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Speaker 1: Hey, it's Rebecca Greenfield, the host of The Paycheck. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to the third installment of our conversation series about women, work,

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Speaker 1: money and sexism. This week we bring you our final

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Speaker 1: chat for now. The story of pay for women in

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Speaker 1: law is a familiar one. Female lawyers make a lot

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Speaker 1: less money than the men do. Women only make up

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Speaker 1: about of partners at firms, and among partners there's a

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Speaker 1: forty four percent pay gap, all of which makes Michelle

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Speaker 1: Roberts's career remarkable. Michelle grew up in public housing in

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Speaker 1: the Bronx and went on to build a reputation as

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Speaker 1: a skilled trial attorney. She became the first woman to

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Speaker 1: have the NBA Players Association, that's the union that represents

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Speaker 1: the players when they negotiate with the NBA. She talks

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Speaker 1: with Emily Basilon, a lawyer by training who chose a

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Speaker 1: different path. She became a journalist and is also a

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Speaker 1: lecturer at Yale Law School. We're going to pick up

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Speaker 1: the conversation with Michelle talking about her early career. When

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Speaker 1: I decided to become a lawyer, I frankly decided to

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Speaker 1: be a public defender. My background was such that I

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Speaker 1: had grown up with people who, when they did get

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Speaker 1: in trouble, could not afford good lawyers. And so best

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Speaker 1: job I've ever had. I loved it. I did it

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Speaker 1: for eight years. It's a very tough job to do,

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Speaker 1: especially as you begin to represent people that I'm charged

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Speaker 1: with more serious offenses and and the stakes become higher.

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Speaker 1: So at some point, I frankly just punked out. I

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Speaker 1: couldn't take anymore. So I decided to do civil and

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Speaker 1: that was the transition to two law firms UM, initially

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Speaker 1: with small firms and then ultimately I went and moved

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Speaker 1: on to law firms. And frankly, the only reason, and

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Speaker 1: it's just true that I decided to go to big law,

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Speaker 1: was I had two nieces who I promised my mom

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Speaker 1: I would help to put through college. So I ended

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Speaker 1: up at scanton Um doing trial work. By doing it

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Speaker 1: within the context of corporate and commercial law. I enjoyed

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Speaker 1: law school. I suspect you did too, which is why

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Speaker 1: you're still in that environment. But there was no way

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Speaker 1: in the world I could consider having gone through that

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Speaker 1: process and not engage immediately in the practice of law.

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Speaker 1: And as I understand your transition UM after law school,

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Speaker 1: you didn't kind of want to practice huh honey, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's even perhaps stranger than that, or I wonder if

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Speaker 1: you'll think it's strangers. So I graduated from college and

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Speaker 1: worked as a journalist for four years, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: see an obvious way to move into the kind of

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Speaker 1: X job that I wanted. I didn't even know this

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Speaker 1: word at the time, but I wanted to be like

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Speaker 1: a narrative, long form magazine journalists. So when I went

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Speaker 1: to law school was um a kind of act of

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Speaker 1: not exactly desperation, but like a way of of restarting.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to go back to school, but also I

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Speaker 1: was hoping to get a better job in journalism, which

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Speaker 1: was a little bit nutty and um and not the

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Speaker 1: cheapest way to arrive at that destination. But I also

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Speaker 1: was opened the idea of practicing law, and so I

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Speaker 1: thought when I started, like, well, see what I think

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Speaker 1: about this, And what became clear to me pretty quickly

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Speaker 1: was that while I was really interested in the ideas,

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Speaker 1: I was not really cut out to be a lawyer.

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Speaker 1: I never wanted to stand up in a trial, right,

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Speaker 1: So I think the really thrilling things about being a

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Speaker 1: lawyer were kind of not a great match for my skills,

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Speaker 1: and and then I got lucky and I ended up

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Speaker 1: getting to do the things in journalism I was hoping

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Speaker 1: to do in my own work life. The thing that

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Speaker 1: has bothered me the most has been how little I

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Speaker 1: have known about the salaries of the people around me,

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Speaker 1: because I've worked for private companies at which that information

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Speaker 1: is not available, And so there have been moments where

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Speaker 1: I've been, well, I actually care, like probably too much

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Speaker 1: about fairness, and so when fairness it can be debilitating, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, to me, I'm not someone who cares about

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Speaker 1: making a lot of money, but when I think that

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Speaker 1: other people around me are getting paid better than I

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Speaker 1: get suspicious and um ornery about it. Just about every

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Speaker 1: law firm, the higher earners are men and women have

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Speaker 1: to ask themselves if that's really because of the reality

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Speaker 1: that they bring in more money? Um, is it really

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Speaker 1: that they are more valuable than than than than female

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Speaker 1: partners are because of despair already is so glaring you

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Speaker 1: can't you can't not notice it. But for me as

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Speaker 1: a woman, because I like you, I mean, I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to pretend I didn't care about what I was making,

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Speaker 1: but I frankly never dreamed that I was going to

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Speaker 1: be making the money I ultimately made, and so therefore

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Speaker 1: thought I was lucky until I saw what some of

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Speaker 1: my male counterparts were making, and I said, well, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, okay, now what what's what's the real differentiator here?

