1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I'm Akshatrati. This week the electrotech Revolution. 2 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: Here's a crazy start for you. If you're driving a 3 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: fossil fuel car, gasoline, diesel, whatever, more than seventy percent 4 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: of the energy you put into the car is wasted 5 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: as heat. Only thirty percent actually moves the car, and 6 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: that's after more than a century a phenomenal effort to 7 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: make the internal combustion engine as efficient as possible. By comparison, 8 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: if you're driving an electric car, more than eighty percent 9 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: of the energy moves the car, and that's of course now, 10 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: when the electric car story is just beginning. This kind 11 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: of enormous efficiency gain that comes from stopping burning molecules 12 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: and powering things with electrons is one of the key 13 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: pill of what my guest today kings Mill Bond calls 14 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: the electrotech revolution. This, he believes, is a moment in 15 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: time where electricity related technologies start to challenge the dominance 16 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: of fossil fuels. Kings Mill is a strategist at the 17 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: think tank Ember and has had a long career working 18 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 1: across finance for Deutsche Bank and City Bank, as well 19 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: as a strategist for nonprofits like Carbon Tracker and the 20 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: Rocky Mountain Institute alongside his colleagues at Ember. He published 21 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: a report late last year full of cool statistics showing 22 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: how that revolution is unfolding, which countries are speeding ahead 23 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: and which are falling behind, with countries like the US 24 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: backsliding on electro tech. I wanted to invite Kingsmill to 25 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: talk about why he is so certain that the electro 26 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: tech revolution is inevitable and what happens to those that 27 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: are left behind. Kings Mill, Welcome to Zero. 28 00:01:57,760 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: Hi, Sank, I'll see let's start. 29 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: With what you've been currently obsessed with. Your team calls 30 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: it the electro tech revolution. 31 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 2: What is it? 32 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: So? 33 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 2: The electrotech revolution is simply a name that we've given 34 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: to a series of technologies which are rapidly upending the 35 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 2: energy sector. And in broad terms, those technologies can be 36 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 2: classified in three different parts. You have supply, demand, and connections. 37 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 2: So supply is the very rapid growth of solar and 38 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 2: when demand is the rapid growth of electric vehicles and 39 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 2: other electrication technologies. And connections is possibly the least appreciative 40 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 2: but the most interesting part, and it's all of the 41 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 2: connections in the middle. So it's it's batteries, and it's 42 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 2: smart grids and its software, and it's this rising idea 43 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,839 Speaker 2: of an energy net. And it's all the technologies which 44 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 2: connect the supply and demand. 45 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: Of electrons, including artificial intelligence. 46 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: Including AI. And I think it's very interesting that AI 47 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: is very clearly a tool of electrication and it's part 48 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 2: of the electrication story. 49 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: Why do you call it a revolution? Why is that 50 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: the term to use right now? 51 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 2: Because it is so rapid and it's so disruptive. And 52 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 2: that's the difference I suggest between revolution and evolution. So 53 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: evolution would be slow and gentle and nobody would get hurt. 54 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 2: Revolution means that you move from growing Chinese oil demand 55 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: to declining oil demand in a single year, and then 56 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 2: people who have planned for the old system to continue 57 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 2: get damaged. 58 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: Right, So the first one hundred years of electricity were 59 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: an evolution, but now it becomes the thing because of 60 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: all these technology sets, from solar panels and wind turbines 61 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: and electric motors and batteries and heat pumps, they're all 62 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: converging to a point where their use is so easy 63 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: that you can have a revolutionary change. 64 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 2: Yes, you put it much more elegantly in the night 65 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 2: actually so indeed, the coming together these technologies, you know, 66 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 2: after decades of evolution, when they come together, they create 67 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 2: revolutionary force, and you know it's possibly to overstate. Then 68 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 2: the same thing is when that's how you get perfect storms, 69 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 2: when lots of different weather fronts come together the right 70 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: place at right time. That's what's now happening in the 71 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 2: energy system as we finally, after decades, actually have figured 72 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 2: out how to deploy these technologies at speed and scale. 73 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: So I wanted to slice andize this in different ways. 74 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: But let's start with something that I got asked a 75 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 1: lot last year. So we did this series called Bottlenecks, 76 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: where we published a bunch of features on Bloomberg and 77 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: had conversations here on this podcast. And the main thesis 78 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 1: was that even as Western countries are now seeing a 79 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: real boom in electricity demand and that's like first time 80 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: in decades, they are struggling to build all that electricity 81 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: supply because of bottlenecks of things that people don't think about, 82 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: so stuff like transformers and cables, but also skilled workers 83 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 1: and engineers, and that's holding back electrification. One question that 84 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: we got in response to that series is, wait, you're 85 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: a climate journalist, Why is this a climate story through. 86 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 2: Two parts of the energy transition. People often forget this. 87 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 2: So the first part is the decarbonization of electricity generation, 88 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 2: where we have solar and win and it's worthwhile saying, 89 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 2: for example, that all of the growth in electricity demand 90 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 2: now comes from solar and wind, to every single new 91 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 2: electron added to the system on a system basis is clean. 