WEBVTT - The Premonition

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin Hey against the rules. Listeners, this is Catherine Gerardo.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm one of the producers on the show. We're hard

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<v Speaker 1>at work on season three, which will come out this fall. Meanwhile,

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<v Speaker 1>like most of us, our host Michael Lewis, spent a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of the last year cowering in his home, trying

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<v Speaker 1>to find solace in Netflix and take out from his

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<v Speaker 1>local deli. But unlike most of us, he also wrote

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<v Speaker 1>a book during the pandemic. He wanted to report on

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<v Speaker 1>people who saw it coming and did their best to

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<v Speaker 1>stop it. The book is called The Premonition, and we

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<v Speaker 1>got him to read a chapter of it just for

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<v Speaker 1>you a heads up. It contained some salty language and

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<v Speaker 1>a somewhat graphic medical see Anyway, here's Michael The Premonition,

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<v Speaker 1>Chapter one Dragon. By the time Charity heard about the

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<v Speaker 1>young woman, it was too late to help. The woman

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<v Speaker 1>was on life support in the Santa Barbara County Hospital.

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<v Speaker 1>The doctors had just found tuberculosis in her brain. Before

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<v Speaker 1>they could find anything more, she was dead and that

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<v Speaker 1>was just the start of the problem. Doctor Charity Deane

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<v Speaker 1>was the newly appointed chief Health Officer for Santa Barbara County.

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<v Speaker 1>A health officer was a stopper of things, and the

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<v Speaker 1>most important thing Charity was meant to stop, in her view,

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<v Speaker 1>was people from giving diseases to their fellow citizens. Michael

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<v Speaker 1>Bacterium tuberculosis moves through droplets in the breath of the

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<v Speaker 1>infected person and is able to hang in the air

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<v Speaker 1>for impressive stretches. The vast majority of the risk is

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<v Speaker 1>in the first hour, but it may be there for two,

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<v Speaker 1>three or four hours, said Charity. No one actually knows.

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<v Speaker 1>That's Charity re enacting herself. There were other things about

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<v Speaker 1>TB that no one knew. Some TB patients infected no one,

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<v Speaker 1>and others infected huge numbers. No one knew why. No

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<v Speaker 1>one knew why some people were super spreaders was at

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<v Speaker 1>their behavior, their biology, the biology of their particular case

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<v Speaker 1>of TB. The disease had been around basically forever. At

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<v Speaker 1>the turn of the twentieth century, it was the leading

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<v Speaker 1>killer of human beings and it remains in many ways

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<v Speaker 1>a mystery. It's the most intriguing infectious disease, said Charity.

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<v Speaker 1>My favorite infectious disease. It can do anything or be

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<v Speaker 1>anywhere in the body. We've had TB of the uterus,

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<v Speaker 1>of the eye, of the finger. Once in Niesare, she

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<v Speaker 1>treated a man whose TB had started in his lungs,

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<v Speaker 1>wormed its way through his chest wall, and finally oozed

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<v Speaker 1>in hus down the side of its torso. To move

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<v Speaker 1>from one person to another, however, TB needed to invade

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<v Speaker 1>the lungs. The young woman in the Santa Barbara County

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<v Speaker 1>Hospital had been diagnosed with tuberculosis of the brain, and

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<v Speaker 1>had the bacteria confined itself to her brain, it would

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<v Speaker 1>have threatened no one. If it had found its way

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<v Speaker 1>into her lungs, it had the power to kill, and

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<v Speaker 1>thirty percent of the people who had TB in their

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<v Speaker 1>brain had it also in their lungs. Santa Barbara County

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<v Speaker 1>had become almost famous, at least in disease control circles,

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<v Speaker 1>for both the number and sheer terror of its tuberculosis cases.

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<v Speaker 1>When people heard this, they didn't quite believe it. At

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<v Speaker 1>first glance. The county was a tranquil eden of beige

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<v Speaker 1>boulders and golden grass and California oaks. Oprah lived there,

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<v Speaker 1>Ellen lived there. The great estates in the foothills overlooking

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<v Speaker 1>the sea blended into one another to form a single

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<v Speaker 1>tapestry of American affluence. Even the ocean felt private. But

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<v Speaker 1>Santa Barbara County was both bigger and more complicated than

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<v Speaker 1>it seemed. It had the highest rate of child poverty

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<v Speaker 1>in the state. It sheltered maybe fifty thousand non citizens

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<v Speaker 1>in abject squalor plus. All hell could break loose at

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<v Speaker 1>any time. Wildfires and mudslides and oil spills and mass

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<v Speaker 1>shootings scratched the surface of paradise, and you were plunged

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<v Speaker 1>into the book of job. The chief health officer of

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<v Speaker 1>Santa Barbara County never knew exactly where, or when or

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<v Speaker 1>how the next TB outbreak might occur. The young woman

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<v Speaker 1>who just died in the county hospital illustrated the point.

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<v Speaker 1>No one had any idea she even had tuberculosis until

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<v Speaker 1>she was on her deathbed. She'd had a husband and children,

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<v Speaker 1>She'd lived in a crowded neighborhood. She'd worked inside a

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<v Speaker 1>massive open plan office alongside three hundred other people. If

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<v Speaker 1>the TB had reached her lungs, anyone should been anywhere

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<v Speaker 1>near was now in mortal danger. That was Charity Deane's

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<v Speaker 1>immediate problem. To figure out who, if any one, might

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<v Speaker 1>be infected. She'd need to test tissue from the woman's lung.

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<v Speaker 1>If the test came out positive, she need to call

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<v Speaker 1>the company that employed the young woman and shut it

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<v Speaker 1>down for long enough to test all three hundred of

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<v Speaker 1>its employees, along with anyone they might have infected, along

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<v Speaker 1>with anyone they might have infected, and on and on.

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<v Speaker 1>In short, she might need to alert and alarm a

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<v Speaker 1>big chunk of Santa Barbara County. But who was she?

