1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to this special Bloomberg podcast with me Caroline Hepger 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: and alongside our finance reporter Will Shaw. Now, it has 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: been thirty years since Bearings Bank, Britain's oldest merchant bank 4 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: at the time, collapsed after twenty eight year old derivatives 5 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: trader Nick Leeson racked up and concealed a billion dollars 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:26,159 Speaker 1: of trading losses at Bearings Singapore office. Lison became the 7 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: face of financial misconduct. He served more than four years 8 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 1: in Shangy Prison. He wrote a book, Rogue Trader, that 9 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: was then turned into a Hollywood movie. In the decade 10 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: since then, Lison's been on the speaker circuit talking about 11 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: what he calls the most embarrassing period in his life. 12 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: He's owned a football club in Ireland along the way, 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: and more recently his work to investigate financial misconduct. And 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: Nick Leeson joins us now today. Welcome Nick, good morning. 15 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me. I'm looking forward 16 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 2: to it. 17 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to have a discussion because of course 18 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: it is thirty years now since the collapse of Bearings. 19 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,559 Speaker 1: How do you think about that whole period in your life, 20 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: the impact that it had both on Bearings and also 21 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 1: on you with that distance. 22 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, well, I think you summed it up perfectly 23 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 2: in the beginning. It's still with huge embarrassment on my part. 24 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 2: You go through, you know, a lot of shame, a 25 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 2: lot of guilt, embarrassment at the time, but the one 26 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 2: that stays with you is the embarrassment because it's the 27 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 2: complete opposite of what I wanted to achieve. And up 28 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 2: until a certain point, I'd had a fairly good career 29 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 2: in the world of banking, and then it all imploded 30 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 2: very very quickly when I was in Singapore. So I was, 31 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 2: you know, very much the ascending star for a short 32 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 2: period of time and then had a very spectacular fall 33 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 2: from grace. And that still sits with you. You can, you know, 34 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 2: you can recover from a personal perspective, but you still 35 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 2: look at that period of my life and am I 36 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 2: Am I comfortable with it? Am I at peace with it? 37 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 2: Absolutely not, because that just wasn't me and what I 38 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 2: wanted to achieve. But it's always going to be the 39 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 2: piece of baggage that I carry around. 40 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 3: You were the star trader sent sent from London to Singapore. 41 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 3: You made the bank a lot of money over the years, 42 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 3: you built up positions, particularly in the Nickey. At what 43 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 3: point did you know that the cover up of the 44 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 3: trades couldn't be hidden anymore? Like, what was the key 45 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 3: moment when you knew it was going to unravel. 46 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: It's very difficult to put an absolute definite answer on that. 47 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 2: I think I was always as deep as I was 48 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 2: getting into the situation, as bad as it was getting, 49 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 2: you were always you're always looking for this slight positive, 50 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 2: you know, maybe the market to turn around a little bit, 51 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 2: or you've managed to overcome a particular investigation from somebody 52 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 2: within the bank, and that always gave you the belief 53 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 2: that you had a little bit more time to try 54 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 2: and solve the situation, which is really all I was 55 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 2: ever interested in doing. You know, I know I should 56 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: never have got into the situation as soon as I 57 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 2: was in it and it was getting worse. All I 58 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 2: wanted to do was solve it. So you'd grab these 59 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 2: positives and when you look back with hindsight, they're all 60 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 2: false positives. But they just convinced me that I had 61 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 2: a little bit more time to try and turn the 62 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 2: situation around. And you know, there were no barriers or 63 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 2: controls to what I was doing and I was. I 64 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,239 Speaker 2: was never pushed back on at all in terms of 65 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 2: how far I could take it, unfortunately, and I. 66 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: Mean even I mean you flared at one point, and 67 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: you and you you went a Kuala Lumpur, and even 68 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: at that point, according to your book, you kind of 69 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: you didn't think that the bank was going to collapse. 70 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 2: No, no, no, I mean as a young trader working 71 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 2: in Singapore. You know, the last thing that you know, 72 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 2: I was interested in was what was the capital base 73 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 2: of the bank. You know, that was that was a 74 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 2: different area. You know, the Treasury would look after the 75 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: capital base of the bank, how the reporting was done 76 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 2: to the Bank of England at the time, and what 77 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 2: were the legal limits you could lend to a subsidiary. 