WEBVTT - Up And Away In My Beautiful Spy Balloon

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production from iHeartRadio. Hey there,

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<v Speaker 1>and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm an executive producer with iHeartRadio and how the tech

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<v Speaker 1>are you? So I've been teasing this topic for a while,

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<v Speaker 1>but I figured today we would finally dive into the

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<v Speaker 1>history of spy and surveillance balloons. We've heard a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of talk about this in the news here in the

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<v Speaker 1>United States this month, as the US military is shot

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<v Speaker 1>down a couple of objects that were thought to be

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<v Speaker 1>surveillance devices built by China, or perhaps, in at least

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<v Speaker 1>one case, an unidentified object that could have been a

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<v Speaker 1>surveillance or spy balloon. But so we shot it down

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<v Speaker 1>just to be on the safe side. But we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to get to all of that now. Before we talk

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<v Speaker 1>about China, we need to talk about the history of

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<v Speaker 1>using balloons and stuff like espionage and warfare, and that

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<v Speaker 1>brings us to beans. It brings us back to China.

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<v Speaker 1>So the story goes that a Chinese military genius named

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<v Speaker 1>Ju Liang, and I apologize for my terrible pronunciation. However,

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<v Speaker 1>he was known as Kong Ming, used a paper lantern

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<v Speaker 1>with a message written on it in order to call

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<v Speaker 1>for help when enemy troops were surrounding his forces. This

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<v Speaker 1>was one of the tactics he would use, and essentially

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<v Speaker 1>this sky lantern was a small hot air balloon. In fact,

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<v Speaker 1>I should probably talk about how a hot air balloon works.

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<v Speaker 1>Now you've probably heard that hot air rises, but from

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<v Speaker 1>another point of view, you really should say that, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>colder air sinks. This is because warmer air is less

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<v Speaker 1>dense than colder air. Cold air is more dense, so

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<v Speaker 1>it settles and the warm air gets pushed up. The

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<v Speaker 1>dense cold air sinks down, the warmer air is pushed

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<v Speaker 1>upward to float on top, and it just kind of

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<v Speaker 1>acts like that. It's a fluid, just as any fluids

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<v Speaker 1>where you would deal with different densities would do the

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<v Speaker 1>same sort of thing. Right. Well, if you have yourself

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<v Speaker 1>a container that's light enough, and you fill it with

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<v Speaker 1>air that is warm enough, the whole of that container

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<v Speaker 1>will become lighter than the air surrounding it and it

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<v Speaker 1>will rise. This is just a basic feature of fluid dynamics, y'all. So,

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<v Speaker 1>with a paper lantern made of thin material and a

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<v Speaker 1>heat source that can be suspended inside the lantern, preferably

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<v Speaker 1>held away from the walls of the lantern, or else

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<v Speaker 1>you're just going to set fire to the lantern. You

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<v Speaker 1>would have yourself a sky lantern. It needs to be

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<v Speaker 1>closed off obviously. If it's not, then the heat air

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<v Speaker 1>is just going to rise straight through the lantern, so

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<v Speaker 1>it needs to have a cap on the top. Lighting

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<v Speaker 1>the lantern means a small fire heats the air inside

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<v Speaker 1>the lantern to the point where the whole thing can

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<v Speaker 1>rise up into the sky and voila. You got yourself

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<v Speaker 1>a potential signaling device. You can see it, it's lit

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<v Speaker 1>up in the sky, and you know generally where it's

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<v Speaker 1>rising from. Assuming that is that the folks that you

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<v Speaker 1>want to signal can actually see the lantern from their

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<v Speaker 1>perspective or their downwind of the lanterns, so that they

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<v Speaker 1>have a chance to spot and or retrieve it if

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<v Speaker 1>it has drifted away from where you released it. If

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<v Speaker 1>the lantern floats in the wrong direction, you might find

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<v Speaker 1>yourself without the benefit of reinforcements. Kong Ming lived around

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<v Speaker 1>two hundred Common Era, and to this day, sky lanterns

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<v Speaker 1>are also known as Kongming lanterns. In China, they have

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<v Speaker 1>been popular in various festivals and celebrations, as can be

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<v Speaker 1>seen in the documentary Tangled when Rapunzel dreams of seeing

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<v Speaker 1>them in person. Also, just a quick shout out to

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<v Speaker 1>any tech stuff listeners who have been with this show

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<v Speaker 1>long enough to remember when I would refer to work

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<v Speaker 1>of fiction as documentaries. It has been quite some time,

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<v Speaker 1>all right. But sky lanterns are a long way from

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<v Speaker 1>spy balloons, right, I mean they would take centuries a

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<v Speaker 1>bunch of them to get to a point where humans

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<v Speaker 1>could turn to balloons for the purposes of observing others.

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<v Speaker 1>That's because early uses of balloons for the purposes of

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<v Speaker 1>seeing what the heck is going on over the hill

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<v Speaker 1>over yonder would require a real human being to be

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<v Speaker 1>lifted up into the sky, because it's not like we

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<v Speaker 1>had wireless sensors that could collect data and then beam

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<v Speaker 1>information down to us. We didn't even have wired sensors

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<v Speaker 1>that could do that. The sensors that we relied upon

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<v Speaker 1>were mostly connected to one of the five traditionally associated

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<v Speaker 1>with human beings. Heck, even the earliest weather balloon observations

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<v Speaker 1>involved humans going up with basic stuff like thermometers and

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<v Speaker 1>barometers to see what it's like up there in the

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<v Speaker 1>wild blue yonder. According to the US National Parks Service,

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<v Speaker 1>the earliest recorded example of an observation balloon dates back

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<v Speaker 1>to seventeen ninety four, during the French Revolution. That's just

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<v Speaker 1>a touch more than a decade after the Montgolfier Brothers

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<v Speaker 1>first wild France with their experiments with hot air balloons.

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<v Speaker 1>So the Montgolfier's built larger and larger balloons while experimenting

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<v Speaker 1>with hot air as a means to achieve flight. Their

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<v Speaker 1>earliest experiments just involved inflating a balloon and there was

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<v Speaker 1>no payload. That was probably a good thing, because one

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<v Speaker 1>of those earlier experiments saw the anchor strings on the

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<v Speaker 1>balloon break and the balloon rose to around six hundred

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<v Speaker 1>feet in altitude and there was no way to get

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<v Speaker 1>down apart from it cooling off enough to descend, because

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<v Speaker 1>once the air cools down, it gets more dense, and

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<v Speaker 1>if it gets dense enough, then it's no longer going

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<v Speaker 1>to be bulliant in the surrounding atmosphere. It's going to

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<v Speaker 1>come back down, right. So, in seventeen eighty three, three

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<v Speaker 1>important actual living beings took the very first hot air

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<v Speaker 1>balloon flight to carry a living payload. Now, earlier experiments

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<v Speaker 1>did include moments where strapping men who were holding on

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<v Speaker 1>to anchor lines were lifted off their feet, but those

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<v Speaker 1>don't really count like they weren't intended to go on

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<v Speaker 1>a flight. They were intended to hold the balloon down

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<v Speaker 1>while experiments were conducted, and occasionally they would be lifted

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<v Speaker 1>up like a foot or two before they would either

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<v Speaker 1>let go or the balloon would be pulled back down.

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<v Speaker 1>The three critters that actually went on this maiden voyage

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<v Speaker 1>were a sheep, a duck, and a rooster, which sounds

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<v Speaker 1>like the beginning of a joke, but no, these were

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<v Speaker 1>suggested by King Louis the sixteenth himself. Now why he

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<v Speaker 1>chose those particular three animals, I have no idea. I

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<v Speaker 1>also don't know if lou thought he was giving these

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<v Speaker 1>animals a real treat, or if he wanted to punish

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<v Speaker 1>them for some reason. There's so many unanswered quest stents

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<v Speaker 1>in history. This balloon ascended to around fifteen hundred feet

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<v Speaker 1>or so. It traveled about ten thousand feet until the

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<v Speaker 1>air inside the balloon had cooled enough for the balloon

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<v Speaker 1>to descend. It landed. The animals were all safe inside

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<v Speaker 1>the wicker basket that was attached to the balloon, so

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<v Speaker 1>they got out none the worse for wear. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know how they felt during the flight, but they were

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<v Speaker 1>fine afterward. And not long after that, some brave pioneers

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<v Speaker 1>and ballooning decided they would become the first humans to

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<v Speaker 1>take flight in such a contraption. Now, at this stage,

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<v Speaker 1>the balloons featured a sort of container that had portholes

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<v Speaker 1>through which one could insert fuel into a brazier that

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<v Speaker 1>was suspended above the wicker basket that could hold people.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, that would be at the very base of

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<v Speaker 1>the balloon, and it would be right at the very

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<v Speaker 1>bottom of the opening for the balloon itself. Right, So

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<v Speaker 1>you filled this brazier up with fuel and you fire

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<v Speaker 1>to it. Heats up the air, the balloon inflates and

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<v Speaker 1>eventually becomes light enough to take flight. If you wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to go higher, you put more fuel into the brazier,

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<v Speaker 1>or if you just wanted to stay in the air,

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<v Speaker 1>you would put more fuel in because otherwise the fire

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<v Speaker 1>would burn down and the balloon would lose bullyancy and

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<v Speaker 1>it would come down. Right, you could also cause the

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<v Speaker 1>balloon to come down on purpose by introducing something that

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<v Speaker 1>would slow down or stop the combustion, like pouring water

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<v Speaker 1>through the porthole into the brazier to help extinguish the fire.