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<v Speaker 1>A nobody. Hardly any one in Santa Barbara County knew

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<v Speaker 1>who she was or what she did all day She

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<v Speaker 1>was invisible. Three years earlier, in two thousand and eleven,

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<v Speaker 1>Charity had been a thirty two year old resident in

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<v Speaker 1>internal medicine, pregnant for the third time in five years,

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<v Speaker 1>when the Santa Barbara County medical director had asked her

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<v Speaker 1>if she consider feeling an opening he had for a

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<v Speaker 1>deputy health officer. The county required its health officers to

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<v Speaker 1>possess both a medical degree and a master's in public health,

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<v Speaker 1>and she had both. He also mentioned in passing, but

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<v Speaker 1>so that Charity heard it loud and clear that the

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<v Speaker 1>luxury she had of being married to a rich surgeon

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<v Speaker 1>meant that she could afford to take the job. The

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<v Speaker 1>job had no obvious appeal, at least to a normal

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<v Speaker 1>young doctor. It paid a third of what she could

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<v Speaker 1>earn starting out in the private practices that had already

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<v Speaker 1>asked her to work for them. Doctors of Santa Barbara

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<v Speaker 1>already referred to themselves as the working poor. Being a

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<v Speaker 1>doctor in Santa Barbara without being paid like one, well,

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<v Speaker 1>that was insane. Everyone tried to talk me out of it,

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<v Speaker 1>said Charity. People couldn't believe it. They were like, you

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<v Speaker 1>aren't seriously thinking of going to work for the county.

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<v Speaker 1>They thought it meant that I was going to be

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<v Speaker 1>a doctor down in the shiitthole basement of the County Clinic.

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<v Speaker 1>The County clinic was where poor people without health insurance

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<v Speaker 1>went for treatment. It was housed inside a decrepit facility

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<v Speaker 1>erected a century earlier on the outskirts of Santa Barbara

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<v Speaker 1>as a sanatorium for tuberculosis patients. Charity still found herself

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<v Speaker 1>drawn to the job. I couldn't figure out why my

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<v Speaker 1>heart strings were tugged. The medical director handed her a

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<v Speaker 1>thick binder whose pages described the job in detail. The

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<v Speaker 1>Health Officers Authority in California it was called She read

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<v Speaker 1>it closely. Health officers in California, like health officers across

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<v Speaker 1>the United States and the rest of the free world,

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<v Speaker 1>had a long list of responsibilities registering births and deaths,

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<v Speaker 1>inspecting restaurants, counting bacteria in ocean water and swimming pools,

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<v Speaker 1>managing chronic disease. None of that really interested her. Then

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<v Speaker 1>she saw the phrase communicable disease controller. It was an

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<v Speaker 1>official state role played by local health officers. Her mind

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<v Speaker 1>lit up. I don't really care about obesity or diabetes.

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<v Speaker 1>I actually don't give a shit about chronic disease. What

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<v Speaker 1>I like is a crisis. What she more than liked

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<v Speaker 1>was the kind of crisis that might be created by

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<v Speaker 1>a communicable disease. She knew it sounded odd, but she

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<v Speaker 1>had been consumed by this interest since she was a

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<v Speaker 1>small child. Disease had shaped history, disease had crippled societies,

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<v Speaker 1>but that's not why, at the age of seven, she'd

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<v Speaker 1>become obsessed with it. It was gruesome death, it was

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<v Speaker 1>the human powerlessness over it. In middle school, she'd created

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<v Speaker 1>styrofoam models of viruses and hung them from her bedroom ceiling,

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<v Speaker 1>just so I could stare at them and think about them.

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<v Speaker 1>She taught herself French so that when the time came

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<v Speaker 1>to move to West Africa to chase disease, as she

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<v Speaker 1>assumed she one day would do, she'd have the ability

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<v Speaker 1>to communicate. In college, as a microbiology major, she stay

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<v Speaker 1>up late reading about yellow fever, tuberculosis in Spanish flu.

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<v Speaker 1>My favorite microbes in college were the human pathogens that

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<v Speaker 1>caused horrific disease, she recalled. I mean, nobody cares about

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<v Speaker 1>plant viruses. In medical school at Tulane University, she'd ignored

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<v Speaker 1>the derision of her fellow doctors and studied at the

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<v Speaker 1>same time for a master's degree in public health, but

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<v Speaker 1>only because Tulane unusually offered a degree with a focus

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<v Speaker 1>on tropical disease. After that, she'd gone to Gabone and

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<v Speaker 1>Niger to work as a doctor, in part because the

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<v Speaker 1>odds seemed to her pretty good that whatever disease was

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<v Speaker 1>going to replicate the destruction of past plagues would come

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<v Speaker 1>from Africa. She knew that her obsession with pandemic disease

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<v Speaker 1>was unusual, even off putting. I learned not to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about it because when I talked about it, people thought

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<v Speaker 1>I was crazy. But the fact remained that from a

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<v Speaker 1>very young age, when she was feeling low, she had

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<v Speaker 1>cheered herself up by reading books on bubonic plague. The

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<v Speaker 1>ones with the grisly drawings she liked best. She read

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<v Speaker 1>more of the fine print in the binder describing the

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<v Speaker 1>role of the local public health officer. One sentence struck

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<v Speaker 1>her as more important than all the others combined. Quote

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<v Speaker 1>Each health officer, knowing or having reason to believe that

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<v Speaker 1>any case of the diseases made reportable by regulation of

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<v Speaker 1>the department, or any other contagious, infectious, or communicable disease

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<v Speaker 1>exists or has recently existed within the territory under his

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<v Speaker 1>or her jurisdiction, shall take measures as may be necessary

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<v Speaker 1>to prevent the spread of the disease or occurrence of

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<v Speaker 1>additional cases, to minimize horrific death, and to chase disease.

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<v Speaker 1>The State of California had bestowed upon local public health

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<v Speaker 1>officers extraordinary legal powers. Charity accepted the job. She typed

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<v Speaker 1>out that one sentence of law and taped to the

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<v Speaker 1>wall of her new office. Once a t B quarantine room,

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<v Speaker 1>her office still had the original grates in the wall

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<v Speaker 1>used to get fresh sea air into the patient's lungs.

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<v Speaker 1>Sitting at her desk in Building four, she could hear

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<v Speaker 1>the screams of the psychiatric patients from across the courtyard

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<v Speaker 1>in Building three. In the halls, cabinets as old as

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<v Speaker 1>the building stored medical instruments that belonged in a museum.

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<v Speaker 1>The stairs led to a dank tunnel under the building

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<v Speaker 1>that went to the old morgue. It was her kind

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<v Speaker 1>of place. She had, in theory, incredible legal powers to

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<v Speaker 1>prevent disease. She soon realized how few people in practice

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<v Speaker 1>knew the law. Most to the citizens of Santa Barbara,

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<v Speaker 1>including nearly all of the public officials, didn't even really

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<v Speaker 1>understand what a public health officer was supposed to do.

