1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Everybody who has kids has a story about their childcare situation, 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: either how much they used to pay for childcare or 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 1: how much they're currently paying for childcare, or the struggle 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: to get on a wait list for childcare, or when 5 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: I meet people who are pregnant, I'm always asking them 6 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 1: the question have you thought about childcare yet? From Bloomberg 7 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: News and iHeartRadio, it's the big take. I'm Westcasova today. 8 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: Why has childcare become such a mess? If you're a 9 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: working parent, finding childcare is almost certainly a source of 10 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: stress in your life. Our child runner is actually not 11 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: able to do more than for days a week. We 12 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: are making it work because I am a student, so 13 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: I'm able to look after him. If I was just 14 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: the only one pain her childcare costs, it would be 15 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: eighty percent of my earnings. Both my wife and I work, 16 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: so we had to find someone to look after him 17 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: during the day. We definitely need to earn more money 18 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: in order for her, hopefully to go three days per 19 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: week to the nursery. Six a disgrace. It's like disencourages 20 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,839 Speaker 1: women going back to work. I think it's it's actually appalling. 21 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: We can manage putting him in two days a week. 22 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: Ideally we would like to put him in three days 23 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: a week, but because of the cost of childcare at 24 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: the moment, we physically can't afford it. Those are parents 25 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: in London voicing commonly heard complaints. The childcare dilemma is 26 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: especially acute in the UK. Bloomberg reporter Olivia Canodia Hulu 27 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: has been covering growing discontent from parents demanding the government 28 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: make childcare more affordable. Thousands of parents did this massive process, 29 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: saying we're completely fed up with the system, we're taken 30 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: for granted and we're being the to buy this government. 31 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: Of course, the same is true here in the US, 32 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: and that's where we start today. Simon Workman, you've heard 33 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: him there at the top of the show, is co 34 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: founder of pre Natal to Five Fiscal Strategies. It consults 35 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: with US states and childcare and he wrote a widely 36 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: used study for the Center for American Progress called the 37 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: True Cost of High Quality Childcare across the United States. 38 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 1: We really do have a bifurcated system here in the US, 39 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: where the childcare system works for some people and it 40 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: doesn't work for a lot of others. It is a 41 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: privately run system to the most part, and so then 42 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: it's not surprising that the people can who can afford 43 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: to pay for it are able to find a chldcare 44 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: system that works for them. You know, if you have 45 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: significant income, you can find childcare because supply exists, because 46 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 1: supplies responding to the that you actually are in a 47 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: market where you can afford to pay for it. That 48 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: works great for a small section of society, but there 49 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: is a huge part of the population for whom it 50 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: does not work that way. The data out there shows 51 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: that about sixty five percent of children under five have 52 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: the way it's called it's all available parents in the workforce, 53 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: which is to say, you know, if you're a two 54 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: parent household or a single parent household, all available parents 55 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: are in the workforce. So for those children, they need 56 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: to be in care somewhere. It is at a time 57 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: when families they're not their highest earning potential. Generally, people 58 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: are having children sort of you know, at earlier stages 59 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: in their career, so they're not making the most money 60 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: they're ever going to make. And at the same time, 61 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: suddenly you're being told now you need to pay the 62 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: equivalent of a new mortgage every month to pay for 63 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: that child to go to care so that you can work. 64 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: And by the way, the system we have set up 65 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: is that if you decide to step out of the 66 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: workforce instead, there are financial repercussions for that that go 67 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: even beyond that year, the lost earning potential, not adding 68 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: anything into a retirement plan. Taking a few years out 69 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: of the workforce means that when you come back in, 70 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: you're generally at a lower level, and that falls predominantly 71 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: on the mothers, on women, so has a huge impact 72 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: on the female workforce. So when you look at that 73 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 1: and you start saying, Okay, how do you pay for childcare? 