1
00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:05,560
Speaker 1: The Gangster Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves

2
00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:09,680
Speaker 1: around underworld, the criminals and entertainers into victims, crime and

3
00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,040
Speaker 1: law enforcement. We cover all facets of the game. Gainster

4
00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:17,520
Speaker 1: Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify promotilised activities. We just discussed the

5
00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,680
Speaker 1: ramifications and repercussions of these activities. Because at the Wall

6
00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,320
Speaker 1: you played gamester games, you are ultimately rewarded with Gangster prizes.

7
00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,680
Speaker 1: Our Heart radio is number one for podcasts, but don't

8
00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,680
Speaker 1: take our award for it. Find against the Chronicles podcast

9
00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,400
Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcast.

10
00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,919
Speaker 1: This is Roxanne Gay, the host of The Roxanne Gay Agenda,

11
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,760
Speaker 1: the bad feminist podcast of your Dreams. Each week I

12
00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,120
Speaker 1: talked to an interesting person about feminism, race, writing and

13
00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:51,360
Speaker 1: books and art, food, pop culture and yes, politics, we

14
00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:56,120
Speaker 1: can't escape politics. Listen to the luminary original podcast, The

15
00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,960
Speaker 1: Roxanne Gay Agenda every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app,

16
00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:06,440
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys.

17
00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:08,440
Speaker 1: I'm a Shop Bloud and I am Troy Millions and

18
00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,800
Speaker 1: we are the host of the Earnier Leisure podcast where

19
00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,839
Speaker 1: we break down business models and examine the latest trends

20
00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,480
Speaker 1: in finance. We hold court and have exclusive interviews with

21
00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:18,760
Speaker 1: some of the biggest names of business, sport, and entertainment,

22
00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,920
Speaker 1: from DJ Khaled to Mark Cuban, Rick Ross and Shaquill O'Neil.

23
00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,600
Speaker 1: I mean our alumni lists expansive. Listen to the as

24
00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,200
Speaker 1: our guests reveal their business models, hardships and triumphs and

25
00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,280
Speaker 1: their respective fields. The knowledge is in death and the

26
00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,280
Speaker 1: questions are always delivered from your standpoint. We want to

27
00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,280
Speaker 1: know what you want to know. We talked to the

28
00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,360
Speaker 1: legends of business, sports and entertainment about how they got

29
00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,000
Speaker 1: their start and most importantly, how they make their money.

30
00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,360
Speaker 1: Earn your Leisia is a college business class mixed with

31
00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,440
Speaker 1: pop culture. Want to learn about the real estate game, unclears,

32
00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,000
Speaker 1: how the stock market works? We got you interested in

33
00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,440
Speaker 1: starting a truck and company or vendor machine business? Not

34
00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,160
Speaker 1: really sure about how taxes or credit work. We got

35
00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,120
Speaker 1: it all covered. The Earnier Leisure podcast is available now.

36
00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,360
Speaker 1: Listen to Earnier Leisure on the Black Effect podcast Network.

37
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,600
Speaker 1: I are Radio, app, Apple podcast or wherever you get

38
00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:10,440
Speaker 1: your podcasts. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted

39
00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,520
Speaker 1: to let you know, this is a compilation episode, So

40
00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,240
Speaker 1: every episode of the week that just happened is here

41
00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:21,200
Speaker 1: in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for

42
00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,400
Speaker 1: you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.

43
00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:25,959
Speaker 1: If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

44
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,200
Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, But you

45
00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:33,960
Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. This is it could happen

46
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,680
Speaker 1: here a podcast that I opened perfectly as a professional,

47
00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:40,480
Speaker 1: as a man who makes all of his money from

48
00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:46,480
Speaker 1: the podcasts uh no, notes, How was syphilis doing these days?

49
00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:48,360
Speaker 1: You don't hear a lot from syphilis? Is it? Is

50
00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,919
Speaker 1: it holding up? Okay, yeah, it's around. It's fine. Thank

51
00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,960
Speaker 1: you for asking it. I didn't know that. It's not

52
00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,400
Speaker 1: the same thread it used to be. It comes back

53
00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:58,680
Speaker 1: in waves every now and then. It has had a

54
00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:00,600
Speaker 1: good run for a couple of It's kind of like

55
00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:06,200
Speaker 1: Star Trek, right, yeah, yeah, there's a well, I don't

56
00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,079
Speaker 1: think there's like new versions of it. I think it's

57
00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,240
Speaker 1: like the same, good old syphilis pretty much. I don't

58
00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:15,919
Speaker 1: think it changes drastically, So it's like Star Trek on Netflix. Yeah, yeah, okay, Well,

59
00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,360
Speaker 1: good to hear from syphilis. This has been your syphilis update.

60
00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,200
Speaker 1: That's gonna do it for us this week until next week.

61
00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:26,200
Speaker 1: I've been Robert Evans, Dr. Cavajota, and of course Garrison Davis.

62
00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:32,600
Speaker 1: All Right, everyone by, It would be pretty funny to

63
00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,600
Speaker 1: just do that, Sophie, to just drop a one and

64
00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,640
Speaker 1: a half minute episode on, But only if we put

65
00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,640
Speaker 1: in ads. M Yeah, we really like every word. We

66
00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:48,080
Speaker 1: have a full ad break in between. Yeah, then then

67
00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,600
Speaker 1: people would probably complain lest about the nine ads that

68
00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,920
Speaker 1: are in our episodes. Right now, I can talk about

69
00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 1: syphili What are we what are we doing right now?

70
00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,640
Speaker 1: What is this episode about? What's going on? I'm assuming

71
00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,960
Speaker 1: you guys want to talk about the coronavirus or I

72
00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:06,880
Speaker 1: don't know. I can talk about whatever you want, but

73
00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,640
Speaker 1: I think that's probably what you guys brought me on for.

74
00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:11,880
Speaker 1: All right, what do we what is this coronavirus? Is

75
00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,520
Speaker 1: this a problem? It's a little problem. It's not good

76
00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:19,039
Speaker 1: to hear it's it's it's not great. So why didn't

77
00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,200
Speaker 1: you give me a heads up on this? So? Yeah,

78
00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,800
Speaker 1: that that's me not giving you heads up on the plankue.

79
00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:31,200
Speaker 1: The thing's talking about hear anything about this? This is

80
00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,560
Speaker 1: the mask thing. That's why you got those two jabs

81
00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,640
Speaker 1: in your arms and that random parking lot. Oh I

82
00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:43,240
Speaker 1: thought that was heroin. Sorry. First of all, can can

83
00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:45,520
Speaker 1: we talk about the use of the word jab. I

84
00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,320
Speaker 1: don't love it. It's I mean, you're not James Bond,

85
00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:53,120
Speaker 1: you don't. Let's not use jab. Prefer it's fair. I

86
00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:59,120
Speaker 1: prefer what I think is the proper medical term vain fucked. Yeah,

87
00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,000
Speaker 1: but it's not really your vein either. It's really just

88
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,560
Speaker 1: intramuscular fucked. Oh right, muscle fucked. Yeah. I mean, what

89
00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:07,840
Speaker 1: what are the cool kids calling it? Is it a poke?

90
00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,280
Speaker 1: What do we want? What are the teens call it?

91
00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,479
Speaker 1: Is it? Are they calling it the TikTok's? Yeah, it's

92
00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:16,680
Speaker 1: called it's called the TikTok. I don't know. I've I've

93
00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,560
Speaker 1: been been working on I've been working on a all

94
00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,719
Speaker 1: day Today've been working to find this proud boy who's

95
00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:29,240
Speaker 1: pretending to take COVID vaccines but it's actually steroids. Um.

96
00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:36,520
Speaker 1: He calls the critical support, he calls the extracurriculars. Okay,

97
00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,160
Speaker 1: So that honestly rules, that's extremely funny. I'm hoping an

98
00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,800
Speaker 1: article will be out by the time this podcast airs so, uh,

99
00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,920
Speaker 1: who's the article for. I'm not sure yet. I'm talking

100
00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:52,359
Speaker 1: with Opossum Press. Okay, cool, Well that's funny, Garrison. What

101
00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,960
Speaker 1: is today's episode about? Well, we we want to talk

102
00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,440
Speaker 1: to We wanted to talk to Cava about both what

103
00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,440
Speaker 1: the current plagues had situation is because a lot of

104
00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,480
Speaker 1: people seem to think it's over, a lot of people

105
00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,599
Speaker 1: seem to think it's not over. Um. And then also,

106
00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,560
Speaker 1: how is COVID and all the stuff still affecting our

107
00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,880
Speaker 1: hospital and medical system? Um? Is there supply shortages for

108
00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,640
Speaker 1: medical supplies? What's going on in different areas? Yeah, because

109
00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,760
Speaker 1: all of that, all that kind of stuff got you.

110
00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,840
Speaker 1: Yes is the answer? Yes, the answer, it's the answer. Yeah,

111
00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,440
Speaker 1: it's a it's still a problem. I don't think. Uh,

112
00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,000
Speaker 1: don't listen to anyone who tells you that it's not um.

113
00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,160
Speaker 1: Don't listen to anyone who gives you too Sonny of

114
00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,839
Speaker 1: forecast on it. But it you know, it's different in

115
00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,800
Speaker 1: different places, is the long the short of it. In

116
00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:45,280
Speaker 1: places where the vaccinations are higher and where there's mandates

117
00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,840
Speaker 1: and there's reasonable laws about things, the rates are going

118
00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:56,840
Speaker 1: down California, but also like Rhode Island, Maine, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont.

119
00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,800
Speaker 1: These are places with high vaccination rates. The rates of

120
00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,880
Speaker 1: cases are going down in those places. Places like Mississippi,

121
00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,640
Speaker 1: West Virginia, Idaho, Alabama, these are places where like it's

122
00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,400
Speaker 1: vaccination rates and the cases are going way up. You

123
00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,840
Speaker 1: guys might have heard of a couple of things happening,

124
00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,280
Speaker 1: Like there was that forty six year old guy named

125
00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,360
Speaker 1: Daniel Wilkinson. He's like a vet who developed something called

126
00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,320
Speaker 1: gallstone pancreatitis, which I could talk to you guys about

127
00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,040
Speaker 1: for hours. I won't, don't worry, but I could. I'm

128
00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,440
Speaker 1: just like you know, I could. I mean the Idaho

129
00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,200
Speaker 1: they have been cleared. It's not a total DNR, but

130
00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,800
Speaker 1: like anyone who has um cardiac arrest is on a

131
00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:40,800
Speaker 1: DNR now in Idaho because they just don't have the

132
00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,320
Speaker 1: resources to be well, that's not entire I mean what

133
00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,760
Speaker 1: am I? Okay? So that's not your fault. You got

134
00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,360
Speaker 1: it wrong, because there were there were doctors that were

135
00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,160
Speaker 1: sort of spreading that story about now they are and

136
00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,160
Speaker 1: what's called the crisis standard of care. But and in

137
00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,600
Speaker 1: part of that means that hospitals could go to putting

138
00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,640
Speaker 1: everyone on DNR, which means do not resuscitate, which means

139
00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,640
Speaker 1: if you have a cardiac arrest, they won't do anything

140
00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,080
Speaker 1: about it. That's that's not what's actually happening. It could happen.

141
00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,480
Speaker 1: What what when they institute this crisis standard of care.

142
00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,320
Speaker 1: What it means is that if a hospital gets so

143
00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,720
Speaker 1: short on their ventilators and they just don't have any

144
00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,960
Speaker 1: more room, then they could implement that. I mean, I

145
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,160
Speaker 1: don't know, I even't heard of anyone. I was I

146
00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,480
Speaker 1: was asking around uh to see if any doctors in

147
00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,760
Speaker 1: Idaho could tell me of a hospital that's actually doing it.

148
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,400
Speaker 1: I haven't seen or heard of one that's actually doing

149
00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,880
Speaker 1: it yet, but they could. The point is, it's it's

150
00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,240
Speaker 1: that bad where that's a reasonable discussion where doctors have

151
00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,400
Speaker 1: to discuss kind of like they were back in the

152
00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,199
Speaker 1: day in New York, where they have to be like, okay,

153
00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,679
Speaker 1: does this person do we put the you know, the

154
00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,120
Speaker 1: young lady on the mental lator or the old guy?

155
00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,439
Speaker 1: You know? Then we have to decide and they make

156
00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,160
Speaker 1: those decisions. It's really awful. It's a position no doctor

157
00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,800
Speaker 1: wants to be in, and now that's becoming a reality.

158
00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,360
Speaker 1: It's brutal. It's brutal out there and and that's bleeding

159
00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,640
Speaker 1: into other states nearby, you know, So is that what

160
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,320
Speaker 1: you mean by the Welkerson situation because his doctor like

161
00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,559
Speaker 1: couldn't find uh an ICU bed for him. Is that

162
00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,240
Speaker 1: that is that the story you're talking about? That's the story.

163
00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,240
Speaker 1: So he's this guy who had a problem that can

164
00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:16,240
Speaker 1: be fixed. I mean, it's a procedure called an e

165
00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,600
Speaker 1: RCP that he can get done at specialty centers. And

166
00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,520
Speaker 1: he didn't live far from Houston. Houston has plenty of

167
00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:24,640
Speaker 1: the specialty centers that can do it. They have great

168
00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,400
Speaker 1: guests from urologists like myself, not as good, but you know,

169
00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,960
Speaker 1: the same sort of thing. And they could do it

170
00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,280
Speaker 1: if they if they, you know, if they had the

171
00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,560
Speaker 1: availability to get him in. But they didn't, and so

172
00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,120
Speaker 1: he died. Is something that he shouldn't love. It's basically

173
00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,000
Speaker 1: the example. And I'm sure there's more examples of that.

174
00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,240
Speaker 1: And what really worries me is the examples that you're

175
00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,439
Speaker 1: not hearing yet, like cases they're delayed now, cancer screening,

176
00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,360
Speaker 1: things that are being delayed now in these hospitals that

177
00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:57,120
Speaker 1: we're gonna be paying down the road. That's that's the

178
00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,559
Speaker 1: ship that really scares me great, like just people not

179
00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:07,040
Speaker 1: going in for things in general. Yeah exactly, I have

180
00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:08,960
Speaker 1: friends other than you who work in E R s

181
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,360
Speaker 1: and stuff, um, nurses and the doctor um, and it's

182
00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,040
Speaker 1: up in the pm W. But the ship they're saying,

183
00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:22,319
Speaker 1: it's like in the day's crap, like like I they

184
00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,640
Speaker 1: are working on like building capacity and making sure they

185
00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,240
Speaker 1: have things to like treat their friends because it's they're

186
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,560
Speaker 1: like the advices do not go to the hospital like

187
00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:33,959
Speaker 1: if if, if at all possible, because there's just not

188
00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,600
Speaker 1: capacity for you unless it's like literally an immediate life

189
00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:42,960
Speaker 1: and death thing. It's it's almost uh not worth like

190
00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,959
Speaker 1: trying because there's just nothing. There's no slack the system

191
00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,520
Speaker 1: is and it's it's it's starting to turn. It looks

192
00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,560
Speaker 1: like here in in in the Portland area, but like

193
00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:57,000
Speaker 1: it's it's frightening, like these are not people who would

194
00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,360
Speaker 1: be bullshitting or or are are are prone to panic,

195
00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:05,240
Speaker 1: you know, they're e er professionals. But it's it's it's

196
00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,480
Speaker 1: fucked up, like it's it's it it's this thing where

197
00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:10,480
Speaker 1: like the scary thing to me is not even necessarily

198
00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:12,920
Speaker 1: where we are right now, because it does like there

199
00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,440
Speaker 1: is some kind of broadly positive news in a lot

200
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,719
Speaker 1: of areas about like where the pandemic is going. It's

201
00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:23,080
Speaker 1: just like this situation won't be fixed when case numbers

202
00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,960
Speaker 1: go down. It's it's it's going to be permanent damage

203
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:28,400
Speaker 1: has been done to this system. And I guess what

204
00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,720
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, first off, like from what you're seeing, like,

205
00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,960
Speaker 1: what what is the extent of the permanent damage done

206
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,360
Speaker 1: to our our emergency medical system in particular and our

207
00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:43,240
Speaker 1: our ability to even like get care at the moment. Yeah,

208
00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,240
Speaker 1: that's a really good question. I don't I don't know.

209
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,480
Speaker 1: It kind of goes back to I think what Garrison

210
00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,320
Speaker 1: want to talk about, which is like the collapse of

211
00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,480
Speaker 1: the medical system. I think we talk about it a

212
00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,960
Speaker 1: lot in terms of we're on the edge of collapse,

213
00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,000
Speaker 1: we're near collapse. I think there are places in this

214
00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:03,040
Speaker 1: country where or he has collapsed. I think that's pretty evident.

215
00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,520
Speaker 1: It's really it's not homogeneous in any way across this country.

216
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,240
Speaker 1: There are certainly places that are better than others, and

217
00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,000
Speaker 1: there's certainly places that have a lot more uh leeway

218
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,800
Speaker 1: and flexibility, but everywhere is strained right now. And in

219
00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,040
Speaker 1: regards to your question about permanent damage. I'll answer that

220
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:25,319
Speaker 1: in regards to just the personnel. You know, because um,

221
00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:27,600
Speaker 1: because of the show that I have, the House of

222
00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:29,920
Speaker 1: Pod follow us on Twitter at the House of Pod,

223
00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,440
Speaker 1: and I talked to a lot of doctors and nurses

224
00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,240
Speaker 1: from all over the country, talk to them a lot.

225
00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,480
Speaker 1: And it's bad. I mean, the stress that they're under,

226
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,720
Speaker 1: the pts D that they're that they're dealing with, the burnout.

227
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,640
Speaker 1: The level of burnout is just intense. It's intense and

228
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,840
Speaker 1: and it's I think we were talking about moral injury

229
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,120
Speaker 1: and burnout before all this started, and now it is

230
00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,360
Speaker 1: to a point where I don't know what's going to

231
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,640
Speaker 1: happen to the medical system, just in ms of the

232
00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,480
Speaker 1: personnel when this is all over. I know a lot

233
00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:05,920
Speaker 1: of people who are getting out of medicine, getting out

234
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,520
Speaker 1: clinical medicine. I mean out of like I would I

235
00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,360
Speaker 1: would say, out of just my immediate friend group. I

236
00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,480
Speaker 1: can think of a couple off hand excellent doctors, really

237
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,080
Speaker 1: great I c u e er doctors who are already

238
00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,240
Speaker 1: planning their exit. And when I don't know, I mean

239
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,520
Speaker 1: in the next coming years, that's gonna be a major issue.

240
00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:25,120
Speaker 1: And I don't know how we're going to address that.

241
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:26,960
Speaker 1: And our nurses in the I c U. S. Man,

242
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:28,280
Speaker 1: the stuff they have to put up with is and

243
00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:30,680
Speaker 1: is insane. You just see it in their eyes. Eyes

244
00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:34,040
Speaker 1: are broken, like I was. I volunteered on the wards

245
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,640
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago, and people, they're the doctors

246
00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:40,680
Speaker 1: and nurses taking care of these CODE patients day in

247
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,880
Speaker 1: day out, like they there's like a little bit of

248
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,400
Speaker 1: their soul that's been broken, And just see it in

249
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,800
Speaker 1: their eyes like I was there for like just a week,

250
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,839
Speaker 1: and it's terrifying. You know, you're going into a room

251
00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,760
Speaker 1: with a patient with COVID. It's scary. You know, even

252
00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,240
Speaker 1: no matter how much ppe protective equipment you have on,

253
00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,240
Speaker 1: you're always a little scared. And I just think years

254
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,640
Speaker 1: of that that way is on a person in a

255
00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:07,760
Speaker 1: way I don't I mean, I am worried about. I

256
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,800
Speaker 1: don't know how we're going to address that. M h yeah,

257
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,679
Speaker 1: that's cool. Yeah, And it's frustrating because like from the

258
00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,000
Speaker 1: perspective of people listening, right, the thing you want to

259
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,040
Speaker 1: ask is like, well, how can I help, And it's like, well,

260
00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,840
Speaker 1: you can't because you're already if you're listening to the

261
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,560
Speaker 1: show I assume you're masking. I assume you've gotten vaccinated.

262
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,720
Speaker 1: If you don't have like a condition that that renders

263
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,280
Speaker 1: you unable to get the vaccine, you're you're I. I

264
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,680
Speaker 1: think our listeners tend to be pretty responsible people. It's

265
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:38,200
Speaker 1: just not enough because of the country decided to like

266
00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:45,760
Speaker 1: Leroy Jenkins a plague and um god, Garrison, do you

267
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,640
Speaker 1: know that reference? Is that? Get that reference? I'm familiar

268
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:53,440
Speaker 1: with Leroy Jenkins. That's good. Were you born when Leroy

269
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,160
Speaker 1: Jenkins became a thing, I don't know, you would have

270
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,760
Speaker 1: been like three, would have been. Yeah, yeah, it was.

271
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,600
Speaker 1: It was deadpool that them to your attention, isn't it? No? No,

272
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,400
Speaker 1: I it came to my attention just doing general Internet. Yeah,

273
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:08,960
Speaker 1: it was one of the first. It was the first

274
00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,200
Speaker 1: meme that you could show your parents pretty much. I

275
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,440
Speaker 1: guess they were like Badger Badger, Mushroom, a couple of

276
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:16,160
Speaker 1: others in that category, but like, it was one of

277
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,800
Speaker 1: the first memes that wasn't a man's gaping asshole prolapsed.

278
00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,240
Speaker 1: But I showed my parents that all the time. I

279
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:30,000
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, there was a beautiful moment back in

280
00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,880
Speaker 1: the day with some sea a stadium. Yeah, that's what

281
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,520
Speaker 1: brought you in the medicine. This is what I saw work.

282
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:38,720
Speaker 1: They were so proud of me, like, look at look

283
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,240
Speaker 1: at our look at our boy, Look at our boy.

284
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,920
Speaker 1: He can tell us exactly why that man's asshole looks

285
00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:49,760
Speaker 1: that way. I have a weird job, I guess. One

286
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,760
Speaker 1: of my questions is, with the assumption that people are

287
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,280
Speaker 1: taking the actual plague related steps they can to reduce

288
00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:02,080
Speaker 1: their burden to the medical system, what can people realistically do?

289
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:03,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I think part of that is and this

290
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:05,960
Speaker 1: is and I'm not gonna have you to like explain

291
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,360
Speaker 1: how you can take care of your own medical treatments

292
00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,280
Speaker 1: in an emergency on a podcast. That's not the time

293
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,040
Speaker 1: or the place. Although I do think it's probably a

294
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,760
Speaker 1: good idea for people to read up on first aid

295
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,560
Speaker 1: and basic life saving emergency Like it's always a good

296
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,840
Speaker 1: idea to to have some training there. But yeah, I mean,

297
00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,400
Speaker 1: do you have other advice? You know, you're exactly right.

298
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,200
Speaker 1: The people that are listening to this podcast are totally

299
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,680
Speaker 1: on board already, and they're super supportive, and we appreciate that.

300
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,480
Speaker 1: I mean that is not unnoticed. I mean, um, you know,

301
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:43,760
Speaker 1: it's having people like, uh, outside the hospitals every now

302
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,480
Speaker 1: and then, applauding doctors. I know it's cheesy, but it's great.

303
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:51,320
Speaker 1: I'll take that over the blue angels flying overhead any day,

304
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,600
Speaker 1: you know. So it's that's that stuff is really important,

305
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,200
Speaker 1: and masking and taking care of themselves is is great,

306
00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:02,440
Speaker 1: you know. Um. The the real practical things that people

307
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,040
Speaker 1: can do, I think, uh is help contribute to sites

308
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,480
Speaker 1: that will help get the rest of the world vaccinated.

309
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,640
Speaker 1: I mean, we can definitely talk about that the question

310
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,080
Speaker 1: of boosters here versus you know, vaccines for the first

311
00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,920
Speaker 1: time elsewhere. But there That's the one thing I would

312
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,280
Speaker 1: recommend right now if you want to help, um, let's

313
00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,000
Speaker 1: put our money into places where we can get vaccines

314
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,280
Speaker 1: to other places. And I think that every little bit

315
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,640
Speaker 1: of that helps in the long run. And and that's

316
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,320
Speaker 1: the sort of thing that we could use. Other than that,

317
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I just hope that people are still going

318
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,840
Speaker 1: into medicine and in nursing. You know. That's the only

319
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,000
Speaker 1: thing I can still hope is that people who haven't

320
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,240
Speaker 1: interest in it, you know, continue to do it. And

321
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,280
Speaker 1: and for those people who are just their training, those

322
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,240
Speaker 1: years of their formative years are during this time. I

323
00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,680
Speaker 1: just want to let them know. I swear it gets better.

324
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,480
Speaker 1: It's not always gonna be like this. And if you

325
00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:01,680
Speaker 1: make it through this, you're gonna be an amazing clinician,

326
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,359
Speaker 1: You're gonna be an amazing nurse, You're gonna be an

327
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,000
Speaker 1: amazing doctor. And I really want you guys to keep

328
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,359
Speaker 1: doing it. That's that's one thing I would say to Yeah,

329
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,600
Speaker 1: I mean, and I I'll certainly add that if you're

330
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,520
Speaker 1: someone who's contemplating a medical career, please please, I mean,

331
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,919
Speaker 1: just from a there's a couple of things on that,

332
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,520
Speaker 1: like just from a perspective of what the world needs.

333
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:23,600
Speaker 1: It's what the world needs. But also, if you're listening

334
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,720
Speaker 1: to this stuff we're saying about the crumbles, about the

335
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,560
Speaker 1: possibility of the collapse, if you're someone who who foresees

336
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,080
Speaker 1: things getting potentially much more difficult in the future, not

337
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,919
Speaker 1: a lot of things more useful in a bad situation

338
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,720
Speaker 1: than somebody with medical training. I don't count on that

339
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,520
Speaker 1: getting me through the apocalypse. I'm I'm soft. I am

340
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:44,879
Speaker 1: so so. I went camping and I couldn't handle it.

341
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:46,880
Speaker 1: A couple of weeks ago, I went camping. It was awful.

342
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,880
Speaker 1: There was so much dust. It was an awful experience.

343
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,480
Speaker 1: But I just thought, if the apocalypse comes, I will

344
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,520
Speaker 1: hopefully get placed in a very nice tent because I'm

345
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,560
Speaker 1: a doctor, so I'm counting on that to get me through.

346
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:05,160
Speaker 1: There are so many dumbass boogaloo type quote unquote preppers

347
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,639
Speaker 1: who focus on the guns and the gear and the

348
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,720
Speaker 1: dried food but thrown in the shirt, throwing knives but

349
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:14,880
Speaker 1: don't even have a n I fac an individual first

350
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,800
Speaker 1: aid kit or like a tourniquet, and like they talk

351
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,720
Speaker 1: to you, talk to like like I mean, this is

352
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,560
Speaker 1: a little off topic, but like talk to combat marines

353
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,680
Speaker 1: about like their favorite person. It's always the corman. It's

354
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,560
Speaker 1: the guy who knows or the lady who knows how

355
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,000
Speaker 1: to like patch a bullet wound and whatnot. Like there's

356
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,000
Speaker 1: there's nothing more useful in any situation pretty much that

357
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,000
Speaker 1: that is dangerous than somebody who can do medicine. So please,

358
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,360
Speaker 1: if you're if you're studying to do medicine, if you're

359
00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,119
Speaker 1: contemplating becoming an e M T. Or a paramedic or

360
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 1: a nurse or whatever, good God, we need you so badly. Yeah,

361
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,199
Speaker 1: we've talked to a little bit about just in the

362
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,360
Speaker 1: medical system in general, and then we can also kind

363
00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:03,000
Speaker 1: of discuss more stuff related to how COVID's impacting certain

364
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,920
Speaker 1: areas more than others. And like, let's say someone who's

365
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,679
Speaker 1: someone who's listening, who's in one of these areas that

366
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,720
Speaker 1: it has only vaccinated, you know, not not a lot

367
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,719
Speaker 1: of people are going on with masks on, and you know,

368
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,280
Speaker 1: schools starting back up, maybe they have kids are going

369
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,119
Speaker 1: to their school system. I know in Texas they have

370
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,480
Speaker 1: you know, child deaths arising. That sounds very frightening to

371
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,160
Speaker 1: be that kind of person who, like you know, would

372
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,640
Speaker 1: like like to see that stuff happened in their state,

373
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,000
Speaker 1: but it's just not really possible. And I don't know,

374
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:31,879
Speaker 1: with so much of the rest of the world kind

375
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,320
Speaker 1: of slowly taking back restrictions, and I'm sure it feels

376
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,360
Speaker 1: very jarring to be in a situation like that and

377
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,400
Speaker 1: kind of like there's really nothing you can do right

378
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,480
Speaker 1: besides you right, because you can talk to your family,

379
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,119
Speaker 1: talk to your friends, but like overall, it's hard to

380
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,160
Speaker 1: hard to make you know, a big impact in a state,

381
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,760
Speaker 1: you know, like Texas, Alabama, like Idaho, all the ones

382
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,080
Speaker 1: that you that you were mentioning before from a medical

383
00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 1: kind of perspective, is there is there any way people

384
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,680
Speaker 1: can kind of start to talk about those things with

385
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,160
Speaker 1: their family And because the way we've been trying to

386
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,360
Speaker 1: get people take the vaccine, with the marketing we've been doing,

387
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 1: has not been super successful in these demographics. Um, do

388
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 1: you think there's other conversations that can get people to

389
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 1: slowly kind of be more, be more able to you know,

390
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,920
Speaker 1: contemplate that. Yeah, that's a that's a tough question. It's

391
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,439
Speaker 1: particularly tough if you're someone who is believes in the

392
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,920
Speaker 1: importance of vaccines and you'r or the importance of masks

393
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:32,640
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing, and you're in a place

394
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 1: where you're a minority. That is tough. The first thing

395
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 1: I'll say is definitely know that the vaccine helps. You're

396
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,440
Speaker 1: in a much better position because of the vaccine. When

397
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,400
Speaker 1: I was on the wards and I was looking at

398
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:55,720
Speaker 1: patients that they're almost all unvaccinated, those are the people

399
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,160
Speaker 1: that end up in the hospital. You can't still get

400
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,920
Speaker 1: into the hospitalize if you have the vaccine, but it's

401
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,200
Speaker 1: it's much less likely. And you know, not that these

402
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 1: people don't count, they count just as much, but if

403
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,639
Speaker 1: you don't have an underlying problem like a liver transplant

404
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 1: or some immune suppression, then you're less likely to have

405
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 1: a really bad outcome with COVID if you're vaccinated. So

406
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 1: just know that it helps. You still might get it,

407
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,120
Speaker 1: it'll suck, um, but for the most part, you're gonna

408
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 1: stay out of the hospital. And that really, I think

409
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 1: is something have a little comfort in. It really does

410
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 1: seem to work. You know. Outside of that, the schools

411
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,920
Speaker 1: thing is is a real concern for me, and I'm

412
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 1: gonna feel a lot better than We're going to be

413
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 1: in a much better position once we are able to

414
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 1: get kids vaccinated. So there's there's two things. You guys

415
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:50,199
Speaker 1: probably heard that there was, um this this committee that

416
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,400
Speaker 1: met to advise the FDA about booster shots. That's one thing.

417
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 1: So booster shots are gonna go out to people who

418
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,119
Speaker 1: need them, uh sixty five and older people at high risk,

419
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 1: people in high risk occupations. They're gonna like frontline workers.

420
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 1: So there's gonna be booster shots coming out. And then

421
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 1: the data is coming out now about five till Yeah,

422
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 1: and that's pretty promising. Um, it looks like they're gonna

423
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 1: do okay with lower doses, so they use about one

424
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: third the dose of the vaccine that the adults get

425
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 1: and it seems to work. We haven't seen much other

426
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 1: than the pre press release from uh Fightser, but you know,

427
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 1: if you really pick at it, it looks promising. So

428
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 1: I am that's something that makes me hopeful. That's something

429
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 1: I'm definitely clinging to. I think there's no way we're

430
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 1: getting out of this without vaccinating kids. That just has

431
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 1: to happen. Um. I think once that starts rolling out,

432
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,919
Speaker 1: and hopefully it will soon. I mean I don't want

433
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,120
Speaker 1: to put a date on it, but I'm hoping within

434
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 1: the next couple of months this starts happening. So you know, once,

435
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 1: once that starts happening, I'm gonna feel a lot more comfortable.

436
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 1: I think people in those situations are gonna feel a

437
00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:01,719
Speaker 1: lot more comfortable too. Yeah, the booster thing is an

438
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: interesting question to me. I mean, they're methical standpoint, particularly,

439
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 1: you know, I think I think it's not a fair

440
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:11,719
Speaker 1: narrative to say it has to be one or the other,

441
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 1: and I think people are saying that. I don't think.

442
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: I think we can do it. I think we can

443
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 1: produce enough vaccine here for people who haven't got it yet,

444
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 1: and enough for the boosters and start supplying more to

445
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 1: the world. I mean, we can do more. Our Government

446
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: Sharing Visor Maderna definitely need to do more in that regards.

447
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 1: They definitely need to do more in terms of production.

448
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: They haven't hit their goals in a lot of these places.

449
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: And but it's also not like they haven't done anything yet.

450
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: They give about like a you know, two hundred million

451
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 1: doses are being donated just this week. I think, so

452
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 1: they are doing things. That's happening. It's just we need

453
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: more of it. Everything needs we need more of it.

454
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 1: We need to ramp up production. Yeah, it's weird because,

455
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 1: like you're right, we could produce enough vaccines for the

456
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 1: places that don't have them and enough vaccines for boosters

457
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: over here, and all it would take is a couple

458
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 1: of months of our Afghana stand mad money. But we're

459
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 1: not going to do that, and so it probably will,

460
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 1: like I don't know, contribute to an issue effect. There's

461
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 1: there's a chance that it will contribute to an issue

462
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: of vaccine unavailability. But also it's not like if we

463
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 1: don't get the boosters, those vaccines will be available because

464
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 1: we're just not giving them out. Yeah, in the extent

465
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: that we need. So I yeah, I don't know, I

466
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,439
Speaker 1: understand what you're saying. I'll get the booster if they

467
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: decide to give out boosters because I like not having

468
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:40,120
Speaker 1: not plague damage or getting long COVID. Yeah. Yeah, that

469
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 1: that seems great. And a lot of the vaccine has

470
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 1: been see kind of relies. It tracks back to how

471
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 1: we've been marketing in it, and I've I've been on

472
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: the team that's like, we should stop using Fauchi because

473
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: every time Fauci goes on TV to talk about vaccines,

474
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: more people are going to do like a backfire in fact,

475
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 1: to be like, no, I'm not gonna get don't trust Fasci.

476
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: So there's a particular like marketing thing that I think

477
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: we've failed on. Like America is very good at marketing

478
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 1: when we can make money, but when it's not related

479
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 1: to getting gaining more profit. I think the government is

480
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: very bad at marketing these types of things. Um. And

481
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: on the kind of the marketing side of things, I

482
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,160
Speaker 1: don't know, this is this is kind of old news

483
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: at this point. But the whole smoll and testicals thing, um,

484
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 1: which we have you have not talked about on this

485
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 1: show about but I'm sure you have thoughts about how

486
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 1: this thing has kind of balloons, which is that can

487
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: be like, so, how how the marketing and misinformation relates

488
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: to this cool kind kind of current problem. Yeah. Yeah,

489
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: first of all, that particular story, I mean that's hilarious.

490
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 1: I mean, like this, I've never I've never seen someone's

491
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: excuse for venereal disease becomes such an international issue. Yeah,

492
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: contribute to the desk probably of hundreds of people. Um,

493
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's the marketing thing. Is a really

494
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: great question, and and and it's been driving me crazy

495
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 1: because like part of me at this point just wants

496
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: to be like, get the fucking vaccine. What the fund's

497
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 1: wrong with you? Get the vaccine part of my language

498
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: and like, um, but then the part of me knows

499
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 1: that that doesn't work. Like I do believe doctors should

500
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: be able to express their frustration. Um, they need to

501
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: be able to do that. If we can't do that

502
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: right now, I mean, it's game over. But they need

503
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: to at least have that ability where doctors can voice

504
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: their frustration with antivactors but still give them the same

505
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: high level of care that we're always going to give

506
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: them the matter what when they show up in the hospital.

507
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: But if not working to do that, we need other approaches.

508
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: I don't I don't entirely know what they are. There

509
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: are some people they're they're so far out there that

510
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 1: we're just never going to reach the people, the microchip people.

511
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 1: There's like a level of deep programming that will need

512
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: to happen to those people that we just it's it's

513
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: too exhausting to do that. You really have to, like,

514
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: if you can't scale that in any meaningful way for

515
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: the country, I think I think, Yeah, I don't know.

516
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: I think calling it the Trump vaccine was the closest

517
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: we got to have possibility, and that fucking I'm interested

518
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: in your thoughts on the fucking bright Bart article and

519
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: if you're not aware, if you're less online than us,

520
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 1: and God bless you if you are right Bart, the

521
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: which is I don't know. CNN for Fascists came up

522
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: with an article blaming the Democrats for the fact that

523
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 1: Republicans don't want to take the vaccine and saying it's

524
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: a secret liberal plot to exterminate conservatives because conservatives refused

525
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 1: to take vaccines because they're fundamentally oppositional, defiant. Um, and

526
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: like it's it's the fault of people who are telling

527
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 1: them to take the vaccine that they're not taking the

528
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: vaccine because obviously, why would you trust the liberal on anything?

529
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: But also they're trying to kill us. We're going to

530
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: lose the election because we're all dying because we refuse

531
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: to get vaccinated for a preventable disease. Anyway, how do

532
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: you feel about that guy? I don't. I don't love it.

533
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: I don't love it. Um, I'm vaguely familiar with bright Bart.

534
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: I don't know that exact because I have enough pain

535
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: in my life. But um, but you know, I do wonder.

536
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: It's like when they put out articles like this, or

537
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: when Tucker Carlson goes out and he does his thing

538
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: questioning vaccine, just asking questions about vaccines that lead to

539
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: vaccine hesitancy, Like what calculations are they doing? Are they

540
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: doing calcular? Is this just him being callous in not

541
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: giving a fun and just doing it, or is there

542
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: some calculation that him and some sort of right wing

543
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: fink tank are doing where they're like, hey, look this

544
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: sells to our audience. They love it. Let's keep doing it. Yes,

545
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: we are going to lose ex portion of our audience

546
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: because of this, but we still have plenty of audience left. Like,

547
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: I don't, I wonder how that's happening. Like it is hurting.

548
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: It is true, it is hurting them more than than

549
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: other people. It's hurting everyone. Everyone's getting affected by this,

550
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: um but there it's those states that are being affected,

551
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: the people not getting vaccinated who are listening to people

552
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: like Tucker Carlson. I don't. I don't understand what their

553
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: endgame is here, Like this is their market? Why why

554
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: not protected? And that I do not have a good

555
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,479
Speaker 1: answer for. I was hoping one of you guys would. Um.

556
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: You know, it's there's a lot going on there. I

557
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: think a decent chunk of it is the assumption that

558
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: whatever they lose in terms of dead followers won't be

559
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: worth more than continuing the cash bonanza. That is owning

560
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 1: the lips, right because that's all they that's all that's

561
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: the entirety of the right wing media. It's just owning

562
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: the lips. It's just oppositional, defiant, it's just hating anything

563
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: Democrats do. So you you kind of can't. You're a

564
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: cuck if you tell people to receive basic medical care

565
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: if Democrats are taking that basic medical care right, Um,

566
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: so it's a pride thing for a lot of them.

567
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: To two things I love is when you when you

568
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: use the word cuck or when you do Ben Shapiro's voice,

569
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: Like those are like two of my everythings that you do.

570
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: It's you're saying really well, far beyond anything rational on

571
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: the right. Um, and it's it's difficult to like I

572
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: I I think the calculation is just like I think

573
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: a lot of these guys is the same thing with

574
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: climate change. Like they're smart enough to know that they're

575
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: contributing to an uninhabitable world, but they want to cash

576
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: in first. They want to get as much as they

577
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: can out before it falls apart. And I think that's

578
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: all any of these people care about. Because I think

579
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: there are the true believers. The radio guys are true believers, right,

580
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: the radio guys who keep dying because they don't be vaccinated.

581
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: Those guys did believe that it was some sort of

582
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: weird conspiracy, it was the communist whatever, um. Clearly because

583
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: they did management level, yeah, mid management level. They don't

584
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: know all the stuff that they're being told from above

585
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: and they kind of believe it enough to where they

586
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: kill themselves for the company. I think for Tucker, it's

587
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: more a matter of like, hey, I keep making money

588
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: and I maintain my power if I If I continue

589
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: to hold this line, you you lose power, You get weaker.

590
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: It's like when Trump got booed for telling people to

591
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: take the vaccine. You know, um, yeah, crazy. You can't

592
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 1: go back with this ship. You just can't, and you

593
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: certainly can't admit to ever having been wrong. Right. Yeah, man,

594
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: it's good ship. What a what a fun note to

595
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: end of the episode on what a good society we've

596
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: built Bravo. M hm ah, well cover it. People can

597
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: find you by looking up the House of Pod. Yes,

598
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: uh was slightly less depressing, but not not super uplifting

599
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: either at this point. Uh. Follow us at the House

600
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: of Pot at Twitter, and you can listen to our

601
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: podcast pretty much anywhere you listen to podcast. We'll talk

602
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: about medical type things, but not so deep into the

603
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: woods that it's not entertaining, I hope. Yeah. Fun the woods, Yeah,

604
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: the woods. We have fun guests ranging from the world's

605
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: best medical experts to you know, you guys. The best

606
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: medical experts. You guys are right up there for medicine, right.

607
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: There's no better medicine than just a big fat pile

608
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: of cocaine. And the good thing about cocaine is it's

609
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: a sterilizing agent. So if you're worried about COVID getting

610
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: in your nasal passages, just rail cocaine before you and

611
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: after you go into the store. It's like getting a

612
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: COVID test, but more fun. Legally, I have to tell

613
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: you that's false. Well, we all have our opinions about

614
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: how cocaine works, and I have my facts. Now, if

615
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: you excuse me, I'm gonna go pick up a single

616
00:33:50,280 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: item at the grocery store. Hey, leath the listeners tag here.

617
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: Last season on Lethal Lit, you might remember I came

618
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: to Hollow Falls on a mission clearing my aunt Best's

619
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: name and making sure justice was finally served. But I

620
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,240
Speaker 1: hadn't counted on a rash of new murders tearing apart

621
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: the town. My mission put myself and my friends in danger.

622
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,879
Speaker 1: Though it wasn't all bad, I'm going to be real

623
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 1: ify Tig, I like you, but now all signs point

624
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: to a new serial killer in Hollow Falls. If this

625
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: game is just starting. You better believe I'm gonna win.

