1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 2 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Imagine if artists were held criminally liable for the lines 3 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: they said or acts they portrayed while making. 4 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 2: Art, like if Jason Bateman was convicted for money laundering 5 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 2: for his role as Marty in the TV series Ozark. 6 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: Or if police hurt Carrie Underwood singing about taking a 7 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: Louisville slugger to the headlights of her Cheetah Man's car 8 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: and put out a warrant for her arrest. 9 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 2: As the ysl Rico trial in Atlanta continues, Rapper Young 10 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 2: Thug doesn't have to imagine happening tomorrow. 11 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: Rapper Young Thug and his co defendants in the ysl 12 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: Rico trial will be Young Thug is accused of leading 13 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: a violent street gang, and prosecutors are using his song 14 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: lyrics as evidence. 15 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 3: He is the one they're all afraid of. 16 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 4: He's the one that's King Swan. 17 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 2: But Young Thug isn't the first rapper to get caught 18 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 2: in the cross hairs of the weaponization of rap lyrics. 19 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 2: One of the earliest and most commonly cited cases is 20 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 2: the nineteen ninety one Foster case, where a Seventh Circuit 21 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 2: Appeals Court upheld the conviction of Derek Foster, whose prosecution 22 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: relied on rap lyrics he wrote about drugs and narcotics trafficking. 23 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 2: Another early high profile example was Snoop Dogg's nineteen ninety 24 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 2: three murder trial. 25 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:31,199 Speaker 1: We the jury and above and tile action. 26 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 3: Finally, defendant Calvin Brod is not guilty of the crime 27 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 3: of murder in the first degree. 28 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,559 Speaker 1: However, it was the people Versus Olgein case in nineteen 29 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: ninety four that arguably had the biggest influence on the 30 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: use of this tactic. In this case, Cesar Javier Olgein 31 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: and Francisco called ro Mora were convicted and the prosecution 32 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: used rap lyrics as evidence. 33 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 2: Prosecutors in the aforementioned cases held the same views as 34 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 2: Fanie Willis Holden County, Georgia's district attorneys. 35 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 5: Don't confess to climbs on rap lyrics if you do 36 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 5: not want them used, or at least get out of 37 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 5: my account. 38 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 2: These cases mark the beginning of a controversial legal trend 39 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 2: where rap lyrics were used as evidence in criminal trials, 40 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 2: sparking debates about racial stereotypes, First Amendment rights, and the 41 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 2: potential bias against rap music and its artists. I'm Eves 42 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 2: and I'm Katie. Today's episode Rhyme and Punishment. 43 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: A new documentary, As We Speak explores the weaponization of 44 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: rap lyrics in the legal system, shedding light on the 45 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: use of artistic expression as evidence in criminal trials. Directed 46 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: by Jason Harper and featuring hip hop artists Kimba as 47 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: a guide and character, the film delves into the ways 48 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: in which rap lyrics have been used in court, examining 49 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: the impact of this practice on the music industry and 50 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: its artists. 51 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 4: Hi Kenva Hi. 52 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 3: Kimva was going on Yes we Can Perfect, and we got. 53 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 2: A chance to catch up with Jason and Kimba to 54 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 2: talk to them about as we Speak and the implications 55 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 2: of criminalizing in art form. So the beginning of As 56 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 2: we Speak, we saw you Kimba in the archives looking 57 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 2: at the criminalization but also like the demonization of black 58 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 2: music from slave songs to blues to rock enroll and 59 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 2: now wrap. And I think going into the documentary, you 60 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 2: can feel like, oh, this is like a really new phenomenon, 61 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 2: especially being in Atlanta. We're seeing what's happening with the 62 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 2: but it's the act of policing black expression is really 63 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: quite old. So like, how did both of you feel 64 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 2: about that connection, that historical connection when you're making this 65 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 2: film and like unraveling all these details. 66 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that was one of the first scenes 67 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 5: in my mind that was really crystal clear. And it 68 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 5: started from when I found these Dutch slave trader journals 69 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 5: from sixteen seventy that said, we can hear the Africans 70 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 5: communicating on the slave ship on the Middle Passage that 71 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 5: they had written. We can hear them communicating, but we 72 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 5: don't know what they're saying. We don't understand, And that 73 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 5: to me sounded like exactly what was happening in courtrooms today. 