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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds and in not at all shocking news,

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Speaker 1: Trump is pushing to have the document's case to be

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Speaker 1: tried after the twenty twenty four election. We have a

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Speaker 1: fascinating show today. We are going to take the temperature

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Speaker 1: on the ground in two different states. The first, Michigan

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Speaker 1: Detroit News is Craig malgre joins us to talk Michigan politics.

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Speaker 2: And Governor Gretchen Whitmer.

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Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to Politico's Chris Cadigo about California and

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Speaker 1: how the Democratic Party is repairing after their unnecessary midterm

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Speaker 1: seat losses.

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Speaker 2: But first we have the host of Strict Scrutiny, Kate Shaw.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 3: Kate Shaw, Molly, thanks so much for having.

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Speaker 2: Me, Professor Kate Shaw. I should be calling you, Professor Sugah.

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Speaker 3: You should not. You should calling Kate obviously.

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Speaker 2: Let us talk about the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: You wrote a really good piece in the Times this

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Speaker 1: weekend about how much this Supreme Court values religion. I

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Speaker 1: want to first talk about that because I think it

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Speaker 1: relates to a lot of the cases that were on

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Speaker 1: the docket. This second season of Trump's Supreme Court Destroys America.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's been three years since the three you know,

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Speaker 3: Trump appointees have been fully in place. But I think

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Speaker 3: you're right, it's really only the second season because they

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Speaker 3: took a fairly cautious approach in that first season.

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Speaker 2: They never did that again.

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Speaker 3: It was like getting her wall hangings up and getting situated,

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Speaker 3: and then as soon as she was fully in place, yeah,

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Speaker 3: last term and then this one. And I don't think

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Speaker 3: there's any end in sight. They are just going through broke.

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Speaker 1: They say they're textualists, or they say they're this, or

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Speaker 1: they're that, but really religion seems to be kind of

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Speaker 1: their number one hobby horse.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean people sometimes refer

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Speaker 3: to this court as kind of elevated religion to a

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Speaker 3: sort of most favored nation status among rights. Right, the

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Speaker 3: Constitution protects lots of rights, but the one they see

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Speaker 3: most interested in protecting is the right to free exercise

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Speaker 3: of religion. Then maybe the Second Amendment right gun. So those,

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Speaker 3: I would say, are the two that this Court is

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Speaker 3: the most interested, conspicuously so in protecting. And yeah, I

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Speaker 3: mean there were two big cases this term one you know,

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Speaker 3: a blockbuster case three zero three creative, which was technically

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Speaker 3: a speech case, not a religion case. So the argument

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Speaker 3: was that this website designer, a Christian website designer who

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Speaker 3: did not want to design websites for same sex weddings,

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Speaker 3: had a right not to be compelled to speak, and

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Speaker 3: she said having to provide a website upon request would

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Speaker 3: have been compelled speech. So it was a speech case,

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Speaker 3: not a religion case. But the reason she objected, she said,

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Speaker 3: was religiously grounded. Right. She basically said she believed that

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Speaker 3: same sex marriages were false, that they were inconsistent with

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Speaker 3: God's plan, and for that reason she objected to designing

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Speaker 3: them for same sex couples.

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Speaker 2: I want to add an important caveat here, which is

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Speaker 2: she hasn't ever designed a website for a same sex couple.

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Speaker 2: This was a theoretical.

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Speaker 3: Case, absolutely, and I think that's a critically important point.

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Speaker 3: So she had never been asked to design a website

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Speaker 3: for a same sex couple. Unclear if she ever would

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Speaker 3: have been had she even gone into business shapes. She

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Speaker 3: wasn't even in the business of designing wedding websites at all.

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Speaker 2: This was just in case she decided she might want.

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Speaker 3: To and in case somebody tried to retain her services

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Speaker 3: that she didn't want to provide. Right, there were so

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Speaker 3: many kind of intermediate, speculative points in between her objection

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Speaker 3: and any possible injury in the world. Even if you

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Speaker 3: believe that this compelled speech argument is valid, it was

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Speaker 3: entirely speculative that it would ever actually come to pass.

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Speaker 3: And normally the Supreme Court doesn't decide cases under those circumstances.

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Speaker 3: It needs somebody who's either being injured or will imminently

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Speaker 3: be injured by the law they are objecting to in

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Speaker 3: order to actually get the Court to intervene. And I

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Speaker 3: think I think that the Court was so eager to

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Speaker 3: announce this broad principle of freedom from compelled provision of

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Speaker 3: goods and services on a non discriminatory basis that it

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Speaker 3: reached out to decide this case. And maybe if I

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Speaker 3: could say one more thing, I think it really matters

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Speaker 3: that individuals who have been wanting to challenge laws like this. Remember,

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Speaker 3: like five years ago, there was a very similar case

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Speaker 3: also out of Colorado, involving a baker who didn't want

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Speaker 3: to bake cakes for same sex and there the court

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Speaker 3: actually didn't decide the case on the marriage, sort of

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Speaker 3: took an off ramp. But actually there there was a

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Speaker 3: dispute right there was the same sex couple who had

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Speaker 3: gone into this bakery and tried to get a wedding case.

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Speaker 2: There was actually somewhat injured, yes, and.

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Speaker 3: They were definitely injured. I mean like it was a

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Speaker 3: really traumatic event. So there was no question about standing

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Speaker 3: the court who took a different off ramp. And in

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Speaker 3: the five intervening years, the same people who brought that

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Speaker 3: case have been really trying to find another case and

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Speaker 3: this is the best they had. And I think it's

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Speaker 3: just it is meaningful in that there's not a lot

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Speaker 3: of So if there's a lot of website designers out there,

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Speaker 3: and there are obviously a lot of same sex couples

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Speaker 3: getting married, it's just like it's not obvious that it's ever.

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Speaker 3: If she is known not to give great services or

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Speaker 3: something to same sex couples because she's a devout Christian

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Speaker 3: and doesn't believe in same sex marriage, maybe she's not

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Speaker 3: going to get a lot of requests from customers. Maybe

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Speaker 3: there'll be other website designers who provide the services that

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Speaker 3: same sex couples are then going to be drawn to it.

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Speaker 3: So I guess the point I'm making is institutional arrangements,

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Speaker 3: sometimes in quiet ways, get made such that the Court

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Speaker 3: doesn't have to sort of declare like sometimes things principles

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Speaker 3: come into tension, right, non discrimination principles may sometimes be

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Speaker 3: intension with people's religious values. It's a pluralistic country. People

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Speaker 3: believe all kinds of different stuff. And the point is,

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Speaker 3: most of the time we have figured out ways to

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Speaker 3: balance I think these competing imperatives. But the Supreme Court

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Speaker 3: here is basically saying, you know, first of all, it

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Speaker 3: is very much elevating religious belief above other values like equality.

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Speaker 3: But it's also saying we have to get in the

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Speaker 3: mix here when there isn't even an obvious conflict that

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Speaker 3: is live. And I think that's just part of the

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Speaker 3: kind of hubris of this court that we were seeing

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Speaker 3: on display in just a huge array of areas.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to tell a personal story here, which

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Speaker 1: I'm not known to do. But a friend of this podcast,

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Speaker 1: George Conway, and I were fighting pretty hard on each

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Speaker 1: other on this, and he was saying, this is a

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Speaker 1: victory for the First Amendment you shouldn't feel you should

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Speaker 1: be compelled to serve anyone you don't want to serve.

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Speaker 2: And I was saying.

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Speaker 1: That's and since we're not on cable news, I can

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Speaker 1: use this word bullshit, that this is actually opening the

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Speaker 1: door to discrimination, and what we're seeing already, right, it's

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Speaker 1: been you know whatever a week two weeks the owner

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Speaker 1: of a Michigan hair salon says she's refusing to serve

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Speaker 1: some members of the LGBTQ plus community. Christina Geiger, who

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Speaker 1: owns studio at hair salon and Travis City, says in

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Speaker 1: a Facebook post she is exercising her free speech right

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Speaker 1: by allowing only certain customers. If a human identifies as

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Speaker 1: anything other than a man woman, please seek services at

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Speaker 1: a local pet grammer. So, I mean, I think we're seeing,

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Speaker 1: besides being this person being a falling, that this is

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Speaker 1: the doorway bigots had hoped for.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I think there is. You know, I think

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Speaker 3: there's debate already about kind of how broadly to read

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Speaker 3: this opinion, and kind of understandably, I think they're litigators

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Speaker 3: who very much want, and you know, I very much

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Speaker 3: share this desire to have this opinion be a narrow

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Speaker 3: one the State of Colorado stipulated that this was an

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Speaker 3: expressive business.

