1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class. A production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio Happy Friday. 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 2: I'm Tracy B. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. 4 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 1: We talked about frost fairs on the River Thames, and boy, 5 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: so we've talked about I grew up in North Carolina. 6 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 2: I grew up on the North Carolina Piedmont. 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: A place where it could get cold enough for a 8 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: still body of water, probably not. 9 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: A moving one, but like a pond. 10 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: A pond could maybe freeze over, not enough to be 11 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: safe to walk on. So walking on a frozen body 12 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: of water was one of the things that my mother 13 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: taught me I could I should never ever ever do, 14 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: because I could fall through the ice and die. And 15 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: this caused some culture shock for me when I moved 16 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 1: to Massachusetts. And like, there's a lot of places in Massachusetts. 17 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about one in a second. There 18 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: are a lot of places in Massachusetts where bodies of 19 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: water used to get frozen enough on a regular basis 20 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: to skate on and walk on. We have a whole 21 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: episode where we talk about Frederick Tudor cutting ice out 22 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: of New England ponds and selling it to people like 23 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: that was a whole thing. It's a lot warmer. Now, 24 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: it's not really as possible. But the first time I 25 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: was walking through Boston Common and there were people skating 26 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: on the frog Pond just terrify you. 27 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 2: I just I had a moment of terror. 28 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: I don't think the frog Pond is very deep at all, 29 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: and it is also like maintained as a skating service, but. 30 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 2: I had, Yeah, I just had this moment. It was like, 31 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 2: all of you need to get off of the ice. 32 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: Also, when I originally envisioned this episode, I was thinking 33 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: about talking about other temporary frozen things, frozen festivals, festivals 34 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: on frozen bodies of water. And one reason was because 35 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: I knew about this thing that ran in the Boston 36 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: Daily Globe on January ninth of nineteen twenty five. Here 37 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: is the headline, Heard fifty thousand a shore that's heard 38 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: HRD like we're herding cats. Heard fifty thousand ashore fearing 39 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: a disaster, Police cleared Jamaica pond of merrymakers when Mayer 40 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: sees ice threatens to give way. Warning given by water 41 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: abrupt end to cities annual carnival firemen helped to draw 42 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: crowd skating races provide good sports. 43 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 2: That all that was headline, and. 44 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: Then this article starts. More than fifty thousand young people 45 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: were in the midst of a perfect evening of skating 46 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: on Jamaica Pond last night at the annual Ice Carnival 47 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: of the City of Boston, when suddenly, about nine thirty o'clock, 48 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: nearly fifty policemen appeared and ordered everyone off the ice. 49 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: Mayor Curly, who had just arrived at the carnival to 50 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: give out the prizes and the various contests, quickly noticed 51 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 1: that large black patches of water had appeared about the pond. 52 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: Fearing that the ice, softened by the warmth of the 53 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: last few days, was about to collapse under the weight 54 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: of humanity it was bearing and precipitate the merry thousands 55 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: to their deaths, he ordered the police to clear the pond. 56 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: This did not wind up being about other frost festivals 57 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: and other places. It was just about London. And we 58 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: also didn't mention how these these have appeared in various 59 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: pop culture. There are some London Frost Fair scenes in 60 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:52,279 Speaker 1: Virginia Wolf's Orlando m HM, and at least two episodes 61 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: of Doctor Who which I have not watched. All of 62 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: the episodes of Doctor Who. There's like a chunk of 63 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: them that I missed some point, Like, apparently these are 64 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: interconnected the stories that are told about, yet like and 65 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: there are in totally different seasons. 66 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: Of the show, as I understand it. 67 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: I also, the more TV I watched, the less I 68 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: remember any of the TV they already watched, And so 69 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: I could have seen all these episodes and I just 70 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: don't remember them. Also, just tons of art and stories 71 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: and broadside ballads and poems and all of that. Yeah, 72 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: I can't. The whole freezing over of things makes me 73 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 1: think of The Mighty Ducks. 74 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: Okay, because there's a scene in. 75 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: The first one. I don't know if you ever saw 76 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: that movie. Emilio Estevez's character basically has to coach these 77 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: kids hockey team because he got a drunk driving arrest 78 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: and this is his community service. Oh yeah, and he 79 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: is like a rich dude who doesn't want to do 80 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 1: any of this, although he does he did play hockey 81 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: when he was younger. And at one point he has 82 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: a bunch of the kids in his limousine and he 83 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: tells his driver to go out on the I and 84 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: I think one of the parents freaks out and it's 85 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: like what are you doing? And he was like, I 86 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: know when ice is safe to drive on, and they're 87 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: like how, And that whole thing just like made me go, wait, 88 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: that's like a skill people can have, Like, yeah, I 89 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: didn't realize how much basically cultivation goes into especially ice 90 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: highways that are used by big trucks, right, Like, uh, 91 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: you know a lot of people that live in more 92 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: remote areas, like maybe the lake is going