Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts bring you the ultimate Summer of Love Tree.
Speaker 1: This is famously Available. Welcome back to Famously Available as
Speaker 1: your host Ben Higgins, and if you missed part one
Speaker 1: of this episode, be sure to go back and listen.
Speaker 1: I've en listened to the help of the incredible psychologist,
Speaker 1: doctor Hillary gold Scher to really go in deep with Deanna.
Speaker 1: Therapy is amazing and beneficial in so many ways, but
Speaker 1: I think pretty crucial when we are on the path
Speaker 1: of finding love and learning to love ourselves. I'm excited
Speaker 1: to hear more from this conversation, so let's dive back in.
Speaker 2: I continue to talk about my marriage because it's the
Speaker 2: freshest on my mind and it was my longest relationship
Speaker 2: that I've ever been in, and there were lots of
Speaker 2: things right. We were on the cycle, that toxic cycle,
Speaker 2: and we just towards the end, we just couldn't get off.
Speaker 2: We just could not hop off the cycle. There was
Speaker 2: no and there I personally, I could not get to
Speaker 2: a place anymore of being able to change the way
Speaker 2: I said something, or to be soft anymore, to be
Speaker 2: soft anymore. It felt exhausting to me. I am an
Speaker 2: overthinker in general. I can overthink. Overthinking, I can take
Speaker 2: one thought internet eight way sideways in a matter of seconds.
Speaker 2: And to sit in places where I didn't feel seen
Speaker 2: or heard created a boiling point for me. It was
Speaker 2: not a very healthy space for me to sit in.
Speaker 2: If my partner needed time to process or time to
Speaker 2: cool down, that time that they needed was a boiling
Speaker 2: point for me because I would sit in a moment
Speaker 2: of just overthinking and explosive, explosive, there was no soft
Speaker 2: left to me.
Speaker 3: My go to.
Speaker 2: Place to react is to be hard, is to be strong,
Speaker 2: because vulnerability is very scary for me, and rightfully so,
Speaker 2: in a lot of places, my vulnerability has been used
Speaker 2: against me and by people that I have loved very deeply.
Speaker 2: So vulnerability is not very easy for me. And so
Speaker 2: instead of coming from a place and being like hey,
Speaker 2: I really love you, I don't want to fight over this,
Speaker 2: how can I be better at this situation? To me,
Speaker 2: and I cannot even lie in this moment, it sounds
Speaker 2: really awful for anyone listening to me. That feels weak,
Speaker 2: like I'm being a little bitch about it, you.
Speaker 3: Know, And I hate that. I hate that.
Speaker 2: But it's so interesting because with my children, I can
Speaker 2: do that with my children. Hi, I hear that you're
Speaker 2: upset right now. I feel that you're really upset. Please
Speaker 2: tell me what's coming up for you. And I have
Speaker 2: that with the utmost care and rational thinking, and I
Speaker 2: mean it. I mean it. But I have a real
Speaker 2: struggle with doing that for a grown man.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm sure there's an intersection of factors. One,
Speaker 4: as I alluded to earlier, a trauma response. If you've
Speaker 4: had wounds around people that you trusted, hurting you, abandoning you,
Speaker 4: taking advantage of you vulnerability, it becomes a fight or
Speaker 4: flight moment. And so one of the ways it sounds
Speaker 4: like that your body has habituated to that fight or
Speaker 4: flight is getting hard, you know, So it's protective mode,
Speaker 4: and it's when you think about it, it's you might
Speaker 4: not like that I say this, but it's sweet that
Speaker 4: it's sad, you know, because underneath that is a wounded
Speaker 4: kid who doesn't want to be hurt again, right, And
Speaker 4: having a lot of empathy and compassion for that person
Speaker 4: feels so critical, you know, for that little person that
Speaker 4: you know, trusted and got heard. And I think if
Speaker 4: we can septualize it that way, That's why it's easy
Speaker 4: to do that for your kiddos, you know, because it's
Speaker 4: so easy to see them that way, and it's so
Speaker 4: hard to see yourself that way. But the more you're
Speaker 4: able to integrate that that's a.
Speaker 3: Part of you. Obviously it's not all of you. Look
Speaker 3: at how you move through the world. You know that
Speaker 3: that's not the case.
