1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Unaddiction the Podcast. My name is doctor Enzinga Harrison. 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: medicine and co founder and chief Medical officer of Eleanor Health. 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery. 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: have helped them along the way, and the formulas that 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time. 9 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,919 Speaker 1: Zach Clark is a mental health, wellness and addiction recovery 10 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: advocate who talked openly about his addiction and recovery in 11 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: season sixteen of ABC's The Bachelorette. In twenty twenty, as 12 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: founder and CEO of Release Recovery and the founding board 13 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: member of the Release Recovery Foundation, Zach is dedicated to 14 00:00:55,760 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: providing comprehensive, individualized care, specifically to folks and underserved communities 15 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: who may not be able to afford it. We touch 16 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: on so much in this conversation, but I really want 17 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: to emphasize Zach's emphasis on the need to humanize the 18 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: recovery process with a focus on hope, connection, and community. 19 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: A holistic approach that includes sleep, mindfulness, spirituality, food, financial planning, 20 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 1: and most importantly fun. Zach, welcome to the show. Super 21 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: excited to have you on the Unaddictioned Podcast. I'll give 22 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: you a heads of like what we try to do here. 23 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:37,199 Speaker 2: So I'm in Zinga. 24 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: I'm a physician, my specialties of psychiatry and addiction medicine. 25 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: And in January now, so going into almost six months ago, 26 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,559 Speaker 1: my first book came out. It's called Unaddictioned. Six mind 27 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, and so we 28 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: started this podcast to try to have those conversations. And 29 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: really what it's about is this idea that there are 30 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: an infinite number of paths into addiction, and so there 31 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: have to be an infinite number of paths to recovery, 32 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: and that path can be ever evolving and changing. And 33 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: so we're just talking to people who've had their own 34 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: experience with the hope that like maybe somebody listening will 35 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 1: be like, oh, I haven't tried that that could work 36 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 1: for me, or I hadn't thought this was possible for me, 37 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 1: but I see myself or hear myself and that person. 38 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 2: So maybe it is, and so it's just a conversation. 39 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 3: I love that, and I think my personal and professional experience, 40 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 3: I mean, I've seen I've seen it all work, and 41 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 3: I've seen it all not work, you know, and everything 42 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 3: in between. So I like that you talk about the 43 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 3: front end where it's like, you know, there's many many 44 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 3: ways to end up, where someone like me ends up 45 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 3: with a needle in my arm, but like, if that's 46 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 3: going to be the case, and there's got to be 47 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 3: some varying degrees of solutions to this whole. 48 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: Thing, so exactly, exactly, so I'll give you a heads up. 49 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 2: I almost never remember to do this. 50 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: So today is like go play the lottery, mark it 51 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: down in history day. At the end of the pod, 52 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you this question. So, un addiction 53 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: is a word that I'm made up, and it is 54 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: unlearned what you think you know about addiction. Undo the 55 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: stigma that's killing people, Uncover the conversations that could save 56 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: a life. So at the end of the pod, I'm 57 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: going to ask you if there's just one thing you 58 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: want to leave us with that you want people to 59 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: unlearn a stigma, to undo a conversation, to uncover what 60 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: is it? Okay, I see you thinking. Don't answer it now, 61 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: that's for the end, that's okay. Direction, right, So let's 62 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: just start with who is Zach Clark? 63 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's a complicated question. There's days when 64 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 3: I feel like an alien on this planet, you know 65 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 3: what I mean. I mean the short answers. I grew 66 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 3: up in South Jersey, right outside of Philly. Beautiful upbringing, 67 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 3: and then at you know, I started messing around with 68 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 3: drugs and alcohol in high school, which was probably at 69 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 3: the time, felt very normal to me and it was. 70 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 3: And my path from there to the age of twenty seven, 71 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 3: where I was like strung out on drugs in Canada 72 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 3: New Jersey was one that I think we're seeing more 73 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 3: and more in this country, you know, like that early 74 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 3: introduction for whatever reason. And I had a you know, 75 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 3: brain surgery in there that kind of fed up my use. 76 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 3: And at the end of the day, you know, I 77 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 3: was saved. I was saved at twenty seven years old, 78 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 3: and I ended up moving to New York City, where 79 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 3: I've been for the last thirteen years, and you know, 80 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 3: maintaining my sobriety and now I work in the field. 81 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 3: I own a behavioral healthcare company, so Released Recovery. We 82 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 3: have sixty SEMIDD beds, highly structured kind of high end 83 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 3: transitional living beds thround New York's city in Westchester County. 84 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 3: We have a clinic up in Westchester, which is obviously 85 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 3: great bringing in the clinical and the medical components in 86 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 3: this whole thing, which we both know is so so 87 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 3: so important, you know, And like I think at the 88 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 3: end of the day, like what I really am is 89 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 3: like I'm a community builder, you know, Like that's what 90 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 3: I try to do. I try to build community and 91 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 3: make sure that no one's left behind. And so this 92 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 3: intersection at Release what we believe in is obviously like 93 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 3: the people doing the work and combining that with really 94 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 3: really good, you know, clinical expertise and understanding. Like you 95 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 3: said at the beginning that there's going to be a 96 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 3: lot of different ways that people figure this thing out. 97 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 3: And I always laugh because it's like, what's a positive 98 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 3: outcome in our work. 99 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: You know, like, Okay, talk to me about this, Zach. 100 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 3: Well, I just think it's like, you know, look, I 101 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 3: can tell you my experience, right, I went to treatment 102 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 3: for four and a half months. 