1 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: In June of eighteen ninety three, Lizzie Borden's jury was 2 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: weighing the evidence against her. The twelve male jurors watched 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: her for two weeks as both sides presented their arguments. 4 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: It was so hard for most men to believe that 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: a woman from a respected family would murder her parents 6 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: with an axe. Author Kara Robinson explains why. 7 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 2: She was someone who ticks all the boxes of upper 8 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 2: middle class womanhood. You know that she's unmarried, daughter, engaged 9 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 2: in good works, who lives at home, and so she thought, 10 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 2: you can't really expect her to account for her time 11 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 2: in the way that you would expect a man who's 12 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 2: out in the world working. 13 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: And that means that the jury might not have been 14 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: as concerned about where Lizzie was during the murders as 15 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: a jury would be today. 16 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 2: And we also know some things that the jury never heard, 17 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 2: you know, namely that Lizzie Borden was alleged to have 18 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 2: bought prussic acid or I'm sorry, Lizzie bordon was alleged 19 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 2: to have tried to by prussic acid before the murders. 20 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 2: And you know that shows a certain amount of intent, 21 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 2: and it would have really postured the very effective defense 22 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 2: strategy of trying to suggest that she's just this innocent 23 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 2: bystander who has just had the most fortunate of being 24 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 2: home at the wrong time. 25 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: Without the benefit of that potentially useful information, the jury 26 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: wasn't getting the whole story. It was a form of 27 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: gender and class bias, and that sort of bias is 28 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: something that pervaded the eighteen hundreds and the nineteen hundreds. 29 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: Crime historian Nel Darby says that misogyny over the centuries 30 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: has framed female killers in a certain way. 31 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 3: So if you want to commit a crime, if you 32 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 3: are so angry that you want to commit that crime 33 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 3: now and it's not so premeditated, you will go for 34 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 3: what you can find. I say something that kind of 35 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 3: makes us rethink female criminality because you're making assumptions about 36 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:07,639 Speaker 3: the tool that they're using. 37 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: Some murder weapons are more masculine than others. Give me 38 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: a break. 39 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of assumptions made that if 40 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 3: women commit murder, they're going to use poison, and even 41 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 3: you know, within fantaside cases, there's this kind of assumption 42 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 3: that if you poison your child, that makes you worse 43 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 3: than if you've drowned them or suffocated them, it's seen 44 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 3: as less feminine. Again, takes more planning, and so it's 45 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 3: interesting how we perceive these women according to what they've 46 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 3: used to commit their crime. 47 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: Nel says that visualizing the proper Lizzie Borden swinging an 48 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: axe at her parents was startling to men in the 49 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. I think it still is. 50 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 4: Women have always. 51 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 3: Been perceived that if they commit crime, they will commit 52 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 3: it through some sort of more ladylike way than men. 53 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 3: That scene is quite a musculine weapon and a musculine 54 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 3: way of killing somebody, and I think it does ignore 55 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 3: the fact that you use what is to hand. 56 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: I learned all about that bias when I interviewed people 57 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: for season four of tenfold More Wicked. It was a 58 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: story about Clara Phillips. In nineteen twenty two, the twenty 59 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: four year old showgirl beat a woman to death in 60 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: Los Angeles named Alberta Meadows. Clara suspected that the nineteen 61 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: year old was having an affair with Clara's husband, even 62 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: though there was no evidence the murder was clearly premeditated. 63 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: Clara took her friend Peggy Caffey to a store where 64 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: Clara bought a claw hammer. She hid it under her 65 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: coat as she drove Alberta and Peggy up a desolate road. 66 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: When Alberta got out of the car and denied the accusations, 67 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: Clara beat her to death. It was a brutal murder 68 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: committed by an attracted woman. She was convicted, but of 69 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: second degree murder. That means they didn't think it was premeditated. 70 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: The all male jury seemed enamored with her. Some jurors 71 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: admitted that her looks played a role, but it was 72 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: also just really hard to believe that a woman could 73 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: also be a butcher. And on June twentieth, eighteen ninety three, 74 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: the jury of men in New Bedford, Massachusetts had to 75 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: think beyond that bias to suspend disbelief and convince themselves 76 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: that Lizzie Borden did have the ability to pick up 77 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: a heavy axe and murder her father and her stepmother. 78 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: After just ninety minutes of deliberation, jurors knocked on the 79 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 1: judge's door and they presented their verdict to the courtroom. 80 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden was not guilty. 81 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 2: And they themselves then, you know, head out of the 82 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: courtroom and go to a bar where they have a 83 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 2: drink because they'd been suffering under enforced temperance during the trial, 84 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 2: and they have a picture taken of themselves and they'd present. 