WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 3 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:05.560 The Gangster Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:09.680 around underworld, the criminals and entertainers into victims, crime and 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:13.040 law enforcement. We cover all facets of the game. Gainster 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:17.520 Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify promotilised activities. We just discussed the 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:20.680 ramifications and repercussions of these activities. Because at the Wall 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:24.320 you played gamester games, you are ultimately rewarded with Gangster prizes. 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:27.680 Our Heart radio is number one for podcasts, but don't 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:30.680 take our award for it. Find against the Chronicles podcast 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:33.400 and I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcast. 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:38.919 This is Roxanne Gay, the host of The Roxanne Gay Agenda, 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:42.760 the bad feminist podcast of your Dreams. Each week I 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:47.120 talked to an interesting person about feminism, race, writing and 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:51.360 books and art, food, pop culture and yes, politics, we 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:56.120 can't escape politics. Listen to the luminary original podcast, The 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:59.960 Roxanne Gay Agenda every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app, 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:06.440 Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys. 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:08.440 I'm a Shop Bloud and I am Troy Millions and 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:10.800 we are the host of the Earnier Leisure podcast where 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.839 we break down business models and examine the latest trends 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:16.480 in finance. We hold court and have exclusive interviews with 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:18.760 some of the biggest names of business, sport, and entertainment, 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:21.920 from DJ Khaled to Mark Cuban, Rick Ross and Shaquill O'Neil. 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:24.600 I mean our alumni lists expansive. Listen to the as 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:27.200 our guests reveal their business models, hardships and triumphs and 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:29.280 their respective fields. The knowledge is in death and the 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:32.280 questions are always delivered from your standpoint. We want to 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:34.280 know what you want to know. We talked to the 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:37.360 legends of business, sports and entertainment about how they got 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:40.000 their start and most importantly, how they make their money. 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:42.360 Earn your Leisia is a college business class mixed with 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:45.440 pop culture. Want to learn about the real estate game, unclears, 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:48.000 how the stock market works? We got you interested in 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:50.440 starting a truck and company or vendor machine business? Not 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:53.160 really sure about how taxes or credit work. We got 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:56.120 it all covered. The Earnier Leisure podcast is available now. 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.360 Listen to Earnier Leisure on the Black Effect podcast Network. 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:02.600 I are Radio, app, Apple podcast or wherever you get 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:10.440 your podcasts. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:13.520 to let you know, this is a compilation episode, So 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:17.240 every episode of the week that just happened is here 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:21.200 in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:23.400 you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:25.959 If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.200 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, But you 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:33.960 can make your own decisions. This is it could happen 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:38.680 here a podcast that I opened perfectly as a professional, 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:40.480 as a man who makes all of his money from 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:46.480 the podcasts uh no, notes, How was syphilis doing these days? 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:48.360 You don't hear a lot from syphilis? Is it? Is 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:50.919 it holding up? Okay, yeah, it's around. It's fine. Thank 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:53.960 you for asking it. I didn't know that. It's not 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:56.400 the same thread it used to be. It comes back 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:58.680 in waves every now and then. It has had a 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:00.600 good run for a couple of It's kind of like 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:06.200 Star Trek, right, yeah, yeah, there's a well, I don't 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.079 think there's like new versions of it. I think it's 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:10.240 like the same, good old syphilis pretty much. I don't 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:15.919 think it changes drastically, So it's like Star Trek on Netflix. Yeah, yeah, okay, Well, 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:19.360 good to hear from syphilis. This has been your syphilis update. 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:22.200 That's gonna do it for us this week until next week. 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:26.200 I've been Robert Evans, Dr. Cavajota, and of course Garrison Davis. 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:32.600 All Right, everyone by, It would be pretty funny to 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:34.600 just do that, Sophie, to just drop a one and 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:38.640 a half minute episode on, But only if we put 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:43.640 in ads. M Yeah, we really like every word. We 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:48.080 have a full ad break in between. Yeah, then then 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:50.600 people would probably complain lest about the nine ads that 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:54.920 are in our episodes. Right now, I can talk about 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:56.720 syphili What are we what are we doing right now? 0:03:56.760 --> 0:04:00.640 What is this episode about? What's going on? I'm assuming 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:04.960 you guys want to talk about the coronavirus or I 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:06.880 don't know. I can talk about whatever you want, but 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:09.640 I think that's probably what you guys brought me on for. 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:11.880 All right, what do we what is this coronavirus? Is 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:15.520 this a problem? It's a little problem. It's not good 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:19.039 to hear it's it's it's not great. So why didn't 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:22.200 you give me a heads up on this? So? Yeah, 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:24.800 that that's me not giving you heads up on the plankue. 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:31.200 The thing's talking about hear anything about this? This is 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.560 the mask thing. That's why you got those two jabs 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:37.640 in your arms and that random parking lot. Oh I 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:43.240 thought that was heroin. Sorry. First of all, can can 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:45.520 we talk about the use of the word jab. I 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:48.320 don't love it. It's I mean, you're not James Bond, 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:53.120 you don't. Let's not use jab. Prefer it's fair. I 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:59.120 prefer what I think is the proper medical term vain fucked. Yeah, 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:01.000 but it's not really your vein either. It's really just 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:05.560 intramuscular fucked. Oh right, muscle fucked. Yeah. I mean, what 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:07.840 what are the cool kids calling it? Is it a poke? 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:10.280 What do we want? What are the teens call it? 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:14.479 Is it? Are they calling it the TikTok's? Yeah, it's 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:16.680 called it's called the TikTok. I don't know. I've I've 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:20.560 been been working on I've been working on a all 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:24.719 day Today've been working to find this proud boy who's 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:29.240 pretending to take COVID vaccines but it's actually steroids. Um. 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:36.520 He calls the critical support, he calls the extracurriculars. Okay, 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:41.160 So that honestly rules, that's extremely funny. I'm hoping an 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.800 article will be out by the time this podcast airs so, uh, 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:47.920 who's the article for. I'm not sure yet. I'm talking 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:52.359 with Opossum Press. Okay, cool, Well that's funny, Garrison. What 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:54.960 is today's episode about? Well, we we want to talk 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:58.440 to We wanted to talk to Cava about both what 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:01.440 the current plagues had situation is because a lot of 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:03.480 people seem to think it's over, a lot of people 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:06.599 seem to think it's not over. Um. And then also, 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.560 how is COVID and all the stuff still affecting our 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:13.880 hospital and medical system? Um? Is there supply shortages for 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:18.640 medical supplies? What's going on in different areas? Yeah, because 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:21.760 all of that, all that kind of stuff got you. 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:26.840 Yes is the answer? Yes, the answer, it's the answer. Yeah, 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:29.440 it's a it's still a problem. I don't think. Uh, 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:32.000 don't listen to anyone who tells you that it's not um. 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:34.160 Don't listen to anyone who gives you too Sonny of 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:37.839 forecast on it. But it you know, it's different in 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:40.800 different places, is the long the short of it. In 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:45.280 places where the vaccinations are higher and where there's mandates 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:48.840 and there's reasonable laws about things, the rates are going 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:56.840 down California, but also like Rhode Island, Maine, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont. 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:00.800 These are places with high vaccination rates. The rates of 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:04.880 cases are going down in those places. Places like Mississippi, 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:09.640 West Virginia, Idaho, Alabama, these are places where like it's 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:15.400 vaccination rates and the cases are going way up. You 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:17.840 guys might have heard of a couple of things happening, 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.280 Like there was that forty six year old guy named 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.360 Daniel Wilkinson. He's like a vet who developed something called 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:26.320 gallstone pancreatitis, which I could talk to you guys about 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.040 for hours. I won't, don't worry, but I could. I'm 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:32.440 just like you know, I could. I mean the Idaho 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:35.200 they have been cleared. It's not a total DNR, but 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:38.800 like anyone who has um cardiac arrest is on a 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:40.800 DNR now in Idaho because they just don't have the 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:44.320 resources to be well, that's not entire I mean what 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:47.760 am I? Okay? So that's not your fault. You got 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:49.360 it wrong, because there were there were doctors that were 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:52.160 sort of spreading that story about now they are and 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:55.160 what's called the crisis standard of care. But and in 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:58.600 part of that means that hospitals could go to putting 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.640 everyone on DNR, which means do not resuscitate, which means 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:04.640 if you have a cardiac arrest, they won't do anything 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:08.080 about it. That's that's not what's actually happening. It could happen. 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.480 What what when they institute this crisis standard of care. 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:14.320 What it means is that if a hospital gets so 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.720 short on their ventilators and they just don't have any 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.960 more room, then they could implement that. I mean, I 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:23.160 don't know, I even't heard of anyone. I was I 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:25.480 was asking around uh to see if any doctors in 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:27.760 Idaho could tell me of a hospital that's actually doing it. 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:30.400 I haven't seen or heard of one that's actually doing 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:32.880 it yet, but they could. The point is, it's it's 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.240 that bad where that's a reasonable discussion where doctors have 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:38.400 to discuss kind of like they were back in the 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.199 day in New York, where they have to be like, okay, 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:43.679 does this person do we put the you know, the 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:48.120 young lady on the mental lator or the old guy? 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:50.439 You know? Then we have to decide and they make 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:53.160 those decisions. It's really awful. It's a position no doctor 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:55.800 wants to be in, and now that's becoming a reality. 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:59.360 It's brutal. It's brutal out there and and that's bleeding 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.640 into other states nearby, you know, So is that what 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:06.320 you mean by the Welkerson situation because his doctor like 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.559 couldn't find uh an ICU bed for him. Is that 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:12.240 that is that the story you're talking about? That's the story. 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:14.240 So he's this guy who had a problem that can 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:16.240 be fixed. I mean, it's a procedure called an e 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.600 RCP that he can get done at specialty centers. And 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:22.520 he didn't live far from Houston. Houston has plenty of 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:24.640 the specialty centers that can do it. They have great 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:28.400 guests from urologists like myself, not as good, but you know, 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:30.960 the same sort of thing. And they could do it 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.280 if they if they, you know, if they had the 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:37.560 availability to get him in. But they didn't, and so 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.120 he died. Is something that he shouldn't love. It's basically 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.000 the example. And I'm sure there's more examples of that. 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:46.240 And what really worries me is the examples that you're 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:50.439 not hearing yet, like cases they're delayed now, cancer screening, 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.360 things that are being delayed now in these hospitals that 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:57.120 we're gonna be paying down the road. That's that's the 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:01.559 ship that really scares me great, like just people not 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:07.040 going in for things in general. Yeah exactly, I have 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:08.960 friends other than you who work in E R s 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:13.360 and stuff, um, nurses and the doctor um, and it's 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:17.040 up in the pm W. But the ship they're saying, 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:22.319 it's like in the day's crap, like like I they 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:25.640 are working on like building capacity and making sure they 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.240 have things to like treat their friends because it's they're 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:31.560 like the advices do not go to the hospital like 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:33.959 if if, if at all possible, because there's just not 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:38.600 capacity for you unless it's like literally an immediate life 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:42.960 and death thing. It's it's almost uh not worth like 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.959 trying because there's just nothing. There's no slack the system 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:49.520 is and it's it's it's starting to turn. It looks 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:51.560 like here in in in the Portland area, but like 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:57.000 it's it's frightening, like these are not people who would 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:00.360 be bullshitting or or are are are prone to panic, 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:05.240 you know, they're e er professionals. But it's it's it's 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.480 fucked up, like it's it's it it's this thing where 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:10.480 like the scary thing to me is not even necessarily 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:12.920 where we are right now, because it does like there 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:15.440 is some kind of broadly positive news in a lot 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:17.719 of areas about like where the pandemic is going. It's 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:23.080 just like this situation won't be fixed when case numbers 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.960 go down. It's it's it's going to be permanent damage 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:28.400 has been done to this system. And I guess what 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:31.720 I'm wondering, first off, like from what you're seeing, like, 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.960 what what is the extent of the permanent damage done 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:38.360 to our our emergency medical system in particular and our 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:43.240 our ability to even like get care at the moment. Yeah, 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:45.240 that's a really good question. I don't I don't know. 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.480 It kind of goes back to I think what Garrison 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:49.320 want to talk about, which is like the collapse of 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:52.480 the medical system. I think we talk about it a 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.960 lot in terms of we're on the edge of collapse, 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.000 we're near collapse. I think there are places in this 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:03.040 country where or he has collapsed. I think that's pretty evident. 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:06.520 It's really it's not homogeneous in any way across this country. 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:09.240 There are certainly places that are better than others, and 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:13.000 there's certainly places that have a lot more uh leeway 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:16.800 and flexibility, but everywhere is strained right now. And in 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:20.040 regards to your question about permanent damage. I'll answer that 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:25.319 in regards to just the personnel. You know, because um, 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:27.600 because of the show that I have, the House of 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:29.920 Pod follow us on Twitter at the House of Pod, 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:34.440 and I talked to a lot of doctors and nurses 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.240 from all over the country, talk to them a lot. 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:41.480 And it's bad. I mean, the stress that they're under, 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:46.720 the pts D that they're that they're dealing with, the burnout. 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:49.640 The level of burnout is just intense. It's intense and 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.840 and it's I think we were talking about moral injury 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:56.120 and burnout before all this started, and now it is 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:58.360 to a point where I don't know what's going to 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:00.640 happen to the medical system, just in ms of the 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.480 personnel when this is all over. I know a lot 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:05.920 of people who are getting out of medicine, getting out 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.520 clinical medicine. I mean out of like I would I 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.360 would say, out of just my immediate friend group. I 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:14.480 can think of a couple off hand excellent doctors, really 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:17.080 great I c u e er doctors who are already 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.240 planning their exit. And when I don't know, I mean 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.520 in the next coming years, that's gonna be a major issue. 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:25.120 And I don't know how we're going to address that. 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:26.960 And our nurses in the I c U. S. Man, 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:28.280 the stuff they have to put up with is and 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:30.680 is insane. You just see it in their eyes. Eyes 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:34.040 are broken, like I was. I volunteered on the wards 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:38.640 a couple of weeks ago, and people, they're the doctors 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:40.680 and nurses taking care of these CODE patients day in 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:44.880 day out, like they there's like a little bit of 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:47.400 their soul that's been broken, And just see it in 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:50.800 their eyes like I was there for like just a week, 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:53.839 and it's terrifying. You know, you're going into a room 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:56.760 with a patient with COVID. It's scary. You know, even 0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:59.240 no matter how much ppe protective equipment you have on, 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.240 you're always a little scared. And I just think years 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:05.640 of that that way is on a person in a 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:07.760 way I don't I mean, I am worried about. I 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:11.800 don't know how we're going to address that. M h yeah, 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:14.679 that's cool. Yeah, And it's frustrating because like from the 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:17.000 perspective of people listening, right, the thing you want to 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.040 ask is like, well, how can I help, And it's like, well, 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:21.840 you can't because you're already if you're listening to the 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.560 show I assume you're masking. I assume you've gotten vaccinated. 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:26.720 If you don't have like a condition that that renders 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:30.280 you unable to get the vaccine, you're you're I. I 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.680 think our listeners tend to be pretty responsible people. It's 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:38.200 just not enough because of the country decided to like 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:45.760 Leroy Jenkins a plague and um god, Garrison, do you 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:48.640 know that reference? Is that? Get that reference? I'm familiar 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:53.440 with Leroy Jenkins. That's good. Were you born when Leroy 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.160 Jenkins became a thing, I don't know, you would have 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:58.760 been like three, would have been. Yeah, yeah, it was. 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:02.600 It was deadpool that them to your attention, isn't it? No? No, 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:07.400 I it came to my attention just doing general Internet. Yeah, 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:08.960 it was one of the first. It was the first 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:12.200 meme that you could show your parents pretty much. I 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:14.440 guess they were like Badger Badger, Mushroom, a couple of 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:16.160 others in that category, but like, it was one of 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.800 the first memes that wasn't a man's gaping asshole prolapsed. 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:26.240 But I showed my parents that all the time. I 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:30.000 don't know. Yeah, there was a beautiful moment back in 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:33.880 the day with some sea a stadium. Yeah, that's what 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:36.520 brought you in the medicine. This is what I saw work. 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:38.720 They were so proud of me, like, look at look 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:41.240 at our look at our boy, Look at our boy. 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:43.920 He can tell us exactly why that man's asshole looks 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:49.760 that way. I have a weird job, I guess. One 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:52.760 of my questions is, with the assumption that people are 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:57.280 taking the actual plague related steps they can to reduce 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:02.080 their burden to the medical system, what can people realistically do? 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:03.880 I mean, I think part of that is and this 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:05.960 is and I'm not gonna have you to like explain 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:09.360 how you can take care of your own medical treatments 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.280 in an emergency on a podcast. That's not the time 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:15.040 or the place. Although I do think it's probably a 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:17.760 good idea for people to read up on first aid 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:20.560 and basic life saving emergency Like it's always a good 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:23.840 idea to to have some training there. But yeah, I mean, 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:27.400 do you have other advice? You know, you're exactly right. 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:30.200 The people that are listening to this podcast are totally 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:34.680 on board already, and they're super supportive, and we appreciate that. 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:38.480 I mean that is not unnoticed. I mean, um, you know, 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:43.760 it's having people like, uh, outside the hospitals every now 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:47.480 and then, applauding doctors. I know it's cheesy, but it's great. 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:51.320 I'll take that over the blue angels flying overhead any day, 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:54.600 you know. So it's that's that stuff is really important, 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.200 and masking and taking care of themselves is is great, 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:02.440 you know. Um. The the real practical things that people 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:06.040 can do, I think, uh is help contribute to sites 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:08.480 that will help get the rest of the world vaccinated. 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:12.640 I mean, we can definitely talk about that the question 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.080 of boosters here versus you know, vaccines for the first 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:18.920 time elsewhere. But there That's the one thing I would 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:22.280 recommend right now if you want to help, um, let's 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:26.000 put our money into places where we can get vaccines 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:29.280 to other places. And I think that every little bit 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:31.640 of that helps in the long run. And and that's 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:34.320 the sort of thing that we could use. Other than that, 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:37.080 I mean, I just hope that people are still going 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.840 into medicine and in nursing. You know. That's the only 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:42.000 thing I can still hope is that people who haven't 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:45.240 interest in it, you know, continue to do it. And 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:48.280 and for those people who are just their training, those 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:51.240 years of their formative years are during this time. I 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:53.680 just want to let them know. I swear it gets better. 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:57.480 It's not always gonna be like this. And if you 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:01.680 make it through this, you're gonna be an amazing clinician, 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:03.359 You're gonna be an amazing nurse, You're gonna be an 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:06.000 amazing doctor. And I really want you guys to keep 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:09.359 doing it. That's that's one thing I would say to Yeah, 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:11.600 I mean, and I I'll certainly add that if you're 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:15.520 someone who's contemplating a medical career, please please, I mean, 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:17.919 just from a there's a couple of things on that, 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:21.520 like just from a perspective of what the world needs. 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:23.600 It's what the world needs. But also, if you're listening 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:25.720 to this stuff we're saying about the crumbles, about the 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:28.560 possibility of the collapse, if you're someone who who foresees 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:32.080 things getting potentially much more difficult in the future, not 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:34.919 a lot of things more useful in a bad situation 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:38.720 than somebody with medical training. I don't count on that 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:42.520 getting me through the apocalypse. I'm I'm soft. I am 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:44.879 so so. I went camping and I couldn't handle it. 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:46.880 A couple of weeks ago, I went camping. It was awful. 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.880 There was so much dust. It was an awful experience. 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.480 But I just thought, if the apocalypse comes, I will 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:56.520 hopefully get placed in a very nice tent because I'm 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:59.560 a doctor, so I'm counting on that to get me through. 