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<v Speaker 1>The public health officer had somehow come to be a

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<v Speaker 1>recessive character. The other officials and the public expected her

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<v Speaker 1>to lie low until called upon, usually to make some

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<v Speaker 1>brief ceremonial appearance. The law's words felt strong, but their

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<v Speaker 1>spirit felt weak. By her second year on the job,

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<v Speaker 1>she found herself quoting the laws so often that she

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<v Speaker 1>asked her assistant to laminate a copy of that one

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<v Speaker 1>passage so that she might carry it with her in

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<v Speaker 1>her briefcase. I'm in a meeting, trying to explain to

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<v Speaker 1>people that I actually do have the authority to do

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<v Speaker 1>something I need to do. She said, I really tried

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<v Speaker 1>hard not to whip it out, but I pulled it

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<v Speaker 1>out once a week. By the time she got the

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<v Speaker 1>call about the young woman with tuberculosis in her brain,

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<v Speaker 1>she'd read that one sentence aloud more than just about

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<v Speaker 1>any other in her life. Lines weren't as easily performed

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<v Speaker 1>to say, the verses of the twenty third Psalm, which

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<v Speaker 1>she also loved, but she could bring them equally to life.

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<v Speaker 1>Each health officer, knowing or having reason to believe what

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<v Speaker 1>does that mean, should cry and point her finger in

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<v Speaker 1>the air. It means suspicion. You only need to suspect

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<v Speaker 1>that any case of the diseases made reportable by regulation

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<v Speaker 1>of the department, or any other contagious, infectious or communicable

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<v Speaker 1>disease exists or has recently existed within the territory under

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<v Speaker 1>his or her jurisdiction. Any disease should cry and then

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<v Speaker 1>parse the adjectives. Contagious isn't really a medical term, so

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<v Speaker 1>ignore that they just tossed in the kitchen sink there.

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<v Speaker 1>But you really need to understand the distinction between infectious

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<v Speaker 1>and communicable. All communicable diseases were infectious, but some infectious

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<v Speaker 1>diseases were not communicable. Communicable men a person could give

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<v Speaker 1>it to another person. You could get lyme disease, for instance,

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<v Speaker 1>but you couldn't give it to somebody else. Communicable diseases

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<v Speaker 1>were the diseases that created crises. In an adjective, she'd

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<v Speaker 1>found a vessel for her life's purpose. Shall take measures

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<v Speaker 1>as may be necessary to prevent the spread of the

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<v Speaker 1>disease or occurrence of additional cases, Shall, She'd exclaim, not

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<v Speaker 1>a may A shall not think about it, not consider it,

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<v Speaker 1>not maybe get around to it one day. If you

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<v Speaker 1>feel like it, it's your duty. If you suspect disease,

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<v Speaker 1>you can do whatever the hell you want. Now. She

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<v Speaker 1>had a corpse with TB in a hospital and hours

0:14:46.596 --> 0:14:49.596
<v Speaker 1>drive north. She'd ask them to move the body to

0:14:49.596 --> 0:14:52.956
<v Speaker 1>the Santa Barbara Coroner's office, then call the coroner to

0:14:53.036 --> 0:14:55.876
<v Speaker 1>ask him to send her a sample of the lung tissue.

0:14:56.396 --> 0:14:59.796
<v Speaker 1>That's when the real problem started. At first, he wouldn't

0:14:59.796 --> 0:15:03.956
<v Speaker 1>even come to the phone. Once she'd telephone him into submission,

0:15:03.956 --> 0:15:07.236
<v Speaker 1>and he finally picked up. He simply refused to do it.

0:15:08.236 --> 0:15:10.996
<v Speaker 1>Yet the law was the coroner was meant to do

0:15:11.116 --> 0:15:15.396
<v Speaker 1>with any corpse whatever she told him to do. Instead,

0:15:15.436 --> 0:15:19.676
<v Speaker 1>he explained to her why he wouldn't. To her growing incredulity,

0:15:19.716 --> 0:15:22.996
<v Speaker 1>this seventy something coroner, who had contracted with the county

0:15:22.996 --> 0:15:25.836
<v Speaker 1>to work part time and who clearly had only the

0:15:25.916 --> 0:15:29.276
<v Speaker 1>vaguest idea of what he was talking about, began to

0:15:29.396 --> 0:15:33.716
<v Speaker 1>lecture her about tuberculosis, saying that it was both dangerous

0:15:33.716 --> 0:15:37.356
<v Speaker 1>and unnecessary to extract the young woman's lung, citing some

0:15:37.436 --> 0:15:40.276
<v Speaker 1>study that purported to show that TB in a corpse

0:15:40.316 --> 0:15:44.796
<v Speaker 1>subjected to surgery could become aerosolized and infect the surgeon.

0:15:45.716 --> 0:15:48.636
<v Speaker 1>Charity Deane was at this point the chief health officer

0:15:48.676 --> 0:15:52.356
<v Speaker 1>of Santa Barbara County. She was the youngest chief health

0:15:52.396 --> 0:15:55.476
<v Speaker 1>officer in the history of California. She'd also spent three

0:15:55.556 --> 0:15:59.676
<v Speaker 1>years running the county's TB clinic. She was legally responsible

0:15:59.756 --> 0:16:03.076
<v Speaker 1>for every single case of TB in the county. Fancy

0:16:03.156 --> 0:16:06.716
<v Speaker 1>doctors who had supervised her residency now called her to

0:16:06.756 --> 0:16:10.476
<v Speaker 1>ask for advice about the disease, for crying out loud.

0:16:10.796 --> 0:16:13.916
<v Speaker 1>She was about to be named president of the Tuberculosis

0:16:13.956 --> 0:16:19.356
<v Speaker 1>Controllers Association of the entire State of California. She tried

0:16:19.396 --> 0:16:21.676
<v Speaker 1>to be civil with the old coroner, but it was hard.

0:16:22.076 --> 0:16:24.876
<v Speaker 1>I knew the study, it was a bullshit study, but

0:16:24.956 --> 0:16:27.316
<v Speaker 1>the douchebag said he wouldn't do it, would not even

0:16:27.356 --> 0:16:30.156
<v Speaker 1>allow someone else to come into his office and do it.

0:16:30.956 --> 0:16:34.236
<v Speaker 1>She hung up and called the sheriff. She explained the

0:16:34.276 --> 0:16:37.876
<v Speaker 1>situation sweetly and asked the sheriff to require the coroner

0:16:37.916 --> 0:16:40.236
<v Speaker 1>to cut the young woman open and extract her lung.

