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Speaker 1: is Prime Cuts, the best of the Colin Coward Podcast.

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Speaker 1: Apparently I created quite a kerfuffle with my Michael Jordan

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Speaker 1: opinion one last week, and where I said, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of mythology about Michael Jordan because a

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Speaker 1: lot of people thirty five and under who love him

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Speaker 1: never watched him actually play. It's just YouTube highlights something

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Speaker 1: to remember about Michael Jordan, and it's very unique in

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Speaker 1: the history of basketball. No other player has this, and

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Speaker 1: Michael is certainly as good as anybody I've ever seen, relentless,

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Speaker 1: great in crisis, laser focused, super competitive, loved watching him play.

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Speaker 1: I'm still a huge fan of Michael Jordan. But you

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Speaker 1: can criticize Magic Johnson who ended up in thirty percent

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Speaker 1: More finals. And you can certainly criticize Lebron James, who

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Speaker 1: has smashed every Michael Jordan record, which you can't criticize Michael. Why, well,

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Speaker 1: think about it in these terms. Think about how powerful

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Speaker 1: just ads are on TV or radio. My career has

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Speaker 1: been a series of reading ads or ads elevating all

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Speaker 1: my platforms. They can sell us soda, they can sell

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Speaker 1: us cars, they can sell us jewelry just by a

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Speaker 1: thirty second add Now, imagine how powerful an ad campaign

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Speaker 1: devoted entirely to you can be. The Air Jordan campaign

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Speaker 1: is the greatest marketing campaign in the history of our

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Speaker 1: domestic sports ever any athlete. Nothing's close. Michael made two

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Speaker 1: hundred and twenty five million last year, still on his shoes.

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Speaker 1: Just understand how powerful commercials are. And now an Air

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Speaker 1: Jordan campaign for twenty years, devoted to one human. It's

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Speaker 1: created a Teflon shield around Michael so that when he

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Speaker 1: punches Steve Kerr, well you know, He's just very competitive.

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Speaker 1: If Draymond Greene punches Jordan Poole, a cocky, trash talking reserve,

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Speaker 1: throw him out of the league. Draymond doesn't have the

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Speaker 1: protective shield, the power of Nike. Michael Jordan best friend,

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Speaker 1: Charles Barkley fifteen years Barkley goes on the air, does

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Speaker 1: his job is critical, He ghosts him, no longer talks

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Speaker 1: to him. Who does that protective shield? Baseball Wizard's mess,

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Speaker 1: failing as an owner, struggling with teammates, early pre Phil Jackson,

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Speaker 1: it's all protected. Nobody's saying. You can criticize Lebron, You

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Speaker 1: can criticize Kareem, you can criticize anybody, magic, Kobe Duncan.

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Speaker 1: You can't criticize Michael Jordan. That's why I call it mythology.

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Speaker 1: It's as if he never missed a shop. He had

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Speaker 1: lots of bad finals games, a couple against the Sonics,

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Speaker 1: a couple against the Utah Jazz. He's human. Michael's always

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Speaker 1: been great at elevating Michael. I said this last week

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Speaker 1: and I'll say it again, the two pills. Phil Jackson, Michael,

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Speaker 1: you're a selfish player. Do you want to win championships?

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Speaker 1: Or be a scoring champ. Trust your teammates more. Phil Jackson,

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Speaker 1: the smartest basketball coach at my entire lifetime, perhaps ever,

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Speaker 1: probably ever. Michael understood that that was the first Phil.

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Speaker 1: The other Phil was Phil Knight, the number one visionary

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Speaker 1: in American sports marketing in the history of my life.

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Speaker 1: The two pills now give Jordan credit. He was glamorous,

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Speaker 1: he was great, he was focused. He was capable of

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Speaker 1: being coached if he respected you. So he deserved a

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Speaker 1: lot of credit for that. I mean, people all over

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Speaker 1: this country try to help people and they just won't listen.

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Speaker 1: Michael listened and became probably the greatest basketball player ever

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Speaker 1: when he started trusting teammates and winning championships. But just

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Speaker 1: think of the power of the Air Jordan marketing brand.

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Speaker 1: It has created a shield around Michael that any criticism.

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Speaker 1: But Colin, he won at North Carolina. A lot of

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Speaker 1: people have won championships at Carolina. In Kansas and Yukon

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Speaker 1: and Duke, college basketball has always been lobsided. Six programs

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Speaker 1: have most of the talent. Where he won in the Olympics. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that team was pretty loaded. He had help beating Tunisia.

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Speaker 1: Nobody's discounting how great of a college player, how great

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Speaker 1: of an olympian, How great of a player, how great

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Speaker 1: of a marketer. But what I'm saying is there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of mythology as if he wasn't difficult early pre Pippin.

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Speaker 1: He's won exactly one playoff series pre Pippin, is that

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Speaker 1: he didn't need coaching, or that baseball wasn't a failure.

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Speaker 1: May I appreciate the effort, or that the Wizards wasn't

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Speaker 1: a disaster even as an owner. It was classic Michael.

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Speaker 1: He made a fortune owning the Hornets, but he could

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Speaker 1: control the narrative as a player. He couldn't as an owner.

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Speaker 1: People take things that happened to Michael real things like

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Speaker 1: he punched a teammate. That's a cheap shot. Well, Draymond

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Speaker 1: punched the teammate. Is that a cheap shot? All of

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Speaker 1: the issues are oas well. It was just very competitive.

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Speaker 1: Draymond's not competitive, but Colin Draymond works at the volume.

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Speaker 1: The point being is think of the power of the

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Speaker 1: Air Jordan marketing campaign, probably the most brilliant campaign ever.

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Speaker 1: And for the record, there's a reason it works. Michael's

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Speaker 1: great looking, Michael's got glamour Michael. The dress, the earring,

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Speaker 1: the smile, the game, the penash. Michael had it all right.

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Speaker 1: He's an easy guy to market. But take a deep breath.

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Speaker 1: You can criticize every basketball player ever except Michael. He

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Speaker 1: was human two. He had floss two. With the NFL

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Speaker 1: season over all, eyes in the sporting world turned everything

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Speaker 1: from the NBA to college hoops to the NHL. Plenty

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Speaker 1: of games to watch are even better, plenty of games

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Speaker 1: to get out of the house and actually go to.

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Speaker 1: That's why the best way to get your hands on

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Speaker 1: Download the game Time app, download it. Redeem code is

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Speaker 1: Download the app and of the code Collins Coli n

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Speaker 1: lowest price guaranteed. Well, we wish we had him on

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Speaker 1: more often. He's a busy guy. I'm not sure he's

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Speaker 1: got a law degree. I'm not sure if he's practicing law.

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Speaker 1: But it's college basketball, it's law, it's I'm sure a

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Speaker 1: lot of public speaking he is. Jay billis probably the

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Speaker 1: most area day college basketball analyst of my lifetime. And

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Speaker 1: my only complaint about Jay billis is I don't see

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Speaker 1: enough of Jay billis. So he comes on our podcast

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Speaker 1: and we feel lucky today. First of all, how are you?

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Speaker 1: How are things? Do you still practice? Still with my

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Speaker 1: law firm? I've been with the same law firm for

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Speaker 1: coming up on thirty years now, but I don't really

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Speaker 1: practice anymore. I'm still license to practice, and I do

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Speaker 1: my continuing legal education every year to keep my license up.

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Speaker 1: But if you need a name change or a divorce

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Speaker 1: or a ticket taken care of, I can handle that.

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Speaker 1: Other than that, I don't. I don't practice much. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I got about twelve parking tickets. I'll get back down that, Jay.