78 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: They weren't something that I thought about. If I phoned 79 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 2: Treasury and I asked them fifty million pounds or fifty 80 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 2: million dollars or one hundred million dollars, if they paid 81 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 2: that over to me, you know, that was the end 82 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: of the transaction. How it impacted on the rest of 83 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 2: the organization in terms of the capital base and how 84 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 2: much it was lending to a subsidiary. You know, they 85 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 2: weren't processes or thought processes that I was going through, 86 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 2: you know, when you look back at the story, and 87 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 2: I had six hundred and fifty million pounds of me 88 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 2: in Singapore, the capital base of the bank was only 89 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty million legal limit you could. 90 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: Endure a subsidiaries fifty and you were because you were 91 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: in charge of the office in. 92 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 2: Singapore, right, Yeah, I didn't have access to the money, 93 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,679 Speaker 2: you know. I still had to refer to a treasurer 94 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: in London to ask for the money, and then he 95 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 2: would pay the money over. I'd give him nonsensical reasons 96 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 2: for the money, you know, and was definitely definitely concealing 97 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 2: the real reason for needing the money at that time. 98 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: But the fact that it went past so many limits 99 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 2: and regulatory limits in terms of you know, twenty percent 100 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 2: of the bank's capital being lent to a subsidiary. You know, 101 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 2: I was in thirteen times in breach of that. But 102 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 2: the Treasury Department allowed that to happen. Doesn't take away 103 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 2: any of my guilt or my responsibility, but you know, 104 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 2: that's part of the processes that should have been in 105 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 2: place to stop this sort of thing happening. 106 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 3: Do you recall the specific time when you started to 107 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 3: turn your life around afterwards. 108 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: After the collapse of the bank, Yeah, and after. 109 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 3: Your time and your time in prison and all the 110 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 3: all the repercussions, Like, what was the kind of key 111 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 3: turning point for you and rebuilding? 112 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 2: I don't know if there's a again, I don't know 113 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 2: if there's a key turning point. I think it's a 114 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: slow process. You you know, when you're in prison and 115 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 2: you're looking at everything that you've done, that you've done 116 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 2: and you've been involved in, you go through this process 117 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 2: of really pulling back the layers of what's happened, and 118 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: you have to really have a long, hard look at yourself. 119 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 2: You you know, you you get to a situation where 120 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 2: you dislike a lot of things that you've done, which 121 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 2: was obvious. But then at some point, and it's probably 122 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 2: a couple of years after release, you have to start 123 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 2: looking at yourself and protecting yourself. So it becomes about 124 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 2: looking at or building back up your self esteem, your 125 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 2: self worth, your self confidence, and that comes through, you know. 126 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: One of the ways that I suppose it's worked for 127 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 2: me over the years has been fairly open with the 128 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 2: world's media. Yeah, you know, I've never been combative in 129 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 2: terms of you know, people looking for me for a story. 130 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 2: You know I prefer and I should have started this 131 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 2: a lot earlier, I know that. But you know I 132 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 2: prefer to be very honest and very open book about 133 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 2: about things that happened, and you know the ways that 134 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 2: I reacted to things during that period. 135 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: But there is still a tension, isn't there? And I 136 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: think this is also why your story even now is 137 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: so fascinating to so many people in finance, which is 138 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: that tension between the rogue trader. And others have mentioned this, 139 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: like Jerome Cavill. You know, he's talked about he made 140 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: enormous losses for his bank a few years ago in 141 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: the Billions, and he talks about being scapegoated versus the 142 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: kind of controls that should be in place, and that 143 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: there's that tension there, isn't it. How much responsibility is 144 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: on the individual versus actually the oversight that should be there, and. 145 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 2: It's a combination of the two. I think anybody who 146 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 2: describes themselves as a scapeboat scapegoat is lying. Right. You 147 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: know what you're doing, you know you shouldn't be doing it. 148 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 2: You continue all the same, and therefore you're responsible and 149 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 