WEBVTT - Rhyme and Punishment 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:16.400 On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:27.560 Imagine if artists were held criminally liable for the lines 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.040 they said or acts they portrayed while making. 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:33.080 Art, like if Jason Bateman was convicted for money laundering 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:36.600 for his role as Marty in the TV series Ozark. 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:39.479 Or if police hurt Carrie Underwood singing about taking a 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:42.280 Louisville slugger to the headlights of her Cheetah Man's car 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:44.280 and put out a warrant for her arrest. 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.120 As the ysl Rico trial in Atlanta continues, Rapper Young 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:50.879 Thug doesn't have to imagine happening tomorrow. 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:53.800 Rapper Young Thug and his co defendants in the ysl 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:56.440 Rico trial will be Young Thug is accused of leading 0:00:56.480 --> 0:00:59.360 a violent street gang, and prosecutors are using his song 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:00.600 lyrics as evidence. 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:02.360 He is the one they're all afraid of. 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:04.640 He's the one that's King Swan. 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:07.520 But Young Thug isn't the first rapper to get caught 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:10.560 in the cross hairs of the weaponization of rap lyrics. 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.679 One of the earliest and most commonly cited cases is 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:17.120 the nineteen ninety one Foster case, where a Seventh Circuit 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:20.920 Appeals Court upheld the conviction of Derek Foster, whose prosecution 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:24.000 relied on rap lyrics he wrote about drugs and narcotics trafficking. 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.520 Another early high profile example was Snoop Dogg's nineteen ninety 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:28.319 three murder trial. 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:31.199 We the jury and above and tile action. 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:34.320 Finally, defendant Calvin Brod is not guilty of the crime 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:35.600 of murder in the first degree. 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:39.559 However, it was the people Versus Olgein case in nineteen 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:42.720 ninety four that arguably had the biggest influence on the 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:46.280 use of this tactic. In this case, Cesar Javier Olgein 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:50.080 and Francisco called ro Mora were convicted and the prosecution 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:51.960 used rap lyrics as evidence. 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.040 Prosecutors in the aforementioned cases held the same views as 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:58.400 Fanie Willis Holden County, Georgia's district attorneys. 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:01.920 Don't confess to climbs on rap lyrics if you do 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:03.960 not want them used, or at least get out of 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:04.360 my account. 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:07.200 These cases mark the beginning of a controversial legal trend 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:09.960 where rap lyrics were used as evidence in criminal trials, 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:13.880 sparking debates about racial stereotypes, First Amendment rights, and the 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:17.560 potential bias against rap music and its artists. I'm Eves 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:21.520 and I'm Katie. Today's episode Rhyme and Punishment. 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:26.120 A new documentary, As We Speak explores the weaponization of 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:29.040 rap lyrics in the legal system, shedding light on the 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:33.840 use of artistic expression as evidence in criminal trials. Directed 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:36.760 by Jason Harper and featuring hip hop artists Kimba as 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:39.720 a guide and character, the film delves into the ways 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:42.720 in which rap lyrics have been used in court, examining 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:46.079 the impact of this practice on the music industry and 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:46.880 its artists. 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:49.120 Hi Kenva Hi. 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:54.200 Kimva was going on Yes we Can Perfect, and we got. 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:55.720 A chance to catch up with Jason and Kimba to 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:58.320 talk to them about as we Speak and the implications 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:07.280 of criminalizing in art form. So the beginning of As 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.800 we Speak, we saw you Kimba in the archives looking 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.800 at the criminalization but also like the demonization of black 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:18.680 music from slave songs to blues to rock enroll and 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:22.960 now wrap. And I think going into the documentary, you 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:24.880 can feel like, oh, this is like a really new phenomenon, 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:27.239 especially being in Atlanta. We're seeing what's happening with the 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:30.480 but it's the act of policing black expression is really 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:34.360 quite old. So like, how did both of you feel 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:38.320 about that connection, that historical connection when you're making this 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:41.040 film and like unraveling all these details. 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:43.920 Yeah, I mean that was one of the first scenes 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:46.640 in my mind that was really crystal clear. And it 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:51.360 started from when I found these Dutch slave trader journals 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:56.440 from sixteen seventy that said, we can hear the Africans 0:03:56.480 --> 0:03:59.280 communicating on the slave ship on the Middle Passage that 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:01.520 they had written. We can hear them communicating, but we 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:05.720 don't know what they're saying. We don't understand, And that 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:09.200 to me sounded like exactly what was happening in courtrooms today. 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:11.440 And so I thought, if we went back and looked 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:15.000 at every single uniquely black genre from then all the 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:17.559 way to today, how many other times did that happen? 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:21.320 And it turned out that didn't happen every single with 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:26.400 every single genre that the black community had had created. 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:30.440 And then it was no surprise that we're experiencing what 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:32.560 we're experiencing right now with hip hop. 