about There was already so much 124 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: of a span where her book wasn't talked about at 125 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: all because we didn't know who wrote it, and she 126 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: wasn't giving credit for it, and she wasn't giving credit 127 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: for it. And so now for me to say, oh, 128 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: because there's not that much information about her, I don't 129 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: know if this can fill a whole amount of time. 130 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: It's just just so to disservice to her legacy, to 131 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: her honor, and to everybody who cares about literary history 132 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: and women's history and just learning that, Hey, you know, 133 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: it's okay for us to speak about it's good for 134 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: us to discuss these people who have been such a 135 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: integral part of the history. But also there isn't that 136 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: much known about them, and that's okay, right, Yeah, I 137 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: completely agree. And I struggled with that for a while 138 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: because there there would be topics I want to talk 139 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: about and I just want to read everything about them, 140 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: and it would be so hard to find credible information. 141 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: But I didn't want that to stop as from talking 142 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: about those things. And you can. I think there's a 143 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: conversation to be had and it's worth having around why 144 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: that information isn't there, right, Yes, Um, there's a huge conversation, 145 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: especially when it comes to how much was not documented 146 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: and It's also it's interesting to think about that kind 147 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: of documentation and then what Harriet Evilson was actually talking 148 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: about in her books. She was talking about life as 149 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: a free black person pre Civil War, and so just 150 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: how much of her in her actual life documentation didn't happen. 151 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: But in thinking about the idea of slavery, the institution 152 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: of slavery, and how many families weren't documented or were 153 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: documented incorrectly, and what labels were given to people like Mulatto. 154 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: Um So, I just think it's interesting to think about 155 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: how we today have gathered and think about her documentation 156 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 1: and then what she was actually talking about in her 157 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: novel Our nig Rights, and it's kind of astounding. I 158 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: mean that it's recent, as you said, recent discovery, so 159 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: history you never know, let you find um So, yeah, 160 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: I'm excited. The point how many these happily lost? Like, 161 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: how many things do we not know with this small 162 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: discovery had this not been a coincidental moment of oh oh, 163 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: and then putting of course, putting all that hard work 164 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: to putting it together. At the same time, look at 165 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: what we probably have missed. You gotta you have to 166 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: wonder what vast amounts of conversations and then all of 167 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: kind of history, what was documented what wasn't because also 168 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 1: at that point in time, education was not offered to 169 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: everyone as we know, and equality was far from happening 170 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: for anybody except for white men. Was just be really honest, 171 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: it's kind of familiar, but not that's extreme and talking 172 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 1: about also her separation, and I know you're going to 173 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: go into it. I'm excited about it, but the difference 174 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: between the South and the North at that point in 175 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: time is also kind of like it wasn't as great 176 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: as you think. Oh yeah, I think that that's a 177 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: myth that's been busted a lot in recent history for 178 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: a lot of people. At least, I know that my 179 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: education coming up, when it came to us history was 180 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: very uh limited and didn't talk about a lot of 181 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: things or provide context for a lot of things that 182 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: was related to black life and in America, uh and 183 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: in the field that we are in media and the 184 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: things that we think about, um as feminists, it's just 185 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: we understand living in the South, you know, there's nothing, 186 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: there's nothing that beats experience. That's something I've been thinking 187 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: about a lot lately. Um, So we actually live in 188 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: the place that so many other people look at from 189 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:20,599 Speaker 1: the outside and say, this is how it is, this 190 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: this land of like you know, all the misconceptions about 191 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 1: the South and also accurate perceptions of the South, but 192 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: that have more nuanced And that's so in the case 193 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: of what Harriet E. Wilson touches on in her book. 194 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,719 Speaker 1: And we're about to go through the whole story. But yes, 195 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: that's a great point to bring up in the beginning, 196 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 1: because just to lay the groundwork for this conversation is that, sure, 197 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: there's a North and there's a South in terms of 198 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: the geographical boundaries that we create have literally artificially created, 199 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: but there is some like obviously artificial boundaries but contextually 200 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: still actual boundaries between the North and the South because 201 00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: of the way that the colonies were divided in the 202 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: way that you know, civil war YadA YadA, YadA. Um. 203 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: This is not that kind of lesson today. But the 204 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: point of this is to say that it wasn't a 205 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: clear definition between these people in the South fought for 206 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: this for this reason, um, and the South was holy 207 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: and completely racist, in the North was holy and completely 208 