1 00:00:15,276 --> 00:00:26,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey against the rules. Listeners, this is Catherine Gerardo. 2 00:00:26,996 --> 00:00:29,276 Speaker 1: I'm one of the producers on the show. We're hard 3 00:00:29,276 --> 00:00:34,316 Speaker 1: at work on season three, which will come out this fall. Meanwhile, 4 00:00:34,716 --> 00:00:37,316 Speaker 1: like most of us, our host Michael Lewis, spent a 5 00:00:37,356 --> 00:00:40,396 Speaker 1: lot of the last year cowering in his home, trying 6 00:00:40,396 --> 00:00:43,236 Speaker 1: to find solace in Netflix and take out from his 7 00:00:43,316 --> 00:00:47,116 Speaker 1: local deli. But unlike most of us, he also wrote 8 00:00:47,116 --> 00:00:50,236 Speaker 1: a book during the pandemic. He wanted to report on 9 00:00:50,276 --> 00:00:52,956 Speaker 1: people who saw it coming and did their best to 10 00:00:53,076 --> 00:00:58,756 Speaker 1: stop it. The book is called The Premonition, and we 11 00:00:58,876 --> 00:01:00,956 Speaker 1: got him to read a chapter of it just for 12 00:01:01,036 --> 00:01:06,876 Speaker 1: you a heads up. It contained some salty language and 13 00:01:06,956 --> 00:01:18,476 Speaker 1: a somewhat graphic medical see Anyway, here's Michael The Premonition, 14 00:01:19,156 --> 00:01:24,036 Speaker 1: Chapter one Dragon. By the time Charity heard about the 15 00:01:24,076 --> 00:01:26,716 Speaker 1: young woman, it was too late to help. The woman 16 00:01:26,796 --> 00:01:29,356 Speaker 1: was on life support in the Santa Barbara County Hospital. 17 00:01:29,996 --> 00:01:34,716 Speaker 1: The doctors had just found tuberculosis in her brain. Before 18 00:01:34,716 --> 00:01:37,796 Speaker 1: they could find anything more, she was dead and that 19 00:01:38,116 --> 00:01:41,596 Speaker 1: was just the start of the problem. Doctor Charity Deane 20 00:01:41,636 --> 00:01:45,316 Speaker 1: was the newly appointed chief Health Officer for Santa Barbara County. 21 00:01:46,236 --> 00:01:48,876 Speaker 1: A health officer was a stopper of things, and the 22 00:01:48,916 --> 00:01:51,876 Speaker 1: most important thing Charity was meant to stop, in her view, 23 00:01:52,316 --> 00:01:56,276 Speaker 1: was people from giving diseases to their fellow citizens. Michael 24 00:01:56,396 --> 00:02:00,316 Speaker 1: Bacterium tuberculosis moves through droplets in the breath of the 25 00:02:00,356 --> 00:02:03,156 Speaker 1: infected person and is able to hang in the air 26 00:02:03,236 --> 00:02:06,756 Speaker 1: for impressive stretches. The vast majority of the risk is 27 00:02:06,756 --> 00:02:09,676 Speaker 1: in the first hour, but it may be there for two, 28 00:02:09,916 --> 00:02:13,316 Speaker 1: three or four hours, said Charity. No one actually knows. 29 00:02:14,436 --> 00:02:18,836 Speaker 1: That's Charity re enacting herself. There were other things about 30 00:02:18,876 --> 00:02:22,916 Speaker 1: TB that no one knew. Some TB patients infected no one, 31 00:02:23,356 --> 00:02:27,596 Speaker 1: and others infected huge numbers. No one knew why. No 32 00:02:27,636 --> 00:02:30,236 Speaker 1: one knew why some people were super spreaders was at 33 00:02:30,276 --> 00:02:34,636 Speaker 1: their behavior, their biology, the biology of their particular case 34 00:02:34,716 --> 00:02:39,676 Speaker 1: of TB. The disease had been around basically forever. At 35 00:02:39,676 --> 00:02:42,236 Speaker 1: the turn of the twentieth century, it was the leading 36 00:02:42,316 --> 00:02:45,876 Speaker 1: killer of human beings and it remains in many ways 37 00:02:46,276 --> 00:02:51,196 Speaker 1: a mystery. It's the most intriguing infectious disease, said Charity. 38 00:02:51,396 --> 00:02:54,956 Speaker 1: My favorite infectious disease. It can do anything or be 39 00:02:55,036 --> 00:02:58,396 Speaker 1: anywhere in the body. We've had TB of the uterus, 40 00:02:58,396 --> 00:03:02,716 Speaker 1: of the eye, of the finger. Once in Niesare, she 41 00:03:02,796 --> 00:03:05,036 Speaker 1: treated a man whose TB had started in his lungs, 42 00:03:05,556 --> 00:03:08,836 Speaker 1: wormed its way through his chest wall, and finally oozed 43 00:03:08,876 --> 00:03:12,516 Speaker 1: in hus down the side of its torso. To move 44 00:03:12,596 --> 00:03:16,356 Speaker 1: from one person to another, however, TB needed to invade 45 00:03:16,356 --> 00:03:19,396 Speaker 1: the lungs. The young woman in the Santa Barbara County 46 00:03:19,436 --> 00:03:22,796 Speaker 1: Hospital had been diagnosed with tuberculosis of the brain, and 47 00:03:22,916 --> 00:03:26,036 Speaker 1: had the bacteria confined itself to her brain, it would 48 00:03:26,076 --> 00:03:28,756 Speaker 1: have threatened no one. If it had found its way 49 00:03:28,756 --> 00:03:32,396 Speaker 1: into her lungs, it had the power to kill, and 50 00:03:32,476 --> 00:03:34,436 Speaker 1: thirty percent of the people who had TB in their 51 00:03:34,436 --> 00:03:39,236 Speaker 1: brain had it also in their lungs. Santa Barbara County 52 00:03:39,236 --> 00:03:42,916 Speaker 1: had become almost famous, at least in disease control circles, 53 00:03:43,156 --> 00:03:47,076 Speaker 1: for both the number and sheer terror of its tuberculosis cases. 54 00:03:47,836 --> 00:03:50,476 Speaker 1: When people heard this, they didn't quite believe it. At 55 00:03:50,516 --> 00:03:53,556 Speaker 1: first glance. The county was a tranquil eden of beige 56 00:03:53,636 --> 00:03:58,356 Speaker 1: boulders and golden grass and California oaks. Oprah lived there, 57 00:03:58,996 --> 00:04:02,916 Speaker 1: Ellen lived there. The great estates in the foothills overlooking 58 00:04:02,956 --> 00:04:05,516 Speaker 1: the sea blended into one another to form a single 59 00:04:05,596 --> 00:04:12,156 Speaker 1: tapestry of American affluence. Even the ocean felt private. But 60 00:04:12,276 --> 00:04:15,756 Speaker 1: Santa Barbara County was both bigger and more complicated than 61 00:04:15,796 --> 00:04:19,156 Speaker 1: it seemed. It had the highest rate of child poverty 62 00:04:19,156 --> 00:04:22,796 Speaker 1: in the state. It sheltered maybe fifty thousand non citizens 63 00:04:22,796 --> 00:04:26,236 Speaker 1: in abject squalor plus. All hell could break loose at 64 00:04:26,236 --> 00:04:30,636 Speaker 1: any time. Wildfires and mudslides and oil spills and mass 65 00:04:30,676 --> 00:04:35,316 Speaker 1: shootings scratched the surface of paradise, and you were plunged 66 00:04:35,796 --> 00:04:39,956 Speaker 1: into the book of job. The chief health officer of 67 00:04:39,996 --> 00:04:43,116 Speaker 1: Santa Barbara County never knew exactly where, or when or 68 00:04:43,196 --> 00:04:47,276 Speaker 1: how the next TB outbreak might occur. The young woman 69 00:04:47,276 --> 00:04:49,996 Speaker 1: who just died in the county hospital illustrated the point. 