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Speaker 1: Quality times. But Joseph s gotten more. My friends. As

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Speaker 1: I am beginning to lay down this sound for you,

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Speaker 1: I'm reminded of the fact that we are actually in

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Speaker 1: the middle of the Lenten season. That means that we

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Speaker 1: are quickly approaching Good Friday, and of course Eastern and

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Speaker 1: when you think about Good Friday, one of the things

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Speaker 1: that jumps to mind for believers and non believers at

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Speaker 1: a base level, people understand what that meant, and it

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Speaker 1: certainly meant one of the worst deaths that the Roman

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Speaker 1: Empire could inflict upon one of their subjects. And of

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Speaker 1: course I'm talking about crucifixion. Horrible, absolutely horrible way to die.

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Speaker 1: And contrary to what most people think, crucifixion in the

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Speaker 1: ancient world did not necessarily involve the nailing of someone.

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Speaker 1: It was kind of a suspension asphyxia where the hands

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Speaker 1: and the feet were bound to across and they were

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Speaker 1: left to hang and linger. Today we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about a case that has the ear marks of crucifixion,

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Speaker 1: the earmarks of crucifixion, and a man that is gentle

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Speaker 1: and kind and a man of God, a man that

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Speaker 1: had his own flock, a man that had his own church,

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Speaker 1: but he was not founded as church. He was founded

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Speaker 1: his home in his bedroom in a posture that he

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Speaker 1: was left in and what authorities are saying, and I

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Speaker 1: quote that he had been pinned to the wall and

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Speaker 1: of course dead. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is bodybacks, Dave.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to hop on with you, my friend, because

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Speaker 1: this is a follow up to an episode that you

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Speaker 1: and I had done. And I remember both of us

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Speaker 1: at that at that time, and it takes a lot

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Speaker 1: for you and I to shake our heads at something.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that you would admit that. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to speak for you, but we covered this

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Speaker 1: case and I think that we were both shocked by

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Speaker 1: virtue of what was discovered at a crime scene out

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Speaker 1: in Arizona. And now, I guess how many months down range?

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Speaker 1: Well several Now we're coming up on a year anniversary here,

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Speaker 1: well in May, I guess we're still shy of that

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Speaker 1: a couple of months away. But brutal homicide and something

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Speaker 1: that we now have more information about.

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Speaker 2: Okay, April twenty eighth, that's when this happened a year ago,

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Speaker 2: and it happened in Americopa County, Arizona. A lot of

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Speaker 2: people familiar with America County because we've had a lot

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Speaker 2: of things go through there. Member Sheriff Joe Arpaio, sandwiches,

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Speaker 2: Diggs County Jail. Yeah, and sandwiches in pink and pink uniforms, yeah,

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Speaker 2: pink underwear. Anyway, americap County known for a lot of things.

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Speaker 2: But Americapa County was the home of Pastor William Shoenman.

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Speaker 2: He was the pastor in New River, Arizona. And you

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Speaker 2: know he you mentioned something before we started recording that

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Speaker 2: I had forgotten and that he was a tinkerer. He

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Speaker 2: was a guy who could work on on on engines,

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Speaker 2: on car current he was. He was the guy that

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Speaker 2: everybody has to have in their rolodex or in their phone,

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Speaker 2: that you know you call when you got a problem

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Speaker 2: with the motor. You say in him, he goes, bring

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Speaker 2: it over, I'll take it. I'll take a look. Anyway.

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Speaker 2: He was murdered in his home and he was positioned

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Speaker 2: in such a way. His body was posed to look

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Speaker 2: like a crucifixion. And when you have a victim that

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Speaker 2: is seventy six years old, who is posed in such

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Speaker 2: a way with such religious significance for the Christian world anyway.

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Speaker 2: And he is found by two members of his congregation

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Speaker 2: who were checking on him. I mean, we have so

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Speaker 2: many of these stories that begin with a welfare check.

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Speaker 2: It's family or friend or police. This case, two members

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Speaker 2: of his congregation, and they were the ones that found him.

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Speaker 2: And we immediately got this story out and we covered

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Speaker 2: it right then because this is odd. It's weird. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's who does this to an old pastor? And what

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Speaker 2: kind of a threat can a seventy six year old

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Speaker 2: man really be to you that would cause you to

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Speaker 2: want to end his life and then pose his body

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Speaker 2: in such a way to either humiliate him or shock

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Speaker 2: whoever finds him.