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<v Speaker 1>This would allow the air to cool and again the

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<v Speaker 1>balloon would come back down. These balloons were pretty risky.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, a quick change in wind could potentially cause

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<v Speaker 1>flames from this brazier to come into contact with the

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<v Speaker 1>inner wall of the balloon itself, which could potentially mean

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<v Speaker 1>that the balloon catches fire. Obviously that would be disastrous.

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<v Speaker 1>You would have an uncontrolled descent, ak a crash. And

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<v Speaker 1>there was also no way to steer these balloons, so

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<v Speaker 1>you were just subjected to the whims of the wind itself.

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<v Speaker 1>So you might think, oh, we're gonna go up, we'll

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<v Speaker 1>travel a few thousand feet and we'll come down in

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<v Speaker 1>that field over there, But because of the wind, you're like, nope,

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<v Speaker 1>we're coming down the louver. Move over, Louis. It marked

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<v Speaker 1>an incredible advance in science and technology. Even old Benjamin Franklin,

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<v Speaker 1>fresh off his hardened glass Armonica tour, took note of

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<v Speaker 1>the first hot air balloon flight while he was in France.

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<v Speaker 1>Around this same time, other scientists and daredevils had come

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<v Speaker 1>up with an alternative to hot air balloons because some

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<v Speaker 1>gases are pretty light, right like, they're lighter than the

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<v Speaker 1>surrounding atmosphere. Hydrogen, for example, is lighter than the air

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<v Speaker 1>that we're walking around in, and so thought the physicists.

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<v Speaker 1>If you were to fill a balloon with a very

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<v Speaker 1>light gas like hydrogen that could also float on air,

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<v Speaker 1>you wouldn't need a source of heat to heat up

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<v Speaker 1>the gas. You would just need enough hydrogen to overcome

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<v Speaker 1>the weight of the balloon itself. But hydrogen comes with

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of drawbacks. The big one is that it's very,

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<v Speaker 1>very flammable see also the tragedy of the Hindenburg disaster.

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<v Speaker 1>But you wouldn't need or want an open flame anyway,

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<v Speaker 1>because again, the gas you're using is lighter than air.

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<v Speaker 1>There's no need to have a heat source to heat

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<v Speaker 1>the air inside the balloon. Now, the same year that

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<v Speaker 1>the Montgolfiers were launching hot air balloons, we got the

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<v Speaker 1>first flight of a hydrogen balloon and it carried a

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<v Speaker 1>payload of about twenty pounds or around nine kilograms. And

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<v Speaker 1>you might wonder where the heck did they get hydrogen gas?

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<v Speaker 1>Because hydrogen, while it is the most plentiful element in

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<v Speaker 1>the galaxy, is also notorious for bonding with other elements

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<v Speaker 1>like hydrogen and oxygen makes water, so you have to

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<v Speaker 1>put forth real effort to break those molecular bonds to

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<v Speaker 1>release hydrogen gas, and then you have to collect it. Well.

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<v Speaker 1>The researchers were using scrap iron and then they were

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<v Speaker 1>pouring sulfuric acid onto the iron. One of the byproducts

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<v Speaker 1>of the chemical reaction that would follow is hydrogen gas.

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<v Speaker 1>They captured this with a system of lead pipes that

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<v Speaker 1>fed into the interior of the balloon, and this allowed

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<v Speaker 1>them to inflate the gosh darn thing. At the end

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<v Speaker 1>of seventeen eighty three, the Fringies successfully flew a hydrogen

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<v Speaker 1>based balloon just a few days after the first successful

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<v Speaker 1>hot air balloon flights. So these things are progressing in tandem.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, it's really amazing how quickly this took off.

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<v Speaker 1>That was a terrible, unintentional pun which I'm sure I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to repeat throughout this episode. Anyway, Unlike a hot

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<v Speaker 1>air balloon, a lighter than air gas balloon doesn't need

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<v Speaker 1>to constantly be refueled, so it just will stay up

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<v Speaker 1>there for as long as the balloon is able to

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<v Speaker 1>contain this lighter than air gas, so to be able

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<v Speaker 1>to control things like altitude, the balloon would have ballast.

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<v Speaker 1>That's bags of stuff that's used to weigh it down.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you wanted to go higher, you had to

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<v Speaker 1>ditch some ballast. You have to throw some weight overboard,

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<v Speaker 1>like a sand bag or something. This would decrease the

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<v Speaker 1>weight of the balloon and allow it to fly higher

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<v Speaker 1>in altitude. But in order to come down, you would

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<v Speaker 1>have to have a release valve that would let you

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<v Speaker 1>have a controlled release. Controlled is the important part of hydrogen.

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<v Speaker 1>You let out a little hydrogen, you lose some buoyancy,

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<v Speaker 1>you start to come down. The more hydrogen you release,

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<v Speaker 1>the more you come down. And if you're very careful,

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<v Speaker 1>you're able to have a controlled descent and land without crashing.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, when you have that flammable true goal

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<v Speaker 1>where you've got fuel and oxidizer and heat, things get dangerous.

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<v Speaker 1>So hydrogen is fuel with a big, big f And

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<v Speaker 1>if the hydrogen were to catch fire, believe me, you

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<v Speaker 1>would be well and truly ft. It wouldn't be so

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<v Speaker 1>much a fire as it would be an explosion. We

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<v Speaker 1>get back to the Hendenburg disaster there, but there were

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<v Speaker 1>also other factors that contributed to that particular tragedy. Interestingly,

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<v Speaker 1>the Hindenburg was not designed to use hydrogen gas in

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<v Speaker 1>the first place. It was meant to use helium. Helium

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<v Speaker 1>is also lighter than air. You know, we're all familiar

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<v Speaker 1>with helium balloons, but unlike hydrogen, helium is not flammable,

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<v Speaker 1>so it's safe to have in areas where you've got

0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:54.240
<v Speaker 1>things like internal combustion engines and such. However, in the

0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:58.680
<v Speaker 1>nineteen thirties, the Hendenburg, which originated in Germany, wasn't able

0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:04.480
<v Speaker 1>to import heli because well, it's nineteen thirties, it's Germany.

0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:08.240
<v Speaker 1>Nazis were in power, and even though World War Two

0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:10.840
<v Speaker 1>had not really started yet and the United States certainly

0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:14.720
<v Speaker 1>wasn't pulled into it, the US was already let's say,

0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:20.720
<v Speaker 1>concerned about Germany and refused to export helium to the Germans,

0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:25.960
<v Speaker 1>so instead they used hydrogen, and thus the die was

0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:30.880
<v Speaker 1>cast for the Hendenburg. The use of the hydrogen balloon

0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:33.120
<v Speaker 1>also taught us that if you go to a high

0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:37.640
<v Speaker 1>enough altitude, your ears go pop and that can hurt. Also,

0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:42.160
<v Speaker 1>researchers started to carry meteorological instruments like thermometers and barometers

0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:46.040
<v Speaker 1>aboard the hydrogen balloons. So these became the first weather

0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.960
<v Speaker 1>balloons of a sort, but they were manned. Unmanned weather

0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:53.880
<v Speaker 1>balloons would have to wait nearly a century. So by

0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:59.160
<v Speaker 1>seventeen ninety four, balloons were a known thing. And during

0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:01.920
<v Speaker 1>the French Revolution wars in which countries like Britain and

0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:05.400
<v Speaker 1>Austria would to war against France, largely because it's pretty

0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:08.440
<v Speaker 1>scary to see these common French peasants overthrow the previously

0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:12.960
<v Speaker 1>unassailable monarchy and the noble classes, the French military would

0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.640
<v Speaker 1>use balloons to get a bird's eye view of the battlefield.

0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:29.400
<v Speaker 1>I'll explain more when we come back from this quick break. Okay,

0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:36.000
<v Speaker 1>So we had French military officials using balloons in order

0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:41.680
<v Speaker 1>to get a high altitude view of areas like potential

0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:48.440
<v Speaker 1>battlefields or even actual battlefield conditions like active conditions during combat.

0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:55.600
<v Speaker 1>It turned out that these uses were at best distractions.