Speaker 4: But it's a part of you, and that when you
Speaker 4: feel vulnerable and sad, that's as you know, valid as
Speaker 4: any of the other feelings that you have. And that
Speaker 4: trauma response, I imagine has led you astray in some moments,
Speaker 4: which is that you show up in a way you
Speaker 4: don't feel good about, you know. And so it's interesting
Speaker 4: I alluded to it before, but that distinction between aggression
Speaker 4: and advocacy is so important, and that younger part of
Speaker 4: you might think that aggression is the way to go,
Speaker 4: that's where you get all your power.
Speaker 2: Two females talking to each other. I have a love
Speaker 2: hate relationship with it, and I'm hoping that anyone who
Speaker 2: is listening to us today relates to this. Okay, I'm
Speaker 2: a woman and I want to advocate for myself and
Speaker 2: what I believe in. But then I'm a fucking bitch
Speaker 2: because I did right, or or I'm a door mat.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, I'm a door mat. I let it sweep
Speaker 2: under the rug because I don't want to be viewed
Speaker 2: as a bitch because I stood up for what I
Speaker 2: believed in and then you know who suffers is me?
Speaker 2: So what is the fine line to teeter there? And
Speaker 2: I'm not just asking for myself. I feel like a
Speaker 2: really great relationship with a lot of the listeners and
Speaker 2: the women that follow me on social media, and they
Speaker 2: share these same things with me, because the truth is
Speaker 2: is like I feel those things myself. What is the
Speaker 2: fine line to teeter there? Because right, I'm not trying
Speaker 2: to be a bitch, but because I'm a woman and
Speaker 2: I speak up for myself, well then i'm too much.
Speaker 2: So what is the fine line there?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I mean, of course there isn't like a perfect calculation,
Speaker 4: and what I'm about to say might feel like a
Speaker 4: cop up, but hang with me. I think mostly the
Speaker 4: fine line is going to be felt internally because I
Speaker 4: think we know when we're in advocacy mode, when we're grounded,
Speaker 4: when we're clear in our communication, and when we're standing
Speaker 4: up for what we know is right, and when we've
Speaker 4: sort of moved in to territory where we're being more
Speaker 4: defensive and looking to wound someone else right, I think
Speaker 4: we often know where it's crossed over. So I would
Speaker 4: say looking internally for like that uncomfortable feeling of like, ooh,
Speaker 4: I'm not feeling so good about this is one piece
Speaker 4: to keep in mind. The other sort of guiding tenants
Speaker 4: that I like to think of is being able to
Speaker 4: state what you want, what your expectation is, but doing
Speaker 4: it in a digestible way.
Speaker 3: What does that mean. It means like keeping.
Speaker 4: A neutral tone, using clear words, and trying to think
Speaker 4: about speaking to someone with respect even if we wildly
Speaker 4: disagree or even if they're in the middle of hurting us.
Speaker 4: Because to me, from a clinical and personal standpoint, there's
Speaker 4: nothing more empowering than staying in calm and groundedness and
Speaker 4: integrity even when you're upset and so being able to say,
Speaker 4: I won't let you speak to me that way.
Speaker 3: It's not happening. Now.
Speaker 4: You can either adjust and reset and try again, or
Speaker 4: I'm leaving to me. That's advocacy. I mean, those are
Speaker 4: strong words and creating a boundary for like I'm not
Speaker 4: letting anyone. I am not talking about letting someone disrespect
Speaker 4: you or treat you in a way that is outside
Speaker 4: of your value, absolutely not. But I am talking about
Speaker 4: like delivering that message in a calm, clear way to
Speaker 4: the extent possible whenever possible. And it's it's ultimately for us, really,
Speaker 4: I mean sure, it's sort of the quote right thing
Speaker 4: to do to the person in front of us. I mean,
Speaker 4: they may be awful, but we feel more grounded when
Speaker 4: we stay in that centered place inside of us, and
Speaker 4: then it carries through to other aspects of our life
Speaker 4: because when we become disregulated into the like aggressive aggression part,
Speaker 4: we just don't feel like ourselves. We feel disassembled and disempowered.