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Speaker 1: And how did you find out? Like? How does that?

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Speaker 1: Because the partners are told, um what what each partner

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Speaker 1: is making, so you you knew and you either thought, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm lucky to be here, or you did what I

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Speaker 1: did sometimes and said, well why is he why all

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Speaker 1: those he's making more money than I am? My momb lines,

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Speaker 1: I think it's probably it's uncomfortable. It creates a lot

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Speaker 1: of a lot of friction, and for some people that

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Speaker 1: creates a lot of self doubt and wonder about value.

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Speaker 1: But I think at the end of the day, there

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Speaker 1: should be transparency about compensation so people can be satisfied

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Speaker 1: or not satisfied that they're being treated fairly. What I

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Speaker 1: ended up doing was deciding that I could and I

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Speaker 1: didn't have the energy to worry about whether or not

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Speaker 1: I was not being compensated at a level because I

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Speaker 1: was a woman, or because I was black, or both.

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Speaker 1: But I ultimately decided to do was decide what I

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Speaker 1: thought I was worth and to pick a number that

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Speaker 1: would make me feel as if I was being valued appropriately.

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Speaker 1: And I simply would say that, then when calm time

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Speaker 1: came around, this is my number, And how did you

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Speaker 1: arrive at that number? I'm not going to pretend I

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Speaker 1: didn't take into consideration what the men around me were making.

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Speaker 1: So if there were someone in in in the in

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Speaker 1: the in the litigation group whose practice was as close

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Speaker 1: to mine as I could at least fathom, and if

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Speaker 1: he was making X, I wanted at least X to

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Speaker 1: the extent I could, I would try to find comparables

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Speaker 1: um and I did find comparables in at least in

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Speaker 1: terms of their practice. I insisted that I got at

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Speaker 1: least that number. Now, there would be occasions when I

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Speaker 1: would say, you know, I didn't have that greater year,

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Speaker 1: and so maybe I'm not necessarily going to get the

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Speaker 1: same number that Joe is, but I needed to at

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Speaker 1: least find out what I was comfortable with and and

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Speaker 1: and no matter what Joe was getting, if you get

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Speaker 1: this number, will you stay? If you don't get that number,

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Speaker 1: will you will you leave? And that's kind of how

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Speaker 1: I did it. I mean, I just in other words,

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Speaker 1: I decided what my value was and and and then

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Speaker 1: that was the number I've lived with. How does it

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Speaker 1: work in your world? Um, it's much more mysterious. Right,

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Speaker 1: So what you just described there is a frankness that's

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Speaker 1: bracing and perhaps useful. But then I also wonder if

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Speaker 1: it leads some people down the path of like obsessing

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Speaker 1: about money and comparisons all the time. Right, And you can,

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Speaker 1: but you know you can, but you can stop by

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Speaker 1: saying I mean, I think I think it's it's silly

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Speaker 1: not to be aware of what other people are being compensated.

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Speaker 1: But you need to stop at some point and say,

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Speaker 1: look that aside, do I want to stay here? And

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Speaker 1: what's the number that will keep me here? And you

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Speaker 1: kind of do that by not being necessarily guided by

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Speaker 1: the comparables, but cognizant of the comfortables, but really just

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Speaker 1: doing it some internal sort of self self evaluation of

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Speaker 1: where you think you deserve to be in the compensations

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Speaker 1: in scale. Well, what I like about that too is

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure of that. They're about the research

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Speaker 1: showing that women tend to not negotiate as hard for

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Speaker 1: themselves when they get new jobs, or when they're trying

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Speaker 1: to negotiate raises and you're talking about finding a way

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Speaker 1: to value yourself. That then you gives you the sense

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Speaker 1: of entitlement. And I mean that in a positive way,

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Speaker 1: to like go in and ask for it and kind

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Speaker 1: of make sure you get it right. I mean, at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, I had alternatives. Not everybody

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Speaker 1: has that luxury. I don't have any children, so I

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Speaker 1: had some flexibility in terms of being able to take

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Speaker 1: some risks. But then, and that's kind of how I

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Speaker 1: resolved it. I will tell you that in my current position,

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Speaker 1: I have both men and women on my staff. Our

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Speaker 1: rule is that if you want to ask for a

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Speaker 1: raise or bonus, the owner is on you. Over every

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Speaker 1: single year. I've been doing this for almost five years now.