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: not racist. Like that's not how it was white abolitionists 209 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 1: in the North. Um. If we go back to the 210 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: days of when you know, there was the back to 211 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: Africa movement. The reasons, the different reasons that people had 212 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: for wanting black people to go back to Africa was 213 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: not just for them to have a better life. A 214 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: lot of the people who wanted free black people to 215 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: go back to Africa, to go to Liberia, to go 216 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: over there, to the continent of Africa was because they 217 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: didn't want them in. They didn't want them in the 218 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: u A. And so they're just nuance like so, and 219 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: that's one of the big things about her book Our 220 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: nig and how it was different from so many other 221 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: stories that were being told at the time of slave. Yeah, 222 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: so let's get in. We've done a lot of talking 223 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: about like what it's about, but I feel like I 224 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: need to give the actual story. There's a lot of 225 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: build up. You're expecting this to be so amazing, and 226 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: trust me, it's amazing in the sense that it's literary history. 227 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: But it's not like the greatest, the most happy story, 228 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: right all right, So there we go. Our nigg is 229 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: the name of the book in the full title is 230 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: Our nig Or Sketches from the Life of a free 231 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: Black in a two story white house North, showing that 232 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: slavery shadows fall even there. And that's my favorite part 233 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: of the title, showing that slavery shadows fall even there, 234 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: because that shows that awareness that she had of these 235 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: misconceptions about the North, like how people thought that in shadows, 236 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: just like that's a great word, um, how people thought 237 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: that that was a place that wasn't affected by the 238 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: brutal atrocity of everything, the whole history of enslavement and 239 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: racism in the United States. So the book is accepted 240 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: as being autobiographical, like I said earlier, but it's also 241 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: worked within the space of the sentimental novel, which was 242 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: a thing at the time. And then it also references 243 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: the conventions of the nineteenth century slave narrative, which was 244 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: also a thing that happened a lot. And it's been 245 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: argued also that the text is often satirical. So I've 246 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: seen people read about you know how it's it is autobiographical, 247 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: But we must recognize, and I think this is a 248 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: great point to bring up. We must recognize Harriett Evilson's 249 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: power as a storyteller, that she wasn't just a person 250 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: who was writing it was just my life and I'm 251 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: just gonna put on the page. Like she was actually 252 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: thinking about semantics, that what the context of things that 253 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: she was talking about, the story she was trying to tell, 254 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: how she was telling it in artistic way. You know, 255 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: she was also a storyteller. She wasn't just like I'm 256 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: putting my life on the page. So the book was 257 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: published on September eighteen fifty nine. And in the preface, 258 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: there's a very short preface in the beginning of the book, 259 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: Wilson says, and it's just credited as H. E. W 260 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: in this part, but this is what she says or writes, 261 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: Deserted by kindred, disabled by failing health, I am forced 262 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: to some experiment which shall aid me in maintaining myself 263 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: and child without extinguishing this feeble life. And so she 264 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: goes on to say, I have purposely omitted what would 265 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: most provoke shame in our good anti slavery friends at home. 266 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: And she goes on to ask her quote colored brethren 267 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: to support her and purchase her book so she could 268 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: support her child. And we will see the same story 269 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: in the text of the novel itself. Um, And so 270 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: that was kind of a call to action or a 271 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: call for help on her part, saying, I need you 272 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: to read this book. I need all the people who 273 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: support me and defend me. I'm gonna censor myself essentially 274 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: as what she was saying in some in some aspects, 275 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: but I need y'all to support me so that I 276 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: can help much child. Right, And that is so that 277 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: is a way to begin a book, right, yeah, right, 278 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: oh yeah, I love to start with the call to 279 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: action right away. Hey, put it right up front. And 280 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: I'm just in here thinking and I go through this 281 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: conversation in my head so much like what am I 282 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: creating my work for? Like what am I writing for? 283 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: And I like struggle with this so much, and then 284 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: I see something like this and like she was doing 285 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: it so she could have her child, like so she 286 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: could take care of her, tell them, like what everything 287 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: that I'm doing just like it doesn't matter, but I 288 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: know it's not true, but like I do like seeing 289 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: stuff like this. It just helps me put into perspective 290 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: like why I am involved in the artistry that I 291 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: am involved in, and the struggles and just how interesting 292 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: it is that she was creating art but she was 293 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: also it was also utility. It was art in utility. 