74 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 5: And so I thought, if we went back and looked 75 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 5: at every single uniquely black genre from then all the 76 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,559 Speaker 5: way to today, how many other times did that happen? 77 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 5: And it turned out that didn't happen every single with 78 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 5: every single genre that the black community had had created. 79 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 5: And then it was no surprise that we're experiencing what 80 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 5: we're experiencing right now with hip hop. 81 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 3: Even with jazz, there wasn't there's no words the bay 82 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 3: and I jazz I was like, all right, what is 83 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:39,359 Speaker 3: this really about? 84 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 4: You know? 85 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 5: Yeah? 86 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 2: And I the quote we can hear what they're saying, 87 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 2: but we don't understand. And when people are in the 88 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 2: courtroom like oh, like the example of like making a killings, like, well, 89 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 2: clearly that means you're making a lot of money. Yeah, 90 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 2: But when you have a jury of maybe mostly white 91 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 2: people and a judge that's white, and a prosecutor who's white, 92 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 2: and you know, the big scary black man who said 93 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 2: he's making a killing, do you think it is like 94 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 2: really like misinterpretation or just like refusing like willful ignorance, 95 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 2: refusing to understand. 96 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 3: I think that's a really big question. Like I think 97 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 3: part of it is the idea of like they don't 98 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 3: respect us enough to think that we can speak in 99 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 3: metaphor that we can see it. They don't. They don't 100 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 3: see what we do is are And another part of 101 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 3: it is just how effective of a tool it is, 102 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 3: Like it doesn't even matter. It gets the job done, 103 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 3: and so they're going to use. 104 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 5: It, you know why. I try to understand, And the 105 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 5: answer for them is there's there's no reason too it's working, 106 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 5: then don't question it. 107 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like it's kind of like a magic 108 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 2: bullet when you get into the courtroom and you hear 109 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: these lyrics because when you like, when it's not over 110 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 2: a beat, when just like some you know, uptight. 111 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 4: White guys really get your life, they really kill the 112 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 4: folks out here right right right. 113 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: And that came up in the film when they were 114 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: talking about the difference they were doing the study and 115 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: reading the differences between one genre of music and how 116 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: that came out and versus how people were able to 117 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: understand and then a different genre of music. 118 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 2: Can y'all talk about the Batman Blunder study? Describe it 119 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 2: and then describe like the not so surprising results. 120 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 5: Yeah. The study was done by a professor named Adam 121 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 5: Dunbar who took the same set of lyrics, the same 122 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 5: lyric which is from a song called Badman's Plunder. Well 123 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 5: early when he evening out rolling around, I was even 124 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 5: a kind of mean a shot to get the d 125 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 5: down from nineteen sixty like the whole kind of country 126 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 5: folk song. But he showed it to people, and he 127 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 5: showed it to three different groups. One group he said 128 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 5: that these lyrics are wrapped, one group he said these 129 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 5: lyrics are country, and one group he said these lyrics 130 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 5: are heavy metal. And depending on the group, they all 131 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 5: interpreted the same set of lyrics differently in relation to 132 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 5: whether or not they felt that the singer or the 133 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 5: artist behind the lyrics was more prone to violence. Meant 134 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 5: what they said literally is supposed to figuratively, et cetera. 135 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 5: And Kim I can tell you kind of what the 136 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 5: result of that was. 137 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's exactly what you would think it 138 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 3: would be. People people thought that when when they thought 139 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 3: the lyrics were by black artists, they were hip hop artists, 140 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 3: they saw it as more violent, they saw they saw 141 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 3: the art as less of an art like they thought 142 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 3: the artist was more likely to actually do those things. 