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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Couric and this is next Question.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to this episode, every one of Katie plus one.

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Speaker 1: I have a special guest today who is going to

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Speaker 1: join me in interviewing Adam Kinsinger, and it is none

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Speaker 1: other than Ms. Mary Trump.

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Speaker 2: Hi Mary, Hey Katie, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm good. I'm really excited to have this conversation with

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Speaker 1: you because you and Adam have a lot in common

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Speaker 1: in some ways, don't you.

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Speaker 2: It's very surprising because as people can probably imagine, politically,

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Speaker 2: we probably have very little in common. But we've both

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Speaker 2: been through some experiences that have given us a chance

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Speaker 2: to see what it's like on the outside. And I'm

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Speaker 2: really looking forward to hearing what he has to say

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Speaker 2: about the main event, which is actually when you and I.

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Speaker 2: I think it might have been the first or second

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Speaker 2: time you and I.

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Speaker 1: Spoke after January sixth.

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Speaker 2: January sixth, twenty twenty one, but also family history, his

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Speaker 2: experiences with his family disinheriting him essentially because of his

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Speaker 2: political stance, and he has emerged as a fascinating figure

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Speaker 2: in American politics and as somebody who has had the

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Speaker 2: courage of his convictions. And I also am really appreciative

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Speaker 2: of his decision to stay in the fight, which is

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Speaker 2: also something hopefully we'll get into definitely.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's welcome Adam Kinzinger to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: You ready, all set? I'm very excited about this.

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Speaker 1: Adam Kinzinger, Welcome to the podcast, and I'd like to

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Speaker 1: introduce you to Mary Trump. Mary meet Adam, Adam meet Mary.

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Speaker 3: Hey, it's good to meet you.

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Speaker 2: It is a pleasure. How are you?

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Speaker 3: The pleasures all mine?

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Speaker 2: I'm great, Thanks and congratulations on the excellent book.

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Speaker 3: Thank you. I appreciate it. It was fun to write it,

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Speaker 3: and I'll probably never write a book again in my life.

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Speaker 2: So I's going to say it was fun.

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Speaker 3: Okay, it was okay, and it's fun to have it written.

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Speaker 2: That is the best part having it done.

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Speaker 1: Adam, your new book is called Renegade, Defending Democracy and

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Speaker 1: Liberty in our divided country. I can't think of a

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Speaker 1: book that is needed more than this right now, given

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Speaker 1: the state of affairs. But let me start by asking

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Speaker 1: you a pretty boring question, why why did you want

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Speaker 1: to write this book?

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Speaker 3: You know, it's funny because somebody I don't even remember

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Speaker 3: who it was, told me, h, what is it? They said,

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Speaker 3: like writing a book is an inherently kind of like

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Speaker 3: arrogant feeling experience because I'm like and I struggle with that,

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Speaker 3: like who would want to read? Why would I put

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Speaker 3: any of my details? But the reason I ended up

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Speaker 3: doing it is I realized that my story tells the

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Speaker 3: broader story. It tells the story of what's happened to

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Speaker 3: the Republican Party. You know, I talk about the things

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Speaker 3: I got wrong and the things I should have seen,

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Speaker 3: but I think it's important to be able to like, yes, Okay,

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Speaker 3: here's my story, but here's throughout the whole thing, like

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Speaker 3: what happened in some of these like really important points,

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Speaker 3: because I think the only way to come back from

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Speaker 3: this moment we're in, this division is to recognize the

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Speaker 3: problem and recognize frankly, how we got here so we

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Speaker 3: can push back against it.

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Speaker 1: You know, we thought that you and Mary would be

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Speaker 1: really interesting conversationalists because, as we said earlier when I

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Speaker 1: was introducing Mary to our listeners, you all actually have

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Speaker 1: a lot in common.

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I know the experience about the

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Speaker 2: letter you received from your family. Yes, and obviously the

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Speaker 2: circumstances were different, but I know what that feels like.

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Speaker 2: But also I just wanted to mention that my dad

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Speaker 2: was a pilot, and I didn't realize until I read

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Speaker 2: your book that you also were a pilot.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, my dad was in the National Guard and

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Speaker 2: he taught himself to fly when he was in college.

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Speaker 2: Well actually so his first plane was a Piper Cub

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Speaker 2: and then we had a Cherokee for a little bit.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, I thought, and he was of course a

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Speaker 2: professional pilot for twa in nineteen sixty four, so I

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Speaker 2: thought that was really cool. You used to fly your

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Speaker 2: your single edgend plane back and forth to work, which

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Speaker 2: is amazing. Everybody should be able to do that. And

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Speaker 2: of course your experience on January sixth, which I think

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Speaker 2: goes right to the heart of what a lot of

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Speaker 2: us experienced that several removes certainly, so, I honestly would

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Speaker 2: not have imagined that you and I would have that

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Speaker 2: much in common. And also I wanted to at the

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Speaker 2: very beginning, I'll thank you for your work in electing

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Speaker 2: pro democracy candidates. I have a pack that has exactly

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Speaker 2: the same mission. So it's it's fascinating and I've admired

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Speaker 2: your stance for a long time now, so it's always

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Speaker 2: nice when there's a little more context, you know.

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Speaker 3: And also I want to say thank you to you

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Speaker 3: because you've spoken out and you probably take an extra

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Speaker 3: level of vitriol that even I don't and I appreciate that.

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Speaker 3: And and yeah, you know, it's funny you mentioned the

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Speaker 3: family letter. Here's the crazy thing. So I would go

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Speaker 3: see my folks probably once a month, right drive down.

