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Road Scholar offers educational travel adventures for adults 33 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: fifty plus in more than one hundred countries and throughout 34 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: the United States. When you travel with Rhodes Scholar, you'll 35 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: be an active learner, not a passive tourist. Every day 36 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: is thoughtfully planned to open your eyes to new discoveries, ideas, 37 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: and people. You'll learn from local experts and meet others 38 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: who share your passions. Find your next adventure at Rhodescholar. 39 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: Dot org slash iHeart. Before we begin, Please note this 40 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: series includes talk of suicide and sexual violence. Please take 41 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: care while listening. So I guess we can start driving now, 42 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: so we'll just meet you there in ten minutes or 43 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: however you want to eat. So I'm just in the 44 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: car now. Last night the family gave me Sandy's coat 45 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: that she had with her the night that she died, 46 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: and so I'm feeling a great way of responsibility. I'm 47 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: taking the coat with me and We're going to go 48 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: to the cemetery this morning. Sandy's Body's not there, but 49 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 1: there's a marker for her, and I'm just popping in 50 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: the address. We rolling. Yeah, okay, so tell us where 51 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: we are. We're at Greenwood Cemetery. It's I think it's 52 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: the largest one in Jones Sport because there's probably like 53 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: ten cemeteries here, and we are in our family cemetery 54 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: for many generations, many centuries, and we're about to walk 55 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: to where Sandy's memorialize. That's interesting. I wonder what the 56 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: pennies are? Is that just to show that you've been here. 57 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: I wonder what does anyone I know what pennies have 58 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: put on there for the first time I met Kim 59 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: and she told me about Sandy. I don't think she 60 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: imagined her cousin's story would become the subject of an 61 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: entire podcast. A year went by before I asked her 62 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: if she would be willing to embark on this project together. 63 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: I couldn't do it without her buy in, and Kim 64 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: she was immediately one hundred percent a yes, which I 65 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: thought was pretty brave, because when you invite a journalist 66 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: into your life, you're opening yourself up to a lot 67 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: of questioning, not all of which is comfortable or feels natural. 68 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 1: Kim was allowing me to scrutinize her long held belief 69 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: that Sandy was murdered. She was essentially giving me permission 70 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: to check her work and risking the prospect of being 71 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: proven wrong. Early on in the process, she invited me 72 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 1: to come to Maine to meet the whole family and 73 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: to crash a big birthday party for one of her 74 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: relatives who was turning eighty. This trip, it was an 75 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: intense two full days of interviews. For hours at a time. 76 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: I sat down with members of the Bell family, and, 77 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: like an investigative reporter does, I peppered them with questions 78 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: trying to establish the basic undisputed facts of the case, 79 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: and a lot of these questions were directed at Kim, 80 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: as she was my conduit to the family and the 81 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: one who had spent the most time investigating Sandy's death 82 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: on her own. The final day of my trip, we 83 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: drove to the cemetery where Sandy has a grave marker. 84 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: I only had a few minutes before my flight back, 85 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: but I wanted to get Kim's temperature. After a long 86 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: and emotionally grueling weekend, I'm still processing it. It was. 87 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: It was definitely different to dredge it all back up 88 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: the questions that you were asked. I was like, WHOA, 89 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: I've never thought about those things before. And then some 90 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: of the things that we came up with that I 91 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: thought were solid evidence, and now we got to fit 92 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: figure out what it means and what it all was. 93 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: But that was a little disturbing. But the questions you asked, 94 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: we're pretty uh. They caught me by surprise. I have 95 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 1: more questions than I thought I did, and I'll send 96 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: them to you. I'm trusting that it's all going to 97 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: unfold and we'll get the answers that we need to 98 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: help bring some closure for them, well for me too. 99 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you guys came up here. I can't 100 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: believe you'd come to Jonesport, Maine and do this. From 101 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, I'm Melissa Jelson, and this is what 102 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: happened to Sandy Beal and iHeart original podcast, Chapter six, 103 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: Divided Minds. When I first met the Bills in Maine, 104 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: I made them a promise that I would keep an 105 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: open mind and follow the evidence, and I wouldn't be 106 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: swayed by one side or the other. It was clear 107 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: from the get go that there were two opposing sides here. 108 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: Mine so divided that there was very little agreement on 109 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: what the most basic facts meant. The Prince George's County 110 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: Police Department and the Beal family had examined the exact 111 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: same documents, dissected the exact same set of facts, and 112 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: come to wildly divergent conclusions about what happened to Sandy. 