0:16:40.876 --> 0:16:43.476
<v Speaker 1>The sheriff didn't know the law either, it seemed as

0:16:43.476 --> 0:16:47.036
<v Speaker 1>he said he wouldn't interfere with the coroner's authority, at

0:16:47.076 --> 0:16:51.156
<v Speaker 1>which point Charity lost her patience. I couldn't believe he

0:16:51.196 --> 0:16:53.916
<v Speaker 1>wasn't doing what I told him to do. She wrote

0:16:53.916 --> 0:16:56.156
<v Speaker 1>out a legal order and delivered it to the sheriff

0:16:56.196 --> 0:16:58.996
<v Speaker 1>in person. Then I waited for the phones to blow up.

0:17:01.156 --> 0:17:04.756
<v Speaker 1>The sheriff couldn't simply ignore a legal order. He phoned

0:17:04.836 --> 0:17:07.756
<v Speaker 1>up the Chief council for the Board of Supervisors to

0:17:07.796 --> 0:17:10.796
<v Speaker 1>confirm his belief that a legal order issued by a

0:17:10.876 --> 0:17:15.396
<v Speaker 1>local public health officer carried no authority. Santa Barbara's Chief

0:17:15.396 --> 0:17:18.476
<v Speaker 1>Council looked into it, and to his surprise, discovered that

0:17:18.516 --> 0:17:22.556
<v Speaker 1>the sheriff was mistaken. The woman was right. The only

0:17:22.596 --> 0:17:25.876
<v Speaker 1>person whose authority trumped the health officers in cases involving

0:17:25.916 --> 0:17:30.156
<v Speaker 1>disease was the governor of California, and then only if

0:17:30.156 --> 0:17:37.436
<v Speaker 1>the governor had declared a state of emergency. With that,

0:17:37.836 --> 0:17:41.316
<v Speaker 1>Charity considered the matter settled, but the coroner's office called

0:17:41.316 --> 0:17:45.196
<v Speaker 1>her the next day to say that it wasn't. They said, okay,

0:17:45.316 --> 0:17:47.996
<v Speaker 1>we'll do it, she recalled, but we won't do it

0:17:48.036 --> 0:17:51.716
<v Speaker 1>inside the office because the building's old and lacks proper ventilation.

0:17:52.396 --> 0:17:57.356
<v Speaker 1>I said, okay, could you do it outside? They said, okay,

0:17:57.556 --> 0:18:00.636
<v Speaker 1>but only if you are here. Not for the first time,

0:18:00.676 --> 0:18:03.076
<v Speaker 1>she wondered what would happen in Santa Barbara County if

0:18:03.116 --> 0:18:06.916
<v Speaker 1>there was ever a serious outbreak of communicable disease. They

0:18:06.916 --> 0:18:09.716
<v Speaker 1>won't even do an autopsy because there are worried about

0:18:09.716 --> 0:18:12.756
<v Speaker 1>arioslised TV. She said, what the fuck are they going

0:18:12.796 --> 0:18:16.596
<v Speaker 1>to do if it's arioslis ebola. It didn't help that

0:18:16.676 --> 0:18:19.956
<v Speaker 1>this was all going down over Christmas. She just turned

0:18:19.996 --> 0:18:22.876
<v Speaker 1>thirty seven, was newly divorced from the rich surgeon, and

0:18:22.996 --> 0:18:25.916
<v Speaker 1>was a single mother to three young boys. As she

0:18:26.036 --> 0:18:28.396
<v Speaker 1>drove to the County Morgue on the day after Christmas,

0:18:28.996 --> 0:18:32.196
<v Speaker 1>she was unsure what awaited her. She sensed that the

0:18:32.276 --> 0:18:34.636
<v Speaker 1>coroner and the sheriff and maybe some other people had

0:18:34.636 --> 0:18:38.596
<v Speaker 1>grown irritated with her. Just how irritated became clear only

0:18:38.636 --> 0:18:42.596
<v Speaker 1>as she rolled into the parking lot beside the Coroner's office.

0:18:44.916 --> 0:18:48.476
<v Speaker 1>Seven people were waiting for her. Outside the morgue, all men,

0:18:49.236 --> 0:18:51.556
<v Speaker 1>the coroner, the sheriff, and a bunch of his deputies.

0:18:52.116 --> 0:18:54.916
<v Speaker 1>They had clearly come for the show. She'd driven straight

0:18:54.916 --> 0:18:56.716
<v Speaker 1>from cleaning up the mess under the tree, and so

0:18:56.756 --> 0:19:00.036
<v Speaker 1>she wasn't in her usual battle armor of Talbot's suit,

0:19:00.356 --> 0:19:04.356
<v Speaker 1>pencil skirt and grandma heels, just attacky Christmas sweater and

0:19:04.356 --> 0:19:08.036
<v Speaker 1>blue jeans. All the men wore full on hazmat suits.

0:19:08.596 --> 0:19:10.956
<v Speaker 1>They look like they're about to walk on the moon,

0:19:11.276 --> 0:19:15.956
<v Speaker 1>the whole team. You'd have thought this wuzzy bullet. The

0:19:16.036 --> 0:19:19.076
<v Speaker 1>morgue itself was even more appalling than the public health office.

0:19:19.876 --> 0:19:22.796
<v Speaker 1>Poking up from scrub oaks and dirt fields. It resembled

0:19:22.836 --> 0:19:25.236
<v Speaker 1>more of the bathrooms at a highway rest stop than

0:19:25.276 --> 0:19:28.436
<v Speaker 1>an official public office. Not for the first time, she

0:19:28.556 --> 0:19:31.556
<v Speaker 1>wondered where they put the bodies. If ever, there were

0:19:31.556 --> 0:19:35.156
<v Speaker 1>lots of gruesome deaths at once. At some remove on

0:19:35.156 --> 0:19:37.516
<v Speaker 1>a picnic table lay a body bag with the young

0:19:37.556 --> 0:19:41.796
<v Speaker 1>woman inside. The coroner was now just angry. He explained

0:19:41.796 --> 0:19:45.036
<v Speaker 1>all over again that the entire operation was unsafe and

0:19:45.076 --> 0:19:47.716
<v Speaker 1>that he was not going to risk opening up the

0:19:47.836 --> 0:19:52.316
<v Speaker 1>body indoors. He sighted the bullshit paper again, this time

0:19:52.356 --> 0:19:55.476
<v Speaker 1>to explain why he hadn't even brought his bonesaw with him,

0:19:55.836 --> 0:19:59.236
<v Speaker 1>as the one known case of a surgeon becoming infected

0:19:59.236 --> 0:20:02.236
<v Speaker 1>with TB by a corpse had involved a bone saw.

0:20:02.876 --> 0:20:05.396
<v Speaker 1>Instead of the bone saw, he had brought along a

0:20:05.436 --> 0:20:11.316
<v Speaker 1>pair of garden shears. Now he offered to her garden shears.

