Speaker 1: Before we get into this episode, I have some breaking
Speaker 1: news to share with you. Rodney Reid has been granted
Speaker 1: a stay of execution, and I want to thank every
Speaker 1: one of you who took action, who signed a petition,
Speaker 1: who made phone calls, who wrote letters. Your actions matter,
Speaker 1: and this is a good day. At least we have
Speaker 1: a chance now to reopen this case and prove his
Speaker 1: actual innocence once and for all. The year was nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety six. Stacy Steitz and police officer Jimmy Fanell were
Speaker 1: engaged to be married, but Stacy was having an affair
Speaker 1: with a man named Rodney Reid. On April twenty third,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six, Stacy's body was discovered strangled on the
Speaker 1: side of a dirt road near Bastrip, Texas. Her fiancee,
Speaker 1: Jimmy Fanell, was a prime suspect until three of Rodney
Speaker 1: Reid's intact bermitdazoua were found inside her body. During trial,
Speaker 1: the state alleged that Rodney intercepted miss Style on her
Speaker 1: three am drive to work and proceeded to rape and
Speaker 1: murder her, with no other physical evidence of Rodney in
Speaker 1: the car or at the scene. The forensic science of
Speaker 1: the time, incorrectly asserting that intact spermadzzoa could not survive
Speaker 1: past twenty four hours, and Stacy's whereabouts being known within
Speaker 1: the twenty four hours prior to her death. Rodney Reid
Speaker 1: was sentenced to death in nineteen ninety eight. It is
Speaker 1: now common knowledge that intact spermaizoa can be found at
Speaker 1: least seventy two hours after release, and all of the
Speaker 1: state's forensic expert witnesses have since disavowed their testimonies. Reid
Speaker 1: continues to maintain that the spermadizoa that the investigation discovered
Speaker 1: was the result of consensual intercourse that transpired well over
Speaker 1: twenty four hours prior to her death. On this episode
Speaker 1: of Wroeful Conviction with Jason Flahm, we go to death
Speaker 1: Row to speak with Rodney Reid. Will also speak with
Speaker 1: his attorney Bryce Benjett, his brother Roderick Reid, doctor Phil
Speaker 1: and the world renowned forensic expert doctor Michael Bowden. Will
Speaker 1: retell his compelling sworn testimony that rules out Rodney as
Speaker 1: the potential perpetrator and disputes the time of death.
Speaker 2: This is wrongful conviction.
Speaker 1: Senior staff attorney for the Innison's project in Rodney's legal council,
Speaker 1: Bryce Benjett came by to tell us about Rodney's case,
Speaker 1: and we know that on April twenty third, nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 1: Stacy Stites was found strangled and killed in Bastro of Texas.
Speaker 1: She was last seen, of course, with their fiance, Jimmy Fanel,
Speaker 1: and the search for Stacy started when she failed to
Speaker 1: report for her three thirty am shift at the grocery
Speaker 1: store where she worked. Jimmy's truck, of course, which he
Speaker 1: testified that she used to drive herself to work that morning,
Speaker 1: was found in a high school parking lot at five
Speaker 1: twenty three am, and Stacy's body was discovered later that
Speaker 1: afternoon that same day, lying face up near an unpaved road.
Speaker 1: So the state argued that Roddy didn't know her, but
Speaker 1: rather that he intercepted her on her way to work,
Speaker 1: gained entry somehow to her truck, sexually assaulted and strangled her,
Speaker 1: and transported her to the remote unpaved road where her
Speaker 1: body was discovered. All the while and this is key
Speaker 1: not leaving any other evidence behind other than the sperm
Speaker 1: in her body. And this theory was built importantly on
Speaker 1: three pillars, the three sperms of the zoa that were
Speaker 1: found right, the testimony for three forensic experts who maintained
Speaker 1: that sperm does not stay intact for longer than twenty
Speaker 1: four hours after intercourse, which of course we know that
Speaker 1: it does, and that Stit's whereabouts were accounted for most
Speaker 1: of the day before she was murdered, thereby ruling out
Speaker 1: the consensual sex with Reed as an explanation for the
Speaker 1: presence of his sperm. And of course the testimony from
Speaker 1: Jimmy Fanell who said that she left at three am
Speaker 1: for work in his truck. But take us back and
Speaker 1: explain some of these circumstances and how the state developed
Speaker 1: this narrative that we now know not only isn't true,
Speaker 1: but couldn't possibly be true.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting because when you go back and you
Speaker 3: look at how crimes ought to be investigated, there were
Speaker 3: many sort of obvious errors that were done. Initially, Nobody
Speaker 3: looked at the apartment that Stacey Stite shared with Jimmy Fanell,
Speaker 3: even though that was the last place she was seeing.
Speaker 4: That is sort of police work.
Speaker 5: One oh one.
Speaker 3: There were not adequate notes taken of interviews of Jimmy Fanell,
Speaker 3: who was later the key source of the timeline of
Speaker 3: the state's case. But as the investigation actually progressed, Jimmy
Speaker 3: Fanell soon emerged as the prime suspect in the case
Speaker 3: and was investigated. He was aggressively interrogated, he was subjected
Speaker 3: to polygraphs she failed, which he failed. And this took
Speaker 3: place even after the police knew that it was not
Speaker 3: his semen that was collected from Stacy's body, and so
Speaker 3: the notion that the person who semen is in that
Speaker 3: body must be a rapist and a murderer was not
Speaker 3: the operating theory of the investigation until they matched that
Speaker 3: semen to Rodney, a person of color. And so there
Speaker 3: is where you have an investigation of the person who
Speaker 3: looks like he had opportunity, motive, had a record consistent
Speaker 3: with this kind of behavior. And as soon as Rodney
Speaker 3: was identified as the source of that seamen, this suddenly
Speaker 3: turned around to a sexual assault murder that had to
Speaker 3: be committed by him.
Speaker 1: So now Rodney becomes the suspect. The state argued that
Speaker 1: Rodney didn't know the victim. He did, in fact, he
Speaker 1: was having a relationship, and we now have numerous witnesses
Speaker 1: that have come forth who had no connection to Rodney, right,
Speaker 1: not just the ones that did have a connection to Rodney.