0:15:55.640 --> 0:16:00.720
<v Speaker 1>They were not providing really useful info. Apparently, the reports

0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:03.440
<v Speaker 1>of the time said that they had no impact whatsoever

0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:08.120
<v Speaker 1>on the course of battles. So early on they had

0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.160
<v Speaker 1>hardly any impact. But flash forward a little more than

0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:14.480
<v Speaker 1>half a century and head on over to the United

0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:17.760
<v Speaker 1>States and we would see another use of observation balloons,

0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:21.440
<v Speaker 1>this time during the US Civil War. So you had

0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:25.040
<v Speaker 1>the Union and you had the Confederates, and both sides

0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:27.920
<v Speaker 1>of the conflict used balloons to gather observations of the

0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:31.040
<v Speaker 1>enemy and to map out battlefields. So in this case

0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:34.960
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't necessarily during an actual battle, but sometimes it

0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:37.920
<v Speaker 1>was just to get a really good bird's eye view

0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:41.640
<v Speaker 1>of a battlefield, map out where units could take position,

0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:45.000
<v Speaker 1>places that they should avoid, just conditions they need to

0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:47.240
<v Speaker 1>be aware of before they go into battles so that

0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:51.120
<v Speaker 1>they're not finding out while you know, warfare is breaking

0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:53.520
<v Speaker 1>out all around them, and it starts to make a

0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.120
<v Speaker 1>little sense. And this was all in an effort to

0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.160
<v Speaker 1>just provide intelligence to military units on the ground. Now,

0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.880
<v Speaker 1>the Confederates had their share of military balloons, but the

0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:07.120
<v Speaker 1>Union side historically made better use of this technology. Meanwhile,

0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:11.760
<v Speaker 1>the Confederates were experimenting with submarines. It was a really

0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:18.879
<v Speaker 1>scary time for military innovation because these were all in

0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:22.919
<v Speaker 1>many cases unproven technologies where people were being put at

0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.760
<v Speaker 1>risk in order to test them. Now, both sides used

0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:30.560
<v Speaker 1>gas balloons for this purpose. They weren't using hot air balloons,

0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:35.160
<v Speaker 1>They're using gas balloons. They tried using balloons to extend

0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.320
<v Speaker 1>communication lines, but they found that the actual use of

0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:41.720
<v Speaker 1>this was tricky. It was hard to read signals that

0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:45.240
<v Speaker 1>were sent by balloonists. They were relying on things like

0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.359
<v Speaker 1>signal flags, which could be difficult to see. Some of

0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:51.800
<v Speaker 1>them were even outfitted with telegraph wires that extended down

0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.560
<v Speaker 1>to the ground, but those ended up being a little

0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:58.080
<v Speaker 1>fiddly as well. However, the idea was sound, even though

0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:01.639
<v Speaker 1>the implementation was a bit lack Again, like, this was

0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:05.040
<v Speaker 1>all unfolding in the middle of a war, so it

0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:08.200
<v Speaker 1>was tricky to get things to work just right while

0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:11.439
<v Speaker 1>you're out in the field while it's all happening. The

0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:15.399
<v Speaker 1>first weather balloons to carry instruments but not people, would

0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:18.480
<v Speaker 1>arrive in the eighteen nineties back in France, where this

0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:24.040
<v Speaker 1>whole business got started, essentially a century after balloons were

0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:27.639
<v Speaker 1>first being used for surveillance in wartime conditions. These weather

0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.360
<v Speaker 1>balloons had an open bottom and they were gas balloons,

0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.000
<v Speaker 1>and so when they would be released during the day,

0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:36.480
<v Speaker 1>the lighter than air balloon would rise up into the sky.

0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:40.639
<v Speaker 1>They would carry all these instruments that would record measurements.

0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:44.800
<v Speaker 1>At night, the gases would cool down enough for the

0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:48.359
<v Speaker 1>balloon to start deflating. You had air pressure that was

0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:52.040
<v Speaker 1>forcing gases out, and the balloon would start to come down,

0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:55.919
<v Speaker 1>and the idea was to retrieve the instruments and record

0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:58.480
<v Speaker 1>the readings as quickly as possible in order to track

0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:02.320
<v Speaker 1>weather conditions. This was not always easy because the balloons

0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:06.000
<v Speaker 1>had a tendency to drift, sometimes by hundreds of miles,

0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:11.239
<v Speaker 1>so sometimes the data you got back wasn't necessarily the

0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:15.080
<v Speaker 1>most useful. But not long after this, early meteorologists came

0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:17.760
<v Speaker 1>up with a better plan. So instead of using an

0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:21.400
<v Speaker 1>open ended balloon, where you know, you're essentially releasing a

0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:26.159
<v Speaker 1>bag filled with light gas up into the sky, they

0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:29.639
<v Speaker 1>would use a sealed balloon that was filled with lighter

0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.800
<v Speaker 1>than air gas. They would release this balloon into the air.

0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:39.480
<v Speaker 1>It would ascend up into the sky, and as the

0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:42.680
<v Speaker 1>air around the balloon would get thinner at higher altitudes,

0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:46.240
<v Speaker 1>the balloon would swell because there was less air pressure

0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:48.359
<v Speaker 1>on the outside of the balloon than there was on

0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:51.680
<v Speaker 1>the inside of the balloon at that altitude. You've probably

0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:57.280
<v Speaker 1>seen pictures of balloons that looked incredibly spherical way up

0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.080
<v Speaker 1>in altitude, but when they were first launched they and

0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:02.880
<v Speaker 1>look like that at all. Now, the material on these

0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:06.480
<v Speaker 1>balloons was also really thin. These days we make them

0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:10.399
<v Speaker 1>out of latex, and because they're thin, this material is

0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:14.040
<v Speaker 1>so thin at higher altitudes. As the balloon stretches and

0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:18.159
<v Speaker 1>stretches and stretches, as it swells up, it begins to tear.

0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.000
<v Speaker 1>And when it tears, then the gas escapes the balloon

0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:25.880
<v Speaker 1>and it starts to come tumbling down. Now, the meteorologists,

0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:28.639
<v Speaker 1>they knew this was going to happen, so what they

0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:32.080
<v Speaker 1>did was they attached a small parachute to the payload

0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:36.359
<v Speaker 1>to the instrument bundle, so that the parachute would deploy

0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.880
<v Speaker 1>as the bundle was falling, and then the payload could

0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:43.359
<v Speaker 1>float down rather than crash down. And we still use

0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:47.000
<v Speaker 1>weather balloons that use this method today, though obviously now

0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:49.480
<v Speaker 1>we can include devices that send out a radio signal

0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:51.840
<v Speaker 1>that make it way easier to track down where those

0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:55.800
<v Speaker 1>instruments have landed once they do. So, by the time

0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:59.119
<v Speaker 1>you get to the early twentieth century, balloons have become

0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:01.960
<v Speaker 1>a common tool the militaries. They were in fact in

0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:04.840
<v Speaker 1>heavy use in World War One among pretty much all

0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:08.000
<v Speaker 1>the countries involved in the conflict. The potential for spies

0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.240
<v Speaker 1>to use balloons to uncover enemy positions and battlefield conditions

0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:15.480
<v Speaker 1>were enough to prompt the various militaries to target balloons

0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:20.919
<v Speaker 1>with high priority. They became important targets for the military.

0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:23.439
<v Speaker 1>This is also in balloons, often in the form of

0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:28.439
<v Speaker 1>dirigibles like the Hindenburg, were used as weaponized vehicles. Some

0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:32.320
<v Speaker 1>dirigibles had machine guns mounted within the cabin, or they

0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:35.560
<v Speaker 1>carried a payload of bombs. But that starts to get

0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:38.679
<v Speaker 1>outside the surveillance and spy stuff, so I'm not going

0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:41.080
<v Speaker 1>to spend any real time talking about that. That's a

0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:45.040
<v Speaker 1>separate episode. Also in World War One and into World

0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:47.920
<v Speaker 1>War Two, some countries started to use what we're called

0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:53.560
<v Speaker 1>barrage balloons. Now, these were a defensive measure, So essentially

0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:57.040
<v Speaker 1>the idea was to attach steel cables to unmanned balloons,

0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:00.719
<v Speaker 1>and if there was an incoming attack by a you

0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:04.040
<v Speaker 1>could release the balloons and they would go up into

0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:06.720
<v Speaker 1>the air, lifting these cables up in the air, and

0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:10.359
<v Speaker 1>the cables would serve as obstacles for enemy aircraft. Like

0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:14.359
<v Speaker 1>you would just have these balloons holding taut cables still

0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:17.480
<v Speaker 1>attached to the ground, and aircraft if they were to

0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:21.879
<v Speaker 1>try and fly through the area could get tangled up.

0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:25.000
<v Speaker 1>They could foul the aircraft and cause them to crash,

0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:29.639
<v Speaker 1>or it would force pilots to climb at a higher

0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:33.680
<v Speaker 1>altitude to fly over these barrage balloons, but that would

0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:37.280
<v Speaker 1>bring them within range of anti aircraft weaponry. So it

0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:41.639
<v Speaker 1>was all meant to dissuade aerial attacks, all right. But

0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:46.760
<v Speaker 1>back to observation balloons. In the nineteen forties, General Mills yep,

0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:52.200
<v Speaker 1>the food company, the one famous for cereal, created balloons

0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:56.280
<v Speaker 1>designed to ascend all the way up into the stratosphere.

0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:01.280
<v Speaker 1>The aeronautical arm of General Mills, which is wild to

0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:05.120
<v Speaker 1>think about, would use these balloons to lift instrumentation way

0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:09.480
<v Speaker 1>way up in the sky, typically to do stuff like

0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:13.800
<v Speaker 1>study weather conditions and also detect radiation in the upper atmosphere.