0:20:12.516 --> 0:20:15.836
<v Speaker 1>They were brand new in Gleaming, with the word Ace

0:20:16.356 --> 0:20:19.996
<v Speaker 1>on the red handles for the hardware store. If the

0:20:19.996 --> 0:20:22.396
<v Speaker 1>new chief health officer wanted to cut open the young

0:20:22.436 --> 0:20:25.276
<v Speaker 1>woman and remove a piece of her lung, she'd need

0:20:25.276 --> 0:20:29.356
<v Speaker 1>to do it herself with garden shears. I had thought

0:20:29.356 --> 0:20:32.036
<v Speaker 1>I was just there to watch, said Charity, and he

0:20:32.196 --> 0:20:35.876
<v Speaker 1>turned it into a game of chicken. Medicine had always

0:20:35.876 --> 0:20:39.036
<v Speaker 1>felt to her a man's world, especially in the places

0:20:39.156 --> 0:20:43.156
<v Speaker 1>like here where it touched government. It was then charity.

0:20:43.196 --> 0:20:47.316
<v Speaker 1>Deane realized, the real problem is that this man is frightened.

0:20:47.956 --> 0:20:50.756
<v Speaker 1>She'd been around terrifying diseases most of her adult life,

0:20:51.036 --> 0:20:53.836
<v Speaker 1>and it made a pact with herself not to fear them.

0:20:54.556 --> 0:20:56.836
<v Speaker 1>If you're a truck driver, you know you're going to

0:20:56.916 --> 0:21:00.196
<v Speaker 1>get into an accident sooner or later, so you just

0:21:00.356 --> 0:21:02.676
<v Speaker 1>learn what to do if you are in an accident.

0:21:02.956 --> 0:21:05.996
<v Speaker 1>She said. That's how you get over the fear. You

0:21:06.076 --> 0:21:09.396
<v Speaker 1>just accept that you'll get the disease one day. Men

0:21:09.436 --> 0:21:12.676
<v Speaker 1>weren't so accepting. She'd noticed, especially the big and supposedly

0:21:12.716 --> 0:21:15.916
<v Speaker 1>brave ones. As a medical student, she'd seen the fear

0:21:16.076 --> 0:21:18.116
<v Speaker 1>in the eyes of the New Orleans cops in the

0:21:18.156 --> 0:21:21.516
<v Speaker 1>trauma center. They'd haul in some guy with a gunshot wound,

0:21:21.676 --> 0:21:24.316
<v Speaker 1>but when they found out he had HEPSI or HIV,

0:21:24.996 --> 0:21:27.596
<v Speaker 1>they'd squeal and go take a shower in chlorox from

0:21:27.636 --> 0:21:31.556
<v Speaker 1>head to toe. Over and again. She's seen mesomorphs with

0:21:31.596 --> 0:21:34.116
<v Speaker 1>crew cuts who'd happily run into a burning building to

0:21:34.116 --> 0:21:37.556
<v Speaker 1>save a dog turn uncertain and uneasy in the presence

0:21:37.596 --> 0:21:41.756
<v Speaker 1>of disease. Airborne diseases in particular seemed to spook them.

0:21:42.076 --> 0:21:44.756
<v Speaker 1>That was the number one reason I could not get

0:21:44.836 --> 0:21:47.996
<v Speaker 1>t be patients arrested. She said, the police would turn

0:21:48.036 --> 0:21:50.956
<v Speaker 1>into these squeamish little girls. They'd sit in the car

0:21:51.076 --> 0:21:54.636
<v Speaker 1>and let a nurse go get them. Charity was not

0:21:54.716 --> 0:21:58.916
<v Speaker 1>without her own fears, both real and imagined. The walls

0:21:58.956 --> 0:22:01.636
<v Speaker 1>of her office and home bedroom were plastered with post

0:22:01.676 --> 0:22:06.356
<v Speaker 1>it notes, there is no shortcut to courage. Courage is

0:22:06.396 --> 0:22:09.396
<v Speaker 1>a muscle memory. The tallest oak in the forest was

0:22:09.436 --> 0:22:12.876
<v Speaker 1>once just a little nut that held its ground. Like

0:22:13.036 --> 0:22:16.916
<v Speaker 1>most everyone else, she needed reminding. Unlike most everyone else.

0:22:17.396 --> 0:22:23.396
<v Speaker 1>She reminded herself constantly. Her realization that the men outside

0:22:23.436 --> 0:22:25.556
<v Speaker 1>the coroner's office were afraid in a way that she

0:22:25.676 --> 0:22:29.076
<v Speaker 1>was not led to a thought, they don't think I'm

0:22:29.076 --> 0:22:32.756
<v Speaker 1>going to go through with this, Then another, they don't

0:22:32.796 --> 0:22:35.076
<v Speaker 1>think I will do it because I don't look like

0:22:35.156 --> 0:22:38.356
<v Speaker 1>a person who would do it. Even in heel. She

0:22:38.476 --> 0:22:41.276
<v Speaker 1>was only five foot six and slender. She had mixed

0:22:41.316 --> 0:22:43.636
<v Speaker 1>feelings about her own looks, but men did not appear

0:22:43.676 --> 0:22:47.356
<v Speaker 1>to share them. She'd gotten used to cat calls. She

0:22:47.516 --> 0:22:50.916
<v Speaker 1>created a rule for herself when entering a meeting with

0:22:50.956 --> 0:22:54.556
<v Speaker 1>a certain kind of mail, allow a thirty second recovery

0:22:54.596 --> 0:22:58.596
<v Speaker 1>period before attempting to convey information upon which that mail

0:22:58.756 --> 0:23:02.836
<v Speaker 1>might need to act. Men judge her by appearance and

0:23:02.916 --> 0:23:07.156
<v Speaker 1>were badly deceived. The inside doesn't match the outside, she

0:23:07.316 --> 0:23:10.716
<v Speaker 1>sometimes said of herself. She unzipped the body bag and

0:23:10.796 --> 0:23:14.036
<v Speaker 1>looked at the corpse. A bone saw would have allowed

0:23:14.036 --> 0:23:15.676
<v Speaker 1>her to cut right down the middle of the young

0:23:15.716 --> 0:23:18.716
<v Speaker 1>woman's sternam, but with garden shears, she'd have to snap

0:23:18.716 --> 0:23:21.796
<v Speaker 1>the ribs at the ends. She felt for the edge

0:23:21.796 --> 0:23:26.076
<v Speaker 1>of the first rib snip. It was a sharp, thin sound,

0:23:26.356 --> 0:23:31.316
<v Speaker 1>like a crab shell cracking snip. As she cut, she

0:23:31.436 --> 0:23:36.236
<v Speaker 1>sensed the eyes inside the hazmat suits looking away. They

0:23:36.236 --> 0:23:38.836
<v Speaker 1>had left the young woman's face uncovered. That was the

0:23:38.876 --> 0:23:42.636
<v Speaker 1>most unsettling part. Normally, a surgeon saw only the tiny

0:23:42.676 --> 0:23:46.596
<v Speaker 1>patch of flesh upon which she operated. The sight of

0:23:46.636 --> 0:23:51.436
<v Speaker 1>the young woman's face made the operation feel personal, disturbing.