626
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 1: I'm Tig Torres and this is Lethal Lit. Catch up

627
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: on season one of the hit murder mystery podcast Lethal Lit,

628
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: a tag Torre's mystery out now, and then tune in

629
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 1: for all new thrills in season two, dropping weekly starting

630
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: February nine. Subscribe now to never miss an episode. Listen

631
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:56,919
Speaker 1: to Leave the Lit on the I Heart Radio app,

632
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm

633
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick, and where the hosts

634
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,919
Speaker 1: of the science podcast Stuff to Blow Your Mind, where

635
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: every week we get to explore some of the weirdest

636
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: questions in the universe, like if sci fi teleportation was possible,

637
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: how would it square with the multitudes of organisms that

638
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: inhabit our human bodies? Can we find evidence of emotions

639
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: in animals like bees, ants, and crayfish? How would an

640
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 1: interplanetary civilization function just free will exist? Stuff to Blow

641
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: Your Mind examines neurological quandaries, cosmic mysteries, evolutionary marvels, and

642
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: the wonders of techno history. Basically, this show is the

643
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: altar where we worship the weirdness of reality. If anybody

644
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: ever told you you ask the weirdest questions, it is

645
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: time to come join us in the place where you belong.

646
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 1: The Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast New episodes publish

647
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: every Tuesday and Thursday, with bonus episodes on Saturdays. Listen

648
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the I Heart

649
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

650
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 1: Look for your children's eyes to see the true magic

651
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You

652
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,439
Speaker 1: look and see a tree, They see the wrinkled face

653
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 1: of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They

654
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: see treasure and pebbles, They see a windy path that

655
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: could lead to adventure, and they see you. They're fearless. Guide.

656
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 1: Is this fascinating world? Find a forest near you and

657
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: start exploring and discover the forest dot Org brought to

658
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: you by the United States Forest Service and the ad Council.

659
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: Welcome It could Happen Here pod, a podcast that is

660
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 1: today about the fact that ten years ago it did happen.

661
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 1: And when when I when I say it did happen,

662
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 1: I mean we occupied an extremely large number of places,

663
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: and we did so in interesting and incredibly bizarre ways.

664
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: And with with with me to talk about this is

665
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: Garrison as always. I like that you used the Twitter

666
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 1: handle for our podcast, not the actual name, but that's fine.

667
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: Where can it where can it go for it? But

668
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: helloon with me? I have I have my special guest,

669
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: Vicky Ostrowil, who is an agitator, who is a writer,

670
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: who has done many many things, probably most famously writing

671
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: the book in Defense of Looting UM from Bold Press,

672
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 1: Bold type Press, bult Type Press. Yeah, very good book.

673
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: People got very bad, people got very angry. Yeah, thank you.

674
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: It's it's really I'm really excited to be here to

675
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: to talk about the the anniversary of Occupy from basically

676
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 1: you know when I when I all got this whole

677
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: train rolling, so yeah, and the the other the other

678
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: thing um that that is probably relevant here is that

679
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: Vicky was one of the first people at Occupy and

680
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: and little correct me if I'm wrong about this. I

681
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:54,800
Speaker 1: found an oblique reference to this in one of the

682
00:37:54,840 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: things I read. You facilitated the first meeting. Yes, the yeah,

683
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: I got this on the record now, yeah, I I

684
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 1: uh yeah, during UM during the general New York City

685
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 1: General Assembly, it was called in August. Um, there was

686
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: you know, uh, ad Busters hopefully called for a general assembly,

687
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: and you know, a bunch of us sort of went

688
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: down there and there was a tanky party there um

689
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,320
Speaker 1: doing a general assembly, which was just them on speakers,

690
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 1: UM doing their regular ranting. Um hadn't changed much in

691
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: ten years, um and uh and we um. Yeah, so

692
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: a bunch of us just went and sat down, uh,

693
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: you know, to the side of it, and started an

694
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 1: actual general assembly. And by by by happenstance, I I

695
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 1: associated that meeting and it was the first and last

696
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: Occupy meeting AMATE facilitating. Yeah. Okay, so I want to

697
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 1: rule back a little bit too, just before the start

698
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 1: of occupied because yeah, the more be thinking about this,

699
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: the more have just realized that two thousand eleven was

700
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: just a profoundly weird time in a lot of ways.

701
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: I think people have forgotten, like the entire American security

702
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: state is at this point being terrorized. When you joint

703
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: anonymous lull sick hacking campaign called anti Sick, the symbol

704
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: of which he is a guy in a guy fox

705
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: mask wearing a monocle and a top hat, and this

706
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: was just like normal, Yes, this was the thing that

707
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, it's it's the it's

708
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: it's the it's the anti sick top hat, full faced

709
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: guy in a monocle. Fun fact about that, just before

710
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: we forget David Gramer Rest in Peace, who was there

711
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: in the early days organizing claimed and um that he

712
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 1: had he had heard and talked to the some of

713
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 1: the like overheard the police talking about the reason they

714
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: didn't sweep the occupying encampment the first day when we

715
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 1: were pretty weak, frankly, or the first week, was because

716
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 1: there were a bunch of guy fox masks and they

717
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: were scared. They were scared they were going to get hacked.

718
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: If they were scared, they were gonna hack them and

719
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: steal there. Yeah. So so it was a weird time indeed. Yeah. Yeah.

720
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: And I think the the other thing that's, you know,

721
00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: I think important about this time period if we were

722
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: looking back at what occupied was is that this so

723
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 1: this is this is three years after the the financial collapse,

724
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 1: and you know, so I think this is you know,

725
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: in the room to two eleven, there's been a few

726
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: there's been a few protests, there's been there was a

727
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 1: big thing in Grease in two thousand eight that was

728
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: kind of related, kind of unrelated. But I think in

729
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: my sense of you know, I was like, I don't know,

730
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: I was like thirteen. I was like I was like

731
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: an actual baby child. But my sense of it was

732
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 1: kind of just like like there's that there's this like

733
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: sense that everyone just kind of waiting for something to happen. Yeah,

734
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,399
Speaker 1: and it's like hadn't and it's just like kept going

735
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: and kept going and kept going. And then you know,

736
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 1: and then and then Genesia starts and suddenly there's you

737
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: know there there there's Protestant Tenessia, there's pertest Egypt. There's

738
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: like people fighting tanks in the street in Bahrain, and

739
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: you know, and this this is you know that this

740
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: this becomes down as the spring and it starts to

741
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: spread to a lot of places. And VICKI I want

742
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: to talk. I want to ask you about this because

743
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 1: you you were in Spain when it started started. There

744
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: we'll talk about what what what was going on there?

745
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: And yeah, so I wasn't there when it started. Um,

746
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 1: but but but yes, um, basically you know, and then

747
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: and I want to shout out like there were there

748
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: were a bunch of like movements like in two thousand eight,

749
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: right after the crash, there were a bunch of protests,

750
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: like outside Wall Street. They were very small, but they

751
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: were like sort of the like produced some images. And

752
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,919
Speaker 1: then there was you know, in two thousand uh nine,

753
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: there's the Oscar Grant rebellion in Oakland, and you have

754
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: the Madison occupation earlier in two thousand eleven, um, where

755
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 1: they were the workers unions took over the state House. Yeah,

756
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 1: everyone does. It was actually really important at the time. Um.

757
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, so so you know, so I think I'm

758
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: glad you brought up Greece because I think actually Greece

759
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 1: really that that sort of anarchist rebellion in two thousand

760
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: eight thou nine really kicked off the cycle in a

761
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: certain way, but also didn't quite It wasn't quite the

762
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 1: first domino, you know. It was sort of more of

763
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: a like forecast. So yeah, so Arab spring, uh you know,

764
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: is huge. It's this huge, huge event, and the US

765
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 1: media is thing it because obviously like these sort of

766
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: old you know, quote unquote Marxist dictators are falling, um,

767
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 1: and so of course the US is like all about it, um,

768
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: which of course later later on the return of the

769
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: tankies will use to um to confuse everyone on the

770
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 1: US left and destroy all solidarity with Syria anyway. Um,

771
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: but that's neither hearner there. Um. So then then in

772
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 1: then in that summer, um, you get this this wave

773
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: of early summer like May in June. In fact, the

774
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 1: fifteenth of May was when the movement started in Spain

775
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 1: and then it starts student again in Greece. And it

776
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 1: was similar to occupy and that there was these people

777
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: coming together in these sort of encampments in the center

778
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: of the city. Um. I don't know if people remember

779
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 1: um or or know this history economically, but Spain and

780
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 1: Greece had recently been sort of going through these like

781
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: big big booms economic booms just for about five or

782
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 1: six years that turned out to be real estate bubbles

783
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,359
Speaker 1: funded by their entry into the EU, and two thousand

784
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: and Age just smashed that and they were just like

785
00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,959
Speaker 1: incredibly impoverished. I mean, like Spain was facing unemployment, Greece

786
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: was like similar. Spain has recovered more than Greece has

787
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: in the intervening years, but it's still bad. Um So

788
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 1: so yeah, so you had all these it was it

789
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: was you know, predominantly young folks who were um, you

790
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: know had been pushed out of the economy, who had

791
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 1: been pushed out of their homes, whose families had loft

792
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 1: their homes. Um gathering together and it was all over

793
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 1: both countries and it was huge. Um. I happened to

794
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:24,760
Speaker 1: just be in Barcelona. I had been on a planned

795
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: vacation with some friends. Um you know that we had

796
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: we had planned like sort of six months earlier when

797
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 1: it all popped off. And I had also just started

798
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: my writing. Um, I would say career, but that's very generous. UM.

799
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 1: I had started technically being paid for writing things. And

800
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: they were like, oh, right about it, Like, let's like

801
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: cover it while you're there. And because no one in

802
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: the US was talking about what was going on in

803
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 1: Spain when my article popped up, like and this is

804
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 1: like this is really strange. But it was like the

805
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: early days of Twitter as well, um two eleven, Like

806
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 1: I guess Twitter started two nine or something, and so like,

807
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 1: so the the one of the accounts, the camp tweets

808
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: out my article. So I went there the next day.

809
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: I was like, I wrote that article and then I

810
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 1: was like embedded for a week, and I was there

811
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 1: for like kind of the height of the popular power

812
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: of the movement in Barcelona only for a week, but

813
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: I was there on the day when there was a

814
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: two and a half million person march through Barcelona. UM

815
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 1: just like still probably the biggest march I've ever been

816
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: part of it and probably who ever will be UM

817
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: was like la And so you know, so that goes

818
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 1: on for for a few months in Greece and Barcelona,

819
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: it sort of hits similar limits that occupy would eventually hit,

820
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: which is that like you know that that if you

821
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: can take the space away from people, that's that's the

822
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: common ground, and like you can't really have the movement

823
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: without the encampment. And also all the way in which

824
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: the camps sort of force a kind of internal naval

825
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 1: gazing and people like get really obsessed with maintaining the

826
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: camp rather than the struggle with the city at large.

827
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 1: All of those, all of those contradictions sort of like

828
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 1: came up in Spain and Greece as well. But at

829
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 1: the time, you know, I was there for the height

830
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: of it. I come back to New York, I'm like,

831
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: this is going to happen in the US, like it

832
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: has to. UM. I think a lot of folks who

833
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: had been watching felt that way as well. Um. I

834
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: actually took part in this thing called bloomberg Ville, which

835
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, fifty people on a sidewalk, um was

836
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,320
Speaker 1: from Michael Bloomberg, right, Um, fifty people on a sidewalk.

837
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: Fifty people was general. I was like, when we were

838
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: doing really well and mostly fifteen of us, It's like

839
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: fifteen of us on a flidewalk um in the financial district,

840
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: like getting yelled at by cops, um, you know, sleeping

841
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: on cardboard, you know, occupy style, but without any attention

842
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: or solidarity. Um. And but because I had been in

843
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: Barcelona and I still have these carbrads in Barcelona, I

844
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, we're doing it in New York.

845
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 1: So we had this thing where bloomberg Ville, which is

846
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,880
Speaker 1: like twenty people like got to talk to a general

847
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 1: assembly in Barcelona at the height of its power, like

848
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: on a like internet link, like a really early internet link,

849
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: you know. Um, and you know so so so. So

850
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 1: there was all this energy that was happening. And then

851
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: I think, really crucially, the London riots pop off, and

852
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: that doesn't get talked about very much anymore, partially because

853
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: the UK left really stabbed. Here's the back during that

854
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: and and have and and repressed the memory of it

855
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 1: largely UM, and have suffered ever since, in my opinion,

856
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: strategically UM. But you know that was for us in

857
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,399
Speaker 1: the US, that was huge. It was huge watching UM,

858
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 1: watching those riots unfold. Like you know, again, this was

859
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: like early live streaming, so like we were like watching

860
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:19,800
Speaker 1: live feeds of the riots, you know, which is like

861
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: it was not a thing that you could really do

862
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: without a TV before. There was just like there was

863
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff going on that felt exciting and

864
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 1: and it was and really important and inevitable that it

865
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 1: would come to the US because things were so messed

866
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: up over here. I think we should talk about what

867
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: a general assembly actually is because I think a lot

868
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: of people aren't. We're going to have like never actually

869
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 1: ran into what exactly is going on, or have sort

870
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 1: of forgotten in the last ten years after this sort

871
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: of fallen out of favor. Sure, yeah, I mean it's UM.

872
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: It was never my favorite either, honestly, but it's a

873
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: it's a meeting style UM designed UM. It actually does

874
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 1: largely actually come from from European anarchist traditions, UM from

875
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,359
Speaker 1: from Spain in Greece, but as as many of us know, UM,

876
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 1: A lot of those traditions go back further UM and

877
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: have crossed crossed the water general somebody's actually there's a

878
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: long history of them in indigenous communities in Turtle Island,

879
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 1: for example. So it's an old meeting style UM, in

880
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: which um, the Quakers also the Quakers UM famously also

881
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 1: sort of uh sort of co opted it from from

882
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: indigenous folks out here on the East coast. UM. But UM,

883
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 1: it's a meeting style in which, uh, you know, with

884
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 1: the exception of a facilitator which is occasionally but not

885
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: always present, UM, everyone is able to speak UM together.

886
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: There is something, there's an agenda sometimes, but it's basically

887
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: a meeting designed where everyone present in the meeting has

888
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 1: like an equal voice, And it's not really designed generally

889
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:49,760
Speaker 1: for UM decision making specifically or in with like really

890
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: specific goals in mind. Often, although there will be sort

891
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,799
Speaker 1: of like things that are trying to get settled UM.

892
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 1: But it's it's it's it's designed to allow, you know,

893
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,800
Speaker 1: a very very multi vocal approach and for everyone to

894
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 1: sort of put in their their thoughts and their ideas

895
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: UM and often is connected although not necessarily, but is

896
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: often connected to consensus UM operation where UM things can't

897
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,399
Speaker 1: get sort of decided on unless everyone sort of agrees UM.

898
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 1: And in occupy UM, that was the general assembly was

899
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 1: sort of UM was a bit controversial because it was

900
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 1: just whoever showed up obviously participates in it. So, you know,

901
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 1: unlike unlike you know, an organizational meeting where you you know,

902
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 1: everyone knows each other and you have to have a

903
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: you know, you have to be there with an invite

904
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: or whatever. UM, you know, whatever cranky wing nut UM

905
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: wanted to show up could UM. And that had pluses

906
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 1: and minuses. It was charming sometimes, but it was also

907
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: very frustrating UM. And in in New York where I

908
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 1: was UM, it was made almost impossible to function by

909
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: this thing called the people's mike UM oh, which I

910
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,320
Speaker 1: think still happens sometimes people even mike check UM and

911
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 1: and then everyone repeats what was said. But that means

912
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,280
Speaker 1: that it takes four times as long to talk as normal.

913
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 1: So when you have a wing nut, you know, like

914
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 1: advocating for wrong Paul, and then you've got thirty people

915
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 1: echoing him every four yards, it makes it makes discussion

916
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 1: completely impossible. And a microhistory of the people's mic. The

917
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 1: reason that happened was because in the first week in

918
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 1: Zukkati Park Um, whenever we got on a megaphone, police

919
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 1: would come and arrest whoever was on the megaphone because

920
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: you weren't allowed to use amplified sound in New York.

921
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 1: And one organizer was like, oh no, no, we can

922
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 1: like use the people's mic. We can repeat back to

923
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 1: each other. And this is when we they're still mostly

924
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: like thirty to forty people in the park at any

925
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,359
Speaker 1: one time. It's very small. That didn't feel so bad,

926
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: but then when the movement really got big, the people's

927
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 1: mike became completely unwieldy and also was a response to

928
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: a was a cowardly response to police repression frankly UM,

929
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 1: and was a way of So the peopil's mic is is,

930
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: in my opinion, reactionary form anyway, that is hit. So

931
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: it's been ten years. I haven't been able to complain

932
00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 1: about this in like eight years, Thank you so much,

933
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 1: UM anyway, So yeah, the general Assembly is just a

934
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: meeting form um that often often associated with anarchy, anarchist

935
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 1: practice or radical democratic practice um in which sort of

936
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: consensus is aimed for by allowing everyone to speak there

937
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 1: much I would say. Yeah. And so this, this, I

938
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,280
Speaker 1: think gets us back to where we open this episode,

939
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: which is Adbusters calls an event with literally no plans

940
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: to like do anything. They're just like, yeah, everyone, we're

941
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: occupied in Wall Street. And then yeah, and you know,

942
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,479
Speaker 1: as it's talking about the beginning of it, you guys

943
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 1: basically hijack well sort of, I mean, so Adbusters. Adbusters

944
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: doesn't show up, like you said, there's I've never met

945
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 1: an Adbusters person, um. And it was funny, like we

946
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:46,399
Speaker 1: would do jokes about it. But I think it's also

947
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:48,919
Speaker 1: thinking about this in preparation for this interview. It's also

948
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 1: interesting because Adbusters and their culture jamming is kind of

949
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: like one of the results of the sort of altar

950
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,720
Speaker 1: globalization movement of the like late nineties and early two thousands,

951
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 1: the summit hopping stuff um, the enarchy movement of like

952
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,319
Speaker 1: one generation ahead of occupy UM. So I think it's

953
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: sort of appropriate that Adbusters sort of, like you know,

954
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 1: was present in this legacy in a certain way, and

955
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: a lot of those organizers were as well. But yes,

956
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,280
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I did I just jump in for you. No, no, no, okay,

957
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 1: um the yeah, so so so so, a bunch of

958
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: people I don't actually know who calls for an August second,

959
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,320
Speaker 1: you know, general assembly to talk about the call for

960
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 1: September seventeenth to occupy Wall Street. UM. And at that

961
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: at that point, that's when the thing I was describing

962
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 1: earlier like happens where where UM, you know, we a

963
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 1: bunch of folks and and I really want to underline

964
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 1: that most of them were people who had been in

965
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 1: Spain or Greece. UM. David Graber was also. There was

966
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 1: like a lot of old heads. There was like a

967
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: there was a comrade from Japan. UM. It was a

968
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: very international crew who had like had experience in these

969
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 1: movements over the summer. UM came and had this General

970
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 1: Assembly and sort of ran it that way and broke out.

971
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: We had we broke off working groups and then there

972
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: was meetings sort of once a week and then working

973
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,280
Speaker 1: group meets within that UM and general assemblies from August

974
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 1: second ttil September seventeenth, at which point, UM, you know,

975
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 1: occupy the day, the day that Adbusters had caused for

976
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 1: actually happened. So my my impression of this, and I

977
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 1: was I was very small. I had very limited idea

978
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: of what was going on. The way I remember in

979
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 1: the media is that like the there, the media was

980
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 1: weirdly interested in it in a way that I've never

981
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:28,280
Speaker 1: seen them. I've never seen them cover another social movement

982
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 1: that wasn't like literally burning their offices down, And it

983
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 1: was like it was like in the beginning, it was

984
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, obviously the right wing media is

985
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: losing their minds, but they were kind of kind of

986
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: supportive of it, and I think, I don't know, I

987
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 1: you thinking about this. One of the things that that

988
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 1: happens in both in both Greece and in Spain is

989
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:52,760
Speaker 1: that the product movement of the squares is these electoral movements,

990
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: and these electoral movements just fail like catastrophically, like Starsia

991
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 1: takes power, like like the they like you know, they

992
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 1: they have they have they have a like their their

993
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 1: finance minister is a left communist. He's like he is

994
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: the most fire left person ever like to hold office

995
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 1: since like the Spanish anarchists in ninety nineteen thirty six,

996
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 1: and they employed austerity. Anyways, in Spain, you get put

997
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 1: demos and it's like wow, okay, you have you know,

998
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 1: they had this thing called the electoral war machine. They're

999
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 1: they're gonna take over the Spantish but because something they

1000
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 1: just it collapsed. It just doesn't work. They've they've never

1001
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 1: like they've they've they've they've never taken power. They've never

1002
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: really got anywhere. They they successfully evicted a bunch of

1003
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 1: squats in Catalonia. But yeah, but and I think this

1004
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 1: is my impression if it was that I think the

1005
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 1: US media thought they could they could do this to

1006
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 1: occupy and and I think they kind of it's weird

1007
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 1: because looking so you know, like I I come in

1008
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:46,280
Speaker 1: and like to to this kind of stuff around on seventeen,

1009
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 1: and I think it it's like it weirdly worked. But

1010
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: it worked because they were able to group the anti

1011
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: occupy people. So it's like, yeah, and so they did

1012
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: finally get their like cadre of like pseudo left organizers

1013
00:53:58,040 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 1: so they could used to build a democratic party. It's

1014
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 1: just it is like Jocobin and then I'll think the whole,

1015
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: the whole sort of anti occupy group. Yeah, so those

1016
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: folks were actually UM active during Occupy UM, critiquing the

1017
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 1: people who now most loudly UM claim the legacy of

1018
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: Occupy UM. You know, as you said, Jacobin, a lot

1019
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: of those sort of social democratic groups um. At the time, UM,

1020
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 1: and those of us who were there, remember they hated Occupy.

1021
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,240
Speaker 1: They would show up, but they like would critique it constantly.

1022
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 1: They would write all these articles about how it was terrible,

1023
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 1: there were no demands, it was too disorganized. And then

1024
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 1: I think, you know, when Black Revolt got put on

1025
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: the table, they were like, bring back Occupy. We liked

1026
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 1: that better. But but I think to be as harsh

1027
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 1: as possible, but um, I think like, um, you know, yes,

1028
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: there was there was a lot of media coverage. It

1029
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 1: didn't feel super friendly at the time. Um, there was

1030
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 1: a lot of There was a lot of media coverage,

1031
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:51,760
Speaker 1: Like the media was very curious, it was very interested,

1032
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: but a lot of that coverage was like why do

1033
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 1: they have no demands? Like why are they so disorganized?

1034
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 1: Why are they so smelly? Whatever? Like there was a

1035
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 1: lot of like there was lot of slander in the press,

1036
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 1: but also a lot of attention, um, which you know,

1037
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 1: I turned turned out was as good as you could get,

1038
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: but at the time didn't didn't feel very good. Particularly

1039
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, but yes, those those forces, those forces

1040
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 1: were already present um in you know, in in occupy itself, um,

1041
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,839
Speaker 1: you know, sort of denouncing it um for its disorganization

1042
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 1: um and then eventually claiming that it was the reason

1043
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,799
Speaker 1: that Bernie Sanders happened, um, which isn't totally wrong. Yeah,

1044
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: I want to be really clear, like I think, and

1045
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 1: I think what we'll get into this more. But I

1046
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:33,840
Speaker 1: think like the thing that about the thing that was

1047
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:35,839
Speaker 1: important about occupy and the thing that the people who

1048
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,239
Speaker 1: in my opinion, like my comrades during Occupy or people

1049
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 1: I meet who were like doing Occupy stuff but like

1050
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 1: who I didn't know, but like now we I you know,

1051
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 1: I roll with them. Most of us have the have

1052
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:48,840
Speaker 1: the you know, the analysis, like it was really important

1053
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 1: that we were doing politics in the street. It was

1054
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 1: really important that we were back together they were talking politics.

1055
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 1: And then there were really really intense, extreme limits to

1056
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 1: what Occupy could have done. UM. And I think Oakland

1057
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 1: really pushed those um and and you know, and got

1058
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 1: to those but um. And I think the folks who

1059
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 1: are like, no, no, Occupy was good at the time,

1060
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 1: we're like Occupy is terrible. UM. And I think that's

1061
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 1: worth notice noting and thinking about. So I think, yeah,

1062
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 1: before we sort of going into talk a bit about

1063
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 1: what happened to Oakland to talk about some of their

1064
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 1: stuff so on on day to day basis, like what

1065
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 1: is occupy actually doing? Because I think that's also been

1066
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 1: sort of lost in this whole, Like everyone remembers like

1067
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 1: the slogans and everyonebers fact that there's a thing, but

1068
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 1: you know, like that there's there's a bunch of working

1069
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 1: groups and they're doing things like what what was that

1070
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 1: like like day to day? And then I sort of

1071
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 1: brought a lovell yeah so so um So, first of all,

1072
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 1: again I was only in New York. I spent some

1073
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 1: time at Occupied Boston as well. UM, but like I

1074
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 1: don't have a sense of what other places were like,

1075
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 1: so I really can't, I mean other than having heard

1076
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:48,840
Speaker 1: from people. So I want to be very clear that

1077
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: I'm like mostly addressing that. Um. I think the thing

1078
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 1: that was going on was that the Zakati Park, like

1079
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 1: the park was like total chaos. Um. Part of that

1080
00:56:57,320 --> 00:56:59,840
Speaker 1: was because there was a drum circle that basically was

1081
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 1: owing twenty four hours a day um there, which meant

1082
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: that whenever you were down there and it was like

1083
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 1: a canyon. Scotty Park is surrounded by skyscrapers, so it

1084
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 1: was just this incredible cacophony all the time, um, which

1085
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: I think was cool. It really ruined a lot of

1086
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 1: finance bros, like like like orally with an a there

1087
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 1: um but I think like, but it also was pretty

1088
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 1: intense and unpleasant. Sometimes you were like please stop, oh

1089
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 1: my god, like that's at one point in general assembly,

1090
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: I think decided that drums were like only acceptable during

1091
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 1: certain hours, like near the end of the movement, like

1092
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 1: the drums the drum circle got reproached, when in fact

1093
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: they were like actually the biggest agents of chaos in Zuccoti,

1094
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 1: which is another important lesson, but um, yeah, I think so.

1095
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 1: So you know. Also, because I had been in bloomberg Ville,

1096
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: because I've been in Barcelona, I didn't invest myself very

1097
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: heavily in camp management stuff, so I mostly was doing

1098
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 1: um work. One of the things that I think it's

1099
00:57:55,760 --> 00:58:00,120
Speaker 1: forgotten about is that there were snake marches basically three

1100
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: or four a day every day after after the first

1101
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 1: week when we were really small, when it got big,

1102
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 1: they were just constant, constant marches through the city, just

1103
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:11,919
Speaker 1: like always going off, like you would run and you'd

1104
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 1: be on one march you run into another march, like

1105
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 1: on a Saturday or Sunday, when like people were really

1106
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 1: like out there like it was, it was really like

1107
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 1: there was a lot of mayhem. There would be big

1108
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 1: planned marches that would then be bigger. Um. So there

1109
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 1: was like a lot of like, um, what people now

1110
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 1: would call direct action, what I would call largely like

1111
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: sort of symbolic practice for direct action. Mostly, UM, I

1112
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 1: don't mind, I like marches. I certainly got my miles

1113
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 1: in then like I don't feel like I need to

1114
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 1: do that again. But um, but you know, so then

1115
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 1: at the camp people were just living there. There were

1116
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 1: a lot of like a lot of punks, a lot

1117
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 1: of like you know, a lot of homeless folks obviously,

1118
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:49,439
Speaker 1: and some and some encampments had more at a higher

1119
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 1: concentration about the house people. Some in New York because

1120
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 1: of all the media spectacle and all the money that

1121
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 1: came in. We had a lot of nonprofit drifters by

1122
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 1: the end in the encampment. But there's also like a library, um,

1123
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 1: a free library with all these books that like would

1124
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 1: be donated. Um, there's a lot of like you know,

1125
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 1: political agitation. There were people standing around the Um, the

1126
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 1: you know the corners of the park, you know, with

1127
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 1: with signs and you're yelling at people. And it's also

1128
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 1: important to remember that like Zuccatti Park in New York

1129
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 1: is tiny. It's tiny. We originally wanted to do it

1130
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 1: on in this big plaza like City Bank plaza. Um,

1131
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 1: and the cops have heard about that and fence it off.

1132
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 1: So on the seventeenth we just like we just, um,

1133
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 1: what's the word we get? We we did a oh

1134
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 1: my god football metaphors we called an audible thank you.

1135
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 1: So we said, Zuccatti is this tiny little park. It's

1136
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,439
Speaker 1: incredibly dense, and it's surrounded by you know, like I said,

1137
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: to skyscrapers, it's in this really weird part of the

1138
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:44,960
Speaker 1: city that no one would ever spend any time and

1139
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 1: if they didn't have to otherwise. Um. So that's sort

1140
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 1: of So there's all this stuff going on, and then

1141
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 1: they're all these their general assemblies twice a day, um, which,

1142
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 1: as I said, in New York, we're particularly unhelpful. Um.

1143
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 1: But I think anarchists and a lot of cities we

1144
00:59:58,240 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 1: have talked to you, like I had a comrade down

1145
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 1: in DC one in Denver, they sort of said that

1146
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 1: the general assemblies either quickly like got shifted or got

1147
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 1: or became irrelevant. UM. I think the general sumblies were

1148
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 1: not we're not in the end where we're symbolically important

1149
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:15,000
Speaker 1: but not but not really driving force um of my

1150
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 1: experience UM. And then there would be there would be,

1151
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:18,760
Speaker 1: like I said, there'd be a lot of organizing outside

1152
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 1: of the park. There'd be a lot of like meetings

1153
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 1: and you know, talks and UM, direct actions and marches UM.

1154
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:30,200
Speaker 1: And then there would be you know, uh, I guess

1155
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:31,960
Speaker 1: that's kind of the extent of it, right, is that

1156
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 1: there was like a lot of direct action that but

1157
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 1: there was always this park where you could go and

1158
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 1: like run into people and like hook up with people,

1159
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 1: meet people and like do a weird thing. And I

1160
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 1: think that was really like the heart of the movement

1161
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 1: was the fact that there was this place you could

1162
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 1: go meet someone and like link into something weird and

1163
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:50,760
Speaker 1: maybe cool and maybe not it doesn't matter, but like

1164
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 1: there was always something to do kind of and it

1165
01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 1: was constant, was like this or twenty four hour right

1166
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:57,680
Speaker 1: like experience. And I think that was really what um,

1167
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 1: what separated it from from are from other movement waves

1168
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 1: that we've had, we've had since um and was was

1169
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 1: was probably I think it's greatest strength in many ways. Yeah,

1170
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 1: I think that that was That was the the impression

1171
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:14,440
Speaker 1: that I got. And part of this also was when

1172
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 1: I when I was in college, like every once in

1173
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 1: a while, you just get assigned like some person writing

1174
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:23,200
Speaker 1: but occupy, and it was like most of them were

1175
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:26,880
Speaker 1: just extremely cranky about the whole thing. But sure, you know,

1176
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 1: one of one of the things I think was interesting

1177
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 1: about it is that everyone seemed to eree, at least

1178
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 1: to some extent, that part of what was going on

1179
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 1: was that it's it's it's this way to do I

1180
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:41,640
Speaker 1: don't know if I had any formations quite the right

1181
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 1: word for it, but it's it's this way to sort

1182
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 1: of like rebuild social connections and rebuild like social sort

1183
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 1: of bonds in a way that just had you know,

1184
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 1: as public space becomes just the cops. And like there's

1185
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 1: there's a table in Chinatown that I like called the

1186
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 1: cop Table. Well I'm really mad about that, Like, because

1187
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 1: this is Chicago, chin To, I would like go there

1188
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:05,920
Speaker 1: staring from the library and there's a sign sign on

1189
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:08,640
Speaker 1: the table that says if you loiterer at this table,

1190
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 1: you will be arrested. It's like this is a picnic table,

1191
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 1: Like the cops are you. This table is threatening that

1192
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 1: it is going to arrest you if you use it

1193
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 1: for what's using you know, for what you're supposed to

1194
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 1: use tables for. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think

1195
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:24,480
Speaker 1: I think that's right. I think like it was, you know,

1196
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 1: there was a lot of UM at the time. A

1197
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 1: lot of people were talking about UM uh embarrassingly about

1198
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 1: heart and negrees sort of like multitude stuff. Really really

1199
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 1: a much better book that was important was also UM,

1200
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:39,320
Speaker 1: David Graber's debt UM. But I think, like, you know,

1201
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 1: and there was like a lot of like people saying

1202
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:44,600
Speaker 1: things about like the Agora you know, UM democracy list

1203
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 1: sort of political the political encounter space of encounter UM,

1204
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:50,640
Speaker 1: and that stuff wasn't all wrong. Like I mean, I'm

1205
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 1: sort of being a little sarcastic with a lot of it,

1206
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:55,120
Speaker 1: but like, but I think, like, like there there was

1207
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, UM part of how we

1208
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:02,800
Speaker 1: should I think we should understand UM, the over discussed

1209
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 1: under under you know, like over analyzed word neoliberalism like

1210
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 1: has largely become meaningless. One of the things I should

1211
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 1: I think I think it's valuable for understanding is a

1212
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 1: process by which capitalism responded to the Long Sixties by

1213
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 1: disorganizing its production process such to the Long Sixties could

1214
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:21,080
Speaker 1: never happen again, right, So like like the four the

1215
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:25,840
Speaker 1: the control the like the concentration of workers within within

1216
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 1: production in such a way that they could be agitated

1217
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 1: by students and then like sort of radically unionized wildcat

1218
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:34,600
Speaker 1: and sort of like almost overthrow a government, right Like

1219
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:37,920
Speaker 1: the neoliberalism is like you know it smashes the unions, yes,

1220
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:42,720
Speaker 1: but it also also like distributes out the active production, right,

1221
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 1: so that so that that's not so easily done. And

1222
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 1: I think one of the real problems of you know

1223
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 1: that was facing social movement, um you know in the

1224
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 1: in the period, you know, the long period, like you know,

1225
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 1: you had stuff like in the U s again that

1226
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 1: this is where you know the best, but like you know,

1227
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:59,080
Speaker 1: you have the l A uprising which is huge, um

1228
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 1: and you have you know, the summit hopping movement and

1229
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:05,160
Speaker 1: anti globalization, which you know what could attack a target.

1230
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:08,480
Speaker 1: But there wasn't really a sense of like how it

1231
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:12,440
Speaker 1: felt hard to do a local struggle um beyond like

1232
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:16,440
Speaker 1: literally like a revolutionary riot like l A, which you know,

1233
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 1: you can't really precipitate. UM. I mean you can't really

1234
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 1: precipitate a movement either, obviously. But I think like but like,

1235
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:25,320
Speaker 1: but like uh, a political political movement, a form of

1236
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 1: political organizing that didn't require something on the level of

1237
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 1: George Floyd, which is what the l A rebellion was, right, UM.

1238
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 1: But that also didn't require, like, uh, an action from

1239
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:36,920
Speaker 1: capital that you were like striking against, right like the

1240
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 1: the uh you know, the Summits or whatever. UM. And

1241
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 1: that that again and like all of these eras are

1242
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 1: very important. This is not to like, you know, obviously

1243
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 1: like this is with with respect for those movements. UM,

1244
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:51,040
Speaker 1: but yeah, we felt I think it felt like we

1245
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:52,760
Speaker 1: were in a political wilderness. And I think that that,

1246
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 1: like UM Occupy really and the movement of the squares globally,

1247
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 1: I think UM really like demonstrated that it was possible

1248
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:04,720
Speaker 1: to practice a kind of street politics even without UM,

1249
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:08,439
Speaker 1: you know, a shop floor where you can organize even

1250
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 1: without UM, you know, a a a capital p party

1251
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 1: to organize within UM. And I think that was really important.

1252
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:17,400
Speaker 1: I think it also scared a lot of people who

1253
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 1: and and continues to who are committed to those politics

1254
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:24,280
Speaker 1: um and um to the twenty century workers movement or

1255
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 1: the nineteenth and twenty century labor movement, which they somehow

1256
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:29,520
Speaker 1: fantasize will come back, um if they just wish hard

1257
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:31,880
Speaker 1: enough and write net books or whatever. Um. And I

1258
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 1: think like, um so, I think that was powerful. I

1259
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:38,640
Speaker 1: also think like like, yeah, sorry, we can move on

1260
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 1: to legacy later. But yes, I think that was Like,

1261
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:41,800
Speaker 1: I think that was very much like an important thing

1262
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:46,080
Speaker 1: was was just like and you know, um, I graduated

1263
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:48,880
Speaker 1: college in two thousand nine, um so I was like

1264
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:51,200
Speaker 1: part of that millennial generation that like, you know, had

1265
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:54,440
Speaker 1: gone into incredibly deep debt, Like we'd have a college

1266
01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:56,360
Speaker 1: degree and then like the bottom fill out of the

1267
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 1: economy there were no jobs. Um And Like I think

1268
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:01,480
Speaker 1: there were a lot of you know, like people who

1269
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:05,280
Speaker 1: like had anticipated a middle class life um of some kind.

1270
01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:07,880
Speaker 1: Not that I really had at that point, but whatever, like,

1271
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:09,680
Speaker 1: but but a lot of people, like in my economic

1272
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 1: cohort like had um uh suddenly facing you know, proletarianization, right.

1273
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:18,240
Speaker 1: And I think that was one of the strengths of

1274
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 1: the movement. I think that was that, you know, like

1275
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 1: I mentioned the statistics in great in Spain and Greece. Like,

1276
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 1: I think that was a global aspect of this kind

1277
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 1: of movement um uh Arab Spring to like there was

1278
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 1: there was a lot of like that was really a

1279
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:33,760
Speaker 1: response to the economic crisis. Obviously, those folks were already

1280
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:36,360
Speaker 1: more proletarian than the people who the young people and

1281
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 1: in the squares movements, UM. But they they innovated, they

1282
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:42,560
Speaker 1: created the tactics in in Arab Spring right um Terrer Square,

1283
01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:46,920
Speaker 1: most famously in Cairo. Um and UM I think like

1284
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:52,160
Speaker 1: those creating a meeting place where um, you didn't require

1285
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:58,880
Speaker 1: a preconstructed like political community um in order to engage

1286
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:01,360
Speaker 1: was a strength and a weakness UM. And I think

1287
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:03,840
Speaker 1: it also, you know, as a result of the dynamics

1288
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:05,560
Speaker 1: of the General Assembly, the dynamics of the sort of

1289
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:09,520
Speaker 1: volunteerist nature of that what I'm describing, um, it led

1290
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 1: to a lot of people who were already confident, who

1291
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 1: are already feeling good, being able to like take more

1292
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:17,600
Speaker 1: power right like um uh And I think it also

1293
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:19,960
Speaker 1: was a very white movement um certainly in New York,

1294
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:22,200
Speaker 1: but but I think I think across the country, UM,

1295
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:24,320
Speaker 1: it was largely it was largely you know it was.

1296
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:28,120
Speaker 1: It was majority white in a way that you know,

1297
01:07:28,160 --> 01:07:30,480
Speaker 1: by higher percentages than any movement that we've really been

1298
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:33,480
Speaker 1: part of since um was UM. And that was obviously

1299
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:35,480
Speaker 1: a limit um for for reasons that will be obvious

1300
01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:37,640
Speaker 1: to everyone, including the idea that like a lot of

1301
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:42,600
Speaker 1: people pushed that like the police are part of the right. Um. Okay,

1302
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 1: so let's let's talk about the police, because you know,

1303
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 1: that's you know, that's that's one of the other extremely

1304
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 1: important aspects of this is this immense militarization. I mean, okay,

1305
01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:55,080
Speaker 1: so I think that the militarization of the police as

1306
01:07:55,120 --> 01:08:00,120
Speaker 1: a phrase, I think it's somewhat misleading in that like

1307
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:05,280
Speaker 1: the cops have always like shot people. Yeah, but you know,

1308
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:08,800
Speaker 1: there there's yeah, there, there's there's there's still like there's

1309
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:11,200
Speaker 1: an intense sort of ramp up of of the prison sector.

1310
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 1: There's you have this intense boom in the size of prisons.

1311
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:18,479
Speaker 1: You have, Yeah, you have you have increasing parts of

1312
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:21,599
Speaker 1: the economy that are just the entire towns that used

1313
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:23,360
Speaker 1: to be sort of manufacturing sectors, used to be sort

1314
01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:26,920
Speaker 1: of involved in sort of industrial production that are just

1315
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:29,519
Speaker 1: like the economy is now just there's a prison there

1316
01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:33,559
Speaker 1: and right, and I think this is also looking back,

1317
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:35,320
Speaker 1: one of the things that look like occupy kind of

1318
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:38,719
Speaker 1: ran ran up into because you know, occupies this attempt

1319
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:42,560
Speaker 1: to like you know, form a democratic space, and it

1320
01:08:42,960 --> 01:08:46,720
Speaker 1: relies crucially on this this thing that is nominally in

1321
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:49,400
Speaker 1: the Constitution but doesn't exist, which is the like the

1322
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 1: right to freedom of speech and the right to freedom

1323
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 1: of assembly and freedom assembly like that is that is

1324
01:08:54,280 --> 01:08:56,560
Speaker 1: like that is bullshit. It does not exist. If you like,

1325
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:59,280
Speaker 1: if if you actually believe that this exists, like try

1326
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 1: getting like seventy people into a space and see how

1327
01:09:02,320 --> 01:09:03,880
Speaker 1: like just like I don't know, like into a street

1328
01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:05,360
Speaker 1: or just just like into into like have one of

1329
01:09:05,360 --> 01:09:07,360
Speaker 1: people on a park and just like see how fast

1330
01:09:07,360 --> 01:09:09,920
Speaker 1: the cops show up, because you know it's like, yeah,

1331
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:12,479
Speaker 1: the first time yeah that I was I was at

1332
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:18,559
Speaker 1: any kind of protests, cops immediately wanted to take anything

1333
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 1: I was holding. You're not you're not You're not allowed.

