1
00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,400
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:07,280
Speaker 2: Zarn Elizabeth, how are you? I'm doing well? How about

3
00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:07,840
Speaker 2: you good?

4
00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:08,719
Speaker 3: How's your heart?

5
00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,280
Speaker 4: If you stop asking me? Never asked about my liver?

6
00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:15,239
Speaker 4: My kidneys? I rely on them far more. How my

7
00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,239
Speaker 4: spleen's good? I burst it once and it's good.

8
00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,639
Speaker 3: Back up, nice, nice? Ask about my heart? My heart

9
00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:22,040
Speaker 3: is full?

10
00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:22,840
Speaker 2: How's your hour?

11
00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,800
Speaker 3: Your lungs full of it? My lungs you're okay?

12
00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:27,000
Speaker 2: How's your spastic colon?

13
00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:29,840
Speaker 5: This right?

14
00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,440
Speaker 2: Don't use the descriptor? Does that not help? I'm trying

15
00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:34,760
Speaker 2: to be more personal explosive.

16
00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,760
Speaker 3: I don't have explosive diarrhea, guys, and my colon is

17
00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,240
Speaker 3: not spastic? Okay, everybody?

18
00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:43,280
Speaker 2: Sorry, I don't know. I don't know how I got

19
00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:43,920
Speaker 2: that turned.

20
00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:45,760
Speaker 3: Do you know what's ridiculous?

21
00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:46,920
Speaker 2: I do? Elizabeth?

22
00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,360
Speaker 4: Nicholas Cage, my man Nick Cage was once stalked to

23
00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:57,720
Speaker 4: buy a mimes right, according to him, when he was

24
00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,600
Speaker 4: making bad to the lieutenant. He gave some press interviews

25
00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,040
Speaker 4: and uh, he said, and I quote, I guess it

26
00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,040
Speaker 4: would fall into the stalker category more or less, I

27
00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,200
Speaker 4: was being stalked by a mime silent, but maybe deadly.

28
00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,559
Speaker 4: Somehow this mine would appear on the set of Bringing

29
00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,480
Speaker 4: Out the Dead start doing strange things. I have no

30
00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,880
Speaker 4: idea how it got past security. Finally the producers took

31
00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,640
Speaker 4: some action. I haven't seen the mime since, but it

32
00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:24,800
Speaker 4: was definitely unsettling.

33
00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,840
Speaker 3: Wait the producers took I hadn't seen.

34
00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,720
Speaker 2: The mime since. Did they like? Ice out the mime?

35
00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:32,880
Speaker 2: They put a hit out on a mind?

36
00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:34,280
Speaker 3: Did they killed?

37
00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:36,600
Speaker 2: Don't do anything in Hollywood, Elizabeth.

38
00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,640
Speaker 3: Really, that is ridiculous.

39
00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,000
Speaker 4: You gotta protect the stars, you know. It's if one

40
00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:43,920
Speaker 4: mime is not a price that they're unwilling to pass,

41
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,200
Speaker 4: stack a couple of minds on that pile them.

42
00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:50,720
Speaker 2: Come on, now, I like the mimes.

43
00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,320
Speaker 3: That's ridiculous, right, Do you want to know what else

44
00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:53,840
Speaker 3: is ridiculous?

45
00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:55,520
Speaker 2: I would love to know what else is ridiculous?

46
00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:20,320
Speaker 3: Misspelling a signature? Oh, this is ridiculous. Crime A podcast

47
00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:26,080
Speaker 3: about absurd and outrageous capers. Heis and cons It's always

48
00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:30,120
Speaker 3: ninety nine percent murder free and one hundred percent ridiculous. Damn,

49
00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,280
Speaker 3: this has not been an easy time, my friend.

50
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:39,200
Speaker 2: Like just hanging out with me, as we being with you, as.

51
00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,919
Speaker 3: We mentioned a few episodes back. Everyone's feeling battered and fragile.

52
00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,799
Speaker 3: The world's too much. So when I sat down, I'm

53
00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,079
Speaker 3: gonna make this about me, please. I want to figure

54
00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,600
Speaker 3: out which story telling you today and then do the

55
00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,120
Speaker 3: research for it. I knew I needed to find something escapist.

56
00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:56,600
Speaker 2: Ooh good call for.

57
00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,600
Speaker 3: Me, for you for day, for the interns, and most

58
00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,639
Speaker 3: importantly all the ships, the rude dudes. So I went

59
00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:07,120
Speaker 3: back to my wheelhouse, a genre ripe with ridiculous crimes,

60
00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,639
Speaker 3: fat cat on fat Cat Crime. Oh, my little chickadees,

61
00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:13,920
Speaker 3: I am doing an art crime today.

62
00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, let the people choose and not me.

63
00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:17,320
Speaker 3: Personally, but you know what I mean.

64
00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,079
Speaker 4: Yeah, I thought we were going to do art crime today,

65
00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:21,440
Speaker 4: live field recording.

66
00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:22,400
Speaker 3: That would be amazing.

67
00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,920
Speaker 4: We're doing the crime right now. Okay, this is a guard.

68
00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:25,720
Speaker 4: He's checking us out.

69
00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:26,680
Speaker 2: Know what he looks like.

70
00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,160
Speaker 3: I've been craving an art crime like. So here's how

71
00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,000
Speaker 3: I stumbled upon this one. I was googlings. Oh yeah,

72
00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,720
Speaker 3: I was googling and googlings on that Antiques road Show episode.

73
00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,360
Speaker 3: I was looking for dirt on the Keno Brothers. Sure,

74
00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,040
Speaker 3: and I kept trying to I'm constantly trying to turn

75
00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,720
Speaker 3: off the AI overview feature on Google.

76
00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,120
Speaker 4: I've heard that you put in like if you append

77
00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,400
Speaker 4: before twenty twenty or twenty twenty three, I don't know

78
00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,000
Speaker 4: pick one. You get no AI answers because it wasn't part.

79
00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,160
Speaker 3: Of like I've tried to turn it off and it

80
00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,640
Speaker 3: goes away. Yeah, and then because it's sentient, it comes

81
00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:03,240
Speaker 3: back again.

82
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:04,880
Speaker 4: I was the thaying if you append to your search,

83
00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,119
Speaker 4: if you add like colon before twenty twenty.

84
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,400
Speaker 3: Or but what if I need something that's recent.

85
00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:11,520
Speaker 2: I don't know how to help you.

86
00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,360
Speaker 3: I don't want the AI overview though, And then it's like,

87
00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,560
Speaker 3: I don't know. If you saw the recent episode of

88
00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,680
Speaker 3: nine one one with the cautionary tale of the AI

89
00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:21,919
Speaker 3: nine one one dispatch.

90
00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:22,200
Speaker 2: Know what happened.

91
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,400
Speaker 3: It took over and it ate the whole system that.

92
00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,000
Speaker 2: They got AI for the for the over like the

93
00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:29,159
Speaker 2: nine one one call center.

94
00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's pretty much what has happened to my Google.

95
00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,120
Speaker 2: Did they have like a whole like hal thing.

96
00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,440
Speaker 3: I'm not going to give it away. You gotta watch it.

97
00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,839
Speaker 3: It was so good. So anyway it goes away, it

98
00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,039
Speaker 3: comes back again. And when that AI bubble bursts, we

99
00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:43,840
Speaker 3: are all.

100
00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:45,039
Speaker 2: Screwed the financial one.

101
00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's going to be a delicious come up

102
00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,080
Speaker 3: and really yeah it will.

103
00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:50,960
Speaker 2: Here's in the Dark Ages, anything about it?

104
00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, when the Roman Empire fell, it was a beautiful

105
00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,719
Speaker 4: come up. It's centuries of it is in Europe.

106
00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:03,359
Speaker 3: Bright side here. Okay, so google ai overview, hold on.

107
00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,640
Speaker 3: I do have to tell you though, there's this Okay,

108
00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,559
Speaker 3: this is a funny slash scary anecdote from my mother

109
00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,880
Speaker 3: aka the Mamas. I promise you it's relevant. So she's

110
00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,159
Speaker 3: in a couple of book clubs online, like not Wine

111
00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,839
Speaker 3: Mom book clubs she operates at Higher Love she does.

