WEBVTT - Falling For it: Brains Wired for Bias - Lab 113 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.120 Before we jump into today's episode. We've been teasing it 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.000 a little bit, but the time has finally come. We 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:11.280 have a planetarium film that is coming out on November sixth. Okay, 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:14.840 it's called Remix The Unexpected Side of Science, and we 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:18.720 would love if some of our very very cool friends 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:20.720 that are listening to our show right now would be 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:22.239 a part of it. If you head to the link 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:24.639 in our bio on Instagram, we have a really cool 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:28.160 way for you to incorporate yourself into our planetarium film. 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:35.360 I'm TT and I'm Zukiah and this is Dope Labs. 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:39.919 Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:42.920 science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship. 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:50.559 Have you seen that trend on social media that's like 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:55.280 propaganda I'm falling for. It's basically people listing the things 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.200 that they love that may be a scam or not 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:00.160 very popular, but they don't care. 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:00.600 You know. 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:04.720 I have seen it, and I'm like, what's on my list? 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:09.360 What's on your list? I got a few things. A 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:14.000 probably that soda is not that bad for you. I 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:15.760 don't even know if there's anything out there that says that, 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:16.360 but that's what I. 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:17.000 Tell so. 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:23.760 I think I've had some shifts. I know, I've looked 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:25.880 at the evidence and I'm like, coffee is good for me. 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:29.479 Do you remember that that it was a wife swap 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:32.240 episode or where they switched the wives out and the 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:34.319 families and that little boy was like, bacon. 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:38.800 Is good for me. I feel like that a lot 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:39.440 of sad. 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:41.520 About all the things I love, and I'm like, of course, 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:44.480 even if there's evidence that tells me it's not, I 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:47.320 feel the same way. I mean, I also believe that 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:50.640 barrel jeans are cute. Now. I know that that is 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.200 a polarizing topic right now because of the shape of them. 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:57.280 Some people are like absolutely not me all the time. 0:01:58.840 --> 0:01:59.960 Yeah, I love a barrel jeane. 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:02.560 You know, I think the mind is such a curious 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:05.800 place because, like you were like, oh, they're calling it propaganda, 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:09.120 but is it propaganda if you know it's not necessarily 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:12.080 true and it just fits your belief Like, what's propaganda? 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:14.000 Straight up and down? What is it? 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:17.160 Right? Propaganda is a communication tactic that is used to 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:21.880 influence people to further some type of agenda, and we 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:25.040 know it works one hundred like almost one hundred percent 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:28.920 of the time. We've seen it work throughout history. Actually, 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:31.040 even when we think about how maps are drawn. We 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:33.640 talked about that in our map episode. Yes, or I 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:37.400 should say cartography. I lend a new word, Russia being 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:40.720 drawn the way that it is, how it's really really large, 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:42.720 Like when you look at a map, it's really big, 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:46.200 it's actually not that big. And that was propaganda that 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:48.840 was put in place a long time ago in order 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:51.400 to make Russia seem like really big, so that they 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:54.200 seemed like a really big threat. Imagine you see this 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:57.160 whole big country, it's taken up so much of the map, 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:00.640 and you're feeling like, oh, these are aggressive or people 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:03.480 that are trying to change your way of life. It 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:05.520 instills a little bit of fear in your heart. Yeah, 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:08.200 that makes sense. And that's not the only place where 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:12.400 we see propaganda at play. This week, we're putting ourselves 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:15.080 under the microscope. We've talked about it before in little 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:18.280 bits and pieces, but right, I think we just got 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:21.200 to say it once and for all. Understanding objectivity or 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:25.040 the perception of it, does not make you immune to bias. 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:29.600 Right, You not too smart to fall for the okie doke. 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:33.720 Okay, never you can have all the number studies, results 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:37.280 and everything else in the world. And you know, all 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:39.560 those tables don't move like a good story does. 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:43.800 You know, look at the Jesse Smole a story. 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.240 Man, what happened there is cause it was like everybody 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:49.160 was behind him and then they were like then they 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:51.760 were like nah, and then everybody's behind him again. 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:53.960 Some people were like, I stand with Jesse. 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.040 And there's a documentary that came out that I have 0:03:57.160 --> 0:03:59.160 not watched yet, but I need to because everybody's saying 0:03:59.160 --> 0:03:59.880 it's really good. 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:02.080 M So we have to find that out. 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:04.640 And you know, I think like when you see something 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:06.320 like that, that's a prime example. 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:07.520 I stand with Jesse. 