113 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: As a pair of fresh eyes on the case, I 114 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: wondered whether both sides were trapped in their own cycles 115 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: of confirmation bias, processing the information in a way that 116 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: aligned with their own preconceived ideas. Like the cardboard under 117 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: the wheels of Sandy's car. The bills interpreted it as 118 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: a signed that Sandy was trying to leave the poleyard 119 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: on the night of her death and wasn't planning to 120 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: die by suicide, But this detail was not even remembered 121 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: by Detective Shishlski. It didn't register as important because it 122 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: didn't fit neatly into his theory. We each are bringing 123 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: our own experiences, our own beliefs, our own desires to 124 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: the table, so that when two people with different mindsets 125 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: are given the same information to look at by virtue 126 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: of their different brains, they may interpret those things in 127 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: very different ways. Jeff Kakuka is a professor of psychology 128 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: at Towson University. He's an expert on how bias can 129 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: influence decision making, including in investigations. In psychology. When we 130 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 1: talk about bias, what we're talking about is kind of 131 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: like a reflex. It's something that our brains do without 132 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: us even realizing that we're doing it. Once you have 133 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: a conclusion in mind, you're no longer sort of taking 134 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: in all the information and evaluating it in an objective way. Instead, 135 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: what tends to happen is people will selectively seek out 136 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: information that fits their existing beliefs, and if they encounter 137 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: any information that goes against their existing beliefs, they'll either 138 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: ignore it or find a way to somehow minimize its 139 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: importance so that they can again sort of continue preserving 140 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: that belief that exists in the first place. There's an 141 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 1: adage that have thought about a lot while making this podcast. 142 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: It's called Hanlan's razor, and it goes like this, never 143 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,719 Speaker 1: attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. 144 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: There's a few different versions of the phrase, and sometimes 145 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: incompetence is subbed for stupidity. This proverb, it's a helpful 146 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: reminder not to immediately assume the worst intentions in the 147 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 1: actions of others, that more often than not people are 148 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: careless or selfish rather than mean spirited or evil. Of course, 149 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: malice exists, but if you look for it everywhere, you 150 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: could risk having a distorted perception of reality. Take, for instance, 151 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: Sandy's original death certificate, issued on February eighteenth, nineteen seventy seven. 152 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: It was given to Joanne back then and has remained 153 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: in her possession ever since. At the bottom of the page, 154 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: there's a line with a medical examiner must indicate the 155 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: manner of death, choosing between natural causes homicide, suicide, accident 156 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: or undetermined. You would expect the box for suicide to 157 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: be checked, but it's not. Instead, there's an X through 158 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: the box undetermined manner of death. It was always an 159 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: odd inconsistency that bothered the family, and a few years 160 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: ago it got even weirder. Kim requested a new copy 161 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: of Sandy's death certificate. When she received the document, she 162 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: was startled to find that the box for suicide now 163 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: had an X two. Kim's immediate impression was that the 164 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: records might have been altered to fit with the police's story, 165 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: and it's entirely possible that the medical examiner's office colluded 166 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: with the police to cover up her death. But the 167 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: possibility also exists that it's just a typo that the 168 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: medical examiner initially stamped the wrong box and fixed it 169 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: later in competence or malice. That's the thing is, these 170 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: biases are so pervasive that they can affect every aspect 171 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: of our decision making without even us realizing that it's happening. 172 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: We have these beliefs, and our brain is wired in 173 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: such a way that leads us to pursue information that 174 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: agrees with our beliefs, rather than pursuing information that might 175 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: prove us wrong, because who likes to be proven wrong. 176 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: There's no sign of identity theft slowing down, and why 177 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: should it. More than twenty nine billion dollars were stolen 178 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,359 Speaker 1: from identity theft victims last year alone. 