92 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: But then the second part of the energy transition, and 93 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 2: the one that's most frequently forgotten, particularly in the West, 94 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 2: actually is electrication. You have to electrify everything, So you 95 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 2: need to do both of these things if you wish 96 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 2: to push out fossil fuels. But it's not just as 97 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 2: unoacchat not just a question anymore of pushing out fossil 98 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 2: fuels is a question of getting economic and geopolitical advantage. 99 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: But in this case, a lot of the electricity demand 100 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: in Western countries is being driven by data centers, and 101 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: a lot of those data centers are taking whatever electrons 102 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: they can get, whether that comes from fossil fuels or not, 103 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 1: or in fact they're building a lot more gas supply, 104 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: So even a system wide electrification is driving the reduction 105 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: in fossil fuel use. For the first time. Now there 106 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: are these pockets where just this massive growth and electricity 107 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: is being driven by fossil fuels. Why then, is still 108 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: electrification a climate story. 109 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 2: First of all, you need to distinguish between an individual 110 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 2: actor and the system, obviously, and then secondly, you have 111 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 2: a need to electrify everything. And if you have a 112 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 2: small amount of fossil fuels going into your electricity generation, 113 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 2: which then replaces fossil fuels, then on a net basis, 114 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 2: you are reducing your fossil fuel demands. So but in 115 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 2: concrete terms, in Europe at the moment, seventy percent of 116 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 2: our electricity generation is from non fossil sources, but eighty 117 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,559 Speaker 2: percent of what we're trying to electrifize from fossil fuels. 118 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 2: So by definition, every time you add electricity to the system, 119 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 2: it is pushing a more fossil intensive out, so it 120 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: is a far superior solution. 121 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: And then there is the efficiency story that comes with electrification. 122 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: So there's this really nice phrase that I've heard you 123 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: talk about, which is electrons are disciplined and molecules are fiery. 124 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 2: This is amry Loven's phrase, of course, yes. 125 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: And that leads to energy outcomes that are very interesting. 126 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: So what is it about electrification and efficiency that makes 127 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: it a driver of change? 128 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 2: So when you're talking about electrication, it's quite interesting. There 129 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 2: are two areas. If I take the nick Air framing, 130 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 2: you can actually divide all useful energy into two parts, 131 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: heat and work. And whenever electricity is replacing molecules in 132 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: work solutions, which in English means transport above all, then 133 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 2: you have a three or four to one efficiency advantage. 134 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 2: When they're replacing molecules in heat heat they have that 135 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 2: advantage if they use heat pumps. But the really interesting 136 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 2: story is when electricity replaces fossil molecules in transport, we 137 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: have a three to one efficiency advantage. And then also 138 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 2: further up the chain, when solar replaces coal or gas 139 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 2: in the generation of electricity, you also have a three 140 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 2: to one efficiency advantage. So on a net basis, the 141 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 2: system we currently have uses about six hundred exidules of 142 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 2: primary energy to get two hundred exidules of useful energy. 143 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 2: If you were to decarbonize electricity generation and electrify it 144 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: would be about two hundred to two hundred. So you 145 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 2: have a massive reduction in primary energy demand, which just 146 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 2: makes everything considerably easier. 147 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is surprising on most people don't know that 148 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: the internal combustion engine in a car is essentially wasting 149 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: seventy five percent of all the energy just as waste 150 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: heat and not turning it into transport, whereas an electric 151 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: car is eighty ninety percent efficient. Even if you count 152 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: for the electricity coming to you via this transmission system, 153 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: that there are some losses. If that's the case, that 154 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: there are all these advantages that electricity and the electricity 155 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 1: system has for people, for economies, for the climate problem, 156 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: for bills, why is it that electricity and electrotech revolution 157 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: doesn't sell itself to degree. 158 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 2: The answer to that is that we are now selling 159 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 2: it actually, and you know it's not of course, just 160 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 2: as the many other people who have many different parts 161 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 2: of the system which they are deploying. I think to 162 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 2: answer your question, in the first part of the electric revolution, 163 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 2: the deployment of renewables, as you know, solar's been doubling 164 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,319 Speaker 2: every three years, and WIN has been growing also very rapidly. 165 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 2: So actually on the decarbonization of electricity, it's pretty much 166 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 2: job done now. All of the growth is now coming 167 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 2: from MBA statistics from twenty twenty five, all of the 168 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 2: growth came from solar and wind. So we've reached the 169 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 2: peak increasingly clear in China, and we were on the 170 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 2: other side. But that's only, as I say, one piece 171 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 2: of the system is about twenty percent of final energy demand. 172 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 2: The really exciting story in the story of twenty twenty 173 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 2: six onward is electrication and increasing the speed with which 174 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 2: electricity can replace molecules in the system. And that's that's 175 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 2: not been happening nearly as quickly. That's only been growing 176 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 2: at three or four percent the year. It needs to 177 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 2: happen quicker. 