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Speaker 1: They some women ask all the men do. Now with

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Speaker 1: young women, that's not the way we operate. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know, maybe and I don't have as many millennials

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Speaker 1: working for me as perhaps you're you're accustomed to dealing

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Speaker 1: with Emily, Are we getting better at this or not?

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Speaker 1: That isn't being able to as women insist that we

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Speaker 1: are valuable and and ask and ask four things like

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Speaker 1: raises and bonuses. I do notice a shift in how

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Speaker 1: young women think about issues like sexual harassment and their

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Speaker 1: sense of the way they should be treated in the

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Speaker 1: workplace and actually person you know, in their personal lives.

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Speaker 1: And I just don't think they put up with things

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Speaker 1: that I put up with in the nineties. And I

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Speaker 1: thought I was like a perfectly liberated person in the nineties.

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Speaker 1: And I watched them and I feel a lot of

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Speaker 1: respect and admiration for their unwillingness to tolerate like crappy behavior.

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Speaker 1: So here's the question I wanted to ask, Michelle, as

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Speaker 1: you are a woman, like literally in a man's world.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know the NBA in the offices can

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Speaker 1: be um, you know, there can be when women there,

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Speaker 1: but like on the basketball court, that is not the case.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure you are the first woman to have

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Speaker 1: your job. Just seems like that must be true. And

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Speaker 1: I wonder what that was like for you coming in

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Speaker 1: and how much you thought about, you know, your own

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Speaker 1: gender identity in that context. You know, it's gotten better.

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Speaker 1: But the legal profession, especially the areas that I practiced in,

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Speaker 1: are so male. I mean, they're not a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of my words, girl, trial lawyers, and so I grew

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Speaker 1: up professionally, at least working in environments where most of

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Speaker 1: my my my colleagues were men, most of my competitors

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Speaker 1: were men, and frankly, even when I as the public defender,

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Speaker 1: most of my clients were men. So I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: it's kind of been where I've been for the last

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Speaker 1: forty years. One of the funny things that that happened

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Speaker 1: as I was interviewing for my current job, because it

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Speaker 1: was obvious to the players that I was a girl.

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Speaker 1: There were players that I asked me, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: how are you going to be able to work in

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Speaker 1: this in this space as the only woman. You might

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Speaker 1: find yourself the only woman in a boardroom or in

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Speaker 1: a conference room or at a meeting. Um, are you

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Speaker 1: gonna be able to handle that? And I just started laughing.

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Speaker 1: I said, dude, you know, what do you think I've

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Speaker 1: been doing for the last forty years? In my practice,

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Speaker 1: there are very few girls that I work with, and

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Speaker 1: so for me, it was just a natural, a sad

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Speaker 1: but natural extension of of the of the professional life

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Speaker 1: life that I've lived. You know, the good news is good,

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Speaker 1: and I said good with quotes. The good news is

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of still ignorant thinking about the competence

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Speaker 1: of women, and so there are men that stupidly allow

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Speaker 1: themselves to be disadvantaged by believing that I'm disadvantaged. So

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Speaker 1: that works for me. At some point you just sort

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Speaker 1: of it's sad, But you get used to be the

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Speaker 1: only one, don't you. Yeah, I mean I think I

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Speaker 1: haven't been the only one very often in like a

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Speaker 1: work setting. I would think that I'm sure I could

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Speaker 1: also get used to it, um, but I would think

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Speaker 1: it would be hard to be the only woman on

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Speaker 1: a regular basis, um kind of swimming in a sea

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Speaker 1: of men for the reasons you said about people underestimating

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Speaker 1: your intellectual ability, but also just like that, you know,

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Speaker 1: could get a little like foreign or I wasn't gonna

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I lonely is quite the right word.

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Speaker 1: But they're just like I don't know, there are just

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Speaker 1: certain things you don't have in common with the people

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Speaker 1: around you in in that environment. That's been the case

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Speaker 1: since I left left the projects, right, I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: been my life and I do say sadly, I've gotten

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Speaker 1: used to it. I mean I've found myself hour into

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Speaker 1: a meeting and realize that I'm the only woman in

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Speaker 1: the meeting or the only person I'm calling in the meeting.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you just it just stops being something that

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Speaker 1: that I've become aware of. And I kind of think

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Speaker 1: it's good news because at least it means I'm so

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Speaker 1: consumed by what I'm doing that I'm not being distracted

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Speaker 1: by what other people think is the oddity of me totally.