1334
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:23,759
Speaker 1: The first thing if if if if you have anything

1335
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:26,680
Speaker 1: in your hands, that's that that is a that is

1336
01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:29,240
Speaker 1: a problem. Yeah, it's like the First Amendment is just

1337
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:32,599
Speaker 1: it's super completely superseded by traffic laws, like laws about

1338
01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:34,800
Speaker 1: like sidewalk maintenance, like no, it's it's all fair, like

1339
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:36,960
Speaker 1: none of it like you're you're not You're not allowed

1340
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:38,400
Speaker 1: to And this is this is I think is partially

1341
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:39,479
Speaker 1: what this is kind of a talk, but this is

1342
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:41,600
Speaker 1: part I think why there's so much focused on the

1343
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:43,599
Speaker 1: right about the first Mont because they want to they

1344
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:45,519
Speaker 1: want to draw attention away from the fact that, like,

1345
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:48,360
Speaker 1: the actual thing that's fake about it is that you

1346
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:50,840
Speaker 1: can't gather people and meat anywhere, and they want to

1347
01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:54,080
Speaker 1: draw it into these like inane like this professor like

1348
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:55,759
Speaker 1: said the N word a bunch of times in class.

1349
01:09:56,280 --> 01:09:58,640
Speaker 1: Isn't it bad that people are mad at them? But

1350
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:01,080
Speaker 1: but if I think also go to tyn this sort

1351
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:04,000
Speaker 1: of back to occupy. You know. Okay, So, so occupy

1352
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:11,040
Speaker 1: functions right insofar as there is a a physical location

1353
01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:13,439
Speaker 1: where people can go and physically interact with each other.

1354
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:17,799
Speaker 1: And that's a problem because at some point the police

1355
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:22,280
Speaker 1: are just like no, and they start clearing the encampments.

1356
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:23,600
Speaker 1: And I think this is this is the other thing

1357
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:27,759
Speaker 1: that occupy is that outside of like parts of Oakland,

1358
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:31,280
Speaker 1: and that that's a whole other thing that yeah, but

1359
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:35,920
Speaker 1: it's it's it's incredibly studiously non violent in a way

1360
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:42,599
Speaker 1: that like nothing I've ever seen before since is yeah,

1361
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:44,920
Speaker 1: so so so there's a lot there. I'm gonna I

1362
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:46,439
Speaker 1: want to talk about it because that's there's a lot

1363
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:48,640
Speaker 1: um but yeah, so I think I think the militarization

1364
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:52,080
Speaker 1: of the police thesis um is is incomplete if you

1365
01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:55,479
Speaker 1: don't also talk about the policification of the military. Right, so,

1366
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:58,000
Speaker 1: like part of what happens with with the great expansion

1367
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:01,960
Speaker 1: of the of the uh Carcel state, part of that

1368
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:05,200
Speaker 1: is also a response to the Vietnam War um and

1369
01:11:05,720 --> 01:11:08,840
Speaker 1: and mass resistance within you know, the troops they were

1370
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:10,439
Speaker 1: like in the Vietnam the in like the last two

1371
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:12,840
Speaker 1: years when ground troops are there in Vietnam, there's like

1372
01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:16,519
Speaker 1: four hundred fragging incidents where where um you know where

1373
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 1: where privates and recruits killed their officers. The U. S.

1374
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:23,400
Speaker 1: Army during the during Vietnam was on the brink of

1375
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:26,920
Speaker 1: of collapse in the way that like like the Russian

1376
01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:29,400
Speaker 1: Army was looking in it was like like like the

1377
01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:31,439
Speaker 1: numbers I think I think still number one point there

1378
01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:33,320
Speaker 1: was like forty of the army by the end of

1379
01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:37,439
Speaker 1: Vietnam was either on strike or just like not following orders. Yeah, no,

1380
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:39,640
Speaker 1: it was, it was complete. There was the reason that

1381
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:42,559
Speaker 1: Nixon pursues Vietnam sizzation, which is when they just started

1382
01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:45,799
Speaker 1: doing air campaigns, bombing and napalm, is because they couldn't

1383
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:48,000
Speaker 1: rely on ground troops anymore. They just they were useless.

1384
01:11:48,040 --> 01:11:49,880
Speaker 1: They were all high. Um, you know the talk about

1385
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:51,080
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of talking about like heroin,

1386
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:52,200
Speaker 1: but like that was actually kind of a form of

1387
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:55,080
Speaker 1: resistance within the lines in a complicated way. Whatever. Okay,

1388
01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:58,519
Speaker 1: that's all very So the military realizes that it can't

1389
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:02,559
Speaker 1: function as a mass military in the model that nation

1390
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:05,160
Speaker 1: states have done since the Napoleonic Wars, right, which is

1391
01:12:05,200 --> 01:12:07,880
Speaker 1: like the mass you know, the mass recruitment of the

1392
01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:11,200
Speaker 1: citizen soldier. Um, that's sort of how war is fought

1393
01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:14,720
Speaker 1: between you know, eighteen ten and nineteen seventy. And then

1394
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:17,400
Speaker 1: it becomes clear that that's not gonna work anymore because

1395
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:20,720
Speaker 1: because the aims of the countries and the power of

1396
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:24,080
Speaker 1: nationalism have become too abstracted. Fascism has done too much

1397
01:12:24,160 --> 01:12:26,200
Speaker 1: damage to that image. There's just like there's it doesn't

1398
01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:28,880
Speaker 1: really work anymore. So the military turns into a sort

1399
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:31,439
Speaker 1: of what it always was also which is like a

1400
01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:33,840
Speaker 1: colonial policing force, and so the police the military drift

1401
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:38,559
Speaker 1: towards one another in form and function. Okay, So in Occupy, Um,

1402
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:41,200
Speaker 1: one of the microhistories that I think it's forgotten is that, like,

1403
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:43,880
Speaker 1: I mean because because it took a week, and like,

1404
01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:46,280
Speaker 1: who remembers this week except for like weirdos like me

1405
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:48,560
Speaker 1: who were there. Um, is it like there was no

1406
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:50,760
Speaker 1: one at Zuccati in the first first week. And one

1407
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:53,360
Speaker 1: of the big things that happened was these these these

1408
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:55,719
Speaker 1: you know, young white girls got caught in a police

1409
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:57,880
Speaker 1: net and pepper sprayed, and there was this video that

1410
01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:00,360
Speaker 1: went around with them getting pepper sprayed and screaming. Is

1411
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:02,000
Speaker 1: particularly this good this woman on her knees, you know,

1412
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:05,120
Speaker 1: screaming with with tears and pepper spray going down her face,

1413
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:08,040
Speaker 1: and that really outraged people because you know, they were

1414
01:13:08,080 --> 01:13:10,240
Speaker 1: you know, it was police depression and police violence. So

1415
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:12,640
Speaker 1: in terms of the question of non violence, yes, Um,

1416
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:14,519
Speaker 1: there was a lot of non violence. It was a

1417
01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:19,080
Speaker 1: constant fight that took honestly took until the George Floyd

1418
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:22,320
Speaker 1: uprising for the right outside to win. Frankly, but but

1419
01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:25,760
Speaker 1: but but during occupy there was you know, there was

1420
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 1: a lot of non violence nonsense. Um and I think like,

1421
01:13:30,680 --> 01:13:32,680
Speaker 1: but but another thing that happened though was that like

1422
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, like I said, people were marching every day.

1423
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:37,719
Speaker 1: So even in New York, where I think the political

1424
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:40,240
Speaker 1: height was kind of achieved, October one when we took

1425
01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:42,599
Speaker 1: the Brooklyn Bridge. Um, I think I think New York

1426
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:45,880
Speaker 1: never really like had a big moment again, Like it

1427
01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:48,960
Speaker 1: was largely sort of like smaller things after that. But um,

1428
01:13:49,880 --> 01:13:51,800
Speaker 1: but like and there was a mass arrest on the

1429
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:53,719
Speaker 1: Brooklyn Bridge. We marched over the Brooklyn Bridge, the brookn

1430
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:56,320
Speaker 1: Bridge got shut down. They arrested seven hundred of US. Um.

1431
01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:58,680
Speaker 1: It was the first big infrastructure shutdown that happened in

1432
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:00,360
Speaker 1: the US since the l A Riots. It was a

1433
01:14:00,400 --> 01:14:03,080
Speaker 1: big deal at the time. Now, can I put a

1434
01:14:03,160 --> 01:14:06,040
Speaker 1: note doubt though, specifically for the Brooklyn Bridge if you're

1435
01:14:06,120 --> 01:14:08,479
Speaker 1: because people I've seen every every single time there's one

1436
01:14:08,479 --> 01:14:10,000
Speaker 1: of these movements, people try to take the Brooklyn Bridge

1437
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:12,880
Speaker 1: and they all got arrested. It's like, can can you

1438
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:15,840
Speaker 1: all like please, I am begging you if you're going

1439
01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:17,479
Speaker 1: to try to take a bridge, make sure you have

1440
01:14:17,560 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 1: a way out, Like, yeah, you got to hold one

1441
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:25,519
Speaker 1: of the sites to get arrested. Yeah, yeah, exactly, you

1442
01:14:25,560 --> 01:14:28,840
Speaker 1: got a way out a bridge designed to not have

1443
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:33,360
Speaker 1: a way out. Exactly. Please please don't all get arrested.

1444
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:38,880
Speaker 1: It's it's in fact bad and yeah, sorry, exactly. I

1445
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:41,599
Speaker 1: have seen a few people successively take bridges a few times,

1446
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:43,920
Speaker 1: but that's because there was like three cop cars and

1447
01:14:44,040 --> 01:14:48,800
Speaker 1: like people, if you have like a block with two

1448
01:14:48,920 --> 01:14:52,080
Speaker 1: hundred kids, you're not going to be able to hold

1449
01:14:52,160 --> 01:15:03,800
Speaker 1: the bridge. Yeah. From Cavalry Audio comes the new true

1450
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:08,280
Speaker 1: crime podcast The Shadow Girls Were always wanted to know

1451
01:15:08,479 --> 01:15:11,080
Speaker 1: what it felt like you killed somebody and started laughing.

1452
01:15:11,240 --> 01:15:14,960
Speaker 1: Prosecutors described him as a serial killer, st kicking up

1453
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 1: these girls, getting him in a position of vulnerability. When

1454
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:20,400
Speaker 1: he got hold of their neck, that was it. I'm

1455
01:15:20,479 --> 01:15:24,600
Speaker 1: Caroline Asia, a journalist and lifelong resident at the Pacific Northwest.

1456
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:27,160
Speaker 1: I grew up near the banks of the Green River

1457
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:30,479
Speaker 1: and in the shadow of the killer that bears its name.

1458
01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:33,479
Speaker 1: How many times did you bring the camera wonder of time?

1459
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:36,760
Speaker 1: Just one time he started fantasizing about having sex with

1460
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:40,280
Speaker 1: his mother, and he fantasized about killing her. But this

1461
01:15:40,479 --> 01:15:44,240
Speaker 1: podcast isn't only about tracking down the killer it's about

1462
01:15:44,280 --> 01:15:47,479
Speaker 1: the victims. We stayed in the woods. He always liked

1463
01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 1: to go into woods, all of the kind of strange.

1464
01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:54,160
Speaker 1: You know how it feels about prostitutes. Listen to The

1465
01:15:54,200 --> 01:15:57,200
Speaker 1: Shadow Girls on the I Heart Radio app, on Apple

1466
01:15:57,280 --> 01:16:03,479
Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Adoption of teens

1467
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:06,120
Speaker 1: from foster care is a topic not enough people know about,

1468
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:08,920
Speaker 1: and we're here to change that. I'm April Dinuity, host

1469
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:12,920
Speaker 1: of the new podcast Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt us Kids.

1470
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:16,800
Speaker 1: Each episode brings you compelling, real life adoption stories told

1471
01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:19,360
Speaker 1: by the families that lived them, with commentary from experts.

1472
01:16:19,760 --> 01:16:23,480
Speaker 1: Visit adopt us Kids dot org, slash podcast, or subscribe

1473
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:26,840
Speaker 1: to Navigating Adoption presented by adopt Us Kids, brought to

1474
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:28,559
Speaker 1: you by the U. S Department of Health, the Human

1475
01:16:28,640 --> 01:16:31,679
Speaker 1: Services Administration for Children and Families, and the ACT Council.

1476
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:35,759
Speaker 1: After thirty years, it's time to return to the halls

1477
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:38,200
Speaker 1: of West Beverly High and hang out at the peach pit.

1478
01:16:38,479 --> 01:16:41,599
Speaker 1: On the podcast nine O two one, OMG joined Jenny

1479
01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:44,160
Speaker 1: Garth and Tori Spelling for a rewatch of the hit

1480
01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:46,680
Speaker 1: series Beverly Hills nine O two one oh from the

1481
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:50,160
Speaker 1: very beginning, we get to tell the fans all of

1482
01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:53,200
Speaker 1: the behind the scenes stories to actually happen, so they

1483
01:16:53,320 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 1: know what happened on camera obviously, but we can tell

1484
01:16:55,880 --> 01:16:58,280
Speaker 1: them all the good stuff that happened off camera. Get

1485
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:01,040
Speaker 1: all the juicy details of every episode that you've been

1486
01:17:01,080 --> 01:17:03,559
Speaker 1: wondering about for decades. As nine O two one oh,

1487
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:06,960
Speaker 1: super fan and radio host Sissany sits in with Jenny

1488
01:17:07,000 --> 01:17:10,479
Speaker 1: and Tory Too reminisce, reflect and relive each moment, from

1489
01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:14,280
Speaker 1: Brandon and Kelly's first kiss to shouting Donna Martin graduates,

1490
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:18,400
Speaker 1: you have an amazing memory. You remember everything about the

1491
01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:21,040
Speaker 1: entire ten years that we filmed that show, and you

1492
01:17:21,439 --> 01:17:24,599
Speaker 1: remember absolutely nothing of the ten years that we filmed

1493
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:28,080
Speaker 1: that show. Listen to nine O two one OMG on

1494
01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:30,760
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1495
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:39,920
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Welcome to Dick hauld Happened Here, a

1496
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:42,519
Speaker 1: podcast about a crumbling empire and planting seeds in the

1497
01:17:42,560 --> 01:17:45,479
Speaker 1: spaces between. Here's part two of our interview with Vicky

1498
01:17:45,560 --> 01:17:48,840
Speaker 1: Ouston while about the legacy of Occupy Wall Street. But

1499
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:50,280
Speaker 1: but you know, like you were saying, you know like

1500
01:17:50,360 --> 01:17:52,080
Speaker 1: that that you know, don't get arrested, it's bad. So

1501
01:17:52,120 --> 01:17:55,040
Speaker 1: I think when occupy really started, you know, we were

1502
01:17:55,120 --> 01:17:58,559
Speaker 1: mostly people who had been educated by the co optation

1503
01:17:58,600 --> 01:18:00,080
Speaker 1: of the civil rights movement, which is that it is

1504
01:18:00,120 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 1: all non violent and that the whole thing was getting

1505
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:04,479
Speaker 1: arrested and Martin Luther King was like the only voice

1506
01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:06,120
Speaker 1: that made any sense and that was what was effective.

1507
01:18:06,120 --> 01:18:08,000
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah blah blah. Um. We had all learned

1508
01:18:08,040 --> 01:18:09,560
Speaker 1: that in school, right, We had all been trained that

1509
01:18:09,600 --> 01:18:11,200
Speaker 1: like non violence was like the only thing that made

1510
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:13,960
Speaker 1: sense and that worked. Um. And I think like those

1511
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:15,400
Speaker 1: of us who learned about it at all in school,

1512
01:18:15,439 --> 01:18:17,720
Speaker 1: which is certainly not everyone, but like I think, like

1513
01:18:18,240 --> 01:18:23,200
Speaker 1: like the the experience of occupy of like every day

1514
01:18:23,479 --> 01:18:26,280
Speaker 1: just getting beat up by the cops every day, like

1515
01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:31,439
Speaker 1: getting attacked, getting arrested. Some people got really some people

1516
01:18:31,479 --> 01:18:34,760
Speaker 1: got really nihilistically nonviolent, Like some people like really dug

1517
01:18:34,840 --> 01:18:37,560
Speaker 1: in and they're like like like we're like no, like

1518
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:39,920
Speaker 1: there is nothing we can do except be beaten in

1519
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:42,759
Speaker 1: the turn of this like real masochistic game. But that happens,

1520
01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:46,680
Speaker 1: that still happens all the time. Oh yeah, yeah, that's

1521
01:18:46,720 --> 01:18:49,040
Speaker 1: that's one. That's one common response. But another thing that

1522
01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:52,519
Speaker 1: happened was that people started breaking through that that that ship.

1523
01:18:52,680 --> 01:18:55,920
Speaker 1: People people started on the ground. Like I remember a march,

1524
01:18:56,040 --> 01:18:58,280
Speaker 1: you know, early on, you know, the police would attack

1525
01:18:58,320 --> 01:18:59,640
Speaker 1: and everyone would sort of like d try a d

1526
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:01,560
Speaker 1: esco late and people would try to like you know,

1527
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:03,920
Speaker 1: like like talk to the cops or whatever. And like

1528
01:19:04,040 --> 01:19:06,400
Speaker 1: by November when right before the camps got cleared, I

1529
01:19:06,439 --> 01:19:09,680
Speaker 1: remember being on a march where we stole all of

1530
01:19:09,760 --> 01:19:13,120
Speaker 1: their orange meeting using and you're just holding it over

1531
01:19:13,160 --> 01:19:15,800
Speaker 1: our head at large and like trapping cops in it.

1532
01:19:15,920 --> 01:19:18,080
Speaker 1: So like even in New York where things never gotten

1533
01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:21,120
Speaker 1: that intense, um like in some ways in terms of

1534
01:19:21,120 --> 01:19:25,240
Speaker 1: direct action like that lesson on the ground, like you

1535
01:19:25,320 --> 01:19:27,559
Speaker 1: have to be you have to be very ideologically committed

1536
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:29,639
Speaker 1: to get hit with the baton three times and still

1537
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:31,280
Speaker 1: think the police are on your side. You know, you

1538
01:19:31,360 --> 01:19:32,880
Speaker 1: have to like really, you have to really be drinking

1539
01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:35,040
Speaker 1: kool aid. And some people are like some people really

1540
01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:37,560
Speaker 1: do want to believe that. But I think, um, I

1541
01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:41,960
Speaker 1: think that was one So during occupy, like those of

1542
01:19:42,040 --> 01:19:45,360
Speaker 1: us who hated the police were pretty lonely even though

1543
01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:47,200
Speaker 1: the police were beating us up. But by the end

1544
01:19:47,280 --> 01:19:49,519
Speaker 1: of Occupied the seeds had really been sown for a

1545
01:19:49,600 --> 01:19:54,000
Speaker 1: lot of generational understanding of the police that didn't necessarily

1546
01:19:54,800 --> 01:19:58,400
Speaker 1: immediately so fruit like it wasn't immediately obvious, but I think,

1547
01:19:58,520 --> 01:20:01,880
Speaker 1: like I think like folks who stayed in struggle from

1548
01:20:01,960 --> 01:20:04,920
Speaker 1: there grew more and more anti police. Yeah, that was

1549
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:07,679
Speaker 1: that in general. That was well, okay, so my stress

1550
01:20:07,760 --> 01:20:11,200
Speaker 1: was less with occupying more with like the two thirteen

1551
01:20:11,200 --> 01:20:13,040
Speaker 1: stuff in Turkey. But it's like that that was because

1552
01:20:13,040 --> 01:20:15,360
Speaker 1: I was brought up in that like this sort of

1553
01:20:15,479 --> 01:20:19,719
Speaker 1: like Foe Gandhi and like, yeah, MLK civil to Subians.

1554
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:22,920
Speaker 1: And then it was like like I watched Turkey happened,

1555
01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:25,280
Speaker 1: and it was like, hey, here's my friend just like

1556
01:20:25,560 --> 01:20:27,720
Speaker 1: getting his ribs broken by a cop. And then like

1557
01:20:27,800 --> 01:20:29,960
Speaker 1: there's Raba and you know, and it were bas sort

1558
01:20:29,960 --> 01:20:31,679
Speaker 1: of where whe the Egyptian movement dies and were bad,

1559
01:20:31,720 --> 01:20:33,240
Speaker 1: they just you know, they bring out the machine guns

1560
01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:35,960
Speaker 1: and they just shoot everyone. Yeah, and at a certain point,

1561
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:38,519
Speaker 1: like you know, this is the limited non violence, right

1562
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:41,439
Speaker 1: is that what happens if they just shoot you and

1563
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:44,960
Speaker 1: and Gandhi? You know, if what if you ever want

1564
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:47,320
Speaker 1: to like go down to the Gandhi rabbit hole, like

1565
01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:51,840
Speaker 1: Gandhi like writes this letter to like like the Jews

1566
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:54,679
Speaker 1: of Germany where he's telling them to like throw themselves

1567
01:20:54,720 --> 01:20:57,360
Speaker 1: on the blades of the Nazis, and it's like this,

1568
01:20:57,520 --> 01:20:59,639
Speaker 1: it's it's this is this is like yeah, it sucks.

1569
01:20:59,720 --> 01:21:03,439
Speaker 1: This is ridiculous, like just this is just like it's

1570
01:21:03,479 --> 01:21:08,760
Speaker 1: being complacent for abuse. UM. Anyone Too Studios has a

1571
01:21:08,840 --> 01:21:13,320
Speaker 1: really good video on why non violence helps the state

1572
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:18,200
Speaker 1: UM and how basically activists that try to force other

1573
01:21:18,400 --> 01:21:21,880
Speaker 1: you know, demonstrators to adhere strictly to non violence, that's

1574
01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:26,320
Speaker 1: basically that's that's them in that's them basically saying that

1575
01:21:26,439 --> 01:21:30,920
Speaker 1: if like that, that's then endorsing the police beating somebody

1576
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:33,519
Speaker 1: up like like that. Like that's it's it's not actually

1577
01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:36,160
Speaker 1: tied to any kind of movement and it doesn't actually

1578
01:21:36,200 --> 01:21:38,160
Speaker 1: help like I and we could actually see this last

1579
01:21:38,280 --> 01:21:41,479
Speaker 1: year with like the first few weeks of like you know,

1580
01:21:41,640 --> 01:21:44,960
Speaker 1: abuse from the state actually making headlines and actually changing people.

1581
01:21:45,280 --> 01:21:48,360
Speaker 1: But after a while it just didn't matter. Like a

1582
01:21:48,439 --> 01:21:51,400
Speaker 1: cop could put someone down and pummel their face in

1583
01:21:51,560 --> 01:21:54,120
Speaker 1: like August and like who gives a ship nobody, Like

1584
01:21:54,200 --> 01:21:57,000
Speaker 1: it doesn't it doesn't matter, you know, like that's that's

1585
01:21:57,040 --> 01:21:59,600
Speaker 1: why I found it funny when you talked about, like,

1586
01:22:00,439 --> 01:22:02,479
Speaker 1: you know, people getting mad because the cops are like

1587
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:04,479
Speaker 1: mazing people when they turn into them, And I'm like,

1588
01:22:04,720 --> 01:22:06,600
Speaker 1: if that happened, no one, no one would give a

1589
01:22:06,640 --> 01:22:11,080
Speaker 1: ship Like yeah, well, like I think not at all anymore. Yeah, totally. Well,

1590
01:22:11,200 --> 01:22:14,200
Speaker 1: I think I think part of it is the first

1591
01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:18,639
Speaker 1: time that you see it, it's like what on earth?

1592
01:22:19,439 --> 01:22:21,120
Speaker 1: Like this this? This I think has been one of

1593
01:22:21,160 --> 01:22:23,080
Speaker 1: the things that's been the core of the whole sort

1594
01:22:23,120 --> 01:22:28,800
Speaker 1: of nineteen like late sort of cycle revolutions, is that

1595
01:22:29,360 --> 01:22:32,080
Speaker 1: like if if you're just like a dude in a

1596
01:22:32,200 --> 01:22:36,559
Speaker 1: grocery store and some guy runs in is like running

1597
01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:38,479
Speaker 1: away from the cops and then like fifteen riot cops

1598
01:22:38,520 --> 01:22:39,760
Speaker 1: and just start beating the shout out of them, which

1599
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:41,680
Speaker 1: is the thing that happens like a lot. Like if

1600
01:22:41,720 --> 01:22:45,519
Speaker 1: you just see that, right, there's no way you can actually,

1601
01:22:45,720 --> 01:22:49,760
Speaker 1: like like if you ordinary person just witness the cops

1602
01:22:49,920 --> 01:22:51,400
Speaker 1: running up and just being the show of someone, like,

1603
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:54,439
Speaker 1: there's no way you can't not be sort of radicalized

1604
01:22:54,439 --> 01:22:56,280
Speaker 1: against the police by it. But like, yeah, but there's

1605
01:22:56,320 --> 01:22:58,840
Speaker 1: there's a certain point where you hit it. The decentitization

1606
01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:04,120
Speaker 1: happens more quickly than what it should. Um, and we

1607
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:07,640
Speaker 1: stopped caring. I agree. I agree with both of you

1608
01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:10,280
Speaker 1: that like that, Like both it is shocking and radicalizing

1609
01:23:10,439 --> 01:23:14,360
Speaker 1: and we get desensitized because there is so much spectacular

1610
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:18,160
Speaker 1: pressure to naturalize the police and non violence ideology is

1611
01:23:18,200 --> 01:23:20,519
Speaker 1: part of that is part of naturalizing police violence, right,

1612
01:23:20,800 --> 01:23:23,400
Speaker 1: Like there's nothing you can do about police violence. Um,

1613
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:26,360
Speaker 1: so all you can do is control yourself, and therefore

1614
01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:28,720
Speaker 1: you should you know, you should be better or whatever. Yeah,

1615
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:31,599
Speaker 1: Gandhi had this whole fantasy about, um, the perfect army

1616
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:35,880
Speaker 1: would march unarmed into machine gun fire, um, and would

1617
01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:38,000
Speaker 1: just be mowed down. It's it's he's a fascist, frankly

1618
01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:41,200
Speaker 1: um and and yeah, and you only need to look

1619
01:23:41,200 --> 01:23:43,760
Speaker 1: at his opinions about black Africans when he was when

1620
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:45,960
Speaker 1: he Africot to see that even if you even if

1621
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:49,400
Speaker 1: you just read like like even if you just read

1622
01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:53,479
Speaker 1: like self reliance, it's like this is you know, it's

1623
01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:55,400
Speaker 1: not everything I want to talk about with with the

1624
01:23:55,720 --> 01:23:59,040
Speaker 1: peace police though, which is that like they're also like

1625
01:23:59,320 --> 01:24:05,120
Speaker 1: in terms of like fighting, like inflicting violence on other protesters,

1626
01:24:05,240 --> 01:24:08,000
Speaker 1: like they are the most violent like of of of

1627
01:24:08,080 --> 01:24:09,880
Speaker 1: the factions you've seen in a pro that does happen

1628
01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:13,760
Speaker 1: very well, maybe not the most like like that, it

1629
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:17,400
Speaker 1: does happen like like they beat people up. Like yeah,

1630
01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:19,479
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say, like it ties into like protest security,

1631
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:23,240
Speaker 1: and when protest security is usually working with these more

1632
01:24:23,320 --> 01:24:26,439
Speaker 1: like peace police type organizers, and then they use protest

1633
01:24:26,439 --> 01:24:29,559
Speaker 1: security to literally beat up people who are doing more

1634
01:24:29,680 --> 01:24:33,400
Speaker 1: radical action against the state. Um. That happens all the time. Yes,

1635
01:24:33,479 --> 01:24:36,920
Speaker 1: oh yeah, protest security. When I see protest security or marshals, Um,

1636
01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:39,200
Speaker 1: I know exactly that that the that we're in a

1637
01:24:39,280 --> 01:24:41,599
Speaker 1: bad We're in a bad march. Um. The only time

1638
01:24:41,640 --> 01:24:45,280
Speaker 1: I've ever been physically assaulted by another protester was during

1639
01:24:45,320 --> 01:24:48,680
Speaker 1: Occupy actually, um during after the night after you've been evicted, um,

1640
01:24:48,760 --> 01:24:52,080
Speaker 1: which is like November, I think. Um. And if people

1641
01:24:52,080 --> 01:24:55,400
Speaker 1: don't remember, Obama and the FBI coordinated this nationally, all

1642
01:24:55,439 --> 01:24:57,720
Speaker 1: the occupying encampments got swept within a week of each other.

1643
01:24:58,320 --> 01:25:01,680
Speaker 1: Um on that march. Um, we're marching around, We march

1644
01:25:01,720 --> 01:25:04,200
Speaker 1: around all night, UM. And I'm just dragging a trash

1645
01:25:04,280 --> 01:25:06,080
Speaker 1: can into the street because we're being followed by police

1646
01:25:06,120 --> 01:25:09,479
Speaker 1: cars and I'm literally attempting to do some education. At

1647
01:25:09,479 --> 01:25:11,519
Speaker 1: the same time, I'm like pulling the trash can in

1648
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:13,880
Speaker 1: the street, and I'm yelling, you know, I am doing

1649
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:16,799
Speaker 1: this because I want to protect us from police violence.

1650
01:25:16,840 --> 01:25:18,760
Speaker 1: Like if this is in the street, then the cop

1651
01:25:18,840 --> 01:25:21,080
Speaker 1: cars can't catch us as much. That's why we build baraka.

1652
01:25:21,160 --> 01:25:23,360
Speaker 1: I'm like literally trying to like yell this because, like,

1653
01:25:23,520 --> 01:25:25,519
Speaker 1: you know, because pulling a trash can in the streets

1654
01:25:25,560 --> 01:25:27,880
Speaker 1: incredibly and effective ultimately, so it was like literally it

1655
01:25:28,000 --> 01:25:29,960
Speaker 1: was literally just like for education purposes at that point

1656
01:25:30,000 --> 01:25:32,040
Speaker 1: basically anyway, especially since a lot of people would like

1657
01:25:32,040 --> 01:25:34,080
Speaker 1: pull them back out of the street. Whatever. This guy

1658
01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:36,639
Speaker 1: runs up on me and grabs me by the collar

1659
01:25:36,760 --> 01:25:39,040
Speaker 1: and lifts me up and like threatens me with this

1660
01:25:39,080 --> 01:25:41,080
Speaker 1: fucking fist, and he says, if my mom can't get

1661
01:25:41,160 --> 01:25:44,320
Speaker 1: to work tomorrow because of you, like I'll beat the

1662
01:25:44,320 --> 01:25:45,960
Speaker 1: ship out of you. And we're like we're marching in

1663
01:25:46,040 --> 01:25:48,160
Speaker 1: Manhattan a like one am. I'm like, what the hell

1664
01:25:48,200 --> 01:25:50,000
Speaker 1: are you talking about? And like he would have he

1665
01:25:50,040 --> 01:25:51,840
Speaker 1: would have hurt me like pretty bad if a friend

1666
01:25:51,880 --> 01:25:53,280
Speaker 1: of mine hadn't like luckily had my back and like

1667
01:25:53,360 --> 01:25:55,400
Speaker 1: de escalated a bit That's the only time I've ever

1668
01:25:55,520 --> 01:25:58,360
Speaker 1: been like physically like brought up like into a fight

1669
01:25:58,960 --> 01:26:03,120
Speaker 1: um with by by another protester. Was was a guy

1670
01:26:03,439 --> 01:26:06,080
Speaker 1: insisting that me dragging a trash can into the street.

1671
01:26:06,080 --> 01:26:11,599
Speaker 1: It was beyond the pale and I but I want

1672
01:26:11,640 --> 01:26:14,400
Speaker 1: to just talk a bit more, but like how systematic

1673
01:26:14,520 --> 01:26:18,160
Speaker 1: the violence was, like because Okay, so originally I was

1674
01:26:18,160 --> 01:26:20,240
Speaker 1: gonna try to get someone from Occupy Oakland to come

1675
01:26:20,320 --> 01:26:21,560
Speaker 1: talk about this, and I talked to a lot of

1676
01:26:21,600 --> 01:26:24,720
Speaker 1: people and the biggest thing that I got was that

1677
01:26:24,880 --> 01:26:26,599
Speaker 1: no one would talk about it on the record because

1678
01:26:26,600 --> 01:26:29,560
Speaker 1: they got because Oakland had Oakland had a blacklist and

1679
01:26:29,640 --> 01:26:33,240
Speaker 1: if if you were inoccupy and like anyone else found

1680
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:36,439
Speaker 1: out about it, like people like people couldn't people spent

1681
01:26:36,479 --> 01:26:39,320
Speaker 1: half a decade just not being able to find jobs

1682
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:42,360
Speaker 1: because they just play blacklisted everyone and like to this day,

1683
01:26:43,320 --> 01:26:45,240
Speaker 1: like the thing I was told was like, yeah, I'm

1684
01:26:45,280 --> 01:26:48,479
Speaker 1: I won't talk about this because you know, like if

1685
01:26:48,560 --> 01:26:50,160
Speaker 1: if I talked about this, like I will be fired,

1686
01:26:50,280 --> 01:26:52,240
Speaker 1: all of my family everyone around me will be fired.

1687
01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:54,599
Speaker 1: And there's like I think, like this is the everything.

1688
01:26:54,640 --> 01:26:56,839
Speaker 1: But when we talked about sort of the collapsive occupy,

1689
01:26:57,720 --> 01:27:00,320
Speaker 1: the the extent to which, after a bomb in the

1690
01:27:00,760 --> 01:27:04,960
Speaker 1: ordered the camps closed. The policy is that the comps

1691
01:27:05,040 --> 01:27:07,679
Speaker 1: are going to torture anyone who attempts to like gather

1692
01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:11,479
Speaker 1: in a place yep, yep. For for two years, you

1693
01:27:11,479 --> 01:27:14,000
Speaker 1: couldn't have a meeting outside without a police attacking basically,

1694
01:27:14,120 --> 01:27:17,640
Speaker 1: and yeah, um and and yeah, I mean it was

1695
01:27:17,720 --> 01:27:20,640
Speaker 1: it was. You know, I think like a lot of UM,

1696
01:27:21,040 --> 01:27:24,160
Speaker 1: the people who now claim that that occupy is the

1697
01:27:24,240 --> 01:27:26,479
Speaker 1: reason that they do politics or whatever for burning standers

1698
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:28,479
Speaker 1: or whatever, UM, at the time they were saying that

1699
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:31,839
Speaker 1: the reason it collapses because there was no UM organization.

1700
01:27:31,880 --> 01:27:34,200
Speaker 1: There was no structure, there was no political party, there

1701
01:27:34,320 --> 01:27:36,840
Speaker 1: was no you know whatever, there was no demands. And

1702
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:40,559
Speaker 1: like it's true that it was poorly organized, like there's

1703
01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:44,600
Speaker 1: no doubt, um, but like we got beat out of

1704
01:27:44,640 --> 01:27:46,599
Speaker 1: the streets, Like we got beat out of the streets,

1705
01:27:46,640 --> 01:27:49,600
Speaker 1: and like people tried for six months really intensely, and

1706
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:52,360
Speaker 1: for another six months after that less intensely to restart

1707
01:27:52,439 --> 01:27:55,040
Speaker 1: that energy. Um. There was all this works forwards, like

1708
01:27:55,080 --> 01:27:58,000
Speaker 1: a general strike on May Day, UM two thousand twelve,

1709
01:27:58,080 --> 01:28:00,320
Speaker 1: which ended up not really working, which is actually actually

1710
01:28:00,400 --> 01:28:03,920
Speaker 1: the kind of demand filled one day of action kind

1711
01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:06,800
Speaker 1: of politics that they were demanding actually really failed, which

1712
01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:09,400
Speaker 1: I think is telling. But but in the meantime, like

1713
01:28:09,560 --> 01:28:11,880
Speaker 1: you know, like occupy like Zuccati got cleared. But for

1714
01:28:11,880 --> 01:28:14,160
Speaker 1: a while, there was a thing. No one remembers this,

1715
01:28:14,240 --> 01:28:15,800
Speaker 1: I don't think, but there was a thing up in

1716
01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:19,240
Speaker 1: um uh Union Square. Um. There was an occupation for

1717
01:28:19,320 --> 01:28:21,280
Speaker 1: three weeks. There was like all the Union Square freaks

1718
01:28:21,680 --> 01:28:25,320
Speaker 1: um and like a bunch of occupiers um. And yeah,

1719
01:28:25,400 --> 01:28:28,360
Speaker 1: the cops just like it was just like batons out

1720
01:28:28,479 --> 01:28:30,720
Speaker 1: on site for a few years in New York. UM.

1721
01:28:30,760 --> 01:28:32,800
Speaker 1: And I know it was like that everywhere else or

1722
01:28:32,840 --> 01:28:35,439
Speaker 1: most everywhere else, and that that came down from on

1723
01:28:35,600 --> 01:28:38,160
Speaker 1: high that like the police were just like, oh, what

1724
01:28:38,360 --> 01:28:41,320
Speaker 1: was dangerous about this was people gathering in public. So

1725
01:28:41,439 --> 01:28:43,680
Speaker 1: we really need to like we really need to like

1726
01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:46,800
Speaker 1: enforce the Second Amendment being meaningless now, we really need

1727
01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:50,920
Speaker 1: to stop meetings from happening in public. Um. And that

1728
01:28:51,200 --> 01:28:54,080
Speaker 1: violence was super intense and super real, and a lot

1729
01:28:54,160 --> 01:28:56,560
Speaker 1: of people got beaten out of the movement, you know,

1730
01:28:56,640 --> 01:28:58,639
Speaker 1: and a lot of people got really demoralized and left.

1731
01:28:58,720 --> 01:29:02,040
Speaker 1: And I understand why. It was scary and awful and

1732
01:29:02,120 --> 01:29:04,439
Speaker 1: there was a lot of repression, and um, you know,

1733
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:06,679
Speaker 1: and it and it, and it has continued to sort

1734
01:29:06,720 --> 01:29:09,200
Speaker 1: of that that kind of repression has continued to escalate. Um.

1735
01:29:09,720 --> 01:29:12,960
Speaker 1: But what has successfully happened in our movements, I think

1736
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:14,960
Speaker 1: to our to our credit, is that we haven't actually

1737
01:29:15,040 --> 01:29:20,479
Speaker 1: formed the kinds of hierarchical organizations that allow for more

1738
01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:23,439
Speaker 1: effective police repression. All the police have right now against us,

1739
01:29:23,479 --> 01:29:26,320
Speaker 1: for the most part is batons in the street. Um.

1740
01:29:26,360 --> 01:29:29,000
Speaker 1: They have a lot more trouble infiltrating. UM, a lot

1741
01:29:29,080 --> 01:29:31,759
Speaker 1: more trouble, Which doesn't mean they aren't trying like crazy,

1742
01:29:32,080 --> 01:29:34,160
Speaker 1: but they have a lot more trouble um, um taking

1743
01:29:34,240 --> 01:29:36,360
Speaker 1: down the movements in the in a sort of cointel

1744
01:29:36,400 --> 01:29:40,120
Speaker 1: pro way, right. Um. The modes of repression have changed

1745
01:29:40,160 --> 01:29:42,600
Speaker 1: a bit. UM. But that's also because we don't have

1746
01:29:43,479 --> 01:29:44,800
Speaker 1: It's a combination of the fact that we don't have

1747
01:29:44,840 --> 01:29:46,720
Speaker 1: those forms of organization, but we also don't have those

1748
01:29:46,720 --> 01:29:50,040
Speaker 1: forms of organization because they don't emerge spontaneously from our

1749
01:29:50,080 --> 01:29:52,360
Speaker 1: living conditions like they used to. UM. So I think

1750
01:29:52,400 --> 01:29:54,960
Speaker 1: it's it's you can't just give credit to any one thing.

1751
01:29:55,040 --> 01:29:56,960
Speaker 1: There's a lot of different factors at play. I think

1752
01:29:57,840 --> 01:29:59,120
Speaker 1: I will say one of one of the other things

1753
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:01,000
Speaker 1: that that I've noticed, and I think I think I'm

1754
01:30:01,000 --> 01:30:02,720
Speaker 1: pretty sure this has happened. Talked to talk to people

1755
01:30:02,760 --> 01:30:04,479
Speaker 1: are talking about that occupies it like the first thing

1756
01:30:04,640 --> 01:30:06,280
Speaker 1: if you have a group of people who are just there,

1757
01:30:06,360 --> 01:30:07,640
Speaker 1: the first thing the cops trying to do is a

1758
01:30:07,760 --> 01:30:10,280
Speaker 1: point a leader so that they have one person that

1759
01:30:10,320 --> 01:30:12,000
Speaker 1: they can go to and this and this lets them

1760
01:30:12,040 --> 01:30:13,640
Speaker 1: sort of this this sort of like access point to

1761
01:30:13,680 --> 01:30:15,720
Speaker 1: which they sort of break like the demands of the

1762
01:30:15,760 --> 01:30:17,720
Speaker 1: crowd is that they find one person, they point in

1763
01:30:17,720 --> 01:30:19,120
Speaker 1: the leader and they get that person to sort of

1764
01:30:19,240 --> 01:30:22,400
Speaker 1: like be the liaison. My favorite Occupied joke, I gotta

1765
01:30:22,439 --> 01:30:24,280
Speaker 1: give respect to Occupy Denver. This is the best joke

1766
01:30:24,320 --> 01:30:26,760
Speaker 1: that ever happened to Occupy. They announced the beginning of

1767
01:30:26,840 --> 01:30:29,120
Speaker 1: one week on Friday, we are going to announce our leader.

1768
01:30:29,240 --> 01:30:31,639
Speaker 1: Occupy Denver has chosen a leader, and the whole movement

1769
01:30:31,680 --> 01:30:33,960
Speaker 1: got so upset. Everyone was so angry. I was like,

1770
01:30:34,040 --> 01:30:35,960
Speaker 1: what the fuck and like they have this like big

1771
01:30:36,040 --> 01:30:39,640
Speaker 1: press conference and their leader was a Golden Retriever and

1772
01:30:39,760 --> 01:30:43,720
Speaker 1: it was like, as as who knows to Occupied Denver?

1773
01:30:43,800 --> 01:30:47,040
Speaker 1: Whoever organize that prank? I love you, I guess, yeah,

1774
01:30:47,680 --> 01:30:50,000
Speaker 1: speaking thinking of kudos to a place. The last thing

1775
01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:54,040
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about was the giant like port

1776
01:30:54,160 --> 01:30:58,280
Speaker 1: occupation strike thing in Oakland, because I mean that that

1777
01:30:58,400 --> 01:31:00,519
Speaker 1: wasn't the first time people had done it, like I know,

1778
01:31:00,560 --> 01:31:02,640
Speaker 1: I know during the anti war movements even till like

1779
01:31:02,640 --> 01:31:05,360
Speaker 1: aw eight there's one of people trying to occupy ports.

1780
01:31:06,360 --> 01:31:09,920
Speaker 1: But and in Oakland they like did it. They really

1781
01:31:10,040 --> 01:31:13,479
Speaker 1: they put like forty thousand people like in this in

1782
01:31:13,680 --> 01:31:16,519
Speaker 1: the port of Oakland and they shut it down. And

1783
01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:19,600
Speaker 1: I think that was like that was one of the

1784
01:31:19,840 --> 01:31:22,439
Speaker 1: things one of the stories kind of been lost from

1785
01:31:22,520 --> 01:31:26,080
Speaker 1: this because like you know, like that was the point.