70 00:04:50,916 --> 00:04:54,556 Speaker 1: No one had any idea she even had tuberculosis until 71 00:04:54,596 --> 00:04:58,596 Speaker 1: she was on her deathbed. She'd had a husband and children, 72 00:04:59,116 --> 00:05:02,476 Speaker 1: She'd lived in a crowded neighborhood. She'd worked inside a 73 00:05:02,516 --> 00:05:07,156 Speaker 1: massive open plan office alongside three hundred other people. If 74 00:05:07,156 --> 00:05:10,716 Speaker 1: the TB had reached her lungs, anyone should been anywhere 75 00:05:10,796 --> 00:05:14,596 Speaker 1: near was now in mortal danger. That was Charity Deane's 76 00:05:14,636 --> 00:05:17,916 Speaker 1: immediate problem. To figure out who, if any one, might 77 00:05:17,956 --> 00:05:21,276 Speaker 1: be infected. She'd need to test tissue from the woman's lung. 78 00:05:21,996 --> 00:05:24,876 Speaker 1: If the test came out positive, she need to call 79 00:05:24,956 --> 00:05:28,076 Speaker 1: the company that employed the young woman and shut it 80 00:05:28,116 --> 00:05:31,276 Speaker 1: down for long enough to test all three hundred of 81 00:05:31,276 --> 00:05:35,956 Speaker 1: its employees, along with anyone they might have infected, along 82 00:05:35,996 --> 00:05:39,156 Speaker 1: with anyone they might have infected, and on and on. 83 00:05:40,236 --> 00:05:42,836 Speaker 1: In short, she might need to alert and alarm a 84 00:05:42,876 --> 00:05:46,476 Speaker 1: big chunk of Santa Barbara County. But who was she? 85 00:05:47,836 --> 00:05:51,796 Speaker 1: A nobody. Hardly any one in Santa Barbara County knew 86 00:05:51,796 --> 00:05:54,756 Speaker 1: who she was or what she did all day She 87 00:05:54,836 --> 00:05:59,596 Speaker 1: was invisible. Three years earlier, in two thousand and eleven, 88 00:05:59,956 --> 00:06:02,036 Speaker 1: Charity had been a thirty two year old resident in 89 00:06:02,076 --> 00:06:05,396 Speaker 1: internal medicine, pregnant for the third time in five years, 90 00:06:05,996 --> 00:06:08,436 Speaker 1: when the Santa Barbara County medical director had asked her 91 00:06:08,436 --> 00:06:10,476 Speaker 1: if she consider feeling an opening he had for a 92 00:06:10,516 --> 00:06:15,156 Speaker 1: deputy health officer. The county required its health officers to 93 00:06:15,196 --> 00:06:19,196 Speaker 1: possess both a medical degree and a master's in public health, 94 00:06:19,996 --> 00:06:24,436 Speaker 1: and she had both. He also mentioned in passing, but 95 00:06:24,476 --> 00:06:27,156 Speaker 1: so that Charity heard it loud and clear that the 96 00:06:27,236 --> 00:06:29,996 Speaker 1: luxury she had of being married to a rich surgeon 97 00:06:30,636 --> 00:06:34,356 Speaker 1: meant that she could afford to take the job. The 98 00:06:34,476 --> 00:06:36,876 Speaker 1: job had no obvious appeal, at least to a normal 99 00:06:36,956 --> 00:06:39,556 Speaker 1: young doctor. It paid a third of what she could 100 00:06:39,596 --> 00:06:42,036 Speaker 1: earn starting out in the private practices that had already 101 00:06:42,076 --> 00:06:44,876 Speaker 1: asked her to work for them. Doctors of Santa Barbara 102 00:06:44,996 --> 00:06:49,156 Speaker 1: already referred to themselves as the working poor. Being a 103 00:06:49,196 --> 00:06:52,236 Speaker 1: doctor in Santa Barbara without being paid like one, well, 104 00:06:53,076 --> 00:06:56,836 Speaker 1: that was insane. Everyone tried to talk me out of it, 105 00:06:56,836 --> 00:06:59,996 Speaker 1: said Charity. People couldn't believe it. They were like, you 106 00:07:00,036 --> 00:07:02,956 Speaker 1: aren't seriously thinking of going to work for the county. 107 00:07:03,796 --> 00:07:05,276 Speaker 1: They thought it meant that I was going to be 108 00:07:05,316 --> 00:07:08,236 Speaker 1: a doctor down in the shiitthole basement of the County Clinic. 109 00:07:09,236 --> 00:07:11,836 Speaker 1: The County clinic was where poor people without health insurance 110 00:07:11,836 --> 00:07:15,996 Speaker 1: went for treatment. It was housed inside a decrepit facility 111 00:07:15,996 --> 00:07:19,396 Speaker 1: erected a century earlier on the outskirts of Santa Barbara 112 00:07:19,476 --> 00:07:24,716 Speaker 1: as a sanatorium for tuberculosis patients. Charity still found herself 113 00:07:24,836 --> 00:07:28,036 Speaker 1: drawn to the job. I couldn't figure out why my 114 00:07:28,196 --> 00:07:32,236 Speaker 1: heart strings were tugged. The medical director handed her a 115 00:07:32,276 --> 00:07:36,356 Speaker 1: thick binder whose pages described the job in detail. The 116 00:07:36,476 --> 00:07:40,836 Speaker 1: Health Officers Authority in California it was called She read 117 00:07:40,876 --> 00:07:45,516 Speaker 1: it closely. Health officers in California, like health officers across 118 00:07:45,516 --> 00:07:47,556 Speaker 1: the United States and the rest of the free world, 119 00:07:47,876 --> 00:07:52,236 Speaker 1: had a long list of responsibilities registering births and deaths, 120 00:07:52,996 --> 00:07:58,316 Speaker 1: inspecting restaurants, counting bacteria in ocean water and swimming pools, 121 00:07:59,116 --> 00:08:05,076 Speaker 1: managing chronic disease. None of that really interested her. Then 122 00:08:05,116 --> 00:08:09,556 Speaker 1: she saw the phrase communicable disease controller. It was an 123 00:08:09,596 --> 00:08:14,276 Speaker 1: official state role played by local health officers. Her mind 124 00:08:14,796 --> 00:08:18,996 Speaker 1: lit up. I don't really care about obesity or diabetes. 125 00:08:19,316 --> 00:08:22,276 Speaker 1: I actually don't give a shit about chronic disease. What 126 00:08:22,436 --> 00:08:26,876 Speaker 1: I like is a crisis. What she more than liked 127 00:08:26,916 --> 00:08:28,636 Speaker 1: was the kind of crisis that might be created by 128 00:08:28,676 --> 00:08:33,236 Speaker 1: a communicable disease. She knew it sounded odd, but she 129 00:08:33,276 --> 00:08:35,876 Speaker 1: had been consumed by this interest since she was a 130 00:08:35,916 --> 00:08:41,796 Speaker 1: small child. Disease had shaped history, disease had crippled societies, 131 00:08:42,116 --> 00:08:44,556 Speaker 1: but that's not why, at the age of seven, she'd 132 00:08:44,556 --> 00:08:47,916 Speaker 1: become obsessed with it. It was gruesome death, it was 133 00:08:47,956 --> 00:08:53,516 Speaker 1: the human powerlessness over it. In middle school, she'd created 134 00:08:53,556 --> 00:08:57,196 Speaker 1: styrofoam models of viruses and hung them from her bedroom ceiling, 135 00:08:57,956 --> 00:09:01,556 Speaker 1: just so I could stare at them and think about them. 136 00:09:01,636 --> 00:09:04,516 Speaker 1: She taught herself French so that when the time came 137 00:09:04,556 --> 00:09:07,636 