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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. When it comes to

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Speaker 1: death investigation, there's things along the journey of an investigator

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Speaker 1: that you encounter as just a person that is put

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Speaker 1: into this crazy world where you're you're bearing witness to

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Speaker 1: the end of life, and those elements that you observe

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Speaker 1: in there, you know, go back to a statement I'm

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Speaker 1: fond of making, and that is observing the abnormal and

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Speaker 1: the context of the normal. And this applies, I think

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Speaker 1: also to items that we use daily for whatever reason.

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Speaker 1: You know. It can be everything from no paper that

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Speaker 1: maybe you're familiar with that you see that you have

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Speaker 1: possession of in your own home, that people have you

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Speaker 1: to scratch out a note, or it could be a

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Speaker 1: vehicle that you encounter that maybe you have a friend

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Speaker 1: that has one just like it, but yet it's involved

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Speaker 1: in a death. Today we're going to talk about something

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Speaker 1: that's rather innocuous. It's a little plastic strip that we're

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Speaker 1: all familiar with now, and I guess a few years

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Speaker 1: ago we weren't necessarily so aware of them. But I've

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Speaker 1: got a bunch of them around the house. I use

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Speaker 1: them for all manner of things. It's zip ties, little

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Speaker 1: bits of plastic with teeth that you can use to

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Speaker 1: bind and hold things in place. It plays a crucial

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Speaker 1: role in an ongoing death investigation in Sandford, Florida. I'm

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags, Dave. I've got

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Speaker 1: zip tiz ling all around the house. Some people call

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Speaker 1: them a cable ties. And my wife loves to travel,

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Speaker 1: so anytime or loading up the car, I always, you know,

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Speaker 1: feel the need to obsess over making sure that things

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Speaker 1: are secure and that they're in place. And I've been

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Speaker 1: known to use a zip tie to hold certain things

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Speaker 1: down on the luggage track on top of my truck,

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Speaker 1: say truck and I got an old SUV and you know,

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Speaker 1: just hold it in place. I'm terrified. I'm terrified of

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Speaker 1: things flying off, going down the middle of the road, say.

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Speaker 1: And most of the time, I view a zip tie

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Speaker 1: as something that is essentially it has this level of

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Speaker 1: security to it that not many other things have out there.

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Speaker 1: That is immediate. It's not like tying a rope or

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Speaker 1: something like that. Once you zip this baby, it's there

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Speaker 1: in place. It's easy to use.

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Speaker 2: They're cheap, and it's like in your toolbox you have

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Speaker 2: duct tape, and zip ties. Those are the two guaranteed

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Speaker 2: things you're gonna have in there. If you need to

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Speaker 2: just be handy.

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Speaker 1: You seem like a handy kind of guy. I am not,

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Speaker 1: and so zip ties for me are like lowest common denominator.

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Speaker 1: Even though I have a boat, I'm not good at

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Speaker 1: not so that's kind of scary. But with zip ties,

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Speaker 1: I know that if I put it in place, pretty

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Speaker 1: much unless something really catastrophic happens, that thing's gonna stay

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Speaker 1: in place.

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Speaker 2: And that's why I use them too, same reason. Whether

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Speaker 2: I'm dealing with electronic wires or big stuff out by

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Speaker 2: the pool, doesn't matter. There's a zip tie for everyone.

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Speaker 2: And today we're actually going to be able to delve

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Speaker 2: into this a little bit because here's the scenario we have.

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Speaker 2: We have a couple. Joel bowsa fifty ish his girlfriend

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Speaker 2: a Joycey Cartagena. They have been together since about twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 2: That's when the pictures and things and the stories start

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Speaker 2: showing up on Joycey's Facebook page. Anyway, So starting in

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Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, this couple dated and ended up moving in together.

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Speaker 2: They were living together and had been again for a

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Speaker 2: couple of years. Joycey was one of those people that

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Speaker 2: everybody says, beautiful inside out, smart, always consumed with the

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Speaker 2: needs of others. That's the one thing that kept being

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Speaker 2: repeated by people who were friends with and knew or

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Speaker 2: worked with Joycey Cartagena was how she always looked at

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Speaker 2: other people first. Meanwhile, her boyfriend, Joel Boutza, actually pretty

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Speaker 2: much the opposite of that. He didn't really have much

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Speaker 2: of a career. He was a handyman, worked as an

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Speaker 2: inconsistent working handyman. They'd been living together. Joel was pretty

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Speaker 2: much dependent financially on Joycey to provide the day in

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Speaker 2: and out. And by the way, joyce Cartagana spent years

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Speaker 2: working for their school board and the worked as the

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Speaker 2: secretary of one of the schools there in Central Florida,

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Speaker 2: and had for a number of years before she began

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Speaker 2: working for Jet Blue, working in customer service. With jet Blue,

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Speaker 2: she could actually log on to her computer and everything

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Speaker 2: right from the house in a virtual setting, and that

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Speaker 2: worked out really well for her. And again, she was

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Speaker 2: so well thought of and so consistent in her performance

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Speaker 2: show that when she didn't log in for her day,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't something they just blew off at work. When

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Speaker 2: Joyce Krktahana didn't log in to do her job, people

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Speaker 2: immediately knew there was a problem and they did not

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Speaker 2: wait very long. Matter of fact, after trying all the

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Speaker 2: normal ways of getting up with her and getting no reply,

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Speaker 2: they actually they being her co workers, they call the

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Speaker 2: police and said, hey, we had a coworkerho didn't show up.