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Speaker 1: So I like that. I like the idea that you

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Speaker 1: use shock because I think a lot of this centers

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Speaker 1: what we see at the scene here is uh, there

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Speaker 1: is shock value to it. Uh that goes and again,

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Speaker 1: you know, getting off into uh criminal behavior. The area

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Speaker 1: of criminal behavior is not and I will say the

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Speaker 1: skin it is not my area of expertise, but it's

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Speaker 1: something I have to be aware of as a medical

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Speaker 1: legal death investigation because investigator, because I have to understand

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Speaker 1: the significance of posing and there's any number of reasons

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Speaker 1: you find bodies posed, if you will, mostly you.

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Speaker 2: Have to work about a bunch of cases like that.

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Speaker 1: I had. Let's see, are you talking about with a

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Speaker 1: particulous post of religiosity? No, well, hang on, yeah, yeah

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Speaker 1: I did. Uh there were a serial killer would always

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Speaker 1: pose uh uh poses victims uh uh And I always

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Speaker 1: forget this term the title of uh and I know

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Speaker 1: that our friends will will gig me on this, but uh,

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Speaker 1: the position of the Leonardo uh Da Vinci rendering of

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Speaker 1: man where the arms are extended and the legs are extended.

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Speaker 1: Had that happen? Uh, every one of the victims were

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Speaker 1: posed that way?

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Speaker 2: Wow. You know a lot of times when we hear

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Speaker 2: it posing, it's to create shock for the binder.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And in that case, uh, several of the

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Speaker 1: cases that those bodies were posed in that position and

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Speaker 1: surrounded with tires, which is weird. Something I discovered in

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Speaker 1: working this case those cases is that you don't think

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Speaker 1: about it. Next time you go to a garage that

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Speaker 1: does tires, think about what Morgan's saying here, Try and

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Speaker 1: see if you can smell anything else in that environment

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Speaker 1: other than tires. I became aware of it because it

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Speaker 1: was along in an industrial canal. We had several of these

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Speaker 1: cases and tires were used every time tires had been

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Speaker 1: discarded in this area, and I found out something really quick.

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Speaker 1: I actually did an experiment I remember when was it

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Speaker 1: found a dead catfish bloated on the side of canal,

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Speaker 1: and I put it inside of a tire and stack

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Speaker 1: tires on top of it. And you couldn't smell the

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Speaker 1: dead catfish. It had been bloating in the sun, the

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Speaker 1: South Louisiana sun, because I thought that there was some

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Speaker 1: kind of connection to that, and you can't smell anything

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Speaker 1: other than the tires. So that led me and some

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Speaker 1: of my colleagues to conclude that whoever found the body

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Speaker 1: would not find the body by smell, but would find

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Speaker 1: the body by sight, and that it would be this

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Speaker 1: over the top shock, and it was. It was quite shocking.

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Speaker 1: I remember both people in those two cases were very

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Speaker 1: disturbed because they just walked up on the bodies surrounded

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Speaker 1: by tires, and they had to visualize it. Couldn't smell

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Speaker 1: it because you've got the scent of rubber in the air,

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Speaker 1: and not to mention you're in South Louisiana and so

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Speaker 1: everything bakes down there, and so I think, I don't

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Speaker 1: I have done a scientific study about this, but I

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Speaker 1: think that it's probably more profound in an area where

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Speaker 1: it's like really intensely hot and humid. That smell kind

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Speaker 1: of comes forward, that petroleum based, you know, yucky rubber smell.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, as far as posing goes, yeah, I have

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Speaker 1: I have had cases like that. And of course, when

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Speaker 1: you have people there staging scenes, which I worked a

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Speaker 1: number of those, are those are posing. But the posing

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Speaker 1: there is not for shock value, is for deception. And

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Speaker 1: I think that, you know, we could probably do an

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Speaker 1: entire episode on the posing of remains, because there's any

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Speaker 1: I've had people that have taken their our own lives

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Speaker 1: and have posed themselves prior to it. So that when

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Speaker 1: and there's a category when you're working suicide investigations, there's

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Speaker 1: a category where it's called statement making, where you will

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Speaker 1: have people that will take their own lives in such

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Speaker 1: a horrible manner that they know that the person that's

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Speaker 1: going to discover them, it's almost like a final finger

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Speaker 1: to this individual and they walk in and that does happen,

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, And that's happened in any number of times.

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Speaker 1: And that's different than people making a statement where they

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Speaker 1: go in front of a big crowd and let's see

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Speaker 1: a different kind of statement. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: What I was thinking of is when we've covered stories

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Speaker 2: I have covered them over the years of victims being posed. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and oftentimes from my standpoint, not from the death investigator

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Speaker 2: that you had to do, but just from the reviewing

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Speaker 2: and studying crime scenes to report them. Oftentimes the actual

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Speaker 2: posing is not related to the press. They keep it

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Speaker 2: private and they reacted because it is so shocking. And

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Speaker 2: I remember it happened in Florida at the it was

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Speaker 2: the FSU off campus where the guy staged. It's the victims.