74 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: It becomes clear why the market doesn't really work because 75 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: families become extremely price sensitive because as much as they 76 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: want the highest quality, they are faced with really restricted 77 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: budgets and you know, only able to afford so much 78 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: for childcare, and that of course affects the demand side. 79 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: If people can only afford to pay a little bit 80 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: for childcare, that means low wages for those providing it 81 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: and fewer people willing to do that work right. The 82 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: US Treasury put out a report last year saying that 83 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: this is a market that does not work because you 84 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: have this problem where families need childcare, want childcare, so 85 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: there is a demand, but what they can afford to 86 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: pay for childcare is not what it truly costs for childcare. 87 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: And that was what you know, I wrote about in 88 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: this report last year, was to really get into what 89 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: does it actually cost to provide high quality childcare because 90 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: at the moment, you have this system where a family 91 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: comes and says, you know, this is what I can afford, 92 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: and the provider is faced with either saying no, we 93 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: have higher rates than that, and then they will be empty. 94 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: Apart from in these high income communities, right because most 95 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: people can't afford it, or they lower their rates, and 96 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 1: if they lower their rates to that market rate, the 97 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: amount of revenue that is available to pay teachers is minimal, 98 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: and that's why you end up with poverty level wages 99 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: very little benefits for teachers. So, I mean, you mentioned 100 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: that in your report. You try to put figures on 101 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: this to try to calculate the true class of childcare, 102 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 1: and that was one of the things that I found 103 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: most eye opening, is when you really just kind of 104 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: broke down the coast of what it takes to care 105 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: for a child in various settings. Numbers are really bleak. 106 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: They are. I mean, you know, when people ask me 107 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: about why childcare is so expensive, one of my answers 108 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: is always to say it should be even more expensive. 109 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: The issue is not that families need to be paying 110 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: for that. We know that families can't afford to pay 111 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: any more for childcare, but that if you actually break 112 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: down what it costs to provide care for children, when 113 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: you pay teachers, well, the cost is way beyond what 114 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: people can afford. It doesn't take too long to sort 115 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: of think it through and say, you know, if you 116 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: have an infant classroom with eight children in there, even 117 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: if everyone's paying your thirteen fourteen hundred dollars a month, 118 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: once you start breaking it down and pay for the 119 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: building and everything, there is not that much left over 120 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: for salaries. It's a labor intensive industry. When you think 121 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: about what do you pay for a babysitter right now, 122 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: when you go out for an evening on an hourly basis, 123 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: and think about what an early childhood teacher is making, 124 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: there is a huge disparity. Our research has shown that 125 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: about sixty to seventy percent of the expenses of a 126 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: program our personnel. The other sort of thirty percent or 127 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 1: so goes to maybe you know your rent utilities are 128 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: around ten percent, and then there's materials and food. But 129 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: think about it, if you're paying thirteen hundred dollars a 130 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: month for infantcare, you can have maybe eight children in 131 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: that infant classroom. You're getting about ten ten five hundred 132 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: dollars potential revenue on a monthly basis. Now, if you 133 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: take that seventy percent and say, okay, seventy percent of 134 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: that is going to salaries. Okay, So now you've got 135 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: sixty seven hundred dollars a month that can go to 136 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: cover salaries and benefits and all of the required taxes 137 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: that you have to pay for the teachers in that classroom. 138 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: And then when you break it down for that classroom, 139 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: most people having their kids in childcare for more than 140 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: forty hours a week, so that program has to be 141 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: staffed for fifty hours a week, and you have to 142 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: have two teachers in that classroom because you know, for 143 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: eight infants you need two teachers. That is what is 144 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: necessary for health and safety and you know developmentally appropriate care. 145 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: You quite quickly get down those numbers and there's about 146 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: fourteen dollars an hour left over to cover salary, benefits, 147 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: taxes for each individual teacher, which is below the fifteen 148 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: dollars sort of minimum that some states are trying to 149 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: move to. But even that fourteen dollars, you know, once 150 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: you take off taxes, once you take off benefits as well, 151 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: you start to see how tight it is for programs 152 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: to make ends meet. And that is based on me 153 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: talking about thirteen hundred dollars a month right for infancare. 