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Speaker 2: She always does, would you do a well being checked

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Speaker 2: on her.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that we do as death investigators

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Speaker 1: is that you have to go back and check your timeline.

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Speaker 1: And I'm always kind of preaching about postmortum interval where

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Speaker 1: we measure changes after death. But more importantly, you can

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Speaker 1: have that data. However, if you don't have an additional

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Speaker 1: data set which goes to where they were expected to be,

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Speaker 1: you don't have anything really a baseline to compare it

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Speaker 1: to when they were last seen and when they are

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Speaker 1: expected to be at a location. And it's important to

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Speaker 1: try to understand context was when were they supposed to

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Speaker 1: show up at a prescribed time or go online at

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Speaker 1: a prescribed time? And the world that we live in now,

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Speaker 1: particularly in this era of COVID and lockdowns and post

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Speaker 1: COVID and kind of the world that we in dwell.

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Speaker 1: Now people have gotten used to this remote working environment.

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Speaker 1: People know when you go live on air, I say

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Speaker 1: on air, I'm using in our context, but when you

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Speaker 1: go live on a system that you're supposed to be

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Speaker 1: working on, and certainly with a system like Jed.

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Speaker 2: Blue, right, well they're going to log in and see

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Speaker 2: who's working. And that's why I bothered him. So it

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Speaker 2: was here's a little confusion for me, Joe, And it's

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Speaker 2: not that big of a deal, but again going back

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Speaker 2: to the timeline, it does mess with me a little bit.

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Speaker 2: So we know that her co workers actually called to

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Speaker 2: have a well being checked done, and we know that

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Speaker 2: her boyfriend, Joel Boutza arrived at the home at about

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Speaker 2: two ten, and that's when all of this begins for us.

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Speaker 2: The clock started ticking about two ten in the afternoon.

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Speaker 2: Police arrived and they are told by Joel Bouza that

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Speaker 2: when he got home that afternoon from his handyman job,

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Speaker 2: he found Joycey Cartahena laying on the floor, face down,

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Speaker 2: a zip tie around her neck and he immediately Joel

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Speaker 2: Boutze starts telling police, oh, it was a suicide. She

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Speaker 2: took her own life from the very beginning, from the

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Speaker 2: very first minutes, he is telling them it's a suicide. Joe,

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Speaker 2: as a death investigator, when you come to this meeting

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Speaker 2: of the minds, I know that the police are first

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Speaker 2: on hand. Well, when you find a body that is

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Speaker 2: obviously dead and you know it's that the person is

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Speaker 2: no longer here, what does the first call police make.

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Speaker 1: Well, certainly when they find somebody in these conditions like this,

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Speaker 1: because this would be quite striking when they roll up

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Speaker 1: on the scene and they see this woman in this state.

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Speaker 1: Every death that is that doesn't have some kind of

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Speaker 1: pre existing natural ideology, you're going to roll a detective

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Speaker 1: out there more than likely. And I have to remind

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Speaker 1: people this case is taking place in Sanford, Florida. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you recall this, but David, this

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Speaker 1: is you know, associated with that town, is actually associated

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Speaker 1: with one of the most infamous cases, probably in the

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Speaker 1: last twenty years, and that's the Trayvon Martin case. It's

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Speaker 1: one of those places where we know that they have

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Speaker 1: a detective bureau, and so the detectives are going to

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Speaker 1: roll out there. It's not just going to be the

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Speaker 1: bee cop that's there. They'll probably call for crime scene

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Speaker 1: text as well to take photographs, because that's going to

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Speaker 1: be essential. You want to freeze this moment in time,

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Speaker 1: because this is an atypical case. Certainly, if you've got

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Speaker 1: someone who has allegedly taken their own life, and you've

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Speaker 1: got somebody an intimate there someone this bowsa fellow who

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Speaker 1: is stating he's lived with her now for a number

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Speaker 1: of years, so they have a very intimate relationship. He

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Speaker 1: exists in this domestic environment with her. He would have

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Speaker 1: an awareness, Whitney Dave if she's got some kind of

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Speaker 1: suicidal adiation or anything like that. But it's super bizarre.

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Speaker 2: But everybody that knew her, everybody that worked with her,

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Speaker 2: the suicide last thing on their mind, and a couple

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Speaker 2: other things come into play, and it's amazing to me

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Speaker 2: how police work through things. I know that there's no

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Speaker 2: statute of limitations on murder, and so when you have

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Speaker 2: a person who is dead under I guess the suspicious

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Speaker 2: circumstances would be the proper term. Because she's found alone

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Speaker 2: in her house, face down on the floor. Is zip time.

