1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World. When you make your 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: living as a portrait photographer, you meet all kinds of 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: interesting people around the world. My guest today has spent 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:20,159 Speaker 1: time photographing everyone from Vladimir Putin Toungsun Suki for the 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: cover of Time magazine. He's taken portraits for The Rolling Stone, 6 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: The New York Times Magazine, Vanity Fair, Esquire, g Q, 7 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: The New Yorker, and George. In two thousand and nine, 8 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: Platon teamed up with the Human Rights Watch to help 9 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: them celebrate those who fight for equality and justice in 10 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,919 Speaker 1: countries suppressed by political forces, which helped contribute to his 11 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: latest book, The Defenders, Heroes of the Fight for Global 12 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: human Rights. The Defenders presents five photo essays accompanied by 13 00:00:54,840 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: texts documenting these struggles in Burma, Egypt, Russia, the United States, 14 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: and the Democratic Republic of Congo. The images and The 15 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: Defenders were taken over the course of fifteen years. Platon's 16 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: life work is the subject of a Netflix documentary, Abstract 17 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: The Art of Design. I'm really pleased to welcome my 18 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: guests for what I think you will find is a 19 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: fascinating and fun conversation. The world renowned portrait photographer Platon. 20 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 2: It's great to speak to you, and my job is 21 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 2: always to break down barriers instantly, especially with people who 22 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 2: are to be respected because they're a powerful position. So 23 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 2: I'm not sure how I should address you, but I 24 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 2: do love the word newt, so newt with great pleasure 25 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 2: and humility. It's great to speak to you. 26 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: How did you get your start intography? 27 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: Well, firstly, it's the only thing I can do. I'm 28 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 2: useless for everything else. But it's not really about photography. 29 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 2: It's about connecting with people. Photography is a technical thing, 30 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 2: and I have mastered it. It's like a tennis player 31 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 2: mastering their technique. But the most important thing is being 32 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 2: fascinated by the human condition and being really interested in 33 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 2: this idea of breaking down barriers between people and trying 34 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,839 Speaker 2: to tune in to someone's frequency. It's like an old 35 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 2: fashioned radio set and if you turn the dial, sometimes 36 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 2: the signals clear. Sometimes there's a lot of static, and 37 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 2: you have to really concentrate hard to hear the message. 38 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 2: That's what it's like with people. Everyone has their own special, 39 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 2: unique frequency, and I've always been fascinated by trying to 40 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 2: tune into that and connect with them on a human 41 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 2: basic level, and that I have a healthy disregard for power. 42 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: You could say I'm even immune to it. I see 43 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 2: people as people. I'm always respectful. But that sort of 44 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: democratic look at the world allows me to interact with 45 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: very powerful people on a human level, and I feel 46 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 2: very privileged to be able to do that. But more so, 47 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: I can interact with people who have been robbed of 48 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 2: all power, and I'm also able to talk to them 49 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,679 Speaker 2: in the same way and share stories and share ideas. 50 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 2: So it's a great leveler for me to navigate a 51 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 2: path through life. 52 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: So in the sense of understanding you, the humanness and 53 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: the art is more significant than the technology. 54 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: Well, the technology is obviously necessary. Any athlete will tell 55 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: you that their technique their training. Any boxer will tell 56 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: you that the training is everything. So I'm match fit 57 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 2: all the time. There's no doubt about that. I have 58 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 2: mastered my art. But the question is you have to 59 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 2: know it so well that you no longer think about it, 60 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: that you're liberated from it. So I'm not thinking about 61 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: the grammar of a visual image. It's intuitive after a while, 62 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: and it allows me to put one hundred and fifty 63 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 2: percent into concentrating on my subjects character, mood, temperament, what 64 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 2: they've gone through that morning just before the shoot. I 65 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 2: don't know what it is, but I know it's going 66 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 2: to affect them in one way or another. So that 67 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 2: high level of concentration, and above all, it's not being judgmental. 68 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 2: And I've had to work up that over my career. 69 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 2: When I was a young gun, I would go into 70 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 2: shoots prejudging someone. Maybe I disagreed with them politically, maybe 71 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 2: I disagreed with them morally, and it would cloud my 72 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 2: judgment Newt. It would cloud my judgment and stop me 73 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: seeing things. Powers of observation come alive when you are cure. 74 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 2: So I've learned to be more curious as I've got older, 75 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 2: and it's made me more powerful as a photographer because 76 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 2: I can really see things that so many people miss. 77 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 2: So it's a position of humility rather than strength. 78 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: Do you find in that sense that you are more 79 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: accepting of people as you've gotten older, that you're more 80 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: willing to allow them to be who they are without 81 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: your judgment? I am. 82 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 2: And I think it's also that it's not for me 83 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 2: to make a judgment. It's for history to make a judgment. 84 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 2: It's for me to document these people's lives and share 85 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,919 Speaker 2: stories that they shared with me, and I put it 86 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 2: back to society. I'm a cultural provocateur. I say, these 87 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 2: are the people that shape our times, and I encourage 88 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: everybody to have a respectful debate about their values. And 89 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: if you look at the division in our society right 90 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 2: now and the resentment between people on all fronts, whether 91 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: it's religion, whether it's politics, whether it's cultural issues, whether 92 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 2: it's gender, whether it's race, it goes on and on 93 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 2: forever the list, and I acknowledge there's a lot of 94 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 2: pain that people are feeling. You see it coming from 95 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 2: the streets. But at the same time, there are powerful 96 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 2: forces pulling us apart, and I care deeply that unity 97 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 2: is something that we all need to focus on as 98 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 2: we enter the next phase in history. 