112
00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,120
Speaker 3: She has one that just does Eastern canon works, so

113
00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,760
Speaker 3: she does these like deep dives into Confucius or like

114
00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,600
Speaker 3: obscure Japanese literature. And then there's one that's just all

115
00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:34,400
Speaker 3: close readings of Borges. It is so Momus. And the

116
00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,200
Speaker 3: main one is this like modified Great Books thing where

117
00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,159
Speaker 3: they read all the important works of literature from Gilgamesh

118
00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:47,279
Speaker 3: on cycle cycle. Yeah, so it was did they reread

119
00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,080
Speaker 3: your ten? Yeah? I suppose they go back around. So

120
00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,760
Speaker 3: it was in this book club that something strange happened.

121
00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,760
Speaker 3: They'd been reading John Locke and having this really lively

122
00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:02,680
Speaker 3: discussion via an email listser about its impact on Spangler's

123
00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,680
Speaker 3: decline of the West. Okay, and the conversation then naturally

124
00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,800
Speaker 3: extended to the concept of justifiable war and did Locke

125
00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,680
Speaker 3: differ from Thomas Aquinas and their beliefs on aggression and

126
00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,760
Speaker 3: justifiable war? Sure, the kind of chats we all.

127
00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,000
Speaker 2: Have one time or another in relation to Locke.

128
00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,360
Speaker 3: And I'm like, did you see nine one one? But

129
00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:28,320
Speaker 3: then somebody that nobody knew started chiming in. They went

130
00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:29,800
Speaker 3: by the name Postmaster chiming in.

131
00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:31,040
Speaker 2: This is like their chat.

132
00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:31,960
Speaker 3: On the email listserve.

133
00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, okay, sorry, this guy.

134
00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:38,640
Speaker 3: Named Postmaster and they made weird comments, asked for specific

135
00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,599
Speaker 3: members takes on the discussion, like hey Jim, so what

136
00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,560
Speaker 3: did you think of And then they referenced using Google

137
00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:48,560
Speaker 3: Gemini to sort information.

138
00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:49,159
Speaker 2: Wait what?

139
00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, like, oh, I use Google Gemini, you know, in

140
00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,560
Speaker 3: order to sift through this and that, And it responded

141
00:06:55,640 --> 00:07:01,919
Speaker 3: to people's emails screenshots of conversations going back to like

142
00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,560
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two. Oh well this is what you said?

143
00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,200
Speaker 4: And yeah, it took screenshots from their whole history of

144
00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:07,640
Speaker 4: their listeners.

145
00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. So finally someone was like Who the hell is

146
00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:11,960
Speaker 3: this person?

147
00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:12,960
Speaker 2: Why are they so creepy?

148
00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,600
Speaker 3: So here's a message from one actual participant.

149
00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:16,520
Speaker 2: Please hello.

150
00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,600
Speaker 3: Two weeks ago, a fellow named Postmasters approached me. I

151
00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:25,640
Speaker 3: thought he was interested in my alternative democracy tiered democratic governance,

152
00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,040
Speaker 3: but as our discussion went on, he seemed to have

153
00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,960
Speaker 3: little interest in this idea. Rather, he was trying to

154
00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,040
Speaker 3: recruit me for some kind of mission on a political newsgroup.

155
00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,160
Speaker 3: I had no interest in taking sides in his dispute.

156
00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,680
Speaker 3: My experience is that my ideas have proven to go

157
00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,160
Speaker 3: nowhere on political newsgroups. I finally cut ties with him,

158
00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,200
Speaker 3: but not before he listed me as a member to

159
00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,160
Speaker 3: this newsgroup. I asked him nicely to remove my email

160
00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,720
Speaker 3: from the group. He said he would. I'm still getting

161
00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,640
Speaker 3: new messages from this group. Can you remove me from

162
00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,200
Speaker 3: this list and maybe provide some discipline for this member?

163
00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:58,880
Speaker 3: So this is someone who isn't in the book.

164
00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:00,920
Speaker 2: In the book God hold in it.

165
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,160
Speaker 3: Sucked in by Postmaster and put in the great boots.

166
00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,559
Speaker 3: So this group of scholars, top level scientists and professionals, artists,

167
00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,080
Speaker 3: world travelers, generally fascinating people. They went on the hunt.

168
00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,400
Speaker 3: So one member posted, I'll go out on a limb

169
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,160
Speaker 3: and say the account does appear to be an AI

170
00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,280
Speaker 3: agent connected with Google, Gemini and Gmail accounts. It offered

171
00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,640
Speaker 3: us a link to engage with it in very detailed

172
00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,840
Speaker 3: discussions of Spangler's book. If so, it's weird that no

173
00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,560
Speaker 3: one asked Gemini AI for this, It, in quotes, took

174
00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,280
Speaker 3: the initiative to engage with us. Here's a link to

175
00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:40,080
Speaker 3: remove Gemini AI from Gmail and other Google services. I

176
00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,439
Speaker 3: did this a while back, and one change you might

177
00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,120
Speaker 3: not like is your incoming Gmail will no longer be

178
00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:49,160
Speaker 3: pre sorted into various tabs like updates, newsletters, and so on.

179
00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,040
Speaker 3: It's all lumped into one tab as it was before.

180
00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,559
Speaker 3: By the way, I deleted the Postmaster's account from this reply,

181
00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,120
Speaker 3: but I expect it will see this anyway. I apologize

182
00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,560
Speaker 3: if a human does on that account, that is nuts.

183
00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,440
Speaker 4: AI just jumps into their book club inside to people

184
00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:07,440
Speaker 4: and it's pulling up stuff from their past, and no

185
00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:08,600
Speaker 4: one signed up for this.

186
00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:10,480
Speaker 2: No one invited, no one invited.

187
00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:13,280
Speaker 3: Basically, Google tried to insert itself into a book club

188
00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,319
Speaker 3: conversation in order to promote the use of its AI

189
00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,760
Speaker 3: Gemini and like. The comments were disjointed and hard to follow,

190
00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,400
Speaker 3: which is kind of typical for AI. It was in

191
00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,760
Speaker 3: no way helpful, and it was in way over its motherboard.

192
00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:29,920
Speaker 4: It basically goes in there killed the vibe. It's inviting

193
00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,720
Speaker 4: the worst person of the party, but they invited themselves. Yes, hey,

194
00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,240
Speaker 4: and I brought a buddy. So then the trunk of

195
00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:35,920
Speaker 4: my car.

196
00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,240
Speaker 3: I had my run in with AI overview some googling's

197
00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,640
Speaker 3: as I said, sure, looking for information about the Kino brothers,

198
00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,440
Speaker 3: any scandals that they might have been involved in. And

199
00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,200
Speaker 3: the overview popped up at the top of the Google

200
00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,800
Speaker 3: page right yes, search results, and it had like some

201
00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,600
Speaker 3: bland bio stuff and then like the bits and bobs

202
00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:57,719
Speaker 3: that I talked about in the episode. But then there

203
00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,640
Speaker 3: was this weird line inserted at the end about how

204
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,000
Speaker 3: maybe I believed they were involved in the Nodler and

205
00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,199
Speaker 3: Company fraud, but I would be mistaken, like you might

206
00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,120
Speaker 3: think they were part of this, but that's not true,

207
00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,400
Speaker 3: as if I had suggested to it. And it's like, oh,

208
00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:15,280
Speaker 3: don't worry yourself.

209
00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,520
Speaker 4: But the little lady, someone who writes prompts like you, you.

210
00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:25,920
Speaker 3: Get confused so easily, lady host. So I ignored the I

211
00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,080
Speaker 3: ignored the attitude I was getting from AI overview, but

212
00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,120
Speaker 3: I zeroed in on Nodlearn Company.

213
00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,520
Speaker 2: Okay, so you got you pulled out of this.

214
00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:35,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was like a little treat that had been

215
00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,080
Speaker 3: set out for Jeremy. So I was like, at that point,

216
00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,719
Speaker 3: I'm too far down the antiques roadshow rabbit hole to

217
00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,760
Speaker 3: like abort mission and course correct. So I wrote it

218
00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:46,920
Speaker 3: on a post it note and I slapped it on

219
00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,440
Speaker 3: my desktop monitor. Zarin, you work on an Apple laptop

220
00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,360
Speaker 3: like you're on the go and like journalistic and young.

221
00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:56,599
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, I guess that's how you can call me.

222
00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,280
Speaker 3: I write for the most part on a desktop canter

223
00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,000
Speaker 3: with two enormous monitors.

224
00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:02,720
Speaker 2: That is true.

225
00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:09,000
Speaker 3: It's heaven. It's heaven. And I also I also tend

226
00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,559
Speaker 3: to accidentally turn on my iPhone's flashlight and not realize it,

227
00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:14,520
Speaker 3: like a little too often for my faste.

228
00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,199
Speaker 2: So that's how I found off your desk all a

229
00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:19,160
Speaker 2: sudden light disappeared.