to freeze over, 93 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: the harbor's going to freeze over. People are gonna use 94 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: their snowmobiles to get across it, and like maybe maybe 95 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: there is a road that is sort of created by people, 96 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 1: but they're also big highways with big trucks. And I 97 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: know there was a whole TV show about this called 98 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: Ice Road Truckers. Don't remember on network that was on. 99 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: I'm imagining it was on Discovery or one of the 100 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: other Discovery networks. But it's a whole thing of like 101 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: measuring the ice and planning out the path and clearing 102 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: the snow off of it because the snow insulates it, 103 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: so they clear the snow off so that it will 104 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: freeze more, right, and then increasingly a lot more like 105 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: monitoring of the ice both just for general safety and 106 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: because the seasons that these roads are usable is becoming 107 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: so much shorter in so many places. And it's like, 108 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 1: I mean, some of this is driven by need of 109 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 1: people to get things like food and medicine and other 110 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: stuff delivered during the wintertime, but also like diamond mines 111 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: that still operate in the wintertime, and the ice roads 112 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: are like how the trucks get in and out of there, 113 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: and so like, as the season gets shorter, the capitalism 114 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: wants to use them as long as possible, but also 115 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: not have a truckloaded with diamonds go through it. Yeah, 116 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: I'm not saying anything because I feel ways about that 117 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: as I think you doos I did too. 118 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: I like diamond's interesting. Yeah. 119 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: Well, and as I was writing the like the very 120 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: beginning of the episode where we were talking about, like 121 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: we know there's places this is not a novelty, it's 122 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: a necessity and the climate is messing it up, I 123 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: originally was like sort of writing in a thing that 124 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: about how like this affects industries and it also affects 125 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: like a lot of people whose like lives and livelihoods 126 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: are incredibly vulnerable like a lot of indigenous communities are 127 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: like this is a key part of. 128 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 2: Their way of life in the winter. 129 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: And then I was like, I couldn't find a way 130 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: to write it that did not feel like I was 131 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: equating a diamond mine with an indigenous community, and right, 132 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: that made me angry, and I was like, I'm just 133 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,239 Speaker 1: taking this out. We're going to talk about it behind 134 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: the scenes when I can like have more have more 135 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: context there than in this one intro paragraph. I just 136 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: remember when my beloved and I first met, because there 137 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: were only a few weeks between when we met and 138 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: when we got engaged, and telling him distinctly, if you 139 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: were to give me a diamond, I would say no, yeah, 140 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: which was fine because we were too poor to own 141 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: any such thing anyway at the time. Right, that was 142 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: almost thirty years ago. Yeah, I don't remember if I 143 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: said that exact thing to Patrick, but I said something 144 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 1: very similar about that to Patrick. I also, like, very 145 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: specifically said I would like to be asked in a 146 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: way that's meaningful and also private. Yeah. I didn't say 147 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: any of that, but it was, you know, it was 148 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: sort of it was in a public place, but it 149 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 1: was not a busy public place. Sure quiet, sure, silly. 150 00:08:57,679 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: We were at home and I did not know what 151 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: was happening. Oh that's sweet. Yeah, my my mom was 152 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 1: in the hospital unexpectedly. Uh. And it was a scary situation, right, 153 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: I mean, she was, it was. It was scary for reasons, 154 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: but it was it was not like my mother was 155 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: dying at that moment like a scary. 156 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 2: There was concerns. 157 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: And he had sent me out of the apartment on 158 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: an errand that was a ruse to get me out 159 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: of the apartment. And I came back and there were 160 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: candles lit everywhere, and I literally thought he was just 161 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: being really nice because my mom was in the hospital 162 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:36,719 Speaker 1: and I was. 163 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 2: Worried about her. 164 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: That's so sweet. 165 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. So anyway, anyway. 166 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: That was that has nothing to do at all with 167 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: frost fairs. Somehow we got on a diamond tangent. We 168 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: got out a diamond kick. Yes, yes, I am going 169 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: to look at that book so I can learn how 170 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: to ice skate. Yeah, I actually I have PDF on it. 171 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: I can just email you, but really I want the 172 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: ice cream recipe. 173 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 2: I want that. 174 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. 175 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 2: I don't remember the details of that at all. 176 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going through it and I was like, 177 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: now there's an ice cream and how to save drowning people. 178 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: Like this just really feels like an assortment. You can 179 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: eat ice cream, you can save people, you can ice skate, 180 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: you are golden, you got your winter covered with that book. 181 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: You talked about Head of Hopper this week. Yep. I 182 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: feel like that could have been an eighteen hour podcast. 183 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: So it was a little bit tricky to try to 184 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: be like, Okay, no, what actually fits in our normal range? 