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Speaker 3: They lived a couple hours south of me, and I

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Speaker 3: happened to show up on a day this letter showed

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Speaker 3: up to their house addressed to me. It's like I

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Speaker 3: was there when the mailman came, and I'm like, all right,

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Speaker 3: this is you know, in politics, sometimes get weird letters

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Speaker 3: that are certain that are since certified, and but I

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Speaker 3: saw the return names and I'm like, there's like, I

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Speaker 3: think ten or twelve of them on it. And I

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Speaker 3: was like, oh, well, that's family. This has got to

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Speaker 3: be wonderful. So I opened this up and the first

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Speaker 3: two words were oh my, and I remember thinking, oh,

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Speaker 3: they're going to say, oh my, oh proud we are

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Speaker 3: of what you've done, and it says what a disappointment

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Speaker 3: you are to us into God. And I remember just

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Speaker 3: kind of like kind of blinking and like, wait, did

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Speaker 3: it what? And I read this thing and I'm going

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Speaker 3: to just you can find the letter out there.

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Speaker 1: Just you know, this letter is unbelievable, Adam. I mean

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Speaker 1: when you read the whole thing.

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Speaker 3: It's stunning. It's stunning, It is.

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Speaker 1: So intense. Can I read a few lines? Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: just going to start from the beginning, Adam. Oh my,

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Speaker 1: what a disappointment you are to us and to God.

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Speaker 1: We were once so proud of your accomplishments. Instead, you

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Speaker 1: go against your Christian principles and join the devil's army,

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Speaker 1: Democrats and the fake news media. How do you call

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Speaker 1: yourself a Christian when you join the devil's army believing

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Speaker 1: an abortion. We thought you were smart enough to see

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Speaker 1: how the left is brainwashing so many so called good people,

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Speaker 1: including yourself and many other GOP members. You have even

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Speaker 1: fallen for their socialism ideals. So so sad. President Trump

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Speaker 1: is not perfect, but neither are you or any of

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Speaker 1: us for that matter. It's not for us to judge

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Speaker 1: or to be judge. But he is a Christian. If

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Speaker 1: God can forgive and use King David in the Bible,

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Speaker 1: he can do the same with President Trump. Just let

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Speaker 1: me read a couple of more lines for your information.

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Speaker 1: Many more family members feel the same way as we do.

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Speaker 1: They just didn't have the courage to sign our letter

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Speaker 1: or write their own letter, not us. We are thoroughly

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Speaker 1: disgusted with you, and by the way, we're calling for

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Speaker 1: your removal from office. I have received numerous calls covering

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Speaker 1: your actions and egregious behavior towards our President of the

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Speaker 1: United States, Donald J. Trump. I mean, when you read that,

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Speaker 1: were you surprised or did you think, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: I could probably see this coming.

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Speaker 3: I was actually really surprised because I you know, I

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Speaker 3: certainly most of my family doesn't agree with what I did.

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Speaker 3: And you know, my parents were good because they understood

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Speaker 3: where I was coming from, and they were never like

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Speaker 3: hardcore MAGA people anyway. And you know my brother and sister.

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Speaker 3: But I knew a lot of the extended family was upset,

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Speaker 3: but I never would have expected that they could do

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Speaker 3: anything like that. I mean, you think about the fact

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Speaker 3: that you know, Donald Trump, I think even said once

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Speaker 3: that he's never asked for forgiveness, He's never had to

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Speaker 3: ask for forgiveness, and yet they're convinced he's a Christian

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Speaker 3: putting out the Plan of Salvation, which, by the way,

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Speaker 3: forgiveness is the very first thing in the Plan of Salvation,

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Speaker 3: and it just so Yeah, I was blown away. And

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Speaker 3: it goes to show what I call the maga brainworms

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Speaker 3: that exist and how they have infected these members of

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Speaker 3: my family.

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Speaker 1: It was incredible when you read that, Mary, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I was curious this position that Donald Trump is such

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Speaker 1: a man of faith. Mary, when you heard that, I

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Speaker 1: wondered what went through your mind.

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Speaker 2: Well, I actually left and Adam, I wasn't laughing at

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Speaker 2: the content of the letter because it's I can well

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Speaker 2: actually sorry, I kind of imagine how hurtful it was,

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Speaker 2: whether you were close with these people or not through

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Speaker 2: your family, and they went public with it, and it

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Speaker 2: was quite graceful and un Christian, if I could use

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Speaker 2: that term. But it just shows the level of delusion

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Speaker 2: that's operative on the far right right now, which I'm

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Speaker 2: sorry to say, seems to be almost the entirety of

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Speaker 2: the Republican Party, because we just saw what happened in

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Speaker 2: the House of Representatives a couple of weeks ago with

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Speaker 2: the speakership vote. But to claim that Donald Trump, of

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Speaker 2: all people is and I'm sure they would call him

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Speaker 2: an imperfect vessel, because that's just the shortcut for somebody.

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Speaker 2: We don't agree with it all, but he's going to

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Speaker 2: ram through what we want. Is just so wrong on

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Speaker 2: every level. I have never and I just want to

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Speaker 2: step back a second and say, I don't care what

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Speaker 2: Donald believes or doesn't believe. It should be irrelevant. This

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Speaker 2: is the United States of America. However, the cynicism of

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Speaker 2: using other people's faith in the way that he does

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Speaker 2: when he himself believes nothing. There is nobody, no entity

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Speaker 2: more important in Donald Trump's universe than he is to himself.

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Speaker 2: So I just want to be clear about what they

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Speaker 2: were acted. Was it the stance you took after this

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Speaker 2: alleged man of God tried to overturn his own government?

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Speaker 2: Is that what they objected to? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I think this came in slightly after I voted to

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Speaker 3: impeach and yeah, and that was that was their government.