294 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: At the same time, it was very honest, and that's 295 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: what makes it like heartbreakingly beautiful. It's just very honest, 296 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: like this is why I'm doing this. Not only am 297 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: I going to say this and I'm going to leave 298 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: some of the bad parts out because it's not gonna 299 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: be sellable. She knew that if I don't leave some 300 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: of you know, if I don't sensor myself a little 301 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: bit as well as please understand, I'm doing this out 302 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: of need, like it's kind of almost like, hey, this 303 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: is not just for my own fame, this is this 304 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: is there's a reason for this. Well, it's like she 305 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: was almost like her own PR person. She did her 306 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: own media training for herself, and she was like, I 307 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: know what I need to say to make sure that 308 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: I get people on my side, right, and I know 309 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: what I don't need to say, So I'm gonna not 310 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: say those things that I am gonna say those things, 311 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna do what I can to see if 312 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: I can get the support that I need from people 313 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: who I don't know. Unfortunately, that did not happen. Uh 314 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: So we'll get to that when we get to the 315 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: story of her life. We have some more of our conversation, 316 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: but first we have a quick break for word from 317 00:16:43,800 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: our sponsor, and we're back, Thank you sponsor. Continuing the 318 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: actual story of itself, of our nig It's about the 319 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: mistreatment of a quote mulatto woman um mixed named Alfredo 320 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: a k a. Fredo in New England just before the 321 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,959 Speaker 1: Civil War, and her mother in the story was Mag Smith, 322 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: who was a lower class white woman. And Mag married 323 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,959 Speaker 1: a black man named Jim, who was part owner of 324 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: a cold delivery business, and the two of them have 325 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: two daughters together, and the older daughters, Fredo and Jim 326 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: dies a few years after the two of them are married. 327 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: Jim and Meg were married, so soon Mag marries another 328 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: black man and she abandons her children. And at that 329 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: point the Belmonts, which were a family of white middle 330 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: class farmers in Boston, take Alfredo in but they make 331 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: her work as this kind of indentured servant, and they 332 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: call her our nig they call her olur nig um. 333 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: And so Miss Belmont and her daughter and Mary are 334 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: basically the like they abuse Fredo and just like terrible 335 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: people Um physically and psychologically abusive, and her living conditions 336 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: are unhealthy, Fredo's are, and the rest of the family 337 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: is complicit because they're basically they basically sit back and 338 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: say nothing, like they give her a little bit of 339 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 1: egging on, and they're supportive in a way, but they 340 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: don't actually do anything to help fredo situation. Right, one day, 341 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: Ms Belmont hits Fredo on the head for not bringing 342 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: wood back quickly enough, and so Fredo stands up for 343 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: herself and refuses to be beaten again. And she does 344 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: get a little bit of encouragement in that way from 345 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,479 Speaker 1: the family who who tells her like, hey, you can 346 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: set up for yourself. Um, but there's only something y'all 347 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: know a lot about stories. There's only so much you 348 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: can like, so much you can give to the person 349 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: who's like, hey, you can stand up for yourself as like, well, 350 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: Fredo actually has to take the action of standing up 351 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: for herself. So I'm not really gonna I mean, right, 352 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: you've seen so much abuse happened already, right Anyway, over 353 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: the next year of her servitude, Fredo is not threatened 354 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: again with that intensity of violence, and her servitude ends 355 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: when she's eighteen. So just think about how young she 356 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: was when all this is happening. She was a child 357 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: when she was abandoned, was still a child when she 358 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: was a servant, and was still a child when she 359 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: was being abused. And just imagine the amount of even 360 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: in this fictional tale, you know, thinking of that, it 361 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: is also autobiographical, given Teke, we don't know how exactly 362 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 1: how much is taken and given, but just that happens 363 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: so young, like she's not You're still not finished developing. 364 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 1: This was your formative years. It's when you're like developing 365 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:51,959 Speaker 1: life viewpoints and understandings of how the world works. And 366 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: she left at that point when she had basically nothing, 367 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: and she was in very poor health, and and a 368 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: Christian woman named Mrs Moore takes her in and teaches 369 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: her how to make straw hats, and so she begins 370 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,679 Speaker 1: supporting herself. Fredo does with that skill. But soon a 371 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: guy walks into her life, a black man named Samuel, 372 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: and they get married and he makes a living giving 373 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: He makes a living giving speeches about his life of 374 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: enslavement that didn't happen, right, He's never been to the South, 375 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 1: and he does this de guard to the support of abolitionists. 