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:05.160 There are so many dumbass boogaloo type quote unquote preppers 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:08.639 who focus on the guns and the gear and the 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:12.720 dried food but thrown in the shirt, throwing knives but 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:14.880 don't even have a n I fac an individual first 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:17.800 aid kit or like a tourniquet, and like they talk 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:20.720 to you, talk to like like I mean, this is 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:23.560 a little off topic, but like talk to combat marines 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:26.680 about like their favorite person. It's always the corman. It's 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:28.560 the guy who knows or the lady who knows how 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:32.000 to like patch a bullet wound and whatnot. Like there's 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:36.000 there's nothing more useful in any situation pretty much that 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:40.000 that is dangerous than somebody who can do medicine. So please, 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:43.360 if you're if you're studying to do medicine, if you're 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:46.119 contemplating becoming an e M T. Or a paramedic or 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:53.000 a nurse or whatever, good God, we need you so badly. Yeah, 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.199 we've talked to a little bit about just in the 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:58.360 medical system in general, and then we can also kind 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:03.000 of discuss more stuff related to how COVID's impacting certain 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:05.920 areas more than others. And like, let's say someone who's 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:08.679 someone who's listening, who's in one of these areas that 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:11.720 it has only vaccinated, you know, not not a lot 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:14.719 of people are going on with masks on, and you know, 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:17.280 schools starting back up, maybe they have kids are going 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:19.119 to their school system. I know in Texas they have 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:22.480 you know, child deaths arising. That sounds very frightening to 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:24.160 be that kind of person who, like you know, would 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:26.640 like like to see that stuff happened in their state, 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:30.000 but it's just not really possible. And I don't know, 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:31.879 with so much of the rest of the world kind 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.320 of slowly taking back restrictions, and I'm sure it feels 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:38.360 very jarring to be in a situation like that and 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.400 kind of like there's really nothing you can do right 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:43.480 besides you right, because you can talk to your family, 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:46.119 talk to your friends, but like overall, it's hard to 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:49.160 hard to make you know, a big impact in a state, 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:52.760 you know, like Texas, Alabama, like Idaho, all the ones 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:56.080 that you that you were mentioning before from a medical 0:20:56.240 --> 0:21:00.280 kind of perspective, is there is there any way people 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:02.680 can kind of start to talk about those things with 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:06.160 their family And because the way we've been trying to 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:08.360 get people take the vaccine, with the marketing we've been doing, 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:12.040 has not been super successful in these demographics. Um, do 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:14.280 you think there's other conversations that can get people to 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:18.840 slowly kind of be more, be more able to you know, 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:23.920 contemplate that. Yeah, that's a that's a tough question. It's 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:27.439 particularly tough if you're someone who is believes in the 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:30.920 importance of vaccines and you'r or the importance of masks 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:32.640 and that sort of thing, and you're in a place 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:37.560 where you're a minority. That is tough. The first thing 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:43.960 I'll say is definitely know that the vaccine helps. You're 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:47.440 in a much better position because of the vaccine. When 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:49.400 I was on the wards and I was looking at 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:55.720 patients that they're almost all unvaccinated, those are the people 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:58.160 that end up in the hospital. You can't still get 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:01.920 into the hospitalize if you have the vaccine, but it's 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:05.200 it's much less likely. And you know, not that these 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:07.960 people don't count, they count just as much, but if 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:10.639 you don't have an underlying problem like a liver transplant 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:13.800 or some immune suppression, then you're less likely to have 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:17.840 a really bad outcome with COVID if you're vaccinated. So 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:20.480 just know that it helps. You still might get it, 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:24.120 it'll suck, um, but for the most part, you're gonna 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:25.800 stay out of the hospital. And that really, I think 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:28.760 is something have a little comfort in. It really does 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:33.480 seem to work. You know. Outside of that, the schools 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:36.920 thing is is a real concern for me, and I'm 0:22:36.920 --> 0:22:39.159 gonna feel a lot better than We're going to be 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:41.440 in a much better position once we are able to 0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:45.240 get kids vaccinated. So there's there's two things. You guys 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:50.199 probably heard that there was, um this this committee that 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:54.400 met to advise the FDA about booster shots. That's one thing. 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:56.639 So booster shots are gonna go out to people who 0:22:56.720 --> 0:23:00.119 need them, uh sixty five and older people at high risk, 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:04.280 people in high risk occupations. They're gonna like frontline workers. 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:07.560 So there's gonna be booster shots coming out. And then 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:11.200 the data is coming out now about five till Yeah, 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:14.480 and that's pretty promising. Um, it looks like they're gonna 0:23:14.520 --> 0:23:16.800 do okay with lower doses, so they use about one 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:19.800 third the dose of the vaccine that the adults get 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:22.960 and it seems to work. We haven't seen much other 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:26.879 than the pre press release from uh Fightser, but you know, 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:29.639 if you really pick at it, it looks promising. So 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:32.920 I am that's something that makes me hopeful. That's something 0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:36.280 I'm definitely clinging to. I think there's no way we're 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:38.960 getting out of this without vaccinating kids. That just has 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:42.679 to happen. Um. I think once that starts rolling out, 0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:44.919 and hopefully it will soon. I mean I don't want 0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:47.120 to put a date on it, but I'm hoping within 0:23:47.119 --> 0:23:50.960 the next couple of months this starts happening. So you know, once, 0:23:51.160 --> 0:23:53.600 once that starts happening, I'm gonna feel a lot more comfortable. 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:56.000 I think people in those situations are gonna feel a 0:23:56.040 --> 0:24:01.719 lot more comfortable too. Yeah, the booster thing is an 0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:06.720 interesting question to me. I mean, they're methical standpoint, particularly, 0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:10.120 you know, I think I think it's not a fair 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:11.719 narrative to say it has to be one or the other, 0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:13.280 and I think people are saying that. I don't think. 0:24:13.320 --> 0:24:15.040 I think we can do it. I think we can 0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:20.159 produce enough vaccine here for people who haven't got it yet, 0:24:20.560 --> 0:24:23.600 and enough for the boosters and start supplying more to 0:24:23.640 --> 0:24:26.440 the world. I mean, we can do more. Our Government 0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:30.200 Sharing Visor Maderna definitely need to do more in that regards. 0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:32.760 They definitely need to do more in terms of production. 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:35.240 They haven't hit their goals in a lot of these places. 0:24:35.280 --> 0:24:37.520 And but it's also not like they haven't done anything yet. 0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:40.560 They give about like a you know, two hundred million 0:24:40.800 --> 0:24:44.160 doses are being donated just this week. I think, so 0:24:44.560 --> 0:24:47.400 they are doing things. That's happening. It's just we need 0:24:47.440 --> 0:24:49.320 more of it. Everything needs we need more of it. 0:24:49.400 --> 0:24:53.200 We need to ramp up production. Yeah, it's weird because, 0:24:53.200 --> 0:24:56.679 like you're right, we could produce enough vaccines for the 0:24:56.680 --> 0:24:59.440 places that don't have them and enough vaccines for boosters 0:24:59.520 --> 0:25:01.760 over here, and all it would take is a couple 0:25:01.800 --> 0:25:05.440 of months of our Afghana stand mad money. But we're 0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:08.880 not going to do that, and so it probably will, 0:25:09.359 --> 0:25:12.480 like I don't know, contribute to an issue effect. There's 0:25:12.600 --> 0:25:14.400 there's a chance that it will contribute to an issue 0:25:14.440 --> 0:25:18.280 of vaccine unavailability. But also it's not like if we 0:25:18.320 --> 0:25:21.440 don't get the boosters, those vaccines will be available because 0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:25.399 we're just not giving them out. Yeah, in the extent 0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:27.040 that we need. So I yeah, I don't know, I 0:25:27.320 --> 0:25:29.439 understand what you're saying. I'll get the booster if they 0:25:29.480 --> 0:25:34.359 decide to give out boosters because I like not having 0:25:34.480 --> 0:25:40.120 not plague damage or getting long COVID. Yeah. Yeah, that 0:25:40.119 --> 0:25:43.159 that seems great. And a lot of the vaccine has 0:25:43.200 --> 0:25:45.680 been see kind of relies. It tracks back to how 0:25:45.680 --> 0:25:48.119 we've been marketing in it, and I've I've been on 0:25:48.160 --> 0:25:51.080 the team that's like, we should stop using Fauchi because 0:25:51.119 --> 0:25:53.320 every time Fauci goes on TV to talk about vaccines, 0:25:53.640 --> 0:25:55.840 more people are going to do like a backfire in fact, 0:25:55.840 --> 0:25:57.639 to be like, no, I'm not gonna get don't trust Fasci. 0:25:58.000 --> 0:26:00.520 So there's a particular like marketing thing that I think 0:26:00.520 --> 0:26:03.720 we've failed on. Like America is very good at marketing 0:26:03.800 --> 0:26:06.680 when we can make money, but when it's not related 0:26:06.880 --> 0:26:10.159 to getting gaining more profit. I think the government is 0:26:10.240 --> 0:26:13.320 very bad at marketing these types of things. Um. And 0:26:13.560 --> 0:26:16.320 on the kind of the marketing side of things, I 0:26:16.359 --> 0:26:18.160 don't know, this is this is kind of old news 0:26:18.200 --> 0:26:21.960 at this point. But the whole smoll and testicals thing, um, 0:26:22.680 --> 0:26:25.200 which we have you have not talked about on this 0:26:25.359 --> 0:26:28.879 show about but I'm sure you have thoughts about how 0:26:29.040 --> 0:26:32.000 this thing has kind of balloons, which is that can 0:26:32.119 --> 0:26:38.560 be like, so, how how the marketing and misinformation relates 0:26:38.600 --> 0:26:44.280 to this cool kind kind of current problem. Yeah. Yeah, 0:26:44.320 --> 0:26:47.000 first of all, that particular story, I mean that's hilarious. 0:26:47.119 --> 0:26:50.440 I mean, like this, I've never I've never seen someone's 0:26:50.560 --> 0:26:56.480 excuse for venereal disease becomes such an international issue. Yeah, 0:26:56.800 --> 0:27:00.560 contribute to the desk probably of hundreds of people. Um, 0:27:01.119 --> 0:27:03.240 you know, it's it's the marketing thing. Is a really 0:27:03.320 --> 0:27:05.760 great question, and and and it's been driving me crazy 0:27:05.800 --> 0:27:07.720 because like part of me at this point just wants 0:27:07.760 --> 0:27:09.680 to be like, get the fucking vaccine. What the fund's 0:27:09.720 --> 0:27:11.679 wrong with you? Get the vaccine part of my language 0:27:11.760 --> 0:27:14.240 and like, um, but then the part of me knows 0:27:14.520 --> 0:27:17.879 that that doesn't work. Like I do believe doctors should 0:27:17.880 --> 0:27:20.879 be able to express their frustration. Um, they need to 0:27:20.920 --> 0:27:22.359 be able to do that. If we can't do that 0:27:22.560 --> 0:27:25.000 right now, I mean, it's game over. But they need 0:27:25.000 --> 0:27:27.280 to at least have that ability where doctors can voice 0:27:27.280 --> 0:27:30.200 their frustration with antivactors but still give them the same 0:27:30.560 --> 0:27:32.520 high level of care that we're always going to give 0:27:32.520 --> 0:27:34.159 them the matter what when they show up in the hospital. 0:27:35.600 --> 0:27:38.800 But if not working to do that, we need other approaches. 0:27:38.920 --> 0:27:40.720 I don't I don't entirely know what they are. There 0:27:40.760 --> 0:27:43.720 are some people they're they're so far out there that 0:27:43.800 --> 0:27:46.359 we're just never going to reach the people, the microchip people. 0:27:46.920 --> 0:27:49.359 There's like a level of deep programming that will need 0:27:49.400 --> 0:27:52.080 to happen to those people that we just it's it's 0:27:52.119 --> 0:27:54.440 too exhausting to do that. You really have to, like, 0:27:55.000 --> 0:27:57.359 if you can't scale that in any meaningful way for 0:27:57.400 --> 0:28:01.000 the country, I think I think, Yeah, I don't know. 0:28:01.080 --> 0:28:03.480 I think calling it the Trump vaccine was the closest 0:28:03.560 --> 0:28:07.080 we got to have possibility, and that fucking I'm interested 0:28:07.119 --> 0:28:09.440 in your thoughts on the fucking bright Bart article and 0:28:09.600 --> 0:28:12.040 if you're not aware, if you're less online than us, 0:28:12.080 --> 0:28:14.720 and God bless you if you are right Bart, the 0:28:15.400 --> 0:28:18.280 which is I don't know. CNN for Fascists came up 0:28:18.280 --> 0:28:20.879 with an article blaming the Democrats for the fact that 0:28:20.960 --> 0:28:23.439 Republicans don't want to take the vaccine and saying it's 0:28:23.480 --> 0:28:27.960 a secret liberal plot to exterminate conservatives because conservatives refused 0:28:28.000 --> 0:28:32.159 to take vaccines because they're fundamentally oppositional, defiant. Um, and 0:28:32.280 --> 0:28:34.560 like it's it's the fault of people who are telling 0:28:34.600 --> 0:28:36.399 them to take the vaccine that they're not taking the 0:28:36.480 --> 0:28:39.880 vaccine because obviously, why would you trust the liberal on anything? 0:28:39.960 --> 0:28:41.640 But also they're trying to kill us. We're going to 0:28:41.720 --> 0:28:44.920 lose the election because we're all dying because we refuse 0:28:45.000 --> 0:28:48.960 to get vaccinated for a preventable disease. Anyway, how do 0:28:49.000 --> 0:28:53.080 you feel about that guy? I don't. I don't love it. 0:28:53.200 --> 0:28:56.000 I don't love it. Um, I'm vaguely familiar with bright Bart. 0:28:56.120 --> 0:28:59.440 I don't know that exact because I have enough pain 0:28:59.520 --> 0:29:05.440 in my life. But um, but you know, I do wonder. 0:29:05.880 --> 0:29:08.080 It's like when they put out articles like this, or 0:29:08.080 --> 0:29:11.480 when Tucker Carlson goes out and he does his thing 0:29:12.120 --> 0:29:15.200 questioning vaccine, just asking questions about vaccines that lead to 0:29:15.400 --> 0:29:19.920 vaccine hesitancy, Like what calculations are they doing? Are they 0:29:19.960 --> 0:29:23.000 doing calcular? Is this just him being callous in not 0:29:23.160 --> 0:29:25.560 giving a fun and just doing it, or is there 0:29:25.680 --> 0:29:29.080 some calculation that him and some sort of right wing 0:29:29.280 --> 0:29:32.080 fink tank are doing where they're like, hey, look this 0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:36.400 sells to our audience. They love it. Let's keep doing it. Yes, 0:29:36.520 --> 0:29:39.720 we are going to lose ex portion of our audience 0:29:39.840 --> 0:29:43.080 because of this, but we still have plenty of audience left. Like, 0:29:43.200 --> 0:29:46.960 I don't, I wonder how that's happening. Like it is hurting. 0:29:47.080 --> 0:29:49.200 It is true, it is hurting them more than than 0:29:49.280 --> 0:29:52.120 other people. It's hurting everyone. Everyone's getting affected by this, 0:29:52.800 --> 0:29:56.160 um but there it's those states that are being affected, 0:29:56.200 --> 0:29:58.680 the people not getting vaccinated who are listening to people 0:29:58.720 --> 0:30:01.480 like Tucker Carlson. I don't. I don't understand what their 0:30:01.600 --> 0:30:05.400 endgame is here, Like this is their market? Why why 0:30:05.520 --> 0:30:07.520 not protected? And that I do not have a good 0:30:07.560 --> 0:30:10.479 answer for. I was hoping one of you guys would. Um. 0:30:11.120 --> 0:30:15.400 You know, it's there's a lot going on there. I 0:30:15.560 --> 0:30:18.040 think a decent chunk of it is the assumption that 0:30:18.360 --> 0:30:21.640 whatever they lose in terms of dead followers won't be 0:30:21.760 --> 0:30:26.400 worth more than continuing the cash bonanza. That is owning 0:30:26.480 --> 0:30:29.480 the lips, right because that's all they that's all that's 0:30:29.520 --> 0:30:32.160 the entirety of the right wing media. It's just owning 0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:36.760 the lips. It's just oppositional, defiant, it's just hating anything 0:30:36.880 --> 0:30:40.840 Democrats do. So you you kind of can't. You're a 0:30:41.000 --> 0:30:45.400 cuck if you tell people to receive basic medical care 0:30:45.560 --> 0:30:48.920 if Democrats are taking that basic medical care right, Um, 0:30:49.120 --> 0:30:51.080 so it's a pride thing for a lot of them. 0:30:51.680 --> 0:30:55.200 To two things I love is when you when you 0:30:55.360 --> 0:30:58.160 use the word cuck or when you do Ben Shapiro's voice, 0:30:58.560 --> 0:31:00.920 Like those are like two of my everythings that you do. 0:31:01.760 --> 0:31:08.240 It's you're saying really well, far beyond anything rational on 0:31:08.360 --> 0:31:15.520 the right. Um, and it's it's difficult to like I 0:31:15.600 --> 0:31:18.680 I I think the calculation is just like I think 0:31:18.720 --> 0:31:20.000 a lot of these guys is the same thing with 0:31:20.080 --> 0:31:22.880 climate change. Like they're smart enough to know that they're 0:31:22.920 --> 0:31:26.600 contributing to an uninhabitable world, but they want to cash 0:31:26.680 --> 0:31:28.400 in first. They want to get as much as they 0:31:28.440 --> 0:31:30.920 can out before it falls apart. And I think that's 0:31:30.920 --> 0:31:32.840 all any of these people care about. Because I think 0:31:33.640 --> 0:31:37.160 there are the true believers. The radio guys are true believers, right, 0:31:37.240 --> 0:31:39.880 the radio guys who keep dying because they don't be vaccinated. 0:31:40.120 --> 0:31:42.000 Those guys did believe that it was some sort of 0:31:42.080 --> 0:31:46.720 weird conspiracy, it was the communist whatever, um. Clearly because 0:31:46.760 --> 0:31:49.800 they did management level, yeah, mid management level. They don't 0:31:49.800 --> 0:31:51.760 know all the stuff that they're being told from above 0:31:51.840 --> 0:31:53.560 and they kind of believe it enough to where they 0:31:53.640 --> 0:31:56.800 kill themselves for the company. I think for Tucker, it's 0:31:57.000 --> 0:32:00.240 more a matter of like, hey, I keep making money 0:32:00.280 --> 0:32:03.400 and I maintain my power if I If I continue 0:32:03.520 --> 0:32:07.040 to hold this line, you you lose power, You get weaker. 0:32:07.320 --> 0:32:09.320 It's like when Trump got booed for telling people to 0:32:09.360 --> 0:32:15.480 take the vaccine. You know, um, yeah, crazy. You can't 0:32:15.680 --> 0:32:18.640 go back with this ship. You just can't, and you 0:32:18.800 --> 0:32:23.760 certainly can't admit to ever having been wrong. Right. Yeah, man, 0:32:24.760 --> 0:32:27.280 it's good ship. What a what a fun note to 0:32:27.480 --> 0:32:30.600 end of the episode on what a good society we've 0:32:30.680 --> 0:32:40.280 built Bravo. M hm ah, well cover it. People can 0:32:40.320 --> 0:32:43.560 find you by looking up the House of Pod. Yes, 0:32:44.120 --> 0:32:48.520 uh was slightly less depressing, but not not super uplifting 0:32:48.560 --> 0:32:51.560 either at this point. Uh. Follow us at the House 0:32:51.640 --> 0:32:54.640 of Pot at Twitter, and you can listen to our 0:32:54.680 --> 0:32:58.240 podcast pretty much anywhere you listen to podcast. We'll talk 0:32:58.240 --> 0:33:01.120 about medical type things, but not so deep into the 0:33:01.160 --> 0:33:04.840 woods that it's not entertaining, I hope. Yeah. Fun the woods, Yeah, 0:33:05.080 --> 0:33:08.640 the woods. We have fun guests ranging from the world's 0:33:08.680 --> 0:33:14.240 best medical experts to you know, you guys. The best 0:33:14.280 --> 0:33:18.880 medical experts. You guys are right up there for medicine, right. 0:33:19.160 --> 0:33:23.520 There's no better medicine than just a big fat pile 0:33:23.560 --> 0:33:25.760 of cocaine. And the good thing about cocaine is it's 0:33:25.760 --> 0:33:28.880 a sterilizing agent. So if you're worried about COVID getting 0:33:28.880 --> 0:33:32.400 in your nasal passages, just rail cocaine before you and 0:33:32.520 --> 0:33:34.720 after you go into the store. It's like getting a 0:33:34.800 --> 0:33:38.200 COVID test, but more fun. Legally, I have to tell 0:33:38.240 --> 0:33:41.880 you that's false. Well, we all have our opinions about 0:33:41.920 --> 0:33:47.800 how cocaine works, and I have my facts. Now, if 0:33:47.840 --> 0:33:50.160 you excuse me, I'm gonna go pick up a single 0:33:50.280 --> 0:34:01.880 item at the grocery store. Hey, leath the listeners tag here. 0:34:02.160 --> 0:34:05.280 Last season on Lethal Lit, you might remember I came 0:34:05.360 --> 0:34:09.080 to Hollow Falls on a mission clearing my aunt Best's 0:34:09.160 --> 0:34:14.080 name and making sure justice was finally served. But I 0:34:14.200 --> 0:34:17.240 hadn't counted on a rash of new murders tearing apart 0:34:17.320 --> 0:34:21.480 the town. My mission put myself and my friends in danger. 0:34:22.239 --> 0:34:25.879 Though it wasn't all bad, I'm going to be real 0:34:25.960 --> 0:34:30.359 ify Tig, I like you, but now all signs point 0:34:30.440 --> 0:34:33.520 to a new serial killer in Hollow Falls. If this 0:34:33.760 --> 0:34:37.080 game is just starting. You better believe I'm gonna win. 0:34:38.480 --> 0:34:43.319 I'm Tig Torres and this is Lethal Lit. Catch up 0:34:43.360 --> 0:34:46.000 on season one of the hit murder mystery podcast Lethal Lit, 0:34:46.120 --> 0:34:48.880 a tag Torre's mystery out now, and then tune in 0:34:49.000 --> 0:34:51.720 for all new thrills in season two, dropping weekly starting 0:34:51.760 --> 0:34:55.080 February nine. Subscribe now to never miss an episode. Listen 0:34:55.160 --> 0:34:56.919 to Leave the Lit on the I Heart Radio app, 0:34:57.040 --> 0:35:01.399 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm 0:35:01.480 --> 0:35:04.080 Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick, and where the hosts 0:35:04.160 --> 0:35:06.919 of the science podcast Stuff to Blow Your Mind, where 0:35:06.960 --> 0:35:09.160 every week we get to explore some of the weirdest 0:35:09.280 --> 0:35:13.440 questions in the universe, like if sci fi teleportation was possible, 0:35:13.640 --> 0:35:16.440 how would it square with the multitudes of organisms that 0:35:16.560 --> 0:35:19.680 inhabit our human bodies? Can we find evidence of emotions 0:35:19.760 --> 0:35:23.520 in animals like bees, ants, and crayfish? How would an 0:35:23.600 --> 0:35:28.359 interplanetary civilization function just free will exist? Stuff to Blow 0:35:28.440 --> 0:35:34.040 Your Mind examines neurological quandaries, cosmic mysteries, evolutionary marvels, and 0:35:34.120 --> 0:35:37.000 the wonders of techno history. Basically, this show is the 0:35:37.080 --> 0:35:40.680 altar where we worship the weirdness of reality. If anybody 0:35:40.760 --> 0:35:44.040 ever told you you ask the weirdest questions, it is 0:35:44.120 --> 0:35:46.520 time to come join us in the place where you belong. 0:35:46.920 --> 0:35:50.240 The Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast New episodes publish 0:35:50.280 --> 0:35:54.120 every Tuesday and Thursday, with bonus episodes on Saturdays. Listen 0:35:54.160 --> 0:35:55.759 to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the I Heart 0:35:55.840 --> 0:35:59.279 Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:36:00.840 --> 0:36:03.760 Look for your children's eyes to see the true magic 0:36:03.920 --> 0:36:07.279 of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You 0:36:07.440 --> 0:36:10.439 look and see a tree, They see the wrinkled face 0:36:10.480 --> 0:36:13.839 of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They 0:36:13.880 --> 0:36:17.000 see treasure and pebbles, They see a windy path that 0:36:17.160 --> 0:36:21.400 could lead to adventure, and they see you. They're fearless. Guide. 0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:24.880 Is this fascinating world? Find a forest near you and 0:36:25.000 --> 0:36:28.000 start exploring and discover the forest dot Org brought to 0:36:28.000 --> 0:36:30.560 you by the United States Forest Service and the ad Council. 0:36:35.800 --> 0:36:38.440 Welcome It could Happen Here pod, a podcast that is 0:36:39.000 --> 0:36:41.840 today about the fact that ten years ago it did happen. 0:36:42.760 --> 0:36:45.320 And when when I when I say it did happen, 0:36:45.400 --> 0:36:48.320 I mean we occupied an extremely large number of places, 0:36:48.400 --> 0:36:51.600 and we did so in interesting and incredibly bizarre ways. 0:36:51.760 --> 0:36:53.680 And with with with me to talk about this is 0:36:53.719 --> 0:36:57.600 Garrison as always. I like that you used the Twitter 0:36:57.760 --> 0:37:00.839 handle for our podcast, not the actual name, but that's fine. 0:37:03.400 --> 0:37:06.520 Where can it where can it go for it? But 0:37:06.640 --> 0:37:10.200 helloon with me? I have I have my special guest, 0:37:11.120 --> 0:37:14.600 Vicky Ostrowil, who is an agitator, who is a writer, 0:37:14.840 --> 0:37:19.520 who has done many many things, probably most famously writing 0:37:19.640 --> 0:37:25.040 the book in Defense of Looting UM from Bold Press, 0:37:25.360 --> 0:37:28.839 Bold type Press, bult Type Press. Yeah, very good book. 0:37:29.080 --> 0:37:33.000 People got very bad, people got very angry. Yeah, thank you. 0:37:33.080 --> 0:37:35.040 It's it's really I'm really excited to be here to 0:37:35.160 --> 0:37:38.680 to talk about the the anniversary of Occupy from basically 0:37:38.760 --> 0:37:40.879 you know when I when I all got this whole 0:37:40.920 --> 0:37:43.680 train rolling, so yeah, and the the other the other 0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:46.120 thing um that that is probably relevant here is that 0:37:46.400 --> 0:37:49.440 Vicky was one of the first people at Occupy and 0:37:49.600 --> 0:37:52.480 and little correct me if I'm wrong about this. I 0:37:52.680 --> 0:37:54.800 found an oblique reference to this in one of the 0:37:54.840 --> 0:38:01.160 things I read. You facilitated the first meeting. Yes, the yeah, 0:38:01.239 --> 0:38:03.000 I got this on the record now, yeah, I I 0:38:03.280 --> 0:38:07.239 uh yeah, during UM during the general New York City 0:38:07.280 --> 0:38:10.360 General Assembly, it was called in August. Um, there was 0:38:10.560 --> 0:38:14.000 you know, uh, ad Busters hopefully called for a general assembly, 0:38:14.200 --> 0:38:16.600 and you know, a bunch of us sort of went 0:38:16.719 --> 0:38:19.600 down there and there was a tanky party there um 0:38:19.920 --> 0:38:23.320 doing a general assembly, which was just them on speakers, 0:38:23.840 --> 0:38:26.759 UM doing their regular ranting. Um hadn't changed much in 0:38:26.800 --> 0:38:30.239 ten years, um and uh and we um. Yeah, so 0:38:30.440 --> 0:38:32.560 a bunch of us just went and sat down, uh, 0:38:32.920 --> 0:38:34.719 you know, to the side of it, and started an 0:38:34.719 --> 0:38:38.680 actual general assembly. And by by by happenstance, I I 0:38:38.840 --> 0:38:41.120 associated that meeting and it was the first and last 0:38:41.400 --> 0:38:46.680 Occupy meeting AMATE facilitating. Yeah. Okay, so I want to 0:38:46.960 --> 0:38:51.319 rule back a little bit too, just before the start 0:38:51.400 --> 0:38:55.400 of occupied because yeah, the more be thinking about this, 0:38:55.480 --> 0:38:57.640 the more have just realized that two thousand eleven was 0:38:57.680 --> 0:39:01.120 just a profoundly weird time in a lot of ways. 0:39:01.120 --> 0:39:04.680 I think people have forgotten, like the entire American security 0:39:04.719 --> 0:39:07.120 state is at this point being terrorized. When you joint 0:39:07.160 --> 0:39:10.120 anonymous lull sick hacking campaign called anti Sick, the symbol 0:39:10.280 --> 0:39:12.680 of which he is a guy in a guy fox 0:39:12.760 --> 0:39:15.400 mask wearing a monocle and a top hat, and this 0:39:15.560 --> 0:39:17.960 was just like normal, Yes, this was the thing that 0:39:18.440 --> 0:39:20.120 I was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, it's it's the it's 0:39:20.160 --> 0:39:23.160 it's the it's the anti sick top hat, full faced 0:39:23.200 --> 0:39:25.600 guy in a monocle. Fun fact about that, just before 0:39:25.640 --> 0:39:28.200 we forget David Gramer Rest in Peace, who was there 0:39:29.000 --> 0:39:32.200 in the early days organizing claimed and um that he 0:39:32.320 --> 0:39:34.360 had he had heard and talked to the some of 0:39:34.440 --> 0:39:36.920 the like overheard the police talking about the reason they 0:39:36.960 --> 0:39:39.600 didn't sweep the occupying encampment the first day when we 0:39:39.640 --> 0:39:41.839 were pretty weak, frankly, or the first week, was because 0:39:41.840 --> 0:39:43.880 there were a bunch of guy fox masks and they 0:39:43.920 --> 0:39:46.680 were scared. They were scared they were going to get hacked. 0:39:46.920 --> 0:39:49.920 If they were scared, they were gonna hack them and 0:39:49.960 --> 0:39:54.279 steal there. Yeah. So so it was a weird time indeed. Yeah. Yeah. 0:39:54.280 --> 0:39:57.239 And I think the the other thing that's, you know, 0:39:57.600 --> 0:39:59.279 I think important about this time period if we were 0:39:59.280 --> 0:40:01.200 looking back at what occupied was is that this so 0:40:01.280 --> 0:40:04.800 this is this is three years after the the financial collapse, 0:40:05.040 --> 0:40:08.320 and you know, so I think this is you know, 0:40:08.400 --> 0:40:11.160 in the room to two eleven, there's been a few 0:40:11.840 --> 0:40:13.640 there's been a few protests, there's been there was a 0:40:13.680 --> 0:40:15.239 big thing in Grease in two thousand eight that was 0:40:15.400 --> 0:40:18.560 kind of related, kind of unrelated. But I think in 0:40:18.680 --> 0:40:20.600 my sense of you know, I was like, I don't know, 0:40:20.680 --> 0:40:22.680 I was like thirteen. I was like I was like 0:40:22.719 --> 0:40:24.719 an actual baby child. But my sense of it was 0:40:24.880 --> 0:40:26.360 kind of just like like there's that there's this like 0:40:27.520 --> 0:40:31.080 sense that everyone just kind of waiting for something to happen. Yeah, 0:40:31.320 --> 0:40:33.399 and it's like hadn't and it's just like kept going 0:40:33.520 --> 0:40:36.719 and kept going and kept going. And then you know, 0:40:36.800 --> 0:40:40.800 and then and then Genesia starts and suddenly there's you 0:40:40.840 --> 0:40:43.520 know there there there's Protestant Tenessia, there's pertest Egypt. There's 0:40:43.800 --> 0:40:46.759 like people fighting tanks in the street in Bahrain, and 0:40:48.040 --> 0:40:49.640 you know, and this this is you know that this 0:40:49.760 --> 0:40:52.719 this becomes down as the spring and it starts to 0:40:52.880 --> 0:40:55.960 spread to a lot of places. And VICKI I want 0:40:55.960 --> 0:40:57.440 to talk. I want to ask you about this because 0:40:58.360 --> 0:41:01.319 you you were in Spain when it started started. There 0:41:01.440 --> 0:41:04.040 we'll talk about what what what was going on there? 0:41:04.239 --> 0:41:07.560 And yeah, so I wasn't there when it started. Um, 0:41:07.840 --> 0:41:11.440 but but but yes, um, basically you know, and then 0:41:11.560 --> 0:41:12.920 and I want to shout out like there were there 0:41:12.960 --> 0:41:15.000 were a bunch of like movements like in two thousand eight, 0:41:15.120 --> 0:41:16.960 right after the crash, there were a bunch of protests, 0:41:17.000 --> 0:41:18.960 like outside Wall Street. They were very small, but they 0:41:19.000 --> 0:41:20.920 were like sort of the like produced some images. And 0:41:20.960 --> 0:41:23.919 then there was you know, in two thousand uh nine, 0:41:23.960 --> 0:41:27.160 there's the Oscar Grant rebellion in Oakland, and you have 0:41:27.239 --> 0:41:30.120 the Madison occupation earlier in two thousand eleven, um, where 0:41:30.160 --> 0:41:34.759 they were the workers unions took over the state House. Yeah, 0:41:35.200 --> 0:41:37.799 everyone does. It was actually really important at the time. Um. 0:41:38.000 --> 0:41:40.640 But yeah, so so you know, so I think I'm 0:41:40.640 --> 0:41:42.560 glad you brought up Greece because I think actually Greece 0:41:42.680 --> 0:41:44.759 really that that sort of anarchist rebellion in two thousand 0:41:44.840 --> 0:41:47.480 eight thou nine really kicked off the cycle in a 0:41:47.560 --> 0:41:50.120 certain way, but also didn't quite It wasn't quite the 0:41:50.160 --> 0:41:51.800 first domino, you know. It was sort of more of 0:41:51.840 --> 0:41:54.960 a like forecast. So yeah, so Arab spring, uh you know, 0:41:55.360 --> 0:41:59.160 is huge. It's this huge, huge event, and the US 0:41:59.239 --> 0:42:01.840 media is thing it because obviously like these sort of 0:42:01.920 --> 0:42:05.719 old you know, quote unquote Marxist dictators are falling, um, 0:42:05.800 --> 0:42:08.200 and so of course the US is like all about it, um, 0:42:08.239 --> 0:42:11.160 which of course later later on the return of the 0:42:11.200 --> 0:42:15.160 tankies will use to um to confuse everyone on the 0:42:15.320 --> 0:42:18.879 US left and destroy all solidarity with Syria anyway. Um, 0:42:19.560 --> 0:42:22.080 but that's neither hearner there. Um. So then then in 0:42:22.520 --> 0:42:25.280 then in that summer, um, you get this this wave 0:42:25.480 --> 0:42:28.200 of early summer like May in June. In fact, the 0:42:28.239 --> 0:42:30.800 fifteenth of May was when the movement started in Spain 0:42:30.920 --> 0:42:32.759 and then it starts student again in Greece. And it 0:42:32.880 --> 0:42:34.760 was similar to occupy and that there was these people 0:42:34.960 --> 0:42:38.080 coming together in these sort of encampments in the center 0:42:38.120 --> 0:42:41.000 of the city. Um. I don't know if people remember 0:42:41.320 --> 0:42:43.920 um or or know this history economically, but Spain and 0:42:44.000 --> 0:42:46.320 Greece had recently been sort of going through these like 0:42:46.480 --> 0:42:49.279 big big booms economic booms just for about five or 0:42:49.320 --> 0:42:51.800 six years that turned out to be real estate bubbles 0:42:51.960 --> 0:42:54.359 funded by their entry into the EU, and two thousand 0:42:54.400 --> 0:42:56.040 and Age just smashed that and they were just like 0:42:56.320 --> 0:43:00.959 incredibly impoverished. I mean, like Spain was facing unemployment, Greece 0:43:01.040 --> 0:43:04.440 was like similar. Spain has recovered more than Greece has 0:43:04.640 --> 0:43:07.239 in the intervening years, but it's still bad. Um So 0:43:08.000 --> 0:43:09.400 so yeah, so you had all these it was it 0:43:09.480 --> 0:43:12.719 was you know, predominantly young folks who were um, you 0:43:12.800 --> 0:43:14.520 know had been pushed out of the economy, who had 0:43:14.520 --> 0:43:16.239 been pushed out of their homes, whose families had loft 0:43:16.280 --> 0:43:19.279 their homes. Um gathering together and it was all over 0:43:19.400 --> 0:43:22.360 both countries and it was huge. Um. I happened to 0:43:22.480 --> 0:43:24.760 just be in Barcelona. I had been on a planned 0:43:24.840 --> 0:43:27.560 vacation with some friends. Um you know that we had 0:43:27.600 --> 0:43:29.680 we had planned like sort of six months earlier when 0:43:29.760 --> 0:43:31.440 it all popped off. And I had also just started 0:43:31.520 --> 0:43:35.279 my writing. Um, I would say career, but that's very generous. UM. 0:43:35.440 --> 0:43:39.279 I had started technically being paid for writing things. And 0:43:39.920 --> 0:43:41.480 they were like, oh, right about it, Like, let's like 0:43:41.560 --> 0:43:44.040 cover it while you're there. And because no one in 0:43:44.120 --> 0:43:46.239 the US was talking about what was going on in 0:43:46.360 --> 0:43:49.719 Spain when my article popped up, like and this is 0:43:49.800 --> 0:43:51.480 like this is really strange. But it was like the 0:43:51.520 --> 0:43:54.080 early days of Twitter as well, um two eleven, Like 0:43:54.080 --> 0:43:56.800 I guess Twitter started two nine or something, and so like, 0:43:57.360 --> 0:44:00.800 so the the one of the accounts, the camp tweets 0:44:00.800 --> 0:44:02.520 out my article. So I went there the next day. 0:44:02.520 --> 0:44:04.160 I was like, I wrote that article and then I 0:44:04.239 --> 0:44:05.799 was like embedded for a week, and I was there 0:44:05.880 --> 0:44:08.359 for like kind of the height of the popular power 0:44:08.400 --> 0:44:10.120 of the movement in Barcelona only for a week, but 0:44:10.200 --> 0:44:12.000 I was there on the day when there was a 0:44:12.000 --> 0:44:14.640 two and a half million person march through Barcelona. UM 0:44:14.719 --> 0:44:17.319 just like still probably the biggest march I've ever been 0:44:17.440 --> 0:44:19.200 part of it and probably who ever will be UM 0:44:19.360 --> 0:44:22.040 was like la And so you know, so that goes 0:44:22.120 --> 0:44:24.880 on for for a few months in Greece and Barcelona, 0:44:24.960 --> 0:44:27.600 it sort of hits similar limits that occupy would eventually hit, 0:44:27.680 --> 0:44:29.880 which is that like you know that that if you 0:44:29.960 --> 0:44:33.040 can take the space away from people, that's that's the 0:44:33.160 --> 0:44:35.680 common ground, and like you can't really have the movement 0:44:35.719 --> 0:44:39.000 without the encampment. And also all the way in which 0:44:39.040 --> 0:44:42.520 the camps sort of force a kind of internal naval 0:44:42.600 --> 0:44:45.640 gazing and people like get really obsessed with maintaining the 0:44:45.719 --> 0:44:48.360 camp rather than the struggle with the city at large. 