103 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 2: And what was treatment, Zach? 104 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: Because I don't want to make the assumption that people 105 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 1: listening know what you mean when you say. 106 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 3: Right, So I can be blunt. At twenty seven years old, 107 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 3: I was drinking around the clock. I had a needle 108 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,239 Speaker 3: in my arm, and I had a crackpipe in my mouth, 109 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 3: and I had no hope. And that's a guy that 110 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 3: was growing up in South Jersey and wanted for nothing. 111 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 3: It had a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful family and home and 112 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 3: the whole thing. You get it. So I went to 113 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 3: substance abuse treatment at a place called Karen in Pennsylvania. 114 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 3: So I did a month of impatient and I did 115 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 3: three and a half months of extended care, which basically 116 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 3: means like around the clock. I was in therapy, individual therapy, 117 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 3: group therapy, psychiatry, and they took great care of me, 118 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 3: you know, And like I always share, and I don't 119 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 3: know who your listeners are, but like for me, I 120 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 3: just remember even being sat down on day three and 121 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 3: then saying like we're going to put you on this 122 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 3: medication called subtext. You're going to be on this. It's 123 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 3: going to help you not feel so sick from the 124 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 3: opioid withdrawals. And then we're going to slowly tytrate you off. 125 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 3: And so my story, I would say anyone would look 126 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 3: at it and say it's a positive outcome. Because I 127 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 3: left that treatment center, I moved to New York. I 128 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 3: got dialed into a recovery community here, which I'm still 129 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 3: involved in to this day, for fun and for free 130 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 3: and outside any of my professional work, that's what I 131 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 3: do for myself. But the biggest thing I think I've 132 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 3: learned is just because I did it this way doesn't 133 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 3: mean that someone else has to do it this way. 134 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 3: And just because I live in absinence based existence and 135 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 3: I choose to not drink and not do drugs, you know, 136 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 3: is it a positive outcome if someone you know is 137 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 3: like me at twenty seven years old and now they 138 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 3: can occasionally, I don't know, drink a glass of wine, 139 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 3: Like I know that's not my reality, but it might 140 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 3: be someone else's I don't know. 141 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: So yeah, I think it's a super strong call out. 142 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: And you kind of said it at the top also, 143 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: you were like, I've seen a million things work, and 144 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: I've seen a million things not work. And I think 145 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: part of a million things not working is this idea 146 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: is like this is the only way it can work, 147 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: And so you have to do this even if it's 148 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: not working for you. And like you said, kind of 149 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: that that definition of what does a good outcome look like? 150 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 2: So I'm super interested. 151 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: Language really matters, and we spend some time on it 152 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: in the book talking about the way we talk about 153 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 1: addiction and two people with addiction and about people with addiction. 154 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: The name of your program is Release, So talk to 155 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,599 Speaker 1: me about that, says the psychiatrist. 156 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 3: I wish it was something. I wish it was something 157 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 3: to do this true story about the name companies. My 158 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 3: favorite band is a band called pro Jam, and my 159 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,839 Speaker 3: favorite song is a song called Release. That's it. 160 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 2: What is your favorite song? 161 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 3: Because it's a song I mean Eddie Bedder. It's a 162 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 3: song to his dad and it's a song about you know, 163 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 3: that relationship and my father and I have a very 164 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 3: special relationship and it's probably very different than the one 165 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 3: Eddie Vedder, who's the lead singer of pro Jam, had 166 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 3: with his dad. But like it just and there's a 167 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 3: line in that song that says, I'll ride the wave 168 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 3: where it takes me, you know, I'll hold heat, I'll 169 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 3: hold the pain release me. And so it's I just remember, 170 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 3: like listening to that song on repeat in early sobriety, 171 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 3: and here we are thirteen years later. 172 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,199 Speaker 1: So, yeah, it's beautiful. See I'm a psychiatrist. You were like, no, 173 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: it's just my favorite song. I'm like, no, no, We're 174 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: gonna get to why this. 175 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 2: That was beautiful. So you have a treatment for four months? 176 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 2: Do you mind? 177 00:09:58,120 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: And you can always tell me like yeah, I do. 178 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: My I know, I'm not going to answer that sharing 179 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: was there something that happened? What was the moment, like 180 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: how did you get to the point of saying I 181 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: want to and know how to reach out for help? 182 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 2: And then how did you know where to reach Yeah? 183 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 3: I mean I it's one you can ask me anything. 