376 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: So I mean, get it how you live. I guess 377 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 1: God play that game. Yeah, the marriage wasn't a good 378 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: one and Fredo ended up giving birth to a son 379 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: at a poor house, and Samuel shows up in her 380 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: life and leaves again, and eventually Fredo finds out that 381 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 1: Samuel has died. So Fredo is in poor health, is 382 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: unable to support her child on her own, so she 383 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: has to put her child in foster care. She starts 384 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: writing her story in story, hoping that the story is 385 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: successful enough to make her money to take care of 386 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: her child. Um, so we see the parallel already that's 387 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: already been established, and that's basically how the story ends. 388 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: Her appeal to people saying, hey help me. There's some 389 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: symmetry there, Yes, a lot of symmetry, at least I 390 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: don't wanna this kind of I'm trying to think the oraborous, 391 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: like the snake eating the tail like because a lot 392 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: of Yes, a lot of symmetry, but it's like a 393 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 1: lot of that symmetry was pulled from the story itself 394 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: to there there are some facts that were about to 395 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,199 Speaker 1: dig into our some inferences that we're about to dig 396 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: into from that have been learned and collected by scholars 397 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: about her actual life. So our net itself was unlike 398 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: other slavery era stories because it wasn't about Southern slaveholders 399 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: just being the like villains of the story and stead 400 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: it was about northerners who were abolitionists who were committing atrocities. 401 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: And it went mostly unnoticed after it was released, and 402 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: it took over a hundred years for it to come 403 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: back into the public sphere and to our recognition. But 404 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: you know, there are some ideas about why that may 405 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: have happened. That could be because it touched on polarizing 406 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: things like interracial marriage. It could be because it depicted 407 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: the racism of northern white folks, and it also could 408 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: be because people thought that Wilson was white before we 409 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 1: found out that who she was. And yeah, it's hard 410 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: to tell the extent to which the book was based 411 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: on her life and what she made up um, but 412 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: it is widely considered to be largely out of biographical. 413 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: So onto Wilson's life itself. Now that we've covered what 414 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: the story is about and brought strokes, so a lot 415 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 1: of things have evolved retired with us understanding more about 416 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: her life and gathering more documents. Obviously, as these things work. 417 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: She was born Harriet E. Adams in Milford, New Hampshire, 418 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: in March of eight and she was possibly born to 419 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: a black man named Joshua Green and a whitewasher woman 420 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: named Margaret, and her nickname was Hattie. After her father 421 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: died and her mother abandoned her parala with the story, 422 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 1: when she was a child, she left. She was left 423 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: to become an indentured servant with Neamah Hayward and the 424 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: Hayward family. His wife was Rebecca Hutchinson, and they came 425 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: from uh pretty well off family with abolitionists in it. 426 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: She Harriet left the Haywards when she was eighteen. Parallel 427 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: with the story, she was in poor health at that 428 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: time and she started working for other white families, and 429 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: one woman taught her hat making skills. And in eighteen 430 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: fifty one she married a lecturer named Thomas Wilson, who 431 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: pretended it he was enslaved, what escaped and in his lectures, 432 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 1: in his speeches he decry the horrors of slavery, but 433 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: he told Harriet that hey, I was never enslaved. Huh. 434 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: They had a son, George Mason Wilson, who was born 435 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: in eighteen fifty two. He was born on a poor 436 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: farm in an unhealthy environment. Um. But not long after that, 437 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: Thomas left the family and Harriet was still ill and impoverished, 438 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: and so she left her son with white foster parents 439 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: and wrote to earn money, and Thomas Wilson soon died 440 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: at sea. He went off to see and Harriet at 441 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 1: that point likely travels around Massachusetts and New Hampshire working 442 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: as a seamstress, a servant, or selling hair products. So 443 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: she did have hair product line when she came out 444 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: with and she started writing Our Nig for the same reasons, 445 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 1: you know. She copyrighted Our Nig in August of eighteen 446 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: fifty nine and it was published by George C. Rand 447 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: and Avery in Boston the next month. So Harriet's son 448 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: died of fever less than six months after Our nick 449 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: was released, when he was only seven years old. And 450 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,880 Speaker 1: that was the thing that happened, Like people died from 451 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: fever back then, and we already talked about the kind 452 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: of conditions, you know, they weren't living in the greatest conditions. 