0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:19.639
<v Speaker 1>They used essentially what was the similar to a photographic plate,

0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:23.439
<v Speaker 1>where instead of using light to create an image, it

0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:27.560
<v Speaker 1>was there to detect nuclear radiation that could hit the

0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:30.120
<v Speaker 1>plate and create an image that we could then see

0:23:30.160 --> 0:23:33.600
<v Speaker 1>once we retrieved this when it came back to the ground.

0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:36.560
<v Speaker 1>So these balloons were not meant to spy on people.

0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:40.720
<v Speaker 1>They were meant to make observations about weather and science,

0:23:41.160 --> 0:23:47.240
<v Speaker 1>potentially detecting nuclear radiation which could be related to espionage

0:23:47.400 --> 0:23:50.640
<v Speaker 1>or at least intelligence gathering. This whole thing was called

0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:53.919
<v Speaker 1>Project Skyhook, and it fell under the administration of the

0:23:53.960 --> 0:23:56.720
<v Speaker 1>Office of Naval Research in the United States, with the

0:23:56.800 --> 0:24:00.840
<v Speaker 1>Atomic Energy Commission joining in a little bit later. These

0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:04.080
<v Speaker 1>balloons would typically jettison their payload, which would then descend

0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:06.840
<v Speaker 1>via parachute for retrieval by a ground team or a

0:24:06.840 --> 0:24:10.040
<v Speaker 1>water team, as the case may be, and the work

0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:15.040
<v Speaker 1>done there would then inform later espionage efforts. See if

0:24:15.040 --> 0:24:18.760
<v Speaker 1>you could send balloons way, way, way up into the sky,

0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:22.440
<v Speaker 1>maybe you could do that so that they could potentially

0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:27.000
<v Speaker 1>take photographs or film of the land that was beneath,

0:24:27.320 --> 0:24:29.520
<v Speaker 1>so that, you know, you could get an idea where

0:24:29.560 --> 0:24:32.360
<v Speaker 1>someone might be, I don't know, trying to hide nuclear

0:24:32.480 --> 0:24:37.120
<v Speaker 1>silos in their country, or military bases or whatnot. And

0:24:37.160 --> 0:24:40.280
<v Speaker 1>so in the late nineteen forties and into the nineteen fifties,

0:24:40.320 --> 0:24:43.880
<v Speaker 1>the US began to rely on balloons to lift surveillance

0:24:43.920 --> 0:24:49.480
<v Speaker 1>payloads into high altitudes, expressly for the purpose of photographing

0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:53.840
<v Speaker 1>the then Soviet Union as well as China. The two

0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:58.080
<v Speaker 1>massive communist powers that the US was convinced served as

0:24:58.160 --> 0:25:03.399
<v Speaker 1>existential threats to truth, justice, and the American way, so

0:25:03.480 --> 0:25:06.400
<v Speaker 1>the only way to really defend yourself is to snoop

0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:09.640
<v Speaker 1>on them. Now. One early example of this was called

0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:14.639
<v Speaker 1>Project Mogul, which technically started before Projects Skyhook did with

0:25:14.680 --> 0:25:18.600
<v Speaker 1>General Mills. But Mogul's purpose was to carry equipment designed

0:25:18.600 --> 0:25:22.720
<v Speaker 1>to detect sound, but not just any sound. Instead, it

0:25:22.760 --> 0:25:25.760
<v Speaker 1>was designed to detect sound that would come in the

0:25:25.800 --> 0:25:29.040
<v Speaker 1>wake of the detonation of atomic bombs. The thought was

0:25:29.680 --> 0:25:33.600
<v Speaker 1>an atomic bomb detonation would create sound that would travel

0:25:33.680 --> 0:25:37.440
<v Speaker 1>in a channel, high, high, high up in the atmosphere.

0:25:37.880 --> 0:25:40.520
<v Speaker 1>So the US was concerned that the Soviet Union was

0:25:40.640 --> 0:25:43.879
<v Speaker 1>testing atomic weapons and they wanted to keep an ear

0:25:44.040 --> 0:25:48.120
<v Speaker 1>out for that. And the US had already demonstrated atomic

0:25:48.119 --> 0:25:51.040
<v Speaker 1>weapons being extremely effective if you wanted to wipe out

0:25:51.080 --> 0:25:53.840
<v Speaker 1>an entire city, because they had done it twice already.

0:25:54.760 --> 0:25:58.240
<v Speaker 1>By the way, balloons like the ones the US released

0:25:58.359 --> 0:26:02.120
<v Speaker 1>and the ones that China has released have a pretty

0:26:02.200 --> 0:26:06.199
<v Speaker 1>huge overlap. In the ven diagram that has balloons in

0:26:06.240 --> 0:26:09.280
<v Speaker 1>one circle and UFOs in the other circle like a

0:26:09.480 --> 0:26:14.239
<v Speaker 1>really big overlap. UFO stands for unidentified flying object, and

0:26:14.320 --> 0:26:17.679
<v Speaker 1>that's all that UFO actually means, right Like, it literally

0:26:17.720 --> 0:26:21.320
<v Speaker 1>means you see something that's in the air and you

0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:24.960
<v Speaker 1>can't figure out what it is. So it's a UFO.

0:26:25.160 --> 0:26:29.520
<v Speaker 1>It's unidentified, it is flying, and it's something an object.

0:26:30.280 --> 0:26:34.120
<v Speaker 1>What UFO does not mean, at least it doesn't intrinsically mean,

0:26:34.960 --> 0:26:38.560
<v Speaker 1>is that it's an extra terrestrial object. That is, that

0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:42.800
<v Speaker 1>it's something that's not from Earth. But over the years,

0:26:42.840 --> 0:26:47.520
<v Speaker 1>we've kind of conflated these two things that UFOs and

0:26:47.720 --> 0:26:51.320
<v Speaker 1>aliens are one and the same, or rather that UFOs

0:26:51.359 --> 0:26:54.600
<v Speaker 1>are what aliens used to tool around in our solar system.

0:26:54.760 --> 0:26:58.760
<v Speaker 1>But no, UFOs are just stuff what's up in the sky,

0:26:58.920 --> 0:27:01.640
<v Speaker 1>but we ain't sure what it is yet. And when

0:27:01.680 --> 0:27:06.359
<v Speaker 1>you look at balloons, especially weather or surveillance balloons, you

0:27:06.400 --> 0:27:09.280
<v Speaker 1>can really understand how this can happen because I think

0:27:09.320 --> 0:27:11.479
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people think, well, of course I know

0:27:11.480 --> 0:27:13.479
<v Speaker 1>what a balloon looks like. I'm not going to mistake

0:27:13.520 --> 0:27:17.800
<v Speaker 1>a balloon for something else. But at lower altitudes, these

0:27:17.800 --> 0:27:21.760
<v Speaker 1>balloons are tear drop sheepd right with the bulbous part

0:27:21.800 --> 0:27:24.960
<v Speaker 1>of the tear at the top of the balloon. They

0:27:25.000 --> 0:27:28.000
<v Speaker 1>look like they've been released prematurely, like ah, you let

0:27:28.080 --> 0:27:30.480
<v Speaker 1>go before you've finished filling it up. It's not full

0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:34.560
<v Speaker 1>of gas. This, however, is done on purpose, because, as

0:27:34.560 --> 0:27:39.320
<v Speaker 1>I mentioned earlier, as these balloons rise in altitude, they

0:27:39.359 --> 0:27:43.359
<v Speaker 1>move into areas of lower air pressure and they expand.

0:27:43.480 --> 0:27:47.160
<v Speaker 1>The balloons get bigger and bigger. So a balloon that's

0:27:47.200 --> 0:27:49.840
<v Speaker 1>tear drop shaped at a low altitude turns into this

0:27:50.119 --> 0:27:54.560
<v Speaker 1>enormous sphere as it climbs to upper altitudes, and like

0:27:54.600 --> 0:27:58.159
<v Speaker 1>I said, it eventually can pop or rather the material again.

0:27:58.200 --> 0:28:02.000
<v Speaker 1>Typically latex will tear and then release gas and cause

0:28:02.119 --> 0:28:04.880
<v Speaker 1>the balloon to deflate quickly, or sometimes they'll just completely

0:28:04.960 --> 0:28:07.919
<v Speaker 1>rip apart and the stuff what the balloon was carrying

0:28:08.000 --> 0:28:12.280
<v Speaker 1>comes crashing down. In nineteen forty seven, a rancher named

0:28:12.320 --> 0:28:16.240
<v Speaker 1>WW mac Brazil was driving across his land with his

0:28:16.359 --> 0:28:20.200
<v Speaker 1>son Vernon, and the two encountered something weird. They found

0:28:20.200 --> 0:28:24.240
<v Speaker 1>a mass of fabric, rubber, metallic foil, and some other

0:28:24.280 --> 0:28:27.760
<v Speaker 1>stuff that was heaped on the ground. So the rancher

0:28:27.840 --> 0:28:29.639
<v Speaker 1>collected as much of this stuff as he could, and

0:28:29.680 --> 0:28:32.280
<v Speaker 1>then a few days later he drove it down to Roswell,

0:28:32.359 --> 0:28:35.200
<v Speaker 1>New Mexico, to hand it over to the local sheriff.