0:44:48.719 --> 0:44:50.480 All of those, all of those contradictions sort of like 0:44:50.560 --> 0:44:52.880 came up in Spain and Greece as well. But at 0:44:52.920 --> 0:44:54.799 the time, you know, I was there for the height 0:44:54.840 --> 0:44:56.040 of it. I come back to New York, I'm like, 0:44:56.120 --> 0:44:57.560 this is going to happen in the US, like it 0:44:57.680 --> 0:45:00.200 has to. UM. I think a lot of folks who 0:45:00.760 --> 0:45:02.960 had been watching felt that way as well. Um. I 0:45:03.000 --> 0:45:05.080 actually took part in this thing called bloomberg Ville, which 0:45:05.120 --> 0:45:08.920 was like, yeah, fifty people on a sidewalk, um was 0:45:09.239 --> 0:45:12.320 from Michael Bloomberg, right, Um, fifty people on a sidewalk. 0:45:12.480 --> 0:45:14.640 Fifty people was general. I was like, when we were 0:45:14.680 --> 0:45:17.120 doing really well and mostly fifteen of us, It's like 0:45:17.160 --> 0:45:20.000 fifteen of us on a flidewalk um in the financial district, 0:45:20.040 --> 0:45:23.040 like getting yelled at by cops, um, you know, sleeping 0:45:23.080 --> 0:45:26.120 on cardboard, you know, occupy style, but without any attention 0:45:26.280 --> 0:45:30.520 or solidarity. Um. And but because I had been in 0:45:30.600 --> 0:45:32.480 Barcelona and I still have these carbrads in Barcelona, I 0:45:32.560 --> 0:45:33.960 was like, oh my god, we're doing it in New York. 0:45:34.320 --> 0:45:36.360 So we had this thing where bloomberg Ville, which is 0:45:36.400 --> 0:45:38.880 like twenty people like got to talk to a general 0:45:38.920 --> 0:45:41.400 assembly in Barcelona at the height of its power, like 0:45:41.600 --> 0:45:44.239 on a like internet link, like a really early internet link, 0:45:44.320 --> 0:45:48.000 you know. Um, and you know so so so. So 0:45:48.120 --> 0:45:50.120 there was all this energy that was happening. And then 0:45:50.200 --> 0:45:53.040 I think, really crucially, the London riots pop off, and 0:45:53.120 --> 0:45:56.520 that doesn't get talked about very much anymore, partially because 0:45:56.560 --> 0:45:59.759 the UK left really stabbed. Here's the back during that 0:46:00.000 --> 0:46:02.640 and and have and and repressed the memory of it 0:46:02.800 --> 0:46:05.880 largely UM, and have suffered ever since, in my opinion, 0:46:05.920 --> 0:46:09.120 strategically UM. But you know that was for us in 0:46:09.160 --> 0:46:12.399 the US, that was huge. It was huge watching UM, 0:46:12.520 --> 0:46:15.279 watching those riots unfold. Like you know, again, this was 0:46:15.360 --> 0:46:17.960 like early live streaming, so like we were like watching 0:46:18.080 --> 0:46:19.800 live feeds of the riots, you know, which is like 0:46:19.800 --> 0:46:21.200 it was not a thing that you could really do 0:46:21.280 --> 0:46:23.400 without a TV before. There was just like there was 0:46:23.400 --> 0:46:25.960 a lot of stuff going on that felt exciting and 0:46:26.719 --> 0:46:29.920 and it was and really important and inevitable that it 0:46:29.960 --> 0:46:31.759 would come to the US because things were so messed 0:46:31.840 --> 0:46:34.080 up over here. I think we should talk about what 0:46:34.200 --> 0:46:36.600 a general assembly actually is because I think a lot 0:46:36.600 --> 0:46:40.040 of people aren't. We're going to have like never actually 0:46:40.160 --> 0:46:42.399 ran into what exactly is going on, or have sort 0:46:42.440 --> 0:46:44.799 of forgotten in the last ten years after this sort 0:46:44.800 --> 0:46:48.520 of fallen out of favor. Sure, yeah, I mean it's UM. 0:46:48.640 --> 0:46:50.960 It was never my favorite either, honestly, but it's a 0:46:51.239 --> 0:46:54.640 it's a meeting style UM designed UM. It actually does 0:46:54.719 --> 0:46:59.359 largely actually come from from European anarchist traditions, UM from 0:46:59.520 --> 0:47:02.359 from Spain in Greece, but as as many of us know, UM, 0:47:02.480 --> 0:47:05.239 A lot of those traditions go back further UM and 0:47:05.360 --> 0:47:08.239 have crossed crossed the water general somebody's actually there's a 0:47:08.280 --> 0:47:11.120 long history of them in indigenous communities in Turtle Island, 0:47:11.160 --> 0:47:14.120 for example. So it's an old meeting style UM, in 0:47:14.239 --> 0:47:17.799 which um, the Quakers also the Quakers UM famously also 0:47:18.040 --> 0:47:20.719 sort of uh sort of co opted it from from 0:47:20.880 --> 0:47:24.000 indigenous folks out here on the East coast. UM. But UM, 0:47:24.320 --> 0:47:26.360 it's a meeting style in which, uh, you know, with 0:47:26.440 --> 0:47:28.759 the exception of a facilitator which is occasionally but not 0:47:28.880 --> 0:47:33.480 always present, UM, everyone is able to speak UM together. 0:47:33.920 --> 0:47:36.960 There is something, there's an agenda sometimes, but it's basically 0:47:37.000 --> 0:47:41.160 a meeting designed where everyone present in the meeting has 0:47:41.280 --> 0:47:45.360 like an equal voice, And it's not really designed generally 0:47:45.520 --> 0:47:49.760 for UM decision making specifically or in with like really 0:47:49.800 --> 0:47:52.960 specific goals in mind. Often, although there will be sort 0:47:52.960 --> 0:47:55.799 of like things that are trying to get settled UM. 0:47:55.960 --> 0:48:00.160 But it's it's it's it's designed to allow, you know, 0:48:00.280 --> 0:48:02.800 a very very multi vocal approach and for everyone to 0:48:02.840 --> 0:48:05.400 sort of put in their their thoughts and their ideas 0:48:05.880 --> 0:48:08.920 UM and often is connected although not necessarily, but is 0:48:09.000 --> 0:48:13.520 often connected to consensus UM operation where UM things can't 0:48:13.520 --> 0:48:16.399 get sort of decided on unless everyone sort of agrees UM. 0:48:16.600 --> 0:48:20.800 And in occupy UM, that was the general assembly was 0:48:21.080 --> 0:48:23.800 sort of UM was a bit controversial because it was 0:48:23.880 --> 0:48:27.400 just whoever showed up obviously participates in it. So, you know, 0:48:27.600 --> 0:48:30.440 unlike unlike you know, an organizational meeting where you you know, 0:48:30.600 --> 0:48:32.400 everyone knows each other and you have to have a 0:48:32.840 --> 0:48:35.160 you know, you have to be there with an invite 0:48:35.239 --> 0:48:38.960 or whatever. UM, you know, whatever cranky wing nut UM 0:48:39.080 --> 0:48:42.880 wanted to show up could UM. And that had pluses 0:48:42.920 --> 0:48:45.480 and minuses. It was charming sometimes, but it was also 0:48:45.560 --> 0:48:48.160 very frustrating UM. And in in New York where I 0:48:48.360 --> 0:48:52.000 was UM, it was made almost impossible to function by 0:48:52.080 --> 0:48:55.239 this thing called the people's mike UM oh, which I 0:48:55.320 --> 0:48:58.320 think still happens sometimes people even mike check UM and 0:48:58.560 --> 0:49:00.640 and then everyone repeats what was said. But that means 0:49:00.680 --> 0:49:03.280 that it takes four times as long to talk as normal. 0:49:03.640 --> 0:49:05.080 So when you have a wing nut, you know, like 0:49:05.160 --> 0:49:07.600 advocating for wrong Paul, and then you've got thirty people 0:49:07.680 --> 0:49:11.560 echoing him every four yards, it makes it makes discussion 0:49:11.680 --> 0:49:15.279 completely impossible. And a microhistory of the people's mic. The 0:49:15.360 --> 0:49:18.239 reason that happened was because in the first week in 0:49:18.320 --> 0:49:21.440 Zukkati Park Um, whenever we got on a megaphone, police 0:49:21.480 --> 0:49:23.759 would come and arrest whoever was on the megaphone because 0:49:23.800 --> 0:49:25.960 you weren't allowed to use amplified sound in New York. 0:49:26.360 --> 0:49:28.600 And one organizer was like, oh no, no, we can 0:49:28.680 --> 0:49:31.279 like use the people's mic. We can repeat back to 0:49:31.360 --> 0:49:32.839 each other. And this is when we they're still mostly 0:49:32.880 --> 0:49:34.520 like thirty to forty people in the park at any 0:49:34.560 --> 0:49:37.359 one time. It's very small. That didn't feel so bad, 0:49:37.840 --> 0:49:40.640 but then when the movement really got big, the people's 0:49:40.640 --> 0:49:45.759 mike became completely unwieldy and also was a response to 0:49:46.080 --> 0:49:49.600 a was a cowardly response to police repression frankly UM, 0:49:49.680 --> 0:49:52.239 and was a way of So the peopil's mic is is, 0:49:52.400 --> 0:49:55.520 in my opinion, reactionary form anyway, that is hit. So 0:49:55.880 --> 0:49:57.560 it's been ten years. I haven't been able to complain 0:49:57.560 --> 0:49:59.160 about this in like eight years, Thank you so much, 0:49:59.440 --> 0:50:01.920 UM anyway, So yeah, the general Assembly is just a 0:50:01.960 --> 0:50:05.520 meeting form um that often often associated with anarchy, anarchist 0:50:05.560 --> 0:50:08.520 practice or radical democratic practice um in which sort of 0:50:08.600 --> 0:50:11.160 consensus is aimed for by allowing everyone to speak there 0:50:11.239 --> 0:50:13.680 much I would say. Yeah. And so this, this, I 0:50:13.719 --> 0:50:16.280 think gets us back to where we open this episode, 0:50:16.320 --> 0:50:22.120 which is Adbusters calls an event with literally no plans 0:50:22.239 --> 0:50:25.160 to like do anything. They're just like, yeah, everyone, we're 0:50:25.160 --> 0:50:28.960 occupied in Wall Street. And then yeah, and you know, 0:50:29.040 --> 0:50:31.479 as it's talking about the beginning of it, you guys 0:50:31.560 --> 0:50:39.239 basically hijack well sort of, I mean, so Adbusters. Adbusters 0:50:39.320 --> 0:50:41.680 doesn't show up, like you said, there's I've never met 0:50:41.719 --> 0:50:44.719 an Adbusters person, um. And it was funny, like we 0:50:44.719 --> 0:50:46.399 would do jokes about it. But I think it's also 0:50:46.719 --> 0:50:48.919 thinking about this in preparation for this interview. It's also 0:50:48.960 --> 0:50:52.279 interesting because Adbusters and their culture jamming is kind of 0:50:52.400 --> 0:50:54.600 like one of the results of the sort of altar 0:50:54.600 --> 0:50:57.720 globalization movement of the like late nineties and early two thousands, 0:50:57.760 --> 0:51:00.200 the summit hopping stuff um, the enarchy movement of like 0:51:00.320 --> 0:51:03.319 one generation ahead of occupy UM. So I think it's 0:51:03.320 --> 0:51:05.920 sort of appropriate that Adbusters sort of, like you know, 0:51:06.920 --> 0:51:08.960 was present in this legacy in a certain way, and 0:51:09.040 --> 0:51:10.719 a lot of those organizers were as well. But yes, 0:51:11.000 --> 0:51:14.280 I'm sorry, I did I just jump in for you. No, no, no, okay, 0:51:14.600 --> 0:51:18.680 um the yeah, so so so so, a bunch of 0:51:18.719 --> 0:51:21.600 people I don't actually know who calls for an August second, 0:51:21.920 --> 0:51:24.320 you know, general assembly to talk about the call for 0:51:24.400 --> 0:51:28.160 September seventeenth to occupy Wall Street. UM. And at that 0:51:28.480 --> 0:51:30.640 at that point, that's when the thing I was describing 0:51:30.640 --> 0:51:34.239 earlier like happens where where UM, you know, we a 0:51:34.320 --> 0:51:36.360 bunch of folks and and I really want to underline 0:51:36.400 --> 0:51:38.040 that most of them were people who had been in 0:51:38.120 --> 0:51:41.279 Spain or Greece. UM. David Graber was also. There was 0:51:41.280 --> 0:51:42.680 like a lot of old heads. There was like a 0:51:43.080 --> 0:51:45.200 there was a comrade from Japan. UM. It was a 0:51:45.280 --> 0:51:48.560 very international crew who had like had experience in these 0:51:48.600 --> 0:51:51.759 movements over the summer. UM came and had this General 0:51:51.840 --> 0:51:54.239 Assembly and sort of ran it that way and broke out. 0:51:54.280 --> 0:51:56.560 We had we broke off working groups and then there 0:51:56.640 --> 0:51:59.160 was meetings sort of once a week and then working 0:51:59.200 --> 0:52:02.280 group meets within that UM and general assemblies from August 0:52:02.280 --> 0:52:04.880 second ttil September seventeenth, at which point, UM, you know, 0:52:05.000 --> 0:52:07.360 occupy the day, the day that Adbusters had caused for 0:52:07.680 --> 0:52:10.400 actually happened. So my my impression of this, and I 0:52:10.640 --> 0:52:13.800 was I was very small. I had very limited idea 0:52:13.840 --> 0:52:16.040 of what was going on. The way I remember in 0:52:16.080 --> 0:52:21.239 the media is that like the there, the media was 0:52:22.000 --> 0:52:24.239 weirdly interested in it in a way that I've never 0:52:24.480 --> 0:52:28.280 seen them. I've never seen them cover another social movement 0:52:28.320 --> 0:52:31.520 that wasn't like literally burning their offices down, And it 0:52:31.640 --> 0:52:33.040 was like it was like in the beginning, it was 0:52:33.680 --> 0:52:35.239 I mean, you know, obviously the right wing media is 0:52:35.440 --> 0:52:40.520 losing their minds, but they were kind of kind of 0:52:40.600 --> 0:52:43.480 supportive of it, and I think, I don't know, I 0:52:43.920 --> 0:52:45.600 you thinking about this. One of the things that that 0:52:45.719 --> 0:52:48.600 happens in both in both Greece and in Spain is 0:52:48.719 --> 0:52:52.760 that the product movement of the squares is these electoral movements, 0:52:52.760 --> 0:52:56.160 and these electoral movements just fail like catastrophically, like Starsia 0:52:56.239 --> 0:52:58.759 takes power, like like the they like you know, they 0:52:58.840 --> 0:53:01.239 they have they have they have a like their their 0:53:01.320 --> 0:53:04.120 finance minister is a left communist. He's like he is 0:53:04.200 --> 0:53:06.600 the most fire left person ever like to hold office 0:53:06.640 --> 0:53:09.560 since like the Spanish anarchists in ninety nineteen thirty six, 0:53:10.200 --> 0:53:12.920 and they employed austerity. Anyways, in Spain, you get put 0:53:12.960 --> 0:53:14.960 demos and it's like wow, okay, you have you know, 0:53:14.960 --> 0:53:16.640 they had this thing called the electoral war machine. They're 0:53:16.760 --> 0:53:18.400 they're gonna take over the Spantish but because something they 0:53:18.520 --> 0:53:20.239 just it collapsed. It just doesn't work. They've they've never 0:53:20.880 --> 0:53:23.160 like they've they've they've they've never taken power. They've never 0:53:24.160 --> 0:53:27.120 really got anywhere. They they successfully evicted a bunch of 0:53:27.120 --> 0:53:32.080 squats in Catalonia. But yeah, but and I think this 0:53:32.200 --> 0:53:33.680 is my impression if it was that I think the 0:53:33.800 --> 0:53:35.480 US media thought they could they could do this to 0:53:35.520 --> 0:53:40.000 occupy and and I think they kind of it's weird 0:53:40.040 --> 0:53:42.279 because looking so you know, like I I come in 0:53:42.320 --> 0:53:46.280 and like to to this kind of stuff around on seventeen, 0:53:46.280 --> 0:53:48.960 and I think it it's like it weirdly worked. But 0:53:49.040 --> 0:53:50.640 it worked because they were able to group the anti 0:53:50.719 --> 0:53:54.400 occupy people. So it's like, yeah, and so they did 0:53:54.560 --> 0:53:58.040 finally get their like cadre of like pseudo left organizers 0:53:58.040 --> 0:53:59.640 so they could used to build a democratic party. It's 0:53:59.680 --> 0:54:02.480 just it is like Jocobin and then I'll think the whole, 0:54:02.520 --> 0:54:06.560 the whole sort of anti occupy group. Yeah, so those 0:54:06.600 --> 0:54:10.920 folks were actually UM active during Occupy UM, critiquing the 0:54:11.200 --> 0:54:14.400 people who now most loudly UM claim the legacy of 0:54:14.440 --> 0:54:16.600 Occupy UM. You know, as you said, Jacobin, a lot 0:54:16.640 --> 0:54:20.040 of those sort of social democratic groups um. At the time, UM, 0:54:20.160 --> 0:54:22.680 and those of us who were there, remember they hated Occupy. 0:54:22.840 --> 0:54:25.240 They would show up, but they like would critique it constantly. 0:54:25.320 --> 0:54:27.520 They would write all these articles about how it was terrible, 0:54:27.920 --> 0:54:30.480 there were no demands, it was too disorganized. And then 0:54:30.520 --> 0:54:33.279 I think, you know, when Black Revolt got put on 0:54:33.320 --> 0:54:35.040 the table, they were like, bring back Occupy. We liked 0:54:35.040 --> 0:54:38.319 that better. But but I think to be as harsh 0:54:38.320 --> 0:54:41.759 as possible, but um, I think like, um, you know, yes, 0:54:41.960 --> 0:54:44.120 there was there was a lot of media coverage. It 0:54:44.160 --> 0:54:47.160 didn't feel super friendly at the time. Um, there was 0:54:47.200 --> 0:54:49.560 a lot of There was a lot of media coverage, 0:54:49.560 --> 0:54:51.760 Like the media was very curious, it was very interested, 0:54:52.160 --> 0:54:54.000 but a lot of that coverage was like why do 0:54:54.120 --> 0:54:56.799 they have no demands? Like why are they so disorganized? 0:54:56.840 --> 0:54:59.239 Why are they so smelly? Whatever? Like there was a 0:54:59.320 --> 0:55:01.040 lot of like there was lot of slander in the press, 0:55:01.080 --> 0:55:03.520 but also a lot of attention, um, which you know, 0:55:03.600 --> 0:55:05.560 I turned turned out was as good as you could get, 0:55:05.680 --> 0:55:08.560 but at the time didn't didn't feel very good. Particularly 0:55:08.640 --> 0:55:11.680 I think, yeah, but yes, those those forces, those forces 0:55:11.719 --> 0:55:17.920 were already present um in you know, in in occupy itself, um, 0:55:18.280 --> 0:55:21.839 you know, sort of denouncing it um for its disorganization 0:55:22.280 --> 0:55:24.080 um and then eventually claiming that it was the reason 0:55:24.120 --> 0:55:27.799 that Bernie Sanders happened, um, which isn't totally wrong. Yeah, 0:55:27.840 --> 0:55:30.040 I want to be really clear, like I think, and 0:55:30.080 --> 0:55:31.440 I think what we'll get into this more. But I 0:55:31.480 --> 0:55:33.840 think like the thing that about the thing that was 0:55:33.880 --> 0:55:35.839 important about occupy and the thing that the people who 0:55:36.000 --> 0:55:39.239 in my opinion, like my comrades during Occupy or people 0:55:39.239 --> 0:55:41.239 I meet who were like doing Occupy stuff but like 0:55:41.560 --> 0:55:43.640 who I didn't know, but like now we I you know, 0:55:43.680 --> 0:55:46.239 I roll with them. Most of us have the have 0:55:46.480 --> 0:55:48.840 the you know, the analysis, like it was really important 0:55:48.880 --> 0:55:50.880 that we were doing politics in the street. It was 0:55:51.000 --> 0:55:54.040 really important that we were back together they were talking politics. 0:55:54.080 --> 0:55:56.360 And then there were really really intense, extreme limits to 0:55:56.400 --> 0:55:59.200 what Occupy could have done. UM. And I think Oakland 0:55:59.239 --> 0:56:01.680 really pushed those um and and you know, and got 0:56:01.719 --> 0:56:04.160 to those but um. And I think the folks who 0:56:04.160 --> 0:56:06.560 are like, no, no, Occupy was good at the time, 0:56:06.640 --> 0:56:09.000 we're like Occupy is terrible. UM. And I think that's 0:56:09.040 --> 0:56:14.000 worth notice noting and thinking about. So I think, yeah, 0:56:14.080 --> 0:56:16.279 before we sort of going into talk a bit about 0:56:16.280 --> 0:56:18.040 what happened to Oakland to talk about some of their 0:56:18.040 --> 0:56:20.600 stuff so on on day to day basis, like what 0:56:20.800 --> 0:56:23.719 is occupy actually doing? Because I think that's also been 0:56:23.760 --> 0:56:27.360 sort of lost in this whole, Like everyone remembers like 0:56:27.440 --> 0:56:29.600 the slogans and everyonebers fact that there's a thing, but 0:56:29.640 --> 0:56:31.319 you know, like that there's there's a bunch of working 0:56:31.320 --> 0:56:33.400 groups and they're doing things like what what was that 0:56:33.560 --> 0:56:36.120 like like day to day? And then I sort of 0:56:36.120 --> 0:56:39.040 brought a lovell yeah so so um So, first of all, 0:56:39.080 --> 0:56:40.680 again I was only in New York. I spent some 0:56:40.760 --> 0:56:43.040 time at Occupied Boston as well. UM, but like I 0:56:43.080 --> 0:56:44.759 don't have a sense of what other places were like, 0:56:44.880 --> 0:56:47.000 so I really can't, I mean other than having heard 0:56:47.040 --> 0:56:48.840 from people. So I want to be very clear that 0:56:48.880 --> 0:56:51.600 I'm like mostly addressing that. Um. I think the thing 0:56:51.760 --> 0:56:53.880 that was going on was that the Zakati Park, like 0:56:53.960 --> 0:56:57.200 the park was like total chaos. Um. Part of that 0:56:57.320 --> 0:56:59.840 was because there was a drum circle that basically was 0:57:00.000 --> 0:57:03.160 owing twenty four hours a day um there, which meant 0:57:03.200 --> 0:57:05.040 that whenever you were down there and it was like 0:57:05.080 --> 0:57:08.040 a canyon. Scotty Park is surrounded by skyscrapers, so it 0:57:08.160 --> 0:57:12.160 was just this incredible cacophony all the time, um, which 0:57:12.160 --> 0:57:14.680 I think was cool. It really ruined a lot of 0:57:14.760 --> 0:57:20.200 finance bros, like like like orally with an a there 0:57:20.360 --> 0:57:23.120 um but I think like, but it also was pretty 0:57:23.360 --> 0:57:26.080 intense and unpleasant. Sometimes you were like please stop, oh 0:57:26.160 --> 0:57:28.560 my god, like that's at one point in general assembly, 0:57:28.560 --> 0:57:31.000 I think decided that drums were like only acceptable during 0:57:31.040 --> 0:57:32.800 certain hours, like near the end of the movement, like 0:57:32.880 --> 0:57:35.160 the drums the drum circle got reproached, when in fact 0:57:35.440 --> 0:57:38.680 they were like actually the biggest agents of chaos in Zuccoti, 0:57:39.920 --> 0:57:43.760 which is another important lesson, but um, yeah, I think so. 0:57:44.000 --> 0:57:46.920 So you know. Also, because I had been in bloomberg Ville, 0:57:46.920 --> 0:57:50.040 because I've been in Barcelona, I didn't invest myself very 0:57:50.080 --> 0:57:53.320 heavily in camp management stuff, so I mostly was doing 0:57:53.640 --> 0:57:55.720 um work. One of the things that I think it's 0:57:55.760 --> 0:58:00.120 forgotten about is that there were snake marches basically three 0:58:00.240 --> 0:58:03.560 or four a day every day after after the first 0:58:03.640 --> 0:58:05.640 week when we were really small, when it got big, 0:58:06.000 --> 0:58:09.160 they were just constant, constant marches through the city, just 0:58:09.280 --> 0:58:11.919 like always going off, like you would run and you'd 0:58:11.960 --> 0:58:14.000 be on one march you run into another march, like 0:58:14.040 --> 0:58:15.760 on a Saturday or Sunday, when like people were really 0:58:15.840 --> 0:58:18.520 like out there like it was, it was really like 0:58:18.640 --> 0:58:20.320 there was a lot of mayhem. There would be big 0:58:20.400 --> 0:58:23.080 planned marches that would then be bigger. Um. So there 0:58:23.160 --> 0:58:26.200 was like a lot of like, um, what people now 0:58:26.240 --> 0:58:29.120 would call direct action, what I would call largely like 0:58:29.200 --> 0:58:33.720 sort of symbolic practice for direct action. Mostly, UM, I 0:58:33.760 --> 0:58:36.240 don't mind, I like marches. I certainly got my miles 0:58:36.320 --> 0:58:37.800 in then like I don't feel like I need to 0:58:37.880 --> 0:58:40.320 do that again. But um, but you know, so then 0:58:40.400 --> 0:58:43.480 at the camp people were just living there. There were 0:58:43.520 --> 0:58:45.240 a lot of like a lot of punks, a lot 0:58:45.320 --> 0:58:46.960 of like you know, a lot of homeless folks obviously, 0:58:47.040 --> 0:58:49.439 and some and some encampments had more at a higher 0:58:49.480 --> 0:58:52.720 concentration about the house people. Some in New York because 0:58:52.760 --> 0:58:54.760 of all the media spectacle and all the money that 0:58:54.880 --> 0:58:57.200 came in. We had a lot of nonprofit drifters by 0:58:57.280 --> 0:59:01.200 the end in the encampment. But there's also like a library, um, 0:59:01.280 --> 0:59:03.200 a free library with all these books that like would 0:59:03.200 --> 0:59:05.400 be donated. Um, there's a lot of like you know, 0:59:05.480 --> 0:59:09.840 political agitation. There were people standing around the Um, the 0:59:10.080 --> 0:59:11.600 you know the corners of the park, you know, with 0:59:11.760 --> 0:59:14.480 with signs and you're yelling at people. And it's also 0:59:14.680 --> 0:59:17.080 important to remember that like Zuccatti Park in New York 0:59:17.240 --> 0:59:20.080 is tiny. It's tiny. We originally wanted to do it 0:59:20.120 --> 0:59:23.120 on in this big plaza like City Bank plaza. Um, 0:59:23.400 --> 0:59:25.560 and the cops have heard about that and fence it off. 0:59:25.640 --> 0:59:28.480 So on the seventeenth we just like we just, um, 0:59:28.960 --> 0:59:31.520 what's the word we get? We we did a oh 0:59:31.640 --> 0:59:35.440 my god football metaphors we called an audible thank you. 0:59:36.360 --> 0:59:38.440 So we said, Zuccatti is this tiny little park. It's 0:59:38.480 --> 0:59:41.439 incredibly dense, and it's surrounded by you know, like I said, 0:59:41.440 --> 0:59:43.360 to skyscrapers, it's in this really weird part of the 0:59:43.440 --> 0:59:44.960 city that no one would ever spend any time and 0:59:44.960 --> 0:59:48.640 if they didn't have to otherwise. Um. So that's sort 0:59:48.680 --> 0:59:50.160 of So there's all this stuff going on, and then 0:59:50.160 --> 0:59:53.200 they're all these their general assemblies twice a day, um, which, 0:59:53.240 --> 0:59:56.360 as I said, in New York, we're particularly unhelpful. Um. 0:59:56.720 --> 0:59:58.160 But I think anarchists and a lot of cities we 0:59:58.240 --> 0:59:59.480 have talked to you, like I had a comrade down 0:59:59.480 --> 1:00:02.200 in DC one in Denver, they sort of said that 1:00:02.280 --> 1:00:06.080 the general assemblies either quickly like got shifted or got 1:00:06.240 --> 1:00:08.400 or became irrelevant. UM. I think the general sumblies were 1:00:08.400 --> 1:00:11.240 not we're not in the end where we're symbolically important 1:00:11.320 --> 1:00:15.000 but not but not really driving force um of my 1:00:15.080 --> 1:00:17.120 experience UM. And then there would be there would be, 1:00:17.120 --> 1:00:18.760 like I said, there'd be a lot of organizing outside 1:00:18.760 --> 1:00:20.560 of the park. There'd be a lot of like meetings 1:00:20.760 --> 1:00:26.000 and you know, talks and UM, direct actions and marches UM. 1:00:26.240 --> 1:00:30.200 And then there would be you know, uh, I guess 1:00:30.280 --> 1:00:31.960 that's kind of the extent of it, right, is that 1:00:32.040 --> 1:00:33.960 there was like a lot of direct action that but 1:00:34.000 --> 1:00:36.040 there was always this park where you could go and 1:00:36.160 --> 1:00:38.120 like run into people and like hook up with people, 1:00:38.480 --> 1:00:40.720 meet people and like do a weird thing. And I 1:00:40.760 --> 1:00:42.960 think that was really like the heart of the movement 1:00:43.040 --> 1:00:45.480 was the fact that there was this place you could 1:00:45.480 --> 1:00:48.640 go meet someone and like link into something weird and 1:00:48.760 --> 1:00:50.760 maybe cool and maybe not it doesn't matter, but like 1:00:51.000 --> 1:00:52.520 there was always something to do kind of and it 1:00:52.640 --> 1:00:55.080 was constant, was like this or twenty four hour right 1:00:55.200 --> 1:00:57.680 like experience. And I think that was really what um, 1:00:58.680 --> 1:01:01.200 what separated it from from are from other movement waves 1:01:01.240 --> 1:01:03.760 that we've had, we've had since um and was was 1:01:04.200 --> 1:01:08.320 was probably I think it's greatest strength in many ways. Yeah, 1:01:08.360 --> 1:01:10.440 I think that that was That was the the impression 1:01:10.520 --> 1:01:14.440 that I got. And part of this also was when 1:01:14.440 --> 1:01:17.200 I when I was in college, like every once in 1:01:17.280 --> 1:01:21.280 a while, you just get assigned like some person writing 1:01:21.360 --> 1:01:23.200 but occupy, and it was like most of them were 1:01:23.240 --> 1:01:26.880 just extremely cranky about the whole thing. But sure, you know, 1:01:27.040 --> 1:01:28.880 one of one of the things I think was interesting 1:01:28.960 --> 1:01:33.520 about it is that everyone seemed to eree, at least 1:01:33.560 --> 1:01:35.080 to some extent, that part of what was going on 1:01:35.520 --> 1:01:39.360 was that it's it's it's this way to do I 1:01:39.400 --> 1:01:41.640 don't know if I had any formations quite the right 1:01:41.720 --> 1:01:43.520 word for it, but it's it's this way to sort 1:01:43.560 --> 1:01:49.560 of like rebuild social connections and rebuild like social sort 1:01:49.600 --> 1:01:52.000 of bonds in a way that just had you know, 1:01:52.600 --> 1:01:57.160 as public space becomes just the cops. And like there's 1:01:57.200 --> 1:01:59.440 there's a table in Chinatown that I like called the 1:01:59.520 --> 1:02:01.720 cop Table. Well I'm really mad about that, Like, because 1:02:01.760 --> 1:02:03.240 this is Chicago, chin To, I would like go there 1:02:03.240 --> 1:02:05.920 staring from the library and there's a sign sign on 1:02:06.040 --> 1:02:08.640 the table that says if you loiterer at this table, 1:02:08.720 --> 1:02:11.600 you will be arrested. It's like this is a picnic table, 1:02:12.200 --> 1:02:15.080 Like the cops are you. This table is threatening that 1:02:15.200 --> 1:02:17.080 it is going to arrest you if you use it 1:02:17.160 --> 1:02:18.720 for what's using you know, for what you're supposed to 1:02:18.760 --> 1:02:22.240 use tables for. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think 1:02:22.240 --> 1:02:24.480 I think that's right. I think like it was, you know, 1:02:24.600 --> 1:02:27.000 there was a lot of UM at the time. A 1:02:27.080 --> 1:02:30.200 lot of people were talking about UM uh embarrassingly about 1:02:30.240 --> 1:02:33.960 heart and negrees sort of like multitude stuff. Really really 1:02:34.360 --> 1:02:36.320 a much better book that was important was also UM, 1:02:36.440 --> 1:02:39.320 David Graber's debt UM. But I think, like, you know, 1:02:39.400 --> 1:02:40.880 and there was like a lot of like people saying 1:02:40.960 --> 1:02:44.600 things about like the Agora you know, UM democracy list 1:02:44.600 --> 1:02:48.240 sort of political the political encounter space of encounter UM, 1:02:48.360 --> 1:02:50.640 and that stuff wasn't all wrong. Like I mean, I'm 1:02:50.680 --> 1:02:52.320 sort of being a little sarcastic with a lot of it, 1:02:52.400 --> 1:02:55.120 but like, but I think, like, like there there was 1:02:55.160 --> 1:02:59.440 a lot of you know, UM part of how we 1:02:59.480 --> 1:03:02.800 should I think we should understand UM, the over discussed 1:03:02.920 --> 1:03:06.120 under under you know, like over analyzed word neoliberalism like 1:03:06.200 --> 1:03:08.360 has largely become meaningless. One of the things I should 1:03:08.520 --> 1:03:10.360 I think I think it's valuable for understanding is a 1:03:10.440 --> 1:03:14.320 process by which capitalism responded to the Long Sixties by 1:03:14.440 --> 1:03:18.560 disorganizing its production process such to the Long Sixties could 1:03:18.560 --> 1:03:21.080 never happen again, right, So like like the four the 1:03:21.360 --> 1:03:25.840 the control the like the concentration of workers within within 1:03:25.960 --> 1:03:28.680 production in such a way that they could be agitated 1:03:28.720 --> 1:03:31.960 by students and then like sort of radically unionized wildcat 1:03:32.200 --> 1:03:34.600 and sort of like almost overthrow a government, right Like 1:03:34.840 --> 1:03:37.920 the neoliberalism is like you know it smashes the unions, yes, 1:03:38.120 --> 1:03:42.720 but it also also like distributes out the active production, right, 1:03:42.760 --> 1:03:45.160 so that so that that's not so easily done. And 1:03:45.280 --> 1:03:48.560 I think one of the real problems of you know 1:03:48.680 --> 1:03:51.160 that was facing social movement, um you know in the 1:03:51.240 --> 1:03:53.320 in the period, you know, the long period, like you know, 1:03:53.440 --> 1:03:55.160 you had stuff like in the U s again that 1:03:55.240 --> 1:03:56.720 this is where you know the best, but like you know, 1:03:56.800 --> 1:03:59.080 you have the l A uprising which is huge, um 1:03:59.200 --> 1:04:02.200 and you have you know, the summit hopping movement and 1:04:02.200 --> 1:04:05.160 anti globalization, which you know what could attack a target. 1:04:05.560 --> 1:04:08.480 But there wasn't really a sense of like how it 1:04:08.720 --> 1:04:12.440 felt hard to do a local struggle um beyond like 1:04:13.080 --> 1:04:16.440 literally like a revolutionary riot like l A, which you know, 1:04:16.520 --> 1:04:19.080 you can't really precipitate. UM. I mean you can't really 1:04:19.120 --> 1:04:21.480 precipitate a movement either, obviously. But I think like but like, 1:04:21.640 --> 1:04:25.320 but like uh, a political political movement, a form of 1:04:25.320 --> 1:04:28.160 political organizing that didn't require something on the level of 1:04:28.160 --> 1:04:30.960 George Floyd, which is what the l A rebellion was, right, UM. 1:04:31.320 --> 1:04:34.560 But that also didn't require, like, uh, an action from 1:04:34.720 --> 1:04:36.920 capital that you were like striking against, right like the 1:04:37.120 --> 1:04:41.280 the uh you know, the Summits or whatever. UM. And 1:04:41.440 --> 1:04:43.600 that that again and like all of these eras are 1:04:43.680 --> 1:04:45.800 very important. This is not to like, you know, obviously 1:04:45.920 --> 1:04:48.480 like this is with with respect for those movements. UM, 1:04:48.880 --> 1:04:51.040 but yeah, we felt I think it felt like we 1:04:51.120 --> 1:04:52.760 were in a political wilderness. And I think that that, 1:04:53.080 --> 1:04:57.280 like UM Occupy really and the movement of the squares globally, 1:04:57.360 --> 1:05:01.080 I think UM really like demonstrated that it was possible 1:05:01.160 --> 1:05:04.720 to practice a kind of street politics even without UM, 1:05:05.840 --> 1:05:08.439 you know, a shop floor where you can organize even 1:05:08.520 --> 1:05:12.840 without UM, you know, a a a capital p party 1:05:13.360 --> 1:05:15.760 to organize within UM. And I think that was really important. 1:05:15.800 --> 1:05:17.400 I think it also scared a lot of people who 1:05:17.640 --> 1:05:20.120 and and continues to who are committed to those politics 1:05:20.760 --> 1:05:24.280 um and um to the twenty century workers movement or 1:05:24.360 --> 1:05:26.800 the nineteenth and twenty century labor movement, which they somehow 1:05:26.840 --> 1:05:29.520 fantasize will come back, um if they just wish hard 1:05:29.640 --> 1:05:31.880 enough and write net books or whatever. Um. And I 1:05:32.000 --> 1:05:35.560 think like, um so, I think that was powerful. I 1:05:35.640 --> 1:05:38.640 also think like like, yeah, sorry, we can move on 1:05:38.680 --> 1:05:40.080 to legacy later. But yes, I think that was Like, 1:05:40.120 --> 1:05:41.800 I think that was very much like an important thing 1:05:41.920 --> 1:05:46.080 was was just like and you know, um, I graduated 1:05:46.160 --> 1:05:48.880 college in two thousand nine, um so I was like 1:05:48.960 --> 1:05:51.200 part of that millennial generation that like, you know, had 1:05:51.280 --> 1:05:54.440 gone into incredibly deep debt, Like we'd have a college 1:05:54.520 --> 1:05:56.360 degree and then like the bottom fill out of the 1:05:56.360 --> 1:05:58.800 economy there were no jobs. Um And Like I think 1:05:58.840 --> 1:06:01.480 there were a lot of you know, like people who 1:06:01.560 --> 1:06:05.280 like had anticipated a middle class life um of some kind. 1:06:05.640 --> 1:06:07.880 Not that I really had at that point, but whatever, like, 1:06:08.040 --> 1:06:09.680 but but a lot of people, like in my economic 1:06:09.720 --> 1:06:15.800 cohort like had um uh suddenly facing you know, proletarianization, right. 