185 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: That doesn't That gives a sense of really what she 186 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: was capable of without having to delve into everything because 187 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: there were so many stories. There were so many like 188 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: writers and actors and yeah, directors who got harmed by her. 189 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: But Charlie Chaplin is an easy touchdown. Yeah, here's the 190 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: thing that's interesting to me. She routinely gets called a 191 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: bad writer h by everyone. There's even a Nora Efren 192 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: article from the New York Times from the seventies where 193 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: she's like, she's a bad writer, and I I don't 194 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: know that I agree with that assessment. Okay, her grammar 195 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: one hundred percent kookie muki u h. She even talks 196 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: about how she had an assistant at one point that 197 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: was like a college educated writer editor and would be like, no, 198 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: you can't do that grammatically, that's a split infinitive or 199 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: that's a dangly part of sible and she'd be like, 200 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: I don't care. So technically, I think she probably was 201 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: not a great writer. However, she had some really good 202 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,719 Speaker 1: turns of phrase that always made me go like that 203 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: is that is a clever way to put that. There 204 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 1: was one in her when I was reviewing her autobiography 205 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,559 Speaker 1: where she's talking about when she was a kid and 206 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: she bought herself a side saddle because she wanted something 207 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 1: that made her stand out as an interesting person. And 208 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: while she waited, she had to order it, and while 209 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: she waited for it to come, she made herself a 210 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: riding habit. 211 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 2: And then she. 212 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: Rode this horse that was like an old horse that 213 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: her family had around the town, as proud as could be. 214 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: And she included this phrase that I was like, I 215 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: love this. She said my head was so high that 216 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,839 Speaker 1: the sky and I were cheek to cheek. I love this. 217 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 1: I love that that sentence so much, and I'm like, okay. 218 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 1: So her grammar may have been screwy, but she also 219 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 1: wrote some very fun phrases. She also talked about when 220 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: she was a kid, there was a moment where her 221 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 1: dad's had what sounded a little like a midlife crisis, huh, 222 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: and he got caught up in something we've talked about 223 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: on the show, which was the Klondike Rush. Right, I 224 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: was guessing ampletely different thing from the slightly wrong time period, 225 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: So go ahead. Yeah, no, So he literally went up 226 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: to Alaska to try to like find fortune, and he 227 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: had never been great at business, and so not only 228 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: did he leave her mom with a bunch of kids 229 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: to take care of, there were also a lot of 230 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: people who had not paid their bills at the butcher shop, 231 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: and so the family didn't have money. And even though 232 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: she said she was kind of shy as a kid, 233 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: she was like, I'll go get those people to pay. 234 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: And she described herself by saying I was the fightingest 235 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: fourteen year old bill collector ever seen in Eltuna. And 236 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: that's another sentence that is just marvelous. So again, technically 237 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: she may not have been a good writer, and certainly 238 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: in terms of like fact checking, she was right well, 239 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: and I think the content, the fact that she was 240 00:13:54,559 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: writing gossip and sometimes verifiably false gossip, probably predisposed people 241 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: to be more critical of her writing, right, sort of 242 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: like the you know, there's a broad assumption about things 243 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 1: like tabloids and their content and the quality of them 244 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: that you know, probably leads people to then be a circular. 245 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: It's a spiral, that's what I'm trying to say. 246 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. 247 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, When she was first living in New York and 248 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: she lived in like a boarding house for young ladies 249 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: that were very poor, where a lot of other actors 250 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: were living, she brushed up against so many interesting people, 251 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: Like we forget that there were these pockets where all 252 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: of like the people that we now think of as 253 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: like the classic film stars or the classic stage chars, 254 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: we're all kind of hanging out together. And like, you know, 255 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: she knew Theta Barrow when she was very very young, 256 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: and she knew this is my favorit and someone I 257 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: kind of would like to do an episode on. 258 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 2: But I'm almost. 259 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: Scared too because I revere her so much. Ruth Gordon, 260 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I love Ruth Gordon. It just it fascinates 261 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: me that there are so many I also saved a 262 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: story for this behind the scenes that is sort of 263 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: a fun denument of like come Uppance, which is that 264 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: there was an actor named Joseph Cotton who had a 265 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: reported had an affair with one of his co stars. 266 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: He was already married, and the thing was, it seems 267 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: like and I don't know, but just based on reading 268 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: different accounts of it, she moved forward and published an 269 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: article about it in her column, but like his wife, 270 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: seems to have kind of known he was a cheater 271 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: and had chosen to stay with him anyway, and that 272 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: that column really hurt her more than it did him, 273 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: and that it made him really angry. So that then 274 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: when they were at a benefit not too long after that, 275 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: or some event that both had a Hopper and Joseph 276 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: Cotton were at, he kicked the leg out from under 277 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: her chair and she fell in front of the rye 278 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: at this event, which isn't necessarily you know, violence never 279 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: the way. However, allegedly he got sent telegrams from like 280 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: hundreds of people in Hollywood that were like, Oh, we've 281 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: all been wanting to do this for so long, You're 282 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: a hero, and that he put those all on his wall, 283 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: which is kind of indicative of how she was perceived. 