143 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 3: And it just speaks to the subconscious biases that people 144 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 3: have and how that can play in the courtroom. It's 145 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 3: like when when you're reading the lyrics to a jury 146 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 3: that see, you know, the big scary black man, or 147 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 3: a judge that doesn't see himself in the person, like 148 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 3: he doesn't see like his grandkids, his nephew in the person. 149 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 3: And when the lyrics are sometimes the only evidence you 150 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 3: get to see how effective it is, it's still extremely effective. 151 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 4: You know. 152 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, It's like you're always trying to convince people who 153 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: see you as an other who see you as an 154 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: outsider of your humanity because it so often takes like 155 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:40,239 Speaker 1: exactly what you said of I see something of myself 156 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: in you are something that I know that I can 157 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: relate to that is more human, which often ends up 158 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: being a family member before somebody is able to even 159 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: form or any sort of connection or empathy. That becomes 160 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: very clear in this case, right, Yeah, And. 161 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 5: That's empirical too, like in the UK, especially if they've 162 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 5: done studies with judges and studies that measure what type 163 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 5: of sentencing, the harshness of the sentencing with white judges, 164 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 5: with white accused people have been accused of crimes versus 165 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 5: black people who have been accused of crimes, and there's 166 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 5: a huge disparity with as you might expect, the the 167 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 5: young black men who are charged of the same crimes 168 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 5: are receiving much heavier punishments. And it's exactly because of that. 169 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 5: There's not there's not a built in empathy there. And 170 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 5: then there's of course, you know, four hundred plus years 171 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 5: of institutionalized racism and literal institutions, but also just programmed 172 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:49,719 Speaker 5: into the culture that they're not aware of or theoretically 173 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 5: they're not aware of that that's kind of programmed into 174 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 5: the way that they see the world and see people. 175 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 5: So it's a it's a lot to fight against an 176 00:09:57,559 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 5: almost impossible to fight when you land in that. 177 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 6: We'll be back with Jason and Kimba after the break. 178 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 2: What do you think it is that it makes it 179 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 2: hard for people to separate the art from the artists 180 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 2: with rat that's. 181 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 3: A complicated thing too. The idea is to make people 182 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 3: feel like you're real, you know, like like if we 183 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 3: don't think an artists is real, then we sort of 184 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 3: respect them less. And it's not really the same in movies, 185 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 3: you know, we know that there's a director, we know 186 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 3: that somebody wrote the script, and other art forms not 187 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 3: really the same. But and then even in other genres, 188 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 3: it's not such a focal point. 189 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: Did you find that you had any sort of deepening 190 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,719 Speaker 1: of your love and care for the art or for 191 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 1: all of the people who came before you in hearing 192 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: these stories about people who were unished so wrongfully. 193 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 3: Totally, it's difficult to talk to Max Fiffs from your story. 194 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 6: Mac McKinley Phipps Jr. Was convicted of manslaughter in two 195 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 6: thousand and one after a prosecutor. 196 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 3: Not fixed, you know, empathetic, you know, like somebody that 197 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 3: lost twenty one years of his life for a crime 198 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 3: he didn't commit and somebody even confessed to it. It's like, 199 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 3: that's heartbreaking. And I learned that of course, like these 200 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 3: big cases, big profile cases like young thugs, are important, 201 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 3: and but there's so many other people that aren't like 202 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 3: huge profile cases that might be in a small city, 203 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 3: might be doesn't have a million dollar lawyer, doesn't have 204 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 3: the people to speak up for them, that they don't 205 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 3: really have a chance when when this magic bullet like 206 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 3: you said, is introduced, Uh, it could be the owns. 207 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 3: Like I said before, it could be the only evidence 208 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 3: that they use, and you can still you can still 209 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 3: get put away for it. 210 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 2: Uh. 211 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 3: And so it definitely deepened my passion. I was just like, 212 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 3: we should be able to say, you know, we should 213 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 3: be able to create the art that we that we 214 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 3: want to create. 