Speaker 1: Welcome to Out of Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
Speaker 1: and today we're talking buying nothing to gain everything with
Speaker 1: Liz Chai.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I don't care how much money you.
Speaker 1: Make, right it is still possible.
Speaker 2: To completely spend it all to find yourself at the
Speaker 2: end of the month with no money in the bank.
Speaker 2: Studies show that even forty five percent of folks who
Speaker 2: are high wage earners like so, these are folks who
Speaker 2: are making more than one hundred thousand dollars that they
Speaker 2: are living paycheck to paycheck as well. And obviously there
Speaker 2: are some financial situations that could be resolved with a
Speaker 2: slightly higher income, but more often than not, we are
Speaker 2: the problem. We are our own worst enemies because of
Speaker 2: the ridiculous amounts of stuff.
Speaker 1: That we buy.
Speaker 2: And that is why we're excited to be speaking with
Speaker 2: Liz Chai. Liz is the author of How to Buy
Speaker 2: Essentially Nothing for a Year, and actually she wrote and
Speaker 2: illustrated the book. As Liz is a graphic designer, it's
Speaker 2: a joy to read through. It's beautiful, and she's actually
Speaker 2: an old friend, which I'm sure we'll touch on a
Speaker 2: little bit later as well. But when we heard that
Speaker 2: she was writing a book about her personal journey with consumption,
Speaker 2: we knew that we had to have her on. Hopefully
Speaker 2: a lot of folks will be able to be inspired
Speaker 2: by her journey as well as to leave this episode
Speaker 2: with some practical tips on how it is that they
Speaker 2: can buy fewer things. Liz, thank you so much for
Speaker 2: joining us today on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Hey guys, glad to have you Liz. This is going
Speaker 1: to be fun and so much to this. I think
Speaker 1: I'm just kind of curious from a voyeuristic standpoint too,
Speaker 1: to know exactly what it's like to go through a
Speaker 1: whole year with buying nothing. So we'll get into some
Speaker 1: of those questions to satisfy my curiosity. But our first
Speaker 1: question for everyone who comes on the show is what
Speaker 1: do they like to splur John, and I'm particularly interested
Speaker 1: in what your answer is to this. Ours is craft beer,
Speaker 1: because but we're still prioritizing save being investing for the future,
Speaker 1: even while we spend potentially more than we showed on
Speaker 1: craft beer. What's that for you?
Speaker 3: Well, since I don't allow myself to buy material things,
Speaker 3: I usually if I'm going to splurge, it's going to
Speaker 3: be on an experience, So at the very top of
Speaker 3: my list is traveling to Copenhagen. I will buy a
Speaker 3: ticket to Copenhagen. That's my splurge. And fine dining is
Speaker 3: another thing I will.
Speaker 1: I love so min Copenhagen.
Speaker 2: Specifically, you've combined the two because you mentioned that in
Speaker 2: your book, right, So the ability to not necessarily think
Speaker 2: twice about taking that trip as well as making that reservation. Yeah, nice, nice, Okay.
Speaker 2: What is it that made you want to go down
Speaker 2: this radical path, because at least here in modern America,
Speaker 2: it's it's a radical path to take where you're attempting
Speaker 2: to consume almost nothing. Did you come across a book,
Speaker 2: did you have an intense conversation with a friend? What
Speaker 2: was it that set you down this path?
Speaker 3: Gosh, there were so many different actors that led to
Speaker 3: the decision. When I'm I decided to not buy anything
Speaker 3: for a year, and that was a New Year's resolution.
Speaker 3: And usually at the end of every year, I sit
Speaker 3: down and I make my lists of things that I'm
Speaker 3: gonna do in the coming year and my goals and
Speaker 3: all this stuff. You know, it's like a I call
Speaker 3: it the dreamatorium, where I sit down and just daydream.
Speaker 3: But this particular year I was living in and a
Speaker 3: moment of over abundance, it just felt like I had
Speaker 3: too much, Like I had everything I needed, and I
Speaker 3: started almost feeling guilty because I was just like, I
Speaker 3: have everything I need, Why do I keep buying stuff?
Speaker 3: And I had learned about minimalism, and I had, you know,
Speaker 3: I'd read Murray Condo's book, and I had followed the
Speaker 3: minimalists for a while, and I've had always done a
Speaker 3: very good job of only thrifting things or you know,
Speaker 3: not spending too much money necessarily, but I still had
Speaker 3: so many material things. I had so much stuff. And
Speaker 3: so originally, when I decided to stop buying things for
Speaker 3: a year, it was because I wanted to experience what
Speaker 3: it was like to be satisfied with what I already had,
Speaker 3: and I wanted to be able to like live with less.
Speaker 3: I didn't want to just continue like gaining more and
Speaker 3: more and more. So that's that's originally what inspired the
Speaker 3: New Year's resolution.
Speaker 1: Okay, so why you're going to thinking through these things?
Speaker 1: What makes you go down the hardcore route as opposed
Speaker 1: to making subtle changes.
Speaker 2: Like why like a normal person?
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, exactly, Liz, Why are you so not normal.
Speaker 3: Well, I will say part of my personality is just
Speaker 3: that I love rules and structure, So that's you know
Speaker 3: why I sit down and make my lists of stuff.
Speaker 3: Here's what you're not allowed to do. So part of
Speaker 3: it is that, and that's sort of just the way
Speaker 3: my brain works.
Speaker 1: But also so.
Speaker 3: I've noticed over the years, and I've been around even
Speaker 3: I've experienced life with an addict and have seen how
Speaker 3: difficult it is for someone to make a huge change
Speaker 3: in their life if they don't make a huge change
Speaker 3: in their life. So just drop by drop, it's not
Speaker 3: going to make an impact necessarily on your heart. So
Speaker 3: that's why I decided to sort of go all in.
Speaker 3: And I talk about this a little bit in the book.
Speaker 3: But if you've ever like gone to work out, I
Speaker 3: do weight training.
Speaker 1: I try to abort it personally.
Speaker 3: So if you've ever like gone to the gym and
Speaker 3: like you select your weight and you start working out
Speaker 3: and realize it's too it's too light, it makes sense
Speaker 3: to stop and increase your weight because like, what would
Speaker 3: even be the point of going to the gym if
Speaker 3: you're not actually gonna break a sweat while you're there.
Speaker 3: It's like a waste of your time. So sort of
Speaker 3: have that same mentality where it's like, if I'm if
Speaker 3: I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna go all out, I'm
Speaker 3: gonna challenge myself.
Speaker 1: Let's do it right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it makes it and it really created this
Speaker 3: paradigm shift where I completely have a different view of
Speaker 3: material possessions now.
Speaker 1: So like subtle rudder shifts, like a one percent change
Speaker 1: gradually over time, does take us in a different direction.