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Speaker 2: And this expressive speech. Will you just I'm sorry to

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Speaker 2: interrupt you, but will you talk for a minute about

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Speaker 2: the difference between expressive speech.

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Speaker 3: Well, the court hasn't really told us that much, but

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Speaker 3: the basic idea is something like, you know, it's just

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Speaker 3: different to sell a good or a service where you

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Speaker 3: are expressing something in the doing or the making. That

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Speaker 3: distinguishes maybe these kinds of more artistic creative endeavors from

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Speaker 3: something like selling a pre made sandwich. Right, So maybe

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Speaker 3: the argument is people who are engaging in the sale

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Speaker 3: of something like this, something expressive where you know, their

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Speaker 3: own voice is kind of inextricably linked up in the

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Speaker 3: thing they are selling on the caremercial marketplace, that that's

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Speaker 3: different in some meaningful way from just like, yeah, selling

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Speaker 3: a shirt, selling a sandwich, something like that. So that's

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Speaker 3: a way to maybe limit or blunt the force of

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Speaker 3: this opinion to only those businesses that can be characterized

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Speaker 3: as expressive. You know, it wouldn't necessarily give license to

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Speaker 3: someone who runs a bodega to deny service to somebody

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Speaker 3: from the LGBTQ community or some other protected group. But

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Speaker 3: a couple things. One the category of expressive I think

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Speaker 3: is potentially really expansive. Right, so maybe a pre made sandwich,

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Speaker 3: Know what about a custom sandwich? Right, Like, a lot

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Speaker 3: of things can be characterized that I think. So think

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Speaker 3: about just weddings, right, like you interface if you have

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Speaker 3: like a big wedding with tailors, bakers, photographers, calligraphers, potentially,

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Speaker 3: I mean, and all those services could definitely be characterized

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Speaker 3: as expressive. If a web design business can be so,

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Speaker 3: even if it's not literally everything sold on the commercial marketplace,

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Speaker 3: it's a huge, I think swath of services that also

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Speaker 3: often attached to life's really important events, right like weddings

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Speaker 3: and birthdays and graduations. And if everyone who provides something

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Speaker 3: in conjunction with those things can all of a sudden

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Speaker 3: refuse to participate. If we're talking about a same sex couple,

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Speaker 3: or an interracial couple, or a couple in which one

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Speaker 3: individual is disabled or both, I mean, this is just

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Speaker 3: like taking a huge bite out of ordinary principles of

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Speaker 3: equality and dignity and fair treatment that we have all

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Speaker 3: become really accustomed to living under.

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Speaker 2: Right an anti discrimination Yeah, I haven't heard the specific

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Speaker 2: case that George is making. But for sure, there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of people in various places, I think on

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Speaker 2: the ideological spectrum, not just like the far right, who

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Speaker 2: are characterizing this as a as a victory for speech.

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Speaker 3: And I think that if you take just the narrowest

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Speaker 3: possible view of you know, the assertion that this web

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Speaker 3: designer would be web designer was making, Like, yeah, her

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Speaker 3: claim was a speech claim, and that claim one I

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Speaker 3: think if you zoom out at all and really take

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Speaker 3: a broader view of what actually is at stake and

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Speaker 3: what is imperiled, I think it's really enormous in terms of,

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Speaker 3: again the ability of lots of individuals to be treated

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Speaker 3: fairly and equally, like you said, just basic non discrimination values.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about some of the other cases where

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court sort of went in there and we're like,

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Speaker 1: you know, no, we're the legislative body now, bitches. I

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Speaker 1: mean that was what I felt like, like we're talking

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Speaker 1: about we're talking about like the EPA, that EPA case,

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Speaker 1: the Clean Water Act, because I think that's such an

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Speaker 1: important one too.

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Speaker 2: It's sort of like you see where they're going with us.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, So that's last terms West Virginia Versus EPA case

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Speaker 3: in which the Court strikes down the Clean Power Plan,

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Speaker 3: also a case that arguably should never have been decided

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Speaker 3: because the plan had already been overtaken. Like was we

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Speaker 3: were already even past the Trump administration. We were the

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Speaker 3: Trump administration had withdrawn it. The Biden administration then had

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Speaker 3: its own power plan. So the Court was opening in

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Speaker 3: the abstract about this plan that was like seven years

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Speaker 3: old at this point and had never gone into effect,

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Speaker 3: but still held that the EPA did not have the

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Speaker 3: authority to issue this broad I mean, the Court characterized it,

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Speaker 3: I think, in maybe somewhat unfair terms, a really broad

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Speaker 3: role regarding carbon divisions from coal plants. And it's the

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Speaker 3: logic of that opinion from last term, which was, as

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Speaker 3: you just said, Molly, like the Court basically anointing itself

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Speaker 3: like the key policymaker of the country, was exactly the

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Speaker 3: same logic that was on display in this term's decision

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Speaker 3: striking down the Biden loan forgiveness plan. So the Court

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Speaker 3: used this, i think truly invented doctrine that it calls

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Speaker 3: the Major Questions doctrine, which is like twenty years or

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Speaker 3: so old, and was a doctrine that didn't do much

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Speaker 3: work in the early years, but in the last couple

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Speaker 3: of years has assumed this enormous importance. I mean, Kagan

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Speaker 3: and her assent in the Loan cases calls it the

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Speaker 3: made up major questions doctrine, which I think is actually

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Speaker 3: just factually true. It's completely invented. It's completely invented very recently,

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Speaker 3: and it just basically says, if an agency tries to

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Speaker 3: do something that, in the Court's view is really big, major,

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Speaker 3: and particularly involves an issue of vast economic or political significance,

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Speaker 3: then the agency has to be able to point to

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Speaker 3: crystal clear language from Congress authorizing the agency to take

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Speaker 3: said action, or the action is unlawful. And that's just

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Speaker 3: like not how Congress ever, legislates, right, It doesn't. When

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Speaker 3: it passes the Clean Air Act or this statute called

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Speaker 3: the Heroes Act that gives the Secretary of Education the

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Speaker 3: power to make changes to federal loan plans, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: specifically say in the event of, you know, once in

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Speaker 3: a century pandemic, if people end up like in real

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Speaker 3: economic distress, you know, that's just not how lawmaking works.

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Speaker 3: And nor do these statutes from the nineteen seventies that

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Speaker 3: give broad authority to the EPA to regulate like clean

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Speaker 3: air and clean water, say with specificity how exactly they're

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Speaker 3: supposed to do that. But this rule the Court has

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Speaker 3: announced would require that degree of specificity in statutes, and

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Speaker 3: if it's not there, strikes these agency actions down. And

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Speaker 3: it's just an unbelievably subjective and malleable test, and it

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Speaker 3: is one that gives the Court a tremendous amount of

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Speaker 3: power to decide just how how big is too big,

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Speaker 3: how much is too much, what policies doesn't like, and

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Speaker 3: to strike them down on that basis.

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Speaker 2: The three level of justices have kind of had enough

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Speaker 2: of his As frustrated as we are, they seem matter.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about the kind of

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Speaker 1: like I mean, I remember last season on Trump's Supreme Court,

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Speaker 1: we had Sodoma R. Saying the spurt will never survive

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Speaker 1: this stench. This season, I feel like we had Kagan

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Speaker 1: and Justin Jackson talking with much more kind of harsh language.

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Speaker 2: Can you talk about that? Absolutely?

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Speaker 3: I think it's right that these so we now have

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Speaker 3: justice so to my or Justice Kagan, Justice Jackson, the

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Speaker 3: three liberals. There are a couple of cases this term

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Speaker 3: where you kind of saw them seeming to try to

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Speaker 3: forge compromises, in particular with the Chief Justice John Roberts

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Speaker 3: cases before they went on vacation.