178 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: Now we have the second largest consumer of energy, the 179 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: United States, a government that isn't particularly interested in either 180 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: electrification or in clean energy, and the Energy Secretary, Chris Wright, 181 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: you know, is talking about this all the time. One 182 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: of the most recent things he said is, look, wherever 183 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: clean electricity has taken off, it has led to higher 184 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: electricity prices and do as a result of de industrialization. 185 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: You know, Germany is a classic case in that, but 186 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: you could count the UK in it as well. Do 187 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: you think higher electricity prices are just a feature of 188 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: electro tech or are there other ways to deal with this? Issue. 189 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 2: Well, as you know, it's a pretty complicated issue. So 190 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 2: one of the very obvious pushbacks to this framing that 191 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 2: decarbonization increases electricity prices. The counter argument is China, which 192 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 2: of course has amongst the world's cheapest prices for electricity 193 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 2: and is very rapidly been deployed in solar and when 194 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 2: and you know, the answer basically is, if you do 195 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 2: it right, you can get your prices down. If you 196 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 2: do it wrong, then your price don't fall. And there's 197 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 2: a huge amount of policy improvement and policy learning that 198 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 2: needs to be taken from successful countries and deployed in 199 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 2: other countries in order to get electricity prices down. And 200 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 2: I think this is one of the big things actually 201 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,199 Speaker 2: now that's stop people are starting to think about in 202 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 2: the UK, is being talked about increasingly in Europe. How 203 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 2: do we use these cheap renewable sources not merely to decarbonize, 204 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: but also to get costs down. 205 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: What did Europe get wrong? Then? 206 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 2: One of the things that one of the errors that's 207 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 2: been made is a failure to recognize that electrication is 208 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 2: the core and second vector of change, and therefore people 209 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 2: have loaded costs onto electricity generation. So right now in 210 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 2: Europe as an example, electricity is being taxed at two 211 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 2: or three times the level of taxation on gas. Now, 212 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 2: if we're right and we need to electrify and we 213 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: need to encourage electricity to push gas out of the system, 214 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 2: obviously that needs to be reversed, and there are some countries, 215 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 2: notably Sweden, where they don't do that, and Denmark course 216 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 2: has just famously taken the tax off electricity. So one 217 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 2: areas we need to reduce the cost being loaded onto electricity. 218 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 2: A second thing we need to do is just need 219 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 2: to make it considerably easier to electrify. So all these 220 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 2: these historic rules and structures that we have which bolster 221 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 2: the old system, we need to we need to rewrite them. 222 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 2: There's a lot of work then to be done in 223 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 2: that area. The third thing is that we need to 224 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 2: stop pouring money into that's fake twenty to fifty solutions 225 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 2: such as carbon capture and other very high cost solutions. 226 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 2: Let's take all of that money and put it into 227 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 2: reducing electricity prices and then get let the market do 228 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 2: the work. 229 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: One thing you highlight in your electrotech revolution thesis is 230 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: that because of these forces, the electrotech revolution is inevitable 231 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: because the physics drives it, the efficiency drives it, and 232 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,079 Speaker 1: if you have the right policies, the cost will also 233 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: start to drive it. If that is the case, then 234 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: why are we here in twenty twenty six where the 235 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: US is going after Venezuela and oil and there is 236 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: this worldview being created among the Canadians, among the Australians 237 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: that you know, the fossil fuel system still has plenty 238 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: of legs and one that we must pursue. 239 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 2: So, as one of your previous intellecutors, Sheldon white House 240 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 2: pointed out, if the fossil fuel industry is able to 241 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 2: take over a government, then they will support policies which 242 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 2: favor the fossil of your industry. Really, as simple as that, 243 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 2: and we shouldn't be surprised that incumbents amounting a massive 244 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 2: fight back and resisting changes as powerfully as they can, 245 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 2: because obviously this new technology shift, as with other technology shifts, 246 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 2: will wipe them out eventually. And of course therefore, if 247 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 2: they can buy themselves another five or ten years, that's 248 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 2: what they're doing. But it doesn't really detract from the 249 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 2: fundamental drivers, as you say, of physics, efficiency of economics, 250 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 2: and now increasingly of geopolitics. And I think this is 251 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: another angle which is becoming increasingly apparent, will become increasingly 252 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: apparent in twenty twenty five the more that petro state 253 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 2: power is exercised aggressively around the world, and Venezuela's another 254 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 2: good example of this, the more that people will be 255 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 2: scared to become dependent upon imported fossil fuels and will 256 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 2: hunt for their own domestic resources. And that's what electrotech 257 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 2: can del So if you decarbonize electricity and electrify and demand, 258 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 2: then you're getting your own sunshine and your own wind 259 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 2: and your own talent building the electricity system, and it's 260 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: all homegrown. 