154 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: A lot of families cannot afford even that thirteen hundred 155 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: dollars a month. And that's right. When you flip the 156 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: lands around and look at thirteen hundred dollars a month 157 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 1: compared to media and income, that is a sizeable proportion 158 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: of a family's monthly income. Absolutely, And so when you 159 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 1: talk about the federal government recommends that affordable childcare should 160 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: be around seven percent of your income, but you know, 161 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: we know at the moment that families are paying twenty 162 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: thirty percent of their income on childcare. And so you 163 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: look at these equation and you say, on the one hand, 164 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: teachers are not making enough money and they need to 165 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: make more money. On the other hand, families are already 166 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: paying a significant share of their income, they can't afford 167 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: to pay more. This is the classic issue of the 168 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: broken market that we have. Your report also identifies some solutions. 169 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: What are some of the ways to fix what you 170 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: call this Baroken equation. Ultimately, it's this problem of having 171 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: a what is arguably a public good that childcare is 172 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: that is currently predominantly privately funded. So you have a 173 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 1: public good that's privately funded means that there is not 174 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: enough public money in the system. We are relying on 175 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: private dollars, mostly families, to pay for this, and so 176 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: we have to change the thinking in this country to 177 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: realize that taking care of young children is not solely 178 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: the responsibility of families. Once a child turns five or six, 179 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: we sort of decide it's our responsibility a society to 180 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: educate them and to care for them, you know, in schools. 181 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 1: But this idea that that doesn't happen before that age 182 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: has got to start changing. We talk about a few 183 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: different options. One of the policy solutions is to increase 184 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: the amount of money and individual provider gets when they 185 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: serve a child with public funding. Right now, public funding 186 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: levels are set based on that market rate. The market 187 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: rate is not actually the true cost of care. So 188 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: states and the federal government should be setting subsidy rates 189 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 1: based on what it actually costs to provide care. But 190 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: we also need to be providing that support to more families. 191 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: In most states right now, if you earn less than 192 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: thirty thousand dollars for a family of four, you qualify, 193 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: but if you earn more than thirty thousand dollars, you 194 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: don't qualify for subsidy. We need to increase the subsidy rates, 195 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: increase the amount of provider can get. We also need 196 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: to increase the number of families who are eligible for 197 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,719 Speaker 1: public funding and actually get that money directly to the 198 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: childcare providers and into the pockets of the childcate teachers. 199 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: So I can hear some people saying, oh, sure, that's 200 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: an easy fix, just have the states give more money. 201 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: But a lot of states are facing the budget restrictions 202 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: that we all know about. The academy is not the 203 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: greatest rate now, so where does that money come from 204 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: and what's the return on that investment. We are seeing 205 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: states look at different options, some of them looking at 206 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: using new revenue streams such as tax on marijuana or 207 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 1: sports betting, you know, to get some more money into 208 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: the system that's often used to target specific initiatives like 209 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: a universal PreK program for instance. The amount of money 210 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: that's really needed for the system, though it is so large, 211 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: it really needs a federal investment because ultimately the states 212 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: who are trying to balance their budgets every year, you know, 213 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: are really struggling with that. The president put in and 214 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: build back better. A huge investment at the order of 215 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 1: about four hundred billion dollars, you know, was the sort 216 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: of idea of thinking about that amount of money that 217 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: needed to go into the system. We would make the 218 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: case that it is worth it because of this significant 219 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,559 Speaker 1: return on investment at multiple levels. There is a return 220 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: on investment that's related to children. When children have high 221 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: quality early learning experiences, they go into kindergarten more ready 222 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: to learn, and there's a whole series of research that shows, 223 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: you know, then they're more likely to graduate school and 224 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: go on to college and have higher incomes, right, which 225 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: returns a lot to society. You also have the impact 226 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: on the current workforce who don't have to drop out 227 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 1: of the workforce, don't have to have interruptions to their 228 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: career because they have reliable childcare. And you have the 229 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: direct impact of thousands of childcare teachers right now making 230 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: poverty level wages. If you funded this system at a 231 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: much more robust way, those teachers would see a huge 232 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: raise and they are spending it in the economy today. 