0:23:52.396 --> 0:23:55.956
<v Speaker 1>She felt woozy and nauseous. I was just saying over

0:23:55.996 --> 0:23:59.836
<v Speaker 1>and over in my head, don't faint, don't faint. And

0:24:00.036 --> 0:24:03.276
<v Speaker 1>I was mad. This was such disrespect for her and

0:24:03.356 --> 0:24:06.196
<v Speaker 1>for her family. But they were like, you want to

0:24:06.236 --> 0:24:11.276
<v Speaker 1>see it, you get to do it. Snip. The crab

0:24:11.316 --> 0:24:14.876
<v Speaker 1>shell finally cracked. She tossed the garden shears to one

0:24:14.876 --> 0:24:17.316
<v Speaker 1>side of the body and pulled apart the woman's ribs.

0:24:18.116 --> 0:24:21.076
<v Speaker 1>At that moment, I had this feeling, this feeling of

0:24:21.116 --> 0:24:25.716
<v Speaker 1>such grief for her husband. She didn't show any feeling

0:24:25.716 --> 0:24:27.876
<v Speaker 1>at all to the men, though she didn't want to

0:24:27.876 --> 0:24:31.276
<v Speaker 1>give the douchebag the satisfaction. She needed a chunk of

0:24:31.356 --> 0:24:33.596
<v Speaker 1>the woman's lung tissue to take back to Manny in

0:24:33.636 --> 0:24:36.636
<v Speaker 1>the lab for testing. But as she reached into the

0:24:36.636 --> 0:24:40.156
<v Speaker 1>woman with the garden shears, the coroner reached in too.

0:24:41.036 --> 0:24:45.236
<v Speaker 1>He wanted to help. Should we look in her belly,

0:24:45.356 --> 0:24:48.636
<v Speaker 1>he asked gently, Right, thought, Charity. If it was in

0:24:48.716 --> 0:24:51.076
<v Speaker 1>her belly, then it was in her blood. And if

0:24:51.116 --> 0:24:53.836
<v Speaker 1>it was in her blood, it was probably on her

0:24:53.916 --> 0:24:59.196
<v Speaker 1>lung She felt around for signs of tuberculosis. Her internal

0:24:59.276 --> 0:25:03.356
<v Speaker 1>organs were perfect, lovely. If the lungs were speckled and bumpy,

0:25:03.556 --> 0:25:08.716
<v Speaker 1>I would know, and they weren't. Her hands, sensed with

0:25:08.796 --> 0:25:12.156
<v Speaker 1>the would later find the TV hadn't ever left the brain.

0:25:13.556 --> 0:25:15.956
<v Speaker 1>In the end, the coroner saved her the trouble of

0:25:15.996 --> 0:25:17.676
<v Speaker 1>cutting out a piece of the lung with the garden

0:25:17.716 --> 0:25:22.196
<v Speaker 1>shears by showing her how to release the lungs. They

0:25:22.236 --> 0:25:25.236
<v Speaker 1>did it together. It was as if her nerve had

0:25:25.316 --> 0:25:29.356
<v Speaker 1>changed his view of the situation. Now she held the

0:25:29.396 --> 0:25:33.476
<v Speaker 1>young woman's lungs in her hands. This jello outside the

0:25:33.556 --> 0:25:36.876
<v Speaker 1>human body, lung tissue didn't hold its form, and now

0:25:36.916 --> 0:25:39.516
<v Speaker 1>she could see just how sure the coroner had been

0:25:39.596 --> 0:25:42.436
<v Speaker 1>that none of this would ever happen. He had nowhere

0:25:42.476 --> 0:25:45.596
<v Speaker 1>to put them. The only container in sight was an

0:25:45.636 --> 0:25:49.596
<v Speaker 1>orange plastic bucket from home depot. She grabbed the woman's

0:25:49.636 --> 0:25:52.036
<v Speaker 1>lungs and placed them into it, then tossed the bucket

0:25:52.076 --> 0:26:01.076
<v Speaker 1>into the car and drove away to the men she

0:26:01.156 --> 0:26:05.196
<v Speaker 1>left behind. The entire scene would remain a vivid memory

0:26:05.356 --> 0:26:07.956
<v Speaker 1>to her. It was almost just another day in the

0:26:07.956 --> 0:26:11.636
<v Speaker 1>life of the local health officer. They had no idea

0:26:11.636 --> 0:26:13.956
<v Speaker 1>of the things she had done or what she was

0:26:14.036 --> 0:26:18.756
<v Speaker 1>capable of. The coroner obviously hadn't even considered the possibility

0:26:18.756 --> 0:26:21.396
<v Speaker 1>that she was a trained surgeon. Men like that always

0:26:21.436 --> 0:26:24.836
<v Speaker 1>underestimate me, she said. They think my spirit animal is

0:26:24.836 --> 0:26:32.516
<v Speaker 1>a bunny, and it's a fucking dragon. You've been listening

0:26:32.516 --> 0:26:35.836
<v Speaker 1>to chapter one of Michael Lewis's new book, The Premonition,

0:26:38.156 --> 0:26:41.196
<v Speaker 1>But we have more of Michael still to come. Stay

0:26:41.196 --> 0:26:44.596
<v Speaker 1>with us after the break for an exclusive author interview.

0:26:56.596 --> 0:26:59.636
<v Speaker 1>We're back with one more extra for you ATR listeners.