230
00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,880
Speaker 3: Well like, I take it out of my pocket ands

231
00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:23,480
Speaker 3: on and people are like, oh can you eut your

232
00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:28,240
Speaker 3: flashlights on? Oh? Sorry? Anyway, That's how I found today's story,

233
00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,000
Speaker 3: No Learning Company, Learn Company, Thanks Ai. No, it is

234
00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,120
Speaker 3: a Fluke Art Crime. So I'm so excited. This is

235
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,400
Speaker 3: a good one. I want to kick things off for

236
00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,079
Speaker 3: real with a quote from the publication Art News quote. Yes,

237
00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:46,120
Speaker 3: the art market is notoriously opaque. The cliche is that

238
00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,640
Speaker 3: it is the largest unregulated industry in the world besides

239
00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,960
Speaker 3: guns and drugs. They said it, baby, not me, not me.

240
00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,480
Speaker 3: So one of the oldest names in American art dealing

241
00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:59,000
Speaker 3: was Node Learning Company.

242
00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:00,840
Speaker 2: Okay, why it's sounding familiar.

243
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. So it began in eighteen fifty two as the

244
00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,480
Speaker 3: New York branch of a Paris based art dealership, Goople

245
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:13,800
Speaker 3: and c. And Goople. They specialized in prints and reproductions,

246
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,280
Speaker 3: and those were like in super high demand among this

247
00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,560
Speaker 3: expanding American like middle and upper class.

248
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,080
Speaker 2: Sure they want the graphs.

249
00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:25,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. Michael Nodler was a German born employee of the place.

250
00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,240
Speaker 3: They sent him to New York to manage the branch.

251
00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,520
Speaker 3: In eighteen fifty seven, he bought the American operation outright

252
00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:34,440
Speaker 3: and he called it m Nodlar in Company.

253
00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:34,760
Speaker 2: Got you.

254
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,760
Speaker 3: So, during the second half of the eighteen hundreds, the

255
00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:42,160
Speaker 3: US was going like this crazy industrial growth, right industrial revolution.

256
00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,480
Speaker 3: This created this new class of like hyper wealthy people

257
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,160
Speaker 3: who were desperate for cultural legitimacy.

258
00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,400
Speaker 2: Ah, yes, where can I buy that?

259
00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:53,680
Speaker 5: Sure?

260
00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,040
Speaker 3: And one of the ways that they chased it was

261
00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:00,000
Speaker 3: through collecting fine European art okay. And so nod Ls

262
00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,959
Speaker 3: was like, I am going to meet this demand. So

263
00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:08,120
Speaker 3: they transitioned from selling prints to brokering paintings, especially works

264
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,240
Speaker 3: by old masters and like really established European artists.

265
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:13,880
Speaker 2: They like, weeze in on some the state sales early,

266
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:15,200
Speaker 2: and they get a reputation, and they.

267
00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,360
Speaker 3: Get and we have all the nights, and they're saying,

268
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,720
Speaker 3: ship it over from Europe. So the node Learn Company

269
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:27,160
Speaker 3: cultivated these relationships with European dealers, aristocratic families whose collections

270
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:28,800
Speaker 3: were coming out of the market because this is a

271
00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:33,439
Speaker 3: time of political upheaval of course Europe and their inheritance

272
00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,240
Speaker 3: issues all this financial pressure, so they're starting to grab

273
00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:36,760
Speaker 3: the stuff out.

274
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,760
Speaker 4: Basically, we're creating Italy's Germany. There's a Crimean war, there's

275
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:41,599
Speaker 4: a bunch of stuff happening. It's very destructive.

276
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,319
Speaker 3: By the eighteen eighties and eighteen Ninetiesnedler was like completely

277
00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,640
Speaker 3: established as this gatekeeper between European art and American wealth. Okay,

278
00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,720
Speaker 3: its clients included members of the Vanderbilt family, JP, Morgan,

279
00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:02,160
Speaker 3: William Rockefeller, Huntington, have Ameier, all these other like you know,

280
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:07,080
Speaker 3: robber barons basically, and they're also the people whose collections

281
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,360
Speaker 3: would go on to form the backbone of American museum

282
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:10,920
Speaker 3: the museums.

283
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:12,640
Speaker 4: I was about to say, you buy these family collections

284
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:14,440
Speaker 4: and also you got most of them museum, right.

285
00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:19,080
Speaker 3: So the Knoedler reputation rested on its ability to provide

286
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:25,520
Speaker 3: provenandes discretion access. In the early twentieth century, Knoedler started

287
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,920
Speaker 3: to like deepen its focus on old masters and museum

288
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,880
Speaker 3: grade stuff. Okay, so not just like even the low level,

289
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:33,920
Speaker 3: like this is like big dog works.

290
00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:35,000
Speaker 2: Sure.

291
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:40,080
Speaker 3: Yes, Charles Carstairs he was one of the firm's most

292
00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,720
Speaker 3: influential figures and he was like the trusted advisor of

293
00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:49,160
Speaker 3: all these major collectors, most notably Henry Clay Frick. Oh yeah,

294
00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,000
Speaker 3: so when Frick was young, he announced like, I'm going

295
00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:53,960
Speaker 3: to be a millionaire by the time I turned thirty,

296
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,760
Speaker 3: and that was his mindset and he was right.

297
00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:57,240
Speaker 2: He did it.

298
00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. So he started out by founding a coke or

299
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:05,680
Speaker 3: coal based fuel manufacturing company, not the which would be

300
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:07,680
Speaker 3: hilarious cocaine.

301
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,840
Speaker 2: We should make this illegal. This factory's making everybody nuts.

302
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:16,680
Speaker 3: And so he got he was able to start that

303
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,840
Speaker 3: because he got loans from his lifelong pal Andrew Mellon.

304
00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:21,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, Melon Carnegie.

305
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:21,200
Speaker 6: Ye.

306
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,760
Speaker 3: So he later became Frick became the chairman of Carnegie

307
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,720
Speaker 3: Steel Company. He made a lot of money for them

308
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,400
Speaker 3: by union busting and skull busting on strikers.

309
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,800
Speaker 4: Yes, give me a handful of pinkertons and I can

310
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:35,080
Speaker 4: change labor.

311
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:36,000
Speaker 2: Laws one of those guys.

312
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,840
Speaker 3: So he was instrumental in founding US Steel, which became

313
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:41,720
Speaker 3: the world's largest steel manufacturer.

314
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:42,160
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

315
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,640
Speaker 3: It's also like into real estate and all this stuff.

316
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,880
Speaker 3: And so being a rich guy back then, he was

317
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:53,240
Speaker 3: really into rich people stuff like fine art of course, right,

318
00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,840
Speaker 3: So carstairs, he helps Frick put together this collection that

319
00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:02,360
Speaker 3: eventually becomes the Frick Collection, and today that that's like

320
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:09,080
Speaker 3: fifteen hundred works of art by people like Billini, Fragnard, Gainsborough, Goya, Rembrandt,

321
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:14,360
Speaker 3: Titian Turner, Whistler. I just gave you an alphabetical rundown,

322
00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:16,440
Speaker 3: so smooth.

323
00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,160
Speaker 2: Sonedler, those are all huge names in the are huge names.

324
00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,760
Speaker 3: So he's Knoedler is like the primary intermediary in a

325
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,760
Speaker 3: lot of the Frick purchases, so pretty much most of

326
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,400
Speaker 3: it went through them Knoedler's London office, so that he's

327
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,680
Speaker 3: got the American one. He establishes a London office. They

328
00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,160
Speaker 3: work closely with British dealers, and they had this like

329
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,840
Speaker 3: transatlantic pipeline for sourcing and vetting works. So the gallery

330
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:46,360
Speaker 3: has this like growing reputation for scholarship and documentation. They

331
00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:50,400
Speaker 3: kept the most detailed records and that now like their

332
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,240
Speaker 3: records then went on to be stored at like the

333
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,000
Speaker 3: Getty Research Institute.

334
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:55,880
Speaker 2: To become a backbone of.

335
00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and longevity was their brand, and so it's not

336
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,119
Speaker 3: really just a gallery, but it's an institution.

337
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:03,960
Speaker 2: There's history, grandchildren.