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Speaker 2: I'll have to look it up.

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Speaker 1: But little University of Florida. You're talking about the Gainsville Ripper.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Gainesville was his last name.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know you were talking about.

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Speaker 2: It came out during the coburger thing. But in this

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Speaker 2: in that case because Coberg looked him up, remember had

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Speaker 2: him on his phone.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, it happened in a college town and it

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Speaker 1: sharp force, sharp force instruments. You know, we got there

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Speaker 1: were people. I was working in New Orleans at that time,

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Speaker 1: and this guy had a Louisiana connection and back to

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Speaker 1: the serial killings that we had down there. There's always

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Speaker 1: some kind of serial killing going on at some place

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Speaker 1: at some point in time. Might not be in the immediate,

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Speaker 1: but it's and I remember there. I had colleagues that

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Speaker 1: were police officers that were looking at him to see

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Speaker 1: if he had any connection to any of the stuff

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Speaker 1: that was happening in South Louisiana. And I think it's

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Speaker 1: points of origin. We're lock up in Shreeport in the

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Speaker 1: north part. If I'm getting I'm getting this all probably twisted,

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Speaker 1: but you know, and of course in that case, nice

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Speaker 1: were used. I think that there was a decapitation, maybe

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Speaker 1: one or two. Yeah, and so yeah, you're talking. In

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Speaker 1: that case there there was posing and they didn't tell

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Speaker 1: us about it. Shock value, right, and they.

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Speaker 2: Know they wouldn't tell us what it was. They would

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Speaker 2: only at first in the yeah they said, and they

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Speaker 2: they look when the investigators say, well the victims were posed,

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Speaker 2: because you're like, well, how was the victim found? Who

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Speaker 2: found them? What was you know? You go for that

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Speaker 2: because that's actual information. And when they stop and say, well,

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Speaker 2: the victims were posed, and we're not telling you anything else,

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Speaker 2: It's like your mind goes crazy because you're like, this

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Speaker 2: is already a horrific crime, man, how much worse can

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Speaker 2: it be? And then you realize, as you and I

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Speaker 2: often have when we start doing these is, and we've

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Speaker 2: just dug deeper again. We thought we hit the basement

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Speaker 2: of every worse, you know, Nope, there's still another pile

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Speaker 2: down there.

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Speaker 1: Still. Yeah, it goes deeper, man, keep digging, you know,

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Speaker 1: and you never know u uh, you know, cloven cloven

200
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Speaker 1: hoofs and pointy tail. You're you're worried, you're about to strike,

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Speaker 1: you know, go right into the living room of hell.

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Speaker 2: And that's where this guy's coming from. Because this guy

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Speaker 2: who alleged now the alleged killer in this case, Joe,

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Speaker 2: was arrested by good old detective work. Believe it or not,

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Speaker 2: there was not I mean from a staging of a body,

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Speaker 2: staging a victim or opposing him. They didn't have a

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Speaker 2: lot of evidence right there. I mean, the the suspect

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Speaker 2: got away at first.

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Speaker 1: You know, hey, look when we initially reported this, we

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Speaker 1: didn't have we didn't have anybody, right Well we got somebody, now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we do. That was the things I was looking

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Speaker 2: through my notes, and I kept thinking, why don't we

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Speaker 2: have a suspect written here? And I'm like, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: we did the show because I remember it was really shocking,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people were talking about it. So we

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Speaker 2: went in a dress the issue with the posing of

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Speaker 2: the body and the victim and all that, but we

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Speaker 2: didn't have under the suspect in our notes. It's blank,

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Speaker 2: you know, Dave.

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Speaker 1: At that moment in time when we were covering the case,

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Speaker 1: we had a sense, I think that this was going

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Speaker 1: to be maybe something a bit different than what we're

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Speaker 1: used to seeing. And I got to tell you the

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Speaker 1: facts at this point in time, at least don't disappoint it,

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Speaker 1: because not only do we have a name of an individual,

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Speaker 1: we have a very interesting tattoo, and we also have

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Speaker 1: a list of people where we find out that maybe

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Speaker 1: pastor Bill was not going to be the only target. Brother, Dave,

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Speaker 1: I got to tell you. I want to ask you upfront,

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Speaker 1: does this guy have horns? Does he have cloven hoofs

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Speaker 1: in a pointy tail? I don't think he does. And

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Speaker 1: that's that's even scarier because he's out there running around

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Speaker 1: and it could have been anybody. But you alluded to

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Speaker 1: the fact that the police, you know, really started to

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Speaker 1: wear on their shoe leather a little bit and came

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Speaker 1: up with a name, came up with a suspects it.