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Join now and save 189 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: up to twenty five percent off your first year. Go 190 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: to LifeLock dot com slash iHeart that's LifeLock dot com 191 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: slash iHeart to save twenty five percent your first year. 192 00:12:55,480 --> 00:13:01,679 Speaker 1: LifeLock Identity theft Protection starts here. Brand new historical true 193 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: crime podcast. The year is eighteen hundred, City Hall, New York. 194 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,599 Speaker 1: The first murder trial in the American judicial system. A 195 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: man sands trial for the charge of murder. Even with 196 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 1: defense lawyers Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr on the case. 197 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: This is probably the most famous trial you've never heard of. 198 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: When you lay suffering a sudden, violent, brutal death, I 199 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: hope you'll think of me. Starring Alison Williams. I don't 200 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: need anything simplified, mister Hamilton, Thank you, with Tony Goldwyn 201 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: as Alexander Hamilton. Don't be so sad, it doesn't suit you. 202 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: Written and created by me Alison Block. Listen to Erased 203 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: the Murder of Elma Sans. She was a sweet, happy, 204 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: virtuous girl until she met that man. Right there on 205 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to 206 00:13:55,800 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: your podcasts. When Tracey were kel Burns was two years old, 207 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: her baby brother died. I was told that Matthew died 208 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: in an accident, and no one really talked about it. 209 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: Her parents told police she had killed him. Medical records 210 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: faid that I killed my baby brother. I'm Nancy Glass. 211 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: Join me for Burden of Guilt, the new podcast that 212 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: tells the truth an incredible story of a toddler who 213 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: was framed for murder and how she grew into an 214 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: adult determined to get justice and protect her family. While 215 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: we had prosecuted some cold cases, this was the coldest, 216 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: This was frigid. But how does a two year old 217 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: get blamed for murder? She said? We wanted a new life. 218 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: You just don't know what it's like when you'll do 219 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: anything for somebody. Listen to Burden of Guilt on the 220 00:14:55,600 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your I 221 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: notice Jacob is not in his crib, So I look 222 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: at in Sara's She's not there. So I'm like, Okay, 223 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: they're not there. Unrestorable is a new true crime podcast 224 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: that investigates the case of Catherine Hoggele, a mother accused 225 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: of murder. I'm thinking, you know, like what's going on? 226 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: Like this is insane, Like where are my kids? Despite 227 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: signs that Catherine Hoggle took her tiny children one by 228 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: one into the night, never to come home again, she 229 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: has yet to stand trial because soon after her children 230 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: went missing, she was declared incompetent to stand trial. We 231 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: have a blueprint to get away with murder in the 232 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: state of Maryland. At this point. In Maryland, if a 233 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: defendant is found incompetent and can't be restored to competency, 234 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: their felony charges are dismissed after five years. So as 235 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: the clock counts down Catherine's charges on the urge of 236 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: being dismissed. What does justice look like in this case? 237 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: Something wrong here? You know, whenever one was allowed to 238 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: kill my two kids. Listen to Unrestorable on the iHeartRadio app, 239 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and to 240 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: hear the show completely. Add free subscribe to the iHeart 241 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus. 242 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: You'll get add free access to dozens of hit true 243 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: crime shows like Paper Ghosts, Betrayal, and The Idaho Massacre. 244 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: Head into Safeway for great deals throughout the store this week. 245 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: At Safeway, get value packs of USDA Choice boneless beef 246 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: Try Tip Roast, or sixteen to twenty count bags of 247 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: Waterfront Bistro Extra Jumbo raw shrimp for three ninety seven 248 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: per pound with digital coupon limit two packages. Plus, get 249 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: two pound packages of large strawberries for the member price 250 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: of four ninety nine each. Also this week at Safeway, 251 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: get Signature Farms ninety percent lean ground beef or sixteen 252 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: ounce packages of Geneo ground turkey varieties by one and 253 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: get one free. Visitsafeway dot com. We're head in store 254 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 1: for more deals. It's understandable why Kim and the rest 255 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: of the Bill family was suspicious of Prince George's County 256 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: police because the investigation into Sandy's death was tainted by 257 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: a clear conflict of interest. Sandy was a police trainee 258 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: and her car was filled with evidence linking her to 259 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: local cops. And if PG County police officers were willing 260 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: to cover up their sexual misconduct, what other wrongdoing were 261 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: they capable of? If Shozhelsky could forget the cardboard, what 262 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: other inconvenient facts might have evaded his memory? Without trust 263 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: in the police, the Bills were skeptical of everything they 264 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 1: were told. And this is where I thought I could 265 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 1: be of help. I wanted to bring in some unbiased 266 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: experts to try to recreate what happened that night in 267 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: the Polyard, inserting some impartiality into Sandy's case. That's how 268 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: I met Paul Yuribay. A certified forensic pathologist who has 269 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: worked for the US Army as well as local and 270 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: state agencies. He told me he's performed over fifteen hundred 271 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: autopsies in his career, and hundreds of those have been suicides. 272 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: I gave him the rundown on Sandy's case, the keys 273 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: in the ignition and the cardboard under the wheels while 274 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: she's in the mud. That might indicate that Sandy had 275 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 1: been trying to leave the location that she was at. 276 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: How do you interpret this kind of information in the 277 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 1: context of a suicide. I would lump that in with Okay, 278 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: what's the timeline, what happened in the hours before her death? 