233 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: They are buying shoes for their kids, they are buying 234 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: food for their kids, so there is a huge return 235 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: and investment immediately the tax revenues when you boost the 236 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: income of those workers. There's been a lot of research 237 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: over the time to actually quantify all of those numbers, 238 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: and ultimately the data shows that for every dollar you 239 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: invest in early childhood you are getting a return of 240 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: between seven to twelve dollars for every single dollar you invest, 241 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: even with the interest rates going up, that is a 242 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: return most investors would take. This is a no brainer 243 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: in many ways of where you should be investing money. 244 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: There is proven research to show the impact it has. 245 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: The impact is short term and long term, so it 246 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: really is something we should be prioritizing investments in. Simon Workman, 247 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: thanks so much for talking with me today. Thanks why 248 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: it's great to be with you when we come back. 249 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: How the UK is trying to make childcare more affordable. 250 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: The problem Simon workman talked about in the US are 251 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: also true elsewhere in the UK. Angry working parents have 252 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: pressured the government to act, and reporter Olivia Canardia Hulu 253 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: is covering that story. One thing that really illustrates it 254 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: well was that there was this protest and Halloween last 255 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: year were basically thousands of parents, but particularly mums across 256 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: the country did this massive protest saying we're completely fed 257 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: up with the system, We're taken for granted and we're 258 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: being neglected by this government. The foundation of that was 259 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: just because childcare costs are so incredibly expensive that it's 260 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: having an impact on people's lives, on the jobs that 261 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: they take, the hours that they work, and all these things. 262 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: Unlike say the US, which we were talking about just 263 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: a little bit ago, there is a fairly well developed 264 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: system of subsidies for families to get childcare, but it 265 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: doesn't quite go all the way. Yeah, so if we 266 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: look at the system at the moment, well before the 267 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: last budget, parents are three to four year old's gotten 268 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: a certain amount of free childcare hours. But the catch 269 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: with that is that it's working parents, and the definition 270 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: is that both parents to be working at least sixteen 271 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: nails a week for the minimum wage, but that cuts 272 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: out a certain number of people if one of the 273 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: parents can't afford to work because of childcare costs. So 274 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: it kind of gets into this vicious cycles. While in 275 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: theory this is meant to encourage people back to work, 276 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: for some people they won't have that choice, So that's 277 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: why people at the lower end of the income spectrum 278 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: or often cut out. So when it comes like the 279 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: bottom earners of families, only around twenty percent of those 280 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: are eligible for this particular childcare benefit. There is just 281 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: this big question mark about what you do if you 282 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: are in that situation, if you're not eligible for subsidies, 283 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: can't afford to work more, but you're still having to 284 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: somehow find childcare, which is ridiculously expensive. There's been one 285 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: calculation that there are eight different systems and eight different 286 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: subsidies potentially that parents can access, and the money isn't 287 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: nearly enough to cover the cost of those subsidies, which 288 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: means that nurseries then have to raise prices for the 289 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: children that aren't on subsidies. If that makes sense. It's 290 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: fair to say that a lot of people are said 291 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: the system is pre dysfunctional, can you give an idea 292 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: of just how much it cars like work percentage of 293 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: household's income would go to childcare depending on how much 294 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: money you bring in the Organization for Economic Corporation and Development. 295 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: What they found by their analysis is that the UK 296 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: is one of the most expensive countries and when you 297 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: take an average family, as they calculated, it's thirty percent 298 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: of people's incomes. And so what's what that means for 299 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: some people say, it's more than their mortgages, it's more 300 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: than their housing cost. If you're thinking about having a child, 301 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: then it's just a really really massive financial decision in 302 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: the UK. And as you've been covering this, you've been 303 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: writing a lot about how a lot of this falls 304 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: and women who want or need to get into the 305 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: workforce and yet find that childcare makes it impossible for 306 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: them to work. Yeah, So to give you a sense, 307 