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:09.800 What would make you put on a shirt to stand 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:12.119 with somebody that you don't even really know? Right? 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:12.520 Right? 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:16.840 But our brain prefers these like anecdotal sensational stories. And 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:21.200 really it's just evolutionary psychology, old brain, old world brain. 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:26.680 It's hijacking current modern day brain. You know, we got 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:29.280 to reset. We need a new operating sys. Listen on our. 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.240 Brain, no upgrades. It is terrible. 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.640 And I think it's interesting because we have a brain 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:38.760 that takes vivid stories, so whether it's rewarding or painful, 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.120 and it don't even have to be rewarding and painful physically. 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.680 It could be socially rewarding or painful. Your brain says 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:48.640 this weighs the most, like this is the most important thing. 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:50.440 This reminds me of Lab thirty eight. 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:51.400 So anxious. 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:53.880 When we had Wendy Suzuki on the show, she talked 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:59.040 about anxiety and how before the anxiety system acted as 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:03.120 a way for us to deter threats out in the wild. 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:04.520 So back in the caveman that. 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:10.080 Yeah, different things like hearing some stuff, wrestling. 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:11.000 I think you were with me. 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:14.720 That was just yesterday, just yesterday, those leaves were blowing 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:15.960 and I was like, what is that. 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:20.359 When we were together? Gonna scare my friend? 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:24.720 Those evolutionary leaps have not occurred yet from my no, 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:26.039 not for any of us. 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:27.159 It'll running from rustling. 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.360 But think about when you see like a silhouette or 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:31.039 you think you see something and you kind of jump. 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:34.120 All of those things, even. 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.320 What feels like social discord, Like even if it feels like, okay, 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:39.360 maybe this person is not having a good time, or 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:41.840 oh they about to start fighting, you know, all those 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.839 things triggered physiological changes in our bodies. And back in 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.360 the day, Like we're saying that bought you time. Okay, 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.240 faster heart rate, I know, to be more attentive. My 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:56.200 muscles are gonna be ready. You know, all that anxiety 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:57.880 system triggered all of that, so you could be like, 0:05:57.920 --> 0:05:59.640 all right, I'm ready to escape if I need to, 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.320 or ready to fight, so fight or flight? Yeah, and 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:05.640 so present day this translates to It might be something 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:08.760 like you get a text message from somebody who's like, oh, 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.479 we need to talk or I need that, which is 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:13.719 what the kids are saying these days, where it's like 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:16.800 be gonna fight, you need that. That's what they say. 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:20.480 Somebody text me, you need that. I'm not responding, no 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:22.520 fight or flight. You're not responding to the text, but 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:23.800 your body is responding. 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:28.680 Mine is freeze, fight or freeze. I'm freezing. 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:31.560 And I think that's so interesting, Like our brains haven't 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:35.200 made the leap, but our environments have so before you 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:38.240 know that kind of thing, it was slow information, nothing 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:41.320 to be alarmed about until there was real threat, and 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:43.760 that worked great for our brains working like that was great. 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:49.599 But now it's constant feedback, constant alerts. Is what's that 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.839 sound outside? Is that the trash been or is that 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.960 an intruder? Like so many things, there's a lot going on, 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:58.560 and I think one of the things that I know 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:02.359 for a fact that I fall victim too is like 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:07.400 availability heuristics. Have you heard of this? Like what is 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.920 most recently available in your mind? Like events that are 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:14.760 easy to recall and that feel emotionally intense, they seem 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:19.200 way more likely than they really are. I have this problem. Okay, 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:23.000 I'm susceptible to this. This is when we started talking about, Hey, 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:24.200 you're not immune to bias. 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:25.480 I'm not immune to this. 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:28.960 If I watch something and they're like, oh and the person, 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:30.840 Now you know. I love a lot of true crime 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:37.600 and false crime too, just fiction. If there is an 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.200 episode of something I watch and there like, oh, and 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:42.400 the body was chopped up and was on a trash 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:44.520 bag in the side of the road. Every time I see 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:46.400 your trash bag, I'm gonna be like, is it body shaped? 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:47.400 What's it looking like? 