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Speaker 1: I think college basketball, if you take our domestic sports,

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Speaker 1: college in pro, is the toughest sport to coach. I

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Speaker 1: think it's really really difficult when you ask coaches. You know,

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Speaker 1: in college football, Nick Saban gets a kid for three

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Speaker 1: or four years John Calipari gets him for you know,

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Speaker 1: like a semester. I think it's really hard. That's why

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Speaker 1: Jay Wright, Roy Williams, Mike Shashevsky. I could see guys

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Speaker 1: saying this is this is insane. Then you add the

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Speaker 1: transfer portal. It's just this really difficult Jumbalaya. I think

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Speaker 1: to coach Am I wrong on that? Or do you

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Speaker 1: sense we're asking a lot now of college basketball coaches

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Speaker 1: and it's not realistic to think we're going to see

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Speaker 1: some burnout with these top coaches. Maybe, I mean I

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Speaker 1: agree with you maybe on Jay Wright that the job

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Speaker 1: has changed and he is at the tail end. He

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Speaker 1: could probably go another you know, five or six years

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Speaker 1: at great health and youth. I mean, I think Roy

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Speaker 1: Williams and Coach k quit because they were older. If

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Speaker 1: they were in their forties or fifties, I think they'd

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Speaker 1: adjust to this in no time and they wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: a problem with it. You know, these guys make a

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Speaker 1: ton of money now, so they can quit when they

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Speaker 1: feel like it. If But you know, when I was younger, Colin,

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Speaker 1: I don't know exactly how old you are, but I

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Speaker 1: grew up in Los Angeles and when John Wooden retired.

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Speaker 1: I was probably in sixth grade and he was sixty

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Speaker 1: five years old, and I thought he was the oldest

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Speaker 1: man that had ever lived. And now these guys, you know,

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Speaker 1: Jim Babbs like seventy eight, and Coach K's seventy six,

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Speaker 1: and Roy Williams is in his early seventies, and you know,

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Speaker 1: you got Jim Larenegas in his mid seventies and Leonard Hamilton.

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Speaker 1: All these guys are coaching way later than ever. And

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Speaker 1: you've got a lot of old school guys. And that's okay.

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Speaker 1: But one thing that's easier about college now is you

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Speaker 1: can get a good team overnight. You know, you can

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Speaker 1: lose a good team overnight too with the transfer portal.

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Speaker 1: But you know, the NC DOABLEA was the one to

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Speaker 1: put that rule in, and they put it in because

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Speaker 1: they were fighting over money and the transfer restriction was

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Speaker 1: making them look really bad. It was the equivalent of

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Speaker 1: a non compete provision and an employment contract and they

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Speaker 1: want to say, well, they're not employees, and they were

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Speaker 1: restricting them on where they'd go to school and make

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Speaker 1: them sit out like a like a non compete. It

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Speaker 1: is just kind of crazy. So I went back this morning,

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Speaker 1: knowing you were on and I went back and looked

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Speaker 1: at some of your teams, and I went back and

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Speaker 1: looked at I covered two Duke final fours, the Denver

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Speaker 1: game where they lost to the Rebels and then the

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Speaker 1: following year when they upset them. Grant Hill was the freshman.

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Speaker 1: But one of the things I looked at was scores.

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Speaker 1: And if you're twenty years old on a campus, you're saying,

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Speaker 1: right now, look at this defense. And my takeaway is, well,

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Speaker 1: the defense was good back in eighty eight ninety. The

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Speaker 1: differences you had juniors and seniors who were going to

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Speaker 1: play in the NBA on rosters is that does feel

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Speaker 1: like this has been a two or three year trend

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Speaker 1: where it's becoming more of a defensive tournament. By the

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Speaker 1: way I've watched every game, I've loved it. I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's quite as gifted offensive leak is the great

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Speaker 1: offensive players often pivot to professional basketball. Is that it

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Speaker 1: feels like, to me, Jay, this has been a defensive tournament.

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Speaker 1: Like I watched Tennessee Duke and I thought Tennessee's defense

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Speaker 1: is just closing down on Duke. I saw Michigan State today.

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Speaker 1: They shot twelve vercent on threes and they won, so

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Speaker 1: that it might take away the tournament. It feels good

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Speaker 1: defensive tournament. Am I wrong? No, you're right. But the

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Speaker 1: reason in my view that it feels different, like I

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Speaker 1: think the players now are more skilled than they were

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Speaker 1: thirty years ago. I don't even think it's close now.

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Speaker 1: Do we have the four year superstars that we had

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Speaker 1: back then? No, because the true superstars leave early. But

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Speaker 1: these guys are way more skilled, um than back in

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Speaker 1: the day. They can shoot it better, they can do everything.

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Speaker 1: The game is way more physical now. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: ridiculous on cuts that that Tennessee Duke game that you're referencing,

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Speaker 1: that was not a basketball game. That was a hockey game,

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Speaker 1: and it was officiated like a hockey game. Um, there

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Speaker 1: were there were fouls that were flagrant, fouls that were

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Speaker 1: not called flagrant, and I can't understand why. I've talked

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Speaker 1: to several officials about it, and all of them seem

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Speaker 1: to agree that that that was that should not have

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Speaker 1: happened that way. But we're seeing that more and more

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Speaker 1: that the game has become more physical. And when I

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Speaker 1: say physical, I'm not talking about physical on blockouts like

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Speaker 1: when when when I was playing back in the eighties,

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Speaker 1: you know that people thought about the Big East. Oh,

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Speaker 1: the Big East so physical, and it was less physical

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Speaker 1: than this. Now. The difference is they didn't have flagrant

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Speaker 1: fouls back then, so when you fouled somebody, you put

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Speaker 1: them in the wood and then a fight started. Now

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Speaker 1: if you do that, you get tossed out of the game.

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Speaker 1: And now a foul that would have been a normal

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Speaker 1: subway push back in the eighties is called the flagrant

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Speaker 1: more often. So we've cleaned a lot of that stuff up,

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Speaker 1: but the general contact now on drives, on screening, on

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Speaker 1: cuts is way more than it used to be. Those

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Speaker 1: would have been fouls in a heartbeat back in the

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Speaker 1: eighties and nineties, and now they're they're called incidental contact.

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Speaker 1: It's very rare on a number one loses early, But

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Speaker 1: to have three number ones lose early, is it coincidental?

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Speaker 1: Are the margins smaller between great teams and good teams?

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Speaker 1: What do you make of all the number one sees

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Speaker 1: getting bounced? Well, we've had this year there's not been

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Speaker 1: as much separation from sort of great to very good.

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Speaker 1: So the top seven or eight teams, I think remained

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Speaker 1: in the top ten and throughout the year, not because

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Speaker 1: they were that much better than everybody else. They were

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Speaker 1: just more consistent. And whether it was Perdue or Arizona,

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Speaker 1: you name it, they were more consistent at a high level.