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Speaker 1: I feel like they always like they wait until the

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Speaker 1: very end to kind of kill us.

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Speaker 4: I know.

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Speaker 3: Actually, the one exception I would say is the Voting

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Speaker 3: Rights Act case where Roberts surprised a lot of people

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Speaker 3: in writing the opinion upholding the Voting Rights Act, you know,

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Speaker 3: finding that it still has force and you know, does

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Speaker 3: something meaningful in terms of protecting the ability of black

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Speaker 3: voters to actually exercise meaningful political power.

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Speaker 2: Many of us were shocked.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it was a really surprising I think I'm still

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Speaker 3: sort of processing that decision, but that really was kind

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Speaker 3: of an outlier. And then and then, actually, the other

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Speaker 3: I would throw in is a case in which the

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Speaker 3: Court rejected a bunch of challenges to the Indian Child

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Speaker 3: Welfare Act.

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Speaker 2: And that's the Gorsuch has this sort of one group

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Speaker 2: that he feels he can sort of have compassion for.

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Speaker 3: That's right, Well, I mean just evangelical Christians or Christians

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Speaker 3: who discriminated against these things by generally applicable non discrimination laws.

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Speaker 5: I would add to the list. Yes, that's right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's right.

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Speaker 3: But yes, I think it's right that in the biggest

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Speaker 3: opinions of the term, which were enormous six y three

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Speaker 3: conservative victories. So that's you know, three or three creative

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Speaker 3: which we were just talking about. That's the affirmative action

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Speaker 3: cases out of Harvard UNC, that's the Biden loan forgiveness plan,

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Speaker 3: the sort of the three that were the last, and

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Speaker 3: there are lots of other big ones, but those were

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Speaker 3: six to three. And these dissenting justices are done trying

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Speaker 3: to forge compromises or strike a faciliatory note. I mean,

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Speaker 3: they were ripshit, I think in a lot of these descents,

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Speaker 3: and correctly so. So Kagan I already mentioned her descent

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Speaker 3: in the loan cases. In addition to calling the majority

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Speaker 3: like using this made up major questions doctrine basically says

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Speaker 3: the Court violated the Constitution, which is something that that

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Speaker 3: justices don't usually say about each other, Like their job

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Speaker 3: is to decide who else violates the Constitution, but to

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Speaker 3: say that they themselves can do it was a really

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Speaker 3: striking moment. But I think in some ways the most

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Speaker 3: striking descent of the term was Justice Jackson's descent in

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Speaker 3: the Affirmative Action cases, just the one she recused in

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Speaker 3: the Harvard case. It was just the unc case. But

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Speaker 3: the cases were consolidated in the opinion, and so Tomior

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Speaker 3: had an incredible descent there as well. So they wrote

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Speaker 3: separately but joined each other's descents. They both really I

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Speaker 3: think exhaust of and irrefutably recited the history of the

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Speaker 3: fourteenth Amendment, the laws passed by Congress immediately after the

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Speaker 3: fourteenth Amendment, and all of that I think makes just

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Speaker 3: crystal clear that the idea that the Constitution has to

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Speaker 3: be understood as race blind is just preposterous. Like the

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Speaker 3: drafters of that amendment that commands equality and the laws

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Speaker 3: passed right after it, and their drafters everybody understood that

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Speaker 3: in order to bring about conditions of meaningful equality you

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Speaker 3: had to take race into accounts, like the creation of

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Speaker 3: the Freedman's Bureau. Thomas in his concurrence in the Affirmative

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Speaker 3: Action Cases says that was actually the category Freedman was

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Speaker 3: a race neutral category, which is a truly laughable claim.

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Speaker 3: And both so Jamayor and Jackson I think, make that

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Speaker 3: really clear. And then Jackson, I think does a beautiful

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Speaker 3: job documenting the profound and enduring racial disparities across like

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Speaker 3: health and wealth and general well being, all of which

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Speaker 3: is traceable to a history of both obviously slavery, but

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Speaker 3: then formal legal inequality, and is the reason that these

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Speaker 3: universities have tried to take raise into account measured way

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Speaker 3: to build diverse classes in order to both open minds

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Speaker 3: of students and to output a diverse class of leaders

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Speaker 3: to do things like serve diverse communities in the state

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Speaker 3: of North Carolina where she's focused anyway, So those I

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Speaker 3: think are great examples of just and then so Tomyour's

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Speaker 3: descent in that three or three creative case, Like, she

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Speaker 3: doesn't try to suggest this is a narrow opinion. She

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Speaker 3: says the court has basically licensed discrimination and it's not

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Speaker 3: clear what logical endpoint there is, and that this is

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Speaker 3: just an existential threat to principles of equality. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think silver lining is a weird way

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Speaker 3: to describe it. But I think in some ways, these

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Speaker 3: full throated kind of articulations of counter visions of what

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Speaker 3: the Constitution means, what our laws do, what the role

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Speaker 3: of the court is. We've seen those emerge from the

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Speaker 3: pens of these three women in descent, and that I

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Speaker 3: think has been really gratifying because sometimes we've seen them

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Speaker 3: just try to sort of play nice and forged compromises,

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Speaker 3: and understandably so if they think they can limit the damage.

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Speaker 3: But on some of these issues, I think they've decided

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Speaker 3: that it is better to speak clearly to the public

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Speaker 3: about what this court is doing.

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Speaker 1: I had Stephen Bladock on this podcast and he was

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Speaker 1: talking about there are ways in which Congress has authority

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Speaker 1: over this Supreme Court, even though the Supreme Court doesn't

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Speaker 1: believe it does. And I'm curious, like, do you agree

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Speaker 1: with that or do you think there's some other mechanism

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Speaker 1: or just you know, give us something to hang our

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Speaker 1: hats on, because otherwise we're going to be depressed.

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Speaker 3: Yes, well, one is that you know, this is I

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Speaker 3: think already starting to change. But the left just needs

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Speaker 3: to pay a lot more attention to the court and

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Speaker 3: needs to understand the Supreme Court is an important kind

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Speaker 3: of voting issue, which there has been just this enormous obviously,

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Speaker 3: you know, partisan asymmetry in terms of how mobilized people

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Speaker 3: are around the Supreme Court, and I think Dobbs has

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Speaker 3: really upended all of that, but you know, muscle memory

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Speaker 3: has to be built, like the court has to be

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Speaker 3: central to every election for Senate, for president, and for

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Speaker 3: voters on the left, and that I think kind of

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Speaker 3: is a critical potential response to this. Now that's a

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Speaker 3: long term one, right, like it takes time, but I

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Speaker 3: think a really important one. And I think that Steve

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Speaker 3: is right that Hungress has been asleep at the wheel

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Speaker 3: for a long time in the context of the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 3: and obviously in a divided Congress it's harder to do that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the opportunity to really pass any meaningful reform

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Speaker 3: has been squandered in the filibuster. It meant that, you know,

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Speaker 3: doing things like actually expanding the court was never on

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Speaker 3: the table, you know, in recent years anyway. But if

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Speaker 3: you had enough Democratic senators to actually limit or abolish

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Speaker 3: the filibuster, all of a sudden, a lot of just

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Speaker 3: straightforward statutory changes become realistic. So doing things like potentially

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Speaker 3: adding justices to the court, you know, trying to do

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Speaker 3: some kind of creative term limits that that I think

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Speaker 3: is harder because there's an argument needs to be done

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Speaker 3: by constitutional amendment. And if this court, you know, was

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Speaker 3: in the position of deciding whether the term limit statute

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Speaker 3: was constitutional, I'm pretty sure they would find conveniently.

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Speaker 2: Enough that it's not.

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Speaker 3: But adding justices is obviously constitutionally sound. No one questions that.

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Speaker 3: And it's happened before, it's happened before it's you know,

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Speaker 3: it has been a while, and it would be absolutely

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Speaker 3: constitutional hardball. But so is Mitch McConnell just refusing to

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Speaker 3: let President ob fill the vacancy that Scalia left. So

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Speaker 3: also stripping the Court's jurisdiction over certain kinds of disputes,

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Speaker 3: Congress could pass laws saying that Court can't decide cases

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Speaker 3: involving certain kinds of agency actions. If the Court continues

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Speaker 3: to strike down important social policies that Congress or agencies

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Speaker 3: sort of managed to pass, it could just you know,

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Speaker 3: try to remove broad categories of cases from the Court altogether.