184 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 3: I mean, like, you know, my whole thing with any 185 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 3: podcast or interview I do is just like if we 186 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 3: help one person, we did our job. And I told 187 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 3: my story so much now that I feel like I 188 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 3: try not to make assumptions about what people know or 189 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 3: don't know. So my So, I had been to treatment 190 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 3: one time before for the thirty day and I had 191 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 3: that classic what I think what I believed to be 192 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 3: like classic first treatment experience where I went for thirty days. 193 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 3: I told all the counselors what they wanted to hear. 194 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 3: I was married at the time. We did a little 195 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 3: bit of family work, and I left that treatment center 196 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 3: and went right back to what I was doing. And 197 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 3: so about a year after that, I found myself, you know, 198 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 3: at my at my low point. You know, you talk 199 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 3: about the language that we use, and you know there's 200 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 3: all these clisic the rock bottoms of relapse, like all 201 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 3: these words that I think sometimes are these phrases that 202 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 3: I feel like kind of keep people drunk and high. 203 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 3: I mean, I just I just had so much shame, right, 204 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 3: Like I had some shame about the way that I 205 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 3: was living. And so what had happened is I'll never 206 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 3: forget it. We were at the Jersey Shore where it's 207 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 3: from my family vacations in the summer. It was late 208 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 3: August and there was a Hurricane Iris or tropicals from 209 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 3: coming through, and so I knew that I had to 210 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 3: leave the shore to go pick up because we were 211 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 3: going to get stuck down there, right And so I 212 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 3: like I kind of left my family drove up to 213 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 3: South Jersey to Camden, and that was kind of like 214 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 3: there was it was about a week's worth of time 215 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 3: or however long it was where I got a dui 216 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 3: and I got thrown into jail, and then I walked 217 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,599 Speaker 3: out of jail, and like, it's just just chaos. And 218 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 3: so the final straw was I broke into my dad's 219 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 3: office and I sole a check and I had filled 220 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 3: out the check to myself, and I went into Camden, 221 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 3: which is where I was kind of like running around 222 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 3: getting high and selling drugs and doing the whole thing. 223 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 3: And I went into the bank. And whenever I tell 224 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 3: my story, I start with this story because it's just 225 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 3: one of kindness. It's just like one of like I 226 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 3: always laugh, I do this work. And a psychiatrist didn't 227 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 3: save my life. A clinician didn't save my life, you know, 228 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 3: A sponsor didn't save my life. A bank teller did 229 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 3: A bank teller, right, And so what happened was I 230 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 3: walked into this bank and Ronda Jackson was my earth Angel, 231 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 3: was sitting behind the counter. And I gave Ronda this 232 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 3: check and she kind of looked at me and she smiled, 233 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 3: and I thought she was going to go get my money, 234 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 3: and I kind of sat around waiting for her to 235 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 3: go get the five thousand dollars that I had to 236 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 3: made the check out for and he kind of came 237 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 3: back into like one minute, and she had a couple 238 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 3: of choices in that moment. She could have called the cops, 239 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 3: you know, she could have told her manager. But what 240 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 3: she did is she called my dad, and my dad 241 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 3: happened to be in his office and picked up the 242 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 3: phone and drove down to the bank. And you know, 243 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 3: fifteen twenty minutes later, while I'm still kind of like 244 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 3: waiting for this money because I had no other options, right, like, 245 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 3: would either get this money or go go rob someone. 246 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 3: And so he came in the bank and put his 247 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 3: arm on my arm and said, so we're going home, 248 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 3: and then you know, that's the story, that's the chills, right, 249 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 3: And so we went home, and I was in Karen 250 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 3: a couple days later, and I haven't turned back. I mean, 251 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 3: and I'm just sitting in New York now and Karen's 252 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 3: gala is this week and I'm the chair of their 253 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,839 Speaker 3: New York Advisory Board and I'm on their board of trustees. 254 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 3: And it's just like so crazy to me what we're 255 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 3: able to accomplish. 256 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 4: So yeah, I love So it started with kindness, and 257 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 4: you never know when you'll be that person, right, like 258 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 4: people expect the doctor to do it. 259 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: People expect the psychiatrists to do it, people expect the 260 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: therapists to do it. And we don't always do it, 261 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: to be clear, But that Banker right, And this is 262 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: one of the central this is actually the central theme 263 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: of the book. An addiction is that compassion and that kindness. 264 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: And you said it earlier community, right. So one of 265 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: the things that I want us to unlearn is that 266 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: you have to cut people off for them to make 267 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: the decision to get better. 268 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 2: It's dangerous. 269 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: And one of the stigmas I want us to undo is, 270 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: like you said, you have to let people hit rock bottom, right, 271 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: because for a lot of people, the bottom rock is dead, 272 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: and we're not trying to wait for people to hit that. 273 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: And I think, like, you never know when you might 274 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: be the person that does that small act of kindness 275 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: that completely starts a new path. So thank you, Ronda. 