Speaker 4: And I feel like we I mean men and women
Speaker 4: alike often mistake aggression for power when it actually ends
Speaker 4: up feeling disempowering. We feel shame and eventually paralysis. But
Speaker 4: when we stay in advocacy.
Speaker 3: Probably that is what I like to call it, much.
Speaker 2: More playing spoken right, like an out of body experience
Speaker 2: to that point of compressed regulation.
Speaker 4: Yes, and I want to say this because those listening
Speaker 4: and this is an obvious next question, which is like okay, great,
Speaker 4: that sounds super aspirational, But what about when I don't,
Speaker 4: Because we're all not going to At times, we're all
Speaker 4: going to get triggered, we're all going to have a
Speaker 4: trauma response. Someone's going to be really, really awful one
Speaker 4: too many times, and we show up in a way
Speaker 4: that we don't feel good about. And I love to
Speaker 4: always say that we can always go back, right, We
Speaker 4: can always go back, even if the person has heard us,
Speaker 4: even if we're deciding we're not wanting to be with
Speaker 4: that person anymore, we can still say for our sake
Speaker 4: less than for their some version of like what I
Speaker 4: was saying earlier, because I love this phrasing, you know,
Speaker 4: like my message was on point, like not changing anything
Speaker 4: about what I was trying to convey to you, but
Speaker 4: I don't like the way said it, and you know,
Speaker 4: I want to take responsibility for that.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. I'm sorry for it.
Speaker 4: I was out of integrity, I was like out of
Speaker 4: how I wanted to show up.
Speaker 3: And that's about us.
Speaker 4: And the more we do that, the more we kind
Speaker 4: of cobble together a sense of self that is very
Speaker 4: grounding and that we can return to again and again
Speaker 4: as like a safe haven internally, we don't feel as
Speaker 4: safe when we ourselves are so dysregulated or aggressive. It
Speaker 4: just doesn't feel as safe to be inside our skin.
Speaker 4: So I like to like advocate for this as a
Speaker 4: self advocacy proposition. It's not for the other, and so
Speaker 4: that's why the conceptualization doesn't change in terms of how
Speaker 4: bad the other is.
Speaker 3: It's really for us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, I love everything that you said, but I
Speaker 2: am also going to know that it's way easier said
Speaker 2: than done.
Speaker 3: Exactly why just say what I said, right?
Speaker 5: And sometimes I get just exhausted with myself because I
Speaker 5: feel like I do so much work on me and
Speaker 5: I do so much work on my healing because I
Speaker 5: really want to be healthy and well for myself, for
Speaker 5: my children, for hopefully another relationship.
Speaker 2: That I get exhausted with the amount of work I
Speaker 2: do on myself. And then you know what else, I
Speaker 2: say this all the time. I get exhausted with being
Speaker 2: the only person doing the work at every turn, doing
Speaker 2: all of the therapy, doing all of the things because
Speaker 2: I want to be better. It becomes exhausting to have
Speaker 2: to deal with people who are not also putting in
Speaker 2: the time and effort. But I wanted to. I know,
Speaker 2: we have a few minutes left, and I'm just so
Speaker 2: grateful that you did this. I was joking with Heather,
Speaker 2: our producer, because she was like, we only have this
Speaker 2: amount of time, and I was like, we all know
Speaker 2: I can talk to a wall, I could do this,
Speaker 2: so we will have to have you back because I
Speaker 2: love stuff like this and I find them so healing
Speaker 2: and so helpful. But it's obviously a dating podcast, and
Speaker 2: that's the place where I am in my life, and
Speaker 2: I didn't I didn't date for some time. I've been
Speaker 2: divorced for and not with my ex husband for some time,
Speaker 2: and I really spent some space with myself trying to heal.
Speaker 2: I knew that I was as a whole. Therefore I
Speaker 2: could not possibly take on anyone else. And I do
Speaker 2: like to do that. I like to give my full
Speaker 2: self to any relationship. And I don't just mean with
Speaker 2: the opposite sex. I mean in friendships or with my
Speaker 2: family or anybody else. And so I knew that there
Speaker 2: was a lot of work to be done. And now
Speaker 2: that I am moving into that space of wanting to
Speaker 2: find someone, I'm dealing with two things here. Hey, there's
Speaker 2: the frustration with my God, I'm like, Okay, when is
Speaker 2: it going to happen for me?