85 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 5: It to Lizzie Borton. 86 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 2: So I think that, you know, I think if you 87 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 2: put those things together, that you'd say that this isn't 88 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 2: really a case of reasonable doubt for them. This is 89 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 2: a case where they were absolutely certain that she was 90 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 2: not the murderer, or at least they were not prepared 91 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 2: to consider the possibility that she was the killer. 92 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: Lizzie was elated, of course, and will shorthand what happens 93 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: afterward with Lizzie and her sister Emma. 94 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:39,919 Speaker 2: They keep the old house, which they rent out because 95 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 2: you know, they are Andrew Borden's daughter, so they know 96 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 2: the importance of a good commercial earner. 97 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: But eventually they sold the house where their parents were murdered. 98 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: Bordon tour guide Ashley Bolero tells us more as we 99 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: stroll around the Bordon home. 100 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 6: So what I can show you in here is so basically, 101 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 6: the girls sold the house and they pack up all 102 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 6: the furniture, and the furniture that they originally had in 103 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 6: this home was ruined in a fire and it becomes 104 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 6: a residential It is reopened in nineteen ninety six with 105 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 6: the idea of making a bed and breakfast with the 106 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 6: Burdens in mind. So none of the furniture that you 107 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 6: see here is belong to the Bordens, but it is 108 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 6: time period accurate, so late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds. 109 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: Kara Robertson says that the Bardon's sisters moved into a 110 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: quiet life in a beautiful seven bedroom, three and a 111 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: half bathroom mansion in a nicer neighborhood overlooking Fall River. 112 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: The mansion even had a name, Maplecroft. Kara says that 113 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: their choice of locations was very telling. 114 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 2: That's one of the things that you know that I 115 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 2: think is very striking about the end of the story, 116 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 2: that you know, she could have chosen to live elsewhere with. 117 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 5: The amount of money she had. 118 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 2: I mean, she could have been, if not perhaps totally anonymous, 119 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 2: at least not a figure of such notoriety. But you know, 120 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 2: she chose to remain in Fall River, and that sort 121 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 2: of speaks speaks to, I think the provincialism that she 122 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: sort of couldn't imagine being anywhere else. But also that 123 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 2: you know that had, after all, been the height of 124 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: her ambition. 125 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden didn't want to leave Fall River, even if 126 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: most of the people there weren't interested in keeping company 127 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: with her. Kara says that in a sense, Lizzie got 128 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: the life that she wanted, financial freedom without the burden 129 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: of living with her overbearing parents. But it wasn't easy 130 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: for her. 131 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 2: She's frozen out of her church circle pretty quickly, that 132 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 2: the pews around her are empty, and it becomes clear 133 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,239 Speaker 2: that the people who back her during the trial aren't 134 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 2: going to necessarily want a socialife with her. 135 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: Lizzie and Emma lived in Maplecroft for more than a decade. 136 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 2: She continues to live with her sister until nineteen oh five, 137 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 2: so that's twelve years after the acquittal, but. 138 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: More than ten years after her trial. Lizzie and Emma 139 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: had a fight that ended their relationship. 140 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 2: The sisters have a dispute, and we don't know what 141 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 2: it's about. Their speculation that it could have been about 142 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 2: Lizzie Borden becoming a little bit too chumming with the 143 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: theatrical troupe, including a particular actress. 144 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 1: That's an interesting theory I have no idea, but Kara 145 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: also says that it could have been over a handsome 146 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: coachman that Lizzie favored. Then there's the rumor that Emma 147 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: got an outside opinion. 148 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 5: There are all sorts of speculation. 149 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 2: Just we do know that she consulted her spiritual adviser 150 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 2: about events transpiring at the house and that she wasn't 151 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 2: happy about it, and she moved out and then never 152 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 2: spoke to her sister again. 153 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: After moving out, Lizzie Borden lived alone for more than 154 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: twenty years. She died on June first, nineteen twenty seven, 155 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: and the answers of what happened to her father and 156 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: stepmother went with her to the grave. Kara says that 157 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: at the end, Lizzie Borden was isolated, whether she deserved 158 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: to be or not, and that's all part of the 159 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: mystique about this story. Who was she? 160 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 2: The people who roughly speaking, were her kind of people 161 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 2: back her against outsiders during the trial because it would 162 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 2: have reflected really badly on everyone, and then they freeze 163 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: her out and you know, basically ostracize her afterwards. 