1786
01:31:26,120 --> 01:31:27,840
Speaker 1: Like so like I know people in Oakland who like

1787
01:31:28,320 --> 01:31:32,000
Speaker 1: they got like drugged, repeatedly drugged by police informants because

1788
01:31:33,000 --> 01:31:35,800
Speaker 1: particularly Okland, it's also Oakland is also way the walking

1789
01:31:35,840 --> 01:31:38,160
Speaker 1: by ok Bood is way way less white than any

1790
01:31:38,240 --> 01:31:42,080
Speaker 1: other movements, and they get like the kind of police

1791
01:31:42,080 --> 01:31:47,600
Speaker 1: oppression they get is like it's just like yeah, you

1792
01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:50,400
Speaker 1: know again like people people being repeatedly drugged by informants,

1793
01:31:50,600 --> 01:31:55,360
Speaker 1: like cops shooting people in the face, like the you know,

1794
01:31:55,479 --> 01:31:56,760
Speaker 1: you have you have the black list, you have all

1795
01:31:56,800 --> 01:32:00,519
Speaker 1: this stuff, and I think, you know, part of it, Yeah,

1796
01:32:00,680 --> 01:32:02,439
Speaker 1: And I think part of it is because part of

1797
01:32:02,520 --> 01:32:04,040
Speaker 1: it's because it's a bunch of non white people and

1798
01:32:04,360 --> 01:32:07,599
Speaker 1: that's you know, that's just what happens. But I think

1799
01:32:07,800 --> 01:32:11,120
Speaker 1: another part of it was also that there was this

1800
01:32:11,520 --> 01:32:17,360
Speaker 1: fear about Yes. So so the reason the port strike

1801
01:32:17,520 --> 01:32:20,439
Speaker 1: is able to happen is because there's sort of there's

1802
01:32:20,439 --> 01:32:23,000
Speaker 1: a complicated game here where the other people like sort

1803
01:32:23,040 --> 01:32:27,000
Speaker 1: of got involved in in like longshoreman union politics. But

1804
01:32:27,520 --> 01:32:30,680
Speaker 1: that sort of like fusion of of you have all

1805
01:32:30,680 --> 01:32:33,280
Speaker 1: the people in the street and then they start showing

1806
01:32:33,320 --> 01:32:37,000
Speaker 1: down ports and that like like the cops like lose

1807
01:32:37,120 --> 01:32:40,360
Speaker 1: their minds over that. Like that that I think was

1808
01:32:40,479 --> 01:32:46,240
Speaker 1: like extremely scary to them in a lot of wiz. Yeah,

1809
01:32:46,320 --> 01:32:48,320
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I would you know, I would

1810
01:32:48,360 --> 01:32:50,200
Speaker 1: defer to anyone from Oakland who was who was there

1811
01:32:50,240 --> 01:32:52,000
Speaker 1: during that. You know, I have comrades there, I've talked

1812
01:32:52,040 --> 01:32:54,040
Speaker 1: to you have read about it since. But you know,

1813
01:32:54,120 --> 01:32:56,879
Speaker 1: I think I think part of the heightened police oppression

1814
01:32:56,920 --> 01:32:59,479
Speaker 1: and the heightened power of the Oakland occupied Oakland folks

1815
01:32:59,600 --> 01:33:01,960
Speaker 1: was Oscar Grant rebellion. Like I mentioned the two thousand

1816
01:33:02,000 --> 01:33:03,760
Speaker 1: nine which had happened, which had you know, it had

1817
01:33:03,760 --> 01:33:05,800
Speaker 1: been a few hundred people, but it had been really rowdy.

1818
01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:08,800
Speaker 1: They'd been like looting and smashing. Um maybe maybe more

1819
01:33:08,800 --> 01:33:10,400
Speaker 1: than a few hundred, maybe near a thousand people in

1820
01:33:10,400 --> 01:33:13,280
Speaker 1: the big on the first night. UM. And you also

1821
01:33:13,360 --> 01:33:15,439
Speaker 1: obviously have the legacy of the Black Panthers in Oakland,

1822
01:33:15,560 --> 01:33:17,759
Speaker 1: So you know, the Black Panther Party, you know, forms

1823
01:33:17,760 --> 01:33:19,720
Speaker 1: in Oakland at last in Oakland a decade and a

1824
01:33:19,800 --> 01:33:22,320
Speaker 1: half longer than it does anywhere else in the country. UM.

1825
01:33:22,360 --> 01:33:24,040
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of like and you also have

1826
01:33:24,160 --> 01:33:26,840
Speaker 1: the really really intense getrification of the Bay that's happening.

1827
01:33:27,120 --> 01:33:29,519
Speaker 1: So there's an incredible political and economic pressure in the

1828
01:33:29,560 --> 01:33:33,639
Speaker 1: Bay combined with this history of radicalism that really you know, um,

1829
01:33:34,080 --> 01:33:36,439
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think also the other thing that's really interesting.

1830
01:33:36,640 --> 01:33:38,280
Speaker 1: I think what you said, like you you put your

1831
01:33:38,439 --> 01:33:39,960
Speaker 1: you know, you hit the nail on the head, like

1832
01:33:40,320 --> 01:33:42,200
Speaker 1: it was largely like it was terrifying that it was

1833
01:33:42,280 --> 01:33:44,560
Speaker 1: the most effective direct action in the occupy movement I

1834
01:33:44,640 --> 01:33:46,760
Speaker 1: think was that port shutdown. I think, without a doubt,

1835
01:33:46,840 --> 01:33:50,000
Speaker 1: like the biggest mass direct action that that occupy achieved, um,

1836
01:33:50,920 --> 01:33:52,600
Speaker 1: was that November twelve was that was that with the

1837
01:33:52,680 --> 01:33:55,639
Speaker 1: data that I remember near the end of the near

1838
01:33:55,640 --> 01:33:58,760
Speaker 1: the end of the cycle. Um. And I think like

1839
01:33:59,400 --> 01:34:02,560
Speaker 1: the other thing ing about um about that though, was

1840
01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:04,880
Speaker 1: that that was very similar to the altar globalization movement,

1841
01:34:04,960 --> 01:34:06,600
Speaker 1: right where the unions had sort of teamed up with

1842
01:34:07,040 --> 01:34:08,720
Speaker 1: you know, like in Seattle there's a lot of trade

1843
01:34:08,800 --> 01:34:10,760
Speaker 1: unions on the ground next to all the black blocks, right,

1844
01:34:11,120 --> 01:34:14,720
Speaker 1: um And I think like that that image, Um, I

1845
01:34:14,800 --> 01:34:17,759
Speaker 1: think really it's really interesting. It really terrified the police,

1846
01:34:17,800 --> 01:34:20,439
Speaker 1: and it really it could be it could have been

1847
01:34:20,479 --> 01:34:23,439
Speaker 1: a vector for a certain kind of like labor first

1848
01:34:23,520 --> 01:34:26,120
Speaker 1: politics that could have emerged. But instead, like the labor

1849
01:34:26,120 --> 01:34:28,479
Speaker 1: first people have turned out to be all electoralists. Yeah,

1850
01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:30,280
Speaker 1: it seems that that's sort of a weird blip that

1851
01:34:30,360 --> 01:34:33,840
Speaker 1: hasn't really returned. Um. Yeah. And it's interesting too because

1852
01:34:33,920 --> 01:34:36,920
Speaker 1: like because now like you know, like the the the

1853
01:34:37,240 --> 01:34:39,320
Speaker 1: a f l C. I oh, just like you know

1854
01:34:39,800 --> 01:34:41,599
Speaker 1: a f l C A is like no cop unions great,

1855
01:34:41,640 --> 01:34:43,040
Speaker 1: and it's like there's this there's this sort of like

1856
01:34:43,640 --> 01:34:48,200
Speaker 1: split between the street movements and organized labor because they're

1857
01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:52,840
Speaker 1: off doing like electoral stuff and like cops ship, which

1858
01:34:52,920 --> 01:34:56,040
Speaker 1: is this sort of yeah, and and and and have

1859
01:34:56,200 --> 01:34:58,160
Speaker 1: been now for for seven decades, you know, I mean,

1860
01:34:58,280 --> 01:35:01,120
Speaker 1: I mean really like like the the buying off of

1861
01:35:01,200 --> 01:35:03,280
Speaker 1: the unions and the New Deal, um, you know, with

1862
01:35:03,439 --> 01:35:05,759
Speaker 1: some brief you know, with brief windows of like wildcat

1863
01:35:05,800 --> 01:35:08,479
Speaker 1: action in the seventies and the nineties, Um, the buying

1864
01:35:08,520 --> 01:35:10,320
Speaker 1: off of the unions has has never really gone away.

1865
01:35:10,360 --> 01:35:12,800
Speaker 1: Industrial unionism in the US has has long been and

1866
01:35:12,960 --> 01:35:16,360
Speaker 1: in and in Europe everywhere where everywhere where those developed

1867
01:35:16,400 --> 01:35:18,719
Speaker 1: in the early twenty century, that labor movement, Um, they've

1868
01:35:18,720 --> 01:35:22,680
Speaker 1: really been successfully bought off. And I don't think there

1869
01:35:22,840 --> 01:35:25,360
Speaker 1: is uh. I don't think that those unions are like

1870
01:35:25,640 --> 01:35:28,360
Speaker 1: a big easy route to power any more than I don't.

1871
01:35:28,360 --> 01:35:30,679
Speaker 1: I don't like I don't think they're gonna overthrow the government.

1872
01:35:30,680 --> 01:35:32,120
Speaker 1: I mean, but I will say, yeah, this is this

1873
01:35:32,240 --> 01:35:34,200
Speaker 1: is my my also my the thing that I plug

1874
01:35:34,280 --> 01:35:35,640
Speaker 1: every time is at the a f l C. I

1875
01:35:35,720 --> 01:35:38,720
Speaker 1: oh overthrew a end a like yeah, like like they

1876
01:35:38,880 --> 01:35:41,360
Speaker 1: they they're there are people on the ground were like

1877
01:35:41,600 --> 01:35:45,400
Speaker 1: directing like like we're directing a bunch of the anti

1878
01:35:45,439 --> 01:35:47,200
Speaker 1: a end a stuff. And it's like and it was

1879
01:35:47,240 --> 01:35:49,400
Speaker 1: the and it was the union bureaucracies like more recently

1880
01:35:49,479 --> 01:35:51,519
Speaker 1: in two thousand one, who are in the wake of

1881
01:35:51,720 --> 01:35:56,599
Speaker 1: September eleventh, who transformed the anti globalization rhetoric into buy American,

1882
01:35:57,360 --> 01:35:59,719
Speaker 1: which it turned out was often buying prison made materials.

1883
01:36:00,439 --> 01:36:01,880
Speaker 1: But like that was that was the union. The union

1884
01:36:01,960 --> 01:36:06,000
Speaker 1: sort of um defanged, defanged, alter globalization into buy American.

1885
01:36:06,120 --> 01:36:08,000
Speaker 1: And there's there's something like there's a whole another story

1886
01:36:08,080 --> 01:36:11,960
Speaker 1: there about how that like how anti globalization turned from

1887
01:36:12,160 --> 01:36:17,080
Speaker 1: like you know, the Zapatistas to like Trump, which is

1888
01:36:17,120 --> 01:36:20,880
Speaker 1: incredibly depressing, and yeah, goes goes through this line of

1889
01:36:21,000 --> 01:36:25,720
Speaker 1: sort of like the replacement of internationalism with nationalism and

1890
01:36:26,080 --> 01:36:28,800
Speaker 1: that kind of like by local stuff and the fact

1891
01:36:28,960 --> 01:36:35,200
Speaker 1: that like these people sort of just decided that you

1892
01:36:35,280 --> 01:36:37,720
Speaker 1: know personally after Seattle Port step and eleven, they're just like,

1893
01:36:37,880 --> 01:36:40,519
Speaker 1: we're not doing direct action again. And in Oakland's like

1894
01:36:40,640 --> 01:36:43,559
Speaker 1: Oaklands like like that. That's like that's like the one

1895
01:36:43,600 --> 01:36:46,519
Speaker 1: big exception to that was that moment, and then it

1896
01:36:46,640 --> 01:36:49,920
Speaker 1: just kind of just has never happened again. And that's

1897
01:36:49,960 --> 01:36:52,360
Speaker 1: partially because that that union that I l W is

1898
01:36:52,400 --> 01:36:54,680
Speaker 1: I l W I think out there is on the

1899
01:36:54,800 --> 01:36:57,439
Speaker 1: on the boards that was a particularly like radical union

1900
01:36:57,479 --> 01:37:00,400
Speaker 1: that had happen in wildcats like and and like like

1901
01:37:00,560 --> 01:37:02,439
Speaker 1: more democratic than any of the many of the other

1902
01:37:02,520 --> 01:37:05,160
Speaker 1: unions in in in those those ships. But uh yeah,

1903
01:37:05,360 --> 01:37:08,639
Speaker 1: but that's that's also like a big story for another time. Obviously.

1904
01:37:09,240 --> 01:37:13,719
Speaker 1: The conotation of global antiglobalization over the twenty year period, Yeah,

1905
01:37:15,200 --> 01:37:16,840
Speaker 1: you know, it's just kind of corny. But like what

1906
01:37:16,960 --> 01:37:20,120
Speaker 1: what can we actually learn from what happened there? What

1907
01:37:20,200 --> 01:37:27,840
Speaker 1: went wrong and sort of what the limits of it was? Yeah, okay,

1908
01:37:27,920 --> 01:37:30,800
Speaker 1: So the legacy, So I think one legacy that um,

1909
01:37:30,880 --> 01:37:33,320
Speaker 1: the legacy that is most widely accepted and known, which

1910
01:37:33,360 --> 01:37:37,640
Speaker 1: we can go over quickly, is that it reintroduced class discourse,

1911
01:37:38,160 --> 01:37:40,920
Speaker 1: largely into the popular you know, the n which is

1912
01:37:40,960 --> 01:37:43,680
Speaker 1: a very very bad class politics. But like you know,

1913
01:37:43,840 --> 01:37:46,680
Speaker 1: like um, like the you know, it reintroduced some of

1914
01:37:46,760 --> 01:37:50,720
Speaker 1: that sort of class war class war discourse and UM

1915
01:37:50,960 --> 01:37:53,760
Speaker 1: and I think more important than that, but but not

1916
01:37:53,960 --> 01:37:58,920
Speaker 1: that dissimilar. It um reintroduced um street politics into the US. UM.

1917
01:37:59,040 --> 01:38:01,880
Speaker 1: I think a part of legacy that gets forgotten UM

1918
01:38:02,439 --> 01:38:05,920
Speaker 1: because like the general the global nous of the wave

1919
01:38:06,000 --> 01:38:10,120
Speaker 1: gets forgotten as well, Like is that when when ship

1920
01:38:10,240 --> 01:38:13,920
Speaker 1: pops off in New York, everyone in the world knows,

1921
01:38:14,360 --> 01:38:16,640
Speaker 1: or at least they did then, right, because America had

1922
01:38:16,680 --> 01:38:21,639
Speaker 1: been so successfully you know, appeased politically for so long

1923
01:38:21,960 --> 01:38:24,519
Speaker 1: that I think that when occupy popped off um in

1924
01:38:26,160 --> 01:38:28,439
Speaker 1: rather it really like signals to the world, like the

1925
01:38:28,479 --> 01:38:29,920
Speaker 1: rest of the world like, oh, like this is real,

1926
01:38:30,040 --> 01:38:31,599
Speaker 1: like even in the you know, even in the center

1927
01:38:31,640 --> 01:38:34,960
Speaker 1: of empire, like like people are rising up. UM. It's

1928
01:38:34,960 --> 01:38:36,920
Speaker 1: hard to remember, and it's weird, but like there was

1929
01:38:36,920 --> 01:38:40,080
Speaker 1: an occupy in uh New York, in a UK, there

1930
01:38:40,160 --> 01:38:41,680
Speaker 1: was one in tel Aviv. There was actually kind of

1931
01:38:41,680 --> 01:38:44,800
Speaker 1: like a pro Palestinian occupy in tel Aviv briefly UM.

1932
01:38:45,360 --> 01:38:47,840
Speaker 1: And you know, I think maybe the most powerful sort

1933
01:38:47,880 --> 01:38:51,400
Speaker 1: of immediate tactical um offshoot of occupied was occupyed Nigeria

1934
01:38:51,920 --> 01:38:55,599
Speaker 1: UM in the first weeks of UM when President good

1935
01:38:55,640 --> 01:39:00,160
Speaker 1: Luck Jonathan um took took the fuel subsidies away and

1936
01:39:00,240 --> 01:39:02,360
Speaker 1: they were like sort of two weeks of really intense

1937
01:39:02,400 --> 01:39:05,960
Speaker 1: revolutionary rioting um in in Nigeria. That that then called

1938
01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:08,200
Speaker 1: themselves Occupy as a way of being legible to the

1939
01:39:08,240 --> 01:39:13,000
Speaker 1: rest of the world. UM. I think the other legacies

1940
01:39:13,080 --> 01:39:15,759
Speaker 1: though that are that are a little more sort of subtle.

1941
01:39:15,960 --> 01:39:18,200
Speaker 1: I guess is like that a lot of folks still

1942
01:39:18,240 --> 01:39:20,400
Speaker 1: in the struggle now, Like I will still meet people

1943
01:39:20,680 --> 01:39:22,760
Speaker 1: you know, my age, who like I've met I have

1944
01:39:22,840 --> 01:39:24,640
Speaker 1: two comrades here in Philly who I didn't know at

1945
01:39:24,640 --> 01:39:26,400
Speaker 1: the time, but who were organizing in New York, right,

1946
01:39:26,560 --> 01:39:28,519
Speaker 1: Like we probably hung out in rooms together, Like we

1947
01:39:28,600 --> 01:39:30,320
Speaker 1: probably like we were probably in the same space as

1948
01:39:30,680 --> 01:39:32,400
Speaker 1: But like so like a lot of folks, you know

1949
01:39:32,840 --> 01:39:36,240
Speaker 1: it each of these waves that has come has left.

1950
01:39:36,400 --> 01:39:38,600
Speaker 1: You know, some people leave, some people swing right, but

1951
01:39:38,760 --> 01:39:41,200
Speaker 1: like there's a residue of folks that like becomes the

1952
01:39:41,240 --> 01:39:43,759
Speaker 1: base for the next movement. And I think like occupy

1953
01:39:43,840 --> 01:39:46,599
Speaker 1: really did provide a lot of people in a way

1954
01:39:46,640 --> 01:39:50,960
Speaker 1: that the gap between alter globalization and occupy didn't produce

1955
01:39:51,200 --> 01:39:53,439
Speaker 1: nearly as large a contingent of people, although of course

1956
01:39:53,479 --> 01:39:56,240
Speaker 1: there are those people, UM, but I think also like

1957
01:39:57,040 --> 01:40:00,840
Speaker 1: really importantly like the tactics of occupy. Like one of

1958
01:40:00,880 --> 01:40:02,960
Speaker 1: the things that was incredible about the George Floyd uprising

1959
01:40:03,240 --> 01:40:06,680
Speaker 1: was that every tactic that we UM have tried in

1960
01:40:06,680 --> 01:40:09,080
Speaker 1: the last ten years re emerged. Right there was a

1961
01:40:09,160 --> 01:40:13,200
Speaker 1: prison strike, there were indigenous blockades, there were me too

1962
01:40:13,280 --> 01:40:16,240
Speaker 1: style callouts UM, which of course developed out of um

1963
01:40:16,479 --> 01:40:18,280
Speaker 1: punk and queer scene callouts that have been going on

1964
01:40:18,320 --> 01:40:20,240
Speaker 1: for a decade. But there were occupations, right, you had

1965
01:40:20,280 --> 01:40:24,479
Speaker 1: the chairs in Seattle, which we can you know, well,

1966
01:40:24,640 --> 01:40:27,439
Speaker 1: well what we're yeah, we will get to that one

1967
01:40:27,520 --> 01:40:30,360
Speaker 1: day in any case, In any case, like I think

1968
01:40:30,439 --> 01:40:34,400
Speaker 1: like that that has remained in the repertoire of poltarian struggle,

1969
01:40:34,760 --> 01:40:37,760
Speaker 1: like as a result of of occupy and and and

1970
01:40:37,880 --> 01:40:39,560
Speaker 1: if it had just been occupied, maybe it wouldn't be

1971
01:40:39,600 --> 01:40:41,639
Speaker 1: as a result of the global movement of the squares,

1972
01:40:41,880 --> 01:40:46,000
Speaker 1: which obviously goes until Terrier Square and Turkey, I think

1973
01:40:46,040 --> 01:40:50,639
Speaker 1: it's probably the Gezi Park in a Turkey, UM, which

1974
01:40:50,680 --> 01:40:53,160
Speaker 1: is like the last big moment of the squares really, um.

1975
01:40:53,479 --> 01:40:56,360
Speaker 1: But that five year wave like it was really really important,

1976
01:40:56,479 --> 01:41:00,400
Speaker 1: um globally, really really important locally as well, UM in

1977
01:41:00,520 --> 01:41:03,200
Speaker 1: terms of building activists, building a class of of well

1978
01:41:03,320 --> 01:41:05,640
Speaker 1: I don't you know whatever, building revolutionaries, whatever you want

1979
01:41:05,680 --> 01:41:07,560
Speaker 1: to call them, the good version of the thing, not

1980
01:41:07,680 --> 01:41:10,320
Speaker 1: the bad version of it produced a lot of them. Um.

1981
01:41:10,560 --> 01:41:14,400
Speaker 1: And and I think like in terms of its limits

1982
01:41:14,439 --> 01:41:15,880
Speaker 1: and like what we can learn from it, Like I

1983
01:41:16,120 --> 01:41:19,040
Speaker 1: think I think taking the police more seriously, it was

1984
01:41:19,080 --> 01:41:21,439
Speaker 1: really important. I think taking police violence more seriously was

1985
01:41:21,439 --> 01:41:25,519
Speaker 1: a really important legacy of occupy. I think, um, I

1986
01:41:25,680 --> 01:41:30,519
Speaker 1: think pushing towards the limit of what total democracy meant.

1987
01:41:30,520 --> 01:41:32,560
Speaker 1: A lot of people and Occupy remember that, like a

1988
01:41:32,640 --> 01:41:34,960
Speaker 1: lot of Ron Paul people and like weirdo like and

1989
01:41:35,120 --> 01:41:38,120
Speaker 1: the Fed cranks and like right wingers like spoken Occupy

1990
01:41:38,160 --> 01:41:41,800
Speaker 1: and like that. That that total open populism of of

1991
01:41:41,880 --> 01:41:45,680
Speaker 1: occupy I think was both probably its greatest strength and

1992
01:41:45,760 --> 01:41:47,960
Speaker 1: its ultimate limit, right, which was that like it was

1993
01:41:48,120 --> 01:41:50,840
Speaker 1: never going to be able to really like sharpen itself

1994
01:41:50,920 --> 01:41:52,680
Speaker 1: into the into the knife, and it wanted to be

1995
01:41:52,840 --> 01:41:55,400
Speaker 1: to like really change the face of of global capital

1996
01:41:55,520 --> 01:42:00,400
Speaker 1: or whatever um because of because there were so many white, yeah,

1997
01:42:00,439 --> 01:42:03,519
Speaker 1: middle class like like a bunch of the like a

1998
01:42:03,600 --> 01:42:05,639
Speaker 1: lot of the like the current for right media people

1999
01:42:05,680 --> 01:42:10,880
Speaker 1: came buy like Center Fairbanks was like an occupy streamer Simpool, Yeah,

2000
01:42:11,520 --> 01:42:14,320
Speaker 1: you're welcome. For Tim Poole, um, who was filming on

2001
01:42:14,400 --> 01:42:16,800
Speaker 1: the last day, a bunch of us um doing some

2002
01:42:17,000 --> 01:42:20,679
Speaker 1: things and Tim Poole did not manage to continue filming,

2003
01:42:20,840 --> 01:42:23,080
Speaker 1: is all I'll say. And after that is when he

2004
01:42:23,120 --> 01:42:29,760
Speaker 1: started swinging right. So you're welcomever um anyway, Sorry, that

2005
01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:31,680
Speaker 1: guy is a fucking asshole. He was an asshole then. Though.

2006
01:42:31,800 --> 01:42:33,040
Speaker 1: I think what's important to know is that a lot

2007
01:42:33,040 --> 01:42:35,280
Speaker 1: of these people were suss as hell back then to

2008
01:42:35,479 --> 01:42:38,360
Speaker 1: occupy folks, like they were around and occupy because of

2009
01:42:38,439 --> 01:42:40,960
Speaker 1: the nature of occupy, like but like they were, we

2010
01:42:41,040 --> 01:42:42,840
Speaker 1: already didn't like them, you know, like a lot of

2011
01:42:42,880 --> 01:42:45,640
Speaker 1: these people were already unpopular. We're already just liked in

2012
01:42:45,760 --> 01:42:50,800
Speaker 1: the movement. Um. So yeah, um, but yeah, I think

2013
01:42:50,880 --> 01:42:53,880
Speaker 1: I think so, I think you know, there is there

2014
01:42:54,000 --> 01:42:57,240
Speaker 1: there are all these different legacies, um from it that

2015
01:42:57,479 --> 01:43:01,800
Speaker 1: I think, Um, ultimately, the legacy things that emerged are

2016
01:43:01,880 --> 01:43:04,080
Speaker 1: much more important than occupy. Um. I think, you know,

2017
01:43:04,160 --> 01:43:06,040
Speaker 1: one of the things about it was that it really

2018
01:43:06,200 --> 01:43:08,840
Speaker 1: was just like the reemergence of street politics, and like

2019
01:43:09,640 --> 01:43:12,160
Speaker 1: like as the re emergence of street politics, like it

2020
01:43:12,360 --> 01:43:15,880
Speaker 1: was pretty limited, and it was not that effective at

2021
01:43:15,960 --> 01:43:19,840
Speaker 1: changing things. Um. And also it was incredibly effective at

2022
01:43:19,920 --> 01:43:21,760
Speaker 1: leading to those last decade of struggle in the US,

2023
01:43:21,840 --> 01:43:24,200
Speaker 1: And I think you can't you know, I think there's

2024
01:43:24,200 --> 01:43:28,080
Speaker 1: a tendency to want to judge movements by the immediate

2025
01:43:28,280 --> 01:43:32,960
Speaker 1: results that they produce, you know. Um, And like you know,

2026
01:43:33,040 --> 01:43:35,479
Speaker 1: I think it is my about to quote now, I

2027
01:43:35,520 --> 01:43:37,800
Speaker 1: think I am was it like when when he gets asked,

2028
01:43:37,840 --> 01:43:39,960
Speaker 1: you know, what was the what was the you know,

2029
01:43:40,080 --> 01:43:42,439
Speaker 1: in in the twentie anniversary of the Chinese Revolution, he

2030
01:43:42,479 --> 01:43:45,959
Speaker 1: gets asked like, what was the what was the outcome

2031
01:43:46,120 --> 01:43:48,560
Speaker 1: of the Chinese Revolution? He says, it's too early to tell, right, Like,

2032
01:43:48,640 --> 01:43:51,200
Speaker 1: I think, like that maybe that's I don't remember who

2033
01:43:51,240 --> 01:43:55,439
Speaker 1: that is. They were right, Yeah, they were right. A

2034
01:43:55,520 --> 01:43:58,479
Speaker 1: lot more people died than what we thought. Yeah, it's like,

2035
01:43:58,560 --> 01:44:03,760
Speaker 1: yeah they successfully transition to capitalism and yeah, yeah it

2036
01:44:03,920 --> 01:44:06,599
Speaker 1: was yeah. So, um, so what was the results of occupy?

2037
01:44:06,680 --> 01:44:09,280
Speaker 1: It's too early to tell, um, But I think like

2038
01:44:09,960 --> 01:44:12,240
Speaker 1: I also think, like the things that we've talked about

2039
01:44:12,280 --> 01:44:15,000
Speaker 1: here um where we're core components of what what why

2040
01:44:15,040 --> 01:44:17,080
Speaker 1: it matters. I do think one other kind of effect

2041
01:44:17,160 --> 01:44:18,719
Speaker 1: that it's had. And It's hard for me to gauge

2042
01:44:18,800 --> 01:44:22,360
Speaker 1: this because I've only been around post occupy, but I

2043
01:44:22,479 --> 01:44:25,280
Speaker 1: feel like now when people try to get stuff started,

2044
01:44:25,680 --> 01:44:29,840
Speaker 1: they really fall kind of into an occupy mindset where

2045
01:44:29,840 --> 01:44:33,080
Speaker 1: they're like, the only way to make this successful is

2046
01:44:33,120 --> 01:44:35,800
Speaker 1: to hold this space. And I think that is really

2047
01:44:35,880 --> 01:44:38,879
Speaker 1: a default way that even more experience, like both experienced

2048
01:44:38,920 --> 01:44:42,200
Speaker 1: organizers and new organizers. Really, can I keep you saying

2049
01:44:42,280 --> 01:44:44,479
Speaker 1: we're default it's because like that's just that's just really

2050
01:44:44,560 --> 01:44:46,680
Speaker 1: like what they go into. You saw this in a

2051
01:44:46,680 --> 01:44:48,760
Speaker 1: lot of different cities last year, really like people trying

2052
01:44:48,800 --> 01:44:51,680
Speaker 1: to set up spaces to hold UM. A lot of

2053
01:44:51,720 --> 01:44:54,360
Speaker 1: them did not work. You know a lot of them.

2054
01:44:54,400 --> 01:44:55,880
Speaker 1: A lot of them were like, oh, yeah, we're trying

2055
01:44:55,880 --> 01:44:57,880
Speaker 1: to try to hold the space for like an hour,

2056
01:44:58,120 --> 01:45:00,519
Speaker 1: because then the cops pushed us out right, and you know,

2057
01:45:00,640 --> 01:45:03,200
Speaker 1: in a place like the Chairs, it got extended out

2058
01:45:03,200 --> 01:45:05,760
Speaker 1: a bit longer that Chas had its own problems UM

2059
01:45:06,439 --> 01:45:09,040
Speaker 1: and other cities in the Pacific Northwest. This happened a city,

2060
01:45:10,439 --> 01:45:12,599
Speaker 1: it happened, and it happened a lot of places. I mean,

2061
01:45:12,680 --> 01:45:14,800
Speaker 1: like I think George Floyd Square is maybe one of

2062
01:45:14,880 --> 01:45:18,920
Speaker 1: the more honestly successful ones UM for how they were

2063
01:45:18,960 --> 01:45:22,640
Speaker 1: able to actually kind of keep police away, and they

2064
01:45:22,720 --> 01:45:25,720
Speaker 1: did they avoided turning it into this big media thing

2065
01:45:25,840 --> 01:45:29,680
Speaker 1: like like with the Chaz did UM. And I don't know,

2066
01:45:29,960 --> 01:45:33,439
Speaker 1: I think I grew very and I saw a lot

2067
01:45:33,520 --> 01:45:36,040
Speaker 1: of people kind of grow kind of frustrated with this

2068
01:45:36,160 --> 01:45:39,479
Speaker 1: like kind of occupy mentality, because what that kind of

2069
01:45:39,720 --> 01:45:43,280
Speaker 1: results in is people just setting up outside of a

2070
01:45:43,479 --> 01:45:45,599
Speaker 1: police head quarters and trying to stay there for as

2071
01:45:45,640 --> 01:45:48,559
Speaker 1: long as possible, which is like that's not doing anything,

2072
01:45:48,600 --> 01:45:51,840
Speaker 1: You're just kind of waiting to get beat up. Um. Yeah. Yeah.

2073
01:45:51,880 --> 01:45:54,360
Speaker 1: But it's complicated though, right, Like in defense of that tactic,

2074
01:45:55,160 --> 01:45:57,519
Speaker 1: like I think like like that was also very color.

2075
01:45:57,600 --> 01:45:59,880
Speaker 1: That was also very core to Ferguson. Right, they held

2076
01:46:00,000 --> 01:46:02,479
Speaker 1: West Florescent for a week and a half. Now, they

2077
01:46:02,520 --> 01:46:04,280
Speaker 1: did it much. They didn't do it by setting up

2078
01:46:04,320 --> 01:46:06,439
Speaker 1: tents and sitting there. Um. And also like you know,

2079
01:46:06,560 --> 01:46:08,360
Speaker 1: like like a thing that gets forgotten a lot in

2080
01:46:08,439 --> 01:46:10,200
Speaker 1: the lot in the histories, you know, Occupy Ice it

2081
01:46:10,240 --> 01:46:12,439
Speaker 1: was pretty spot. I was big here in Philly, it was.

2082
01:46:12,600 --> 01:46:14,960
Speaker 1: It was massive here in Portland. Yeah. Yeah. So so

2083
01:46:15,040 --> 01:46:17,760
Speaker 1: like there were moments when that tactic really does like

2084
01:46:18,120 --> 01:46:19,800
Speaker 1: it's important to have a space to meet in, and

2085
01:46:19,840 --> 01:46:21,880
Speaker 1: I think we did learn that. But I also agree

2086
01:46:21,920 --> 01:46:24,639
Speaker 1: that it has become like any tactic that works once

2087
01:46:24,720 --> 01:46:27,519
Speaker 1: it becomes a fetish, Right Yeah, it's always trying to

2088
01:46:27,600 --> 01:46:30,800
Speaker 1: balance space because like you know, the two big things

2089
01:46:30,840 --> 01:46:33,400
Speaker 1: that have happened the past ten years, it's occupying Hong Kong.

2090
01:46:33,920 --> 01:46:36,439
Speaker 1: So people try to balance these two kind of almost

2091
01:46:36,479 --> 01:46:40,160
Speaker 1: opposing things like hold this space and be water. That's

2092
01:46:40,240 --> 01:46:42,080
Speaker 1: kind of the two things that people yell at the

2093
01:46:42,120 --> 01:46:44,280
Speaker 1: street back and forth, and no one really knows what

2094
01:46:44,360 --> 01:46:47,240
Speaker 1: to do because it was yelling slogans and and and

2095
01:46:48,000 --> 01:46:50,400
Speaker 1: I was I was there saying about this. So they're

2096
01:46:50,560 --> 01:46:52,599
Speaker 1: like the one time the people in Hong Kong got

2097
01:46:52,640 --> 01:46:54,240
Speaker 1: pinned down when when they had to and they had

2098
01:46:55,040 --> 01:46:58,280
Speaker 1: versa siege, it was a ship show, like you know what,

2099
01:46:58,320 --> 01:47:01,719
Speaker 1: I like, the people in Hong Kong, like you know, okay,

2100
01:47:01,760 --> 01:47:04,000
Speaker 1: like even when they're like they they did not have

2101
01:47:04,400 --> 01:47:07,240
Speaker 1: by by by the time you're getting to the sort

2102
01:47:07,280 --> 01:47:10,680
Speaker 1: of decision of the universities like that, like you know,

2103
01:47:10,800 --> 01:47:13,840
Speaker 1: like they had like Moloto they had like like Molotov workshops,

2104
01:47:14,360 --> 01:47:16,719
Speaker 1: Like there were people like standing on the roof shooting

2105
01:47:16,720 --> 01:47:18,240
Speaker 1: bows and arrows and cops and it's like it just

2106
01:47:18,400 --> 01:47:20,920
Speaker 1: wasn't enough. And I mean and part partially partially that

2107
01:47:20,920 --> 01:47:23,360
Speaker 1: has to do with the fact that, like you know,

2108
01:47:23,760 --> 01:47:26,280
Speaker 1: Hong Kong is in a uniquely bad position insofar as

2109
01:47:26,320 --> 01:47:28,519
Speaker 1: it is one city, and it's like the the the

2110
01:47:28,680 --> 01:47:31,559
Speaker 1: only possible way that a supposed movement in Hong Kong,

2111
01:47:32,280 --> 01:47:36,120
Speaker 1: like ever just doesn't get crushed by just the fact

2112
01:47:36,160 --> 01:47:38,439
Speaker 1: that they're outnumbered, like a thousand to one is if

2113
01:47:38,640 --> 01:47:42,120
Speaker 1: it spreads. But like yeah, and it became this you know,

2114
01:47:42,240 --> 01:47:46,000
Speaker 1: like that that moments like yeah, that the this that

2115
01:47:46,160 --> 01:47:48,599
Speaker 1: that the whole problem with with friend to hold space

2116
01:47:48,880 --> 01:47:51,759
Speaker 1: because really apparently because even if you have an extremely

2117
01:47:51,840 --> 01:47:56,480
Speaker 1: large number of people right like like attacking one isolated

2118
01:47:56,560 --> 01:47:58,599
Speaker 1: space in mass even think the cops are really good

2119
01:47:58,640 --> 01:48:00,360
Speaker 1: at and I think they really bad at is trying

2120
01:48:00,400 --> 01:48:03,679
Speaker 1: to deal with like you know, like five hundred people,

2121
01:48:04,080 --> 01:48:06,559
Speaker 1: like seven hundred instances of five hundred people going through

2122
01:48:06,600 --> 01:48:09,519
Speaker 1: places because it just aren't enough of them. But yeah,

2123
01:48:09,560 --> 01:48:12,519
Speaker 1: that was what was it? Like the head of who

2124
01:48:12,640 --> 01:48:16,240
Speaker 1: wasn't it was a big and then National police in

2125
01:48:16,280 --> 01:48:19,200
Speaker 1: the National Police, uh you know whatever um said that

2126
01:48:19,320 --> 01:48:21,640
Speaker 1: like we can very easily handle one march of ten

2127
01:48:21,680 --> 01:48:23,640
Speaker 1: thousand people, but we can't handle ten marches of one.

2128
01:48:24,479 --> 01:48:26,400
Speaker 1: It was and you gotta see this in Chicago too,

2129
01:48:26,479 --> 01:48:27,799
Speaker 1: like this is this is this is how the police

2130
01:48:27,840 --> 01:48:30,519
Speaker 1: lost control of of of the miracle miles. Like yeah,

2131
01:48:30,560 --> 01:48:34,240
Speaker 1: it was just there's people everywhere for everywhere, and yeah,

2132
01:48:34,280 --> 01:48:36,519
Speaker 1: I don't know, yah know, And that's and that's how

2133
01:48:36,640 --> 01:48:38,519
Speaker 1: that's that's what you know. I mean, certainly in Philly

2134
01:48:38,560 --> 01:48:40,360
Speaker 1: where it was where it was very very powerful. That's

2135
01:48:40,360 --> 01:48:42,120
Speaker 1: what the George Flood rebellion looked like, was with people

2136
01:48:42,120 --> 01:48:45,080
Speaker 1: were everywhere in Philly, all the neighborhoods, you know, people

2137
01:48:45,160 --> 01:48:47,679
Speaker 1: didn't you know, like we were out there, you know whatever,

2138
01:48:48,160 --> 01:48:51,400
Speaker 1: um and like they're like people didn't know what was

2139
01:48:51,400 --> 01:48:53,200
Speaker 1: going on three blocks south, you know what I mean,

2140
01:48:53,240 --> 01:48:54,720
Speaker 1: Like it was like that, like there was just there

2141
01:48:54,760 --> 01:48:58,000
Speaker 1: were fights happening everywhere. And under those conditions, the police

2142
01:48:58,040 --> 01:49:01,000
Speaker 1: can't can't, no matter how tries they are, they can't

2143
01:49:01,000 --> 01:49:05,040
Speaker 1: act um effectively anyway they can act. They certainly will

2144
01:49:05,439 --> 01:49:09,679
Speaker 1: they will act like pigs um. But but I think like, yeah,

2145
01:49:09,760 --> 01:49:12,200
Speaker 1: so I think that that that sort of dispersion. But

2146
01:49:12,280 --> 01:49:14,200
Speaker 1: I think the other there's so there's I'm going to

2147
01:49:14,479 --> 01:49:17,080
Speaker 1: promote a really really weirdo crank book right now, but

2148
01:49:18,400 --> 01:49:23,719
Speaker 1: before twentie century, like literary weirdos. Guy uh Elias Connetti

2149
01:49:24,080 --> 01:49:28,559
Speaker 1: um Italian wrote this book called Crowds and Power, where

2150
01:49:28,600 --> 01:49:31,680
Speaker 1: he attempts to he attempts to describe the entirety of

2151
01:49:31,760 --> 01:49:34,800
Speaker 1: human history and anthropology in terms of crowds. This is

2152
01:49:34,840 --> 01:49:38,800
Speaker 1: obviously impossible and ridiculous, but that book has the best

2153
01:49:38,920 --> 01:49:43,080
Speaker 1: descriptions of crowd dynamics I have ever encountered anywhere, And

2154
01:49:43,120 --> 01:49:45,400
Speaker 1: I like, I like people who take big swings because

2155
01:49:45,439 --> 01:49:48,000
Speaker 1: they end up they miss. Yeah, miss has lots of

2156
01:49:48,120 --> 01:49:50,479
Speaker 1: interesting stuff. UM. I think that's why people like Settlers

2157
01:49:50,520 --> 01:49:52,120
Speaker 1: by Jason Kai so much. Like I think the thesis

2158
01:49:52,200 --> 01:49:54,080
Speaker 1: wasn't great, but there's so much incredible stuff in that

2159
01:49:54,160 --> 01:49:56,960
Speaker 1: book that like it works anyway. UM that having a

2160
01:49:57,000 --> 01:49:59,200
Speaker 1: really wild thesis allows you to like really like get

2161
01:49:59,240 --> 01:50:02,320
Speaker 1: into some so anyway, one of the things that Connetti

2162
01:50:02,360 --> 01:50:05,840
Speaker 1: talks about in that book is that UM a crowd UH,

2163
01:50:06,000 --> 01:50:08,320
Speaker 1: an open crowd, as he describes it, an open crowd

2164
01:50:08,920 --> 01:50:12,920
Speaker 1: is UM must constantly be growing, and the moment it

2165
01:50:13,000 --> 01:50:16,639
Speaker 1: stops growing, it starts shrinking. Right like this, I think

2166
01:50:16,680 --> 01:50:20,000
Speaker 1: that dynamic UM in terms of both movement and like

2167
01:50:20,600 --> 01:50:23,720
Speaker 1: a momentary protest or riot, right is like really real,

2168
01:50:23,960 --> 01:50:27,519
Speaker 1: I can and I think one of the things that UM,

2169
01:50:27,800 --> 01:50:30,040
Speaker 1: particularly organizers, are trained to do and like that that

2170
01:50:30,240 --> 01:50:32,120
Speaker 1: that we learned to do, especially in law periods, and

2171
01:50:32,160 --> 01:50:34,400
Speaker 1: we're like organizing these little you know, you know, these

2172
01:50:34,439 --> 01:50:38,320
Speaker 1: little crystallized groups of like hard cadre or whatever is that,

2173
01:50:38,439 --> 01:50:40,960
Speaker 1: like you that like what we learn as organized is

2174
01:50:41,120 --> 01:50:44,920
Speaker 1: something that is defendable. But once you start defending something,

2175
01:50:45,200 --> 01:50:48,680
Speaker 1: you start losing it because we cannot take on the

2176
01:50:48,800 --> 01:50:51,800
Speaker 1: state or the police in a head on confrontation. Um.