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.640 You know, it's just like whatever I last saw, And 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:52.360 I'm like, oh, yeah. It's like when people used to 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:54.560 send those emails that would be like don't step outside 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:56.800 the gas station. They under your car, they swiping your 0:07:57.280 --> 0:07:59.800 tearing your achilles steel and all this, and I was like, 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.720 you gotta jump to get in your car. Yeah, it's 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.040 wild and those things still exist. It's not even back 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:08.440 in the day. Like you go on TikTok, you can 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:11.680 find people who say, oh, if you see a piece 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:14.760 of tape on your wheel, it's because they're trying to 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:18.559 traffic you. And hey, that works on me. I'm gonna 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:20.880 start looking at my tires before I get in the 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:23.520 car because all those things make me nervous. Yes, I'm 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:27.239 falling for it, especially when it comes to my safety. Yeah, yes, 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:30.120 I'm falling for it. But I think that's because what 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:33.720 we see is there is some truth there right now, 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:36.280 what the odds are that something like that is happening. 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:40.280 Let's say tape on your car, tape on your car, 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:42.719 that somebody might have had tape on their car and 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:46.240 they got abducted and they were killed. That's a sad story. 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:50.280 Maybe it's too graphic, but also somebody had tape on 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:51.600 their car and it was just to hold that back 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.360 windshield down because they went through the car wash, right, 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:58.200 And what your brain says is, here's this tragic case. 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.880 I remember that and that dominates, like what you think 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:04.480 about and so your risk perception is like, oh nah, 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.319 this is risky tape on here, call the whole lice, 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:11.240 call somebody you know. And even when the information when 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:13.280 it says, hey, crime is really low in your area, 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:17.320 it doesn't matter. Your brain is just subject to this, right, 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:20.360 And that makes me think of our monkey pox episode 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:23.240 where that was Lap seventy six for anybody that's trying 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:25.920 to go back and listen, where we talk about how 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:31.600 sensational headlines how it impacts epidemiology, like showing how intense 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:37.400 or memorable coverage can inflate perceive risk to base rates. 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:41.200 And I remember there was a video that was going 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:45.360 across TikTok and instagram reels of somebody on a New 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:49.000 York train who had like bumps on their skin and 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.080 people were like, look, this person's got monkey pocks. 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.000 That person did not have monkey pocks. 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:56.280 But I did not see a follow up video also 0:09:56.360 --> 0:10:00.440 going viral correcting the story, because the sensational thing is 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:03.960 always gonna catch people's attention, but the correction was never 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:08.040 as sensational. That reminds me, Okay, you said Lap seventy six, 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:10.840 Lab eighty two in your feed where we talked about 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:14.240 social media, and in that lab we unpatch how like 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:17.719 attention hacking or like virality, things that go viral, and 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:20.760 like kind of how your algorithm may be curated. So 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:22.880 you're gonna see the things that other people are like, 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:24.080 Oh my goodness, let me share. 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:24.520 You can see. 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:26.280 Sometimes I see stuff and I'm like, this is wild. 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:31.000 I see how many little envelope paper envelope paper presser. Yeah, 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:35.160 I'm like, people are sharing this. And so then you 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:37.920 layer that things being shared and pushed in the front 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:40.560 of your algorithm or the top of your feed, layer 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:44.760 that on top of that, recall, right, And so it 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:48.040 makes those top of mind stories that have the sensational 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:51.240 thing about them they feel even more common or true 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:53.360 because also when you tell it, somebody's like, yes, I 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.600 saw that too, right, And it just confirms it in 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.440 your mind even though I know these things. I think 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:03.320 back to Lap thirty seven in Denial where we had 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:06.360 doctor Gil Sinatras and Barber Hope Ford. 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:08.760 That was such a good episode. I love that one. 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:11.480 And they talked about why like these kind of vivid 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:15.520 narratives and beat tables and charts. I don't want to 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:21.560 look at tables and charts. I want a real with animation. Okay, right, 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:26.000 And I think that's how anecdotes that you hear steer 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:44.800 your judgment more so than like comprehensive evidence. These last 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:47.800 few episodes over the past few weeks have just been 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:52.480 showing me more and more how I am a victim 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:55.560 to this brain and body. So already my brain is ancient. 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:59.400 You said it had made evolutionary leaps. Now I didn't 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:01.439 hear you say that yours hadn't made evolutionary leaps. So 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:02.680 I don't know how to feel about it. 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:05.680 You know what, To be fair, mine hasn't either. 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:08.240 Mine has not either, because let me tell you, I 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:12.160 will jump six feet into the air if I hear 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:16.120 something while I'm sleeping, and it'll just be my dog's 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:17.480 toenails on the ground. 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:20.400 The other way. 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:25.559 Okay, I'm jumping to conclusions, all right, swan diving into them, 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.880 like if you said this, then it must mean you 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.840 think this. And so all of this really makes me 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:35.520 think about what's been going on recently with this whole 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:42.280 Acetamenafin Talanov situation, you know, and how that this can 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:50.600 lead to a lot of misinformation going viral and really hurting. 