164 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 5: You know, it's a little bit simplistic, but that's sort 165 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 5: of what happens. 166 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 2: And there's also the problem that you know, we want 167 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 2: encounters in other famous ecoitos, which is that you know, 168 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 2: in the emotion of the moment, people maybe are relieved 169 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 2: that the person is not found guilty, but then again, 170 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 2: you know, when time passes, you think, well, if. 171 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 5: That person didn't do it, then who did? Uh? 172 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 2: And there's never anybody who's considered to be a real 173 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 2: suspect after Lizzie Borden. 174 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: That being said, Kara Robertson remains optimistic about finding out 175 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: more information, even if it is more than a century 176 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 1: after the murders. 177 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 2: The most interesting material about the case, it's come from 178 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 2: people's addicts, as they've gotten as you know, the Famili's 179 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 2: closed up summer houses and they've come out. The defense 180 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 2: lawyers journals were held in the lawyers at it for 181 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 2: years and years and years, and finally, you know, finally 182 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 2: they were. 183 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 5: Donated to the Historical Society. 184 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 2: So it's entirely possible that you know, at some point 185 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: we'll get more insight into the story and that you know, 186 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 2: Lisey Bordon can be a fuller person that as opposed 187 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 2: to someone on whom everyone projects their deepest fears or anxieties. 188 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: Of course, the Borden House is now a world famous museum. 189 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: And on this cold November night, Ashley, Carrie Nolty and 190 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: I are standing on Second Street outside the home taking 191 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: one last look. 192 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 7: So you're saying, there's a liar that killed four people here. 193 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 7: Then you've got Lizzie Borden, then you've got Eliza Bordon, 194 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 7: and then you've got the Satanic panic lady basically block. 195 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 5: Of each other. That's crazy. 196 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 2: It's you can see every single location, from every single 197 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 2: location on this street. That's where something happens. 198 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 5: Not the town. 199 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: I think it's this. 200 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 5: It's just this one street. 201 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: I ask Ashley where her tour head's next, and she 202 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: gestures up the street. Another Lizzie Bordon connection. 203 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 6: So we stop at Saint Mary's Cathedral Church, which is 204 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 6: the church that Bridget Sullivan attended while she lived here. 205 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: This church will be the starting point for our final story. 206 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: It is a beautiful Catholic church just up the road 207 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: at the intersection of Second Street and Spring. It's formerly 208 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: called the Cathedral of Saint Mary of the Assumption, and 209 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: I love it. We haven't mentioned Bridget Sullivan in this episode, 210 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: but remember that she was the Irish housekeeper for Lizzie 211 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: Borden's family at the time of the murders. Luckily for Bridget, 212 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: she had been spotted cleaning windows during the murders, so 213 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: she was ruled out as a suspect. But Bridget has 214 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: always been an enigma in this story, one of the 215 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: case's most mysterious characters. Almost as soon as her testimony 216 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 1: to authorities was complete, Bridget vanished from Fall River. She 217 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: eventually got married in Montana, and in the years that 218 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: followed there were rumblings about a deathbed confession to having 219 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: helped Lizzie by providing fuzzy testimony about the case. But 220 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: that's another topic for a show that's not tenfold more wicked. 221 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: When Sullivan disappeared from Fall River, she left Saint Mary's 222 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: Cathedral with one fewer pershioner, and Bridget's curious role in 223 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: the murders was left to the history books of the city. 224 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 1: Kara says that Bridget Sullivan was fortunate that she had 225 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: an alibi, because yet again, immigrants in Fall River were 226 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: not always given a fair shake in criminal cases. 227 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 2: And then there's the question of Bridget Sullivan, you know, 228 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 2: who could have been a serious trouble because although it 229 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 2: didn't seem like a murder that would have been committed 230 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 2: by a woman, you know, immigrant women didn't quite qualify 231 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 2: as you know, women as understood by that differentiation, you know, 232 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 2: so someone like Bridget Sullivan would have been expected to 233 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 2: chop wood and do other physical labor. 234 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: Bridget Sullivan's role in the Borden murders, if she did 235 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: have a role, was certainly ambiguous. But even though we'll 236 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: leave her behind from here, she does make an excellent 237 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:11,119 Speaker 1: transition to our final story, back to Saint Mary's Sullivan's 238 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: beloved church. It has stood here since eighteen fifty two, 239 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: and over the centuries it certainly hosted its share of 240 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: interesting parishioners. But for our purposes, we're jumping ahead almost 241 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: a century to nineteen seventy nine, when Saint Mary's became 242 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: an important location in yet another terrible story centered on 243 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: Fall River. I know, for a tenfold story, nineteen seventy 244 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: nine feels pretty recent, but this one seems worth it. 245 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: Ashley and Jeff Blanger say that this story features vulnerable victims, 246 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: a frightened city, and a snake of a man, all 247 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: set during the wave of frightening crimes. Dubbed the Satanic Panic. 