Speaker 1: You're saying, you kind of said it takes a major
Speaker 1: change to make a major change like that. Explain that
Speaker 1: to me, and how do you actually do that? Cause
Speaker 1: it sounds nice to make a radical change, and where
Speaker 1: at the beginning of a new year here where people
Speaker 1: are like, hey, radical change sounds kind of awesome, But
Speaker 1: those radical changes can be more difficult to stick with. Two.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so a while ago, and this was back
Speaker 3: so I lived in Atlanta and that's how I know
Speaker 3: the both of you. Yeah, and before I moved out
Speaker 3: to where I live now is Portland. A friend of
Speaker 3: mine challenged me to the minimalists do a game where
Speaker 3: you get rid of something every day. On day one,
Speaker 3: you get rid of one thing on day two, you
Speaker 3: get rid of two things, and you do this for
Speaker 3: a month. And so that was my introduction to the game,
Speaker 3: and I actually still continue to play this game almost
Speaker 3: every day. I have a spreadsheet with a macro and
Speaker 3: it tallies all the things I've gotten rid of and
Speaker 3: just another super nerdy thing.
Speaker 2: That I Yeah, you might need to share with me
Speaker 2: because I might want to jump on that. Okay, So
Speaker 2: do you also put an estimated Sorry, you're giving a
Speaker 2: nice reply here, and I totally am jumping in, but
Speaker 2: does your mac Does it also include a total value
Speaker 2: as well? Like, do you even if you give it away?
Speaker 2: Do you put an estimated dollar amount on there? Or
Speaker 2: do you only do that for items that you sell?
Speaker 3: It has a few It's changed over the years, but
Speaker 3: every year it tallies the quantity of items I've gotten
Speaker 3: rid of. And that's you know, whether I sell something
Speaker 3: or give it away, or to recycle it or throw
Speaker 3: it away or donate it all of all of the options.
Speaker 3: And now it also includes a tally for the amount
Speaker 3: of money I earned if I sold something, yeah, or
Speaker 3: the amount of store credit that I got I exchanged it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to.
Speaker 1: Track the donation for tax purposes. Too, right. I also
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 2: But I love the fact that this is something you're
Speaker 2: keeping up with over a long period of time, because
Speaker 2: we talked about this a few weeks ago. But there
Speaker 2: are a few things that we look at over the
Speaker 2: scope of not only multiple years, but even multiple decades
Speaker 2: or god forbid it like a lifetime, and certain expenses
Speaker 2: we think, oh gosh, it takes how much money to
Speaker 2: actually live, But we don't normally look at things that
Speaker 2: far zoomed out. But I think by doing that that
Speaker 2: could be incredibly encouraging when it comes to thinking about
Speaker 2: the stuff we own, trying to find ways to cut
Speaker 2: back on that. But yeah, sorry to interrupt it. It sounds
Speaker 2: like this is something you revisit every year where you're
Speaker 2: looking to continue to unload goods.
Speaker 3: Every year. I aim to get rid of as many
Speaker 3: things as it is the year, so twenty twenty four
Speaker 3: I will try to get rid of twenty twenty four
Speaker 3: things at least. And that's been easy, honestly, if I'm
Speaker 3: keeping track. Some of it is small things and some
Speaker 3: of it is big things. And that kind of goes
Speaker 3: back to what you were asking about the slow trickle.
Speaker 3: When I first started playing this, game. I was pretty
Speaker 3: intimidate by, like how am I going to get rid
Speaker 3: of four hundred things in a month, And my friend
Speaker 3: just encouraged me to start small, so I, you know,
Speaker 3: I'd get rid of Oh I've been hanging on to
Speaker 3: this business card for a long time, or here's a
Speaker 3: paper clip or a battery or something, and that's this
Speaker 3: one small thing, and it helped me to start to
Speaker 3: get used to playing this game, and it reduces the
Speaker 3: value of material things in your in your mind. But
Speaker 3: then I've been playing the game for a long time
Speaker 3: and I would then, you know, this was back in
Speaker 3: my buying years. I would go replenish that stuff. So
Speaker 3: that's slow trickle. I was barely putting a dent in
Speaker 3: like the amount of things that I that I owned
Speaker 3: or possessed. So I might get rid of four hundred
Speaker 3: things in a month, But then.
Speaker 1: That was just the junk drawer, Yeah exactly.
Speaker 3: It's most people have about that much stuff just like
Speaker 3: laying around their house that they can get rid of
Speaker 3: and they wouldn't even notice it. And I have had
Speaker 3: multiple estate sales even where I get get rid of
Speaker 3: things that I bought, and I don't remember what most
Speaker 3: of those things are, which really says a lot about
Speaker 3: how we value our stuff. If you were to have
Speaker 3: a garage sale and get rid of a bunch of stuff,
Speaker 3: you probably won't even remember what it is that you parted.
Speaker 1: Ways with you that's true, It's right, Okay.
Speaker 2: Well, one of the things you say in your book too,
Speaker 2: is that the fact that you actually feel better when
Speaker 2: you are not consuming more, when you're not buying anything,
Speaker 2: so you actually began to view material possessions as burdensome,
Speaker 2: like the way you write about it's almost like it
Speaker 2: was taking up space in your mind. Can you kind
Speaker 2: of explain the shift that took place when you went
Speaker 2: from seeing it as something that maybe you used to
Speaker 2: get an endorphin rush, but then it's like you saw
Speaker 2: it through a different lens and all of a sudden
Speaker 2: it became this weight.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people have a different relationship
Speaker 3: with stuff than I do. But I think it's pretty
Speaker 3: common for people to get that endorphin rush or they're
Speaker 3: trying to feel like a void, and so they might
Speaker 3: be purchasing purchasing stuff mindlessly so that they can feel
Speaker 3: better for a moment, or to feel a sense of control,
Speaker 3: like I know, I had a friend who would buy
Speaker 3: every single issue in like a like a DVD collection
Speaker 3: or like a book series, Like he had every single
Speaker 3: one and even like the one with the gold foil
Speaker 3: stamping that sort of thing. And you know, ultimately, and
Speaker 3: he admitted this too, but it's just he was really
Speaker 3: what he was buying was a sense of completeness in
Speaker 3: being able to have all of those things in full
Speaker 3: and like to have his shelves lined with like every
Speaker 3: every possible issue, game or whatever it was. I think
Speaker 3: he got all of those things. Honestly, we've all and
Speaker 3: there's like no shame to it. Like I you know,
Speaker 3: I've I've been a collector of stuff, you know, ever
Speaker 3: since I was a kid.
Speaker 2: I worked out, we've all got our own things that
Speaker 2: were more on to whether yeah it's trinkets or limited
Speaker 2: release DVDs.
Speaker 3: Or most people would be appalled if they knew that.
Speaker 3: Over the course of my life, I've owned hundreds and
Speaker 3: hundreds of vintage dresses.