99 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: It's fascinating because you photograph more world leaders, including six 100 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: American presidents, than anyone else ever has. How did you 101 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: get you to start photographing world leaders? 102 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: I think my first president in the US was Bill Clinton, 103 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 2: someone who you're very familiar with, and he was a 104 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 2: different type of president and I was a different type 105 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 2: of photographer. They said to me at Esquire magazine in 106 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 2: those days I was. They called me into their office 107 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:08,559 Speaker 2: and they said, right, we're giving you the biggest break 108 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 2: we've ever given a young, upstart photographer. It's the most 109 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: powerful man in the world, the biggest photo shoot in 110 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 2: our eighty year history at the magazine. It's a cover story. 111 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 2: It's his last official portrait as president before he leaves office, 112 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 2: and we're giving it to you. And I said, wow, 113 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 2: that's fantastic, and they said, not really, because you're not 114 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: our first choice. I was a fourth choice, nute, so 115 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 2: a humble beginning. But you know, they said to me, 116 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 2: whatever you do, don't take those wide angle pictures. We 117 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 2: want a nice, elegant portrait of our president, hand on 118 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 2: the chin, looking very noble. And I remember they gave 119 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: me eight minutes to do the shoot. They shut down 120 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 2: a two hundred room hotel for security, and I spent 121 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 2: seven and a half minutes doing the pictures I promised 122 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 2: I would do. And then I had a moment. And 123 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 2: it was a moment where I talked to myself and 124 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 2: time stood still. And I'm sure you've had those moments 125 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 2: in your life where you say to yourself, come on, 126 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 2: let's be honest. I've honestly, I felt a bit of 127 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: an impostor at that moment. I felt I'm standing in 128 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 2: front of one of the most powerful men in the world, 129 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: maybe the most powerful man, and this is Fluke. How 130 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 2: did I get here? I'll never get another chance again. 131 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 2: This is my one chance, so I might as well 132 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 2: take the picture I really want to take and be human. 133 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 2: So to get his attention, I shouted out, mister president, 134 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 2: will you show me the love? And there was silence 135 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 2: in the room. I think it was his chief of 136 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 2: staff who stepped forward and said, mister President, whatever you do, 137 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 2: do not show him the love. Perhaps we've had enough 138 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 2: love in this administration, mister president. But then Clinton sort 139 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 2: of got what I was trying to do, and he said, 140 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 2: I get it. I get it. He put his hands 141 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: on his knee and gave me the charisma. And I 142 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 2: caught it on film, and I thought the magazine would 143 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 2: be furious with me because I broke the rules. I 144 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 2: put on the wide angle lens. It's not a normal 145 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 2: type of presidential picture. It's a human picture about a 146 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: man's capacity to connect with people. You could even say 147 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 2: seduce people. I know that's a loaded thing to say. 148 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 2: Especially with you. But it's the truth. He had this 149 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 2: giant amount of charisma and that made him very powerful 150 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 2: as a political figure. But you could also say it 151 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 2: was his flaw as well. So I caught all that 152 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 2: on film. But then of course when it comes out, 153 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 2: then the American establishment, especially in the press, were kind 154 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 2: of horrified by the picture that they called it the 155 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 2: crotch shot, and all these people started to read in 156 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 2: this sexuality into the picture, which honestly, I was not 157 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 2: thinking about that the time I took it one five 158 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 2: hundredth of a second my pictures. But when I get 159 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 2: it right newt it works for everyone, for supporters and critics. 160 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 2: My picture of Putin, I mean, I've been told Putin 161 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 2: loves that picture because it shows him as a tough 162 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 2: nationalist that he is. But the opposition to Putin the 163 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 2: human rights community also love that picture because it gave 164 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 2: them a banner to show everything that they believe is 165 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 2: wrong with power in Russia. Now it's the same picture, 166 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 2: and I know that Putin had it on his wall. 167 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 2: I was told that he had it on his wall 168 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 2: in his office. But I also know that Pussy Riot, 169 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,319 Speaker 2: for instance, who are friends of mine, now they set 170 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 2: fire to that picture in demonstrations, and if you go online, 171 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 2: you'll see my portrait has been doctored thousands of times 172 00:10:55,520 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 2: in demonstrations, photo shopping, horns onto him and rouge onto 173 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 2: his cheeks, or messing with his you know, identity, so 174 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 2: much so that Putin has now issued a decree. I 175 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: believe that anyone who's caught circulating my portrait of him 176 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 2: in connection with human rights will go to jail. And 177 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 2: that picture is now called extremist material. It's the same 178 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 2: picture that he actually loves. 179 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: What was he like to work with? 180 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 2: You know again, power And you're very familiar with this. 181 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 2: You are part of the power establishment, you still are. 182 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 2: You understand this language very very well, and I've been 183 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 2: around it long enough to also understand it. But I 184 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 2: read it from maybe a different point of view because 185 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 2: I have no power myself at all, so I'm able 186 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 2: to stand back and watch this circus play out. I 187 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 2: was informed that the moment in history would happen in 188 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 2: the halls of the Kremlin. So one cold day in December, 189 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 2: I was driven through the streets of Moscow by a 190 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 2: former KGB BMW agent driving the car. We get to 191 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 2: the gates Suddenly he does a hard turn and speeds 192 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 2: the car up out of the streets of Moscow into 193 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 2: a dark, bleak, Gothic forest. I mean, you get into 194 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 2: this forest and you have no idea what's about to 195 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 2: happen to you. And then I arrive at very sinister building, 196 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 2: his private residence, his private dasher, in the middle of 197 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 2: this forest, and it's surrounded by a two story high 198 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 2: security wall with snipers all the way along the top. 199 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 2: And at gunpoint I'm asked to open up my cameras 200 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 2: in the snow and show them what's inside the lenses 201 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 2: for security reasons. And then at gunpoint I'm led into 202 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 2: the building. So by the time you get into the 203 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 2: building and then you wait for hours and hours in 204 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 2: this room, I mean, your confidence is diminished extremely. I 205 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 2: believe it's not by accident. I mean, you know, all 206 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 2: the White House does this to people too, not as extreme, 207 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 2: but there are versions of this. So when he walks 208 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 2: in the room, he's got a giant entourage. He's got 209 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 2: two translators, a group of advisers, and a gang of bodyguards. 