248 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: This case centers on a killer named Carl Drew. 249 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 6: And we talk about this Satanic Panic and Carl Drew 250 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 6: who he was. 251 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 5: I can't put this in icily. He was a pimp. 252 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 4: Carl Drew was trying to gain power and influence and 253 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 4: so on. He was dealing drugs, he was doing all 254 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 4: kinds of things. 255 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: Carl Drew was twenty four years old in nineteen seventy 256 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: nine when the first murder took place, and he was 257 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: a cult leader. 258 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 6: And during the Satanic Panic, it was assumed that these cult. 259 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 8: Leaders were performing human ritualistic sacrifices. 260 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 4: So Carl Drew was recruiting sex workers, local sex workers 261 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 4: to bring them in and you know, little did they 262 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 4: know that they were going to be victimized like this. 263 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: During the eighties, there were thousands of unproven allegations of 264 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: Satanic ritual abuse and animal sacrifice across America, including sexual 265 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: assaults and murders. Parents and investigators became convinced that women 266 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: and children were being brutalized by devil worshipers using them 267 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: in their Satanic rituals, and in nineteen seventy nine, the 268 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: city of Fall River had become mired in its own 269 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: version of that satanic panic. In October of that year, 270 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: a seventeen year old named Doreen Anne Levek went missing 271 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: in fall River. Doreen was from nearby New Bedford and 272 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: she had been a sex worker. Witnesses had spotted her 273 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: drinking heavily the night of her disappearance, and Doreen's body 274 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: was discovered the next day under some bleachers at a 275 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: technical high school in fall River. She was identified after 276 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: police released a composite sketch the next month. In early November, 277 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: another young woman vanished. Nineteen year old single mother Barbara 278 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: Raposa had a history of drug abuse and sex work. 279 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: Barbara's father became alarmed when she didn't pick up her 280 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: son from a babysitter. Hunters found her body several months 281 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: later in a rural area nearby Fall River. We've talked 282 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: about this repeatedly on my shows, the vulnerability of different 283 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: segments of society. Sex workers can be easy targets, particularly 284 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: for serial killers like the Gilgo Beach suspect. Crime historian 285 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: Nel Darby shared more details with me. 286 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I suppose it's because of the unpredictability 287 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 3: of their lives, they aren't keeping regular hours, they are 288 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 3: going out at night. They might not tell people where 289 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 3: they're going or when they be back. They might not know, 290 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 3: so they are immediately vulnerable. 291 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: A lack of communication, even in the nineteen eighties made 292 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: it difficult to track them if they were in trouble. 293 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: And of course this kind of vulnerability goes back hundreds 294 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: of years. 295 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 3: If I look back at did Jack forrit the case, 296 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 3: you've got drink issues. You know, nowadays you'd also get 297 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 3: drug issues where they might be dependent on earning a 298 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 3: certain amount of money and take risks that they might 299 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 3: not otherwise have done. So it's all quite sad again 300 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 3: that these these women tend to be forgotten. They tend 301 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 3: to be you know, it tends to be assumed that 302 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 3: they haven't got any body who cares for them or 303 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 3: loves them or would miss them, and yet they do. 304 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 3: It's just that these individuals might not know what their relatives, 305 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 3: their friends are getting up to at night. You know, 306 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 3: they don't know where they are all the time. 307 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: By nineteen eighty, Carl Drew was on the radar of investigators. 308 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: Drew was known as a pimp, a brutal one who 309 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: was also a well known drug dealer. Police knew that 310 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: both victims were connected to him. 311 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 4: They were meeting in the woods and so on, had 312 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 4: a little shack out there. 313 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: And Jeff Bllanger says that these murders happened at a 314 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: time when the Fall River area was particularly vulnerable. 315 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 4: The thing about Satanism just like a curse. If you 316 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 4: believe in it, then it's real, and it's absolutely real 317 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 4: the people that lost their lives in a ritual, whether 318 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 4: there's such a creature as Satan or not, if you 319 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 4: die in a sacrifice, that's pretty real to you. 320 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 1: No one knows what really happened out there in the 321 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 1: woods with Carl Drew and his cult, but the police 322 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: knew that he was up to something, and they also 323 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: knew that a potential killer needed to be brought in 324 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: and questioned. 