Speaker 1: to move to West Africa to chase disease, as she 138 00:09:07,716 --> 00:09:11,356 Speaker 1: assumed she one day would do, she'd have the ability 139 00:09:11,356 --> 00:09:16,596 Speaker 1: to communicate. In college, as a microbiology major, she stay 140 00:09:16,676 --> 00:09:20,236 Speaker 1: up late reading about yellow fever, tuberculosis in Spanish flu. 141 00:09:21,076 --> 00:09:24,396 Speaker 1: My favorite microbes in college were the human pathogens that 142 00:09:24,476 --> 00:09:28,916 Speaker 1: caused horrific disease, she recalled. I mean, nobody cares about 143 00:09:28,956 --> 00:09:33,596 Speaker 1: plant viruses. In medical school at Tulane University, she'd ignored 144 00:09:33,636 --> 00:09:36,276 Speaker 1: the derision of her fellow doctors and studied at the 145 00:09:36,316 --> 00:09:39,476 Speaker 1: same time for a master's degree in public health, but 146 00:09:39,596 --> 00:09:43,476 Speaker 1: only because Tulane unusually offered a degree with a focus 147 00:09:43,516 --> 00:09:47,156 Speaker 1: on tropical disease. After that, she'd gone to Gabone and 148 00:09:47,236 --> 00:09:49,836 Speaker 1: Niger to work as a doctor, in part because the 149 00:09:49,916 --> 00:09:52,836 Speaker 1: odds seemed to her pretty good that whatever disease was 150 00:09:52,876 --> 00:09:56,076 Speaker 1: going to replicate the destruction of past plagues would come 151 00:09:56,116 --> 00:10:01,436 Speaker 1: from Africa. She knew that her obsession with pandemic disease 152 00:10:01,516 --> 00:10:05,116 Speaker 1: was unusual, even off putting. I learned not to talk 153 00:10:05,116 --> 00:10:08,036 Speaker 1: about it because when I talked about it, people thought 154 00:10:08,076 --> 00:10:11,036 Speaker 1: I was crazy. But the fact remained that from a 155 00:10:11,116 --> 00:10:13,676 Speaker 1: very young age, when she was feeling low, she had 156 00:10:13,756 --> 00:10:17,436 Speaker 1: cheered herself up by reading books on bubonic plague. The 157 00:10:17,476 --> 00:10:22,436 Speaker 1: ones with the grisly drawings she liked best. She read 158 00:10:22,516 --> 00:10:24,716 Speaker 1: more of the fine print in the binder describing the 159 00:10:24,796 --> 00:10:28,756 Speaker 1: role of the local public health officer. One sentence struck 160 00:10:28,756 --> 00:10:33,116 Speaker 1: her as more important than all the others combined. Quote 161 00:10:33,156 --> 00:10:37,236 Speaker 1: Each health officer, knowing or having reason to believe that 162 00:10:37,476 --> 00:10:40,716 Speaker 1: any case of the diseases made reportable by regulation of 163 00:10:40,716 --> 00:10:46,076 Speaker 1: the department, or any other contagious, infectious, or communicable disease 164 00:10:46,196 --> 00:10:50,876 Speaker 1: exists or has recently existed within the territory under his 165 00:10:51,116 --> 00:10:55,476 Speaker 1: or her jurisdiction, shall take measures as may be necessary 166 00:10:55,516 --> 00:10:58,916 Speaker 1: to prevent the spread of the disease or occurrence of 167 00:10:58,956 --> 00:11:05,156 Speaker 1: additional cases, to minimize horrific death, and to chase disease. 168 00:11:05,356 --> 00:11:08,356 Speaker 1: The State of California had bestowed upon local public health 169 00:11:08,356 --> 00:11:14,716 Speaker 1: officers extraordinary legal powers. Charity accepted the job. She typed 170 00:11:14,716 --> 00:11:17,196 Speaker 1: out that one sentence of law and taped to the 171 00:11:17,276 --> 00:11:21,636 Speaker 1: wall of her new office. Once a t B quarantine room, 172 00:11:21,796 --> 00:11:24,236 Speaker 1: her office still had the original grates in the wall 173 00:11:24,396 --> 00:11:26,956 Speaker 1: used to get fresh sea air into the patient's lungs. 174 00:11:27,956 --> 00:11:30,876 Speaker 1: Sitting at her desk in Building four, she could hear 175 00:11:30,916 --> 00:11:34,156 Speaker 1: the screams of the psychiatric patients from across the courtyard 176 00:11:34,316 --> 00:11:39,036 Speaker 1: in Building three. In the halls, cabinets as old as 177 00:11:39,076 --> 00:11:43,756 Speaker 1: the building stored medical instruments that belonged in a museum. 178 00:11:43,876 --> 00:11:46,396 Speaker 1: The stairs led to a dank tunnel under the building 179 00:11:46,796 --> 00:11:49,996 Speaker 1: that went to the old morgue. It was her kind 180 00:11:49,996 --> 00:11:59,636 Speaker 1: of place. She had, in theory, incredible legal powers to 181 00:11:59,676 --> 00:12:03,996 Speaker 1: prevent disease. She soon realized how few people in practice 182 00:12:04,716 --> 00:12:08,676 Speaker 1: knew the law. Most to the citizens of Santa Barbara, 183 00:12:09,276 --> 00:12:13,116 Speaker 1: including nearly all of the public officials, didn't even really 184 00:12:13,236 --> 00:12:15,876 Speaker 1: understand what a public health officer was supposed to do. 185 00:12:16,876 --> 00:12:18,796 Speaker 1: The public health officer had somehow come to be a 186 00:12:18,836 --> 00:12:24,036 Speaker 1: recessive character. The other officials and the public expected her 187 00:12:24,076 --> 00:12:27,236 Speaker 1: to lie low until called upon, usually to make some 188 00:12:27,316 --> 00:12:33,436 Speaker 1: brief ceremonial appearance. The law's words felt strong, but their 189 00:12:33,556 --> 00:12:37,396 Speaker 1: spirit felt weak. By her second year on the job, 190 00:12:37,996 --> 00:12:40,596 Speaker 1: she found herself quoting the laws so often that she 191 00:12:40,676 --> 00:12:43,196 Speaker 1: asked her assistant to laminate a copy of that one 192 00:12:43,276 --> 00:12:45,916 Speaker 1: passage so that she might carry it with her in 193 00:12:45,916 --> 00:12:49,676 Speaker 1: her briefcase. I'm in a meeting, trying to explain to 194 00:12:49,756 --> 00:12:52,716 Speaker 1: people that I actually do have the authority to do 195 00:12:52,916 --> 00:12:55,836 Speaker 1: something I need to do. She said, I really tried 196 00:12:55,956 --> 00:12:58,596 Speaker 1: hard not to whip it out, but I pulled it 197 00:12:58,596 --> 00:13:01,276 Speaker 1: out once a week. By the time she got the 198 00:13:01,316 --> 00:13:03,916 Speaker 1: call about the young woman with tuberculosis in her brain, 199 00:13:04,076 --> 00:13:06,596 Speaker 1: she'd read that one sentence aloud more than just about 200 00:13:06,636 --> 00:13:10,636 Speaker 1: any other in her life. Lines weren't as easily performed 201 00:13:10,676 --> 00:13:13,556 Speaker 1: to say, the verses of the twenty third Psalm, which 202 00:13:13,556 --> 00:13:17,436 Speaker 1: she also loved, but she could bring them equally to life. 203 00:13:17,956 --> 00:13:20,796 Speaker 1: Each health officer, knowing or having reason to believe what 204 00:13:20,876 --> 00:13:23,236 Speaker 1: does that mean, should cry and point her finger in 205 00:13:23,236 --> 00:13:27,556 Speaker 1: the air. It means suspicion. You only need to suspect 206 00:13:27,756 --> 00:13:30,956 Speaker 1: that any case of the diseases made reportable by regulation 207 00:13:30,996 --> 00:13:34,676 Speaker 1: of the department, or any other contagious, infectious or communicable 208 00:13:34,716 --> 00:13:38,476 Speaker 1: disease exists or has recently existed within the territory under 209 00:13:38,516 --> 00:13:42,476 Speaker 1: his or her jurisdiction. Any disease should cry and then 210 00:13:42,516 --> 00:13:46,596 Speaker 1: parse the adjectives. Contagious isn't really a medical term, so 211 00:13:46,756 --> 00:13:49,436 Speaker 1: ignore that they just tossed in the kitchen sink there. 