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:36.880 Even with jazz, there wasn't there's no words the bay 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:38.680 and I jazz I was like, all right, what is 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:39.359 this really about? 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:39.600 You know? 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:40.080 Yeah? 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:42.640 And I the quote we can hear what they're saying, 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:44.919 but we don't understand. And when people are in the 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:49.479 courtroom like oh, like the example of like making a killings, like, well, 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:51.719 clearly that means you're making a lot of money. Yeah, 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:55.520 But when you have a jury of maybe mostly white 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:58.839 people and a judge that's white, and a prosecutor who's white, 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:01.920 and you know, the big scary black man who said 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.320 he's making a killing, do you think it is like 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:10.400 really like misinterpretation or just like refusing like willful ignorance, 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:12.080 refusing to understand. 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:17.640 I think that's a really big question. Like I think 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:22.640 part of it is the idea of like they don't 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:24.960 respect us enough to think that we can speak in 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:27.279 metaphor that we can see it. They don't. They don't 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.520 see what we do is are And another part of 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:34.359 it is just how effective of a tool it is, 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:36.560 Like it doesn't even matter. It gets the job done, 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:37.520 and so they're going to use. 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:40.479 It, you know why. I try to understand, And the 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:43.599 answer for them is there's there's no reason too it's working, 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.039 then don't question it. 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:49.360 Yeah, it seems like it's kind of like a magic 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:51.840 bullet when you get into the courtroom and you hear 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:53.880 these lyrics because when you like, when it's not over 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:57.839 a beat, when just like some you know, uptight. 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.800 White guys really get your life, they really kill the 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:02.520 folks out here right right right. 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:04.440 And that came up in the film when they were 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:06.480 talking about the difference they were doing the study and 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:09.880 reading the differences between one genre of music and how 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:12.440 that came out and versus how people were able to 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:15.000 understand and then a different genre of music. 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:20.640 Can y'all talk about the Batman Blunder study? Describe it 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.240 and then describe like the not so surprising results. 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:27.400 Yeah. The study was done by a professor named Adam 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:31.280 Dunbar who took the same set of lyrics, the same 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:36.960 lyric which is from a song called Badman's Plunder. Well 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:40.000 early when he evening out rolling around, I was even 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:41.480 a kind of mean a shot to get the d 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:45.800 down from nineteen sixty like the whole kind of country 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:49.800 folk song. But he showed it to people, and he 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:52.800 showed it to three different groups. One group he said 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.800 that these lyrics are wrapped, one group he said these 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:58.480 lyrics are country, and one group he said these lyrics 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:04.039 are heavy metal. And depending on the group, they all 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:08.760 interpreted the same set of lyrics differently in relation to 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:14.680 whether or not they felt that the singer or the 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:19.000 artist behind the lyrics was more prone to violence. Meant 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:22.720 what they said literally is supposed to figuratively, et cetera. 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:24.720 And Kim I can tell you kind of what the 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:25.640 result of that was. 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:28.840 Yeah, I mean, it's exactly what you would think it 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:34.720 would be. People people thought that when when they thought 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:38.520 the lyrics were by black artists, they were hip hop artists, 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:42.520 they saw it as more violent, they saw they saw 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:46.000 the art as less of an art like they thought 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:49.000 the artist was more likely to actually do those things. 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:54.320 And it just speaks to the subconscious biases that people 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:58.280 have and how that can play in the courtroom. It's 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:02.120 like when when you're reading the lyrics to a jury 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.920 that see, you know, the big scary black man, or 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:10.920 a judge that doesn't see himself in the person, like 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:15.160 he doesn't see like his grandkids, his nephew in the person. 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:23.680 And when the lyrics are sometimes the only evidence you 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:28.120 get to see how effective it is, it's still extremely effective. 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:27.880 You know. 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:31.120 Yeah, It's like you're always trying to convince people who 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:32.560 see you as an other who see you as an 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:35.520 outsider of your humanity because it so often takes like 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:40.239 exactly what you said of I see something of myself 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:42.040 in you are something that I know that I can 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:44.520 relate to that is more human, which often ends up 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:49.199 being a family member before somebody is able to even 0:08:49.520 --> 0:08:52.760 form or any sort of connection or empathy. That becomes 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:55.600 very clear in this case, right, Yeah, And. 