2: you need to take responsibility for your actions. You know, 150 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 2: a lot of the other road traders that you can mention, Quaker, Duboli, 151 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: your own Curvial, Iguci at Diora, there's probably too many 152 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 2: to mention. A lot of them talk about pressure to perform. Again, 153 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: it's rubbish. This is a decision between right and wrong, 154 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 2: and you know that it's wrong from the beginning, and 155 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 2: you know that you're going down the wrong path, and 156 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: you continue for various reasons, and you know, I prefer 157 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 2: to focus on the reasons rather than trying to blame 158 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 2: somebody else. It's a shortcoming in my personality as much 159 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 2: as it was with Curvial and Adiboli. They took the 160 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: wrong path, they made the wrong decision, and they covered 161 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 2: up from that particular point. Yes, the bank has a 162 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 2: responsibility to make sure that they have systems, controls and 163 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 2: policies in place. And you know the fact that their 164 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 2: negligent doesn't take away your guilt. I don't think so. 165 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 2: Sometimes we have a difference of opinion with the in 166 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 2: terms of how the other road traders view some of 167 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 2: these things. 168 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 3: Looking back at the reporting at the time, it seems 169 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 3: like there was a strong kind of clust dimensioned in 170 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 3: some respects as to what happens. You came from Watford, 171 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 3: you were the son of a pluster, You rose very 172 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 3: fast through the ranks as. 173 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 2: You depicted it. 174 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 3: The leaders of Bearings were sort of posh, foolish, not 175 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 3: in control of the company that they were running. 176 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 2: Like to what degree was like clus part of that story? 177 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 3: And do you see is that route still there for 178 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 3: people for people to rise high and fast in banks 179 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 3: like that today? 180 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 2: But there is. If you're successful, you're gonna You're going 181 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 2: to succeed in any business. I think sometimes the trajectory 182 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 2: is a bit quicker within the world of banking. But 183 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 2: the whole class element element of it, which comes through 184 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 2: in the first chapter of Road Trader, is probably the 185 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 2: part of the book that I just don't agree with. 186 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 2: But you know, I was stuck in prison in Germany. 187 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 2: I had massive legal bills that need to be met. 188 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 2: So when we were or when I was co authoring 189 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 2: the book with Edward Whitley at the time, he wrote 190 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 2: that chapter and it was very keen or the publishers 191 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 2: were very keen that that was you know that that 192 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 2: whole part of it, the class, the class conflict, if 193 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 2: you like, was embellished through that first chapter. So it's 194 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 2: not something that I ever really felt. I was always 195 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 2: you know, I always enjoyed the week spot spent. So 196 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 2: let me rephrase that. I never spent a lot of 197 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 2: time in the city socializing with the people that worked 198 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 2: in the city because they weren't really my type of people. 199 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 2: You know. I grew up on a council estate in 200 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: Watford and I used to like going back home at 201 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 2: the weekends to go out with my friends rather than 202 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 2: spending my time in the city. For me, it was 203 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 2: very much a job of work, and friends that I 204 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: made in the city at the time were always quite transient, 205 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 2: and I think it is a transient industry as people 206 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 2: move and push on within that. So there wasn't you know. 207 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 2: I just don't agree with the class element or a 208 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 2: class warfare element of it that is depicted in the 209 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 2: book and some of the media made a big story 210 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 2: of at the time. It's just not the way that 211 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 2: I felt. I always felt very welcome. I was very socially. 212 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 2: A debt which I think was to you know, in 213 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: my favor throughout that whole period enabled me to move 214 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 2: in some of the circles that they did and transgress 215 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 2: some of the rules that I did throughout that period 216 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 2: as well. But yeah, no, look, I never it was 217 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 2: you know, working class versus upper class scenario, which was 218 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 2: which was maybe made a bit more of at the time. 219 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: At the time, you know, it was certainly a feature, 220 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:11,959 Speaker 1: wasn't it in the reporting and in the book, as 221 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: you say, But that idea of that trajectory, I mean, 222 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 1: leave you know, you left school. I think you left 223 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: school at eighteen. You certainly