453 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, in the early eighteen sixties, she likely worked 454 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: as a servant for some time and she became involved 455 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: with the spiritualist movement, which if you're not familiar with 456 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 1: the spiritualist movement. UM. And this is not Frannie, because 457 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: I know Annie knows all about spiritualist movement. I don't 458 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: know about you, Samantha, but I know I know anything 459 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: to horror things. So here you are too, though not 460 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 1: on this level, but lay up there. I just want 461 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: to say that any spiritualist listening, I don't always a 462 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: horror Oh yeah, I'm just thinking like it comes ups 463 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: and all those types of things. It's in the realm 464 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: of the things that you like, are paying attention to. Yes, 465 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: that is absolutely a fair assessment because the movement was 466 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 1: based on this belief that there were spirits of the 467 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 1: dead and that people could communicate with spirits of the dead, 468 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: and mediums were often the people who could communicate with 469 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: spirits of the dead. Um. I know we've seen the 470 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 1: black and white photos of people around the table and 471 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: heard about all the like fake things that happened the people. Yeah, 472 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: that was the spiritualist movement. Um and she Harriet herself 473 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: was described as a medium in contemporary documents. She gave lectures, 474 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: sometimes entranced in those lectures in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, 475 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:51,719 Speaker 1: and Connecticut, and that involvement in spiritualism continued for years 476 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: and years. For instance, she speaks at the fourth annual 477 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: Spiritualist Camp Meeting in Massachusetts. At one point she was 478 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: also involved in the formation of children's Progressive lyceums, which 479 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: were essentially the Spiritualist version of Sunday Schools for children 480 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: Oh Wow. And throughout the eighteen seventies into the nineties 481 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: she's listed as a trance reader and a lecturer and 482 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: worked as a housekeeper at some point during that time. 483 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: In eighteen seventies, she married John Gallatin Robinson in Boston. 484 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: So in nineteen hundreds she is described as a nurse 485 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: at the home of the Cobb family in Quincy, Massachusetts, 486 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 1: and that year. That same year, she dies in the 487 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: hospital in Quincy, and she died of what was listed 488 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: as in a mission, which basically means exhaustion from lack 489 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: of nourishment, and she was buried in the Cobb family plot. 490 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: So that's not everything that we've deduced about her story 491 00:27:54,359 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: from documents and the novel, but that is a large overview. 492 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: You of like her her story and honestly a lot 493 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: of what we know. So that is, Yeah, that's it. 494 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: But the other part of this larger story that her 495 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: story is contained in is the disc or rediscovery or 496 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: uncovering or recovering or whatever you want to call it 497 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: of the novel itself. Our Nig itself was thought to 498 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: be the work of a white author. But there was 499 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: the book that people thought was the first novel by 500 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 1: an African American woman before we found out about our 501 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: Nick was Iola Leroy or Shadows Uplifted, and that was 502 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: by Francis Ellen Watkins Harper, and that was released in 503 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: two which was much later than you know, we figured 504 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: out now Our Nick was written in the early nineteen eighties. 505 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: Historian and critic Henry Lewis Gates Jr. Which I'm sure 506 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: a lot of people are familiar with because he has 507 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: like very public facing historian and like does a lot 508 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: of research on history people, families, histories and lineages and 509 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: stuff like that. And he found a copy of it 510 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: in a bookstore, and he found evidence that the author 511 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: of the book was a black woman who lived in Milford, 512 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: New Hampshire before the Civil War. And so we're like, oh, 513 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: you know, this is upending things that we thought we 514 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: knew about this literary history and who was a part 515 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: of it, and so he and his colleagues, UM many people. 516 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: Gates wasn't the only one to start uncovering stuff about her. 517 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: And there was a scholar named Barbara A White who 518 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: also looked into community records UM in Milford to learn 519 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: more about Wilson's life. Those were publishing records. That was 520 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: since his information and the depth certificate listed her son 521 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: as black, and that helped confirm that his mother, Harriet, 522 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: was a black woman and her authorship of the book itself. 523 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: And so N three Gates published a version of Our 524 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: nick and that's kind of when it came back into 525 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: our site. So it came back into part of the 526 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: conversation we were having about who was part of the 527 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: early history of black authorship in the United States and 528 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: in America's um. Gates has called the book a complex 529 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: response to Uncle Tom's Cabin, and novelist and poet Alice 530 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: Walker has said of the discovery quote, I set up 531 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: most of the night reading and pondering the enormous significance 532 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: of Harriet Wilson's novel. Our nig it is is if 533 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: we've just discovered phyllis Wheatley or Langston Hughes, who are 534 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: obviously other big names in the history of poetry and 535 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: the literary tradition in the US. And ever since then, 536 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: you know, she's it's been something a lot more UM 537 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: scholarship and conversation has been around and even in April 538 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: of two thousand three, the Harriet Wilson the Project was 539 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: formed in Milford, New Hampshire, which is a resource that 540 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: you can go to to, you know, learn what else 541 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: is out there about her, and it was formed to 542 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: raise awareness about her life and about her work and 543 00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: then organized local conversations and discussions of Wilson's work, and 544 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: they commissioned the creation of a memorial statue to her. So, yeah, 545 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: that is a lot of what we know about her life, 546 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: and that is a little bit about the context around 547 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: the uncovering of the book and the legacy of that 548 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 1: is just how first of all, we're always learning more 549 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: about who did what right. So before that we thought 550 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: that a black woman didn't publish something in English that 551 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: is important part of this um in English in the 552 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: US before two I think it was, and that's not 553 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: the case. And it's just like that kind of information 554 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: is consistently coming out and we were just learning about 555 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: that in the early nineteen eighties. Leaves for us to 556 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: think about what else is uncovered. And not only that, 557 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: her work was also just so unlike other stories that 558 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: were being told in that realm at the time, and 559 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: was pretty bold and meaningful. I think it's interesting that 560 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: it was meaningful to her life like so deeply because 561 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: it was connected to financial hardship and her own personal 562 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: hardship and something that she needed to do for herself. Um, 563 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: I can only imagine what her thought process was. I 564 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: can't I'm I'm not a spiritualist, so right, I cannot 565 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,959 Speaker 1: communicate with the debt, but I can only imagine that, like, 566 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: she really needed to get this story down on paper, 567 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: even there was some other sort of purpose behind it 568 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: beyond just needing to take care of her son, which 569 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: was a big deal, but it was she was telling 570 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: a story that not many other people as we know 571 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: it today, we're telling it away. She was framing it 572 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: in a way that was original, like saying, hey, people 573 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: in the North do this too, and is more powerful 574 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 1: because because it was her story and told through a 575 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: vehicle of fictional like artistry. So it's a really interesting 576 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: legacy to me. Yeah, that is the kind of intersection 577 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: there of. I know a lot of people when they 578 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 1: think of artists, they think of the traditional starving artists 579 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: who moved to l a and you know, does that 580 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: all that thing? But there is sometimes I think some 581 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: people just feel like this need I have to share 582 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 1: this story. It's important, and also I have a financial need, 583 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: and I have like a child, and all those things 584 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: coming together to give it just just like a very 585 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: important story that needed to be told. And all of 586 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: these things happened to coincide with that and make it happen. Yeah, 587 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: it does feel like a conspiring doesn't it the best 588 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: kind of conspiring, Like all these things conspire to have gates. Fine, 589 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: didn't bring it back into our awareness and a long time, 590 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: like a hundred fifty years or that. That's a long time. 591 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 1: But at the same time, it's not too long because 592 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: it happened. You know, we got we got the opportunity 593 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: to learn about her life because it took so long, 594 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: because you know, now we're sitting here and we're able 595 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: to talk about it because it was that story of 596 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: her life and of her creation of the work was 597 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: able to come back to our awareness. So it's definitely 598 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: a good thing. So we do have a little bit 599 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 1: more for you, but we're going to pause for one 600 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: more quick break for a word from responsor, and we're back. 601 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: I will bring up to which a tease earlier um 602 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: the other person who published a novel around the same time, 603 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: and her name was Maria Feermina deuce Has and she 604 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,479 Speaker 1: was a brazz billion woman of African descent. She wrote 605 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: the first novel by a Brazilian woman and the name 606 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: of that novel was Ursula. It depicted life under slavery 607 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,919 Speaker 1: in Brazil and it was also published like our nig 608 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 1: in eighteen fifty nine, and that work maybe the first 609 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: non autobiographical work of narrative fiction by a woman of 610 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: African descent in the America's super interesting because obviously this 611 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 1: is about survival for her. None of this necessarily like, yes, 612 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: she has an outlet, and obviously she was very creative. 613 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: And when you go from being just servitude to she 614 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: was she was a dressmaker that I read that at 615 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,240 Speaker 1: one point I think she might have been address maker 616 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 1: and then she was okay, so she was a dressmaker 617 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,280 Speaker 1: to actually writing a book to becoming a medium slash 618 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: a spiritualist who taught children, and it was said that 619 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: she was teaching white children at that point in time, 620 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: which seemed to be significant. At that point, she is 621 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: a true survivor in the most creative ways that you 622 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: could think about, that those are not things I would 623 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: have put together in one individual, you know what I mean. 624 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: And then also knowing that she wrote this book on 625 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 1: a scale of Okay, this is my story, I can't 626 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 1: say too loudly because people not might not respect if 627 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: they are too tragic, even though it's fairly tragic in 628 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 1: the book, and then talking about the fact that also 629 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: in her whole life there are actual abolitionists around her 630 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: if I read that correctly, And she's like, yeah, y'all 631 