261 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: And one of the things that you've done throughout your career, 262 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: whether that was at Carbon Tracker or Rocky Mountain Institute 263 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: or now at Ember, is that you've tried to not 264 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: just make this narrative point, but actually thrown numbers underneath 265 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: it which show this in one hundred different ways. There 266 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: are hundred slides in the Electrotech Revolution deck, but on 267 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: the opposite side you also get numbers thrown around. So 268 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: one that Chris Wright tries to bring up again and again, 269 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: he's like, look, If you look at that total amount 270 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: of energy consumed in nineteen seventies, eighty five percent came 271 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: from fossil fuels. You look at the number today, eighty 272 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: percent comes from fossil fuels. What even has clean tech 273 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: done for the world? How do you answer that? 274 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, actually, just numerically, this is a 275 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 2: you have to be quite cute with the numbers, because 276 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 2: it's basically it's gone from ninety five to eighty over 277 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 2: about forty years, so it has been falling the share 278 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 2: of fossil fuels. But actually there's a much more fundamental. 279 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: And that's in primary energy. 280 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 2: The primary is there's a much more fundamental response to this, 281 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 2: which is you're looking at the wrong numbers, folks. So 282 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 2: when to give a good analogy, perhaps when you look 283 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 2: at bread demand, do you count the wheat harvest? No, 284 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 2: you look at final demand bread demand. When you look 285 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 2: at the car industry and you're trying to figure out 286 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 2: whether tesla or bid or Toyota is a better bed 287 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 2: for the future, do you look at the number of 288 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 2: Toyotas in the streets. No, you look at the market 289 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 2: share of sales. So there are two errors which are 290 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 2: being made by incumbents. The first is they are looking 291 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 2: at primary not useful. They're looking from the supplier perspective, 292 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 2: not the consumer's perspective. And then the second is they're 293 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 2: looking at stock not flow. And when you look at 294 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 2: when you flip it round and look at the amount 295 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 2: of useful energy which is pouring into the system from 296 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 2: renewable sources. In the electricity sector, solar and wind are 297 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 2: one hundred percent of the growth in final demand, electricity 298 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 2: is about fifty to sixty percent of the growth. So 299 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 2: there's a huge shift going on. And again, as a 300 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 2: kind of finance person, it's worthwhile standing back and saying, 301 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 2: of course there are you know, any legacy industry will 302 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 2: always be dominant as a share of the total at 303 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 2: the top. But that's not what you want to look at. 304 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 2: You want to look at the share of change, or 305 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 2: even the change of change. 306 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 1: One place where you have this new report out where 307 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: you can see the change is in India. And you know, 308 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: I come from India. I've always thought that given the 309 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: size of the country, given its state of development right now, 310 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: where the Indian energy transition goes is where the rest 311 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: of the world's energy transition will go. What did you 312 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: learn from doing this work, what does the report conclude. 313 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 2: So we're extremely excited about this analysis that we're just 314 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 2: putting out because there is this conventional, orthodox narrative that 315 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 2: India and the emerging markets must follow the same path 316 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 2: that the Western China did, and they must go from 317 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 2: biomass to fossil fuels and that's their path to greater 318 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 2: energy demand. And you see that in the pages of 319 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 2: the Exon Forecast and in the implicit assumptions to the EIA, 320 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 2: for example. What we're finding is that India specifically as 321 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 2: an illustration of what's happening in other emerging markets, but 322 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 2: India is taking a new path, and India is taking 323 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 2: its own path to an electrotech future. And in very 324 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 2: simple terms, rather than going from biomass to electrons as 325 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 2: your primary final energy source via fossil fuels, they're avoiding 326 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 2: the fossil detol They're going straight to electrons. And its 327 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 2: very interesting. There's a very interesting well, we think we 328 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 2: like this a kind of turnary chart we'd produce in 329 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 2: our analysis which shows that Europe and the US fifty 330 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 2: years ago went down the fossil path, are now coming 331 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:14,719 Speaker 2: back towards the electric solution. China also started cascading down 332 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 2: the fossil path twenty five years ago and now is 333 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 2: coming back to the electric solution. India cleverly is going 334 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 2: straight there. So to compare, if you compare and contrast 335 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: the situation in India today with the situation in China 336 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 2: when it had a similar level of GDP capital which 337 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 2: is around twenty twelve in PPP terms, you see that 338 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 2: India has got a whole suite of new solutions available 339 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 2: to it. So it's got very cheap solar, It's got 340 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 2: so soloplus batteries now forty dollars per may got hour. 341 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 2: It's got very cheap batteries available to it. And therefore 342 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 2: India is getting seven percent of its eletricity from solar today, 343 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 2: where China has zero at a similar level of GDPP capita, 344 00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 2: and it's got nineteen percent electrication which is all almost 345 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 2: the same level as the United States, even though it's 346 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 2: GDP per capital is dramatically lower, and ev market shafers 347 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 2: is five percent and sixty percent sixty percent in three wheelers. 