didn't go to university. You 224 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 1: went straight into a bank, not Bearings to start with. 225 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: You had a couple of different jobs before you got 226 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: to Bearings. But that kind of route in the city, 227 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: I mean, even the kind of type of trading that 228 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: you were doing. That's it's the open outcross all of that. 229 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: It's kind of it's disappeared. Yeah, it's a thing of 230 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 1: the past, isn't it. But is that route still open 231 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: of that kind of coming into the city and being 232 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: able to make it. 233 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 2: No, I think it's it's a far harder route these days. 234 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 2: And I think if you go back to that period, 235 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 2: if you look at you know, you know, I started 236 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 2: working the city in nineteen eighty five, so you've got 237 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: Big Bang nineteen eighty seven. So they've got lots of 238 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 2: new banks coming into the city. They're all looking for staff. 239 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 2: So you used to get off of the off of 240 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: the Tube Bank and you'd be handed one of those 241 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 2: you know, little magazines and it'd be full of jobs 242 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 2: and you could you could quite easily change a job 243 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 2: every couple of weeks if you wanted to, with a 244 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 2: tiny bit of experience. Tiny bit of experience, and you know, 245 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 2: that was enough to give you that opportunity to move 246 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 2: into another organization. So I was two years at Coots 247 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: and Company just down the road here, you know, moved 248 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 2: to Morgan Stanley, worked for Morgan Stanley for two years 249 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 2: and then then was headhunted to Bearings. It was, you know, 250 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 2: there was lots of opportunity, and I think you can't 251 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 2: take that away from some of the things that happened 252 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: during that period. You you know, you've got this process 253 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 2: of deregulation where everything is you know, ramping up in 254 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: terms of how big the city is becoming and how 255 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 2: many people are working in the city, and you know, 256 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 2: the systems, the controls, the policies weren't in place in 257 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 2: some of those organizations in order to safeguard it. 258 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 3: Do you feel like systems and controls are better now 259 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 3: that there are more safeguards in place to prevent this 260 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 3: kind of thing? 261 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. You you know, like I speak 262 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 2: at lots of different events and conferences where you know compliance, 263 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,839 Speaker 2: risk management, governance and the theme, and you know you 264 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 2: can't underestimate how many people work in those areas now. 265 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 2: You know, like when I think back to my time 266 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 2: at Bearings, we had one compliance officer I think she 267 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 2: was also the risk manager for two and a half 268 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 2: thousand people. You walk into most offices now in Canary 269 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 2: Warfare around this area and there's three thousand people working 270 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 2: in compliance. So you know it's come on in massive 271 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 2: leaps and bounds since that time. The quality of people 272 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 2: are better, they're better educated, you know, they're getting better 273 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: training within those organizations. But when you still have an 274 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 2: episode like mcquarie happening within the last two years, where 275 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 2: there were four hundred and fifty fictitious traits, you have 276 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 2: to question how on earth that happens? And no, I 277 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 2: suppose no. 278 00:13:55,360 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 3: The Trump administration is looking to deregulate quite fast. There's 279 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 3: potentially new risk going to a merger and things like 280 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 3: AI and crypto. I mean, do you worry about the 281 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 3: regulatory environment and the level and the level of risk. 282 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 2: I don't worry for me, you know, maybe you I 283 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 2: think there's a worry for the markets. You know, there's 284 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 2: always these niche areas that throw up anomaly. So you've 285 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 2: got you know, you had the episode with Archagos a 286 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 2: few years ago, You've got Credit Suisse who've gone by 287 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 2: the wayside over the last number of years. You've got 288 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 2: this thing that's happened with the McQuary. So is it 289 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 2: one hundred percent safe? Absolutely not. 290 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: Well, we're also at a very We're at an interesting point, 291 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: aren't we, in terms of the Trump administration wanting to 292 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: roll back the financial crisis era regulations and that that 293 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: is going to surely put pressure on the UK and 294 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: Europe to do the same. And for Britain it's very 295 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: much about trying to you know, financial service has been 296 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: quite unloved for around Brexit and for quite a long 297 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: time now. It's perhaps needed in order to boost second 298 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: growth importance, So you know, is there a concern that 299 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: that is going to become more of a dominant theme again? 