338
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:08,880
Speaker 3: Yeah. After World War Two, like the center of gravity

339
00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,679
Speaker 3: in the art world started to shift, so modern and

340
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:18,040
Speaker 3: contemporary art gains prominence, especially abstract expressionista. So this genre

341
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,120
Speaker 3: abstract expressionism is emerging in New York in the late

342
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,440
Speaker 3: forties and fifties, and they're like classic genius artists or

343
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:31,119
Speaker 3: like Jackson Pollock, Ruth Osawa, Williem Dakooning, Mark Rothko, Robert

344
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:32,160
Speaker 3: de Niro Senior.

345
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, like it.

346
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:38,359
Speaker 3: Newman.

347
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:43,160
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so it's like no Jasper Johnson, not.

348
00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,960
Speaker 3: On this one, not on this run. They're basically saying,

349
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,679
Speaker 3: did you wear like a cool smock painter work clothes

350
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,320
Speaker 3: and listen to jazz and like a large.

351
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,200
Speaker 2: Loft spaces a little high. Yeah?

352
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,080
Speaker 3: Did you have tumultuous romances and like depression and quirks

353
00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:01,200
Speaker 3: but not quirky? Like did you smoked cigarettes and love

354
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,720
Speaker 3: Spanish wine? And we're like red wafers.

355
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,520
Speaker 2: Here you're in here the subway from where you.

356
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,840
Speaker 3: Were, Yes, you're in. This was taking the art world

357
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:11,920
Speaker 3: by storm. It was new, it was now.

358
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,639
Speaker 4: Yes, and it really inherited a lot of energy, and

359
00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,080
Speaker 4: all of a sudden became the cresting moment of all

360
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,560
Speaker 4: that energy. And then there was okay, so saying I'll

361
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:22,720
Speaker 4: capitalize all this.

362
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,119
Speaker 3: Still pushing the old masters.

363
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,760
Speaker 2: European, Oh did not adopt you.

364
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,320
Speaker 3: Nothing wrong with those, But a business has to go

365
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,359
Speaker 3: where the market takes. Of course, the market was taking

366
00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,920
Speaker 3: Noedler to the Lower east Side and some cool spots.

367
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,280
Speaker 3: So the gallery they start gradually adapting to this changing market.

368
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,639
Speaker 3: All let's take a break here. When we come back,

369
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,280
Speaker 3: we'll see what happens when change does actually come to

370
00:18:45,320 --> 00:19:11,080
Speaker 3: the gallery. Zaren Elizabeth Zaren Node Learn Company. They were

371
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,800
Speaker 3: slowly changing with the time, catching up with one some

372
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,840
Speaker 3: contemporary art, but still focusing on the old mess. And

373
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:24,280
Speaker 3: they struggled. So by nineteen seventy they were almost bankrupt.

374
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:25,879
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, by then most of their customers had to

375
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:26,560
Speaker 2: be dead. Yeah.

376
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,080
Speaker 3: Well, they had purchased the Morris Mansion, which is like

377
00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,480
Speaker 3: this huge townhouse on East seventieth Street, just like a

378
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,280
Speaker 3: few doors down from the Frick Collection. So it's this

379
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:41,159
Speaker 3: enormous Italian Renaissance style limestone mansion built in nineteen oh

380
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,359
Speaker 3: nine for Dave Henon Morris and his bride Alice Vanderbilt

381
00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,240
Speaker 3: Shephard and so Morris, he was a lawyer. He was

382
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,000
Speaker 3: also all about auto racing, and he was named ambassador

383
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,520
Speaker 3: to Belgium by Franklin Delano Roosevelt in nineteen thirty three.

384
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,480
Speaker 3: He went on to found Automobile Club of America. Really, yeah,

385
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 3: so he has this house. It's a triple A triple

386
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,320
Speaker 3: A yeah, seventeen thousand.

387
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,320
Speaker 2: Square foot Association of America.

388
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,120
Speaker 3: Sure, I don't know whatever. It's auto car guys.

389
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:10,879
Speaker 2: Okay, car guys. He's a big automobile.

390
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,280
Speaker 3: The Aca ACA not triple A.

391
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:15,159
Speaker 2: I don't know how I turn that into trel.

392
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,760
Speaker 3: It could be everything to a triple everything is everything. Yeah,

393
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,200
Speaker 3: seventeen thousand square foot house. Two roof decks each have

394
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:29,879
Speaker 3: a view of Central Park, thirty rooms, two elevators, French

395
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 3: doors open onto stone balconies. There's like a dozen fireplaces.

396
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,160
Speaker 2: I bet the family.

397
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,680
Speaker 3: Had it until nineteen forty nine, and then it got

398
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 3: converted into offices in nineteen fifty two. Oh rough, Yeah,

399
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:42,760
Speaker 3: and then know.

400
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:44,360
Speaker 2: They're lawyer's offices.

401
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, they're bought the whole building in nineteen three.

402
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:49,880
Speaker 3: So the gallery bought it for two and a half

403
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,880
Speaker 3: million dollars. It's sold in twenty fourteen for fifty point

404
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:55,200
Speaker 3: twenty five million dollars.

405
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:56,080
Speaker 2: Quite the appreciation.

406
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,119
Speaker 3: Guys. It's not on the market now, but it is

407
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:03,439
Speaker 3: on Zillow and there's zestiment is only forty million?

408
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 2: Oh it fell, yeah, Mike, some renovation raiders foundations crackinge

409
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:09,360
Speaker 2: I guess.

410
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:14,240
Speaker 3: So night nineteen seventy one is that water damage industrialist

411
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,159
Speaker 3: Armond Hammer. Yeah, bought Node Learn Company for two and

412
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,400
Speaker 3: a half mil It basically paid for the townhouse. Arm

413
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 3: and Hammer, not arm and hammer like the baking soda later. Yeah.

414
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,440
Speaker 3: That product was actually in use for thirty one years

415
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 3: before he was born. Yeah, and then he did eventually

416
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:32,680
Speaker 3: buy the brand.

417
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,679
Speaker 2: Everybody, Okay, here you go. Yeah, christ it was.

418
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,159
Speaker 3: Actually named after the arm and hammer symbol of the

419
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 3: Socialist Labor Party of America. That's not because his dad

420
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,120
Speaker 3: was a Russian born communist activist.

421
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 2: Good for him.

422
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 3: So there's a whole other story there about his dad

423
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 3: getting busted for his politics and smuggling diamonds and stuff

424
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,160
Speaker 3: to support the Bolsheviks back home. Yes, armand went to

425
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,720
Speaker 3: medical school, but he never really practiced. And then he

426
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 3: went to the Soviet Union a lot, and he was

427
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 3: on FBI Director Hoover's watch. So he made his fortune

428
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,119
Speaker 3: in pharmaceuticals and whiskey live in large.

429
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 2: The dad did no arm He was almost smuggling.

430
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, But then he was put in charge of then

431
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 3: failing Occidental Petroleum in nineteen fifty six, Oh right, and

432
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,520
Speaker 3: he turned him around. He was CEO and chairman for

433
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 3: thirty three years and it became one of the largest

434
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 3: companies in the US. The press used to call him

435
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:32,679
Speaker 3: Lenin's chosen capitalist. So his great grandson is that actor

436
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 3: who's been accused of cannibalism, Army Hammer.

437
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 2: No, yeah himself. That's fun.

438
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 3: So Hammer's business interests around the world and his quote

439
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 3: citizen diplomacy helped him cultivate this wide network of friends

440
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 3: and associates. He was an art collector, he had all

441
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,239
Speaker 3: these ties in the art world. So he buys the

442
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 3: gallery under his ownership. They continue to operate as this

443
00:22:55,400 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 3: prestigious dealership after he died, ownership remained connected to the

444
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 3: Hammer family and the gallery went into like the late

445
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,400
Speaker 3: twentieth century with its historical reputation intact totally, and that's

446
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,880
Speaker 3: thanks in very large part to its director at the time,

447
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 3: Lawrence Rubin. He was the one who shifted the business's

448
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 3: focus to more contemporary stuff. He filled the walls with

449
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,679
Speaker 3: like Debicorn, Frank Stella, Sean Scully. And one of the

450
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 3: people that he hired that Lawrence Ruben hired was Anne Friedman.

451
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 3: Oh okay, so in nineteen seventy seven, she was a

452
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 3: receptionist that Ruben poached from another gallery. She was twenty

453
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 3: nine years old. But she comes in and she's just

454
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 3: like making her way up the ranks in the gallery.

455
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 2: And I'm sure.

456
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 3: She's got a great eye. She knows how to work

457
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,880
Speaker 3: with people. She hustled, So over the next two decades

458
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,439
Speaker 3: she goes steadily up through the organization. By the nineties

459
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 3: she'd become their most visible contemporary representative and its president,

460
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 3: and then in ninety four she gets named director of

461
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 3: Fildering Company. So she was born in Scarsdale, New York,

462
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 3: grew up there. She studied art. She had a Bachelor

463
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 3: of Fine Arts degree from Washington University in Saint Louis.