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: do it all these things to free the slaves. That's 632 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 1: great and all, but I'm in here suffering and no 633 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,879 Speaker 1: one really cares what's happening. I mean, yeah, it's it's 634 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: for perspective. It's like there are a lot of different 635 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: types of oppression, right um. And yeah, So while it's 636 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 1: just really interesting that she was pointing out how awful 637 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: it was and to be in the North at that time, 638 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,280 Speaker 1: it's like that that there was no clear division of 639 00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: just because black people were in the North and they 640 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: were free, doesn't mean that were free from oppression and 641 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: so put simply and yeah, I just I agree with you. 642 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: Like her life, she was very resourceful, obviously very uh 643 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: persistent because there was a lot of hardship in her 644 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: life but also her life. And I try to do 645 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 1: this a lot when I think back about, especially about 646 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: black people or oppressed people's in general's lives, and when 647 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 1: I talk about them, not talking about them solely in 648 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 1: the way it was like their oppression or hardship defined 649 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,959 Speaker 1: their stories, but it was a part of her story. 650 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: That's a big part of her story. That was that 651 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: really determined a lot of the ways in which she 652 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: had to move right, which is like writing his book. Um. 653 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: But at the same time, it's clear that she was 654 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: still able to have a love for life, she was 655 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 1: still able to participate in the spiritualist movement because it 656 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 1: probably wasn't something that was well, like, it wasn't a 657 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: thing she was she lived for a while, which is great, 658 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: but like it was something that was clearly fulfilling for 659 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: her spiritually, um and emotional ali beyond just like being 660 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,839 Speaker 1: a financial boone to Harlefe, So I do. I love 661 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: to think about how skilled she had to be across 662 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: so many different areas, but also how she still made 663 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: a room for self fulfillment. Right, yeah, I think that's 664 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: super important too, that we don't remember people. It's just 665 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 1: like this one dimension. This is the thing. Um. I 666 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: was very fascinated with our Spiritualist stuff. I was like, 667 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: what I was like, is this did someone just make 668 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,919 Speaker 1: this up? Because it seems so out of left fill 669 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 1: to me that I was like, wait, what we just 670 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: talked about it in our Winchester episode, because that's one 671 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: of the reasons she moved and built the houses, because 672 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: she went through her Spiritualist and she was like the 673 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: ghost of everybody that's died by the Winchester rifle. There, 674 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: man at you again, history an accident that you gave 675 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 1: to that. I'm sorry, spiritual but it was such a 676 00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: beautiful cinema and it really because she's talking about doing 677 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: creating candles at all this for the children, and she 678 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,959 Speaker 1: was doing it for the children. I'm like, oh huh wow, Okay, 679 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: I wonder what the actually looks like in that nineteenth 680 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: century To sit down and the thing I'm gonna teach 681 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:15,839 Speaker 1: you about spiritualism in communicating with the dead, which, by 682 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: the way, yes, that is the beginning of a lot 683 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: of horror movies. I also want to say, it's really 684 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: funny to me, Annie, how careful you are of offending 685 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: the spiritualists, because I don't really know. I mean, I 686 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: don't really know how many spiritualists are listening to this 687 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 1: episode right now. Everybody they could be listening from the 688 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: past will say they claim they claim her real hard 689 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,320 Speaker 1: like I found some information on the sites, and they're 690 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,439 Speaker 1: claiming they love what she did, they had, they see 691 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,879 Speaker 1: her as a great part of their history at all. Yeah, maybe, yeah, 692 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: I just I find it funny because and he's definitely like, 693 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,839 Speaker 1: I don't want them coming after I do. I will 694 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: say that this is not a value judgment on what 695 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:55,839 Speaker 1: she did or what I thought. It's a spiritualist, if 696 00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 1: you know me personally, very into history, also very into 697 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:05,799 Speaker 1: um so usually into woo. So there's a room for 698 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 1: all of those things. And we're not judging anybody, now, 699 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: I kind of fascinating. Yeah, we're not judging. We're not 700 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 1: judging the lovely Harriet E. Wilson for participating in those things. 701 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: Is just a part of our story that must be told, 702 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 1: and it's interesting part of our story. I think it's 703 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 1: a lovely part. Yeah. Then I think we forget at 704 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,879 Speaker 1: that time in spiritualism was really being after the Civil 705 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,320 Speaker 1: War as well, because so many people died and people 706 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,839 Speaker 1: want to find some kind of closure with their loved ones. 707 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 1: And I think we just forget that with all of 708 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: our kind of modern technology and understanding and figuring out 709 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: how things work. How frightening it must have been. I 710 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: often think about this with disease, when you just didn't 711 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 1: know what was causing things and you were trying to like, okay, 712 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: maybe it's that, maybe this thing and so it is. 713 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: Again context always