0:26:59.916 --> 0:27:03.316
<v Speaker 1>In a very COVID safe interview, the author Michael Lewis

0:27:03.676 --> 0:27:06.436
<v Speaker 1>agreed to talk about his new book The Premonition with

0:27:07.356 --> 0:27:15.556
<v Speaker 1>the author Michael Lewis. Here's their hard hitting conversation. Good

0:27:15.596 --> 0:27:20.316
<v Speaker 1>to see you, Michael. It's been too long. So look,

0:27:20.396 --> 0:27:21.876
<v Speaker 1>I like dudes to ask you the kind of questions

0:27:21.876 --> 0:27:25.356
<v Speaker 1>that you don't get asked that often. You get asked

0:27:25.596 --> 0:27:27.396
<v Speaker 1>all the same questions on a book tour, and you

0:27:27.396 --> 0:27:30.636
<v Speaker 1>get sick of answering them my bed and so first

0:27:30.796 --> 0:27:34.236
<v Speaker 1>kind of insulting. We know from your biography that you

0:27:34.356 --> 0:27:38.516
<v Speaker 1>got a d in biology your sophomore year in high school,

0:27:38.916 --> 0:27:42.756
<v Speaker 1>and that you wiggle through the science requirement college by

0:27:42.796 --> 0:27:45.676
<v Speaker 1>taking a course called Physics for Poets, and you were

0:27:45.716 --> 0:27:48.076
<v Speaker 1>so insecure about it that you took it past fail

0:27:48.516 --> 0:27:52.676
<v Speaker 1>and you flunked. So you have established that you aren't

0:27:52.716 --> 0:27:57.516
<v Speaker 1>the go to guy for matters of science. What business

0:27:57.556 --> 0:28:01.516
<v Speaker 1>do you think you have writing a book about a virus?

0:28:03.356 --> 0:28:04.916
<v Speaker 1>You don't know me as well as you think you

0:28:04.956 --> 0:28:08.676
<v Speaker 1>know me. All right, Yes, I did poorly in high school.

0:28:09.116 --> 0:28:12.396
<v Speaker 1>Alogy and I didn't do well in physics and college,

0:28:13.116 --> 0:28:15.956
<v Speaker 1>but I actually got my start as a writer on

0:28:15.996 --> 0:28:19.076
<v Speaker 1>the science pages of The Economist. It's true that I'm

0:28:19.156 --> 0:28:21.756
<v Speaker 1>nobody's idea of a scientist. No one would hire me

0:28:21.836 --> 0:28:25.556
<v Speaker 1>in their lab. But there's a funny kind of advantage

0:28:25.876 --> 0:28:30.636
<v Speaker 1>to having no clue about the subject when you enter it,

0:28:30.716 --> 0:28:33.396
<v Speaker 1>because you're in the state of the mind of many readers.

0:28:33.676 --> 0:28:36.436
<v Speaker 1>And I think my problem with science back in high

0:28:36.436 --> 0:28:39.596
<v Speaker 1>school and even in college, it wasn't that I couldn't

0:28:39.636 --> 0:28:42.396
<v Speaker 1>grasp it. It was just it was presented to me

0:28:42.436 --> 0:28:45.716
<v Speaker 1>in the most mind numbingly boring way as kind of

0:28:45.716 --> 0:28:48.076
<v Speaker 1>a fat, all complete rather than a search or request

0:28:48.236 --> 0:28:53.196
<v Speaker 1>or a tool for curiosity. So in my defense, my

0:28:53.236 --> 0:28:57.556
<v Speaker 1>attitudes towards science have changed, all right, next question. You

0:28:57.596 --> 0:29:00.036
<v Speaker 1>wrote a book called Fifth Risk, and it seemed to

0:29:00.036 --> 0:29:02.636
<v Speaker 1>be all about how horrible Donald Trump was and that

0:29:02.716 --> 0:29:04.956
<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump was going to kill everybody because he wasn't

0:29:04.956 --> 0:29:07.396
<v Speaker 1>managing the government properly, and so on and so forth.

0:29:08.076 --> 0:29:12.116
<v Speaker 1>And in this book Trump hardly appears. He's kind of

0:29:12.116 --> 0:29:15.716
<v Speaker 1>a shadowy presence, but it isn't certainly not about Donald Trump.

0:29:15.996 --> 0:29:17.996
<v Speaker 1>And in this other book you wrote the fifth risk.

0:29:18.476 --> 0:29:21.116
<v Speaker 1>You were holding out all these public servants as heroes,

0:29:21.196 --> 0:29:23.796
<v Speaker 1>and in this book there's some ones who are clearly

0:29:23.876 --> 0:29:26.796
<v Speaker 1>not heroes, like they're clearly making a hash of things.

0:29:26.836 --> 0:29:30.076
<v Speaker 1>In particular, people at the CDC, Could you reconcile all

0:29:30.116 --> 0:29:33.156
<v Speaker 1>this for us so we can at least delude ourselves

0:29:33.156 --> 0:29:37.036
<v Speaker 1>that there's some coherence to your work. Well, thanks for

0:29:37.036 --> 0:29:39.836
<v Speaker 1>putting it that way. I'd say two things. One is

0:29:39.956 --> 0:29:44.516
<v Speaker 1>that as I dug into the material that became the premonition,

0:29:45.276 --> 0:29:48.276
<v Speaker 1>it became really clear to me that the causes of

0:29:48.396 --> 0:29:53.036
<v Speaker 1>our horrible response to the pandemic ran much deeper than

0:29:53.156 --> 0:29:57.916
<v Speaker 1>just one president. I didn't think of the government employees

0:29:58.076 --> 0:30:03.996
<v Speaker 1>who performed badly in the pandemic as like villains. I

0:30:04.076 --> 0:30:06.676
<v Speaker 1>thought of them as people who were trapped in a

0:30:06.716 --> 0:30:11.636
<v Speaker 1>horrible system, and that the villain and in in this story

0:30:11.716 --> 0:30:14.956
<v Speaker 1>is really a broken system, and that the heroes in

0:30:14.956 --> 0:30:17.436
<v Speaker 1>this story, the people, were inside the system kind of

0:30:17.476 --> 0:30:19.756
<v Speaker 1>trying to fight the system. I don't think the two

0:30:19.796 --> 0:30:23.356
<v Speaker 1>things contradict each other in the way you described. I

0:30:23.356 --> 0:30:27.116
<v Speaker 1>think your question is a little stupid. All right, that's

0:30:27.156 --> 0:30:29.876
<v Speaker 1>one way to charm an interviewer. Let's see what else

0:30:29.916 --> 0:30:33.716
<v Speaker 1>I have here for you? What do you expect to

0:30:33.876 --> 0:30:38.916
<v Speaker 1>be the biggest mistake that readers meg about the story

0:30:38.956 --> 0:30:41.476
<v Speaker 1>you were trying to tell, Like, what do you expect

0:30:41.556 --> 0:30:44.316
<v Speaker 1>is going to happen after the book comes out where

0:30:44.316 --> 0:30:46.556
<v Speaker 1>you're going to say, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa. That wasn't

0:30:46.636 --> 0:30:50.556
<v Speaker 1>the point. You're missing the point. Well, that's funny you

0:30:50.596 --> 0:30:53.796
<v Speaker 1>asked that because I've been thinking about that, and I've

0:30:53.836 --> 0:30:57.876
<v Speaker 1>been thinking about it because after the big short was published.