279 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: You know, even you know, going back like twenty four hours. 280 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: Why was she there, who was she meeting with? Who 281 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 1: did she have relations with? You know? And that would 282 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: answer the question why are their cardboard under the tires? 283 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: All these questions he's asking, they're great ones. We don't 284 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: have answers to them, though, because PG County Police closed 285 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: the case before establishing these facts, that on its face 286 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: isn't necessarily suspect, Paul said. Is every death investigated to 287 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: the absolute extreme of pushing the investigation as far as 288 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: we can interviewing absolutely everyone possible, and you know, doing 289 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: a full court US on every case. No, And that's 290 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 1: just that's that's largely a matter of resources and resource allocation. 291 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: This reminded me of what Detective Shoszelski told me about 292 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 1: how overworked and understaffed he was back in the nineteen seventies. 293 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 1: I mean they put us like bouns. They really did. 294 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: Shazelski told me that his immediate read of the scene 295 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: was that of a suicide. There was ample evidence of it, 296 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: he said, and one of the biggest factors was the 297 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: gun if it was an homicide. If it was a murder, 298 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 1: First that I don't think the tiller would have left 299 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: the gun there. Number one. Then when I found out 300 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: the gun belonged to her father, it's not likely that 301 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: someone would have murdered her with her father's gun. But 302 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: from the Bill's perspective, the gun is the most important 303 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: piece of evidence that proves Sandy didn't die by suicide. 304 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: The gun isn't abstract to them. It was returned to 305 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: the family after Sandy's death. Sandy's brothers have shot it. 306 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 1: They know the power it takes, the kickback after you 307 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,959 Speaker 1: pull the trigger, and based on their personal experience, they 308 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: came to believe she couldn't have shot herself with it, 309 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: not that Sandy wouldn't, although they also believe that, but 310 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,400 Speaker 1: that she couldn't. That the physical evidence just didn't line up. 311 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: Here's Michael and Stephen. The thing about that gun was 312 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: at three fifty seven, and it was a long gun, 313 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: long barrel, right, and when that damn thing kicked, when 314 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 1: you shot that thing, it kicked, I mean it had 315 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: a kick to it, so she would have to use 316 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: two hands in order to shoot it. And the trigger 317 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: wasn't a hair trigger either. It had a couple of 318 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: pounds of pull. So that's the other thing, you know. 319 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,719 Speaker 1: That kind of got me about why they said she 320 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: would shoot herself, because if she was able to manage that, 321 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: that frigging gun would have shot off, would have taken 322 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 1: off right through the side glass window. And Kim shared 323 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 1: this opinion that it was impossible Sandy shot herself. And 324 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: when I met with the Prince George's County police, they 325 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: were so insistent on you just don't understand. We've seen 326 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: lots of things like that. And I finally just said, 327 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: if you can prove to me through ballistics and show 328 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: me the trajectory and all the opportunities that this was suicide, 329 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: then I'll believe you. But not until then all your 330 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: evidence completely goes against the evidence that I have. She 331 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 1: didn't commit suicide. Listening to Detective Shozhlski and the Biel family, 332 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 1: I was faced with two different interpretations of the same evidence, 333 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: and so I asked Paul for his opinion, and he 334 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: turned my attention to Sandy's hands. When you fire a revolver, 335 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: especially at three fifty seven magnum, there's a lot of 336 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: gunpowder that explodes, and a lot of that gunpowder comes 337 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: out through what's called the cylinder gap. So say, if 338 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: you have your hand over that cylinder gap, or even 339 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 1: adjacent to it, when you discharge it, you can get 340 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 1: you know, stood on your hand. That way, both of 341 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,959 Speaker 1: Sandy's hands had gunpowder on them. According to the police report. 342 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: Paul said he would interpret this to mean that Sandy 343 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: was either holding the gun or had her hands very 344 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: close to it when it was fired. So would it 345 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: be possible to have stood on your hands and not 346 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: have been the one to pull the trigger If you 347 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: were in a small, enclosed environment, it could be like 348 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: if you were grabbing for the gun to push it 349 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: away or something like that. I've done cases where two 350 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: people are struggling for a gun and the gun goes off, 351 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: and it's very difficult to tell who, you know, who 352 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: pulled the trigger, because they both might have had their 353 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: finger on the trigger, or someone had their finger on 354 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: the trigger, and the other person, you know, is grabbing 355 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 1: their hand to try and either keep them from pulling 356 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: the usually to keep them from pulling the trigger. Paul 357 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: pointed out that Sandy was also shot at very close range, 358 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 1: which is characteristic of a suicide. Now, if it's a 359 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: contact wound, it's either one of two things. Either, you know, 360 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 1: the person put the gun to their head and pulled 361 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: the trigger in this case, put the gun to you know, 362 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: she put the gun to her abdomen and pull the trigger, 363 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: or someone else put the gun to her abdomen and 364 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: pull the trigger. And then that's where, Okay, we're looking 365 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: for We're looking for others to support that or rule 366 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: that out. So I can tell you the range, I 367 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: can tell you the trajectory. I can tell you what 368 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: it injured. I can tell you you know, I can 369 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: give you maybe a little estimate of survivability. Maybe so 370 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: I can tell you all of those things, but I 371 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: can't tell you who shot it. I asked him about 372 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: the lack of fingerprints on the gun. Turns out Paul 373 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: didn't find this that unusual. Firearms are notoriously hard to 374 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: test for prints. One study estimated that fingerprints are recovered 375 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: from firearms only about thirteen percent of the time, and 376 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: that's nowadays because of say, you know the texture on 377 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: the handle, or you know, just a partial print at 378 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 1: a odd location of the gun, they might not be 379 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 1: able to get it. And I would also have to know, Okay, 380 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: what is the finger printing policies and procedures of the 381 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: Prince George's comp a Police Department's circa nineteen seventy seven, 382 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: and did they follow that procedure. Reading the autopsy report, 383 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: Sandy's gunshot wound is described in excruciating and impersonal detail. Quote. 384 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 1: The wound is slightly ovoid, a quarter inch in diameter, 385 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,360 Speaker 1: and is surrounded by an eighth inch rim of abrasion 386 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: resembling muzzle imprint. Powder is noted in the wound margins. 387 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: I asked Paul, based on everything that's in the autopsy 388 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: and the police report and taking into consideration the family's 389 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: significant questions, if it was possible that Sandy shot herself, 390 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: if you put your hand right at the base of 391 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 1: your ribcage or base of your sternum, move it over 392 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: about three inches to the bottom of your rib margin, 393 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: that's where the entrance was now. Once again, if she 394 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: were to do this herself, she could fire the gun 395 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: essentially holding the handle of the gun with her gun 396 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: with her with her left thumb on the trigger, which 397 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: is sort of like holding it backwards essentially, which is 398 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: consistent with her kind of holding her left hand across 399 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: her body, so to speak, and then likely firing the 400 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: gun with her thumb on the trigger. And that could 401 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: also explain why they didn't find any fingerprints on the gun. 402 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 1: As well. Paul could see a scenario in which Sandy 403 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: shot herself and caused the injuries described in her autopsy. 404 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: What had been unthinkable to the Bills was a real 405 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: probability to Paul. Still, he admitted that the case was unusual. 406 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: How many times in your career, if you remember, have 407 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: you seen a teenage girl shoot her so candful, Probably 408 00:26:50,080 --> 00:27:03,239 Speaker 1: less than five. Ever in the ab Hut no a 409 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: brand new historical true crime podcast. The year is eighteen hundred, 410 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: City Hall, New York. The first murder trial in the 411 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: American judicial system, a massance trial for the charge of murder. 412 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: Even with defense lawyers Alexander Hamilton and Erin Burr on 413 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 1: the case, this is probably the most famous trial you've 414 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: never heard of. When you lay suffering a sudden, violent, 415 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: brutal death, I hope you'll think of me. Starring Alison Williams. 416 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 1: I don't need anything simplified, mister Hamilton, Thank you, with 417 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 1: Tony Goldwyn as Alexander Hamilton. Don't be so sad, friend, 418 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 1: it doesn't suit you. Written and created by me Alison Flock. 419 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: Listen to Erased the Murder of Elma Sans. 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Her family knew her to be cheerful, focused, hardworking. 459 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: She was a well adjusted kid who they trusted and 460 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: based on their knowledge of her as a daughter and 461 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: a sister and a cousin, they didn't believe Sandy would 462 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: take her own life. It was incomprehensible to them. It 463 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: didn't match the person they knew. But during this reporting, 464 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: I found out a lot of things they didn't know 465 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,959 Speaker 1: about Sandy, things that were happening in her life, and 466 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: as painful as it is to contemplate now, there's probably 467 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: a lot they didn't know about how she was feeling. 