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Speaker 1: It was January eighth, twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 3: What's it. Yeah, Yeah, So I don't even think that

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Speaker 3: by that point, I don't think i'd even voted to

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Speaker 3: impeach him. Then that was just me speaking out, you know,

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Speaker 3: against it, and of course I was. I was active

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Speaker 3: before January sixth and calling that stuff out. But again

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Speaker 3: it's it's Christian nationalism first off, and that has no

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Speaker 3: place in government. But Christianity has been replaced by Christian nationalism.

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Speaker 3: And I say, it's no different. That is the kind

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Speaker 3: of thing that if you were in Afghanistan and there

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Speaker 3: was somebody, you know, fighting against the Taliban, would receive

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Speaker 3: from a Taliban supporting family, and there's no difference in that.

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Speaker 3: And it's just you know it too. People ask me like,

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Speaker 3: how does it make you feel? I'm like, over the

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Speaker 3: last ten months, I've had to take inventory with the

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Speaker 3: impact that this stuff has had, and it's cumulatively had

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Speaker 3: an effect. It's just when you're in the middle of combat,

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Speaker 3: you don't have PTSD detil after. But I look at

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Speaker 3: it and I'm just like, how miserable their life must

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Speaker 3: be to be living with that kind of anger and hate.

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Speaker 3: And I have no desire, I guess I for my sake,

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Speaker 3: I forgive them, but I have no desire to have

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Speaker 3: any kind of a you know, a come to like,

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Speaker 3: let's let's come to terms party. They can never talk

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Speaker 3: to me again, as far as I care.

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Speaker 1: Your co Pilot in a Rock also sent you a

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Speaker 1: text that said I'm ashamed to have ever served with you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I mean that's if you think about

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Speaker 3: the bonds of war. That's like, that's deeper than family.

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Speaker 3: I mean, And for him to send that, and I

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Speaker 3: just remember, I think I replied to him, and I

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Speaker 3: said something to the extent of like, how is it

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Speaker 3: that you woke up this morning and you were so

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Speaker 3: eaten up by this anger against me that you would

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Speaker 3: send me this text message? And like, do you think

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Speaker 3: that somehow I would have gotten it and been like, oh,

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Speaker 3: you're right, I repent. No, it would just make me mad.

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Speaker 3: But you had to feel like it made you feel

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Speaker 3: better to send it. And so I blocked him and

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Speaker 3: never talked to him again.

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Speaker 1: I was going to ask what happened, And Mary, I'm curious,

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Speaker 1: just before we move on to really other aspects of

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Speaker 1: the book, have you ever gotten a letter like that?

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Speaker 1: Have you been criticized either publicly or privately by members

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Speaker 1: of the Trump family, and can you tell us about

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Speaker 1: that experience?

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Speaker 2: It actually wasn't very dramatic. In some ways, there are Trumps.

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Speaker 2: So they sued me, and they continued to sue me.

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Speaker 2: But like our love language, uh is lawsuits. But you know,

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Speaker 2: we had been estranged for a really long time because

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Speaker 2: I got disinherited. As you know, it's ours to show

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Speaker 2: up to Christmas after that has happened, and it was

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Speaker 2: certainly after both of my grandparents had died. There was

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Speaker 2: sort of no need. But I did try tomend fences

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Speaker 2: with my aunt mary Anne, which is why I showed

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Speaker 2: up at the White House in April of twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 2: But I didn't really have any contact with them, and

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Speaker 2: as you can imagine, these aren't people with whom one

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Speaker 2: has deep emotional bonds, which is why, Adam, I just

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Speaker 2: want to say really quickly, I felt such pain about

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Speaker 2: your co pilot because I would find that much more wounding,

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Speaker 2: yeah than if my whatever my family would have to

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Speaker 2: say about me. So no, my family quite honestly has

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Speaker 2: been the leadst of my worries over the last few years.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk a little, Adam about your childhood, because it

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Speaker 1: sounds like you had a wonderful upbringing in every sense

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Speaker 1: of the word. Can you describe what it was like

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Speaker 1: to be Adam Kinzinger as a little boy?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's great you know, looking back on it,

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Speaker 3: you know, I know I live in Texas, and uh

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Speaker 3: so I kind of like missed the Midwest. When you leave,

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Speaker 3: you kind of realize what you had. And you know,

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Speaker 3: Midwest it's great people. I was raised with a great

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Speaker 3: mom and dad, great brother and sister, right like your

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Speaker 3: middle middle class family. My dad ran a homeless shelter

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Speaker 3: and my mom's a public school teacher. And you know,

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Speaker 3: also it was that life. We we were initially in

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Speaker 3: a pretty strict religious church, religious background, which I could

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Speaker 3: talk more about, but yeah, I would say, you know,

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Speaker 3: just just a great childhood. At six years old, I

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Speaker 3: started to taking interest in politics, which is weird.

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Speaker 2: And how did that happen?

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Speaker 3: You know, because the press or something. No, it was

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Speaker 3: it was the eighties and a guy was running for mayor,

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Speaker 3: John Lewis of Jacksonville, Florida. We lived there for a

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Speaker 3: few years, and uh he had hot painkyard science because

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Speaker 3: it was the eighties and the hot pink was a thing,

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Speaker 3: and I was just kind of obsessed with that fanfare

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Speaker 3: of it. But that led to it as I got

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Speaker 3: older and could understand more or understanding what politics was,

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Speaker 3: and it just was like, I don't know, service in

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Speaker 3: politics was always just something I was interested in. But

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Speaker 3: I went through a very rebellious period in high school

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Speaker 3: and college. Failed out of college because I got too

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Speaker 3: involved in my fraternity. I got a point eight in

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Speaker 3: school one semester, which is you have to really try

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Speaker 3: to get a point oh eight, by the way it

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Speaker 3: is it is. And that allowed me then to kind

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Speaker 3: of really frankly get kicked out of college and spend

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Speaker 3: some time taking inventory. And then I got accepted back

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Speaker 3: and did well. But yeah, it was it was an

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Speaker 3: interesting time. But yeah, great childhood and I think has

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Speaker 3: led to a lot of the you know, as the

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Speaker 3: church would always say, it's like, do the right thing,

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Speaker 3: it's just most of them actually didn't. But it stuck

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Speaker 3: with me to do the right thing.