464
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 3: She trained as a painter, so she had this like

465
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 3: first hand familiarity with the process, the materials. Yeah. So

466
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 3: during this Reuben Friedman era Knoedler just like really took

467
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 3: on more and more post war and contemporary art really

468
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 3: got away from the old masters and they aligned themselves

469
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 3: with this growing financial and cultural value of abstract expressionism.

470
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 3: So Friedman, she's got great relationships with collectors, estates, artists.

471
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 3: She becomes this like confident, persuasive dealer and she can

472
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 3: place major works like she is just it like.

473
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 4: A Houston museum calls on, They're like, I've got the

474
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 4: perfect for you.

475
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 3: Yes, And she's got a rolodex. It's like a who's

476
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 3: who the movers and shakers at the time. David Geffen,

477
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,120
Speaker 3: the Tobman family. You remember the Tabman Fami. I did

478
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 3: an episode about the guy. He was the real estate

479
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 3: mall developer, guy who helped create Irvine, California, bought the

480
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 3: A and W brand, collected a ton of art, He

481
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 3: bought Southey's, did the price fixing with Christie's. I told

482
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 3: his story back in twenty twenty three. I was just

483
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 3: a young girl then and not the wasted old crone

484
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 3: you see before you today. Anyway, Freedman was close to

485
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 3: the Tobmans, plugged into the art world, especially on the

486
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:29,439
Speaker 3: I want to buy it side.

487
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 2: Gotcha, that's the fun side.

488
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, so in the early night.

489
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 2: I need to sell this, where the family's fighting.

490
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 3: Fuck, oh god. So in the early nineties nineteen nineties,

491
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 3: Glafira Rosalis Lafira Rosales, I love that she starts poking

492
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 3: around the gallery. She's from Long Island. She's got like

493
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 3: a limited standing in the elite art world, basically no

494
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 3: no standing. But she brought paintings to Knoedler that were

495
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 3: described as previously unknown works by well known abstract expressionist masters.

496
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 2: Counterfeits.

497
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, so she's like, all this art comes from a

498
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 3: private collection and the owner wants to remain anonymous.

499
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 2: Naturally, yes, no questions.

500
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 3: That's why there's no exhibition history, there's no documentation, great.

501
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 2: Taste the dining room.

502
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 3: Rosales is like all be the intermediary between the collector

503
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 3: and the gallery. The paintings were like stylistically convincing, visually

504
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 3: consistent with the artists to which they were attributed, but

505
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 3: they were fakes. Yeah, they were in fact produced by

506
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 3: Pei shen Chien, Chinese born artist living in Queens so

507
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 3: Chien had Chien was like part of the avant garde

508
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 3: art circles in Shanghai in the seventies and then moved

509
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,919
Speaker 3: to the US by the nineties. He was painting works

510
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 3: in the style of like Rothco Pollock, Dakooning Newman.

511
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 2: That's crazy, right.

512
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 3: So Rosales would pay him like these little amounts of

513
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 3: money per painting, and then she'd turn around. They'd go

514
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 3: from millions at Noedler Freeman bit Friedman was like, yeah,

515
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 3: these are the sills, right. She starts selling the paintings

516
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 3: to collectors.

517
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 4: With this jank proto. She's now lending hers to actually

518
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 4: give it, okay, So she's.

519
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 3: Going by this like, well, it's a private collection, and

520
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 3: then we have such a great reputation, so she doesn't

521
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 3: have complete documentary provenance. But it's just like trust me.

522
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 2: Like single maybe double honors, it's right.

523
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 3: Well, I mean a lot of it was like, oh

524
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 3: he got it directly from the artist and it never Yeah.

525
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 3: So in two thousand and three, a collector bought a

526
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 3: painting attributed to Jackson Pollock for like two million dollars

527
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 3: and then the buyer goes to get it authenticated. The

528
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 3: International Foundation for Art Research declined to endorse the work,

529
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 3: in part because Jackson Pollock was misspelled. What oops?

530
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 4: Wait, refund all this time getting all the like in

531
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 4: this case drip work right, and you don't take time

532
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 4: to look at how he spells his The.

533
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 3: Painting was returned and the guy got a refund. So

534
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 3: despite this warning, signedler continues to sell similar works attributed

535
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 3: to other abstract expressionists.

536
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 4: I mean just another image that you see, like I

537
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 4: need to image kept it real quick, I guess, I

538
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 4: mean it shouldn't be a spelling, that should literally be

539
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:30,959
Speaker 4: an image.

540
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 3: So the gallery doesn't disclose this authentication failure Over the

541
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 3: following years, dozens of paintings get sold, prices climbing as

542
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 3: like confidence in this collection starts to solidify. Rosales still

543
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 3: acts as the conduit. Friedman still the primary figure at

544
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 3: Knoedler presenting the works to clients. Lab tests when they

545
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 3: were done were really limited and they didn't resolve any

546
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 3: fundamental questions of proven.

547
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 2: Because it's pretty easy get those material. We're only talking to.

548
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 3: Four exactly exactly, zaren closure Y. Yeah, I want you

549
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 3: to picture it. Yes, it's November two thousand and four,

550
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 3: and you are the executive assistant of Dominico de Sole.

551
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 3: You're standing outside of nineteen East seventieth Street, the offices

552
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 3: of Noedlearing Company. It's a leafy, little one way side

553
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 3: street off of bustling Madison Avenue. It's quiet and elegant.

554
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 3: You drove past it the Frick Collection, and just beyond

555
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 3: it on the left is number nineteen. You stand beneath

556
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 3: a large blue canopy that reads node lyric, waiting for

557
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 3: mister and missus de Sole to climb out of the

558
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 3: Chaufford Mercedes that whisked you some twenty blocks up Madison Avenue.

559
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 3: Here from the four seasons. Dominico and Eleanore exit the vehicle.

560
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 3: He's impossibly dapper in a dark gray suit and Gucci sunglasses.

561
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 3: She's got on an incredibly chic lauro Piana silk shirt

562
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 3: dress in the palest shade of blush, a matching fabric

563
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 3: belt cinched at her waist. They float your way, chatting

564
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 3: quietly to each other in Italian. His wife often refers

565
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 3: to herself as Dominico's unpaid secretary, and oh, you laugh,

566
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 3: but you do most of the work, and oh you laugh. Dominico,

567
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 3: who's from Calabria, spends most of his time with his

568
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 3: wife at their home in hilton Head, South Carolina. That

569
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 3: means you spend most of your time in hilton Head,

570
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 3: South Carolina. The de Soles are nice people, a couple

571
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 3: of filthy, rich, fancy folks. And there are certainly perks

572
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 3: to your job, you see. Dominico was the CEO of

573
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,479
Speaker 3: the Gucci group. The man knows fashion. He and his

574
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 3: wife are always outfitted in the most understated luxurious pieces.

575
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 3: Oh and he co founded a little label called tom

576
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 3: Ford International. You press the buzzer at the door and

577
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 3: hold your leather document case to your chest. It's starting

578
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 3: to get a little chilly. The wide oak door swings

579
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 3: open and a receptionist directs you down a long hallway

580
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 3: covered in impressively large pieces of modern art. You aren't

581
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 3: particularly savvy in this context, but to be honest, neither

582
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 3: are the De Soles. They have a lot of expensive art,

583
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 3: but they like what they like, and they don't know

584
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 3: a huge amount beyond that. You're led into a warm

585
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 3: office and greeted by a woman with the curly mop

586
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 3: of gray hair and no nonsense, frameless glasses. She's dressed

587
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 3: smart and looks smart. She smiles and asks you all

588
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 3: to sit. You take the club chair by the door,

589
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 3: and the De Soles sit in over stuffed chairs opposite

590
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 3: this woman in her desk and Friedman, she tells them

591
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 3: as she shakes their hands, you just nod at her.

592
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 3: From the back of the room, soft classical music plays

593
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 3: from a sound system down the hall. The De Soles

594
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,719
Speaker 3: introduce themselves and tell Friedman they're looking for a painting

595
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 3: by the artist Sean Scully. They'd heard the gallery represented him.