0:30:57.996 --> 0:30:59.396
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I can't tell you how many calls I

0:30:59.436 --> 0:31:01.916
<v Speaker 1>had from like people on Capitol Hill who wanted me

0:31:01.916 --> 0:31:04.676
<v Speaker 1>to come testify or will you come speak to the

0:31:04.716 --> 0:31:08.036
<v Speaker 1>Democratic Caucus or the Republican Caucus. But what the book

0:31:08.116 --> 0:31:10.716
<v Speaker 1>was trying to say is it's these people I wrote about.

0:31:10.956 --> 0:31:13.796
<v Speaker 1>I found the people who can explain the thing that

0:31:13.916 --> 0:31:17.876
<v Speaker 1>was my only job. I was their stenographer. And that's

0:31:17.876 --> 0:31:20.356
<v Speaker 1>what's happened again. And I know what's going to happen

0:31:20.676 --> 0:31:22.236
<v Speaker 1>is that I'm going to get calls from like a

0:31:22.316 --> 0:31:25.116
<v Speaker 1>senator saying, Wow, could you talk to me about what

0:31:25.356 --> 0:31:26.916
<v Speaker 1>actually happened and what we need to do to I

0:31:26.956 --> 0:31:30.236
<v Speaker 1>don't know, change disease control in the United States, And

0:31:30.316 --> 0:31:32.156
<v Speaker 1>I'll say to them. You know, I know it's in

0:31:32.196 --> 0:31:34.476
<v Speaker 1>the book, and I got a d in biology my

0:31:34.556 --> 0:31:37.276
<v Speaker 1>sophomore year in high school. Why you asking me call

0:31:37.356 --> 0:31:41.236
<v Speaker 1>those people? That's what I'll say. It's nice to see

0:31:41.276 --> 0:31:43.876
<v Speaker 1>you hid and rare note of modesty and humility in

0:31:43.956 --> 0:31:47.156
<v Speaker 1>that answer to the question. There's this kind of a

0:31:47.196 --> 0:31:50.436
<v Speaker 1>false modesty, but I guess false modesty is better than

0:31:50.436 --> 0:31:53.396
<v Speaker 1>no modesty at all. Why don't we end with this?

0:31:54.076 --> 0:31:56.276
<v Speaker 1>I'm actually not all that curious about this, but the

0:31:56.276 --> 0:31:59.316
<v Speaker 1>producers of Against the Rules asked me to ask you

0:31:59.356 --> 0:32:02.716
<v Speaker 1>this question, and it's how does your book connect with

0:32:02.796 --> 0:32:05.916
<v Speaker 1>the next season of Against the Rules? I am so

0:32:05.996 --> 0:32:08.516
<v Speaker 1>glad you asked that. Finally asked me something as useful.

0:32:09.116 --> 0:32:12.076
<v Speaker 1>There is a connection, a very deep connection. One of

0:32:12.076 --> 0:32:15.196
<v Speaker 1>the things that became very clear when I was working

0:32:15.276 --> 0:32:18.156
<v Speaker 1>on The Premonition was that the United States had an

0:32:18.196 --> 0:32:21.716
<v Speaker 1>expert problem. So like newspaper reporters, when they needed to

0:32:21.756 --> 0:32:25.396
<v Speaker 1>know something about epidemiology, we call a virologist and they

0:32:25.436 --> 0:32:27.076
<v Speaker 1>treat them all the same. And if they need to

0:32:27.116 --> 0:32:29.676
<v Speaker 1>know something about virology, they call the epidemiologists, or they

0:32:29.716 --> 0:32:32.076
<v Speaker 1>just be these talking heads on TV who happened to

0:32:32.116 --> 0:32:35.276
<v Speaker 1>have gotten somewhere near someone who knew something. We're presenting

0:32:35.316 --> 0:32:39.036
<v Speaker 1>themselves as pandemic experts. At least part of the story

0:32:39.036 --> 0:32:43.156
<v Speaker 1>in The Premonition is a story about experts that is

0:32:43.196 --> 0:32:45.876
<v Speaker 1>not fully explored in the book, because the book really

0:32:45.916 --> 0:32:49.076
<v Speaker 1>is a story, but that we will explore in the

0:32:49.076 --> 0:32:52.916
<v Speaker 1>next season of Against the Rules. Thank you for your time, Michael,

0:32:53.316 --> 0:32:56.956
<v Speaker 1>It's been my pleasure. If it's okay with you, I'm

0:32:56.996 --> 0:33:00.716
<v Speaker 1>going to read the credits now. Against the Rules is

0:33:00.756 --> 0:33:04.756
<v Speaker 1>written and hosted by me Michael Lewis and produced by

0:33:04.836 --> 0:33:09.476
<v Speaker 1>Katherine Girardo and Lydia Gencott, edited by Julia Barton and

0:33:09.596 --> 0:33:14.756
<v Speaker 1>Audrey Dilling, with music by Stellwagen Sinfonett. Mia Lobell is

0:33:14.756 --> 0:33:18.956
<v Speaker 1>our executive producer. Thanks also to Jacob Weisberg, Heather Fain,

0:33:19.316 --> 0:33:24.516
<v Speaker 1>John Snars, Carli Miliori, Christina Sullivan, Eric Sandler, Maggie Taylor,

0:33:24.796 --> 0:33:31.036
<v Speaker 1>Nicole Morano, Emily Rosnick, Maya Kaney, Jason Gambrel, Kadija Holland,

0:33:31.396 --> 0:33:34.716
<v Speaker 1>and special thanks to Charity Deane for lending her story

0:33:34.796 --> 0:33:37.996
<v Speaker 1>and her voice to the Premonition. Against the Rules is

0:33:37.996 --> 0:33:41.716
<v Speaker 1>a production of Pushkin Industries. Sign up for Pushkin's newsletter

0:33:41.716 --> 0:33:45.676
<v Speaker 1>at Pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcast listen

0:33:45.676 --> 0:33:49.316
<v Speaker 1>on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

0:33:49.316 --> 0:33:58.916
<v Speaker 1>your podcasts. Against the Rules, we'll be back with our

0:33:58.996 --> 0:34:03.076
<v Speaker 1>new season this fall. The Premonition is out now. You'll

0:34:03.076 --> 0:34:04.756
<v Speaker 1>find it wherever books are sold.