210 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 2: And I nervously said to him, you know, mister President, 211 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 2: before I capture this moment, in history. I would love 212 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: to ask you a humble question, I said. My mom 213 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 2: and dad brought me up listening to the music of 214 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 2: the Beatles, and I would like to know if you 215 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 2: ever listened to the Beatles. So they translate in his ear. 216 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 2: There's some confusing looks amongst the entourage, and then his 217 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 2: mood drops and in Russian he orders the two translators 218 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 2: and all his advisers out of the room immediately. The 219 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 2: bodyguards stay. And then he turns to me and in 220 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 2: perfect English, Putin says, I love the Beatles. I said, 221 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 2: I didn't know you spoke English. He said, I speak 222 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 2: perfect English. So I said, wow, okay, Well, in that case, 223 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 2: who's your favorite beatle? He said, Paul, I said, interesting, 224 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 2: what's your favorite song? Is it? Back in the USSR 225 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 2: He did not like that at all. Like his bodyguards, 226 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 2: who spoke a bit of English, one of them sort 227 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 2: of put his head in his hand, but then put 228 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: In turn to me again and he said, no, my 229 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 2: favorite song is Yesterday. Think about it. And I thought 230 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 2: about it for many years since I took that picture. 231 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 2: And what I think he was doing is sending me 232 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 2: a subliminal message about the old days of power and 233 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 2: authority of the Soviet Union through the lyrics of a 234 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 2: Paul McCartney song, and that connection allowed me in and 235 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 2: I ended up an inch and a half away from 236 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 2: his nose. I could feel his breath on my hand 237 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 2: as I focused the lens, and that's how I got 238 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 2: what I felt was the truth that day that my 239 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 2: picture is the face of power and authority in Russia. 240 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: There's no question as a brilliant and I think very 241 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: revealing picture of somebody who's disciplined and organized. Yeah, and 242 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: all too often underestimated in the West. They don't appreciate 243 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: how methodical he is. 244 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely true, and quite honestly, very few people 245 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 2: have ever said that. Back to me from the American side, 246 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: you're one of the few people who said that he's 247 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 2: a strategist. He's calm, he's calculating. This rambo image that 248 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 2: was cultivated of hunting with your shirt off in the forest. 249 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 2: I mean that was given to us to chew on. 250 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: The reality is I mean, he is a tough guy. 251 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 2: He does project strength, but he also is a master 252 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 2: strategist and he's formidable, and every move he makes I 253 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 2: believe he's planned this. He's not reckless, which may sound 254 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 2: bizarre at the moment in history right now, but I 255 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 2: believe he has a plan and he's moving five steps ahead, 256 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 2: and so far he's out maneuvered everybody. It seems. That's 257 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 2: the appearance we get. He's not to be underestimated. 258 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's right. I think he was given 259 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: very bad advice about how rapidly they could beat Ukraine, 260 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: and they operated based on the advice, which also, by 261 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: the way, was the estimate of the American Chairman of 262 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: the Joint Chiefs, so that Ukraine would collapse and they didn't. 263 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: But I think that there's a toughness to put in 264 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: that you have to be very careful about. 265 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 2: And also one last thing, there's a commitment and never 266 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 2: ending commitment. And this is something that Winston Churchill always 267 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 2: would say that you know your opponent also believes they 268 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 2: will win, and we can't seem to come to terms 269 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 2: with that that Putin also believes he will win. He 270 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 2: has a stake in the game, and he's prepared to 271 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 2: go as far as he believes he will go. We 272 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 2: don't know how far that is. That's the game of 273 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 2: chicken that everyone plays right now. But he believes he 274 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 2: will win this, and that's something that we need to 275 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 2: come to terms with that. It's not a question of 276 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 2: just assuming that he's lost his mind, he's reckless, maybe 277 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 2: his health isn't great, all these things that we keep 278 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 2: hearing circulating in our press. 279 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: I think he's a very serious competitor and that you 280 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: oh his professionalism a very high level of respect in 281 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: dealing with them. One of your most memorable photo sessions 282 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: was Muhammad Ali, which is pretty dramatically different from Putin. 283 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: What was your sense of being with this extraordinary person 284 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:58,479 Speaker 1: who'd become a worldwide figure. 285 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,880 Speaker 2: I mean, it's fun because Putin right now you could 286 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 2: say is the most famous man in the world. Perhaps, 287 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 2: and there was a time when Arli was the most 288 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 2: famous man in the world. But when I photographed him, 289 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 2: he was ravaged by Parkinson's disease. He was very frail. 290 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 2: I had the great privilege to go to his house. 