1:06:15.920 --> 1:06:18.240 And I think that was one of the strengths of 1:06:18.280 --> 1:06:19.600 the movement. I think that was that, you know, like 1:06:19.760 --> 1:06:22.480 I mentioned the statistics in great in Spain and Greece. Like, 1:06:22.760 --> 1:06:24.520 I think that was a global aspect of this kind 1:06:24.520 --> 1:06:28.480 of movement um uh Arab Spring to like there was 1:06:28.560 --> 1:06:30.480 there was a lot of like that was really a 1:06:30.560 --> 1:06:33.760 response to the economic crisis. Obviously, those folks were already 1:06:34.200 --> 1:06:36.360 more proletarian than the people who the young people and 1:06:36.520 --> 1:06:39.840 in the squares movements, UM. But they they innovated, they 1:06:39.920 --> 1:06:42.560 created the tactics in in Arab Spring right um Terrer Square, 1:06:42.640 --> 1:06:46.920 most famously in Cairo. Um and UM I think like 1:06:47.200 --> 1:06:52.160 those creating a meeting place where um, you didn't require 1:06:52.480 --> 1:06:58.880 a preconstructed like political community um in order to engage 1:06:59.400 --> 1:07:01.360 was a strength and a weakness UM. And I think 1:07:01.360 --> 1:07:03.840 it also, you know, as a result of the dynamics 1:07:03.880 --> 1:07:05.560 of the General Assembly, the dynamics of the sort of 1:07:05.720 --> 1:07:09.520 volunteerist nature of that what I'm describing, um, it led 1:07:09.560 --> 1:07:12.240 to a lot of people who were already confident, who 1:07:12.280 --> 1:07:14.600 are already feeling good, being able to like take more 1:07:14.680 --> 1:07:17.600 power right like um uh And I think it also 1:07:17.720 --> 1:07:19.960 was a very white movement um certainly in New York, 1:07:20.040 --> 1:07:22.200 but but I think I think across the country, UM, 1:07:22.320 --> 1:07:24.320 it was largely it was largely you know it was. 1:07:24.480 --> 1:07:28.120 It was majority white in a way that you know, 1:07:28.160 --> 1:07:30.480 by higher percentages than any movement that we've really been 1:07:30.520 --> 1:07:33.480 part of since um was UM. And that was obviously 1:07:33.520 --> 1:07:35.480 a limit um for for reasons that will be obvious 1:07:35.480 --> 1:07:37.640 to everyone, including the idea that like a lot of 1:07:37.680 --> 1:07:42.600 people pushed that like the police are part of the right. Um. Okay, 1:07:42.640 --> 1:07:44.960 so let's let's talk about the police, because you know, 1:07:46.200 --> 1:07:47.880 that's you know, that's that's one of the other extremely 1:07:47.920 --> 1:07:51.640 important aspects of this is this immense militarization. I mean, okay, 1:07:51.720 --> 1:07:55.080 so I think that the militarization of the police as 1:07:55.120 --> 1:08:00.120 a phrase, I think it's somewhat misleading in that like 1:08:01.400 --> 1:08:05.280 the cops have always like shot people. Yeah, but you know, 1:08:06.320 --> 1:08:08.800 there there's yeah, there, there's there's there's still like there's 1:08:08.800 --> 1:08:11.200 an intense sort of ramp up of of the prison sector. 1:08:11.400 --> 1:08:15.440 There's you have this intense boom in the size of prisons. 1:08:15.520 --> 1:08:18.479 You have, Yeah, you have you have increasing parts of 1:08:18.560 --> 1:08:21.599 the economy that are just the entire towns that used 1:08:21.640 --> 1:08:23.360 to be sort of manufacturing sectors, used to be sort 1:08:23.400 --> 1:08:26.920 of involved in sort of industrial production that are just 1:08:27.000 --> 1:08:29.519 like the economy is now just there's a prison there 1:08:30.240 --> 1:08:33.559 and right, and I think this is also looking back, 1:08:33.640 --> 1:08:35.320 one of the things that look like occupy kind of 1:08:35.360 --> 1:08:38.719 ran ran up into because you know, occupies this attempt 1:08:38.840 --> 1:08:42.560 to like you know, form a democratic space, and it 1:08:42.960 --> 1:08:46.720 relies crucially on this this thing that is nominally in 1:08:47.040 --> 1:08:49.400 the Constitution but doesn't exist, which is the like the 1:08:50.000 --> 1:08:51.360 right to freedom of speech and the right to freedom 1:08:51.400 --> 1:08:53.960 of assembly and freedom assembly like that is that is 1:08:54.280 --> 1:08:56.560 like that is bullshit. It does not exist. If you like, 1:08:56.640 --> 1:08:59.280 if if you actually believe that this exists, like try 1:08:59.400 --> 1:09:02.120 getting like seventy people into a space and see how 1:09:02.320 --> 1:09:03.880 like just like I don't know, like into a street 1:09:03.960 --> 1:09:05.360 or just just like into into like have one of 1:09:05.360 --> 1:09:07.360 people on a park and just like see how fast 1:09:07.360 --> 1:09:09.920 the cops show up, because you know it's like, yeah, 1:09:09.960 --> 1:09:12.479 the first time yeah that I was I was at 1:09:12.520 --> 1:09:18.559 any kind of protests, cops immediately wanted to take anything 1:09:18.640 --> 1:09:21.360 I was holding. You're not you're not You're not allowed. 1:09:21.720 --> 1:09:23.759 The first thing if if if if you have anything 1:09:23.800 --> 1:09:26.680 in your hands, that's that that is a that is 1:09:26.760 --> 1:09:29.240 a problem. Yeah, it's like the First Amendment is just 1:09:29.280 --> 1:09:32.599 it's super completely superseded by traffic laws, like laws about 1:09:32.600 --> 1:09:34.800 like sidewalk maintenance, like no, it's it's all fair, like 1:09:34.960 --> 1:09:36.960 none of it like you're you're not You're not allowed 1:09:36.960 --> 1:09:38.400 to And this is this is I think is partially 1:09:38.439 --> 1:09:39.479 what this is kind of a talk, but this is 1:09:39.520 --> 1:09:41.600 part I think why there's so much focused on the 1:09:41.760 --> 1:09:43.599 right about the first Mont because they want to they 1:09:43.640 --> 1:09:45.519 want to draw attention away from the fact that, like, 1:09:45.880 --> 1:09:48.360 the actual thing that's fake about it is that you 1:09:48.520 --> 1:09:50.840 can't gather people and meat anywhere, and they want to 1:09:50.880 --> 1:09:54.080 draw it into these like inane like this professor like 1:09:54.200 --> 1:09:55.759 said the N word a bunch of times in class. 1:09:56.280 --> 1:09:58.640 Isn't it bad that people are mad at them? But 1:09:58.800 --> 1:10:01.080 but if I think also go to tyn this sort 1:10:01.120 --> 1:10:04.000 of back to occupy. You know. Okay, So, so occupy 1:10:04.600 --> 1:10:11.040 functions right insofar as there is a a physical location 1:10:11.120 --> 1:10:13.439 where people can go and physically interact with each other. 1:10:14.600 --> 1:10:17.799 And that's a problem because at some point the police 1:10:18.560 --> 1:10:22.280 are just like no, and they start clearing the encampments. 1:10:22.320 --> 1:10:23.600 And I think this is this is the other thing 1:10:23.680 --> 1:10:27.759 that occupy is that outside of like parts of Oakland, 1:10:27.880 --> 1:10:31.280 and that that's a whole other thing that yeah, but 1:10:31.880 --> 1:10:35.920 it's it's it's incredibly studiously non violent in a way 1:10:36.000 --> 1:10:42.599 that like nothing I've ever seen before since is yeah, 1:10:42.920 --> 1:10:44.920 so so so there's a lot there. I'm gonna I 1:10:45.000 --> 1:10:46.439 want to talk about it because that's there's a lot 1:10:46.640 --> 1:10:48.640 um but yeah, so I think I think the militarization 1:10:48.680 --> 1:10:52.080 of the police thesis um is is incomplete if you 1:10:52.160 --> 1:10:55.479 don't also talk about the policification of the military. Right, so, 1:10:55.600 --> 1:10:58.000 like part of what happens with with the great expansion 1:10:58.160 --> 1:11:01.960 of the of the uh Carcel state, part of that 1:11:02.120 --> 1:11:05.200 is also a response to the Vietnam War um and 1:11:05.720 --> 1:11:08.840 and mass resistance within you know, the troops they were 1:11:08.920 --> 1:11:10.439 like in the Vietnam the in like the last two 1:11:10.520 --> 1:11:12.840 years when ground troops are there in Vietnam, there's like 1:11:13.320 --> 1:11:16.519 four hundred fragging incidents where where um you know where 1:11:16.560 --> 1:11:20.280 where privates and recruits killed their officers. The U. S. 1:11:20.400 --> 1:11:23.400 Army during the during Vietnam was on the brink of 1:11:23.800 --> 1:11:26.920 of collapse in the way that like like the Russian 1:11:27.000 --> 1:11:29.400 Army was looking in it was like like like the 1:11:29.560 --> 1:11:31.439 numbers I think I think still number one point there 1:11:31.479 --> 1:11:33.320 was like forty of the army by the end of 1:11:33.360 --> 1:11:37.439 Vietnam was either on strike or just like not following orders. Yeah, no, 1:11:37.560 --> 1:11:39.640 it was, it was complete. There was the reason that 1:11:40.280 --> 1:11:42.559 Nixon pursues Vietnam sizzation, which is when they just started 1:11:42.840 --> 1:11:45.799 doing air campaigns, bombing and napalm, is because they couldn't 1:11:45.800 --> 1:11:48.000 rely on ground troops anymore. They just they were useless. 1:11:48.040 --> 1:11:49.880 They were all high. Um, you know the talk about 1:11:49.920 --> 1:11:51.080 you know, there's a lot of talking about like heroin, 1:11:51.160 --> 1:11:52.200 but like that was actually kind of a form of 1:11:52.240 --> 1:11:55.080 resistance within the lines in a complicated way. Whatever. Okay, 1:11:55.120 --> 1:11:58.519 that's all very So the military realizes that it can't 1:11:58.600 --> 1:12:02.559 function as a mass military in the model that nation 1:12:02.640 --> 1:12:05.160 states have done since the Napoleonic Wars, right, which is 1:12:05.200 --> 1:12:07.880 like the mass you know, the mass recruitment of the 1:12:07.920 --> 1:12:11.200 citizen soldier. Um, that's sort of how war is fought 1:12:11.479 --> 1:12:14.720 between you know, eighteen ten and nineteen seventy. And then 1:12:14.800 --> 1:12:17.400 it becomes clear that that's not gonna work anymore because 1:12:17.680 --> 1:12:20.720 because the aims of the countries and the power of 1:12:20.840 --> 1:12:24.080 nationalism have become too abstracted. Fascism has done too much 1:12:24.160 --> 1:12:26.200 damage to that image. There's just like there's it doesn't 1:12:26.240 --> 1:12:28.880 really work anymore. So the military turns into a sort 1:12:28.920 --> 1:12:31.439 of what it always was also which is like a 1:12:31.520 --> 1:12:33.840 colonial policing force, and so the police the military drift 1:12:34.000 --> 1:12:38.559 towards one another in form and function. Okay, So in Occupy, Um, 1:12:39.040 --> 1:12:41.200 one of the microhistories that I think it's forgotten is that, like, 1:12:41.720 --> 1:12:43.880 I mean because because it took a week, and like, 1:12:43.920 --> 1:12:46.280 who remembers this week except for like weirdos like me 1:12:46.360 --> 1:12:48.560 who were there. Um, is it like there was no 1:12:48.680 --> 1:12:50.760 one at Zuccati in the first first week. And one 1:12:50.800 --> 1:12:53.360 of the big things that happened was these these these 1:12:53.520 --> 1:12:55.719 you know, young white girls got caught in a police 1:12:55.800 --> 1:12:57.880 net and pepper sprayed, and there was this video that 1:12:57.920 --> 1:13:00.360 went around with them getting pepper sprayed and screaming. Is 1:13:00.400 --> 1:13:02.000 particularly this good this woman on her knees, you know, 1:13:02.120 --> 1:13:05.120 screaming with with tears and pepper spray going down her face, 1:13:05.479 --> 1:13:08.040 and that really outraged people because you know, they were 1:13:08.080 --> 1:13:10.240 you know, it was police depression and police violence. So 1:13:10.280 --> 1:13:12.640 in terms of the question of non violence, yes, Um, 1:13:12.760 --> 1:13:14.519 there was a lot of non violence. It was a 1:13:14.680 --> 1:13:19.080 constant fight that took honestly took until the George Floyd 1:13:19.200 --> 1:13:22.320 uprising for the right outside to win. Frankly, but but 1:13:22.600 --> 1:13:25.760 but but during occupy there was you know, there was 1:13:25.840 --> 1:13:29.880 a lot of non violence nonsense. Um and I think like, 1:13:30.680 --> 1:13:32.680 but but another thing that happened though was that like 1:13:33.000 --> 1:13:35.040 you know, like I said, people were marching every day. 1:13:35.120 --> 1:13:37.719 So even in New York, where I think the political 1:13:37.840 --> 1:13:40.240 height was kind of achieved, October one when we took 1:13:40.240 --> 1:13:42.599 the Brooklyn Bridge. Um, I think I think New York 1:13:42.720 --> 1:13:45.880 never really like had a big moment again, Like it 1:13:45.960 --> 1:13:48.960 was largely sort of like smaller things after that. But um, 1:13:49.880 --> 1:13:51.800 but like and there was a mass arrest on the 1:13:51.840 --> 1:13:53.719 Brooklyn Bridge. We marched over the Brooklyn Bridge, the brookn 1:13:53.760 --> 1:13:56.320 Bridge got shut down. They arrested seven hundred of US. Um. 1:13:56.400 --> 1:13:58.680 It was the first big infrastructure shutdown that happened in 1:13:58.680 --> 1:14:00.360 the US since the l A Riots. It was a 1:14:00.400 --> 1:14:03.080 big deal at the time. Now, can I put a 1:14:03.160 --> 1:14:06.040 note doubt though, specifically for the Brooklyn Bridge if you're 1:14:06.120 --> 1:14:08.479 because people I've seen every every single time there's one 1:14:08.479 --> 1:14:10.000 of these movements, people try to take the Brooklyn Bridge 1:14:10.000 --> 1:14:12.880 and they all got arrested. It's like, can can you 1:14:12.960 --> 1:14:15.840 all like please, I am begging you if you're going 1:14:15.880 --> 1:14:17.479 to try to take a bridge, make sure you have 1:14:17.560 --> 1:14:19.920 a way out, Like, yeah, you got to hold one 1:14:19.960 --> 1:14:25.519 of the sites to get arrested. Yeah, yeah, exactly, you 1:14:25.560 --> 1:14:28.840 got a way out a bridge designed to not have 1:14:29.000 --> 1:14:33.360 a way out. Exactly. Please please don't all get arrested. 1:14:33.520 --> 1:14:38.880 It's it's in fact bad and yeah, sorry, exactly. I 1:14:38.960 --> 1:14:41.599 have seen a few people successively take bridges a few times, 1:14:41.680 --> 1:14:43.920 but that's because there was like three cop cars and 1:14:44.040 --> 1:14:48.800 like people, if you have like a block with two 1:14:48.920 --> 1:14:52.080 hundred kids, you're not going to be able to hold 1:14:52.160 --> 1:15:03.800 the bridge. Yeah. From Cavalry Audio comes the new true 1:15:03.840 --> 1:15:08.280 crime podcast The Shadow Girls Were always wanted to know 1:15:08.479 --> 1:15:11.080 what it felt like you killed somebody and started laughing. 1:15:11.240 --> 1:15:14.960 Prosecutors described him as a serial killer, st kicking up 1:15:15.000 --> 1:15:18.280 these girls, getting him in a position of vulnerability. When 1:15:18.320 --> 1:15:20.400 he got hold of their neck, that was it. I'm 1:15:20.479 --> 1:15:24.600 Caroline Asia, a journalist and lifelong resident at the Pacific Northwest. 1:15:24.960 --> 1:15:27.160 I grew up near the banks of the Green River 1:15:27.600 --> 1:15:30.479 and in the shadow of the killer that bears its name. 1:15:30.840 --> 1:15:33.479 How many times did you bring the camera wonder of time? 1:15:33.720 --> 1:15:36.760 Just one time he started fantasizing about having sex with 1:15:37.200 --> 1:15:40.280 his mother, and he fantasized about killing her. But this 1:15:40.479 --> 1:15:44.240 podcast isn't only about tracking down the killer it's about 1:15:44.280 --> 1:15:47.479 the victims. We stayed in the woods. He always liked 1:15:47.520 --> 1:15:51.160 to go into woods, all of the kind of strange. 1:15:51.680 --> 1:15:54.160 You know how it feels about prostitutes. Listen to The 1:15:54.200 --> 1:15:57.200 Shadow Girls on the I Heart Radio app, on Apple 1:15:57.280 --> 1:16:03.479 Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Adoption of teens 1:16:03.520 --> 1:16:06.120 from foster care is a topic not enough people know about, 1:16:06.200 --> 1:16:08.920 and we're here to change that. I'm April Dinuity, host 1:16:09.000 --> 1:16:12.920 of the new podcast Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt us Kids. 1:16:13.080 --> 1:16:16.800 Each episode brings you compelling, real life adoption stories told 1:16:16.840 --> 1:16:19.360 by the families that lived them, with commentary from experts. 1:16:19.760 --> 1:16:23.480 Visit adopt us Kids dot org, slash podcast, or subscribe 1:16:23.520 --> 1:16:26.840 to Navigating Adoption presented by adopt Us Kids, brought to 1:16:26.920 --> 1:16:28.559 you by the U. S Department of Health, the Human 1:16:28.640 --> 1:16:31.679 Services Administration for Children and Families, and the ACT Council. 1:16:33.000 --> 1:16:35.759 After thirty years, it's time to return to the halls 1:16:35.800 --> 1:16:38.200 of West Beverly High and hang out at the peach pit. 1:16:38.479 --> 1:16:41.599 On the podcast nine O two one, OMG joined Jenny 1:16:41.640 --> 1:16:44.160 Garth and Tori Spelling for a rewatch of the hit 1:16:44.280 --> 1:16:46.680 series Beverly Hills nine O two one oh from the 1:16:46.840 --> 1:16:50.160 very beginning, we get to tell the fans all of 1:16:50.320 --> 1:16:53.200 the behind the scenes stories to actually happen, so they 1:16:53.320 --> 1:16:55.800 know what happened on camera obviously, but we can tell 1:16:55.880 --> 1:16:58.280 them all the good stuff that happened off camera. Get 1:16:58.320 --> 1:17:01.040 all the juicy details of every episode that you've been 1:17:01.080 --> 1:17:03.559 wondering about for decades. As nine O two one oh, 1:17:03.720 --> 1:17:06.960 super fan and radio host Sissany sits in with Jenny 1:17:07.000 --> 1:17:10.479 and Tory Too reminisce, reflect and relive each moment, from 1:17:10.520 --> 1:17:14.280 Brandon and Kelly's first kiss to shouting Donna Martin graduates, 1:17:14.560 --> 1:17:18.400 you have an amazing memory. You remember everything about the 1:17:18.600 --> 1:17:21.040 entire ten years that we filmed that show, and you 1:17:21.439 --> 1:17:24.599 remember absolutely nothing of the ten years that we filmed 1:17:24.960 --> 1:17:28.080 that show. Listen to nine O two one OMG on 1:17:28.160 --> 1:17:30.760 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 1:17:30.840 --> 1:17:39.920 get your podcasts. Welcome to Dick hauld Happened Here, a 1:17:40.000 --> 1:17:42.519 podcast about a crumbling empire and planting seeds in the 1:17:42.560 --> 1:17:45.479 spaces between. Here's part two of our interview with Vicky 1:17:45.560 --> 1:17:48.840 Ouston while about the legacy of Occupy Wall Street. But 1:17:49.000 --> 1:17:50.280 but you know, like you were saying, you know like 1:17:50.360 --> 1:17:52.080 that that you know, don't get arrested, it's bad. So 1:17:52.120 --> 1:17:55.040 I think when occupy really started, you know, we were 1:17:55.120 --> 1:17:58.559 mostly people who had been educated by the co optation 1:17:58.600 --> 1:18:00.080 of the civil rights movement, which is that it is 1:18:00.120 --> 1:18:02.120 all non violent and that the whole thing was getting 1:18:02.200 --> 1:18:04.479 arrested and Martin Luther King was like the only voice 1:18:04.479 --> 1:18:06.120 that made any sense and that was what was effective. 1:18:06.120 --> 1:18:08.000 Blah blah blah blah blah. Um. We had all learned 1:18:08.040 --> 1:18:09.560 that in school, right, We had all been trained that 1:18:09.600 --> 1:18:11.200 like non violence was like the only thing that made 1:18:11.240 --> 1:18:13.960 sense and that worked. Um. And I think like those 1:18:13.960 --> 1:18:15.400 of us who learned about it at all in school, 1:18:15.439 --> 1:18:17.720 which is certainly not everyone, but like I think, like 1:18:18.240 --> 1:18:23.200 like the the experience of occupy of like every day 1:18:23.479 --> 1:18:26.280 just getting beat up by the cops every day, like 1:18:26.360 --> 1:18:31.439 getting attacked, getting arrested. Some people got really some people 1:18:31.479 --> 1:18:34.760 got really nihilistically nonviolent, Like some people like really dug 1:18:34.840 --> 1:18:37.560 in and they're like like like we're like no, like 1:18:37.880 --> 1:18:39.920 there is nothing we can do except be beaten in 1:18:40.000 --> 1:18:42.759 the turn of this like real masochistic game. But that happens, 1:18:44.000 --> 1:18:46.680 that still happens all the time. Oh yeah, yeah, that's 1:18:46.720 --> 1:18:49.040 that's one. That's one common response. But another thing that 1:18:49.080 --> 1:18:52.519 happened was that people started breaking through that that that ship. 1:18:52.680 --> 1:18:55.920 People people started on the ground. Like I remember a march, 1:18:56.040 --> 1:18:58.280 you know, early on, you know, the police would attack 1:18:58.320 --> 1:18:59.640 and everyone would sort of like d try a d 1:18:59.800 --> 1:19:01.560 esco late and people would try to like you know, 1:19:01.640 --> 1:19:03.920 like like talk to the cops or whatever. And like 1:19:04.040 --> 1:19:06.400 by November when right before the camps got cleared, I 1:19:06.439 --> 1:19:09.680 remember being on a march where we stole all of 1:19:09.760 --> 1:19:13.120 their orange meeting using and you're just holding it over 1:19:13.160 --> 1:19:15.800 our head at large and like trapping cops in it. 1:19:15.920 --> 1:19:18.080 So like even in New York where things never gotten 1:19:18.080 --> 1:19:21.120 that intense, um like in some ways in terms of 1:19:21.120 --> 1:19:25.240 direct action like that lesson on the ground, like you 1:19:25.320 --> 1:19:27.559 have to be you have to be very ideologically committed 1:19:27.560 --> 1:19:29.639 to get hit with the baton three times and still 1:19:29.680 --> 1:19:31.280 think the police are on your side. You know, you 1:19:31.360 --> 1:19:32.880 have to like really, you have to really be drinking 1:19:32.960 --> 1:19:35.040 kool aid. And some people are like some people really 1:19:35.120 --> 1:19:37.560 do want to believe that. But I think, um, I 1:19:37.640 --> 1:19:41.960 think that was one So during occupy, like those of 1:19:42.040 --> 1:19:45.360 us who hated the police were pretty lonely even though 1:19:45.360 --> 1:19:47.200 the police were beating us up. But by the end 1:19:47.280 --> 1:19:49.519 of Occupied the seeds had really been sown for a 1:19:49.600 --> 1:19:54.000 lot of generational understanding of the police that didn't necessarily 1:19:54.800 --> 1:19:58.400 immediately so fruit like it wasn't immediately obvious, but I think, 1:19:58.520 --> 1:20:01.880 like I think like folks who stayed in struggle from 1:20:01.960 --> 1:20:04.920 there grew more and more anti police. Yeah, that was 1:20:05.000 --> 1:20:07.679 that in general. That was well, okay, so my stress 1:20:07.760 --> 1:20:11.200 was less with occupying more with like the two thirteen 1:20:11.200 --> 1:20:13.040 stuff in Turkey. But it's like that that was because 1:20:13.040 --> 1:20:15.360 I was brought up in that like this sort of 1:20:15.479 --> 1:20:19.719 like Foe Gandhi and like, yeah, MLK civil to Subians. 1:20:19.720 --> 1:20:22.920 And then it was like like I watched Turkey happened, 1:20:22.960 --> 1:20:25.280 and it was like, hey, here's my friend just like 1:20:25.560 --> 1:20:27.720 getting his ribs broken by a cop. And then like 1:20:27.800 --> 1:20:29.960 there's Raba and you know, and it were bas sort 1:20:29.960 --> 1:20:31.679 of where whe the Egyptian movement dies and were bad, 1:20:31.720 --> 1:20:33.240 they just you know, they bring out the machine guns 1:20:33.280 --> 1:20:35.960 and they just shoot everyone. Yeah, and at a certain point, 1:20:36.120 --> 1:20:38.519 like you know, this is the limited non violence, right 1:20:38.600 --> 1:20:41.439 is that what happens if they just shoot you and 1:20:41.600 --> 1:20:44.960 and Gandhi? You know, if what if you ever want 1:20:45.000 --> 1:20:47.320 to like go down to the Gandhi rabbit hole, like 1:20:47.520 --> 1:20:51.840 Gandhi like writes this letter to like like the Jews 1:20:51.920 --> 1:20:54.679 of Germany where he's telling them to like throw themselves 1:20:54.720 --> 1:20:57.360 on the blades of the Nazis, and it's like this, 1:20:57.520 --> 1:20:59.639 it's it's this is this is like yeah, it sucks. 1:20:59.720 --> 1:21:03.439 This is ridiculous, like just this is just like it's 1:21:03.479 --> 1:21:08.760 being complacent for abuse. UM. Anyone Too Studios has a 1:21:08.840 --> 1:21:13.320 really good video on why non violence helps the state 1:21:13.640 --> 1:21:18.200 UM and how basically activists that try to force other 1:21:18.400 --> 1:21:21.880 you know, demonstrators to adhere strictly to non violence, that's 1:21:21.920 --> 1:21:26.320 basically that's that's them in that's them basically saying that 1:21:26.439 --> 1:21:30.920 if like that, that's then endorsing the police beating somebody 1:21:31.040 --> 1:21:33.519 up like like that. Like that's it's it's not actually 1:21:33.600 --> 1:21:36.160 tied to any kind of movement and it doesn't actually 1:21:36.200 --> 1:21:38.160 help like I and we could actually see this last 1:21:38.280 --> 1:21:41.479 year with like the first few weeks of like you know, 1:21:41.640 --> 1:21:44.960 abuse from the state actually making headlines and actually changing people. 1:21:45.280 --> 1:21:48.360 But after a while it just didn't matter. Like a 1:21:48.439 --> 1:21:51.400 cop could put someone down and pummel their face in 1:21:51.560 --> 1:21:54.120 like August and like who gives a ship nobody, Like 1:21:54.200 --> 1:21:57.000 it doesn't it doesn't matter, you know, like that's that's 1:21:57.040 --> 1:21:59.600 why I found it funny when you talked about, like, 1:22:00.439 --> 1:22:02.479 you know, people getting mad because the cops are like 1:22:02.600 --> 1:22:04.479 mazing people when they turn into them, And I'm like, 1:22:04.720 --> 1:22:06.600 if that happened, no one, no one would give a 1:22:06.640 --> 1:22:11.080 ship Like yeah, well, like I think not at all anymore. Yeah, totally. Well, 1:22:11.200 --> 1:22:14.200 I think I think part of it is the first 1:22:14.400 --> 1:22:18.639 time that you see it, it's like what on earth? 1:22:19.439 --> 1:22:21.120 Like this this? This I think has been one of 1:22:21.160 --> 1:22:23.080 the things that's been the core of the whole sort 1:22:23.120 --> 1:22:28.800 of nineteen like late sort of cycle revolutions, is that 1:22:29.360 --> 1:22:32.080 like if if you're just like a dude in a 1:22:32.200 --> 1:22:36.559 grocery store and some guy runs in is like running 1:22:36.600 --> 1:22:38.479 away from the cops and then like fifteen riot cops 1:22:38.520 --> 1:22:39.760 and just start beating the shout out of them, which 1:22:39.760 --> 1:22:41.680 is the thing that happens like a lot. Like if 1:22:41.720 --> 1:22:45.519 you just see that, right, there's no way you can actually, 1:22:45.720 --> 1:22:49.760 like like if you ordinary person just witness the cops 1:22:49.920 --> 1:22:51.400 running up and just being the show of someone, like, 1:22:51.800 --> 1:22:54.439 there's no way you can't not be sort of radicalized 1:22:54.439 --> 1:22:56.280 against the police by it. But like, yeah, but there's 1:22:56.320 --> 1:22:58.840 there's a certain point where you hit it. The decentitization 1:22:59.040 --> 1:23:04.120 happens more quickly than what it should. Um, and we 1:23:04.560 --> 1:23:07.640 stopped caring. I agree. I agree with both of you 1:23:07.760 --> 1:23:10.280 that like that, Like both it is shocking and radicalizing 1:23:10.439 --> 1:23:14.360 and we get desensitized because there is so much spectacular 1:23:14.400 --> 1:23:18.160 pressure to naturalize the police and non violence ideology is 1:23:18.200 --> 1:23:20.519 part of that is part of naturalizing police violence, right, 1:23:20.800 --> 1:23:23.400 Like there's nothing you can do about police violence. Um, 1:23:23.720 --> 1:23:26.360 so all you can do is control yourself, and therefore 1:23:26.520 --> 1:23:28.720 you should you know, you should be better or whatever. Yeah, 1:23:28.720 --> 1:23:31.599 Gandhi had this whole fantasy about, um, the perfect army 1:23:32.000 --> 1:23:35.880 would march unarmed into machine gun fire, um, and would 1:23:35.920 --> 1:23:38.000 just be mowed down. It's it's he's a fascist, frankly 1:23:38.200 --> 1:23:41.200 um and and yeah, and you only need to look 1:23:41.200 --> 1:23:43.760 at his opinions about black Africans when he was when 1:23:43.800 --> 1:23:45.960 he Africot to see that even if you even if 1:23:46.000 --> 1:23:49.400 you just read like like even if you just read 1:23:49.720 --> 1:23:53.479 like self reliance, it's like this is you know, it's 1:23:53.520 --> 1:23:55.400 not everything I want to talk about with with the 1:23:55.720 --> 1:23:59.040 peace police though, which is that like they're also like 1:23:59.320 --> 1:24:05.120 in terms of like fighting, like inflicting violence on other protesters, 1:24:05.240 --> 1:24:08.000 like they are the most violent like of of of 1:24:08.080 --> 1:24:09.880 the factions you've seen in a pro that does happen 1:24:10.000 --> 1:24:13.760 very well, maybe not the most like like that, it 1:24:13.840 --> 1:24:17.400 does happen like like they beat people up. Like yeah, 1:24:17.400 --> 1:24:19.479 I'm just gonna say, like it ties into like protest security, 1:24:19.560 --> 1:24:23.240 and when protest security is usually working with these more 1:24:23.320 --> 1:24:26.439 like peace police type organizers, and then they use protest 1:24:26.439 --> 1:24:29.559 security to literally beat up people who are doing more 1:24:29.680 --> 1:24:33.400 radical action against the state. Um. That happens all the time. Yes, 1:24:33.479 --> 1:24:36.920 oh yeah, protest security. When I see protest security or marshals, Um, 1:24:37.000 --> 1:24:39.200 I know exactly that that the that we're in a 1:24:39.280 --> 1:24:41.599 bad We're in a bad march. Um. The only time 1:24:41.640 --> 1:24:45.280 I've ever been physically assaulted by another protester was during 1:24:45.320 --> 1:24:48.680 Occupy actually, um during after the night after you've been evicted, um, 1:24:48.760 --> 1:24:52.080 which is like November, I think. Um. And if people 1:24:52.080 --> 1:24:55.400 don't remember, Obama and the FBI coordinated this nationally, all 1:24:55.439 --> 1:24:57.720 the occupying encampments got swept within a week of each other. 1:24:58.320 --> 1:25:01.680 Um on that march. Um, we're marching around, We march 1:25:01.720 --> 1:25:04.200 around all night, UM. And I'm just dragging a trash 1:25:04.280 --> 1:25:06.080 can into the street because we're being followed by police 1:25:06.120 --> 1:25:09.479 cars and I'm literally attempting to do some education. At 1:25:09.479 --> 1:25:11.519 the same time, I'm like pulling the trash can in 1:25:11.560 --> 1:25:13.880 the street, and I'm yelling, you know, I am doing 1:25:13.960 --> 1:25:16.799 this because I want to protect us from police violence. 1:25:16.840 --> 1:25:18.760 Like if this is in the street, then the cop 1:25:18.840 --> 1:25:21.080 cars can't catch us as much. That's why we build baraka. 1:25:21.160 --> 1:25:23.360 I'm like literally trying to like yell this because, like, 1:25:23.520 --> 1:25:25.519 you know, because pulling a trash can in the streets 1:25:25.560 --> 1:25:27.880 incredibly and effective ultimately, so it was like literally it 1:25:28.000 --> 1:25:29.960 was literally just like for education purposes at that point 1:25:30.000 --> 1:25:32.040 basically anyway, especially since a lot of people would like 1:25:32.040 --> 1:25:34.080 pull them back out of the street. Whatever. This guy 1:25:34.320 --> 1:25:36.639 runs up on me and grabs me by the collar 1:25:36.760 --> 1:25:39.040 and lifts me up and like threatens me with this 1:25:39.080 --> 1:25:41.080 fucking fist, and he says, if my mom can't get 1:25:41.160 --> 1:25:44.320 to work tomorrow because of you, like I'll beat the 1:25:44.320 --> 1:25:45.960 ship out of you. And we're like we're marching in 1:25:46.040 --> 1:25:48.160 Manhattan a like one am. I'm like, what the hell 1:25:48.200 --> 1:25:50.000 are you talking about? And like he would have he 1:25:50.040 --> 1:25:51.840 would have hurt me like pretty bad if a friend 1:25:51.880 --> 1:25:53.280 of mine hadn't like luckily had my back and like 1:25:53.360 --> 1:25:55.400 de escalated a bit That's the only time I've ever 1:25:55.520 --> 1:25:58.360 been like physically like brought up like into a fight 1:25:58.960 --> 1:26:03.120 um with by by another protester. Was was a guy 1:26:03.439 --> 1:26:06.080 insisting that me dragging a trash can into the street. 1:26:06.080 --> 1:26:11.599 It was beyond the pale and I but I want 1:26:11.640 --> 1:26:14.400 to just talk a bit more, but like how systematic 1:26:14.520 --> 1:26:18.160 the violence was, like because Okay, so originally I was 1:26:18.160 --> 1:26:20.240 gonna try to get someone from Occupy Oakland to come 1:26:20.320 --> 1:26:21.560 talk about this, and I talked to a lot of 1:26:21.600 --> 1:26:24.720 people and the biggest thing that I got was that 1:26:24.880 --> 1:26:26.599 no one would talk about it on the record because 1:26:26.600 --> 1:26:29.560 they got because Oakland had Oakland had a blacklist and 1:26:29.640 --> 1:26:33.240 if if you were inoccupy and like anyone else found 1:26:33.240 --> 1:26:36.439 out about it, like people like people couldn't people spent 1:26:36.479 --> 1:26:39.320 half a decade just not being able to find jobs 1:26:39.800 --> 1:26:42.360 because they just play blacklisted everyone and like to this day, 1:26:43.320 --> 1:26:45.240 like the thing I was told was like, yeah, I'm 1:26:45.280 --> 1:26:48.479 I won't talk about this because you know, like if 1:26:48.560 --> 1:26:50.160 if I talked about this, like I will be fired, 1:26:50.280 --> 1:26:52.240 all of my family everyone around me will be fired. 1:26:52.800 --> 1:26:54.599 And there's like I think, like this is the everything. 1:26:54.640 --> 1:26:56.839 But when we talked about sort of the collapsive occupy, 1:26:57.720 --> 1:27:00.320 the the extent to which, after a bomb in the 1:27:00.760 --> 1:27:04.960 ordered the camps closed. The policy is that the comps 1:27:05.040 --> 1:27:07.679 are going to torture anyone who attempts to like gather 1:27:07.840 --> 1:27:11.479 in a place yep, yep. For for two years, you 1:27:11.479 --> 1:27:14.000 couldn't have a meeting outside without a police attacking basically, 1:27:14.120 --> 1:27:17.640 and yeah, um and and yeah, I mean it was 1:27:17.720 --> 1:27:20.640 it was. You know, I think like a lot of UM, 1:27:21.040 --> 1:27:24.160 the people who now claim that that occupy is the 1:27:24.240 --> 1:27:26.479 reason that they do politics or whatever for burning standers 1:27:26.560 --> 1:27:28.479 or whatever, UM, at the time they were saying that 1:27:28.520 --> 1:27:31.839 the reason it collapses because there was no UM organization. 1:27:31.880 --> 1:27:34.200 There was no structure, there was no political party, there 1:27:34.320 --> 1:27:36.840 was no you know whatever, there was no demands. And 1:27:37.000 --> 1:27:40.559 like it's true that it was poorly organized, like there's 1:27:40.640 --> 1:27:44.600 no doubt, um, but like we got beat out of 1:27:44.640 --> 1:27:46.599 the streets, Like we got beat out of the streets, 1:27:46.640 --> 1:27:49.600 and like people tried for six months really intensely, and 1:27:49.680 --> 1:27:52.360 for another six months after that less intensely to restart 1:27:52.439 --> 1:27:55.040 that energy. Um. There was all this works forwards, like 1:27:55.080 --> 1:27:58.000 a general strike on May Day, UM two thousand twelve, 1:27:58.080 --> 1:28:00.320 which ended up not really working, which is actually actually 1:28:00.400 --> 1:28:03.920 the kind of demand filled one day of action kind 1:28:03.960 --> 1:28:06.800 of politics that they were demanding actually really failed, which 1:28:06.800 --> 1:28:09.400 I think is telling. But but in the meantime, like 1:28:09.560 --> 1:28:11.880 you know, like occupy like Zuccati got cleared. But for 1:28:11.880 --> 1:28:14.160 a while, there was a thing. No one remembers this, 1:28:14.240 --> 1:28:15.800 I don't think, but there was a thing up in 1:28:15.960 --> 1:28:19.240 um uh Union Square. Um. There was an occupation for 1:28:19.320 --> 1:28:21.280 three weeks. There was like all the Union Square freaks 1:28:21.680 --> 1:28:25.320 um and like a bunch of occupiers um. And yeah, 1:28:25.400 --> 1:28:28.360 the cops just like it was just like batons out 1:28:28.479 --> 1:28:30.720 on site for a few years in New York. UM. 1:28:30.760 --> 1:28:32.800 And I know it was like that everywhere else or 1:28:32.840 --> 1:28:35.439 most everywhere else, and that that came down from on 1:28:35.600 --> 1:28:38.160 high that like the police were just like, oh, what 1:28:38.360 --> 1:28:41.320 was dangerous about this was people gathering in public. So 1:28:41.439 --> 1:28:43.680 we really need to like we really need to like 1:28:43.880 --> 1:28:46.800 enforce the Second Amendment being meaningless now, we really need 1:28:46.880 --> 1:28:50.920 to stop meetings from happening in public. Um. And that 1:28:51.200 --> 1:28:54.080 violence was super intense and super real, and a lot 1:28:54.160 --> 1:28:56.560 of people got beaten out of the movement, you know, 1:28:56.640 --> 1:28:58.639 and a lot of people got really demoralized and left. 1:28:58.720 --> 1:29:02.040 And I understand why. It was scary and awful and 1:29:02.120 --> 1:29:04.439 there was a lot of repression, and um, you know, 1:29:04.560 --> 1:29:06.679 and it and it, and it has continued to sort 1:29:06.720 --> 1:29:09.200 of that that kind of repression has continued to escalate. Um. 1:29:09.720 --> 1:29:12.960 But what has successfully happened in our movements, I think 1:29:13.000 --> 1:29:14.960 to our to our credit, is that we haven't actually 1:29:15.040 --> 1:29:20.479 formed the kinds of hierarchical organizations that allow for more 1:29:20.520 --> 1:29:23.439 effective police repression. All the police have right now against us, 1:29:23.479 --> 1:29:26.320 for the most part is batons in the street. Um. 1:29:26.360 --> 1:29:29.000 They have a lot more trouble infiltrating. UM, a lot 1:29:29.080 --> 1:29:31.759 more trouble, Which doesn't mean they aren't trying like crazy, 1:29:32.080 --> 1:29:34.160 but they have a lot more trouble um, um taking 1:29:34.240 --> 1:29:36.360 down the movements in the in a sort of cointel 1:29:36.400 --> 1:29:40.120 pro way, right. Um. The modes of repression have changed 1:29:40.160 --> 1:29:42.600 a bit. UM. But that's also because we don't have 1:29:43.479 --> 1:29:44.800 It's a combination of the fact that we don't have 1:29:44.840 --> 1:29:46.720 those forms of organization, but we also don't have those 1:29:46.720 --> 1:29:50.040 forms of organization because they don't emerge spontaneously from our 1:29:50.080 --> 1:29:52.360 living conditions like they used to. UM. So I think 1:29:52.400 --> 1:29:54.960 it's it's you can't just give credit to any one thing. 1:29:55.040 --> 1:29:56.960 There's a lot of different factors at play. I think 1:29:57.840 --> 1:29:59.120 I will say one of one of the other things 1:29:59.240 --> 1:30:01.000 that that I've noticed, and I think I think I'm 1:30:01.000 --> 1:30:02.720 pretty sure this has happened. Talked to talk to people 1:30:02.760 --> 1:30:04.479 are talking about that occupies it like the first thing 1:30:04.640 --> 1:30:06.280 if you have a group of people who are just there, 1:30:06.360 --> 1:30:07.640 the first thing the cops trying to do is a 1:30:07.760 --> 1:30:10.280 point a leader so that they have one person that 1:30:10.320 --> 1:30:12.000 they can go to and this and this lets them 1:30:12.040 --> 1:30:13.640 sort of this this sort of like access point to 1:30:13.680 --> 1:30:15.720 which they sort of break like the demands of the 1:30:15.760 --> 1:30:17.720 crowd is that they find one person, they point in 1:30:17.720 --> 1:30:19.120 the leader and they get that person to sort of 1:30:19.240 --> 1:30:22.400 like be the liaison. My favorite Occupied joke, I gotta 1:30:22.439 --> 1:30:24.280 give respect to Occupy Denver. This is the best joke 1:30:24.320 --> 1:30:26.760 that ever happened to Occupy. They announced the beginning of 1:30:26.840 --> 1:30:29.120 one week on Friday, we are going to announce our leader. 