325 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 6: The Fall River Police wanted to question him about some 326 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 6: murders that had happened, and that some ties that he 327 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 6: had to these murders. 328 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: Fall River police needed informants to arrest Carl Drew, and 329 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: they began talking with a woman named Karen Marsden, who 330 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: was connected to Drew through sex work, but she had 331 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,479 Speaker 1: already heard about the bodies that were found, and Karen 332 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: was clearly frightened. Police tried to convince her that she 333 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: would be protected, that Carl Drew wouldn't be able to 334 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: hurt her if she cooperated with them. 335 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 8: And they spoke to Karen asking her to basically make 336 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 8: a statement. 337 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: Investigators suspected that Karen knew details about the cult, so 338 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: the month after Barbara's body was discovered, they contacted Karen. 339 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,439 Speaker 1: Karen would not tell investigators who killed Doreen. She just 340 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: didn't believe that they could keep her safe, sobbed in 341 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: the police car. They wanted to take her to the woods, 342 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: to the place where they believed the murder happened, but 343 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: Karen was petrified. She insisted that she needed religious guidance, 344 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: so the police agreed to drop her off at Saint 345 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: Mary's in February of nineteen eighty. 346 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 8: And she was like, well, if I'm going to talk 347 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 8: to anybody, I need to speak to a priest first. 348 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 8: So they brought her over to the church right over there, 349 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 8: Saint Mary's Cathedral Church, and that was the last time 350 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 8: she was seen alive. 351 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 1: During the Satanic Panic of the early nineteen eighties, Karen 352 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 1: Marsden became Full River's third victim, and crime historian Nel 353 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: Darby says she's sadly not very surprised. 354 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 3: So there's always been the thing, well, they might not 355 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 3: be missed as quickly because they might be living on 356 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 3: their own, not be living with family who look out 357 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 3: for them. 358 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: But Karen Marsden was missed, and when she didn't return 359 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: home that night, Marsden's grandmother panicked and reported her missing 360 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: the next day. 361 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 8: Her remains were found a couple of months later in 362 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 8: a nearby town called Westport. 363 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: It took extensive police searches and there were only partial 364 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: remains discovered, about one hundred and fifty miles from Fall River. 365 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: Here's what the Commonwealth of Massachusetts has happened, adding more 366 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: details to an already convoluted case. In December nineteen seventy nine, 367 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 1: Robin Murphy and Karen Marsden were in a relationship living 368 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: together in Fall River. Miss Marsden had previously lived with 369 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: and worked for Carl Drew, a Fall River pimp who 370 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: also led a satanic cult. Miss Murphy was an active 371 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: participant in a group of pimps, sex workers, and drug 372 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: abusers that included mister Drew. On the evening of February eighth, 373 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty, seventeen year old Robin Murphy and Ms Marsden 374 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: were in a car with mister Drew and two other people. 375 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: Once they were in the woods in Westport, they beat 376 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: Karen Marsden to death with rocks and slit her throat. 377 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: Robin Murphy also admitted to being present and playing a 378 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 1: role in the murder of Barbara Raposa in Fall River 379 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: on February seventh, nineteen seventy nine. Murphy was given immunity 380 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: in the Raposa murder trial because she testified at another 381 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: trial in which a different cult member was convicted of 382 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: first degree murder. At Drew's murder trial in March nineteen 383 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: eighty one, different people took the stand to testify against him. 384 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: They said that there were numerous rituals in those woods 385 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: between October of nineteen seventy nine and February of nineteen eighty. 386 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: This next part is from Michael Newton's book, An Encyclopedia 387 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: of Modern serial Killers. It reads declaring himself to be Satan. 388 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: Drew would reportedly chant and pray in a different language, 389 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: leading his flock through the grisly steps of human sacrifice 390 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: on at least two occasions. Carl Drew and Robin Murphy 391 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,439 Speaker 1: were given life sentences for murdering Karen Marsden. Drew was 392 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole 393 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: for the murder of Raposa. The family of the third victim, Doreen, 394 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: never received justice. Although Drew was sentenced to life without parole, 395 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: Murphy was released in two thousand and four. The next year, 396 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,719 Speaker 1: Carl Drew filed a motion for a new trial. He 397 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: claimed ineffective assistance of counsel. He also said that the 398 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: witnesses were lying. Here's what's interesting. Remember that Robin Murphy 399 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: had testified at Drew's original trial, and that's why she 400 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,919 Speaker 1: was convicted of second degree murder, not first degree murder. 401 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: She cut a deal with the prosecutor after she was parolled. 