2177
01:50:52,000 --> 01:50:54,840
Speaker 1: And this is this can be confusing because sometimes you

2178
01:50:54,880 --> 01:50:56,920
Speaker 1: can successfully defend for a few weeks, maybe even a

2179
01:50:56,960 --> 01:51:00,200
Speaker 1: few months. You can defend a space sometimes, but once

2180
01:51:00,240 --> 01:51:03,240
Speaker 1: people get really interested in the defending, then they begin

2181
01:51:03,360 --> 01:51:07,160
Speaker 1: forming bureaucracies, governments, internal policing, security forces, whatever it is.

2182
01:51:07,560 --> 01:51:11,080
Speaker 1: They start becoming the like the the They start undermining

2183
01:51:11,160 --> 01:51:13,040
Speaker 1: the very thing that made it powerful, which was this

2184
01:51:13,240 --> 01:51:16,120
Speaker 1: sudden rapid growth, the sudden like you know, like like

2185
01:51:16,320 --> 01:51:20,280
Speaker 1: big explosion of power and self recognition that comes in

2186
01:51:20,360 --> 01:51:23,439
Speaker 1: the beginning of movement. And I think, I don't think

2187
01:51:23,520 --> 01:51:27,240
Speaker 1: there's a way to will that problem away, Like I

2188
01:51:27,280 --> 01:51:29,240
Speaker 1: don't think we can just like think our way out

2189
01:51:29,280 --> 01:51:31,680
Speaker 1: of it, like it's just a problem. But I do

2190
01:51:31,920 --> 01:51:33,920
Speaker 1: think that like one thing that we could take from

2191
01:51:34,000 --> 01:51:36,640
Speaker 1: the experience of occupying the experience the last decade is

2192
01:51:36,680 --> 01:51:39,599
Speaker 1: that like if you do, you know, consider yourself someone

2193
01:51:39,600 --> 01:51:41,280
Speaker 1: who wants to participate in these kind of movements, which

2194
01:51:41,320 --> 01:51:44,360
Speaker 1: is probably why you're listening to this podcast. UM. Right now, UM,

2195
01:51:45,240 --> 01:51:48,920
Speaker 1: don't try and defend, like, don't try and defend Like

2196
01:51:49,320 --> 01:51:52,439
Speaker 1: some things will need to be defended sometimes obviously, but

2197
01:51:52,560 --> 01:51:55,120
Speaker 1: like if your main thing is like the thing, we

2198
01:51:55,240 --> 01:51:59,200
Speaker 1: should never defend something we've achieved so far, UM, we

2199
01:51:59,240 --> 01:52:01,360
Speaker 1: should never not be willing to destroy it in order

2200
01:52:01,439 --> 01:52:04,200
Speaker 1: to like build something bigger. Right, Like we should never

2201
01:52:04,680 --> 01:52:07,960
Speaker 1: no movement thing that we have, be it an occupy part,

2202
01:52:08,040 --> 01:52:11,160
Speaker 1: be it, be it like a take in space. Defending

2203
01:52:11,240 --> 01:52:15,800
Speaker 1: that should never outweigh the possibility of expanding. And if

2204
01:52:15,840 --> 01:52:18,639
Speaker 1: that's our strategic mindset. Obviously moment to moment you can't

2205
01:52:18,640 --> 01:52:21,320
Speaker 1: just be thinking that constantly. But the strategic mindset is

2206
01:52:21,800 --> 01:52:25,720
Speaker 1: like what we have now is only good to the

2207
01:52:25,800 --> 01:52:29,040
Speaker 1: extent that it can turn into something more, UM, rather

2208
01:52:29,160 --> 01:52:31,720
Speaker 1: than we have to defend what we have now. If

2209
01:52:31,760 --> 01:52:34,080
Speaker 1: you can think that way, I think it opens up

2210
01:52:34,080 --> 01:52:37,360
Speaker 1: a lot of strategic possibilities. UM. And I think it's

2211
01:52:37,400 --> 01:52:39,800
Speaker 1: it's what has worked over the last decade that I've

2212
01:52:39,840 --> 01:52:43,400
Speaker 1: seen is UM, when people attack, when people expand, when

2213
01:52:43,439 --> 01:52:45,320
Speaker 1: people try to do try to do new stuff. It

2214
01:52:45,400 --> 01:52:50,360
Speaker 1: doesn't always work and it doesn't always hold, but that's

2215
01:52:50,439 --> 01:52:52,639
Speaker 1: what When that stuff stops happening, the movement is doomed.

2216
01:52:53,200 --> 01:52:54,559
Speaker 1: I think I think that. I think that's a really

2217
01:52:54,600 --> 01:52:57,800
Speaker 1: good way to wrap things up. I think that's a nice,

2218
01:52:58,000 --> 01:53:00,559
Speaker 1: beautiful sentiment. I kind of view this type of thing

2219
01:53:01,200 --> 01:53:03,519
Speaker 1: in more than just protests and you know, and into

2220
01:53:03,720 --> 01:53:06,320
Speaker 1: differentastets of life. I think you can always learn from

2221
01:53:06,360 --> 01:53:09,360
Speaker 1: past experiences, from past struggles, but if you try to

2222
01:53:09,439 --> 01:53:13,400
Speaker 1: perfectly replicate them, you're absolutely gonna fail. You can should

2223
01:53:13,400 --> 01:53:15,240
Speaker 1: always learn and move on, but you should not be

2224
01:53:15,360 --> 01:53:18,680
Speaker 1: focused on any kind of replication. Is there any of

2225
01:53:19,320 --> 01:53:21,840
Speaker 1: your book store writings you'd want to plug before we

2226
01:53:21,960 --> 01:53:25,000
Speaker 1: wrap up here? Sure? Yeah, I mean I wrote a

2227
01:53:25,040 --> 01:53:27,960
Speaker 1: book that came out last year, UM called Defensive Looting.

2228
01:53:28,240 --> 01:53:32,760
Speaker 1: UM came out UM with both type UM. I am

2229
01:53:33,000 --> 01:53:36,840
Speaker 1: currently also writing. UM. I'm obsessed with movies. I write

2230
01:53:36,840 --> 01:53:40,320
Speaker 1: a movie review UM column for the Al Jazeera plus

2231
01:53:40,560 --> 01:53:43,360
Speaker 1: UM I did not know letters. Yeah, the news letter

2232
01:53:43,400 --> 01:53:45,760
Speaker 1: sub stack UM. If you want to read, I mean,

2233
01:53:45,840 --> 01:53:47,680
Speaker 1: it's really it is really a movie reviews. So if

2234
01:53:47,720 --> 01:53:49,600
Speaker 1: you want you know, cranky anarchist theory, it's not the

2235
01:53:49,640 --> 01:53:52,600
Speaker 1: spot for you. Um. Otherwise, Yeah, I'm I'm on a

2236
01:53:52,720 --> 01:53:55,439
Speaker 1: pretty long social media break right now, but good for

2237
01:53:55,560 --> 01:54:01,559
Speaker 1: you there. Eventually I'll probably come back inevitably, um unfortunately. Yeah,

2238
01:54:02,360 --> 01:54:04,680
Speaker 1: you know, I just have I have writing popping up

2239
01:54:04,720 --> 01:54:07,960
Speaker 1: every every now and then, and um, and if you

2240
01:54:08,040 --> 01:54:11,679
Speaker 1: read it, I would appreciate it. Well. Yeah, absolutely wonderful.

2241
01:54:11,760 --> 01:54:13,760
Speaker 1: Thank you, and yeah, thank you for so much for

2242
01:54:13,880 --> 01:54:19,560
Speaker 1: coming on to talk about, um, occupying stuff that I

2243
01:54:19,640 --> 01:54:22,040
Speaker 1: think a lot of people hear about, but you know,

2244
01:54:22,160 --> 01:54:25,559
Speaker 1: at least all of my generation does not fully kind

2245
01:54:25,600 --> 01:54:30,160
Speaker 1: of grasp it. Um. It is. It is literally my pleasure.

2246
01:54:30,320 --> 01:54:33,400
Speaker 1: Like I you know, i wasted so much of my

2247
01:54:33,480 --> 01:54:35,280
Speaker 1: life thinking about this. I'm so glad to be able

2248
01:54:35,320 --> 01:54:38,920
Speaker 1: to share some of it with some people. I'm so

2249
01:54:39,240 --> 01:54:40,960
Speaker 1: so glad you're able to join us too. This is

2250
01:54:41,360 --> 01:54:44,440
Speaker 1: I've been looking forward to us for a while. Yeah,

2251
01:54:44,480 --> 01:54:48,800
Speaker 1: that's very excited. All right. That wraps up us today.

2252
01:54:48,920 --> 01:54:51,360
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter and Instagram, at cool

2253
01:54:51,480 --> 01:54:54,480
Speaker 1: Zone Media and Happen Here Pod. We'll be back in

2254
01:54:55,040 --> 01:55:08,520
Speaker 1: for a few more episodes. This week. Audios executive producer

2255
01:55:08,640 --> 01:55:12,480
Speaker 1: Harris Hilton brings back the hit podcast How Men Think

2256
01:55:12,960 --> 01:55:16,200
Speaker 1: and That's good news for anyone that is confused by men,

2257
01:55:16,600 --> 01:55:19,920
Speaker 1: which is basically everyone, get an inside look at what

2258
01:55:20,120 --> 01:55:23,040
Speaker 1: goes on in the mind of men from the men themselves.

2259
01:55:23,360 --> 01:55:26,880
Speaker 1: It's real talk, straight from the source. How Men Think

2260
01:55:26,960 --> 01:55:29,560
Speaker 1: podcast is exactly what we need to figure them out.

2261
01:55:29,920 --> 01:55:32,720
Speaker 1: It's going to be fun and formative and probably a

2262
01:55:32,880 --> 01:55:36,160
Speaker 1: bit scary at times because we're literally going inside the

2263
01:55:36,280 --> 01:55:38,880
Speaker 1: minds of men. As much as we like to think

2264
01:55:39,040 --> 01:55:43,240
Speaker 1: all men are the same, they're actually very different. Each week,

2265
01:55:43,400 --> 01:55:46,920
Speaker 1: a celebrity guest host provides honest advice in his area

2266
01:55:47,040 --> 01:55:49,840
Speaker 1: of expertise. When I agreed to do this reboot, I

2267
01:55:49,920 --> 01:55:54,240
Speaker 1: had a few conditions. No sugarcoating, no mind games, and

2268
01:55:54,360 --> 01:55:58,600
Speaker 1: absolutely no man splaining. Men are hard enough to understand

2269
01:55:58,680 --> 01:56:01,640
Speaker 1: without the mind games. Listen to How Men Think on

2270
01:56:01,720 --> 01:56:04,920
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

2271
01:56:05,000 --> 01:56:10,320
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. I'm Jake Halbern, host of Deep Cover.

2272
01:56:10,680 --> 01:56:13,080
Speaker 1: Our new season is about a lawyer who helped the

2273
01:56:13,160 --> 01:56:18,080
Speaker 1: mob run Chicago. We controlled the courts, we controlled absolutely everything.

2274
01:56:18,960 --> 01:56:22,080
Speaker 1: He brobed judges and even helped a hit man walk free,

2275
01:56:22,680 --> 01:56:25,400
Speaker 1: until one day when he started talking with the FBI

2276
01:56:25,920 --> 01:56:29,240
Speaker 1: and promised that he could take the mob down. I've

2277
01:56:29,280 --> 01:56:31,320
Speaker 1: spent the past year trying to figure out why he

2278
01:56:31,400 --> 01:56:34,600
Speaker 1: flipped and what he was really after. From my perspective,

2279
01:56:34,800 --> 01:56:36,880
Speaker 1: Bob was too good to be true. There's got to

2280
01:56:36,920 --> 01:56:39,600
Speaker 1: be something wrong with this. I wouldn't trust that guy.

2281
01:56:39,960 --> 01:56:42,880
Speaker 1: He looks like a little scum, big lawyer, stool pidging.

2282
01:56:42,960 --> 01:56:45,200
Speaker 1: He looked like what he was or at. I can

2283
01:56:45,240 --> 01:56:47,800
Speaker 1: say with all certainty I think he's a hero because

2284
01:56:47,880 --> 01:56:49,360
Speaker 1: he didn't have to do what he did, and he

2285
01:56:49,440 --> 01:56:51,880
Speaker 1: did it anyway. The moment I put the wire around

2286
01:56:51,920 --> 01:56:55,080
Speaker 1: the first time, my life was over. If it ever

2287
01:56:55,200 --> 01:56:58,480
Speaker 1: got out, they would kill me in a heartbeat. Listen

2288
01:56:58,560 --> 01:57:00,440
Speaker 1: to deep Cover on the I heart Rate your app,

2289
01:57:00,480 --> 01:57:07,600
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Ev Rodsky,

2290
01:57:07,720 --> 01:57:10,080
Speaker 1: author of the New York Times bestseller fair Play and

2291
01:57:10,200 --> 01:57:13,720
Speaker 1: Find Your Unicorn Space, activists on the gender division of labor,

2292
01:57:13,920 --> 01:57:17,800
Speaker 1: attorney and family mediator. And I'm Dr Addina Rukar, a

2293
01:57:17,880 --> 01:57:20,960
Speaker 1: Harvard physician and medical correspondent with an expertise and the

2294
01:57:21,000 --> 01:57:24,720
Speaker 1: science of stress, resilience, mental health, and burnout. We're so

2295
01:57:24,920 --> 01:57:28,040
Speaker 1: excited to share our podcast Time Out, a production of

2296
01:57:28,120 --> 01:57:32,560
Speaker 1: I heart Podcasts and Hello Sunshine, we're uncovering why society

2297
01:57:32,640 --> 01:57:34,880
Speaker 1: makes it so hard for women to treat their time

2298
01:57:34,920 --> 01:57:37,680
Speaker 1: with the value it deserves. So take this time out

2299
01:57:37,800 --> 01:57:41,320
Speaker 1: with us. Listen to Time Out a fair play podcast

2300
01:57:41,600 --> 01:57:44,839
Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever

2301
01:57:45,040 --> 01:57:57,760
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Uh, that was the introduction, I

2302
01:57:57,840 --> 01:58:02,440
Speaker 1: did it, Sophie. Sophie's saying, that's an acceptable introduction. You

2303
01:58:02,520 --> 01:58:04,680
Speaker 1: know what podcast this is. You clicked on it, so

2304
01:58:04,720 --> 01:58:06,160
Speaker 1: I don't need to tell you the title. I don't

2305
01:58:06,200 --> 01:58:07,520
Speaker 1: need to say who we are. I'm just going to

2306
01:58:07,640 --> 01:58:11,320
Speaker 1: dive right into the fucking episode. No I'm not. This

2307
01:58:11,480 --> 01:58:14,840
Speaker 1: is It Could Happen Here, a podcast about things falling

2308
01:58:14,880 --> 01:58:17,240
Speaker 1: apart and uh and what to maybe do to to

2309
01:58:17,600 --> 01:58:20,880
Speaker 1: arrest that and do something better in its place? And uh.

2310
01:58:21,600 --> 01:58:24,120
Speaker 1: You know, folks who are are regular listeners who listened

2311
01:58:24,120 --> 01:58:27,320
Speaker 1: to the original scripted episodes of It Could Happen Here,

2312
01:58:27,400 --> 01:58:30,400
Speaker 1: the first fifteen episodes, which I certainly recommend to everybody.

2313
01:58:30,840 --> 01:58:34,160
Speaker 1: Know that one area in which I kind of separate

2314
01:58:34,320 --> 01:58:38,040
Speaker 1: from a lot of particularly more liberal folks and even

2315
01:58:38,120 --> 01:58:40,480
Speaker 1: some folks on the left, is an embrace of the

2316
01:58:40,680 --> 01:58:44,880
Speaker 1: fact that firearms are sometimes necessary tools, especially in times

2317
01:58:44,920 --> 01:58:48,040
Speaker 1: of collapse when things get bad. Um. Now that said,

2318
01:58:48,120 --> 01:58:52,840
Speaker 1: we're also not uh kind of gun culture people here.

2319
01:58:53,080 --> 01:58:55,800
Speaker 1: We try not, to, for one thing, recommend that everybody

2320
01:58:56,200 --> 01:58:58,120
Speaker 1: necessarily pick up a gun. There's a lot of people,

2321
01:58:58,560 --> 01:59:01,400
Speaker 1: perfectly nice people who shouldn't have them, who don't need

2322
01:59:01,480 --> 01:59:03,480
Speaker 1: to have them, you know, if you're dealing with suicidal

2323
01:59:03,520 --> 01:59:05,440
Speaker 1: ideation or whatever. We're not. The point is, we try

2324
01:59:05,480 --> 01:59:08,360
Speaker 1: to be very careful about how we we talk about

2325
01:59:08,440 --> 01:59:13,000
Speaker 1: firearms as a potentially useful you're being potentially necessary tool

2326
01:59:13,120 --> 01:59:15,800
Speaker 1: in the times that we're in. And today, since we're

2327
01:59:15,800 --> 01:59:18,800
Speaker 1: a few weeks into this, we've covered producing food, We've

2328
01:59:18,880 --> 01:59:23,000
Speaker 1: covered some medical stuff. We've talked about uh, community organizing,

2329
01:59:23,040 --> 01:59:24,800
Speaker 1: and a number of other things that I think our

2330
01:59:24,880 --> 01:59:29,240
Speaker 1: priorities for most people before you know, getting strapped. Today,

2331
01:59:29,280 --> 01:59:31,520
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk a little bit about getting strapped. And

2332
01:59:31,600 --> 01:59:34,040
Speaker 1: my guest today is Paul. Paul, do you want to

2333
01:59:34,120 --> 01:59:36,400
Speaker 1: kind of introduce your background in brief so people know

2334
01:59:36,560 --> 01:59:40,760
Speaker 1: why why you're on here. Sure, Robert Uh I was

2335
01:59:40,800 --> 01:59:44,720
Speaker 1: in the Marine Corps and Infantry, and after that I

2336
01:59:44,800 --> 01:59:49,000
Speaker 1: went to security consulting and then to the Federal Protective

2337
01:59:49,080 --> 01:59:53,360
Speaker 1: Service and finally the A. T. F some of our

2338
01:59:53,400 --> 01:59:58,960
Speaker 1: funnest agencies. Yeah, all my favorite organizations there. Well they're

2339
01:59:59,000 --> 02:00:01,680
Speaker 1: bet in the what is it, the f d A. Yeah,

2340
02:00:01,800 --> 02:00:03,800
Speaker 1: they beat the f d A. I mean in terms

2341
02:00:03,840 --> 02:00:05,880
Speaker 1: of body count, they'res certainly better than the f d A.

2342
02:00:09,120 --> 02:00:11,240
Speaker 1: And what what do you do now, Paul that you're

2343
02:00:11,520 --> 02:00:14,440
Speaker 1: you're you're out of that line of work. Uh, well,

2344
02:00:14,480 --> 02:00:16,400
Speaker 1: I do two things. I got a day job at

2345
02:00:16,480 --> 02:00:21,480
Speaker 1: disney World, and then the side gig is we run

2346
02:00:21,720 --> 02:00:27,040
Speaker 1: a explosives and machine guns supply company, also body armor,

2347
02:00:27,600 --> 02:00:30,960
Speaker 1: a handful of other things, but that's the big thing

2348
02:00:31,080 --> 02:00:35,960
Speaker 1: is destructive devices. Yeah, and uh, you've you've got I

2349
02:00:36,040 --> 02:00:38,560
Speaker 1: think experience that a lot of people, particularly on this

2350
02:00:38,640 --> 02:00:40,760
Speaker 1: side of the political i'll lack you know. One of

2351
02:00:40,840 --> 02:00:44,360
Speaker 1: the one of the downsides of kind of rejecting the

2352
02:00:44,600 --> 02:00:47,400
Speaker 1: federal government in the military and all its forms, is

2353
02:00:47,440 --> 02:00:49,680
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of people who may accept the

2354
02:00:49,760 --> 02:00:52,400
Speaker 1: validity of being armed and don't really have much in

2355
02:00:52,440 --> 02:00:55,800
Speaker 1: the way of practical training. And firearms are tools that

2356
02:00:55,960 --> 02:00:59,200
Speaker 1: to use most efficausly do require training. In practice, you

2357
02:00:59,280 --> 02:01:02,240
Speaker 1: can't just you can pick them up and be dangerous,

2358
02:01:02,320 --> 02:01:04,600
Speaker 1: but not in a way that is particularly protective. To

2359
02:01:04,680 --> 02:01:09,720
Speaker 1: you in your community. Oh yeah, UM, so I wanted

2360
02:01:09,760 --> 02:01:12,880
Speaker 1: to talk about kind of recommendations and and everything. We

2361
02:01:13,000 --> 02:01:15,520
Speaker 1: talk about nothing. We're not talking in the context of

2362
02:01:15,560 --> 02:01:18,720
Speaker 1: forming a militia or in the context of you know,

2363
02:01:19,000 --> 02:01:22,160
Speaker 1: showing up with guns to to yell at people at

2364
02:01:22,160 --> 02:01:24,160
Speaker 1: a protest. If that's the thing you're choosing to do,

2365
02:01:24,640 --> 02:01:26,960
Speaker 1: that's a whole different ball game. We're talking about, um,

2366
02:01:27,720 --> 02:01:31,520
Speaker 1: kind of responsibly arming yourself and your community in a

2367
02:01:31,640 --> 02:01:34,440
Speaker 1: way that is not going to get you in legal trouble. Um.

2368
02:01:34,640 --> 02:01:36,760
Speaker 1: It is also not going to endanger them. Because one

2369
02:01:36,760 --> 02:01:39,160
Speaker 1: of the things you have to accept about firearms is that, um,

2370
02:01:39,840 --> 02:01:43,440
Speaker 1: there's a risk you know, related to owning a firearm. Um.

2371
02:01:43,680 --> 02:01:46,640
Speaker 1: Not just the risk that like you know, suicide risk

2372
02:01:46,800 --> 02:01:48,280
Speaker 1: raises if you have a gun in the house, but

2373
02:01:48,400 --> 02:01:51,200
Speaker 1: just um, if you don't use them properly. Even carrying

2374
02:01:51,240 --> 02:01:54,720
Speaker 1: a gun. You know, it's not unheard of for people

2375
02:01:54,800 --> 02:01:57,000
Speaker 1: carrying guns to have those weapons taken from them and

2376
02:01:57,080 --> 02:01:59,440
Speaker 1: used against them. It happens to police, and it happens

2377
02:01:59,480 --> 02:02:02,880
Speaker 1: to armed citizens. So it's it's a matter of um,

2378
02:02:03,800 --> 02:02:06,520
Speaker 1: you know, I think when you accept that you're going

2379
02:02:06,640 --> 02:02:10,360
Speaker 1: to be armed, there's something incumbent upon you to understand

2380
02:02:10,440 --> 02:02:12,320
Speaker 1: the risks of being armed. And I guess that's kind

2381
02:02:12,320 --> 02:02:13,760
Speaker 1: of where I want to start. Like, what are some

2382
02:02:13,800 --> 02:02:17,080
Speaker 1: of the big pitfalls you see people uh fall into, like,

2383
02:02:17,920 --> 02:02:21,920
Speaker 1: um that I think traditionally training is supposed to help

2384
02:02:21,960 --> 02:02:26,720
Speaker 1: allay to some degree. Uh. Well, probably number one is

2385
02:02:27,000 --> 02:02:29,760
Speaker 1: uh grandpa's gun in the closet that's been there for

2386
02:02:30,080 --> 02:02:32,920
Speaker 1: forty years unfired, and somebody just picks it up and

2387
02:02:33,960 --> 02:02:36,600
Speaker 1: throw some ammo in it to go huna deer, and

2388
02:02:37,640 --> 02:02:39,520
Speaker 1: you know it's got a barrel obstruction or something just

2389
02:02:39,560 --> 02:02:43,760
Speaker 1: blows up, you know. Um. But number two and and

2390
02:02:44,600 --> 02:02:47,520
Speaker 1: the one that can be mitigated by training rather than

2391
02:02:47,640 --> 02:02:52,080
Speaker 1: just general uh not being stupid, because it's kind of

2392
02:02:52,080 --> 02:02:53,880
Speaker 1: stupid to pick something up that's really old and just

2393
02:02:53,960 --> 02:02:58,560
Speaker 1: try to shoot it. Is um, not shooting yourself, and

2394
02:02:58,920 --> 02:03:01,360
Speaker 1: when you do go out to the range, not shooting

2395
02:03:01,400 --> 02:03:04,640
Speaker 1: other people, and then not shooting people in your own home.

2396
02:03:05,280 --> 02:03:10,840
Speaker 1: M you know, you don't, as much as you might

2397
02:03:10,880 --> 02:03:13,640
Speaker 1: want to say, defend your own home, do you want

2398
02:03:13,680 --> 02:03:16,960
Speaker 1: to shoot your wife when she comes home at two

2399
02:03:17,080 --> 02:03:20,680
Speaker 1: thirty in the morning, uh, after work and wakes you up.

2400
02:03:22,200 --> 02:03:24,480
Speaker 1: And there are ways to mitigate that, and and it's

2401
02:03:24,560 --> 02:03:28,240
Speaker 1: really easy and it's really cheap. So yeah, let's let's

2402
02:03:28,360 --> 02:03:30,560
Speaker 1: let's start with some of those just if you're if

2403
02:03:30,640 --> 02:03:32,720
Speaker 1: you're new too, if you've decided I need a gun

2404
02:03:32,840 --> 02:03:36,240
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, you purchase a gun. Um, you know,

2405
02:03:36,480 --> 02:03:39,320
Speaker 1: I think the most basic first things are in terms

2406
02:03:39,360 --> 02:03:42,120
Speaker 1: of like actually making that relatively safe. Is number one,

2407
02:03:42,160 --> 02:03:45,560
Speaker 1: knowing which which kind of firearm to purchase and number two,

2408
02:03:46,080 --> 02:03:47,840
Speaker 1: And these are not in order of importance, these are

2409
02:03:47,880 --> 02:03:51,200
Speaker 1: both very important. Number two is securing that weapon properly,

2410
02:03:51,280 --> 02:03:54,480
Speaker 1: as opposed to just having it laying loose in the house,

2411
02:03:54,840 --> 02:03:57,000
Speaker 1: which is never the best place. The best way to

2412
02:03:57,040 --> 02:04:03,320
Speaker 1: store a firearm, is it. Um? Yeah, I mean I

2413
02:04:03,800 --> 02:04:07,560
Speaker 1: own a number of personal firearms. Um. You know, I'm

2414
02:04:07,600 --> 02:04:10,320
Speaker 1: in my office right now where I got a locked

2415
02:04:10,360 --> 02:04:12,000
Speaker 1: door nobody can get in, and I got a gun

2416
02:04:12,080 --> 02:04:17,360
Speaker 1: safe back behind the monitors. Um. And you know I'm

2417
02:04:17,400 --> 02:04:20,480
Speaker 1: comfortable with that. But if if it was in a

2418
02:04:20,520 --> 02:04:22,360
Speaker 1: place where kids could get at it, you don't want

2419
02:04:22,360 --> 02:04:24,960
Speaker 1: to just stuff it in, uh, in a sock in

2420
02:04:25,080 --> 02:04:27,280
Speaker 1: the closet, which is actually what my mom did when

2421
02:04:27,320 --> 02:04:31,120
Speaker 1: I was a kid. Yeah, I mean safe storage, and

2422
02:04:31,240 --> 02:04:34,520
Speaker 1: I mean really being able to identify your target is

2423
02:04:34,600 --> 02:04:39,360
Speaker 1: probably the biggest preventer of like inter family accident because

2424
02:04:39,400 --> 02:04:41,200
Speaker 1: I know, you know, we do talk about safe storage,

2425
02:04:41,320 --> 02:04:44,960
Speaker 1: kids and all that, but um, back to the wife

2426
02:04:45,080 --> 02:04:47,840
Speaker 1: coming home, if you just put a light on your gun,

2427
02:04:48,640 --> 02:04:51,520
Speaker 1: a hundred dollar light, you can look at the thing

2428
02:04:51,600 --> 02:04:54,360
Speaker 1: that you're shooting in the middle of the night and uh,

2429
02:04:54,640 --> 02:04:57,360
Speaker 1: not shoot someone you don't want to shoot. Yeah. I

2430
02:04:57,400 --> 02:04:59,200
Speaker 1: would go so far as to say that, like, if

2431
02:04:59,240 --> 02:05:02,080
Speaker 1: you've got a a home defense weapon without a light

2432
02:05:02,200 --> 02:05:06,280
Speaker 1: on it, Um, you don't fully have a home defense weapon. No, no, yeah,

2433
02:05:07,120 --> 02:05:11,920
Speaker 1: you know, Um, it's gonna be useless in roughly half

2434
02:05:12,000 --> 02:05:14,640
Speaker 1: of the situation. And statistically, like if you're looking at

2435
02:05:14,680 --> 02:05:16,720
Speaker 1: when people are actually tend to be endangered in their

2436
02:05:16,760 --> 02:05:19,320
Speaker 1: own homes, the vast majority of the situations in which

2437
02:05:19,320 --> 02:05:22,680
Speaker 1: you might be in danger. Um. When it comes to

2438
02:05:22,800 --> 02:05:25,960
Speaker 1: weapons selection, uh, this is another area where like if

2439
02:05:26,000 --> 02:05:27,960
Speaker 1: you go on maybe one of the worst places in

2440
02:05:28,000 --> 02:05:30,360
Speaker 1: the world to have this discussion as Twitter, because everybody

2441
02:05:30,440 --> 02:05:34,240
Speaker 1: has the opinions on Twitter. Um, I tend to say

2442
02:05:34,280 --> 02:05:36,760
Speaker 1: because I think most people when they're looking for a

2443
02:05:36,840 --> 02:05:39,160
Speaker 1: first gun, if they're if they're committed, just like thinking

2444
02:05:39,200 --> 02:05:40,920
Speaker 1: of personal defense, they're going to go for like a

2445
02:05:41,000 --> 02:05:43,400
Speaker 1: lock or something. And I think unless you're planning on

2446
02:05:43,520 --> 02:05:45,680
Speaker 1: carrying a gun, and you can correct me if you

2447
02:05:45,720 --> 02:05:48,400
Speaker 1: disagree here, but I tend to think a handgun again,

2448
02:05:48,520 --> 02:05:51,920
Speaker 1: unless you're intending on carrying a concealed weapon, is the

2449
02:05:52,080 --> 02:05:55,160
Speaker 1: last thing that you should own as a gun owner. Um.

2450
02:05:56,920 --> 02:06:00,280
Speaker 1: I got a mixed opinion on that. I mean, yeah,

2451
02:06:00,360 --> 02:06:06,440
Speaker 1: I think that, uh, the handiness of a handgun can

2452
02:06:06,520 --> 02:06:10,320
Speaker 1: outweigh some of the issues. I know you guys dealt

2453
02:06:10,360 --> 02:06:14,920
Speaker 1: with fires up there, we have hurricanes. Um, being able

2454
02:06:15,000 --> 02:06:19,320
Speaker 1: to stick a handgun into a backpack you know it

2455
02:06:19,440 --> 02:06:23,720
Speaker 1: can go a long way, or being ab um, keep

2456
02:06:23,880 --> 02:06:26,960
Speaker 1: keep it on you in your car, because here we're

2457
02:06:27,480 --> 02:06:31,760
Speaker 1: depend on state laws. Everything you say depends on state laws. Yeah,

2458
02:06:31,840 --> 02:06:34,000
Speaker 1: there are states where you can Yeah. Yeah. If you're

2459
02:06:34,040 --> 02:06:36,400
Speaker 1: in California and you're in one of the counties that

2460
02:06:36,640 --> 02:06:40,040
Speaker 1: it doesn't issue a concealed carry of license like l A,

2461
02:06:40,160 --> 02:06:43,600
Speaker 1: it's really hard to get one from what I understand, Berndino,

2462
02:06:43,680 --> 02:06:45,440
Speaker 1: if you want to get one of those, yeah, I mean,

2463
02:06:45,520 --> 02:06:48,360
Speaker 1: first off, like tooth, I got a short list of guns,

2464
02:06:48,400 --> 02:06:50,880
Speaker 1: and like two thirds of the list illegal in California.

2465
02:06:51,320 --> 02:06:55,839
Speaker 1: They're they're not on roster. But for what's most usable

2466
02:06:55,880 --> 02:06:59,920
Speaker 1: against our most handy, it's probably a handgun. But if

2467
02:07:00,080 --> 02:07:05,440
Speaker 1: you're expecting a threat more than uh like thirty feet away,

2468
02:07:06,440 --> 02:07:08,840
Speaker 1: have something other than a handgun. Handguns they suck at

2469
02:07:08,920 --> 02:07:12,520
Speaker 1: hurting people, they suck at killing people. Yeah, they're they're ineffective.

2470
02:07:13,000 --> 02:07:15,800
Speaker 1: They're hard to use. I mean, say thirty feet away.

2471
02:07:15,840 --> 02:07:18,920
Speaker 1: But if you're not training regularly, hitting something reliably in

2472
02:07:18,960 --> 02:07:21,400
Speaker 1: a stressful situation at thirty ft with a handgun can

2473
02:07:21,480 --> 02:07:25,920
Speaker 1: be difficult. It's not easy. Yeah, um, it's not easy,

2474
02:07:25,960 --> 02:07:28,240
Speaker 1: and I tend to recommend number one. There are some options,

2475
02:07:28,280 --> 02:07:30,520
Speaker 1: like even if you're sticking with a handgun, there are

2476
02:07:30,600 --> 02:07:34,120
Speaker 1: different kind of um like uh options for that. Like

2477
02:07:34,200 --> 02:07:37,800
Speaker 1: I I'm a big advocate of pistol caliber carbines, which

2478
02:07:37,840 --> 02:07:41,520
Speaker 1: is essential the size of a small rifle, so you

2479
02:07:41,640 --> 02:07:44,360
Speaker 1: can fit them easily in a backpack. Every backpack I've owned,

2480
02:07:44,440 --> 02:07:46,480
Speaker 1: you can you can stick something like um like a

2481
02:07:46,560 --> 02:07:50,320
Speaker 1: Sazy scorpion in without much difficulty. And because they're so

2482
02:07:50,400 --> 02:07:52,960
Speaker 1: When you're talking about what makes a weapon easier to use,

2483
02:07:53,560 --> 02:07:55,560
Speaker 1: number one of the number one things is size. So

2484
02:07:55,680 --> 02:07:57,920
Speaker 1: the longer the barrel, the more accurate it is. The

2485
02:07:58,000 --> 02:08:00,280
Speaker 1: heavier the gun, the less recoil is a problem, the

2486
02:08:00,320 --> 02:08:02,960
Speaker 1: easier it is to use it. Range um and a

2487
02:08:03,040 --> 02:08:05,800
Speaker 1: pistol caliber carbine. You know you stick a light on that.

2488
02:08:05,960 --> 02:08:10,000
Speaker 1: That's a really good home defense weapon. Oh absolutely, yeah,

2489
02:08:10,040 --> 02:08:13,880
Speaker 1: I mean especially uh, people will argue about the different

2490
02:08:13,920 --> 02:08:16,280
Speaker 1: types of magazines, but if you buy one that takes

2491
02:08:16,560 --> 02:08:20,200
Speaker 1: a glock magazine and you have a glock, you can

2492
02:08:20,320 --> 02:08:23,160
Speaker 1: build a full little load out that's just takes all

2493
02:08:23,200 --> 02:08:27,240
Speaker 1: the same magazines. One is more accurate, one is a

2494
02:08:27,360 --> 02:08:31,760
Speaker 1: handgun UM, and you know, all the same AMMO. You're

2495
02:08:31,800 --> 02:08:35,600
Speaker 1: not having to uh figure out and read a bunch

2496
02:08:35,680 --> 02:08:37,880
Speaker 1: on on what kind of AMMO you need and stuff

2497
02:08:37,920 --> 02:08:40,440
Speaker 1: like that. You just buy one and it works for everything. Yeah,

2498
02:08:40,560 --> 02:08:42,520
Speaker 1: and when when you're talking about AMMO, I think one

2499
02:08:42,560 --> 02:08:45,720
Speaker 1: of the most important things, like especially if you're worried

2500
02:08:45,720 --> 02:08:49,200
Speaker 1: about a survival situation, is is availability um. Which is

2501
02:08:49,240 --> 02:08:51,480
Speaker 1: the nice thing about like what we call the NATO caliber.

2502
02:08:51,560 --> 02:08:54,720
Speaker 1: So the NATO calibers are nine millimeter seven six two

2503
02:08:54,720 --> 02:08:56,920
Speaker 1: by fifty one better known as three O eight your

2504
02:08:56,920 --> 02:08:59,680
Speaker 1: grandpa's hunting rifle, and seven six two by fifty one

2505
02:09:00,280 --> 02:09:02,960
Speaker 1: UM or it's thirty six but whatever, UM and then

2506
02:09:03,280 --> 02:09:05,880
Speaker 1: five five six slash two to three and those are

2507
02:09:05,920 --> 02:09:08,560
Speaker 1: the rounds that's like six is the standard. That's what's

2508
02:09:08,600 --> 02:09:13,000
Speaker 1: in your bog standard a r UM. And so almost

2509
02:09:13,080 --> 02:09:17,160
Speaker 1: no matter what happens, UM, including you know Ammo crunches,

2510
02:09:17,280 --> 02:09:19,720
Speaker 1: you will be able to find some amounts of these

2511
02:09:19,840 --> 02:09:23,120
Speaker 1: fliverers genital day through your neighbors and you're going to

2512
02:09:23,240 --> 02:09:25,400
Speaker 1: find a box of bullets. They might not even owe

2513
02:09:25,440 --> 02:09:27,640
Speaker 1: a gun and they got a boxing nine millimeter. Yeah,

2514
02:09:27,760 --> 02:09:31,440
Speaker 1: everybody's got nine millionaire and UM, so yeah, I think

2515
02:09:31,520 --> 02:09:35,560
Speaker 1: that the basics of like, um, what to get if

2516
02:09:35,600 --> 02:09:38,440
Speaker 1: you're looking at kind of just a basic defensive arm, um,

2517
02:09:38,840 --> 02:09:41,280
Speaker 1: you know how to store it safely? You know those

2518
02:09:41,360 --> 02:09:45,680
Speaker 1: kind of questions are important, Um when it comes to training. Uh,

2519
02:09:46,840 --> 02:09:48,919
Speaker 1: what are some of in your opinion, like the mistakes

2520
02:09:49,000 --> 02:09:51,520
Speaker 1: that you see people make when it comes to kind

2521
02:09:51,560 --> 02:09:55,720
Speaker 1: of of of practicing training with their weapon. Um, going

2522
02:09:55,920 --> 02:09:59,520
Speaker 1: to an n R A basic like four hour class

2523
02:09:59,640 --> 02:10:04,040
Speaker 1: and thin king that you are a god. Um, They're

2524
02:10:04,240 --> 02:10:07,560
Speaker 1: there are people who have spent UM five days a

2525
02:10:07,640 --> 02:10:13,120
Speaker 1: week going to classes and doing training because there's practice

2526
02:10:13,160 --> 02:10:16,640
Speaker 1: and then there's training. Training is where someone teaches you something. Uh,

2527
02:10:16,840 --> 02:10:20,680
Speaker 1: practices where you go with what you're already taught. Right. Um,

2528
02:10:20,920 --> 02:10:22,880
Speaker 1: So there there are people that spend all that time

2529
02:10:23,120 --> 02:10:26,440
Speaker 1: and there's still not the best in the world. Um,

2530
02:10:26,600 --> 02:10:29,360
Speaker 1: there are people who do a ton of practice. Jerry Micklock,

2531
02:10:29,920 --> 02:10:31,760
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if you ever seen him shoot,

2532
02:10:31,840 --> 02:10:35,360
Speaker 1: but he's uh he's like the fastest gun in the

2533
02:10:35,400 --> 02:10:38,839
Speaker 1: world or something like that. Um, his videos are crazy.

2534
02:10:39,040 --> 02:10:41,680
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean he'll he'll outshoot a full

2535
02:10:41,720 --> 02:10:45,160
Speaker 1: auto gun. Yeah, with with revolvers and it's just like,

2536
02:10:46,040 --> 02:10:49,040
Speaker 1: you know, it's just absolutely mind blowing. Um. But now

2537
02:10:49,200 --> 02:10:51,600
Speaker 1: he's like he's like he's like Michael Jordan or something.

2538
02:10:51,640 --> 02:10:54,520
Speaker 1: You know, you just get people who have it's just

2539
02:10:54,840 --> 02:11:00,440
Speaker 1: that natural ability. Um, certainly married with a practicing But yeah, continue,

2540
02:11:01,040 --> 02:11:04,200
Speaker 1: if if you had a fight, a gunfight, which they

2541
02:11:04,280 --> 02:11:05,840
Speaker 1: really don't happen that much, but if you had a

2542
02:11:05,880 --> 02:11:09,760
Speaker 1: gun fight between um, a guy with a high point

2543
02:11:09,920 --> 02:11:17,040
Speaker 1: C nine who had the cheapest quote reliable handguns on

2544
02:11:17,080 --> 02:11:19,480
Speaker 1: the face there, if you had a guy with that

2545
02:11:19,640 --> 02:11:22,240
Speaker 1: that had had paid five hundred dollars for a training

2546
02:11:22,280 --> 02:11:25,160
Speaker 1: class over weekend and still went in Uh, went to

2547
02:11:25,200 --> 02:11:28,600
Speaker 1: the shooting range every week and practiced and um, or

2548
02:11:28,640 --> 02:11:30,440
Speaker 1: not even every week, just every month, and then did

2549
02:11:30,520 --> 02:11:33,400
Speaker 1: dry fire drills once a month in his garage or whatever.

2550
02:11:34,200 --> 02:11:37,720
Speaker 1: Versus a guy who went out and bought a Wilson

2551
02:11:37,880 --> 02:11:42,080
Speaker 1: Combat three thousand dollar nineteen eleven but had only taken

2552
02:11:42,120 --> 02:11:44,080
Speaker 1: the n R A class. I will bet on the

2553
02:11:44,120 --> 02:11:48,280
Speaker 1: guy with the eight or the C nine all day long. Um,

2554
02:11:48,640 --> 02:11:51,680
Speaker 1: even if he's only got one bullet, you know, yeah,

2555
02:11:51,880 --> 02:11:55,320
Speaker 1: don't don't care, He'll win. And often, like for all

2556
02:11:55,360 --> 02:11:57,160
Speaker 1: of it, for all of the guys you see, you know,

2557
02:11:57,440 --> 02:11:59,800
Speaker 1: in all of their tactical gear and whatnot in the

2558
02:12:00,040 --> 02:12:03,320
Speaker 1: spare mag's taking a three hundred rounds out. If you

2559
02:12:03,400 --> 02:12:07,320
Speaker 1: actually look at most defensive shootings, UM, it's very common.

2560
02:12:07,400 --> 02:12:10,800
Speaker 1: And I think, like like three to five rounds, three

2561
02:12:10,840 --> 02:12:13,880
Speaker 1: to five rounds generally closer than thirty feet, sometimes closer

2562
02:12:13,920 --> 02:12:17,520
Speaker 1: than like ten or fifteen sits in my pocket most

2563
02:12:17,560 --> 02:12:24,320
Speaker 1: of the time. It's nineteen so tiny. Um, it has

2564
02:12:24,400 --> 02:12:27,480
Speaker 1: more bullets than I'll ever need to gunfight. Probably. I

2565
02:12:27,600 --> 02:12:29,760
Speaker 1: think I want to pivot from this point to UM.

2566
02:12:30,400 --> 02:12:33,800
Speaker 1: We started this by it introducing that you you spent

2567
02:12:33,920 --> 02:12:36,160
Speaker 1: some time in the A t F spent some time

2568
02:12:36,200 --> 02:12:39,320
Speaker 1: in the FPS. I haven't had any personal interactions with

2569
02:12:39,360 --> 02:12:41,120
Speaker 1: the A t F, but I have met some FPS

2570
02:12:41,160 --> 02:12:46,200
Speaker 1: guys support. You know, I'm kind of curious, especially as

2571
02:12:46,240 --> 02:12:48,840
Speaker 1: because I came in contact with you through your through

2572
02:12:48,880 --> 02:12:53,320
Speaker 1: your Twitter, where you're you're very my personal Twitter. Yeah,

2573
02:12:53,600 --> 02:12:56,320
Speaker 1: and you're you're quite politically active now, um in a

2574
02:12:56,360 --> 02:12:58,560
Speaker 1: way that I think is surprising people for someone with

2575
02:12:58,640 --> 02:13:01,080
Speaker 1: your background. Are you in protable with kind of tracing

2576
02:13:01,640 --> 02:13:03,680
Speaker 1: sort of the broad strokes of your journey there, because

2577
02:13:03,680 --> 02:13:09,320
Speaker 1: I think that's instructive um for folks oh at FPS specifically, Well,

2578
02:13:09,440 --> 02:13:13,080
Speaker 1: just kind of what brought you from there to hear? Oh? Um?

2579
02:13:13,800 --> 02:13:18,480
Speaker 1: So I got kind of uh, oh man, what what's

2580
02:13:18,560 --> 02:13:21,440
Speaker 1: what's the word for when you just get uh? I

2581
02:13:21,520 --> 02:13:23,680
Speaker 1: don't know. I just I got to a point. I

2582
02:13:23,800 --> 02:13:27,120
Speaker 1: showed up for for work at four thirty in the

2583
02:13:27,200 --> 02:13:32,960
Speaker 1: morning and I was literally shuffling through some some paperwork

2584
02:13:33,800 --> 02:13:36,920
Speaker 1: and and was getting ready to file a warrant and

2585
02:13:37,000 --> 02:13:40,440
Speaker 1: just kind of realized, I I didn't think that it

2586
02:13:40,560 --> 02:13:44,400
Speaker 1: needed to happen, And you know, I talked to my

2587
02:13:44,720 --> 02:13:48,800
Speaker 1: supervising agent about it, and UM was kind of told

2588
02:13:48,960 --> 02:13:52,120
Speaker 1: too bad. And and I put in for some vacation

2589
02:13:52,240 --> 02:13:55,560
Speaker 1: time and ended up putting in my resignation while I

2590
02:13:55,600 --> 02:13:58,120
Speaker 1: was on vacation. I mean that that's the gist of

2591
02:13:58,160 --> 02:14:03,960
Speaker 1: how I became not a cop. Yeah, And um, I'm wondering,

2592
02:14:04,040 --> 02:14:08,360
Speaker 1: kind of what do you think? Is there anything that

2593
02:14:08,480 --> 02:14:10,840
Speaker 1: kind of I don't know, what looks different to you

2594
02:14:11,000 --> 02:14:13,280
Speaker 1: now as you've kind of left that behind? Was it

2595
02:14:13,400 --> 02:14:16,960
Speaker 1: like sort of, Um, I'm guessing there's like a period

2596
02:14:17,040 --> 02:14:19,160
Speaker 1: like a goldfish, you know, in a new bowl of

2597
02:14:19,400 --> 02:14:24,440
Speaker 1: of acclamation to to life outside of being a cop. Um? Like,

2598
02:14:24,640 --> 02:14:26,520
Speaker 1: what what were the first kind of things that started

2599
02:14:26,560 --> 02:14:28,880
Speaker 1: to shift in your perspective when you left that that

2600
02:14:29,040 --> 02:14:35,280
Speaker 1: thought space. I'll tell you what, watching or reading whatever,

2601
02:14:35,400 --> 02:14:38,120
Speaker 1: an article or a YouTube video, especially now that body

2602
02:14:38,200 --> 02:14:44,839
Speaker 1: cams are more and more prevalent, is watching something, reading

2603
02:14:45,160 --> 02:14:49,880
Speaker 1: the the press release and going But that's that's not

2604
02:14:50,000 --> 02:14:52,800
Speaker 1: what happened. Like I just watched it and and and

2605
02:14:52,960 --> 02:14:55,760
Speaker 1: going from being able to justify it in your own

2606
02:14:55,800 --> 02:14:59,240
Speaker 1: mind and literally argue with people and be a hundred

2607
02:14:59,320 --> 02:15:04,320
Speaker 1: percent convey like that was a good shoot. Um. Castillo?

2608
02:15:04,520 --> 02:15:08,200
Speaker 1: What it was a Philandro Castillo? Yeah, oh god? And

2609
02:15:08,280 --> 02:15:11,640
Speaker 1: he was man if you've if you've gotten lost track

2610
02:15:11,720 --> 02:15:15,160
Speaker 1: of this shooting in between all the others. Filando was

2611
02:15:15,320 --> 02:15:18,040
Speaker 1: a black man, a legal gun owner with a legal

2612
02:15:18,120 --> 02:15:20,800
Speaker 1: concealed carry permit, who was pulled over with his girlfriend

2613
02:15:20,840 --> 02:15:24,040
Speaker 1: and child in a car and hands on the wheel,

2614
02:15:24,120 --> 02:15:28,000
Speaker 1: told the officer he had a gun, uh, and got shot. Um,

2615
02:15:28,760 --> 02:15:30,560
Speaker 1: you know, and it did the thing you're supposed to do.

2616
02:15:30,680 --> 02:15:33,560
Speaker 1: Although now actually since then, you will get like some

2617
02:15:33,720 --> 02:15:36,520
Speaker 1: states will and some training classes will recommend if it's

2618
02:15:36,520 --> 02:15:38,960
Speaker 1: not legally required and you're carrying a gun, don't say

2619
02:15:38,960 --> 02:15:44,120
Speaker 1: anything for that reason. But I mean, yeah, the command

2620
02:15:44,320 --> 02:15:48,240
Speaker 1: to not reach for the gun to being shot multiple

2621
02:15:48,320 --> 02:15:51,800
Speaker 1: times in the chest was like under two seconds. Um,

2622
02:15:52,440 --> 02:15:54,280
Speaker 1: So I mean, I mean the decision was already made

2623
02:15:54,320 --> 02:15:55,960
Speaker 1: as soon as as soon as he gave the command,

2624
02:15:56,000 --> 02:16:00,360
Speaker 1: the decision was made. Here's what that brings me too,

2625
02:16:00,480 --> 02:16:02,520
Speaker 1: in terms of a question that's relevant to the topic

2626
02:16:02,640 --> 02:16:06,920
Speaker 1: of community self defensive potential community armed self defense, because

2627
02:16:07,000 --> 02:16:09,240
Speaker 1: that's not that is a that is a cop problem,

2628
02:16:09,280 --> 02:16:11,200
Speaker 1: but that's not just a cop problem. And what happened

2629
02:16:11,280 --> 02:16:14,600
Speaker 1: everybody problem in the chop in the chairs in Seattle,

2630
02:16:14,760 --> 02:16:16,920
Speaker 1: the the autonomous zone is evidence of that. You had

2631
02:16:17,000 --> 02:16:21,120
Speaker 1: this situation where people, after nights and nights of mostly

2632
02:16:21,240 --> 02:16:24,680
Speaker 1: inaccurate warnings about proud boys coming to attack, got amped up.

2633
02:16:25,080 --> 02:16:27,920
Speaker 1: They had guns, some kids drove by in a car

2634
02:16:28,000 --> 02:16:29,880
Speaker 1: and they fucking shot him to death. Um. And it

2635
02:16:30,040 --> 02:16:33,000
Speaker 1: is the same, it's the same mental thing happening. You

2636
02:16:33,040 --> 02:16:35,720
Speaker 1: don't have to have a badge for that that mindset

2637
02:16:35,959 --> 02:16:40,240
Speaker 1: to infect, especially when you're carrying a gun. Um, how

2638
02:16:40,320 --> 02:16:46,520
Speaker 1: do you, in your opinion, fight back against that chill? Uh?

2639
02:16:46,720 --> 02:16:55,439
Speaker 1: You know, like like honestly, Um, if you were a teenager,

2640
02:16:55,520 --> 02:16:57,400
Speaker 1: which we grew up in almost the same place you're from,

2641
02:16:57,440 --> 02:17:03,040
Speaker 1: plane oh, from Capel, So I would have argued with

2642
02:17:03,120 --> 02:17:05,160
Speaker 1: you about them being the same place when the same

2643
02:17:05,640 --> 02:17:09,080
Speaker 1: But they're the same place. Yeah, they're absolutely the same place.

2644
02:17:09,400 --> 02:17:13,960
Speaker 1: Yeah one has uh one has uh woot dot com

2645
02:17:14,120 --> 02:17:17,520
Speaker 1: and the other one has raytheon so you know, and

2646
02:17:17,600 --> 02:17:25,080
Speaker 1: a bunch of hospitals. Um. But uh, you and I

2647
02:17:25,200 --> 02:17:27,560
Speaker 1: grew up in the same time, same place, same types

2648
02:17:27,600 --> 02:17:31,320
Speaker 1: of schools. How many times did you see in like

2649
02:17:31,680 --> 02:17:35,920
Speaker 1: high school or even middle school, just a guy hit

2650
02:17:36,000 --> 02:17:38,800
Speaker 1: on a girl and then the girl's boyfriend comes over

2651
02:17:38,879 --> 02:17:41,760
Speaker 1: and just starts fighting him, like like like the guy

2652
02:17:41,920 --> 02:17:45,120
Speaker 1: had no reason to know. He didn't know he was

2653
02:17:45,200 --> 02:17:50,520
Speaker 1: doing anything wrong. Um. And I'm not suggesting, I'm sorry.

2654
02:17:50,600 --> 02:17:55,400
Speaker 1: What I'm pointing out is that, um, it's almost ingrained

2655
02:17:55,800 --> 02:18:00,840
Speaker 1: in us at a societal level to to react violently

2656
02:18:01,440 --> 02:18:06,440
Speaker 1: to maintain like our personal position. And if that means

2657
02:18:06,480 --> 02:18:11,480
Speaker 1: that I'm in my neighborhood and I don't recognize someone,

2658
02:18:12,360 --> 02:18:14,800
Speaker 1: it may seem like violence is the right way to go.

2659
02:18:15,080 --> 02:18:17,800
Speaker 1: That's actually what what you're doing when like what's it called,

2660
02:18:17,879 --> 02:18:20,600
Speaker 1: Karen ng you know where you call somebody the black

2661
02:18:20,800 --> 02:18:25,280
Speaker 1: kid yell uh selling water bottles or whatever. Um, I

2662
02:18:25,400 --> 02:18:27,560
Speaker 1: know that was one in New York where the police

2663
02:18:27,640 --> 02:18:30,440
Speaker 1: came and harassed you know, some like twelve year old

2664
02:18:30,480 --> 02:18:35,039
Speaker 1: black kids because they were selling water bottles. Um, it's

2665
02:18:35,080 --> 02:18:36,640
Speaker 1: the same thing. I mean, you know in that case,

2666
02:18:36,720 --> 02:18:39,160
Speaker 1: you're not personally doing the violence, You're just calling somebody

2667
02:18:39,200 --> 02:18:42,080
Speaker 1: else to do it for you. Um, because you know

2668
02:18:42,200 --> 02:18:44,960
Speaker 1: the police are kind of violence, violence of monopoly and

2669
02:18:45,040 --> 02:18:50,800
Speaker 1: all that. Yeah. Yeah, And that's some one of the

2670
02:18:50,879 --> 02:18:53,880
Speaker 1: most I think important things about that is the idea

2671
02:18:54,080 --> 02:18:58,720
Speaker 1: of violence is like when you when you're willing to

2672
02:18:58,760 --> 02:19:01,080
Speaker 1: accept violence to kind of mean hein your your your

2673
02:19:01,120 --> 02:19:04,080
Speaker 1: social position or something. UM. And I think that has

2674
02:19:04,120 --> 02:19:06,240
Speaker 1: a huge amount to do with with the kind of

2675
02:19:06,320 --> 02:19:09,920
Speaker 1: violence you see um at protests with like we've had,

2676
02:19:10,200 --> 02:19:12,960
Speaker 1: you know, protests quote unquote security here in Portland, people

2677
02:19:13,000 --> 02:19:15,760
Speaker 1: kind of declaring themselves security And what does that mean

2678
02:19:16,240 --> 02:19:19,480
Speaker 1: shooting other kids within guns for graffiti liked up? But

2679
02:19:19,560 --> 02:19:21,360
Speaker 1: it is it is a matter for it's they're not

2680
02:19:21,520 --> 02:19:24,400
Speaker 1: doing it to protect anybody. They're doing it because they've

2681
02:19:24,400 --> 02:19:27,280
Speaker 1: declared themselves security. Somebody doesn't listen to what they say

2682
02:19:27,400 --> 02:19:29,200
Speaker 1: and their ego is hurt. It's the same thing that

2683
02:19:29,320 --> 02:19:31,879
Speaker 1: again cops do. It's this it's a human mindset. It's

2684
02:19:31,920 --> 02:19:36,120
Speaker 1: not just a a cop mindset. And UM, I think

2685
02:19:36,200 --> 02:19:38,960
Speaker 1: you when you're talking about like, I think there's a

2686
02:19:39,040 --> 02:19:41,240
Speaker 1: couple of things. Number One, if you're going to be armed,

2687
02:19:41,280 --> 02:19:42,800
Speaker 1: and if you're going to be armed in a community

2688
02:19:42,840 --> 02:19:44,600
Speaker 1: self defense role, one of the things you have to

2689
02:19:44,680 --> 02:19:48,360
Speaker 1: accept is that like you're not, as a person who

2690
02:19:48,480 --> 02:19:50,760
Speaker 1: is armed and cares about the defense of your community,

2691
02:19:50,840 --> 02:19:53,160
Speaker 1: you're not a separate thing from them. I think that's

2692
02:19:53,160 --> 02:19:55,720
Speaker 1: one of the areas where which policing goes wrong. May

2693
02:19:55,959 --> 02:19:59,640
Speaker 1: view yourself as a separate Yeah, And I know, you

2694
02:20:00,040 --> 02:20:03,080
Speaker 1: guys have a big problem with that. Um, what we

2695
02:20:03,200 --> 02:20:06,840
Speaker 1: do here too. I live in a metro and our

2696
02:20:06,959 --> 02:20:11,440
Speaker 1: metro police, like them, don't even live in the county. Yeah,

2697
02:20:11,720 --> 02:20:14,360
Speaker 1: they all go the same here. Yeah. Yeah, they don't

2698
02:20:14,400 --> 02:20:16,760
Speaker 1: even not just the city, they don't live in the

2699
02:20:16,800 --> 02:20:21,040
Speaker 1: whole county. Um. And that's despite they get a living

2700
02:20:21,080 --> 02:20:23,320
Speaker 1: allowance if they'll live in the city, and there's a

2701
02:20:23,360 --> 02:20:26,039
Speaker 1: bunch of if they live in the city, they get

2702
02:20:26,080 --> 02:20:29,120
Speaker 1: a take home car. There's a bunch of incentives to

2703
02:20:29,240 --> 02:20:32,880
Speaker 1: try and get people to live here, and they still

2704
02:20:32,920 --> 02:20:35,880
Speaker 1: won't do it. They want to go live in the

2705
02:20:35,959 --> 02:20:40,040
Speaker 1: next sheriff over, the next county where yeah we have

2706
02:20:40,120 --> 02:20:42,640
Speaker 1: a very vocal sheriff the next county over. Who's who's

2707
02:20:42,680 --> 02:20:47,160
Speaker 1: really racist and all that ship? Um? And I yeah,

2708
02:20:47,240 --> 02:20:50,800
Speaker 1: I think if you're if you're talking about like the

2709
02:20:50,920 --> 02:20:55,200
Speaker 1: potential of again of like armed community self defense, um

2710
02:20:55,879 --> 02:21:00,320
Speaker 1: you almost I almost would prefer phrasing it de friently

2711
02:21:00,560 --> 02:21:03,720
Speaker 1: community self defense, you know, um, which should be the

2712
02:21:03,959 --> 02:21:10,160
Speaker 1: entire community. Yeah. Yeah, community And you're not the gun

2713
02:21:10,440 --> 02:21:14,360
Speaker 1: isn't what you are. You're not you're not security, you're

2714
02:21:14,400 --> 02:21:17,640
Speaker 1: not self defense because you're armed your self defense because

2715
02:21:17,640 --> 02:21:19,920
Speaker 1: you're a member of the community, and if you personally

2716
02:21:20,000 --> 02:21:23,200
Speaker 1: choose to be armed, that is an option that is

2717
02:21:23,280 --> 02:21:26,279
Speaker 1: expanded to you specifically because you're armed. But it doesn't

2718
02:21:26,360 --> 02:21:28,560
Speaker 1: change fun. It shouldn't change what you are. And if

2719
02:21:28,640 --> 02:21:32,840
Speaker 1: it does, there's a phrase that I think is really useful, Um,

2720
02:21:33,400 --> 02:21:35,400
Speaker 1: the finger pulls the trigger and if you want to

2721
02:21:35,440 --> 02:21:38,199
Speaker 1: avoid or the trigger pulls the finger. Sorry. And it's

2722
02:21:38,240 --> 02:21:41,480
Speaker 1: this idea that when you show up armed, and you're

2723
02:21:41,520 --> 02:21:44,480
Speaker 1: showing up armed as someone like your purpose there is

2724
02:21:44,560 --> 02:21:47,280
Speaker 1: to be armed, you're at at heavy risk of the

2725
02:21:47,400 --> 02:21:52,400
Speaker 1: weapon guiding your responses. Um. And that's the most important

2726
02:21:52,480 --> 02:21:55,640
Speaker 1: thing in any circumstance to avoid if you're carrying a weapon.

2727
02:21:55,760 --> 02:22:00,640
Speaker 1: If if you've gotta hammer, everything's a nail exactly. Well.

2728
02:22:00,800 --> 02:22:04,800
Speaker 1: And and uh, the last twenty years we've had kind

2729
02:22:04,840 --> 02:22:07,440
Speaker 1: of a with the War on Terror. You've seen a

2730
02:22:07,480 --> 02:22:14,720
Speaker 1: proliferation in media around um making Navy Seals and all

2731
02:22:14,760 --> 02:22:18,560
Speaker 1: that ship look really really really cool. Uh, every other

2732
02:22:18,640 --> 02:22:21,240
Speaker 1: movie is about that, even though like, really they're just

2733
02:22:22,040 --> 02:22:25,400
Speaker 1: drunk guys who yell at people a lot and who

2734
02:22:25,480 --> 02:22:28,480
Speaker 1: occasionally commit murder to protect. Or was that was that

2735
02:22:28,560 --> 02:22:30,440
Speaker 1: the Seals? Was that the Green Berets who killed that

2736
02:22:30,520 --> 02:22:33,800
Speaker 1: guy to protect a drug trafficking Greg, I mean probably both.

2737
02:22:34,000 --> 02:22:35,960
Speaker 1: Oh you know that that was the Green Berets in

2738
02:22:36,120 --> 02:22:40,160
Speaker 1: North Carolina. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it

2739
02:22:40,280 --> 02:22:43,320
Speaker 1: crosses all all borders. Um. But one thing that's come

2740
02:22:43,320 --> 02:22:46,800
Speaker 1: out of that is we we've started to call those

2741
02:22:46,840 --> 02:22:51,640
Speaker 1: guys operators, right, So you've gone from a gun being

2742
02:22:51,720 --> 02:22:56,360
Speaker 1: a tool that someone trains there to use too, they

2743
02:22:56,360 --> 02:23:00,800
Speaker 1: are merely an operator of a weapons system. Um. And

2744
02:23:01,000 --> 02:23:04,920
Speaker 1: it it's kind of dehumanizing, like it allows you to

2745
02:23:05,320 --> 02:23:08,000
Speaker 1: get out of the thought on that. Um, it's exactly

2746
02:23:08,040 --> 02:23:10,440
Speaker 1: what you were talking about. Where where the triggers really

2747
02:23:10,520 --> 02:23:15,040
Speaker 1: pulling the finger at that point? Um? Yeah, And it's

2748
02:23:15,200 --> 02:23:17,600
Speaker 1: it's I think there's a number of I don't know,

2749
02:23:18,680 --> 02:23:21,560
Speaker 1: there's a number of tactics and more than we can

2750
02:23:21,600 --> 02:23:23,400
Speaker 1: get through, and that we'll be talking with some other

2751
02:23:23,480 --> 02:23:25,720
Speaker 1: community to self defense people at some point in the

2752
02:23:25,800 --> 02:23:28,440
Speaker 1: near future about this, because this is a big topic, right,

2753
02:23:28,480 --> 02:23:30,800
Speaker 1: and it's not one I haven't seen anyone do it

2754
02:23:31,240 --> 02:23:34,640
Speaker 1: super well yet in the United States like we anytime

2755
02:23:34,720 --> 02:23:38,000
Speaker 1: you have kind of persistent right wingers every once in

2756
02:23:38,080 --> 02:23:43,480
Speaker 1: a while, yeah, yeah, they take over blm Land. Yeah, yeah,

2757
02:23:43,959 --> 02:23:46,360
Speaker 1: but then they die. I forgot about that. Yeah, they

2758
02:23:46,400 --> 02:23:51,880
Speaker 1: did die get killed. Um And I think that it's

2759
02:23:52,000 --> 02:23:56,800
Speaker 1: it's a it's a really messy topic because of you know,

2760
02:23:56,920 --> 02:23:59,160
Speaker 1: what you brought up is a valid point, all the

2761
02:24:00,040 --> 02:24:02,440
Speaker 1: reading that all the kind of social baggage there is

2762
02:24:02,480 --> 02:24:05,080
Speaker 1: around weaponry in this in this country and in our

2763
02:24:05,200 --> 02:24:08,400
Speaker 1: in our culture. This kind of like worship of the gun.

2764
02:24:08,600 --> 02:24:11,680
Speaker 1: And if you think like the left is any more

2765
02:24:11,720 --> 02:24:13,640
Speaker 1: immune to that than the right, you're wrong. You see

2766
02:24:13,680 --> 02:24:16,360
Speaker 1: the same you know, toxic behavior all around. You have

2767
02:24:16,520 --> 02:24:19,520
Speaker 1: to be extremely cognizant of it, even if you know

2768
02:24:19,600 --> 02:24:22,440
Speaker 1: it's something at the risk for there is um weapons

2769
02:24:22,480 --> 02:24:26,080
Speaker 1: in general have a mental impact on us carrying them. Um.

2770
02:24:26,240 --> 02:24:28,040
Speaker 1: And there is there is a level of just like

2771
02:24:28,160 --> 02:24:32,160
Speaker 1: being around weaponry that is entrancing. It's it's a human thing.

2772
02:24:32,240 --> 02:24:35,240
Speaker 1: You know, we make weapons. It's we're too using apes

2773
02:24:35,280 --> 02:24:37,520
Speaker 1: and weapons are some of the first tools that we

2774
02:24:37,680 --> 02:24:41,040
Speaker 1: made that that are responsible for why you know, we

2775
02:24:41,160 --> 02:24:43,800
Speaker 1: get to tell the dogs and the cats what to do. Um.

2776
02:24:45,040 --> 02:24:48,600
Speaker 1: And you have to you have to really approach being

2777
02:24:48,840 --> 02:24:52,760
Speaker 1: armed from a standpoint of rejecting a lot of that.

2778
02:24:52,959 --> 02:24:55,160
Speaker 1: If you're going to do it responsibly. I mean, among

2779
02:24:55,240 --> 02:24:57,440
Speaker 1: other things, the idea that you might have to use

2780
02:24:57,520 --> 02:25:01,720
Speaker 1: a gun UM has to be you're you're very close

2781
02:25:01,800 --> 02:25:05,880
Speaker 1: to your worst nightmare UM, because it would be it

2782
02:25:05,959 --> 02:25:08,240
Speaker 1: would be if you ever actually had to use one.

2783
02:25:08,800 --> 02:25:10,960
Speaker 1: UM at minimum, you're talking like when you actually look

2784
02:25:11,000 --> 02:25:14,280
Speaker 1: at like legal self defense shoots, you're talking minimum. The

2785
02:25:14,360 --> 02:25:17,040
Speaker 1: next if you kill somebody, at least minimum, the next

2786
02:25:17,120 --> 02:25:20,760
Speaker 1: year of your life is dealing with the legal consequences

2787
02:25:20,800 --> 02:25:23,880
Speaker 1: of that. Sure, and probably hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah,

2788
02:25:24,360 --> 02:25:28,080
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're having if if IF IF file,

2789
02:25:28,440 --> 02:25:32,000
Speaker 1: if charges get filed, you're talking hundreds of thousands of

2790
02:25:32,080 --> 02:25:37,320
Speaker 1: dollars for like a capital defense case, if not millions. Yeah,

2791
02:25:37,879 --> 02:25:40,120
Speaker 1: And and that's in you know. There's one of the

2792
02:25:40,160 --> 02:25:43,680
Speaker 1: gun YouTubers that I like to push people towards it

2793
02:25:44,280 --> 02:25:46,200
Speaker 1: for this kind of stuff is a guy named Paul Harrold,

2794
02:25:46,240 --> 02:25:49,040
Speaker 1: who is certainly more on the conservative side, but who

2795
02:25:49,080 --> 02:25:51,640
Speaker 1: actually killed somebody in a self defense and went through

2796
02:25:51,640 --> 02:25:54,000
Speaker 1: the whole legal process afterwards. And he has a couple

2797
02:25:54,040 --> 02:25:55,800
Speaker 1: of videos where he talks about it, and he gives

2798
02:25:56,240 --> 02:25:59,720
Speaker 1: I think pretty good advice on that. That is that

2799
02:25:59,879 --> 02:26:02,960
Speaker 1: is completely without ego because it was a nightmare for him.

2800
02:26:03,000 --> 02:26:04,960
Speaker 1: It was the worst experience of his life, which is

2801
02:26:05,040 --> 02:26:06,520
Speaker 1: what it's going to be if you ever have to

2802
02:26:06,600 --> 02:26:09,920
Speaker 1: use a gun, and that should be like, that should

2803
02:26:09,920 --> 02:26:12,000
Speaker 1: be the top of your that should be the top

2804
02:26:12,040 --> 02:26:13,680
Speaker 1: of your mindset. You know, I've been in this situation

2805
02:26:13,760 --> 02:26:15,920
Speaker 1: a couple of times at protests where like someone pulls

2806
02:26:15,959 --> 02:26:18,720
Speaker 1: a knife and starts lunging at people and I have

2807
02:26:18,840 --> 02:26:21,920
Speaker 1: a gun and I'm fifteen feet away, and I never

2808
02:26:22,160 --> 02:26:26,600
Speaker 1: drew in part because it never quite crossed that line

2809
02:26:26,959 --> 02:26:30,480
Speaker 1: for me, and I knew that giving people the chance

2810
02:26:30,560 --> 02:26:35,000
Speaker 1: to deescalate was vastly more important than um introducing a

2811
02:26:35,120 --> 02:26:38,720
Speaker 1: second weapon to the situation immediately. And if things had

2812
02:26:38,720 --> 02:26:41,400
Speaker 1: gone differently, perhaps I would feel differently about my choices

2813
02:26:41,440 --> 02:26:44,640
Speaker 1: in that moment. But um, they didn't and nobody got hurt.

2814
02:26:44,640 --> 02:26:46,640
Speaker 1: And that's always the best case scenario, even if it's

2815
02:26:47,240 --> 02:26:51,760
Speaker 1: somebody you really dislike who is who is threatening people

2816
02:26:51,800 --> 02:26:54,960
Speaker 1: with a weapon. I swear that happened up in Olympia

2817
02:26:55,080 --> 02:26:58,680
Speaker 1: like two weeks ago. Yeah, Well, the shooting in Olympia,

2818
02:26:58,840 --> 02:27:01,200
Speaker 1: which was a guy named Tye Me who got shot UM,

2819
02:27:01,440 --> 02:27:04,560
Speaker 1: and there's video of it. It's absolutely not illegally justified

2820
02:27:04,640 --> 02:27:09,360
Speaker 1: shoot for sure. Like, yeah he was he was like

2821
02:27:09,480 --> 02:27:12,800
Speaker 1: forty feet away, you know. Um, yeah, but he's really tall.

2822
02:27:13,360 --> 02:27:15,959
Speaker 1: He is big, he is I think that counts for something.

2823
02:27:16,760 --> 02:27:19,200
Speaker 1: He was tall, he was tall, he was chasing them,

2824
02:27:19,240 --> 02:27:22,800
Speaker 1: he was armed. Um. Not making a moral case here.

2825
02:27:23,600 --> 02:27:25,680
Speaker 1: I think legally they would have had a trouble had

2826
02:27:25,760 --> 02:27:28,680
Speaker 1: they stayed around. Now, of course they've got I believe

2827
02:27:28,720 --> 02:27:31,240
Speaker 1: they've been arrested at this point. Oh have they? I

2828
02:27:31,600 --> 02:27:37,200
Speaker 1: just didn't think so. So sorry. I don't mean to

2829
02:27:37,280 --> 02:27:40,440
Speaker 1: crash it for a second. I think I saw our

2830
02:27:40,760 --> 02:27:47,320
Speaker 1: best friend Andy post something about it three days ago.

2831
02:27:47,400 --> 02:27:51,000
Speaker 1: Three Yeah, okay, so they did. They did arrest the guy. Yeah.

2832
02:27:51,120 --> 02:27:54,360
Speaker 1: And it's you know, it's another thing if you, um,

2833
02:27:55,920 --> 02:27:58,000
Speaker 1: if you feel if if you're involved in like a

2834
02:27:58,080 --> 02:28:02,160
Speaker 1: shooting that you feel is a just defined legal shooting. Um,

2835
02:28:02,480 --> 02:28:05,240
Speaker 1: you don't. You don't leave the scene. Uh. And in fact,

2836
02:28:05,320 --> 02:28:07,240
Speaker 1: one of the better videos you'll get on like what

2837
02:28:07,440 --> 02:28:10,360
Speaker 1: to do and uh, this guy's life has gone to

2838
02:28:10,400 --> 02:28:12,400
Speaker 1: ship because of the political nature of your shooting. But

2839
02:28:12,440 --> 02:28:15,520
Speaker 1: the guy in um in Denver who shot that dude

2840
02:28:15,560 --> 02:28:20,080
Speaker 1: at a protest, the pinker, I'll tell you, you know, no,

2841
02:28:20,240 --> 02:28:21,880
Speaker 1: no matter what you want to say about whether or

2842
02:28:21,920 --> 02:28:24,040
Speaker 1: not it was a good shoot. Yeah, that that he

2843
02:28:24,160 --> 02:28:27,880
Speaker 1: dropped that fucking guy. I mean he dropped head down

2844
02:28:27,959 --> 02:28:34,520
Speaker 1: on his knees. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. You know, again,

2845
02:28:34,760 --> 02:28:36,760
Speaker 1: the court case is not settled out, so I don't

2846
02:28:36,760 --> 02:28:38,520
Speaker 1: know if that guy's story is going to end happily.

2847
02:28:38,560 --> 02:28:40,640
Speaker 1: But in terms of if you want to not get

2848
02:28:40,720 --> 02:28:43,320
Speaker 1: shot yourself and you want to have the maximum chance

2849
02:28:43,360 --> 02:28:45,840
Speaker 1: of defending yourself if you have to shoot somebody in

2850
02:28:45,879 --> 02:28:49,320
Speaker 1: a situation that's legally justified, what that guy did after

2851
02:28:49,440 --> 02:28:52,960
Speaker 1: the shoot is how to handle it. Um. And I

2852
02:28:53,040 --> 02:28:54,800
Speaker 1: mean the evidence for that is he did not get shot.

2853
02:28:54,959 --> 02:28:57,640
Speaker 1: And obviously your mileage with that's gonna vary depending on

2854
02:28:57,720 --> 02:29:02,959
Speaker 1: your skin color. Uh yeah, that's actor. Yeah. In terms

2855
02:29:03,000 --> 02:29:07,040
Speaker 1: of actual training, people can like pay for if they

2856
02:29:07,160 --> 02:29:08,920
Speaker 1: if they want to take that step, which I think

2857
02:29:09,080 --> 02:29:12,080
Speaker 1: is a good idea. Um, who do you do. Do

2858
02:29:12,120 --> 02:29:14,560
Speaker 1: you have kind of like broad recommendations for how people

2859
02:29:14,640 --> 02:29:16,680
Speaker 1: can know if some things you know, because there's this

2860
02:29:16,800 --> 02:29:19,120
Speaker 1: is certainly a space where there's a lot of grifters

2861
02:29:19,160 --> 02:29:27,240
Speaker 1: and whatnot. Um, yeah, I mean most of the beginner level, Uh,

2862
02:29:28,160 --> 02:29:31,960
Speaker 1: how to fight with a gun. Classes are two to

2863
02:29:32,080 --> 02:29:34,760
Speaker 1: three days long like that. That's a good starting point

2864
02:29:35,120 --> 02:29:38,119
Speaker 1: is the fact that you're going to pay probably three

2865
02:29:38,200 --> 02:29:42,600
Speaker 1: to five hundred dollars per day, um, and it's going

2866
02:29:42,720 --> 02:29:47,160
Speaker 1: to be multiple days long. You can't because you're going

2867
02:29:47,600 --> 02:29:50,840
Speaker 1: from a baseline. You know, they know you already know

2868
02:29:50,959 --> 02:29:53,880
Speaker 1: how to point and shoot a gun, but they're going

2869
02:29:53,920 --> 02:29:56,840
Speaker 1: to go up for everything on how to draw, how

2870
02:29:56,920 --> 02:29:59,880
Speaker 1: to move, how to reload. Um. You're gonna have some

2871
02:30:00,040 --> 02:30:04,160
Speaker 1: classroom time going over their specific safety instructions and stuff

2872
02:30:04,240 --> 02:30:07,840
Speaker 1: like that. UM. But anything you can do in one

2873
02:30:07,920 --> 02:30:11,840
Speaker 1: day or four hours or forty rounds or whatever, it

2874
02:30:11,959 --> 02:30:15,960
Speaker 1: isn't going to cut it. Um. You need to go

2875
02:30:16,400 --> 02:30:19,160
Speaker 1: get something, and you need to listen because they're going

2876
02:30:19,200 --> 02:30:21,200
Speaker 1: to ask you to do things that might not be

2877
02:30:21,680 --> 02:30:24,680
Speaker 1: the way you want to do it. You might say, yeah,

2878
02:30:24,800 --> 02:30:26,600
Speaker 1: that's not the way my dad taught me how to

2879
02:30:26,800 --> 02:30:33,080
Speaker 1: reload a handgun. UM. A good example is actually UM

2880
02:30:34,040 --> 02:30:37,880
Speaker 1: tactical Response in Tennessee. They a lot of people hate them,

2881
02:30:38,200 --> 02:30:40,760
Speaker 1: but they have a very specific way that they say,

2882
02:30:40,920 --> 02:30:43,400
Speaker 1: everyone reloads this way in our class. You know, you

2883
02:30:43,440 --> 02:30:45,920
Speaker 1: put it in and you sling shot the slide um.

2884
02:30:46,640 --> 02:30:48,800
Speaker 1: And and people will argue and go, well I want

2885
02:30:48,800 --> 02:30:50,720
Speaker 1: to just press the button. Well the button is cool

2886
02:30:50,760 --> 02:30:52,560
Speaker 1: and all, but we want you to sling shot the slide.

2887
02:30:52,600 --> 02:30:56,920
Speaker 1: Just do it for this class. Um. Sorry I got

2888
02:30:56,959 --> 02:30:59,760
Speaker 1: a little off topic there. No, no, no, that's a

2889
02:30:59,800 --> 02:31:05,360
Speaker 1: good point too, because I mean and listen, um. And

2890
02:31:05,480 --> 02:31:08,600
Speaker 1: you don't have to take everything away. You you take

2891
02:31:08,720 --> 02:31:12,360
Speaker 1: what you saw as good usable information and merge that

2892
02:31:12,560 --> 02:31:15,480
Speaker 1: with what you already know, maybe throw away some of

2893
02:31:15,560 --> 02:31:17,200
Speaker 1: what you already know when you've got this ball a

2894
02:31:17,280 --> 02:31:23,120
Speaker 1: goo that you can work with h for practice. Um yeah, yeah,

2895
02:31:23,720 --> 02:31:26,720
Speaker 1: and yeah it is. And to that point when you're

2896
02:31:26,720 --> 02:31:30,480
Speaker 1: talking about like training, one of the differences between handguns

2897
02:31:30,520 --> 02:31:33,000
Speaker 1: and rifles, Like all all shooting, as always there's a

2898
02:31:33,040 --> 02:31:35,279
Speaker 1: degree of perishable nous to it, but shooting a handgun

2899
02:31:35,400 --> 02:31:38,600
Speaker 1: is a much more perishable skill than shooting a rifle. Um.

2900
02:31:39,240 --> 02:31:41,680
Speaker 1: And it's it's so if you're going to be armed

2901
02:31:41,720 --> 02:31:45,040
Speaker 1: with a handgun, UM, it really behooves you to take

2902
02:31:45,480 --> 02:31:49,400
Speaker 1: to train, you know, because you're only as good as

2903
02:31:49,440 --> 02:31:53,080
Speaker 1: how often you've been out there. Really um and having

2904
02:31:53,120 --> 02:31:55,920
Speaker 1: a state a good foundation, like taking some real professional

2905
02:31:56,000 --> 02:31:58,200
Speaker 1: classes will help a lot in that as opposed to

2906
02:31:58,280 --> 02:31:59,879
Speaker 1: just kind of going out to the range every now

2907
02:32:00,000 --> 02:32:03,920
Speaker 1: and again. But yeah, um, let's talk at the s.

2908
02:32:04,160 --> 02:32:06,840
Speaker 1: The last little bit of this here about kind of

2909
02:32:06,920 --> 02:32:09,600
Speaker 1: the gun that's always on the tip of everybody's tongue

2910
02:32:09,640 --> 02:32:13,439
Speaker 1: when you start talking about being armed and armed self defenses.

2911
02:32:13,600 --> 02:32:16,760
Speaker 1: You know, the A R platform. Um, it's a gun

2912
02:32:16,840 --> 02:32:20,000
Speaker 1: with a lot of baggage, a tremendous amount of cultural baggage,

2913
02:32:20,080 --> 02:32:22,560
Speaker 1: and it's it has become vastly more than just a

2914
02:32:22,640 --> 02:32:27,000
Speaker 1: firearm in our culture. Um what a what? What do

2915
02:32:27,040 --> 02:32:29,480
Speaker 1: you what? Are kind of? Because I am a big

2916
02:32:29,560 --> 02:32:33,000
Speaker 1: advocate of people who who are open to being armed

2917
02:32:33,400 --> 02:32:36,039
Speaker 1: getting an A R platform. I think it's a great

2918
02:32:36,080 --> 02:32:38,800
Speaker 1: gun to learn. I mean it goes yeah, it goes

2919
02:32:38,920 --> 02:32:42,360
Speaker 1: bang really well almost every time, as long as it's

2920
02:32:42,400 --> 02:32:47,880
Speaker 1: from a reputable manufacturer. Um, despite what some people say,

2921
02:32:48,280 --> 02:32:53,440
Speaker 1: they're very reliable. Um, they're easy to clean. Literally as

2922
02:32:53,520 --> 02:32:55,920
Speaker 1: long as you keep them lubricated. Even in the field,

2923
02:32:55,959 --> 02:32:58,360
Speaker 1: you keep it lubricated, it will just just keep banging

2924
02:32:58,400 --> 02:33:02,640
Speaker 1: out rounds and it functions in you know, we talked

2925
02:33:02,680 --> 02:33:05,000
Speaker 1: about this during the episodes on like you know, food

2926
02:33:05,120 --> 02:33:08,600
Speaker 1: storage and in and whatnot, Like where there's A. There's

2927
02:33:08,640 --> 02:33:12,120
Speaker 1: the there's the cheap version. I like stuff where there's

2928
02:33:12,240 --> 02:33:15,120
Speaker 1: there's the cheap version that works, and there's the expensive

2929
02:33:15,200 --> 02:33:17,640
Speaker 1: version that works. And you you have that with an

2930
02:33:17,680 --> 02:33:20,240
Speaker 1: A R. You can get a very inexpensive ARE and

2931
02:33:20,360 --> 02:33:22,720
Speaker 1: you can you can replace every part of that ARE

2932
02:33:22,800 --> 02:33:25,000
Speaker 1: over the next five years and have a six thousand

2933
02:33:25,040 --> 02:33:29,240
Speaker 1: dollar gun. I I did um minor price checking last

2934
02:33:29,320 --> 02:33:30,880
Speaker 1: night because I was like, you know, I haven't checked

2935
02:33:30,920 --> 02:33:34,240
Speaker 1: the price the retail prices on stuff right, so in

2936
02:33:34,400 --> 02:33:37,760
Speaker 1: like your your budget tier normal price that that's out

2937
02:33:37,840 --> 02:33:40,760
Speaker 1: right Now, you've got like a Ruger, a R five

2938
02:33:40,840 --> 02:33:44,120
Speaker 1: five six, there's seven hundred bucks. That's that's dirt cheap,

2939
02:33:44,200 --> 02:33:47,160
Speaker 1: and it's gonna go bang, just in the same red gun. Yeah.

2940
02:33:47,160 --> 02:33:49,360
Speaker 1: I have a friend who who's who's a R is

2941
02:33:49,400 --> 02:33:51,840
Speaker 1: a RE five five six and they're very solid. Yeah,

2942
02:33:51,959 --> 02:33:54,560
Speaker 1: they just they go bang every time. You're not going

2943
02:33:54,640 --> 02:33:56,840
Speaker 1: to break up, um, I mean, as long as you

2944
02:33:56,840 --> 02:33:58,360
Speaker 1: don't use it like a baseball bat, you're not going

2945
02:33:58,400 --> 02:34:01,640
Speaker 1: to break up, especially now that the Russian steelcase dammo

2946
02:34:01,720 --> 02:34:07,040
Speaker 1: has been banned. But then like the the other end

2947
02:34:07,080 --> 02:34:10,640
Speaker 1: of the spectrum is you got a sick right, Yeah,

2948
02:34:10,680 --> 02:34:13,080
Speaker 1: I've got a couple. Okay, so you know what the

2949
02:34:13,200 --> 02:34:16,800
Speaker 1: rattler is. Oh, yeah, that's a fun one. I do

2950
02:34:16,959 --> 02:34:19,280
Speaker 1: not own a rattler, but they are they are cute.

2951
02:34:19,560 --> 02:34:24,720
Speaker 1: Do you know how much? Well, first off, the rattler

2952
02:34:24,840 --> 02:34:27,880
Speaker 1: it's a short, bare old five five six. It's not

2953
02:34:28,160 --> 02:34:31,240
Speaker 1: really an air of fifteen, but like technically it kind

2954
02:34:31,280 --> 02:34:37,280
Speaker 1: of is. Yeah, um, and it's well, how about this,

2955
02:34:37,400 --> 02:34:39,600
Speaker 1: how much do you think that the rattler costs? Right now?

2956
02:34:39,680 --> 02:34:43,320
Speaker 1: Don't don't go look it, just just say probably bucks

2957
02:34:43,360 --> 02:34:50,560
Speaker 1: would be my guess. Now it's uh now, I actually

2958
02:34:50,600 --> 02:34:53,560
Speaker 1: put it in my category of honorable mentioned slash meme

2959
02:34:54,200 --> 02:34:58,800
Speaker 1: because it's kind of a meme. Gun. Uh it's so tiny, um,

2960
02:34:59,040 --> 02:35:00,920
Speaker 1: but I don't want to get out with it. But

2961
02:35:01,080 --> 02:35:04,080
Speaker 1: that's kind of the spread we were talking about, which is,

2962
02:35:04,280 --> 02:35:06,680
Speaker 1: you know, you can get a seven d dollar gun

2963
02:35:07,280 --> 02:35:10,760
Speaker 1: and it'll go bang the exact same way as the rattler. Um,

2964
02:35:11,480 --> 02:35:15,840
Speaker 1: it fires the same bullet um, and you can build

2965
02:35:15,920 --> 02:35:18,080
Speaker 1: up to something not like a rattler, but you can

2966
02:35:18,120 --> 02:35:22,200
Speaker 1: build up to um a bunch of novesky parts. You

2967
02:35:22,240 --> 02:35:25,440
Speaker 1: can throw a bunch of novesky parts into that ruger

2968
02:35:25,600 --> 02:35:28,760
Speaker 1: lower and upper that you bought and build a really

2969
02:35:29,080 --> 02:35:34,960
Speaker 1: awesome gun that will be you know, nine percent reliable. Yeah, yeah,

2970
02:35:35,600 --> 02:35:38,360
Speaker 1: and you can you know, I think generally if you're

2971
02:35:38,400 --> 02:35:41,000
Speaker 1: buying like a again, you're you're getting kind of a

2972
02:35:41,800 --> 02:35:45,160
Speaker 1: bargain basement. Are one of the first things that that

2973
02:35:45,280 --> 02:35:47,480
Speaker 1: it's going to behoove you to replaces the optics. You know,

2974
02:35:47,520 --> 02:35:50,600
Speaker 1: it'll probably start with ion sights. But these don't even

2975
02:35:50,680 --> 02:35:54,000
Speaker 1: come with anything. Yeah, usually they come with nothing on

2976
02:35:54,120 --> 02:35:55,720
Speaker 1: him and you have to stick the irons or you

2977
02:35:55,760 --> 02:35:58,160
Speaker 1: stick a reflex site. There's a whole world of um

2978
02:35:59,080 --> 02:36:00,800
Speaker 1: of optics. And I think one of the actually one

2979
02:36:00,800 --> 02:36:04,000
Speaker 1: of the websites I recommend people check into if you're

2980
02:36:04,040 --> 02:36:06,080
Speaker 1: looking and kind of reading up on this and and

2981
02:36:06,200 --> 02:36:10,240
Speaker 1: doing your due diligence is Pew Pew tactical um. They

2982
02:36:10,320 --> 02:36:13,360
Speaker 1: do not written from like a super you know, chutty

2983
02:36:13,600 --> 02:36:15,879
Speaker 1: or whatever. Like you get a lot of very political

2984
02:36:16,320 --> 02:36:18,640
Speaker 1: gun websites that may have some good information that are

2985
02:36:18,840 --> 02:36:21,480
Speaker 1: frustrating to read. They're not that way. They're written you know,

2986
02:36:21,640 --> 02:36:25,040
Speaker 1: four people who are not super aggro about guns, but

2987
02:36:25,120 --> 02:36:27,280
Speaker 1: who are are are interested in guns, and you can

2988
02:36:27,320 --> 02:36:29,520
Speaker 1: find really good reviews on stuff. But as a general rule,

2989
02:36:30,240 --> 02:36:32,840
Speaker 1: modern optics beeed iron sights every day of the like

2990
02:36:33,360 --> 02:36:35,280
Speaker 1: they prefer I I and I do in some case

2991
02:36:35,760 --> 02:36:38,440
Speaker 1: on my a case, I vastly prefer using irons, But

2992
02:36:38,520 --> 02:36:40,320
Speaker 1: that would never be the weapon I would pick if

2993
02:36:40,760 --> 02:36:43,200
Speaker 1: I was in a situation where I needed a weapon,

2994
02:36:43,320 --> 02:36:47,680
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, I mean I think everyone should learn

2995
02:36:47,959 --> 02:36:53,200
Speaker 1: how to use iron sights, absolutely, But if I can

2996
02:36:53,320 --> 02:36:56,320
Speaker 1: hand someone a four D and fifty dollar aim point

2997
02:36:56,400 --> 02:37:00,440
Speaker 1: pro which which is uh the budget for version of

2998
02:37:00,560 --> 02:37:04,360
Speaker 1: a high end optic, if I can put a four

2999
02:37:04,440 --> 02:37:07,280
Speaker 1: under and fifty optic with the mountain everything onto a

3000
02:37:07,440 --> 02:37:11,160
Speaker 1: rifle and just go, hey, just just put the dot

3001
02:37:11,200 --> 02:37:15,160
Speaker 1: on what you want to shoot, You're done. Um. Now,

3002
02:37:15,240 --> 02:37:17,560
Speaker 1: there's a lot that goes past that, but we got

3003
02:37:17,720 --> 02:37:21,320
Speaker 1: rid of the entire proper site alignment and all that.

3004
02:37:21,440 --> 02:37:23,039
Speaker 1: They just got to put the dot on the box

3005
02:37:23,120 --> 02:37:27,560
Speaker 1: and squeeze. Yeah. Yeah, I mean even even the Marine Corps,

3006
02:37:27,920 --> 02:37:32,040
Speaker 1: famous for for fielding marksman, has gone we're going to

3007
02:37:32,160 --> 02:37:36,400
Speaker 1: switch over to optic based training. Yeah, they're just I

3008
02:37:36,440 --> 02:37:38,680
Speaker 1: mean you look at even guys in like id Lib Province,

3009
02:37:38,760 --> 02:37:41,200
Speaker 1: which is like one of the rebel provinces in Syria

3010
02:37:41,320 --> 02:37:45,240
Speaker 1: that's been persistently under siege for most of the last decade. Um,

3011
02:37:45,959 --> 02:37:49,199
Speaker 1: they're all using fancy optics now like that generally alf

3012
02:37:49,280 --> 02:37:52,440
Speaker 1: and Ali Baba versions of like brand optics. But it

3013
02:37:52,520 --> 02:37:54,560
Speaker 1: does the trick, you know. I mean it's a it's

3014
02:37:54,600 --> 02:37:57,080
Speaker 1: a sig Romeo that never got the role market for

3015
02:37:57,160 --> 02:38:00,320
Speaker 1: cig on it. Yeah, exactly, and they paid a hundred

3016
02:38:00,320 --> 02:38:05,400
Speaker 1: bucks instead. Yeah. Um, alright, Well, I think that's most

3017
02:38:05,600 --> 02:38:08,200
Speaker 1: of what we can responsibly get through. I do want

3018
02:38:08,200 --> 02:38:10,320
Speaker 1: to end on the caveat we started with this with,

3019
02:38:10,520 --> 02:38:14,520
Speaker 1: which is that um deciding whether or not and and

3020
02:38:15,240 --> 02:38:19,760
Speaker 1: I we advocate, uh, firearms is an option both as

3021
02:38:19,800 --> 02:38:22,480
Speaker 1: a legal option and something that can be for your

3022
02:38:22,520 --> 02:38:26,240
Speaker 1: community and for you as an individual potentially practical. I

3023
02:38:26,320 --> 02:38:29,360
Speaker 1: don't blanket advise people to buy guns. I think in

3024
02:38:29,440 --> 02:38:32,440
Speaker 1: many cases it's going to be counterproductive. I think you

3025
02:38:32,480 --> 02:38:34,920
Speaker 1: should not own a firearm. Again, if you're someone who

3026
02:38:35,440 --> 02:38:39,120
Speaker 1: struggles with suicidal ideation, they they can be a very

3027
02:38:39,200 --> 02:38:41,199
Speaker 1: dangerous thing to have in your home if that's something

3028
02:38:41,320 --> 02:38:44,160
Speaker 1: that that you battle with. I do think that they

3029
02:38:44,200 --> 02:38:47,360
Speaker 1: can be owned and used very responsibly. In addition to

3030
02:38:47,600 --> 02:38:50,880
Speaker 1: I think shooting can be a really enjoyable pastime um,

3031
02:38:51,040 --> 02:38:53,080
Speaker 1: and I think more than anything, when a whole bunch

3032
02:38:53,160 --> 02:38:56,120
Speaker 1: of people who are talking about killing you all have guns,

3033
02:38:56,520 --> 02:38:58,480
Speaker 1: it can behoove you to own a firearm as well

3034
02:38:58,959 --> 02:39:01,760
Speaker 1: if you're a member of one of those communities. So

3035
02:39:02,240 --> 02:39:05,160
Speaker 1: please don't take any of this. As Robert Evans says,

3036
02:39:05,280 --> 02:39:07,480
Speaker 1: everyone go buy a gun. But if you're going to

3037
02:39:07,560 --> 02:39:10,560
Speaker 1: buy a gun, there's there's a right way and a

3038
02:39:10,600 --> 02:39:13,520
Speaker 1: responsible way to go about it, and there's you know,

3039
02:39:13,920 --> 02:39:16,240
Speaker 1: picking up a random twelve gauge and shoving it under

3040
02:39:16,240 --> 02:39:21,400
Speaker 1: your bed, which is no more shotguns for home defense. Yeah,

3041
02:39:21,879 --> 02:39:26,160
Speaker 1: they're not. They're not ideal. Um, yeah, I mean we can,

3042
02:39:26,240 --> 02:39:29,280
Speaker 1: we can talk about over penetration and stuff, but yeah,

3043
02:39:29,640 --> 02:39:34,520
Speaker 1: I mean just being able to move lead in a

3044
02:39:34,600 --> 02:39:39,760
Speaker 1: direction they're very bad at. Yeah. Um yeah, yeah, they're

3045
02:39:39,800 --> 02:39:42,160
Speaker 1: they're They're not They're not. I mean again, something like

3046
02:39:42,440 --> 02:39:46,080
Speaker 1: uh an a R or a pistol caliber carbine is

3047
02:39:46,240 --> 02:39:48,760
Speaker 1: in a lot of situations going to be a much

3048
02:39:48,800 --> 02:39:52,000
Speaker 1: more practical and and have less risk of hitting stuff

3049
02:39:52,040 --> 02:39:55,200
Speaker 1: you don't want to hit necessarily. Get the high point?

3050
02:39:55,480 --> 02:40:01,320
Speaker 1: Um yeat yeah, they eat cannon. Well, we'll discuss that

3051
02:40:01,400 --> 02:40:04,440
Speaker 1: on our whole episode of about high points. So you've

3052
02:40:04,440 --> 02:40:12,320
Speaker 1: shot yourself in the dick the high points story. All right, well, um,

3053
02:40:13,000 --> 02:40:15,120
Speaker 1: do you wanna Paul, you've got any got anything to

3054
02:40:15,200 --> 02:40:19,200
Speaker 1: plug before we roll out here? Uh? Give food to

3055
02:40:20,280 --> 02:40:24,320
Speaker 1: homeless people? Well houseless, houseless, I think is yeah. Um.

3056
02:40:25,000 --> 02:40:26,960
Speaker 1: And if you're in an area with a based d

3057
02:40:27,200 --> 02:40:30,039
Speaker 1: S A, joined the d S I and then vote

3058
02:40:30,080 --> 02:40:34,960
Speaker 1: out the ship loads. That's what's happening here in Orlando. Um.

3059
02:40:36,280 --> 02:40:43,680
Speaker 1: But yeah, embrace anarchy. Well, I'm Robert Evans, this is

3060
02:40:43,720 --> 02:40:46,840
Speaker 1: gonna podcast. And uh and remember as we sail out,

3061
02:40:47,160 --> 02:40:49,600
Speaker 1: there's a reason the episode talking about guns came after

3062
02:40:49,680 --> 02:41:02,720
Speaker 1: the episodes talking about storing and growing food. When P. T.

3063
02:41:02,840 --> 02:41:05,800
Speaker 1: Barnum's Great American Museum burned to the ground in eighteen

3064
02:41:05,879 --> 02:41:09,119
Speaker 1: sixty five, what rose from its ashes would change the world.

3065
02:41:09,879 --> 02:41:13,400
Speaker 1: Welcome to Grim and Mild presents an ongoing journey into

3066
02:41:13,480 --> 02:41:17,959
Speaker 1: the strange, the unusual, and the fascinating. For our inaugural season,

3067
02:41:18,000 --> 02:41:20,400
Speaker 1: will be giving you a backstage tour of the always

3068
02:41:20,480 --> 02:41:25,240
Speaker 1: complex and often misunderstood cultural artifact that is the American

3069
02:41:25,320 --> 02:41:28,040
Speaker 1: Side Show. So come along as we visit the shadowy

3070
02:41:28,160 --> 02:41:30,800
Speaker 1: corners of the stage and learn about the people who

3071
02:41:30,879 --> 02:41:32,960
Speaker 1: were at the center of it all, in a place

3072
02:41:33,040 --> 02:41:36,840
Speaker 1: where spectacle was king. We will soon discover there's always

3073
02:41:36,920 --> 02:41:39,879
Speaker 1: more to the story than meets the eye. So step

3074
02:41:40,000 --> 02:41:43,080
Speaker 1: right up and get in line. Listen to Grim and

3075
02:41:43,160 --> 02:41:46,480
Speaker 1: Mild Presents now on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

3076
02:41:46,640 --> 02:41:50,200
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. Learn more over at

3077
02:41:50,240 --> 02:41:55,600
Speaker 1: Grim and Mild dot com slash Presents. I'm Tanya sam

3078
02:41:55,760 --> 02:41:58,640
Speaker 1: post of the Money Moves Podcast powered by Greenwood. This

3079
02:41:58,879 --> 02:42:01,200
Speaker 1: daily podcast will help give you the keys to the

3080
02:42:01,280 --> 02:42:05,120
Speaker 1: Kingdom of financial stability, wealth and abundance. With celebrity guests

3081
02:42:05,160 --> 02:42:09,119
Speaker 1: like Rick Ross, Amanda Sells, Angela Ye, Roland, Martin, JB. Smooth,

3082
02:42:09,160 --> 02:42:11,320
Speaker 1: and Terrell Owens. Tune in to learn how to turn

3083
02:42:11,440 --> 02:42:17,760
Speaker 1: liabilities into assets and make your money moves. Subscribe to

3084
02:42:17,840 --> 02:42:20,040
Speaker 1: The Money Moves Podcast powered by Greenland on the I

3085
02:42:20,200 --> 02:42:23,120
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts, and

3086
02:42:23,240 --> 02:42:31,640
Speaker 1: make sure you leave a review. Welcome back to the

3087
02:42:32,840 --> 02:42:35,720
Speaker 1: It could Happen here. Yeah, that's the podcast we're doing

3088
02:42:35,840 --> 02:42:38,520
Speaker 1: right now. It's a podcast about how things are kind

3089
02:42:38,520 --> 02:42:41,000
Speaker 1: of falling apart, but maybe they don't need to, or

3090
02:42:41,000 --> 02:42:43,280
Speaker 1: at least not as much as they have. Then I'm

3091
02:42:43,400 --> 02:42:48,119
Speaker 1: Robert Evans with me as often is my co host Garrison.

3092
02:42:48,280 --> 02:42:53,160
Speaker 1: Davis Garrison, UM say something inciting to the audience. I'm

3093
02:42:53,200 --> 02:42:55,920
Speaker 1: on my second cup of coffee. Yeah, because it is.

3094
02:42:56,000 --> 02:42:57,960
Speaker 1: It is the early morning for you, by which I

3095
02:42:58,000 --> 02:43:02,320
Speaker 1: mean to eleven in the afternoon. UM, also with us today.

3096
02:43:02,400 --> 02:43:07,039
Speaker 1: Our guest for this episode is David van Dooson. Uh. David,

3097
02:43:07,520 --> 02:43:10,480
Speaker 1: you are the president of the State Labor Council for

3098
02:43:10,560 --> 02:43:13,760
Speaker 1: the Vermont a f l c I O and there's

3099
02:43:13,879 --> 02:43:16,200
Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff that's interesting about your organization. Will

3100
02:43:16,240 --> 02:43:18,040
Speaker 1: dig into it in more detail in a second, but

3101
02:43:18,120 --> 02:43:19,680
Speaker 1: first I just want to say hello and thank you

3102
02:43:19,720 --> 02:43:24,160
Speaker 1: for being on the shower now, David, the big thing,

3103
02:43:24,240 --> 02:43:26,320
Speaker 1: I mean, the Vermont a f l c I has

3104
02:43:26,360 --> 02:43:28,560
Speaker 1: been in the news a couple of times recently. The

3105
02:43:28,600 --> 02:43:31,840
Speaker 1: most recent one is y'all issued a statement making you

3106
02:43:32,400 --> 02:43:35,040
Speaker 1: the coverage I've seen has said the first labor organization

3107
02:43:35,080 --> 02:43:38,680
Speaker 1: in the US to like support gun rights. I mean

3108
02:43:39,000 --> 02:43:40,560
Speaker 1: like as is stated in a lot of the stuff

3109
02:43:40,560 --> 02:43:42,760
Speaker 1: you've put out, like Blair Mountain. There's a long history

3110
02:43:42,840 --> 02:43:46,720
Speaker 1: of labor organizations making use of the Second Amendment. But UM,

3111
02:43:47,520 --> 02:43:50,680
Speaker 1: I certainly haven't heard of a labor organization stating at

3112
02:43:50,720 --> 02:43:53,280
Speaker 1: the way you did, which is basically the case you've made,

3113
02:43:53,360 --> 02:43:58,000
Speaker 1: is because far right fascist organizations are so heavily armed

3114
02:43:58,040 --> 02:44:00,720
Speaker 1: and any gut all of the gun control policies being

3115
02:44:00,760 --> 02:44:04,959
Speaker 1: heavily debated, at least among liberals, are likely to ignore

3116
02:44:05,080 --> 02:44:08,520
Speaker 1: those people while restricting the ability of working class and

3117
02:44:08,560 --> 02:44:12,480
Speaker 1: particularly marginalized people to arm themselves. Um, you do not

3118
02:44:12,680 --> 02:44:15,959
Speaker 1: support those regulations because you support the rights of those

3119
02:44:15,959 --> 02:44:19,160
Speaker 1: groups to be able to defend themselves from fascists. That

3120
02:44:19,280 --> 02:44:22,440
Speaker 1: more or less correct. Well, Look, we believe in the

3121
02:44:22,600 --> 02:44:28,040
Speaker 1: right of the people to defend themselves, but our policies,

3122
02:44:28,080 --> 02:44:31,640
Speaker 1: including that one, are not adopted by the elected leadership,

3123
02:44:31,800 --> 02:44:35,600
Speaker 1: including myself. They're adopted by our members. We believe very

3124
02:44:35,720 --> 02:44:40,240
Speaker 1: firmly and democracy participaty democracy. So with issues like this,

3125
02:44:40,360 --> 02:44:42,920
Speaker 1: we're happy to bring into our convention, which we recently did,

3126
02:44:43,600 --> 02:44:47,680
Speaker 1: and facilitate a full debate on the issue. So that's

3127
02:44:47,680 --> 02:44:50,119
Speaker 1: exactly what we did. We talked about it, our rank

3128
02:44:50,200 --> 02:44:53,080
Speaker 1: and file members talked about it. They made amendments, They

3129
02:44:53,200 --> 02:44:57,800
Speaker 1: debated passionately different sides of the issue in a respectful way,

3130
02:44:58,440 --> 02:45:01,840
Speaker 1: in a productive way. A number of amendments were made,

3131
02:45:01,920 --> 02:45:05,240
Speaker 1: that were adopted, and then ultimately the resolution was passed

3132
02:45:05,320 --> 02:45:08,959
Speaker 1: with over a two thirds majority of our recopil delegance

3133
02:45:09,000 --> 02:45:12,040
Speaker 1: in favor. So that's where we are right now. Yeah,

3134
02:45:12,120 --> 02:45:15,199
Speaker 1: I've read a bit about this, including you know, there's

3135
02:45:15,240 --> 02:45:17,880
Speaker 1: been some critiques from a representative from the a f T,

3136
02:45:18,080 --> 02:45:21,000
Speaker 1: which is the local teachers union. But there was also

3137
02:45:21,040 --> 02:45:22,600
Speaker 1: a member of the Vermont a f l C i

3138
02:45:22,720 --> 02:45:25,920
Speaker 1: oh who essentially stated, like, hey, I didn't actually agree

3139
02:45:26,000 --> 02:45:28,360
Speaker 1: with this amendment but or with this resolution, but it

3140
02:45:28,480 --> 02:45:32,039
Speaker 1: was made democratically, and like I I support the process

3141
02:45:32,120 --> 02:45:33,520
Speaker 1: by which it was done, which is one of the

3142
02:45:33,600 --> 02:45:36,120
Speaker 1: things I think is it is so interesting here that

3143
02:45:36,200 --> 02:45:39,120
Speaker 1: this isn't like um UM a kind of a group

3144
02:45:39,160 --> 02:45:42,560
Speaker 1: of activists at the top making declaration declarations. This is

3145
02:45:42,560 --> 02:45:47,400
Speaker 1: an organization that is really um dedicated itself increasingly to

3146
02:45:48,160 --> 02:45:50,200
Speaker 1: I think a kind of progressive ism that we we

3147
02:45:50,320 --> 02:45:52,440
Speaker 1: haven't really seen in an organized way, and a lot

3148
02:45:52,520 --> 02:45:56,640
Speaker 1: of the American labor movement until recently. Well, when you're

3149
02:45:56,640 --> 02:45:59,360
Speaker 1: talking about democracy in the labor I mean we could

3150
02:45:59,400 --> 02:46:02,360
Speaker 1: be just as well here about democracies in society as such.

3151
02:46:03,720 --> 02:46:07,480
Speaker 1: The fact is is that organized labor today is not

3152
02:46:07,680 --> 02:46:10,600
Speaker 1: particularly democratic, and we're looking to change that, and our

3153
02:46:10,680 --> 02:46:13,520
Speaker 1: world is not particularly democratic now. The vision that we

3154
02:46:13,680 --> 02:46:17,959
Speaker 1: hold our slate are progressive slate called United, is one

3155
02:46:18,040 --> 02:46:22,200
Speaker 1: where we increase the means for direct producerary democracy, both

3156
02:46:22,280 --> 02:46:25,680
Speaker 1: within labor and within our society. So of course we're

3157
02:46:25,680 --> 02:46:27,200
Speaker 1: going to go to our members and our rank and

3158
02:46:27,320 --> 02:46:29,640
Speaker 1: file and ask them to debate the issues of our

3159
02:46:29,760 --> 02:46:32,960
Speaker 1: day and ultimately to make a decision on these major

3160
02:46:33,040 --> 02:46:37,440
Speaker 1: political and social issues. This was one we again, we

3161
02:46:37,600 --> 02:46:40,400
Speaker 1: do believe that people need to have a right, the

3162
02:46:40,440 --> 02:46:42,920
Speaker 1: working class needs have a right to defend itself, and

3163
02:46:43,080 --> 02:46:46,640
Speaker 1: we can't bury our head in the stand. Anybody that's

3164
02:46:46,680 --> 02:46:49,400
Speaker 1: even followed a little bit of the news lately will

3165
02:46:49,480 --> 02:46:56,400
Speaker 1: know that between November up until late January, we were

3166
02:46:56,640 --> 02:47:01,680
Speaker 1: one general shy of a coup in this country, in

3167
02:47:01,840 --> 02:47:05,280
Speaker 1: the upside down world that we're now living in. It

3168
02:47:05,440 --> 02:47:07,400
Speaker 1: was because of the joint chiefs of Staff and the

3169
02:47:07,440 --> 02:47:09,840
Speaker 1: head of the c i A not supporting a coup

3170
02:47:10,520 --> 02:47:14,200
Speaker 1: that a neo fascist cou didn't totally in fold materialized

3171
02:47:14,240 --> 02:47:16,840
Speaker 1: in a more mature form. Let that sink inform it

3172
02:47:17,200 --> 02:47:20,240
Speaker 1: our democracy, or the vestiges of the democracy we have

3173
02:47:20,360 --> 02:47:25,120
Speaker 1: in the United States right now is precarious. Uh. They

3174
02:47:25,360 --> 02:47:28,119
Speaker 1: just because they've been there for two hundred years doesn't

3175
02:47:28,120 --> 02:47:30,800
Speaker 1: mean they're gonna be there tomorrow. The new playbook from

3176
02:47:31,200 --> 02:47:35,720
Speaker 1: an increasingly far right Republican Party is to limit as

3177
02:47:35,879 --> 02:47:39,240
Speaker 1: much as they possibly could let people's right to vote

3178
02:47:39,520 --> 02:47:41,680
Speaker 1: and to participate in the political process. We see this

3179
02:47:41,760 --> 02:47:44,920
Speaker 1: happening in Texas, We see this happening in Georgia. We

3180
02:47:44,959 --> 02:47:48,200
Speaker 1: see this happening in Florida. We see this happening in Red. Uh.

3181
02:47:48,560 --> 02:47:51,200
Speaker 1: I shouldn't say red, but I should say Republican states

3182
02:47:51,280 --> 02:47:56,680
Speaker 1: all throughout the US. So these are dangerous, dangerous times, right,

3183
02:47:57,080 --> 02:48:00,600
Speaker 1: so dangerous that our top generals were trying to decide

3184
02:48:00,640 --> 02:48:04,400
Speaker 1: what their position would be and make plans in case

3185
02:48:05,280 --> 02:48:08,040
Speaker 1: a coup, a full encoup, not just a hint of

3186
02:48:08,080 --> 02:48:11,440
Speaker 1: a coup, came into being within the last year of

3187
02:48:11,560 --> 02:48:15,600
Speaker 1: our republic. Now, given those realities and giving the rise

3188
02:48:15,680 --> 02:48:18,920
Speaker 1: of the far right, given that our former president Donald

3189
02:48:18,959 --> 02:48:22,520
Speaker 1: Trump told the neo fascist Proud Boys to stand what

3190
02:48:22,640 --> 02:48:26,000
Speaker 1: did you say, stand back and stand by? Yeah, that's right.

3191
02:48:27,000 --> 02:48:30,160
Speaker 1: And now at least they claimed that forty thousand members

3192
02:48:30,200 --> 02:48:33,640
Speaker 1: around the United States and they are armed. Uh, you know,

3193
02:48:33,760 --> 02:48:36,720
Speaker 1: we can't just rest in our laurelds and and pretend

3194
02:48:37,040 --> 02:48:39,480
Speaker 1: that the state as such is going to keep us safe.

3195
02:48:40,080 --> 02:48:44,720
Speaker 1: So it seems prudent and reasonable for us to have

3196
02:48:44,840 --> 02:48:48,400
Speaker 1: taken the action and say we defend our constitutional right

3197
02:48:49,320 --> 02:48:53,840
Speaker 1: to bear arms as intended to defend our communities. They

3198
02:48:53,920 --> 02:48:56,800
Speaker 1: defend our unions, to defend the working class. And one

3199
02:48:56,840 --> 02:48:58,800
Speaker 1: of the things that because we were just talking about

3200
02:48:58,840 --> 02:49:03,119
Speaker 1: the the coup that very nearly got pulled off your organization,

3201
02:49:03,200 --> 02:49:05,680
Speaker 1: at least in UH I believe it was right after

3202
02:49:05,800 --> 02:49:09,160
Speaker 1: the election, issued a statement that if the president illegally

3203
02:49:09,920 --> 02:49:12,879
Speaker 1: attempted to stay in power, the former president, you would

3204
02:49:13,160 --> 02:49:16,119
Speaker 1: participate in an attempt to help organize a general strike.

3205
02:49:16,240 --> 02:49:18,960
Speaker 1: Now that's something we talk about a lot on this show.

3206
02:49:19,040 --> 02:49:21,480
Speaker 1: We're big believers in the potential of a general strike.

3207
02:49:21,560 --> 02:49:25,960
Speaker 1: Were also big believers that the kind of general strike

3208
02:49:26,080 --> 02:49:28,600
Speaker 1: that we need to i don't know, potentially get climate

3209
02:49:28,680 --> 02:49:31,120
Speaker 1: justice and a number of other major things is an

3210
02:49:31,200 --> 02:49:33,640
Speaker 1: undertaking on par with the space race. You know, you're

3211
02:49:33,640 --> 02:49:37,440
Speaker 1: talking about an enormous task. I'm really interested in picking

3212
02:49:37,480 --> 02:49:41,000
Speaker 1: your brain on when we talk about a national general strike,

3213
02:49:41,520 --> 02:49:44,360
Speaker 1: what is the kind of infrastructure that's actually necessary to

3214
02:49:44,440 --> 02:49:46,240
Speaker 1: make something like that feasible, because there's a lot of

3215
02:49:46,280 --> 02:49:48,320
Speaker 1: talk on like Twitter and Facebook of like, let's just

3216
02:49:48,360 --> 02:49:51,360
Speaker 1: do a general strike on this day in October. I

3217
02:49:53,000 --> 02:49:55,680
Speaker 1: six months doesn't go by, as President c I O

3218
02:49:55,920 --> 02:49:58,320
Speaker 1: ver month where I don't left this group of some

3219
02:49:58,480 --> 02:50:01,120
Speaker 1: kind of contact with me to endorse their general strike, right,

3220
02:50:01,720 --> 02:50:04,600
Speaker 1: going to shut down on data X And it's yet

3221
02:50:04,640 --> 02:50:07,760
Speaker 1: to happen, at least in our country. So that's a

3222
02:50:07,800 --> 02:50:12,840
Speaker 1: great question. A couple of things. When we voted, and

3223
02:50:12,920 --> 02:50:15,400
Speaker 1: again this wasn't a decision of myself and the leadership.

3224
02:50:15,480 --> 02:50:17,640
Speaker 1: This was a decision we went back to the rank

3225
02:50:17,680 --> 02:50:20,160
Speaker 1: and file with to our to one of our conventions

3226
02:50:21,879 --> 02:50:25,200
Speaker 1: of our delegates, after our long debate, voted to authorize

3227
02:50:25,240 --> 02:50:28,040
Speaker 1: the elected deecutive Board to call for a general strike

3228
02:50:28,200 --> 02:50:30,040
Speaker 1: in the event of a coup, in the event that

3229
02:50:30,080 --> 02:50:34,560
Speaker 1: there wasn't transfer power on January as the constitution requires.

3230
02:50:35,720 --> 02:50:40,040
Speaker 1: It was our feeling that in that very specific space

3231
02:50:40,120 --> 02:50:45,160
Speaker 1: and time, in that very specific political climate, um we

3232
02:50:45,360 --> 02:50:48,560
Speaker 1: would be able to call for such a strike and

3233
02:50:48,879 --> 02:50:51,120
Speaker 1: with a serious amount of work and a serious amount

3234
02:50:51,120 --> 02:50:53,680
Speaker 1: of organizing, pull that off and make that happen, and

3235
02:50:53,760 --> 02:50:55,440
Speaker 1: the thought was if we could do it in Vermont

3236
02:50:55,480 --> 02:50:58,040
Speaker 1: because the call was a further Mont Channel strike, then

3237
02:50:58,120 --> 02:51:00,800
Speaker 1: it could spread to other states, which would be absolutely

3238
02:51:00,920 --> 02:51:05,360
Speaker 1: necessary if there was if our country descended into a

3239
02:51:05,440 --> 02:51:09,960
Speaker 1: fascist dictatorship of some sort. But generally speaking, when we

3240
02:51:10,040 --> 02:51:12,119
Speaker 1: talk about climate issues, when we talk about the fact

3241
02:51:12,200 --> 02:51:14,840
Speaker 1: that millions of Americans don't have healthcare or aren't paid

3242
02:51:14,959 --> 02:51:17,680
Speaker 1: liv wages, all of these issues are at least these

3243
02:51:17,760 --> 02:51:21,240
Speaker 1: issues together certainly warrant us looking at things like a

3244
02:51:21,320 --> 02:51:23,600
Speaker 1: general strike, but they're a bit it's a bit phine

3245
02:51:23,680 --> 02:51:26,360
Speaker 1: this guide to think that, hey, we got ten grade

3246
02:51:26,400 --> 02:51:28,760
Speaker 1: issues that we want to see progress on, We're gonna

3247
02:51:28,800 --> 02:51:30,640
Speaker 1: call for our strike and is going to happen. The

3248
02:51:30,760 --> 02:51:34,240
Speaker 1: infrastructure is not there, nor is the political will within

3249
02:51:34,320 --> 02:51:37,320
Speaker 1: the large labor bodies at this praised present time. Without

3250
02:51:37,400 --> 02:51:40,320
Speaker 1: participation from organized labor, first of all, I don't think

3251
02:51:40,360 --> 02:51:42,680
Speaker 1: anything is going to happen. So you're gonna have to

3252
02:51:42,720 --> 02:51:45,320
Speaker 1: achieve buy in a certain level. But even with buying

3253
02:51:45,520 --> 02:51:49,800
Speaker 1: from key leaders or even a localized shop stewards, you

3254
02:51:49,920 --> 02:51:52,920
Speaker 1: still need to have infrastructure in place. So one of

3255
02:51:53,000 --> 02:51:55,800
Speaker 1: the things that lacks in the a f l c

3256
02:51:55,879 --> 02:51:58,120
Speaker 1: I O as a national organization. We don't have an

3257
02:51:58,160 --> 02:52:02,720
Speaker 1: effective network of local union contacts in every shop, at

3258
02:52:02,800 --> 02:52:06,600
Speaker 1: every shift, in every factory that's represented by a union,

3259
02:52:06,720 --> 02:52:10,400
Speaker 1: let alone the majority of workplaces at this point that

3260
02:52:10,480 --> 02:52:14,520
Speaker 1: aren't unionized. So what our top priority is as far

3261
02:52:14,600 --> 02:52:16,720
Speaker 1: as the vermontney a fl Sea goes over the next

3262
02:52:16,800 --> 02:52:20,400
Speaker 1: two years, is to build a network of local union

3263
02:52:20,520 --> 02:52:23,880
Speaker 1: contacts in every single shop and every single shift that

3264
02:52:23,959 --> 02:52:26,720
Speaker 1: we represent folks here in Vermont. So we see this

3265
02:52:26,879 --> 02:52:30,200
Speaker 1: as a way to increase communication. Without communication, you're not

3266
02:52:30,240 --> 02:52:32,680
Speaker 1: going to be able to pull off mass mobilizations and

3267
02:52:32,800 --> 02:52:34,520
Speaker 1: what and also you're not going to be able to

3268
02:52:34,959 --> 02:52:38,680
Speaker 1: conduct mass education on issues X, Y or Z. So

3269
02:52:39,320 --> 02:52:41,640
Speaker 1: over a period of two years, we're looking to build

3270
02:52:41,720 --> 02:52:44,800
Speaker 1: this network that would function not as a one way

3271
02:52:45,080 --> 02:52:48,600
Speaker 1: means of communication, but almost a two or three way.

3272
02:52:48,720 --> 02:52:50,600
Speaker 1: Imagine that this is a way for the rank and

3273
02:52:50,640 --> 02:52:53,320
Speaker 1: file to communicate up to the leaders. This is a

3274
02:52:53,400 --> 02:52:56,000
Speaker 1: way for the leadership to communicate down to the ranks,

3275
02:52:56,080 --> 02:52:58,120
Speaker 1: I mean down to the lunch room level of what

3276
02:52:58,240 --> 02:53:01,000
Speaker 1: it means to be in a union shop. And also

3277
02:53:01,760 --> 02:53:04,560
Speaker 1: ideally it's going to be a way for local union

3278
02:53:04,800 --> 02:53:09,360
Speaker 1: leaders to horizontally communicate with each other. With such a

3279
02:53:09,400 --> 02:53:13,000
Speaker 1: structure in place on a grand scale, on a state scale,

3280
02:53:13,080 --> 02:53:16,800
Speaker 1: on a federal scale, then things like organized general strikes

3281
02:53:17,000 --> 02:53:20,760
Speaker 1: over political issues and social issues become feasible. And even

3282
02:53:20,800 --> 02:53:23,160
Speaker 1: when they're feasible, though, then we still have the political

3283
02:53:23,280 --> 02:53:26,760
Speaker 1: question of you know, will they be supported by the internationals,

3284
02:53:26,840 --> 02:53:29,120
Speaker 1: will they be supported by the executive board of the

3285
02:53:29,200 --> 02:53:32,040
Speaker 1: National a f C AL And that's a huge conversation,

3286
02:53:32,280 --> 02:53:34,800
Speaker 1: you know. So, Yeah, it's interesting to be hearing your

3287
02:53:34,800 --> 02:53:37,800
Speaker 1: perspective on this because my experience with kind of activism

3288
02:53:38,080 --> 02:53:41,359
Speaker 1: UM has been much more of kind of the decentralized

3289
02:53:41,440 --> 02:53:45,039
Speaker 1: and kind of much more recent groups, you know, since occupy. UM,

3290
02:53:45,200 --> 02:53:47,560
Speaker 1: you're dealing with these these structures that in a lot

3291
02:53:47,600 --> 02:53:49,000
Speaker 1: of cases there I mean, the A f l C

3292
02:53:49,120 --> 02:53:51,400
Speaker 1: I O goes back like what like a century, right

3293
02:53:51,920 --> 02:53:55,280
Speaker 1: one one way or the other. Yeah, you know, I think, UM,

3294
02:53:55,879 --> 02:53:59,400
Speaker 1: because of kind of how shall I say, online, a

3295
02:53:59,480 --> 02:54:01,440
Speaker 1: lot of the discussion about this stuff seems to be

3296
02:54:02,080 --> 02:54:04,600
Speaker 1: organized labor often gets left out. And one of the

3297
02:54:04,680 --> 02:54:06,800
Speaker 1: things that I think is most important when talking about

3298
02:54:07,440 --> 02:54:10,600
Speaker 1: the value that organized labor has in any kind of

3299
02:54:10,640 --> 02:54:13,120
Speaker 1: discussion if a general strike is what happened during the

3300
02:54:14,200 --> 02:54:17,880
Speaker 1: during the budget uh negotiations or whatever you want to

3301
02:54:17,879 --> 02:54:20,800
Speaker 1: call them in twenty nineteen where you you had UM

3302
02:54:21,040 --> 02:54:25,000
Speaker 1: airline workers threatening a general strike that effectively brought it

3303
02:54:25,080 --> 02:54:28,800
Speaker 1: into a president's saber rattling over over the budget like

3304
02:54:28,920 --> 02:54:32,920
Speaker 1: it's it's president Sarah Nelson. Yeah, headlines over that and

3305
02:54:32,959 --> 02:54:37,120
Speaker 1: that was the right thing to do, absolutely her and

3306
02:54:37,240 --> 02:54:39,880
Speaker 1: would love to sear a a stronger positional leadership the

3307
02:54:40,000 --> 02:54:43,040
Speaker 1: national level. Well, I'm interested because I see a lot

3308
02:54:43,120 --> 02:54:46,000
Speaker 1: of potential in Obviously organized labor has had a lot

3309
02:54:46,000 --> 02:54:49,760
Speaker 1: of problems, particularly in the last you know, during my lifetime, UM,

3310
02:54:49,840 --> 02:54:51,720
Speaker 1: And I think part of it is what you said earlier,

3311
02:54:51,800 --> 02:54:54,400
Speaker 1: there's it's not as democratic as it should be at

3312
02:54:54,480 --> 02:54:59,039
Speaker 1: most levels. UM. What you guys have done with United

3313
02:54:59,240 --> 02:55:03,600
Speaker 1: is attempting to reform that, you know within Vermont. I'm wondering, first,

3314
02:55:04,120 --> 02:55:06,080
Speaker 1: how did that kind of come about? You know, twenty

3315
02:55:06,200 --> 02:55:08,760
Speaker 1: nineteen is when you first got got put into office,

3316
02:55:08,800 --> 02:55:10,600
Speaker 1: when when the United State got put in the to

3317
02:55:10,680 --> 02:55:13,240
Speaker 1: the office in Vermont? What was kind of the back

3318
02:55:13,360 --> 02:55:15,840
Speaker 1: story to that? And then my second question is kind

3319
02:55:15,879 --> 02:55:18,480
Speaker 1: of what do you see as necessary to like what

3320
02:55:18,640 --> 02:55:20,720
Speaker 1: what what's what's the fight as you see it to

3321
02:55:20,840 --> 02:55:24,160
Speaker 1: get stuff like that done on a larger scale around

3322
02:55:24,160 --> 02:55:28,800
Speaker 1: the country. So our story in Vermont is probably a

3323
02:55:28,959 --> 02:55:32,400
Speaker 1: lot like the story of organized labor in many different

3324
02:55:32,440 --> 02:55:37,240
Speaker 1: places are starting point. So in two thousand and seventeen,

3325
02:55:37,760 --> 02:55:42,160
Speaker 1: not that long ago, ah, we had a convention with

3326
02:55:42,360 --> 02:55:45,840
Speaker 1: something like twenty or twenty five delegates there. Imagine that

3327
02:55:45,920 --> 02:55:49,240
Speaker 1: twenty delegates representing T at the time ten thousand grown

3328
02:55:49,280 --> 02:55:53,160
Speaker 1: since but ten thousand members. That's called the democracy. So

3329
02:55:54,040 --> 02:55:57,720
Speaker 1: there was a problem, an existential problem. Now I come

3330
02:55:57,760 --> 02:56:00,920
Speaker 1: out of Asked Me Local Me four thirteen in the

3331
02:56:00,959 --> 02:56:04,800
Speaker 1: northeast Kingdom of Vermont. So when I got together with

3332
02:56:04,879 --> 02:56:07,960
Speaker 1: a number of other leaders from different unions, different Asked

3333
02:56:08,000 --> 02:56:11,200
Speaker 1: Me locals, but also United Academics is part of a

3334
02:56:11,360 --> 02:56:15,520
Speaker 1: f T the building trades. A number of folks. Uh,

3335
02:56:15,920 --> 02:56:18,600
Speaker 1: there was a general recognition at the leadership level that

3336
02:56:18,720 --> 02:56:22,120
Speaker 1: something was very wrong. Member participation was weakest can be,

3337
02:56:22,440 --> 02:56:26,120
Speaker 1: and things had to change. And we continually as an organization,

3338
02:56:27,040 --> 02:56:31,160
Speaker 1: you know, with some exceptions, hitch our wagon to the

3339
02:56:31,240 --> 02:56:34,840
Speaker 1: shortcomings that are the Democratic Party. So all of these

3340
02:56:34,879 --> 02:56:41,040
Speaker 1: things together led to inactivity, apathy, and lack of democracy.

3341
02:56:42,000 --> 02:56:44,800
Speaker 1: So we started going around we started talking with workers,

3342
02:56:44,920 --> 02:56:47,400
Speaker 1: we started talking with shops across the state, and one

3343
02:56:47,440 --> 02:56:49,920
Speaker 1: of the first things that was striking. People would say

3344
02:56:50,040 --> 02:56:51,800
Speaker 1: they would know what union they're n be a A

3345
02:56:51,959 --> 02:56:55,560
Speaker 1: PWU or asking me or whatever it was. But we'd say, listen,

3346
02:56:55,760 --> 02:56:58,680
Speaker 1: we're talking. We're thinking about running a slate progressive slave

3347
02:56:58,760 --> 02:57:00,640
Speaker 1: for office with to take the a f l c

3348
02:57:00,720 --> 02:57:02,840
Speaker 1: I O in a new direction. The next thing they

3349
02:57:02,840 --> 02:57:04,280
Speaker 1: would say, is, what's the a f l C I

3350
02:57:06,000 --> 02:57:09,680
Speaker 1: think about that? Right, workers involved, some of which were

3351
02:57:09,760 --> 02:57:12,920
Speaker 1: union stewarts and their locals didn't even know what the

3352
02:57:13,000 --> 02:57:15,760
Speaker 1: a f l c I O was. So that was

3353
02:57:15,840 --> 02:57:19,720
Speaker 1: our starting point. It was an excellent crisis of labor.

3354
02:57:20,640 --> 02:57:23,880
Speaker 1: And mind you, during these what I would call some

3355
02:57:24,080 --> 02:57:29,000
Speaker 1: dark periods, we would often endorse a hundred candidates for

3356
02:57:29,120 --> 02:57:33,440
Speaker 1: state House, nearly all of which being Democrats, and then

3357
02:57:33,640 --> 02:57:36,440
Speaker 1: we they would win. They would win their elections, like

3358
02:57:36,680 --> 02:57:40,800
Speaker 1: largely our candidates win, and then we get nothing in

3359
02:57:40,879 --> 02:57:43,200
Speaker 1: the state House. Right, there would be no labor bill,

3360
02:57:43,240 --> 02:57:46,240
Speaker 1: there'd be no advancement of card check. Differently, the organized

3361
02:57:46,280 --> 02:57:49,680
Speaker 1: labor and yet we keep repeating the same mistake year

3362
02:57:49,720 --> 02:57:52,280
Speaker 1: and year out and not figure out that something was wrong.

3363
02:57:52,879 --> 02:57:56,359
Speaker 1: So when we formed the United State as a coalition

3364
02:57:56,440 --> 02:57:58,480
Speaker 1: of a number of different unions to recognize it was

3365
02:57:58,560 --> 02:58:01,480
Speaker 1: time for change, we really brought the discussion into the

3366
02:58:01,560 --> 02:58:05,120
Speaker 1: grassroots level. We developed a ten point program we called

3367
02:58:05,200 --> 02:58:07,680
Speaker 1: our little read book. It's now the policy and the

3368
02:58:08,400 --> 02:58:11,200
Speaker 1: platform of the Vermont f l c i A, and

3369
02:58:11,520 --> 02:58:14,360
Speaker 1: we ran an organized campaign based on that right at

3370
02:58:14,360 --> 02:58:18,560
Speaker 1: a very local level. And here we did all the

3371
02:58:18,680 --> 02:58:22,080
Speaker 1: things that you know you should be doing, the phone calls, emails,

3372
02:58:22,160 --> 02:58:24,680
Speaker 1: the shop visits, all of this and created a sense

3373
02:58:24,720 --> 02:58:28,800
Speaker 1: of excitement going into our two convention. Our two thousand

3374
02:58:28,920 --> 02:58:32,520
Speaker 1: nineteen convention with over if I recall, over a hundred

3375
02:58:32,560 --> 02:58:37,000
Speaker 1: and five delegates and alternates, was the largest convention we

3376
02:58:37,200 --> 02:58:40,440
Speaker 1: had up here in in something like thirty plus years.

3377
02:58:41,280 --> 02:58:44,280
Speaker 1: So that was an exciting atmosphere where something was going

3378
02:58:44,320 --> 02:58:46,959
Speaker 1: to be different and something was going to change right.

3379
02:58:47,560 --> 02:58:50,920
Speaker 1: So we swept. We essentially slept those elections. We want

3380
02:58:50,959 --> 02:58:53,360
Speaker 1: all the seats except for one. We had a follow

3381
02:58:53,480 --> 02:58:57,720
Speaker 1: up convention in two UM sorry election in two where

3382
02:58:57,800 --> 02:59:00,480
Speaker 1: we won every single seat, and then the last selection

3383
02:59:00,879 --> 02:59:04,600
Speaker 1: UM we won all seats except for one where one

3384
02:59:04,680 --> 02:59:07,280
Speaker 1: person who's a good, good person from the building trades

3385
02:59:08,600 --> 02:59:11,560
Speaker 1: ran but was not part of our state. So the

3386
02:59:11,640 --> 02:59:13,560
Speaker 1: real question is what have we done in the intern

3387
02:59:13,920 --> 02:59:16,040
Speaker 1: how are we changing that direction, and how are we

3388
02:59:16,200 --> 02:59:18,840
Speaker 1: changing trying to seek to change the capacity of labor,

3389
02:59:19,200 --> 02:59:21,440
Speaker 1: and what lessons does it add to the national room.

3390
02:59:21,560 --> 02:59:25,960
Speaker 1: I would suppose so on that for one of the

3391
02:59:26,040 --> 02:59:28,320
Speaker 1: first things we did is we took money out of

3392
02:59:28,360 --> 02:59:32,800
Speaker 1: our lobbying operation and put it into an organizing the department,

3393
02:59:32,920 --> 02:59:35,800
Speaker 1: whereby we would hire and we have hired on call

3394
02:59:35,959 --> 02:59:39,400
Speaker 1: organizers to assist our affiliates in either new organizing or

3395
02:59:39,480 --> 02:59:44,440
Speaker 1: internal organizing, therefore delivering an actual benefits to our affiliate unions. Now,

3396
02:59:44,520 --> 02:59:47,120
Speaker 1: mind you, we represent just about every sector of workers

3397
02:59:47,280 --> 02:59:52,320
Speaker 1: all across the state, but forever they very rarely got

3398
02:59:52,440 --> 02:59:57,760
Speaker 1: a concrete, measurable acts of solidarity from the Federation as such,

3399
02:59:57,920 --> 02:59:59,880
Speaker 1: right because all of a lot of too many of

3400
03:00:00,080 --> 03:00:03,160
Speaker 1: resources were put in belonging. And we also took a

3401
03:00:03,200 --> 03:00:07,920
Speaker 1: critical eye towards the Democratic Party and recently we've instead

3402
03:00:08,160 --> 03:00:12,920
Speaker 1: endorsed the Social Democratic Vermont Progressive Party slates and their

3403
03:00:13,000 --> 03:00:16,640
Speaker 1: runs for state House and state wide office. In many cases,

3404
03:00:17,240 --> 03:00:20,160
Speaker 1: so we've done a few things differently. We're continuing to

3405
03:00:20,200 --> 03:00:22,800
Speaker 1: do things differently. We've expanded the size of our executive

3406
03:00:22,840 --> 03:00:25,880
Speaker 1: board so you we elect more leaders now. We've more

3407
03:00:25,920 --> 03:00:28,400
Speaker 1: than double the size of the delegates afforded to each

3408
03:00:28,480 --> 03:00:30,920
Speaker 1: local so we could have more rank and foot file

3409
03:00:31,040 --> 03:00:35,520
Speaker 1: voices present when we're meeting at a convention. And we've

3410
03:00:35,600 --> 03:00:40,000
Speaker 1: taken a strong um social justice position where we think

3411
03:00:40,040 --> 03:00:43,600
Speaker 1: that organized labor must work very closely in an alliance,

3412
03:00:43,640 --> 03:00:47,320
Speaker 1: form alliances with groups like Migrant Justice or Black Perspective

3413
03:00:48,080 --> 03:00:52,800
Speaker 1: or environmental organizations like three fifty dot org. And we've

3414
03:00:52,879 --> 03:00:55,000
Speaker 1: done those things, worked on their issues where we have

3415
03:00:55,120 --> 03:00:57,400
Speaker 1: common interests, and we've asked them to support us on

3416
03:00:57,480 --> 03:01:01,160
Speaker 1: our issues where where they've I have some common interests.

3417
03:01:01,600 --> 03:01:03,760
Speaker 1: So those are things that are very different that the

3418
03:01:03,879 --> 03:01:06,080
Speaker 1: National a f l C is not doing. Other state

3419
03:01:06,520 --> 03:01:11,160
Speaker 1: labor federations largely aren't doing enough. And we're hoping now

3420
03:01:11,280 --> 03:01:16,040
Speaker 1: to build that out, and we're engaging conversations seeking to

3421
03:01:16,200 --> 03:01:20,320
Speaker 1: form a national progressive Caucus within the National ALC. I

3422
03:01:21,560 --> 03:01:23,959
Speaker 1: and I think that's so important when you talk about

3423
03:01:24,360 --> 03:01:27,440
Speaker 1: kind of on the national level for progressive number one

3424
03:01:27,520 --> 03:01:33,600
Speaker 1: to not not continually kind of reflectively support the Democratic

3425
03:01:33,680 --> 03:01:37,320
Speaker 1: Party when the Democratics parties is failing progressives, which you know,

3426
03:01:37,440 --> 03:01:39,680
Speaker 1: we have a perfect case study right now in Congress

3427
03:01:39,840 --> 03:01:44,280
Speaker 1: with the the Reconciliation Bill. UM. It often does seem

3428
03:01:44,400 --> 03:01:49,280
Speaker 1: like such an insurmountable task just because the inability, like

3429
03:01:49,400 --> 03:01:52,080
Speaker 1: a bill, the three point five trillion dollar infrastructure bill,

3430
03:01:52,160 --> 03:01:55,520
Speaker 1: is so widely supported by Americans, but it just keeps

3431
03:01:55,600 --> 03:01:59,240
Speaker 1: coming down to this tiny number of folks with you know,

3432
03:01:59,640 --> 03:02:03,520
Speaker 1: finding anential interests in donors um, who are who are

3433
03:02:03,600 --> 03:02:07,360
Speaker 1: pushing against something that's widely supported. And I feel um

3434
03:02:07,800 --> 03:02:11,280
Speaker 1: optimistic when I look at state organizations like what y'all

3435
03:02:11,320 --> 03:02:13,960
Speaker 1: are doing and the fact that I can see something building,

3436
03:02:14,480 --> 03:02:17,520
Speaker 1: but I also does it is such a titanic task

3437
03:02:17,680 --> 03:02:20,320
Speaker 1: to imagine translating that on a national scale in a

3438
03:02:20,360 --> 03:02:22,840
Speaker 1: way that actually gets us the things that you know,

3439
03:02:22,959 --> 03:02:25,280
Speaker 1: we we really can't wait for when you're talking about

3440
03:02:25,320 --> 03:02:27,520
Speaker 1: some of this infrastructure stuff, when you're talking about healthcare,

3441
03:02:27,560 --> 03:02:30,560
Speaker 1: when you're talking about climate justice, Like, I do feel

3442
03:02:30,560 --> 03:02:33,080
Speaker 1: the clock ticking um, and I'm wondering what you see

3443
03:02:33,120 --> 03:02:37,080
Speaker 1: as the hope on the national scale for actually putting

3444
03:02:37,160 --> 03:02:41,920
Speaker 1: some muscle behind the progressive movement. Well, look, it's not

3445
03:02:42,160 --> 03:02:45,320
Speaker 1: just the the issues of the Infrastructure Bill and the

3446
03:02:45,400 --> 03:02:49,440
Speaker 1: budget bill. It's also the Proact right, the bill that

3447
03:02:49,640 --> 03:02:53,480
Speaker 1: is language in the Senate. And let's not lose track

3448
03:02:53,520 --> 03:02:58,160
Speaker 1: of the fact that those efforts are all stalling and

3449
03:02:58,400 --> 03:03:01,959
Speaker 1: likely very likely to fail. And I hope they don't

3450
03:03:02,760 --> 03:03:06,320
Speaker 1: because of Democrats, because the Democratic Party is not united.

3451
03:03:06,360 --> 03:03:08,160
Speaker 1: They ran on a platform saying they were going to

3452
03:03:08,280 --> 03:03:10,480
Speaker 1: do X, Y and Z, and now when they're in

3453
03:03:10,560 --> 03:03:12,440
Speaker 1: a position to carry it out, they're not going to

3454
03:03:12,560 --> 03:03:16,400
Speaker 1: do it. And Joe Manchin, uh far as I'm concerned,

3455
03:03:16,600 --> 03:03:18,800
Speaker 1: UH call him a class trader, but I don't think

3456
03:03:18,840 --> 03:03:22,119
Speaker 1: he's ever was part of the working class. He claims

3457
03:03:22,200 --> 03:03:24,480
Speaker 1: to support the Proact, but in the same breath he

3458
03:03:24,720 --> 03:03:26,959
Speaker 1: he won't get rid of the filibuster. So, I mean,

3459
03:03:27,040 --> 03:03:29,840
Speaker 1: that's absolute bullshit as far as I'm concerned. So how

3460
03:03:29,879 --> 03:03:33,320
Speaker 1: do we change that? Well, the National a f l

3461
03:03:33,360 --> 03:03:36,400
Speaker 1: c I O puts millions and millions and millions of

3462
03:03:36,440 --> 03:03:40,120
Speaker 1: dollars into elections. We have gotten so many of these

3463
03:03:40,200 --> 03:03:44,480
Speaker 1: people elected and back them in Arizona and West Virginia,

3464
03:03:44,640 --> 03:03:47,280
Speaker 1: you name it, and then we get nothing back. If

3465
03:03:47,360 --> 03:03:49,760
Speaker 1: we were to take that money instead and put it

3466
03:03:49,879 --> 03:03:55,600
Speaker 1: into a robust new organizing department or a recrafted organizing

3467
03:03:55,680 --> 03:04:01,120
Speaker 1: department and actually assigned reel on the ground organizers in

3468
03:04:01,240 --> 03:04:03,760
Speaker 1: every single state in the country to help our affiliates,

3469
03:04:03,800 --> 03:04:07,680
Speaker 1: to help our state federations and their affiliates to internally organized,

3470
03:04:07,720 --> 03:04:09,600
Speaker 1: to build a kind of network I talked was talking

3471
03:04:09,600 --> 03:04:12,320
Speaker 1: to me about before, and to be active and build

3472
03:04:12,360 --> 03:04:16,800
Speaker 1: alliances the Social Justice Group, our power would be amplified

3473
03:04:17,160 --> 03:04:20,240
Speaker 1: five million fold. This is the way we do it.

3474
03:04:20,600 --> 03:04:23,360
Speaker 1: Politicians aren't going to do what's right because it's right.

3475
03:04:23,800 --> 03:04:26,040
Speaker 1: Politicians are gonna do what's right when they feel so

3476
03:04:26,200 --> 03:04:28,920
Speaker 1: much pressure that they have to do it. Now, the

3477
03:04:29,040 --> 03:04:32,199
Speaker 1: victories that we saw for working people during the Great

3478
03:04:32,240 --> 03:04:36,200
Speaker 1: Depression under FDR, that wasn't just because FDR thought, you know,

3479
03:04:36,280 --> 03:04:38,240
Speaker 1: this is the right thing to do. It's because people

3480
03:04:38,280 --> 03:04:40,840
Speaker 1: are going on strike, because people were organized because they

3481
03:04:40,879 --> 03:04:44,480
Speaker 1: were scared of revolutionary change in this country. So turn

3482
03:04:44,600 --> 03:04:49,240
Speaker 1: to meaningful, true, true um of major reforms as a

3483
03:04:49,320 --> 03:04:53,400
Speaker 1: way to blunt that perceived threat that they have. And

3484
03:04:53,600 --> 03:04:55,959
Speaker 1: that's what we got to get back to. Not our

3485
03:04:56,000 --> 03:04:58,720
Speaker 1: power is never gonna grow from people who are wearing

3486
03:04:58,800 --> 03:05:01,280
Speaker 1: ties in Washington. Power is going to grow based on

3487
03:05:01,320 --> 03:05:04,680
Speaker 1: our solidarity on the shop floor and in our communities.

3488
03:05:05,000 --> 03:05:06,800
Speaker 1: So that's the direction we gotta go, and we got

3489
03:05:06,879 --> 03:05:10,360
Speaker 1: to do that rapidly, very rapidly. It's been clear to

3490
03:05:10,440 --> 03:05:13,760
Speaker 1: me for quite a while both that the reason workers

3491
03:05:13,879 --> 03:05:16,400
Speaker 1: gain so much in the wake of the Great Depression

3492
03:05:16,480 --> 03:05:18,280
Speaker 1: and the only kind of hope we have for doing

3493
03:05:18,320 --> 03:05:21,360
Speaker 1: that now is, um, they have to be scared, you know,

3494
03:05:21,520 --> 03:05:23,640
Speaker 1: to an extent, they have to be scared of of

3495
03:05:23,800 --> 03:05:27,000
Speaker 1: what's arrayed against them, both in its organization and in

3496
03:05:27,080 --> 03:05:32,800
Speaker 1: its ability to disrupt things. UM. And I'm wondering what

3497
03:05:32,920 --> 03:05:36,600
Speaker 1: you think people listening, people um, who maybe are not

3498
03:05:36,760 --> 03:05:40,080
Speaker 1: involved in organized labor, Like what what what do you

3499
03:05:40,160 --> 03:05:44,080
Speaker 1: think people can do to further those ends? Like this

3500
03:05:44,280 --> 03:05:46,360
Speaker 1: is like when we when we start talking about national

3501
03:05:46,480 --> 03:05:48,680
Speaker 1: level a f l C I O politics, that's not

3502
03:05:48,800 --> 03:05:52,240
Speaker 1: something I think most people listening feel like they have

3503
03:05:52,640 --> 03:05:55,440
Speaker 1: any kind of ability to influence. Um, what do you

3504
03:05:55,520 --> 03:05:57,879
Speaker 1: think they can influence? What do you think people can

3505
03:05:57,959 --> 03:06:02,400
Speaker 1: be doing to build that kind of capathitate? Well, you

3506
03:06:02,520 --> 03:06:06,000
Speaker 1: gotta be active, and you've got to engage in the

3507
03:06:06,480 --> 03:06:10,280
Speaker 1: political and social movements. But also most folks, you know,

3508
03:06:10,360 --> 03:06:12,480
Speaker 1: they're gonna have a job of some time and a

3509
03:06:12,560 --> 03:06:14,720
Speaker 1: lot of folks aren't getting treated the way they should

3510
03:06:14,760 --> 03:06:16,160
Speaker 1: in their job. I don't care if you're work in

3511
03:06:16,200 --> 03:06:18,920
Speaker 1: a coffee shop, in a restaurant, or in a gas station,

3512
03:06:19,800 --> 03:06:23,480
Speaker 1: or in manufacturing, and you could start by organizing with

3513
03:06:23,560 --> 03:06:26,600
Speaker 1: your coworkers to form a union today. You know, you

3514
03:06:26,680 --> 03:06:29,480
Speaker 1: could reach out to a local union to ask for help,

3515
03:06:29,600 --> 03:06:31,720
Speaker 1: or you could do it on your own. Frankly, but

3516
03:06:31,959 --> 03:06:34,280
Speaker 1: if we're not organized as working people, and we are

3517
03:06:35,480 --> 03:06:38,520
Speaker 1: we are most of the world. If we're not organized

3518
03:06:38,520 --> 03:06:42,039
Speaker 1: amongst ourselves, we're not going to be able to become

3519
03:06:42,120 --> 03:06:44,720
Speaker 1: that expression of power that we need to be in

3520
03:06:44,879 --> 03:06:47,080
Speaker 1: order to create the change. If we're just a collection

3521
03:06:47,120 --> 03:06:51,560
Speaker 1: of individuals, then the ruling class, the wealthy, the powerful,

3522
03:06:51,640 --> 03:06:54,560
Speaker 1: the elite, they're gonna have all their ducks in a

3523
03:06:54,680 --> 03:06:58,199
Speaker 1: row to keep us divided and to keep their foot

3524
03:06:58,240 --> 03:07:00,920
Speaker 1: on the pedal of the status quo. So we need

3525
03:07:01,000 --> 03:07:03,520
Speaker 1: to come together. We need to organize in the natural

3526
03:07:03,560 --> 03:07:08,280
Speaker 1: place to organize is in the workplace. In my opinion, yeah,

3527
03:07:08,360 --> 03:07:11,320
Speaker 1: I mean it. It is the natural place to organize.

3528
03:07:11,400 --> 03:07:14,520
Speaker 1: It's also become an increasingly difficult place to organize. We

3529
03:07:14,560 --> 03:07:18,160
Speaker 1: all watch what Amazon did in Bessemer this year. You know, UM,

3530
03:07:18,400 --> 03:07:22,280
Speaker 1: and and that fight is still ongoing to an extent. UM,

3531
03:07:22,920 --> 03:07:26,760
Speaker 1: but it is Uh, it is a continuing challenge, um

3532
03:07:27,760 --> 03:07:31,640
Speaker 1: to to actually effectively unionized in a lot of the

3533
03:07:31,680 --> 03:07:34,760
Speaker 1: industries where it matters most you know, UM, like we

3534
03:07:34,879 --> 03:07:38,359
Speaker 1: have some choke point industries, like we talked about aircraft

3535
03:07:38,440 --> 03:07:41,120
Speaker 1: employees that are heavily unionized, thankfully, and that do have

3536
03:07:41,200 --> 03:07:43,800
Speaker 1: a lot of power, as has been demonstrated recently when

3537
03:07:43,840 --> 03:07:47,200
Speaker 1: they when they go to the mat. Um. But I

3538
03:07:47,520 --> 03:07:50,440
Speaker 1: I'm interested in kind of we we've got, you know,

3539
03:07:50,560 --> 03:07:54,640
Speaker 1: Amazon employees is really one of the areas that I'm

3540
03:07:54,840 --> 03:07:57,760
Speaker 1: looking at where, my god, if if we could actually

3541
03:07:57,879 --> 03:08:00,720
Speaker 1: if something significant could actually get off the ground and

3542
03:08:00,920 --> 03:08:03,920
Speaker 1: a significant number of those workers could get organized, it

3543
03:08:04,000 --> 03:08:07,360
Speaker 1: can make a real difference. UM. But you know, you've

3544
03:08:07,440 --> 03:08:11,560
Speaker 1: got effectively what are community organizations for the most part

3545
03:08:11,680 --> 03:08:14,520
Speaker 1: going up against um. You know, Amazon at this point

3546
03:08:14,560 --> 03:08:17,240
Speaker 1: has more resources than most nation states. Yeah, but so

3547
03:08:17,400 --> 03:08:20,520
Speaker 1: did the Carnegies and the Rockefellers and the folks like

3548
03:08:20,680 --> 03:08:24,119
Speaker 1: this and and are particularly and it's always been hard,

3549
03:08:24,879 --> 03:08:28,160
Speaker 1: uh too long ago in our country, maybe during our

3550
03:08:28,280 --> 03:08:30,720
Speaker 1: grandfather's day, where there was a very good chance you'd

3551
03:08:30,760 --> 03:08:33,200
Speaker 1: be shot or at least beat over the head with

3552
03:08:33,360 --> 03:08:36,240
Speaker 1: a club from the Pinkerton's if you try to organize.

3553
03:08:36,360 --> 03:08:40,080
Speaker 1: Organizing has never been easy, and yeah, such as Columbia today,

3554
03:08:40,760 --> 03:08:44,720
Speaker 1: trade unions are killed at an unbelievable clip, almost on

3555
03:08:44,800 --> 03:08:48,640
Speaker 1: a daily basis, and yet still they organized. So I'm

3556
03:08:48,720 --> 03:08:52,040
Speaker 1: not suggesting to any of your listeners that if this

3557
03:08:52,200 --> 03:08:55,160
Speaker 1: is easy, what I am that it has to happen.

3558
03:08:55,360 --> 03:08:58,680
Speaker 1: It has to happen. And there's different models too. Like

3559
03:08:59,000 --> 03:09:01,760
Speaker 1: in some Place is one of the models that's been

3560
03:09:01,800 --> 03:09:04,640
Speaker 1: effectively used as forming workers centers, right, So that's not

3561
03:09:04,760 --> 03:09:08,360
Speaker 1: a traditional union. It's a center in a city, or

3562
03:09:08,400 --> 03:09:11,480
Speaker 1: in a community or in a town where workers come

3563
03:09:11,560 --> 03:09:15,000
Speaker 1: together and strategized right at a in a location, to

3564
03:09:15,200 --> 03:09:18,680
Speaker 1: strategize how to be effective as a group, as a whole,

3565
03:09:18,760 --> 03:09:22,320
Speaker 1: as a class on issues that are important to them,

3566
03:09:22,600 --> 03:09:24,920
Speaker 1: you know, be an economic, be its social, be it um,

3567
03:09:25,000 --> 03:09:28,760
Speaker 1: fighting against racism, whatever it may be. That's a model

3568
03:09:28,800 --> 03:09:31,440
Speaker 1: that I suggest folks could could look into as an

3569
03:09:31,480 --> 03:09:34,600
Speaker 1: alternative way. If, for whatever reason, you don't feel that

3570
03:09:35,560 --> 03:09:38,119
Speaker 1: the time is right for a union in your shop today,

3571
03:09:38,360 --> 03:09:40,959
Speaker 1: although it needs to be tomorrow, take a look at

3572
03:09:41,000 --> 03:09:43,200
Speaker 1: workers center and see if there's one in your community,

3573
03:09:43,240 --> 03:09:46,040
Speaker 1: get involved, if not, get together a few people and

3574
03:09:46,120 --> 03:09:48,000
Speaker 1: see what it would take to start when where you live.

3575
03:09:48,400 --> 03:09:50,320
Speaker 1: But one way or another, we have to be organized,

3576
03:09:50,400 --> 03:09:52,160
Speaker 1: we have to come together. We cannot just be a

3577
03:09:52,240 --> 03:09:56,680
Speaker 1: collection of individuals. That's a great point, UM, and useful information.

3578
03:09:56,920 --> 03:09:58,400
Speaker 1: I think kind of the last thing I wanted to

3579
03:09:58,480 --> 03:10:01,120
Speaker 1: get into UM was one of the things I first

3580
03:10:01,200 --> 03:10:04,880
Speaker 1: learned about your organization that you issued a solidarity statement

3581
03:10:04,920 --> 03:10:07,600
Speaker 1: back and I think it was two thousand nineteen UM

3582
03:10:07,920 --> 03:10:12,440
Speaker 1: with the YPG and J in Rojaba. UM. And you've

3583
03:10:12,480 --> 03:10:15,360
Speaker 1: issued you know it stated your solidarity with Black Lives matter,

3584
03:10:15,520 --> 03:10:19,720
Speaker 1: with the Zapatista's currently what they're undergoing in Mexico, UM,

3585
03:10:19,920 --> 03:10:23,080
Speaker 1: which is massive repression from the government yet again. UM.

3586
03:10:23,360 --> 03:10:26,240
Speaker 1: And you know your support of Palestinian rights and of

3587
03:10:26,680 --> 03:10:29,480
Speaker 1: against sort of the U S occupation or not occupation,

3588
03:10:29,560 --> 03:10:33,120
Speaker 1: but a blockade of Cuba. UM. What do you see

3589
03:10:33,280 --> 03:10:37,000
Speaker 1: when we're talking about this struggle, this broad struggle we've

3590
03:10:37,000 --> 03:10:38,200
Speaker 1: been talking about all day, what do you see as

3591
03:10:38,240 --> 03:10:41,840
Speaker 1: the role of internationalism and both in both organizing people

3592
03:10:41,879 --> 03:10:47,640
Speaker 1: in organizing resistance. Well, our starting point today is capital

3593
03:10:47,959 --> 03:10:52,720
Speaker 1: is international. So we're going to have a foundational challenge

3594
03:10:53,080 --> 03:10:55,440
Speaker 1: to the power of capital. We also have to be

3595
03:10:55,520 --> 03:11:00,760
Speaker 1: internationalists in our altbum. We supported the YPG y p

3596
03:11:00,920 --> 03:11:05,840
Speaker 1: J and the newly elected government in Rojava because they

3597
03:11:05,879 --> 03:11:10,200
Speaker 1: are struggling for economic equity and a direct prot history

3598
03:11:10,280 --> 03:11:12,360
Speaker 1: democracy in that corner of the world. We see this

3599
03:11:12,440 --> 03:11:17,880
Speaker 1: as the most significant revolution in in the world, uh

3600
03:11:18,000 --> 03:11:20,640
Speaker 1: in generations. I mean this in our mind is on

3601
03:11:20,800 --> 03:11:22,920
Speaker 1: far with the Spanish Civil War and what we saw

3602
03:11:23,000 --> 03:11:25,840
Speaker 1: around Barcelona and the c n T then or the

3603
03:11:25,879 --> 03:11:29,920
Speaker 1: Paris Commune of EE. If this was happening in Europe,

3604
03:11:29,959 --> 03:11:31,720
Speaker 1: a day wouldn't go by the where this wouldn't be

3605
03:11:31,760 --> 03:11:35,640
Speaker 1: front page news. But in the Western world we often

3606
03:11:36,200 --> 03:11:38,760
Speaker 1: the corporate media terms of blind blind eye to many

3607
03:11:38,800 --> 03:11:42,200
Speaker 1: of those struggles. So they're doing their part, and we

3608
03:11:42,280 --> 03:11:44,880
Speaker 1: have to do our part in our country. To the Zabatistas,

3609
03:11:44,879 --> 03:11:48,440
Speaker 1: they're doing their part in Chiapas, in broadways, in some

3610
03:11:48,560 --> 03:11:52,360
Speaker 1: regards in Mexico as such. But we need to reach

3611
03:11:52,400 --> 03:11:55,560
Speaker 1: our hand out in encouragement and say hey, we're here

3612
03:11:55,720 --> 03:11:58,880
Speaker 1: to support you. One of the things we sought to

3613
03:11:58,959 --> 03:12:02,600
Speaker 1: concretely do in the Vermont labor movement is in two

3614
03:12:02,640 --> 03:12:05,680
Speaker 1: thou nineteen one of our Central Labor Council's passed the

3615
03:12:05,760 --> 03:12:09,200
Speaker 1: resolutions for we said, look, if you are go over

3616
03:12:09,280 --> 03:12:12,160
Speaker 1: to fight and volunteer with the YEPG and y p J,

3617
03:12:12,360 --> 03:12:15,920
Speaker 1: because there's thousands of volunteers right uh, they're are volunteered

3618
03:12:15,959 --> 03:12:18,760
Speaker 1: to go over, if you return and your American will

3619
03:12:18,800 --> 03:12:22,040
Speaker 1: hook you up with a union job, and we'll hook

3620
03:12:22,080 --> 03:12:24,360
Speaker 1: you up with three months of room and board so

3621
03:12:24,480 --> 03:12:26,760
Speaker 1: you could get reacclimated, you could get back into the

3622
03:12:26,800 --> 03:12:28,800
Speaker 1: community and get back into the local fight through the

3623
03:12:28,879 --> 03:12:32,680
Speaker 1: labor movement. And we were proud to actually have an

3624
03:12:32,680 --> 03:12:35,880
Speaker 1: opportunity to do that for one returning American fighter in

3625
03:12:35,959 --> 03:12:38,960
Speaker 1: our latest resolution in two one, and this one was

3626
03:12:39,280 --> 03:12:41,960
Speaker 1: broader because it was the whole vermonti a FO, not

3627
03:12:42,080 --> 03:12:45,720
Speaker 1: just the Central Labor Council. We again offered, we encourage

3628
03:12:45,760 --> 03:12:48,640
Speaker 1: folks to feel so inclined if they're in that place

3629
03:12:48,680 --> 03:12:51,120
Speaker 1: in their life to volunteer with the YPG and y

3630
03:12:51,240 --> 03:12:53,920
Speaker 1: PA and if they're Americans and they come back, we're

3631
03:12:53,959 --> 03:12:55,520
Speaker 1: happy to hook you up. We'll do our best to

3632
03:12:55,520 --> 03:12:57,880
Speaker 1: get you a good union job when you return. So

3633
03:12:58,000 --> 03:13:00,120
Speaker 1: we felt that was a very small least we do

3634
03:13:00,280 --> 03:13:04,240
Speaker 1: kind of thing. But concrete way to provide solidarity. We

3635
03:13:04,400 --> 03:13:06,920
Speaker 1: all have to stand together. It's really one fight. But

3636
03:13:07,040 --> 03:13:09,480
Speaker 1: the place we're going to be effective is where you

3637
03:13:09,600 --> 03:13:12,680
Speaker 1: live locally, in your town, in your city, and your

3638
03:13:12,800 --> 03:13:16,640
Speaker 1: state and in your country. Yeah. I think that's a

3639
03:13:16,720 --> 03:13:18,960
Speaker 1: great note to end on and a great thing that

3640
03:13:19,080 --> 03:13:21,560
Speaker 1: you all are doing. And I really do appreciate that,

3641
03:13:21,680 --> 03:13:24,040
Speaker 1: and I appreciate you, David coming on and talking to

3642
03:13:24,200 --> 03:13:26,640
Speaker 1: us today. Um, is there anything else you wanted to

3643
03:13:27,000 --> 03:13:29,120
Speaker 1: to to get out or anything you wanted to like

3644
03:13:29,200 --> 03:13:32,400
Speaker 1: any you know, charities or mutual aid funds or whatever

3645
03:13:32,440 --> 03:13:35,320
Speaker 1: you wanted to uh push before we kind of roll

3646
03:13:35,360 --> 03:13:38,280
Speaker 1: out today. I'd just like to push for folks to

3647
03:13:38,600 --> 03:13:42,120
Speaker 1: go to work out tomorrow and and organize, organize with

3648
03:13:42,200 --> 03:13:45,840
Speaker 1: your fellow workers and let's change the world solidarity. Thank you, David.

3649
03:13:50,080 --> 03:13:52,320
Speaker 1: Robert Evans here and I wanted to ask for your help.

3650
03:13:52,480 --> 03:13:54,880
Speaker 1: There is a Portland area woman rub it to me me.

3651
03:13:55,040 --> 03:13:58,440
Speaker 1: She's an Arabic interpreter and a Palestinian liberation activist and

3652
03:13:58,560 --> 03:14:01,080
Speaker 1: she is trying to save her home at the moment.

3653
03:14:01,640 --> 03:14:03,280
Speaker 1: She's got to go fund me. If you go to

3654
03:14:03,440 --> 03:14:07,240
Speaker 1: save Ruba's house, are you be a on go fund Bank,

3655
03:14:07,280 --> 03:14:09,960
Speaker 1: you'll find it. Save Ruby's House on go fund Me

3656
03:14:10,400 --> 03:14:12,360
Speaker 1: if you've got a few bucks, um, she could really

3657
03:14:12,480 --> 03:14:15,120
Speaker 1: use it again. Save Ruba's House. Are you be a

3658
03:14:15,760 --> 03:14:19,080
Speaker 1: at go fund Me? Thanks? Hey, We'll be back Monday

3659
03:14:19,240 --> 03:14:22,160
Speaker 1: with more episodes every week from now until the heat

3660
03:14:22,200 --> 03:14:24,720
Speaker 1: death of the Universe. It Could Happen Here is a

3661
03:14:24,760 --> 03:14:27,640
Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool

3662
03:14:27,720 --> 03:14:30,320
Speaker 1: Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com,

3663
03:14:30,480 --> 03:14:32,200
Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app,

3664
03:14:32,240 --> 03:14:35,600
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

3665
03:14:35,640 --> 03:14:38,320
Speaker 1: find sources for It Could Happen here, updated monthly at

3666
03:14:38,360 --> 03:14:41,560
Speaker 1: cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.

3667
03:14:43,920 --> 03:14:46,560
Speaker 1: When P. T. Barnum's Great American Museum burned to the

3668
03:14:46,640 --> 03:14:49,640
Speaker 1: ground in eighteen sixty five, what rose from its ashes

3669
03:14:49,720 --> 03:14:53,320
Speaker 1: would change the world? Welcome to Grim and Mild presents

3670
03:14:53,640 --> 03:14:57,359
Speaker 1: an ongoing journey into the strange, the unusual, and the fascinating.

3671
03:14:57,840 --> 03:15:00,320
Speaker 1: In our inaugural season, will give you a back stage

3672
03:15:00,360 --> 03:15:03,720
Speaker 1: tour of the complex and unusual artifact that is the

3673
03:15:03,840 --> 03:15:07,360
Speaker 1: American Side Show. Listen to Grim and Mile Presents now

3674
03:15:07,520 --> 03:15:10,440
Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

3675
03:15:10,600 --> 03:15:15,480
Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts. After thirty years, it's time to

3676
03:15:15,560 --> 03:15:17,920
Speaker 1: return to the halls of West Beverly High and hang

3677
03:15:18,000 --> 03:15:20,200
Speaker 1: out at the peach pit. On the podcast nine O

3678
03:15:20,320 --> 03:15:23,480
Speaker 1: two one o MG, visit Jenny Garth and Tori Spelling

3679
03:15:23,600 --> 03:15:26,160
Speaker 1: for a rewatch of the hit series Beverly Hills nine

3680
03:15:26,200 --> 03:15:28,600
Speaker 1: O two one oh. From the very beginning, we get

3681
03:15:28,760 --> 03:15:31,640
Speaker 1: to tell the fans all of the behind the scenes

3682
03:15:31,680 --> 03:15:34,040
Speaker 1: stories to actually happen, so they know what happened on

3683
03:15:34,160 --> 03:15:36,840
Speaker 1: camera obviously, but we can tell them all the good

3684
03:15:36,879 --> 03:15:39,040
Speaker 1: stuff that happened off camera. Listen to nine O two

3685
03:15:39,120 --> 03:15:42,040
Speaker 1: one O MG on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

3686
03:15:42,200 --> 03:15:45,280
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys, I'm

3687
03:15:45,320 --> 03:15:47,200
Speaker 1: a Shop Bloud and I am Troy Millions and we

3688
03:15:47,280 --> 03:15:49,560
Speaker 1: are the host of the Ernia Leisure podcast when we

3689
03:15:49,680 --> 03:15:53,240
Speaker 1: break down business models and examine the latest trans and finance.

3690
03:15:53,440 --> 03:15:55,400
Speaker 1: We hold court and have exclusive interviews with some of

3691
03:15:55,400 --> 03:15:58,080
Speaker 1: the biggest names of business, sport and entertainment, from DJ

3692
03:15:58,280 --> 03:16:01,040
Speaker 1: Khaled to Mark Cuban, Rick Ross, Shaquille O'Neil. I mean,

3693
03:16:01,080 --> 03:16:03,640
Speaker 1: our alumni list is expansive. Listen to as our guests

3694
03:16:03,680 --> 03:16:06,879
Speaker 1: reveal their business models, hardships and triumphs, and their respective fields.

3695
03:16:06,920 --> 03:16:08,879
Speaker 1: The knowledge is in death and the questions are always

3696
03:16:08,920 --> 03:16:11,400
Speaker 1: delivered from your standpoint. We want to know what you

3697
03:16:11,440 --> 03:16:14,560
Speaker 1: want to know. We talked to the legends of business, sports,

3698
03:16:14,600 --> 03:16:17,680
Speaker 1: and entertainment about how they got their start and most importantly,

3699
03:16:17,720 --> 03:16:19,720
Speaker 1: how they make their money. Earni a Leisia is a

3700
03:16:19,800 --> 03:16:22,080
Speaker 1: college business class mixed with pop culture. You want to

3701
03:16:22,120 --> 03:16:24,360
Speaker 1: learn about the real estate game. Unclear as how the

3702
03:16:24,400 --> 03:16:27,080
Speaker 1: stock market works. We got you interested in starting a

3703
03:16:27,080 --> 03:16:29,920
Speaker 1: trucking company or vending machine business. Not really sure about

3704
03:16:30,000 --> 03:16:32,680
Speaker 1: how taxes or credit work. We got it all covered.

3705
03:16:32,800 --> 03:16:35,920
Speaker 1: The Earnier Leisure podcast is available now. Listen to Earnier

3706
03:16:36,000 --> 03:16:39,280
Speaker 1: Leisure on the Black Effect podcast Network, I Heart Radio, app,

3707
03:16:39,560 --> 03:16:41,959
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.