1:30:29.240 --> 1:30:31.639 Occupy Denver has chosen a leader, and the whole movement 1:30:31.680 --> 1:30:33.960 got so upset. Everyone was so angry. I was like, 1:30:34.040 --> 1:30:35.960 what the fuck and like they have this like big 1:30:36.040 --> 1:30:39.640 press conference and their leader was a Golden Retriever and 1:30:39.760 --> 1:30:43.720 it was like, as as who knows to Occupied Denver? 1:30:43.800 --> 1:30:47.040 Whoever organize that prank? I love you, I guess, yeah, 1:30:47.680 --> 1:30:50.000 speaking thinking of kudos to a place. The last thing 1:30:50.080 --> 1:30:54.040 I wanted to talk about was the giant like port 1:30:54.160 --> 1:30:58.280 occupation strike thing in Oakland, because I mean that that 1:30:58.400 --> 1:31:00.519 wasn't the first time people had done it, like I know, 1:31:00.560 --> 1:31:02.640 I know during the anti war movements even till like 1:31:02.640 --> 1:31:05.360 aw eight there's one of people trying to occupy ports. 1:31:06.360 --> 1:31:09.920 But and in Oakland they like did it. They really 1:31:10.040 --> 1:31:13.479 they put like forty thousand people like in this in 1:31:13.680 --> 1:31:16.519 the port of Oakland and they shut it down. And 1:31:16.600 --> 1:31:19.600 I think that was like that was one of the 1:31:19.840 --> 1:31:22.439 things one of the stories kind of been lost from 1:31:22.520 --> 1:31:26.080 this because like you know, like that was the point. 1:31:26.120 --> 1:31:27.840 Like so like I know people in Oakland who like 1:31:28.320 --> 1:31:32.000 they got like drugged, repeatedly drugged by police informants because 1:31:33.000 --> 1:31:35.800 particularly Okland, it's also Oakland is also way the walking 1:31:35.840 --> 1:31:38.160 by ok Bood is way way less white than any 1:31:38.240 --> 1:31:42.080 other movements, and they get like the kind of police 1:31:42.080 --> 1:31:47.600 oppression they get is like it's just like yeah, you 1:31:47.640 --> 1:31:50.400 know again like people people being repeatedly drugged by informants, 1:31:50.600 --> 1:31:55.360 like cops shooting people in the face, like the you know, 1:31:55.479 --> 1:31:56.760 you have you have the black list, you have all 1:31:56.800 --> 1:32:00.519 this stuff, and I think, you know, part of it, Yeah, 1:32:00.680 --> 1:32:02.439 And I think part of it is because part of 1:32:02.520 --> 1:32:04.040 it's because it's a bunch of non white people and 1:32:04.360 --> 1:32:07.599 that's you know, that's just what happens. But I think 1:32:07.800 --> 1:32:11.120 another part of it was also that there was this 1:32:11.520 --> 1:32:17.360 fear about Yes. So so the reason the port strike 1:32:17.520 --> 1:32:20.439 is able to happen is because there's sort of there's 1:32:20.439 --> 1:32:23.000 a complicated game here where the other people like sort 1:32:23.040 --> 1:32:27.000 of got involved in in like longshoreman union politics. But 1:32:27.520 --> 1:32:30.680 that sort of like fusion of of you have all 1:32:30.680 --> 1:32:33.280 the people in the street and then they start showing 1:32:33.320 --> 1:32:37.000 down ports and that like like the cops like lose 1:32:37.120 --> 1:32:40.360 their minds over that. Like that that I think was 1:32:40.479 --> 1:32:46.240 like extremely scary to them in a lot of wiz. Yeah, 1:32:46.320 --> 1:32:48.320 I mean, you know, I would you know, I would 1:32:48.360 --> 1:32:50.200 defer to anyone from Oakland who was who was there 1:32:50.240 --> 1:32:52.000 during that. You know, I have comrades there, I've talked 1:32:52.040 --> 1:32:54.040 to you have read about it since. But you know, 1:32:54.120 --> 1:32:56.879 I think I think part of the heightened police oppression 1:32:56.920 --> 1:32:59.479 and the heightened power of the Oakland occupied Oakland folks 1:32:59.600 --> 1:33:01.960 was Oscar Grant rebellion. Like I mentioned the two thousand 1:33:02.000 --> 1:33:03.760 nine which had happened, which had you know, it had 1:33:03.760 --> 1:33:05.800 been a few hundred people, but it had been really rowdy. 1:33:05.840 --> 1:33:08.800 They'd been like looting and smashing. Um maybe maybe more 1:33:08.800 --> 1:33:10.400 than a few hundred, maybe near a thousand people in 1:33:10.400 --> 1:33:13.280 the big on the first night. UM. And you also 1:33:13.360 --> 1:33:15.439 obviously have the legacy of the Black Panthers in Oakland, 1:33:15.560 --> 1:33:17.759 So you know, the Black Panther Party, you know, forms 1:33:17.760 --> 1:33:19.720 in Oakland at last in Oakland a decade and a 1:33:19.800 --> 1:33:22.320 half longer than it does anywhere else in the country. UM. 1:33:22.360 --> 1:33:24.040 So there's a lot of like and you also have 1:33:24.160 --> 1:33:26.840 the really really intense getrification of the Bay that's happening. 1:33:27.120 --> 1:33:29.519 So there's an incredible political and economic pressure in the 1:33:29.560 --> 1:33:33.639 Bay combined with this history of radicalism that really you know, um, 1:33:34.080 --> 1:33:36.439 but yeah, I think also the other thing that's really interesting. 1:33:36.640 --> 1:33:38.280 I think what you said, like you you put your 1:33:38.439 --> 1:33:39.960 you know, you hit the nail on the head, like 1:33:40.320 --> 1:33:42.200 it was largely like it was terrifying that it was 1:33:42.280 --> 1:33:44.560 the most effective direct action in the occupy movement I 1:33:44.640 --> 1:33:46.760 think was that port shutdown. I think, without a doubt, 1:33:46.840 --> 1:33:50.000 like the biggest mass direct action that that occupy achieved, um, 1:33:50.920 --> 1:33:52.600 was that November twelve was that was that with the 1:33:52.680 --> 1:33:55.639 data that I remember near the end of the near 1:33:55.640 --> 1:33:58.760 the end of the cycle. Um. And I think like 1:33:59.400 --> 1:34:02.560 the other thing ing about um about that though, was 1:34:02.600 --> 1:34:04.880 that that was very similar to the altar globalization movement, 1:34:04.960 --> 1:34:06.600 right where the unions had sort of teamed up with 1:34:07.040 --> 1:34:08.720 you know, like in Seattle there's a lot of trade 1:34:08.800 --> 1:34:10.760 unions on the ground next to all the black blocks, right, 1:34:11.120 --> 1:34:14.720 um And I think like that that image, Um, I 1:34:14.800 --> 1:34:17.759 think really it's really interesting. It really terrified the police, 1:34:17.800 --> 1:34:20.439 and it really it could be it could have been 1:34:20.479 --> 1:34:23.439 a vector for a certain kind of like labor first 1:34:23.520 --> 1:34:26.120 politics that could have emerged. But instead, like the labor 1:34:26.120 --> 1:34:28.479 first people have turned out to be all electoralists. Yeah, 1:34:28.600 --> 1:34:30.280 it seems that that's sort of a weird blip that 1:34:30.360 --> 1:34:33.840 hasn't really returned. Um. Yeah. And it's interesting too because 1:34:33.920 --> 1:34:36.920 like because now like you know, like the the the 1:34:37.240 --> 1:34:39.320 a f l C. I oh, just like you know 1:34:39.800 --> 1:34:41.599 a f l C A is like no cop unions great, 1:34:41.640 --> 1:34:43.040 and it's like there's this there's this sort of like 1:34:43.640 --> 1:34:48.200 split between the street movements and organized labor because they're 1:34:49.840 --> 1:34:52.840 off doing like electoral stuff and like cops ship, which 1:34:52.920 --> 1:34:56.040 is this sort of yeah, and and and and have 1:34:56.200 --> 1:34:58.160 been now for for seven decades, you know, I mean, 1:34:58.280 --> 1:35:01.120 I mean really like like the the buying off of 1:35:01.200 --> 1:35:03.280 the unions and the New Deal, um, you know, with 1:35:03.439 --> 1:35:05.759 some brief you know, with brief windows of like wildcat 1:35:05.800 --> 1:35:08.479 action in the seventies and the nineties, Um, the buying 1:35:08.520 --> 1:35:10.320 off of the unions has has never really gone away. 1:35:10.360 --> 1:35:12.800 Industrial unionism in the US has has long been and 1:35:12.960 --> 1:35:16.360 in and in Europe everywhere where everywhere where those developed 1:35:16.400 --> 1:35:18.719 in the early twenty century, that labor movement, Um, they've 1:35:18.720 --> 1:35:22.680 really been successfully bought off. And I don't think there 1:35:22.840 --> 1:35:25.360 is uh. I don't think that those unions are like 1:35:25.640 --> 1:35:28.360 a big easy route to power any more than I don't. 1:35:28.360 --> 1:35:30.679 I don't like I don't think they're gonna overthrow the government. 1:35:30.680 --> 1:35:32.120 I mean, but I will say, yeah, this is this 1:35:32.240 --> 1:35:34.200 is my my also my the thing that I plug 1:35:34.280 --> 1:35:35.640 every time is at the a f l C. I 1:35:35.720 --> 1:35:38.720 oh overthrew a end a like yeah, like like they 1:35:38.880 --> 1:35:41.360 they they're there are people on the ground were like 1:35:41.600 --> 1:35:45.400 directing like like we're directing a bunch of the anti 1:35:45.439 --> 1:35:47.200 a end a stuff. And it's like and it was 1:35:47.240 --> 1:35:49.400 the and it was the union bureaucracies like more recently 1:35:49.479 --> 1:35:51.519 in two thousand one, who are in the wake of 1:35:51.720 --> 1:35:56.599 September eleventh, who transformed the anti globalization rhetoric into buy American, 1:35:57.360 --> 1:35:59.719 which it turned out was often buying prison made materials. 1:36:00.439 --> 1:36:01.880 But like that was that was the union. The union 1:36:01.960 --> 1:36:06.000 sort of um defanged, defanged, alter globalization into buy American. 1:36:06.120 --> 1:36:08.000 And there's there's something like there's a whole another story 1:36:08.080 --> 1:36:11.960 there about how that like how anti globalization turned from 1:36:12.160 --> 1:36:17.080 like you know, the Zapatistas to like Trump, which is 1:36:17.120 --> 1:36:20.880 incredibly depressing, and yeah, goes goes through this line of 1:36:21.000 --> 1:36:25.720 sort of like the replacement of internationalism with nationalism and 1:36:26.080 --> 1:36:28.800 that kind of like by local stuff and the fact 1:36:28.960 --> 1:36:35.200 that like these people sort of just decided that you 1:36:35.280 --> 1:36:37.720 know personally after Seattle Port step and eleven, they're just like, 1:36:37.880 --> 1:36:40.519 we're not doing direct action again. And in Oakland's like 1:36:40.640 --> 1:36:43.559 Oaklands like like that. That's like that's like the one 1:36:43.600 --> 1:36:46.519 big exception to that was that moment, and then it 1:36:46.640 --> 1:36:49.920 just kind of just has never happened again. And that's 1:36:49.960 --> 1:36:52.360 partially because that that union that I l W is 1:36:52.400 --> 1:36:54.680 I l W I think out there is on the 1:36:54.800 --> 1:36:57.439 on the boards that was a particularly like radical union 1:36:57.479 --> 1:37:00.400 that had happen in wildcats like and and like like 1:37:00.560 --> 1:37:02.439 more democratic than any of the many of the other 1:37:02.520 --> 1:37:05.160 unions in in in those those ships. But uh yeah, 1:37:05.360 --> 1:37:08.639 but that's that's also like a big story for another time. Obviously. 1:37:09.240 --> 1:37:13.719 The conotation of global antiglobalization over the twenty year period, Yeah, 1:37:15.200 --> 1:37:16.840 you know, it's just kind of corny. But like what 1:37:16.960 --> 1:37:20.120 what can we actually learn from what happened there? What 1:37:20.200 --> 1:37:27.840 went wrong and sort of what the limits of it was? Yeah, okay, 1:37:27.920 --> 1:37:30.800 So the legacy, So I think one legacy that um, 1:37:30.880 --> 1:37:33.320 the legacy that is most widely accepted and known, which 1:37:33.360 --> 1:37:37.640 we can go over quickly, is that it reintroduced class discourse, 1:37:38.160 --> 1:37:40.920 largely into the popular you know, the n which is 1:37:40.960 --> 1:37:43.680 a very very bad class politics. But like you know, 1:37:43.840 --> 1:37:46.680 like um, like the you know, it reintroduced some of 1:37:46.760 --> 1:37:50.720 that sort of class war class war discourse and UM 1:37:50.960 --> 1:37:53.760 and I think more important than that, but but not 1:37:53.960 --> 1:37:58.920 that dissimilar. It um reintroduced um street politics into the US. UM. 1:37:59.040 --> 1:38:01.880 I think a part of legacy that gets forgotten UM 1:38:02.439 --> 1:38:05.920 because like the general the global nous of the wave 1:38:06.000 --> 1:38:10.120 gets forgotten as well, Like is that when when ship 1:38:10.240 --> 1:38:13.920 pops off in New York, everyone in the world knows, 1:38:14.360 --> 1:38:16.640 or at least they did then, right, because America had 1:38:16.680 --> 1:38:21.639 been so successfully you know, appeased politically for so long 1:38:21.960 --> 1:38:24.519 that I think that when occupy popped off um in 1:38:26.160 --> 1:38:28.439 rather it really like signals to the world, like the 1:38:28.479 --> 1:38:29.920 rest of the world like, oh, like this is real, 1:38:30.040 --> 1:38:31.599 like even in the you know, even in the center 1:38:31.640 --> 1:38:34.960 of empire, like like people are rising up. UM. It's 1:38:34.960 --> 1:38:36.920 hard to remember, and it's weird, but like there was 1:38:36.920 --> 1:38:40.080 an occupy in uh New York, in a UK, there 1:38:40.160 --> 1:38:41.680 was one in tel Aviv. There was actually kind of 1:38:41.680 --> 1:38:44.800 like a pro Palestinian occupy in tel Aviv briefly UM. 1:38:45.360 --> 1:38:47.840 And you know, I think maybe the most powerful sort 1:38:47.880 --> 1:38:51.400 of immediate tactical um offshoot of occupied was occupyed Nigeria 1:38:51.920 --> 1:38:55.599 UM in the first weeks of UM when President good 1:38:55.640 --> 1:39:00.160 Luck Jonathan um took took the fuel subsidies away and 1:39:00.240 --> 1:39:02.360 they were like sort of two weeks of really intense 1:39:02.400 --> 1:39:05.960 revolutionary rioting um in in Nigeria. That that then called 1:39:06.000 --> 1:39:08.200 themselves Occupy as a way of being legible to the 1:39:08.240 --> 1:39:13.000 rest of the world. UM. I think the other legacies 1:39:13.080 --> 1:39:15.759 though that are that are a little more sort of subtle. 1:39:15.960 --> 1:39:18.200 I guess is like that a lot of folks still 1:39:18.240 --> 1:39:20.400 in the struggle now, Like I will still meet people 1:39:20.680 --> 1:39:22.760 you know, my age, who like I've met I have 1:39:22.840 --> 1:39:24.640 two comrades here in Philly who I didn't know at 1:39:24.640 --> 1:39:26.400 the time, but who were organizing in New York, right, 1:39:26.560 --> 1:39:28.519 Like we probably hung out in rooms together, Like we 1:39:28.600 --> 1:39:30.320 probably like we were probably in the same space as 1:39:30.680 --> 1:39:32.400 But like so like a lot of folks, you know 1:39:32.840 --> 1:39:36.240 it each of these waves that has come has left. 1:39:36.400 --> 1:39:38.600 You know, some people leave, some people swing right, but 1:39:38.760 --> 1:39:41.200 like there's a residue of folks that like becomes the 1:39:41.240 --> 1:39:43.759 base for the next movement. And I think like occupy 1:39:43.840 --> 1:39:46.599 really did provide a lot of people in a way 1:39:46.640 --> 1:39:50.960 that the gap between alter globalization and occupy didn't produce 1:39:51.200 --> 1:39:53.439 nearly as large a contingent of people, although of course 1:39:53.479 --> 1:39:56.240 there are those people, UM, but I think also like 1:39:57.040 --> 1:40:00.840 really importantly like the tactics of occupy. Like one of 1:40:00.880 --> 1:40:02.960 the things that was incredible about the George Floyd uprising 1:40:03.240 --> 1:40:06.680 was that every tactic that we UM have tried in 1:40:06.680 --> 1:40:09.080 the last ten years re emerged. Right there was a 1:40:09.160 --> 1:40:13.200 prison strike, there were indigenous blockades, there were me too 1:40:13.280 --> 1:40:16.240 style callouts UM, which of course developed out of um 1:40:16.479 --> 1:40:18.280 punk and queer scene callouts that have been going on 1:40:18.320 --> 1:40:20.240 for a decade. But there were occupations, right, you had 1:40:20.280 --> 1:40:24.479 the chairs in Seattle, which we can you know, well, 1:40:24.640 --> 1:40:27.439 well what we're yeah, we will get to that one 1:40:27.520 --> 1:40:30.360 day in any case, In any case, like I think 1:40:30.439 --> 1:40:34.400 like that that has remained in the repertoire of poltarian struggle, 1:40:34.760 --> 1:40:37.760 like as a result of of occupy and and and 1:40:37.880 --> 1:40:39.560 if it had just been occupied, maybe it wouldn't be 1:40:39.600 --> 1:40:41.639 as a result of the global movement of the squares, 1:40:41.880 --> 1:40:46.000 which obviously goes until Terrier Square and Turkey, I think 1:40:46.040 --> 1:40:50.639 it's probably the Gezi Park in a Turkey, UM, which 1:40:50.680 --> 1:40:53.160 is like the last big moment of the squares really, um. 1:40:53.479 --> 1:40:56.360 But that five year wave like it was really really important, 1:40:56.479 --> 1:41:00.400 um globally, really really important locally as well, UM in 1:41:00.520 --> 1:41:03.200 terms of building activists, building a class of of well 1:41:03.320 --> 1:41:05.640 I don't you know whatever, building revolutionaries, whatever you want 1:41:05.680 --> 1:41:07.560 to call them, the good version of the thing, not 1:41:07.680 --> 1:41:10.320 the bad version of it produced a lot of them. Um. 1:41:10.560 --> 1:41:14.400 And and I think like in terms of its limits 1:41:14.439 --> 1:41:15.880 and like what we can learn from it, Like I 1:41:16.120 --> 1:41:19.040 think I think taking the police more seriously, it was 1:41:19.080 --> 1:41:21.439 really important. I think taking police violence more seriously was 1:41:21.439 --> 1:41:25.519 a really important legacy of occupy. I think, um, I 1:41:25.680 --> 1:41:30.519 think pushing towards the limit of what total democracy meant. 1:41:30.520 --> 1:41:32.560 A lot of people and Occupy remember that, like a 1:41:32.640 --> 1:41:34.960 lot of Ron Paul people and like weirdo like and 1:41:35.120 --> 1:41:38.120 the Fed cranks and like right wingers like spoken Occupy 1:41:38.160 --> 1:41:41.800 and like that. That that total open populism of of 1:41:41.880 --> 1:41:45.680 occupy I think was both probably its greatest strength and 1:41:45.760 --> 1:41:47.960 its ultimate limit, right, which was that like it was 1:41:48.120 --> 1:41:50.840 never going to be able to really like sharpen itself 1:41:50.920 --> 1:41:52.680 into the into the knife, and it wanted to be 1:41:52.840 --> 1:41:55.400 to like really change the face of of global capital 1:41:55.520 --> 1:42:00.400 or whatever um because of because there were so many white, yeah, 1:42:00.439 --> 1:42:03.519 middle class like like a bunch of the like a 1:42:03.600 --> 1:42:05.639 lot of the like the current for right media people 1:42:05.680 --> 1:42:10.880 came buy like Center Fairbanks was like an occupy streamer Simpool, Yeah, 1:42:11.520 --> 1:42:14.320 you're welcome. For Tim Poole, um, who was filming on 1:42:14.400 --> 1:42:16.800 the last day, a bunch of us um doing some 1:42:17.000 --> 1:42:20.679 things and Tim Poole did not manage to continue filming, 1:42:20.840 --> 1:42:23.080 is all I'll say. And after that is when he 1:42:23.120 --> 1:42:29.760 started swinging right. So you're welcomever um anyway, Sorry, that 1:42:29.760 --> 1:42:31.680 guy is a fucking asshole. He was an asshole then. Though. 1:42:31.800 --> 1:42:33.040 I think what's important to know is that a lot 1:42:33.040 --> 1:42:35.280 of these people were suss as hell back then to 1:42:35.479 --> 1:42:38.360 occupy folks, like they were around and occupy because of 1:42:38.439 --> 1:42:40.960 the nature of occupy, like but like they were, we 1:42:41.040 --> 1:42:42.840 already didn't like them, you know, like a lot of 1:42:42.880 --> 1:42:45.640 these people were already unpopular. We're already just liked in 1:42:45.760 --> 1:42:50.800 the movement. Um. So yeah, um, but yeah, I think 1:42:50.880 --> 1:42:53.880 I think so, I think you know, there is there 1:42:54.000 --> 1:42:57.240 there are all these different legacies, um from it that 1:42:57.479 --> 1:43:01.800 I think, Um, ultimately, the legacy things that emerged are 1:43:01.880 --> 1:43:04.080 much more important than occupy. Um. I think, you know, 1:43:04.160 --> 1:43:06.040 one of the things about it was that it really 1:43:06.200 --> 1:43:08.840 was just like the reemergence of street politics, and like 1:43:09.640 --> 1:43:12.160 like as the re emergence of street politics, like it 1:43:12.360 --> 1:43:15.880 was pretty limited, and it was not that effective at 1:43:15.960 --> 1:43:19.840 changing things. Um. And also it was incredibly effective at 1:43:19.920 --> 1:43:21.760 leading to those last decade of struggle in the US, 1:43:21.840 --> 1:43:24.200 And I think you can't you know, I think there's 1:43:24.200 --> 1:43:28.080 a tendency to want to judge movements by the immediate 1:43:28.280 --> 1:43:32.960 results that they produce, you know. Um, And like you know, 1:43:33.040 --> 1:43:35.479 I think it is my about to quote now, I 1:43:35.520 --> 1:43:37.800 think I am was it like when when he gets asked, 1:43:37.840 --> 1:43:39.960 you know, what was the what was the you know, 1:43:40.080 --> 1:43:42.439 in in the twentie anniversary of the Chinese Revolution, he 1:43:42.479 --> 1:43:45.959 gets asked like, what was the what was the outcome 1:43:46.120 --> 1:43:48.560 of the Chinese Revolution? He says, it's too early to tell, right, Like, 1:43:48.640 --> 1:43:51.200 I think, like that maybe that's I don't remember who 1:43:51.240 --> 1:43:55.439 that is. They were right, Yeah, they were right. A 1:43:55.520 --> 1:43:58.479 lot more people died than what we thought. Yeah, it's like, 1:43:58.560 --> 1:44:03.760 yeah they successfully transition to capitalism and yeah, yeah it 1:44:03.920 --> 1:44:06.599 was yeah. So, um, so what was the results of occupy? 1:44:06.680 --> 1:44:09.280 It's too early to tell, um, But I think like 1:44:09.960 --> 1:44:12.240 I also think, like the things that we've talked about 1:44:12.280 --> 1:44:15.000 here um where we're core components of what what why 1:44:15.040 --> 1:44:17.080 it matters. I do think one other kind of effect 1:44:17.160 --> 1:44:18.719 that it's had. And It's hard for me to gauge 1:44:18.800 --> 1:44:22.360 this because I've only been around post occupy, but I 1:44:22.479 --> 1:44:25.280 feel like now when people try to get stuff started, 1:44:25.680 --> 1:44:29.840 they really fall kind of into an occupy mindset where 1:44:29.840 --> 1:44:33.080 they're like, the only way to make this successful is 1:44:33.120 --> 1:44:35.800 to hold this space. And I think that is really 1:44:35.880 --> 1:44:38.879 a default way that even more experience, like both experienced 1:44:38.920 --> 1:44:42.200 organizers and new organizers. Really, can I keep you saying 1:44:42.280 --> 1:44:44.479 we're default it's because like that's just that's just really 1:44:44.560 --> 1:44:46.680 like what they go into. You saw this in a 1:44:46.680 --> 1:44:48.760 lot of different cities last year, really like people trying 1:44:48.800 --> 1:44:51.680 to set up spaces to hold UM. A lot of 1:44:51.720 --> 1:44:54.360 them did not work. You know a lot of them. 1:44:54.400 --> 1:44:55.880 A lot of them were like, oh, yeah, we're trying 1:44:55.880 --> 1:44:57.880 to try to hold the space for like an hour, 1:44:58.120 --> 1:45:00.519 because then the cops pushed us out right, and you know, 1:45:00.640 --> 1:45:03.200 in a place like the Chairs, it got extended out 1:45:03.200 --> 1:45:05.760 a bit longer that Chas had its own problems UM 1:45:06.439 --> 1:45:09.040 and other cities in the Pacific Northwest. This happened a city, 1:45:10.439 --> 1:45:12.599 it happened, and it happened a lot of places. I mean, 1:45:12.680 --> 1:45:14.800 like I think George Floyd Square is maybe one of 1:45:14.880 --> 1:45:18.920 the more honestly successful ones UM for how they were 1:45:18.960 --> 1:45:22.640 able to actually kind of keep police away, and they 1:45:22.720 --> 1:45:25.720 did they avoided turning it into this big media thing 1:45:25.840 --> 1:45:29.680 like like with the Chaz did UM. And I don't know, 1:45:29.960 --> 1:45:33.439 I think I grew very and I saw a lot 1:45:33.520 --> 1:45:36.040 of people kind of grow kind of frustrated with this 1:45:36.160 --> 1:45:39.479 like kind of occupy mentality, because what that kind of 1:45:39.720 --> 1:45:43.280 results in is people just setting up outside of a 1:45:43.479 --> 1:45:45.599 police head quarters and trying to stay there for as 1:45:45.640 --> 1:45:48.559 long as possible, which is like that's not doing anything, 1:45:48.600 --> 1:45:51.840 You're just kind of waiting to get beat up. Um. Yeah. Yeah. 1:45:51.880 --> 1:45:54.360 But it's complicated though, right, Like in defense of that tactic, 1:45:55.160 --> 1:45:57.519 like I think like like that was also very color. 1:45:57.600 --> 1:45:59.880 That was also very core to Ferguson. Right, they held 1:46:00.000 --> 1:46:02.479 West Florescent for a week and a half. Now, they 1:46:02.520 --> 1:46:04.280 did it much. They didn't do it by setting up 1:46:04.320 --> 1:46:06.439 tents and sitting there. Um. And also like you know, 1:46:06.560 --> 1:46:08.360 like like a thing that gets forgotten a lot in 1:46:08.439 --> 1:46:10.200 the lot in the histories, you know, Occupy Ice it 1:46:10.240 --> 1:46:12.439 was pretty spot. I was big here in Philly, it was. 1:46:12.600 --> 1:46:14.960 It was massive here in Portland. Yeah. Yeah. So so 1:46:15.040 --> 1:46:17.760 like there were moments when that tactic really does like 1:46:18.120 --> 1:46:19.800 it's important to have a space to meet in, and 1:46:19.840 --> 1:46:21.880 I think we did learn that. But I also agree 1:46:21.920 --> 1:46:24.639 that it has become like any tactic that works once 1:46:24.720 --> 1:46:27.519 it becomes a fetish, Right Yeah, it's always trying to 1:46:27.600 --> 1:46:30.800 balance space because like you know, the two big things 1:46:30.840 --> 1:46:33.400 that have happened the past ten years, it's occupying Hong Kong. 1:46:33.920 --> 1:46:36.439 So people try to balance these two kind of almost 1:46:36.479 --> 1:46:40.160 opposing things like hold this space and be water. That's 1:46:40.240 --> 1:46:42.080 kind of the two things that people yell at the 1:46:42.120 --> 1:46:44.280 street back and forth, and no one really knows what 1:46:44.360 --> 1:46:47.240 to do because it was yelling slogans and and and 1:46:48.000 --> 1:46:50.400 I was I was there saying about this. So they're 1:46:50.560 --> 1:46:52.599 like the one time the people in Hong Kong got 1:46:52.640 --> 1:46:54.240 pinned down when when they had to and they had 1:46:55.040 --> 1:46:58.280 versa siege, it was a ship show, like you know what, 1:46:58.320 --> 1:47:01.719 I like, the people in Hong Kong, like you know, okay, 1:47:01.760 --> 1:47:04.000 like even when they're like they they did not have 1:47:04.400 --> 1:47:07.240 by by by the time you're getting to the sort 1:47:07.280 --> 1:47:10.680 of decision of the universities like that, like you know, 1:47:10.800 --> 1:47:13.840 like they had like Moloto they had like like Molotov workshops, 1:47:14.360 --> 1:47:16.719 Like there were people like standing on the roof shooting 1:47:16.720 --> 1:47:18.240 bows and arrows and cops and it's like it just 1:47:18.400 --> 1:47:20.920 wasn't enough. And I mean and part partially partially that 1:47:20.920 --> 1:47:23.360 has to do with the fact that, like you know, 1:47:23.760 --> 1:47:26.280 Hong Kong is in a uniquely bad position insofar as 1:47:26.320 --> 1:47:28.519 it is one city, and it's like the the the 1:47:28.680 --> 1:47:31.559 only possible way that a supposed movement in Hong Kong, 1:47:32.280 --> 1:47:36.120 like ever just doesn't get crushed by just the fact 1:47:36.160 --> 1:47:38.439 that they're outnumbered, like a thousand to one is if 1:47:38.640 --> 1:47:42.120 it spreads. But like yeah, and it became this you know, 1:47:42.240 --> 1:47:46.000 like that that moments like yeah, that the this that 1:47:46.160 --> 1:47:48.599 that the whole problem with with friend to hold space 1:47:48.880 --> 1:47:51.759 because really apparently because even if you have an extremely 1:47:51.840 --> 1:47:56.480 large number of people right like like attacking one isolated 1:47:56.560 --> 1:47:58.599 space in mass even think the cops are really good 1:47:58.640 --> 1:48:00.360 at and I think they really bad at is trying 1:48:00.400 --> 1:48:03.679 to deal with like you know, like five hundred people, 1:48:04.080 --> 1:48:06.559 like seven hundred instances of five hundred people going through 1:48:06.600 --> 1:48:09.519 places because it just aren't enough of them. But yeah, 1:48:09.560 --> 1:48:12.519 that was what was it? Like the head of who 1:48:12.640 --> 1:48:16.240 wasn't it was a big and then National police in 1:48:16.280 --> 1:48:19.200 the National Police, uh you know whatever um said that 1:48:19.320 --> 1:48:21.640 like we can very easily handle one march of ten 1:48:21.680 --> 1:48:23.640 thousand people, but we can't handle ten marches of one. 1:48:24.479 --> 1:48:26.400 It was and you gotta see this in Chicago too, 1:48:26.479 --> 1:48:27.799 like this is this is this is how the police 1:48:27.840 --> 1:48:30.519 lost control of of of the miracle miles. Like yeah, 1:48:30.560 --> 1:48:34.240 it was just there's people everywhere for everywhere, and yeah, 1:48:34.280 --> 1:48:36.519 I don't know, yah know, And that's and that's how 1:48:36.640 --> 1:48:38.519 that's that's what you know. I mean, certainly in Philly 1:48:38.560 --> 1:48:40.360 where it was where it was very very powerful. That's 1:48:40.360 --> 1:48:42.120 what the George Flood rebellion looked like, was with people 1:48:42.120 --> 1:48:45.080 were everywhere in Philly, all the neighborhoods, you know, people 1:48:45.160 --> 1:48:47.679 didn't you know, like we were out there, you know whatever, 1:48:48.160 --> 1:48:51.400 um and like they're like people didn't know what was 1:48:51.400 --> 1:48:53.200 going on three blocks south, you know what I mean, 1:48:53.240 --> 1:48:54.720 Like it was like that, like there was just there 1:48:54.760 --> 1:48:58.000 were fights happening everywhere. And under those conditions, the police 1:48:58.040 --> 1:49:01.000 can't can't, no matter how tries they are, they can't 1:49:01.000 --> 1:49:05.040 act um effectively anyway they can act. They certainly will 1:49:05.439 --> 1:49:09.679 they will act like pigs um. But but I think like, yeah, 1:49:09.760 --> 1:49:12.200 so I think that that that sort of dispersion. But 1:49:12.280 --> 1:49:14.200 I think the other there's so there's I'm going to 1:49:14.479 --> 1:49:17.080 promote a really really weirdo crank book right now, but 1:49:18.400 --> 1:49:23.719 before twentie century, like literary weirdos. Guy uh Elias Connetti 1:49:24.080 --> 1:49:28.559 um Italian wrote this book called Crowds and Power, where 1:49:28.600 --> 1:49:31.680 he attempts to he attempts to describe the entirety of 1:49:31.760 --> 1:49:34.800 human history and anthropology in terms of crowds. This is 1:49:34.840 --> 1:49:38.800 obviously impossible and ridiculous, but that book has the best 1:49:38.920 --> 1:49:43.080 descriptions of crowd dynamics I have ever encountered anywhere, And 1:49:43.120 --> 1:49:45.400 I like, I like people who take big swings because 1:49:45.439 --> 1:49:48.000 they end up they miss. Yeah, miss has lots of 1:49:48.120 --> 1:49:50.479 interesting stuff. UM. I think that's why people like Settlers 1:49:50.520 --> 1:49:52.120 by Jason Kai so much. Like I think the thesis 1:49:52.200 --> 1:49:54.080 wasn't great, but there's so much incredible stuff in that 1:49:54.160 --> 1:49:56.960 book that like it works anyway. UM that having a 1:49:57.000 --> 1:49:59.200 really wild thesis allows you to like really like get 1:49:59.240 --> 1:50:02.320 into some so anyway, one of the things that Connetti 1:50:02.360 --> 1:50:05.840 talks about in that book is that UM a crowd UH, 1:50:06.000 --> 1:50:08.320 an open crowd, as he describes it, an open crowd 1:50:08.920 --> 1:50:12.920 is UM must constantly be growing, and the moment it 1:50:13.000 --> 1:50:16.639 stops growing, it starts shrinking. Right like this, I think 1:50:16.680 --> 1:50:20.000 that dynamic UM in terms of both movement and like 1:50:20.600 --> 1:50:23.720 a momentary protest or riot, right is like really real, 1:50:23.960 --> 1:50:27.519 I can and I think one of the things that UM, 1:50:27.800 --> 1:50:30.040 particularly organizers, are trained to do and like that that 1:50:30.240 --> 1:50:32.120 that we learned to do, especially in law periods, and 1:50:32.160 --> 1:50:34.400 we're like organizing these little you know, you know, these 1:50:34.439 --> 1:50:38.320 little crystallized groups of like hard cadre or whatever is that, 1:50:38.439 --> 1:50:40.960 like you that like what we learn as organized is 1:50:41.120 --> 1:50:44.920 something that is defendable. But once you start defending something, 1:50:45.200 --> 1:50:48.680 you start losing it because we cannot take on the 1:50:48.800 --> 1:50:51.800 state or the police in a head on confrontation. Um. 1:50:52.000 --> 1:50:54.840 And this is this can be confusing because sometimes you 1:50:54.880 --> 1:50:56.920 can successfully defend for a few weeks, maybe even a 1:50:56.960 --> 1:51:00.200 few months. You can defend a space sometimes, but once 1:51:00.240 --> 1:51:03.240 people get really interested in the defending, then they begin 1:51:03.360 --> 1:51:07.160 forming bureaucracies, governments, internal policing, security forces, whatever it is. 1:51:07.560 --> 1:51:11.080 They start becoming the like the the They start undermining 1:51:11.160 --> 1:51:13.040 the very thing that made it powerful, which was this 1:51:13.240 --> 1:51:16.120 sudden rapid growth, the sudden like you know, like like 1:51:16.320 --> 1:51:20.280 big explosion of power and self recognition that comes in 1:51:20.360 --> 1:51:23.439 the beginning of movement. And I think, I don't think 1:51:23.520 --> 1:51:27.240 there's a way to will that problem away, Like I 1:51:27.280 --> 1:51:29.240 don't think we can just like think our way out 1:51:29.280 --> 1:51:31.680 of it, like it's just a problem. But I do 1:51:31.920 --> 1:51:33.920 think that like one thing that we could take from 1:51:34.000 --> 1:51:36.640 the experience of occupying the experience the last decade is 1:51:36.680 --> 1:51:39.599 that like if you do, you know, consider yourself someone 1:51:39.600 --> 1:51:41.280 who wants to participate in these kind of movements, which 1:51:41.320 --> 1:51:44.360 is probably why you're listening to this podcast. UM. Right now, UM, 1:51:45.240 --> 1:51:48.920 don't try and defend, like, don't try and defend Like 1:51:49.320 --> 1:51:52.439 some things will need to be defended sometimes obviously, but 1:51:52.560 --> 1:51:55.120 like if your main thing is like the thing, we 1:51:55.240 --> 1:51:59.200 should never defend something we've achieved so far, UM, we 1:51:59.240 --> 1:52:01.360 should never not be willing to destroy it in order 1:52:01.439 --> 1:52:04.200 to like build something bigger. Right, Like we should never 1:52:04.680 --> 1:52:07.960 no movement thing that we have, be it an occupy part, 1:52:08.040 --> 1:52:11.160 be it, be it like a take in space. Defending 1:52:11.240 --> 1:52:15.800 that should never outweigh the possibility of expanding. And if 1:52:15.840 --> 1:52:18.639 that's our strategic mindset. Obviously moment to moment you can't 1:52:18.640 --> 1:52:21.320 just be thinking that constantly. But the strategic mindset is 1:52:21.800 --> 1:52:25.720 like what we have now is only good to the 1:52:25.800 --> 1:52:29.040 extent that it can turn into something more, UM, rather 1:52:29.160 --> 1:52:31.720 than we have to defend what we have now. If 1:52:31.760 --> 1:52:34.080 you can think that way, I think it opens up 1:52:34.080 --> 1:52:37.360 a lot of strategic possibilities. UM. And I think it's 1:52:37.400 --> 1:52:39.800 it's what has worked over the last decade that I've 1:52:39.840 --> 1:52:43.400 seen is UM, when people attack, when people expand, when 1:52:43.439 --> 1:52:45.320 people try to do try to do new stuff. It 1:52:45.400 --> 1:52:50.360 doesn't always work and it doesn't always hold, but that's 1:52:50.439 --> 1:52:52.639 what When that stuff stops happening, the movement is doomed. 1:52:53.200 --> 1:52:54.559 I think I think that. I think that's a really 1:52:54.600 --> 1:52:57.800 good way to wrap things up. I think that's a nice, 1:52:58.000 --> 1:53:00.559 beautiful sentiment. I kind of view this type of thing 1:53:01.200 --> 1:53:03.519 in more than just protests and you know, and into 1:53:03.720 --> 1:53:06.320 differentastets of life. I think you can always learn from 1:53:06.360 --> 1:53:09.360 past experiences, from past struggles, but if you try to 1:53:09.439 --> 1:53:13.400 perfectly replicate them, you're absolutely gonna fail. You can should 1:53:13.400 --> 1:53:15.240 always learn and move on, but you should not be 1:53:15.360 --> 1:53:18.680 focused on any kind of replication. Is there any of 1:53:19.320 --> 1:53:21.840 your book store writings you'd want to plug before we 1:53:21.960 --> 1:53:25.000 wrap up here? Sure? Yeah, I mean I wrote a 1:53:25.040 --> 1:53:27.960 book that came out last year, UM called Defensive Looting. 1:53:28.240 --> 1:53:32.760 UM came out UM with both type UM. I am 1:53:33.000 --> 1:53:36.840 currently also writing. UM. I'm obsessed with movies. I write 1:53:36.840 --> 1:53:40.320 a movie review UM column for the Al Jazeera plus 1:53:40.560 --> 1:53:43.360 UM I did not know letters. Yeah, the news letter 1:53:43.400 --> 1:53:45.760 sub stack UM. If you want to read, I mean, 1:53:45.840 --> 1:53:47.680 it's really it is really a movie reviews. So if 1:53:47.720 --> 1:53:49.600 you want you know, cranky anarchist theory, it's not the 1:53:49.640 --> 1:53:52.600 spot for you. Um. Otherwise, Yeah, I'm I'm on a 1:53:52.720 --> 1:53:55.439 pretty long social media break right now, but good for 1:53:55.560 --> 1:54:01.559 you there. Eventually I'll probably come back inevitably, um unfortunately. Yeah, 1:54:02.360 --> 1:54:04.680 you know, I just have I have writing popping up 1:54:04.720 --> 1:54:07.960 every every now and then, and um, and if you 1:54:08.040 --> 1:54:11.679 read it, I would appreciate it. Well. Yeah, absolutely wonderful. 1:54:11.760 --> 1:54:13.760 Thank you, and yeah, thank you for so much for 1:54:13.880 --> 1:54:19.560 coming on to talk about, um, occupying stuff that I 1:54:19.640 --> 1:54:22.040 think a lot of people hear about, but you know, 1:54:22.160 --> 1:54:25.559 at least all of my generation does not fully kind 1:54:25.600 --> 1:54:30.160 of grasp it. Um. It is. It is literally my pleasure. 1:54:30.320 --> 1:54:33.400 Like I you know, i wasted so much of my 1:54:33.480 --> 1:54:35.280 life thinking about this. I'm so glad to be able 1:54:35.320 --> 1:54:38.920 to share some of it with some people. I'm so 1:54:39.240 --> 1:54:40.960 so glad you're able to join us too. This is 1:54:41.360 --> 1:54:44.440 I've been looking forward to us for a while. Yeah, 1:54:44.480 --> 1:54:48.800 that's very excited. All right. That wraps up us today. 