212 00:13:49,876 --> 00:13:54,196 Speaker 1: But you really need to understand the distinction between infectious 213 00:13:54,316 --> 00:14:00,276 Speaker 1: and communicable. All communicable diseases were infectious, but some infectious 214 00:14:00,316 --> 00:14:04,796 Speaker 1: diseases were not communicable. Communicable men a person could give 215 00:14:04,836 --> 00:14:08,876 Speaker 1: it to another person. You could get lyme disease, for instance, 216 00:14:09,116 --> 00:14:12,836 Speaker 1: but you couldn't give it to somebody else. Communicable diseases 217 00:14:12,956 --> 00:14:17,676 Speaker 1: were the diseases that created crises. In an adjective, she'd 218 00:14:17,676 --> 00:14:21,876 Speaker 1: found a vessel for her life's purpose. Shall take measures 219 00:14:21,876 --> 00:14:24,396 Speaker 1: as may be necessary to prevent the spread of the 220 00:14:24,436 --> 00:14:29,076 Speaker 1: disease or occurrence of additional cases, Shall, She'd exclaim, not 221 00:14:29,236 --> 00:14:33,916 Speaker 1: a may A shall not think about it, not consider it, 222 00:14:34,036 --> 00:14:35,916 Speaker 1: not maybe get around to it one day. If you 223 00:14:35,956 --> 00:14:40,116 Speaker 1: feel like it, it's your duty. If you suspect disease, 224 00:14:40,396 --> 00:14:43,836 Speaker 1: you can do whatever the hell you want. Now. She 225 00:14:43,916 --> 00:14:46,516 Speaker 1: had a corpse with TB in a hospital and hours 226 00:14:46,596 --> 00:14:49,596 Speaker 1: drive north. She'd ask them to move the body to 227 00:14:49,596 --> 00:14:52,956 Speaker 1: the Santa Barbara Coroner's office, then call the coroner to 228 00:14:53,036 --> 00:14:55,876 Speaker 1: ask him to send her a sample of the lung tissue. 229 00:14:56,396 --> 00:14:59,796 Speaker 1: That's when the real problem started. At first, he wouldn't 230 00:14:59,796 --> 00:15:03,956 Speaker 1: even come to the phone. Once she'd telephone him into submission, 231 00:15:03,956 --> 00:15:07,236 Speaker 1: and he finally picked up. He simply refused to do it. 232 00:15:08,236 --> 00:15:10,996 Speaker 1: Yet the law was the coroner was meant to do 233 00:15:11,116 --> 00:15:15,396 Speaker 1: with any corpse whatever she told him to do. Instead, 234 00:15:15,436 --> 00:15:19,676 Speaker 1: he explained to her why he wouldn't. To her growing incredulity, 235 00:15:19,716 --> 00:15:22,996 Speaker 1: this seventy something coroner, who had contracted with the county 236 00:15:22,996 --> 00:15:25,836 Speaker 1: to work part time and who clearly had only the 237 00:15:25,916 --> 00:15:29,276 Speaker 1: vaguest idea of what he was talking about, began to 238 00:15:29,396 --> 00:15:33,716 Speaker 1: lecture her about tuberculosis, saying that it was both dangerous 239 00:15:33,716 --> 00:15:37,356 Speaker 1: and unnecessary to extract the young woman's lung, citing some 240 00:15:37,436 --> 00:15:40,276 Speaker 1: study that purported to show that TB in a corpse 241 00:15:40,316 --> 00:15:44,796 Speaker 1: subjected to surgery could become aerosolized and infect the surgeon. 242 00:15:45,716 --> 00:15:48,636 Speaker 1: Charity Deane was at this point the chief health officer 243 00:15:48,676 --> 00:15:52,356 Speaker 1: of Santa Barbara County. She was the youngest chief health 244 00:15:52,396 --> 00:15:55,476 Speaker 1: officer in the history of California. She'd also spent three 245 00:15:55,556 --> 00:15:59,676 Speaker 1: years running the county's TB clinic. She was legally responsible 246 00:15:59,756 --> 00:16:03,076 Speaker 1: for every single case of TB in the county. Fancy 247 00:16:03,156 --> 00:16:06,716 Speaker 1: doctors who had supervised her residency now called her to 248 00:16:06,756 --> 00:16:10,476 Speaker 1: ask for advice about the disease, for crying out loud. 249 00:16:10,796 --> 00:16:13,916 Speaker 1: She was about to be named president of the Tuberculosis 250 00:16:13,956 --> 00:16:19,356 Speaker 1: Controllers Association of the entire State of California. She tried 251 00:16:19,396 --> 00:16:21,676 Speaker 1: to be civil with the old coroner, but it was hard. 252 00:16:22,076 --> 00:16:24,876 Speaker 1: I knew the study, it was a bullshit study, but 253 00:16:24,956 --> 00:16:27,316 Speaker 1: the douchebag said he wouldn't do it, would not even 254 00:16:27,356 --> 00:16:30,156 Speaker 1: allow someone else to come into his office and do it. 255 00:16:30,956 --> 00:16:34,236 Speaker 1: She hung up and called the sheriff. She explained the 256 00:16:34,276 --> 00:16:37,876 Speaker 1: situation sweetly and asked the sheriff to require the coroner 257 00:16:37,916 --> 00:16:40,236 Speaker 1: to cut the young woman open and extract her lung. 258 00:16:40,876 --> 00:16:43,476 Speaker 1: The sheriff didn't know the law either, it seemed as 259 00:16:43,476 --> 00:16:47,036 Speaker 1: he said he wouldn't interfere with the coroner's authority, at 260 00:16:47,076 --> 00:16:51,156 Speaker 1: which point Charity lost her patience. I couldn't believe he 261 00:16:51,196 --> 00:16:53,916 Speaker 1: wasn't doing what I told him to do. She wrote 262 00:16:53,916 --> 00:16:56,156 Speaker 1: out a legal order and delivered it to the sheriff 263 00:16:56,196 --> 00:16:58,996 Speaker 1: in person. Then I waited for the phones to blow up. 264 00:17:01,156 --> 00:17:04,756 Speaker 1: The sheriff couldn't simply ignore a legal order. He phoned 265 00:17:04,836 --> 00:17:07,756 Speaker 1: up the Chief council for the Board of Supervisors to 266 00:17:07,796 --> 00:17:10,796 Speaker 1: confirm his belief that a legal order issued by a 267 00:17:10,876 --> 00:17:15,396 Speaker 1: local public health officer carried no authority. Santa Barbara's Chief 268 00:17:15,396 --> 00:17:18,476 Speaker 1: Council looked into it, and to his surprise, discovered that 269 00:17:18,516 --> 00:17:22,556 Speaker 1: the sheriff was mistaken. The woman was right. The only 270 00:17:22,596 --> 00:17:25,876 Speaker 1: person whose authority trumped the health officers in cases involving 271 00:17:25,916 --> 00:17:30,156 Speaker 1: disease was the governor of California, and then only if 272 00:17:30,156 --> 00:17:37,436 Speaker 1: the governor had declared a state of emergency. With that, 273 00:17:37,836 --> 00:17:41,316 Speaker 1: Charity considered the matter settled, but the coroner's office called 274 00:17:41,316 --> 00:17:45,196 Speaker 1: her the next day to say that it wasn't. They said, okay, 275 00:17:45,316 --> 00:17:47,996 Speaker 1: we'll do it, she recalled, but we won't do it 276 00:17:48,036 --> 00:17:51,716 Speaker 1: inside the office because the building's old and lacks proper ventilation. 