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Speaker 2: They've got the boyfriend saying she committed suicide, and they're

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Speaker 2: going to make a few calls, say well, does anybody

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Speaker 2: else close to her think suicide is a real thing?

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Speaker 2: Because in reality, they got to figure out more of

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Speaker 2: what's going on here. And what they first see on

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Speaker 2: her body besides the zip tie around her neck, well

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Speaker 2: they see like carpet burns and drag marks. They can

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Speaker 2: tell that he was involved in some kind of a

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Speaker 2: scuffle before this happened. And so I'm thinking in my head,

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Speaker 2: Joe immediately jumping to conclusions because I'm an idiot. She

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Speaker 2: got into a fight and he killed her, and now

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Speaker 2: he's covering it and make it look like a suicide.

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Speaker 2: But the other side of me said, okay, wait a minute,

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Speaker 2: what if they did have an argument, what if they

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Speaker 2: did get a little rough and tumble. But old handyman

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Speaker 2: Joel Boutza, he says, I'm out, I'm going to go

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Speaker 2: to work. I got a handyman job to do. You

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Speaker 2: do whatever. And she sits there and she is a

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Speaker 2: little bit bruised, a little bit, some scrapes and decides

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Speaker 2: I just can't take it anymore. I'm going to have

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Speaker 2: to check out. That's a realistic possibility, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I've had cases like that where people have

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Speaker 1: taken their own life in the wake of a domestic

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Speaker 1: dispute and it's almost like I'm going to show you

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Speaker 1: kind of event, and of course it ends up like

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Speaker 1: all suicides, very tragically in this case.

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Speaker 2: I'm just curious, when you have this scenario and you're

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Speaker 2: the forensic person coming to the scene, are you going

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Speaker 2: to listen to what the boyfriend says? Are you just

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Speaker 2: going to kind of block it out and just go,

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Speaker 2: here's the body. I've got to figure out everything went

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Speaker 2: on without having all this other distraction.

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Speaker 1: In my ear, it's important as the forensics person at

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Speaker 1: the scene that you look at the environment and let

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Speaker 1: the environment, as new age as it sounds, speak to

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Speaker 1: you without any static Doctor Tom Degucci, who is the

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Speaker 1: chief hemme in La many many years ago, stated early

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Speaker 1: on in his career that he learned to look at

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Speaker 1: the ceiling when he walked into a crime scene because

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Speaker 1: he didn't want to be distracted at other things. And

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Speaker 1: he would work his way down from the ceiling until

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Speaker 1: he got to the body, and he wouldn't talk to

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Speaker 1: anybody else. He wouldn't talk to cops, he wouldn't talk

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Speaker 1: to other Principles that were involved in it until after

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Speaker 1: he had done his initial assessment. And in a case

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Speaker 1: like JOYSS, it's important to understand that the body is

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Speaker 1: probably going to tell you more than any witness at

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Speaker 1: the scene. I've seen people choke to death either manually,

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Speaker 1: that is, with bare hands. I've seen people that have

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Speaker 1: been choked with items which involves most of the time

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Speaker 1: a ligature, which is a fine rope or something like

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Speaker 1: this that can incclude the airway or certainly block blood

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Speaker 1: flow to the brain. I don't know that I have

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Speaker 1: ever encountered a case involving a zip tie, and that's

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Speaker 1: what really stuck out to me in this particular case,

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Speaker 1: because you have an individual that is stating that this

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Speaker 1: is a self inflicted event, and it would take a

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Speaker 1: tremendous day amount of willpower in order to licked this

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Speaker 1: upon yourself, in order to take your own life. They

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Speaker 1: are certainly far more simpler and less uncomfortable ways to

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Speaker 1: do this.

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Speaker 2: I would think a zip tie in and of itself

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Speaker 2: would be a fairly painful way to go because of

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Speaker 2: the sharp you know, most zip ties, they're kind of sharp,

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Speaker 2: you know, the plastic on the ends, and that beyond

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Speaker 2: the fact that you're choking the life out of yourself.

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Speaker 2: If that's what's happening, you've got a lot of pain

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Speaker 2: going on from that side that you wouldn't have if,

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Speaker 2: say you used a belt or something along those lines.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it is difficult because the way the zip

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Speaker 1: tie is actually designed is that it has little teeth.