348 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 2: So India's just doing a lot of very very different 349 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 2: stuff to what other countries did at a similar level 350 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 2: of GDP per capita, and as a result of that, 351 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 2: India's fossil fuel demand is dramatically lower than that of China, 352 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 2: specifically at a similar level of GDP per capital And 353 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 2: to give you the stat some India, Indian demand for 354 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 2: coal is around one mega or our per person, where 355 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 2: China was two and a half. And it is looking 356 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 2: and as you know this year, Indian coal demand capita 357 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 2: fell is looking increasingly like Indian col demand per capita 358 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 2: is never going down the old China route. And the 359 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 2: same story with petrol, where Indian demand for petrol capita 360 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 2: is around one hundred liters where China was two fifty. 361 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 2: And India's not going down this other path. It's taking 362 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 2: its own path. 363 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 1: So this is where you're flipping the stock and floor 364 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: story here, because most of the time you talk about 365 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,479 Speaker 1: India and you say, oh, look they are building all 366 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: the solar They're like, but look they're also building all 367 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: these coal power plants, which is the flu part. There are, yes, 368 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: in plan currently lots of new coal power plants that 369 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: are going to still come. But what you're saying is, yes, 370 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: they may build more coal power plants, but as a 371 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: total proportion at their level of wealth, they're actually a 372 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: much cleaner country already. 373 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 2: We're not flipping the stck of flowpar because if you 374 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 2: look at the flow story, seventy five percent of the 375 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 2: growth in twenty twenty five in electricity generation came from solar. 376 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 2: So the particular argument that you're talking about about India 377 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 2: building new coal fired capacity, the key point here is 378 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 2: that you don't want to look at the capacity of coal. 379 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 2: You want to look at how much coal is burnt. 380 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 2: And what's happening is that coal is shifting from baseload 381 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 2: to backup, and these facilities are moving from operating at 382 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 2: eighty ninety percent operating at twenty thirty percent, And as 383 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 2: you know, China's gone through fifty percent. India is now 384 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 2: heading but I believe towards fifty percent capacity utilization in 385 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 2: its coal sector. So people need to understand where the 386 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 2: electricity is being generated from, and actually from a flow perspective, 387 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 2: as I say, it's increasingly from solar. 388 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: Now. 389 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: Again, it's not entirely surprising, and it's the same thing 390 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 2: with all technologies. When you had the mobile phone revolution, 391 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 2: did you want to put all the money into building 392 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 2: fixed line phone systems? Now? 393 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 1: You didn't. 394 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 2: Now you've got all this electrotech, why bother with the 395 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 2: old fossil tech when the new stuff is cheaper and 396 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 2: cleaner and faster and local. And of course, India specifically 397 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 2: and many other emerging markets has a massive fossil fuel 398 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 2: dependency problem or almost all of India's oil and gas 399 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 2: is imported, and actually quite a large chunk of its 400 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 2: coal as well. And therefore, for India both to grow 401 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,479 Speaker 2: and have an energy independence and to reduce the terrible 402 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 2: burden of one hundred and fifty billion dollars of fossil 403 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 2: fuel imports five percent of GDP every year, India needs 404 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 2: to find other solutions, and of course they're doing that 405 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 2: because they can. 406 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: After the break, I asked kings Mill what would derail 407 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: the electrotech revolution? And if you're enjoying this episode, please 408 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: take a moment to rate and review the show on 409 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. We love reading your feedback 410 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 1: and it helps new listeners discover zero. Recently, Felicity Future wrote, 411 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: I really liked the Moderator and the Argentina episode was 412 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 1: super interesting. Thank you, Felicity. I kind of like the 413 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: Moderator too. Now be the devil's advocate and tell me 414 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: what derails the electrotech revolution. 415 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 2: So what derails the electrotech revolution would be if China 416 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 2: suddenly found a huge oil deposit and then an a 417 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 2: very cheat one, and then decided that they didn't need 418 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 2: these technologies. That would be one thing which could certainly 419 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 2: not necessarily derail but hold it back for a while. 420 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 2: I guess a lot of people have pointed to the 421 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 2: rising conflict between China and the United States as something 422 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 2: that's going to hold back change, but in fact what's 423 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 2: actually happening on the ground is it's speeding up change 424 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 2: because now China has an incentive to deploy their technologies, 425 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 2: possibly to allow their technologies to be deployed more rapidly 426 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 2: in the emerging markets. And at the same time, people 427 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 2: are getting nervous about the amount of petro state power 428 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 2: being exercised by Trump and his coterie and therefore a 429 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 2: hunting for domestic solution. So actually, strangely enough of that 430 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 2: tension is I would suggest speeding up change. 431 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 1: You guys have also talked about this idea of an 432 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: electro state, that countries like China, like India are now 433 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: going down the path where their development is coming through electricity, 434 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: where their economic story will come through electricity. Define electro state. 435 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 2: An electro state, as we define it, is simply a 436 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 2: country which is getting its electricity from renewable sources and 437 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 2: its final energy from electricity. So of course nobody's got 438 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 2: one hundred percent and one hundred percent, but increasingly countries 439 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 2: are gravitating to getting the electricity from renewable sources and 440 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 2: their final energy from electricity. So that's how we define it. 441 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 2: And there's one further I would be lax if I 442 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 2: didn't mention one further angle to this, which is using 443 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 2: your electric state advantages to deploy power as an electro power. 