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Speaker 1: But we expected there to be kind of a turbulent

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Speaker 1: ride through the tournament. I didn't. I didn't anticipate, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, Perdue losing to Fairley Dickinson. Um that that

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Speaker 1: that should never have happened. And and not to take

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Speaker 1: anything away from Fairley Dickinson, I was trying to explain,

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Speaker 1: like at one point, you know how in our job,

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Speaker 1: after a game, if you say, you know, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: like Perdue was horrible, that shouldn't happened, They're going to

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Speaker 1: give some credit to Fairley Dickinson. No, Fairlely Diket, Fairly

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Speaker 1: Dickinson did everything they needed to do to win. All

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Speaker 1: credit to them for winning the game. But let's not

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Speaker 1: let's not gloss over the Purdue sucked. And and it's

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Speaker 1: kind of like when when Buster Douglas beat Mike Tyson,

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Speaker 1: we weren't saying there's one of the great heavyweights of

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Speaker 1: all time. He just beat one of the great, Like

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Speaker 1: come on, my Tyson sucked and it didn't make Buster

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Speaker 1: Douglas great and that that was sort of the discussion

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Speaker 1: of that. So we've had some we've had some teams

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Speaker 1: stepping a big pile of it early on. Arizona did

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Speaker 1: it with Princeton, but Princeton is pretty good. Like that

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Speaker 1: was that Princeton played really well and Arizona played really poorly,

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Speaker 1: and so that was a combination of things. But Princeton

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Speaker 1: dominated Missouri. They're actually just as good as Missouri. You

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Speaker 1: know that if they played ten times, it would probably

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Speaker 1: be five and five. Um. But I will see what

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Speaker 1: happens when they move on. But it's just not been

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Speaker 1: one of those years where there's been great, you know,

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Speaker 1: great teams that have separated, like Baylor and get Zaga

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Speaker 1: did a couple of years ago. I want to talk

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Speaker 1: Calipari for a second, so you know, obviously the Anthony

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Speaker 1: Davis championship year, he's I think if he got a

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Speaker 1: second people would back off a little. There's a huge

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Speaker 1: gap between one and two. But I also think John

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Speaker 1: does care about the players. I've asked friends of mine

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Speaker 1: in coaching, Mark Few and other coaches, and they're like, listen,

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Speaker 1: John can coach. I watched today. Kansas State had real players.

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Speaker 1: They got a couple of all conference guys. So let's

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Speaker 1: not pretend that you know Kentucky's players are here in

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Speaker 1: Kansas State down there, they got Wildcats have real good players.

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Speaker 1: Is it fair though, to say for the talent, sometimes

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Speaker 1: they've underachieved. How do you how do you view Calipari's

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Speaker 1: Kentucky run because it was wobbly a bit this year. Well,

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Speaker 1: cal shocked me when he went to Kentucky. You know,

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Speaker 1: I was still and I've had periods of my life

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Speaker 1: and career where I get stuck in old school thinking.

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Speaker 1: And when he got to Kentucky and recruited that John Wall,

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Speaker 1: Eric Bledsoe, DeMarcus Cousins group, and he was going to

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Speaker 1: go with all freshmen, sort of the one and done thing,

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Speaker 1: I thought, can't win that way, Like you might be

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Speaker 1: able to win regular season game, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: win a championship that way. And I was so wrong

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Speaker 1: like like that. He championed that and it was incredibly successful,

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Speaker 1: and I think he's an unbelievable coach, and I agree

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Speaker 1: with you. I think he does care about the players

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Speaker 1: at the at the highest level. Now you know, Cal

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Speaker 1: can come off publicly like a used car salesman of

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Speaker 1: times trying to explain stuff to people, but he's an

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Speaker 1: unbelievably good guy, Like he's a really good person and

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Speaker 1: a good guy. I do think, and I've not talked

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Speaker 1: to him about this, and I should if, especially if

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Speaker 1: I'm going to say what I'm about to say, but

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Speaker 1: I think he over estimated the transfer portal and where

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Speaker 1: the game was headed, Like he was ahead on the

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Speaker 1: one and done thing. He was first, and then coach

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Speaker 1: k kind of followed him in that and realized, Hey,

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Speaker 1: we're playing against these guys and someone want to come here,

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Speaker 1: you might as well. We need to start taking them.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Cal went into the transfer portal last

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Speaker 1: year and his teams aren't as talented. Um they're they're good,

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Speaker 1: but they're not as talented as they've been. That team

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Speaker 1: he had in twenty fifteen, that was thirty eight no

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Speaker 1: before they lost to Wisconsin. I really believe this Wisconsin

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Speaker 1: was the only team that could have beaten him that year,

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Speaker 1: the only team because of the way they played and

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Speaker 1: how old they were and the type of team they had.

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Speaker 1: But you know, how do you how do you have

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Speaker 1: a program like that, that's that's consistently you know, great,

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Speaker 1: and then if you have a down year, people are

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Speaker 1: losing their minds because it's not like the guys that

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Speaker 1: are recruiting, the four year guys are outpacing outpacing Cow.

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Speaker 1: They're not. But the last two years, you know, they

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Speaker 1: just haven't been Kentucky because I don't think they've been

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Speaker 1: as talented. Like They've brought in really good players that

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Speaker 1: came from somewhere else, but they're not They're not lottery

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Speaker 1: picks like he's had. I'm a believer in nil and

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Speaker 1: I'm a believer in transper portalum. One of the things

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Speaker 1: I did say in ball, I said, I think I

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Speaker 1: can be pro something and there has to be guardrails.

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Speaker 1: I can be pro sports gambling, but think there need

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Speaker 1: to be certain guardrails. I said in football, I think

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Speaker 1: you should the first game starts and the last game ends.

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Speaker 1: You can't transfer. Then I don't want a Wolverine transferring

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Speaker 1: to Ohio State before the game and taking like trade secrets.

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Speaker 1: That was my thing. It's just just put some guardrails up.

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Speaker 1: I'm good with all of it. But then again, we've

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Speaker 1: had coaches you know leave you know before the season's over.

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Speaker 1: You've been a big proponent of NIL transfer portal. Take

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Speaker 1: on my guardrail comment. Should we just have no guardrails?

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Speaker 1: Are there anything? Is there anything about either basketball or

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Speaker 1: college football transferring or nil that that does worry you?

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Speaker 1: It doesn't worry me. But I think there can and

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Speaker 1: should be reasonable regulation to everything. And and your point,

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Speaker 1: your example, and I know was taken to the extreme

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Speaker 1: to make a point of you know, a player transferring,

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Speaker 1: you know, before a bowl game to their art tribal.

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Speaker 1: We don't have to worry about that. That's not an issue.

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Speaker 1: That's not going to happen. And you know, nobody's going

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Speaker 1: to do that, just like you wouldn't have an assistant

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Speaker 1: coach take a job before a game. I mean, they're

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Speaker 1: the ones that have more trade secrets than the players,

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Speaker 1: and they move around like crazy, including to their art tribals.

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Speaker 1: So that's not an issue. The biggest issue that the

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Speaker 1: NCAA has with all of this is on the legal side.

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Speaker 1: You know, when they act in concert, it's a cartel

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Speaker 1: and and they're running a foul of federal anti trust

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Speaker 1: law and all this stuff that the NC is talking

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Speaker 1: about about, Well, we can't make the players employees. Yes

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Speaker 1: you can. These schools employ thousands of students annually, Like

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Speaker 1: there's a school in my home my home state that

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Speaker 1: employs six thousand of their own students a year. Of

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Speaker 1: course they can do it. They don't want to, and

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Speaker 1: they want Congress to bail them out. The problem we

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Speaker 1: have now is is because they wanted to just do

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Speaker 1: the nil thing, they can't. They can't control any of it.

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Speaker 1: And if they just paid the players and made them employees,

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Speaker 1: they'd be able to control it like they controlled their coaches,

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Speaker 1: like they control their staff members, like they controlled their

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Speaker 1: administ administrators. It's not that hard, but we're making it

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Speaker 1: really hard because they just don't want to do it,

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Speaker 1: and we get all these excuses about will you start

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Speaker 1: paying players, then goodbide all these other sports. No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: none of that's true. They're not going to cancel all

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Speaker 1: these sports. You know, they always ask where's the money

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Speaker 1: going to come from? They asked that when I was planning,

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Speaker 1: where's the money going to come from? And then they

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Speaker 1: signed these megamedia deals and the you know, so much

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Speaker 1: of the money that the athletic department that runs through

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Speaker 1: there goes back to the school. They'll say, well, the

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Speaker 1: scholarships are so expensive. Really, well, where are you paying

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Speaker 1: that money. They're paying it to the school. So they

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Speaker 1: have an athletic department account and they pay it to

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Speaker 1: the school. They're not out of nickel. That school's not

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Speaker 1: out of a nickel for a scholarship. And years ago,

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Speaker 1: what the NCAA schools did was they they basically said,

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Speaker 1: all right, the athletic departments have to be self sustaining.