0:28:36.280 --> 0:28:40.280
<v Speaker 1>This innocent chain of events would eventually be reported as

0:28:40.320 --> 0:28:45.920
<v Speaker 1>a rancher having salvaged the wreckage of a flying saucer. Now,

0:28:45.960 --> 0:28:48.800
<v Speaker 1>the US military thought maybe it was best to just

0:28:49.400 --> 0:28:53.840
<v Speaker 1>let the flying saucer story go unchallenged, because the truth

0:28:53.840 --> 0:28:56.040
<v Speaker 1>of the matter was the balloon was part of the

0:28:56.120 --> 0:29:01.520
<v Speaker 1>aforementioned Project Mogul. But you were entering into an era

0:29:01.680 --> 0:29:05.080
<v Speaker 1>of observations by balloon, and so there were a lot

0:29:05.120 --> 0:29:09.960
<v Speaker 1>of UFOs that were out there, not extraterrestrial, but unidentified

0:29:10.000 --> 0:29:12.000
<v Speaker 1>by the people on the ground. And because the US

0:29:12.120 --> 0:29:16.240
<v Speaker 1>military didn't want to talk about espionage, because despite what

0:29:16.320 --> 0:29:18.880
<v Speaker 1>a certain James Bond would have you believe, it's best

0:29:19.000 --> 0:29:21.520
<v Speaker 1>not to walk into a room and introduce yourself as

0:29:21.520 --> 0:29:25.160
<v Speaker 1>a spy to everybody, folks were left to fill in

0:29:25.200 --> 0:29:28.440
<v Speaker 1>the gaps of their understanding with all sorts of speculation

0:29:28.680 --> 0:29:32.520
<v Speaker 1>and nonsense. They weren't told that the US was using

0:29:32.560 --> 0:29:35.680
<v Speaker 1>balloons to try and keep tabs on the Soviet Union

0:29:36.200 --> 0:29:38.800
<v Speaker 1>because the US didn't want the Soviet Union to know that,

0:29:39.360 --> 0:29:42.120
<v Speaker 1>So they were left to just kind of figure out

0:29:42.160 --> 0:29:45.120
<v Speaker 1>what the heck this stuff was. Even when a Kentucky

0:29:45.200 --> 0:29:50.520
<v Speaker 1>National Guard pilot and military pilot died in an accident

0:29:50.560 --> 0:29:54.320
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen forty seven while he was trying to identify

0:29:54.520 --> 0:29:57.920
<v Speaker 1>an object in the sky that was very likely an

0:29:57.920 --> 0:30:03.240
<v Speaker 1>observation balloon, the military states silent on this because that

0:30:03.360 --> 0:30:07.040
<v Speaker 1>was classified. Not even pilots were told that there were

0:30:07.040 --> 0:30:11.000
<v Speaker 1>this there was a surveillance balloon program that was active.

0:30:11.680 --> 0:30:15.000
<v Speaker 1>That kind of silence continues to this very day. All Right,

0:30:15.120 --> 0:30:17.000
<v Speaker 1>we're gonna take another break. When we come back, we'll

0:30:17.000 --> 0:30:30.680
<v Speaker 1>continue the history of spy balloons, all right, So we

0:30:30.760 --> 0:30:34.120
<v Speaker 1>talked about Project Mogul, which was designed to listen in

0:30:34.160 --> 0:30:40.720
<v Speaker 1>for the evidence of atomic weapon detonations, but for more

0:30:40.800 --> 0:30:44.480
<v Speaker 1>direct observation, the US created a couple of projects, one

0:30:44.520 --> 0:30:49.080
<v Speaker 1>called Project moby Dick and another one called Project Genetrics.

0:30:49.760 --> 0:30:53.320
<v Speaker 1>These were balloons that carried cameras that were meant to

0:30:53.360 --> 0:30:57.800
<v Speaker 1>gather intels, specifically on the Soviet Union and on China,

0:30:57.840 --> 0:31:00.400
<v Speaker 1>and they would float at altitudes of more than fifty

0:31:00.440 --> 0:31:03.320
<v Speaker 1>thousand feet, which put them out of range of fighter

0:31:03.400 --> 0:31:07.160
<v Speaker 1>aircraft at the time. Because it's pretty common for these

0:31:07.200 --> 0:31:09.479
<v Speaker 1>aircraft not to have sort of oxygen equipment, so they

0:31:09.480 --> 0:31:12.800
<v Speaker 1>couldn't go and higher altitudes pilots would pass out they

0:31:12.800 --> 0:31:16.120
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't be able to breathe. So the idea was that

0:31:16.160 --> 0:31:19.480
<v Speaker 1>these balloons would remain out of reach of Soviet forces,

0:31:19.480 --> 0:31:22.160
<v Speaker 1>but they would still be able to take detailed photographs

0:31:22.160 --> 0:31:26.200
<v Speaker 1>and film of the ground below. But she still had

0:31:26.240 --> 0:31:28.200
<v Speaker 1>to retrieve the darned things. By the way. They would

0:31:28.200 --> 0:31:33.720
<v Speaker 1>release these in various places around the world, like in Turkey, Norway, Scotland,

0:31:34.000 --> 0:31:36.840
<v Speaker 1>and they would just let the air currents carry the

0:31:36.880 --> 0:31:45.320
<v Speaker 1>balloons across the Eastern Asian continent. Well, there were a

0:31:45.320 --> 0:31:48.080
<v Speaker 1>couple of ways that the US would try to retrieve

0:31:48.600 --> 0:31:55.480
<v Speaker 1>these payloads once they had drifted across the USSR and China.

0:31:55.640 --> 0:31:58.360
<v Speaker 1>One was just to wait until payload released from its

0:31:58.400 --> 0:32:02.000
<v Speaker 1>balloon parachuted into the Sea of Japan, whereupon a US

0:32:02.080 --> 0:32:06.480
<v Speaker 1>Navy vessel would rendezvous and pick up the payload. But

0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:10.680
<v Speaker 1>the other was to use an aircraft to catch the

0:32:10.760 --> 0:32:14.840
<v Speaker 1>payload as it was falling in midair. This aircraft was

0:32:14.880 --> 0:32:18.800
<v Speaker 1>the C one nineteen flying box car. This aircraft was

0:32:18.880 --> 0:32:22.160
<v Speaker 1>used for tons of different stuff, including deploying airborne troops.

0:32:22.200 --> 0:32:26.280
<v Speaker 1>So like parachute corps would jump out of C one nineteens.

0:32:27.080 --> 0:32:30.120
<v Speaker 1>But this aircraft could also go long for a hail

0:32:30.200 --> 0:32:32.320
<v Speaker 1>merry pass, which is my dumb way of saying. They

0:32:32.320 --> 0:32:36.320
<v Speaker 1>could be outfitted with equipment designed to snag a descending payload.

0:32:37.160 --> 0:32:40.080
<v Speaker 1>But the Soviets caught on to the Shenanigans for one thing.

0:32:40.720 --> 0:32:44.080
<v Speaker 1>In the early morning hours, these balloons would drift at

0:32:44.080 --> 0:32:47.680
<v Speaker 1>a significantly lower altitude. Again, this is because the gas

0:32:47.680 --> 0:32:51.920
<v Speaker 1>inside the balloons would cool down overnight. Then as they cooled,

0:32:52.000 --> 0:32:54.440
<v Speaker 1>they became more dense and they lost some of the

0:32:54.480 --> 0:32:58.040
<v Speaker 1>balloons buoyancy. Then they would float low enough for some

0:32:58.120 --> 0:33:03.480
<v Speaker 1>Soviet aircraft to fire upon these surveillance balloons. And so

0:33:03.960 --> 0:33:07.760
<v Speaker 1>really just a fraction of the balloons launched were ever retrieved.

0:33:08.240 --> 0:33:10.880
<v Speaker 1>I think they launched more than five hundred of one

0:33:10.920 --> 0:33:14.800
<v Speaker 1>of these, and I think around fifty were finally retrieved.

0:33:15.240 --> 0:33:19.160
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, it was not great odds. The Soviets managed

0:33:19.160 --> 0:33:21.560
<v Speaker 1>to get hold of some of the payloads and they said, hey,

0:33:22.360 --> 0:33:26.560
<v Speaker 1>United States, stop violating our sovereignty by sending these spy

0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:29.960
<v Speaker 1>balloons over our country. And the US responded in a

0:33:30.000 --> 0:33:33.960
<v Speaker 1>couple of different ways. One was to say, hey, easy comrade,

0:33:34.040 --> 0:33:36.760
<v Speaker 1>these are just weather balloons. We're just studying the weather,

0:33:37.160 --> 0:33:39.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, all over the world to get a better

0:33:39.520 --> 0:33:42.320
<v Speaker 1>idea how weather and climate patterns happened. No big deal,

0:33:42.360 --> 0:33:45.560
<v Speaker 1>we can't even control where these things go. The other

0:33:46.160 --> 0:33:50.480
<v Speaker 1>strategy was to say, hey, nobody owns the upper atmosphere.