402 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: Murphy testified at Drew's evidentiary hearing that her testimony at 403 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: his original trial was quote fabricated and molded by former 404 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: prosecutors and investigators. After listening to Murphy's testimony as well 405 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: as other evidence, Supreme Court Judge John P. Connor Junior, 406 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: denied Drew's appeal and dismissed Murphy's news statements. He said 407 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: that she was the most unreliable of all the witnesses 408 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: at the hearing. Judge Connor said this about Robin Murphy. 409 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 1: She maintains that she has no recall of February eighth, 410 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty, that's when Karen Marsden was killed. He said 411 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: that she doesn't remember what she told the representatives of 412 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 1: the District Attorney's office on in April twenty ninth through 413 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 1: May one of nineteen eighty, and that she doesn't remember 414 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: testifying at the trial that the defendant killed Marston. Judge 415 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: Connor declared quote the testimony of Murphy's prostitutes and the 416 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: police officers who were involved in the Marsden investigation in 417 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one reveal Murphy to be a very intelligent, controlling, 418 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: and violent person whose primary interest was taking care of herself. 419 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: Twenty three years in prison have not changed that impression. 420 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 1: Carl Drew eventually died in prison. Robin Murphy was paroled 421 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: in two thousand and four, but then violated her terms 422 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 1: and returned to prison in twenty eleven. In twenty twenty two, 423 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: at the age of fifty nine, Murphy became eligible for 424 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,719 Speaker 1: parole once again, but the Parole Board denied her application. 425 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: This is what it said. The Board is of the 426 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: opinion that Robin Murphy has not demonstrated a level of 427 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 1: rehabilitative process that would make her release compatible with the 428 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: welfare of society. Murphy is eligible for parole once again 429 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four, though virtually no one sympathizes with 430 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: her or the other cult members even decades later. Although 431 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 1: some believe Carl Drew to be innocent, most see him 432 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: as another nefarious killer from Fall River's past. If you 433 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: believe some of the media over the past few decades, 434 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 1: Fall River, Massachusetts did seem to be cursed, particularly in 435 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. 436 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 4: You know, this is a time when the New Bedford 437 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 4: Highway murders, which is a really interesting story too. The 438 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 4: bodies are being dumped in and around, you know, the 439 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 4: streets of New Bedford and Fall River and so on. 440 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: Jeff is absolutely right about the times being strange, more 441 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: confounding murders, but these happened several years after Carl J. 442 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 1: Drew haunted the woods. The New Bedford Highway killer did 443 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: create another level of mystery and fear in this part 444 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: of New England. Here's a quick summary of this unsolved case. 445 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: In one year, nineteen eighty eight, eleven women went missing 446 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: from New Bedford, Massachusetts. It's a community about fifteen miles 447 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: to the southeast of Full River. By the following year, 448 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 1: the bodies of nine of the eleven victims were recovered 449 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: along the highways in the area, including around Full River. 450 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: Two women were never found but are presumed dead. Investigators 451 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 1: believed that this was certainly the work of a serial killer. 452 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: It's a famous case in New England, though truthfully I 453 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 1: had never heard of these murders. Investigators are still working 454 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: these cases more than three decades later, and with the 455 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: advancement of DNA testing as well as genetic genealogy, it's 456 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: certainly possible that the serial killer might still be identified. 457 00:27:59,760 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 5: Hope. 458 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: So, the New Bedford Highway murders were frightening and they 459 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: heightened the area sense of fear in the nineteen eighties. 460 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: After those murders, some people felt like the areas seemed 461 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 1: like the nexus for an evil entity meant to create 462 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: death and provoke fear for generations, particularly in people who 463 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: visited those two blocks in Full River. Jeff Balanger says 464 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 1: he's not so sure. 465 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 4: So again we try to make connections. We try to 466 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 4: find order amid this chaos of people being murdered and 467 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 4: found dead on the side of the road or in 468 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 4: the woods, and we try to understand what's behind the 469 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 4: monsters that are doing this. 470 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: I suppose that it's the idea that something supernatural must 471 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: be at work, that a normal person would never do 472 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: something so wicked. How else do we explain so many 473 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: horrific things happening in one area. New England has a 474 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: deep history. How could bad things not happen? You all know, 475 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: I do believe in ghosts, sort of. I wouldn't say 476 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: I'm sure, though. I am certain that my family's old 477 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: farmhouse has spirits roaming around. But my beliefs generally are 478 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: grounded in science and provable facts, not blind faith. But then, 479 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: just when I thought we'd be leaving all this talk 480 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,719 Speaker 1: of how New England is certainly haunted behind, Jeff Balanger 481 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: throws a wrench into all of it. 482 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,479 Speaker 4: Okay, so let's continue to zoom out. Have you heard 483 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 4: of the Bridgewater Triangle? 