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:51.240 A lot of people. 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:55.080 Yeah, so if you haven't seen this in the news, 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:57.680 which I'm pretty sure you have. 0:12:58.360 --> 0:12:59.400 So RFK. 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:03.320 Junior is the Secretary of Health and Human Services, and 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:08.360 he recently put out an alert that basically said that 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:13.800 pregnant people should not be taking talanaw when they're pregnant 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:18.480 to reduce their fever because it leads to autism in 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:21.760 the child, which there's no proof of that. And so 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:24.920 there's there's two things. There's two things that I'm just 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.719 like jumped out of me at first, which I'm like, 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:33.520 Talinow's a brand, right, explain that for people that don't 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:37.800 understand that don't know. Talanaw is a branch of a 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:43.800 company that creates medicine Aceta menafin. Talanaw is the brand. 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:47.160 It's like Kleenex, you know what I mean. Kleenex is 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:50.800 the brand, but the product is tissue. The product is tissue, 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:55.000 like for blowing your nose, and it's just or what's 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:57.760 another and if that's good? Because if blowing your nose 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:00.800 was bad, you wouldn't say don't just use clean, you 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.400 would say don't use tissue to blow. 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:05.280 Your nose, exactly exactly. 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:09.320 And so using talanol as the word that we are 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:13.520 using is it just lacks all scientific integrity on its 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:17.480 face because of that. But if we're talking about a 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:21.200 sea of menafin that pregnant people use if they get 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:25.400 sick when they're pregnant to reduce their fever, because when 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:30.040 you are pregnant, you are carrying a baby in your belly. 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:33.040 If you get a fever and it goes too high, 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:39.360 it can potentially like really damage your fetus. And so 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:41.920 what pregnant people do is take talan all to make 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:44.200 sure that they keep their body temperature low so that 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.600 they don't have any adverse effects on the baby that 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:51.200 they're carrying. And so telling folks not to do that 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.960 is one going to incite a lot of fear in 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:57.920 the people who already have been doing that or the 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:00.160 people who feel like they have to do that and 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:02.600 are not sure what they could do to make their 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:05.880 temperature go down. But then you're also hearing things from 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.000 the current president of the United States saying you gotta 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:14.239 like tough it out. That's not how that works. It's 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:19.600 not an issue of toughness at all. And so, and 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:23.400 when we're talking about biases and falling for the okie dog, 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:27.560 this is coming from the highest office in the land. 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:30.200 And it's scary. Yeah, it is. 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:36.040 I think it's so interesting, like where people draw the line. 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.680 You know, there are some things and people are like, oh, 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:42.160 I see where they're going, or that's not for me. 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.760 This what do you think we're seeing there with Talanow? 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:48.080 Do you think it's just oh, people already had something 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.760 against Talanow before. You think it's fear? Do you think 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:53.800 it's like I think it's fear, and it's tapping into 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.000 the fear of fear that a lot of people have 0:15:56.160 --> 0:16:01.120 about the health and wellness of their kids. Yeah, because 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.960 autism is something that people are like, there was an 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:04.920 autism back in my day. 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:06.640 Yes, there was. They just didn't have a way of 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:08.040 diagnosing it and. 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:10.040 Or a name to call it, or. 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:10.880 A name to call it. 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:12.960 You know, you know, you might have said, oh, so 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:15.320 and so is a little bit special, a little bit different. 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.760 We didn't have the vocabulary, the words, the classifications that 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:23.280 we have now. And they're looking for a silver bullet 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:25.240 is not the right term, but a scapegoat is the 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:27.680 right term. They're looking for a scapegoat so that they 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:30.120 could say this is the reason why, Okay, we'll just 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:31.920 stay away from that, so people can feel a sense 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:35.680 of like comfort from that. Yes, and that's not wise. 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.640 It's just not wise at all because it doesn't get 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:42.240 to the fact. And the more we wave our hands 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:44.200 and say, okay, it's probably a seed of menafin, it's 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:47.320 a set of menafit. And he's also pulling funds away 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.400 from research. You see where I'm going like, this is 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.920 dangerous territory because like you're putting out things that have 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:58.360 not been proved scientifically, but then not funding the science 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:01.640 that can get us too actual fact. I think this 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:05.720 is really interesting because there feels like multiple things at play. 