0:33:50.880 --> 0:33:53.400
<v Speaker 1>Airspace only extends as far up as you can use it,

0:33:53.440 --> 0:33:55.640
<v Speaker 1>and you don't have any aircraft that can go that high,

0:33:55.840 --> 0:33:59.320
<v Speaker 1>so go pound sand. As you can imagine. The Soviets

0:33:59.360 --> 0:34:02.000
<v Speaker 1>didn't they guy. These responses had very much merit to them,

0:34:02.440 --> 0:34:05.560
<v Speaker 1>But the US would end up migrating away from balloons

0:34:05.600 --> 0:34:09.240
<v Speaker 1>as a main method of spying, not necessarily because balloons

0:34:09.239 --> 0:34:12.960
<v Speaker 1>were ineffective, but because the United States had secretly developed

0:34:13.280 --> 0:34:18.120
<v Speaker 1>aircraft like fixed wing aircraft that could fly at extreme altitudes,

0:34:18.640 --> 0:34:21.320
<v Speaker 1>namely the U two spy plane. And for those of

0:34:21.400 --> 0:34:24.080
<v Speaker 1>y'all interested in that story, I recommend searching the Tech

0:34:24.120 --> 0:34:27.040
<v Speaker 1>Stuff archives for our old episodes about the U two,

0:34:27.600 --> 0:34:32.000
<v Speaker 1>because that story is crazy all on its own. Also,

0:34:32.040 --> 0:34:35.200
<v Speaker 1>by the late nineteen fifties we started getting into the

0:34:35.280 --> 0:34:38.920
<v Speaker 1>space age. Spootnick was the first man made satellite to

0:34:38.960 --> 0:34:41.560
<v Speaker 1>go into orbit. It was launched on October fourth, nineteen

0:34:41.600 --> 0:34:45.040
<v Speaker 1>fifty seven. It essentially just went beep, sent out a

0:34:45.040 --> 0:34:48.280
<v Speaker 1>little radio signal as it moved through its orbital pattern.

0:34:48.880 --> 0:34:52.280
<v Speaker 1>But this still had an enormous impact around the world.

0:34:52.719 --> 0:34:55.360
<v Speaker 1>For one thing, folks in the United States became terrified

0:34:55.480 --> 0:34:59.160
<v Speaker 1>because if the USSR could launch a payload into space,

0:34:59.239 --> 0:35:03.040
<v Speaker 1>then they potentially launch a nuclear weapon at the United

0:35:03.080 --> 0:35:08.240
<v Speaker 1>States aboard an intercontinental ballistic missile. Then America suddenly felt

0:35:08.280 --> 0:35:11.359
<v Speaker 1>a threat that earlier had been hard for them to

0:35:11.400 --> 0:35:15.719
<v Speaker 1>really imagine, because otherwise the thought was they would have

0:35:15.800 --> 0:35:20.600
<v Speaker 1>to fly nuclear payloads over in bomber aircraft which could

0:35:20.600 --> 0:35:25.439
<v Speaker 1>be intercepted between the USSR the United States. Now there

0:35:25.560 --> 0:35:28.640
<v Speaker 1>was this very real threat of things being delivered via missile.

0:35:29.080 --> 0:35:33.160
<v Speaker 1>But in addition to this fun source of existential dread,

0:35:33.440 --> 0:35:36.200
<v Speaker 1>there was also the concern that should you create a

0:35:36.360 --> 0:35:40.200
<v Speaker 1>satellite that was capable of maintaining orbit for a while,

0:35:40.400 --> 0:35:43.400
<v Speaker 1>and you outfit it with the right kinds of equipment,

0:35:44.080 --> 0:35:46.480
<v Speaker 1>it would pass over the Earth in arcs that could

0:35:46.520 --> 0:35:50.880
<v Speaker 1>gather information using stuff like powerful cameras, you could spy

0:35:51.120 --> 0:35:55.480
<v Speaker 1>on other countries well beyond even the stratosphere. And sure,

0:35:55.520 --> 0:35:57.840
<v Speaker 1>at first we would need to be able to retrieve

0:35:58.440 --> 0:36:01.279
<v Speaker 1>the payloads of these dallites. They wouldn't be designed to

0:36:01.280 --> 0:36:04.160
<v Speaker 1>stay up there Perpetually, they would come down and we

0:36:04.160 --> 0:36:06.560
<v Speaker 1>would have to retrieve them in order to get the

0:36:06.600 --> 0:36:09.799
<v Speaker 1>information that was captured. But over time we'd be able

0:36:09.880 --> 0:36:13.520
<v Speaker 1>to maintain a live connection with these satellites. So we

0:36:13.520 --> 0:36:18.040
<v Speaker 1>were entering the era of satellite surveillance. However, balloons would

0:36:18.040 --> 0:36:21.400
<v Speaker 1>continue to remain useful. For one thing, you could deploy

0:36:21.480 --> 0:36:25.520
<v Speaker 1>balloons pretty quickly, whereas with satellites there's a whole lot

0:36:25.520 --> 0:36:27.960
<v Speaker 1>of prep work that goes into it. Even if you

0:36:28.000 --> 0:36:31.480
<v Speaker 1>want to divert a satellite, that's not always possible, and

0:36:31.600 --> 0:36:34.440
<v Speaker 1>when it is, it's not always easy, So sometimes you

0:36:34.480 --> 0:36:39.040
<v Speaker 1>need to have an alternative that you can use quickly. Also,

0:36:39.080 --> 0:36:43.839
<v Speaker 1>balloons remain useful because folks expect higher tech approaches to surveillance.

0:36:44.239 --> 0:36:48.440
<v Speaker 1>America used helium balloons carrying cameras both infrared and visible

0:36:48.520 --> 0:36:53.120
<v Speaker 1>light video cameras to surveil a rock nearly twenty years ago,

0:36:53.280 --> 0:36:55.840
<v Speaker 1>around two thousand and four. The US also made similar

0:36:55.920 --> 0:37:02.920
<v Speaker 1>use of observation balloons over Afghanistan during that extremely long war. Okay,

0:37:02.960 --> 0:37:06.040
<v Speaker 1>so we get to the point now where surveillance balloons

0:37:06.120 --> 0:37:09.040
<v Speaker 1>can be more sophisticated. Right, you can have a surveillance

0:37:09.080 --> 0:37:13.239
<v Speaker 1>balloon that has a perpetual radio connection back to a

0:37:13.400 --> 0:37:18.560
<v Speaker 1>control point, so you can get real time data from

0:37:18.600 --> 0:37:23.480
<v Speaker 1>these surveillance balloons. It's no longer let it go hope

0:37:23.480 --> 0:37:25.920
<v Speaker 1>that you can retrieve it later and then get to

0:37:25.960 --> 0:37:29.280
<v Speaker 1>the data. Then now we can have a perpetual signal.

0:37:30.239 --> 0:37:32.720
<v Speaker 1>When you can pair it with stuff like solar panels,

0:37:32.800 --> 0:37:36.320
<v Speaker 1>then the balloons payload can continue to draw a power

0:37:37.080 --> 0:37:41.120
<v Speaker 1>from solar power and be an action longer. These are

0:37:41.320 --> 0:37:44.440
<v Speaker 1>things that were not possible, you know, obviously early on

0:37:44.520 --> 0:37:47.439
<v Speaker 1>in the use of spy balloons. But now let's get

0:37:47.480 --> 0:37:49.719
<v Speaker 1>to the Chinese balloon that got us started on this

0:37:49.760 --> 0:37:54.319
<v Speaker 1>whole topic. On January twenty eighth, twenty twenty three, the

0:37:54.440 --> 0:37:58.120
<v Speaker 1>North American Aerospace Defense Command, which is a part of

0:37:58.120 --> 0:38:01.759
<v Speaker 1>a US military organization, detects and begins to track a

0:38:01.800 --> 0:38:06.040
<v Speaker 1>balloon that's drifting over Alaska, which is in the northwest

0:38:06.080 --> 0:38:08.920
<v Speaker 1>of the United States. It borders Canada, it is not

0:38:09.080 --> 0:38:13.839
<v Speaker 1>part of the contiguous US At the time. The agency

0:38:14.000 --> 0:38:16.840
<v Speaker 1>determined that there was no risk from the balloon, either

0:38:17.200 --> 0:38:21.920
<v Speaker 1>from physical threats or from surveillance, so the agency decided

0:38:21.960 --> 0:38:25.120
<v Speaker 1>to just continue tracking it there was Since it didn't

0:38:25.719 --> 0:38:27.760
<v Speaker 1>stand as a threat, there was no reason to intervene

0:38:27.800 --> 0:38:31.880
<v Speaker 1>at that moment. On January thirtieth, the balloon drifted over

0:38:32.280 --> 0:38:37.280
<v Speaker 1>into Canadian airspace. Nor Rad kept eyes on the balloon,

0:38:37.360 --> 0:38:39.960
<v Speaker 1>and experts determined that, based upon the fact the balloon

0:38:40.000 --> 0:38:43.640
<v Speaker 1>had solar panels to power its payload, the balloon's purpose

0:38:43.760 --> 0:38:47.120
<v Speaker 1>was likely to gather intelligence. It was most likely a