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: Pregnant and Screwed, which is this really vocal charity which 308 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: do a little work in this, They did a survey 309 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: and they found that around three quarters of mothers who 310 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: use childcare say that it doesn't make economic sense for 311 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: them to work. So there was this one nursing student 312 00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: I was speaking to and her partner is also a 313 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 1: National health service and for complicated reasons, basically, she didn't 314 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 1: get access to certain subsidies and so childcare was just 315 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: like ridiculously expensive, and her partner was having to work 316 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 1: these kind of crazy hours on the weekends on nights 317 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: to try and cover those costs. And she was just saying, like, 318 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: it doesn't make any sense at all. What's some motivation 319 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 1: for me to try and improve myself to study when 320 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: I'm just being set back for just wanting to study 321 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 1: and also have a family. And here's where some other 322 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: parents in the UK had to say about their own 323 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: childcare experience. It's one of amazing things. You've got to 324 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: weigh up when you go back to work. Is it 325 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: worth it. Basically I wasn't working as a result of 326 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: the COVID pandemic when I got pregnant, and it was 327 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: easier to stay out of the workforce and look after 328 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 1: her than trying to get back into the workforce. A 329 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: fair portion of that decision was about the cost of childcare, 330 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: but also the availability of places and the competitiveness of 331 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: the market. My wife did reduce her hours when we 332 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: had children. She switched from working for a regular full 333 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: time job to working in a school so that she 334 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: would be available during half terms and holidays and we 335 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't have to pay for the expensive holiday camps and 336 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: other things that people use during those kinds of times. 337 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: That decision was driven entirely by the cost of those things. 338 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: Looking at the other side of this, even for people 339 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: who can afford childcare, oftentimes you write that they're not 340 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: able to find childcare centers that can take their kids 341 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 1: if there's a shortage. Yeah, definitely. So that was some 342 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 1: other numbers that came out this year which were also 343 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: pretty depressing, and that I think it was finding that 344 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: around fifty percent of local areas said that they didn't 345 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: have enough childcare for working parents. Apparently I didn't realize 346 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: that it's normal to enroll your kids for childcare before 347 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 1: they're born. But for some people, they still aren't able 348 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: to find like the hours that they need all that 349 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: case to them if they're and the hours. So yeah, 350 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: like you're saying, it's pretty bad, and is that to 351 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: do with the pay that childcare providers make that they're 352 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: just unable to find enough people who wanted to work 353 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: long hours under stressful conditions for a relatively low pay. Yeah, 354 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:11,959 Speaker 1: So it's one of those situations which people describe as 355 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: a perfect storm in that there was COVID, and COVID 356 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: really knocked the sector in that it had to keep running, 357 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: but it was under really really challenging circumstances. Obviously, there's 358 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: staffing issues, as you were saying, it's not very well 359 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 1: paid at all, and they're really having problems in terms 360 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: of finding enough people and retaining them. And on top 361 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: of that you've had inflation, so they've also got this 362 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: rising kind of running course. So all of that together 363 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: means a lot of businesses have had to close down 364 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: and that's partly fed into the issues with availability. So 365 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: this is an issue where a lot of people care 366 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: about it, but there hasn't been a whole lot of 367 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: political action in the UK until fairly recently, and now 368 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: it seems like the government is really sitting up and 369 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: taking notice. Yeah, it was interesting. In the latest budget 370 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: childcare was kind of the flag shaped reform that it 371 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 1: was announced today. Childcare reforms will increase the availability of childcare, 372 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 1: reduced costs, and increase the number of parents able to 373 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: use it. Taken together with earlier conservative reforms, they amount 374 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: to the most significant improvements to childcare provision in a decade. 