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Speaker 2: I was surprised at how they did it because you

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Speaker 2: mentioned the shoe leather whenever Joe says shoelead that that

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Speaker 2: means the cops had to do a lot of work,

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Speaker 2: but old fashioned work. Yeah, hitting the streets. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: sitting behind a computer.

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Speaker 1: Let the boys at the laps solve it is, you

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Speaker 1: know which I get tired of hearing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of Yeah, we got DNA at this point. Well,

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Speaker 2: then everybody can go home.

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Speaker 1: Everybody can go home at that point.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well here that's what happened. The man's name

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Speaker 2: is Adam Chief and Adam Sheef. The reason we're doing

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Speaker 2: the update is, first of all, he is fifty two

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Speaker 2: years old, and he is representing himself. Okay, you already

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Speaker 2: knew he got arrested, so we're giving you his name

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Speaker 2: and we're telling you he's already representing himself. And the

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Speaker 2: reason we're covering it now is because Joe called me

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Speaker 2: up and he's like, you're not going to believe this guy. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: what does he want us to do to him?

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Speaker 1: Joe, Oh, he wants us to He wants us, as

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Speaker 1: the public, through our government officials, to end his life.

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Speaker 1: And that's what caught my high about this because that

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Speaker 1: was the headline. I think I saw it in the post.

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Speaker 1: Your post. Yeah, he stated, I've admitted to everything. I've

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Speaker 1: admitted that I did this. Please go ahead and kill

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Speaker 1: me is what he's asked ging the state of Arizona

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Speaker 1: to do in this case. So immediately, you know, I

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Speaker 1: had to read, as I used to say, below the

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Speaker 1: fold at that point, go ahead. I wouldn't see if

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Speaker 1: there was a page two to it to see you know,

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Speaker 1: what did this guy have to reveal? And I got

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Speaker 1: to tell you it's fascinating that he would he would

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Speaker 1: first off target this this little old guy who what

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Speaker 1: do you refer to him as? He's a bi vocational pasification, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is can you explain that just just briefly please,

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Speaker 1: my vocational pastor.

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Speaker 2: You know, not every church pastor is employed solely by

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Speaker 2: the church. Oftentimes in some smaller congregations that has a

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Speaker 2: pastor that does services and things like that for the

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Speaker 2: church also has a full time job because the church

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Speaker 2: can't afford a full time pastor, and that's where vocational

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Speaker 2: pastor comes in. It doesn't mean they're any less educated

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Speaker 2: or more educated or anything else. It's just different situations

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Speaker 2: for different people. Everybody's got a different calling. And in

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Speaker 2: this case where you have a seventy six year old

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Speaker 2: man who is a he's retired. He works on you know,

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Speaker 2: car parts, car engines and things like that. He's known

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Speaker 2: as that guy, and so he was. He was making

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Speaker 2: his money doing that. But again at seventy six, he's

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Speaker 2: kind of puttering. You know. That's where the bivocational semi

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Speaker 2: retired pastor. I don't know how big his congregation, you know, was,

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Speaker 2: but it was small enough that he could do He

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Speaker 2: did other things.

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Speaker 1: I guess I got to insert something here real quick.

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Speaker 1: Talking about being a pastor, or, a priest, or, a rabbi.

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Speaker 1: I really wonder when you're up at the dais. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you're you're in the pulpit, because I'm coming at this

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Speaker 1: from a worldly perspective. Yeah, I'm really wondering when you're

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Speaker 1: up there and you're preaching, all right, and you're looking

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Speaker 1: out over over the congregation. I've always wondered about how

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Speaker 1: acutely aware a pastor is in that circumstance, like if

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Speaker 1: they see somebody that comes through the door. You know

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying, that looks a little off because you

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Speaker 1: know that what we're told, you know, is that in

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Speaker 1: houses of God, that everybody's accepted, you're welcome to come in. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you don't want to be a disruptive force, all right,

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Speaker 1: and all are welcome, right, and so but this guy,

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Speaker 1: I got to tell you that. The reason I'm saying

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Speaker 1: the reason I'm saying this, I know tattoos are very

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Speaker 1: very common, but Dave, this guy has got in Hebrew.

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Speaker 1: And I had to look this up because obviously I'm

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Speaker 1: not one of the Chosen. I do not read Hebrew.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea how to read it. I had

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Speaker 1: to look it up. And he has in huge letters

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Speaker 1: across the anterior aspect of his throat. He has the

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Speaker 1: name in Hebrew Yahweh written on his neck. And not

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Speaker 1: that that would necessarily catch your attention if you were

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Speaker 1: a pastor. Maybe I don't know, but I've often wondered

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Speaker 1: about that. You know, when when pastors look out over

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Speaker 1: a congregation, they see a new face pop up and

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Speaker 1: you're standing there and you're do you have a prepared

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Speaker 1: sermon and you're going through a point by point. Is

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Speaker 1: that a circumstance where you know they they somebody will

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Speaker 1: catch catch their attention. I've often wondered about.