Speaker 1: His relatives knew he was seeing her, but now others
Speaker 1: strangers to him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this was a big issue at the trial.
Speaker 3: Just to back up, I mean this rile was rushed
Speaker 3: to say at the best. At the trial, the defense
Speaker 3: lawyers were presenting what Rodney had told him, which he
Speaker 3: could back up with witnesses. He said, I was seeing Stacy.
Speaker 3: It was an occasional thing. It was casual. We were
Speaker 3: with each other the night before her death, So not
Speaker 3: the night of April twenty second, twenty third, but the
Speaker 3: night of April twenty first, twenty second. So that was
Speaker 3: the theory that was presented at the trial. But unfortunately,
Speaker 3: the defense lawyers did not do the work or have
Speaker 3: the time to do the work to actually present that
Speaker 3: evidence to the jury. Even what little evidence that Rodney's
Speaker 3: defense lawyers were able to present about this relationship about
Speaker 3: the explanation was completely negated by the prosecution's experts, who
Speaker 3: said that it was impossible for Rodney's seeming to be
Speaker 3: there based on consensual sex because of this twenty four
Speaker 3: hour timeframe.
Speaker 1: At that point right, any jury is going to go well,
Speaker 1: that's I mean, you can't explain.
Speaker 4: That a way.
Speaker 3: And it was clearly important to the jury because they
Speaker 3: asked about it during their deliberations, and the judge actually
Speaker 3: read that invalid testimony back to them while they were
Speaker 3: deciding whether or not to convict Rodney Reid.
Speaker 1: But now we know from the top experts in the field,
Speaker 1: including doctor Baden, that in fact, the actual amount of
Speaker 1: time that the spermatozoa can survive or that can be detected,
Speaker 1: I guess up to seventy two hours.
Speaker 3: And all you need to do is open a forensic
Speaker 3: pathology textbook.
Speaker 1: Wow, and they don't need an expert.
Speaker 3: And so we've gone back now to the States Forensic Pathologist,
Speaker 3: the person who did the autopsy, who has disclaimed the
Speaker 3: testimony that was offered at the trial. We've gone back
Speaker 3: to the Texas Department of Public Safety, who has clarified
Speaker 3: that although their analysts said twenty four hours, the science
Speaker 3: says seventy two. And we've gone back to the private
Speaker 3: DNA lab, who their expert also testified about this twenty
Speaker 3: four hour timeframe, and that private DNA lab has likewise
Speaker 3: recanted that opinion said it was in error, and so
Speaker 3: the foundation of the state's case, which completely negated Rodney's
Speaker 3: ability to defend himself, is gone, and then in its place,
Speaker 3: We've consulted with the leading forensic pathologists in the country,
Speaker 3: Michael boden, Werner, spitz Leroy Riddick, and uniformly they have
Speaker 3: said that when you look at this body, she had
Speaker 3: been killed hours before the state alleged that she was killed,
Speaker 3: which is a time that she, according to Jimmy Finnell,
Speaker 3: was at home with him in her apartment.
Speaker 1: My production crew and I flew to Houston, Texas, drove
Speaker 1: about an hour outside the city to the Polunsky Unit
Speaker 1: where Texas Department of Criminal Justice houses death row inmates.
Speaker 1: We were instructed to leave everything but are inspected and approved.
Speaker 1: Production equipment in the car, went through security, and finally
Speaker 1: reached Rodney Reid for our non contact interview through bulletproof
Speaker 1: plexiglass on death row. Right, good afternoon, How are you doing.
Speaker 1: I'm doing okay. I mean my heart is heavy, obviously,
Speaker 1: but I want to talk about you. Thank you for
Speaker 1: talking with me. First of all, how are you doing now?
Speaker 1: I mean, you've been through this before, you had an
Speaker 1: execution day in twenty fifteen, so this is the second
Speaker 1: time around.
Speaker 6: Yes, well as well as to be expected. I mean,
Speaker 6: you know, I have my days, but I'm good.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 6: With meditation, reading, I tried to stay up on current events.
Speaker 6: I tried to distract myself from what's going on, you know,
Speaker 6: with other things. You know, it's for stimulating my mind.
Speaker 6: I'll read magazine, read newspapers. I really like reading the
Speaker 6: comments with my sporters. You know, they have comments that
Speaker 6: that I'll read. They're inspiring to me.
Speaker 1: Well, you're inspiring to them. I mean they're writing to
Speaker 1: the Governor's signing petitions that I'm putting out that this
Speaker 1: is project is putting out and it's extraordinary, and it's
Speaker 1: somewhat encouraging to see that, you know, and I think
Speaker 1: it's going to make a difference, hope. So and so
Speaker 1: I want to go back, if it's okay with you,
Speaker 1: back to nineteen ninety six. You're a young man, good
Speaker 1: looking guy when I was a young man. Yeah, you're
Speaker 1: still a good looking guy, but you're a young guy
Speaker 1: and you meet this woman, Stacy Stye. Is a romantic situation.
Speaker 1: We know it was a consensual situation. You met her
Speaker 1: at a.
Speaker 6: Doamind Shamrock was a it was a convenience store, gas station,
Speaker 6: life type, but they had a game room and all that.
Speaker 7: And was it love and first sight? Was it like
Speaker 7: a lightning bolt hit you or I. I wouldn't say
Speaker 7: it like that, you know.
Speaker 6: I was just there. We were just hanging out. I'm
Speaker 6: at a jukebox selecting songs and she walks in, you know,
Speaker 6: And I wouldn't say it was no love at first sight,
Speaker 6: you know, because we ended up playing pool, you know,
Speaker 6: striking up conversation and it was just good.
Speaker 1: And then sometime after that, obviously there was chemistry there
Speaker 1: and you started seeing each other.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, discreet, you know.
Speaker 1: And then at some point she started seeing Jimmy finell.
Speaker 6: No, she was already seeing him, you know. I was
Speaker 6: already seeing someone else.
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 6: That's what's part of the reason why we kind of
Speaker 6: kept it discreet.
Speaker 1: Did you think you were in love with her or
Speaker 1: was it more just just young people having fun?
Speaker 6: We were having fun. There was chemistry there, but I
Speaker 6: wouldn't I wouldn't say that I was in love with
Speaker 6: her because I think if I would have been in
Speaker 6: love with her, I had to cut everything else off,
Speaker 6: you know, And I don't really think that she was
Speaker 6: in love with me, because she would have been the
Speaker 6: same way. She would cut everything off on that end.
Speaker 1: You know, how long had you been seeing Stacy when
Speaker 1: when she was murdered.
Speaker 6: That I met her in late October, early in November
Speaker 6: of ninety five. Her death was in April, so I
Speaker 6: will table.
Speaker 7: Six months, six six months? And how did you find
Speaker 7: out about on the news?
Speaker 6: Yeah? Yeah, when I heard it on the news, and
Speaker 6: a talented athlete, I didn't want to believe it. This
Speaker 6: is not the Stacy soul. Yeah I was. I was.
Speaker 6: I was quite shocked her upcoming wedding when they when
Speaker 6: they flashed her picture. I didn't want to believe it
Speaker 6: because I was just with her. I didn't want to
Speaker 6: believe it.
Speaker 1: You were just with her, like.
Speaker 6: Late night Sunday, early morning Monday, and she was murdered
Speaker 6: on a Tuesday, the twenty third. All I can do
Speaker 6: is tell you that I mentioned I had nothing to
Speaker 6: do with that three sperms. I was with her the
Speaker 6: night before. I mean, you learn that sim biology that
Speaker 6: in a pinhead dropped you looking at millions. That's just
Speaker 6: just a pinhead drop. I mean for the states on
Speaker 6: experts to come back in recan't you know.
Speaker 1: All three of them? And then we know that Jimmy
Speaker 1: was the original suspect. We know they kind of circled
Speaker 1: up the wagons and you know, protected him or he
Speaker 1: failed two polygraphs. We know all the fact that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: what would you most want people to know about the
Speaker 1: evidence if you were to say it's to a stranger
Speaker 1: or somebody who's watching this right now, but well, I
Speaker 1: don't know he's in there.
Speaker 6: It must be something that well the time of death.
Speaker 1: Doctor Michael Boden is about as decorated a forensic expert
Speaker 1: as you can get, including having served as chairman of
Speaker 1: the Forensic Pathology Panel for the House Select Committee on Assassinations,
Speaker 1: investigating the assassinations of none less than President John F.
Speaker 1: Kennedy and Martin Luther King Junior. He studied the evidence
Speaker 1: Stacey Stitke's murder case and gave testimony at a hearing
Speaker 1: back on October eleventh, twenty seventeen, when Rodney was seeking
Speaker 1: a new trial.
Speaker 4: I think that my opinion is solid in this matter
Speaker 4: and disagrees with the prosecutor's opinion.
Speaker 1: It disagrees on almost every important point that the prosecution
Speaker 1: used to convict Rodney.
Speaker 4: Well, it disagrees on the time of death, the place
Speaker 4: of death, and whether or not a sexual assault that occurred.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, those are pretty much it. And then there's
Speaker 1: the issue of vividity, which plays into all of these things.
Speaker 4: Lividity is a measure of time of death. When we die,
Speaker 4: certain processes in our bodies stop. The heart stops functioning,
Speaker 4: blood stops moving around, and the blood itself. Similar to
Speaker 4: when you give blood at a blood bank, the blood is
Speaker 4: about forty five percent solid material red cells, white cells
Speaker 4: and platelets and plasma on top of the yellow tinged
Speaker 4: clear fluid. From the time of our birth to time
Speaker 4: we die. The heart not only pumps blood around but
Speaker 4: also churns it up. So when blood comes out, one
Speaker 4: sees red blood. You don't see the separation when blood
Speaker 4: goes into a bag and a blood bank. After a
Speaker 4: few minutes, one sees the solid material settling down, so
Speaker 4: you have all the red cells and the majority of
Speaker 4: the slaw material coming to the bottom forty percent of
Speaker 4: the volume. That's what happens after death. After we die,
Speaker 4: the blood, instead of being well churned up starts settling
Speaker 4: out with the red blood cells, white blood cells, and
Speaker 4: platelets settling to the bottom gravity by gravity, So whatever
Speaker 4: part of the body is downward against the ground will
Speaker 4: get a bluish purple color of the settled red blood cells.
Speaker 4: That's called lividity.
Speaker 1: And why is this so important in the case of
Speaker 1: stacy states.
Speaker 4: Because it tells two things to the medical examine the
Speaker 4: kirner coming to the scene. The first thing we look
Speaker 4: for always is did the person die here or was
Speaker 4: the body moved after death? Just an automatic initial impression.
Speaker 4: When we see inappropriate liviidity that is lying on the
Speaker 4: back as occurrent here, but the discoloration is in the front,
Speaker 4: it means that individual, the decessent here was laying face
Speaker 4: down for at least four or five hours for the
Speaker 4: blood to settle, causing the bluish discoloration of libidity. She
Speaker 4: could not have died in that position. If she had
Speaker 4: died in that position, all the libidity would be near
Speaker 4: the ground. And that's a certainty, that's a certain ring.
Speaker 4: This is a change in the body that happens to
Speaker 4: everybody after death. But just the laws of gravity. But
Speaker 4: for the liviidity to settle and not turn. If a
Speaker 4: body is moved within an hour after death, it's like
Speaker 4: when the snow glow, that you let the snow settle
Speaker 4: the bottom and you turn it over and it settles
Speaker 4: in the other direction. If in an hour or two
Speaker 4: one turns the body over, then all the blood goes
Speaker 4: in the other direction. But after four or five hours,
Speaker 4: the lividity becomes fixed because the red blood cells started
Speaker 4: going out of the blood vessels and well, so that
Speaker 4: if you turn it over after four or five hours,
Speaker 4: the inappropriate lividity will remain and won't disappear. So in
Speaker 4: order for us to see the lividity on the front,
Speaker 4: not only was she laying face down, but she was
Speaker 4: laying face down in the circumstances at least four or
Speaker 4: five hours, So we could tell from that that she
Speaker 4: was moved from a place that she was laying face down,
Speaker 4: and that she had to be in one position for
Speaker 4: at least four or five hours before she was moved.
Speaker 4: Another thing that happens when we die is that the
Speaker 4: tissues start to decompose because it's not getting the usual
Speaker 4: oxygen supply. So the first tissues that decompose are the
Speaker 4: lining cells of the mouth, the nose, and also the
Speaker 4: intestine track. They just start dying in the nose and mouth.
Speaker 4: The dying tissues mix up with whatever fluids are present
Speaker 4: and a thick maroon type discharge will occur. She had
Speaker 4: to be laying face forward and nose of mouth free
Speaker 4: for fluids to leak out, and this would happen in
Speaker 4: a car. The purge fluids were in the passenger side
Speaker 4: and that would be coming out of her nose and mouth,
Speaker 4: and the libidity would be developing to some extent on
Speaker 4: the fact that she's leaning forward. In this case, since
Speaker 4: the prosecution argument is that the defendant met her at
Speaker 4: three am and she died after three am, laying in
Speaker 4: one position for at least four or five hours until
Speaker 4: eight am, and there's evidence that she was dead in
Speaker 4: the car before five point thirty because in the car
Speaker 4: one has purge fluids, so she's dead for at least
Speaker 4: four hours before she's taken out of the car.
Speaker 1: And of course we know that the car was found
Speaker 1: at five twenty three am, so it actually is not possible.
Speaker 1: This scenario cannot have happened. You can't have five hours
Speaker 1: and two hours, that's right.
Speaker 4: The lividity and the purge fluids of the car would
Speaker 4: establish that she was dead laying face down closer to midnight,
Speaker 4: but definitely before three o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 1: The fiance, Jimmy Fanel, and his own words under oath
Speaker 1: a trial. He stated that he was home with her
Speaker 1: from eight pm the night before until she left for
Speaker 1: work around three in the morning the next day. And
Speaker 1: I think you've made it very clear that it is
Speaker 1: your expert opinion, to a degree of a very high
Speaker 1: degree of certainty, that that was the time that she
Speaker 1: was murdered.
Speaker 4: It is my opinion that she was murdered and strangled
Speaker 4: well before three am, closer to midnight, and that mister
Speaker 4: Fanel was there. Maybe somebody else came in and did it.
Speaker 4: I can't say that he did it, except that he
Speaker 4: was the only one there.
Speaker 1: How certain are you that Rodney could not have committed
Speaker 1: this crime?
Speaker 4: I am certain beyond all reasonable doubts that she was
Speaker 4: dead before she could possibly have met with Rodney, that
Speaker 4: he could not possibly have strangled Stacy after three o'clock
Speaker 4: in the morning. Two reasonable certainty, maybe after ninety eight
Speaker 4: ninety nine percent. That as far as any testimony in
Speaker 4: any trial in the standards used, he could not have.
Speaker 2: Committed the crime.
Speaker 1: If this execution goes forward, how are you going to
Speaker 1: process that information?
Speaker 4: It would be terrible. Number ways. Number One, there are
Speaker 4: people when executed who turn out to be innocent. Clearly,
Speaker 4: even if he's exonerated, it's horrible that he's been in
Speaker 4: prison for so long, during which time, whoever the real murderer,
Speaker 4: is free to go about harming other people.
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the fact that this officer
Speaker 1: had a very troubling history of this conduct, and that,
Speaker 1: in fact, sometime after Rodney's arrest and conviction, Jimmy himself
Speaker 1: was arrested and convicted.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think we need to go back and
Speaker 3: just look at who Jimmy Fanel was at the time
Speaker 3: and who he continues to be. Even before the time
Speaker 3: of the murder, there were some that things weren't.
Speaker 2: Right with Jimmy.
Speaker 3: In February of nineteen ninety six, so this is two
Speaker 3: months a little more before the murder, There's an incident
Speaker 3: in which he chases down a young Hispanic man in
Speaker 3: the small town that he's a patrol officer.
Speaker 5: He's alleged to.
Speaker 3: Have beat him and put a gun to this kid's head.
Speaker 3: He was sued for that, alleging police misconduct and police brutality.
Speaker 3: That suit was settled, so he had a record of misconduct.
Speaker 3: And that's just not even the half of it. Just
Speaker 3: looking from the time around the murder, a woman that
Speaker 3: Jimmy Fanell was dating in Gettings described him as emotionally abusive, possessive,
Speaker 3: virulently racist, and when she broke off with him the relationship,
Speaker 3: he stalked her. You know, I remember one day, you know,
Speaker 3: open up the newspaper and reading about Fanel's rest for
Speaker 3: a alleged sexual assault while on patrol, and he ultimately
Speaker 3: pled guilty to related charges that arose from an incident
Speaker 3: in which he was called out to assist a young
Speaker 3: woman and instead of helping her, drove her out, kidnapped her,
Speaker 3: raped her, and then dropped her back off in the
Speaker 3: situation that he was supposed to protect her from. She
Speaker 3: with just incredible bravery, calls nine one and reports it.
Speaker 3: And what happens. Jimmy Finel comes back out, intercepts her,
Speaker 3: arrests her, and thankfully of the police ultimately took this
Speaker 3: seriously and Finel was prosecuted. I convicted and convicted, pled
Speaker 3: guilty to charges, served essentially every day of a ten
Speaker 3: year sentence.
Speaker 6: He was quote unquote one of the state's finest a
Speaker 6: police officer, you know, and these things happen. You know,
Speaker 6: you have police killings here, killing innocent people, you know,
Speaker 6: unarmed people, and the first thing they say, they was
Speaker 6: in fear for their lives. But then here you have
Speaker 6: this police officers that's wasn't in fear for his life,
Speaker 6: didn't give a damn about life, and up until the
Speaker 6: time he got convicted of the crime he just got
Speaker 6: released from I feel like the state enabled him that.
Speaker 6: I mean, they should have been keeping an eye on it.
Speaker 1: When did you learn about Jimmy being arrested and charged
Speaker 1: with kidnapping and rape, which happened about ten years after
Speaker 1: you were convicted.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was on TV. No. I was listening to
Speaker 6: the radio. We don't have television here, you know. I
Speaker 6: listened to it hour on the hour, you know, and
Speaker 6: just so happened. I was and I heard them talking
Speaker 6: about an officer being arrested for sexual assault and Williamson County,
Speaker 6: and it was getting closing club and then when they
Speaker 6: said Jimmy Fanel, I tried to kick the door off
Speaker 6: the hinges. I was like, I was elated, you know,
Speaker 6: I was kind of amped up.
Speaker 1: Really, did you think they were victim?
Speaker 6: Yeah? It wasn't until later on to my attorneys within
Speaker 6: this project really started digging into that and pulling up
Speaker 6: the information, and I was like, well, okay, he's charged
Speaker 6: with this. But then they found out that he was
Speaker 6: under investigation in it. They found out about these other
Speaker 6: cases that he had been charged with that his fellow
Speaker 6: officers pushed on this rug for him. You know, I
Speaker 6: was like, there's no way this can't be happening. So
Speaker 6: even the law enforcement, the agency that he worked for,
Speaker 6: was protecting him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, in your case, we know that it was his
Speaker 1: best friend on the forest who was one of the
Speaker 1: lead investigators.
Speaker 3: When you look at the police investigation, this was not
Speaker 3: a one offense. Police reports indicate that he had credible
Speaker 3: alligation of raping at least one other woman in his
Speaker 3: custody and a pattern of abuse and sexual misconduct that
Speaker 3: went back years. One of the police reports talking about
Speaker 3: the rape allegations, where he was on patrol, he rapes
Speaker 3: a woman and then gives her his card, saying, you
Speaker 3: know you want to go on on another date. And
Speaker 3: so this is not somebody who's at least the evidence
Speaker 3: shows is tied to reality and somebody that we should
Speaker 3: be concerned about.
Speaker 1: I read somewhere that Officer Fanel, then Officer Fanell, had
Speaker 1: been overheard by a fellow officer bragging or exclaiming that
Speaker 1: if he ever found Stacy cheating on him, he would
Speaker 1: strangle her with a belt.
Speaker 4: Is that true?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So he was in a police training class. He
Speaker 3: was a rookie cop when all this went down, and
Speaker 3: a classmate of his was sort of in some sort
Speaker 3: of an argument with him, and he said, well, you know,
Speaker 3: if I ever catch my girlfriend cheating on me, me
Speaker 3: I kill her. And she made some response about how
Speaker 3: he would be you know, identified or something. He said, no,
Speaker 3: they'll never get my fingerprints. I'll strangler with a belt,
Speaker 3: which you know, obviously, where you have Stacy strangled with
Speaker 3: a belt is just, you know, hard to understand. But
Speaker 3: then you got to put that in the context of
Speaker 3: everything that the police reports indicated about Jimmy and everything
Speaker 3: we subsequently know. When he talked to the police about
Speaker 3: this case early on, his statement was riddled with inconsistencies.
Speaker 3: The morning she disappeared, but before her body was found,
Speaker 3: took out all the money in his bank account.
Speaker 1: Then the fact that two eyewitnesses have recently come forward
Speaker 1: and submitted signed affid David's, an insurance salesperson who said
Speaker 1: that Vanell threatened to kill Stacy while a playing for
Speaker 1: life insurance, a deputy in the Lee County Sheriff's office
Speaker 1: at the time of the murder, who Finel made an
Speaker 1: incriminating statement to at Stacy's funeral, and Finelle's best friend
Speaker 1: at the time of the murder, Bastrip Sheriff's Deputy Curtis Davis,
Speaker 1: has now revealed that Fanell gave an inconsistent account of
Speaker 1: where he was on the night of the murder. He
Speaker 1: claimed to Officer Davis that he was out late drinking,
Speaker 1: and he later testified a triality spent a quiet evening
Speaker 1: at home with Stites at their apartment during what we
Speaker 1: now know to be the time of her death, based
Speaker 1: on no less than doctor Michael Bodden's testimony. When asked
Speaker 1: to explain this discrepancy, Fanell invoked his Fifth Amendment rights,
Speaker 1: declining to testify to avoid possible self incrimination. So all
Speaker 1: of this adds up to a mountain of shit. Also,
Speaker 1: the breaking news is that there's a confession right that
Speaker 1: someone who was in prison with him has now come
Speaker 1: forward and signed to that of David saying that Jimmy
Speaker 1: confessed to this fellow that he was in prison with
Speaker 1: that he had actually strangled her. Many of you know
Speaker 1: doctor Phil for his accomplishments his legendary career in TV
Speaker 1: and entertainment, But what you may not know is that
Speaker 1: he was the founder of Courtroom Sciences, the first organization
Speaker 1: that made a science out of jury selection and other
Speaker 1: courtroom practices that lead to the type of outcomes that
Speaker 1: we all want, which is the right person getting convicted.
Speaker 1: You have made a very conscious decision to use your
Speaker 1: personal capital, your name value, your own financial resources, and
Speaker 1: most of all, your time to fly around the country
Speaker 1: to spend hours and hours helping someone who a few
Speaker 1: weeks ago was a total stranger to you. What's going
Speaker 1: on here? Why are you so passionately devoted to trying
Speaker 1: to save Rodney Reid's life? Don't and that's not hyperbole.
Speaker 8: Well, I went down and spoke to the man, and
Speaker 8: I did not go in there presuming he was innocent
Speaker 8: or guilty. I went down to talk to him, and
Speaker 8: I looked the man in the eye and ask him
Speaker 8: a lot of in depth questions, ask him some questions
Speaker 8: that there were right or wrong answers to in terms
Speaker 8: of whether he was telling the truth or not. I
Speaker 8: came away feeling like he was definitely a man of
Speaker 8: integrity and was clearly being victimized here. And I really
Speaker 8: tried to be empathetic and thought, if I was in
Speaker 8: that situation, or one of my sons, which I have two,
Speaker 8: we're in that situation, what would I hope and pray
Speaker 8: someone would do. And so I came back and really
Speaker 8: dove into the science and the evidence here, and I
Speaker 8: was appalled at what I found. This man has not
Speaker 8: had due process. I mean, he's not had a fair
Speaker 8: trial yet, and they've taken twenty two and a half
Speaker 8: years of this man's life. And who knows what he
Speaker 8: would have done in those twenty two years. You know,
Speaker 8: maybe he would have saved some people's lives. Maybe he
Speaker 8: would have gone to a wrack. Maybe he would have
Speaker 8: been a paramedic and save lives. Maybe he would have
Speaker 8: been a thief and gotten shot. You don't know what
Speaker 8: somebody would have done. But he had the right to
Speaker 8: find out. He had the right to make those choices
Speaker 8: and know and that was taken from him. And I, frankly,
Speaker 8: don't think this was a close call. I don't you
Speaker 8: know whether he did it or didn't do it. I
Speaker 8: don't think it was a close call. And if you
Speaker 8: watch the two hours that we devoted this on the air,
Speaker 8: I brought on the defense lawyer or her fiance. I
Speaker 8: brought him on, and I gave him a platform to
Speaker 8: speak from. I spoke to him after the show, away
Speaker 8: from the cameras, and he does believe Rodney Red is guilty.
Speaker 8: And I let him speak, and he said every reason
Speaker 8: that he thought I gave people. I did not bury
Speaker 8: the negatives. I looked at both sides of this, and
Speaker 8: then I looked at the science and it was very
Speaker 8: clear to me he couldn't have done this. Even if
Speaker 8: he was the kind of character that would have done this,
Speaker 8: he couldn't have done this. And I don't believe he's
Speaker 8: the kind of character that would have done this. I
Speaker 8: didn't know him at the time, but I know him
Speaker 8: now and I believe he is a good man that
Speaker 8: would be a good addition to this world and this community,
Speaker 8: and I just felt like, you know, I can't look
Speaker 8: this man in the eye know what I know in
Speaker 8: my heart from the training that I have, and go
Speaker 8: home and go to dinner. How do you do that?
Speaker 8: How do you know what you know and don't do
Speaker 8: something about it.
Speaker 1: You can't unknow it, that's for sure.
Speaker 8: First, they cited some DNA evidence. They said there was
Speaker 8: Rodney sperm found inside her body, and to me, that's
Speaker 8: a lie biomission because supposedly a rape took place at
Speaker 8: three am the morning.
Speaker 2: That she died.
Speaker 8: Now, they found her body at approximately three in the afternoon,
Speaker 8: about twelve hours later. At that time, had he raped her,
Speaker 8: there would have been million of spermtozoa still viable inside
Speaker 8: her body. There were three sperm heads, which means they
Speaker 8: had deteriorated to the point that the bodies had fallen
Speaker 8: off the heads, and there were the three little microscopic
Speaker 8: heads in there. So that's about, you know, anywhere between
Speaker 8: three and ten million off of the count of what
Speaker 8: it would be if he had had sex with her
Speaker 8: at the time that she was supposedly raped and killed.
Speaker 8: But they had been seeing each other and he said
Speaker 8: he had sex with her before and was that relationship
Speaker 8: real or did he just make that up? Well, people
Speaker 8: he knows knew about it. People she knows knew about it.
Speaker 8: People that he didn't know knew about it. So people
Speaker 8: from both of their lives, they lived in two different worlds,
Speaker 8: and people in both worlds that didn't know each other
Speaker 8: both knew about their relationship. So the fact that they
Speaker 8: had a relationship to me is confirmed by people who
Speaker 8: don't know each other telling the same story. That explains
Speaker 8: to me the sperm in her body. Then when they
Speaker 8: found her body, the science of deterioration, lividity, the deterioration
Speaker 8: of the skin, what they found in the truck, in
Speaker 8: terms of bodily fluids that had come up, all the
Speaker 8: things that you know were on a timeline from death
Speaker 8: just simply didn't match. That she had been dead for
Speaker 8: twelve hours when they found the body. It suggested she
Speaker 8: had been dead a whole lot longer than that, And
Speaker 8: she wasn't with Rodney during those earlier hours. She was
Speaker 8: with someone else that is not contested. So if she
Speaker 8: was killed hours before they say she was killed, which
Speaker 8: the science says is true, he didn't do it. He
Speaker 8: wasn't with her nobody says he was with her, then
Speaker 8: she was with somebody else, and that is uncontested. There
Speaker 8: were no fingerprints in the truck. They didn't test for DNA.
Speaker 8: Of course we now can test for contact DNA et cetera,
Speaker 8: et cetera. But they didn't find any evidence of him
Speaker 8: being in that truck whatsoever. And there's just no evidence
Speaker 8: that connects him with that crime. And there is evidence
Speaker 8: that connects other people to that crime. So if you
Speaker 8: believe these world class worldWe experts that have done thousands
Speaker 8: and thousands of autopsies, they say it's not possible that
Speaker 8: he did it. So given the science, he was not
Speaker 8: with her when she was killed. Game over.
Speaker 1: Roderick Reid and his wife Juanna have put everything careers,
Speaker 1: social lives, personal matters on hold to advocate for Rodney
Speaker 1: and found time to sit down with me. Roderick, Welcome
Speaker 1: to awful conviction. I'm sorry you're here, but hopefully we'll
Speaker 1: be able to help make a difference together and get
Speaker 1: the justice that we all want for Rodney. I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you about growing up with your older brother.
Speaker 1: What was your childhood like? Was it a happy childhood?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 5: Yeah, we had a good childhood. Matter of fact, I
Speaker 5: come from a large family. I got five brothers. Wow,
Speaker 5: the five brothers, Rodney is the fourth and nine, I'm
Speaker 5: the fifth. He always want a little brother, and when
Speaker 5: I came along, he had one, and he doted over me.
Speaker 5: He's been there every part of my life since I
Speaker 5: can remember, up until.
Speaker 2: Nineteen ninety eight when they convicted them of this crime.
Speaker 1: And when did you find out about Stacy's murder?
Speaker 5: We found about it out about it over the news,
Speaker 5: and me and Rodney talked about it, and his assumption was,
Speaker 5: I bet you I know that Jimmy Fanill did this,
Speaker 5: you know.
Speaker 2: And that's when I said, man, say, I told you
Speaker 2: you know. That's when I told your souls started. But
Speaker 2: at that.
Speaker 5: Time we had no idea. We never dreamed Rodney would
Speaker 5: be charged for Stacy's murder.
Speaker 1: What was that saying that your cousin that you almost
Speaker 1: poortends this horrible scenario.
Speaker 2: It's never good to know a dead white woman, something
Speaker 2: to that effect.
Speaker 1: It's profound and chilling when you think about how it
Speaker 1: actually played out in real life. Knowing the history of
Speaker 1: how many black men were lynched for allegedly having sex,
Speaker 1: whether they did or didn't with a white woman, And
Speaker 1: those weren't even cases in which an officer of the
Speaker 1: law was involved as a fiance or anything else. And
Speaker 1: in fact, I can't help saying this. It feels like
Speaker 1: we're doing everything we can to prevent it. But if
Speaker 1: the State of Texas goes forward this execution, it's hard
Speaker 1: to call it anything other than a modern day lynching.
Speaker 2: That's exactly what it is. It's murder.
Speaker 5: In my eyes, they committed crimes when they convicted my
Speaker 5: brother by withholding evidence, by not giving them trial, by
Speaker 5: and not testing all the dinner. And now they said
Speaker 5: their site's on taking his life. And that is something
Speaker 5: that I cannot just sit back and say nothing or
Speaker 5: do nothing about. That is something that I have to
Speaker 5: with every fiber in my body, stand up against and
Speaker 5: just get a story out here, to do all.
Speaker 2: That I can do.
Speaker 5: You know, That's what me and my family, that's what
Speaker 5: we're striving to do all that we can do.
Speaker 1: And you are doing all that you can do. And
Speaker 1: it's become a major national news story and a major
Speaker 1: cause as more and more people have become aware that
Speaker 1: this is such a not only tragic mischaracter justice, but
Speaker 1: also such an obvious mischaracter justice. Yes, you've been out there,
Speaker 1: You've been meeting with everybody, You've been on TV shows,
Speaker 1: you've been with sister Helen, you've been criss crossing the
Speaker 1: country dropping everything else that's important to you to fight
Speaker 1: this fight. Yeah, and my hat's off to you. How
Speaker 1: much hope do you have that justice will be delayed
Speaker 1: but not denied in this case.
Speaker 5: I'm very confident that after the world sees this, because
Speaker 5: I'm the backup my mom. Quote my mom, when they
Speaker 5: convicted my brother on that day, she said, y'all may
Speaker 5: do what every other going to try to do to
Speaker 5: my baby, but I guarantee you the whole world will
Speaker 5: know about it. And when she said that, I didn't
Speaker 5: realize that that's what's really what it was going to take.
Speaker 5: So I have great hope, in faith and confidence that
Speaker 5: my brother will be vindicated and.
Speaker 2: He is going to come home alive and well. I
Speaker 2: believe that. I have to believe that.
Speaker 5: I can't put nothing negative in my mind, I can't
Speaker 5: use my energy in that way.
Speaker 4: I believe it too.
Speaker 1: And we're you know, there's there's so many good people
Speaker 1: involved in this fight. Now, Yes it is, and it's
Speaker 1: growing every day.
Speaker 2: It's growing every day every.
Speaker 1: Day, and credit to you for driving that forward. So Roger,
Speaker 1: people are listening. Now, what can somebody saying, hollio, what
Speaker 1: can I do?
Speaker 2: First off?
Speaker 5: I tell everybody Contact Governor Greg Abbott, okay, call his office,
Speaker 5: writer's office. Do the same with Ken Paxton, the Board
Speaker 5: of Pardons and Paroles. Contact them, Contact even Brian Gertz
Speaker 5: bashtop County District Attorney's office. Pass the word. Tell everybody.
Speaker 5: Tag everybody on your social media sites. Help us get
Speaker 5: this word out, tell the story, Tell the story. Refer
Speaker 5: people to our website Facebook Forward slash read just his initiative.
Speaker 5: That's the family's website. My mom Sandra Reid as a
Speaker 5: president with us.
Speaker 1: So once again, that's Facebook dot com slash read Justice initiative.
Speaker 1: That's Facebook dot com slash read Justice initiative. Go to
Speaker 1: Innocenceproject dot org. Follow at Innocence Project on Instagram posting
Speaker 1: about Rodney every day. I'm posting about him just about
Speaker 1: every day on my Instagram at It's Jason Flomm. I
Speaker 1: appreciate you being here to, you know, to shed light
Speaker 1: on this terrible injustice and to try to, you know,
Speaker 1: raise more awareness maybe there's someone listening who knows the
Speaker 1: governor or who has outreach. Uh, someone who's listening who
Speaker 1: can write an article or blog or do whatever it is,
Speaker 1: or raise attention, raise hell, because if not, it's going
Speaker 1: to be a very bad day in Texas and in America.
Speaker 1: At this point, we have a feature in this show.
Speaker 1: It's my favorite part of the show, and this is
Speaker 1: the part of the show that I call closing arguments.
Speaker 1: It's where, first of all, I thank you Roger for
Speaker 1: coming to New York, being here in the studio with us,
Speaker 1: doing everything that you're doing. And now I get to
Speaker 1: kick back and turn my microphone off and leave it
Speaker 1: up to you for what I call closing arguments.
Speaker 5: What I want everybody to know is that Read Justice Initiative,
Speaker 5: it's not just about Rodney. It's about other people that
Speaker 5: find themselves in a similar situation. We're about getting justice
Speaker 5: for not just for Rodney, but for Stacy, and we
Speaker 5: want to help anybody out there that we can help
Speaker 5: along the way. But just know that right now, after
Speaker 5: we get Ridney home, we're going to be there to
Speaker 5: help anybody that needs help in the capacity that we can.
Speaker 5: When we first started this thing, it was all about Rodney.
Speaker 5: Now we see that, Hey, there's a million other Rodney
Speaker 5: reads out there, and with the firing tenacity that we
Speaker 5: have and bringing Rodney home, we're going to have the
Speaker 5: same to Nasty seeking justice and abolishing the death pildy,
Speaker 5: that's what we're want to.
Speaker 1: Do, hey Man, once again, closing arguments with Bryce Benjett,
Speaker 1: We at.
Speaker 3: The Innocence Project are continuing to work on this case. Literally,
Speaker 3: we will be filing appeals in every court available, and
Speaker 3: we will investigate leads. So if there are folks out
Speaker 3: there who may know something who have not come forward,
Speaker 3: please reach out at the Innocenceproject dot org and there
Speaker 3: is a petition that you can sign up for, but
Speaker 3: you can also send an email generally which will ultimately
Speaker 3: get to me about any information that you have. Again,
Speaker 3: this is an active investigation.
Speaker 1: Www. Dot Innocence Project dot org. Put Rodney Reid in
Speaker 1: the subject line. Bryce Benjett as our guest and is
Speaker 1: Rodney's lead attorney.
Speaker 3: We will investigate information that we get. And obviously this
Speaker 3: is a concern for everybody in our society because when
Speaker 3: we enforce a judgment like this, it is in the
Speaker 3: name of the people and so if this is something
Speaker 3: that you are not comfortable with, and I don't think
Speaker 3: you should be, you should make your voice hurt and
Speaker 3: stand up for what's right in a case like this,
Speaker 3: Doctor Phil.
Speaker 8: You know, we're sitting here in November, and twenty two
Speaker 8: Thanksgivings and twenty two Christmases have gone by with Rodney
Speaker 8: Reid not being able to touch a member of his family.
Speaker 8: And twenty two Thanksgivings and twenty two Christmases have gone
Speaker 8: by with him thinking that all the people that he
Speaker 8: does see are there to kill him. They're just waiting
Speaker 8: for a green light to take his life. And I
Speaker 8: am convinced that he's there with the full knowledge that
Speaker 8: he did not do the crime that he's in there for.
Speaker 8: And we have an opportunity to mark this holiday season
Speaker 8: by giving him the gift of his life back. And
Speaker 8: you know, sometimes we think that in this world we're born,
Speaker 8: live and die and never make a difference. This is
Speaker 8: one of those times that you can make a difference.
Speaker 8: It doesn't take money, it doesn't take time. It just
Speaker 8: takes your presence and you stepping up and saying I
Speaker 8: stand with Rodney Reid and all the other people that
Speaker 8: want him out of prison, and that includes law enforcement officers,
Speaker 8: state and federal legislators, people from all walks of life.
Speaker 8: Let's do a good thing. The governor of Texas is
Speaker 8: a former judge, and I think he's a fair man,
Speaker 8: and I think if he hears enough of us speak
Speaker 8: in a respectful way. I haven't gone to Austin and
Speaker 8: made a big grand stand show running up the steps
Speaker 8: of the Capitol with my hair on fire, trying to
Speaker 8: embarrass the governor and all that. I haven't done that.
Speaker 8: I've been very respectful in the way that we've gone
Speaker 8: about this, and I intend to continue to do so
Speaker 8: if we keep making progress here and now is the
Speaker 8: time to step up and make a difference. We're coming
Speaker 8: up on three million signatures for this petition for clemency.
Speaker 8: I would sure like to see that at ten million,
Speaker 8: there's a point at which they simply cannot ignore the outcry.
Speaker 8: Let's take this time to give him the gift of
Speaker 8: his life back.
Speaker 1: And now, with a heavy heart, but with optimism, I
Speaker 1: am going to introduce our featured guest, Rodney Reid.
Speaker 6: One thing that I really missed was really being a
Speaker 6: father to my kids, you know, and and really they
Speaker 6: have an opportunity to be the grandfather to my grandchildren.
Speaker 6: You know, I just look forward to being out there
Speaker 6: with my family, with my friends, with my loved one,
Speaker 6: with my supporters. I would really love to meet all
Speaker 6: my supporters because I feel that the support that has
Speaker 6: been generated behind me, and that's been a real push
Speaker 6: be to keep me going. You know, when I when
Speaker 6: I read their mail, read their letters. A lot of
Speaker 6: them I don't respond to, you know, but then there's
Speaker 6: a there's so much mail. I really don't have time
Speaker 6: to respond to all of them because then I have
Speaker 6: to I do have to get sleep, trying to get
Speaker 6: some sleep. But knowing that the people that are behind me,
Speaker 6: that are advocating for me, you know, I can name
Speaker 6: them all, Julie, Judy, Tiffany, Mary Bath. Yeah, they're are
Speaker 6: my real push and my mom, my brothers, and my daughter,
Speaker 6: my granddaughter's beautiful smile. You know that that that keeps me,
Speaker 6: that inspires me when I see a beautiful smile. I
Speaker 6: look forward to holding them before they get too damn big.
Speaker 6: It's just so much, so much State of Texas is
Speaker 6: trying to take my life, trying to excute me, drive me,
Speaker 6: to a table and inject my body with poisons. Don't
Speaker 6: sit back and just let this happen. Just stay out,
Speaker 6: stay involved.
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.
Speaker 4: It really helps.
Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the NSCIS project, and
Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very
Speaker 1: import and cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions.
Speaker 1: Go to Innison's project dot org to learn how to
Speaker 1: donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team,
Speaker 1: Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show
Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Rowful Conviction and
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Rowful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason
Speaker 1: Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in
Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one