375 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: So Chancellor of the Exchequer Jeremy Hunts ahead of the Treasury, 376 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: he made a really big point about how childcare was 377 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: so important and that it was terrible that people weren't 378 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: working because it was so expensive, and he really made 379 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: it one of the biggest things about the budget that 380 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: was announced earlier this month. And so what exactly did 381 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: the government announce. The things which people probably say are 382 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: good are the things such as on universal credit or benefits. Basically, 383 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: the people who get that get a higher amount of 384 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: child benefit, and the way that it's given to them 385 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: is it's basically paid to them upfront instead of them 386 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: having to pay the childcare and then get it, which 387 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,360 Speaker 1: seems might not seem like that bigger deal, but potentially 388 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: people would kind of go into debt doing that because 389 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: they'd have to pay those costs and then ask for 390 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: it back from the government. But the big thing that 391 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: they did was three to four year olds up to 392 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: this point they got a certain amount of so called 393 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: free childcare hours. They basically got quite a big discount 394 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 1: on their childcare and they've extended that through two children 395 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: for nine months. The problem is that that will cost 396 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: a lot of money, and that program that was already 397 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: in place was already underfunded, which is partly why providers 398 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: have to hype their costs and so on and so forth. 399 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: So what providers are now saying is that there's going 400 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 1: to be this massive amount of demand which they can't 401 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: meet and also can't pay for and can't afford, and 402 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: that's kind of where a lot of the tension has 403 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: come up. So very broadly, the industry said, thank you 404 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: for paying us attention, thank you for kind of giving 405 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: us this platform, but we need more money otherwise this 406 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: very much isn't going to work, and people's hopes are 407 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: going to be up only for more providers closed down. 408 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: The government has announced this new program, how long until 409 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: people actually start to see that money, so it we'll 410 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: be in stages though, I think the first trance, as 411 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: it were, if people will be eligible, I think next year, 412 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: and it won't be fully rolled out until the autumn 413 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: or the fall of twenty twenty five, so it will 414 00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: take a long time, and there's a general election in 415 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: the middle of that. So it's very possible that the 416 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: government ultimately won't do it because it will be a 417 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 1: different government more with Olivia after the break Olivia. So 418 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: obviously this is a big problem across the UK other 419 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: countries for a lot of people, and it doesn't look 420 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: like in the UK they've really found the solution. But 421 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: you do right that there are some countries who are 422 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: doing childcare better. Can you tell us about what they're 423 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 1: doing and which countries they are. Yes, there's some really 424 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: interesting things that different countries are doing. So when it 425 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: comes to things like rankings of childcare systems, people are 426 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: looking at affordability, So how much of people's incomes does 427 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: it take, quality, other teachers highly qualified, how many stuff 428 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: are their children? That kind of thing, and an accessibility, 429 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: so how difficult is it for you to find childcare? 430 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 1: And so then audics do really really well. Iceland comes 431 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: top a lot of the time, and that's partly because 432 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: it's pretty cheap relatively speaking, and also because it's high quality, 433 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: so teachers are pretty well qualified. As a very very 434 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: small amount of children per teachers last big as I saw, 435 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: Iceland spends more than two percent of its GDP on childcare, 436 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: so it's obviously a priority for the government and that 437 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: really shows what are other countries are doing things like 438 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: Iceland wages to invest in childcare as a national priority. 439 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: Canada is also really interesting because historically it's had different 440 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 1: systems across different provinces, but now it's going to roll 441 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: out the same system that was in Quebec. So up 442 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 1: to this point, someone in Toronto paid much, much, much, 443 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: much more than a parent in Quebec would pay. But 444 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: now Canada basically wants to do this thing where on 445 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: average they want parents to pay ten dollars a day 446 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: I think for childcare, which is obviously a massive thing 447 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,360 Speaker 1: and it's going to be one of the biggest things 448 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,439 Speaker 1: that Justin Trudeau potentially does. And the way that they 449 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: want to do that is potentially try and set up 450 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 1: these kind of heavily subsidized not for profit centers, which 451 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: has its drawbacks because often there's way more demand for 452 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 1: these centers than is available. But at the same time, 453 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: you know, it does substantially bring down the cost for 454 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: the majority of people, and it will be one of 455 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: those things where, yeah, they definitely have to spend a 456 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: lot of money on it, but they make the investment 457 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 1: case that you see that money kind of later in 458 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: the growth of the economy, in that it's a really 459 