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Speaker 2: That having and you find the right way to say

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Speaker 2: this as a Dane pastor, Okay, yeah, yeah, I have.

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Speaker 2: I have preached a number of sermons, I have done revivals,

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Speaker 2: I've done a lot. I love Jesus and I know

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Speaker 2: that when you're preparing to deliver a message, you pray

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Speaker 2: for God to use you, to give me the right

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Speaker 2: words to say in the right attitude to have. And

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Speaker 2: if you're in that moment, you're you're not seeing people

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Speaker 2: like that, okay, But somebody that comes in that stands

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Speaker 2: out on purpose, you would see just like any other

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Speaker 2: place you would reckon, you would recognize evil. I believe,

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Speaker 2: I do believe that you've been around people like that

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Speaker 2: and you know you can recognize somebody who's up to

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Speaker 2: no good. And in this day and age, I think

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Speaker 2: that more and more churches have become aware as we've

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Speaker 2: had shootings and churches of every denomination, every denomination has

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Speaker 2: been affected. And this pastor being shot by a guy

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Speaker 2: with yahweh tattooed across is in Hebrew is a whole

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Speaker 2: new level of crazy, you know. And I really but yeah,

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Speaker 2: I understood your plant. And I really think that for

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Speaker 2: the most part that a daily pastor in and out.

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Speaker 2: If you're at a church that has the same membership

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Speaker 2: weekend and week out, oh you know everybody that's there,

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Speaker 2: you know who the relatives are. And when you see

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Speaker 2: somebody new, I'm hoping that they wrap their warm arms

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Speaker 2: of love around that newcomer and welcomed them into the fold.

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Speaker 2: So a bigger church, you have more visitors that you

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Speaker 2: don't know.

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Speaker 1: And again, somebody coni even though it's in a Maricopa County,

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Speaker 1: which is massive, and you got Phoenix, which is one

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Speaker 1: of the largest cities in the not just obviously largest

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Speaker 1: city in Phoenix, it's one of the largest cities in

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Speaker 1: the United States. Where this church is is on the

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Speaker 1: north I think it's on the north end of the county,

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Speaker 1: you know, like we're uh, you know, I remember, I

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Speaker 1: remember the first episode, you know, I love Gordon Lightfoot,

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Speaker 1: and I was thinking about Carefree Highway which runs to Sedona,

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Speaker 1: you know, which I was pleasantly surprised by one time

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Speaker 1: when I saw the sign on the side of the road,

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Speaker 1: it's like Carefree Highway. Oh my lord. You know. So

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Speaker 1: it's up not necessarily in complete isolation, but it's it's

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Speaker 1: not like you're in downtown Phoenix, you know what it is.

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Speaker 1: So I would imagine the congregation is rather small.

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Speaker 2: This area is called Cave Creek, Okay, this area of

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Speaker 2: Maricopa County is in It is a town called Cave Creek,

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Speaker 2: and that community has about five thousand people.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna know folks. Yeah, you're gonna know them. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I wonder, and I think one of the things from

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Speaker 1: an investigative perspective, I wonder if this guy had ever

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Speaker 1: even darkened the doorstep of this church. That's really that's

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Speaker 1: where this goes. And here's here's one of the other things.

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Speaker 1: Because now now with churches, you know, you can go

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Speaker 1: online and you can listen to the message. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's down late, it's MP three or whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: You can actually go back. If I think initially it

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Speaker 1: was done for people that are always identified in churches

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Speaker 1: as being home bound, that can't get out. But now,

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Speaker 1: you know, particularly in the wake of COVID. A lot

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Speaker 1: of people just started going to church, you know, over

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Speaker 1: over the linernet essentially.

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Speaker 2: You know, Joe, we've been covering the Nancy Guthrie case.

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Speaker 2: Nancy she did that. The church service that Nancy Guthrie

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Speaker 2: attended with her friends, they gathered in a home and

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Speaker 2: they watched online the service of a church in New

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Speaker 2: York City that Savannah Guthrie attends every Sunday, so that

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Speaker 2: Savannah and her mom worshiped together at the same church

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Speaker 2: into different locations.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, that's the that's the really interesting piece

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Speaker 1: to this, Dave, because with this chief guy, Adam Sheef,

390
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Speaker 1: what's fascinating is that the police have now actually stated

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Speaker 1: that it wasn't just about Pastor Bill. This guy, the

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Speaker 1: same guy that we've already talked about that wants the

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Speaker 1: state of Arizona to go ahead and kill him because

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Speaker 1: he claims he's admitted to everything. Dave. He's apparently got

395
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Speaker 1: a hit list he was going to go out and

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Speaker 1: he had a hit list of fourteen other pastors or

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Speaker 1: I don't know, church leaders or whatever it was. They're

398
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Speaker 1: being very not being coy, but they're being nonspecific from

399
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Speaker 1: an investigative standpoint that he had identified that he was

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Speaker 1: going to try and kill. And I think, if I'm

401
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Speaker 1: not mistaken, he claims that he is on a mission

402
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Speaker 1: ordained by God.