0:38:47.200 --> 0:38:51.160
<v Speaker 1>spy balloon. They also saw that the balloon appeared to

0:38:51.160 --> 0:38:54.600
<v Speaker 1>be outfitted with propellers and motors, indicating that it could

0:38:54.640 --> 0:38:57.839
<v Speaker 1>be radio controlled to direct its flight, so it could

0:38:57.840 --> 0:39:03.480
<v Speaker 1>at least move in areas that we're not just determined

0:39:03.520 --> 0:39:07.759
<v Speaker 1>by air currents. On January thirty first, twenty twenty three,

0:39:07.800 --> 0:39:10.799
<v Speaker 1>the balloon passed out of Canadian airspace and back over

0:39:10.960 --> 0:39:16.839
<v Speaker 1>into US airspace. This time it was over Idaho, and

0:39:16.880 --> 0:39:19.440
<v Speaker 1>it's at this point that the US President, Joe Biden,

0:39:19.800 --> 0:39:23.880
<v Speaker 1>ordered the military to shoot down the balloon. The military

0:39:23.920 --> 0:39:26.040
<v Speaker 1>decided it was best to shoot down the balloon when

0:39:26.040 --> 0:39:29.880
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't over a populated area, both to minimize the

0:39:29.960 --> 0:39:34.479
<v Speaker 1>chance for damage to citizens and citizen property, as well

0:39:34.520 --> 0:39:36.920
<v Speaker 1>as to increase the chances that the military would be

0:39:36.920 --> 0:39:40.520
<v Speaker 1>able to retrieve the payload. Plus, at the time, the

0:39:40.560 --> 0:39:46.440
<v Speaker 1>balloon was not passing over any really secret bases or

0:39:46.480 --> 0:39:51.479
<v Speaker 1>anything or military operations, so they were thinking, if it's

0:39:51.480 --> 0:39:54.680
<v Speaker 1>over Idaho and it's not over something sensitive, we can

0:39:54.760 --> 0:39:56.440
<v Speaker 1>let it be for now and wait for it to

0:39:56.480 --> 0:39:58.080
<v Speaker 1>move over to a place where we can take it

0:39:58.160 --> 0:40:02.279
<v Speaker 1>down safely. In the time, the military continued to track

0:40:02.320 --> 0:40:04.880
<v Speaker 1>the progress of the balloon and started to make proactive

0:40:04.920 --> 0:40:07.120
<v Speaker 1>decisions to prevent it from being able to gather any

0:40:07.200 --> 0:40:12.040
<v Speaker 1>useful intelligence. They would postpone or cancel things that would

0:40:12.080 --> 0:40:15.479
<v Speaker 1>potentially get picked up by the balloon. They curtailed all

0:40:15.600 --> 0:40:19.120
<v Speaker 1>unencrypted communication so that the balloon wouldn't be able to

0:40:19.160 --> 0:40:23.239
<v Speaker 1>pick up on radio communications between military units that might

0:40:23.440 --> 0:40:27.080
<v Speaker 1>give some sensitive information to the Chinese. They were minimizing

0:40:27.120 --> 0:40:30.240
<v Speaker 1>the amount of information that this balloon could potentially snoop

0:40:30.239 --> 0:40:33.080
<v Speaker 1>in on and send back to China. The next couple

0:40:33.080 --> 0:40:35.960
<v Speaker 1>of days had the US tracking the balloon. Some folks

0:40:36.120 --> 0:40:39.279
<v Speaker 1>on the conservative side of the political spectrum began to

0:40:39.320 --> 0:40:43.920
<v Speaker 1>criticize the Biden administration for not taking action already they

0:40:43.920 --> 0:40:46.640
<v Speaker 1>didn't have all the information, though personally, I think trying

0:40:46.640 --> 0:40:49.840
<v Speaker 1>to avoid having debris hit citizens as a worthwhile endeavor,

0:40:50.160 --> 0:40:54.080
<v Speaker 1>but then what do I know? Anyway, By Friday, February third,

0:40:54.200 --> 0:40:57.080
<v Speaker 1>China had actually owned up to having launched this balloon.

0:40:57.120 --> 0:40:59.560
<v Speaker 1>But China was claiming that it was essentially a weather

0:40:59.600 --> 0:41:02.640
<v Speaker 1>balloon that just got blown off course, that this was

0:41:02.680 --> 0:41:06.040
<v Speaker 1>not intended to fly into US airspace and in fact

0:41:06.160 --> 0:41:11.560
<v Speaker 1>was part of a scientific operation, and the fact that

0:41:11.600 --> 0:41:16.200
<v Speaker 1>it was outfitted with propellers and motors kind of contradicted

0:41:16.239 --> 0:41:20.440
<v Speaker 1>that claim a bit. And the US said, we are

0:41:20.520 --> 0:41:22.960
<v Speaker 1>not buying it because we use that same excuse with

0:41:23.000 --> 0:41:26.080
<v Speaker 1>the Soviets back in the fifties, and we know it's

0:41:26.080 --> 0:41:29.200
<v Speaker 1>a lie because we lied back then. And further, the

0:41:29.320 --> 0:41:32.520
<v Speaker 1>US said this was a violation of its sovereignty. Also

0:41:32.600 --> 0:41:35.680
<v Speaker 1>interesting side note, when it comes to airspace, we actually

0:41:35.760 --> 0:41:39.440
<v Speaker 1>do not have a firm international agreement on the vertical

0:41:39.640 --> 0:41:42.600
<v Speaker 1>limitations of airspace, Like we know how far out it

0:41:42.680 --> 0:41:45.839
<v Speaker 1>extends from a country, but we don't know how far

0:41:46.000 --> 0:41:48.160
<v Speaker 1>up it extends. At least we don't agree on that.

0:41:48.840 --> 0:41:52.680
<v Speaker 1>And this gets complicated because stuff like satellites obviously can

0:41:52.719 --> 0:41:55.600
<v Speaker 1>cross the entire planet many times in a day, like

0:41:55.760 --> 0:41:59.080
<v Speaker 1>some do a full orbit in like ninety minutes, so

0:41:59.239 --> 0:42:02.239
<v Speaker 1>if you had to quest permission to cross over the

0:42:02.280 --> 0:42:06.400
<v Speaker 1>areas that a satellite was traveling around, that would be impractical.

0:42:06.440 --> 0:42:09.759
<v Speaker 1>So we're kind of in a murky area here. Well.

0:42:09.800 --> 0:42:13.680
<v Speaker 1>On Saturday, February fourth and f twenty two, Stealth Fighter,

0:42:13.719 --> 0:42:16.880
<v Speaker 1>one of the most advanced fighter jets in the world,

0:42:17.680 --> 0:42:20.960
<v Speaker 1>takes off from Langley Air Force Base in Virginia, flies

0:42:21.000 --> 0:42:24.120
<v Speaker 1>to an area off the coast of South Carolina, and

0:42:24.160 --> 0:42:28.080
<v Speaker 1>it fires an AIM nine X sidewinder air to air

0:42:28.160 --> 0:42:31.080
<v Speaker 1>missile at this balloon, which at that point was at

0:42:31.080 --> 0:42:34.280
<v Speaker 1>an altitude of between sixty thousand and sixty five thousand feet.

0:42:34.920 --> 0:42:37.880
<v Speaker 1>Needless to say, the balloon did not survive this encounter

0:42:37.960 --> 0:42:41.000
<v Speaker 1>with a missile. The wreckage fell into an area that's

0:42:41.000 --> 0:42:44.120
<v Speaker 1>about six miles off the coast of South Carolina. This

0:42:44.239 --> 0:42:47.200
<v Speaker 1>is well within the twelve miles of territorial waters, so

0:42:47.239 --> 0:42:49.920
<v Speaker 1>this still makes it a US based operation. The US

0:42:49.960 --> 0:42:53.720
<v Speaker 1>still has sovereignty over that water. The Department of Defense

0:42:53.800 --> 0:42:57.120
<v Speaker 1>issues a statement that reassures US citizens that the balloon

0:42:57.200 --> 0:42:59.959
<v Speaker 1>never posed any sort of physical threat, so it wasn't

0:43:00.120 --> 0:43:05.080
<v Speaker 1>carrying a weapons payload, but that it did violate US sovereignty.

0:43:06.239 --> 0:43:09.960
<v Speaker 1>Further review of earlier intelligence then revealed that China had

0:43:09.960 --> 0:43:14.360
<v Speaker 1>flown balloons over the US at least four times in

0:43:14.400 --> 0:43:17.879
<v Speaker 1>the recent past that were not intercepted or taken down.