444 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 2: The point is that anyone I would suggest can become 445 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 2: an electro state, very few countries can exercise power because 446 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 2: that's the difference between electricity and fossil fuels. Fossil fuels 447 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 2: enabled you to have power over others. Electro state technologies 448 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 2: allow you to have power over yourself. 449 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: Well, that's an interesting way of thinking about it because 450 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: most people in the energy space understand what a status 451 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 1: which is, you know, first being that most of its 452 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: income comes from petroleum in some form, and that they 453 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: use that income to drive power and drive geopolitical tensions 454 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 1: around the world. So in that sense, you know, America 455 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: wouldn't fall in the classic category of a petro state 456 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: because its economy is not hugely dependent on fossil fuels, 457 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 1: and yet it does fall in the definition of a 458 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: petro state these days, with using its geopolitical power as 459 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 1: the world's largest producer of oil and gas. If you 460 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: flip it, China is starting to use some of its 461 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: electrostate power for actual geopolitical power, right It's going to 462 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: all these developing countries where it is deploying electrification resources, 463 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: whether that is in the grid itself, which it's doing 464 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 1: in plenty of places, or whether it's supplying electric cars. 465 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: But electrostate itself doesn't lead to an automatic state of power, 466 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 1: whereas petrostate does. 467 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, And I think that's you know, that's the 468 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 2: great difference between this new world we're entering into, which 469 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 2: is not so Darwinian, not so hobbsy, and shall we say, 470 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 2: it is giving people much more local distributed power. So 471 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 2: when it comes to this argument, I very frequently hear 472 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 2: from my friends in the fossil fuel industry that Europe, 473 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 2: for example, should worry about being dependent upon China for 474 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 2: electrostate imports, and that there is an equivalence between electrotech 475 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 2: imports and fossil fuel inputs. This clearly is incorrect, and 476 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 2: the main reason it's incorrect is because you're again confusing 477 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: stocks and floats. So if you buy a solar panel, 478 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 2: it lasts for thirty years, your solar panel supply cuts 479 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 2: you off. You've got thirty years to find another one. 480 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 2: If you buy a barrel of oil, you have to 481 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 2: burn it the same day and then the next day 482 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 2: you have to buy another one. So it's just completely 483 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 2: different to your degree of dependency. That's one angle, and 484 00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 2: if I made there's one other I think very important 485 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 2: point here, which is that in the old world of 486 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 2: fossil fuel dominance, a very small number of countries, by 487 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 2: geographic chances, sitting on a very large share of the 488 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 2: energy resources. In the electrotech world, anyone can do it. 489 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 2: And it's not just the fact that everyone's got sunshine 490 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 2: and wind, but everybody can build if they want to 491 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 2: electrotech systems. And it's very interesting. Everyone talks all the 492 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 2: time about how China dominates solar panel and battery production, 493 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 2: and that is true, but there are plenty of other 494 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 2: pieces in the electrotech system, so cables for example, and 495 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 2: software and transformers, and there are plenty of other countries 496 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 2: actually who are rising already supplying this, and I would 497 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 2: suggest we're probably at a moment of peak Chinese dominance 498 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 2: in electrotech system and as the rest of the world 499 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 2: starts to wake up and realize that this is the 500 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 2: energy future. In India is a classic example of this, 501 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 2: we will actually see that dominance full but. 502 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: We are seeing very interesting things play out as a result. 503 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: So India, yes, you're right that it is trying to 504 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: build its own supply chain for all sorts of electrotech. 505 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: But just this past week we've heard from Reliance, which 506 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,479 Speaker 1: was trying to build its own lithiumian battery supply, that 507 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: it has halted that project because the Chinese wouldn't provide 508 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: the equipment that is necessary with Chinese make to make 509 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,239 Speaker 1: the batteries in India. We've also seen, for example, in 510 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: the Net Zero Industry Act in the European Union, which 511 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: is asking its member states to start to reduce Chinese 512 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: dependence on all sorts of electrotech. Italy is the first 513 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: country that has come out with a rule that is 514 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: requiring a pretty strict definition of what Chinese contribution to 515 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: its solar industry counts as, and as a result, it 516 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: can only now access ten percent of the solar modules 517 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: that are produced in the world, which is still plenty. 518 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: You know, Italy is a small country. It'll get its supply. 519 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: But imagine if all of Europe has to suddenly do that. 520 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: There is a risk that the Chinese dominance in electrotech 521 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: starts to actually not be an advantage for the world 522 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: in the future as it has been so far because 523 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: it's been cheap to get that stuff. 