403
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Speaker 2: Well, he's claiming that he is the son of God,

404
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Speaker 2: and he wants them to put him to death to

405
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Speaker 2: prove that you cannot kill God's son. That's what he said.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, so he's going to survive whatever. I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what the modality of capital punishment is

408
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Speaker 1: in Arizona. Right off the top of my head, I

409
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Speaker 1: think that if I was a betting man, I'd say

410
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Speaker 1: that it was probably injection of some kind of sodium

411
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Speaker 1: pentathol based cocktail. More than likely. That's what my money's on.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know he would he in fact survive that.

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Speaker 1: I guess that he's hoping for a miracle or whatever

414
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Speaker 1: the case might be, because he's betting against the house.

415
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Speaker 1: At this point in time. What he's saying is I'm sorry, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's lethal injection. There you go. Now, I don't know

417
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Speaker 1: what the combination is because it varies from from state

418
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Speaker 1: to state, but I can tell you. I can tell

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Speaker 1: you that he is in fact betting against the house

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Speaker 1: because to date, I don't know. Well, I guess there

421
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Speaker 1: are those cases out there, because now there's other states

422
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Speaker 1: that have wanted to go to other things. Eventually, they're

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Speaker 1: going to kill you. I think we're going to find

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Speaker 1: out if he's really up to the task of testing

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Speaker 1: his faith, David. The authorities from Jump Street, and this

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Speaker 1: is back in April, they had here's a term for you.

427
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Speaker 1: They had described the scene as being unique and specific

428
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Speaker 1: circumstances in this case. Now that's on the that's on

429
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Speaker 1: the heels of having stated that when Pastor Bill's body

430
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,719
Speaker 1: was actually found that he was quote unquote pinned to

431
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:15,479
Speaker 1: the wall unique and special circumstances. I don't know that

432
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: I have ever used that terminology before. Really, Yeah, I

433
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 1: mean I might say that something is unique and no,

434
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: and might say that it's non specific but specific. What

435
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 1: are you holding back? Why aren't you telling us anything more?

436
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 1: And they, you know, they have not necessarily released a

437
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 1: lot of information relative to how how this elderly gentleman

438
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: may have may have passed on.

439
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 2: Wow, well, you know interesting that he was posed, you know,

440
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 2: with his arms outstretched and hands pinned against the wall.

441
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 2: And you've mentioned that that could mean any number of things.

442
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 2: We know that the criminal that is alleged to have

443
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 2: done this, and now once the death, you know, it's interesting.

444
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 2: He pleaded not guilty, but then he said, I've been

445
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 2: telling you all along, I did it. You know, I don't. Again,

446
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 2: I don't know the level of I don't know, nutbag.

447
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 2: I don't know what the legal term is for somebody

448
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 2: who's off the rocker or whatever, or who has gone

449
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: too far down the river. But I was looking over

450
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 2: how they caught him, Joe, and we mentioned at the

451
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 2: beginning that it was just a good old shoe leather,

452
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 2: just to give you an idea of who he is.

453
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 2: He's a criminal, this guy who now is wrapping himself

454
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 2: in God okay, he is a regular criminal. And I

455
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 2: don't know about you, but you know the Ten commandments

456
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 2: are not the ten suggestions. And when it says thou

457
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 2: shalt not steal, that's one of the bigges. It's right

458
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: there with thou shalt not kill, which you go further,

459
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 2: it's to commit premeditated murder and anyway, but this guy's

460
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 2: a criminal, that's all he is. And when you track

461
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 2: it back two days before the murder of pastor showman.

462
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 2: He steals the truck. The chief, Adam Chief, steals a truck.

463
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 2: Now that truck is really important. I looked over the

464
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: investigation and in the police reports, it's that truck. That

465
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 2: truck theft two days earlier, that's what that's what caught him.