Speaker 1: So well, I want to ask you about that because
Speaker 1: that feels different because so much of the time when
Speaker 1: we're trying to curb consumption, what we're what we're looking
Speaker 1: to do is like stop Amazon purchases or just the
Speaker 1: knee jerk impulse spends because we're scrolling on social media
Speaker 1: or something like that. And I think that is a
Speaker 1: massive culprit for a lot of people today and just
Speaker 1: and they're like, where did the money go? What is
Speaker 1: actually in the package that showed up in my doorstep
Speaker 1: a day or two later? The disconnect, I guess, But
Speaker 1: you're like, it's it's not the same thing. It's not
Speaker 1: like you're adding to a landfill when you're buying something
Speaker 1: used like vintage shopping or thrifting. Does that feel different
Speaker 1: to you? And was that harder to give up? Do
Speaker 1: you do any of that these days? Because if there's
Speaker 1: anybody I know who is more into like the vintage scene,
Speaker 1: I couldn't name them.
Speaker 3: Well, there's a couple of different things happening here. So
Speaker 3: one of it. One of those things is I was
Speaker 3: buying vintage dresses excessively, Like nobody needs hundreds of vintage dresses.
Speaker 3: Nobody needs hundreds of dresses, you know, unless they, you know,
Speaker 3: are a fashion blogger or something like that, if it's
Speaker 3: relevant to what they do. But I could go a
Speaker 3: year without repeating. And there was something about that that
Speaker 3: does that does not feel good, even though I was
Speaker 3: delighted in every single one of those dresses. You know,
Speaker 3: eventually I have sold a lot of those. I don't
Speaker 3: have that many dresses now. But I think one of
Speaker 3: the ways I justified it was by saying, well, I'm
Speaker 3: not contributing to fast fashion, I'm not adding to the landfill.
Speaker 3: But then later I learned more about the purchases that
Speaker 3: I was making. So you know, most sixties and seventies
Speaker 3: dresses are made out of polyester, which is plastic. It's
Speaker 3: like not good for the earth. That's not good for
Speaker 3: you to even like wear on your body. And so
Speaker 3: in a way, it's still it's still maybe not good
Speaker 3: just because I wasn't, you know, buying all my clothes
Speaker 3: from the outlem all or whatever. I was still living
Speaker 3: in excess, and I was still not contributing in a
Speaker 3: positive way to the planet.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, we've got more to talk to with you, Liz,
Speaker 2: and specifically we want to get into some of the
Speaker 2: different benefits that you realized by spending less money by
Speaker 2: buying fewer things. And we're going to talk how later
Speaker 2: on too, just some practical takeaways and how it is
Speaker 2: that folks can come up with a plan so that
Speaker 2: they can buy fewer things.
Speaker 1: We'll get to all of that right after this. All right,
Speaker 1: we're back. We're still talking with Liz Chai about buying
Speaker 1: nothing and kind of all the positive benefits that accrue
Speaker 1: when you make a pretty radical life change. And Liz,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty was the first buy nothing year that you experienced.
Speaker 1: I'm curious, like, what sort of ripple effect has that
Speaker 1: had in your life, and has it been Has it
Speaker 1: resulted in more permanent and lasting changes maybe than you
Speaker 1: first imagined? Was it? I guess you think of it
Speaker 1: as maybe a way to save money or declutter, But
Speaker 1: my guess is that that's not all. That's not the
Speaker 1: only impact that I had.
Speaker 3: Definitely, gosh, there were so many things that I had
Speaker 3: no idea that were going to happen, all these unexpected benefits.
Speaker 3: I'll say. So, you know, like I said, I did
Speaker 3: this as a New Year's resolution. I did it for myself,
Speaker 3: and it was just like a personal challenge. But by
Speaker 3: the end of the year, you know, I had shared
Speaker 3: what I was doing with a few people, and one
Speaker 3: of my friends thought it was so interesting that he
Speaker 3: wanted to record a video about it, so he filmed
Speaker 3: me talking about my project. This was towards the beginning
Speaker 3: of the year, but we didn't publish the video and
Speaker 3: till maybe October, and then it got a lot of
Speaker 3: attention just on our social media channels, and that led
Speaker 3: to The New York Times published an article about buying Nothing.
Speaker 3: It was published on the last day of the year,
Speaker 3: so I had it was day three sixty five of
Speaker 3: my project. And because of that, a lot of people
Speaker 3: who read that article came to me asking, well, how
Speaker 3: can I how can I do what you're doing. So
Speaker 3: I would never have thought to write a book or
Speaker 3: you know, even be talking about this with anyone if
Speaker 3: if I hadn't encountered other people just telling me that
Speaker 3: they were inspired by the project and that they wanted
Speaker 3: to do their own year of buying nothing. So that's
Speaker 3: one of the one of the benefits was it started
Speaker 3: this almost like a like a little mini movement. Had
Speaker 3: people approach me and even suggest you really need to
Speaker 3: write a book about this, So that's where the idea
Speaker 3: came from. I would say some of the other unexpected
Speaker 3: benefits were well, one of the big ones was I
Speaker 3: just like saved so much money, and I when I started,
Speaker 3: I didn't My intention personally wasn't necessarily to save money.
Speaker 3: But that's why I call it an unexpected benefit. But
Speaker 3: I think there are a lot of people out there
Speaker 3: who they might want to do their own year of
Speaker 3: buying nothing so that they can save money. But because
Speaker 3: of my perspective on it at the time, I didn't
Speaker 3: know how much I was spending on stuff. Probably most
Speaker 3: people don't, so I didn't really have like a good
Speaker 3: way to say, well, if I don't buy the stuff,
Speaker 3: I'm going to save ten thousand dollars. It wasn't really
Speaker 3: like that, but I just sort of passively everything I
Speaker 3: wasn't spending on stuff just it just went into my
Speaker 3: bank account. So at the end of the year, I
Speaker 3: was like, wow, there's a lot of money in here
Speaker 3: and there. There are a lot of other factors that
Speaker 3: played into this, but it was a huge contributing factor
Speaker 3: to me being able to put a deposit down on
Speaker 3: building a tiny house. So I've been dreaming of building
Speaker 3: a tiny house for a really long time, and so
Speaker 3: that is that was the start of that.
Speaker 2: And I just I love the idea of you getting
Speaker 2: to the end of the year looking at your bank
Speaker 2: account and being like I'm rich. Yeah, like it almost
Speaker 2: having happened to you. And I mean you've mentioned in
Speaker 2: the book too that maybe this is what you're getting
Speaker 2: ready to mention, but like you started saving for retirement,
Speaker 2: like you started investing for the first time ever.
Speaker 1: Is that right? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was. I had this excess of money, and
Speaker 3: I was I was like this, this feels great because
Speaker 3: I don't feel like I've lost anything, Like stuff just
Speaker 3: became so much less important to me. And I wasn't
Speaker 3: expecting that either. I thought by the end of the year,
Speaker 3: I'd be like, I have like a hundred things that
Speaker 3: I've been waiting to buy, and I got to the
Speaker 3: end of the year and there wasn't anything like that.