Speaker 3: Lord?
Speaker 2: And I'm not alone. I imagine many women say that,
Speaker 2: But I am asking you and for everyone else listening,
Speaker 2: who's there with me? How do we do this the
Speaker 2: dating piece and not make the same mistake twice? I
Speaker 2: don't ever want to relive what I have gone through again.
Speaker 2: I don't want to make the same mistake twice, and
Speaker 2: I don't think I will because I learn and I grow.
Speaker 2: But like, what can I do moving into a dating space?
Speaker 2: And maybe I preface that way with I'm not looking
Speaker 2: to be someone's side piece. I'm not looking to casually
Speaker 2: date for fun. I'm not looking for just a sexual
Speaker 2: based relationship. I'm looking for someone to share life with,
Speaker 2: to do life with. I am looking for a partner.
Speaker 2: That's what I really want, And so I'm hoping maybe
Speaker 2: you could share with me, how do I not make
Speaker 2: the same mistakes twice? How can I do this and
Speaker 2: find a really wonderful, valuable relationship next?
Speaker 4: I love this question so again to think about it.
Speaker 4: Macro and micro. That advocacy piece that we were just
Speaker 4: talking about applies here on the macro basis don't be
Speaker 4: afraid to say what it is you're looking for and
Speaker 4: what it is you want when you're on dates, when
Speaker 4: you're vetting, when you're getting to know someone. I mean,
Speaker 4: obviously we're not going to open with like, HI want
Speaker 4: to get married and I want this kind of relationship,
Speaker 4: but quickly, I mean, Gabe two three starting to talk
Speaker 4: about I'm in a phase. I'm in a season of
Speaker 4: my life where I just know myself. I know who
Speaker 4: I am, I know what I want, and like, I
Speaker 4: want a relationship that has death. I want a relationship
Speaker 4: that has that is with someone that's interested in emotional
Speaker 4: intimacy and like, you know, working through stuff, like cares
Speaker 4: about what our communication looks like, like not afraid to
Speaker 4: say it's gonna say it out loud that like doesn't
Speaker 4: resonate cool, like let's let's finish our coffee, and like
Speaker 4: wish each other well.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: There's something that is both grounding about that kind of advocacy,
Speaker 4: and most men report that there's something very attractive about
Speaker 4: a woman being able to speak her truth that way
Speaker 4: with confidence and sounds cliche, but if someone hears you
Speaker 4: speak a version of this and is scared off or
Speaker 4: turned off. I mean, obviously that wouldn't.
Speaker 3: Be your person.
Speaker 4: You really want someone who hears this from you and
Speaker 4: is intrigued and interested and wants to and wants to
Speaker 4: hear and know. More So, being an advocate for what
Speaker 4: you want and feeling confident like you have a right
Speaker 4: to do so is really important. I think it's important
Speaker 4: to believe people when they say things. So if someone
Speaker 4: seems confused when you talk about what I just was
Speaker 4: alluding to, or directly says like, yeah, you know, I've
Speaker 4: never been in therapy, or like I had never really
Speaker 4: thought about that, or that's not exactly my kind of thing,
Speaker 4: but maybe believe what they say. If that doesn't resonate,
Speaker 4: if they reflect on the fact that that isn't kind
Speaker 4: of where they've been in the past or what their
Speaker 4: particular focus is on, believe them. We have a responsibility,
Speaker 4: given that word like managing our love life with intention,
Speaker 4: to pay attention to those things, and that can mean
Speaker 4: walking away from potential. But if you're looking for something
Speaker 4: to be different, you have to do something differently, and
Speaker 4: so you really have to be present to what people
Speaker 4: are saying and believe them and turn the other way
Speaker 4: when it's not aligned. I mean, it's not that black
Speaker 4: and white or dichotomous, of course, often, but when it is,
Speaker 4: pay attention to it.
Speaker 2: Dating is exhausting. Relationships are exhausting. The things that you
Speaker 2: have to consciously think of to make sure you're getting
Speaker 2: what you want and your needs are met, as well
Speaker 2: as caring for another human being and making sure their
Speaker 2: needs are met and that you're in a really a
Speaker 2: good place enough to do so. It truly is exhausting.