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Speaker 1: A public school teacher is a mom and a father

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Speaker 1: who I know was a businessman and then ultimately ran

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Speaker 1: a homeless shelter. It seems like that would be the

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Speaker 1: makings of a democrat. I'm not a Republican. So was

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Speaker 1: it your religious upbringing that that sort of imbued more

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Speaker 1: conservative values?

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Speaker 3: I guess so it's you know, my parents were Republicans

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Speaker 3: as well, and I actually I would say I would

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Speaker 3: put my dad in the line of like the compassionate

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Speaker 3: conservatism before it became uncool to say. And you know,

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Speaker 3: it's this idea that we do care about the down

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Speaker 3: and out and the best thing to do is to

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Speaker 3: help them have a hand up and to make their

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Speaker 3: life better. And so I think it was a what

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Speaker 3: I would actually consider actual conservatism and not this like

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Speaker 3: angry cut mean, you know division. It would be like

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Speaker 3: a real compassion for people. And so I think that's

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Speaker 3: where a lot of it came from. But certainly the religion,

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Speaker 3: the religious background. I mean, you couldn't be a Democrat

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Speaker 3: and be an independent fundamental Baptist. I mean, you'd be

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Speaker 3: kicked out of the church.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about your church. I don't really know much

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Speaker 1: about fundamental Baptists.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's it was so it's the last type

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Speaker 3: of church that still does the no drinking, no dancing,

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Speaker 3: no smoking, no movies, no rock music. Right, Oh, like footloose,

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Speaker 3: We like it's exactly, it's Footloose, That's who it is.

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Speaker 3: And uh so that was me and that lasted for

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Speaker 3: I don't know, i'd say that went until probably college.

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Speaker 3: I never followed a lot of those I was drinking

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Speaker 3: pretty young, unfortunately, and I think that was part of

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Speaker 3: a rebellious streak, but yeah, it was just it's one

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Speaker 3: of those where you kind of are taught everything is

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Speaker 3: black and white. You see this, you see this in

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Speaker 3: my relative's letter. Frankly, that's what you're seeing. But that

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Speaker 3: also helped me when I started to kind of challenge

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Speaker 3: what I believed and challenge the things I thought. It

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Speaker 3: actually helped me to open a lot more up in

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Speaker 3: my light. And I think it's probably a good reason

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Speaker 3: why I'm here and why I'm able to say, like,

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Speaker 3: the Republican Party is wrong and it doesn't believe in anything. Honestly,

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Speaker 3: I think that process of kind of leaving that church

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Speaker 3: I consider myself now just like Protestant non denominational, and

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Speaker 3: the process of leaving that church I think has helped

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Speaker 3: in a lot more ways than just that.

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Speaker 1: After this, Adam on what he got wrong, what he's learned,

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Speaker 1: and how more Republicans can have a little more self reflection.

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Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter every morning with a

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00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,679
Speaker 1: breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and

349
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Speaker 1: wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter

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Speaker 1: Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. Now

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Speaker 1: more of my conversation with Adam Kinzinger and my plus

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Speaker 1: one Mary Trump.

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Speaker 2: Mary.

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Speaker 1: One thing I was struck by is Adam's very honest

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Speaker 1: about his own sort of flaws and failings and his

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Speaker 1: own quite frankly big ego. And it seems like that

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Speaker 1: ego was one of the things that motivated you to

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Speaker 1: run for office after serving in a rock. Can you

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Speaker 1: explain that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So listen, if somebody, if a politician tells you

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Speaker 3: they don't have an ego, they're lying or they're not

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Speaker 3: going to win. I mean, that's just a fact. And

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Speaker 3: because you have to. You know, when I ran for Congress,

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Speaker 3: I basically said to seven hundred thousand people that have

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Speaker 3: all of you, I'm the best. You gotta believe it.

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Speaker 3: And so, you know, I was in Iraq and I remember,

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Speaker 3: you know, coming back from that and just thinking, you know,

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Speaker 3: I defended the country on the outside, I want to

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Speaker 3: defend it now on the inside thirty two or thirty yeah,

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Speaker 3: thirty two years old, thinking that you know, people would

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Speaker 3: want to elect me and put me in Congress. They

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Speaker 3: ultimately did. And uh, but you you when you start

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Speaker 3: tasting fame. And by the way, politics is the new Hollywood,

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Speaker 3: because now you can actually become famous. You can guarantee

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Speaker 3: you'll become famous, and you can do it easier than

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Speaker 3: you can on Hollywood. All you got to do is

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Speaker 3: tweet something astronomically crazy and the world will know your name.

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Speaker 3: And so when I started to get a taste for

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Speaker 3: that fame. When I was running, I was only the

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Speaker 3: second post nine to eleven veteran to get into Congress.

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Speaker 3: You know, I was young. A lot of attention and

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Speaker 3: that becomes addictive, and you know, you start getting on

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Speaker 3: the national TV and people will text you and you're like,

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Speaker 3: oh my gosh, I'm known. Somebody saw me the airport. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm the man. Somebody saw me in the important they

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Speaker 3: knew who I was, you know, and uh, but it's

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Speaker 3: a reality that Look, I think Donald Trump is that

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Speaker 3: he's addicted to the fame and the attention as well.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, ego plays a lot. Now, I'll just say

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Speaker 3: also quickly on that. The one thing that I think

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Speaker 3: stuck with me from the war. From that, and as

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Speaker 3: part of the reason that you know I took the

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Speaker 3: stand I did, is I remember thinking, okay, if I'm

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Speaker 3: going to send young people to die for the country,

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Speaker 3: which I will, you know, as a member of Congress.