276 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: So Rnda calls your dad. Dad comes and picks you up, 277 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: and so again the importance of this dad relationship. And 278 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: then we go into recovery. So we have this concept 279 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: in the book. It's called the magic formula. I started 280 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: with there are a million, you know, infinite paths in 281 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: and so there have to be infinite paths out. 282 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 2: And it's this idea. 283 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: Kind of the framework is like, there are biological risks 284 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: that you inherit. There are psychological things in childhood that 285 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: increase risk, there are social, cultural environmental things that increase risk, 286 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: and then as we go through life those repeat. Right, 287 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: So you had a brain surgery, which became another biological 288 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: risk factor for you. Psychologically, social, environmentally, you start hanging 289 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: out in Camden, like all of these all of these 290 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: things add on and so the magic formula is like, 291 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: look at your set of factors and what's meaningful to 292 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: you you and what brings purpose to your life and 293 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: the community you surround yourself with, and you make your 294 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: magic formula for recovery. And so can you talk to 295 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: us about what magic formula you initially came out of 296 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: Karen with and what your formula is today and if 297 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: that has changed over time? 298 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent. And I think just hearing you 299 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 3: talk about that, like, you know, for me, whenever I'm 300 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 3: working with our patients or our clients, I'm always amazing 301 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 3: how resilient they are, you know, the the adoption, the 302 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 3: sexual abuse, the things that have happened. The traumas that 303 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 3: have happened to these people that we work with on 304 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 3: a daily basis is far beyond any And I didn't 305 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 3: like I always kind of say, like I just love 306 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 3: the party. I mean that was just it was just 307 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 3: in my DNA and it sucked me up. And no, yes, 308 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 3: I think when I got to the brain tumor and 309 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 3: some of the other things, like I started to you know, 310 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 3: acquire some things that we're probably gonna make it a 311 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 3: little bit more challenging for me to get out of 312 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 3: the cycle without some real help. But I just I 313 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 3: love that you're like kind of hitting on that that 314 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,199 Speaker 3: there's all these different ways that we can get to 315 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 3: where we get like and it doesn't really matter. But 316 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 3: for me, I'm gonna try not and go my soapbox here, 317 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 3: like I. 318 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 2: Think, oh, soapboxes are welcome. 319 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,120 Speaker 3: Well, look, I mean I think treatment stinks. I think 320 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 3: we're doing ourselves like a major disservice. And you know, 321 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 3: for me, so much of what I needed when I 322 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 3: was going through the process was hope, you know. And 323 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 3: like there's so many of these places that I've toured thousands, 324 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 3: not own hundreds of treatments, thousands is that sets a 325 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 3: lot hundreds of treatment centers in our in our country, 326 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 3: and most of these places you walk in and you 327 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 3: feel like you're walking into like yeah, there's some decent 328 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 3: food and like you know, but like for the most part, 329 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 3: it's like I'm walking into the end of my life. 330 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 3: Don't feel it doesn't feel safe, it doesn't feel like 331 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 3: there's actually something that I'm gonna be able to look 332 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 3: forward to. Yes, And so for me, I'm grateful for 333 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 3: my four and a half months at Karen and Karen 334 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 3: I think historically is one of the better treatment centers, 335 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 3: you know, better treatment centers, and they take a very 336 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 3: kind of like abstinence based twelve step approach. They've gotten 337 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 3: into the medication as system treatment since since I was there, 338 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 3: and obviously opened their minds up a little bit. But 339 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 3: when I got out, I'll never forget the email, this 340 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 3: piece of paper, and it was kind of like, you know, 341 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 3: go to some of these meetings and meet some of 342 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 3: these people, you know, go see this psychiatrist. So I 343 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 3: was on davatroll for probably eight or nine months when 344 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 3: I got out of treatment, which was really helpful. But 345 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 3: my magic formula was like I'm going to try this thing, 346 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 3: and I'm going to prove everyone that, prove everyone wrong. 347 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 3: This is not gonna work for me. And so I 348 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 3: moved to New York City and I started just trying 349 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 3: to connect. It was that human connection, and I had 350 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,360 Speaker 3: to see it with my own two eyes that there 351 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 3: was more going on here than a bunch of people 352 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 3: hanging out in the church basement. There was more going 353 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 3: on here than me sitting in a therapist's office crying 354 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 3: my eyes out. And so early on it was all 355 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 3: about community, self reflection and actually doing the work. And 356 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 3: like there's this prayer you know in the rooms of 357 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 3: AA that I heard early on. It's called the set 358 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 3: aside prayer, and basically what they're saying is like, set 359 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 3: aside anything you think you know about recovery, this process, 360 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 3: the people you're going to meet, and keep an open mind. 361 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 3: And I was able to do that just long enough 362 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 3: where like this thing got me in, this way of 363 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 3: life got me. But then I started to incorporate some 364 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 3: of the like the holistic stuff, right, So I started 365 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 3: doing yoga, I started working out, I started eating healthy. 366 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 3: I started to prioritize my sleep. And that's the piece 367 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 3: of treatment where I think we're missing it. But then 368 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 3: I started to incorporate some of the like the holistic stuff, right. 