Speaker 3: I had forgotten most of the things that I was like, oh,
Speaker 3: I really wish I could get that. I had a
Speaker 3: like a wish list going that I'm like, I know
Speaker 3: at the end of the year my mom might ask
Speaker 3: me what I want for Christmas or what I want
Speaker 3: for my Birthday. I had like two things on there.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And if I hadn't decided to quit buying things, I
Speaker 3: would have spent all that money mindlessly, like I had
Speaker 3: been for years where I would go into the grocery
Speaker 3: store and some of it is little stuff too. Went
Speaker 3: back to your question again about that slow trickle. But
Speaker 3: like I would go into the grocery store and buy
Speaker 3: a new red lipstick every time I was in the
Speaker 3: grocery store, just at habit I did not need any
Speaker 3: of that, I think, like, and this was all before,
Speaker 3: you know, before I quit buying stuff. But I had
Speaker 3: a whole drawer full of red lipsticks. I'm like, no
Speaker 3: one needs the smunge lipstick. And so I was like, okay,
Speaker 3: well I'm allowed to buy a lipstick once.
Speaker 1: I use up all of these.
Speaker 3: And it took two years.
Speaker 1: Wow, I want to hear. I want to hear about
Speaker 1: the things that you do allow yourself to buy too, Like,
Speaker 1: because so you said, okay, when the lipstick's all worn out,
Speaker 1: I will buy a new lipstick. So when when you
Speaker 1: say year of buying nothing, what are the caveats on
Speaker 1: that I guess for you? Because I'm guessing I don't
Speaker 1: know you're you're you're probably not going without socks or
Speaker 1: you know, some of the most basic things, is my guess.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that is a great question, because a lot
Speaker 3: of people are confused by it, which is why I
Speaker 3: call it buying essentially nothing. I'm only buying what I
Speaker 3: absolutely essentially need and that I had to make my
Speaker 3: own lists of things that I was allowed to buy,
Speaker 3: and so this is going back to my need to
Speaker 3: have rules and structure. I made three lists. One of
Speaker 3: those was okay things that were okay to buy, and
Speaker 3: that was things like food, and okay, I need toothpaste,
Speaker 3: and I need like toilet paper and coffee filters. I
Speaker 3: thought of every possible thing that was part of my
Speaker 3: life that was a need. And I work in coffee,
Speaker 3: so I do need coffee, so aside from.
Speaker 1: The fact, but it's also just delicious.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that too, and it falls under the food
Speaker 3: category as well.
Speaker 1: Some would say it's the best part of waiting out map.
Speaker 3: Some would say that it is the best part. I
Speaker 3: think so. And when I say I work in coffee,
Speaker 3: I'm a graphic designer in the coffee industry. Just for clarity,
Speaker 3: so I made my okay lists and then if it
Speaker 3: wasn't on the okay list, then it was really not
Speaker 3: okay for me to buy. But I had some exceptions
Speaker 3: where it's like it's Okay, if I buy this, if
Speaker 3: the thing that I have breaks, or if the thing
Speaker 3: that I have gets lost and it's a need like
Speaker 3: a like a charging cable for my phone, or uh,
Speaker 3: there's not a whole lot of things.
Speaker 1: I can't think of a lot.
Speaker 3: Well, when I run out of lotion, that that's one
Speaker 3: thing that was on the list, because it's like I
Speaker 3: had so much lotion in the house that it was
Speaker 3: going to last me probably all year. But I was like,
Speaker 3: okay once, I'm not allowed to buy this until I
Speaker 3: run out a lotion.
Speaker 1: So I pretty much.
Speaker 3: Had very very precise lists of what I was allowed
Speaker 3: to buy, what I was not allowed to buy. But
Speaker 3: I didn't have like clotheses not on there. And socks.
Speaker 3: I knew I had enough socks to get me through
Speaker 3: the year, So socks is not I'm not allowed to
Speaker 3: buy socks because I had enough socks. If you're a
Speaker 3: person who like you're on your last pair and there's
Speaker 3: like a hole is about to appear on your last pair,
Speaker 3: I would say, yeah, you probably need some socks. But
Speaker 3: the thing that I have to remind people is if
Speaker 3: you're gonna do this, like your life is different than mine,
Speaker 3: and your needs are different than mine, and so anyone
Speaker 3: can do this, even if you have kids, even if
Speaker 3: you have you know, even if you're unemployed, or there's
Speaker 3: all sorts of people will suggest, like the reason I
Speaker 3: can't do that is because of these things. And and
Speaker 3: I just think anyone is able to create their own
Speaker 3: list of values and goals. Which is what I have
Speaker 3: laid out in the book is it's a guide for
Speaker 3: how to create your own buying nothing year so that
Speaker 3: it fits with your life and your needs and your lifestyle.
Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, I Like I think that's like what
Speaker 2: your first rule is that you get to set the rules, because,
Speaker 2: like you said, it comes down to the individual. You know,
Speaker 2: you were just talking about how you're able to, like
Speaker 2: you keep that spreadsheet going with all the stuff that
Speaker 2: you sell. I wanted to talk about how we oftentimes
Speaker 2: are tempted to tie our identity to the things that
Speaker 2: we buy. Because obviously, when we do sell some stuff
Speaker 2: like that helps to pad the bank accounts some But like,
Speaker 2: do you see there being a benefit when it comes
Speaker 2: to our identities, because I think a lot of times,
Speaker 2: like we're tempted into believing that we've constructed these identities
Speaker 2: but oftentimes it's based around consumption. And I'm curious if
Speaker 2: you found there to be a benefit that when you
Speaker 2: did unload certain things that it was sort of like
Speaker 2: you acknowledging to yourself that you're moving forward, like you're okay,
Speaker 2: there's growth happening here, or there's change happening here. I'm
Speaker 2: not who I used to be. I'd just love to
Speaker 2: hear your thoughts on that.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I think identity is a huge part of why
Speaker 3: I purchased so much stuff, so many vintage dresses, so
Speaker 3: many red lipsticks. It was part of my persona. And
Speaker 3: I explored this a lot as I was writing the book,
Speaker 3: because I had to think back all the way to
Speaker 3: my childhood and my younger years of like the types
Speaker 3: of things that I would buy. And you know, I
Speaker 3: went in the early two thousands, I went through this
Speaker 3: phase of like, well, I have to decorate my house
Speaker 3: and my design studio with all these posts to show
Speaker 3: how good my taste is. Or I have to have
Speaker 3: this album or you know, this book to show how
Speaker 3: intellectual I am, or have to you know, be into
Speaker 3: this band to show everyone like how good my music
Speaker 3: taste is. And like so many of the things that
Speaker 3: I purchased. I think that they were trying to They
Speaker 3: were like an expression of who I was, but I didn't.
Speaker 3: It was maybe not always, but maybe for me to
Speaker 3: show other people, and it was also for me to
Speaker 3: try and convince myself, like I was trying to figure
Speaker 3: out who I was and now, like I so back
Speaker 3: back in the days, the days of buying stuff, I
Speaker 3: had a lot. I had multiple houses. I had a
Speaker 3: gorgeous three thousand square foot freestanding modern loft with eight
Speaker 3: souzz It had two living rooms, and you know, I
Speaker 3: had to decorate this whole house and all of it
Speaker 3: was like, this is my house, This is the expression
Speaker 3: of me and who I am. And you know, I
Speaker 3: had an idea of the way people perceived me. And
Speaker 3: then I went through a very difficult time in my
Speaker 3: life and I lost everything. And that was also a
Speaker 3: pretty big factor into what played into this entire project,
Speaker 3: is losing everything that I had. You know, invested so
Speaker 3: much of my identity and money, time and energy. I
Speaker 3: put all of that into this and then I lost it.