524 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really good point that if nothing changes 525 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 2: then it will be dangerous. And this, I guess is 526 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 2: why things do need to change, and actually, in fairness 527 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 2: do need to continue to change, because again that there 528 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 2: are these very famous statistics being produced by a number 529 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 2: of people showing that the Chinese investment abroad in building 530 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 2: electrotech facilities is now two hundred billion dollars, which is 531 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,239 Speaker 2: at a level comparable to the Marshall Plan, and there 532 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 2: are now facilities being built all over the world from 533 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 2: from Europe to India, to Southeast Asia to South America, 534 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 2: which and we need to be careful about this. Obviously, 535 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 2: we need to It needs to be done in a 536 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 2: good way. It needs to be done in a way 537 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 2: that allows the technology expertise to be transferred over time. 538 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 2: And as you say, actually it's not guaranteed that that 539 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 2: will happen, and that's the function of governments to seek 540 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 2: to ensure that they get these technologies effectively. But I 541 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 2: think if I may push back at one other point, 542 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,719 Speaker 2: take India for example, India in the last decade has 543 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 2: gone from having around twenty two billion dollars of electronics 544 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 2: production to one hundred and thirty billion dollars, so fivefold increase. 545 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 2: It's gone from making two million phones to three hundred 546 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 2: million phones. So clearly there's a huge amount of talent 547 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 2: and capacity, and there are bound to be teething troubles. 548 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 2: But I think when you're kind of looking at the 549 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 2: direction of travel and an increasingly clear recognition in the 550 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 2: emerging markets that this is the future, people will build 551 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 2: these facilities. 552 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: Beyond economics and even geopolitics, one place where at a 553 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: government level everything is trumped is national security. And what 554 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: we've seen is that the electrical system, like any energy system, 555 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: has real challenges when it comes to being resilient in 556 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: the face of say, cyber attack. So famously this year, 557 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,719 Speaker 1: when the capture of Maduro happened in Venezuela, the Venezuelan 558 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 1: power grid was disabled by the US. These kinds of 559 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: cyber risks are real in a digital world. They happen 560 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: in all sorts of places, but the grid itself. The 561 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: more central it becomes to running a country, which it 562 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: already is in most countries. But if we are looking 563 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,959 Speaker 1: at this electrification pathway, it really becomes the source of energy. 564 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,479 Speaker 1: How do you think of the electric tech revolution in 565 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: the face of a resiliency and a security problem? 566 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 2: So I guess the first point to be made is 567 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 2: this is not new. We've had a cyber attacks and 568 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 2: our electricity system for decades, also on the. 569 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: Fossil fuel system, because the gas pipeline in the US, 570 00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: if you remember during the pandemic, was famously under cyber attack. 571 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: We still don't know who exactly caused it, but there 572 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: was an issue with fossil fuel transport as well exactly. 573 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 2: And all of our systems come under attack at different moments. 574 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 2: And the part of the answer is we need to 575 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 2: deploy the resources as countries or many countries doing in 576 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 2: order to ensure that that we have greater resilience. But 577 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 2: I mean, if I extrapolate your argument to its absolutely 578 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 2: logical conclusion, we should kind of all using stones because 579 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 2: that can't be hacked. I mean, ultimately, if we wish 580 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 2: to have a modern society, we have to deploy very 581 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 2: powerful cybernetic security. But there's actually one very there's one 582 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 2: very interesting new idea which is now materializing from Sweden, 583 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 2: from Jonas Bergersen, who has come up with an energy 584 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 2: net system which is now being deployed in a land 585 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 2: and is possibly going to get rolled out in Sweden. 586 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 2: Then in the same way as broadband internet protocol spread globally, 587 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 2: this energy protocol could also spread globally. And this energy 588 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 2: protocol is much more resilient because it's all local systems. 589 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 2: Each one is separated from the wider grade galvanized I 590 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 2: think is the technical term, from the wider grade, and 591 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 2: therefore they you can't control, you can't call cascading blackouts 592 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 2: in the entire grade if you have one little piece 593 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 2: of this system. And again I just I mainly mentioned 594 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 2: this is one of the very interesting new ideas which 595 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 2: is bubbling up from entrepreneurs such as Biggerson in order 596 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 2: to help to solve the problem. 597 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: Why is this story much harder and much slower in 598 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: a way? Right? This happened most recently in the telecom industry, 599 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 1: where you went from you know, dial up internet to 600 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,839 Speaker 1: to fiber internet, or you went from telephones on your 601 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: desk to mobile phones and a bunch of companies lost 602 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: as a result. Are you saying this is harder because 603 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: the incumbent industry is just so much larger, has so 604 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: much more political influence than any other industry that was 605 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: kicked out as a result of technology change. 606 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, I put you figure right, that's the point. I mean, 607 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 2: the energy system generates two thousand billion dollars of rent 608 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 2: every single year. Rents the difference between how much it 609 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 2: costs you to extract the oil and how much you 610 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 2: get paid for it. And that's an awfully large amount 611 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 2: of money that you can use to try and slow 612 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 2: down change. And what actually is even more interesting is, 613 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 2: in spite of all that money, in spite of the 614 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,879 Speaker 2: constant cascade of lies trying to prop up the status quote, 615 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 2: change is just ongoing. It's so powerful. 