277 00:17:52,396 --> 00:17:57,356 Speaker 1: I said, okay, could you do it outside? They said, okay, 278 00:17:57,556 --> 00:18:00,636 Speaker 1: but only if you are here. Not for the first time, 279 00:18:00,676 --> 00:18:03,076 Speaker 1: she wondered what would happen in Santa Barbara County if 280 00:18:03,116 --> 00:18:06,916 Speaker 1: there was ever a serious outbreak of communicable disease. They 281 00:18:06,916 --> 00:18:09,716 Speaker 1: won't even do an autopsy because there are worried about 282 00:18:09,716 --> 00:18:12,756 Speaker 1: arioslised TV. She said, what the fuck are they going 283 00:18:12,796 --> 00:18:16,596 Speaker 1: to do if it's arioslis ebola. It didn't help that 284 00:18:16,676 --> 00:18:19,956 Speaker 1: this was all going down over Christmas. She just turned 285 00:18:19,996 --> 00:18:22,876 Speaker 1: thirty seven, was newly divorced from the rich surgeon, and 286 00:18:22,996 --> 00:18:25,916 Speaker 1: was a single mother to three young boys. As she 287 00:18:26,036 --> 00:18:28,396 Speaker 1: drove to the County Morgue on the day after Christmas, 288 00:18:28,996 --> 00:18:32,196 Speaker 1: she was unsure what awaited her. She sensed that the 289 00:18:32,276 --> 00:18:34,636 Speaker 1: coroner and the sheriff and maybe some other people had 290 00:18:34,636 --> 00:18:38,596 Speaker 1: grown irritated with her. Just how irritated became clear only 291 00:18:38,636 --> 00:18:42,596 Speaker 1: as she rolled into the parking lot beside the Coroner's office. 292 00:18:44,916 --> 00:18:48,476 Speaker 1: Seven people were waiting for her. Outside the morgue, all men, 293 00:18:49,236 --> 00:18:51,556 Speaker 1: the coroner, the sheriff, and a bunch of his deputies. 294 00:18:52,116 --> 00:18:54,916 Speaker 1: They had clearly come for the show. She'd driven straight 295 00:18:54,916 --> 00:18:56,716 Speaker 1: from cleaning up the mess under the tree, and so 296 00:18:56,756 --> 00:19:00,036 Speaker 1: she wasn't in her usual battle armor of Talbot's suit, 297 00:19:00,356 --> 00:19:04,356 Speaker 1: pencil skirt and grandma heels, just attacky Christmas sweater and 298 00:19:04,356 --> 00:19:08,036 Speaker 1: blue jeans. All the men wore full on hazmat suits. 299 00:19:08,596 --> 00:19:10,956 Speaker 1: They look like they're about to walk on the moon, 300 00:19:11,276 --> 00:19:15,956 Speaker 1: the whole team. You'd have thought this wuzzy bullet. The 301 00:19:16,036 --> 00:19:19,076 Speaker 1: morgue itself was even more appalling than the public health office. 302 00:19:19,876 --> 00:19:22,796 Speaker 1: Poking up from scrub oaks and dirt fields. It resembled 303 00:19:22,836 --> 00:19:25,236 Speaker 1: more of the bathrooms at a highway rest stop than 304 00:19:25,276 --> 00:19:28,436 Speaker 1: an official public office. Not for the first time, she 305 00:19:28,556 --> 00:19:31,556 Speaker 1: wondered where they put the bodies. If ever, there were 306 00:19:31,556 --> 00:19:35,156 Speaker 1: lots of gruesome deaths at once. At some remove on 307 00:19:35,156 --> 00:19:37,516 Speaker 1: a picnic table lay a body bag with the young 308 00:19:37,556 --> 00:19:41,796 Speaker 1: woman inside. The coroner was now just angry. He explained 309 00:19:41,796 --> 00:19:45,036 Speaker 1: all over again that the entire operation was unsafe and 310 00:19:45,076 --> 00:19:47,716 Speaker 1: that he was not going to risk opening up the 311 00:19:47,836 --> 00:19:52,316 Speaker 1: body indoors. He sighted the bullshit paper again, this time 312 00:19:52,356 --> 00:19:55,476 Speaker 1: to explain why he hadn't even brought his bonesaw with him, 313 00:19:55,836 --> 00:19:59,236 Speaker 1: as the one known case of a surgeon becoming infected 314 00:19:59,236 --> 00:20:02,236 Speaker 1: with TB by a corpse had involved a bone saw. 315 00:20:02,876 --> 00:20:05,396 Speaker 1: Instead of the bone saw, he had brought along a 316 00:20:05,436 --> 00:20:11,316 Speaker 1: pair of garden shears. Now he offered to her garden shears. 317 00:20:12,516 --> 00:20:15,836 Speaker 1: They were brand new in Gleaming, with the word Ace 318 00:20:16,356 --> 00:20:19,996 Speaker 1: on the red handles for the hardware store. If the 319 00:20:19,996 --> 00:20:22,396 Speaker 1: new chief health officer wanted to cut open the young 320 00:20:22,436 --> 00:20:25,276 Speaker 1: woman and remove a piece of her lung, she'd need 321 00:20:25,276 --> 00:20:29,356 Speaker 1: to do it herself with garden shears. I had thought 322 00:20:29,356 --> 00:20:32,036 Speaker 1: I was just there to watch, said Charity, and he 323 00:20:32,196 --> 00:20:35,876 Speaker 1: turned it into a game of chicken. Medicine had always 324 00:20:35,876 --> 00:20:39,036 Speaker 1: felt to her a man's world, especially in the places 325 00:20:39,156 --> 00:20:43,156 Speaker 1: like here where it touched government. It was then charity. 326 00:20:43,196 --> 00:20:47,316 Speaker 1: Deane realized, the real problem is that this man is frightened. 327 00:20:47,956 --> 00:20:50,756 Speaker 1: She'd been around terrifying diseases most of her adult life, 328 00:20:51,036 --> 00:20:53,836 Speaker 1: and it made a pact with herself not to fear them. 329 00:20:54,556 --> 00:20:56,836 Speaker 1: If you're a truck driver, you know you're going to 330 00:20:56,916 --> 00:21:00,196 Speaker 1: get into an accident sooner or later, so you just 331 00:21:00,356 --> 00:21:02,676 Speaker 1: learn what to do if you are in an accident. 