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Speaker 1: Imagine like almost as if this is an old fashioned jack,

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Speaker 1: which I don't know if people nowadays can identify with

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Speaker 1: that would go up. It's kind of graduated like this,

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Speaker 1: and the higher you go, the more tension you get,

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Speaker 1: and it increases elevation with a car in that sense,

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Speaker 1: but with this you're actually constricting. It's working the opposite,

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Speaker 1: but it's got teeth that you can't back up. The

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Speaker 1: only way to remove a zip tie, if you've never

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Speaker 1: used one, and I think everyone I've ever encountered is

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Speaker 1: made out of some kind of plastic, is to actually

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Speaker 1: take a sharp instrument and cut it away. Now, there

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Speaker 1: are a number of demonstrations and I kind of look

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Speaker 1: them up in advance out there of people that there's

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Speaker 1: one infamously out there with some former CIA agent that's

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Speaker 1: talking about how you break loose from zip ties if

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Speaker 1: your hands are bound with them, and police actually use

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Speaker 1: zip tie or they call them plastic cuffs to cuff

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Speaker 1: people on mass So if you have like a big

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Speaker 1: riot or something like that, you'll see these guys with

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Speaker 1: these things hooked to their belts and those are zip ties,

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Speaker 1: a form of zip ties that they're using to restrain

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Speaker 1: people instead of handcuffs. And you can't get those things

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Speaker 1: off unless you actually cut them, and so there's a

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Speaker 1: tremendous amount of tension, and right you are about the

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Speaker 1: pain that would be involved. One of the things that

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Speaker 1: we really look at when it comes to ligatures. And

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Speaker 1: just imagine this just for a second. The less surface

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Speaker 1: space that has on it, whether it's a rope or

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Speaker 1: a belt or in this case is zip time, the

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Speaker 1: more narrow it is, the deeper the furrow. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: the furrow is actually that crease that is created by

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Speaker 1: this particular item, and it goes deeper and deeper and

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Speaker 1: deeper into the tissue the tighter you make it. And

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Speaker 1: that applies to someone that might hang themselves or someone

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Speaker 1: that's killed with what we refer to as a groat,

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Speaker 1: which people may have seen in the movies, which is

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Speaker 1: this item that's essentially a literature that has two handles

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Speaker 1: on it traditionally, and you see people assassins that will

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Speaker 1: use them and they'll choke people out with these things

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Speaker 1: come up behind them in a stealthy like manner and

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Speaker 1: take the individual's life. So you have those that are

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Speaker 1: out there. But the more narrow these things are, the

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Speaker 1: deeper the furrow. And so we begin to kind of

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Speaker 1: appreciate this at autopsy when we're examining these these bodies

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Speaker 1: that have literatures, and most of the time when we

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Speaker 1: have one that is in fact deceased at the scene,

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Speaker 1: we don't rush to cut a ligature off at the scene.

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Speaker 1: We don't if we have confirmed that the individual is

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Speaker 1: deceased there, We're gonna leave it in place, because that

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Speaker 1: tells us a lot at the morgue about the dynamic

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Speaker 1: of the event, the placement of the item. Has it

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Speaker 1: been moved or removed and then placed over an area,

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Speaker 1: And we can actually appreciate that as a result of

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Speaker 1: some of the trauma that's left behind by these things.

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Speaker 2: Dave, and you're also I was wondering at that earlier,

293
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Speaker 2: and I was hoping you were going to cover it,

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Speaker 2: because my first thought if it was me and I

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Speaker 2: found my loved one on the floor. My first thought

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Speaker 2: would be to cut it off, would be to cut

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Speaker 2: the zip tie off the neck, just because if there's

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Speaker 2: any chance that I can save this individual, I'm not

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Speaker 2: gonna be able to do it with that zip tie

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Speaker 2: around her neck.

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Speaker 1: No, listen, that's an excellent point, I gotta say, man,

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Speaker 1: that just goes to basic human compassion, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, You've got a loved one who if she did

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Speaker 2: it to herself, then you don't want this to happen.

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Speaker 2: So you're going to do everything in your power to

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Speaker 2: say for life. First thing, zip tie is coming off.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't care if I've got to go to

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Speaker 1: the kitchen and get a butter knife. If I don't

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Speaker 1: have a knife on my person, the thing's coming off,

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Speaker 1: or I'm trying to rip it off with my bare hands,

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Speaker 1: anything that I can to bring this person back to life,

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Speaker 1: to reanimate them, if you will. And I think that

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Speaker 1: that speaks volumes about this particular case. If you've got

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Speaker 1: a circumstance where this is left in place by the

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Speaker 1: person who found her, that there's no effort, there's as

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Speaker 1: they say, no heroic measures were taken in order to

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Speaker 1: bring them back around. I mean, what do you do?

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Speaker 1: You stand over the body and just kind of shrug

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Speaker 1: your shoulders and say, oh, oh, well, well, I think

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Speaker 1: I've got a suicide. I think that she took her

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Speaker 1: own life. That does I mean, that goes to the

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Speaker 1: heart of this.

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Speaker 2: I think one thing that strikes me here is that

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Speaker 2: while the forensic people take over you, it's your job

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Speaker 2: to figure out what happened and is it murder or suicide.