291 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 2: He invited me there to do the pictures. I was 292 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 2: doing a photo essay honoring all the heroes of the 293 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 2: civil rights movement at the time, so he was very 294 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 2: much the central part of that story for me. I 295 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 2: remember he walked into the room. He actually shuffled into 296 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 2: the room. He's a big guy, but even though his 297 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 2: body was weak, there was this power that I felt 298 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 2: when he shuffled in the room. I mean, the presence 299 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 2: of this man is unbelievable. Even with this terrible condition 300 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 2: Parkinson's disease, he had lost control practically of his once 301 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 2: most powerful arms and fists. But when I draped the 302 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 2: American flag over his shoulders, something happened and he was compelled, 303 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 2: perhaps one of the last times, to try and hold 304 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 2: up his fists in that classic defiant boxing pose for me. 305 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 2: And when you look at the picture, it looks defiant, elegant, 306 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 2: he looks determined. But if you were in the room, 307 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 2: newte you would have seen a frail, elderly gentleman struggling 308 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 2: so hard to try and keep his hands up in 309 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 2: that position just for a second. And I remember his 310 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 2: wife got very emotional who was watching, because she hadn't 311 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 2: seen him to be able to sort of project this 312 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 2: defiance in a while physically. At that point I put 313 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 2: down the camera. I was so moved, and I said, Mohammed, 314 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 2: you are the greatest teach me to be great? How 315 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 2: can my generation be as great as your generation had? 316 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 2: To be during the Civil rights era, and he couldn't 317 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 2: speak very well because of the condition, so I had 318 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 2: to get really close to him, and he whispered something 319 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,400 Speaker 2: in my ear and he said, I have a confession 320 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 2: to make. What is it? I said, and he said 321 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 2: I wasn't as great as I said I was. Holy shit, 322 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 2: I said, that's the biggest confession I ever heard in 323 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 2: my life. The whole world knows you as a LEI 324 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: the greatest. But then he gave me this powerful look, 325 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: squinted his eyes and he says, you misunderstand me. I'll 326 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 2: tell you what was great, and it wasn't me. It 327 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 2: was that people saw themselves in my struggle, that people 328 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 2: saw themselves in my story. And then he turned it 329 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 2: to me. And now today I've got the great honor 330 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 2: to share it with you and your listeners to say this, 331 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 2: if we can get people to see themselves in the 332 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 2: stories that we put forward and share, then we have 333 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 2: a chance of achieving greatness. But that greatness is never 334 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 2: us personally. It's something much bigger, called bridge building. And 335 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,199 Speaker 2: a light bulb went off in my brain because it 336 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: was another confirmation along my mad journey of life. There's 337 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 2: another reminder that what we have to try and do 338 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 2: is to create bridges so that people can cross and 339 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 2: have a respectful conversation. And we can't hope for unity. 340 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 2: We can't assume everyone's going to be uniform than not. 341 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 2: Everyone is different. Everyone is entitled to have a different 342 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 2: point of view and a different outlook. That's a fact. 343 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 2: So what we then have to do to come together 344 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 2: is to embrace our differences and actually think of each 345 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 2: other not as strangers, but as creative partners. That's when 346 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 2: things start to get really interesting, that we work together 347 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 2: because we're different. And I think that's really interesting. 348 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: That's fascinating, though significantly different personality. Thirteen years before he 349 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: became president, you photographed Donald Trump, which had to have 350 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,719 Speaker 1: been different than either Putin or Mohammed Atli. 351 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 2: But everyone's different, and that's the beautiful thing. Like a 352 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 2: human rights defender or an immigrant who's living in the 353 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 2: shadows of society, they sit on this little apple box 354 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 2: that all the world leaders sit on. It's a painted 355 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 2: white box covered in scratches and dense and Gadaffi sat 356 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 2: on it, Putin sat on it, six US president sat 357 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 2: on it. And when an immigrant or a homeless person 358 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 2: sits on it. Complete democracy, no drapes, no throne like chair, 359 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 2: no evidence of power for the powerful, and no evidence 360 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 2: of oppression to the weak. It's a democratic, neutral space 361 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 2: for people to sit on and express their humanity. To me. 362 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 2: And when Donald Trump came into the room, I photographed 363 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 2: him in Trump Tower, and I have to say he 364 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 2: was very charming. He was very charismatic. He had a 365 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 2: great sense of humor. I said to him, Donald, I 366 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 2: want you to look straight into the camera in a 367 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,959 Speaker 2: very balanced, symmetrical way. And he said, oh no, no, no, no, 368 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 2: that's not how we do this. So I said, well, 369 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 2: what do you mean, how do we do it? And 370 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 2: then he turned sideways and he pointed to his cheek 371 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 2: and he said, this is my best side. Now, listen, 372 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 2: newte Of all the politicians I've had the privilege to 373 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 2: work with, not one has ever said this is my 374 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: best side. Take it. On the contrary, everyone is normally 375 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 2: a little anxious that I might accidentally catch their worst side. 376 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 2: And what does it tell us about Donald Trump? I 377 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 2: mean it tells me that, despite his battles with the media, 378 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 2: I think he loves the media. I think he thinks 379 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 2: of the media as his greatest instrument, and it's sometimes 380 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 2: even a weapon, a political weapon. So I said to him, Donald, 381 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 2: let's be human together. I said, I followed your career 382 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 2: for many years. No one doubts it's an extraordinary career 383 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 2: path you've had. But there's always something about you. There's 384 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 2: always an air of tension and controversy about things you 385 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,640 Speaker 2: say and do in public. And I'm sure it's intentional 386 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 2: on your part, but it feels like you're in the 387 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 2: middle of an emotional storm. And on a personal level, 388 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 2: I couldn't live with that constant anxiety myself. It would 389 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 2: freak me out. How do you weather the storm? And 390 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 2: he calmly looked at me and he said, I am 391 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 2: the storm. I had those words ringing out through the elections, and. 392 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: As we talk today, he is the storm. 