215 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 2: You know, and with mac Fipps, they spliced together lyrics 216 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 2: from two different songs. There's no physical evidence. So his 217 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: really hit me. It just seemed like just so deeply unfair. 218 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 2: It was like a very visceral reaction I had. Do 219 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 2: you decide not to say certain things in your songs 220 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 2: based on just like the climate of how lyrics have 221 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 2: been weaponized, not at all. 222 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 3: I think since learning all of this, I've gone even 223 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 3: deeper into uh, you know, using metaphor just to show 224 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 3: how ridiculous it all this, you know, just to really 225 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 3: exercise that right. But yeah, I feel like once you 226 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 3: start to sort of censor yourself and not just water 227 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 3: down the art and people don't really want to hear that, 228 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 3: I feel like people could, people could tell when you're 229 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 3: not being your true self. 230 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 4: Mm hmmm, you're like thinking about how others are gonna Yeah, yeah, 231 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 4: watching your back and all that stuff. 232 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know you went to the Bronx Chicago, Atlanta, La, London. 233 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 2: I don't even think about rap when I think about London. 234 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 6: Oh really, I do. 235 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 2: They fun. 236 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 6: Listen to a lot of. 237 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 4: Uk up Atlanta's Supremacist Child. But my question. 238 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,959 Speaker 2: Is, because you we saw that lyrics have been used 239 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 2: in like over seven hundred cases, and those are just 240 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 2: the ones that you know haven't been pleted out. Do 241 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 2: we see this same phenomenon happening in countries that are 242 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 2: a majority black, for instance, like Nigeria or Jamaica. Is 243 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 2: it the same type of thing going on, or is 244 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 2: it like you know, United States, United Kingdom. 245 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 5: I shot a documentary in Senegal which is about about 246 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 5: the student riots that are happening at the only public 247 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 5: university there, and there's this really vibrant hip hop movement, 248 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 5: underground hip hop movement that was happening, which is like 249 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 5: the main place that the students were able to vocalize 250 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 5: their descent in a way that could spread. And it 251 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 5: was very kind of anti anti the government forces that 252 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 5: were pressing them, but it's a for them. It was 253 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 5: a much more kind of direct physical thing, like it's 254 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 5: not like we're going to lock you up three lyrics, 255 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 5: We're going to beat you or kill you. And so 256 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 5: that it's difficult because we're what Kim and I are 257 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 5: kind of exploring in this documentary is the criminal justice system, 258 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 5: which has its own issues obviously, but in other places 259 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 5: in Africa, it's a very it's a very different pl dynamic. 260 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: There are a lot more insidious things that people can 261 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: do with technology. So do you see any sort of 262 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: anything around technology coming up in these cases that has 263 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: been interesting to you? 264 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 5: When evidence is brought into a courtroom, everything is stripped 265 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 5: away except for the words and so they just used 266 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 5: the lyrics in this case like the way the music 267 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 5: was created or any It's like it's almost like they 268 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 5: are the technology that's flessing things together and it becomes 269 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 5: this really kind of I don't know what the word is, 270 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 5: like lunite process, where you're just like, I'm going to 271 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 5: take citors and cut this out and put it together 272 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 5: with that and say that that's what happened. And they're 273 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 5: talking to juries, which they're kind of making it for 274 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 5: the lowest common denominator. The court room is just a 275 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 5: totally different place than reality, and we saw that here 276 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 5: and we also saw them then where the theatricality of 277 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 5: it is like crank to eleven and they're wearing wigs. 278 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 5: The judge is wearing, you know, a big gray wig 279 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 5: like from the seventeen hundreds or something. Everyone's dressed differently. 280 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 5: The place that you're seated as a defendant. It's like 281 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 5: you're turned an opposite way from everybody else. It's like 282 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 5: the architecture of the court room. It's a totally different world. 