300 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: How do you get a grip of that. 301 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 2: Well, I think the elastic band went too far in 302 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 2: the opposite direction. When you had the global financial collapse 303 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 2: and you've got Dodd Frank and everything else that came 304 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: in around that time, the controls were just too much 305 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 2: and that restricted a lot of business getting done. And 306 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 2: I think, you know, there's definitely a need to pull 307 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 2: back a little bit on that. And you've seen that 308 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 2: happen over the last number of years. Whether you're going 309 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 2: to go to full deregulation, quite how far it's going 310 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 2: to go, is going to open, is going to open 311 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 2: certain doors to allow things to go wrong again, And 312 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 2: you know, you've got to be very very careful when 313 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 2: people talk about deregulation. You know, that throws me back 314 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 2: to that period in nineteen eighty seven when I was 315 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 2: starting in the city and it was all of that opportunity, 316 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 2: you know, the opportunity to move and move into the city, 317 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: get jobs, move on within the different organizations, but also 318 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 2: the controls systems weren't good enough. If you're getting that 319 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 2: right and the industry is perfectly safe, then deregulate and 320 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 2: pull back on some of that regulation. But mcquarie is 321 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 2: the one that worries me. How can you have four 322 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty fictitious trades? It is just so basic 323 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: an oversight. This is like kid stuff. And yet you've 324 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 2: got an organization that's missed four hundred and fifty trades. 325 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 2: They haven't reconciled them, they've not been able to see 326 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: that they've they're not been able to guarantee any of 327 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 2: those trades. Yet. This has happened less than two years ago. 328 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: And I'm sure that Macquarie would want to defend themselves 329 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: on that point and give their explanation. 330 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 2: I'm sure that I'm sure they would want to, but 331 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 2: they wouldn't be able to. They are fictitious trades. The 332 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 2: key is in the word fictitious. They didn't exist, So 333 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 2: how did you allow them to survive as an offset 334 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 2: for a young trader within your organization for so long? 335 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 2: That's where you get fined. 336 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 3: Do you think what happened there is a sign of 337 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 3: wider risks that are there in the end history and 338 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 3: that that's just the tip of an iceberg? 339 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 2: Or no, No, I think it's an isolated case, as 340 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 2: was bearings all of those years ago. Now you've got 341 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 2: you know, you've got a number of rogue trading episodes 342 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 2: that spun off of the back of bearings and came 343 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 2: to light because of bearings. You've got haman Arka at 344 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 2: summertomo Igucci at Daiwa. You know, these were going on 345 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 2: at the same time, so it wasn't an isolated incident. 346 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 2: I think mcquarie is an isolated incident. But you know, 347 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 2: one incident is too many. Maybe I shouldn't use McQuary's 348 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 2: name so much. 349 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 3: One of your jobs is to investigate financial misconduct via 350 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 3: via red myst. 351 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, what does your work there involve. Well, my part 352 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 2: of the work is probably more forensic. It goes back to, 353 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 2: you know, looking at what my skill sets were when 354 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 2: I worked in Coots and Morgan Stanley, and just looking 355 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 2: at data and conversations and other things that are going 356 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 2: on where there is something conduct within within organizations, and 357 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 2: just pulling all that together. You know, I've always thought 358 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 2: that I had a fairly photographic memory, so I'm using 359 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 2: that again and just pulling those strands of information and 360 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 2: seeing where we can expose misconduct within organizations. 361 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 3: And where are you finding is the most prevalent place 362 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 3: for that kind of misconduct, So where are. 363 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 2: The weak links. It's all over the place really, to 364 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 2: be honest with you. We look at some things which 365 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 2: involve a certain amount of sexual harassment. There are certain 366 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 2: episodes where that comes to the fore we're seeing that 367 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 2: being quite prevalent at the moment. We look at other 368 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 2: cases which have resulted, you know, maybe in some trading 369 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 2: episodes that aren't correctly following procedure, where there's a lack 370 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 2: of surveillance over some of how those trades are being 371 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 2: trades are being followed through the organization. It's really quite 372 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 2: widespread and it's quite interesting and it's good for me 373 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 2: and you know, I'm enjoying it at the moment. 