393 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 2: Nothing's changed who There's only one person who navigates perfectly 394 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,479 Speaker 2: through the storm, and that's the creator of the storm. 395 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 2: And again he is not to be underestimated. He's in 396 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 2: tune with something he understands, people power. And I keep 397 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 2: seeing members of the left side of politics try many 398 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 2: strategies to outsmart him. But it's extraordinary how he's still here. 399 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: He's still dominating the rhythm of American politics, and he 400 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 2: is formidable and not to be underestimated by any means. 401 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: You know, if I might. Tim Russert was the last 402 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,360 Speaker 1: person to interview Reagan while Reagan was in the office, 403 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: and he said, President Reagan, what do you think is 404 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: the one thing that you had that no other president had? 405 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: And he said, Reagan sat there for am it and 406 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: find He said, you know, I think I'm probably the 407 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: only president who knows what it's like to be photographed 408 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 1: from every angle, because of course there's a movie star. 409 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,120 Speaker 1: And Russer said he suddenly realized that Reagan had never 410 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 1: once been casual. He was just really good at playing casual. Yeah. 411 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 2: And with that comparison, then you could also say that 412 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 2: Trump had his TV show and he became very good 413 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 2: with the cameras. He knows what gives good TV. He 414 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 2: knows how to capture your attention with just a look. 415 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 2: And in today's political arena, that's a high skill level. 416 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 2: That's at all. 417 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: When he was first emerging as a candidate, I would 418 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: try to tell normal American reporters that thirteen years of 419 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: doing the Apprentice represented a skill level of using TV 420 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: and understanding your audience. I said, you know, if The 421 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: Apprentice had come on PBS right after Dalton Abbey, you 422 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: all would have understood it. But because it was on 423 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: commercial TV, none of you'd ever seen it, and you 424 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: had no idea how good he was. 425 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 2: But the people watched it. 426 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: They did. 427 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 2: The people watched it, and they knew and he knew them, 428 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 2: and they knew him. Yes, And I think there's a 429 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 2: disconnect with his political opponents. They can't It seems to 430 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 2: me this I'm just an observation here, but they can't 431 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 2: seem to find a way to beat him. 432 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: He understands how to dance, and he has about half 433 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 1: the country dancing with him. And I tell people he's 434 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: not a candidate, he's the leader of a movement, and 435 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: they're all dancing together. I have to ask you one 436 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: set up question. The very famous photographer who got the 437 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: picture of Churchill that scene where he cannot get Churchill 438 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: to look angry, and so he finally takes away his cigar. 439 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: The instant after that he gets the shot he wants. 440 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 2: It's amazing story. Churchill had just addressed the Canadian government, 441 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 2: desperately trying to rally everybody during the vulnerable time in 442 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 2: the Second World War, and Churchill goes backstage just after 443 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 2: his speech. In the picture, he's actually got the speech 444 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 2: rolled up on a piece of paper in his pocket 445 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 2: of his jacket, you can see it. And he walks 446 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 2: in with a cigar and he wasn't expecting to be photographed, 447 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 2: so he sort of walks in and says, what's going 448 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 2: on here? And carsh says, please, this is a historic 449 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 2: moment for us in Canada. Would you sit for me? 450 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 2: So he stands there, lights his cigar and he's puffing away, 451 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 2: and carsh goes up to him and he says, permit me, sir, 452 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 2: and he just plucks it out of his mouth and 453 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 2: then rushes behind. And because he had his back to 454 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 2: him as he's rushing to the camera, he couldn't see 455 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 2: Churchill's response, And as he looks through the lens he 456 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 2: sees this sort of the Churchillian tough man giving him 457 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 2: this stern look, how dare you? But I quite like 458 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 2: it at the same time, And that's history. And honestly, 459 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 2: newte people sometimes ask me, if you could have taken 460 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,239 Speaker 2: a picture in history, what one are you most jealous of? 461 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 2: It's that picture for me. It's an amazing picture, and 462 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 2: it's all down to luck and this accidental human interaction. 463 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 2: But it's evidence that when a photographer and a subject 464 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 2: can sort of create a spark together, that spark becomes 465 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 2: a symbol of something and history may change after that 466 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 2: picture's taken, but a good picture lasts forever. Even as 467 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 2: history changes, we still see something in that person's eyes, 468 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 2: whether they're a villain or a hero. 469 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: Along that line, it's not just famous people or heroic people, 470 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: but you moved into taking some extraordinary human pictures. Can 471 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: you tell a little bit about the story of the 472 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: little girl wearing the free my Dad t shirt? 473 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was covering immigration in America. If I could 474 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 2: give you a background. This is during Obama's era, right 475 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 2: bang in the middle of his two terms, and I 476 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 2: was told by many people on Capitol Hill that that 477 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 2: was not a priority of the government. Immigration and even 478 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 2: members of the press informed me that it's also not 479 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 2: a top story. But when I started covering the story 480 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 2: myself crossing the border, I started to see a crisis 481 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 2: emerging on the ground. I saw families torn apart, I 482 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 2: saw soaring deaths at the border, and I thought to 483 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 2: myself there's a crisis brewing here, and if no one 484 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 2: addresses it and tries to deal with it, or even 485 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 2: debate it or discuss it, then someone is soon going 486 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 2: to come along and this becomes political currency for the 487 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 2: next generation of leaders. And that's exactly what happened, and 488 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 2: it gave Trump a great opportunity, I think, to say, 489 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 2: this is a crisis and we are not dealing with it. 490 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 2: So I went to an immigration march for immigrants' rights. 