283 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 5: This fear all the world's of stage. It's like you're 284 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 5: out there on a stage as a rap artist, but 285 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 5: then you walk into a different room and you're not 286 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 5: on the stage anymore. Where it's still the stage and 287 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 5: the prosecutors on stage, and they're going to use their tools, 288 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 5: they're going to use those lyrics and we their artistry 289 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 5: around it. 290 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 3: In a way like music videos are brought into coot 291 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 3: cass to sort of show you could be you could 292 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 3: be like an extra part of that somebody's onsage or whatever, 293 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 3: be seen in a music video and then be sort 294 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 3: of implicated in the same crimes. They'll say you're in 295 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 3: the gang with them. And as we know, cameras are 296 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 3: everywhere now like we and we film everything, so it's 297 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 3: easier than ever to show that you know somebody or 298 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 3: you're in the same place as somebody. And so in 299 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 3: that way, the way we use technology, I guess see 300 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 3: getting people into a lot of trouble. I'm interested in 301 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 3: seeing in the future how AI plays into all this. 302 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 3: Imagine all the all the fake songs that they try 303 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 3: to enter into it into. 304 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 2: Okay, so do you think prosecutors are all worried about 305 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 2: public safety or is it purely theater? 306 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 5: The way that the way that it's been describes me 307 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 5: not not well. The way that Jay Z ever jay 308 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 5: Z put it, it is just like prosecutor, doesn't The 309 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 5: prosecutor is just in a job. It's just a ninety 310 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 5: five unlike public defenders, like who are you know? These 311 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 5: are like amazing lawyers are choosing to do like the 312 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 5: most difficult job. And we had many public public defenders 313 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 5: come up to us after the screenings and say, like, 314 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 5: you nailed it, You got it exactly right. This is 315 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 5: what I had these conversations, like we are public defenders 316 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 5: in New York and we had this exact conversation with 317 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 5: defendants every week and thank you. We just feel seen 318 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 5: for the first time. So like public defenders are like 319 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 5: these basically basically killer lawyers who are basically social workers 320 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 5: who are who are doing the best they can in 321 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 5: the system, which is totally as a David and alive situation. 322 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 5: But the prosecutors, this is it's a ninety five job. 323 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 5: Like their job is to convict if they can, if 324 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,479 Speaker 5: they win, then then they get promoted, maybe eventually get 325 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 5: to be a DA. Maybe maybe you go into politics. 326 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 5: Uh Kamala Harris for example, like how do you get 327 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 5: to be that VP? You you earned your earned well, 328 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 5: you made your way there by climbing up the ladder 329 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 5: on what is basically like a corporate system. And so 330 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 5: to them, it doesn't matter if the tools available will 331 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 5: use it, and so whether or not they care is 332 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 5: I think I'm not even brought into it. In order 333 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 5: for the criminal justice system to work, you have to 334 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 5: have attorneys who're going to just do the job of 335 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 5: defending whoever's right in front of them, regardless of guilt 336 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 5: or innocence, And so prosecutors are doing the same thing. 337 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 5: Who's next on the docket, Okay, my job is to convict. Okay, 338 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 5: so they're going to convict. I don't think the morality 339 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 5: of it even comes into the court system. It's such 340 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 5: a strange world. It doesn't matter if it's right or 341 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 5: wrong justice. It's not about justice. 342 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: I was wondering if you have any moments that stood 343 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: out with you from audience members who consume rap who 344 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: had no idea about this. 345 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 6: Maybe if there was a moment. 346 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: Where they were like, I thought that once that these 347 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: people were criminals in their lyrics, and this completely shed 348 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 1: light on all of that. 349 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, you'd be shocked. I've seen total conversions happen, especially later. 350 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 5: What people who I would know before and after story 351 00:19:56,040 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 5: is about oftentimes like parents of people who came people 352 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 5: from a different generation who just didn't even care to 353 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 5: understand hip hop, who thought one way before they watched 354 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 5: the film, and then just had a total one eighty 355 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 5: watching the film. And to me, it's kind of impossible 356 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 5: not to have that experience. I felt like we're going 357 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 5: into it with Kimba. It's like, of course, you could 358 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 5: make like an hour and a half doc on the 359 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 5: mac Phipps case, for sure, but he's had like twenty 360 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 5: different news specials and maybe more than that actually about him, 361 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 5: and people still haven't heard about what happened, and those 362 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 5: are new specials going out to millions and millions and 363 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 5: millions of people, and so it's like, you know, people 364 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 5: won't sit down and listen to this story in a 365 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 5: way that's just kind of giving you a talking head interview. 