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Speaker 2: You've got to help figure that out forensically. But the

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Speaker 2: police are also doing their work, and I'm wondering how

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Speaker 2: much their efforts in trying to find out what led

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Speaker 2: up to it. And you talk about timeline, but when

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Speaker 2: the police are trying to figure out what was going

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Speaker 2: on in this couple's life prior to her body being found,

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Speaker 2: and if it has any impact whatsoever forensically, after you've

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Speaker 2: already done your examination, if there's any questions, does the

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Speaker 2: police investigation help you to determine what might have happened

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Speaker 2: with the body.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, yeah, it's key because let me throw

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Speaker 1: this out to you, Dave. You've got a person that

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Speaker 1: is putting forth an idea, the finder, and you have

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Speaker 1: a finder who is an intimate and as I stated earlier,

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Speaker 1: they're going to have the most knowledge of what's going

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Speaker 1: on in this person's life at that particular time. If

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Speaker 1: they're putting out the idea that this is in fact

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Speaker 1: a suicide, going to have to prove that from an

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Speaker 1: investigative standpoint. That's the problem. We need to be able

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Speaker 1: to prove this. And if you look at it from

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Speaker 1: a scientific perspective, So what do we have as part

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Speaker 1: of this equation that's going to lead us down this

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Speaker 1: path logically where we arrive at a potential manner of suicide. Well,

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Speaker 1: some of the things that come about are prior suicide attempts.

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Speaker 1: Has this individual ever attempted suicide? Are they under the

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Speaker 1: care of someone for mental health issues, and that can

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Speaker 1: be anybody from a licensed professional counselor to a psychiatrist.

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Speaker 1: Are they taking medications that might help them reduce anxiety

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Speaker 1: or depression or alleviate depression in their life. So you're

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Speaker 1: going down this checklist, right and at the end of

356
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Speaker 1: this profile that you're building as an investigator relative to

357
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Speaker 1: the victim, when you add on what this individual the

358
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Speaker 1: finder is saying, you begin to think, well, is there

359
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,200
Speaker 1: enough evidence here that I can move forward and safely

360
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Speaker 1: say that this is in fact a suicide. Our one

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Speaker 1: supposition as death investigators, I can't say it enough, is

362
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Speaker 1: that all deaths, not some, but all deaths are homicides

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Speaker 1: until proven otherwise. So I have to exclude as a

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Speaker 1: death investigator all other possibilities, and if I have someone

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Speaker 1: that has, if I've worked suicides, and just so that

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Speaker 1: you understand and our listeners understand, death and medical legal

367
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Speaker 1: death investigators work far more suicides and you ever do homicides.

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Speaker 1: It's something that we're very good at. You just don't

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Speaker 1: ever hear about it because you have this ratio that's,

370
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Speaker 1: you know, sometimes two to one, three to one, depended

371
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Speaker 1: upon where you are geographically, you've got more people. You

372
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Speaker 1: just don't hear about it unless it's a celebrity, for instance,

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Speaker 1: that has taken their life. We're skilled at this, and

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Speaker 1: police are skilled at it too, because they're coming at

375
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Speaker 1: it from a different perspective, and certainly when they see

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Speaker 1: someone laying on the floor with a zip tie around

377
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Speaker 1: their neck, this is atypical. So you can imagine we're

378
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,879
Speaker 1: going to take a long, hard look at this to

379
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Speaker 1: try to understand and essentially check the boxes here to

380
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Speaker 1: see if it fits within this construct. And also just

381
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Speaker 1: so you know, not every case of suicide involves a

382
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Speaker 1: suicide note. They don't always involve a recording. So just

383
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Speaker 1: because there's not a note there necessarily doesn't mean that

384
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Speaker 1: it's not a suicide. Some people just make that decision

385
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Speaker 1: to go ahead and do it, and in a case

386
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Speaker 1: like this, you're left with more questions than your answers,

387
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Speaker 1: Brother Dave, I got to tell you, man, we have

388
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Speaker 1: to wait sometimes for the dead to speak to us,

389
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Speaker 1: and they do their best to reveal information in the morgue.

390
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Speaker 1: Most of the time. That's kind of where we that's

391
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 1: where we dance as medical legal death investigators. What can

392
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Speaker 1: the body tell us? And in this particular case, boy,

393
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Speaker 1: did this poor woman have a tale to tell?

394
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Speaker 2: Joe. Whenever there's a death and you have a significant

395
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 2: other involved, their investigation is immediately going to be multifaceted.

396
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 2: They're going to have to focus on the boyfriend's slash

397
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 2: husband as well as other possibilities. But they have to

398
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,159
Speaker 2: look at that and eliminate that individual. That's just a given.

399
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 2: In this particular case, though they found Joycey Cartagena based

400
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 2: down zip tie around her neck. Boyfriend is right there.