466
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: Chief allegedly breaks into a residence, steals pickup truck, leaves

467
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 2: the area in that truck. One day before the murder. Sedona,

468
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: Arizona burglary activity. The stolen truck is spotted in Sidona,

469
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 2: and yeah, they got cameras everywhere. Well, who was driving

470
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 2: the stolen truck tattoo, Yes, that would be it. So

471
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: you've got additional burglaries also taking place in and around Sadonah,

472
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,719
Speaker 2: other suspicious activity and what. All of it is tracked

473
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 2: back to the truck and the person we believe to

474
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 2: be mister Chief. The day of the murder. Again, this

475
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 2: truck is it's hitting every camera. It's the one thing,

476
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 2: going back to Nancy Guthrie that we've been looking for

477
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: a you know, one consistent vehicle that we could track

478
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 2: with all of the cameras are everywhere. That's how they

479
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 2: did it with this guy. The murder of Pastor Bill.

480
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 2: Investigators determined the death as a homicide, obviously, but evidence

481
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: starts stacking up pretty quick when you get down to

482
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 2: the nitty gritty. The other related offenses are stacking up

483
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 2: the criminal charges, not just murder. You mentioned the long

484
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 2: list of thirteen other pastors, a total of fourteen pastors

485
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: apparently on the list, and he started with Pastor Bill.

486
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 2: But Adam Sieff was arrested based on all of these

487
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 2: connected incidents, all of these crimes committed starting with the

488
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 2: theft of the blue truck or the theft of the pickup truck.

489
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: So he started up north, in the more nordly, not

490
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: the further s north. You know, we're not talking about

491
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: flag Staff, but even if you say Sedona, that is

492
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, just shy of one hundred

493
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: miles due north of Phoenix. Amazing location, by the way,

494
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: Kim and I plan on going back there someday where

495
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: you I remember leaving out of Phoenix and it was

496
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: in the middle of summer, Oh my gosh. And when

497
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: we got to Sedona it was like, you know, you

498
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: get up, that's got to be the easiest shop in

499
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: the world. By the way, to be a weather man

500
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: in Phoenix, Phoenix, Phoenix, Arizona. But I distinctly remember them

501
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: talking about it's only going to be one hundred and

502
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: eight today. And when we left out of Phoenix, we

503
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: headed to Sedona and got up to Sedona and dude,

504
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: it was sixty five degrees up there. Really, Oh it

505
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: was like heaven. Yeah, it was absolutely heaven.

506
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 2: So in Phoenix and sixty yeah it was.

507
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: It was lovely. We even had a rain shower, you know,

508
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: the whole asse. But yeah, so when you so, Sedona's north,

509
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: so if he starts out up there, he's heading southbound

510
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: towards Phoenix. I think my big, my big question relative

511
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: to this was was he merely looking for a church

512
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: or a church that he could you know, was this

513
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: another another place he could burglarize or was he specifically

514
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: looking Did he get off of the road, because you know,

515
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: it's not where where this little town is Bear Cave,

516
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,959
Speaker 1: No Cave Creek, Right, Cave Creek is not indirect, It

517
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: doesn't line up perfectly. Jim, What am I trying to say? Uh,

518
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: from from a perspective of north south, you have to

519
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: take you have to get off of the road. Geographically,

520
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: you have to get off the road in order to

521
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: wind up in Cave Creek if you're coming from Sedona.

522
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: So did he get off the road because he intended

523
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: to go to this man's home? Did he head that

524
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: way as a result of targeting him, or was he

525
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: going to this little town in order in order to

526
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: conduct other burglaries. That's the big question here was is

527
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: this part of a of a of a bigger truly

528
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: a bigger planner. Is this something that he's just created

529
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,239
Speaker 1: in his mind? Because you spoke to that just a

530
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: moment ago. You know, he said that he was not guilty.

531
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: Now he's saying he is guilty. You need to take

532
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: my life because I did this, and I'm going to

533
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: prove that. You know, no weapon formed against me, and

534
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: this earth shall prevail. I guess uh. And that he's

535
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: going to survive anything. So I think that. And to

536
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: the to date, the police have yet to release further information.

537
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: The big thing that we're left with here is I think,

538
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: how in fact did did the pastor die? Now he

539
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: is restrained, he's tied to a wall. How far did

540
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: the assault go? Did was he beat about the head?

541
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: Was he choked out? Was he strangled? And here's another thing.

542
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: They said he was positioned positioned on his bed, but

543
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: not really on it. He's kind of suspended in this manner.

544
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: So how were his hands bound in place over the bed?

545
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 1: Are they tied to the headboard in some way? Are

546
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 1: they tied are anchored in the wall above the bed

547
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: and part of the body is on the bed? You

548
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: know exactly how in fact did this go down?

549
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 2: Can you tell if he died from being posed in

550
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,919
Speaker 2: that way like he was, because you've mentioned that it's

551
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 2: a slow death. It's not a quick death to die

552
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:45,240
Speaker 2: like that. So would you be able to determine aside

553
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 2: from a gunshot, wound in the head or a large

554
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 2: knife sticking out of his throat? I mean, could you

555
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 2: determine how long it took for the guy to die?