366 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 5: We had to make the documentary like a song and 367 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 5: kind of wrap you up into it, and that's how 368 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 5: you can come out the other side having a one 369 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 5: to eighty change. Because if you can truly see it 370 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 5: through Kemba's eyes, through the eyes of the artist, then 371 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 5: I don't know how you can see it the other way. 372 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 2: More with Jason and Kimba after the break. Do you 373 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 2: think either of you do you think that the criminalization 374 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 2: of rap has implications beyond rap lyrics. 375 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 3: I think we've we've started to see it on social media, 376 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 3: just the idea that the things that you say could 377 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 3: either be silence taken down, or you know, it could 378 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:27,959 Speaker 3: have people. I think we're all I think we're all 379 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 3: sort of being watched to a certain degree and being 380 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:37,360 Speaker 3: censored to a certain degree. And I think rap right 381 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 3: now is just the sort of most extreme form of it, 382 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 3: and I feel like it's it's a sort of dystopian 383 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 3: way of seeing life. But I do think it's possible 384 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 3: that I can get that way for everyone. 385 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's where tools are tested, is on 386 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 5: the most formal populations and then their scales. 387 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, that'd be so cool if you can see the 388 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 2: through line of as we speak, and then it's like, you. 389 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 4: Know, oh, actually, I feel like it would be crazy. 390 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 2: Knew Jim Crow had that impact where it didn't stop 391 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 2: mass incarceration, but people really knew about it more and 392 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 2: were like against it. 393 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 6: It swung the consensus. 394 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, and that's important, Like that's the first step 395 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: to so many things. 396 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 6: It's changing people's mindset about something. 397 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 1: And I also really think, even outside of all of 398 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: the legal stuff, just the emphasis that this places on 399 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: the sophistication of rap, because rap is an art form. 400 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 6: Like the fact that these people are. 401 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: Taking these lyrics and misconstruing them, I'm like, are you 402 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: are you thinking? 403 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 6: Do you have a brain at all? 404 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: But I think it just shows how so many people 405 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 1: try to minimize the artistry of rap and what it 406 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 1: does for people, and how it's poetry, and how it 407 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 1: can be used in so many different forms, and how 408 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: it has a legacy in so many of these other 409 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: genres that Black people ate it that we're specifically about 410 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: resilience and specifically about resistance, and this is like y'all 411 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 1: doing all of this for some rap. Clearly it's something 412 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: that is impactful to people. Clearly they understand the power 413 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: of it. 414 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it reminds me of David Banner speaking in front 415 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 2: of Congress or he was saying. 416 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 7: How statistics will never show the positive side of rap 417 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 7: because statistics don't reflect what you don't do, if you 418 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 7: don't commit a murder or a crime. 419 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 2: When you see people going so hard at a particular 420 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 2: art form, whether it's rap, whether it's you know, books 421 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 2: that talk about racism. 422 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 6: It's like you're telling on yourself. 423 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 4: You're telling on yourself. 424 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 425 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 2: Now it's time for Roll Credits, the segment where we 426 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 2: give credit to a person, place, or thing that we've 427 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 2: encountered during the week, and we have our guests Jason 428 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 2: and Kimba joining us. But first, Eves, who are what 429 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 2: would you like to give credit to today? 430 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: I want to give credit to black hair stylists. 