484 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: What I mean? 485 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 4: So, here's the thing, right, So the Bridgewater Triangle is 486 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 4: this area just a scoch North of Fall River of 487 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 4: just unusual paranormal and strange activity. It goes down to 488 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 4: Freetown's State Forest, which is where Carl Drew and the 489 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 4: Satanic Shack was, And so people have looked into this 490 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 4: area for years. There's been UFO sidings, ghost sightings, monster sightings, 491 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 4: cult activity, murder, and so on. 492 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: And so on. This is the last thing we need 493 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: this season and even bigger playing field. But Jeff insists 494 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: that it's important to consider if you are a true believer. 495 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 4: And so those of us who have sort of looked 496 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 4: into this Bridgewater triangle, if you expand it just a little, 497 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 4: that includes Fall River, that includes even parts of Rhode Island, 498 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 4: even in Connecticut, and so on, and there's an unusual 499 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 4: amount of strange activity in and around this region. That's 500 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,959 Speaker 4: about two hundred square miles, which I get is a 501 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 4: large area. And if I put any two hundred square 502 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 4: mile area where there's some population, you will find weirdness 503 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 4: and murders and so on. 504 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: Agreed, Every city, every town in this country has history 505 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: history of deception, of betrayal, of murder, of true crime. 506 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: But it seems like it would be hard to find 507 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: an area more steeped in those things than full River. 508 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: I asked Jeff Blanger if folks in the city ever 509 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: grow tired of their most famous public figure. 510 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 4: I'm sure there's people in Fall River that are absolutely 511 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 4: sick of the Lizzy Borden thing. Can we please move 512 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 4: on and be known for something else? And then there's 513 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 4: other people that are just like, hey, how cool. At 514 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 4: least my city's known for something. At least we got that, 515 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 4: you know, at least we're infamous when you go across 516 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 4: the country. 517 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: But infamous right for two horrific murders. On the other hand, 518 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: it does bring people to the city, and it's a 519 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: city that I really like. 520 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 4: It's a love hate relationship, I think, similar to the 521 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 4: way Salem, Massachusetts has a love eight relationship with its 522 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 4: witchy history. You can't argue that it brings in tons 523 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 4: of people. However, I'm sure if you live there, you're like, 524 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 4: could we be known for something else? 525 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: Jeff thinks that Fall River and Salem take different approaches 526 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: to how they tout their street. 527 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 4: Salem's different. I mean, when you put a witch riding 528 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 4: a broomstick on the side of your police car, good 529 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 4: luck playing that down right. But fall River they don't 530 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 4: have hatchets on their town hall, you know, dripping blood. 531 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:16,719 Speaker 4: But however, there are a lot of people that go 532 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 4: there because they're either true crime fans, or they're paranormal fans, 533 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 4: or you know, they just love the macabre. 534 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed my time in fall River. I liked 535 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: the food and the people. I enjoyed learning about true 536 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: crime at the Lizzie Borden House, the place where Sarah 537 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: Maria Cornell died right on the bay, is now a 538 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: park and it's beautiful. The historical society is terrific, and 539 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: even Oak Grove Cemetery is wonderful. Jeff says that just 540 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: like other cities, Fall River has its highlights and it 541 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: has its struggles. 542 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 4: You know, fall River, It's parts of it are really beautiful. 543 00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 4: Parts of it are pretty run down, but you know, 544 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 4: well it's in a great spot by the water. You're, 545 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 4: like I said, you're close to Providence and those opportunities 546 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 4: Providence rud Island. So yeah, it's a unique place where 547 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 4: it's part of it is caught in this like post 548 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 4: industrial rundown, and parts of it are just trying to 549 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 4: reinvent itself with restaurants and bars and exploring the history 550 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 4: and so on. 551 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: And Fall River might find its stride soon. 552 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 4: You know, any place can be revitalized, any place can 553 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 4: be celebrated. And every town has got its great neighborhoods 554 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 4: and it's bad neighborhoods and Fall Rivers no different. 555 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: But those mythical connections might be misleading because every city 556 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: has murders, right, and some of them are weird and unusual. 557 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: But whenever there's a high profile murder in a place 558 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: like Fall River, it's hard not to think about Lizzie 559 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: Borden and that infamous history. 560 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 4: Right, I know, And so and again, it's not the 561 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 4: greatest neighborhood, and bad things happen in not the greatest neighborhood. 562 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 4: So is it us just making connections that aren't there? 