Speaker 3: And then I still was left with me and had
Speaker 3: to figure out, Okay, well what does that look like now?
Speaker 3: And so you know, I moved across the country, and
Speaker 3: so it's this opportunity to sort of like redefine your identity.
Speaker 3: And I think people's identities change in their life as well,
Speaker 3: Like I'm not the same person that I was when
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, I have to have this band
Speaker 3: poster so people know, you know, like I don't give
Speaker 3: a crap anymore.
Speaker 1: Like what I will say That Hanson poster was really
Speaker 1: cool though, you know.
Speaker 3: No, I'm a little too old for Hansoon. No, this
Speaker 3: was like Wes Anderson days, like the early aughts. Uh huh,
Speaker 3: so you can you can only imagine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so you mentioned you mentioned, you know, losing
Speaker 1: losing it all, and you actually before we started recording,
Speaker 1: you mentioned you told us that you you lost your
Speaker 1: job earlier this year. And I'm curious after so many years, obviously,
Speaker 1: there's so many negative things about losing a job, right,
Speaker 1: It's uh, it's a loss of community with coworkers, it's
Speaker 1: something you love to do. It's like what am I
Speaker 1: going to do next to make income? But at least
Speaker 1: not having financial insecurity looming, like the sort of damicles
Speaker 1: over your head when that happens. Talk to me, it
Speaker 1: was that like a relief, uh for you knowing that, wait,
Speaker 1: I'm actually kind of prepared to wade through these waters.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it definitely. So I was laid off in the
Speaker 3: spring and now we're at the end of the year,
Speaker 3: so I've basically gone eight or nine months, and it's
Speaker 3: it in a way, it was it's actually a really
Speaker 3: it was a really good thing to be laid off
Speaker 3: because I was already thinking like it might be time
Speaker 3: for my next step career wise, and it's it's great
Speaker 3: when someone throws you in the deep end of the
Speaker 3: pool makes the decision for you. But I already had
Speaker 3: the resources and when I say resources like my tools
Speaker 3: for how to operate when I'm in financial stability and
Speaker 3: when I'm not and so and I had, you know,
Speaker 3: like I said, I had just excessive money just sitting around.
Speaker 3: Not that I you know, not times and tons of
Speaker 3: money just laying around, But I had enough where I
Speaker 3: didn't need to immediately go into a panic because I'm
Speaker 3: not spending that stuff or at that money on all
Speaker 3: this stuff. And I've continued, you know, it's been four
Speaker 3: years now, I'm about to close out my fourth year
Speaker 3: of buying essentially nothing. So I really felt scared at first,
Speaker 3: but then I could shift right over to like, here's
Speaker 3: here's what I need to do to make adjustments. And
Speaker 3: so since I wasn't buying stuff, the next move that
Speaker 3: I made to just like create a more of a
Speaker 3: sense of like, hey, I'm going to be all right
Speaker 3: till I figure out what I'm going to do, I trimmed,
Speaker 3: like I didn't allow myself to just buy whatever food
Speaker 3: I wanted to, which was the previous allowance. I could
Speaker 3: get whatever food I wanted to, Like I said, foie
Speaker 3: gras and steak and fine dining.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no more reservation.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I think being flexible like that though, that's
Speaker 2: that's so key, especially when it comes to your expenses,
Speaker 2: but also to the income side of the equation. Right,
Speaker 2: And so when we were preparing to set up this interview,
Speaker 2: you mentioned how you actually you couldn't record in one
Speaker 2: of the rooms you're planning to because you've got an
Speaker 2: Airbnb guest. It sounds like you've got some flexibility there,
Speaker 2: just being a little more open minded to what it
Speaker 2: is that it looks like to make some income maybe
Speaker 2: while things are going great, but also certainly while things
Speaker 2: may not be looking so hot, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3: I immediately started. Well, I had already planned to be
Speaker 3: hosting on Airbnb. So, like I said, I had put
Speaker 3: a deposit down on a tiny house. And in Portland,
Speaker 3: everyone who owns a property can put a tiny house
Speaker 3: or an adu on it without any permitting. And so
Speaker 3: I had shifted over from apartment living to I bought
Speaker 3: a house with the intention of leasing it out or
Speaker 3: putting it on Airbnb, and then I would be living
Speaker 3: in the tiny house. So I don't have the tiny
Speaker 3: house yet. I had to in a sense put that
Speaker 3: on pause. So I'm living in the house and I
Speaker 3: have one of my rooms up on Airbnb and I
Speaker 3: made probably four grand on that this last year, just
Speaker 3: hosting people. And I also there's an app called Neighbor
Speaker 3: where you can rent out your driveway or your.
Speaker 1: Shed to people.
Speaker 3: So I've I've been doing that as well, like little
Speaker 3: things like that. And also you know, I sell stuff.
Speaker 3: I still do that pretty regularly, and like I said,
Speaker 3: I keep track of that in my spreadsheet. I'll find
Speaker 3: things on the side of the road and sell it. Okay,
Speaker 3: to the point where I've had to sometimes tell myself, okay,
Speaker 3: you can't, you have to take a break from that
Speaker 3: because it's it's kind of addicting. And I was also
Speaker 3: in this habit of like, oh I can I can
Speaker 3: take stuff junk that I got for free and get
Speaker 3: store credit in a shop and then use that store
Speaker 3: credit to obtain something new. Like actually furnished my entire
Speaker 3: house without buying anything. Some of it I got things
Speaker 3: with store credit, some of it I got in my
Speaker 3: buy Nothing group, some of it I got on the
Speaker 3: side of the road or Craigslist for free. And I, yeah,
Speaker 3: furnished the entire Airbnb without buying stuff.
Speaker 2: And it looks awesome by the way, too, Like we
Speaker 2: know your sense of style, like you've got incredible taste,
Speaker 2: and I don't know if you've got a good photo,
Speaker 2: but maybe we'll yeah, put that out. Yeah, we'll post
Speaker 2: a pot of so that folks can see that it
Speaker 2: is possible, because I think a lot of times folks
Speaker 2: will hear this and they're thinking, oh my gosh, I
Speaker 2: bet it's like totally.
Speaker 1: Disgusting it, but it's it's my dumpster. Yeah. Do you
Speaker 1: ever find dinner on the side of the road, Liz,
Speaker 1: or do you go back that far? Okay, all right,
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering, just wanted you got to ask a question.
Speaker 1: So okay, we've got We've got a few more questions
Speaker 1: to go to and including Liz. We want to ask
Speaker 1: you about the practical side of things. How do you
Speaker 1: acquire and source the things that you want or need?