332 00:21:02,956 --> 00:21:05,996 Speaker 1: She said. That's how you get over the fear. You 333 00:21:06,076 --> 00:21:09,396 Speaker 1: just accept that you'll get the disease one day. Men 334 00:21:09,436 --> 00:21:12,676 Speaker 1: weren't so accepting. She'd noticed, especially the big and supposedly 335 00:21:12,716 --> 00:21:15,916 Speaker 1: brave ones. As a medical student, she'd seen the fear 336 00:21:16,076 --> 00:21:18,116 Speaker 1: in the eyes of the New Orleans cops in the 337 00:21:18,156 --> 00:21:21,516 Speaker 1: trauma center. They'd haul in some guy with a gunshot wound, 338 00:21:21,676 --> 00:21:24,316 Speaker 1: but when they found out he had HEPSI or HIV, 339 00:21:24,996 --> 00:21:27,596 Speaker 1: they'd squeal and go take a shower in chlorox from 340 00:21:27,636 --> 00:21:31,556 Speaker 1: head to toe. Over and again. She's seen mesomorphs with 341 00:21:31,596 --> 00:21:34,116 Speaker 1: crew cuts who'd happily run into a burning building to 342 00:21:34,116 --> 00:21:37,556 Speaker 1: save a dog turn uncertain and uneasy in the presence 343 00:21:37,596 --> 00:21:41,756 Speaker 1: of disease. Airborne diseases in particular seemed to spook them. 344 00:21:42,076 --> 00:21:44,756 Speaker 1: That was the number one reason I could not get 345 00:21:44,836 --> 00:21:47,996 Speaker 1: t be patients arrested. She said, the police would turn 346 00:21:48,036 --> 00:21:50,956 Speaker 1: into these squeamish little girls. They'd sit in the car 347 00:21:51,076 --> 00:21:54,636 Speaker 1: and let a nurse go get them. Charity was not 348 00:21:54,716 --> 00:21:58,916 Speaker 1: without her own fears, both real and imagined. The walls 349 00:21:58,956 --> 00:22:01,636 Speaker 1: of her office and home bedroom were plastered with post 350 00:22:01,676 --> 00:22:06,356 Speaker 1: it notes, there is no shortcut to courage. Courage is 351 00:22:06,396 --> 00:22:09,396 Speaker 1: a muscle memory. The tallest oak in the forest was 352 00:22:09,436 --> 00:22:12,876 Speaker 1: once just a little nut that held its ground. Like 353 00:22:13,036 --> 00:22:16,916 Speaker 1: most everyone else, she needed reminding. Unlike most everyone else. 354 00:22:17,396 --> 00:22:23,396 Speaker 1: She reminded herself constantly. Her realization that the men outside 355 00:22:23,436 --> 00:22:25,556 Speaker 1: the coroner's office were afraid in a way that she 356 00:22:25,676 --> 00:22:29,076 Speaker 1: was not led to a thought, they don't think I'm 357 00:22:29,076 --> 00:22:32,756 Speaker 1: going to go through with this, Then another, they don't 358 00:22:32,796 --> 00:22:35,076 Speaker 1: think I will do it because I don't look like 359 00:22:35,156 --> 00:22:38,356 Speaker 1: a person who would do it. Even in heel. She 360 00:22:38,476 --> 00:22:41,276 Speaker 1: was only five foot six and slender. She had mixed 361 00:22:41,316 --> 00:22:43,636 Speaker 1: feelings about her own looks, but men did not appear 362 00:22:43,676 --> 00:22:47,356 Speaker 1: to share them. She'd gotten used to cat calls. She 363 00:22:47,516 --> 00:22:50,916 Speaker 1: created a rule for herself when entering a meeting with 364 00:22:50,956 --> 00:22:54,556 Speaker 1: a certain kind of mail, allow a thirty second recovery 365 00:22:54,596 --> 00:22:58,596 Speaker 1: period before attempting to convey information upon which that mail 366 00:22:58,756 --> 00:23:02,836 Speaker 1: might need to act. Men judge her by appearance and 367 00:23:02,916 --> 00:23:07,156 Speaker 1: were badly deceived. The inside doesn't match the outside, she 368 00:23:07,316 --> 00:23:10,716 Speaker 1: sometimes said of herself. She unzipped the body bag and 369 00:23:10,796 --> 00:23:14,036 Speaker 1: looked at the corpse. A bone saw would have allowed 370 00:23:14,036 --> 00:23:15,676 Speaker 1: her to cut right down the middle of the young 371 00:23:15,716 --> 00:23:18,716 Speaker 1: woman's sternam, but with garden shears, she'd have to snap 372 00:23:18,716 --> 00:23:21,796 Speaker 1: the ribs at the ends. She felt for the edge 373 00:23:21,796 --> 00:23:26,076 Speaker 1: of the first rib snip. It was a sharp, thin sound, 374 00:23:26,356 --> 00:23:31,316 Speaker 1: like a crab shell cracking snip. As she cut, she 375 00:23:31,436 --> 00:23:36,236 Speaker 1: sensed the eyes inside the hazmat suits looking away. They 376 00:23:36,236 --> 00:23:38,836 Speaker 1: had left the young woman's face uncovered. That was the 377 00:23:38,876 --> 00:23:42,636 Speaker 1: most unsettling part. Normally, a surgeon saw only the tiny 378 00:23:42,676 --> 00:23:46,596 Speaker 1: patch of flesh upon which she operated. The sight of 379 00:23:46,636 --> 00:23:51,436 Speaker 1: the young woman's face made the operation feel personal, disturbing. 380 00:23:52,396 --> 00:23:55,956 Speaker 1: She felt woozy and nauseous. I was just saying over 381 00:23:55,996 --> 00:23:59,836 Speaker 1: and over in my head, don't faint, don't faint. And 382 00:24:00,036 --> 00:24:03,276 Speaker 1: I was mad. This was such disrespect for her and 383 00:24:03,356 --> 00:24:06,196 Speaker 1: for her family. But they were like, you want to 384 00:24:06,236 --> 00:24:11,276 Speaker 1: see it, you get to do it. Snip. The crab 385 00:24:11,316 --> 00:24:14,876 Speaker 1: shell finally cracked. She tossed the garden shears to one 386 00:24:14,876 --> 00:24:17,316 Speaker 1: side of the body and pulled apart the woman's ribs. 387 00:24:18,116 --> 00:24:21,076 Speaker 1: At that moment, I had this feeling, this feeling of 388 00:24:21,116 --> 00:24:25,716 Speaker 1: such grief for her husband. She didn't show any feeling 389 00:24:25,716 --> 00:24:27,876 Speaker 1: at all to the men, though she didn't want to 390 00:24:27,876 --> 00:24:31,276 Speaker 1: give the douchebag the satisfaction. She needed a chunk of 391 00:24:31,356 --> 00:24:33,596 Speaker 1: the woman's lung tissue to take back to Manny in 392 00:24:33,636 --> 00:24:36,636 Speaker 1: the lab for testing. But as she reached into the 393 00:24:36,636 --> 00:24:40,156 Speaker 1: woman with the garden shears, the coroner reached in too. 394 00:24:41,036 --> 00:24:45,236 Speaker 1: He wanted to help. Should we look in her belly, 395 00:24:45,356 --> 00:24:48,636 Speaker 1: he asked gently, Right, thought, Charity. If it was in 396 00:24:48,716 --> 00:24:51,076 Speaker 1: her belly, then it was in her blood. And if 397 00:24:51,116 --> 00:24:53,836 Speaker 1: it was in her blood, it was probably on her 398 00:24:53,916 --> 00:24:59,196 Speaker 1: lung She felt around for signs of tuberculosis. Her internal 399 00:24:59,276 --> 00:25:03,356 Speaker 1: organs were perfect, lovely. If the lungs were speckled and bumpy, 400 00:25:03,556 --> 00:25:08,716 Speaker 1: I would know, and they weren't. Her hands, sensed with 401 00:25:08,796 --> 00:25:12,156 Speaker 1: the would later find the TV hadn't ever left the brain. 