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Speaker 1: But I don't think they imagined that they were going

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Speaker 1: to make this much money. So the schools are charging

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Speaker 1: these crazy rates for food service and you know, rent

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Speaker 1: and maintenance and all this stuff. It's going back to

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Speaker 1: the school, so they're taking a huge chunk of that

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Speaker 1: and huge, huge salaries are being paid. Gigantic staffs are

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Speaker 1: being put together. You know, you mentioned Colin when you

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Speaker 1: were covering Duke in ninety ninety one, I was a

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Speaker 1: graduate assistant. I was out of the staff that I

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Speaker 1: was an assistant coach, a grad assistant. When we went

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Speaker 1: on a road trip, we flew commercial and took one

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Speaker 1: bus when we got there. So it's one bus. They

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Speaker 1: have to have two now to carry all the staff.

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Speaker 1: You know, so the staff and the players are now

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Speaker 1: two of these gigantic coach bus is that you take

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Speaker 1: in Europe, you know, and these things. These athletic departments

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Speaker 1: are bigger than the Pentagon. Now. They got plenty of money,

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Speaker 1: and it's a it's not a concern paying the players.

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Speaker 1: They just don't want to and we're gonna do it

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Speaker 1: at some point, whether it's five years, three years, whatever,

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Speaker 1: they're going to decide it is cleaner and easier to

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Speaker 1: sign these players to contracts. They'll retain them better, and

424
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: then they'll they'll have control over what an il deals

425
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 1: they can have. Then if they're paying them, just like

426
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 1: our companies pay us, they can tell us what we

427
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: can and can't do. They buy that right through the

428
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: employment contract. It's really as simple. It works for the

429
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: rest of the free world. The idea that it won't

430
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: work for college athletes is kind of absurd. So Mike Shashevsky, Um,

431
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: maybe it's because I covered him. I've I've said this

432
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: the other day on my show. I said, Duke is

433
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: the greatest team sport success story of my sportscasting career.

434
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,439
Speaker 1: In forty years, they've had one losing season and that

435
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 1: was the back surgery season or coach k couldn't walk.

436
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: They went nine and three and then he just literally

437
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 1: couldn't walk. There's nothing else like it. That's double the

438
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,199
Speaker 1: Patriots dynasty, which in itself is absurd considering it's a

439
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: regulated violence, players get hurt. Makes no sense at all

440
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: to have a football dynasty for twenty years. But I

441
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,479
Speaker 1: read the Ian O'Connor book. I love. I think Ian's

442
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: just stupendous, and you know, it's funny. I read it

443
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 1: and the criticisms of Mike, and I have a lot

444
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: of respect for Ian. He's not out there to just

445
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 1: throw out haymakers. I found them almost likable that you know,

446
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 1: Mike is a fighter, you know, the army background, his size, personally,

447
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: it made me dislike Bob Knight more and like Mike

448
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: Zhevsky more, just because the battle and he wanted to

449
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 1: carve his own way and he didn't want to be

450
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 1: seen in the shadow of Bobby after a while, which

451
00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 1: is I completely understand that when you hear that and

452
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 1: the hair have been critics of Mike's offense, wasn't very creative,

453
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: or he coached the Olympic team. It's just none of

454
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 1: it lands for me. Maybe I'm just, maybe I'm not,

455
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: Maybe I have a confirmation bias that I just I've

456
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: always liked him. Was there ever a criticism of coach

457
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 1: k and you went, that's on target, that's a fair,

458
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: because I when I read books and articles, I'm always like,

459
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: it just doesn't land to me. I think he's authentic.

460
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: I think he's a fighter. I think he's tough. I

461
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: think he's super smart. As you noted earlier in the

462
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: One and Done, he's flexible, he acknowledges when he's wrong.

463
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: Was there ever any criticism you heard of him and thought,

464
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: maybe that's fair? I'm sure there has been. I can't

465
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: think of an example, because he's like I love him.

466
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: You know, I've known him since I was seventeen years old.

467
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: There's probably I don't think this is an overstatement. I

468
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: wouldn't be doing anything i'm doing now if it weren't

469
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: for him. I might be doing something like it. But

470
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have gone to law school if not for him.

471
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have I don't think I would have been

472
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: in broadcasting if not for him. I certainly wouldn't have

473
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: had the basketball life i've had if not for him.

474
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: You know, he made it possible for me to go

475
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 1: to law school. He offered me a spot on his staff,

476
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: and then he was very helpful in getting me into

477
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: law school and convincing the law school that I could

478
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: I could work as a coach and go to school

479
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: at the same time. Nobody wanted that to happen at Duke,

480
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: and he made it happen. And he told me at

481
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: the time, he goes, if this doesn't work out, you

482
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 1: can always quit. And I didn't know whether you meant

483
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 1: quit law school or quit coaching. But I still never

484
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: asked him that. But when I was coming out of

485
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 1: high school, you know, I was one of these players

486
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 1: where you know, when you know, when you're in high

487
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: school you become a good player. You know, local paper

488
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 1: or the LA Times or something does a story on

489
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: you and they ask you, what do you want to

490
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: do after basketball? And I didn't have an answer. I

491
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: didn't know. And so at that time, like Frank Gifford

492
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: was in broadcasting, on Drysdale was in broadcasting. So I said, well,

493
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: maybe broadcasting. And all the coaches that were recruiting me

494
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 1: read that, and Coach Ka did something about it, like

495
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 1: others would Introduce you to somebody at the school that

496
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: was in the communications department, give you a tour of it.

497
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: Coach K introduced me to Chuck Howard, who was a

498
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: big time producer at ABC Sports, and I got a

499
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 1: job working for ABC Sports as a production assistant. During

500
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 1: the summertime. I was a runner basically, so I did

501
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: the I did. I did the Olympics and eighty four

502
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: in LA. I did Monday night baseball. Um I did.

503
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: I used to do bowling. I did bowling events with

504
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: Chris Schenkel and Nelson Burton Junior, and um I got.

505
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: I got all this. It was awesome. I got all this.

506
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: I met all these people, some of whom I still

507
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: worked with today. And that got me. That got me

508
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: in the door. And he was very thoughtful about, Okay,

509
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: this is what you want to do. Here's how we

510
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: will make it happen. And he was like some Svengali

511
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: doing it. He was trying to help you. And and

512
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: he thought, hey, maybe I wanted to get into coaching,

513
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: offered me a spot on his staff or but he

514
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: knew I wanted to go to law school, so he

515
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: greased the skins for that to happen, and Uh, you know,

516
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: without him doing that, I don't I don't know what

517
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: I where I would have been. I don't think I

518
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: would have been selling pencils on the street somewhere. I

519
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: think I would have been okay, But but my life

520
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: would have looked a lot different if I hadn't said,

521
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: you know, I want to play for you, and when

522
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: I when I did, When I committed to him out

523
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: of high school, he was the least well known and

524
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,719
Speaker 1: least accomplished coach that was recruiting me. I had no

525
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 1: idea who he was when he called me the first time,

526
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: no clue, never heard of him, and I just really

527
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: liked him and throughout the four years I played and

528
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: after that. Um, he's not like, he is not perfect.

529
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: He makes mistakes like everybody else. UM, and he's ultra competitive,

530
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: but off the like one thing he never did. He

531
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: may he may jump you in prac this and you

532
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: feel like you're the worst player it's ever played. He

533
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: does not carried off the floor as soon as practice

534
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: is over. He may still be pissed off for a while,

535
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: but as soon as practice is over he likes you again,

536
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: like he's good. Now back on the floor, you better

537
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: do what you're supposed to do. The next day, he'll

538
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: jump you again, but he never like a lot of

539
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: guys carried off the floor, and he doesn't do that.