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.480 That's empirical too, like in the UK, especially if they've 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:03.920 done studies with judges and studies that measure what type 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:08.280 of sentencing, the harshness of the sentencing with white judges, 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:14.000 with white accused people have been accused of crimes versus 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.080 black people who have been accused of crimes, and there's 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:23.240 a huge disparity with as you might expect, the the 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.360 young black men who are charged of the same crimes 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:29.840 are receiving much heavier punishments. And it's exactly because of that. 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.080 There's not there's not a built in empathy there. And 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:38.000 then there's of course, you know, four hundred plus years 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:44.640 of institutionalized racism and literal institutions, but also just programmed 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:49.719 into the culture that they're not aware of or theoretically 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.080 they're not aware of that that's kind of programmed into 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:54.760 the way that they see the world and see people. 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:57.440 So it's a it's a lot to fight against an 0:09:57.559 --> 0:09:59.440 almost impossible to fight when you land in that. 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:10.240 We'll be back with Jason and Kimba after the break. 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:19.400 What do you think it is that it makes it 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:22.320 hard for people to separate the art from the artists 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:23.840 with rat that's. 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:28.080 A complicated thing too. The idea is to make people 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:32.439 feel like you're real, you know, like like if we 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:35.040 don't think an artists is real, then we sort of 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.840 respect them less. And it's not really the same in movies, 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:40.280 you know, we know that there's a director, we know 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:43.760 that somebody wrote the script, and other art forms not 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:47.920 really the same. But and then even in other genres, 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:49.360 it's not such a focal point. 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.400 Did you find that you had any sort of deepening 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:55.719 of your love and care for the art or for 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:58.319 all of the people who came before you in hearing 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:01.960 these stories about people who were unished so wrongfully. 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.800 Totally, it's difficult to talk to Max Fiffs from your story. 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:09.520 Mac McKinley Phipps Jr. Was convicted of manslaughter in two 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:12.280 thousand and one after a prosecutor. 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:17.440 Not fixed, you know, empathetic, you know, like somebody that 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:21.760 lost twenty one years of his life for a crime 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:25.640 he didn't commit and somebody even confessed to it. It's like, 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:35.280 that's heartbreaking. And I learned that of course, like these 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:39.920 big cases, big profile cases like young thugs, are important, 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:45.440 and but there's so many other people that aren't like 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:47.800 huge profile cases that might be in a small city, 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:52.040 might be doesn't have a million dollar lawyer, doesn't have 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:55.640 the people to speak up for them, that they don't 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:59.320 really have a chance when when this magic bullet like 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.120 you said, is introduced, Uh, it could be the owns. 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:03.960 Like I said before, it could be the only evidence 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.240 that they use, and you can still you can still 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:08.200 get put away for it. 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:08.800 Uh. 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:13.080 And so it definitely deepened my passion. I was just like, 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:17.760 we should be able to say, you know, we should 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:19.800 be able to create the art that we that we 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:20.480 want to create. 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:25.680 You know, and with mac Fipps, they spliced together lyrics 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.959 from two different songs. There's no physical evidence. So his 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:32.760 really hit me. It just seemed like just so deeply unfair. 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.400 It was like a very visceral reaction I had. Do 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:38.640 you decide not to say certain things in your songs 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:41.160 based on just like the climate of how lyrics have 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:43.360 been weaponized, not at all. 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.880 I think since learning all of this, I've gone even 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:52.200 deeper into uh, you know, using metaphor just to show 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:56.800 how ridiculous it all this, you know, just to really 0:12:56.880 --> 0:13:02.800 exercise that right. But yeah, I feel like once you 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:06.560 start to sort of censor yourself and not just water 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:08.360 down the art and people don't really want to hear that, 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:10.640 I feel like people could, people could tell when you're 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:12.680 not being your true self. 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:18.640 Mm hmmm, you're like thinking about how others are gonna Yeah, yeah, 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:20.400 watching your back and all that stuff. 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:25.800 Yeah, you know you went to the Bronx Chicago, Atlanta, La, London. 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:28.480 I don't even think about rap when I think about London. 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:29.560 Oh really, I do. 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:30.800 They fun. 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:34.439 Listen to a lot of. 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:44.080 Uk up Atlanta's Supremacist Child. But my question. 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:48.959 Is, because you we saw that lyrics have been used 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:51.199 in like over seven hundred cases, and those are just 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:55.240 the ones that you know haven't been pleted out. Do 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.320 we see this same phenomenon happening in countries that are 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:02.600 a majority black, for instance, like Nigeria or Jamaica. Is 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:04.840 it the same type of thing going on, or is 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.680 it like you know, United States, United Kingdom. 