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:12.200 You know, you mentioned statements about things that haven't been proved, 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:17.479 and I think even if there are things that have 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:21.679 weak associations, you know, we've talked about causation and correlation 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:25.720 being different, and I think another thing that we know 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:27.920 about these brains is like they like to hold one story. 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:30.240 They don't like to hold multiple things. So even as 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:32.520 if we think back to what we saw at the 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:34.320 top of twenty twenty when we were trying to make 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:37.679 sense of a global pandemic, our brains don't like to 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:41.160 hold multiple things. And so when you give someone a 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.280 single storyline. That's a lot neaterer. That's a lot easier 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:49.840 to think. And also when you layer social components on 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:53.080 top of it, like, well, if this comes from someone 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:55.359 who is part of this political party, if I am 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:58.480 part of this political party, then I believe this thing. Right, 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.199 you can really think about think and not even just 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:04.280 group think. Is like when you go along with the crowd. 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.920 This is like group identity, Like my identity is tied 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:11.760 to this. I am a person who because I believe 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:13.800 these other things, then I must believe this. And I 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.880 think we are seeing more and more over time these 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:19.760 odd things that are tied to group identity, Like I 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:22.240 feel like group identity used to be like we celebrate 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.840 Christmas or we don't, you know what I mean, And 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:30.560 now it's tied to I wear an American flag pin 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:33.480 or I don't and or I put a stick room 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:35.159 this kind of stick room on my car or I 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:35.760 don't like. 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:37.600 It's all these little tiny things that. 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:41.560 Feel so yeah, abstract and UNRELI how is that related 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:42.280 to identity? 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:42.480 You know? 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:45.359 And then I think when something else that you said 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:47.920 about in the case of a sentiment offin that felt 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:50.119 really interesting to me, reminded me of what we talked 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.080 about with Lindsay A Joe who did our episode on pain, 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.760 and she talked about the expectation of relief. So if 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:58.399 I tell you, hey, that's what it is, so you 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:00.840 won't have to worry about this anymore, whether that's true 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:03.720 or not, if you expect that, Hey, when I don't 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:06.080 take a see of minifit, I don't have to worry 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:10.760 about this thing that gives you immediate relief in your brain, 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:12.760 your brain can start to think about like, Okay, well 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:14.480 I can stop worrying about that. I can worry about 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:16.880 something else. And I think for some. 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:19.280 People that may feel good. I know, I like to 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:22.639 take task off my plate, just clear it. 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:35.760 I don't want to see it control all the league. 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.400 What you're saying completely lines up when we start talking 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:43.919 about crime, when we see people that are saying like 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:46.680 whether or not we need you know, these different groups 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:48.560 showing up in these various. 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:49.680 Cities that we've been seeing recently. 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:51.800 When we talk about health, when we talk about it, 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:54.320 see the minifit, access to vaccines, this and that, like 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:57.119 all of those things, we see these same kind of 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:01.240 thought processes and cognitive biases playing out. And another place 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:03.160 where we see that that we don't talk about often 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:05.840 on this show, but something happened recently and we got 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:06.240 to talk about. 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:10.760 It is religion. That is very true, very true. 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:13.840 We know that religion could be very sensitive for a 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.479 lot of people, which makes it. But recently there's been 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:20.840 some virality around people thinking that the rapture was upon them. So, 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:23.840 for those of you who don't know in Christianity, I'm 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:26.800 not sure which or which branches of Christianity, but I'll 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:31.359 say Christianity as the big umbrella that the rapture is. 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:36.000 When Jesus decides to come back, he takes the souls 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:38.680 of all of his believers to heaven and leaves behind 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:42.080 the non believers. And so people were saying that there 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:44.880 are signs that this is going to happen. Even though 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:47.119 in the Bible it says that nobody will know the 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:49.480 time or day that the raptor has happened, these folks 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:51.160 said that they did know the time and the day, 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:56.480 and people were selling their cars, they were getting rid 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:59.480 of their apartments, they were getting rid of all of 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:04.840 their worldly possessions waiting for the rapture that did not come. 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:11.200 I think that is another prime example of group identity. 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:14.560 You know, it's hard for me to reconcile. It's easy 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:17.399 actually now that we're talking about to step away and 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:19.800