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Speaker 3: So those are things that statutes could easily do. And

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Speaker 3: actually just a few more democratic president and a few

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Speaker 3: more Democratic senators willing to actually look at changing or

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Speaker 3: again abolishing the filibuster. But all of a sudden, I

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Speaker 3: think open up all of that. But also internally, like

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Speaker 3: John Roberts just needs to get that House in order,

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Speaker 3: Like this these ethics scandals are I think they're not

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Speaker 3: going to stop. But even the Times piece that just

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Speaker 3: dropped this week about Justice Thomas and the Ratio Alger

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Speaker 3: Association had all of these little nuggets in there about

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Speaker 3: it seemed report trips that were a little mysterious. Still,

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Speaker 3: and it just feels like there's a lot more reporting

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Speaker 3: ongoing and more shoes to drop. We just cannot have

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Speaker 3: these public officials exercising all of this power. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's just an enormous amount of power with life tenure,

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Speaker 3: with no real meaningful ethics constraints, internal or external. It's

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Speaker 3: just not a sustainable state of affairs.

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Speaker 2: Kate Jaw, I hope you won't come back, Molly.

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Speaker 3: I'd be happy to you anytime.

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Speaker 1: Craig Magar is a reporter at the Detroit News. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Fast Politics, Crag. Just tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: about your beat and who you write for and what

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Speaker 1: you do.

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Speaker 5: So you write for the Detroit News newspaper, which is

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Speaker 5: a daily metro paper in southeast Michigan. I cover all

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Speaker 5: of Michigan politics, campaign coverage, state government coverage, all the

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Speaker 5: good stuff.

436
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Speaker 2: So what's happening in Michigan right now? Because this morning

437
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:54,560
Speaker 2: on Morning Show, they were talking about how Michigan GOP

438
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 2: has gotten into fisticuffs.

439
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a little bit like trying to explain in

440
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 5: the unexplainable, but there's a major, major rift in Michigan

441
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 5: Republican politics. I mean, if you go back a couple decades,

442
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,159
Speaker 5: the Michigan Republican Party was known nationally for being one

443
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 5: of the strongest gops in the entire country. There's a

444
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 5: lot of establishment Republican money in this state. Many of

445
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 5: your listeners have probably heard the name Betsy de Vos before. Yes,

446
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 5: the Voss family, the members of a family are some

447
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 5: of the biggest Republican donors in the entire country. They're

448
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 5: based in the Grand Rapids area here in Michigan. They

449
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 5: give millions of dollars each cycle to Republican causes. There's

450
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,199
Speaker 5: a lot of other business leaders that are of a

451
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,879
Speaker 5: similar similar mindset that are our big donors here, and

452
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 5: that has allowed up until recent years, the Republican Party

453
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 5: here to be a very strong, influential political operation. Then

454
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 5: came Donald Trump and a lot of that fell apart.

455
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 2: Okay, so let's talk about this. I feel like Michigan

456
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 2: is a great example of a state where was a

457
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 2: purple state.

458
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really was a purple state. You have right

459
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 1: wing that is as right as and you have the

460
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 1: Michigan militia.

461
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, what happened. Michigan is a state where there is

462
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 5: a very strong libertarian saction. I think it's partly because

463
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 5: of you know, the wilderness and there's a lot of

464
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,640
Speaker 5: rural areas of this state further to the north, and

465
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 5: there's a strong you know, justin Amash's from here. There's

466
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 5: a lot of libertarian minded people who call Michigan home.

467
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 5: And this state has gone from during the Obama years.

468
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 5: You know, it was a light blue state. I mean

469
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 5: Obama won Michigan pretty easily during his two elections. But

470
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 5: there's something about Donald Trump that makes this state more competitives,

471
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 5: I would say. I mean in the first election in

472
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 5: twenty sixteen, when Trump ran, he became the first Republican

473
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 5: to win Michigan since nineteen eighty eight. He's been able

474
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,400
Speaker 5: to win over some voter who either stay home during

475
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 5: a lot of normal elections or who are Union voters

476
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 5: who have kind of fallen away from the Democratic Party

477
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 5: for one reason or another. And that those kind of

478
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 5: two factors allowed Trump to do just enough to make

479
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 5: these races close. In twenty sixteen, he won the state

480
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,719
Speaker 5: by ten thousand votes. In twenty twenty, he you know,

481
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 5: he lost by but he lost by three percentage points.

482
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 5: It was one hundred and fifty four thousand vote margin.

483
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 5: But it's something about only Trump. No one else in Michigan, right,

484
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 5: no one else, no other GOP candidate has really been

485
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 5: able to capture what Trump is doing and move the

486
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 5: ball forward. And Trump and his allies in the state

487
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 5: have kind of been so divisive with how they have

488
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 5: operated and how they've gone about their business that they've

489
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 5: really damaged the state party apparatus. They've damaged the Republicans

490
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 5: standing in the state legislature. So in twenty twenty two,

491
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 5: all of the candidates Trump endorsed for governor, Secretary of State,

492
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 5: and attorney general on this midterm election got the Republican nominations.

493
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 5: They didn't have a lot of money, they didn't have

494
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 5: institutional backing, they didn't have campaign experience, and they all

495
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 5: kind of fall sell flat on their faces with voters.

496
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 5: I mean, this is a state that is a battleground state,

497
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 5: but the Democrat, the Democratic governor Gretchen Whitmer beat Tudor Dixon,

498
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 5: the Republican nominee for governor, by eleven percentage points. The

499
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 5: closest race at the top of the ticket in twenty

500
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 5: twenty two was nine percentage points for attorney general. Democrats

501
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 5: won control of the state legislature for the first time

502
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 5: in forty years. So now Democrats control every lever of

503
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 5: state government. And you know, just you know, six years ago,

504
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 5: Republicans controlled every lever of state government. So this is

505
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,959
Speaker 5: left the Republicans in a state where they have no power,

506
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 5: They don't have the money that they used to have,

507
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 5: they don't really have anything going for them with initate

508
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 5: recruitment at this moment, and they're kind of in the desert.

509
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: I want you to just talk for a minute about

510
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: Tutor Dixon, one of my favorite Trump candidates. That was

511
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: a candidate he just picked because he liked her, right, Yeah, I.

512
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 5: Think that was a lot of it. I think there

513
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 5: was a hope that from Tutor Dixon's profile that she

514
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 5: had kind of this profile where the people in the

515
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,120
Speaker 5: know on the GOP side were like, if everything came together,

516
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 5: this is gonna be a great candidate. If all this

517
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 5: potential that Tutor Dixon seemed to have. Her ability to

518
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 5: you know, talk to people. She had experience in some

519
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 5: level of broadcast conservative radio, and also movies, Yeah, doing

520
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 5: very low, low level horror films. There's a movie that

521
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 5: you can find on Amazon where she's getting basically destroyed

522
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 5: and beaten up by a zombie and there's blood flying everywhere.

523
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 2: Who among us.

524
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 5: So she's a very outsider candidate. No one had really

525
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 5: heard her name before she emerged as a gubernatorial candidate,

526
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 5: and it was kind of like Trump's people, people who

527
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 5: were associated with Trump found this person that they thought

528
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 5: they could throw out there and would be the perfect

529
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 5: person to take on Governor Wimmer. That's what the Republicans

530
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 5: kept saying. You know, we're getting our male leaders of

531
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 5: the Republican Legislature are being made to look like fools

532
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 5: because they keep saying insensitive things. We need a female

533
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 5: candidate to really take this weakness away and we can

534
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 5: you know, start going after Governor Wimmer. That was the

535
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 5: idea that they had, but it didn't work because no

536
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 5: one knew or who Turner Dixon was. The donors were

537
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 5: hesitant to give to her because they didn't really know

538
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 5: who she was. The base of the party didn't really

539
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 5: like her that much because they weren't sure she was

540
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 5: far enough to the right. The people who were the

541
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 5: establishment didn't like her because they thought she was too

542
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,360
Speaker 5: closely tied to Trump. So kind of this whole package

543
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 5: that they thought was going to come together didn't really

544
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 5: fermit the way that they thought it would.