Speaker 4: It takes up The other thing I was going to
Speaker 4: say is kind of on the micro level is mindfulness,
Speaker 4: which is to your point why it's so exhausting.
Speaker 5: It is, Am I mindful?
Speaker 2: Am I all healed? And I'm going to be.
Speaker 4: Okay, Well that what you're asking is actually a good
Speaker 4: springboard for me to say what I was going to say,
Speaker 4: which might sound further exhausting. But to your point that
Speaker 4: you were saying at the beginning, it's not dichotomous. It's
Speaker 4: not like I'm healed and now I'm done right. It's
Speaker 4: a lifelong pursuit to be aware of how we're moving
Speaker 4: through the world and how we show up affects other people,
Speaker 4: and to be open to feedback and to stand outside
Speaker 4: of our feelings and advocate for them and talk about them,
Speaker 4: and to take responsibility in terms of how we affect
Speaker 4: other people. It's an ongoing pursuit, and so I always
Speaker 4: hesitant when people try to think about it. Am I
Speaker 4: am I ready? Am I healed? It's not an unworthy
Speaker 4: set of questions to ask oneself, but it's really an
Speaker 4: ongoing thing. And so I think the mindfulness piece of
Speaker 4: like how am I showing up? And how do I
Speaker 4: feel about it? And when I show up in a
Speaker 4: way that I don't feel good about instead of like
Speaker 4: feeling ashamed and then kind of suppressing or ignoring it,
Speaker 4: like really looking at it, Oh, I got kind of
Speaker 4: just regulated there.
Speaker 3: When do what happen? Like what was going on for me?
Speaker 4: What trauma response, what vulnerability was coming up for me?
Speaker 4: And like how might I do that differently next time?
Speaker 4: You have to continuously, bravely interact with those parts of
Speaker 4: yourself that are like wounded or scared or afraid or
Speaker 4: shut down or do get dysregulated. That's all of us,
Speaker 4: by the way, So if we're not building a relationship
Speaker 4: with those hard parts of ourselves, it's going to be
Speaker 4: harder to show up the way that we want to
Speaker 4: in a relationship. So the mindfulness is a key part
Speaker 4: as you're going through.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you said that, because there is
Speaker 2: a moment where I get a little frustrated with myself
Speaker 2: and I think, Okay, my little daddy issues, right, my abandonment.
Speaker 2: Stuff that's not going to carry me into the next relationship,
Speaker 2: is not going to go with me. But the truth
Speaker 2: of the matter is some of those things are deep wounds.
Speaker 2: And I am a visual person, and I say this
Speaker 2: in a sense of like when you look at a
Speaker 2: scar on your body, the scar is there, it's never
Speaker 2: going to leave. Right, there is a scar here. It's
Speaker 2: always going to be there. It's never going to leave.
Speaker 2: And that is the truth of what is deep in
Speaker 2: my soul. There are scars there. Those things happen to me.
Speaker 2: They can be really beautiful, but they can also get
Speaker 2: hold of me at times to and take over. And
Speaker 2: those are things, good and bad that I do carry
Speaker 2: into every other relationship. And I'm only saying this out
Speaker 2: loud to you because I have to tell myself, and
Speaker 2: maybe I'm telling this little girl that needs to be
Speaker 2: nurtured is like I don't need to be ashamed of
Speaker 2: those things, right, And I was carrying so much and
Speaker 2: was shamed so much for these trauma things that I
Speaker 2: brought up. That the truth is, and tell me if
Speaker 2: I'm wrong, doctor Hillary, But like, the truth is, I
Speaker 2: don't have to be ashamed of these things. I have scars,
Speaker 2: I have things that I have taken from every relationship
Speaker 2: that will go with me into other ones. And there
Speaker 2: is beauty in that.
Speaker 4: Correct the ultimate and self advocacy. What you're doing right now,
Speaker 4: I actually I got the chills. Yes, yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 4: I mean the more we build a relationship with those
Speaker 4: parts of ourselves, I mean, like a strong, loving relationship
Speaker 4: with those parts of ourselves, not just be like okay,
Speaker 4: I guess be around, but like come closer, come in,
Speaker 4: let me hold you. As we move through integration, that
Speaker 4: those are parts of ourselves that we are going to
Speaker 4: have to care for, love, manage, and sometimes they're going
Speaker 4: to be in the driver's seat and we're going to
Speaker 4: gently be like, oops, you ended up in the driver's seat.