important. Yeah, I guess I never really 714 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 1: put those two things together um that time frame, to 715 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: be honest, because I'm like historically, I'm just looking at 716 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: things a very historically and moving on and you see 717 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: events and move on. But yeah, I guess that's kind 718 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: of what happens. That makes sense because you need an answer, 719 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 1: you need to know why, what was the purpose. But 720 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: at the same time, yeah, because it's also dramatized for 721 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: us now movie goers and and all of that. Yeah, 722 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 1: that's kind of like you do put it on a 723 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,799 Speaker 1: separate realm of oh this is in movies and this 724 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 1: isn't this so yeah, to see it in context to 725 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,840 Speaker 1: actual person, I'm like, oh wow, oh wow, Okay, that's cool, 726 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,000 Speaker 1: like that's how this happened. Like I can look at 727 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: a specific instance understand how a person can move get 728 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: to that point. But yeah, and heard the exception of 729 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 1: that book. We're really really well written, like her dialogue. 730 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: There's the only I didn't. I did not read the book. 731 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: I'm not going to take claim to that, but I 732 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: definitely read parts of it, and I'm like, wow, she did. 733 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 1: She really put into a lot of thought of or 734 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: was able. She was just talented period, because I'm not 735 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: really good at dialogue in any general writing, but like 736 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: to have be able to read that and being like, yeah, 737 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: I can absolutely see that moment. She did a fantastic job. Yeah, 738 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,279 Speaker 1: really good at visualizing, creating images for people to try 739 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,759 Speaker 1: to understand and empathize, because I have to imagine that 740 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 1: empathy was a big part of this iss. She was 741 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: trying to pull out of people because she wanted people 742 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 1: to help her. She wanted people to read the book 743 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: in such an urgent way. She wanted urgent reason right 744 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: and to write that book where she like the time 745 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,799 Speaker 1: in place she existed. Oh yeah, I'm like, well, I 746 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:29,520 Speaker 1: need a writing schedule. I'm going to get up at 747 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,040 Speaker 1: five thirty in the morning every day. She's like, I'm 748 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: working this, I'm going here, I'm doing this. I'm also 749 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,399 Speaker 1: nod in the greatest health and I'm like writing mad 750 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 1: book the whole time. And I'm like, I think I'll 751 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,759 Speaker 1: just sleep and stay in bed until six thirties a day, 752 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,760 Speaker 1: well with all the obstacles of that time too, six 753 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:53,799 Speaker 1: thirty because that makes me feel bad. Okay, we know 754 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 1: to talk about that, To talk about that, it's like, wait, 755 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,080 Speaker 1: what's happen? And I do think, um, one thing I 756 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: wanted to mention before we end. I do think like 757 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 1: the fact that it was rediscovered and uncovered is exciting 758 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: in some ways, in some ways sad in other ways, 759 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,799 Speaker 1: is what I'm meaning to say. But we talked before 760 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,760 Speaker 1: about Wikipedia and how it's only I think sevent women, 761 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,880 Speaker 1: and that's that's like, no way is that true. No 762 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,280 Speaker 1: way is that the case that only seven being percent 763 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,840 Speaker 1: of Wikipedia entries should be women of history? So I 764 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 1: just a reminder that we don't know everything. There's a 765 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: lot of things that have been lost, but my there's 766 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 1: hope for them to be recovered. So I find that exciting. 767 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: And it can be you, it can be you anybody. Yes, yes, 768 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,240 Speaker 1: and um, I'm a big proponent of those Edita thons 769 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,759 Speaker 1: with Wikipedia and specific um and if you live in 770 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 1: most places have them, you can find a place that 771 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:51,880 Speaker 1: does them. If that's something you're interested in but are 772 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:56,280 Speaker 1: a little tentative to do you by yourself, highly recommend 773 00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: get those women in Wikipedia. I love it. Yes, um, 774 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,760 Speaker 1: all right, well it was a pleasure, as always Eaves. 775 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 1: Where can the good listeners find you? Oh, all the 776 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 1: usual places. So at this day in history class, on Facebook, 777 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 1: Instagram and Twitter, and my name is Eves Jeff Coach 778 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 1: again stuff all the time. I pause as if I 779 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,920 Speaker 1: don't know, I have to think about it. Sometimes she 780 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,600 Speaker 1: was just a nunciating it was like cool cool, alright. 781 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: So I get very many different things for my name, 782 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,399 Speaker 1: So I get Jeff Coat sometimes and you can also 783 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,319 Speaker 1: find me personally on Twitter at Eve Jeff Coat. Yeah, 784 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 1: and that's it. Yeah, thank you, Yeah, and definitely go 785 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 1: check check all that stuff out. It's awesome. And if 786 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,880 Speaker 1: you want to contact us, you can email us at 787 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,799 Speaker 1: Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You 788 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,480 Speaker 1: can also find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast 789 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: and on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks 790 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 1: it's always to our super producer and Howard, and thanks 791 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,400 Speaker 1: to you for listening Stuff mom Never Told You. He's 792 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,040 Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, 793 00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,799 Speaker 1: visit iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 794 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:10,720 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.