374 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: Back to financial services in terms of the UK regulator, 375 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: I mean we've seen, for example, the SEC chair go 376 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: In the US, there has been some pressure on the fcchair. 377 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 1: And there's always criticism of the UK regulator. I mean, 378 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 1: back when it was the FSA, you were quite critical 379 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: of it in your historic case, but you've also been 380 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: critical of it recently in the kind of FCA. Guys, 381 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: how much robustness is there for the FCA. You know, 382 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: the regulators always are quite criticized. They're often also quite 383 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: underfunded in lots of ways and are limited in their scope. 384 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: For example, how do you think the UK's regulatory system 385 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: is measuring up now. 386 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 2: I think it's improved a lot. I think there needs 387 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 2: to be you know, there needs to be more communication 388 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 2: and conversations with the banks that they need to work together. 389 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 2: I think different regulators are better at doing that, you know, 390 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 2: allying with some of the banks and bringing better controls 391 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 2: to the FOE. I'm not sure, you know, obviously I'm 392 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 2: a million miles away from regulation these days. You know, 393 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 2: I would have been a bit closer to it all 394 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 2: of those years ago, But you know, it's still a 395 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 2: job of work to be done. They're always slightly behind 396 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 2: the curve. That's always going to be the case. I 397 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 2: think if you look at the number of people who 398 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 2: work in the FCA and how many people work in 399 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 2: the City of London, there's a huge disparity. So it's 400 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 2: very difficult to man mark what's going on within those organizations. 401 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 2: So you need the banks to get it right, and 402 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 2: you need the banks to have robust, tough controls within 403 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 2: their within their own organizations. And then when people do 404 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 2: step over the line, when they do commit fraud or 405 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 2: they do something that's wrong. They need to be punished. 406 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 2: And you know, there's been a bit more of that 407 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 2: over the years and you hear of more and more cases, 408 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 2: but it does still happen. But I think the banks 409 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 2: are catching it far quicker. The FCA has a role 410 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 2: within that, but there's still a job of work to 411 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 2: be done. 412 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 3: When you're brought in to talk to the corporations about 413 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 3: your experiences, is there a particular piece of advice that 414 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 3: you give to them. 415 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 2: The piece of vice is really easy and it's you know, 416 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 2: I delivered the same piece of advice to my children 417 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 2: as well. You know, if you find yourself in a 418 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 2: difficult situation, always ask for help and advice. You know, 419 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,239 Speaker 2: I was surrounded by people that could have helped me, 420 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 2: but I didn't do that really simple thing. And you know, 421 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 2: back in it's a very different world today than it 422 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 2: was in nineteen nineties banking. You know, asking for help 423 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 2: was seen as a sign of weakness and you probably 424 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 2: would have been just you know, not dismissed from the firm, 425 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 2: but dismissed with it quite quite easily. But you should 426 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 2: have seen it, or at the time, I should have 427 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 2: seen it as a sign of trying to do things correctly. 428 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 2: And it's such a simple thing. And you you know, 429 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 2: as I explained it to my children, if they find 430 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: themselves in a difficult situation, just come to me and 431 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 2: tell me what's going on. You know that there might 432 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 2: be a difficult period, but I'll help you through it. 433 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 2: And that's what I needed at the time. And I think, 434 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 2: you know, just more communication is such an important tool. 435 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: Nick, Can I say, You've had such a colorful life, 436 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: You've written a couple of books, You've been, as I 437 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: said to Jail, you've been, you know, widely understood as 438 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: a kind of road trader, sort of posed a person 439 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: for that, and yet you've done so many things since then. 440 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 2: Do you sort of mourn. 441 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 1: The life that you might have had had that not happened? 442 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: How do you know, put it into perspective? Now thirty 443 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: years later and you're still talking about it, still sort 444 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: of attached to the financial industry. 