431 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 6: They are miracle workers. They are sent from God. 432 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: I have had very interesting experience, it's very varied experiences 433 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: with black hair stylists, and honestly, I've been burned like 434 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: literally and figuratively literally and figuratively child So when you 435 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: find someone who actually does well, it feels so affirming. 436 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,360 Speaker 1: But also just in general, I'm thankful for black hairstylists, 437 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: Like it's something that is a profession, but like also 438 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 1: just has like a deep familial and intimate history in 439 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 1: black life. I was thinking about how when I was 440 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: a child, I went to the neighborhood person who took 441 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: that hot comb, put it on the stove, and then 442 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,479 Speaker 1: put it on my head. And I didn't really care 443 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: for the experience, but you know it's love, like it's 444 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: loved somebody put in their hands in your head and 445 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: like you know, doing this work, in this magic. 446 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 6: So I really shout out to black hair stylists. 447 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: I really would love to give credit to them doing 448 00:24:59,560 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: your thing. 449 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 2: There we go, Jason, who are what would you like 450 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 2: to give credit to? 451 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 5: I will just give credit to my two year old 452 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 5: daughter just because she Yeah, life, this is crazy. Just look 453 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 5: at this human being and just everything either it doesn't 454 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 5: matter or becomes clear or everything matters in a way 455 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 5: that can be just accepted. And so yeah, just watching 456 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 5: her sleep this morning. Maybe thank yeah, thankful, thank for her. 457 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 4: How about you, Kim? Who are what would you like 458 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 4: to give credit to? 459 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 3: You know what, I'm going to give credit to my boy, 460 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 3: my leak Jonathan. 461 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 5: Oh. 462 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 3: This movie literally would not have been possible without Paramount 463 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 3: and he he saw through the whole thing. 464 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,360 Speaker 5: He was on the ground with a pod project wouldn't. 465 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 2: Be possible without all right, all right, Malik Johnson, we 466 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 2: see you. I would like to give credit to the 467 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 2: Georgia Archives. They have a lot of information about different 468 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 2: Atlanta history, Georgia history, and there's so much stuff like 469 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 2: in boxes in archives that if you never go look 470 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 2: at them, and if someone doesn't like take them out 471 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 2: of those boxes, the general public will never know these stories. 472 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 2: And I was reminded of about that when I saw 473 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 2: kimbat in the archives looking at the different histories of 474 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 2: black music, and so it was just a reminder to 475 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,880 Speaker 2: like visit your local archives, see what they got going on, 476 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 2: even if you don't consider yourself a researcher or academic, Like, 477 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 2: it's for everybody. Your taxes pay for it anyway, so 478 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 2: go hit them up. So how can folks keep up 479 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 2: with y'all? 480 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 5: The film premie Years in New York's New York Streing 481 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 5: February twentieth, and then it comes out on Paramount Plus 482 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 5: on the February twenty seven. And yeah, that's the way 483 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 5: to reach me. And it's been great to see people 484 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 5: see back of the problem. It's just on Instagram at 485 00:26:58,640 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 5: jam Harper for me. 486 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, hit me on any social media platform at Kimberland, 487 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:07,360 Speaker 3: come stay with us up. 488 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you so much, thanks for joining us. 489 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 2: I really enjoyed this conversation in the documentary, of course. 490 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: Yes, looking forward to more people watching it and learning 491 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: from it. 492 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 3: Thank you guys, this is fun. 493 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 5: Thanks for having us. Thank you, Bye base. 494 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: If this conversation has sparked your interest, we encourage you 495 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: to watch As We Speak, which comes out on February 496 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: twenty seventh on Paramount Plus. On Theme is a production 497 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. This episode was written 498 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: by Eves, Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. It was edited and 499 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us on Instagram. 500 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 6: At on Theme Show. You can also send us. 501 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 1: An email at hello at on Theme dot show. Head 502 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: to on Theme dot Show to check out the show 503 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 504 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 505 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: favorite shows.