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Speaker 3: And I'm hawkish too. So if I'm going to send

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Speaker 3: people to die for this country, I have to be

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Speaker 3: willing to sacrifice this job for the country, because how

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Speaker 3: can I ask an eighteen year old to give up

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Speaker 3: their life, which is the obviously ultimate sacrifice, if I'm

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Speaker 3: not willing to give up a one hundred and seventy

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Speaker 3: four thousand dollars a year job with a powerful title.

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Speaker 3: And that stuck with me. You know, I thought it

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Speaker 3: would be like maybe some vote on social security reform

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Speaker 3: or some I didn't think it would be actually defending democracy.

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Speaker 3: But that stuck with me.

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Speaker 1: Is that what you think mere attracted your uncle to

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Speaker 1: all of this? I mean, he was already famous, he

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Speaker 1: was already you know, nationally known. Was this just fame

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Speaker 1: on steroids for him? You think?

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Speaker 2: You know, I think I differ with with some people

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Speaker 2: about this.

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Speaker 3: I didn't.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that Donald intended to run with any

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Speaker 2: level of seriousness. Yes, he'd run before, and it was

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Speaker 2: always branding. And he always knew because this is one

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Speaker 2: of his few legitimate skills. He always knew where the

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Speaker 2: line was and when to pull back, because he could

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Speaker 2: never be seen to be losing, right, he had to

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Speaker 2: take control of the narrative and then suddenly, and I

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Speaker 2: think part of the reason he probably didn't take it

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Speaker 2: seriously is because like me and the rest of my

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Speaker 2: family were New Yorkers, and everybody in New York knows

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Speaker 2: that he's a total loser. So he saw how the

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Speaker 2: rest of the country or large large pieces of the

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Speaker 2: rest of the country thought about him, which was very different.

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Speaker 2: And he starts winning, and he starts winning primaries, and

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Speaker 2: he starts getting more support and worse. And I think

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Speaker 2: this is one of the reasons we're here now, because

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Speaker 2: he's taught this lesson to many in the Republican Party.

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Speaker 2: He started pushing the envelope and realizing he could get

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Speaker 2: away with anything. When he realized that he was getting

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Speaker 2: traction and could get the nomination, I think that it

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Speaker 2: was about winning, not about being the person with the

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Speaker 2: power and doing the job. He wanted the person with

436
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,880
Speaker 2: the power to wield it and get money, because it's

437
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,360
Speaker 2: always about money. So, Adam, I'm curious if that's been

438
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,640
Speaker 2: your experience with what seems to be this incredibly swift

439
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,119
Speaker 2: transformation of the party that nobody on that side of

440
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 2: the aisle feels like they need to play by any

441
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 2: rules anymore, and they keep getting rewarded for it.

442
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, rules are for suckers. And you know, if you

443
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 3: think about what you said about Trump, I think is

444
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 3: one hundred percent right, because it's probably got to be

445
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 3: funny for you to if I just call him Trump

446
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 3: because you're like, I'm Trump too. But anyway, Donald's.

447
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 2: Works too because he hates being called Donald by his

448
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:08,920
Speaker 2: support in it?

449
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 3: Does he really yes, oh yes, okay, perfect, and I'll

450
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,360
Speaker 3: call Donald but he I think he just wanted to run,

451
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 3: to be crazy and you know, to brand, like you said,

452
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 3: and he accidentally got in front of a wave YEP,

453
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 3: which was GOP wanted to break the system. And by

454
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 3: the way, conversely, I think that the contrary not yet,

455
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 3: but by twenty twenty eight is actually ready for a

456
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 3: healer to come along, and they won't know it until

457
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 3: that healer basically runs and wins, because you always see

458
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 3: that in hindsight. But yeah, I think, Look, they used

459
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 3: to be people that went into Congress, went in for

460
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 3: the purpose of passing legislation, right of actually achieving things.

461
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,679
Speaker 3: You don't see that anymore because passing legislation. If I

462
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 3: would run and say all the great things I did

463
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 3: for my district, that didn't matter anymore. What mattered was

464
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 3: how often I was on Fox News, how angry I was,

465
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 3: how much I took on the Democrats. And because it's

466
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 3: because the new currency is not accomplishments. The new currency

467
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 3: is fame and anger. And so yes, if you play

468
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 3: by the rules, and if you say, like I talk

469
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 3: about fire, right, and it's one of the things I

470
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 3: admit is we all played with fire a little bit.

471
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 3: And some of that is the anger, the fear, the division,

472
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 3: and every leader can do it, but you're supposed to

473
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 3: like keep that fire contained and then put it out

474
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 3: at certain times. Right.

475
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 1: But you did fall for that initially. Yeah, didn't you

476
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 1: talk about how you made a lot of mistakes and

477
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: you kind of went down that road before you self corrected. Yeah,

478
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 1: but you were one of the very few people who

479
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 1: self corrected.

480
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's because I mean, look, it's I didn't

481
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 3: play with the fire as much as other people did

482
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 3: because I always still saw, like, okay, I'm going to

483
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 3: be judged by history here, right, And that was important

484
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,679
Speaker 3: to me, but I did play with it. And a

485
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 3: huge problem with Citizens United the fundraising right, we're becoming

486
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 3: an oligarchy in this country. Let's just be clear about that.