540
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: The tournament's heating up. No better place to get in

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574
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: I did watch the movie The Air movie about the

575
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Speaker 1: early version of Nike Sonny Vacaro and Michael Jordan, and

576
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: Michael's mom plays a key figure in this movie. She's

577
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: really the star of the movie. And I thought, as

578
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: I watched the movie, I've been very critical of Michael

579
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: through the years, saying that Nike's Air Jordan commercial is

580
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: the greatest domestic ad campaign of my life, and it

581
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: is created almost a reaganlike shield, a Teflon shield around Michael,

582
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: when if you simply acknowledge previous failings, you're considered a hater. Well,

583
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: Sam Smith, who what's the original critic of Michael? The

584
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: only one? Back in nineteen ninety one, The Jordan Rules,

585
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: a magnificent book on the turbulent season with Michael Jordan

586
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: and the Bulls New York Times bestseller. It was the

587
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: talk of the literary sports world for several years. He

588
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: got a Lifetime Achievement Award, Pro Basketball Writers Association, Kurt

589
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: Goudy Media Award Hall of Fame. Currently writes for Bulls

590
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: dot Com. And whenever I'm critical of Jordan, as I

591
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: watched that movie, I always get major pushback. And I've

592
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: said this before that. You know, Michael would punch a

593
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: player and they would say, well, he's just very competitive.

594
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: Draymond Green punches a guy should be thrown out of

595
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: the league. And I think, you know, it's part of

596
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: that smile and charisma. When you released the book, you

597
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: obviously knew you were Michael was wildly popular. Did you

598
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: expect the avalanche criticism? Did you know it was coming? Colin?

599
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: Let me say first, if Michael punched somebody and his

600
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,839
Speaker 1: knuckles were bruised, that was on the other guy. And

601
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: I think that's what we have to mention now. I was,

602
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: you know, probably talked about that, and I'm frankly pleased

603
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: that you're still on the air being critical of Jordan Um.

604
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:26,879
Speaker 1: You know, there's a thought police about that these days. Yeah,

605
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: I was probably pretty naive about it, being a reporter,

606
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,919
Speaker 1: having been an investigative reporter over the years, I figured, well,

607
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: if I just write what's true, you know, what's the

608
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: problem with that? And so it was. It was an

609
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: incredible you know, it was over thirty years ago, and

610
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 1: you know, one thing I was kind of pleased about

611
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: and pleased about a lot of things, you know, with

612
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: the last dance documentary. But one is that Michael sort

613
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,439
Speaker 1: of copped all this finally took thirty years, but said, yeah, yeah,

614
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: I could be a jerk, but you know what a

615
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: reason for it. And so back then it was saying, yeah,

616
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: you know, the guy's tough to live with and people,

617
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: because as you refer to those commercials, he was really

618
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 1: I mean marketed as kind of you know, the cliche

619
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: all American kai. I remember one of the Coca Cola sponsors,

620
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: he he like leaped up into a treehouse to deliver

621
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: the Coca Cola and he I mean, and they made

622
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 1: a point of this. They were doing you know, Chevrolet

623
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: apple Pie. They were doing those conniversials to make it

624
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: as American as you know, patriotic and could be. And

625
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: then so you know, I sort of write a book

626
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 1: about behind the scenes in basketball. He said, well, this

627
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 1: is not Michael Jordan. I saw him in the commercials.

628
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 1: He's nothing like that, right. You know. It's not that

629
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: I'll defend him, but I was talking about this with

630
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: somebody the other day. A lot of us resent or

631
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: regret what we did in our twenties, but we did

632
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: it for a reason. We were immature. I mean, I

633
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: grew up, divorced, kid on my own own, not a

634
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: lot of money in the family, and I was a

635
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 1: pretty relentless workaholic in my twenties, and that's what I

636
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: thought I needed and was mature enough to handle it

637
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 1: that time. And I look at Michael and I say,

638
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: people say, oh, he was rough on teammates, but the

639
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: Pistons were tackling him. The Celtics were doing about the same.

640
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: The East was loaded and physical, and it was all

641
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,399
Speaker 1: allowed by the league. And I say to myself, relentless

642
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: was the only way for Michael to get through it.

643
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 1: He was being attacked defensively. And could I argue that

644
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,879
Speaker 1: we do things out throughout the course of our life

645
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: because it gets us to a better place. And the

646
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: East was bullyball, Nicks, Celtics, Pistons, and Michael was the

647
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: target for almost all of it. And he was just

648
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: he was building up a medal and a toughness in

649
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 1: that Chicago bull team that was necessary. I mean, that's

650
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: exactly right, because you know what gets overlooked because it

651
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan came into the NBA out of the eighty

652
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: four Olympics game winning shot in North Carolina. You know,

653
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 1: with such fanfare to Dunking and the Sports Illustrated covers

654
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: and all that. The notion was, well, he's going to

655
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 1: succeed right away. But at the same time, simultaneously, what

656
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 1: Jerry Kross is doing with the Bulls is it's rebuilding basically.

657
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: You know, it has Jordan out front, but he's basically

658
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: they had a lot of high draft picks, so what

659
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 1: decent players on Land to Woolrich and Sydney Green and

660
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: players who could have developed or did develop in other places,

661
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: and he traded all of them off essentially for draft picks.

662
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: Draft picks, like you know, they got Pipping and they

663
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: got hors Grant and he was sort of it wasn't

664
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: called that then, you know, because teams didn't really dump

665
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 1: for the draft back then because they have infectly needed

666
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: the tendence. And really Jordan should have been with the Pacers.

667
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 1: One of the great overlooked stories is the reason Portland

668
00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: had the pick was the Pacers had lost James Edwards

669
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 1: and for a tendence needed a center, so they traded

670
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 1: to pick to Portland and that's how Portland ended up.

671
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 1: You know, I'm using for Sambooie and all. But anyway,

672
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 1: so Jordan comes in and the notion as well. He's

673
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: his great figure. He's got to compete against bird Magic

674
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,760
Speaker 1: Isaiah and they've got Bill Teems and he's looking around

675
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: but on his roster and goes, well, you know, I've

676
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: got I don't what have I got here? I got

677
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 1: Kyle Macy and I as you know, and so you

678
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 1: know that was sort of a joke about. You know,

679
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 1: they said, well, Jordan couldn't make guys better, and he

680
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: used to say, well, yeah, if I had James Worthy

681
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: and Kareem I could make him better. You know, I

682
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: got Brown and said, they all three, I can't make

683
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 1: them better. Um the MJ documentary, I thought, I remember

684
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: when they made um the movie Wall Street about Gordon

685
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: Gecko and Michael Douglas and Oliver Stone said, I didn't

686
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: try to glamorize him and make him popular, but everybody,

687
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,919
Speaker 1: oh every stockbro wanted to be Gordon Gecko, and the

688
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: faults of Gecko became sort of romanticized and Sam when

689
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: I watched the MJ documentary, Now, obviously MJ had some

690
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: say it, but even the warts and uh, you know

691
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: Will Purdue saying things about it. Yeah, I found it.

692
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: Maybe it's because the league is, you know, it's it's

693
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: more of a three point shooting league. It's more skilled,

694
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: but more finesse. I found it incredibly likable. I'm like,

695
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: I missed the layering, I missed the toughness. I missed

696
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 1: I missed guys not all being best friends. I was.