Speaker 4: I'm not supposed to drive anymore. So I'm gonna generally
Speaker 4: like put you in the back and take over again. Right,
Speaker 4: So owning that, like, yes, I have parts of myself
Speaker 4: that parts of myself that are wounded, and parts of
Speaker 4: myself that will feel easily abandoned or easily dismissed. And
Speaker 4: those are things I have to watch and I have
Speaker 4: to manage. But I'm not shaming them when they come up. No,
Speaker 4: I expect them to come up, So I greet them
Speaker 4: with kindness, and I welcome them in. I try to
Speaker 4: get to know them better and help them heal. Like
Speaker 4: when of your kiddos came and said they were in
Speaker 4: pain about something that happened at school, you wouldn't be like,
Speaker 4: are you still talking about that? You know still that
Speaker 4: happened yesterday, that happened last year. You would hold space
Speaker 4: for as long as it hurts. And it's the same thing,
Speaker 4: you know exponentially with trauma. So expecting those things to
Speaker 4: come up and holding it lovingly rather than with shame
Speaker 4: changes everything, because the minute we apply shame to those
Speaker 4: parts of ourselves, it gets suppressed and we go into
Speaker 4: like a paralysis, and we then we have no choices,
Speaker 4: and so then we get stuck in those responses we
Speaker 4: don't feel good about, as opposed to like, yeah, there
Speaker 4: that is again, and I'm going to make amends if
Speaker 4: that part of me hurts someone else, and then I'm
Speaker 4: going to take good care of it and decide, like
Speaker 4: what would advocacy look like in this moment, and like
Speaker 4: keep trying, keep practicing.
Speaker 3: That's human.
Speaker 2: Wow, it's the dirty things. I call them, the dirty things,
Speaker 2: the shame, the guilt, the fear, the shame, the guilt
Speaker 2: and fear. And I am one and then I can
Speaker 2: old speak for myself, but I am one who leads
Speaker 2: with those things. So thank you for saying that. Thank
Speaker 2: you for right. I don't want to feel like a
Speaker 2: broken little girl. I don't want anyone else to feel
Speaker 2: like a broken little girl.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: We each have a story and we get to take
Speaker 2: that and hope we learn and grow from it. So
Speaker 2: I'm just really grateful for the conversation with you, a
Speaker 2: joke with Heather. She knows me well, like we need
Speaker 2: a whole afternoon.
Speaker 3: I'm all all.
Speaker 2: The healing, you know, and I'm sure they're just like
Speaker 2: it's time for you to shut your mouth now. I'm
Speaker 2: really really grateful, doctor Halery. Thank you for doing this,
Speaker 2: thank you for taking the time to talk with me.
Speaker 2: And we really should record again because there's just so
Speaker 2: many nuggets of truth, and we can't possibly do this
Speaker 2: in a forty five minute time period. And I'm grateful
Speaker 2: for you and your knowledge and therapy. I am an
Speaker 2: advocate for mental and emotional wellbeing, and I'm grateful for
Speaker 2: people who can do that. So I think if we've
Speaker 2: taken anything from this is that I can be a
Speaker 2: licensed therapist.
Speaker 3: I think that's clearly the conclusion. Yes, clearly. Well, thank
Speaker 3: you for being so.
Speaker 4: Vulnerable because it allows us to talk about things that
Speaker 4: are hard to talk about and people don't always get
Speaker 4: to be like a witness to these kinds of dialogues,
Speaker 4: you know, So I really appreciate your candor.
Speaker 3: Thanks. Thank you so nice to stay it with you today.
Speaker 3: Thank you you too. Thanks all right, having your time
Speaker 3: all right byeye.
Speaker 1: Nie, it's been jumping back in here. Wow, Doctor Hillary,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being a part of this conversation. Deanna.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for opening up on another level
Speaker 1: to our listeners who also might be in your situation,
Speaker 1: but also allowing yourself to be incredibly vulnerable in this
Speaker 1: journey with us. We'll be back with more famously available
Speaker 1: very soon.