Speaker 1: You gave just a little insight, but I want to
Speaker 1: get dig a little bit deeper on that. We'll get
Speaker 1: to a few more questions with Liz right after this.
Speaker 3: Part.
Speaker 2: We are back from the break talking with Liz chy
Speaker 2: and So, Liz, earlier in the interview here, you mentioned
Speaker 2: one of the steps that you reckon for folks to
Speaker 2: take when it comes to putting together a plan to
Speaker 2: buy nothing. You mentioned I think it's step two. That's
Speaker 2: where you kind of make your separate lists for you.
Speaker 2: It's the okay list, that's the things that you give
Speaker 2: yourself appression to buy. You've got the okay if list
Speaker 2: where you are able to implement some rules, but you've
Speaker 2: also got the not okay list. Basically, these are just
Speaker 2: categories of things that you are either allowing yourself to
Speaker 2: buy or not allowing yourself to buy. But how is
Speaker 2: it that you even arrive at those lists? What is
Speaker 2: it that informs those lists, and how do we make
Speaker 2: sure that we're able to follow through with sticking to that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like I was saying earlier, you really need to
Speaker 3: go hard. You need to truly challenge yourself. Otherwise it's
Speaker 3: just too easy. And I've even found in even in
Speaker 3: my years of buying nothing, it's almost too easy. Like
Speaker 3: I was able to furnish my whole house without buying
Speaker 3: stuff and just just by being resourceful. So I would say,
Speaker 3: one thing I did while I was making my list
Speaker 3: was just look around my house and be like, how
Speaker 3: did I get that? How did I get that? Is
Speaker 3: that something that I would want to buy during the year?
Speaker 3: Is it some you know, like something that is one
Speaker 3: of my vices, like going I would go to the
Speaker 3: art store and buy gel pens, even though I have
Speaker 3: like hundreds of pens. Nobody needs more gel pens. So
Speaker 3: I'd put things that were like my big vices on
Speaker 3: that not okay list, almost as like a reminder of
Speaker 3: the things like, hey, I know you're really gonna want this,
Speaker 3: you're not allowed to get it. So otherwise it's it's
Speaker 3: pretty easy to just say, well, if I'm not buying
Speaker 3: anything unless it's on the okay list, then everything is
Speaker 3: not okay. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1: Yeah, the default.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I didn't really even need to look at
Speaker 3: the not okay list. It was sort of just there
Speaker 3: as like this hey, last minute reminder of like, no,
Speaker 3: you cannot get another journal, you cannot get like another
Speaker 3: vintage dress, you can't get another you know whatever it
Speaker 3: is that is my things that I would really really want.
Speaker 3: So it almost just became not necessary for me to
Speaker 3: look at that list. It was more the okay lists
Speaker 3: of just this reminder you're allowed to get these things
Speaker 3: and nothing else.
Speaker 1: I just kind of had the thought that living in
Speaker 1: America makes this possible. Right, the kind of conspicuous consumption
Speaker 1: lifestyle that most people adopt, the vast majority of people adopt,
Speaker 1: means that you can kind of get there gently use
Speaker 1: secondhand stuff. I mean, I was talking to a friend
Speaker 1: who's remodeling his place, and he was just talking about
Speaker 1: how people remodel their kitchen every two or three years,
Speaker 1: and I was like, wait, who are these people? He says,
Speaker 1: some people remodel their kitchen every too, And so the
Speaker 1: appliance is he's buying, is he's rehabbing his home, are
Speaker 1: gently used they're gorgeous and they're a third of the price.
Speaker 1: It's it's if you just look into that ecosystem and
Speaker 1: you can thrive off the secondhand, hand me downs, discounted
Speaker 1: or fully free items that other people are willing to
Speaker 1: give away. It's not I mean, the phrase one man's
Speaker 1: trash is another man's treasure comes to mind here. But
Speaker 1: don't you think that part of it is because we
Speaker 1: live in this society of incredible extreme abundance, that means
Speaker 1: like living off the fat of the land that other
Speaker 1: people don't want to is just much easier than it
Speaker 1: would be in a lot of other places.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think people are picking up on that too,
Speaker 3: and that's why there's this there's a movement where people
Speaker 3: are giving out of their abundance in different online groups,
Speaker 3: and people constantly have this need to get rid of
Speaker 3: their too much stuff. And so if you're resourceful or
Speaker 3: if you're patient, then you can usually find the thing
Speaker 3: that you're looking for without having to buy it all.
Speaker 1: Right, So in that ecosystem you've mentioned Facebook buying nothink groups,
Speaker 1: people know, people know about those. I think for the
Speaker 1: most part, Facebook marketplace another place typically you're buying or trading.
Speaker 1: I guess with people in that you must have stumbled
Speaker 1: upon other ecosystems and even well, how else do you
Speaker 1: source things? Are you like actually going to your neighbor
Speaker 1: to get a cup of sugar when you don't have it?
Speaker 1: Whereas most people like don't do that, They like click
Speaker 1: to buy on instacart or something like that, like what
Speaker 1: other muscles? Has it made you exercise? And where else
Speaker 1: have you looked to gather things that you otherwise would
Speaker 1: have just clicked to purchase?