445 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 2: How do you think about it? They probably don't like 446 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 2: the attachment, but no, it's Look, it's a very real story. 447 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 2: It happened. There's no way that you can avoid that. Unfortunately, 448 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 2: you do see certain facets of it coming back into 449 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 2: not not always just the financial services industry. I think, 450 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 2: you know, businesses and industries outside of the world of 451 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 2: finance have had to pick up on compliance with some 452 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 2: management government. You know, you've got huge failures over the 453 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 2: last number of years kaillion and an episode such as that, 454 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 2: so everybody's had to up their game in that regard. 455 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 2: I don't specifically go into these organizations and try to 456 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 2: give advice. I kind of I feel a bit fake 457 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 2: if that was the process. You know, I go in, 458 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 2: I tell stories. You know, I can go through in fairly, 459 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 2: fairly close detail or extensive detail about what happened during 460 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 2: that period, because nobody really knows it better than me. 461 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 2: And if that then leads them to look at something 462 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 2: quite differently within their organization, then I think that's sort 463 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 2: of benefit. I also color compliance and risk management parts 464 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 2: of learning within those organizations because it's usually fairly dull 465 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 2: and most people try not to attend, so bringing me 466 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 2: in make sure they get a few more bums on seats, 467 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 2: and you know, there's a reason to why you're learning 468 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 2: this and why you need to do this properly. 469 00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 1: Okay, As as the last thought, if there is another 470 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: Nick Lison out there, now, what did you say to 471 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: him or her her stop. 472 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 2: You know, it's it's not worth it. I you know, 473 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 2: I remember doing a treasury management conference in the Barbicane, 474 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 2: you know, a good few years ago now, and one 475 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 2: treasurer came over to me and he said, look, I've 476 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 2: got I'd like to ask a piece of advice. And 477 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 2: you know, I started off by saying that, you know, 478 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 2: I'm not sure I'm the right person for that, but 479 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 2: you know, I'll do my best to respond as honestly 480 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 2: as I can. And he said, there's a bit of 481 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 2: an issue and it was for one of the biggest 482 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 2: UK banks at the time. He said, I've got a 483 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 2: bit of an issue. I'm not happy with something that's 484 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 2: going on within the organization. I've got an email in 485 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 2: my outbox that I want to send, but I just 486 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 2: don't have the courage to send it at this time. 487 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 2: What do you think I should do? And I said, look, 488 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 2: you know, I don't know the specific instance, but the 489 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: one piece of advice I can give you is it's 490 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 2: it's far easier to get another job, it's not so 491 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 2: easy to get another repute. And you know, you've got 492 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 2: to make the right decision on that basis. You know, unfortunately, 493 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 2: you know, my reputation might be slightly different than it 494 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: was back in nineteen ninety five when this when the 495 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 2: story came to everybody's attention, but it's still a bad reputation. 496 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, that's interesting that you feel that that you're 497 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: still very much stuck with even though you did the 498 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: present time and it's a long time ago, you still 499 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: feel that you're really saddled with it. 500 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I think you You know, people have asked 501 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:41,239 Speaker 2: me if I'm you know, comfortable or content with that 502 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 2: particular period in my life. I never will be. I 503 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 2: never will be because it's the complete opposite of what 504 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 2: I wanted to achieve. Am I content with myself? Yes, 505 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 2: you know what I represent, you know, my family values 506 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 2: and everything else, But the focus is very different. It's 507 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 2: not on being successful and succeeding within the world of fine, 508 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 2: which is what I wanted to do. So, you know, 509 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 2: you have to change your focus a little bit, and 510 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 2: that enables you to move forward. Whereas you know, speaking 511 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 2: about it so openly, honestly and regularly means that it's 512 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 2: not this you know, it's not this big ogre that 513 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 2: follows me around all the time. It's part of my life, 514 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 2: it's part of who I am today, but it's not. 515 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,959 Speaker 2: You know, it doesn't quite have the level of shame, 516 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 2: guilt and embarrassment as it did years ago, but it 517 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 2: still has a certain amount of embarrassment.