369 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 3: So I started doing yoga, I started working out, I 370 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 3: started eating healthy. I started to prioritize my sleep. And 371 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 3: that's the piece of treatment where I think we're missing it. 372 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 3: You know, there's all this stuff going on right now 373 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 3: with coal plunders and saunas and your diet and your sleep, 374 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 3: And why are we not focusing on that stuff in treatment? 375 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 3: It's like I always yell about in high school, they 376 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 3: didn't ever set us down and give us like a 377 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 3: financial literacy class, like teach us the value of a dollar. Yeah, 378 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 3: And I'm like, why not in treatment are we not 379 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 3: like doing these things that we know are going to 380 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 3: help us have a better chance at recovering. So my 381 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 3: magic formula was like basically the community and the self 382 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 3: work and the healing and the therapy in conjunction with 383 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 3: this kind of like holistic approach of you know, mind, body, spirit. 384 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 3: If you will, I'm. 385 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: Giving you a megaphone for this soapbox because I'm I 386 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: don't know, I might accidentally nud you off. 387 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 2: We're like fighting to stand on top of the soapbox. 388 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 2: It's so true. 389 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: And starting with like you said community as your core, 390 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,719 Speaker 1: but you were like I needed some hope, and it 391 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: is so important you think about even just the physical 392 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,719 Speaker 1: spaces that we're sending people in to get help, and 393 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 1: like you go into a dreary, sad, old space where 394 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 1: you know the team is tired and the protocols are tired, 395 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: and like where is the sunshine, Where is the hope? 396 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: Where is that holistic attention to you as a person, 397 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: And like we say, like what percent of your time 398 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: do you actually spend in the office of a professional 399 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: in your life? A sliver and so we can't imagine 400 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: that's what it is. It has to be this entire life. 401 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: I'm gonna take a little bit of a it's not 402 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 1: non sequitur, but because it's like a little related. But 403 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 1: my youngest son just graduated from high school and this 404 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: is now three years ago. He was a sophomore and 405 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: a friend of mine is an education activist and she 406 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: always talks about centering the voice of the young people, 407 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,719 Speaker 1: like the kids in learning, how to make the educational 408 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,439 Speaker 1: system better. And so this is to your point, like 409 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: why are there not cold plunges and yoga and mindfulness 410 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: and meditation and reiki, like all of these and nutrition 411 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: and financial planning, like all of these things that we 412 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 1: know equip people to believe and start achieving more and 413 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,959 Speaker 1: have hope that there's something more. And so she was 414 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: just doing this lightweight survey of high school kids, and 415 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: so I asked my son. We're driving home, and I'm like, 416 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 1: what's the one thing the school system could change that 417 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: would increase the number of kids that graduate high school? 418 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: Make it a better experience for you? On the way, 419 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: I had like so many ideas about what he was 420 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: going to say, and he was like, the food needs 421 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: to be more delicious. And I was like, like, at 422 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 1: first I balked a little bit on the inside, but 423 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: the whole point of this is like hear the voice 424 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: of the person the system is supposedly serving, and I'm like, 425 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: tell me more about that. And he's like, when the 426 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: portions are too small and you're hungry and the food 427 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: is nasty and you don't want to eat it anyway, 428 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: and then you just feel like you're like slopping through 429 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: food out a jail. He was like, that. 430 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 2: Doesn't make me want to come to school. 431 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: And this is what you're saying, Like we need spaces 432 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: we need to think even beyond the traditional Vivatrol is amazing, Yes, 433 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: therapy we need it, of course, twelve step programs and 434 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: community love it, right, but like, what are the other 435 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: things that are so basic to just a good experience 436 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: to help people stay tethered in. 437 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 3: No, I mean rehabilitation, Like we are rehabilitating ourselves right, Like, yes, 438 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 3: that is what I like when you really think about 439 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 3: that word for me, And look, I understand that people 440 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 3: who come into treatment centers like I did are are broken, 441 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 3: and they're going to be lacking motivation and there's going 442 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 3: to be a period of time where they can't do 443 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 3: much of anything. But once we move past that initial 444 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 3: kind of like ICU moment, you know, really paying attention, 445 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 3: listening to what that person is saying and encouraging them 446 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 3: to if they walk ten steps one day, let's do 447 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 3: twenty tomorrow. You know. I think a lot of people 448 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 3: get well and are alone and then eventually they're back 449 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 3: to that old behavior because they're not actually doing it 450 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 3: with someone. Mm hmm. 451 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 2: Alone is super dangerous. 452 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: I mean I talk about this in a lot of 453 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: different contexts, just like through my professional and personal life. 454 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: But like neurobiologically speaking, a pack animals. Like, literally, you 455 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 1: look at that pathway in our brain that tells us 456 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: you need that to survive, and one of the natural 457 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: most strongest stimuli of that signal is nurturing and connection. 458 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: And so without that and just even going beyond addiction 459 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: and substance use disorders, just like health period, we actually 460 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: need connection and community. 461 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 2: So let's get out there. 462 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 3: That's why I always tell people, no, I mean, that's 463 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 3: why always tell people are trying to get sober, trying 464 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 3: to get I mean, like you have this built in 465 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 3: thing that not the normally normal people don't have a 466 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 3: place where they can just go and connect with people. 467 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 3: Like how cool is it that you have this community 468 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,439 Speaker 3: that you can tap into at any moment. You know, 469 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 3: obviously there's stigma around what that community might mean to 470 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 3: someone who's in early recovery and the label they're going 471 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 3: to put on themselves. But if they can get past that, 472 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 3: like it's I've met the coolest people and the smartest 473 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 3: people in the world in my recovery circles. 474 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. 475 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: So let's kind of like bring it down from this 476 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: conceptual like, Okay, we need community, we need connection, we 477 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: need holistic care. You kind of gave us a list 478 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: on holistic approaches, but like, talk to us about in 479 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: real life, like day to day what are you doing 480 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: that is intentionally keeping community in your life, because I 481 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: want people to be like, don't try that. 482 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm a runner. So the running 483 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 3: community is very similar to the recovery community. Inclusive, loving, kind, 484 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 3: goal oriented. That's a huge part of my daily life, 485 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,959 Speaker 3: like being in the center of the recovery community. I 486 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 3: still do therapy once a week. That's a huge that's 487 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 3: a huge thing for me. I've never I've never cheated 488 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 3: on that idea that it doesn't work. I'm still very 489 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 3: active in the in the fellowship that I found helpful 490 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 3: to me early on, and I'm I'm there the same 491 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 3: way I was there from day one, and I just 492 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 3: like it's worked for me. And and you know, there's 493 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 3: parts of that that you know, I hold close to myself. 494 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 3: But I'll say there's there are groups, and there are 495 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,360 Speaker 3: people out there where you can go and they don't 496 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 3: want to know anything about you other than that you 497 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 3: you know, don't want to drink and do drugs. And 498 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,719 Speaker 3: for me, that has been very beneficial. 499 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 1: You know, and then that I want to be I 500 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: want to call it by name if we can, Like, 501 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: is it a twelve step fellowship. 502 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 2: Where you are Yeah, we can, Yeah. 503 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 3: Just you know, don't have to. That's the other thing. No, 504 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 3: I mean, look, that's the other thing that I think, 505 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 3: Like it's twenty twenty four, and it's hard for me 506 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 3: because like for me, twelve step recovery is sacred and 507 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 3: I've never I've never. I mean you asked, so I'll 508 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 3: tell like it's sacred, you know, And there's a set 509 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 3: of traditions in those rooms that you know, I hold 510 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 3: very close to my heart. And so on one hand, 511 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 3: I want to scream at the top of my lungs 512 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 3: like how powerful my experience in those rooms have been. 513 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 3: And on the other hand, you know, I want to 514 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 3: protect what goes on there. And so it's it's kind 515 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 3: of this double edged thing where I've spent the last 516 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 3: thirteen years like navigating it to the best of my ability, 517 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 3: and then when I was thrown into the public eye, 518 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 3: I had to really think about, Okay, how do I 519 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 3: want to communicate my story and my experience to the world. 520 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 3: And I do the best I can. That's it. 521 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 2: You know, no, definitely hurt. 522 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: Okay, you were about to say something else before I interrupted. 523 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 3: No, So it's you know, it's therapy, it's it's it's 524 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 3: it's you know, it's my meetings, it's it's fitness and 525 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 3: the running community. And then obviously for me, what's a 526 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 3: little bit different is my work is rooted. So I work. 527 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 3: You know, we have eighty something employees that release recovery, 528 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,719 Speaker 3: you know, probably fifty at EMMA in recovery. You know, 529 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 3: I'm around folks every day who are who are new, 530 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 3: and so the thing that I think we oftentimes forget about. 531 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 3: So if I put my work and my job over here, 532 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 3: that's fine, right, But I think the two things that 533 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 3: maybe don't get enough airtime is one service, you know, 534 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 3: this whole idea that like giving back, right, and that 535 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 3: doesn't have to be in this recovery world. Go being 536 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 3: the homeless or volunteer with an organization, walk some dogs, pets, whatever. 537 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 2: But like, wherever your passion is. 538 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 3: Service is huge for me. And then yeah, spirituality, you know, 539 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 3: like I think prayer, meditation, some of the work we 540 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 3: can do there is really really powerful and oftentimes kind 541 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 3: of just brush to the side. So if I had 542 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 3: to say, it's like community service, spirituality, therapy, and then 543 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,239 Speaker 3: just having some fun. Man, Like this thing is not 544 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 3: that serious, Like we gets over to have fun. 545 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. I love it, especially that last 546 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: one on fun. So it reminds me. In one of 547 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: the earlier podcasts, talk to Jason Williams, who runs an 548 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: adventure recovery program down in Florida, that it's literally like 549 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: yah high adrenaline adventure is like fun, he said when 550 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: he was sharing his recovery story. 