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: important sector for the growth of GDP, So that's the 460 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: kind of business case that they're making for it. Another 461 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 1: place you write about there's been really leaning forward and 462 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: this question is Estonia. They have a really high mass 463 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: and literacy proficiency rate in Estonia. One of the things 464 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: about it is that childcare is basically part of the 465 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: education system, whereas for most countries that's not the case. 466 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: So it's another thing where teachers are highly qualified. That's 467 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 1: very high quality of care and it's really affordable. Let's 468 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 1: talk about when more that you look at, and there's 469 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: New Zealand. I thought the example of New Zealand was 470 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: really really interesting because one of the big drawbacks is 471 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: that it is expensive. It's almost in line with the UK, 472 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: so it is pretty unaffordable. But they have a national 473 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 1: curriculum which is rolled out across the country and it 474 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: really kind of places values like community in self empowerment 475 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: and teach them to children quite early and it says 476 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: that children's emotional well being as a result, we're pretty good. 477 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: And also the quality is really really high. And yes, 478 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 1: it's kind of like a national decision that they took, 479 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: so I thought that was really really interesting. It doesn't 480 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 1: seem that there's a really big secret here where the 481 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,120 Speaker 1: solution is, even though a lot of countries like the UK, 482 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: like the US, have been very slow to adapt it. 483 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: Do you think that the UK would look to some 484 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: of these other countries and try to do what they're doing. Potentially, 485 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: the Labor Party has been quite clear that that's what 486 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: they're doing, and with the Conservative government, I'd be interested 487 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: in what they think about the pushback because on the 488 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: one hand, they really did kind of nail their colors 489 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: to the mast and say we're doing a good job, 490 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 1: and then they had quite a big amount of pushbacks. 491 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: So I'd be interested in if they feel like they 492 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: need to go further and where they would take their 493 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: inspiration from. But yeah, it's very possible. Earlier in our conversation, 494 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: we were talking about how this childcare situation causes a 495 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: lot of women, especially not to enter the workforce when 496 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: they want to or need to. In these other countries 497 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 1: where the system just works better. What have we seen 498 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: when it comes to women's participation in the workforce. So 499 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: it's not an entirely clear cut line. The one exception 500 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: is Germany, where childcare is very affordable. It's high quality. 501 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: In some places it's almost free. But female participation in 502 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: the workforce isn't fantastic, and it's a bit complicated. There's 503 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: other kind of government policies which some people kind of 504 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: come into play, but very broadly speaking, the quality of 505 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: the childcare system, on top of things like maternity leave 506 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: and parents will leave policies, so seems to have some 507 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 1: kind of a link with female participation in the labor market. 508 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: You also mentioned just a little bit ago that we 509 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,479 Speaker 1: start to see economic benefits from childcare early on. That 510 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: shows up not just at the time with their parents, 511 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: but later when those kids grow up and into the 512 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: labor force. Are there numbers where you can actually tell 513 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: what the impact is in countries where they have strong 514 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: childcare systems. When it comes to the economic benefits of 515 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: these kind of policies, what one group has done, PwC, 516 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 1: the consultancy group. They've calculated to what the economic impacts 517 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: to the gross domestic products of different countries would be 518 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: if women were in the workforce, and for some countries 519 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: it's more than a trillion dollars. There's more complicated factors 520 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: that go into that than just childcare pullars seats, but 521 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: it does at least seem to be for some individuals 522 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: a factors, so I think it is definitely something to 523 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: think about. Olivia Connotia Hulu. Thanks so much for speaking 524 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: with me today, Thanks for having me, Thanks for listening 525 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: to us here at The Big Take. It's a daily 526 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more shows from my 527 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 528 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 1: you listen, and we'd love to hear from you. Email 529 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: us questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg dot net. 530 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: The supervising producer of The Big Take is Vicky Bergolina. 531 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. Federica Roman Yellow is 532 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: our produce. Our associate producer is Zeneb Sidiki hilde garcias 533 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: our engineer. Our original music was composed by Leo Sidrin. 534 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: I'm Wescasova. We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take.