563 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 4: It's just coincidence that a few bad things happen in 564 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 4: this small area or is there really something to it? 565 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 4: And that comes down to faith if you believe in it. 566 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 4: Like I said, if you believe in a curse, you're cursed. 567 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 4: There's no way out of it other than to somehow 568 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 4: stop believing that you're cursed. 569 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 1: And so in the end, I'm a yes on ghosts 570 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 1: and spirits and a hard no on curses, especially on 571 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: an entire city, but on a family. Maybe. If you're 572 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: a descendant of Sarah Earl and Thomas Cornell Junior and 573 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,959 Speaker 1: your name is Lizzie Borden, I don't think anyone else 574 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: from that line is cursed, and that includes, of course 575 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: our helpful family relative Carrie Noulty. But boy, Lizzie Borden 576 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: definitely had tragedies all through her family line, and we've 577 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: tied them all together. Rebecca Briggs Cornell might have been 578 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: murdered by her son Thomas and or his wife, Sarah Earle. 579 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: Sarah and Thomas's last child, named Innocent, would become a Bordon. 580 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: Sarah Maria Cornell, the possible murder victim for my new 581 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: book was related to Thomas Cornell, and both Eliza Darling 582 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,240 Speaker 1: Borden and her husband Lodwick were from Thomas and Sarah's 583 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: family lines. Eliza's son William might have been connected to 584 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: that terrible fire across the street from the Borden home, 585 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: And of course Lizzie Borden was in Innocent Borden's direct line, 586 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: as was Lodwick, Lizzie's great uncle. What a mess. I've 587 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: now stopped exploring Bordon murder stories with Lizzie No More Please, 588 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: and Jeff Billanger agrees all things seem to return to 589 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden. 590 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 4: And I think that's part of what captivates us by 591 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 4: this case. And then we spidowe about and we look 592 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 4: for causes because no one was ever punished. It's so frustrating, right, 593 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 4: It makes you crazy. That haunts us, that buildings haunted. 594 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 4: I don't care if you believe in ghosts or not. 595 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 4: It haunts us, It haunts a community, haunts a world. 596 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 4: Why have there been so many damn TV movies made 597 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,879 Speaker 4: out out of the Lizzybordon story? Why are we talking 598 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 4: about it right now? It's not going away? Right, It 599 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 4: just doesn't go away because, damn it, you know, we 600 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:18,720 Speaker 4: know it could happen again. 601 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,279 Speaker 1: Now we've come to the end. I usually like to 602 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: conclude a Tenfold story with a relative, so I asked 603 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: Carrie Nolty one last question to wrap up this very 604 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:41,280 Speaker 1: strange season of Tenfold More Wicked. Does she believe in curses, 605 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: either curses on families or curses on towns, or is 606 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: it something else like generational trauma? 607 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 8: Do you think Fall River is curse? 608 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 9: I don't belie leave in curses per se in terms 609 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,720 Speaker 9: of something that can just damn an area. I believe 610 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 9: in reverberations of personality of people, of choices and actions 611 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 9: and how they affect everyone, rippling down through the years. 612 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 9: And I think that that is a human quality that 613 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 9: we all have to reckon with and we are still 614 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 9: reckoning with. 615 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: And I have to say I think I agree with her. 616 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: A note for my listeners. Tenfold More Wicked launched in 617 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: January of twenty twenty one on Exactly Right, and it 618 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: was my goal to introduce our audience to compelling stories 619 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: in crime history, stories that move you, characters that you'll 620 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: remember even though they may have died hundreds of years ago. 621 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 1: My team and I created twelve seasons of Tenfold, spanning 622 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: from Rhode Island and sixteen hundreds to Austin, Texas in 623 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties. With the conclusion of this season, our twelfth, 624 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,800 Speaker 1: I have decided to bring tenfold More Wicked to a close. 625 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: I am excited to stay with Exactly Right to bring 626 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 1: you a weekly episode of my true crime chat show 627 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: Wicked Words, starting on July eighth. Right here in this 628 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: podcast feed. Plus, I now get to focus on my 629 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: love of historic true crimes on Buried Bones each week 630 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: with Paul Holes. Not to fear. All seasons of Tenfold 631 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 1: will remain here for your future enjoyment. Thanks for the 632 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: love over the last three years, y'all. If you love 633 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 1: true crime, check out my books American Sherlock and All 634 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 1: That Is Wicked. I also have an audio book called 635 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 1: The Ghost Club. I can't wait to tell you the 636 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,359 Speaker 1: real story about the world's most famous ghost hunter, who 637 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 1: was the head of the world's most famous ghost club 638 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: and how he investigated England's most famous haunted house. This 639 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,800 Speaker 1: has been an exactly right tenfold more media production producer 640 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: Jason Whaling, Senior producer Alexis m Rossi, Consulting producer Kyle Ryan, 641 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: sound designer Eric Friend, composer Curtis Heath. Additional music Jeremy Buller, 642 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: artwork Nick Toga. Executive producers Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff and 643 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer.