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Speaker 1: This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast.

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Speaker 1: Chris Harrison and Lauren Zema coming to you and Elsie

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Speaker 1: today we're opening up the playbook. When do you know

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Speaker 1: it's over? How do you know when it's time to

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Speaker 1: get out?

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Speaker 2: I feel like I have this discussion with friends all

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Speaker 2: the time. And then you and I were talking about

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Speaker 2: so many celebrity breakups that have happened lately, Sophia Regara

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Speaker 2: and Joe mngnello. Natalie Portman and her husband are reportedly

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Speaker 2: splitting after news of him having an alleged a fair

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Speaker 2: leaked our own. Caitlin Bristow and Jason Tartick announced that

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Speaker 2: they have ended their engagement.

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Speaker 3: There are so.

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Speaker 2: Many celebrity breakups and this is a topic that no

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Speaker 2: matter how much technology changes things, relationships, as we know

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Speaker 2: from this podcast, are always something you have to dive

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Speaker 2: into and dissect. And I was just then on top

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Speaker 2: of the celect news having this conversation with someone we

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Speaker 2: were spending the week with about how she would know

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Speaker 2: if her relationship was over. And I you know, when

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Speaker 2: you advise people, I think everybody, everybody kind of wants

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Speaker 2: you to tell them the answer, right right. People want

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Speaker 2: you to help them make the decision, and.

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Speaker 1: Then they don't usually want that answer right.

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Speaker 2: And we never we never listen to all the advice

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Speaker 2: that we get, because really.

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Speaker 1: What you should say is please tell me what I

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Speaker 1: want to hear.

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Speaker 2: Right. Well, and don't you think on some level you

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Speaker 2: know that you have to get to the place where

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Speaker 2: you can admit it to yourself. But you know there's

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Speaker 2: an old episode of Sex and the City, the original,

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Speaker 2: not the new, and just like that which I have

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Speaker 2: not watched, where Charlotte, the character Charlotte says that the

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Speaker 2: amount of time it takes to get over a breakup

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Speaker 2: is something like one month for every year you were together.

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Speaker 2: And I was thinking, is there an amount of time

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Speaker 2: dependent on how long you've been in the relationship, an

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Speaker 2: amount of time that it's going to take you to

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Speaker 2: know it's over?

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I would think that grows. I think just

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Speaker 1: as she's saying, you would cut because I heard the

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Speaker 1: breakup thing, and I think a therapist even told me

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Speaker 1: this once the amount of time you've been married, it'll

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Speaker 1: take half that long to get really over it, truly,

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Speaker 1: fully and complete. So if you're married for ten years,

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Speaker 1: five years is what it's going to take for you

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Speaker 1: to mentally, emotionally and everything to truly it's not like

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Speaker 1: you can't move on before that, but to really officially

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Speaker 1: be kind of unwound and move on, which is very interesting.

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Speaker 1: But I think the opposite is true for being in

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Speaker 1: a relationship. If you've been in for a year, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's probably not going to take you that long to

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Speaker 1: be like, okay, the emotional ties your lives aren't that intertwined.

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Speaker 1: If you've been married for twenty or thirty years, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot more to unpack.

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Speaker 3: I think it's also dependent on your age.

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Speaker 2: I think when you're younger, it's a little easier to

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Speaker 2: I've noticed with my friends make that breakup happen. The

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Speaker 2: older you get, the more you start to ask those questions, well,

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Speaker 2: is that my person?

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Speaker 3: And is this the one?

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Speaker 2: And I've put so much time in and then I'm

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Speaker 2: going to be X amount of years when we get

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Speaker 2: out of it, And that was kind of the discussion

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Speaker 2: I was having with this person too. But then also

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Speaker 2: the older you are, the more you kind of know

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Speaker 2: who you are and what you want and maybe you

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Speaker 2: can be more confident. So I mean, listen to all

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Speaker 2: the factors we're bringing in of how difficult it is

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Speaker 2: to know when to break up with someone.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think the overall, you know, and this isn't

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Speaker 1: going to be great if this is what you were

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Speaker 1: coming for. There's no one simple answer, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: no one thing that will let you know Okay, it's time.

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Speaker 1: But with that said, I think it's always important that

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Speaker 1: you're not too old, you're not too deep into something

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Speaker 1: to have a future. Yeah, and I know you have

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Speaker 1: a very good friend who you've dealt with through this process,

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Speaker 1: and she was in she's in a marriage and she's like, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm this old and I just don't want to start over.

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Speaker 1: That That cannot be an answer. That cannot be a path.

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Speaker 1: You can't be so afraid of starting over whatever that

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Speaker 1: you are going to stay in something that doesn't make

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Speaker 1: you happy.

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Speaker 2: But I do think that you and I each have

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Speaker 2: one really big telltale sign. Yours is from your grandmother.

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Speaker 2: So now that I've laid that on you, I'll let

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Speaker 2: you think about how you'll share it. But because I've

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Speaker 2: heard you say before, I'm telling Chris like, no, no, honey,

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Speaker 2: you have this is what you I know you have

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Speaker 2: a barometer for this mine is this. I do think

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Speaker 2: this is a very simple telltale sign that it's time

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Speaker 2: for a relationship to be over. I was in a

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Speaker 2: relationship and I realized one day we were living together,

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Speaker 2: I would pull into the driveway and hope he wasn't home.

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Speaker 2: I would literally hope almost not on even not that

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Speaker 2: I would say that out loud to myself, but I

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Speaker 2: realized this tension i'd have because I knew that when

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Speaker 2: I walked in the door, it meant not anything you know,

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Speaker 2: abusive or bad, but it meant like he was a

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Speaker 2: person who I did everything like, I made every dinner reservation,

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Speaker 2: I did all the lawn. I was taking on so

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Speaker 2: much of the workload, and he was kind of a

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Speaker 2: he was and for a long time had been really lazy.

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Speaker 2: He'd been like, very unmotivated, and so I knew I

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Speaker 2: was going to have to, you know, go in and talk.

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Speaker 2: If I just knew that when I walked in the door,

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Speaker 2: it was work for me. The relationship had become work.

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Speaker 1: You would really lament the fact that you'd open the

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Speaker 1: garage and see his car.

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Speaker 3: Sitting there, Yeah, I would.

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Speaker 2: And I found myself spending more time apart from him.

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Speaker 2: You know, maybe oh, I'm I gotta go to work

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Speaker 2: drinks and I have a work thing and I'm seeing

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Speaker 2: and so that was a really sort of basic, simple

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Speaker 2: way of do you look forward to spending time with

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Speaker 2: this person? And you know, we can get clouded and

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Speaker 2: we can justify to ourselves and say, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: relationships take work, but relationships shouldn't be work. They do

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Speaker 2: take work and effort, but they shouldn't feel like work.

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Speaker 2: And you know, by the way them taking work does matter.

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Speaker 2: Another good way to I think, see if a relationship

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Speaker 2: is over this simple question, is that person putting an

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Speaker 2: effort for you? Because I do think sure, again, we

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Speaker 2: all have times where one person is carrying a little

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Speaker 2: more low than the other and somebody's going through a

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Speaker 2: rough patch. But if you're not seeing effort anymore. I'd

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Speaker 2: been cheated on in the past, and I talked to

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Speaker 2: a friend of mine who was cheated on, and I

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Speaker 2: told her, actually, the cheating isn't the reason that the

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Speaker 2: relationship ended. I think people make mistakes, and I would

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Speaker 2: have been willing to work through some of those mistakes.

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Speaker 2: The reason the relationship ended is that when that person cheated,

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Speaker 2: he didn't put in any effort afterwards, he didn't try

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Speaker 2: to be better. He didn't and then in fact I

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Speaker 2: caught him cheating more. So, you know, there's another really

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Speaker 2: clear sign. If a person keeps cheating on you over

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Speaker 2: and over, yeah you deserve better. But yeah, so I think,

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Speaker 2: do you look forward to spending time with that person?

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Speaker 1: Sure?

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Speaker 2: Is that person putting an effort in because at the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, any relationship in your life should

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Speaker 2: always be a two way street. And you know I

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Speaker 2: would expand cheating on you over and over again. Does

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Speaker 2: that person respect you? If you don't feel respected, that's

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Speaker 2: something so basic that you got.

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Speaker 3: To get out of there.

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Speaker 1: It's really hard to be honest with yourself. You hear

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Speaker 1: people justify things and explain things away. Oh he's like this,

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Speaker 1: or oh she's like this. But and there are these

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Speaker 1: telltale signs when people keep coming to you and keep

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Speaker 1: your friends, and your friends quit hanging out with you

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Speaker 1: as much, and they.

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Speaker 2: Gosh, it's funny when you break up, isn't it. I

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Speaker 2: feel like then you hear from your friends, right, oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: I didn't think it was.

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Speaker 3: Right for you.

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Speaker 2: Well where were you then? Why didn't you tell me?

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Speaker 2: But also probably wouldn't have listened if you told me. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so you have this barometer from your grandmother. With many people, she.

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Speaker 1: Had amazing advice. She was kind of towards the end

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Speaker 1: of her life. She was in her late nineties. God

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Speaker 1: bless her. She lived till she was ninety nine and

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Speaker 1: a half years old. But I was talking to her

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Speaker 1: one time and about do you want to She lived alone,

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Speaker 1: and I said, you know, would you like to go

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Speaker 1: live somewhere else? Do you want to be around people?

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Speaker 1: Do you want to go to wherever? And she said no,

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Speaker 1: I love my life. And I believe that if you

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Speaker 1: can't surround yourself with people that are equal or better

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Speaker 1: than you, they don't deserve your time or attention and

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Speaker 1: they shouldn't be in your life. And I have taken

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Speaker 1: that and made it a part of my life, my kids' lives,

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Speaker 1: and it is so true, whether you're looking for a friend,

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Speaker 1: a partner, a business partner, if that person is not

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Speaker 1: equal or better than you, if they're not challenging you,

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Speaker 1: as Lauren just said, adding to your life, giving to

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Speaker 1: you and loving as much as you are, don't add

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Speaker 1: them to your life. And I think equally, if you

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Speaker 1: dissect the life you're in now. If that's not happening,

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Speaker 1: then yeah, maybe you should look elsewhere.

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Speaker 3: I think we're telling people they should.

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Speaker 2: Well, and really that goes to respect also, right, do

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Speaker 2: you respect that person? Are you in awe of that person?

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Speaker 2: I mean, just like I'm saying, if somebody's lost respect

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Speaker 2: for you, if they're not respecting you and valuing you,

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Speaker 2: you got to get out of there. I noticed in

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Speaker 2: a relationship of mine in the past, I mentioned that

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Speaker 2: person being lazy and unmotivated over time, and I gave

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Speaker 2: it time, but I lost respect for him. And it

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Speaker 2: really is this super basic thing. I think sometimes I

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Speaker 2: don't know with all I do think sometimes in our

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Speaker 2: society we've lost a little bit of just these basic

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Speaker 2: things you need in a relationship because we're we really

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Speaker 2: embrace people being unique and all the things that make

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Speaker 2: you you. But at the end of the day, some

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Speaker 2: of the stuff is still really simple. Do you respect

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Speaker 2: that person, because if you don't, you'll actually become a

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Speaker 2: worse person. You'll start to walk all over them, You'll

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Speaker 2: become worse. I notice that in my relationship when we'd argue,

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Speaker 2: I look back at some of the things I said

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, that's not the person I wanted to be.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not blaming him, but yeah, he'd kind of

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Speaker 2: dragged me down with him a little bit. And I

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Speaker 2: the friend of mine who I counseled on getting out

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Speaker 2: of this marriage she was in. I did tell her,

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Speaker 2: you know, sometimes it's not your it's not on you.

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Speaker 2: It's not oh, everybody's at blame here, it's not two

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Speaker 2: to tango, it's not well we all. Sometimes that person

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Speaker 2: just really has a lot to work on about themselves.

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Speaker 2: And when you've tried and you can say to yourself, look,

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Speaker 2: I gave it my all here, walk away, because all

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Speaker 2: you're doing at that point is ruining your own precious

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Speaker 2: moments that we have on this earth. And it did

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Speaker 2: take her some time to get there, and I kind

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Speaker 2: of knew. I mean, I talked to her every day,

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Speaker 2: I called her a few times a week or we texted,

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Speaker 2: and I knew she would get there, and eventually she did.

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Speaker 3: And wow, once she turned that corner. She even told

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Speaker 3: me there was something that was.

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Speaker 2: The last straw, and she said, I feel like I

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Speaker 2: got to the top of the mountain and suddenly I

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Speaker 2: could see clearly and I was getting out of there.

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Speaker 1: It is hard to see the forest from the trees.

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Speaker 1: And I always call it the kind of the death spiral,

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Speaker 1: the toilet bowl, when you're just you're spinning. You're spinning around,

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Speaker 1: You're spinning around, no matter how hard you swim, You're

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Speaker 1: going down the toilet and there it is this act

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Speaker 1: you have to go through. I think we all feel

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Speaker 1: like you got to go through this where you want to,

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Speaker 1: you know, turn every stone up and make sure you're

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Speaker 1: doing the work, and you don't want to just give

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Speaker 1: up on it, because it's something once you know, you

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Speaker 1: put your pride in this, you put your heart in

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Speaker 1: this and your effort. But to go back to something

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Speaker 1: you said is very interesting if you have that respect.

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Speaker 1: Because we have another friends of ours, a couple, and

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Speaker 1: they were struggling. They'd been married for quite some time,

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Speaker 1: and they were struggling, and I thought, this may end

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Speaker 1: in divorce, a this may break them up. But what

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Speaker 1: was at the root of everything was they had respect

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Speaker 1: for each other. She was a great mom and she

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Speaker 1: was a good wife, and he was a good man

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Speaker 1: and a good husband, good father and all these things.

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Speaker 1: And so they just were in a rough patch. But

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Speaker 1: the base the foundation was there, and I think that

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Speaker 1: is something that you were dancing around. I think is

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Speaker 1: a good nail to hit on the head. Look at

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Speaker 1: your own relationship. Is the foundation? There is there something

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Speaker 1: to build on and build from. If not, you're not

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Speaker 1: going to go back and add a foundation to a house,

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Speaker 1: it's too late.

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Speaker 2: And you actually really counseled those friends and said, I

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Speaker 2: know and love you both as people, and I think

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Speaker 2: you should stay together. And they have said you really

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Speaker 2: help them through that patch and that your advice was

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Speaker 2: really valuable as somebody who'd been divorce yourself. And I

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Speaker 2: think that's important to note because with this podcast we

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Speaker 2: are not saying break up everybody and your relationship. One

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Speaker 2: piece of advice you told them was, look, guys, I

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Speaker 2: mean I'm taking your words here, but you said, I've

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Speaker 2: been out there, I've been dating in my forties. Now

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Speaker 2: I've seen it. It's not necessarily that the grass is greener.

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Speaker 2: You're not going to suddenly have this huge, incredible dating

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Speaker 2: pool open to you. So look, you will, you can

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Speaker 2: find love again.

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Speaker 3: But is this worth it? I mean, am I one.

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Speaker 1: Hundred percent No? And that's why I guess the flip

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Speaker 1: side of this coin is we're not. Yeah, this whole

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Speaker 1: playbook isn't about breaking you up, and it is looking

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Speaker 1: at it intelligently. Is there a foundation to save? Is

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Speaker 1: there respect and love there? Because just jumping from lily

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Speaker 1: pad to lily pad is not a great way to

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Speaker 1: live life either. The grass is not always greener when

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Speaker 1: you get back out there. And I think people have

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Speaker 1: that mentality sometimes of like, oh things are getting hard,

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Speaker 1: I'll jump And so I think that's what this whole

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Speaker 1: playbook was about, was when is it time? Because it

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Speaker 1: is hard, it's hard to like do I need to

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Speaker 1: put more work in? Or am I wasting time? And

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Speaker 1: so I think it's going back to that those foundational questions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And like I said, I've asked myself in the past,

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Speaker 2: have I done all I can do?

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Speaker 3: Here?

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Speaker 2: There's one actually one barometery thing. I mean, so far

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Speaker 2: we've had have you done all you can do? What

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Speaker 2: do you feel the person has completely lost respect for you?

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Speaker 2: Or have you completely lost the respect for the person?

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Speaker 2: Is the respect there between you two? Do you look

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Speaker 2: forward to spending time with them or do you dread it?

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Speaker 2: And there's one from the show, and it's a phrase

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Speaker 2: I have to admit I didn't really understand when she

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Speaker 2: was using it, and she used it a ton. Claire

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Speaker 2: Crawley on her season said I want someone who will

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Speaker 2: show up for me, Who will show up for me.

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Speaker 2: She said that over and over to the point of

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Speaker 2: I kind of teased her about it because I think

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Speaker 2: she used it so much that it lost its meaning.

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Speaker 3: And it was right. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But when I was talking to this friend the other day,

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Speaker 2: what happened was they were supposed to go on a

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Speaker 2: trip with friends and their guy. This woman's partner said

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Speaker 2: I'm not going. I think we're in a rough place

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Speaker 2: and I'm not going to go.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to go. We'll talk when you get back.

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Speaker 2: And I said, Babe, that's a the red flag is

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Speaker 2: waving in the wind for me on that one, because

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Speaker 2: that person is quite literally not showing up for you.

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Speaker 2: And there were moments I had in a relationship. The

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Speaker 2: guy I was dating was supposed to go to brunch

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Speaker 2: with my mom and some of her friends, and we

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Speaker 2: got in kind of an argument and he said I'm

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Speaker 2: not going. And I remember going to that brunch and

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Speaker 2: I was so embarrassed and having to make excuses for him,

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Speaker 2: and man, you do not want to be in a

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Speaker 2: relationship with someone where you have to make excuses. I

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Speaker 2: said to this current friend, Chris would never do that

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Speaker 2: to me. If we'd had an argument, you would never

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Speaker 2: say I'm not going to come. You would have showed

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Speaker 2: up and actually used it. I think as an opportunity

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Speaker 2: to say, hey, maybe we can go on this trip

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Speaker 2: together and it'll be good for us, or maybe it'll

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Speaker 2: really show us if we can make this work or not.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it'll be a telltale moment. But to just say

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Speaker 2: I'm backing out and to allow you to be embarrassed

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Speaker 2: to that group of people, that's a no for me.

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Speaker 3: To me, it's over because.

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Speaker 1: You're really rubbing someone's nose in it. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: nine times out of ten, when you're on the drive

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Speaker 1: over or you're whatever, you look at each other and

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Speaker 1: you realize how silly it was that you were arguing,

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Speaker 1: and you realize how much you love that person, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was like it only exacerbates that moment. And you're right,

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Speaker 1: Claire did say that a lot. I've heard it.

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Speaker 3: In this case. He was quite literally not showing up.

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Speaker 2: This guy and he's not here, he's absent, he has

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Speaker 2: not attended the event and him not showing up to me.

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Speaker 2: What that indicates is I don't want to try to

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Speaker 2: work on this. I'm willing to let you go. I'm

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Speaker 2: willing to put this on pause and risk losing you.

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Speaker 2: I'm willing to say, hey, you know, for all he knows,

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Speaker 2: this woman is incredible. She's beautiful and smart and fun.

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Speaker 2: She could have had so many new flirting with her

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Speaker 2: in the week she was gone, and hey, then you

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Speaker 2: lost her, buddy snooze, you lose well.

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Speaker 1: As we wrap up this playbook, I hope this is

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Speaker 1: you look and I think you should always take stock

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Speaker 1: of your relationship when it's good, when it's bad, when

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Speaker 1: it's great. What do you what's great about it? Because

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Speaker 1: you need to remember those things too, What made you happy,

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Speaker 1: what makes you happy? What drives you? Why you know?

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Speaker 1: How is he or she showing up for you? What

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Speaker 1: do they bring to the table? And then when you

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Speaker 1: fall on hard times, you can remember those things. You

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Speaker 1: can talk about those things, yes, and even bring them

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Speaker 1: back up.

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Speaker 2: We're all human, we all make mistakes, and we're all

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Speaker 2: going to falter. But to me, it's all about how

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Speaker 2: a person comes out of those mistakes. Are they trying

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Speaker 2: for you? Are they putting in that effort? And that

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Speaker 2: is something you constantly work on. You and I laugh

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Speaker 2: about in our jobs. In our business, we renegotiate contracts

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Speaker 2: every couple of years, and we've often said, why is

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Speaker 2: that not a situation for relationships?

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Speaker 1: Every five years you should have to go renegotiate your contract.

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Speaker 1: Is this in a relationship? Is this still working? Are

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Speaker 1: we still where we should be? That's when we become

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Speaker 1: King and Queen's That's what we're going to add. But

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Speaker 1: thank you for joining us today's playbook. We love chatting

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Speaker 1: and bringing up all these topics. If you have something

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Speaker 1: you want Lauren and I to dive into, reach out

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Speaker 1: to us. You can always find us at the Most

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Speaker 1: Dramatic Pod Ever, at Lauren Zeema and at Chris P. Harrison.

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Speaker 1: Thanks as always, and we'll talk to you next time

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Speaker 1: because we have a lot more to talk about. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening. Follow us on Instagram at the Most Dramatic

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Speaker 1: Pod Ever and make sure to write us a review

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Speaker 1: and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you next time.