551 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 2: One of the. 552 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: Biggest barriers he had to the idea of recovery is 553 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: that he thought, how will I ever be able to 554 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: have fun again if I'm not drinking. 555 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's almost like you got to fool people into 556 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 3: it because like you hear the word fun when you're 557 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 3: five days sober, I'm like, that's yeah, that's horrible. You know. 558 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 3: It's like it's like so it's like we got to 559 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 3: try and make this thing look some way and for 560 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 3: people to come in and then get a guy like 561 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 3: me who's you. 562 00:30:54,480 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: Know, I will say fun runs through that exact same 563 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: neurobiological pathway as does nurturing, which is our survival pathway. 564 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 2: So like we literally need it. We literally need it neurobiologically. Okay, 565 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 2: time flies, this is amazing. 566 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: We're like already forty minutes in, which means we're getting 567 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: close to the end. Before I ask you the last question, 568 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: which I gave you a heads up on at the beginning, 569 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: but gave you no time to think through with us, 570 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: like my little trick, anything else you were hoping to 571 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: share when you came on today that you want to 572 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: make sure people walk away with. 573 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 3: I just appreciate what you're doing. I think for me 574 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 3: and I talked about this. We had our gala for 575 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 3: we have a nonprofit too, which you know basically just 576 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 3: raises money to help people go get treatment. It's that simple. 577 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 3: I'll send you some information on it. Yeah, I refoundation. 578 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 3: So literally, if you have someone that calls you in Canada, 579 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 3: like we're put and people in treatment and giving them 580 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 3: the same experience that I had. But we had our 581 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 3: gallo last weeks ago. I was thinking about, like, really, 582 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 3: what do I want to say to the world right now? 583 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 3: Like what do I want the world to hear? And 584 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 3: you know, it kind of just came to me that like, 585 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 3: and it probably wasn't an original thought because they never are. 586 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,959 Speaker 3: But like loneliness right now, I believe is the biggest 587 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 3: killer in our country and we don't want to acknowledge that. 588 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 3: And so when someone when there's like one of these 589 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 3: behavioral healthcare crisis is like an overdose or a death 590 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 3: by suicide, like those people, they're dying alone. And the 591 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 3: way that we combat that, truly is everything that we 592 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 3: talked about here today is like community and in stilling 593 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 3: hope and having fun. As cheesy as it sounds, like, 594 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 3: that's what life is all about. So that's it. Like 595 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 3: if you're listening to this and you're curious, or you're 596 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 3: scared of or you have old ideas around what you 597 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 3: think for recovery or mental health or any of this stuff, 598 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 3: means like they'll knock it before you try it, Like 599 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 3: keep an open mind. And if I can give you 600 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,479 Speaker 3: a little dose of inspiration. I mean, the last thirteen 601 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,239 Speaker 3: years of my life, I've been beautiful and I get 602 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 3: to speak to people like doctor Harrison or much smarter 603 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 3: than me and just try to make a little better place. 604 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 2: So I love it. I love it all right. So 605 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 2: we'll run into our closer. 606 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: I meant to say, and I forgot to say it 607 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: when you were talking. But I loved the way you 608 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: kind of got this light and smile on your face 609 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: when you mentioned your spirituality. 610 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 2: It was actually really beautiful. 611 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 1: So, running into our last question, if there's and it 612 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be one of each, it could just 613 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: be one. 614 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:48,959 Speaker 2: You can tell us whatever you want to tell us. 615 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: One thing you want people to unlearn that they think 616 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: they know about addiction or recovery, or one stigma that's 617 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: killing people that you want us to work hard to undo. 618 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: Or one conversation that people don't know how to have 619 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: or are afraid to have that you think if we 620 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: could just uncover that conversation, we would save lives. 621 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 2: What comes to mind? 622 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think there's two things that I 623 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 3: want to talk about here, because the last part, you know, 624 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 3: is really about the family members. I think the family members, 625 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 3: especially in our work, are delta really tough hand, you know, 626 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 3: and they oftentimes are left behind because like someone like me, 627 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 3: I go to treatment for four months, I get this 628 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 3: like college degree or this semester's worth of like therapy, 629 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 3: and they're like, well what about me? You know? And 630 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 3: so I think the one thing for the family members 631 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 3: that I would like to say is kind of like 632 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 3: hang in there and do your own work. And you know, 633 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,879 Speaker 3: like I think you alluded to it, like I'm never 634 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 3: going to tell a mom to put her kid on 635 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 3: the street, you know, like that's just not I'm not 636 00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 3: a parent. One and two like until you're putting that situation, 637 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 3: you don't really know how it feels. And so like 638 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 3: I have a lot of compassion for the fam members, 639 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 3: and I would just encourage them that if you're asking 640 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 3: your loved one to do this work, then maybe you 641 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,399 Speaker 3: should kind of take a look at look at it too, 642 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 3: and it might help you in some of your communication 643 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 3: and then you know, overall success of the family's recovery. 