468 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: Sandy died surrounded by police paraphernalia. Her dashboard held a 469 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: shifts schedule card, a duty rig and newspaper clippings about cops, 470 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: and she was found in a location where cops liked 471 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: to gather. Her family believed that she was protected in 472 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: the presence of police, but I think it's more likely 473 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: that all that time she spent hanging out with them 474 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: was actually an opportunity for abuse. From what I've discovered, 475 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: it seems obvious that at least some police officers took 476 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: advantage of Sandy, pursuing inappropriate sexual relationships with the teenager, 477 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: and in this climate, Sandy became pregnant and had an 478 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: abortion in secret. If she was being mistreated by police, 479 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: then I imagined she would have felt very alone, possibly scared, 480 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: and she probably didn't know how to make it stop. 481 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: Sandy kept these painful parts of her life hidden. She 482 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: presented to the outside world as fine, and to her 483 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: family this was strong evidence that she couldn't have died 484 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: by suicide because they didn't see it coming. Their assumption 485 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: about suicide was that if Sandy had been considering it, 486 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: her pain would have been so visible it could not 487 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:29,239 Speaker 1: go unnoticed. But that's not always the case. And if 488 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: you think about human nature, what makes it up? Purpose, meaning, contribution, 489 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: and connection. Thomas Joyner is a researcher at Florida State University. 490 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: He spends his days researching ways to prevent suicide. It's 491 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: a deep puzzle about human nature about why this would happen. 492 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: The bills have not been able to answer this, why 493 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: Sandy would have thought that this was the best option 494 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: for her, And this question is the subject of Thomas's research, 495 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: which explores what's happening in the minds of people who 496 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: are suicidal. If you become that convinced that you're a 497 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: burden on other people, and if you feel like you're 498 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: disconnected and cut off, ostracized, alienated, if you feel those 499 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: two things deeply and then also permanently that they're intractable, 500 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: that they'll never change, that mixture is the danger zone 501 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: where people might take their lives. Of those who find 502 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: themselves in this dangerous zone, a feeling deeply alienated, a 503 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: burden to others, and convinced that those feelings will never change. 504 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: Not all attempts suicide. The vast majority of people who 505 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: experience suicidal ideation do not act on it. To put 506 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: it in perspective, around forty six thousand people die from 507 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: suicide every year in the US, about a million more attempted, 508 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: and many many more. Around twelve million peopleeople seriously think 509 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, it's one thing to talk about death 510 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: in the abstract, but to actually face it in reality 511 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: totally different matter. Not everybody has. The wreck was the fearlessness, pain, tolerance, 512 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 1: even practical knowledge to have the capacity to even enact suicide, 513 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 1: even if they really genuinely desire to do so. Did 514 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: Sandy have those things? I know she had access to 515 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,399 Speaker 1: a gun her father's, and her brother Michael actually told 516 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: me that he'd seen Sandy take it on a few occasions. 517 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 1: Sandy said she was borrowing the gun for target practice. 518 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: So it follows that Sandy would have known how to 519 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 1: use it. And suicide as a form of death, of course, 520 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: is fearsome and scary and daunting, and so to face 521 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,959 Speaker 1: it fully, to steer it down, you need a capacity 522 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 1: to do that. Not everybody has it. I told Thomas 523 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: about the beals is vivid memory of Sandy as a happy, 524 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: high functioning teenager. Sometimes it does look like that suicide 525 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 1: does look sudden. What does that mean? Does it mean 526 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: it was truly impulsive? Or might it mean, for example, 527 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: that the person was very successful in concealing their ongoing 528 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: misery and planning. And I think it's the latter. I 529 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,919 Speaker 1: think it's clearly the latter. But there is debate about that, 530 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 1: and that can hurt to the loved ones. And it 531 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: seems like she would have told us, you know, we're 532 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,320 Speaker 1: the family, we're the loved ones. But a way to 533 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: understand that is that she felt maybe that this was 534 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,760 Speaker 1: a profound burden that she's carrying, that she's a burden 535 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: to everybody. She felt that maybe on the inside, to 536 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:57,840 Speaker 1: share that with others, in her view, might have further 537 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 1: burdened them. Sudden death in anyone is a tragedy, and 538 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what the cause was. That's gonna grieve 539 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: families and trouble families for years or even decades. And 540 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: then to add the additional layer of it wasn't just 541 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,360 Speaker 1: an accident. Or an illness. They took their own laves. 