697
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: I fell into it, Sam, I I that documentary. I

698
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 1: made me, like Michael Moore. What was your takeaway on it? Well,

699
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: a couple of things. The one takeaway that I like,

700
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: and it's sort of one of the things I was

701
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 1: criticized was his Hall of Fame speech where he pointed,

702
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: you know, the guy who beat him, you know, got

703
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: on them, you know, got on the varsity ahead of him,

704
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: and he brought in different guys over the years that

705
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 1: he you know, he had these um challenges by and

706
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: people said, well, this is this is horrible. You know,

707
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 1: at the Call of Fame he was sort of blaming

708
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: guys for this time, and no, this is this is

709
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: great because he showed you exactly who he is and

710
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: who he's always been. And you know that that's the

711
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: attraction of it. You know what you said the Jordan

712
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: rules when I wrote it, and one of the reasons

713
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: why I was surprised, is because I saw it as

714
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: as a sympathetic portrait, you know, if you you know,

715
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 1: and I know, you know, our version of Twitter back

716
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 1: then was headlines and things taken out of you know,

717
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 1: contacts or whatever. What people would complain it to us about.

718
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: You took it out of context. The headline didn't represent

719
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,879
Speaker 1: the story and all. And so there was a lot

720
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:50,919
Speaker 1: of that with the Jordan rules, you know, just like now.

721
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: People didn't always read back then either. Uh. When I depicted,

722
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 1: you know, my depiction because I'd like Jordan, I've been

723
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: around them a long time. I really appreciated his competitiveness

724
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: and his zeal and you know, his willingness to try

725
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: to pull this group along, you know, kind of with him, uh,

726
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 1: and what he went through, how the Pistons attacked him,

727
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: you know, but not only that, you know, I remember

728
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 1: the one year at the MVP boat. Uh. You know,

729
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 1: Magic was very close with Isaiah. We were sitting in

730
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 1: a locker room and it came down, Uh Magic had

731
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: won the MVP and all that reported, and he was

732
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: very gracious and for the book. We had a good

733
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 1: relations on sitting with him in the locker room and

734
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 1: it happened to be in Detroit and every all reporters

735
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 1: when he turns to me and he goes anybody but

736
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: that guy meaning magic, meaning they held up Magic all

737
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 1: the time, and saying he's the guy who made everybody better,

738
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,479
Speaker 1: not me. Yeah, and so that you know that sort

739
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 1: of saying. So I sort of viewed it sympathetically, but

740
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: you know the notion of the fights, and you know

741
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 1: the taking hars his grand dinner and you know you

742
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,919
Speaker 1: don't deserve to eat because you played there. It sort

743
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: of looked both ways. Sam Smith, joining us writer for

744
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 1: the Bulls dot Com. It is one of the things

745
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 1: that is attractive about Michael. I couldn't watch a ten

746
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 1: part Brady or Lebron documentary, and that social media has

747
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: shown me all I ever need to see about any player,

748
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 1: what they eat, their family. I get now, their opinions

749
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 1: on vaccines, their political opinions. You know Michael. As we

750
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: peel the layers back on Michael and the Air movie,

751
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 1: I didn't know that much about him because we didn't

752
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 1: know that much about anybody. And I think what makes

753
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: Michael appealing to me the journey for basketball, Sam was

754
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 1: not as grooved as it is today through Au it's

755
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 1: just not it's just groove. Now they're all friends. Nobody's

756
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: battling for a piece of the pie. Otto porter can

757
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 1: make two hundred million dollars. It's a different world. And

758
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 1: I do think the struw goal, although Michael's struggle is

759
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 1: less than others. Hell, the Jerry Kraus stuff, it is fascinating.

760
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: I'm watching the sonny of a Cao stuff and you

761
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: know the toughness of his mother. There's parts of the

762
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: privacy of Michael. You were on an inner circle for

763
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 1: a long time, but I view him now it's a

764
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 1: bit of a private figure. How would you describe that?

765
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: Even as an owner of the Bobcats, he never really

766
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: talked much, right, And actually that was what was great

767
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: about the documentary The Last Stance, because it really was

768
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: the first time he sat down and showed you who

769
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: he was kind of relaxed. Didn't kind of do it

770
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: through a commercial, because you know, he was always he

771
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: always felt it wasn't so much he was wanted to

772
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 1: promote himself, but he felt an obligation. I mean, I mean,

773
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 1: he really had a good upbringing. And I didn't see

774
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 1: the Sneaker movie yet, but his mother, I know, had

775
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: a huge part. He was very close with his father.

776
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 1: They were really best friends more than father's son. Um.

777
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: You know, an at loss was tremendous, but he always

778
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: felt as a responsibility and obligation to his sponsors. So

779
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: to remember him talking about that to act in a

780
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:25,319
Speaker 1: certain way as a result of that. And so you know,

781
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: he finally now he saw over the years and I

782
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 1: credited him for that. I actually I remember he wasn't

783
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 1: selling himself. I remember one time, and he'd become tremendously popular,

784
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: and he was popular all over the world. I mean

785
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: the I remember the North Korean the dad who who

786
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:52,879
Speaker 1: who gone? Had a crazy son's there, but they were

787
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: sending foot bulls memorabilia back then from North Korea, um,

788
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 1: you know. And and when David Stern went to China, uh,

789
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: he always he always talked about you know, China didn't

790
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: know anything about the NBA. They hadn't heard of anybody.

791
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: But they had asked him about the red Oxen and

792
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: the bowl. That's all they knew, you know. And so

793
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: but as a result, you know, he understood that. But

794
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 1: at the same time, and we see why he's made

795
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:23,919
Speaker 1: fortune billionaire whatever. I remember a Japanese company had contacted

796
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 1: him and said they would pay him a million dollars

797
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: for an appearance, and he and he and this was

798
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: like nineteen eighty eight, eighty nine something like that, and

799
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 1: he said, I'm not just going to sell myself like that.

800
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do that because so so you

801
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: know this sort of uh, I'm not surprised that he's

802
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: he's he's that way now and that's why the documentary

803
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: was great, because you're not going to see him otherwise,

804
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: he's not going to be around. He you know, the

805
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 1: NBA has brought out everybody, Bill Russell and Oscar robertson

806
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 1: All Star Games and finals and they named the awards.

807
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 1: He's the one who never showed up anywhere. You know,

808
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 1: you never see him anywhere. He's at all these All

809
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: Star games, you know, for Nike, but you've never seen

810
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 1: him in public. And you know, I wish he would

811
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: a little more, but you know, he he doesn't want

812
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 1: to sell himself and cheap in it. Really and it's

813
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 1: really been smart. Yeah, I mean privacy and not knowing

814
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: everything about you. I remember Jack Nicholson, the Great Owner,

815
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: saying he wouldn't go on these shows. When he was

816
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: promoting a movie and he's like, why would I give

817
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 1: me away for free? I want that theater experience to

818
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 1: be really special. And I think about that all the time.

819
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: I you know, I see everybody putting their meals and

820
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: their vacations on Instagram, and I think, you know, it's

821
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: okay to have some private stuff in your life. I

822
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 1: don't need to market my every time I go walk

823
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:57,280
Speaker 1: on the beach in Florida. The ownership in Charlotte Sam,

824
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 1: I've said this, and it may be unfair that Michael

825
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 1: was Ohays. First of all, he was a very good

826
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 1: decision maker. David Falk, Phil Knight, Phil Jackson. He tended

827
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: to have excellent judgment and be pretty picky on the

828
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: people that he would choose to guide his journey. So

829
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: he had and by the way, I'm watching Lamar Jackson.

830
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: Now he has his mom as an agent. Now he

831
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,280
Speaker 1: got an agent to day that's not registered. Some guys

832
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: don't make great decisions Michael made and Lebron's done this.