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:12.760 I shot a documentary in Senegal which is about about 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:15.160 the student riots that are happening at the only public 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:18.800 university there, and there's this really vibrant hip hop movement, 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:21.520 underground hip hop movement that was happening, which is like 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:24.880 the main place that the students were able to vocalize 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:27.960 their descent in a way that could spread. And it 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:33.360 was very kind of anti anti the government forces that 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:36.520 were pressing them, but it's a for them. It was 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:39.080 a much more kind of direct physical thing, like it's 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:40.760 not like we're going to lock you up three lyrics, 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:44.120 We're going to beat you or kill you. And so 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:47.720 that it's difficult because we're what Kim and I are 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:52.040 kind of exploring in this documentary is the criminal justice system, 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.520 which has its own issues obviously, but in other places 0:14:55.720 --> 0:15:00.800 in Africa, it's a very it's a very different pl dynamic. 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.600 There are a lot more insidious things that people can 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:11.440 do with technology. So do you see any sort of 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:16.440 anything around technology coming up in these cases that has 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:17.480 been interesting to you? 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:23.160 When evidence is brought into a courtroom, everything is stripped 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:27.600 away except for the words and so they just used 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:30.520 the lyrics in this case like the way the music 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:32.920 was created or any It's like it's almost like they 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:36.600 are the technology that's flessing things together and it becomes 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:40.400 this really kind of I don't know what the word is, 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:42.760 like lunite process, where you're just like, I'm going to 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:44.800 take citors and cut this out and put it together 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:48.800 with that and say that that's what happened. And they're 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:53.040 talking to juries, which they're kind of making it for 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:55.720 the lowest common denominator. The court room is just a 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:58.920 totally different place than reality, and we saw that here 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:01.720 and we also saw them then where the theatricality of 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:04.920 it is like crank to eleven and they're wearing wigs. 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:08.240 The judge is wearing, you know, a big gray wig 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:12.680 like from the seventeen hundreds or something. Everyone's dressed differently. 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:15.400 The place that you're seated as a defendant. It's like 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:18.400 you're turned an opposite way from everybody else. It's like 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:21.680 the architecture of the court room. It's a totally different world. 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.720 This fear all the world's of stage. It's like you're 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.560 out there on a stage as a rap artist, but 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:29.880 then you walk into a different room and you're not 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:31.800 on the stage anymore. Where it's still the stage and 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:35.680 the prosecutors on stage, and they're going to use their tools, 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:40.080 they're going to use those lyrics and we their artistry 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:40.600 around it. 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:44.320 In a way like music videos are brought into coot 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.480 cass to sort of show you could be you could 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:51.000 be like an extra part of that somebody's onsage or whatever, 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:53.800 be seen in a music video and then be sort 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:58.800 of implicated in the same crimes. They'll say you're in 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:05.000 the gang with them. And as we know, cameras are 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:08.960 everywhere now like we and we film everything, so it's 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:12.119 easier than ever to show that you know somebody or 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.280 you're in the same place as somebody. And so in 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:19.160 that way, the way we use technology, I guess see 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:21.679 getting people into a lot of trouble. I'm interested in 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.639 seeing in the future how AI plays into all this. 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:27.600 Imagine all the all the fake songs that they try 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:28.879 to enter into it into. 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:33.000 Okay, so do you think prosecutors are all worried about 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:36.200 public safety or is it purely theater? 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:44.320 The way that the way that it's been describes me 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.600 not not well. The way that Jay Z ever jay 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:51.080 Z put it, it is just like prosecutor, doesn't The 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:53.520 prosecutor is just in a job. It's just a ninety 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:57.640 five unlike public defenders, like who are you know? These 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:00.919 are like amazing lawyers are choosing to do like the 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:03.879 most difficult job. And we had many public public defenders 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:06.280 come up to us after the screenings and say, like, 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:08.679 you nailed it, You got it exactly right. This is 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.640 what I had these conversations, like we are public defenders 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:14.639 in New York and we had this exact conversation with 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:17.000 defendants every week and thank you. We just feel seen 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.760 for the first time. So like public defenders are like 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:24.520 these basically basically killer lawyers who are basically social workers 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:26.720 who are who are doing the best they can in 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:29.640 the system, which is totally as a David and alive situation. 