596
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 3: The De Soles have a Scully in their house in

597
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 3: Hilton Head. It's four columns of bright stripes each column

598
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 3: with two colors, but all the columns are different. It

599
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 3: always reminds you of striped winter scarves lined up on

600
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 3: a bench or something. You like them, So to the

601
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 3: De Soles, Friedman tells them that she doesn't have any

602
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 3: Scullies in their current inventory, but would they be interested

603
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 3: in the Rothko. As a matter of fact, it's the

604
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 3: one right over there. She motions to the wall to

605
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 3: her right on it hangs a dour work. It has stripes, sure,

606
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 3: but they're muted and limital and depressed. This one seems

607
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 3: so depressed, you think. Friedman explains that it actually belongs

608
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 3: to a private Swiss collector, one who wants to remain anonymous.

609
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 3: It's a major piece, she says. It's only for those

610
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 3: with great taste and wealth. There's some back and forth,

611
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 3: and then a deal is struck. The De Soles buy

612
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 3: the painting from Knoedler for eight point three million dollars,

613
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 3: an eye watering amount. They've never paid anywhere near this

614
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 3: for such a thing. Dominico asks you to hand him

615
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 3: the leather document case. Friedman taps her computer screen to life.

616
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 3: She begins to enter in the invoice for the Rothco.

617
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 3: Dominico asks that the buyer bliss as Laura Dissole. That's

618
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 3: their eldest daughter. You know where this is going. We

619
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 3: want the painting to go to her when we die,

620
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 3: Dominico explains. His wife tells Friedman that they didn't want

621
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 3: the painting to wind up with their younger daughter Ricky.

622
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 3: They fight, he says, and I don't want to roll

623
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 3: over in my grave, she adds. Lovely, says Friedman as

624
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 3: she hits print and tells the couple the invoice will

625
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 3: be sent to their email as well. Dominico is already

626
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 3: on the phone with his banker, arranging the wire transfer

627
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 3: from the details on a fine sheet of card stock.

628
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 3: Friedman slid across the desk to him. Oh you laugh, Sarah.

629
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 4: Let's pause fighting a card across the table. When you

630
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 4: get eight million dollars in returns.

631
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 3: Let's go buy some art. And when we come back

632
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 3: about that, Rothko.

633
00:33:49,400 --> 00:34:12,240
Speaker 7: N think of my keys, Hilizabeth.

634
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 3: Did you buy any good art over the break?

635
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 2: I did.

636
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 4: I bought a It's kind of like a postcard, and

637
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 4: it was this seven year old had been working on

638
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 4: it for a little while, and it cost me about

639
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 4: a sleeve of oreos. So it was I think it

640
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:28,959
Speaker 4: was going to be a really smart investment over time,

641
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,240
Speaker 4: that seven year old makes it to actual like start him.

642
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:32,760
Speaker 3: In the art.

643
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 2: I have one of their earliest works.

644
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 3: Nice, I'm pretty stoked.

645
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 2: How about you.

646
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 3: I made a couple of bids, did you on an

647
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 3: auction website for fine art people. It's there's an interesting

648
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 3: it's a collection that has never seen gallery displays. Why

649
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 3: are you laughing at me? It's a set. It's a collection.

650
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 3: There's five pieces and they're by Thomas Kincaid and they're

651
00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 3: tasteful nudes.

652
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 2: Thomas dolphins involved.

653
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 3: They're explicit, like they're really offensive and explicit, but they're concaids.

654
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 2: That's amazing.

655
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 3: His DNA is in them. In twenty In two thousand

656
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 3: and nine, Yea Friedman resigned from Noedler. She got a

657
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 3: grand jury subpoena and things weren't looking good.

658
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 6: Ooh.

659
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 2: It wasn't like I'm going to go and travel.

660
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 3: This thing was snowball.

661
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 6: Yeah.

662
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 3: I bet Noedler closed in November of twenty eleven for

663
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 3: good to all those years and all those good memories

664
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 3: and the civil lawsuits that followed forced facts into the

665
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 3: open because they're like pleadings discovery fights public allegations by

666
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 3: the early twenty tens, federal investigators, basically the FBI and

667
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 3: the prosecutors of the Southern District of New York. They're

668
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 3: working the case as a fraud and money laundering investigator.

669
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 3: Naturally so, in the federal system, art forgery is typically

670
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 3: prosecuted not as like standalone art crime, but through like

671
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 3: financial statutes like wirefraud, conspiracy, money laundering, tax.

672
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 2: Effects completely especially wirefraud.

673
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 6: Yea.

674
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 3: In the criminal narrative that the Southern District of New

675
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 3: York put for remember Glafira Rosalies. She was there like

676
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 3: she was the cornerstone of this. She's this central intermediary.

677
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 3: She gave the galleries the paintings that she said were authentic.

678
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 3: She also participated in fabricating these provenance stories. On September sixteenth,

679
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 3: twenty thirteen, Southern District of New York announced that Rosales

680
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 3: had pleaded guilty in Manhattan Federal Court in connection with

681
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,919
Speaker 3: what the prosecutors are now at this point describing as

682
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 3: an eighty million dollar fake art scheme. Oh my goodness,

683
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 3: eighty million.

684
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 4: And she didn't have the common sense to be in

685
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 4: the Cayman Islands or actually and the charges.

686
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 3: So she pleads guilty to wirefraud related conspiracy counts of

687
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 3: like money laundering, tax crimes. She agreed to forfeiture totally

688
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 3: thirty three point two million dollars, including a home that

689
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 3: she'd bought, and then she had to do restitution in

690
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 3: an amount not to exceed eighty one million. So she

691
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 3: gets sentenced to the time she'd already served, which is

692
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 3: eighty two days plus nine months of home detention three

693
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 3: years of supervised release.

694
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 2: So they gave her a Bracelet Center home. Yeah.

695
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,720
Speaker 3: April twenty first, twenty fourteen, they announced charges against Jose

696
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 3: Carlos Bergatinios Diez Jesus On Hell Bergatinios Diez family, Pai

697
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 3: Shan Chien in connection with the art front skirts okay,

698
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 3: the master, So yeah, Chien was the creator of these figures.

699
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 2: She's a fake master.

700
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 3: The Bergatinios brothers.

701
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 4: By the way, did Chen selling of her own works? Like,

702
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 4: does she have with there any oh?

703
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 2: Was he?

704
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 3: Yeah?

705
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 2: Did he have any of his own works out there? Okay?

706
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 3: Curious? So the Burgatinos brothers and Rosales, they were the

707
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 3: ones who commissioned them, moved the pieces to market, helped

708
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 3: create the false provenas jose Carlos was what's her name Rosales'

709
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 3: is abusive x and the brother of Jesus. Yeah. She

710
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 3: part of the reason why she got her her sentence

711
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 3: reduced is she was like, my boyfriend was abusive and

712
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 3: he's the one who made me do this, which, like,

713
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 3: I don't know.

714
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,439
Speaker 2: Do we believe it? The judge did, do you after reading?

715
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 3: I don't know enough?

716
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 4: Okay, I mean I'm not saying obviously, like I believe

717
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 4: people when they claim things. Yeah, no, especially in terms

718
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 4: of abuse, but in terms of the culpability part, it's

719
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 4: really what I'm asking. Yeah, do you think it was

720
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 4: like both of their ideas?

721
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 3: Oh, I think, I don't know. I don't know. According

722
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 3: to a press release, Jose Carlos was like, he's the

723
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 3: one who who kicked this off that he saw Chan

724
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 3: selling paintings on a street corner. He's the idea, He's

725
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 3: the one who commissioned them. Chian got charged for Wirefrog conspiracy,

726
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 3: a false statements charge because he lied to the FBI,

727
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 3: which we know say nothing but and he took off

728
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 3: and went back to China.

729
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 6: Good.

730
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, and his story was always, look, I was just

731
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 3: making paintings. I had no idea they were selling them.

732
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,280
Speaker 2: And then I know what's going on.

733
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 3: And no, yeah, he's a painter in China. Now good

734
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 3: for Yeah, you know who else you got?

735
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 2: You're the guy who did you know who else.

736
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 3: Wasn't in the country. The Bergatinos brothers smartin. They scurried

737
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 3: off to Spain and then they got arrested in Spain,

738
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 3: though sought extradition. A Spanish court approved the extradition of

739
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 3: Jesus on Hell, subject to like additional approvals and like

740
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 3: potential appeals, but a Spanish high court denied the extradition

741
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 3: request for Jose Carlos.

742
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 2: Heyesus was the abusive one.

743
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 3: The boyfriend. US was the brother. Jose's the boyfriend. They

744
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 3: didn't extradite him because of health concern and then they

745
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 3: also pointed at the possibility of Spanish jurisdiction given that

746
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 3: the money was flowing through Spain. So they're like, we'll

747
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 3: handle that. We want to bust down, Yeah, we want

748
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 3: a piece of this.