644 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 3: And then the second part is surround the thing that 645 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 3: I want, like my dream. And this is just like 646 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 3: over my years of experience, like the things that I've 647 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 3: heard over and over again, like how do I date 648 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 3: in sobriety? How do I have fun in sobriety? My 649 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 3: life's over, you know, like I have to hang out 650 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,280 Speaker 3: with these people that don't drink the rest of my life, 651 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 3: and how do I hang out with old friends? And 652 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 3: you know, my hope or the thing that I would 653 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 3: want to destigmatize. It's just the fact that like I 654 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,760 Speaker 3: believe our world is ready for this, Like I believe 655 00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 3: our world is moving towards a culture that really highlights 656 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 3: the benefits of not drinking and not doing drugs and 657 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 3: being sober and wellness and longevity and so like, the 658 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 3: only way I can really say it is we had 659 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,919 Speaker 3: that galo that I was talking to you about two 660 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 3: weeks ago, and we had it at a nightclub in 661 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 3: New York City at Tale Downtown, and we had seven 662 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 3: hundred people there and not everyone there was sober, and 663 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 3: there was alcohol being served. And you know, we were 664 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,879 Speaker 3: very clear about that upfront, because we want to show 665 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 3: people like myself who are in recovery that they can 666 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 3: walk into any room anywhere and feel a part of 667 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 3: regardless of whether they have a cost seller or not. 668 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: And that's yes, So yes, that brought me life. 669 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 2: I love that so much. 670 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 1: I talked to I can't remember because I get to 671 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: talk to a lot of people, which is amazing. I 672 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: think it was Derek Brown and he was like, you know, 673 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: bars need to be inclusive, Like you don't have to 674 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: drink if you come in the bar, there is a 675 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,320 Speaker 1: place for you in the bar if you don't drink. 676 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,359 Speaker 1: And I know that's like controversial because for some people 677 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: who won't be safe to walk in the bar, But 678 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: it's really that sense of belonging. 679 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 2: Like you said right, like you can be giving and 680 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 2: you can belong. 681 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 3: Giving me, giving the person jurisdiction and the ability to 682 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 3: make decisions like agency and be curious about this, like 683 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 3: there are absolutely people that are going to say, for 684 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 3: the rest of my life, I'm going to be uncomfortable 685 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 3: going into bars. For me, I needed that. I needed 686 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 3: to feel that energy despite the fact that I wasn't 687 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 3: drinking or doing drugs, you know, like I needed the 688 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 3: opposite experience. And like when my family said, hey, you're 689 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 3: coming home for Thanksgiving, like, what do you want us 690 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:44,799 Speaker 3: to do about the drinking? I said to them, drink 691 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 3: like you would normally drink, because I don't want to. 692 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,839 Speaker 3: I don't want to make myself feel any worse than 693 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 3: I already do. That now my decisions are impacting the 694 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 3: way that you're living, which might be different than the 695 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 3: next person who said, yeah, mom, I love it if 696 00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 3: you put the alcohol away, that's right, that's. 697 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: Both yeah, oh so good, so good. I appreciate the 698 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: shout out to the family. I'm just gonna drop a 699 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: support system here that I absolutely love. That's for families 700 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 1: because spot on so right and for families other loved 701 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,320 Speaker 1: ones support system. You do have your own recovery journey, 702 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 1: and so it's called We the Village dot co dot 703 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 1: com dot co We the Village. It is specifically for families. So, Zach, 704 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 1: this was amazing. 705 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 3: If you want to connect with me, it's Zach at 706 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 3: Release Recovery dot com. I answer my emails and we 707 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 3: have a team on that stuff. We live in a 708 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 3: social world, so if you want to hit us there, 709 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 3: it's ZW Clark on Instagram and then Release Recovery on Instagram. 710 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 3: You can dm us, you can meet whatever you're comfortable with. 711 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 3: H we will respond to you, and the website is 712 00:38:54,640 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 3: www dot Release Recovery dot com. And our promise that 713 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 3: we're going to respond to every phone call and message 714 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 3: we get because someone did that for us at one point. 715 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 3: So thank you. I'm very grateful for your time and 716 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 3: your questions and your thoughtfulness and just everything that you're 717 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,359 Speaker 3: doing to kind of allow people like me and other 718 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 3: professionals to be curious and do this work together. We're 719 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:17,839 Speaker 3: going to need it. 720 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:19,879 Speaker 2: Yeah. 721 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for tuning in, and if you 722 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: liked this episode, please check out my book on addiction, 723 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: Six mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, available 724 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:35,879 Speaker 1: at Barnes Andnoble, Bookshop, dot org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon, and. 725 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 2: Wherever books are sold. 726 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,279 Speaker 1: If you like to this episode, please share it with 727 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: someone you think may need to hear it. Also, please 728 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: subscribe to this podcast and leave a five star review 729 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,880 Speaker 1: that helps us reach any and everyone who may be 730 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 1: looking for support in the face of addiction.