487
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 3: And so everybody, now, if you're a regular person that

488
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 3: wants to run for Congress, you've got to raise a

489
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 3: ton of money. You can't raise money on optimism. I can't, honestly,

490
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 3: if I send out an email that says I want

491
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 3: to fix the road next door, or I want to

492
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 3: bring the country together, you're not going to raise money.

493
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 3: You will raise money if you say that Nancy Pelosi

494
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,919
Speaker 3: wants to kill your family. Because listen, no matter how

495
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 3: much money you make or don't make, if I convince

496
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 3: you that I'm the only thing that can stand between

497
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 3: you and literally your family's death, which a lot of

498
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 3: people believe, you'll give me anything, including your social Security check.

499
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 3: And so that's what's happened. People have just gone off

500
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 3: the rails because now it's a dopamine addiction. Right, you

501
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 3: do a drug, you got to do more of the

502
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 3: drug the next time and the next time, and that

503
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 3: drug right now is fear and anger for people.

504
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 1: Why do you think so few people like you in

505
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: the Republican Party. Adam said, no, mos was it the dopamine?

506
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,479
Speaker 1: Was it the addiction to power? Was it saying that,

507
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 1: you know, I've got a dance with the one who

508
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 1: brought me or whatever it is. I mean, I know

509
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: you talk about Lindsey Graham in the book. I know

510
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 1: you talk about Ted Cruz in the book. And you know,

511
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: I just interviewed the author, McKay Coppins of a book

512
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: about Mitt Romney, and I feel like there's so many

513
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 1: parallels between you and Mitt Romney. Did you two ever

514
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: talk about this?

515
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 3: No, we actually text on occasion, but not really about this.

516
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 3: It just kind of like real quick text. He's not

517
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 3: a big Texter, but I am. And but I yeah.

518
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 3: I mean I think it's that it's like everybody in politics,

519
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 3: and I'm not saying this discouraged any excuse, but everybody

520
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,880
Speaker 3: in politics you got to play with compromise a little bit, right,

521
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 3: and you know you're kind of figuring this out, and

522
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 3: what happens and what happened with Donald is everybody started

523
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 3: to say, Okay, well he's the president. I'll accept this,

524
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 3: and I'll do that. And eventually when you turn if

525
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 3: you're going to turn against him, you have to accept

526
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 3: the fact that you did things to enable him because

527
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 3: by sheer survival, still you're still there. And it's like

528
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 3: the sunken cost thing. So in Vietnam, you know we

529
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,439
Speaker 3: lost when we lost ten thousand men, how come we

530
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 3: didn't leave Vietnam? Well, because we already lost ten thousand men,

531
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 3: how can we leave now? Right? So we stayed till

532
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 3: we lost fifty thousand. Well, that's the problem is once

533
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 3: you and Kevin McCarthy's a great example this, once you

534
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 3: start giving away a piece of your soul, you eventually

535
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 3: have to say the last seven years I've been actually

536
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 3: a huge sellout to then turn and it's just much

537
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 3: easier to convince yourself that, Look, I can't make a difference.

538
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 3: I mean, look at Kinsinger and Cheney, they both got sniped.

539
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,639
Speaker 3: Why would I put my head out? Well, it's true,

540
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 3: but when nobody puts their head up, ever, the ones

541
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 3: that do get sniped.

542
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 2: I just want to add something to that question, because

543
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 2: you talk about how you did not vote for Donald

544
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: in twenty sixteen, but you did vote for him twenty twenty,

545
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: which is fascinating to me.

546
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 3: I know I'm the only one in America that did that,

547
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 3: by the.

548
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 2: Way, but in the way you explained it, it makes perfect

549
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 2: sense because we're hearing now that a lot of senators

550
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 2: didn't vote to impeach him or convict him in the

551
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,120
Speaker 2: Senate because they were afraid of retaliation. And I don't

552
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 2: think you use this phrase explicitly, but there's a certain

553
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 2: level of peer pressure as well, and knowing that with

554
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 2: somebody like Donald you're all in or you're all out,

555
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 2: there's no you can agree with him sometimes and disagree

556
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 2: with him. So I'm very curious though, why for more people,

557
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 2: January sixth wasn't the moment he lost the election, no

558
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 2: matter how much he wanted to lie about it, he

559
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 2: incited a violent insurrection against his own government, placing you,

560
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 2: your staff and the staff of everybody else in that building,

561
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 2: all of your colleagues at risk. People are calling to

562
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 2: hang Mike Pence. And two days later, three days later,

563
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 2: I don't remember what it was a very short period

564
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 2: of time.

565
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, Mary, it was the moment for

566
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: a moment, right, it.

567
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 2: Was the final off round and the best and clearest one.

568
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 3: What happened, Well, look, so I'll say you know, on

569
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 3: voting the second time for him. I had experienced four

570
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 3: years of everybody being like, you never voted for Trump,

571
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 3: you know, you're a pos and all this, and I

572
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 3: just basically.

573
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: Who was saying that your constituents are your colleagues.

574
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the constituents. The colleagues didn't care, but and

575
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 3: so you do with Then I was just finally like, okay,

576
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna lie. So I'm like, I'll vote for him.