491 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 2: And again, my work is never to take political sides. 492 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 2: Whether I'm photographing powerful politicians or people on the street. 493 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 2: My job is to try and be curious, tune into 494 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 2: people's character, and present images that provoke a debate. It's 495 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 2: the debate that's important, and it's not winning the debate. 496 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 2: It's having the debate that's important. And I know that's 497 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 2: something you care about too. So I saw this mother 498 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 2: marching with lots of mothers and children and family, and 499 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 2: they're all singing songs and waving flags. And this mother 500 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 2: was marching with her three year old little daughter called Evelyn. 501 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 2: Evelyn had a T shirt, homemade T shirt that had 502 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 2: free my Dad painted on it. Evelyn was a US citizen, 503 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 2: her mother was too. Her father was not. He was 504 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 2: caught without the proper paperwork and was deported. This family 505 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 2: is now facing a very uncertain future. They've lost the breadwinner, 506 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 2: the love of a husband, and a father. Very vulnerable. 507 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 2: So I went up to the mother and I said, 508 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 2: your little girl looks amazing and the T shirt is 509 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 2: a very powerful message. Do you mind if I photograph her? 510 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 2: The mother kindly agreed. But when little Evelyn, who was three, 511 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 2: I think, I said, saw my cameras, my assistants, my 512 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 2: lighting set up on the wall by the side of 513 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 2: the street, she got spooked and she hid behind her 514 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: mum's legs. And that's not the picture I wanted to take. 515 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 2: That's not the little girl who was empowered singing songs 516 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 2: a few seconds ago that I saw. I suddenly saw 517 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 2: a frightened child. So to earn the little girl's trust, 518 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 2: I had to play balloons with her for five hours. Eventually, 519 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 2: the little girl points to me and she says, picture, 520 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 2: and she was ready. I learned her trust. I took 521 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 2: a picture that was now empowered. If you look at 522 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 2: the little girl's clenched fist, she's still holding a shriveled 523 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 2: up balloon in her hand that you can barely see. 524 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 2: I turned to the mother and I said, I think 525 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 2: I've taken one of the most important pictures of my 526 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 2: life because with this picture, I think we can bring 527 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 2: some humanity back to the data and humanize this crisis, 528 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 2: so all our politicians from all political sides can have 529 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 2: a proper debate about what is the right or wrong 530 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 2: thing to do here. The mother then turns to a 531 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 2: daughter and she says, the photographer is very happy you 532 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 2: did good. And then Evelyn says, Mummy, if I did 533 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 2: so good, does that mean Daddy can come home. 534 00:33:58,080 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: Now. 535 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 2: That reminded that Evelyn is a little girl. She might 536 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 2: be our child, she might be our grandchild. There's something 537 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 2: deeply human about the way a child sees the world. 538 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 2: We're seeing children put in vulnerable positions all around the 539 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 2: world in such troubled regions. We're seeing it now in Gaza. 540 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 2: We see it all the time. And while everyone is 541 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,399 Speaker 2: trying to measure pain as data and use it as 542 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 2: political currency, I think it's really important to rehumanize the data. 543 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 2: And whenever we've dehumanized people in the past, look at 544 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 2: the pages of history that we've stained. But when people 545 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 2: are real people that we see ourselves in. Just like 546 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 2: Muhammad Ali said, then it's a different discussion. It allows 547 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 2: us to debate. And I don't think one side has 548 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 2: an advantage if we humanize people. I think it's somewhere 549 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 2: in the middle. The advantages to politicians happen when the 550 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 2: humanity is stripped. I believe in people power, and I 551 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 2: think that real power is actually not authority but responsibility. 552 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 2: And I no longer look at political leaders as Wow, 553 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 2: this is so cool. I'm in the room with this 554 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 2: powerful person. I am now looking into their eyes seeing 555 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 2: you are responsible for so many people, and I hope 556 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 2: you carry that responsibility well on your shoulders, because that's 557 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 2: a heavy weight to carry. 558 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: You made a huge transition in a sense when you 559 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: decided to work with Human Rights Watch and to go 560 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: around and film the face of pain and the face 561 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: of powerlessness and the face of oppression. That added to 562 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 1: a bit of big decision, because that was a huge 563 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: transition from going to nice rooms to take pictures of 564 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: powerful people with the campaign nearby everything else. I mean, 565 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: what led you to that decision? 566 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 2: Human Rights Watch came to my office just after I'd 567 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,959 Speaker 2: photographed ourli and I'd worked with the Little Rot Nine, 568 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 2: for instance, many great members of the civil rights community. 569 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 2: And they said, we have a problem. We have all 570 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 2: this data, all this research, but no one seems interested 571 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 2: in the media in politics. We can't seem to get 572 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 2: into people's hearts. And they said, maybe we need to 573 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 2: change our plans, maybe we need to change the narrative. 574 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 2: I've always believed that guilt doesn't work. Accusation political accusation 575 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 2: doesn't work when you're trying to persuade people to respect 576 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 2: human rights. And I don't believe one side of the 577 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 2: political oile owns the banner of human rights. I think 578 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 2: it's something that is above all political ideology. So they said, 579 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 2: there's a forgotten country called burmavaged by years of civil 580 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 2: war and a brutal military dictatorship. And if you fight 581 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 2: for freedom in Burma, you're either exiled, tortured, imprisoned, or killed. 582 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 2: There's very little other options. And they said, we would 583 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 2: like to send you to a remote outpost at the 584 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 2: Thai Burma border to photograph a community of exiles. And 585 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 2: I said, well, how much will I get And they 586 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 2: said no money. I said, ah, I said, is it dangerous? 