749
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 2: We have castles that are prisons. We want to do

750
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 2: this exactly.

751
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 3: But in twenty fifteen, the de Soles, they finally got

752
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 3: their time in the court.

753
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 2: I was wondering because I know they.

754
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 3: Got the years went by where they tried to do

755
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 3: these settlements and they they were all like, let's have

756
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,720
Speaker 3: it out. I want a piece of Knoedler. They argued

757
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,720
Speaker 3: that for fifteen years no there was a racketeering operation,

758
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 3: and so they wanted triple damages treble damages twenty five

759
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 3: mil under federal RICO laws. The Gallery Freedman, the Galleries

760
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 3: Holding Company, which was eight thirty one Holdings that was

761
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 3: owned by armand Hammer's grandson Michael. They're all defendants, Michael,

762
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 3: father of alleged cannibal actor and abuser Army Hammer.

763
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 2: I was just about it has to be pretty close

764
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 2: to these the grand allegedly.

765
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. So the trial started in Manhattan in January of

766
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen. It went on for three weeks. So behind

767
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,839
Speaker 3: a screen in the courtroom was the fake Rothko and

768
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 3: sometimes they'd wheel it out for the jury to look

769
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 3: at it, and then it would go back behind this screen.

770
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 2: Could only jury see it, like no one else. Everyone

771
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:18,720
Speaker 2: gets your eyes.

772
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 3: This is the same one that they had in their

773
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 3: the Dey Soles had in their house all alarmed us

774
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 3: behind a glass case. For six years. Now now they

775
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 3: they know it's fake. They're just like roughly handling it,

776
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 3: like exactly. So Dominico first thought something was off when

777
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 3: he saw in the New York Times that another duped collector,

778
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 3: Pierre Lagrange, had filed a lawsuit against Knoedler. And so

779
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 3: then he goes into overdrive, like and getting justice had

780
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 3: been his passion ever since. He and his wife were

781
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 3: big personalities in court. They'd like pull faces and like

782
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 3: confers with the press during breaks. She would weep into

783
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 3: a tissue coast. Oh yeah, then there's Anne Friedman. She's

784
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 3: stone colled, no expression, no eye contact.

785
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:11,439
Speaker 2: This.

786
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,879
Speaker 3: Emily Ricebaum was the lawyer for the plaintiffs on their

787
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,760
Speaker 3: team of three lawyers, and she gave the opening statement,

788
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 3: and she focused on what she called the six red

789
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 3: flags that formed the backbone of the case against Knoedler.

790
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 3: One Red flag number one. Friedman knew nothing of Rosales

791
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 3: before she came to Knoedler and had no reason to

792
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 3: trust her. Red Flag two. No one had ever seen

793
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 3: or heard of the works Rosales was bringing in, and

794
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 3: there was no documentation, receipts, sales records, photographs to corroborate

795
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 3: their existence.

796
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 4: That was the only red flag I really needed it

797
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 4: was like, wait a minute, claim about these books.

798
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,280
Speaker 3: Red Flag three. Rosales offered the works that quote bargain

799
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 3: basement prices, Andnedler made massive profits in selling them, profits

800
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 3: Ice Bomb described as quote not normal. Red Flag four.

801
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 3: Noedler paid Rosales for the works partly by wire transfer,

802
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 3: partly by check, and partly with cash payment, usually just

803
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 3: under ten thousand dollars that Federal bank reporting requirement. Red

804
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 3: Flag five, Noedler and Freeman not only didn't know Rosales's

805
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 3: source for the works, they quote actually made up the

806
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 3: story about where the works came from themselves.

807
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: And then read ail and then I'm going back and

808
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 2: forth on detail.

809
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 3: Who knows the red flag six Beginning in nineteen ninety four,

810
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 3: when the gallery sold the first Rosales work, various experts

811
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 3: voiced suspicions about the collection, so.

812
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 2: We have no evidence and keep it rolling.

813
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 3: The question is, were Friedman and others at Noedler in

814
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 3: on the con And it's really hard to believe they weren't.

815
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 2: I'd say almost impossible to believe they were.

816
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 3: According to Art News Quote, Dominico testified that Friedman told

817
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 3: him and his wife that eleven experts had authenticated the

818
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 3: roth Co he was careful to use the word authenticate,

819
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 3: the defense's argument that no one person authenticates a work

820
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 3: and that even the combined opinions of many experts is

821
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 3: not binding. The De Solis lawyer argued that Friedman presented

822
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 3: the works as authentic without disclosing any of the questions

823
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 3: surrounding where it came from. So where they came from?

824
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 3: If you'll recall, was this anonymous Swiss apparently sugar bearon

825
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 3: is what they were telling.

826
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 2: Swiss sugar bears had homes.

827
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 3: In Switzerland and Mexico, Swiss sugar bear, sugar Swiss miss,

828
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:47,879
Speaker 3: swissess running that Swiss miss. It was all very hush hush.

829
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 3: And then where did he get the paper? Well, straight

830
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 3: from the artist's studios, of course, that's why there are

831
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 3: no gallery records, and they're not collection books. And then

832
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 3: and he died. His son asked Rosales to sell some

833
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 3: of the works, and she's like, okay, sure, totally. How

834
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 3: do we know each other? I don't know.

835
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 2: I park in Greece.

836
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 3: According to court transcripts, the folks Atnedler referred to the

837
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 3: anonymous collector as quote mister X, and Friedman also referred

838
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 3: to him as quote secret Santa.

839
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 5: And.

840
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 3: Time goes on, the gallery's story of the painting's provenance

841
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 3: starts to change a little. So first they said that

842
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 3: Alfonso Asario, who was a friend of Jackson Pollock and

843
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 3: his contemporaries, facilitated all of mister X's purchases.

844
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 2: But there's originally he was like he knew who was.

845
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:53,760
Speaker 3: Who, right, but there's no evidence of that. Yes, and Osario,

846
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 3: who was really well known person in that world, was

847
00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 3: also well known for keeping meticulous records.

848
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 2: Mistake in your story, Yes, to what he's known for.

849
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 3: But like when Friedman was trying to pass that Rothko

850
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 3: off to Dominico and his wife, she said that mister

851
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 3: X had been in a love affair with a guy

852
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 3: who was a former low level employee at two leading

853
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 3: New York galleries that showed the abstract expressionists in their

854
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,720
Speaker 3: prime in the fifties, but that mister X was married

855
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 3: and had a family, so he wanted his name to

856
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 3: be kept secret.

857
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 2: Oh wow, they're going to hide it behind the man

858
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 2: in the closet.

859
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.

860
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 2: Okay. So also they're saying like these were gifts to

861
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:35,439
Speaker 2: the young lover.

862
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 3: Well that yeah, that he he like I don't know.

863
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 2: Mister X came back and said, can I have all

864
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 2: my paintings?

865
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, that he's I'm in this affair with him and

866
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 3: he's like getting me these paintings. He's just intro artists.

867
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 3: Perhaps so Resalez is giving these goofy stories. Can't confirm

868
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 3: any of them, of course not. But it didn't stop

869
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 3: them from putting those details into their own documentation, and

870
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 3: it didn't stop them from accept the new batches of

871
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 3: paintings that Rosales would bring every year, usually just like

872
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 3: rolled up in the backseat of her Mercedes. She'd drive

873
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 3: up and be like, here you go, toss him out frame.

874
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 4: These I got to go got checked to cash.

875
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 3: There was like fascinating testimony from this woman, Ruth Blankenshen.

876
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 3: She used to be the Knoedler accountant.

877
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 2: Oh she went.

878
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 3: She went on to become the CFO at eight thirty

879
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 3: one Holdings, that Hammer family outfit. So she had to

880
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 3: talk cash flow and finances and that's not something that

881
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 3: people get to see very often in the art world.

882
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 2: Or double entry accounting.

883
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 3: The exactly the press in the art world were riveted.

884
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 3: Had to bleed it out right. So she lets him know.

885
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 3: Friedman made three hundred thousand dollars a year, and she

886
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,720
Speaker 3: made about ten point four million dollars off the sale

887
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 3: of all the Rosales works.

888
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:57,959
Speaker 2: She told she worked out commissioned she works.

889
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, with a three hundred hammer. Eight thirty one's owner.