402 00:25:13,556 --> 00:25:15,956 Speaker 1: In the end, the coroner saved her the trouble of 403 00:25:15,996 --> 00:25:17,676 Speaker 1: cutting out a piece of the lung with the garden 404 00:25:17,716 --> 00:25:22,196 Speaker 1: shears by showing her how to release the lungs. They 405 00:25:22,236 --> 00:25:25,236 Speaker 1: did it together. It was as if her nerve had 406 00:25:25,316 --> 00:25:29,356 Speaker 1: changed his view of the situation. Now she held the 407 00:25:29,396 --> 00:25:33,476 Speaker 1: young woman's lungs in her hands. This jello outside the 408 00:25:33,556 --> 00:25:36,876 Speaker 1: human body, lung tissue didn't hold its form, and now 409 00:25:36,916 --> 00:25:39,516 Speaker 1: she could see just how sure the coroner had been 410 00:25:39,596 --> 00:25:42,436 Speaker 1: that none of this would ever happen. He had nowhere 411 00:25:42,476 --> 00:25:45,596 Speaker 1: to put them. The only container in sight was an 412 00:25:45,636 --> 00:25:49,596 Speaker 1: orange plastic bucket from home depot. She grabbed the woman's 413 00:25:49,636 --> 00:25:52,036 Speaker 1: lungs and placed them into it, then tossed the bucket 414 00:25:52,076 --> 00:26:01,076 Speaker 1: into the car and drove away to the men she 415 00:26:01,156 --> 00:26:05,196 Speaker 1: left behind. The entire scene would remain a vivid memory 416 00:26:05,356 --> 00:26:07,956 Speaker 1: to her. It was almost just another day in the 417 00:26:07,956 --> 00:26:11,636 Speaker 1: life of the local health officer. They had no idea 418 00:26:11,636 --> 00:26:13,956 Speaker 1: of the things she had done or what she was 419 00:26:14,036 --> 00:26:18,756 Speaker 1: capable of. The coroner obviously hadn't even considered the possibility 420 00:26:18,756 --> 00:26:21,396 Speaker 1: that she was a trained surgeon. Men like that always 421 00:26:21,436 --> 00:26:24,836 Speaker 1: underestimate me, she said. They think my spirit animal is 422 00:26:24,836 --> 00:26:32,516 Speaker 1: a bunny, and it's a fucking dragon. You've been listening 423 00:26:32,516 --> 00:26:35,836 Speaker 1: to chapter one of Michael Lewis's new book, The Premonition, 424 00:26:38,156 --> 00:26:41,196 Speaker 1: But we have more of Michael still to come. Stay 425 00:26:41,196 --> 00:26:44,596 Speaker 1: with us after the break for an exclusive author interview. 426 00:26:56,596 --> 00:26:59,636 Speaker 1: We're back with one more extra for you ATR listeners. 427 00:26:59,916 --> 00:27:03,316 Speaker 1: In a very COVID safe interview, the author Michael Lewis 428 00:27:03,676 --> 00:27:06,436 Speaker 1: agreed to talk about his new book The Premonition with 429 00:27:07,356 --> 00:27:15,556 Speaker 1: the author Michael Lewis. Here's their hard hitting conversation. Good 430 00:27:15,596 --> 00:27:20,316 Speaker 1: to see you, Michael. It's been too long. So look, 431 00:27:20,396 --> 00:27:21,876 Speaker 1: I like dudes to ask you the kind of questions 432 00:27:21,876 --> 00:27:25,356 Speaker 1: that you don't get asked that often. You get asked 433 00:27:25,596 --> 00:27:27,396 Speaker 1: all the same questions on a book tour, and you 434 00:27:27,396 --> 00:27:30,636 Speaker 1: get sick of answering them my bed and so first 435 00:27:30,796 --> 00:27:34,236 Speaker 1: kind of insulting. We know from your biography that you 436 00:27:34,356 --> 00:27:38,516 Speaker 1: got a d in biology your sophomore year in high school, 437 00:27:38,916 --> 00:27:42,756 Speaker 1: and that you wiggle through the science requirement college by 438 00:27:42,796 --> 00:27:45,676 Speaker 1: taking a course called Physics for Poets, and you were 439 00:27:45,716 --> 00:27:48,076 Speaker 1: so insecure about it that you took it past fail 440 00:27:48,516 --> 00:27:52,676 Speaker 1: and you flunked. So you have established that you aren't 441 00:27:52,716 --> 00:27:57,516 Speaker 1: the go to guy for matters of science. What business 442 00:27:57,556 --> 00:28:01,516 Speaker 1: do you think you have writing a book about a virus? 443 00:28:03,356 --> 00:28:04,916 Speaker 1: You don't know me as well as you think you 444 00:28:04,956 --> 00:28:08,676 Speaker 1: know me. All right, Yes, I did poorly in high school. 445 00:28:09,116 --> 00:28:12,396 Speaker 1: Alogy and I didn't do well in physics and college, 446 00:28:13,116 --> 00:28:15,956 Speaker 1: but I actually got my start as a writer on 447 00:28:15,996 --> 00:28:19,076 Speaker 1: the science pages of The Economist. It's true that I'm 448 00:28:19,156 --> 00:28:21,756 Speaker 1: nobody's idea of a scientist. No one would hire me 449 00:28:21,836 --> 00:28:25,556 Speaker 1: in their lab. But there's a funny kind of advantage 450 00:28:25,876 --> 00:28:30,636 Speaker 1: to having no clue about the subject when you enter it, 451 00:28:30,716 --> 00:28:33,396 Speaker 1: because you're in the state of the mind of many readers. 452 00:28:33,676 --> 00:28:36,436 Speaker 1: And I think my problem with science back in high 453 00:28:36,436 --> 00:28:39,596 Speaker 1: school and even in college, it wasn't that I couldn't 454 00:28:39,636 --> 00:28:42,396 Speaker 1: grasp it. It was just it was presented to me 455 00:28:42,436 --> 00:28:45,716 Speaker 1: in the most mind numbingly boring way as kind of 456 00:28:45,716 --> 00:28:48,076 Speaker 1: a fat, all complete rather than a search or request 457 00:28:48,236 --> 00:28:53,196 Speaker 1: or a tool for curiosity. So in my defense, my 458 00:28:53,236 --> 00:28:57,556 Speaker 1: attitudes towards science have changed, all right, next question. You 459 00:28:57,596 --> 00:29:00,036 Speaker 1: wrote a book called Fifth Risk, and it seemed to 460 00:29:00,036 --> 00:29:02,636 Speaker 1: be all about how horrible Donald Trump was and that 461 00:29:02,716 --> 00:29:04,956 Speaker 1: Donald Trump was going to kill everybody because he wasn't 462 00:29:04,956 --> 00:29:07,396 Speaker 1: managing the government properly, and so on and so forth. 463 00:29:08,076 --> 00:29:12,116 Speaker 1: And in this book Trump hardly appears. He's kind of 464 00:29:12,116 --> 00:29:15,716 Speaker 1: a shadowy presence, but it isn't certainly not about Donald Trump. 465 00:29:15,996 --> 00:29:17,996 Speaker 1: And in this other book you wrote the fifth risk. 466 00:29:18,476 --> 00:29:21,116 Speaker 1: You were holding out all these public servants as heroes, 467 00:29:21,196 --> 00:29:23,796 Speaker 1: and in this book there's some ones who are clearly 468 00:29:23,876 --> 00:29:26,796 Speaker 1: not heroes, like they're clearly making a hash of things. 469 00:29:26,836 --> 00:29:30,076 Speaker 1: In particular, people at the CDC, Could you reconcile all 470 00:29:30,116 --> 00:29:33,156 Speaker 1: this for us so we can at least delude ourselves 471 00:29:33,156 --> 00:29:37,036 Speaker 1: that there's some coherence to your work. Well, thanks for 472 00:29:37,036 --> 00:29:39,836 Speaker 1: putting it that way. I'd say two things. One is 473 00:29:39,956 --> 00:29:44,516 Speaker 1: that as I dug into the material that became the premonition, 474 00:29:45,276 --> 00:29:48,276 Speaker 1: it became really clear to me that the causes of 475 00:29:48,396 --> 00:29:53,036 Speaker 1: our horrible response to the pandemic ran much deeper than 476 00:29:53,156 --> 00:29:57,916 Speaker 1: just one president. I didn't think of the government employees 477 00:29:58,076 --> 00:30:03,996 Speaker 1: who performed badly in the pandemic as like villains. I 478 00:30:04,076 --> 00:30:06,676 Speaker 1: thought of them as people who were trapped in a 479 00:30:06,716 --> 00:30:11,636 Speaker 1: horrible system, and that the villain and in in this story 480 00:30:11,716 --> 00:30:14,956 Speaker 1: is