587 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 2: And they said yes, it's dangerous. I said how long 588 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 2: is it going to take? And they said months, maybe 589 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 2: a year to do this full project. I had an 590 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 2: office in New York. My wife had just had a baby. 591 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 2: She was very vulnerable. But I thought about what Arlie said, 592 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 2: so I said, all right, I'll do it. So we went. 593 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,879 Speaker 2: It's a terrible journey, like long flight, then eleven hour 594 00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 2: car journey into the mountains and we got there to 595 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 2: set up our first shoot straight from travel. So we 596 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 2: were all jet lagged and tired, and we went to 597 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 2: a community center put together by former political prisoners who 598 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 2: had been locked up for thirty years, some of them 599 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 2: because they dared to sing a song about freedom in college. 600 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 2: So they're eventually thrown out of jail onto the streets, 601 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,399 Speaker 2: and they formed a self help group to support each 602 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 2: other because no one else would help them. So I'm 603 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 2: in this place and it's a dump mud, it's a 604 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 2: hole in the ground place. And while my assistants are 605 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,720 Speaker 2: setting up the lights, I'm walking around in a bad mood. 606 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 2: I wasn't feeling this at all. I didn't want to 607 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 2: be there. I missed my wife. I was worried for 608 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 2: our security, and I noticed There was a year planner 609 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,759 Speaker 2: on the wall January February March, like we all have 610 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 2: in our office, and every day on that year was empty. 611 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 2: There were no plans for this organization, no events except 612 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,319 Speaker 2: for that day's date, and there was a little red 613 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 2: cross on it with some scribbles. I went in close 614 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 2: to see if I could read them, and it was 615 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 2: in Burmese, so I couldn't don't speak the language. And 616 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 2: this guy in a salmon tunic comes up to me 617 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 2: and he says, today is the day. So I said, 618 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,879 Speaker 2: excuse me, what do you mean? He said, I'm translating 619 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,439 Speaker 2: for you the words. It says, today is the day 620 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:36,399 Speaker 2: famous photographer Platon is coming to help us newte At 621 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:41,760 Speaker 2: that point, my heart stopped. I felt guilty, I felt 622 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 2: ashamed of myself, and I also felt fraudulent. The truth 623 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 2: is that I was not famous. I was just a 624 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,839 Speaker 2: young gun trying to make it in America, and I 625 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,280 Speaker 2: didn't know anything about human rights. I was used to photographing, 626 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 2: as you say, powerful politicians and icons. But I looked 627 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,239 Speaker 2: around the room and I was all they had. There 628 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 2: was no one else there anyway. And that's one of 629 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 2: those moments again where you just talk to yourself and 630 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,879 Speaker 2: you say, dude, you've got to become the person they 631 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,279 Speaker 2: need you to be today. And even if you're not 632 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 2: feeling that in your psyche, you've got to pretend for them. 633 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,360 Speaker 2: So I thought, well, I do know how to photograph 634 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 2: people as powerful as icons of their time. I know 635 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,919 Speaker 2: how to make a time cover. I've shot thirty of them. 636 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,799 Speaker 2: I know how to make a Vanity Fair cover or 637 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 2: even a rolling Stone cover. So why don't I photograph 638 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 2: these people not as victims but as victor's These people 639 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 2: must be so strong to have gone through all that 640 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 2: and still come out and want their story told. So 641 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 2: I photographed these guys as powerful. I then went on 642 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:59,239 Speaker 2: and photographed landmine victims, children who were orphans, monks who 643 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,920 Speaker 2: led the Saffron Revolution, cartoonists, video journalists, all living in 644 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 2: exile in the mountains. I brought the images back and 645 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 2: I worked on them for the rest of the year, 646 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 2: and then I persuaded my editor David Remnick at The 647 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 2: New Yorker, where I was a staff photographer in those days, 648 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,840 Speaker 2: to run the story. David kindly ran it is very gracious, 649 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,880 Speaker 2: and because the New Yorker ran it, one hundred news 650 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 2: and media institutions and outlets around the world took the 651 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 2: story and it was a game changer for human rights 652 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 2: because it was the first time people were seen as powerful. 653 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 2: They had been robbed of so much in their lives, 654 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 2: and they had been victimized, but they were not seen 655 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 2: as victims in my pictures. They were seen as a 656 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 2: new set of cultural heroes. And that change in the 657 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 2: narrative is so important. How we see each other draws 658 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 2: people to these subjects, So you're not drawing people to 659 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,879 Speaker 2: the subject because of guilt, but because of inspiration. And 660 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:07,760 Speaker 2: in my book, this guy who translated for me wearing 661 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,320 Speaker 2: the salmon tunic that day, turns out his name is 662 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 2: Cobo Chi, and he's an incredible hero of human rights, 663 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 2: fighting for people's dignity. And I invited him and a 664 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,880 Speaker 2: handful of other great people to write an essay in 665 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 2: my book, and he graciously agreed. And in his essay 666 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:33,440 Speaker 2: he writes about what it's like to have your freedom 667 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,319 Speaker 2: taken away? And do you mind if I read you 668 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 2: a couple of the words, he said. 669 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 1: I'd be delighted. This is from your new book, The Defenders. 670 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he is a defender, and this is what 671 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 2: he said about prison. He said, I was placed in 672 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 2: a tiny cell with no natural light. Reading, writing, studying 673 00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 2: were all banned. I realized that my captors wanted to 674 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 2: kill my intelligence and my humanity. I was tortured both 675 00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:09,360 Speaker 2: mentally and physically. I was beaten and kicked, and forced 676 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,799 Speaker 2: to stand for hours on end. When my feet were 677 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:16,759 Speaker 2: too swollen to support my body, I collapsed with exhaustion. 678 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 2: They pulled me up by my ears. I was blindfolded, 679 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 2: unable to see sunlight or to tell whether it was 680 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 2: night or day. At times I thought I would die, 681 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,720 Speaker 2: but I slowly came to understand there was a reason 682 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:36,320 Speaker 2: I stayed alive. 