401
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 2: It's two ten in the afternoon. He's seeing suicide. That

402
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,679
Speaker 2: shows up in all the police paperwork, Chief of police

403
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 2: that he was leading us down this path. He was

404
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,679
Speaker 2: directing on the scene that it was a suicide. But

405
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 2: they had to look at everything. It took time. Now

406
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,239
Speaker 2: we're going to roll this out there and say he

407
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 2: has been charged. But it didn't happen right away. It

408
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,639
Speaker 2: actually took some time and Joe, they had to find

409
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 2: out that first of all, that while Josie Kartagena and

410
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 2: Joel Boutze had lived together for a number of years

411
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 2: and had been a couple since probably twenty sixteen, that

412
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 2: there were issues. Joycey had a lot of debt. That

413
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 2: is something kind of an underlying financial issue. She also

414
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 2: supported Joel Boutze financially. He didn't actually support himself. He

415
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 2: depended on her financially and she was in big time debt.

416
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Speaker 2: We also have from her son, who, by the way,

417
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 2: this young man is so broken hearted. Oh my goodness,

418
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 2: it just it hurts your heart to hear him talk

419
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 2: about his mother. But he is actually studying to become

420
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 2: a doctor and he was talking about how the day of,

421
00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 2: according to Joel Bouts of the boyfriend there of the death,

422
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,959
Speaker 2: they coupled Joyce Cartahana angel A Bounce, I had an

423
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 2: argument that morning about money, about finances, and he went

424
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 2: off to do his handyman job, and she didn't show up.

425
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 2: She did not log on. Nothing happened after he left.

426
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Speaker 2: In terms of her being alive. We don't know when

427
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 2: she died, but we know that as soon as he

428
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 2: went to work, she was not actually doing anything that

429
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 2: we can prove. We've got rug burns and other signs

430
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 2: of physical altercation on her body, and the police are

431
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 2: putting all this together along with the idea that he

432
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 2: is pushing as a suicide. So we know now he

433
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 2: has been charged with murder. But why, Joe, would it

434
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 2: take two months nearly to get that charge. Why did

435
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 2: it take so long?

436
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: They're testing every possible outcome here and trying to examine it,

437
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: and also they're waiting for information to come back from

438
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: the m's office, this assessment of the trauma that she

439
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 1: had sustained. Look, it's one thing if I'm glad you

440
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 1: brought up this idea of rug burns or carpet burns.

441
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 1: That's an abraided area on the skin, and if you've

442
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: never suffered one or had one, they are markedly painful.

443
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 1: So let me just break this down to you. If

444
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: an individual impacts on a carpeted surface and they get

445
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: this abraided area on their skin, it's not something that

446
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 1: they're going to do over and over and over again. Okay,

447
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 1: it's like sticking your hand in fire. Once you burn

448
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: your hand, you're not going to do it again. So

449
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: the question is why in the world would you have

450
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: multiple braided areas on your body. They are opining, at

451
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: least at this point, that these are related to a

452
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: carpeted surface.

453
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 2: Perhaps, so if there was only one marking like that,

454
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 2: it could be explained or maybe dismissed. But having more

455
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: than one, no.

456
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,479
Speaker 1: That's something that you sit back and you think, Okay,

457
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: I've got that bit to deal with. And then you've

458
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 1: got the atypical nature of this modality of death with

459
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 1: the zip tipe, which is super bizarre. But you know

460
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: something that you said just a moment ago that the

461
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,479
Speaker 1: police spokesman was saying, and I get the idea that

462
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: this individual has had a certain amount of training in

463
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 1: an area that we death investigators really have to be

464
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: careful in, and that is staged stage deaths. You made

465
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: the comment, and I love this that he said they

466
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: were being steered, and the steering is taking place initially

467
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: by this boyfriend, So he's steering and directing. You want

468
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 1: an explanation, and rightly so from the finder. You want

469
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: this individual to give you information relative to what they

470
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: know about the person. But when they continue constantly to

471
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: interject themselves into the conversation or into the investigator's kind

472
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,360
Speaker 1: of purpose here in order to assess what's going on,

473
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: you get kind of an odd feeling about them. Why

474
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: do you keep suggesting this? Why is it that it

475
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: couldn't be something other than this? And all of the

476
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: data points along the way. You're collecting these as you

477
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: go along, and you're doing this assessment of what this

478
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: person knows about this intimate that they're involved with. You

479
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,479
Speaker 1: look at the injuries that are there, the atypical nature

480
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 1: of this thing around her neck, this zip tie, which

481
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: you may have never seen before as a modality of suicide.

482
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: Let me tell you one of the phone calls that

483
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: they made after they left the scene. They called her doctor.

484
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: I can almost guarantee it. They would have called her

485
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 1: treating physician. They would have assessed that information at the scene.

486
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: You're saying that suicide. Okay, Now, if she doesn't have

487
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 1: a psychiatrist, we're going to call or a counselor we're

488
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: immediately going to call her treating physician. Are you currently

489
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: treating her for depression? Because an attending physician, even if

490
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 1: it's an internal medicine doc, can sit there and say well,

491
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: I'll give you this for depression, or i'll give you

492
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: this for anxiety, and again your check in a box.