577
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 3: I didn't do it enthusiastically, but I did it so

578
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 3: I didn't have to deal with what I just dealt

579
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 3: with for four years. By the way, that's a macrocosm

580
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 3: of exactly why Mike Johnson just won the speakership because

581
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 3: there were twenty five Republicans that said, note to Jim Jordan,

582
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 3: which is great, by the way, but they just couldn't

583
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 3: do it a second time, right, and so they're like fine,

584
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 3: and they capitulated on that one. But the January sixth

585
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 3: it was weird because in the conference, So when I

586
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 3: refer to the conference, just imagine all these Republican congressmen

587
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 3: and women meeting. Okay, So in the conference, it was

588
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 3: basically dead silent after January sixth, And to give you

589
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 3: an example, I was actually considering doing a vote of

590
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 3: no confidence against Kevin McCarthy for allowing this to happen,

591
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 3: and I actually thought that I might have been able

592
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 3: to win it. So that gives you an idea of

593
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 3: where the conference was. Okay, three weeks later, so everybody's

594
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 3: kind of sitting there quiet. We don't know what's going

595
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 3: to happen. We're waiting for direction and leadership to say, okay,

596
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 3: it's time to move on. Right, there's still the crazy

597
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 3: Trump faction, but they were pretty small and quiet at

598
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 3: this point. They were I mean, they were loud, but

599
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 3: they were small. Kevin McCarthy goes to mar A Lago,

600
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 3: gets this picture taken with Donald Trump, and the world

601
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 3: turns on a dime. And that is when he took

602
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 3: the off ramp we had, and he drove right past

603
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 3: the off ramp onto the interstate and floored it. And

604
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 3: there have been one hundred but jillion different off ramps

605
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 3: we could have taken, but that was the biggest one.

606
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 3: And Kevin made the decision because he wanted to be

607
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,719
Speaker 3: Speaker of the House. He knew he needed to raise money.

608
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 3: He knew that if he took on Donald Trump, that

609
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 3: he would be denied enough to become speaker, and so

610
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 3: he decided to fully embrace Trump because once he did that,

611
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 3: quote unquote, he knew he could bring the rest of

612
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 3: everybody else along. It was a selfish decision by Kevin

613
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 3: McCarthy that then led to all these limmings in the

614
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 3: Republican Congress following because if Kevin's going with him, we

615
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 3: can't not.

616
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: And did Lindsey Graham. There were a lot of people

617
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: who expressed their disgust for that's tiny window of time.

618
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: And then you're right, everything turned on a dime. And

619
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: is that why you think so poorly of Kevin McCarthy.

620
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I started to dislike Kevin prior to the

621
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 3: election because I noticed that he was defending Donald Trump

622
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 3: more than he would defend his people. So, you know,

623
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 3: if I said something against Donald and I got attacked

624
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 3: by him because I'd say that a lot. Even during

625
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 3: his presidency, Kevin wouldn't defend me. He would defend the

626
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 3: former president. And I'm like, well, your job as the

627
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 3: minority leader is to defend your people. So that's when

628
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 3: that fallout started. And then I also have no respect

629
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 3: for people that don't truly have a moral core. You

630
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,959
Speaker 3: can make compromise for sure, and that's okay to some extent,

631
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 3: but when it comes to actual, like oath type things,

632
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 3: I lose all respect for you. Look, and this is

633
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 3: maybe a controversial way to say it, I don't care.

634
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 3: I don't take an oath to the people I represent. Frankly,

635
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 3: the people I represent are secondary. The only thing I

636
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 3: take an oath to is the Constitution of the United States.

637
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 3: And if seven hundred thousand people I represent all want

638
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 3: me to violate my oath, I took an oath not

639
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 3: to them, to the Constitution, and Kevin McCarthy took that

640
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 3: exact same oath and instead he made a decision for

641
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 3: himself that would change the trajectory of this country. Look,

642
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 3: I can say there can be any issue. We disagree

643
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 3: on any issue, but we can work through that as

644
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 3: long as we agree that the election system is sound. Okay.

645
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 3: It's why you've even come around on the issue of

646
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 3: voting rights, because I'm like, you know what Republicans are

647
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 3: trying to steal elections. I used to like vote against

648
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 3: some of the things because I'm like, yeah, no, that's

649
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 3: a little Hyperbolieve. There's not going to be a stolen election. Now,

650
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm not in Congress anymore or so it's

651
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 3: easy to say it, but I would vote for voting

652
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 3: rights now because I'm like, yeah, actually, Republicans are trying

653
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 3: to disenfranchise. But once you take away the faith in

654
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 3: the election system, you cannot govern yourself. Like democracy goes

655
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 3: out the window. And that's what Donald Trump did by

656
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 3: saying the election was stolen. He convinced half the country

657
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 3: that the election system doesn't work. And by definition, democracy

658
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 3: can't work if you don't have a system that doesn't work.

659
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: After the break the January six hearings, Adam Kinziger on

660
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: what they didn't do and what they did do. Now

661
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: more of my conversation with Adam Kinziger and Mary Trump.

662
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: What was it like overseeing those January six hearings? I

663
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: watched most of them. I had a friend who helped

664
00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: produce them, and I thought they were so well done

665
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: and so clearly made the case for what had happened,

666
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: and yet they didn't move the needle. And I know

667
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: you right about this, Adam, but share with our listeners

668
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: why you think that was the case.

669
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 3: Well, I first of want to say it didn't move

670
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 3: the needle in the GOP. But I think there is

671
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 3: no way. Oh I don't just think this, I know this.

672
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 3: The Department of Justice would not have a case against

673
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 3: Donald Trump right now without the January sixth Committee. So

674
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 3: it was historic in that way. I know that my

675
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 3: son Christian, when he goes to school and learns about

676
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 3: this time period, he's not going to hear about the

677
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 3: FBI doing this or Antifa. He's going to hear the

678
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 3: truth because we got to the bottom of that. So yes,

679
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 3: it didn't change people's minds at the moment because they

680
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 3: are so vested in being right that they can't admit right.

681
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 3: But their kids are never going to believe the conspiracy theories,

682
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 3: and I think within ten years their parents are going

683
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,280
Speaker 3: to pretend like they never believed it in the first place.