284 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: Her son, William was also an actor. He was on 285 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: Perry Mason for a long time. But I in that 286 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: Vanity Fair article that we mentioned Roddy McDowell being interviewed 287 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: for as well as many other actors. I don't remember 288 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: who said it, but they mentioned one of the things 289 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: that kind of broke my heart was that nobody in 290 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: Hollywood trusted her son because they presumed he was like 291 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: a spy for her. And I know she had a 292 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: pretty significant falling out with her son and was pretty 293 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: much on her own late in life. And I wonder 294 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: if that isn't some of it right, Like you can't 295 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: spread poison everywhere and then not expect it to hit 296 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: your kids in something as a strange flip to that. So, 297 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: she and Loela Parsons each had one child, they had 298 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 1: each been divorced. They were essentially single moms. As much 299 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,239 Speaker 1: as they often hated each other, and there was a 300 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: brief I think in nineteen forty eight they had a 301 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: brief reconciliation. 302 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 2: They did not last. 303 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: But as much as they hated each other, they never 304 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: said they never gave bad reviews to each other's kids, 305 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: and in fact, if either of the other one's kid 306 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: was in a movie or had a project going on, 307 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: they always spoke like glowingly of it. 308 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 2: Huh. 309 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: And there's been a lot of theorization about it about 310 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 1: like was it just that they both knew how hard 311 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,199 Speaker 1: it had to be to have them for moms, so 312 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 1: they wanted to like keep that off limits and never 313 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: harm each other's kids, Like was that just the sacred space? 314 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 2: Right? 315 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: But it is very like even when I think it 316 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: was when Heada Hopper's daughter got married or not Headhoppers aren't. 317 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,719 Speaker 1: When Louella Parson's daughter got married, Heda was at their wedding. 318 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: I mean, it was like there was some sort of 319 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: weird social contract between the two of them where they 320 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 1: would engage in that way and it was safe. Yeah. 321 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: It's so fascinating to me and so hard for me 322 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: to understand the level of like purposeful intrigue of that life. Yeah, 323 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,719 Speaker 1: it sounds exhausting, It sounds unpleasant. It sounds like, uh, 324 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: exactly the opposite of how I would ever want to live, 325 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: Like I don't. I don't want to stir the snakes. 326 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 1: I want to stay out of the drama. I don't 327 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: want to manufacture drama. I certainly don't want to be 328 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: the person who is accusing people of illegal activities like 329 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: it's just it's all so strange to me and so 330 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: hard to wrap my brain around. Like in and she 331 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: was like, you know, my age ish when she started 332 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 1: really taking off in this way. And I'm like, particularly 333 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: as a woman in my early fifties, I do not 334 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: want any of that drama. No. I want to be 335 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: in the most peaceful possible scenarios whenever I can. Yeah, 336 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: I don't want any drama in my life. However, sometimes 337 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: when there is other drama that doesn't affect me and 338 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 1: ideally also isn't about anything consequential at all, right, that 339 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: I will look at that drama. Oh listen, Like, I'm 340 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: not trying to be holier than now about any of it. 341 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: Like I watch Bravo shows, I enjoy schadenfreude as much 342 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: as the next pert. I think the difference is that 343 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: I don't perceive these things as reality in a way 344 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: that is important, and I don't fight with people on 345 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: the internet about it, you know what I mean. Like, 346 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: I know if I met one of those people, I 347 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: don't think i'd care and I wouldn't be like I 348 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: know who you are because I don't. Yeah, my days 349 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: of fighting with people about stuff on the Internet are 350 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: very over. Yeah, it's just too too much. I don't 351 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: know anyway, I don't, I don't. I don't understand wanting 352 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: to cultivate a life of drama and an enemy's list. 353 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: And it sounds like an awful way to make a 354 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 1: living to me. Yeah, yeah, but for some people, they're 355 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: very cut out for it. She seemed to love it. 356 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: She liked being called all the names. She liked being 357 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,400 Speaker 1: referred to in ways we can't say on a show 358 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: that is, you know, potentially going to be listened to 359 00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: by youngsters. I don't and I but I mean it 360 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: goes on right. We still have outlets that exist solely 361 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: to expose the secrets of famous people, and I none 362 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: of that sounds good to me anyway. Like I said, 363 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: I understand the appeal of gossipy things and the schadenfreude 364 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: of watching someone who seems to have everything get taken down. 365 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 1: I do understand it. I don't love it, right. Stuff 366 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: you missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. 367 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 368 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.