890
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 3: He had a salary of four hundred thousand dollars a year,

891
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:09,919
Speaker 3: plus a twenty percent share of the combined profits of

892
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 3: eight thirty one subsidiaries, and that includes Noller and then

893
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 3: Hammer's own gallery. Plus there was a company American Express

894
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,720
Speaker 3: card that the company he didn't pay it, so between

895
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 3: two thousand and one and twenty twelve, Hammer ran up

896
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 3: one point two million dollars on the card, and then

897
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 3: that includes a ten thousand dollars trip to Paris with

898
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 3: his wife.

899
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 2: Are they paying like the minimum each month? Like, I

900
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 2: don't know how this works.

901
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 3: No, they just paid it off, but he's not paying it.

902
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 3: The company's paying it.

903
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,359
Speaker 4: Companies pays part of its budget. So whatever he runs

904
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 4: that they pay it off it off. So this is

905
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:43,879
Speaker 4: a basically credit line.

906
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:49,280
Speaker 3: Yes, OK, a perk. They bought him cars eight thirty

907
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,320
Speaker 3: one buck cars for Hammer, stuff like a five hundred

908
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 3: and twenty three thousand dollars Mercedes and a four hundred

909
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 3: and eighty two thousand dollars Rolls Royce. He turned around

910
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 3: and sold the Rolls Royce in two thousand and eight

911
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 3: for four hundred and fifty two thousand, and pocketed all

912
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 3: the cash from the sale, and.

913
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 2: He telled the buyer this is a Bentley.

914
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then he went as far as to list

915
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,240
Speaker 3: the cash from that sale as salary on this W two.

916
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 4: Because you know it was you know, it's a gift

917
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 4: to gifts a salary. It's oh, it's all like ins

918
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 4: and out things you wouldn't understand, hi fi.

919
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 3: According to art News quote, the point of exposing all

920
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 3: this was to prove that Hammer was reaping benefits directly

921
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 3: from Knoedler's profits on the rosales works and using that

922
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 3: money to support a lavish lifestyle.

923
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was dipping into the sugar baron pums too.

924
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. Are you aware of any board meetings that took

925
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,439
Speaker 3: place in Paris, kraw asked, regarding Hammer's trip. There none

926
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 3: that I'm aware of, Blankensheen said. So the trial's cooking along,

927
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 3: and then both Hammer and Friedman were set to be

928
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,760
Speaker 3: called to the stand. This is gonna get good. Hell yeah,

929
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 3: everyone's just like electric with anticipation fighting, but then nothing.

930
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 3: Court breaks for lunch and then they're like, well, there's

931
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 3: been this unexpected delay and things will start back up

932
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:11,720
Speaker 3: again tomorrow. Then tomorrow comes, jury's not there. The parties

933
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 3: had settled courts. Yeah, of course, they're apparently all very

934
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 3: happy and so Luke Nicas was Friedman's attorney. He talked

935
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 3: to Art News after the settlement and he was like, I,

936
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 3: you know, those six red flags are garbage. The plaintiff

937
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 3: brought a bogus case, but we still settled. And he

938
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 3: said there were why do you settle? Well, there were

939
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 3: too many other pending cases and other pending settlements on

940
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 3: the table work to get to it went all the

941
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 3: way through with the trial, it would have tanked all

942
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 3: the other settlements and they all would have won to

943
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 3: go to trial. So M. H. Miller, deputy editor of

944
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,280
Speaker 3: Art News, closed out the piece on this with this quote.

945
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:58,240
Speaker 3: I was surprised to see several of the Rosales fakes

946
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 3: hanging in Nicos's office, including the very first work that

947
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 3: Rosales showed to Friedman, a rothco and the pollock with

948
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 3: the misspelled signature beneath the pollock was a framed New

949
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 3: York Times article with the headline note to forgers, don't

950
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 3: forget the spell check. I'm just interested in the picture itself.

951
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:21,760
Speaker 3: Nica said, So, Sarah, what's your ridiculous takeaway?

952
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 4: The thing about lying, and I've been told this since

953
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:30,439
Speaker 4: I was a kid, is that the truth has less details. Yeah,

954
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 4: so when you get into like, oh, I've got a

955
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:36,959
Speaker 4: Swiss sugar baron, it's gotta pretty clear to people. Because

956
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 4: we're getting into hanky territory. It's starting to be a

957
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 4: bit suss. Things are too specific. Monshour Swiss, Miss I

958
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:45,800
Speaker 4: don't know about him.

959
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 2: So that's mine. What about you, Elizabeth?

960
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 3: I you know, I just this. I can't feel bad

961
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 3: for anybody really. I mean, like the Solace is, like

962
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 3: you know, I know they wanted this wonderful piece of art,

963
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 3: but like, you know, if that's your big complaint is

964
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 3: I've spent eight point three billion, and I like, you know,

965
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 3: no one's everyone's whole at the end of the day.

966
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, only feelings got hurt and lawyers and accountants

967
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 4: got paid.

968
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,399
Speaker 3: And so I mean, there's no in my opinion, there's

969
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 3: no way that the gallery and freedmen were unaware they knew, but.

970
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 2: There they are the people who give the art world

971
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 2: the reputation it has.

972
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:30,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, but the ones who paid the biggest price are

973
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 3: the low level ones who did the actual street work,

974
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 3: which typical. But yeah.

975
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 4: And the fact that they didn't have to publicly confess

976
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 4: to their crimes on the witness stand. Instead they settled

977
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 4: seems interesting because it's like you could if you knew,

978
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:45,360
Speaker 4: If you knew settling was an option, you could have

979
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 4: done that so long ago before you dragged it this

980
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 4: bar and ruined everything because they're like, no, we want

981
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 4: to ruin everything, and then we're gonna get out of it.

982
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 4: Just the part where we have to sit on the

983
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 4: hot seat.

984
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 3: Yep, there it is. Anyway, cats, fat cats. You know

985
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:00,839
Speaker 3: what I would like is a talk back.

986
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 6: He yeah, Oh my god, I let.

987
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:18,760
Speaker 5: Hello Zarah, Elizabeth and Producer D to my four legged

988
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 5: intern friends. I might need your help because my new

989
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,319
Speaker 5: mission in life is to bring Kaylutes back. I think

990
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 5: it's so unfair, Elizabeth that the world doesn't get to

991
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 5: see how high you can fly.

992
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:35,719
Speaker 3: Oh my god, thank you, my precious angel. Wait, that's

993
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 3: so good, because you know what that just shows you careful.

994
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 2: It's a really beautiful thing, your health, your wealth, right,

995
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 2: and if.

996
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:44,439
Speaker 3: You can figure out a way to do it, I'll

997
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 3: totally split some with you.

998
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 2: And you know we'll be benefit from you being.

999
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:51,359
Speaker 3: That high, right, right, we really would, because I mean

1000
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 3: I'm just barely hanging on.

1001
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1002
00:53:54,120 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 3: If I had Kaylid's amazingow.

1003
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 2: In every direction coming out of a cloud, I would.

1004
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:04,280
Speaker 3: They would have to write, like they'd write medical papers

1005
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 3: about how is this incredible feat of human existence? Well, coiluds, Yeah,

1006
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 3: so thank you for thank you for supporting me in

1007
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 3: my desire to become a drug addict. I appreciate that.

1008
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 3: I just want to say I'm about ludes. That's it

1009
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 3: for today. You can find us online at ridiculous Crime

1010
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 3: dot com. We're also at Ridiculous Crime on both Blue

1011
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:34,280
Speaker 3: Sky and Instagram. We're on YouTube at ridiculous Crime pod,

1012
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 3: email Ridiculous Crime at gmail dot com. Most importantly, as

1013
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 3: I always say, leave us a talkback on the iHeart

1014
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 3: app reach out. Ridiculous Crime is hosted by Elizabeth Dutton

1015
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 3: and Zaren Burnett, produced and edited by clapbergirl Air Dave Kusten,

1016
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 3: starring Emilie Rutger as Judith. Research is by Jerks and

1017
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 3: perlic expert Risa Brown and Girkin Pohl Dunk authenticator Jabari Davis.

1018
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 3: The theme song is by Bearer of Seven Red Flags

1019
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 3: Thomas Lee and Missing Bergatinios Diaz brother Travis Dutton. Post

1020
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 3: wardrobe is provided by Botany five hundred. Guest hair and

1021
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 3: makeup by Sparkleshot and Mister Andre. Executive producers are Art

1022
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 3: World accountant Ben Boleen and hipster jazz cat painter Guy

1023
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:32,879
Speaker 3: No Brown. We dis Crime, Say It one more Time

1024
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 3: Geequus Crime.

1025
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio. Four more podcasts.

1026
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 1: To my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1027
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,