Speaker 3: Well, definitely there are some items that I would have
Speaker 3: just gone out and purchased if I hadn't completely shifted
Speaker 3: my mentality on this stuff. So borrowing things kind of
Speaker 3: forgot about that until it turns out that that's like
Speaker 3: maybe the only way I can get like I need
Speaker 3: a shovel because I have to dig a hole, or
Speaker 3: I need a ladder, So I've borrowed those things from
Speaker 3: my neighbors. I have actually borrowed a cup of sugar
Speaker 3: from a neighbor from my buy nothing group where I
Speaker 3: put lend me some sugar babes in the vina thing
Speaker 3: group and ended up with you know what I needed,
Speaker 3: and I you know, I could have gone to this
Speaker 3: store to buy sugar, but why not just go a
Speaker 3: few houses up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like it's funny how you positioned it, which
Speaker 2: is like, oh, it's this thing that I had forgotten
Speaker 2: about borrowing, because, like Joel's saying, like, we do live
Speaker 2: in such a country that is so rich and abundant
Speaker 2: and comfortable that we forget about this folks, the old
Speaker 2: thing of borrowing something. And we also miss out on
Speaker 2: the benefit of getting to know the people who live
Speaker 2: around us when we choose to isolate ourselves so click
Speaker 2: to buy kind of mentality when we're so self sufficient, Yes,
Speaker 2: as opposed to leaning into other folks. And Yeah, there's
Speaker 2: a there's a loneliness that comes with that comfort that
Speaker 2: I what I'm hearing you say is that you're experiencing
Speaker 2: that community in a richer way than maybe you otherwise
Speaker 2: would have.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually borrowed a pair of headphones for this podcast.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. I love that. I love that. I mean,
Speaker 1: and it's one of those things where you can say, listen,
Speaker 1: I've got to book. The just came out and it's
Speaker 1: going to be massively successful, and I'm going to get
Speaker 1: on dozens of famous podcasts. And so this is something
Speaker 1: I can make an exception for. But even in that
Speaker 1: you found a way to borrow at borrow something instead
Speaker 1: of buying something new. Okay, let's say we opt to
Speaker 1: take this route. Let's say people are listening and they're saying, like, okay, cool,
Speaker 1: maybe this time for me to go cold turkey to
Speaker 1: buy nothing. It's January twenty twenty four, a perfect time
Speaker 1: to make a change. How do you have conversations with
Speaker 1: friends and family who might be shocked by the choice
Speaker 1: that you're making. Is this or let's say you have
Speaker 1: a spouse or a partner who's a big time spender,
Speaker 1: or kids who I don't know, how do you kind
Speaker 1: of start to have those conversations. I'm guessing that when
Speaker 1: you went into this you some people were like, whoa,
Speaker 1: this is crazy. Have you gone off the deep end?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I did actually have a lot of people who
Speaker 3: pushed back on it. I generally surround myself with supportive
Speaker 3: people anyway, so there wasn't a lot of discouragement. But
Speaker 3: if you find yourself in a situation where maybe your
Speaker 3: family members aren't too keen on your idea, especially if
Speaker 3: it's like your kids are like, but how am I
Speaker 3: going to get this stuff that I want? I always
Speaker 3: go back to this, It's just you can't. You cannot
Speaker 3: control other people. You can really only do this sort
Speaker 3: of thing for yourself. And so there are many times
Speaker 3: when I talk about buying nothing that I have someone
Speaker 3: come up to me and say, well, can you get
Speaker 3: my wife to stop buying? And I was like, no, No,
Speaker 3: it doesn't work that way, Like, you can't, that's not
Speaker 3: the way inspiration works. So I encourage people to just
Speaker 3: focus on themselves and maybe complete the endeavor on their own,
Speaker 3: and it might inspire change in other people. And I
Speaker 3: think that that's a much better way to operate, so
Speaker 3: especially if they're facing that sort of pushback while you're
Speaker 3: doing it for yourself and there might be the icing
Speaker 3: on the cake of it buying other people. And I've
Speaker 3: had a lot of people come to me saying like,
Speaker 3: I really need help with this, or I really want
Speaker 3: to get your thoughts, or I'm thinking about doing this,
Speaker 3: can you help me? And so it's a lot better
Speaker 3: than trying to force your ways on other people.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's like living that lifestyle, it can be contagious, right,
Speaker 1: and so you can it's the old Saint Francis of
Speaker 1: a CC like preach the gospel and when necessary use
Speaker 1: words and so it's like living out the life of
Speaker 1: someone doing something different as opposed to be and super
Speaker 1: preachy about it and say like join the bandwagon. So
Speaker 1: as you just have to do the thing that you
Speaker 1: know is right for you and hope that other people
Speaker 1: join you in the endeavor.
Speaker 3: And I do think it would be inspiring for the
Speaker 3: people that you're around, just I guess based off my
Speaker 3: own experience. And it's like a be the change moment too,
Speaker 3: where you get to contribute in your own way to
Speaker 3: maybe improving the world around you, and you really only
Speaker 3: have that chance. You're only able to change what you
Speaker 3: can change in your own life and hopefully it leads
Speaker 3: to positive change in other people.
Speaker 2: So that's true. Yeah, I think you said that that
Speaker 2: once you've done it yourself and have seen some of
Speaker 2: that positive change, like you automatically qualify as an expert
Speaker 2: at that point, because what are you gonna do deny
Speaker 2: my personal experience? Of course not it's said the ability
Speaker 2: to of course not hit somebody over the head with that,
Speaker 2: but for them to see that as a bystander, hopefully
Speaker 2: can inspire them to make some change, and Liz, hopefully
Speaker 2: this conversation has done the same. We hopefully folks are
Speaker 2: able to leave this episode with just a little more
Speaker 2: fire underneath them to perhaps do something that they thought
Speaker 2: would would have been previously completely undoable. Little countercultural. Not
Speaker 2: possible exactly. But so your book's out, how to buy
Speaker 2: essentially Nothing for a year? Where where is it that
Speaker 2: folks can learn more about that book and to learn
Speaker 2: more about you and what you're up to.
Speaker 3: Well, the book is available. You can go to buy
Speaker 3: it essentially nothing dot com. It's self published, but you
Speaker 3: can purchase the book online. It will be available as
Speaker 3: a print or as a digital download. And I don't
Speaker 3: have social media set up for the book. I've pretty
Speaker 3: much just operated on my own. I even had a
Speaker 3: year of no social media and it was twenty twenty one.
Speaker 3: So right after that New York Times article came out,
Speaker 3: I went dark social and was like, well, I'm doing
Speaker 3: this for myself. Sorry, I'm not here to sit here
Speaker 3: and like promote my thing. But if you want to
Speaker 3: visit my channel on Instagram, I'm at Chai Americano. That's
Speaker 3: just my personal account where I post a lot of
Speaker 3: stuff about buying essentially nothing, but I also talk about
Speaker 3: coffee a lot. Coffee too bad.
Speaker 1: I love it. Liz. This has been such a great
Speaker 1: combo and good to catch up with an old friend.
Speaker 1: So thank you for joining us today on the show.
Speaker 3: Thank you guys so much.
Speaker 2: Well man, that was fun. It really was good to
Speaker 2: talk with an old friend with My big takeaway is
Speaker 2: that we need to have friends who write books so
Speaker 2: that we can have them on there's an excuse to
Speaker 2: have them on the.
Speaker 1: Podcast of our other friends would not be great. Guess
Speaker 1: you know who we're talking.
Speaker 2: They don't want to come on the show and talk
Speaker 2: to us anymore than they have to. But uh now,
Speaker 2: this really was an awesome conversation about just curbing our consumption.
Speaker 1: With Liz Chi.
Speaker 2: But Joel, yeah, did you have an actual big takeaway
Speaker 2: for folks today?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: So or for you as an individual that you want
Speaker 2: to share with folks. It's not for other people, it's
Speaker 2: for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think from just a macro perspective, it's amazing
Speaker 1: how much money you can save. She thought she was
Speaker 1: going to be a perpetual renter. She was able to
Speaker 1: buy a house, and so I think, like it's not
Speaker 1: an insignificant amount of money you can save if you
Speaker 1: kind of take this Liz Chai buy nothing mentality and
Speaker 1: you adopt it into your own life. But I think
Speaker 1: my big takeaway was when she said I wanted to
Speaker 1: experience satisfaction and that buying nothing was something that was
Speaker 1: going to increase her happiness in life. And I do
Speaker 1: think that sometimes the retail therapy buying stuff is covering over,
Speaker 1: it's glossing over maybe some deeper feelings that we've got
Speaker 1: going on, and it allows us to kind of skim over,
Speaker 1: not have to feel them, satisfy them through consumption. And
Speaker 1: I think maybe the more we curve back on that,
Speaker 1: we might actually have like some stuff, some hard things
Speaker 1: to deal with as we consume less, because that has
Speaker 1: been kind of like a bomb that we applied to
Speaker 1: a wound, and then when that wound is just kind
Speaker 1: of open, it's it's revealing and it's we have to
Speaker 1: actually deal with the underlying problem. So it's not even
Speaker 1: a ball, and it just kind of like it's a
Speaker 1: dirty bandage over it. It's like I can't see it anymore.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's better, right, but in fact it is still
Speaker 1: there and that's the problem too. I mean I kind
Speaker 1: of mentioned this at the very very beginning of the episode,
Speaker 1: just how high wage earners are dealing with as well,
Speaker 1: because we just continually move the goalposts and we think that, oh, well,
Speaker 1: this used to make me happy and it doesn't anymore.