542 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: That hurts, That really hurts. And I don't think it 543 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 1: need be very different than a car accident or a 544 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: heart attack. But to get to that place, you have 545 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 1: to have a particular understanding of the suicidal mindset that 546 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: most people, most families don't have. I asked Thomas what 547 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,799 Speaker 1: to make of the fact that Sandy had plans for 548 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: the future. She was moving to Maine, she was actively 549 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: pursuing a career in law enforcement. Even her abortion could 550 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: be considered a sign that she was thinking ahead, planning 551 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 1: for the life she wanted. She was still balancing her 552 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 1: checkbook right before she died. If you have plans, it 553 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 1: either means that suicide's not on your mind at all. 554 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: It can mean that, or if you have plans, it 555 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: can mean that there's a struggle going on in your mind, 556 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: an argument, a debate between death and life, an ambivalence 557 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 1: that's going back and forth, tilting back and forth, and 558 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: when it tilts toward death, planning for future activities ceases 559 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: pretty much, and planning for suicide kicks in. And then 560 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: when it tilts back towards the other side of the ambivalence, 561 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: towards life, then you might, you know, put the suicide 562 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,839 Speaker 1: planning on the shelf, so to speak, and kick in 563 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 1: plans for activities. And so most go through this ambivalence 564 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 1: process than most or all will have plans for tomorrow, 565 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,919 Speaker 1: plans for next week, just like getting one else. Well, 566 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: it's a striking concept that someone could be planning their 567 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: life one minute then end at the next And it 568 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: made me think once more about the cardboard under Sandy's tires. 569 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: Could Sandy have been experiencing a struggle in her mind, 570 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: feeling ambivalence between life and death. Maybe at some point 571 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: she was planning on leaving the pole lyard until she 572 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 1: made a new plan. I told all of this to Kim, 573 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: what I learned from Thomas about suicide and what I 574 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 1: gleaned from Paul, who reviewed Sandy's autopsy with me, and 575 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: she listened, took in all the facts with a gentle 576 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: smile and a deferential nod. It was something she would 577 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 1: need to think about, she told me. So we casually 578 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,240 Speaker 1: said goodbye, and I expected to hear from her soon, 579 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 1: and I did, because as I've been reporting the story, 580 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: Kim has relentlessly continued her own parallel investigation. Every time 581 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: I spoke to her, she had her sight set on 582 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: something new, a new document to obtain or piece of 583 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: evidence to examine. On her list of critical items to 584 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,919 Speaker 1: track down was Sandy's full medical file, which was held 585 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,840 Speaker 1: at the Medical Examiner's office in Maryland. Kim left me 586 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: this voice memo after her last visit there. Okay, it 587 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: is I think the twenty second at three o'clock. I 588 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:42,359 Speaker 1: just left the Medical Examiner's office. And when I got there, 589 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: it was like God just opened the doors, because the 590 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: door just opened, and she's like, Okay, come on in. 591 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: So I got right up to the fourth floor and 592 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 1: this really nice lady named Linda, and she was just 593 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 1: most helpful and called the medical records. Medical records were 594 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,399 Speaker 1: foramiliar with my name already, which was kind of cool, 595 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: you know. And I've was showing her, Oh, I have 596 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 1: the autopsy report. I don't need the autopsy report. I 597 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: need the medical records. I need slides, I need anything 598 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,359 Speaker 1: else in there that could help me get this case reopened. 599 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 1: Although she already had Sandy's autopsy, she knew it was 600 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 1: only part of the file on her cousin's death. She 601 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: wanted to see what else she might be able to 602 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 1: discover hidden in the depths of the archives. Specifically, she 603 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: was looking for biological evidence the sperm that was collected 604 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: from Sandy's body to see if it could be tested 605 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 1: for DNA, and she was looking for photos, which she 606 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 1: hoped would offer new insight into Sandy's death. And after 607 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 1: about a half hour, Mike came out and very nice guy. 608 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:51,879 Speaker 1: He's retired firefighter, a retired vet from army. He said, 609 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 1: for sure, for any DNA, I'm going to have to 610 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,879 Speaker 1: get a subpoena. There's absolutely no way around it. He said. 611 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 1: There's probably going to be pictures in there, so that's 612 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: where we're Standy is very helpful. I know he'll help me. 613 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: I think I've got their curiosity intrigued anyway, so I 614 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,759 Speaker 1: do feel like they're gonna help me. Her ultimate goal 615 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 1: was to stumble onto something, anything that might get Sandy's 616 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 1: case reopened, forcing Prince George's County to take a deeper look. 617 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 1: So I don't know, if we could just get them 618 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 1: to open it, that would be really awesome. I don't 619 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:35,200 Speaker 1: likely see that happening because they're pretty convinced that this 620 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 1: is a suicide. Reopening the case would mean that it 621 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 1: would be considered an active investigation. Again. It would mean 622 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: that the police might interview Doug, or test the sperm, 623 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 1: or track down the cops that supervised Sandy in the 624 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:55,240 Speaker 1: Explorer program so many years ago. Anyway, that's where we stand. 