556
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, potentially. Let's just throw it out there, and

557
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: I'm not saying this is what happened, but if in

558
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: fact this was a death related to in what we

559
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,919
Speaker 1: think about the classic form of crucifixion when and there's

560
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 1: documentation about this. The Romans were pretty good about writing

561
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 1: things down and documenting things and why they did it.

562
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: It was like crucifixion itself is like it was considered

563
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 1: to be one of the most humiliating deaths anybody could

564
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: go through. Okay, because this is not something where some

565
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: guy's going to emerge from the crowd and lop your

566
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: head off. Okay, it's not even hanging. You're talking about

567
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,439
Speaker 1: suspending somebody, because with crucifixion, CRUs fixion is actually dave

568
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 1: a a positional asphixia event. Okay, because you can't if

569
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: you're suspended in the air and your you know, your

570
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 1: hands are restrained, your wrist or restraint, and you can't

571
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: move from that sooner or later. If you cannot facilitate

572
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: your on breathing you know, where you can leverage yourself

573
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: to like, you know, lift up and be able to

574
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: catch a breath, You're going to die of congestive failure.

575
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,280
Speaker 1: You're going to have a respiratory failure event. Your lungs,

576
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:13,720
Speaker 1: their lungs will be incredibly heavy, man, just filled with fluid.

577
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 1: It's a long, long, grueling death. I've heard reports some

578
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 1: people have said, and there's a whole group of a

579
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: group of forensic pathologists I think from a number of

580
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: years ago that studied crucifixion from a historical perspective and

581
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: giving various estimates of how long it would take somebody

582
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:35,919
Speaker 1: to die. And you know the the there's that one

583
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: scene the biblical account of Christ's death, you know, of

584
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: breaking of the leg, and that's so that you couldn't

585
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 1: leverage yourself up in order to catch a breath. For instance,

586
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: you're going to essentially, I hate to use the term drown,

587
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 1: but your lungs will fill up with fluid. Some people

588
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: will say drown, drowning your own fluids and that sort

589
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 1: of thing. That's that's not entirely accurate, but your lungs

590
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:06,399
Speaker 1: become very heavy and congested. Now, if he was restrained

591
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: in some way and perhaps beaten, then the restraint is

592
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 1: kind of secondary at that point in time. Now you're

593
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: just we're back to this idea of shock value. Is

594
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 1: he being suspended in order to shock people that are

595
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: going to walk through the room. I would have to

596
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: think that that was part of it, because you're trying

597
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: to drive home a message at that point time, and

598
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: that's something that you don't normally think of, you know,

599
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: like I don't ever recall I've had people that have

600
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: been bound. I've had people that have been restrained stood

601
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: over their bodies examined them. I have never had anyone

602
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: that is literally tied up with their hands suspended above

603
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 1: their head. I know that my I have colleagues that

604
00:37:52,520 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: have There's a device that's used in what's it called

605
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: bondage and torture types of things. It's called a Greek cross,

606
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 1: which is not a standard like Christian appearing cross. It's

607
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: a gigantic X where people are tied onto an X

608
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: like that and they're tortured, you know, utilizing that. I've

609
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: had colleagues that have had cases where people have been

610
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: tied to those sorts of things. There's other examples. I've

611
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: had people that have been lashed to trees, for instance,

612
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: but that was just a way to restrain them and

613
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: hold them in place while they were brutalized. So that

614
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 1: brings us down to you know, how exactly did he die?

615
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: Is this an a six year old death? Is this

616
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,760
Speaker 1: a blunt force trauma death? Is it some type of shooting.

617
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 1: They have not released a lot of information at this

618
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: point in time, and I'm hoping that more data will

619
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: come out. But the fact that this person has come

620
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:58,919
Speaker 1: out and has made these statements and that I find

621
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:05,439
Speaker 1: it also very very curious. Dave that this person did

622
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: not go after somebody from some huge shirt that might

623
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 1: have retired cops that are working as their security detail. Wow,

624
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 1: they went after a little old man and let's face it,

625
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 1: rural America, who's a widow a widow wer or rather,

626
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: he likes to tinker on car engines and plane engines

627
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: that I urge you to look him up. There's this

628
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: fantastic picture of him sitting in the cockpit of a

629
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: biplane with a big grin on his face. He just

630
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: looked like the sweetest man on earth and he ministered

631
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: to people. That's the guy that this person chose. I

632
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,879
Speaker 1: don't know what else more we can really say, other

633
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: than the fact that evil is very much prevalent in

634
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: this world and we're going to find out more about

635
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: this person. Because you can't have it both ways, folks.

636
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 1: You can't say that you're not guilty and then proclaim

637
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: your guilt and dare the state to take your life.

638
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Back