Speaker 2: But what I act, truly, what I need now is this. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And like you said, we oftentimes don't address the underlying
Speaker 2: issues there.
Speaker 1: And there's no end to the things you can desire
Speaker 1: and the things you can buy. And then it's like
Speaker 1: you got the new house, but then you can buy
Speaker 1: all the stuff.
Speaker 2: But then after that you're buying. You're buying companies, yeah,
Speaker 2: and renaming them or you're.
Speaker 1: Like, listen, I got the house, but now now I
Speaker 1: need a pool in the backyard to be real happy.
Speaker 1: And it's a bittero effect right there. Yeah, we all
Speaker 1: have experienced that, like we You and I not immune
Speaker 1: from that in any way, form or fashion. And I
Speaker 1: need to take a lot of this medicine myself. So
Speaker 1: that is that's why I really wanted to talk to
Speaker 1: Liz read her book. I don't know that I will
Speaker 1: go whole hog the way that she has, but I
Speaker 1: definitely am planning to incorporate a lot of kind of
Speaker 1: the ways that she's talked about buying less, curbing consumption
Speaker 1: in her own life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so my big takeaway is going to be super practical.
Speaker 2: And she mentioned the birthday list, and she writes about
Speaker 2: this more in depth in the book. But the ability
Speaker 2: to create a list, an ongoing list of things that
Speaker 2: you want or things that you think you need. But
Speaker 2: by forcing yourself to not immediately go into Amazon, added
Speaker 2: to your card and click, you know, click to buy. Well,
Speaker 2: by denying yourself you see that over time, Oh, actually
Speaker 2: that isn't necessary. But then b if you do still
Speaker 2: want that thing when it does come time to be
Speaker 2: your birthday, well, guess what, You've got some awesome gifts
Speaker 2: that you're going to be so stoked about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that you can mention to folks. So you've been
Speaker 1: salivating over for months.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's not like it's some game changing tactic,
Speaker 2: but just the mind there's a shift in mindset that
Speaker 2: takes place, and that has taken place with technology. Just
Speaker 2: our ability to buy any and everything that we need
Speaker 2: like the second you think about it. And so just
Speaker 2: to govern ourselves a little bit by saying, well, do
Speaker 2: I actually need that thing and holding off a little bit.
Speaker 2: I think by implementing a strategy, just like she mentioned
Speaker 2: creating a birthday list that can kind of be a
Speaker 2: mental check. It's there as a mechanism that gives you pause,
Speaker 2: and I think that that's more than anything what it
Speaker 2: is that we need oftentimes in.
Speaker 1: Our lives, and also make my mom happier because then
Speaker 1: when she asked me what I want for my birthday Christmas,
Speaker 1: I actually have something to tell it because I'm used
Speaker 1: to buying what I need exactly what I think I
Speaker 1: need at least, and instead of doing that, I can
Speaker 1: let her take care of yes and actually give her
Speaker 1: the satisfaction being able to buy me something that I want.
Speaker 2: It's one of those shifts that takes place as you
Speaker 2: we're like, oh, I'm a grown man, I can buy
Speaker 2: my own things. Yeah, and then when it does come
Speaker 2: time for I'm getting off track. But like when it
Speaker 2: does come time to forgift giving, it's something that you
Speaker 2: feel prepared for. It makes me also think about the
Speaker 2: little conversation we had about community and the fact that
Speaker 2: that is also something that is denied by our ability
Speaker 2: to purchase anything whenever it is that we we don't
Speaker 2: have to ask our neighbor for things because oh, I
Speaker 2: can order it right now, and then the delivery guy
Speaker 2: Amazon man, he'll show up this afternoon. No need to
Speaker 2: text your neighbors or let alone walk over to their house.
Speaker 2: Oh God forbid you actually go over to their house
Speaker 2: and see them in person knock on the door, when
Speaker 2: in reality, that's just such a rich way to foster
Speaker 2: community and get to know your neighbors.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Agree, I like that part as well. I'm all
Speaker 1: for individualism has many benefits. But individualism and community are
Speaker 1: symbiotic in my estimation, right that they do. Oh, you
Speaker 1: can be overly individualistic and you can be overly relying
Speaker 1: on your community, but both are important and they can
Speaker 1: live together in harmony. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when it comes to what it looks like for
Speaker 2: us to be well rounded individuals, got to have a
Speaker 2: little bit of both of that in there for sure.
Speaker 3: Man.
Speaker 2: Let's get to our beer. We enjoyed a dead on.
Speaker 2: This is a double IPA brewed by hid and River Brewing.
Speaker 1: What were your thoughts, buddy, Maybe this one was very
Speaker 1: similar actually to the last one that we had from them.
Speaker 1: This was soft and hoppy. It was delicious. It was
Speaker 1: cloud like in its levity, but also brought a hot
Speaker 1: punch like I. Whatever this brewery is doing, they're doing
Speaker 1: it right. I've never had anything by them until recently,
Speaker 1: and I'm in. I'm sold.
Speaker 2: It makes me realize how many great breweries there must
Speaker 2: be across this massive country that we, yes, we've never
Speaker 2: heard of. Yeah yeah, it's not even on our radar.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so glad you and I got to enjoy
Speaker 2: this double I p A. I mean, honestly, it makes
Speaker 2: me want to visit Pennsylvania because we've had multiple beers
Speaker 2: now from Pennsylvania that are phenomenal. But uh yeah, big
Speaker 2: thanks again to Rihanna for donating this one to the show,
Speaker 2: and head over to the website howamoney dot com.
Speaker 1: Up there.
Speaker 2: In the show notes for this episode, you'll find links
Speaker 2: to Liz's site, where it is that you can not
Speaker 2: only learn more about her, but also buy her.
Speaker 1: Book and then after that buy nothing else. Right, all right,
Speaker 1: that's gonna do it? Right?
Speaker 2: You can download it, I guess, so if you've got
Speaker 2: a kindle, you know you can. It doesn't have to
Speaker 2: be a physical item that you've got laying around.
Speaker 1: But in her book has worksheets and stuff that kind
Speaker 1: of help you, like, actually do the work of figuring
Speaker 1: out how to do it, as opposed to just telling
Speaker 1: you how she did it. That's true, all right, that's
Speaker 1: gonna do it for this episode, Matt. Until next time.
Speaker 1: Best friends have best Friends Out