493
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: If you call that person, they say, no, she's got

494
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 1: this kind of bright affect. She's never talked about. One

495
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 1: of the things they say is she doesn't have any

496
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: suicidal ideation with vocalization. None of that stuff is going on.

497
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 1: She doesn't have a history of suicide, and so that's

498
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: one of the things that you're kind of checking off,

499
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: and it doesn't It just doesn't add up, Dave.

500
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 2: When you get to the part of a ziptie being

501
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 2: around her neck, do you immediately go with, well, that's

502
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 2: obviously how she was choked, or is it possible maybe

503
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 2: that she was choked in a different way, hands around

504
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 2: the neck and the zip tie was then put on

505
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: it because they said it's a large zipti that the

506
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 2: zip tie was then added on actor she had already passed,

507
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,959
Speaker 2: and that was to cover up fingerprint marks.

508
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the dynamics of a ligature strangulation as

509
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: opposed to say, a manual strangulation. When I say manual,

510
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: what I mean is like manual labor. That means to

511
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: work with your hands. You're going to place your hands

512
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: if you were the perpetrator, around the neck of one

513
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: or get them in a choke hold where they're in

514
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: the crook of your arm and you're going to choke

515
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: down on them. You're going to apply pressure, external pressure

516
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: that is going to impact the internal structures of the neck.

517
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: Now that can be the trichia, you know, the airway,

518
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: or it can be the vessels that are supplying the

519
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: brain with oxygenated blood. So that's going to leave a

520
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: significant marker for you at autopsy. So when the autopsy

521
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: is conducted, first off, you're going to photograph this area

522
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: very very carefully, and if the zip tie is still

523
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: in place, which it sounds like it probably was, you'll

524
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: take images of the zip tie. What we refer to

525
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: as insight to which means in place, then away from

526
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: probably one hundred and eighty degrees around the circumference of

527
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: the tie itself, the mid range, away from where the

528
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: thing is actually tied off, where it kind of pull

529
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: it tight. You're going to clip it right there, you'll

530
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: set it aside, you'll take a photograph of the actual

531
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: ligature or the zip tie itself, and you'll take a

532
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: photograph of this furrow that's left behind. Now one of

533
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: the things that you see, and this is kind of

534
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: interesting that you'll see with ligature as many times you

535
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: see it in hanging these sorts of things. You'll see

536
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 1: these things refer to as Tardou spots, which are they're

537
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: like petiki and they're all over. They'll just kind of

538
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: blast all around that area, particularly if you've got this

539
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: kind of focal area that has been tied down very

540
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: very tightly, like you see with the news, so it

541
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,719
Speaker 1: looks like PETIKII. But there'll be like a little storm

542
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: of them, and you'll get them kind of all over

543
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: the surface of the skin. You can appreciate and you

544
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: would take note of that they don't appear every single time,

545
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: but it's something you would look for externally before you

546
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: open the body. If you've got a ligature that is

547
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: this tight, and buddy, it would be tight man, and

548
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: you don't have any signs of hemorrhage in that area

549
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: that that ligature or zip tie in this case was

550
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: in place. Over you got a problem and it's going

551
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: to be revealed once you do what's called the neck reflection.

552
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: So we go into these cases where we actually reflect

553
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: back the tissue of the neck, the external tissue, so

554
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: the skin. You get down into the layer of the

555
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: muscle around the neck and you begin to examine those areas.

556
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: You look for something that they're the structures within the

557
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: neck called the strap muscles, and there are these muscles

558
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: that kind of intertwine with one another that on our

559
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: own either side of the trachea that kind of cross

560
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: over the trachea in this area, and this is the

561
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: way there were engineered. And you look for soft tissue

562
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: hemorrhage in the muscles, in the overlying tissue, the SubQ fat,

563
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: all those areas you look for hemorrhage in there. If

564
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: you have got a ligature that's as tight, you're going

565
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: to have a very focalized area you can even appreciate

566
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: it internally, you'll see like this line that goes across

567
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: if you're absent that. But yet you have this kind

568
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: of broad, expansive hand hemorrhage that is not quite as deep,

569
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: but it is there that there is a high probability

570
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: that if you have associated hemorrhage that may perhaps be

571
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: brought about as someone having the life choked out of them.

572
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: You look at the ligature that you have and you

573
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: don't see any kind of associated demarcation with the ligature itself.

574
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: You know that this is something other than as advertised,

575
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: that perhaps they were choked out or manually strangled, and

576
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,239
Speaker 1: then the zip tide was put on as just an

577
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: afterthought to kind of put this forward. She took her

578
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: own life, She had access to a zip tide and

579
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: she put her around her neck and she tightened the

580
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: thing down. Can you imagine? And so science is going

581
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: to trump every single time, it's going to trump whatever

582
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: you might be speaking. You're trying to speak this into existence, right.