1:54:48.920 --> 1:54:51.360 You can find us on Twitter and Instagram, at cool 1:54:51.480 --> 1:54:54.480 Zone Media and Happen Here Pod. We'll be back in 1:54:55.040 --> 1:55:08.520 for a few more episodes. This week. Audios executive producer 1:55:08.640 --> 1:55:12.480 Harris Hilton brings back the hit podcast How Men Think 1:55:12.960 --> 1:55:16.200 and That's good news for anyone that is confused by men, 1:55:16.600 --> 1:55:19.920 which is basically everyone, get an inside look at what 1:55:20.120 --> 1:55:23.040 goes on in the mind of men from the men themselves. 1:55:23.360 --> 1:55:26.880 It's real talk, straight from the source. How Men Think 1:55:26.960 --> 1:55:29.560 podcast is exactly what we need to figure them out. 1:55:29.920 --> 1:55:32.720 It's going to be fun and formative and probably a 1:55:32.880 --> 1:55:36.160 bit scary at times because we're literally going inside the 1:55:36.280 --> 1:55:38.880 minds of men. As much as we like to think 1:55:39.040 --> 1:55:43.240 all men are the same, they're actually very different. Each week, 1:55:43.400 --> 1:55:46.920 a celebrity guest host provides honest advice in his area 1:55:47.040 --> 1:55:49.840 of expertise. When I agreed to do this reboot, I 1:55:49.920 --> 1:55:54.240 had a few conditions. No sugarcoating, no mind games, and 1:55:54.360 --> 1:55:58.600 absolutely no man splaining. Men are hard enough to understand 1:55:58.680 --> 1:56:01.640 without the mind games. Listen to How Men Think on 1:56:01.720 --> 1:56:04.920 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 1:56:05.000 --> 1:56:10.320 get your podcasts. I'm Jake Halbern, host of Deep Cover. 1:56:10.680 --> 1:56:13.080 Our new season is about a lawyer who helped the 1:56:13.160 --> 1:56:18.080 mob run Chicago. We controlled the courts, we controlled absolutely everything. 1:56:18.960 --> 1:56:22.080 He brobed judges and even helped a hit man walk free, 1:56:22.680 --> 1:56:25.400 until one day when he started talking with the FBI 1:56:25.920 --> 1:56:29.240 and promised that he could take the mob down. I've 1:56:29.280 --> 1:56:31.320 spent the past year trying to figure out why he 1:56:31.400 --> 1:56:34.600 flipped and what he was really after. From my perspective, 1:56:34.800 --> 1:56:36.880 Bob was too good to be true. There's got to 1:56:36.920 --> 1:56:39.600 be something wrong with this. I wouldn't trust that guy. 1:56:39.960 --> 1:56:42.880 He looks like a little scum, big lawyer, stool pidging. 1:56:42.960 --> 1:56:45.200 He looked like what he was or at. I can 1:56:45.240 --> 1:56:47.800 say with all certainty I think he's a hero because 1:56:47.880 --> 1:56:49.360 he didn't have to do what he did, and he 1:56:49.440 --> 1:56:51.880 did it anyway. The moment I put the wire around 1:56:51.920 --> 1:56:55.080 the first time, my life was over. If it ever 1:56:55.200 --> 1:56:58.480 got out, they would kill me in a heartbeat. Listen 1:56:58.560 --> 1:57:00.440 to deep Cover on the I heart Rate your app, 1:57:00.480 --> 1:57:07.600 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Ev Rodsky, 1:57:07.720 --> 1:57:10.080 author of the New York Times bestseller fair Play and 1:57:10.200 --> 1:57:13.720 Find Your Unicorn Space, activists on the gender division of labor, 1:57:13.920 --> 1:57:17.800 attorney and family mediator. And I'm Dr Addina Rukar, a 1:57:17.880 --> 1:57:20.960 Harvard physician and medical correspondent with an expertise and the 1:57:21.000 --> 1:57:24.720 science of stress, resilience, mental health, and burnout. We're so 1:57:24.920 --> 1:57:28.040 excited to share our podcast Time Out, a production of 1:57:28.120 --> 1:57:32.560 I heart Podcasts and Hello Sunshine, we're uncovering why society 1:57:32.640 --> 1:57:34.880 makes it so hard for women to treat their time 1:57:34.920 --> 1:57:37.680 with the value it deserves. So take this time out 1:57:37.800 --> 1:57:41.320 with us. Listen to Time Out a fair play podcast 1:57:41.600 --> 1:57:44.839 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever 1:57:45.040 --> 1:57:57.760 you get your podcasts. Uh, that was the introduction, I 1:57:57.840 --> 1:58:02.440 did it, Sophie. Sophie's saying, that's an acceptable introduction. You 1:58:02.520 --> 1:58:04.680 know what podcast this is. You clicked on it, so 1:58:04.720 --> 1:58:06.160 I don't need to tell you the title. I don't 1:58:06.200 --> 1:58:07.520 need to say who we are. I'm just going to 1:58:07.640 --> 1:58:11.320 dive right into the fucking episode. No I'm not. This 1:58:11.480 --> 1:58:14.840 is It Could Happen Here, a podcast about things falling 1:58:14.880 --> 1:58:17.240 apart and uh and what to maybe do to to 1:58:17.600 --> 1:58:20.880 arrest that and do something better in its place? And uh. 1:58:21.600 --> 1:58:24.120 You know, folks who are are regular listeners who listened 1:58:24.120 --> 1:58:27.320 to the original scripted episodes of It Could Happen Here, 1:58:27.400 --> 1:58:30.400 the first fifteen episodes, which I certainly recommend to everybody. 1:58:30.840 --> 1:58:34.160 Know that one area in which I kind of separate 1:58:34.320 --> 1:58:38.040 from a lot of particularly more liberal folks and even 1:58:38.120 --> 1:58:40.480 some folks on the left, is an embrace of the 1:58:40.680 --> 1:58:44.880 fact that firearms are sometimes necessary tools, especially in times 1:58:44.920 --> 1:58:48.040 of collapse when things get bad. Um. Now that said, 1:58:48.120 --> 1:58:52.840 we're also not uh kind of gun culture people here. 1:58:53.080 --> 1:58:55.800 We try not, to, for one thing, recommend that everybody 1:58:56.200 --> 1:58:58.120 necessarily pick up a gun. There's a lot of people, 1:58:58.560 --> 1:59:01.400 perfectly nice people who shouldn't have them, who don't need 1:59:01.480 --> 1:59:03.480 to have them, you know, if you're dealing with suicidal 1:59:03.520 --> 1:59:05.440 ideation or whatever. We're not. The point is, we try 1:59:05.480 --> 1:59:08.360 to be very careful about how we we talk about 1:59:08.440 --> 1:59:13.000 firearms as a potentially useful you're being potentially necessary tool 1:59:13.120 --> 1:59:15.800 in the times that we're in. And today, since we're 1:59:15.800 --> 1:59:18.800 a few weeks into this, we've covered producing food, We've 1:59:18.880 --> 1:59:23.000 covered some medical stuff. We've talked about uh, community organizing, 1:59:23.040 --> 1:59:24.800 and a number of other things that I think our 1:59:24.880 --> 1:59:29.240 priorities for most people before you know, getting strapped. Today, 1:59:29.280 --> 1:59:31.520 we're gonna talk a little bit about getting strapped. And 1:59:31.600 --> 1:59:34.040 my guest today is Paul. Paul, do you want to 1:59:34.120 --> 1:59:36.400 kind of introduce your background in brief so people know 1:59:36.560 --> 1:59:40.760 why why you're on here. Sure, Robert Uh I was 1:59:40.800 --> 1:59:44.720 in the Marine Corps and Infantry, and after that I 1:59:44.800 --> 1:59:49.000 went to security consulting and then to the Federal Protective 1:59:49.080 --> 1:59:53.360 Service and finally the A. T. F some of our 1:59:53.400 --> 1:59:58.960 funnest agencies. Yeah, all my favorite organizations there. Well they're 1:59:59.000 --> 2:00:01.680 bet in the what is it, the f d A. Yeah, 2:00:01.800 --> 2:00:03.800 they beat the f d A. I mean in terms 2:00:03.840 --> 2:00:05.880 of body count, they'res certainly better than the f d A. 2:00:09.120 --> 2:00:11.240 And what what do you do now, Paul that you're 2:00:11.520 --> 2:00:14.440 you're you're out of that line of work. Uh, well, 2:00:14.480 --> 2:00:16.400 I do two things. I got a day job at 2:00:16.480 --> 2:00:21.480 disney World, and then the side gig is we run 2:00:21.720 --> 2:00:27.040 a explosives and machine guns supply company, also body armor, 2:00:27.600 --> 2:00:30.960 a handful of other things, but that's the big thing 2:00:31.080 --> 2:00:35.960 is destructive devices. Yeah, and uh, you've you've got I 2:00:36.040 --> 2:00:38.560 think experience that a lot of people, particularly on this 2:00:38.640 --> 2:00:40.760 side of the political i'll lack you know. One of 2:00:40.840 --> 2:00:44.360 the one of the downsides of kind of rejecting the 2:00:44.600 --> 2:00:47.400 federal government in the military and all its forms, is 2:00:47.440 --> 2:00:49.680 that there's a lot of people who may accept the 2:00:49.760 --> 2:00:52.400 validity of being armed and don't really have much in 2:00:52.440 --> 2:00:55.800 the way of practical training. And firearms are tools that 2:00:55.960 --> 2:00:59.200 to use most efficausly do require training. In practice, you 2:00:59.280 --> 2:01:02.240 can't just you can pick them up and be dangerous, 2:01:02.320 --> 2:01:04.600 but not in a way that is particularly protective. To 2:01:04.680 --> 2:01:09.720 you in your community. Oh yeah, UM, so I wanted 2:01:09.760 --> 2:01:12.880 to talk about kind of recommendations and and everything. We 2:01:13.000 --> 2:01:15.520 talk about nothing. We're not talking in the context of 2:01:15.560 --> 2:01:18.720 forming a militia or in the context of you know, 2:01:19.000 --> 2:01:22.160 showing up with guns to to yell at people at 2:01:22.160 --> 2:01:24.160 a protest. If that's the thing you're choosing to do, 2:01:24.640 --> 2:01:26.960 that's a whole different ball game. We're talking about, um, 2:01:27.720 --> 2:01:31.520 kind of responsibly arming yourself and your community in a 2:01:31.640 --> 2:01:34.440 way that is not going to get you in legal trouble. Um. 2:01:34.640 --> 2:01:36.760 It is also not going to endanger them. Because one 2:01:36.760 --> 2:01:39.160 of the things you have to accept about firearms is that, um, 2:01:39.840 --> 2:01:43.440 there's a risk you know, related to owning a firearm. Um. 2:01:43.680 --> 2:01:46.640 Not just the risk that like you know, suicide risk 2:01:46.800 --> 2:01:48.280 raises if you have a gun in the house, but 2:01:48.400 --> 2:01:51.200 just um, if you don't use them properly. Even carrying 2:01:51.240 --> 2:01:54.720 a gun. You know, it's not unheard of for people 2:01:54.800 --> 2:01:57.000 carrying guns to have those weapons taken from them and 2:01:57.080 --> 2:01:59.440 used against them. It happens to police, and it happens 2:01:59.480 --> 2:02:02.880 to armed citizens. So it's it's a matter of um, 2:02:03.800 --> 2:02:06.520 you know, I think when you accept that you're going 2:02:06.640 --> 2:02:10.360 to be armed, there's something incumbent upon you to understand 2:02:10.440 --> 2:02:12.320 the risks of being armed. And I guess that's kind 2:02:12.320 --> 2:02:13.760 of where I want to start. Like, what are some 2:02:13.800 --> 2:02:17.080 of the big pitfalls you see people uh fall into, like, 2:02:17.920 --> 2:02:21.920 um that I think traditionally training is supposed to help 2:02:21.960 --> 2:02:26.720 allay to some degree. Uh. Well, probably number one is 2:02:27.000 --> 2:02:29.760 uh grandpa's gun in the closet that's been there for 2:02:30.080 --> 2:02:32.920 forty years unfired, and somebody just picks it up and 2:02:33.960 --> 2:02:36.600 throw some ammo in it to go huna deer, and 2:02:37.640 --> 2:02:39.520 you know it's got a barrel obstruction or something just 2:02:39.560 --> 2:02:43.760 blows up, you know. Um. But number two and and 2:02:44.600 --> 2:02:47.520 the one that can be mitigated by training rather than 2:02:47.640 --> 2:02:52.080 just general uh not being stupid, because it's kind of 2:02:52.080 --> 2:02:53.880 stupid to pick something up that's really old and just 2:02:53.960 --> 2:02:58.560 try to shoot it. Is um, not shooting yourself, and 2:02:58.920 --> 2:03:01.360 when you do go out to the range, not shooting 2:03:01.400 --> 2:03:04.640 other people, and then not shooting people in your own home. 2:03:05.280 --> 2:03:10.840 M you know, you don't, as much as you might 2:03:10.880 --> 2:03:13.640 want to say, defend your own home, do you want 2:03:13.680 --> 2:03:16.960 to shoot your wife when she comes home at two 2:03:17.080 --> 2:03:20.680 thirty in the morning, uh, after work and wakes you up. 2:03:22.200 --> 2:03:24.480 And there are ways to mitigate that, and and it's 2:03:24.560 --> 2:03:28.240 really easy and it's really cheap. So yeah, let's let's 2:03:28.360 --> 2:03:30.560 let's start with some of those just if you're if 2:03:30.640 --> 2:03:32.720 you're new too, if you've decided I need a gun 2:03:32.840 --> 2:03:36.240 for whatever reason, you purchase a gun. Um, you know, 2:03:36.480 --> 2:03:39.320 I think the most basic first things are in terms 2:03:39.360 --> 2:03:42.120 of like actually making that relatively safe. Is number one, 2:03:42.160 --> 2:03:45.560 knowing which which kind of firearm to purchase and number two, 2:03:46.080 --> 2:03:47.840 And these are not in order of importance, these are 2:03:47.880 --> 2:03:51.200 both very important. Number two is securing that weapon properly, 2:03:51.280 --> 2:03:54.480 as opposed to just having it laying loose in the house, 2:03:54.840 --> 2:03:57.000 which is never the best place. The best way to 2:03:57.040 --> 2:04:03.320 store a firearm, is it. Um? Yeah, I mean I 2:04:03.800 --> 2:04:07.560 own a number of personal firearms. Um. You know, I'm 2:04:07.600 --> 2:04:10.320 in my office right now where I got a locked 2:04:10.360 --> 2:04:12.000 door nobody can get in, and I got a gun 2:04:12.080 --> 2:04:17.360 safe back behind the monitors. Um. And you know I'm 2:04:17.400 --> 2:04:20.480 comfortable with that. But if if it was in a 2:04:20.520 --> 2:04:22.360 place where kids could get at it, you don't want 2:04:22.360 --> 2:04:24.960 to just stuff it in, uh, in a sock in 2:04:25.080 --> 2:04:27.280 the closet, which is actually what my mom did when 2:04:27.320 --> 2:04:31.120 I was a kid. Yeah, I mean safe storage, and 2:04:31.240 --> 2:04:34.520 I mean really being able to identify your target is 2:04:34.600 --> 2:04:39.360 probably the biggest preventer of like inter family accident because 2:04:39.400 --> 2:04:41.200 I know, you know, we do talk about safe storage, 2:04:41.320 --> 2:04:44.960 kids and all that, but um, back to the wife 2:04:45.080 --> 2:04:47.840 coming home, if you just put a light on your gun, 2:04:48.640 --> 2:04:51.520 a hundred dollar light, you can look at the thing 2:04:51.600 --> 2:04:54.360 that you're shooting in the middle of the night and uh, 2:04:54.640 --> 2:04:57.360 not shoot someone you don't want to shoot. Yeah. I 2:04:57.400 --> 2:04:59.200 would go so far as to say that, like, if 2:04:59.240 --> 2:05:02.080 you've got a a home defense weapon without a light 2:05:02.200 --> 2:05:06.280 on it, Um, you don't fully have a home defense weapon. No, no, yeah, 2:05:07.120 --> 2:05:11.920 you know, Um, it's gonna be useless in roughly half 2:05:12.000 --> 2:05:14.640 of the situation. And statistically, like if you're looking at 2:05:14.680 --> 2:05:16.720 when people are actually tend to be endangered in their 2:05:16.760 --> 2:05:19.320 own homes, the vast majority of the situations in which 2:05:19.320 --> 2:05:22.680 you might be in danger. Um. When it comes to 2:05:22.800 --> 2:05:25.960 weapons selection, uh, this is another area where like if 2:05:26.000 --> 2:05:27.960 you go on maybe one of the worst places in 2:05:28.000 --> 2:05:30.360 the world to have this discussion as Twitter, because everybody 2:05:30.440 --> 2:05:34.240 has the opinions on Twitter. Um, I tend to say 2:05:34.280 --> 2:05:36.760 because I think most people when they're looking for a 2:05:36.840 --> 2:05:39.160 first gun, if they're if they're committed, just like thinking 2:05:39.200 --> 2:05:40.920 of personal defense, they're going to go for like a 2:05:41.000 --> 2:05:43.400 lock or something. And I think unless you're planning on 2:05:43.520 --> 2:05:45.680 carrying a gun, and you can correct me if you 2:05:45.720 --> 2:05:48.400 disagree here, but I tend to think a handgun again, 2:05:48.520 --> 2:05:51.920 unless you're intending on carrying a concealed weapon, is the 2:05:52.080 --> 2:05:55.160 last thing that you should own as a gun owner. Um. 2:05:56.920 --> 2:06:00.280 I got a mixed opinion on that. I mean, yeah, 2:06:00.360 --> 2:06:06.440 I think that, uh, the handiness of a handgun can 2:06:06.520 --> 2:06:10.320 outweigh some of the issues. I know you guys dealt 2:06:10.360 --> 2:06:14.920 with fires up there, we have hurricanes. Um, being able 2:06:15.000 --> 2:06:19.320 to stick a handgun into a backpack you know it 2:06:19.440 --> 2:06:23.720 can go a long way, or being ab um, keep 2:06:23.880 --> 2:06:26.960 keep it on you in your car, because here we're 2:06:27.480 --> 2:06:31.760 depend on state laws. Everything you say depends on state laws. Yeah, 2:06:31.840 --> 2:06:34.000 there are states where you can Yeah. Yeah. If you're 2:06:34.040 --> 2:06:36.400 in California and you're in one of the counties that 2:06:36.640 --> 2:06:40.040 it doesn't issue a concealed carry of license like l A, 2:06:40.160 --> 2:06:43.600 it's really hard to get one from what I understand, Berndino, 2:06:43.680 --> 2:06:45.440 if you want to get one of those, yeah, I mean, 2:06:45.520 --> 2:06:48.360 first off, like tooth, I got a short list of guns, 2:06:48.400 --> 2:06:50.880 and like two thirds of the list illegal in California. 2:06:51.320 --> 2:06:55.839 They're they're not on roster. But for what's most usable 2:06:55.880 --> 2:06:59.920 against our most handy, it's probably a handgun. But if 2:07:00.080 --> 2:07:05.440 you're expecting a threat more than uh like thirty feet away, 2:07:06.440 --> 2:07:08.840 have something other than a handgun. Handguns they suck at 2:07:08.920 --> 2:07:12.520 hurting people, they suck at killing people. Yeah, they're they're ineffective. 2:07:13.000 --> 2:07:15.800 They're hard to use. I mean, say thirty feet away. 2:07:15.840 --> 2:07:18.920 But if you're not training regularly, hitting something reliably in 2:07:18.960 --> 2:07:21.400 a stressful situation at thirty ft with a handgun can 2:07:21.480 --> 2:07:25.920 be difficult. It's not easy. Yeah, um, it's not easy, 2:07:25.960 --> 2:07:28.240 and I tend to recommend number one. There are some options, 2:07:28.280 --> 2:07:30.520 like even if you're sticking with a handgun, there are 2:07:30.600 --> 2:07:34.120 different kind of um like uh options for that. Like 2:07:34.200 --> 2:07:37.800 I I'm a big advocate of pistol caliber carbines, which 2:07:37.840 --> 2:07:41.520 is essential the size of a small rifle, so you 2:07:41.640 --> 2:07:44.360 can fit them easily in a backpack. Every backpack I've owned, 2:07:44.440 --> 2:07:46.480 you can you can stick something like um like a 2:07:46.560 --> 2:07:50.320 Sazy scorpion in without much difficulty. And because they're so 2:07:50.400 --> 2:07:52.960 When you're talking about what makes a weapon easier to use, 2:07:53.560 --> 2:07:55.560 number one of the number one things is size. So 2:07:55.680 --> 2:07:57.920 the longer the barrel, the more accurate it is. The 2:07:58.000 --> 2:08:00.280 heavier the gun, the less recoil is a problem, the 2:08:00.320 --> 2:08:02.960 easier it is to use it. Range um and a 2:08:03.040 --> 2:08:05.800 pistol caliber carbine. You know you stick a light on that. 2:08:05.960 --> 2:08:10.000 That's a really good home defense weapon. Oh absolutely, yeah, 2:08:10.040 --> 2:08:13.880 I mean especially uh, people will argue about the different 2:08:13.920 --> 2:08:16.280 types of magazines, but if you buy one that takes 2:08:16.560 --> 2:08:20.200 a glock magazine and you have a glock, you can 2:08:20.320 --> 2:08:23.160 build a full little load out that's just takes all 2:08:23.200 --> 2:08:27.240 the same magazines. One is more accurate, one is a 2:08:27.360 --> 2:08:31.760 handgun UM, and you know, all the same AMMO. You're 2:08:31.800 --> 2:08:35.600 not having to uh figure out and read a bunch 2:08:35.680 --> 2:08:37.880 on on what kind of AMMO you need and stuff 2:08:37.920 --> 2:08:40.440 like that. You just buy one and it works for everything. Yeah, 2:08:40.560 --> 2:08:42.520 and when when you're talking about AMMO, I think one 2:08:42.560 --> 2:08:45.720 of the most important things, like especially if you're worried 2:08:45.720 --> 2:08:49.200 about a survival situation, is is availability um. Which is 2:08:49.240 --> 2:08:51.480 the nice thing about like what we call the NATO caliber. 2:08:51.560 --> 2:08:54.720 So the NATO calibers are nine millimeter seven six two 2:08:54.720 --> 2:08:56.920 by fifty one better known as three O eight your 2:08:56.920 --> 2:08:59.680 grandpa's hunting rifle, and seven six two by fifty one 2:09:00.280 --> 2:09:02.960 UM or it's thirty six but whatever, UM and then 2:09:03.280 --> 2:09:05.880 five five six slash two to three and those are 2:09:05.920 --> 2:09:08.560 the rounds that's like six is the standard. That's what's 2:09:08.600 --> 2:09:13.000 in your bog standard a r UM. And so almost 2:09:13.080 --> 2:09:17.160 no matter what happens, UM, including you know Ammo crunches, 2:09:17.280 --> 2:09:19.720 you will be able to find some amounts of these 2:09:19.840 --> 2:09:23.120 fliverers genital day through your neighbors and you're going to 2:09:23.240 --> 2:09:25.400 find a box of bullets. They might not even owe 2:09:25.440 --> 2:09:27.640 a gun and they got a boxing nine millimeter. Yeah, 2:09:27.760 --> 2:09:31.440 everybody's got nine millionaire and UM, so yeah, I think 2:09:31.520 --> 2:09:35.560 that the basics of like, um, what to get if 2:09:35.600 --> 2:09:38.440 you're looking at kind of just a basic defensive arm, um, 2:09:38.840 --> 2:09:41.280 you know how to store it safely? You know those 2:09:41.360 --> 2:09:45.680 kind of questions are important, Um when it comes to training. Uh, 2:09:46.840 --> 2:09:48.919 what are some of in your opinion, like the mistakes 2:09:49.000 --> 2:09:51.520 that you see people make when it comes to kind 2:09:51.560 --> 2:09:55.720 of of of practicing training with their weapon. Um, going 2:09:55.920 --> 2:09:59.520 to an n R A basic like four hour class 2:09:59.640 --> 2:10:04.040 and thin king that you are a god. Um, They're 2:10:04.240 --> 2:10:07.560 there are people who have spent UM five days a 2:10:07.640 --> 2:10:13.120 week going to classes and doing training because there's practice 2:10:13.160 --> 2:10:16.640 and then there's training. Training is where someone teaches you something. Uh, 2:10:16.840 --> 2:10:20.680 practices where you go with what you're already taught. Right. Um, 2:10:20.920 --> 2:10:22.880 So there there are people that spend all that time 2:10:23.120 --> 2:10:26.440 and there's still not the best in the world. Um, 2:10:26.600 --> 2:10:29.360 there are people who do a ton of practice. Jerry Micklock, 2:10:29.920 --> 2:10:31.760 you know, I don't know if you ever seen him shoot, 2:10:31.840 --> 2:10:35.360 but he's uh he's like the fastest gun in the 2:10:35.400 --> 2:10:38.839 world or something like that. Um, his videos are crazy. 2:10:39.040 --> 2:10:41.680 Oh yeah, yeah, I mean he'll he'll outshoot a full 2:10:41.720 --> 2:10:45.160 auto gun. Yeah, with with revolvers and it's just like, 2:10:46.040 --> 2:10:49.040 you know, it's just absolutely mind blowing. Um. But now 2:10:49.200 --> 2:10:51.600 he's like he's like he's like Michael Jordan or something. 2:10:51.640 --> 2:10:54.520 You know, you just get people who have it's just 2:10:54.840 --> 2:11:00.440 that natural ability. Um, certainly married with a practicing But yeah, continue, 2:11:01.040 --> 2:11:04.200 if if you had a fight, a gunfight, which they 2:11:04.280 --> 2:11:05.840 really don't happen that much, but if you had a 2:11:05.880 --> 2:11:09.760 gun fight between um, a guy with a high point 2:11:09.920 --> 2:11:17.040 C nine who had the cheapest quote reliable handguns on 2:11:17.080 --> 2:11:19.480 the face there, if you had a guy with that 2:11:19.640 --> 2:11:22.240 that had had paid five hundred dollars for a training 2:11:22.280 --> 2:11:25.160 class over weekend and still went in Uh, went to 2:11:25.200 --> 2:11:28.600 the shooting range every week and practiced and um, or 2:11:28.640 --> 2:11:30.440 not even every week, just every month, and then did 2:11:30.520 --> 2:11:33.400 dry fire drills once a month in his garage or whatever. 2:11:34.200 --> 2:11:37.720 Versus a guy who went out and bought a Wilson 2:11:37.880 --> 2:11:42.080 Combat three thousand dollar nineteen eleven but had only taken 2:11:42.120 --> 2:11:44.080 the n R A class. I will bet on the 2:11:44.120 --> 2:11:48.280 guy with the eight or the C nine all day long. Um, 2:11:48.640 --> 2:11:51.680 even if he's only got one bullet, you know, yeah, 2:11:51.880 --> 2:11:55.320 don't don't care, He'll win. And often, like for all 2:11:55.360 --> 2:11:57.160 of it, for all of the guys you see, you know, 2:11:57.440 --> 2:11:59.800 in all of their tactical gear and whatnot in the 2:12:00.040 --> 2:12:03.320 spare mag's taking a three hundred rounds out. If you 2:12:03.400 --> 2:12:07.320 actually look at most defensive shootings, UM, it's very common. 2:12:07.400 --> 2:12:10.800 And I think, like like three to five rounds, three 2:12:10.840 --> 2:12:13.880 to five rounds generally closer than thirty feet, sometimes closer 2:12:13.920 --> 2:12:17.520 than like ten or fifteen sits in my pocket most 2:12:17.560 --> 2:12:24.320 of the time. It's nineteen so tiny. Um, it has 2:12:24.400 --> 2:12:27.480 more bullets than I'll ever need to gunfight. Probably. I 2:12:27.600 --> 2:12:29.760 think I want to pivot from this point to UM. 2:12:30.400 --> 2:12:33.800 We started this by it introducing that you you spent 2:12:33.920 --> 2:12:36.160 some time in the A t F spent some time 2:12:36.200 --> 2:12:39.320 in the FPS. I haven't had any personal interactions with 2:12:39.360 --> 2:12:41.120 the A t F, but I have met some FPS 2:12:41.160 --> 2:12:46.200 guys support. You know, I'm kind of curious, especially as 2:12:46.240 --> 2:12:48.840 because I came in contact with you through your through 2:12:48.880 --> 2:12:53.320 your Twitter, where you're you're very my personal Twitter. Yeah, 2:12:53.600 --> 2:12:56.320 and you're you're quite politically active now, um in a 2:12:56.360 --> 2:12:58.560 way that I think is surprising people for someone with 2:12:58.640 --> 2:13:01.080 your background. Are you in protable with kind of tracing 2:13:01.640 --> 2:13:03.680 sort of the broad strokes of your journey there, because 2:13:03.680 --> 2:13:09.320 I think that's instructive um for folks oh at FPS specifically, Well, 2:13:09.440 --> 2:13:13.080 just kind of what brought you from there to hear? Oh? Um? 2:13:13.800 --> 2:13:18.480 So I got kind of uh, oh man, what what's 2:13:18.560 --> 2:13:21.440 what's the word for when you just get uh? I 2:13:21.520 --> 2:13:23.680 don't know. I just I got to a point. I 2:13:23.800 --> 2:13:27.120 showed up for for work at four thirty in the 2:13:27.200 --> 2:13:32.960 morning and I was literally shuffling through some some paperwork 2:13:33.800 --> 2:13:36.920 and and was getting ready to file a warrant and 2:13:37.000 --> 2:13:40.440 just kind of realized, I I didn't think that it 2:13:40.560 --> 2:13:44.400 needed to happen, And you know, I talked to my 2:13:44.720 --> 2:13:48.800 supervising agent about it, and UM was kind of told 2:13:48.960 --> 2:13:52.120 too bad. And and I put in for some vacation 2:13:52.240 --> 2:13:55.560 time and ended up putting in my resignation while I 2:13:55.600 --> 2:13:58.120 was on vacation. I mean that that's the gist of 2:13:58.160 --> 2:14:03.960 how I became not a cop. Yeah, And um, I'm wondering, 2:14:04.040 --> 2:14:08.360 kind of what do you think? Is there anything that 2:14:08.480 --> 2:14:10.840 kind of I don't know, what looks different to you 2:14:11.000 --> 2:14:13.280 now as you've kind of left that behind? Was it 2:14:13.400 --> 2:14:16.960 like sort of, Um, I'm guessing there's like a period 2:14:17.040 --> 2:14:19.160 like a goldfish, you know, in a new bowl of 2:14:19.400 --> 2:14:24.440 of acclamation to to life outside of being a cop. Um? Like, 2:14:24.640 --> 2:14:26.520 what what were the first kind of things that started 2:14:26.560 --> 2:14:28.880 to shift in your perspective when you left that that 2:14:29.040 --> 2:14:35.280 thought space. I'll tell you what, watching or reading whatever, 2:14:35.400 --> 2:14:38.120 an article or a YouTube video, especially now that body 2:14:38.200 --> 2:14:44.839 cams are more and more prevalent, is watching something, reading 2:14:45.160 --> 2:14:49.880 the the press release and going But that's that's not 2:14:50.000 --> 2:14:52.800 what happened. Like I just watched it and and and 2:14:52.960 --> 2:14:55.760 going from being able to justify it in your own 2:14:55.800 --> 2:14:59.240 mind and literally argue with people and be a hundred 2:14:59.320 --> 2:15:04.320 percent convey like that was a good shoot. Um. Castillo? 2:15:04.520 --> 2:15:08.200 What it was a Philandro Castillo? Yeah, oh god? And 2:15:08.280 --> 2:15:11.640 he was man if you've if you've gotten lost track 2:15:11.720 --> 2:15:15.160 of this shooting in between all the others. Filando was 2:15:15.320 --> 2:15:18.040 a black man, a legal gun owner with a legal 2:15:18.120 --> 2:15:20.800 concealed carry permit, who was pulled over with his girlfriend 2:15:20.840 --> 2:15:24.040 and child in a car and hands on the wheel, 2:15:24.120 --> 2:15:28.000 told the officer he had a gun, uh, and got shot. Um, 2:15:28.760 --> 2:15:30.560 you know, and it did the thing you're supposed to do. 2:15:30.680 --> 2:15:33.560 Although now actually since then, you will get like some 2:15:33.720 --> 2:15:36.520 states will and some training classes will recommend if it's 2:15:36.520 --> 2:15:38.960 not legally required and you're carrying a gun, don't say 2:15:38.960 --> 2:15:44.120 anything for that reason. But I mean, yeah, the command 2:15:44.320 --> 2:15:48.240 to not reach for the gun to being shot multiple 2:15:48.320 --> 2:15:51.800 times in the chest was like under two seconds. Um, 2:15:52.440 --> 2:15:54.280 So I mean, I mean the decision was already made 2:15:54.320 --> 2:15:55.960 as soon as as soon as he gave the command, 2:15:56.000 --> 2:16:00.360 the decision was made. Here's what that brings me too, 2:16:00.480 --> 2:16:02.520 in terms of a question that's relevant to the topic 2:16:02.640 --> 2:16:06.920 of community self defensive potential community armed self defense, because 2:16:07.000 --> 2:16:09.240 that's not that is a that is a cop problem, 2:16:09.280 --> 2:16:11.200 but that's not just a cop problem. And what happened 2:16:11.280 --> 2:16:14.600 everybody problem in the chop in the chairs in Seattle, 2:16:14.760 --> 2:16:16.920 the the autonomous zone is evidence of that. You had 2:16:17.000 --> 2:16:21.120 this situation where people, after nights and nights of mostly 2:16:21.240 --> 2:16:24.680 inaccurate warnings about proud boys coming to attack, got amped up. 2:16:25.080 --> 2:16:27.920 They had guns, some kids drove by in a car 2:16:28.000 --> 2:16:29.880 and they fucking shot him to death. Um. And it 2:16:30.040 --> 2:16:33.000 is the same, it's the same mental thing happening. You 2:16:33.040 --> 2:16:35.720 don't have to have a badge for that that mindset 2:16:35.959 --> 2:16:40.240 to infect, especially when you're carrying a gun. Um, how 2:16:40.320 --> 2:16:46.520 do you, in your opinion, fight back against that chill? Uh? 2:16:46.720 --> 2:16:55.439 You know, like like honestly, Um, if you were a teenager, 2:16:55.520 --> 2:16:57.400 which we grew up in almost the same place you're from, 2:16:57.440 --> 2:17:03.040 plane oh, from Capel, So I would have argued with 2:17:03.120 --> 2:17:05.160 you about them being the same place when the same 2:17:05.640 --> 2:17:09.080 But they're the same place. Yeah, they're absolutely the same place. 2:17:09.400 --> 2:17:13.960 Yeah one has uh one has uh woot dot com 2:17:14.120 --> 2:17:17.520 and the other one has raytheon so you know, and 2:17:17.600 --> 2:17:25.080 a bunch of hospitals. Um. But uh, you and I 2:17:25.200 --> 2:17:27.560 grew up in the same time, same place, same types 2:17:27.600 --> 2:17:31.320 of schools. How many times did you see in like 2:17:31.680 --> 2:17:35.920 high school or even middle school, just a guy hit 2:17:36.000 --> 2:17:38.800 on a girl and then the girl's boyfriend comes over 2:17:38.879 --> 2:17:41.760 and just starts fighting him, like like like the guy 2:17:41.920 --> 2:17:45.120 had no reason to know. He didn't know he was 2:17:45.200 --> 2:17:50.520 doing anything wrong. Um. And I'm not suggesting, I'm sorry. 2:17:50.600 --> 2:17:55.400 What I'm pointing out is that, um, it's almost ingrained 2:17:55.800 --> 2:18:00.840 in us at a societal level to to react violently 2:18:01.440 --> 2:18:06.440 to maintain like our personal position. And if that means 2:18:06.480 --> 2:18:11.480 that I'm in my neighborhood and I don't recognize someone, 2:18:12.360 --> 2:18:14.800 it may seem like violence is the right way to go. 2:18:15.080 --> 2:18:17.800 That's actually what what you're doing when like what's it called, 2:18:17.879 --> 2:18:20.600 Karen ng you know where you call somebody the black 2:18:20.800 --> 2:18:25.280 kid yell uh selling water bottles or whatever. Um, I 2:18:25.400 --> 2:18:27.560 know that was one in New York where the police 2:18:27.640 --> 2:18:30.440 came and harassed you know, some like twelve year old 2:18:30.480 --> 2:18:35.039 black kids because they were selling water bottles. Um, it's 2:18:35.080 --> 2:18:36.640 the same thing. I mean, you know in that case, 2:18:36.720 --> 2:18:39.160 you're not personally doing the violence, You're just calling somebody 2:18:39.200 --> 2:18:42.080 else to do it for you. Um, because you know 2:18:42.200 --> 2:18:44.960 the police are kind of violence, violence of monopoly and 2:18:45.040 --> 2:18:50.800 all that. Yeah. Yeah, And that's some one of the 2:18:50.879 --> 2:18:53.880 most I think important things about that is the idea 2:18:54.080 --> 2:18:58.720 of violence is like when you when you're willing to 2:18:58.760 --> 2:19:01.080 accept violence to kind of mean hein your your your 2:19:01.120 --> 2:19:04.080 social position or something. UM. And I think that has 2:19:04.120 --> 2:19:06.240 a huge amount to do with with the kind of 2:19:06.320 --> 2:19:09.920 violence you see um at protests with like we've had, 2:19:10.200 --> 2:19:12.960 you know, protests quote unquote security here in Portland, people 2:19:13.000 --> 2:19:15.760 kind of declaring themselves security And what does that mean 2:19:16.240 --> 2:19:19.480 shooting other kids within guns for graffiti liked up? But 2:19:19.560 --> 2:19:21.360 it is it is a matter for it's they're not 2:19:21.520 --> 2:19:24.400 doing it to protect anybody. They're doing it because they've 2:19:24.400 --> 2:19:27.280 declared themselves security. Somebody doesn't listen to what they say 2:19:27.400 --> 2:19:29.200 and their ego is hurt. It's the same thing that 2:19:29.320 --> 2:19:31.879 again cops do. It's this it's a human mindset. It's 2:19:31.920 --> 2:19:36.120 not just a a cop mindset. And UM, I think 2:19:36.200 --> 2:19:38.960 you when you're talking about like, I think there's a 2:19:39.040 --> 2:19:41.240 couple of things. Number One, if you're going to be armed, 2:19:41.280 --> 2:19:42.800 and if you're going to be armed in a community 2:19:42.840 --> 2:19:44.600 self defense role, one of the things you have to 2:19:44.680 --> 2:19:48.360 accept is that like you're not, as a person who 2:19:48.480 --> 2:19:50.760 is armed and cares about the defense of your community, 2:19:50.840 --> 2:19:53.160 you're not a separate thing from them. I think that's 2:19:53.160 --> 2:19:55.720 one of the areas where which policing goes wrong. May 2:19:55.959 --> 2:19:59.640 view yourself as a separate Yeah, And I know, you 2:20:00.040 --> 2:20:03.080 guys have a big problem with that. Um, what we 2:20:03.200 --> 2:20:06.840 do here too. I live in a metro and our 2:20:06.959 --> 2:20:11.440 metro police, like them, don't even live in the county. Yeah, 2:20:11.720 --> 2:20:14.360 they all go the same here. Yeah. Yeah, they don't 2:20:14.400 --> 2:20:16.760 even not just the city, they don't live in the 2:20:16.800 --> 2:20:21.040 whole county. Um. And that's despite they get a living 2:20:21.080 --> 2:20:23.320 allowance if they'll live in the city, and there's a 2:20:23.360 --> 2:20:26.039 bunch of if they live in the city, they get 2:20:26.080 --> 2:20:29.120 a take home car. There's a bunch of incentives to 2:20:29.240 --> 2:20:32.880 try and get people to live here, and they still 2:20:32.920 --> 2:20:35.880 won't do it. They want to go live in the 2:20:35.959 --> 2:20:40.040 next sheriff over, the next county where yeah we have 2:20:40.120 --> 2:20:42.640 a very vocal sheriff the next county over. Who's who's 2:20:42.680 --> 2:20:47.160 really racist and all that ship? Um? And I yeah, 2:20:47.240 --> 2:20:50.800 I think if you're if you're talking about like the 2:20:50.920 --> 2:20:55.200 potential of again of like armed community self defense, um 2:20:55.879 --> 2:21:00.320 you almost I almost would prefer phrasing it de friently 2:21:00.560 --> 2:21:03.720 community self defense, you know, um, which should be the 2:21:03.959 --> 2:21:10.160 entire community. Yeah. Yeah, community And you're not the gun 2:21:10.440 --> 2:21:14.360 isn't what you are. You're not you're not security, you're 2:21:14.400 --> 2:21:17.640 not self defense because you're armed your self defense because 2:21:17.640 --> 2:21:19.920 you're a member of the community, and if you personally 2:21:20.000 --> 2:21:23.200 choose to be armed, that is an option that is 2:21:23.280 --> 2:21:26.279 expanded to you specifically because you're armed. But it doesn't 2:21:26.360 --> 2:21:28.560 change fun. It shouldn't change what you are. And if 2:21:28.640 --> 2:21:32.840 it does, there's a phrase that I think is really useful, Um, 2:21:33.400 --> 2:21:35.400 the finger pulls the trigger and if you want to 2:21:35.440 --> 2:21:38.199 avoid or the trigger pulls the finger. Sorry. And it's 2:21:38.240 --> 2:21:41.480 this idea that when you show up armed, and you're 2:21:41.520 --> 2:21:44.480 showing up armed as someone like your purpose there is 2:21:44.560 --> 2:21:47.280 to be armed, you're at at heavy risk of the 2:21:47.400 --> 2:21:52.400 weapon guiding your responses. Um. And that's the most important 2:21:52.480 --> 2:21:55.640 thing in any circumstance to avoid if you're carrying a weapon. 2:21:55.760 --> 2:22:00.640 If if you've gotta hammer, everything's a nail exactly. Well. 2:22:00.800 --> 2:22:04.800 And and uh, the last twenty years we've had kind 2:22:04.840 --> 2:22:07.440 of a with the War on Terror. You've seen a 2:22:07.480 --> 2:22:14.720 proliferation in media around um making Navy Seals and all 2:22:14.760 --> 2:22:18.560 that ship look really really really cool. Uh, every other 2:22:18.640 --> 2:22:21.240 movie is about that, even though like, really they're just 2:22:22.040 --> 2:22:25.400 drunk guys who yell at people a lot and who 2:22:25.480 --> 2:22:28.480 occasionally commit murder to protect. Or was that was that 2:22:28.560 --> 2:22:30.440 the Seals? Was that the Green Berets who killed that 2:22:30.520 --> 2:22:33.800 guy to protect a drug trafficking Greg, I mean probably both. 2:22:34.000 --> 2:22:35.960 Oh you know that that was the Green Berets in 2:22:36.120 --> 2:22:40.160 North Carolina. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it 2:22:40.280 --> 2:22:43.320 crosses all all borders. Um. But one thing that's come 2:22:43.320 --> 2:22:46.800 out of that is we we've started to call those 2:22:46.840 --> 2:22:51.640 guys operators, right, So you've gone from a gun being 2:22:51.720 --> 2:22:56.360 a tool that someone trains there to use too, they 2:22:56.360 --> 2:23:00.800 are merely an operator of a weapons system. Um. And 2:23:01.000 --> 2:23:04.920 it it's kind of dehumanizing, like it allows you to 2:23:05.320 --> 2:23:08.000 get out of the thought on that. Um, it's exactly 2:23:08.040 --> 2:23:10.440 what you were talking about. Where where the triggers really 2:23:10.520 --> 2:23:15.040 pulling the finger at that point? Um? Yeah, And it's 2:23:15.200 --> 2:23:17.600 it's I think there's a number of I don't know, 2:23:18.680 --> 2:23:21.560 there's a number of tactics and more than we can 2:23:21.600 --> 2:23:23.400 get through, and that we'll be talking with some other 2:23:23.480 --> 2:23:25.720 community to self defense people at some point in the 2:23:25.800 --> 2:23:28.440 near future about this, because this is a big topic, right, 2:23:28.480 --> 2:23:30.800 and it's not one I haven't seen anyone do it 2:23:31.240 --> 2:23:34.640 super well yet in the United States like we anytime 2:23:34.720 --> 2:23:38.000 you have kind of persistent right wingers every once in 2:23:38.080 --> 2:23:43.480 a while, yeah, yeah, they take over blm Land. Yeah, yeah, 2:23:43.959 --> 2:23:46.360 but then they die. I forgot about that. Yeah, they 2:23:46.400 --> 2:23:51.880 did die get killed. Um And I think that it's 2:23:52.000 --> 2:23:56.800 it's a it's a really messy topic because of you know, 2:23:56.920 --> 2:23:59.160 what you brought up is a valid point, all the 2:24:00.040 --> 2:24:02.440 reading that all the kind of social baggage there is 2:24:02.480 --> 2:24:05.080 around weaponry in this in this country and in our 2:24:05.200 --> 2:24:08.400 in our culture. This kind of like worship of the gun. 2:24:08.600 --> 2:24:11.680 And if you think like the left is any more 2:24:11.720 --> 2:24:13.640 immune to that than the right, you're wrong. You see 2:24:13.680 --> 2:24:16.360 the same you know, toxic behavior all around. You have 2:24:16.520 --> 2:24:19.520 to be extremely cognizant of it, even if you know 2:24:19.600 --> 2:24:22.440 it's something at the risk for there is um weapons 2:24:22.480 --> 2:24:26.080 in general have a mental impact on us carrying them. Um. 2:24:26.240 --> 2:24:28.040 And there is there is a level of just like 2:24:28.160 --> 2:24:32.160 being around weaponry that is entrancing. It's it's a human thing. 2:24:32.240 --> 2:24:35.240 You know, we make weapons. It's we're too using apes 2:24:35.280 --> 2:24:37.520 and weapons are some of the first tools that we 2:24:37.680 --> 2:24:41.040 made that that are responsible for why you know, we 2:24:41.160 --> 2:24:43.800 get to tell the dogs and the cats what to do. Um. 2:24:45.040 --> 2:24:48.600 And you have to you have to really approach being 2:24:48.840 --> 2:24:52.760 armed from a standpoint of rejecting a lot of that. 2:24:52.959 --> 2:24:55.160 If you're going to do it responsibly. I mean, among 2:24:55.240 --> 2:24:57.440 other things, the idea that you might have to use 2:24:57.520 --> 2:25:01.720 a gun UM has to be you're you're very close 2:25:01.800 --> 2:25:05.880 to your worst nightmare UM, because it would be it 2:25:05.959 --> 2:25:08.240 would be if you ever actually had to use one. 2:25:08.800 --> 2:25:10.960 UM at minimum, you're talking like when you actually look 2:25:11.000 --> 2:25:14.280 at like legal self defense shoots, you're talking minimum. The 2:25:14.360 --> 2:25:17.040 next if you kill somebody, at least minimum, the next 2:25:17.120 --> 2:25:20.760 year of your life is dealing with the legal consequences 2:25:20.800 --> 2:25:23.880 of that. Sure, and probably hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah, 2:25:24.360 --> 2:25:28.080 I mean, if you're having if if IF IF file, 2:25:28.440 --> 2:25:32.000 if charges get filed, you're talking hundreds of thousands of 2:25:32.080 --> 2:25:37.320 dollars for like a capital defense case, if not millions. Yeah, 2:25:37.879 --> 2:25:40.120 And and that's in you know. There's one of the 2:25:40.160 --> 2:25:43.680 gun YouTubers that I like to push people towards it 2:25:44.280 --> 2:25:46.200 for this kind of stuff is a guy named Paul Harrold, 2:25:46.240 --> 2:25:49.040 who is certainly more on the conservative side, but who 2:25:49.080 --> 2:25:51.640 actually killed somebody in a self defense and went through 2:25:51.640 --> 2:25:54.000 the whole legal process afterwards. And he has a couple 2:25:54.040 --> 2:25:55.800 of videos where he talks about it, and he gives 2:25:56.240 --> 2:25:59.720 I think pretty good advice on that. That is that 2:25:59.879 --> 2:26:02.960 is completely without ego because it was a nightmare for him. 2:26:03.000 --> 2:26:04.960 It was the worst experience of his life, which is 2:26:05.040 --> 2:26:06.520 what it's going to be if you ever have to 2:26:06.600 --> 2:26:09.920 use a gun, and that should be like, that should 2:26:09.920 --> 2:26:12.000 be the top of your that should be the top 2:26:12.040 --> 2:26:13.680 of your mindset. You know, I've been in this situation 2:26:13.760 --> 2:26:15.920 a couple of times at protests where like someone pulls 2:26:15.959 --> 2:26:18.720 a knife and starts lunging at people and I have 2:26:18.840 --> 2:26:21.920 a gun and I'm fifteen feet away, and I never 2:26:22.160 --> 2:26:26.600 drew in part because it never quite crossed that line 2:26:26.959 --> 2:26:30.480 for me, and I knew that giving people the chance 2:26:30.560 --> 2:26:35.000 to deescalate was vastly more important than um introducing a 2:26:35.120 --> 2:26:38.720 second weapon to the situation immediately. And if things had 2:26:38.720 --> 2:26:41.400 gone differently, perhaps I would feel differently about my choices 2:26:41.440 --> 2:26:44.640 in that moment. But um, they didn't and nobody got hurt. 2:26:44.640 --> 2:26:46.640 And that's always the best case scenario, even if it's 2:26:47.240 --> 2:26:51.760 somebody you really dislike who is who is threatening people 2:26:51.800 --> 2:26:54.960 with a weapon. I swear that happened up in Olympia 2:26:55.080 --> 2:26:58.680 like two weeks ago. Yeah, Well, the shooting in Olympia, 2:26:58.840 --> 2:27:01.200 which was a guy named Tye Me who got shot UM, 2:27:01.440 --> 2:27:04.560 and there's video of it. It's absolutely not illegally justified 2:27:04.640 --> 2:27:09.360 shoot for sure. Like, yeah he was he was like 2:27:09.480 --> 2:27:12.800 forty feet away, you know. Um, yeah, but he's really tall. 2:27:13.360 --> 2:27:15.959 He is big, he is I think that counts for something. 2:27:16.760 --> 2:27:19.200 He was tall, he was tall, he was chasing them, 2:27:19.240 --> 2:27:22.800 he was armed. Um. Not making a moral case here. 2:27:23.600 --> 2:27:25.680 I think legally they would have had a trouble had 2:27:25.760 --> 2:27:28.680 they stayed around. Now, of course they've got I believe 2:27:28.720 --> 2:27:31.240 they've been arrested at this point. Oh have they? I 2:27:31.600 --> 2:27:37.200 just didn't think so. So sorry. I don't mean to 2:27:37.280 --> 2:27:40.440 crash it for a second. I think I saw our 2:27:40.760 --> 2:27:47.320 best friend Andy post something about it three days ago. 2:27:47.400 --> 2:27:51.000 Three Yeah, okay, so they did. They did arrest the guy. Yeah. 2:27:51.120 --> 2:27:54.360 And it's you know, it's another thing if you, um, 2:27:55.920 --> 2:27:58.000 if you feel if if you're involved in like a 2:27:58.080 --> 2:28:02.160 shooting that you feel is a just defined legal shooting. Um, 2:28:02.480 --> 2:28:05.240 you don't. You don't leave the scene. Uh. And in fact, 2:28:05.320 --> 2:28:07.240 one of the better videos you'll get on like what 2:28:07.440 --> 2:28:10.360 to do and uh, this guy's life has gone to 2:28:10.400 --> 2:28:12.400 ship because of the political nature of your shooting. But 2:28:12.440 --> 2:28:15.520 the guy in um in Denver who shot that dude 2:28:15.560 --> 2:28:20.080 at a protest, the pinker, I'll tell you, you know, no, 2:28:20.240 --> 2:28:21.880 no matter what you want to say about whether or 2:28:21.920 --> 2:28:24.040 not it was a good shoot. Yeah, that that he 2:28:24.160 --> 2:28:27.880 dropped that fucking guy. I mean he dropped head down 2:28:27.959 --> 2:28:34.520 on his knees. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. You know, again, 2:28:34.760 --> 2:28:36.760 the court case is not settled out, so I don't 2:28:36.760 --> 2:28:38.520 know if that guy's story is going to end happily. 2:28:38.560 --> 2:28:40.640 But in terms of if you want to not get 2:28:40.720 --> 2:28:43.320 shot yourself and you want to have the maximum chance 2:28:43.360 --> 2:28:45.840 of defending yourself if you have to shoot somebody in 2:28:45.879 --> 2:28:49.320 a situation that's legally justified, what that guy did after 2:28:49.440 --> 2:28:52.960 the shoot is how to handle it. Um. And I 2:28:53.040 --> 2:28:54.800 mean the evidence for that is he did not get shot. 2:28:54.959 --> 2:28:57.640 And obviously your mileage with that's gonna vary depending on 2:28:57.720 --> 2:29:02.959 your skin color. Uh yeah, that's actor. Yeah. In terms 2:29:03.000 --> 2:29:07.040 of actual training, people can like pay for if they 2:29:07.160 --> 2:29:08.920 if they want to take that step, which I think 2:29:09.080 --> 2:29:12.080 is a good idea. Um, who do you do. Do 2:29:12.120 --> 2:29:14.560 you have kind of like broad recommendations for how people 2:29:14.640 --> 2:29:16.680 can know if some things you know, because there's this 2:29:16.800 --> 2:29:19.120 is certainly a space where there's a lot of grifters 2:29:19.160 --> 2:29:27.240 and whatnot. Um, yeah, I mean most of the beginner level, Uh, 2:29:28.160 --> 2:29:31.960 how to fight with a gun. Classes are two to 2:29:32.080 --> 2:29:34.760 three days long like that. That's a good starting point 2:29:35.120 --> 2:29:38.119 is the fact that you're going to pay probably three 2:29:38.200 --> 2:29:42.600 to five hundred dollars per day, um, and it's going 2:29:42.720 --> 2:29:47.160 to be multiple days long. You can't because you're going 2:29:47.600 --> 2:29:50.840 from a baseline. You know, they know you already know 2:29:50.959 --> 2:29:53.880 how to point and shoot a gun, but they're going 2:29:53.920 --> 2:29:56.840 to go up for everything on how to draw, how 2:29:56.920 --> 2:29:59.880 to move, how to reload. Um. You're gonna have some 2:30:00.040 --> 2:30:04.160 classroom time going over their specific safety instructions and stuff 2:30:04.240 --> 2:30:07.840 like that. UM. But anything you can do in one 2:30:07.920 --> 2:30:11.840 day or four hours or forty rounds or whatever, it 2:30:11.959 --> 2:30:15.960 isn't going to cut it. Um. You need to go 2:30:16.400 --> 2:30:19.160 get something, and you need to listen because they're going 2:30:19.200 --> 2:30:21.200 to ask you to do things that might not be 2:30:21.680 --> 2:30:24.680 the way you want to do it. You might say, yeah, 2:30:24.800 --> 2:30:26.600 that's not the way my dad taught me how to 2:30:26.800 --> 2:30:33.080 reload a handgun. UM. A good example is actually UM 2:30:34.040 --> 2:30:37.880 tactical Response in Tennessee. They a lot of people hate them, 2:30:38.200 --> 2:30:40.760 but they have a very specific way that they say, 2:30:40.920 --> 2:30:43.400 everyone reloads this way in our class. You know, you 2:30:43.440 --> 2:30:45.920 put it in and you sling shot the slide um. 2:30:46.640 --> 2:30:48.800 And and people will argue and go, well I want 2:30:48.800 --> 2:30:50.720 to just press the button. Well the button is cool 2:30:50.760 --> 2:30:52.560 and all, but we want you to sling shot the slide. 2:30:52.600 --> 2:30:56.920 Just do it for this class. Um. Sorry I got 2:30:56.959 --> 2:30:59.760 a little off topic there. No, no, no, that's a 2:30:59.800 --> 2:31:05.360 good point too, because I mean and listen, um. And 2:31:05.480 --> 2:31:08.600 you don't have to take everything away. You you take 2:31:08.720 --> 2:31:12.360 what you saw as good usable information and merge that 2:31:12.560 --> 2:31:15.480 with what you already know, maybe throw away some of 2:31:15.560 --> 2:31:17.200 what you already know when you've got this ball a 2:31:17.280 --> 2:31:23.120 goo that you can work with h for practice. Um yeah, yeah, 2:31:23.720 --> 2:31:26.720 and yeah it is. And to that point when you're 2:31:26.720 --> 2:31:30.480 talking about like training, one of the differences between handguns 2:31:30.520 --> 2:31:33.000 and rifles, Like all all shooting, as always there's a 2:31:33.040 --> 2:31:35.279 degree of perishable nous to it, but shooting a handgun 2:31:35.400 --> 2:31:38.600 is a much more perishable skill than shooting a rifle. Um. 2:31:39.240 --> 2:31:41.680 And it's it's so if you're going to be armed 2:31:41.720 --> 2:31:45.040 with a handgun, UM, it really behooves you to take 2:31:45.480 --> 2:31:49.400 to train, you know, because you're only as good as 2:31:49.440 --> 2:31:53.080 how often you've been out there. Really um and having 2:31:53.120 --> 2:31:55.920 a state a good foundation, like taking some real professional 2:31:56.000 --> 2:31:58.200 classes will help a lot in that as opposed to 2:31:58.280 --> 2:31:59.879 just kind of going out to the range every now 2:32:00.000 --> 2:32:03.920 and again. But yeah, um, let's talk at the s. 2:32:04.160 --> 2:32:06.840 The last little bit of this here about kind of 2:32:06.920 --> 2:32:09.600 the gun that's always on the tip of everybody's tongue 2:32:09.640 --> 2:32:13.439 when you start talking about being armed and armed self defenses. 2:32:13.600 --> 2:32:16.760 You know, the A R platform. Um, it's a gun 2:32:16.840 --> 2:32:20.000 with a lot of baggage, a tremendous amount of cultural baggage, 2:32:20.080 --> 2:32:22.560 and it's it has become vastly more than just a 2:32:22.640 --> 2:32:27.000 firearm in our culture. Um what a what? What do 2:32:27.040 --> 2:32:29.480 you what? Are kind of? Because I am a big 2:32:29.560 --> 2:32:33.000 advocate of people who who are open to being armed 2:32:33.400 --> 2:32:36.039 getting an A R platform. I think it's a great 2:32:36.080 --> 2:32:38.800 gun to learn. I mean it goes yeah, it goes 2:32:38.920 --> 2:32:42.360 bang really well almost every time, as long as it's 2:32:42.400 --> 2:32:47.880 from a reputable manufacturer. Um, despite what some people say, 2:32:48.280 --> 2:32:53.440 they're very reliable. Um, they're easy to clean. Literally as 2:32:53.520 --> 2:32:55.920 long as you keep them lubricated. Even in the field, 2:32:55.959 --> 2:32:58.360 you keep it lubricated, it will just just keep banging 2:32:58.400 --> 2:33:02.640 out rounds and it functions in you know, we talked 2:33:02.680 --> 2:33:05.000 about this during the episodes on like you know, food 2:33:05.120 --> 2:33:08.600 storage and in and whatnot, Like where there's A. There's 2:33:08.640 --> 2:33:12.120 the there's the cheap version. I like stuff where there's 2:33:12.240 --> 2:33:15.120 there's the cheap version that works, and there's the expensive 2:33:15.200 --> 2:33:17.640 version that works. And you you have that with an 2:33:17.680 --> 2:33:20.240 A R. You can get a very inexpensive ARE and 2:33:20.360 --> 2:33:22.720 you can you can replace every part of that ARE 2:33:22.800 --> 2:33:25.000 over the next five years and have a six thousand 2:33:25.040 --> 2:33:29.240 dollar gun. I I did um minor price checking last 2:33:29.320 --> 2:33:30.880 night because I was like, you know, I haven't checked 2:33:30.920 --> 2:33:34.240 the price the retail prices on stuff right, so in 2:33:34.400 --> 2:33:37.760 like your your budget tier normal price that that's out 2:33:37.840 --> 2:33:40.760 right Now, you've got like a Ruger, a R five 2:33:40.840 --> 2:33:44.120 five six, there's seven hundred bucks. That's that's dirt cheap, 2:33:44.200 --> 2:33:47.160 and it's gonna go bang, just in the same red gun. Yeah. 2:33:47.160 --> 2:33:49.360 I have a friend who who's who's a R is 2:33:49.400 --> 2:33:51.840 a RE five five six and they're very solid. Yeah, 2:33:51.959 --> 2:33:54.560 they just they go bang every time. You're not going 2:33:54.640 --> 2:33:56.840 to break up, um, I mean, as long as you 2:33:56.840 --> 2:33:58.360 don't use it like a baseball bat, you're not going 2:33:58.400 --> 2:34:01.640 to break up, especially now that the Russian steelcase dammo 2:34:01.720 --> 2:34:07.040 has been banned. But then like the the other end 2:34:07.080 --> 2:34:10.640 of the spectrum is you got a sick right, Yeah, 2:34:10.680 --> 2:34:13.080 I've got a couple. Okay, so you know what the 2:34:13.200 --> 2:34:16.800 rattler is. Oh, yeah, that's a fun one. I do 2:34:16.959 --> 2:34:19.280 not own a rattler, but they are they are cute. 2:34:19.560 --> 2:34:24.720 Do you know how much? Well, first off, the rattler 2:34:24.840 --> 2:34:27.880 it's a short, bare old five five six. It's not 2:34:28.160 --> 2:34:31.240 really an air of fifteen, but like technically it kind 2:34:31.280 --> 2:34:37.280 of is. Yeah, um, and it's well, how about this, 2:34:37.400 --> 2:34:39.600 how much do you think that the rattler costs? Right now? 2:34:39.680 --> 2:34:43.320 Don't don't go look it, just just say probably bucks 2:34:43.360 --> 2:34:50.560 would be my guess. Now it's uh now, I actually 2:34:50.600 --> 2:34:53.560 put it in my category of honorable mentioned slash meme 2:34:54.200 --> 2:34:58.800 because it's kind of a meme. Gun. Uh it's so tiny, um, 2:34:59.040 --> 2:35:00.920 but I don't want to get out with it. But 2:35:01.080 --> 2:35:04.080 that's kind of the spread we were talking about, which is, 2:35:04.280 --> 2:35:06.680 you know, you can get a seven d dollar gun 2:35:07.280 --> 2:35:10.760 and it'll go bang the exact same way as the rattler. Um, 2:35:11.480 --> 2:35:15.840 it fires the same bullet um, and you can build 2:35:15.920 --> 2:35:18.080 up to something not like a rattler, but you can 2:35:18.120 --> 2:35:22.200 build up to um a bunch of novesky parts. You 2:35:22.240 --> 2:35:25.440 can throw a bunch of novesky parts into that ruger 2:35:25.600 --> 2:35:28.760 lower and upper that you bought and build a really 2:35:29.080 --> 2:35:34.960 awesome gun that will be you know, nine percent reliable. Yeah, yeah, 2:35:35.600 --> 2:35:38.360 and you can you know, I think generally if you're 2:35:38.400 --> 2:35:41.000 buying like a again, you're you're getting kind of a 2:35:41.800 --> 2:35:45.160 bargain basement. Are one of the first things that that 2:35:45.280 --> 2:35:47.480 it's going to behoove you to replaces the optics. You know, 2:35:47.520 --> 2:35:50.600 it'll probably start with ion sights. But these don't even 2:35:50.680 --> 2:35:54.000 come with anything. Yeah, usually they come with nothing on 2:35:54.120 --> 2:35:55.720 him and you have to stick the irons or you 2:35:55.760 --> 2:35:58.160 stick a reflex site. There's a whole world of um 2:35:59.080 --> 2:36:00.800 of optics. And I think one of the actually one 2:36:00.800 --> 2:36:04.000 of the websites I recommend people check into if you're 2:36:04.040 --> 2:36:06.080 looking and kind of reading up on this and and 2:36:06.200 --> 2:36:10.240 doing your due diligence is Pew Pew tactical um. They 2:36:10.320 --> 2:36:13.360 do not written from like a super you know, chutty 2:36:13.600 --> 2:36:15.879 or whatever. Like you get a lot of very political 2:36:16.320 --> 2:36:18.640 gun websites that may have some good information that are 2:36:18.840 --> 2:36:21.480 frustrating to read. They're not that way. They're written you know, 2:36:21.640 --> 2:36:25.040 four people who are not super aggro about guns, but 2:36:25.120 --> 2:36:27.280 who are are are interested in guns, and you can 2:36:27.320 --> 2:36:29.520 find really good reviews on stuff. But as a general rule, 2:36:30.240 --> 2:36:32.840 modern optics beeed iron sights every day of the like 2:36:33.360 --> 2:36:35.280 they prefer I I and I do in some case 2:36:35.760 --> 2:36:38.440 on my a case, I vastly prefer using irons, But 2:36:38.520 --> 2:36:40.320 that would never be the weapon I would pick if 2:36:40.760 --> 2:36:43.200 I was in a situation where I needed a weapon, 2:36:43.320 --> 2:36:47.680 you know. Yeah, I mean I think everyone should learn 2:36:47.959 --> 2:36:53.200 how to use iron sights, absolutely, But if I can 2:36:53.320 --> 2:36:56.320 hand someone a four D and fifty dollar aim point 2:36:56.400 --> 2:37:00.440 pro which which is uh the budget for version of 2:37:00.560 --> 2:37:04.360 a high end optic, if I can put a four 2:37:04.440 --> 2:37:07.280 under and fifty optic with the mountain everything onto a 2:37:07.440 --> 2:37:11.160 rifle and just go, hey, just just put the dot 2:37:11.200 --> 2:37:15.160 on what you want to shoot, You're done. Um. Now, 2:37:15.240 --> 2:37:17.560 there's a lot that goes past that, but we got 2:37:17.720 --> 2:37:21.320 rid of the entire proper site alignment and all that. 2:37:21.440 --> 2:37:23.039 They just got to put the dot on the box 2:37:23.120 --> 2:37:27.560 and squeeze. Yeah. Yeah, I mean even even the Marine Corps, 2:37:27.920 --> 2:37:32.040 famous for for fielding marksman, has gone we're going to 2:37:32.160 --> 2:37:36.400 switch over to optic based training. Yeah, they're just I 2:37:36.440 --> 2:37:38.680 mean you look at even guys in like id Lib Province, 2:37:38.760 --> 2:37:41.200 which is like one of the rebel provinces in Syria 2:37:41.320 --> 2:37:45.240 that's been persistently under siege for most of the last decade. Um, 2:37:45.959 --> 2:37:49.199 they're all using fancy optics now like that generally alf 2:37:49.280 --> 2:37:52.440 and Ali Baba versions of like brand optics. But it 2:37:52.520 --> 2:37:54.560 does the trick, you know. I mean it's a it's 2:37:54.600 --> 2:37:57.080 a sig Romeo that never got the role market for 2:37:57.160 --> 2:38:00.320 cig on it. Yeah, exactly, and they paid a hundred 2:38:00.320 --> 2:38:05.400 bucks instead. Yeah. Um, alright, Well, I think that's most 2:38:05.600 --> 2:38:08.200 of what we can responsibly get through. I do want 2:38:08.200 --> 2:38:10.320 to end on the caveat we started with this with, 2:38:10.520 --> 2:38:14.520 which is that um deciding whether or not and and 2:38:15.240 --> 2:38:19.760 I we advocate, uh, firearms is an option both as 2:38:19.800 --> 2:38:22.480 a legal option and something that can be for your 2:38:22.520 --> 2:38:26.240 community and for you as an individual potentially practical. I 2:38:26.320 --> 2:38:29.360 don't blanket advise people to buy guns. I think in 2:38:29.440 --> 2:38:32.440 many cases it's going to be counterproductive. I think you 2:38:32.480 --> 2:38:34.920 should not own a firearm. Again, if you're someone who 2:38:35.440 --> 2:38:39.120 struggles with suicidal ideation, they they can be a very 2:38:39.200 --> 2:38:41.199 dangerous thing to have in your home if that's something 2:38:41.320 --> 2:38:44.160 that that you battle with. I do think that they 2:38:44.200 --> 2:38:47.360 can be owned and used very responsibly. In addition to 2:38:47.600 --> 2:38:50.880 I think shooting can be a really enjoyable pastime um, 2:38:51.040 --> 2:38:53.080 and I think more than anything, when a whole bunch 2:38:53.160 --> 2:38:56.120 of people who are talking about killing you all have guns, 2:38:56.520 --> 2:38:58.480 it can behoove you to own a firearm as well 2:38:58.959 --> 2:39:01.760 if you're a member of one of those communities. So 2:39:02.240 --> 2:39:05.160 please don't take any of this. As Robert Evans says, 2:39:05.280 --> 2:39:07.480 everyone go buy a gun. But if you're going to 2:39:07.560 --> 2:39:10.560 buy a gun, there's there's a right way and a 2:39:10.600 --> 2:39:13.520 responsible way to go about it, and there's you know, 2:39:13.920 --> 2:39:16.240 picking up a random twelve gauge and shoving it under 2:39:16.240 --> 2:39:21.400 your bed, which is no more shotguns for home defense. Yeah, 2:39:21.879 --> 2:39:26.160 they're not. They're not ideal. Um, yeah, I mean we can, 2:39:26.240 --> 2:39:29.280 we can talk about over penetration and stuff, but yeah, 2:39:29.640 --> 2:39:34.520 I mean just being able to move lead in a 2:39:34.600 --> 2:39:39.760 direction they're very bad at. Yeah. Um yeah, yeah, they're 2:39:39.800 --> 2:39:42.160 they're They're not They're not. I mean again, something like 2:39:42.440 --> 2:39:46.080 uh an a R or a pistol caliber carbine is 2:39:46.240 --> 2:39:48.760 in a lot of situations going to be a much 2:39:48.800 --> 2:39:52.000 more practical and and have less risk of hitting stuff 2:39:52.040 --> 2:39:55.200 you don't want to hit necessarily. Get the high point? 2:39:55.480 --> 2:40:01.320 Um yeat yeah, they eat cannon. Well, we'll discuss that 2:40:01.400 --> 2:40:04.440 on our whole episode of about high points. So you've 2:40:04.440 --> 2:40:12.320 shot yourself in the dick the high points story. All right, well, um, 2:40:13.000 --> 2:40:15.120 do you wanna Paul, you've got any got anything to 2:40:15.200 --> 2:40:19.200 plug before we roll out here? Uh? Give food to 2:40:20.280 --> 2:40:24.320 homeless people? Well houseless, houseless, I think is yeah. Um. 2:40:25.000 --> 2:40:26.960 And if you're in an area with a based d 2:40:27.200 --> 2:40:30.039 S A, joined the d S I and then vote 2:40:30.080 --> 2:40:34.960 out the ship loads. That's what's happening here in Orlando. Um. 2:40:36.280 --> 2:40:43.680 But yeah, embrace anarchy. Well, I'm Robert Evans, this is 2:40:43.720 --> 2:40:46.840 gonna podcast. And uh and remember as we sail out, 2:40:47.160 --> 2:40:49.600 there's a reason the episode talking about guns came after 2:40:49.680 --> 2:41:02.720 the episodes talking about storing and growing food. When P. T. 2:41:02.840 --> 2:41:05.800 Barnum's Great American Museum burned to the ground in eighteen 2:41:05.879 --> 2:41:09.119 sixty five, what rose from its ashes would change the world. 2:41:09.879 --> 2:41:13.400 Welcome to Grim and Mild presents an ongoing journey into 2:41:13.480 --> 2:41:17.959 the strange, the unusual, and the fascinating. For our inaugural season, 2:41:18.000 --> 2:41:20.400 will be giving you a backstage tour of the always 2:41:20.480 --> 2:41:25.240 complex and often misunderstood cultural artifact that is the American 2:41:25.320 --> 2:41:28.040 Side Show. So come along as we visit the shadowy 2:41:28.160 --> 2:41:30.800 corners of the stage and learn about the people who 2:41:30.879 --> 2:41:32.960 were at the center of it all, in a place 2:41:33.040 --> 2:41:36.840 where spectacle was king. We will soon discover there's always 2:41:36.920 --> 2:41:39.879 more to the story than meets the eye. So step 2:41:40.000 --> 2:41:43.080 right up and get in line. Listen to Grim and 2:41:43.160 --> 2:41:46.480 Mild Presents now on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 2:41:46.640 --> 2:41:50.200 or wherever you listen to podcasts. Learn more over at 2:41:50.240 --> 2:41:55.600 Grim and Mild dot com slash Presents. I'm Tanya sam 2:41:55.760 --> 2:41:58.640 post of the Money Moves Podcast powered by Greenwood. This 2:41:58.879 --> 2:42:01.200 daily podcast will help give you the keys to the 2:42:01.280 --> 2:42:05.120 Kingdom of financial stability, wealth and abundance. With celebrity guests 2:42:05.160 --> 2:42:09.119 like Rick Ross, Amanda Sells, Angela Ye, Roland, Martin, JB. Smooth, 2:42:09.160 --> 2:42:11.320 and Terrell Owens. Tune in to learn how to turn 2:42:11.440 --> 2:42:17.760 liabilities into assets and make your money moves. Subscribe to 2:42:17.840 --> 2:42:20.040 The Money Moves Podcast powered by Greenland on the I 2:42:20.200 --> 2:42:23.120 Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts, and 2:42:23.240 --> 2:42:31.640 make sure you leave a review. Welcome back to the 2:42:32.840 --> 2:42:35.720 It could Happen here. Yeah, that's the podcast we're doing 2:42:35.840 --> 2:42:38.520 right now. It's a podcast about how things are kind 2:42:38.520 --> 2:42:41.000 of falling apart, but maybe they don't need to, or 2:42:41.000 --> 2:42:43.280 at least not as much as they have. Then I'm 2:42:43.400 --> 2:42:48.119 Robert Evans with me as often is my co host Garrison. 2:42:48.280 --> 2:42:53.160 Davis Garrison, UM say something inciting to the audience. I'm 2:42:53.200 --> 2:42:55.920 on my second cup of coffee. Yeah, because it is. 2:42:56.000 --> 2:42:57.960 It is the early morning for you, by which I 2:42:58.000 --> 2:43:02.320 mean to eleven in the afternoon. UM, also with us today. 2:43:02.400 --> 2:43:07.039 Our guest for this episode is David van Dooson. Uh. David, 2:43:07.520 --> 2:43:10.480 you are the president of the State Labor Council for 2:43:10.560 --> 2:43:13.760 the Vermont a f l c I O and there's 2:43:13.879 --> 2:43:16.200 a bunch of stuff that's interesting about your organization. Will 2:43:16.240 --> 2:43:18.040 dig into it in more detail in a second, but 2:43:18.120 --> 2:43:19.680 first I just want to say hello and thank you 2:43:19.720 --> 2:43:24.160 for being on the shower now, David, the big thing, 2:43:24.240 --> 2:43:26.320 I mean, the Vermont a f l c I has 2:43:26.360 --> 2:43:28.560 been in the news a couple of times recently. The 2:43:28.600 --> 2:43:31.840 most recent one is y'all issued a statement making you 2:43:32.400 --> 2:43:35.040 the coverage I've seen has said the first labor organization 2:43:35.080 --> 2:43:38.680 in the US to like support gun rights. I mean 2:43:39.000 --> 2:43:40.560 like as is stated in a lot of the stuff 2:43:40.560 --> 2:43:42.760 you've put out, like Blair Mountain. There's a long history 2:43:42.840 --> 2:43:46.720 of labor organizations making use of the Second Amendment. But UM, 2:43:47.520 --> 2:43:50.680 I certainly haven't heard of a labor organization stating at 2:43:50.720 --> 2:43:53.280 the way you did, which is basically the case you've made, 2:43:53.360 --> 2:43:58.000 is because far right fascist organizations are so heavily armed 2:43:58.040 --> 2:44:00.720 and any gut all of the gun control policies being 2:44:00.760 --> 2:44:04.959 heavily debated, at least among liberals, are likely to ignore 2:44:05.080 --> 2:44:08.520 those people while restricting the ability of working class and 2:44:08.560 --> 2:44:12.480 particularly marginalized people to arm themselves. Um, you do not 2:44:12.680 --> 2:44:15.959 support those regulations because you support the rights of those 2:44:15.959 --> 2:44:19.160 groups to be able to defend themselves from fascists. That 2:44:19.280 --> 2:44:22.440 more or less correct. Well, Look, we believe in the 2:44:22.600 --> 2:44:28.040 right of the people to defend themselves, but our policies, 2:44:28.080 --> 2:44:31.640 including that one, are not adopted by the elected leadership, 2:44:31.800 --> 2:44:35.600 including myself. They're adopted by our members. We believe very 2:44:35.720 --> 2:44:40.240 firmly and democracy participaty democracy. So with issues like this, 2:44:40.360 --> 2:44:42.920 we're happy to bring into our convention, which we recently did, 2:44:43.600 --> 2:44:47.680 and facilitate a full debate on the issue. So that's 2:44:47.680 --> 2:44:50.119 exactly what we did. We talked about it, our rank 2:44:50.200 --> 2:44:53.080 and file members talked about it. They made amendments, They 2:44:53.200 --> 2:44:57.800 debated passionately different sides of the issue in a respectful way, 2:44:58.440 --> 2:45:01.840 in a productive way. A number of amendments were made, 2:45:01.920 --> 2:45:05.240 that were adopted, and then ultimately the resolution was passed 2:45:05.320 --> 2:45:08.959 with over a two thirds majority of our recopil delegance 2:45:09.000 --> 2:45:12.040 in favor. So that's where we are right now. Yeah, 2:45:12.120 --> 2:45:15.199 I've read a bit about this, including you know, there's 2:45:15.240 --> 2:45:17.880 been some critiques from a representative from the a f T, 2:45:18.080 --> 2:45:21.000 which is the local teachers union. But there was also 2:45:21.040 --> 2:45:22.600 a member of the Vermont a f l C i 2:45:22.720 --> 2:45:25.920 oh who essentially stated, like, hey, I didn't actually agree 2:45:26.000 --> 2:45:28.360 with this amendment but or with this resolution, but it 2:45:28.480 --> 2:45:32.039 was made democratically, and like I I support the process 2:45:32.120 --> 2:45:33.520 by which it was done, which is one of the 2:45:33.600 --> 2:45:36.120 things I think is it is so interesting here that 2:45:36.200 --> 2:45:39.120 this isn't like um UM a kind of a group 2:45:39.160 --> 2:45:42.560 of activists at the top making declaration declarations. This is 2:45:42.560 --> 2:45:47.400 an organization that is really um dedicated itself increasingly to 2:45:48.160 --> 2:45:50.200 I think a kind of progressive ism that we we 2:45:50.320 --> 2:45:52.440 haven't really seen in an organized way, and a lot 2:45:52.520 --> 2:45:56.640 of the American labor movement until recently. Well, when you're 2:45:56.640 --> 2:45:59.360 talking about democracy in the labor I mean we could 2:45:59.400 --> 2:46:02.360 be just as well here about democracies in society as such. 2:46:03.720 --> 2:46:07.480 The fact is is that organized labor today is not 2:46:07.680 --> 2:46:10.600 particularly democratic, and we're looking to change that, and our 2:46:10.680 --> 2:46:13.520 world is not particularly democratic now. The vision that we 2:46:13.680 --> 2:46:17.959 hold our slate are progressive slate called United, is one 2:46:18.040 --> 2:46:22.200 where we increase the means for direct producerary democracy, both 2:46:22.280 --> 2:46:25.680 within labor and within our society. So of course we're 2:46:25.680 --> 2:46:27.200 going to go to our members and our rank and 2:46:27.320 --> 2:46:29.640 file and ask them to debate the issues of our 2:46:29.760 --> 2:46:32.960 day and ultimately to make a decision on these major 2:46:33.040 --> 2:46:37.440 political and social issues. This was one we again, we 2:46:37.600 --> 2:46:40.400 do believe that people need to have a right, the 2:46:40.440 --> 2:46:42.920 working class needs have a right to defend itself, and 2:46:43.080 --> 2:46:46.640 we can't bury our head in the stand. Anybody that's 2:46:46.680 --> 2:46:49.400 even followed a little bit of the news lately will 2:46:49.480 --> 2:46:56.400 know that between November up until late January, we were 2:46:56.640 --> 2:47:01.680 one general shy of a coup in this country, in 2:47:01.840 --> 2:47:05.280 the upside down world that we're now living in. It 2:47:05.440 --> 2:47:07.400 was because of the joint chiefs of Staff and the 2:47:07.440 --> 2:47:09.840 head of the c i A not supporting a coup 2:47:10.520 --> 2:47:14.200 that a neo fascist cou didn't totally in fold materialized 2:47:14.240 --> 2:47:16.840 in a more mature form. Let that sink inform it 2:47:17.200 --> 2:47:20.240 our democracy, or the vestiges of the democracy we have 2:47:20.360 --> 2:47:25.120 in the United States right now is precarious. Uh. They 2:47:25.360 --> 2:47:28.119 just because they've been there for two hundred years doesn't 2:47:28.120 --> 2:47:30.800 mean they're gonna be there tomorrow. The new playbook from 2:47:31.200 --> 2:47:35.720 an increasingly far right Republican Party is to limit as 2:47:35.879 --> 2:47:39.240 much as they possibly could let people's right to vote 2:47:39.520 --> 2:47:41.680 and to participate in the political process. We see this 2:47:41.760 --> 2:47:44.920 happening in Texas, We see this happening in Georgia. We 2:47:44.959 --> 2:47:48.200 see this happening in Florida. We see this happening in Red. Uh. 2:47:48.560 --> 2:47:51.200 I shouldn't say red, but I should say Republican states 2:47:51.280 --> 2:47:56.680 all throughout the US. So these are dangerous, dangerous times, right, 2:47:57.080 --> 2:48:00.600 so dangerous that our top generals were trying to decide 2:48:00.640 --> 2:48:04.400 what their position would be and make plans in case 2:48:05.280 --> 2:48:08.040 a coup, a full encoup, not just a hint of 2:48:08.080 --> 2:48:11.440 a coup, came into being within the last year of 2:48:11.560 --> 2:48:15.600 our republic. Now, given those realities and giving the rise 2:48:15.680 --> 2:48:18.920 of the far right, given that our former president Donald 2:48:18.959 --> 2:48:22.520 Trump told the neo fascist Proud Boys to stand what 2:48:22.640 --> 2:48:26.000 did you say, stand back and stand by? Yeah, that's right. 2:48:27.000 --> 2:48:30.160 And now at least they claimed that forty thousand members 2:48:30.200 --> 2:48:33.640 around the United States and they are armed. Uh, you know, 2:48:33.760 --> 2:48:36.720 we can't just rest in our laurelds and and pretend 2:48:37.040 --> 2:48:39.480 that the state as such is going to keep us safe. 2:48:40.080 --> 2:48:44.720 So it seems prudent and reasonable for us to have 2:48:44.840 --> 2:48:48.400 taken the action and say we defend our constitutional right 2:48:49.320 --> 2:48:53.840 to bear arms as intended to defend our communities. They 2:48:53.920 --> 2:48:56.800 defend our unions, to defend the working class. And one 2:48:56.840 --> 2:48:58.800 of the things that because we were just talking about 2:48:58.840 --> 2:49:03.119 the the coup that very nearly got pulled off your organization, 2:49:03.200 --> 2:49:05.680 at least in UH I believe it was right after 2:49:05.800 --> 2:49:09.160 the election, issued a statement that if the president illegally 2:49:09.920 --> 2:49:12.879 attempted to stay in power, the former president, you would 2:49:13.160 --> 2:49:16.119 participate in an attempt to help organize a general strike. 2:49:16.240 --> 2:49:18.960 Now that's something we talk about a lot on this show. 2:49:19.040 --> 2:49:21.480 We're big believers in the potential of a general strike. 2:49:21.560 --> 2:49:25.960 Were also big believers that the kind of general strike 2:49:26.080 --> 2:49:28.600 that we need to i don't know, potentially get climate 2:49:28.680 --> 2:49:31.120 justice and a number of other major things is an 2:49:31.200 --> 2:49:33.640 undertaking on par with the space race. You know, you're 2:49:33.640 --> 2:49:37.440 talking about an enormous task. I'm really interested in picking 2:49:37.480 --> 2:49:41.000 your brain on when we talk about a national general strike, 2:49:41.520 --> 2:49:44.360 what is the kind of infrastructure that's actually necessary to 2:49:44.440 --> 2:49:46.240 make something like that feasible, because there's a lot of 2:49:46.280 --> 2:49:48.320 talk on like Twitter and Facebook of like, let's just 2:49:48.360 --> 2:49:51.360 do a general strike on this day in October. I 2:49:53.000 --> 2:49:55.680 six months doesn't go by, as President c I O 2:49:55.920 --> 2:49:58.320 ver month where I don't left this group of some 2:49:58.480 --> 2:50:01.120 kind of contact with me to endorse their general strike, right, 2:50:01.720 --> 2:50:04.600 going to shut down on data X And it's yet 2:50:04.640 --> 2:50:07.760 to happen, at least in our country. So that's a 2:50:07.800 --> 2:50:12.840 great question. A couple of things. When we voted, and 2:50:12.920 --> 2:50:15.400 again this wasn't a decision of myself and the leadership. 2:50:15.480 --> 2:50:17.640 This was a decision we went back to the rank 2:50:17.680 --> 2:50:20.160 and file with to our to one of our conventions 2:50:21.879 --> 2:50:25.200 of our delegates, after our long debate, voted to authorize 2:50:25.240 --> 2:50:28.040 the elected deecutive Board to call for a general strike 2:50:28.200 --> 2:50:30.040 in the event of a coup, in the event that 2:50:30.080 --> 2:50:34.560 there wasn't transfer power on January as the constitution requires. 