616 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,280 Speaker 1: One aspect that we haven't touched on in the electrotech 617 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: revolution is the idea of sectors that have not yet 618 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 1: been electrified. So you know, batteries are doing a lot 619 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,399 Speaker 1: to try and make the grid become more and more 620 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: clean as a result. But what about industry, because there's 621 00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: all these hard to abate sectors as they are called, steel, cement, aviation, shipping, 622 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 1: how is the electrotech revolution going to come to them? 623 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 2: So it's not a relevant question in twenty twenty six, 624 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 2: not to dismiss it in any way, but let me 625 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 2: give you a couple of analogies. I mean, the first 626 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 2: one would be, I'm sure, actually you were very good 627 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 2: at maths at school. You know, you went through school 628 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 2: let out shining, and you had your initial exams and 629 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 2: you eventually get to your university finals in maths. And 630 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 2: we don't ask seven year olds to take university finals 631 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 2: in maths, right, We first of all teach them algebra. 632 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 2: And it's exactly the same in the energy transition. We 633 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 2: don't need to be doing the really hard stuff at 634 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,240 Speaker 2: scale everywhere today. We need to do the easy stuff, 635 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 2: the easy to solve sectors. And the great lesson over 636 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 2: the last decade is the more you solve the easy 637 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 2: to solve sectors, the wider solution suite, cheaper the electrotech solutions, 638 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,399 Speaker 2: and the more opportunities arise to solve the harder ones. 639 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 2: So we actually, if I may say so, we have 640 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 2: made a bit of a category error by focusing so 641 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 2: hard on the hard to solve sectors in twenty twenty 642 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 2: six or for the last decade. Actually, we definitely need 643 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 2: to do that. So I'm not suggesting for a second 644 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 2: that the people doing this hard and brilliant work to 645 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 2: decarbonize the hardest to solve sectors shouldn't be doing. Of course, 646 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 2: they should be doing it, and I salute them. But 647 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 2: from a system perspective, what we need to be doing 648 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,720 Speaker 2: is we need to be removing the barriers to entry 649 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 2: in order to speed up deployment of solo and speed 650 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 2: up electrication. And actually, if I made sort of conclude 651 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 2: on this, one of the reasons why it's been so 652 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 2: hard to electrify end use in Europe, so Europe's been 653 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 2: stuck around twenty to twenty two percent for about fifteen years. 654 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 2: One of the reasons why is because we've had these 655 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 2: people trying to figure out twenty fifty solutions and building 656 00:37:54,080 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 2: hydrogen hydrogen highways through Germany and coming up with totally 657 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 2: mad ideas like bioenergy, carbon capture and storage for twenty 658 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 2: to fifty and thinking about pouring this stuff into the 659 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,919 Speaker 2: other These are all completely irrelevant in twenty twenty six. 660 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 2: But what they're doing is they're loading costs onto the 661 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 2: old system. They're confusing the public, they're slowing down change, 662 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 2: and they're stopping us from getting and from doing what 663 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 2: we need to do, which is get the electricity price 664 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 2: down and just electrified stuff. 665 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: I'm not sure on the policy side, I quite agree 666 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:27,880 Speaker 1: on the narrative side may be true. But you know, 667 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 1: for Europe to have essentially brought in renewables policy in 668 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 1: the early two thousands and pour hundreds of billions of 669 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: euros through Germany through Spain is what allowed Solo to 670 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: become this cheap because the Chinese were supplying it, etc. 671 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: And so you need to do that for the twenty 672 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 1: fifty technologies now. But I think I agree with you 673 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: that the narrative side, perhaps the fact that we talk about, 674 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: oh but what about this stuff that hasn't been solved, 675 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,879 Speaker 1: as a way of distracting from the from the real 676 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: advantages that the technology has brought is probably real. 677 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, just to push back a little bit of this, 678 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,359 Speaker 2: I mean the ultimately what has worked has been small 679 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 2: modular technologies, and not everything has worked. And you know, 680 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,399 Speaker 2: if there's been a great lesson, as a done farm 681 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 2: at Oxford points out, it's really been if you leant 682 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 2: into small modular technologies you could replicate at scale. And 683 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 2: though that's where we've had a lot of success. So 684 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 2: our very simple observation is so learn we're into para electronics, electrication, 685 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 2: AI and software and these are all classic technologies where 686 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,279 Speaker 2: the costs of falling over time. We should lean into 687 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 2: them and hunt for solutions there that will then create 688 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 2: a foundation on which our children could actually figure out 689 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 2: the hard source sectors eventually. 690 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:56,719 Speaker 1: Thank you King Smell, thank you many chat, and thank 691 00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,319 Speaker 1: you for listening to zero. Now for the sound of 692 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: the week. The louder one was the sound of a 693 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,720 Speaker 1: mechanical shutter on a mirrorless digital camera, while the quieter 694 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 1: one was the electronic shutter on the same camera. I 695 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: recently bought a new mirrorless digital camera with film simulations 696 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: and have been nerding out about how so much of 697 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: the camera is still quite analog and Old School. If 698 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: you liked this episode, please take a moment to rate 699 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: and review the show on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, and Spotify. 700 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,320 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Oscar boyd Our theme music 701 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,480 Speaker 1: is composed by wonder Lee. Special thanks to Samersadi, Moses Adam, 702 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: Laura Milan and Sharan chen I. Am Akshatrati Back soon.