833
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: Michael made very solid decisions Sonny Vacaro on the people

834
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,240
Speaker 1: that pitched him and he listened to. I didn't expect

835
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: the ownership with Charlotte to be great, because I always

836
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: thought Michael was great at elevating Michael. But to be

837
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,879
Speaker 1: an executive, a coach, or an owner, it's a lot

838
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: of giving. It is, to some degree elevating others. Is

839
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,280
Speaker 1: it unfair characteristic to say Michael was better at elevating Michael,

840
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: his brand and his net worth than sometimes elevating those

841
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: around him. He didn't have the pay shians for it.

842
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: I don't know about that. That's a hard one. First

843
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 1: of all. You know, ownership management is an awful lot

844
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: of luck. You know, the Bulls lucked in the Jordans

845
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 1: in eighty four. Had they not, they probably they wouldn't

846
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 1: have had any titles they would have had, you know,

847
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 1: twenty five fifty years, the Phoenix Suns have never won

848
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: a title despite whatever, and so you know, you got

849
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:28,280
Speaker 1: to get lucky. Charlotte has never gotten lucky. I remember, Uh,

850
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 1: you know, people like to think fans, media, whatever, that

851
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 1: just because you've succeeded in something that you'll succeed uh,

852
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: you know, because of what you did and your specialty,

853
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: you know. And it's sort of like all these coaches

854
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:46,280
Speaker 1: who sort of stood next to uh Bill Parcels uh

855
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 1: you know, just because you're you're you're around somebody who's successful,

856
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you're going to be successful. And so you know,

857
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: it's difficult to sort of pick guys. Michael, you know,

858
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 1: you know, had difficulty. You know, who exactly could he

859
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: trust in our situations? And so I remember when the Bulls,

860
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 1: you know, ninety eight they broke up and you know

861
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: which in the last dance, and so the fans in

862
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: the media, the notion was, well, let Michael run the team.

863
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 1: You know, he's a winner, you know, And so we

864
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 1: don't hear that much anymore anymore since the Charlott's situation.

865
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: And I don't think it's a case of Michael being

866
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,319
Speaker 1: concerned about celebrating himself. I don't think that what he

867
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: was about. It's just, you know, you don't go to

868
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,919
Speaker 1: school for management of a sports team. There's no there's

869
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 1: no degree, you know, there's no tests like to be

870
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: a CPA or a lawyer or something like that. So

871
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 1: you know, who does these things? How do you do it? Um?

872
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's a lot of luck, and he

873
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 1: just hasn't gotten lucky. I mean, that's sort of a

874
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:54,760
Speaker 1: simplified version of it. Um he's been in the lottery.

875
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 1: You know, you get your bad you don't get Lebron,

876
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,280
Speaker 1: you get you know, you get, you get the second

877
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:03,879
Speaker 1: guy makes tremendous differences. And so you know, now now

878
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: I see he's going to cash out. You know, in

879
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: the league wanted him in. David Stern wanted him in

880
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 1: and basically almost gave him that franchise, you know, to

881
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 1: have him involved in the game. Basically, I think he

882
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 1: just paid off the debts. And so one thing Michael

883
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 1: has always done. He used to joke about OPM, you know,

884
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:24,280
Speaker 1: the way to operate a businesses with other people's money.

885
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 1: So he was always he was always bright about that,

886
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:31,320
Speaker 1: and he always always understood equity and he always understood value.

887
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 1: And he's tried, but you can see in the last

888
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,839
Speaker 1: couple of years he's lost the enthusiasm for it, just

889
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 1: because it's so hard. The irony is now, you know,

890
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: you know, on the ownership, the governors whatever they call themselves.

891
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:49,280
Speaker 1: Now Michael got was put in charge of the labor

892
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: committee of the owners and he was appalled at these

893
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 1: salaries that they started paying, you know, because you know,

894
00:50:57,840 --> 00:50:59,959
Speaker 1: he made at the time when he made the thirty

895
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: million it was, you know, ten million more. Patrick Ewing

896
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 1: I think made eighteen or nineteen, and next highest were

897
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 1: like ten or twelve. You know, so he's making double

898
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: or triple whatever anyone is, and you know, now it's

899
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: sort of, you know, on the bottom side of next steeling.

900
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: He was just sort of appalled that the salaries that

901
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: were becoming right of that. But I don't think it

902
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 1: was an ego thing as much as it's really a

903
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:31,280
Speaker 1: hard thing to do. When you look back at covering Michael,

904
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,959
Speaker 1: did you instantly know because the first couple of years

905
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: I can remember Orlando Woolridge, if I recall Quentin Daily,

906
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 1: it was guys that needed the ball, and Michael, you know,

907
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 1: it was not going to suffer those guys gladly like

908
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 1: he wanted the ball and he was better, and he

909
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 1: was I imagine at practice was letting them know on

910
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 1: a daily basis he was better. But when did you know,

911
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,800
Speaker 1: because he did an average a ton of points in college.

912
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,359
Speaker 1: When did you have this sense and talk to other

913
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 1: people or maybe you just it was your personal insight

914
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 1: that you thought, boy, this is different. This may be

915
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,839
Speaker 1: the bost gifted basketball player I've ever seen. I mean,

916
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:16,839
Speaker 1: you're in my generation, Sam I I grew up and

917
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 1: there I saw the old Wilt and the young Kareem.

918
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: Michael didn't Doctor Jay, but Doctor Jay didn't have the

919
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 1: mid range, dependable game. He was spectacular, but he wasn't

920
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 1: as relentless nightly every possession like Michael was. There a

921
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 1: moment that kind of crystallized it for you when you

922
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 1: really felt going back sitting on that press table and

923
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: you thought, boy, this may be the greatest basketball player

924
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 1: we're ever going to see. Well, you know, I don't

925
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: know if we went to the greatest ever early, but

926
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,359
Speaker 1: we went on pretty spectacular early. You know. The old

927
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 1: Joke of course, was the only one who could hold

928
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 1: him under twenty points a game with Dean Smith. So

929
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 1: this is the first and Rod Thurner is the Bulls

930
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 1: GM had been the GM for like seven or eight years,

931
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: had lottery picks almost every year, and the team has

932
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,320
Speaker 1: winning twenty five twenty eight games. And so Jordan is

933
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: the first practice. Kevin Lockery's the coach, and this is

934
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,760
Speaker 1: the first practice of Jordan's first season. And Bill Blair,

935
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,280
Speaker 1: as I remember as the assistant then, and Rod missus.

936
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: Rod can't go to the first practice to something business

937
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 1: then came up, and so Rod miss is the first practice.

938
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: Bill Blair calls him at the end of the first practice.

939
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 1: Rod's telling me this story and Bill Blair says, you

940
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 1: finally didn't screw up a draft. He said, we have

941
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 1: never seen anything like this guy. He came in with

942
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 1: all the and you mentioned Woolrich was a top ten pick,

943
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 1: wenton Daly's, the top ten picks in the Green, Ronnie

944
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 1: Lester all top ten picks, and he just blew out everybody.

945
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 1: The first couple of practices, he's lowened by everybody. He's

946
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 1: dunking on everybody. You know, as that famous story when

947
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 1: he came in as a freshman at North Carolina and

948
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:09,760
Speaker 1: the first thing he did he went to the board

949
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: and he started writing the Times listing the names of Worthy, Perkins,

950
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,760
Speaker 1: all these all Americans, saying how many times he dunked

951
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: on them. So that's the way he started in North Carolina,

952
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 1: and that's the way he came into the Bulls. Okay,

953
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: So I hear these stories that coming out of training camp,

954
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 1: and we go see him and sits still training camp

955
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 1: and walks into the season. I think third game in

956
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:35,839
Speaker 1: he hits a winner in Milwaukee like six games in

957
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 1: forty nine points against I think what's Portland or something,

958
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:43,359
Speaker 1: and they were bringing in Portland. Media is all saying,

959
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:46,280
Speaker 1: we got a center. This guy's not specially got Clyde Drexler.