683 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:38,839 Speaker 1: I have seen my. 684 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:43,120 Speaker 2: Photo that Platon took in many magazines, and it makes 685 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 2: me proud. The more my portrait appears the world over, 686 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 2: the more pressure is put on the Burmese government to 687 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:55,440 Speaker 2: acknowledge our existence, to apologize for our treatment, and to 688 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:59,400 Speaker 2: offer reparations to help us move forward with our lives. 689 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:04,840 Speaker 2: This portrait of me protects my dignity and encourages me 690 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:10,280 Speaker 2: to continue the hardships of fighting for justice. That newt 691 00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:14,480 Speaker 2: is one of the greatest honors I could ever have. 692 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 2: That's the prize It's not winning awards at some posh 693 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 2: ceremony where everyone's drinking champagne. It's having that kind of 694 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 2: validation from someone who had nothing but their story to tell, 695 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,400 Speaker 2: and if he felt it was told appropriately with dignity 696 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,879 Speaker 2: that moved people to think differently about values, then that 697 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:40,400 Speaker 2: is what we should all aspire to in society. So 698 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,840 Speaker 2: since then I went on to the Egyptian Revolution. I 699 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 2: filmed leaders of the revolution in the chaos of Taris Square. 700 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 2: I went to Democratic Republic of Congo and dealt with 701 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 2: sexual violence, supporting sexual violence survivors and doctors and nurses, 702 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,120 Speaker 2: and then we covered IHM a Great in America. And 703 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,120 Speaker 2: then the other chapter was all Russia, all the brave 704 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,920 Speaker 2: former Soviet dissidents who have now mostly passed away, and 705 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:13,840 Speaker 2: then the new generation of activists in Russia who Putin 706 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:18,360 Speaker 2: has crushed, but that's still alive. That's still there, that 707 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,120 Speaker 2: just put down, but they will rise up again. It's 708 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,759 Speaker 2: like holding back the sea. Is a people's movement, and 709 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 2: people's dignity cannot be stopped in the long run. 710 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,480 Speaker 1: In a sense, your career on one level has been 711 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 1: photographing people who are currently in power and at the 712 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: other level, it's photographing the people who will be the 713 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 1: power of the future. 714 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, And actually, the book The Power of the Future 715 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,400 Speaker 2: is a lovely way to put it, because I made 716 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 2: this book for the next generation of activists, because they 717 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 2: will read all these stories about how other people have 718 00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,279 Speaker 2: done it in the last hundred years and see the 719 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 2: struggles they went through and how they talk about it 720 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:08,960 Speaker 2: feels so lonely to stand up against authority, to stand 721 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,360 Speaker 2: up against the general consensus, and to dare to question 722 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,720 Speaker 2: the way our society works. It takes so much courage 723 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 2: and it's very lonely. And all the defenders that we 724 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 2: look to in history as inspirational figures of our time, 725 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 2: we forget how frightened they were, how vulnerable they were. 726 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,840 Speaker 2: So it will act as a guidebook for the next generation, 727 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:37,799 Speaker 2: particularly the young who I think clearly they care. They 728 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,360 Speaker 2: care about the well being of society, they care about 729 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:45,120 Speaker 2: our future, and without a doubt, members of that generation 730 00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:49,319 Speaker 2: will soon be in power. So if the book acts 731 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 2: as a guidebook to help them navigate the stormy paths ahead, 732 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:53,960 Speaker 2: then that will serve its purpose. 733 00:46:54,360 --> 00:47:00,160 Speaker 1: Platter, this is really an exhilarating conversation and in a 734 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,040 Speaker 1: number of directions I couldn't have imagined. I want to 735 00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,520 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me on news World. I want 736 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:07,920 Speaker 1: to mention to our listeners who either live in or 737 00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:13,440 Speaker 1: visit California, that you have a major exhibition entitled People 738 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:18,399 Speaker 1: Powerplatin at UTA artist Space in Los Angeles on view 739 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,160 Speaker 1: from May third to May twenty fifth, and that you 740 00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:26,239 Speaker 1: can find more information at Uta artistspace dot com. In 741 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,799 Speaker 1: addition to, of course this brand new terrific book, The Defenders. 742 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,319 Speaker 1: For those who like to learn more about your work 743 00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:37,600 Speaker 1: in general, they can visit your website at platinphoto dot com. 744 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,799 Speaker 1: And I really want to thank you for sharing from 745 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,279 Speaker 1: the heart, which is what I really felt today, that 746 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,359 Speaker 1: we were getting your heart, and it means a great 747 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,759 Speaker 1: deal to me to be able to learn from you 748 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,000 Speaker 1: and to hear of your life's work. 749 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,240 Speaker 2: I never thought I would have such a heartfelt, meaning 750 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,360 Speaker 2: conversation with Nut Gingrich when I was starting out in 751 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,160 Speaker 2: this game. And you are right in the center of history, 752 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,520 Speaker 2: and it's always a great pleasure to have a human 753 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:11,680 Speaker 2: interaction with someone that you've been aware of their presence 754 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:15,000 Speaker 2: for so long. So thank you for your curiosity for 755 00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,719 Speaker 2: using your platform to have these types of conversations, and 756 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,400 Speaker 2: I commend you for the work you're doing these days. 757 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:22,360 Speaker 2: It's really interesting. 758 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,239 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Platon. You can get a 759 00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,480 Speaker 1: link to buy his new book, The Defenders, Heroes of 760 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 1: the Fight for Global Human Rights on our show page 761 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:39,160 Speaker 1: at newtsworld dot com. Newts World is produced by Ganglisht 762 00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:43,680 Speaker 1: three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan. 763 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:48,400 Speaker 1: Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show 764 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,600 Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team 765 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,480 Speaker 1: at Ganlishtree sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope 766 00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,160 Speaker 1: you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with 767 00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,640 Speaker 1: five stars and give us a review so others can 768 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,120 Speaker 1: learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of neut 769 00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:10,640 Speaker 1: World consign up for my three freeweekly columns at gingrichthree 770 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:15,239 Speaker 1: sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is 771 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:15,839 Speaker 1: neut World.