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Speaker 1: And the fact that you brought up the project projects

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Speaker 1: makes me think about how you're dealing with this in

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Speaker 1: terms of class as well as race and gender right

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Speaker 1: like there, And if you let any of those things

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Speaker 1: stop you, you might be come overwhelmed, like you have

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Speaker 1: to figure out how to transcend all that you do

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Speaker 1: because and you do by understanding that it's not your problem.

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Speaker 1: I mean, someone said a couple of days ago, I

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Speaker 1: think I may have been watching TV that if you

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Speaker 1: I think but poorly of me because I'm black, that

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Speaker 1: is your problem. It only becomes my problem if you

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Speaker 1: have some ability to do something about it. One of

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Speaker 1: the first clients I had was a young African American

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Speaker 1: um who was charged with some crime. And I'm in

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Speaker 1: juvenile court and there was a judge who I had

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Speaker 1: been warned about that was incredibly sexist, incredibly racist, and

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Speaker 1: just a nasty old son of a bee who was

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Speaker 1: behaving exonsistent with everything I've been told about him, and

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Speaker 1: was treating me horribly. And I was paralyzed by knowing

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Speaker 1: that not merely that I was being treated badly, but

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Speaker 1: that this guy was doing that to me because I

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Speaker 1: was I was black, and because I was a woman. UM.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't perform because I was so stunned by

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Speaker 1: what was happening to me in a public courtroom. UM.

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Speaker 1: And I kind of came to when I saw the

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Speaker 1: marshall taking my client back into the into the lock up,

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Speaker 1: and I realized I hadn't performed, And I decided that

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Speaker 1: I hadn't performed because of this judge. And I had allowed,

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Speaker 1: but this judge felt about me to impact my ability

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Speaker 1: to to represent this young kid, and I vowed I

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Speaker 1: would never let that happen again. You made a point

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Speaker 1: earlier about you perhaps want the world to be too fair,

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Speaker 1: and how do you put it? How do you take

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Speaker 1: that and put it on the shelf so that you

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Speaker 1: can perform, I mean, and how do you not have

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Speaker 1: to do that? In ways that I think I have

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Speaker 1: to do that in order to get from step A

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Speaker 1: to B. My answer to that is that I have

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Speaker 1: channeled my deep sense of wanting more fairness and justice

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Speaker 1: into the kinds of stories I write. So a lot

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Speaker 1: of it has just been this sense that, you know,

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Speaker 1: what I can do with all the luck, because I

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Speaker 1: really do think of most of his luck that I've

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Speaker 1: been given is like try to make try to wake

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Speaker 1: people up to the problems and injustices and lack of

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Speaker 1: fairness I see around me. And so I you know,

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Speaker 1: I think in the end that like so many difficult

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Speaker 1: um qualities, that an obsession with fairness can be a handicap,

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Speaker 1: but it can also be a real strength because it

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Speaker 1: can kind of propel you forward in our complicated times.

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Speaker 1: That makes that makes a lot of sense. I just

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Speaker 1: I suspect that's the reason I probably as much as

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Speaker 1: I love my current job, and frankly I love my

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Speaker 1: other jobs, the jobs. The job I loved the most

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Speaker 1: was as a public defender, because you know, I used

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Speaker 1: to say I was a civil rights lawyer when I

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Speaker 1: was a public defender, because I really believe that there's

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Speaker 1: nothing that promotes civil rights more than making sure that,

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Speaker 1: for example, people charge with crimes or don't don't find

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Speaker 1: themselves suffering because of their inability to pay. Compensation is

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Speaker 1: how the workplace is supposed to tell us our value,

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Speaker 1: but for women, that system is broken, so we have

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Speaker 1: to find other ways to measure our self worth. For

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Speaker 1: Michelle Roberts, that meant coming up with a number that

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Speaker 1: would make her feel good about her self. For many women,

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Speaker 1: it means seeking out work that will fulfill us since

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Speaker 1: our paychecks might not. Like Sally Crotcheck said in an

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Speaker 1: earlier episode, women report that the number one reason they

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Speaker 1: accept a job is meaning and purpose, and many of

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Speaker 1: the women in our series have talked about that. But

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Speaker 1: finding meaning in your work is a privilege, and for

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Speaker 1: many working women, we need to get paid too. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening to our conversation series. If you like our

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Speaker 1: show or have anything to add to the conversation, head

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Speaker 1: on over Table Podcasts or wherever you listen to rate,

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Speaker 1: review and subscribe. This show was edited by Franchick the Leavie,

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Speaker 1: produced by Toper Foreheads, and hosted by me Rebecca Greenfield.

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Speaker 1: Janet Paskin moderated today's conversation. We also had production help

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Speaker 1: from Jillian Goodman and Liz Smith. Francesco Levie is Bloomberg's

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Speaker 1: head of Poppa