2:50:35.720 --> 2:50:40.040 It was our feeling that in that very specific space 2:50:40.120 --> 2:50:45.160 and time, in that very specific political climate, um we 2:50:45.360 --> 2:50:48.560 would be able to call for such a strike and 2:50:48.879 --> 2:50:51.120 with a serious amount of work and a serious amount 2:50:51.120 --> 2:50:53.680 of organizing, pull that off and make that happen, and 2:50:53.760 --> 2:50:55.440 the thought was if we could do it in Vermont 2:50:55.480 --> 2:50:58.040 because the call was a further Mont Channel strike, then 2:50:58.120 --> 2:51:00.800 it could spread to other states, which would be absolutely 2:51:00.920 --> 2:51:05.360 necessary if there was if our country descended into a 2:51:05.440 --> 2:51:09.960 fascist dictatorship of some sort. But generally speaking, when we 2:51:10.040 --> 2:51:12.119 talk about climate issues, when we talk about the fact 2:51:12.200 --> 2:51:14.840 that millions of Americans don't have healthcare or aren't paid 2:51:14.959 --> 2:51:17.680 liv wages, all of these issues are at least these 2:51:17.760 --> 2:51:21.240 issues together certainly warrant us looking at things like a 2:51:21.320 --> 2:51:23.600 general strike, but they're a bit it's a bit phine 2:51:23.680 --> 2:51:26.360 this guide to think that, hey, we got ten grade 2:51:26.400 --> 2:51:28.760 issues that we want to see progress on, We're gonna 2:51:28.800 --> 2:51:30.640 call for our strike and is going to happen. The 2:51:30.760 --> 2:51:34.240 infrastructure is not there, nor is the political will within 2:51:34.320 --> 2:51:37.320 the large labor bodies at this praised present time. Without 2:51:37.400 --> 2:51:40.320 participation from organized labor, first of all, I don't think 2:51:40.360 --> 2:51:42.680 anything is going to happen. So you're gonna have to 2:51:42.720 --> 2:51:45.320 achieve buy in a certain level. But even with buying 2:51:45.520 --> 2:51:49.800 from key leaders or even a localized shop stewards, you 2:51:49.920 --> 2:51:52.920 still need to have infrastructure in place. So one of 2:51:53.000 --> 2:51:55.800 the things that lacks in the a f l c 2:51:55.879 --> 2:51:58.120 I O as a national organization. We don't have an 2:51:58.160 --> 2:52:02.720 effective network of local union contacts in every shop, at 2:52:02.800 --> 2:52:06.600 every shift, in every factory that's represented by a union, 2:52:06.720 --> 2:52:10.400 let alone the majority of workplaces at this point that 2:52:10.480 --> 2:52:14.520 aren't unionized. So what our top priority is as far 2:52:14.600 --> 2:52:16.720 as the vermontney a fl Sea goes over the next 2:52:16.800 --> 2:52:20.400 two years, is to build a network of local union 2:52:20.520 --> 2:52:23.880 contacts in every single shop and every single shift that 2:52:23.959 --> 2:52:26.720 we represent folks here in Vermont. So we see this 2:52:26.879 --> 2:52:30.200 as a way to increase communication. Without communication, you're not 2:52:30.240 --> 2:52:32.680 going to be able to pull off mass mobilizations and 2:52:32.800 --> 2:52:34.520 what and also you're not going to be able to 2:52:34.959 --> 2:52:38.680 conduct mass education on issues X, Y or Z. So 2:52:39.320 --> 2:52:41.640 over a period of two years, we're looking to build 2:52:41.720 --> 2:52:44.800 this network that would function not as a one way 2:52:45.080 --> 2:52:48.600 means of communication, but almost a two or three way. 2:52:48.720 --> 2:52:50.600 Imagine that this is a way for the rank and 2:52:50.640 --> 2:52:53.320 file to communicate up to the leaders. This is a 2:52:53.400 --> 2:52:56.000 way for the leadership to communicate down to the ranks, 2:52:56.080 --> 2:52:58.120 I mean down to the lunch room level of what 2:52:58.240 --> 2:53:01.000 it means to be in a union shop. And also 2:53:01.760 --> 2:53:04.560 ideally it's going to be a way for local union 2:53:04.800 --> 2:53:09.360 leaders to horizontally communicate with each other. With such a 2:53:09.400 --> 2:53:13.000 structure in place on a grand scale, on a state scale, 2:53:13.080 --> 2:53:16.800 on a federal scale, then things like organized general strikes 2:53:17.000 --> 2:53:20.760 over political issues and social issues become feasible. And even 2:53:20.800 --> 2:53:23.160 when they're feasible, though, then we still have the political 2:53:23.280 --> 2:53:26.760 question of you know, will they be supported by the internationals, 2:53:26.840 --> 2:53:29.120 will they be supported by the executive board of the 2:53:29.200 --> 2:53:32.040 National a f C AL And that's a huge conversation, 2:53:32.280 --> 2:53:34.800 you know. So, Yeah, it's interesting to be hearing your 2:53:34.800 --> 2:53:37.800 perspective on this because my experience with kind of activism 2:53:38.080 --> 2:53:41.359 UM has been much more of kind of the decentralized 2:53:41.440 --> 2:53:45.039 and kind of much more recent groups, you know, since occupy. UM, 2:53:45.200 --> 2:53:47.560 you're dealing with these these structures that in a lot 2:53:47.600 --> 2:53:49.000 of cases there I mean, the A f l C 2:53:49.120 --> 2:53:51.400 I O goes back like what like a century, right 2:53:51.920 --> 2:53:55.280 one one way or the other. Yeah, you know, I think, UM, 2:53:55.879 --> 2:53:59.400 because of kind of how shall I say, online, a 2:53:59.480 --> 2:54:01.440 lot of the discussion about this stuff seems to be 2:54:02.080 --> 2:54:04.600 organized labor often gets left out. And one of the 2:54:04.680 --> 2:54:06.800 things that I think is most important when talking about 2:54:07.440 --> 2:54:10.600 the value that organized labor has in any kind of 2:54:10.640 --> 2:54:13.120 discussion if a general strike is what happened during the 2:54:14.200 --> 2:54:17.880 during the budget uh negotiations or whatever you want to 2:54:17.879 --> 2:54:20.800 call them in twenty nineteen where you you had UM 2:54:21.040 --> 2:54:25.000 airline workers threatening a general strike that effectively brought it 2:54:25.080 --> 2:54:28.800 into a president's saber rattling over over the budget like 2:54:28.920 --> 2:54:32.920 it's it's president Sarah Nelson. Yeah, headlines over that and 2:54:32.959 --> 2:54:37.120 that was the right thing to do, absolutely her and 2:54:37.240 --> 2:54:39.880 would love to sear a a stronger positional leadership the 2:54:40.000 --> 2:54:43.040 national level. Well, I'm interested because I see a lot 2:54:43.120 --> 2:54:46.000 of potential in Obviously organized labor has had a lot 2:54:46.000 --> 2:54:49.760 of problems, particularly in the last you know, during my lifetime, UM, 2:54:49.840 --> 2:54:51.720 And I think part of it is what you said earlier, 2:54:51.800 --> 2:54:54.400 there's it's not as democratic as it should be at 2:54:54.480 --> 2:54:59.039 most levels. UM. What you guys have done with United 2:54:59.240 --> 2:55:03.600 is attempting to reform that, you know within Vermont. I'm wondering, first, 2:55:04.120 --> 2:55:06.080 how did that kind of come about? You know, twenty 2:55:06.200 --> 2:55:08.760 nineteen is when you first got got put into office, 2:55:08.800 --> 2:55:10.600 when when the United State got put in the to 2:55:10.680 --> 2:55:13.240 the office in Vermont? What was kind of the back 2:55:13.360 --> 2:55:15.840 story to that? And then my second question is kind 2:55:15.879 --> 2:55:18.480 of what do you see as necessary to like what 2:55:18.640 --> 2:55:20.720 what what's what's the fight as you see it to 2:55:20.840 --> 2:55:24.160 get stuff like that done on a larger scale around 2:55:24.160 --> 2:55:28.800 the country. So our story in Vermont is probably a 2:55:28.959 --> 2:55:32.400 lot like the story of organized labor in many different 2:55:32.440 --> 2:55:37.240 places are starting point. So in two thousand and seventeen, 2:55:37.760 --> 2:55:42.160 not that long ago, ah, we had a convention with 2:55:42.360 --> 2:55:45.840 something like twenty or twenty five delegates there. Imagine that 2:55:45.920 --> 2:55:49.240 twenty delegates representing T at the time ten thousand grown 2:55:49.280 --> 2:55:53.160 since but ten thousand members. That's called the democracy. So 2:55:54.040 --> 2:55:57.720 there was a problem, an existential problem. Now I come 2:55:57.760 --> 2:56:00.920 out of Asked Me Local Me four thirteen in the 2:56:00.959 --> 2:56:04.800 northeast Kingdom of Vermont. So when I got together with 2:56:04.879 --> 2:56:07.960 a number of other leaders from different unions, different Asked 2:56:08.000 --> 2:56:11.200 Me locals, but also United Academics is part of a 2:56:11.360 --> 2:56:15.520 f T the building trades. A number of folks. Uh, 2:56:15.920 --> 2:56:18.600 there was a general recognition at the leadership level that 2:56:18.720 --> 2:56:22.120 something was very wrong. Member participation was weakest can be, 2:56:22.440 --> 2:56:26.120 and things had to change. And we continually as an organization, 2:56:27.040 --> 2:56:31.160 you know, with some exceptions, hitch our wagon to the 2:56:31.240 --> 2:56:34.840 shortcomings that are the Democratic Party. So all of these 2:56:34.879 --> 2:56:41.040 things together led to inactivity, apathy, and lack of democracy. 2:56:42.000 --> 2:56:44.800 So we started going around we started talking with workers, 2:56:44.920 --> 2:56:47.400 we started talking with shops across the state, and one 2:56:47.440 --> 2:56:49.920 of the first things that was striking. People would say 2:56:50.040 --> 2:56:51.800 they would know what union they're n be a A 2:56:51.959 --> 2:56:55.560 PWU or asking me or whatever it was. But we'd say, listen, 2:56:55.760 --> 2:56:58.680 we're talking. We're thinking about running a slate progressive slave 2:56:58.760 --> 2:57:00.640 for office with to take the a f l c 2:57:00.720 --> 2:57:02.840 I O in a new direction. The next thing they 2:57:02.840 --> 2:57:04.280 would say, is, what's the a f l C I 2:57:06.000 --> 2:57:09.680 think about that? Right, workers involved, some of which were 2:57:09.760 --> 2:57:12.920 union stewarts and their locals didn't even know what the 2:57:13.000 --> 2:57:15.760 a f l c I O was. So that was 2:57:15.840 --> 2:57:19.720 our starting point. It was an excellent crisis of labor. 2:57:20.640 --> 2:57:23.880 And mind you, during these what I would call some 2:57:24.080 --> 2:57:29.000 dark periods, we would often endorse a hundred candidates for 2:57:29.120 --> 2:57:33.440 state House, nearly all of which being Democrats, and then 2:57:33.640 --> 2:57:36.440 we they would win. They would win their elections, like 2:57:36.680 --> 2:57:40.800 largely our candidates win, and then we get nothing in 2:57:40.879 --> 2:57:43.200 the state House. Right, there would be no labor bill, 2:57:43.240 --> 2:57:46.240 there'd be no advancement of card check. Differently, the organized 2:57:46.280 --> 2:57:49.680 labor and yet we keep repeating the same mistake year 2:57:49.720 --> 2:57:52.280 and year out and not figure out that something was wrong. 2:57:52.879 --> 2:57:56.359 So when we formed the United State as a coalition 2:57:56.440 --> 2:57:58.480 of a number of different unions to recognize it was 2:57:58.560 --> 2:58:01.480 time for change, we really brought the discussion into the 2:58:01.560 --> 2:58:05.120 grassroots level. We developed a ten point program we called 2:58:05.200 --> 2:58:07.680 our little read book. It's now the policy and the 2:58:08.400 --> 2:58:11.200 platform of the Vermont f l c i A, and 2:58:11.520 --> 2:58:14.360 we ran an organized campaign based on that right at 2:58:14.360 --> 2:58:18.560 a very local level. And here we did all the 2:58:18.680 --> 2:58:22.080 things that you know you should be doing, the phone calls, emails, 2:58:22.160 --> 2:58:24.680 the shop visits, all of this and created a sense 2:58:24.720 --> 2:58:28.800 of excitement going into our two convention. Our two thousand 2:58:28.920 --> 2:58:32.520 nineteen convention with over if I recall, over a hundred 2:58:32.560 --> 2:58:37.000 and five delegates and alternates, was the largest convention we 2:58:37.200 --> 2:58:40.440 had up here in in something like thirty plus years. 2:58:41.280 --> 2:58:44.280 So that was an exciting atmosphere where something was going 2:58:44.320 --> 2:58:46.959 to be different and something was going to change right. 2:58:47.560 --> 2:58:50.920 So we swept. We essentially slept those elections. We want 2:58:50.959 --> 2:58:53.360 all the seats except for one. We had a follow 2:58:53.480 --> 2:58:57.720 up convention in two UM sorry election in two where 2:58:57.800 --> 2:59:00.480 we won every single seat, and then the last selection 2:59:00.879 --> 2:59:04.600 UM we won all seats except for one where one 2:59:04.680 --> 2:59:07.280 person who's a good, good person from the building trades 2:59:08.600 --> 2:59:11.560 ran but was not part of our state. So the 2:59:11.640 --> 2:59:13.560 real question is what have we done in the intern 2:59:13.920 --> 2:59:16.040 how are we changing that direction, and how are we 2:59:16.200 --> 2:59:18.840 changing trying to seek to change the capacity of labor, 2:59:19.200 --> 2:59:21.440 and what lessons does it add to the national room. 2:59:21.560 --> 2:59:25.960 I would suppose so on that for one of the 2:59:26.040 --> 2:59:28.320 first things we did is we took money out of 2:59:28.360 --> 2:59:32.800 our lobbying operation and put it into an organizing the department, 2:59:32.920 --> 2:59:35.800 whereby we would hire and we have hired on call 2:59:35.959 --> 2:59:39.400 organizers to assist our affiliates in either new organizing or 2:59:39.480 --> 2:59:44.440 internal organizing, therefore delivering an actual benefits to our affiliate unions. Now, 2:59:44.520 --> 2:59:47.120 mind you, we represent just about every sector of workers 2:59:47.280 --> 2:59:52.320 all across the state, but forever they very rarely got 2:59:52.440 --> 2:59:57.760 a concrete, measurable acts of solidarity from the Federation as such, 2:59:57.920 --> 2:59:59.880 right because all of a lot of too many of 3:00:00.080 --> 3:00:03.160 resources were put in belonging. And we also took a 3:00:03.200 --> 3:00:07.920 critical eye towards the Democratic Party and recently we've instead 3:00:08.160 --> 3:00:12.920 endorsed the Social Democratic Vermont Progressive Party slates and their 3:00:13.000 --> 3:00:16.640 runs for state House and state wide office. In many cases, 3:00:17.240 --> 3:00:20.160 so we've done a few things differently. We're continuing to 3:00:20.200 --> 3:00:22.800 do things differently. We've expanded the size of our executive 3:00:22.840 --> 3:00:25.880 board so you we elect more leaders now. We've more 3:00:25.920 --> 3:00:28.400 than double the size of the delegates afforded to each 3:00:28.480 --> 3:00:30.920 local so we could have more rank and foot file 3:00:31.040 --> 3:00:35.520 voices present when we're meeting at a convention. And we've 3:00:35.600 --> 3:00:40.000 taken a strong um social justice position where we think 3:00:40.040 --> 3:00:43.600 that organized labor must work very closely in an alliance, 3:00:43.640 --> 3:00:47.320 form alliances with groups like Migrant Justice or Black Perspective 3:00:48.080 --> 3:00:52.800 or environmental organizations like three fifty dot org. And we've 3:00:52.879 --> 3:00:55.000 done those things, worked on their issues where we have 3:00:55.120 --> 3:00:57.400 common interests, and we've asked them to support us on 3:00:57.480 --> 3:01:01.160 our issues where where they've I have some common interests. 3:01:01.600 --> 3:01:03.760 So those are things that are very different that the 3:01:03.879 --> 3:01:06.080 National a f l C is not doing. Other state 3:01:06.520 --> 3:01:11.160 labor federations largely aren't doing enough. And we're hoping now 3:01:11.280 --> 3:01:16.040 to build that out, and we're engaging conversations seeking to 3:01:16.200 --> 3:01:20.320 form a national progressive Caucus within the National ALC. I 3:01:21.560 --> 3:01:23.959 and I think that's so important when you talk about 3:01:24.360 --> 3:01:27.440 kind of on the national level for progressive number one 3:01:27.520 --> 3:01:33.600 to not not continually kind of reflectively support the Democratic 3:01:33.680 --> 3:01:37.320 Party when the Democratics parties is failing progressives, which you know, 3:01:37.440 --> 3:01:39.680 we have a perfect case study right now in Congress 3:01:39.840 --> 3:01:44.280 with the the Reconciliation Bill. UM. It often does seem 3:01:44.400 --> 3:01:49.280 like such an insurmountable task just because the inability, like 3:01:49.400 --> 3:01:52.080 a bill, the three point five trillion dollar infrastructure bill, 3:01:52.160 --> 3:01:55.520 is so widely supported by Americans, but it just keeps 3:01:55.600 --> 3:01:59.240 coming down to this tiny number of folks with you know, 3:01:59.640 --> 3:02:03.520 finding anential interests in donors um, who are who are 3:02:03.600 --> 3:02:07.360 pushing against something that's widely supported. And I feel um 3:02:07.800 --> 3:02:11.280 optimistic when I look at state organizations like what y'all 3:02:11.320 --> 3:02:13.960 are doing and the fact that I can see something building, 3:02:14.480 --> 3:02:17.520 but I also does it is such a titanic task 3:02:17.680 --> 3:02:20.320 to imagine translating that on a national scale in a 3:02:20.360 --> 3:02:22.840 way that actually gets us the things that you know, 3:02:22.959 --> 3:02:25.280 we we really can't wait for when you're talking about 3:02:25.320 --> 3:02:27.520 some of this infrastructure stuff, when you're talking about healthcare, 3:02:27.560 --> 3:02:30.560 when you're talking about climate justice, Like, I do feel 3:02:30.560 --> 3:02:33.080 the clock ticking um, and I'm wondering what you see 3:02:33.120 --> 3:02:37.080 as the hope on the national scale for actually putting 3:02:37.160 --> 3:02:41.920 some muscle behind the progressive movement. Well, look, it's not 3:02:42.160 --> 3:02:45.320 just the the issues of the Infrastructure Bill and the 3:02:45.400 --> 3:02:49.440 budget bill. It's also the Proact right, the bill that 3:02:49.640 --> 3:02:53.480 is language in the Senate. And let's not lose track 3:02:53.520 --> 3:02:58.160 of the fact that those efforts are all stalling and 3:02:58.400 --> 3:03:01.959 likely very likely to fail. And I hope they don't 3:03:02.760 --> 3:03:06.320 because of Democrats, because the Democratic Party is not united. 3:03:06.360 --> 3:03:08.160 They ran on a platform saying they were going to 3:03:08.280 --> 3:03:10.480 do X, Y and Z, and now when they're in 3:03:10.560 --> 3:03:12.440 a position to carry it out, they're not going to 3:03:12.560 --> 3:03:16.400 do it. And Joe Manchin, uh far as I'm concerned, 3:03:16.600 --> 3:03:18.800 UH call him a class trader, but I don't think 3:03:18.840 --> 3:03:22.119 he's ever was part of the working class. He claims 3:03:22.200 --> 3:03:24.480 to support the Proact, but in the same breath he 3:03:24.720 --> 3:03:26.959 he won't get rid of the filibuster. So, I mean, 3:03:27.040 --> 3:03:29.840 that's absolute bullshit as far as I'm concerned. So how 3:03:29.879 --> 3:03:33.320 do we change that? Well, the National a f l 3:03:33.360 --> 3:03:36.400 c I O puts millions and millions and millions of 3:03:36.440 --> 3:03:40.120 dollars into elections. We have gotten so many of these 3:03:40.200 --> 3:03:44.480 people elected and back them in Arizona and West Virginia, 3:03:44.640 --> 3:03:47.280 you name it, and then we get nothing back. If 3:03:47.360 --> 3:03:49.760 we were to take that money instead and put it 3:03:49.879 --> 3:03:55.600 into a robust new organizing department or a recrafted organizing 3:03:55.680 --> 3:04:01.120 department and actually assigned reel on the ground organizers in 3:04:01.240 --> 3:04:03.760 every single state in the country to help our affiliates, 3:04:03.800 --> 3:04:07.680 to help our state federations and their affiliates to internally organized, 3:04:07.720 --> 3:04:09.600 to build a kind of network I talked was talking 3:04:09.600 --> 3:04:12.320 to me about before, and to be active and build 3:04:12.360 --> 3:04:16.800 alliances the Social Justice Group, our power would be amplified 3:04:17.160 --> 3:04:20.240 five million fold. This is the way we do it. 3:04:20.600 --> 3:04:23.360 Politicians aren't going to do what's right because it's right. 3:04:23.800 --> 3:04:26.040 Politicians are gonna do what's right when they feel so 3:04:26.200 --> 3:04:28.920 much pressure that they have to do it. Now, the 3:04:29.040 --> 3:04:32.199 victories that we saw for working people during the Great 3:04:32.240 --> 3:04:36.200 Depression under FDR, that wasn't just because FDR thought, you know, 3:04:36.280 --> 3:04:38.240 this is the right thing to do. It's because people 3:04:38.280 --> 3:04:40.840 are going on strike, because people were organized because they 3:04:40.879 --> 3:04:44.480 were scared of revolutionary change in this country. So turn 3:04:44.600 --> 3:04:49.240 to meaningful, true, true um of major reforms as a 3:04:49.320 --> 3:04:53.400 way to blunt that perceived threat that they have. And 3:04:53.600 --> 3:04:55.959 that's what we got to get back to. Not our 3:04:56.000 --> 3:04:58.720 power is never gonna grow from people who are wearing 3:04:58.800 --> 3:05:01.280 ties in Washington. Power is going to grow based on 3:05:01.320 --> 3:05:04.680 our solidarity on the shop floor and in our communities. 3:05:05.000 --> 3:05:06.800 So that's the direction we gotta go, and we got 3:05:06.879 --> 3:05:10.360 to do that rapidly, very rapidly. It's been clear to 3:05:10.440 --> 3:05:13.760 me for quite a while both that the reason workers 3:05:13.879 --> 3:05:16.400 gain so much in the wake of the Great Depression 3:05:16.480 --> 3:05:18.280 and the only kind of hope we have for doing 3:05:18.320 --> 3:05:21.360 that now is, um, they have to be scared, you know, 3:05:21.520 --> 3:05:23.640 to an extent, they have to be scared of of 3:05:23.800 --> 3:05:27.000 what's arrayed against them, both in its organization and in 3:05:27.080 --> 3:05:32.800 its ability to disrupt things. UM. And I'm wondering what 3:05:32.920 --> 3:05:36.600 you think people listening, people um, who maybe are not 3:05:36.760 --> 3:05:40.080 involved in organized labor, Like what what what do you 3:05:40.160 --> 3:05:44.080 think people can do to further those ends? Like this 3:05:44.280 --> 3:05:46.360 is like when we when we start talking about national 3:05:46.480 --> 3:05:48.680 level a f l C I O politics, that's not 3:05:48.800 --> 3:05:52.240 something I think most people listening feel like they have 3:05:52.640 --> 3:05:55.440 any kind of ability to influence. Um, what do you 3:05:55.520 --> 3:05:57.879 think they can influence? What do you think people can 3:05:57.959 --> 3:06:02.400 be doing to build that kind of capathitate? Well, you 3:06:02.520 --> 3:06:06.000 gotta be active, and you've got to engage in the 3:06:06.480 --> 3:06:10.280 political and social movements. But also most folks, you know, 3:06:10.360 --> 3:06:12.480 they're gonna have a job of some time and a 3:06:12.560 --> 3:06:14.720 lot of folks aren't getting treated the way they should 3:06:14.760 --> 3:06:16.160 in their job. I don't care if you're work in 3:06:16.200 --> 3:06:18.920 a coffee shop, in a restaurant, or in a gas station, 3:06:19.800 --> 3:06:23.480 or in manufacturing, and you could start by organizing with 3:06:23.560 --> 3:06:26.600 your coworkers to form a union today. You know, you 3:06:26.680 --> 3:06:29.480 could reach out to a local union to ask for help, 3:06:29.600 --> 3:06:31.720 or you could do it on your own. Frankly, but 3:06:31.959 --> 3:06:34.280 if we're not organized as working people, and we are 3:06:35.480 --> 3:06:38.520 we are most of the world. If we're not organized 3:06:38.520 --> 3:06:42.039 amongst ourselves, we're not going to be able to become 3:06:42.120 --> 3:06:44.720 that expression of power that we need to be in 3:06:44.879 --> 3:06:47.080 order to create the change. If we're just a collection 3:06:47.120 --> 3:06:51.560 of individuals, then the ruling class, the wealthy, the powerful, 3:06:51.640 --> 3:06:54.560 the elite, they're gonna have all their ducks in a 3:06:54.680 --> 3:06:58.199 row to keep us divided and to keep their foot 3:06:58.240 --> 3:07:00.920 on the pedal of the status quo. So we need 3:07:01.000 --> 3:07:03.520 to come together. We need to organize in the natural 3:07:03.560 --> 3:07:08.280 place to organize is in the workplace. In my opinion, yeah, 3:07:08.360 --> 3:07:11.320 I mean it. It is the natural place to organize. 3:07:11.400 --> 3:07:14.520 It's also become an increasingly difficult place to organize. We 3:07:14.560 --> 3:07:18.160 all watch what Amazon did in Bessemer this year. You know, UM, 3:07:18.400 --> 3:07:22.280 and and that fight is still ongoing to an extent. UM, 3:07:22.920 --> 3:07:26.760 but it is Uh, it is a continuing challenge, um 3:07:27.760 --> 3:07:31.640 to to actually effectively unionized in a lot of the 3:07:31.680 --> 3:07:34.760 industries where it matters most you know, UM, like we 3:07:34.879 --> 3:07:38.359 have some choke point industries, like we talked about aircraft 3:07:38.440 --> 3:07:41.120 employees that are heavily unionized, thankfully, and that do have 3:07:41.200 --> 3:07:43.800 a lot of power, as has been demonstrated recently when 3:07:43.840 --> 3:07:47.200 they when they go to the mat. Um. But I 3:07:47.520 --> 3:07:50.440 I'm interested in kind of we we've got, you know, 3:07:50.560 --> 3:07:54.640 Amazon employees is really one of the areas that I'm 3:07:54.840 --> 3:07:57.760 looking at where, my god, if if we could actually 3:07:57.879 --> 3:08:00.720 if something significant could actually get off the ground and 3:08:00.920 --> 3:08:03.920 a significant number of those workers could get organized, it 3:08:04.000 --> 3:08:07.360 can make a real difference. UM. But you know, you've 3:08:07.440 --> 3:08:11.560 got effectively what are community organizations for the most part 3:08:11.680 --> 3:08:14.520 going up against um. You know, Amazon at this point 3:08:14.560 --> 3:08:17.240 has more resources than most nation states. Yeah, but so 3:08:17.400 --> 3:08:20.520 did the Carnegies and the Rockefellers and the folks like 3:08:20.680 --> 3:08:24.119 this and and are particularly and it's always been hard, 3:08:24.879 --> 3:08:28.160 uh too long ago in our country, maybe during our 3:08:28.280 --> 3:08:30.720 grandfather's day, where there was a very good chance you'd 3:08:30.760 --> 3:08:33.200 be shot or at least beat over the head with 3:08:33.360 --> 3:08:36.240 a club from the Pinkerton's if you try to organize. 3:08:36.360 --> 3:08:40.080 Organizing has never been easy, and yeah, such as Columbia today, 3:08:40.760 --> 3:08:44.720 trade unions are killed at an unbelievable clip, almost on 3:08:44.800 --> 3:08:48.640 a daily basis, and yet still they organized. So I'm 3:08:48.720 --> 3:08:52.040 not suggesting to any of your listeners that if this 3:08:52.200 --> 3:08:55.160 is easy, what I am that it has to happen. 3:08:55.360 --> 3:08:58.680 It has to happen. And there's different models too. Like 3:08:59.000 --> 3:09:01.760 in some Place is one of the models that's been 3:09:01.800 --> 3:09:04.640 effectively used as forming workers centers, right, So that's not 3:09:04.760 --> 3:09:08.360 a traditional union. It's a center in a city, or 3:09:08.400 --> 3:09:11.480 in a community or in a town where workers come 3:09:11.560 --> 3:09:15.000 together and strategized right at a in a location, to 3:09:15.200 --> 3:09:18.680 strategize how to be effective as a group, as a whole, 3:09:18.760 --> 3:09:22.320 as a class on issues that are important to them, 3:09:22.600 --> 3:09:24.920 you know, be an economic, be its social, be it um, 3:09:25.000 --> 3:09:28.760 fighting against racism, whatever it may be. That's a model 3:09:28.800 --> 3:09:31.440 that I suggest folks could could look into as an 3:09:31.480 --> 3:09:34.600 alternative way. If, for whatever reason, you don't feel that 3:09:35.560 --> 3:09:38.119 the time is right for a union in your shop today, 3:09:38.360 --> 3:09:40.959 although it needs to be tomorrow, take a look at 3:09:41.000 --> 3:09:43.200 workers center and see if there's one in your community, 3:09:43.240 --> 3:09:46.040 get involved, if not, get together a few people and 3:09:46.120 --> 3:09:48.000 see what it would take to start when where you live. 3:09:48.400 --> 3:09:50.320 But one way or another, we have to be organized, 3:09:50.400 --> 3:09:52.160 we have to come together. We cannot just be a 3:09:52.240 --> 3:09:56.680 collection of individuals. That's a great point, UM, and useful information. 3:09:56.920 --> 3:09:58.400 I think kind of the last thing I wanted to 3:09:58.480 --> 3:10:01.120 get into UM was one of the things I first 3:10:01.200 --> 3:10:04.880 learned about your organization that you issued a solidarity statement 3:10:04.920 --> 3:10:07.600 back and I think it was two thousand nineteen UM 3:10:07.920 --> 3:10:12.440 with the YPG and J in Rojaba. UM. And you've 3:10:12.480 --> 3:10:15.360 issued you know it stated your solidarity with Black Lives matter, 3:10:15.520 --> 3:10:19.720 with the Zapatista's currently what they're undergoing in Mexico, UM, 3:10:19.920 --> 3:10:23.080 which is massive repression from the government yet again. UM. 3:10:23.360 --> 3:10:26.240 And you know your support of Palestinian rights and of 3:10:26.680 --> 3:10:29.480 against sort of the U S occupation or not occupation, 3:10:29.560 --> 3:10:33.120 but a blockade of Cuba. UM. What do you see 3:10:33.280 --> 3:10:37.000 when we're talking about this struggle, this broad struggle we've 3:10:37.000 --> 3:10:38.200 been talking about all day, what do you see as 3:10:38.240 --> 3:10:41.840 the role of internationalism and both in both organizing people 3:10:41.879 --> 3:10:47.640 in organizing resistance. Well, our starting point today is capital 3:10:47.959 --> 3:10:52.720 is international. So we're going to have a foundational challenge 3:10:53.080 --> 3:10:55.440 to the power of capital. We also have to be 3:10:55.520 --> 3:11:00.760 internationalists in our altbum. We supported the YPG y p 3:11:00.920 --> 3:11:05.840 J and the newly elected government in Rojava because they 3:11:05.879 --> 3:11:10.200 are struggling for economic equity and a direct prot history 3:11:10.280 --> 3:11:12.360 democracy in that corner of the world. We see this 3:11:12.440 --> 3:11:17.880 as the most significant revolution in in the world, uh 3:11:18.000 --> 3:11:20.640 in generations. I mean this in our mind is on 3:11:20.800 --> 3:11:22.920 far with the Spanish Civil War and what we saw 3:11:23.000 --> 3:11:25.840 around Barcelona and the c n T then or the 3:11:25.879 --> 3:11:29.920 Paris Commune of EE. If this was happening in Europe, 3:11:29.959 --> 3:11:31.720 a day wouldn't go by the where this wouldn't be 3:11:31.760 --> 3:11:35.640 front page news. But in the Western world we often 3:11:36.200 --> 3:11:38.760 the corporate media terms of blind blind eye to many 3:11:38.800 --> 3:11:42.200 of those struggles. So they're doing their part, and we 3:11:42.280 --> 3:11:44.880 have to do our part in our country. To the Zabatistas, 3:11:44.879 --> 3:11:48.440 they're doing their part in Chiapas, in broadways, in some 3:11:48.560 --> 3:11:52.360 regards in Mexico as such. But we need to reach 3:11:52.400 --> 3:11:55.560 our hand out in encouragement and say hey, we're here 3:11:55.720 --> 3:11:58.880 to support you. One of the things we sought to 3:11:58.959 --> 3:12:02.600 concretely do in the Vermont labor movement is in two 3:12:02.640 --> 3:12:05.680 thou nineteen one of our Central Labor Council's passed the 3:12:05.760 --> 3:12:09.200 resolutions for we said, look, if you are go over 3:12:09.280 --> 3:12:12.160 to fight and volunteer with the YEPG and y p J, 3:12:12.360 --> 3:12:15.920 because there's thousands of volunteers right uh, they're are volunteered 3:12:15.959 --> 3:12:18.760 to go over, if you return and your American will 3:12:18.800 --> 3:12:22.040 hook you up with a union job, and we'll hook 3:12:22.080 --> 3:12:24.360 you up with three months of room and board so 3:12:24.480 --> 3:12:26.760 you could get reacclimated, you could get back into the 3:12:26.800 --> 3:12:28.800 community and get back into the local fight through the 3:12:28.879 --> 3:12:32.680 labor movement. And we were proud to actually have an 3:12:32.680 --> 3:12:35.880 opportunity to do that for one returning American fighter in 3:12:35.959 --> 3:12:38.960 our latest resolution in two one, and this one was 3:12:39.280 --> 3:12:41.960 broader because it was the whole vermonti a FO, not 3:12:42.080 --> 3:12:45.720 just the Central Labor Council. We again offered, we encourage 3:12:45.760 --> 3:12:48.640 folks to feel so inclined if they're in that place 3:12:48.680 --> 3:12:51.120 in their life to volunteer with the YPG and y 3:12:51.240 --> 3:12:53.920 PA and if they're Americans and they come back, we're 3:12:53.959 --> 3:12:55.520 happy to hook you up. We'll do our best to 3:12:55.520 --> 3:12:57.880 get you a good union job when you return. So 3:12:58.000 --> 3:13:00.120 we felt that was a very small least we do 3:13:00.280 --> 3:13:04.240 kind of thing. But concrete way to provide solidarity. We 3:13:04.400 --> 3:13:06.920 all have to stand together. It's really one fight. But 3:13:07.040 --> 3:13:09.480 the place we're going to be effective is where you 3:13:09.600 --> 3:13:12.680 live locally, in your town, in your city, and your 3:13:12.800 --> 3:13:16.640 state and in your country. Yeah. I think that's a 3:13:16.720 --> 3:13:18.960 great note to end on and a great thing that 3:13:19.080 --> 3:13:21.560 you all are doing. And I really do appreciate that, 3:13:21.680 --> 3:13:24.040 and I appreciate you, David coming on and talking to 3:13:24.200 --> 3:13:26.640 us today. Um, is there anything else you wanted to 3:13:27.000 --> 3:13:29.120 to to get out or anything you wanted to like 3:13:29.200 --> 3:13:32.400 any you know, charities or mutual aid funds or whatever 3:13:32.440 --> 3:13:35.320 you wanted to uh push before we kind of roll 3:13:35.360 --> 3:13:38.280 out today. I'd just like to push for folks to 3:13:38.600 --> 3:13:42.120 go to work out tomorrow and and organize, organize with 3:13:42.200 --> 3:13:45.840 your fellow workers and let's change the world solidarity. Thank you, David. 3:13:50.080 --> 3:13:52.320 Robert Evans here and I wanted to ask for your help. 3:13:52.480 --> 3:13:54.880 There is a Portland area woman rub it to me me. 3:13:55.040 --> 3:13:58.440 She's an Arabic interpreter and a Palestinian liberation activist and 3:13:58.560 --> 3:14:01.080 she is trying to save her home at the moment. 3:14:01.640 --> 3:14:03.280 She's got to go fund me. If you go to 3:14:03.440 --> 3:14:07.240 save Ruba's house, are you be a on go fund Bank, 3:14:07.280 --> 3:14:09.960 you'll find it. Save Ruby's House on go fund Me 3:14:10.400 --> 3:14:12.360 if you've got a few bucks, um, she could really 3:14:12.480 --> 3:14:15.120 use it again. Save Ruba's House. Are you be a 3:14:15.760 --> 3:14:19.080 at go fund Me? Thanks? Hey, We'll be back Monday 3:14:19.240 --> 3:14:22.160 with more episodes every week from now until the heat 3:14:22.200 --> 3:14:24.720 death of the Universe. It Could Happen Here is a 3:14:24.760 --> 3:14:27.640 production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool 3:14:27.720 --> 3:14:30.320 Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 3:14:30.480 --> 3:14:32.200 or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 3:14:32.240 --> 3:14:35.600 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 3:14:35.640 --> 3:14:38.320 find sources for It Could Happen here, updated monthly at 3:14:38.360 --> 3:14:41.560 cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening. 3:14:43.920 --> 3:14:46.560 When P. T. Barnum's Great American Museum burned to the 3:14:46.640 --> 3:14:49.640 ground in eighteen sixty five, what rose from its ashes 3:14:49.720 --> 3:14:53.320 would change the world? Welcome to Grim and Mild presents 3:14:53.640 --> 3:14:57.359 an ongoing journey into the strange, the unusual, and the fascinating. 3:14:57.840 --> 3:15:00.320 In our inaugural season, will give you a back stage 3:15:00.360 --> 3:15:03.720 tour of the complex and unusual artifact that is the 3:15:03.840 --> 3:15:07.360 American Side Show. Listen to Grim and Mile Presents now 3:15:07.520 --> 3:15:10.440 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 3:15:10.600 --> 3:15:15.480 you listen to podcasts. After thirty years, it's time to 3:15:15.560 --> 3:15:17.920 return to the halls of West Beverly High and hang 3:15:18.000 --> 3:15:20.200 out at the peach pit. On the podcast nine O 3:15:20.320 --> 3:15:23.480 two one o MG, visit Jenny Garth and Tori Spelling 3:15:23.600 --> 3:15:26.160 for a rewatch of the hit series Beverly Hills nine 3:15:26.200 --> 3:15:28.600 O two one oh. From the very beginning, we get 3:15:28.760 --> 3:15:31.640 to tell the fans all of the behind the scenes 3:15:31.680 --> 3:15:34.040 stories to actually happen, so they know what happened on 3:15:34.160 --> 3:15:36.840 camera obviously, but we can tell them all the good 3:15:36.879 --> 3:15:39.040 stuff that happened off camera. Listen to nine O two 3:15:39.120 --> 3:15:42.040 one O MG on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 3:15:42.200 --> 3:15:45.280 or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys, I'm 3:15:45.320 --> 3:15:47.200 a Shop Bloud and I am Troy Millions and we 3:15:47.280 --> 3:15:49.560 are the host of the Ernia Leisure podcast when we 3:15:49.680 --> 3:15:53.240 break down business models and examine the latest trans and finance. 3:15:53.440 --> 3:15:55.400 We hold court and have exclusive interviews with some of 3:15:55.400 --> 3:15:58.080 the biggest names of business, sport and entertainment, from DJ 3:15:58.280 --> 3:16:01.040 Khaled to Mark Cuban, Rick Ross, Shaquille O'Neil. I mean, 3:16:01.080 --> 3:16:03.640 our alumni list is expansive. Listen to as our guests 3:16:03.680 --> 3:16:06.879 reveal their business models, hardships and triumphs, and their respective fields. 3:16:06.920 --> 3:16:08.879 The knowledge is in death and the questions are always 3:16:08.920 --> 3:16:11.400 delivered from your standpoint. We want to know what you 3:16:11.440 --> 3:16:14.560 want to know. We talked to the legends of business, sports, 3:16:14.600 --> 3:16:17.680 and entertainment about how they got their start and most importantly, 3:16:17.720 --> 3:16:19.720 how they make their money. Earni a Leisia is a 3:16:19.800 --> 3:16:22.080 college business class mixed with pop culture. You want to 3:16:22.120 --> 3:16:24.360 learn about the real estate game. Unclear as how the 3:16:24.400 --> 3:16:27.080 stock market works. We got you interested in starting a 3:16:27.080 --> 3:16:29.920 trucking company or vending machine business. Not really sure about 3:16:30.000 --> 3:16:32.680 how taxes or credit work. We got it all covered. 3:16:32.800 --> 3:16:35.920 The Earnier Leisure podcast is available now. Listen to Earnier 3:16:36.000 --> 3:16:39.280 Leisure on the Black Effect podcast Network, I Heart Radio, app, 3:16:39.560 --> 3:16:41.959 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.