really a broken system, and that the heroes in 481 00:30:14,956 --> 00:30:17,436 Speaker 1: this story, the people, were inside the system kind of 482 00:30:17,476 --> 00:30:19,756 Speaker 1: trying to fight the system. I don't think the two 483 00:30:19,796 --> 00:30:23,356 Speaker 1: things contradict each other in the way you described. I 484 00:30:23,356 --> 00:30:27,116 Speaker 1: think your question is a little stupid. All right, that's 485 00:30:27,156 --> 00:30:29,876 Speaker 1: one way to charm an interviewer. Let's see what else 486 00:30:29,916 --> 00:30:33,716 Speaker 1: I have here for you? What do you expect to 487 00:30:33,876 --> 00:30:38,916 Speaker 1: be the biggest mistake that readers meg about the story 488 00:30:38,956 --> 00:30:41,476 Speaker 1: you were trying to tell, Like, what do you expect 489 00:30:41,556 --> 00:30:44,316 Speaker 1: is going to happen after the book comes out where 490 00:30:44,316 --> 00:30:46,556 Speaker 1: you're going to say, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa. That wasn't 491 00:30:46,636 --> 00:30:50,556 Speaker 1: the point. You're missing the point. Well, that's funny you 492 00:30:50,596 --> 00:30:53,796 Speaker 1: asked that because I've been thinking about that, and I've 493 00:30:53,836 --> 00:30:57,876 Speaker 1: been thinking about it because after the big short was published. 494 00:30:57,996 --> 00:30:59,396 Speaker 1: I mean, I can't tell you how many calls I 495 00:30:59,436 --> 00:31:01,916 Speaker 1: had from like people on Capitol Hill who wanted me 496 00:31:01,916 --> 00:31:04,676 Speaker 1: to come testify or will you come speak to the 497 00:31:04,716 --> 00:31:08,036 Speaker 1: Democratic Caucus or the Republican Caucus. But what the book 498 00:31:08,116 --> 00:31:10,716 Speaker 1: was trying to say is it's these people I wrote about. 499 00:31:10,956 --> 00:31:13,796 Speaker 1: I found the people who can explain the thing that 500 00:31:13,916 --> 00:31:17,876 Speaker 1: was my only job. I was their stenographer. And that's 501 00:31:17,876 --> 00:31:20,356 Speaker 1: what's happened again. And I know what's going to happen 502 00:31:20,676 --> 00:31:22,236 Speaker 1: is that I'm going to get calls from like a 503 00:31:22,316 --> 00:31:25,116 Speaker 1: senator saying, Wow, could you talk to me about what 504 00:31:25,356 --> 00:31:26,916 Speaker 1: actually happened and what we need to do to I 505 00:31:26,956 --> 00:31:30,236 Speaker 1: don't know, change disease control in the United States, And 506 00:31:30,316 --> 00:31:32,156 Speaker 1: I'll say to them. You know, I know it's in 507 00:31:32,196 --> 00:31:34,476 Speaker 1: the book, and I got a d in biology my 508 00:31:34,556 --> 00:31:37,276 Speaker 1: sophomore year in high school. Why you asking me call 509 00:31:37,356 --> 00:31:41,236 Speaker 1: those people? That's what I'll say. It's nice to see 510 00:31:41,276 --> 00:31:43,876 Speaker 1: you hid and rare note of modesty and humility in 511 00:31:43,956 --> 00:31:47,156 Speaker 1: that answer to the question. There's this kind of a 512 00:31:47,196 --> 00:31:50,436 Speaker 1: false modesty, but I guess false modesty is better than 513 00:31:50,436 --> 00:31:53,396 Speaker 1: no modesty at all. Why don't we end with this? 514 00:31:54,076 --> 00:31:56,276 Speaker 1: I'm actually not all that curious about this, but the 515 00:31:56,276 --> 00:31:59,316 Speaker 1: producers of Against the Rules asked me to ask you 516 00:31:59,356 --> 00:32:02,716 Speaker 1: this question, and it's how does your book connect with 517 00:32:02,796 --> 00:32:05,916 Speaker 1: the next season of Against the Rules? I am so 518 00:32:05,996 --> 00:32:08,516 Speaker 1: glad you asked that. Finally asked me something as useful. 519 00:32:09,116 --> 00:32:12,076 Speaker 1: There is a connection, a very deep connection. One of 520 00:32:12,076 --> 00:32:15,196 Speaker 1: the things that became very clear when I was working 521 00:32:15,276 --> 00:32:18,156 Speaker 1: on The Premonition was that the United States had an 522 00:32:18,196 --> 00:32:21,716 Speaker 1: expert problem. So like newspaper reporters, when they needed to 523 00:32:21,756 --> 00:32:25,396 Speaker 1: know something about epidemiology, we call a virologist and they 524 00:32:25,436 --> 00:32:27,076 Speaker 1: treat them all the same. And if they need to 525 00:32:27,116 --> 00:32:29,676 Speaker 1: know something about virology, they call the epidemiologists, or they 526 00:32:29,716 --> 00:32:32,076 Speaker 1: just be these talking heads on TV who happened to 527 00:32:32,116 --> 00:32:35,276 Speaker 1: have gotten somewhere near someone who knew something. We're presenting 528 00:32:35,316 --> 00:32:39,036 Speaker 1: themselves as pandemic experts. At least part of the story 529 00:32:39,036 --> 00:32:43,156 Speaker 1: in The Premonition is a story about experts that is 530 00:32:43,196 --> 00:32:45,876 Speaker 1: not fully explored in the book, because the book really 531 00:32:45,916 --> 00:32:49,076 Speaker 1: is a story, but that we will explore in the 532 00:32:49,076 --> 00:32:52,916 Speaker 1: next season of Against the Rules. Thank you for your time, Michael, 533 00:32:53,316 --> 00:32:56,956 Speaker 1: It's been my pleasure. If it's okay with you, I'm 534 00:32:56,996 --> 00:33:00,716 Speaker 1: going to read the credits now. Against the Rules is 535 00:33:00,756 --> 00:33:04,756 Speaker 1: written and hosted by me Michael Lewis and produced by 536 00:33:04,836 --> 00:33:09,476 Speaker 1: Katherine Girardo and Lydia Gencott, edited by Julia Barton and 537 00:33:09,596 --> 00:33:14,756 Speaker 1: Audrey Dilling, with music by Stellwagen Sinfonett. Mia Lobell is 538 00:33:14,756 --> 00:33:18,956 Speaker 1: our executive producer. Thanks also to Jacob Weisberg, Heather Fain, 539 00:33:19,316 --> 00:33:24,516 Speaker 1: John Snars, Carli Miliori, Christina Sullivan, Eric Sandler, Maggie Taylor, 540 00:33:24,796 --> 00:33:31,036 Speaker 1: Nicole Morano, Emily Rosnick, Maya Kaney, Jason Gambrel, Kadija Holland, 541 00:33:31,396 --> 00:33:34,716 Speaker 1: and special thanks to Charity Deane for lending her story 542 00:33:34,796 --> 00:33:37,996 Speaker 1: and her voice to the Premonition. Against the Rules is 543 00:33:37,996 --> 00:33:41,716 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. Sign up for Pushkin's newsletter 544 00:33:41,716 --> 00:33:45,676 Speaker 1: at Pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcast listen 545 00:33:45,676 --> 00:33:49,316 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 546 00:33:49,316 --> 00:33:58,916 Speaker 1: your podcasts. Against the Rules, we'll be back with our 547 00:33:58,996 --> 00:34:03,076 Speaker 1: new season this fall. The Premonition is out now. You'll 548 00:34:03,076 --> 00:34:04,756 Speaker 1: find it wherever books are sold.