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:33.240 But the prosecutors, this is it's a ninety five job. 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:35.119 Like their job is to convict if they can, if 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:38.479 they win, then then they get promoted, maybe eventually get 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:40.720 to be a DA. Maybe maybe you go into politics. 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.560 Uh Kamala Harris for example, like how do you get 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:47.480 to be that VP? You you earned your earned well, 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.320 you made your way there by climbing up the ladder 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:54.080 on what is basically like a corporate system. And so 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:56.440 to them, it doesn't matter if the tools available will 0:18:56.560 --> 0:19:00.399 use it, and so whether or not they care is 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:03.160 I think I'm not even brought into it. In order 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:05.159 for the criminal justice system to work, you have to 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:07.840 have attorneys who're going to just do the job of 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:11.440 defending whoever's right in front of them, regardless of guilt 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.360 or innocence, And so prosecutors are doing the same thing. 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:18.320 Who's next on the docket, Okay, my job is to convict. Okay, 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.200 so they're going to convict. I don't think the morality 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:23.880 of it even comes into the court system. It's such 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:27.040 a strange world. It doesn't matter if it's right or 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:30.880 wrong justice. It's not about justice. 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:34.359 I was wondering if you have any moments that stood 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:37.520 out with you from audience members who consume rap who 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:38.560 had no idea about this. 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:40.359 Maybe if there was a moment. 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:42.560 Where they were like, I thought that once that these 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:46.520 people were criminals in their lyrics, and this completely shed 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:47.400 light on all of that. 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:52.960 Yeah, you'd be shocked. I've seen total conversions happen, especially later. 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:55.960 What people who I would know before and after story 0:19:56.040 --> 0:20:00.280 is about oftentimes like parents of people who came people 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:03.159 from a different generation who just didn't even care to 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:06.840 understand hip hop, who thought one way before they watched 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:08.640 the film, and then just had a total one eighty 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.879 watching the film. And to me, it's kind of impossible 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:14.400 not to have that experience. I felt like we're going 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:16.840 into it with Kimba. It's like, of course, you could 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:18.280 make like an hour and a half doc on the 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:23.240 mac Phipps case, for sure, but he's had like twenty 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:27.720 different news specials and maybe more than that actually about him, 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:30.840 and people still haven't heard about what happened, and those 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:32.879 are new specials going out to millions and millions and 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:36.159 millions of people, and so it's like, you know, people 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:38.879 won't sit down and listen to this story in a 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:41.199 way that's just kind of giving you a talking head interview. 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:43.960 We had to make the documentary like a song and 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:45.920 kind of wrap you up into it, and that's how 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:48.119 you can come out the other side having a one 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.080 to eighty change. Because if you can truly see it 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:53.600 through Kemba's eyes, through the eyes of the artist, then 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:55.440 I don't know how you can see it the other way. 0:20:56.240 --> 0:21:07.399 More with Jason and Kimba after the break. Do you 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.080 think either of you do you think that the criminalization 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:13.639 of rap has implications beyond rap lyrics. 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:18.080 I think we've we've started to see it on social media, 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:22.320 just the idea that the things that you say could 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:25.480 either be silence taken down, or you know, it could 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:27.959 have people. I think we're all I think we're all 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:31.000 sort of being watched to a certain degree and being 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:37.360 censored to a certain degree. And I think rap right 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:41.480 now is just the sort of most extreme form of it, 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:45.920 and I feel like it's it's a sort of dystopian 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:48.720 way of seeing life. But I do think it's possible 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:50.440 that I can get that way for everyone. 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:53.960 Yeah, I think that's where tools are tested, is on 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:57.240 the most formal populations and then their scales. 0:21:57.720 --> 0:21:59.439 Yeah, that'd be so cool if you can see the 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.119 through line of as we speak, and then it's like, you. 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:05.320 Know, oh, actually, I feel like it would be crazy. 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:10.960 Knew Jim Crow had that impact where it didn't stop 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:16.520 mass incarceration, but people really knew about it more and 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:17.919 were like against it. 0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:19.600 It swung the consensus. 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:22.160 Yeah, sure, and that's important, Like that's the first step 0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:23.119 to so many things. 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:25.240 It's changing people's mindset about something. 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:28.639 And I also really think, even outside of all of 0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:31.800 the legal stuff, just the emphasis that this places on 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:34.840 the sophistication of rap, because rap is an art form. 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:37.040 Like the fact that these people are. 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:40.680