625 00:41:55,320 --> 00:42:04,239 Speaker 1: It was a good meeting, we'll see. Kim flew back 626 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: to Texas with a new agenda of trying to get 627 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,240 Speaker 1: a subpoena to retrieve and test the DNA in Sandy's file, 628 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,240 Speaker 1: But before she could follow through, she received an email. 629 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: It was from Bernie Nelson, a cold case detective from 630 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:22,320 Speaker 1: Prince George's County. He wanted to meet Kim in person 631 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 1: to talk. I asked if I could tape the conversation, 632 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: and PG County said no. But Kim met with him 633 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 1: and that meeting changed everything. So this is eleven o'clock 634 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 1: on Monday morning. He asks, so how did all this 635 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: podcast stuff happen? We've talked a lot about suicide this episode. 636 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 1: If you or someone you know as considering self harm, 637 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,440 Speaker 1: please contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at one eight 638 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: hundred two seven three eight to two, or texts Strength 639 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,920 Speaker 1: to Crisis text Line at seven four to one seven 640 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:12,560 Speaker 1: four to one. What Happened to Sandy Beale is hosted 641 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 1: by me Melissa Jelson. It's written and produced by me 642 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,720 Speaker 1: and Katrina Norvel. The podcast is edited by Abu Safar, 643 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: sound designed by Aaron Kaufman. Jason English is our executive producer. 644 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,919 Speaker 1: Research and production assistance by Marisa Brown. To find out 645 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 1: more about my investigation, follow me on Twitter at quasimado. 646 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: That's qu as I am a d Oh. Thanks so 647 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:49,799 Speaker 1: much for listening a brand new historical true crime podcast. 648 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 1: When you lay suffering a sudden brutal death starring Alison 649 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,400 Speaker 1: william I hope you'll think of me. Erased the Murder 650 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,399 Speaker 1: of Elba Saans. She was a sweet, happy, virtuous girl 651 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,360 Speaker 1: until she met that man right there. Written and created 652 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 1: by me, Alison Flack. Is it possible? So we're standing 653 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 1: by for your answer. Erased the Murder of Elma Sans 654 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 655 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 1: to your podcasts. When Tracey, who were killed Burns was 656 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,719 Speaker 1: two years old, her baby brother died. I was told 657 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: that Matthew died in an accident. Her parents told police 658 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,680 Speaker 1: she had killed him. I'm Nancy Glass. Join me for 659 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: Burden of Guilt, the new podcast that tells the truth 660 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,880 Speaker 1: an incredible story of a toddler who was framed for murder. 661 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,399 Speaker 1: Listen to Burden of Guilt on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 662 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. The System's broken. I 663 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,080 Speaker 1: said something's wrong her, you know, whenever a woe is 664 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 1: allowed to kill my two kids. Unrestorable is a new 665 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 1: true crime podcast that investigates the case of Catherine Hoggle, 666 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: a mother accused of murder. Despite signs that Catherine Hoggle 667 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,839 Speaker 1: took her tiny children one by one into the night, 668 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,440 Speaker 1: never to come home again, she has yet to stand trial. 669 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 1: Listen to Unrestorable on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or 670 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, and to hear the show 671 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,160 Speaker 1: completely ad free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, 672 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:32,359 Speaker 1: available exclusively on Apple Podcasts Plus. You'll get ad free 673 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 1: access to dozens of hit true crime shows like Paper Ghosts, Betrayal, 674 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 1: and The Idaho Massacre. Hey guys, Britton Laurie here from 675 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: Life on Cop podcast. We are the number one Dating 676 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,920 Speaker 1: in Relationships podcasts in Australia because we do things different 677 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 1: down on them. We cover everything from dating, sex, relationships, 678 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:54,160 Speaker 1: and pop cult sha. We chat with a lot of 679 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: experts about things like love, cheating, narcissist because we both 680 00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:01,560 Speaker 1: dated one, long distance, fertility community and breakups, and we 681 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:03,799 Speaker 1: talk to some people you might be familiar with, like 682 00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:08,800 Speaker 1: Rebel Wilson, Matthew Hussy, Stephen Bartlett, Joan McNally, and Mark Manson. 683 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:10,799 Speaker 1: You can join us while we unpack it all by 684 00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 1: searching for life on cut Now, wherever you get your podcasts, 685 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,520 Speaker 1: You're going to die. I guess I should have softened 686 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:19,719 Speaker 1: that a little. Someday you're gonna die. We all are. 687 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,320 Speaker 1: I'm Kyle McMahon, and after my mom passed away, I 688 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:24,440 Speaker 1: went on a journey to talk with the world's foremost 689 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,359 Speaker 1: experts on death and grief for my new series Death 690 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,760 Speaker 1: Grief and others we don't discuss, from conducting a seance 691 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,800 Speaker 1: to talking with near death experiencers and everything in between. 692 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:35,600 Speaker 1: I hope you'll join me on that journey, and you 693 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:37,759 Speaker 1: should probably do it soon, because who knows how long 694 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: you're going to be around death, Grief and others we 695 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,760 Speaker 1: don't discuss. Available now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever 696 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.