545
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 2: It's such an incredible unforced error to look at Tutor

546
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 2: Dixon and just to see like how Republicans just kept

547
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 2: screwing up. But there were also I mean, it just

548
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 2: was sort of a plethora of craziness. So now we

549
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 2: have this state.

550
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: Party that is like literally injuring each other. What is

551
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: the blowback from that?

552
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: Because I read that there's going to be that the

553
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 2: one guy is going to sue the other guy.

554
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's just absolutely wild.

555
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 2: Do you have talk us through this?

556
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 5: So this is the encapsulation of where the Michigan Republican

557
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 5: Party stands, and I think it's also captures where the

558
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 5: state parties from what I'm reading, where they'd stand in

559
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 5: some other battleground states. In February, the mischiganar Republican Party

560
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 5: elected a new share and there were a number of

561
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 5: people who are running who didn't have the political experience

562
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 5: that usually the share of this party has to run

563
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 5: what is a multi million dollar business. Essentially, you've got

564
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 5: to raise millions of dollars and you've got to figure

565
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 5: out how to spend and spend wisely millions upon millions

566
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 5: of dollars. The person the Republican delegates chose to do

567
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 5: this is a woman by the name of Christina Karamo,

568
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 5: who ran for secretary of State. Extremely aligned with Trump,

569
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 5: has various conspiracy theory ideas about all sorts of things

570
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 5: that she has voiced in the past. She lost for

571
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 5: secretary of State by fourteen percentage points to the Democratic

572
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 5: Secretary of State, Jocelyn Bencent. Trump did not even endorse

573
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 5: her for party chair. Trump endorsed someone else, but Karamo

574
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 5: still won with this race. So you've had this person

575
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 5: as party chair who doesn't really know a ton about

576
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 5: how to successfully run campaigns.

577
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 6: I don't think you really need that as party chair.

578
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 6: I think it should be okay, yeah, no, I mean

579
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,719
Speaker 6: she's gotten in here. She had promised to overall ah

580
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 6: the party operates. She had promised to make it very transparent.

581
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 6: But now four or five months into her tenure is chair,

582
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 6: a lot of the Republican insiders who loved her previously

583
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 6: are now saying she hasn't made the party transparent. She's

584
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 6: not telling us how much she's raised. There's a lot

585
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 6: of questions if she's raised any money at all. She's

586
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 6: not really telling them. Also how she's spending the money

587
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 6: that she has brought in. And the delegates and the

588
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 6: insiders that chose her for this position are starting to

589
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 6: become frustrated with what she's doing and they've demanded more transparency.

590
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 6: So at this meeting that occurred in northern Michigan on Saturday,

591
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 6: some a small group of Republicans delegates had shown up

592
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 6: to this State Committee meeting where there's like one hundred

593
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 6: people who are part of the State Committee. They get

594
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 6: a participate in the meeting. Definitely.

595
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 5: Usually the meetings opened up to other Republicans if they

596
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 5: want to watch. They did not let these other Republican

597
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 5: delegates in the room.

598
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 2: Why not.

599
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 5: Kromo's team is very worried that information they share is

600
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 5: going to get leaked to people like me other reporters.

601
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 5: Then they don't want they think it's going to be

602
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 5: spun in some negative way. That's going to make them

603
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 5: look bad. So they're very sensitive about how they give

604
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 5: out information. That's the excuse that they keep using, so

605
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 5: they want to let these people in. This guy by

606
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 5: the name of James Chapman had driven from Wayne County,

607
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 5: which is in the southeastern part of Michigan, all the

608
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 5: way up to Claire, which is in northern central Michigan,

609
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 5: and he was infuriated that they would not let him

610
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 5: into this meeting room to watch this meeting. He was

611
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 5: outside the meeting room and he started at one point

612
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 5: jiggling the doorknob of one of the doors is the

613
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 5: meeting room, jiggling it up and down inside the room.

614
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 5: He's going to try to get in Netwig.

615
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean why not.

616
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 5: The Claire County Republican Party chair is at this meeting.

617
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 5: He's inside the meeting room. He's standing there. This is

618
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 5: happening in his county. He notices the doorknobs jiggling. He

619
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 5: thinks it's a staff member of the hotel where they're

620
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 5: having this meeting, so he walks over to try to

621
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 5: open the door. As he's walking over to open the door,

622
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 5: there's a small window in the door. Chapman gives him

623
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 5: the middle finger through the window.

624
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 2: I can't love this story anymore.

625
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 6: Go on, yes, continue, the Young the chair sees this

626
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 6: middle finger.

627
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 5: He doesn't know who's doing it. He told me that

628
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 5: he thought it was a staffer of those when he

629
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 5: was going to open the door to yell at this

630
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 5: staff or why are you giving me the middle finger?

631
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 5: He opens the door. Upon opening the door, he says

632
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 5: he was kicked in the crouch by James Chapman immediately

633
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 5: opens the door. He gets kicked in this. I love

634
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 5: the story so much, sense of the Bavaria. And then

635
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 5: as he's in pain, Chatman, according to De Young, charges him,

636
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 5: picks him up, and throws him on a chair. Chapman

637
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 5: has a differing account of this. He alleges that the

638
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 5: Young swung at him, and then once Deyong swung at him,

639
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 5: he took his glasses off and was ready to engage

640
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 5: in a knock down fistfight. So oh good as it ended,

641
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 5: de Young had believed he believed. He went to the

642
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 5: emergency room and said he thought he had a broken rib.

643
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 5: He was telling other people that his dentures had been broken.

644
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 2: Wait is he old?

645
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 5: I don't know his exactly ask.

646
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 2: But I mean, I feel like denthers would mean that

647
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: he is.

648
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 5: He's not a young person either. James Chapman is not

649
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 5: a young person either.

650
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, all right, so anyway, so but did

651
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 2: his dentures break or now he.

652
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 5: Did not tell me about the dentist thing, but okay,

653
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 5: to find out later. He had told everyone else who

654
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 5: was at the meeting that his teeth had been broken

655
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 5: in this fight and he was going to press charges.

656
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 5: He's told everyone I want to see Chapman penalize arrested

657
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 5: for this. There's been no arrest that we know of

658
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 5: up until this point. The meeting went on, Chapman went

659
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 5: to his car, the police came, and it all eventually

660
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,479
Speaker 5: they separated and the meeting went on. We don't know

661
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 5: what the Claire police are going to do about this,

662
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:49,479
Speaker 5: if they're going to do anything about it.

663
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: Jesse has a really good point that is not about

664
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: the hilariousness of this. I want you to talk about

665
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: what you are in Michigan on the ground, and Purple

666
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: stayed likely blue at this point. But what are you

667
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: seeing about national politics that the rest of us are

668
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: not saying.

669
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 5: I hear people say that you know, they think that

670
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 5: Trump is going to lose relatively easily, you know, that

671
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 5: it's going to be a wide margin that they think

672
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 5: he doesn't have much of a chance to win another term.

673
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 5: But what I hear and see on the ground is

674
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 5: that a lot of the people that have been with

675
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 5: Trump previously are still with him, right. No, I think

676
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 5: that there is some undercounting from the national level of

677
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 5: the chances that Trump does have to not only be

678
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 5: the nominee because he has a large lead in all

679
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 5: papolling there, but to give Biden an extremely close race.

680
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 5: I mean, think about this that in twenty twenty, Trump

681
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 5: only lost by three points in Michigan. And you know,

682
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 5: the question that I think is on the minds of

683
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 5: a lot of these swing voters that I run into

684
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 5: in Michigan is, you know, has Biden given them a

685
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 5: reason to give him another term?

686
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 6: Right?

687
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 5: And that's on Biden at this point. I mean, the

688
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 5: idea that they are gonna because Trump is simply on

689
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 5: the ballot, vote for Biden, that is not what I'm

690
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 5: hearing from people. I Mean, Trump was just here a

691
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,240
Speaker 5: couple of weeks ago, and there was a huge crowd

692
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 5: for him in Oakland, County, which is an area he

693
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 5: has not done well in. There seems to be within

694
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 5: the GOP, this GOP that has suffered a lot of

695
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 5: losses during his tenure in Michigan, they are not at

696
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 5: this point stepping away from him. I mean, it seems

697
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 5: like they're still ready to jump on board with him.

698
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 5: I don't really know what to make of that, but

699
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 5: it's just something that I'm noticing.

700
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 1: I Mean, it definitely seems like from everything we're reading

701
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: and reporting and seeing, is that Trump is going to

702
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: be the nominee unless he gets struck by Lightton.

703
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 5: I think that's true. I mean, it's also people, I

704
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 5: think discount the fact that, like in Michigan, the individuals

705
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 5: who run these state parties, the people that are going

706
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 5: to be in charge of administering all of these various

707
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 5: contests that are going to decide who the nominee is,

708
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 5: a lot of these people are Trump people, right, And

709
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 5: that's going to help him as well. I mean, not

710
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 5: only is there support for him to run again within

711
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 5: the GOP, but the mechanism for deciding how these races

712
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 5: take shape is also in his favor. And there's so

713
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 5: many challengers that it's just a really uphill battle for

714
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 5: these people to try to make inroads.

715
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 2: I mean, he really installed his people.

716
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 5: He has been the dominant face of the party all

717
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 5: the way back to sixteen basically maybe a little bit

718
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 5: before that. And in the way these state parties work

719
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 5: for them to change, it's delayed, you know, maybe four

720
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 5: or funk years. So I mean for the next four

721
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,919
Speaker 5: or five years, the state party in states like miss

722
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 5: Michigan and elsewhere are going to be dominated by people

723
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 5: who are a lot of them got into politics because

724
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 5: of Donald Trump. I mean, that's just the easiest way

725
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 5: to put it.

726
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 2: That's really terrifying.

727
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: I want to ask you, like, Biden World has been

728
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: really trying hard to sort of take their show on

729
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: the road and show how their infrastructure spending effects normal voters.

730
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 2: Are you seeing that on the ground. Do you think

731
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 2: voters understand that, get that, see that, appreciate that.

732
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 5: That's a great question. And how much are they grasping

733
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 5: the connections between what is happening with various projects, what's

734
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 5: happening with all the funding that has poured through state

735
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 5: government offers and are they giving that credit to Joe Biden?

736
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 5: Are they giving that credit to their state legislator or

737
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 5: the governor of our state, where it is a very

738
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 5: well known governor. I mean, this is a governor. Everyone

739
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 5: in the state of Michigan, Gresha and Wetbory knows her

740
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 5: largely a lot of because of her actions during the

741
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 5: COVID pandemic. She's become I'm just such a well known

742
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 5: person here. I think she gets a lot of credit

743
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 5: for anything that happens, especially among Democrats and people that

744
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 5: are in the know. They credit her for some of

745
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 5: the increased spending that has taken place, and I don't

746
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 5: know if they're crediting Biding. I mean that's the thing

747
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,280
Speaker 5: that one of the things from covering the twenty twenty

748
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 5: campaign is Biden did not have large rallies. I mean,

749
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 5: there were not rallies in Michigan. We don't know at

750
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 5: this point what that looks like. I keep thinking about

751
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 5: as I prepare to cover the next presidential campaign. What

752
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 5: does it look like for Biden to have an event

753
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 5: on the campus of University of Michigan or Michigan State University.

754
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 5: Do students show up for that? Are we going to

755
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 5: see large crowds at those types of events? Are there

756
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 5: going to be people you know, pooring out to go

757
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,919
Speaker 5: out doors for them. Democrats in the state say that

758
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 5: because if Trump is on the ballot, that that's going

759
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 5: to spur all these people to turn out and continue

760
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 5: to continue to give because they want to stop Trump

761
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 5: does That is at the same as being for Biden.

762
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 5: I don't know.

763
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: Do you think your governor is eyeing the presidency in

764
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,240
Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight.

765
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 5: I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, because from

766
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 5: the standpoint where I am, you know, I hear about

767
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 5: this every day, and I have relatives that ask me

768
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 5: about this all the time. You know, you look at

769
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 5: the national polling and people don't know who she is.

770
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 5: Still the average voter who lives in another state doesn't

771
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 5: know much about her yet, maybe compared to like Gavin Newsom,

772
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 5: who they hear about mores but it does, you know,

773
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 5: you can see in her comments as it's gone along.

774
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,280
Speaker 5: But now she's kind of opening the door to maybe

775
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 5: in twenty twenty eight, maybe I would be open to that.

776
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 5: It's difficult though, because at the end of twenty twenty

777
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,879
Speaker 5: six that will be the end of her second term

778
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 5: as governor. What does she do in the time between

779
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 5: when her second term ends, and when the race for

780
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 5: the presidency unfolds, can she stay relevant in that time?

781
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 5: She is very good at raising money, She's very politically savvy.

782
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 5: Even the Republicans would acknowledge that she loves cam painting,

783
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,959
Speaker 5: she loves the political game. Do I think that that's

784
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 5: definitely something that she thinks about and would want to

785
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 5: do if the opportunity provided I came forward. I think yes.

786
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 5: Will that opportunity unfold in a way where it can happen?

787
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 5: I think that's what remains to be seeing.

788
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,479
Speaker 2: Thank you, Craig. I hope you'll come back.

789
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me those fun Hi.

790
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 2: It's Mollie and I am wildly excited that for the

791
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 2: first time, Fast Politics, the show you're listening to right now,

792
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 2: is going to have merch for sale over at shop

793
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 2: dot fastpoliticspod dot com. You can now buy shirts.

794
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Speaker 1: Hats, hoodies, and toe bags with our incredible designs.

795
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 2: We've heard your cries to spread the word.

796
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Speaker 1: About our podcast and get a tow bag with my

797
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Speaker 1: adorable Leo the Rescue Puppy on it, and now you

798
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799
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 2: Thanks for your support.

800
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: Chris Cadego is Politico's California bureau chief.

801
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 2: Welcome to Fastpolitics.

802
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 4: Chris, thank you so much.

803
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 2: So tell us exactly what you do and what your

804
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 2: beat is.

805
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 4: So I recently moved from Washington back to California. We

806
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 4: were very excited to do it. Politico is doing a

807
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 4: big expansion in the state, and I am the bureau

808
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,240
Speaker 4: chief in the state. So I cover politics, write about

809
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,919
Speaker 4: the intersection of politics and a whole bunch of kind

810
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 4: of industries from the state capitol. Write a lot about

811
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 4: Gavin Newsom. We have, of course the money folks in

812
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 4: Silicon Valley and southern California, and you know, there's a

813
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 4: bunch of exciting elections coming up here. There's the possibility,

814
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 4: I know folks are trying to shoot it down that

815
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 4: the Republican presidential primary the California might matter in that

816
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 4: one if Trump doesn't run away with it early. And

817
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,760
Speaker 4: there's a Senate race Diane find Side is retiring folks

818
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 4: like Adam Schiff and Katie Porter and some others including

819
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 4: Congresswoman Barber Lee or in that race. So it's it's

820
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 4: kind of a it's a real moment in California where

821
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 4: some of these offices with older folks are turning over.

822
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 4: Talk about Nancy Pelosi leaving the speakership and sort of

823
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 4: a changing of the guard. There some younger leaders like

824
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 4: Pete Aguilar stepping up and kind of creating relationships with donors.

825
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 4: So it's an exciting time. I'm from here. I used

826
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 4: to cover Jerry Brown before covering you know, Biden, and

827
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 4: folks like Kamala Harris. So it's there's not I mean,

828
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 4: you guys know, journalism, while there's not a lot of

829
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 4: opportunities when you can like go home and not be

830
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 4: one of the seventy people chasing Joe Manchin around with

831
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 4: your cell phone and recorder on and actually, you know,

832
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 4: report on races and people where there's the space is

833
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 4: a little bit less crowded. So's it's a lot of

834
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 4: it's a lot of fun. We're happy to be back here.

835
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about Governor Newsom because

836
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 2: he's really kind of captured the national spotlight. Is he

837
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 2: just cooling his jets for twenty eight? Does do you

838
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 2: feel like are you seeing him trying to make moves

839
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 2: for twenty four? It also seems like he's sort of

840
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: coming from the cold he was not a favorite and

841
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 2: national Democrats, and now he's sort of moved that. There's

842
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 2: a sense that he's a little more popular now. Talk

843
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 2: to me about the evolution of Gavin Newsom.

844
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think he's, you know, in the last year,

845
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 4: there's a sense that he's become more of a team player.

846
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 4: There was a time after we at Politico had broken

847
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 4: the huge news on the overturning of Robi Wade and

848
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 4: the Dobbs decision, where Newsom came out really called out

849
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 4: a party. A lot of folks took it personally. Nancy

850
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 4: Pelosi took it personally, someone he's known a long time.

851
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,320
Speaker 4: She Jamie Harrison at the DNC, A lot of folks

852
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 4: in the White House around Biden saying that this was

853
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 4: all just kind of preening by Newsome, that he's trying

854
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 4: to draw attention to himself. And Newsom's point at the

855
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 4: time was like, this is going to be the fight

856
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,360
Speaker 4: of not only the twenty twenty two mid terms, but

857
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 4: the twenty twenty four presidential race and onward. And I

858
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 4: think his thing was sort of you know, I mean,

859
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 4: not to sort of overstate it, but they looked at

860
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,280
Speaker 4: it a little bit like a kind of Paul Revere moment,

861
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 4: you know, for the party and for Democrats, and that

862
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 4: rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. There was

863
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 4: not really a strong sense at the time. There's a

864
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 4: lot of complications for some Nationally. Kamala Airis is someone

865
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 4: he's known and sort of grown up with in politics,

866
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 4: and certainly they share a lot of the same donor base,

867
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 4: they share a lot of the same supporters. She obviously,

868
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 4: you know, despite all her sort of troubles in the

869
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 4: VP's office, you know, some of which are of her

870
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 4: own making and some of which are just the nature

871
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 4: of the office, she's still sort of in the in

872
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 4: the you know, driver's seat, and you know, among this

873
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 4: next generation of Democrats, and it would be harder for

874
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 4: Newsome than it would other others in this next generation

875
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 4: of Democrats to lead frog hurt just because there's so

876
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 4: many kind of tie ins to both of them. There was,

877
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 4: you know, a lot of relief among Newsome and his

878
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 4: folks when Biden when it was clear that Biden was

879
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 4: going ahead and running, because it just kind of essentially

880
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 4: took the question off the table for him. He was

881
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 4: never going to primary Biden in any of these states.

882
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 4: It was just never going to happen, and so yeah,

883
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 4: I mean basically this is keep your name out there,

884
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 4: keep yourself fresh, you know, stay in the national spotlight,

885
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 4: raise money, try to be a voice for the party,

886
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 4: try to be a good soldier for Biden. And I

887
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 4: think that's kind of where he's at right now.

888
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: One of the first things that happened to Gavin Newsom

889
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 1: was that there was this recall election. That is one

890
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 1: of the sort of weirdnesses of California politics is that

891
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: you can have a recall election. It was a while ago,

892
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: but I want to ask you, is there any residual,

893
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: like goodwill or bad will from that? Did the recall

894
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 1: election have any effect on newsome trajectory as governor?

895
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 4: I think, you know, you're seeing a little bit of

896
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 4: a you know what, doesn't kill him, make some stronger

897
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 4: effect from that recall. I think he's probably matured a

898
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 4: little bit. There's there's obviously, like something humbling about having

899
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 4: to run again so shortly after winning election. You're talking

900
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 4: about sort of like the depths of COVID. A lot

901
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 4: of anger out there from businesses, from voters, a lot

902
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 4: of people pointing the fingers, a lot of parents pissed

903
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 4: that schools were closed, and so it was just like

904
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 4: a really rough time for overall. There was some technicalities

905
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,240
Speaker 4: around the signatures at the time, they got a long

906
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 4: extension to get the signatures which allowed that and be

907
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 4: called to qualify. It didn't really look like he was

908
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,800
Speaker 4: ever going to lose that. Recall, you remember, like Larry

909
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 4: Elder was the Republican candidate who was you know, close

910
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 4: to the sucking up to Trump and sort of running

911
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 4: as as a maga Republican in California is not going

912
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 4: to get you very far. But you know, for new

913
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 4: some you know, you emerged from that, he was able

914
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 4: to basically you know, the silver lining rays essentially an

915
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 4: unlimited amount of money. And you go back to looking

916
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 4: at like you know, Scott Walker in Wisconsin or any

917
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:18,720
Speaker 4: of these folks who have faced it. Not to comment

918
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 4: on where his career might go after the governorship, but

919
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 4: I think it's it's sort of only strengthen his position

920
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 4: in the state. Not a lot of pushback or equals

921
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 4: to him in California when you're talking about lawmakers or

922
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 4: any other players.

923
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: Today, let's talk about this Democratic Senate race.

924
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 2: It's a big one. It Schiff Katie Porter, Barbara Lay.

925
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 1: There are other candidates, but it seems like those three

926
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,240
Speaker 1: are the main What are you seeing?

927
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 2: What do you? Where does this go? When is the primary?

928
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 4: The primary is next spring. There's city unique possibility in California,

929
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 4: fairly unique that two of these Democrats, if nobody coalesces

930
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 4: around a single Republican, that we could see a rematch

931
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 4: from the spring primary in November. Again, so conceivably it

932
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 4: could be Adam Schiff and Katie Porter in November, in

933
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,359
Speaker 4: which case it would probably be sort of a very

934
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 4: personal type contest because there's not a huge amount of

935
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 4: differences on policy. Obviously there's differences in personality. Right now,

936
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 4: I would stay for the last few months since these

937
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 4: folks got into race, it's been kind of the quiet

938
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 4: work of gathering endorsements and mostly raising money. And we

939
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 4: saw Shift raised over eight million in the second quarter

940
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 4: of a year. Kitty Porter's numbers aren't out there yet,

941
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 4: Barbara Lee raised another million, and so Ship is basically

942
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 4: built up this workshaest of nearly thirty million dollars. California

943
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 4: is super expensive to run these campaign ads in over

944
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 4: the last few weeks of the campaign or before the primary.

945
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 4: And so he'll obviously need that money. But yeah, there's

946
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 4: been a huge focus on shift nationally, given this censure

947
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 4: in the House, and really given like Trump's sort of

948
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:10,320
Speaker 4: resurgence amid all these kind of scandals. It reminds folks

949
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 4: that shiff was there during the first impeachment, and that's

950
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 4: like exactly what Ship wants is to be on a spotlight.

951
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 4: I think Porter has been a little quieter, but you know,

952
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 4: she's popular and she has a real following among folks

953
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,359
Speaker 4: with her whiteboard and it's a fun race in California.

954
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 4: Folks for used to for so long Barbara Boxer and

955
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 4: Diane Feinstein. I mean really since the early nineties. It

956
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,720
Speaker 4: just hasn't happened in a while. A news pointed Alex

957
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 4: Padilla to serve in Kamala Harris's old seat. Her race

958
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 4: was not very competitive in twenty sixteen, so this could

959
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 4: be the first real competitive race in years.

960
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 1: Let's talk about this for a second. Katie Porter has

961
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,879
Speaker 1: a very purple seat. Democrats really need to win back

962
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,839
Speaker 1: the House if they want to get stuff done. And

963
00:49:55,880 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 1: you know, really Democrats lost the House through California, Yeah,

964
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: and New York very annoyingly.

965
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 2: Two Democrats in California New York. So do you see

966
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 2: the party taking care of that seat?

967
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: Do you think that there is are there plethora of

968
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 1: Porter like candidates running forward, or is that seat just

969
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 1: gonna get thrown away?

970
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 4: Democrats are really gonna try to hold onto that seat.

971
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:23,839
Speaker 4: I mean, there's a legislator who's running there named Date Man,

972
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,439
Speaker 4: who's got a lot of parallels to Porter. They both

973
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 4: come from UC Irvine, both the lawyers, and so he

974
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 4: was kind of the early front runner there and still

975
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 4: might be. He raised I think over four hundred thousand

976
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 4: dollars in the last quarter. A lot of folks point

977
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 4: to this DUI he got a couple months ago, and

978
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 4: we remember asking Pete Aguilar, who is kind of stepping

979
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 4: in as the highest ranking California Democrat, about that and

980
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 4: whether it's gonna turn Democrats or the leadership in DC

981
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:58,240
Speaker 4: off on Man. And you know, Aguilar's answer at the time,

982
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 4: this is pretty recently, was like, you know, the filing

983
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,399
Speaker 4: period doesn't close for several months, so it was kind

984
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,800
Speaker 4: of a not all that subtle point he was making

985
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 4: that the party may not get behind Men there. And

986
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 4: there's another candidate running named Joanna Weiss, who's a Democrat.

987
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 4: That's the kind of seat where if you put your

988
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 4: name down and you run kind of a credible campaign,

989
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 4: the money will slow to you. It's just such a

990
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,720
Speaker 4: competitive seat that you're in the position. And not taking

991
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 4: anything away from Katie Porter, she was obviously a prolific

992
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 4: fundraiser and really built kind of a brand around herself,

993
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 4: but there is something to you being in these sort

994
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 4: of purple seats that are highly contested, where, like I said,

995
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 4: the money will come to you.

996
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 1: Oh see, that's very interesting and seems like an important

997
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: data point. There are all these house seats in California.

998
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 1: Democrats really did well in twenty eighteen with a lot

999
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: of those seats, and they give them back now. Because

1000
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: we're not on cable news, I can say this terrible

1001
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:02,760
Speaker 1: bad word that you're not supposed to say.

1002
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 2: As the state party. Gutten it shit together? Or are

1003
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:06,879
Speaker 2: we going to have you know what happened in New York.

1004
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 4: There's been a lot of figure pointing about like who's

1005
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 4: to blame for that? And I think part of it

1006
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 4: is it's a mid terms, right and they sort of

1007
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,359
Speaker 4: fought to a draw with Republicans. I think Republicans ended

1008
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 4: up picking up a seat, and there were some losses

1009
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 4: that you know, we're super close. In the Central Valley,

1010
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 4: Republicans have Kevin McCarthy. I mean, you know, regardless of

1011
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 4: what you think of Kevin McCarthy, he's from California. He

1012
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 4: has done over the years a pretty good job of

1013
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 4: recruiting candidates in some of these districts. He knows the

1014
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 4: state well, he knows the Central Valley well. David Valadeo

1015
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 4: is a good example of someone who can kind of

1016
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:45,879
Speaker 4: withstand being in one of these districts and is sort

1017
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 4: of locally connected enough and knows people enough that he

1018
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 4: can win. And so I think the question for Democrats

1019
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 4: is really how much is this road decision still going

1020
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 4: to reverberate and how much do they pick up from

1021
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 4: Biden at the top of the tip get, you know,

1022
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:04,879
Speaker 4: this being a higher turnout presidential election this time. When

1023
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 4: we asked Aguilar, I think I specifically asked him if

1024
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 4: Trump is the nominee, does that turn out more? You know,

1025
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 4: Republicans in some of these these swing areas. You don't

1026
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 4: think of these California Republicans, but there's a huge number

1027
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:20,919
Speaker 4: of that state. I mean, just given the sheer number

1028
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 4: of voters. There's a ton of Trump voters in California, right, Yeah,

1029
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 4: and now you are seem to think that Trump is

1030
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:30,880
Speaker 4: a net positive for Democrats that basically the specter of

1031
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,919
Speaker 4: Trump just turns folks out. They don't want Trump in there.

1032
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 4: With the Republican controlled House, that is going to really

1033
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 4: stir turnout for Democrats, you know, in the last couple elections,

1034
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 4: you know, the specter of Trump, or at least in

1035
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 4: the mid terms, it's harder to kind of campaign as

1036
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:47,840
Speaker 4: with Trump as the boogeyman when he's not actually on

1037
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 4: the ballot, with him potentially being the nominee, it does

1038
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:54,800
Speaker 4: give Democrats a sense that they could rally around that.

1039
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:57,359
Speaker 4: I know that's been the calling card for a few

1040
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 4: years now. But between that and a board and a

1041
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 4: whole lot of other issues in the state, there's going

1042
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 4: to be a bunch of ballot measures and bonds and

1043
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:08,879
Speaker 4: other things that could Democrats feel like could help turn

1044
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,240
Speaker 4: folks out for various issues.

1045
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of like ballot initiatives, you know,

1046
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 1: sort of state legislation that has been to address the

1047
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: fall of row things like that. Can Democrats run on

1048
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:25,879
Speaker 1: that are those winners for Democrats.

1049
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 4: I mean, Democrats certainly think that they are California you know,

1050
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 4: gap venusom after that side of just a long, you know,

1051
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 4: big raft of bills to basically make this kind of

1052
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 4: an island, you know, a place that people could come

1053
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 4: from other states. They at one point they were putting

1054
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 4: up billboards basically saying, you know, you can come to California.

1055
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 4: It's been a huge issue for so long. Like I

1056
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:57,399
Speaker 4: can remember being these campaign things like so many years ago,

1057
00:54:57,600 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 4: and there were always these lines in the speech here

1058
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 4: about protect road way.

1059
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:04,359
Speaker 7: And all of that, and you kind of think back

1060
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 7: at the time and you're thinking, like, why are they

1061
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 7: even talking about that, Like that happened so many years ago,

1062
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 7: and it was just it was like it was so taken,

1063
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 7: you know, for granted by a lot of voters that

1064
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 7: the fact that that you know, is not a protection nationally.

1065
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:22,319
Speaker 4: Now, and the fact that you have Republicans out there,

1066
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 4: you know, from Pence to a whole lot of folks

1067
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 4: in this you know, live wire Republican presidential primary talking

1068
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 4: about nash Fan talking about all those things regardless of

1069
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 4: what's in the state constitution in terms of protections it

1070
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 4: does keep the issue really sort of front burner when

1071
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 4: you have people wanting to go further in the Republican party.

1072
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 4: It's a top line item among Democrats on the Republican side.

1073
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,879
Speaker 4: I mean, not to really change the topic, but in California,

1074
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 4: you know, there's a real issue with wages not keeping

1075
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:55,760
Speaker 4: up with the cost of living. I mean, it's gotten

1076
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 4: super expensive. There's an issue with you know, homelessness that's

1077
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,239
Speaker 4: gone on and made a lot worse by the pandemic.

1078
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 4: There's a lot of sort of quality of life. There's

1079
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 4: a report from folks last week and the AG talking

1080
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 4: about the rise and crime like that is real. You know,

1081
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 4: these are not just Republican talking points. Some of these

1082
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 4: numbers are really up. The homeless count in LA was up,

1083
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 4: and so people look at that and I don't know

1084
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 4: that it's gonna you know, it's always taught for Republicans

1085
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,919
Speaker 4: to pick folks off in California, especially sort of these

1086
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:29,399
Speaker 4: voters who might be more in the middle, because they

1087
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 4: look at the national Party and they look at Trump

1088
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 4: and that's really what defines in their mind who Republicans are.

1089
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:37,319
Speaker 4: And so it's not an easy choice for some of

1090
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 4: these folks. But in somebody these swing districts, some of

1091
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 4: these older voters there, it can make a difference in

1092
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:44,919
Speaker 4: these races that come down to a few hundred votes.

1093
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 2: Chris, thank you so much. I hope you will come back.

1094
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I really hope you please have me back.

1095
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 1: A moment Jesse Cannon, Maley Jong Fast.

1096
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 2: The dumbest member of Senator, possibly the dumbest member of

1097
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 2: the whole entire body, Tommy Tuberville.

1098
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 5: He he doesn't goofed.

1099
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 1: Yes, he said that you shouldn't discriminate against voydetlist was

1100
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 1: the sort of nugget of it. That guy, you'll remember him,

1101
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 1: He went on CNN last night and in typical moronic

1102
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 1: Republican fashion, he went back to his usual doubling down.

1103
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 1: So that guy, Thomas Tuberville, perhaps the dumbest member of

1104
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 1: the Senate, the male Marsha Blackburn. He has been holding

1105
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 1: up all of the military appointments because he's mad at

1106
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: Biden abortion. So Tommy Tuberville and his pro white supremacist views,

1107
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 1: he is our moment of fuckery, because why shouldn't you be.

1108
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

1109
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds

1110
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

1111
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

1112
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.