0:43:18.480 --> 0:43:21.839
<v Speaker 1>Three of those incidents happened while Trump was president. One

0:43:22.280 --> 0:43:27.839
<v Speaker 1>happened earlier in Biden's presidency. On February tenth, twenty twenty three,

0:43:28.160 --> 0:43:31.880
<v Speaker 1>the US shot down a quote unquote high altitude object

0:43:31.960 --> 0:43:34.719
<v Speaker 1>off the coast of Alaska. Not at the time, the

0:43:34.800 --> 0:43:37.040
<v Speaker 1>US wasn't sure if it was in fact a balloon,

0:43:37.640 --> 0:43:42.480
<v Speaker 1>let alone where it came from. Further investigation indicated that

0:43:42.520 --> 0:43:46.880
<v Speaker 1>this particular object was from quote commercial or research entities

0:43:46.920 --> 0:43:50.560
<v Speaker 1>and therefore totally benign end quote that's according to the

0:43:50.560 --> 0:43:54.160
<v Speaker 1>White House. So in other words, they shot down a

0:43:54.239 --> 0:43:57.279
<v Speaker 1>balloon that was not intended to be used for surveillance,

0:43:57.280 --> 0:44:00.399
<v Speaker 1>but was for some other purpose. And you might, I'd say,

0:44:00.400 --> 0:44:03.480
<v Speaker 1>this whole balloon thing is kind of taken off, and

0:44:03.520 --> 0:44:07.440
<v Speaker 1>that the military reaction has similarly been on an upward trajectory.

0:44:08.320 --> 0:44:14.040
<v Speaker 1>Dad jokes. The Northern Illinois Bottle Cap Balloon Brigade a

0:44:14.200 --> 0:44:17.719
<v Speaker 1>hobbyist group that sends up helium balloons with small payloads,

0:44:17.719 --> 0:44:21.720
<v Speaker 1>the sort of pico balloon approach just to do stuff

0:44:21.760 --> 0:44:23.880
<v Speaker 1>like gathered data, which can end up being things like

0:44:23.960 --> 0:44:28.520
<v Speaker 1>to help with weather models. They can take photos, high

0:44:28.560 --> 0:44:32.000
<v Speaker 1>altitude photos. It's really meant to be a science based hobby,

0:44:32.320 --> 0:44:34.520
<v Speaker 1>and there are like websites out there that will sell

0:44:34.560 --> 0:44:37.719
<v Speaker 1>you the kits and the and the balloons that you

0:44:37.760 --> 0:44:41.799
<v Speaker 1>can use to launch these sorts of things. Anyway, this

0:44:41.880 --> 0:44:45.120
<v Speaker 1>hobbyist group reported that one of its balloons was quote

0:44:45.160 --> 0:44:49.680
<v Speaker 1>unquote missing in action. Further, it reported that the last

0:44:49.760 --> 0:44:54.239
<v Speaker 1>known location was over Alaska, and that on February eleventh

0:44:54.520 --> 0:44:58.400
<v Speaker 1>and F twenty two jets shot down an unidentified airborne

0:44:58.440 --> 0:45:02.640
<v Speaker 1>object in that ural vicinity. So the implication is that

0:45:02.760 --> 0:45:06.560
<v Speaker 1>the US military and what is perhaps an overabundance of

0:45:06.600 --> 0:45:12.279
<v Speaker 1>caution or you could argue paranoia, shot down a hobbyist

0:45:12.360 --> 0:45:16.760
<v Speaker 1>weather balloon. Now, according to weatherboy dot com, the balloon

0:45:17.480 --> 0:45:20.759
<v Speaker 1>probably costs somewhere in the neighborhood of twelve bucks, and

0:45:20.840 --> 0:45:25.000
<v Speaker 1>the payload was also probably around that same amount of money. Now,

0:45:25.640 --> 0:45:29.040
<v Speaker 1>I do not know what the F twenty two used

0:45:29.200 --> 0:45:33.120
<v Speaker 1>to take down this particular unidentified object, nor can I

0:45:33.160 --> 0:45:35.760
<v Speaker 1>even say that the F twenty two actually shot down

0:45:35.800 --> 0:45:40.880
<v Speaker 1>the hobbyist balloon. These could be two separate events that

0:45:40.960 --> 0:45:43.640
<v Speaker 1>they may not be the hobbyist balloon that this F

0:45:43.760 --> 0:45:46.800
<v Speaker 1>twenty two took down. It could just be coincidence. However,

0:45:47.560 --> 0:45:50.720
<v Speaker 1>what I can say is that a single sidewinder missile

0:45:51.080 --> 0:45:56.560
<v Speaker 1>costs nearly four hundred thousand dollars. So it's tempting for

0:45:56.600 --> 0:45:59.879
<v Speaker 1>me to joke that the United States wasted a four

0:46:00.160 --> 0:46:04.080
<v Speaker 1>hundred thousand dollars weapon to take down a twelve dollar

0:46:04.239 --> 0:46:10.680
<v Speaker 1>helium balloon carrying a similarly priced hobbyist payload. But we

0:46:10.800 --> 0:46:13.960
<v Speaker 1>do not know that for certain. I do not know

0:46:14.560 --> 0:46:16.759
<v Speaker 1>that the object that the F twenty two shot down

0:46:17.040 --> 0:46:19.840
<v Speaker 1>was this hobbyist balloon. I don't know what method the

0:46:19.880 --> 0:46:22.239
<v Speaker 1>pilot used to take down the object. Maybe they didn't

0:46:22.280 --> 0:46:25.720
<v Speaker 1>use a sidewinder missile at all. So I cannot really

0:46:25.880 --> 0:46:29.000
<v Speaker 1>be as irresponsible as to joke about it, But boy

0:46:29.120 --> 0:46:33.719
<v Speaker 1>do I really want to. So. Surveillance balloons are still

0:46:33.840 --> 0:46:36.440
<v Speaker 1>very much a thing, But so our balloons meant to

0:46:36.440 --> 0:46:40.000
<v Speaker 1>make scientific observations and to increase our understanding of how

0:46:40.040 --> 0:46:46.000
<v Speaker 1>the world and beyond works. This creates a complicated issue, right,

0:46:46.480 --> 0:46:49.920
<v Speaker 1>how do you determine if a balloon stands as a

0:46:50.000 --> 0:46:54.680
<v Speaker 1>threat to intelligence or is just there to further our knowledge.

0:46:55.280 --> 0:46:59.160
<v Speaker 1>There aren't really easy answers to this. The more you

0:46:59.200 --> 0:47:02.880
<v Speaker 1>know about the origins of the balloon, the more the

0:47:02.920 --> 0:47:05.960
<v Speaker 1>more you can guess at the intent for that balloon.

0:47:06.680 --> 0:47:09.719
<v Speaker 1>And I think that's really what you have to rely upon.

0:47:09.840 --> 0:47:13.440
<v Speaker 1>But at the same time, if you don't act well,

0:47:13.520 --> 0:47:16.200
<v Speaker 1>then you get criticized, right because we saw that happen

0:47:16.239 --> 0:47:20.560
<v Speaker 1>with the first balloon back earlier in February, that if

0:47:20.560 --> 0:47:25.600
<v Speaker 1>you don't act, you stand at risk of being criticized

0:47:25.640 --> 0:47:29.799
<v Speaker 1>by the opposition for failing to take the safety of

0:47:30.040 --> 0:47:34.359
<v Speaker 1>the United States seriously. However, if you act prematurely, then

0:47:34.440 --> 0:47:38.200
<v Speaker 1>you get criticized of being trigger happy and shooting down

0:47:38.400 --> 0:47:45.560
<v Speaker 1>legitimate scientific oriented equipment. It turns into a no win situation,

0:47:45.719 --> 0:47:48.960
<v Speaker 1>right You act too quickly and you're seen as being

0:47:49.000 --> 0:47:53.600
<v Speaker 1>irresponsible and paranoid. You don't act quickly enough, you're criticized

0:47:53.719 --> 0:47:58.160
<v Speaker 1>of not taking security seriously. I don't really have an

0:47:58.160 --> 0:48:02.040
<v Speaker 1>answer for how we solve this issue. It is a

0:48:02.120 --> 0:48:05.399
<v Speaker 1>really difficult one to do. It might even be one

0:48:05.400 --> 0:48:09.719
<v Speaker 1>of China's objectives, right, like not just to gather surveillance

0:48:10.200 --> 0:48:14.719
<v Speaker 1>but to create this kind of environment where the current

0:48:14.760 --> 0:48:18.160
<v Speaker 1>administration really has a no win situation on their hands.

0:48:18.440 --> 0:48:21.600
<v Speaker 1>They get criticized no matter what they do or don't

0:48:21.600 --> 0:48:26.520
<v Speaker 1>do in the case of waiting. So yeah, complicated thing.

0:48:26.800 --> 0:48:28.799
<v Speaker 1>I don't think we're going to see surveillance balloons go

0:48:28.840 --> 0:48:33.200
<v Speaker 1>away too soon, because again, they can be effective even

0:48:33.239 --> 0:48:36.239
<v Speaker 1>if it's just a form of psychological warfare. But I

0:48:36.280 --> 0:48:38.960
<v Speaker 1>thought this would be an interesting topic. Hope you agree.

0:48:39.160 --> 0:48:41.399
<v Speaker 1>If you have suggestions for topics I should cover in

0:48:41.520 --> 0:48:44.000
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0:48:44.080 --> 0:48:46.840
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0:48:46.960 --> 0:48:51.040
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0:48:51.120 --> 0:48:54.200
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0:49:00.680 --> 0:49:04.120
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0:49:10.120 --> 0:49:14.759
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