960
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 1: And I remember the Chicago guys watch this. Where do

961
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 1: you see this? So we didn't exactly know, say, okay,

962
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 1: this is guy's going to be you know, betted an

963
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:00,400
Speaker 1: Oscar and you know, or Bird or Man, magic or

964
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 1: Will or whatever. But this was different. This was different

965
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: than than anything we've seen because of the combination, you know,

966
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 1: of the athleticism, the drive, and the incredible competitiveness and

967
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 1: this will to win, win everything, you know, which sort

968
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 1: of evolved and we saw more from year to year. Uh.

969
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:23,439
Speaker 1: You know, there's always this debate the greatest and who's

970
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 1: the great you know, and it's arbitrary. Lebron's got the

971
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 1: most points now, you know, in my year are going back.

972
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 1: You know, the two greatest things I remember back basketball

973
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 1: is willth coming to the NBA and Kareem coming to

974
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 1: the NBA. You know, went in basically everything out of college.

975
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 1: And so they said, well, how can Jordan You know,

976
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 1: Bill Russell's got the most championships, Gareem and now Lebron's

977
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 1: got the most points? How could this boy be the

978
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 1: greatest ever? And one thing I always point to with

979
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 1: me is that nobody in sports, and certainly in American sports,

980
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:59,359
Speaker 1: and I can't imagine worldwide sports has crossed over and

981
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 1: had the influence on society that he has. Because of

982
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 1: the basketball, the shoes become fashion. Bill Walton likes to

983
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 1: tell the story. You know, he's the MVPs and Portland's

984
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 1: Phil Knights there. Phil Knight comes to him saying, you know,

985
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 1: we're gonna put your name on sneakers. We're gonna do

986
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 1: this whole thing about you know, air bail or whatever.

987
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 1: He said, Who's gonna buy sneakers with my name on?

988
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 1: What a stupid idea that is, you know? And so

989
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 1: baldness is okay, Now I can I can start shaving

990
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 1: my head men and wearing jewelry, you know, long short fashion,

991
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:40,879
Speaker 1: all on these things that transcend the game. Attached to him,

992
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 1: that's what makes you the greatest. That's a Babe Ruth

993
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 1: kind of thing. That's an Ali kind of thing where

994
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:49,759
Speaker 1: you can't measure them only in the sport, but you

995
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 1: can measure their effect on the world and society, and

996
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 1: and his has been to me more than anybody that

997
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 1: we've ever experienced. Bulls dot com Sam Smith. Does Michael

998
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 1: visit Chicago a lot, golf tournaments, bulls games. His mother

999
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:11,760
Speaker 1: does some charity work, some fairly substantial charity work I heard,

1000
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 1: But does Michael ever visit Chicago? Now Never? As far

1001
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 1: as I can tell, he has never been here. I

1002
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 1: think his house is still for sale up in Highland Park.

1003
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 1: But he built this mansion kind of thing which is

1004
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: well overvalued, and I mean not in a bad neighborhood,

1005
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 1: but it's just near a highway's and it's been for

1006
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 1: sale like ten twelve years or some nobody, you know, buy.

1007
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 1: It's got twenty threes all over the gate and stuff

1008
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: like that. But as far as I know, I've never

1009
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 1: heard him being here. Wow. You know, it's interesting. You know,

1010
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 1: a passionate relationship with Chicago leaves very close relationship with Barkley.

1011
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 1: It ends. It is an interesting personality. It's not a tech,

1012
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 1: it's just who he is. I don't know, how do

1013
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 1: you explain that though those are both unique, you know,

1014
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 1: I don't know of another player. Maybe Brady won't go

1015
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,439
Speaker 1: back to New England. I don't know it. I find

1016
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 1: it just an interesting personality behavioral personality elements. But what

1017
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 1: do you make of that? Well, again, because of the

1018
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 1: sort of the Howard Us sort of element to him

1019
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 1: over the years that he wasn't going to make himself

1020
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 1: public and you know, he's as I you know, I

1021
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 1: mentioned before, he doesn't want to be uh, you know,

1022
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 1: a public figure. He always used to talk way early,

1023
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:41,959
Speaker 1: way early, and actually he would tell us, he said,

1024
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 1: you know, once I'm gone, you'll never see me again.

1025
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 1: And you know, there was an element of that. I

1026
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 1: remember him talking about that in the eighties that I'm

1027
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 1: going to finish my career and when I'm my career

1028
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 1: is over, you will never see me. It's sort of

1029
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:57,360
Speaker 1: been true. But he always the other thing. He used

1030
00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 1: to say too, I'm never going to be a show pony.

1031
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 1: And I think that's why it doesn't go at the

1032
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 1: All Star Game or at least come out publicly. You

1033
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 1: don't see him in public much, doesn't you know, you know.

1034
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 1: I mean, can you imagine the amount of money more?

1035
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:13,800
Speaker 1: I mean, you know what rich people enough never seems enough.

1036
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 1: They're always doing something. Can you imagine the amount of

1037
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 1: money Michael Jordan could make in appearances or things other

1038
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 1: things he did in public, millions people who would pay

1039
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:26,840
Speaker 1: just you know, probably he's probably the most famous person

1040
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: in the world, maybe the most most he loved, but

1041
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 1: he's never you know, he doesn't take advantage of that,

1042
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 1: and he never has any any And for whatever the

1043
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 1: reason was, at a young age in his twenties, he

1044
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: talked about that that this is something I'll never do,

1045
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 1: that's something I'll never be a part of. I'm not

1046
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:49,920
Speaker 1: going to sell myself as as a commodity, as a product.

1047
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 1: You know, I'm going to show what I can do.

1048
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: And then obviously, you know, he was secure with what

1049
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 1: they was making. But you know, and I don't know

1050
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: how to depict the in that movie, but you know,

1051
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 1: he didn't he didn't go seek out the shoe contracts

1052
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 1: and the Nike. He was very reluctant. And I remembered

1053
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:10,760
Speaker 1: early on, you know, his mother kind of drags him

1054
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 1: out there, and that's what the movie said. Yeah, but

1055
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:19,439
Speaker 1: also after the first deal, it was like a three

1056
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 1: or four or five year I don't know what the

1057
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 1: first contract was. He didn't want to re up with Nike.

1058
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 1: I remember Craig Hodges talked to him about maybe starting

1059
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:29,920
Speaker 1: a local brand or something, and Nike had done something

1060
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 1: I'm sure that's not in the movie that he was

1061
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 1: upset with and he didn't want to go. He was

1062
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: thinking about going with another company. I think he said,

1063
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 1: he said, I wored Converse or stottm in college. Maybe

1064
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 1: I'll go with that, So, you know, he he was

1065
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 1: kind of it wasn't so much he was saying, I'm

1066
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan. I can do what I want. Is that,

1067
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 1: you know, it's not my life to sell myself as

1068
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 1: a sneaker salesman. Now he's obviously, you know, turned it in,

1069
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 1: but he's turned it the other thing that he's turned

1070
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:01,400
Speaker 1: it into a quality product. And I think that's what

1071
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 1: he's proud about that things are so seated with Michael

1072
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 1: about quality and they're not cheap and it's not a

1073
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:27,400
Speaker 1: show pony just for the money. The volume, make sure

1074
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 1: to check out The Draymon Green Show. I brought Draymond

1075
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 1: Green into the volume because one of the more entertaining

1076
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 1: voices in sports. Unique perspective understands behind the rope also

1077
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 1: chops up with guests like Gary Peyton, Zach Levine, Tracy McGrady.

1078
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 1: Make sure download The Draymond Green Show wherever you get

1079
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:50,760
Speaker 1: your podcasts. Only on the Volume Podcast Network