583
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 2: You got this guy from the very beginning, He's already

584
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: in there saying this is what it is. Again, I

585
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: am still stuck with Joe, this person that you have

586
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 2: had an intimate relationship with for years, is dead on

587
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 2: your floor and you didn't try to do anything to

588
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 2: help except tell the police I have a suicide. It

589
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 2: just boggles the mind. But I'm wondering, Joe. You know,

590
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 2: when you put a zip tie and you pull it,

591
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 2: certain areas of the zip tie would have pressure on

592
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 2: them first. You know, as you're pulling back on it,

593
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 2: would you be able to trace that in post perhaps?

594
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: I think that probably the most pressure is going to

595
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: be exerted, probably away from where it's actuated from where

596
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: you slip the tip of this thing in and then

597
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: pull it tight. So you're going to have initial pressure

598
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: that's applied again one hundred and eighty degrees away from

599
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: wherever that connective point is, and then latterly which would

600
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: be at the ninety degree marks on either side as

601
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: you're tightening it down. And then finally you'll have that

602
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: one place where you make that one final pull as

603
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: you tighten it down right there, and sometimes the skin

604
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: can get wrapped up in there, it'll pinch. We've seen

605
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: this happen with people that have had their hands zip tied.

606
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: You'll get these little pinched areas that'll have focal areas

607
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: of hemorrhis that are associated with that, and so there

608
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: are a number of things that you're going to look

609
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: for on their person and here's something else. And this

610
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,720
Speaker 1: particularly happens with female victims, even if they're fully clothed.

611
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: In a case like this that has this kind of violence. Nowadays,

612
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 1: what will happen in the morgue even if she's fully clothed, Dave,

613
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: They're going to do a rape kit. There's a high

614
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: probability because you know, lots of times people can be

615
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: raped and they'll be redressed. For instance, I'm not saying

616
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: that that happened in this case, but I'm saying that,

617
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: just to be safe, this would have happened, they would

618
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 1: have also have done and this is kind of fascinating,

619
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: they would have also done examinations of her hands. You know,

620
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: we talked about the ubraided areas that she would have

621
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: relative to these friction abrasions that come about as a

622
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: result of contacting carpet, but we would look at the

623
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: nails and do the nail trimmings and the nail scrapings.

624
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: Nail scrapings and trimmings is the way it actually happens

625
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,720
Speaker 1: to see if there is anything caught beneath those nails.

626
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: It seemed as though, I don't know what you think

627
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: about this day, but it seems as though the narrative

628
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: that we're being given, she fought back or resisted in

629
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: some way. And many times if an individual can, they're

630
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 1: going to try to, particularly if someone is putting pressure

631
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: on their neck and the individual is using their hands.

632
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 1: You would look at a suspect, if you can get

633
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: them early enough, you would look at the wrists right

634
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: to see if there's nail marks, and they're going to

635
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: look like little half moons where the nails kind of

636
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: penetrate into the skin of the perpetrator and also scratch

637
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: marks on the face because you're trying to do the

638
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: victim is trying to do anything that can to get away.

639
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 2: And in this particular case, we haven't heard no, you

640
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 2: know what, Joe, we have. They did say that they

641
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 2: could tell a struggle had taken place. You've got the

642
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 2: other marks with the rugburns and things like that. They

643
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 2: alluded to other things that they witnessed on at the

644
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,919
Speaker 2: crime scene. You mentioned a rape kit, even though she's

645
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 2: fully clothed, and that's the other part of this to

646
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,959
Speaker 2: believe his story is to just be wacko and looking

647
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 2: at it from every other way possible. Joe, if not him,

648
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,959
Speaker 2: somebody just came in there after he left for work

649
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: and killed her for no reason and went on about

650
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 2: their mary away without taking anything.

651
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right. And the police or the DA at

652
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 1: least have enough that they felt secure enough in charging Boosa.

653
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: They did, in fact charge him with homicide.

654
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 2: First degree premeditated murder.

655
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they premeditated, which is a boy. That's a

656
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 1: certain element there, particularly in Florida. You have this knowledge

657
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: in advance that you're planning to do this, and so

658
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 1: premeditation is certainly something that's very chilling. This is not

659
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 1: a reactive event in the opinion of the police. He

660
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 1: has been charged, he hasn't been convicted, He hasn't even

661
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 1: been tried. But from what I understand, the judge didn't

662
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: feel secure enough apparently, or the magistrate didn't feel secure

663
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: enough to offer bond for him. He's being held without bond, Dave.

664
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: So that gives you an idea to where prosecutor's mind

665
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: is and certainly the police's minds are. I think that

666
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: it's very important though, that we understand that even though

667
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,240
Speaker 1: he's saying that this is a suicide and the police

668
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: believe that it is a homicide, it's important to know, Dave,

669
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: that we have people out all across this country and

670
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: within the sound of our voices that are struggling with

671
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,439
Speaker 1: things right now. And if you are someone you love

672
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 1: and you care about is struggling with thoughts of self harm, police,

673
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: know that there is help. You can simply dial nine

674
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: eight eight for suicide and Crisis Lifeline. I'm Joseph Scott

675
00:37:43,000 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Bodybacks