684
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 2: I think it made a huge difference for the reasons

685
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 2: you say, for the education it gave us, and absolutely

686
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 2: for what it led the DOJ to do, the evidence

687
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 2: that was collected. One of the most brilliant things about

688
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 2: it too is that almost what ninety eight percent of

689
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 2: the people testifying were Republicans, which was huge. I think

690
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 2: it motivated voters. I think you don't have what happened

691
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two without the January sixth hearing. And

692
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that it convinced Republicans. It means that

693
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 2: it motivated the rest of us who were so moved

694
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 2: and devastated and proud of what your committee did.

695
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, And I'm going to tell you. So

696
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 3: everybody knows the details of what we did, but I'll

697
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 3: share you with you a little insight and I talk

698
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 3: about it a little bit in the book, which is

699
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 3: just it was like God himself put the right people

700
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 3: in that committee because each of us had like a

701
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 3: unique skill set that we needed for that moment. Liz

702
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,280
Speaker 3: Cheney is a dogged like she's a dog on a bone.

703
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 3: She's not gonna let go, and she is like was

704
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 3: obsessed with this the whole time the rest of us

705
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 3: had families. She just like lived in the vault learning

706
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 3: this information and she could put it together because she's

707
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 3: a lawyer and a good scholar on that. You know.

708
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 3: Benny Thompson like, it is very rare to find somebody,

709
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 3: particularly a chairman of a committee, who was willing to

710
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 3: let other people get the spotlight, and he did that

711
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 3: with Liz. We needed that we needed his calm leadership.

712
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 3: You know, Jamie Reskin annoys everybody because they'll tell you

713
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 3: how much he knows, but he knows a ton, right,

714
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 3: so he brings that. You know, I was paying attention

715
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 3: to the right wing conspiracy theories, so I was able

716
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 3: to come in and share, like, we have to address

717
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 3: the Ray Epps issue. If you don't know the REEPS issue,

718
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 3: then count yourself blessed. But if you're listening to Fox

719
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 3: News or something, they all know Ray Epps. And so

720
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 3: everybody brought these unique things. It was a moment that

721
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 3: has never happened before. It will never happen again, unfortunately,

722
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,439
Speaker 3: but it was such a historic moment and we all

723
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,280
Speaker 3: got along and a really quick funny quip. Immediately determined

724
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 3: to dub Adam shiff as Adam Senior, and I dubbed

725
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,879
Speaker 3: myself Adam Junior because I wanted to make the age joke,

726
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 3: and it stuck the whole time in the committee.

727
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: That's funny.

728
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 2: I'm sure. I'm sure he really appreciated that.

729
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 3: He tried to fight back against it a couple of

730
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 3: times and then he just went with it.

731
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:26,240
Speaker 1: So Kevin McCarthy obviously is pushed out. Jim Jordan doesn't

732
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 1: get it. It's just sort of this clown car of

733
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 1: potential speakers until finally Mike Johnson gets it, and he's

734
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 1: an election denier.

735
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he's worse.

736
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think you call him an insurrectionist in

737
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: a suit. Maybe. Is that something that you said, Adam

738
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: or Yeah?

739
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 3: I said, he's Jim Jordan with a jacket. And then

740
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,919
Speaker 3: I told somebody who said publicly what I said, which

741
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 3: is he's Jim Jordan and drag.

742
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: You said he was a well dressed insurrectionist.

743
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. He So look every if

744
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 3: you look back at the arguments being made to not

745
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 3: certify the election by any member of Congress, they all

746
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 3: cited Mike Johnson, who was a constitutional quote unquote, you

747
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,439
Speaker 3: know lawyer, and they cite his arguments. He's the one

748
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 3: that obviously initiated the Amicas brief so members of Congress

749
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 3: could sign on to the Texas lawsuit, which is the

750
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 3: first thing, the first attempt to throw out these legitimate

751
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,919
Speaker 3: votes cast by place like Michigan. And his scary thing

752
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 3: is he speaks well, he looks good, he looks like

753
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 3: a very polished politician, and he is the chief insurrectionist

754
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 3: of the House. He doesn't get the credit that Jim

755
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 3: Jordan does because Jim Jordan was louder. But Mike Johnson

756
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 3: is the reason that some of these lawsuits and stuff

757
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 3: went forward. So yeah, I'm extremely worried that he's there.

758
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just not good.

759
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: What does that portend for the House and what will

760
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: it mean in general for legislation.

761
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 3: Well, I think first off, it means the House isn't

762
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 3: going to do much. I think, you know, we've got

763
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 3: to get through this government shutdown that's coming up, which

764
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 3: I think the government will shut down, but I don't

765
00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 3: know how long. Inevitably it has to end. But I

766
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 3: worry about what it means for aid for Israel and Ukraine,

767
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 3: particularly Ukraine. I think they'll get aid for Israel regardless,

768
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 3: but Ukraine to me is really the fight of our

769
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 3: generation right now. Now. Mike is as indicated that you know,

770
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,399
Speaker 3: he's open to putting aid on the floor. That's good,

771
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 3: I'll give him that, but he's also said like maybe

772
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 3: it's months away, and the fact that he's going to

773
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 3: pay for the Israel aid of ten billion by cutting

774
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 3: the IRS. It'll be interesting to see how he pays

775
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 3: for the one hundred billion or sixty billion in a

776
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 3: to Ukraine. And by the way, just a real quick point,

777
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 3: most people don't realize when you talk about like sixty

778
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 3: billion to Ukraine, it's not like taxpayer money. A little

779
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 3: bit of that is a lot of it is old

780
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 3: equipment that we were going to destroy, like the a

781
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 3: tackms that we were getting ready to destroy that are

782
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 3: being replaced anyway we send to Ukraine and we have

783
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 3: to put a price tag on it. We have to

784
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 3: value that. That's what a lot of that money is.

785
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 3: Cluster munitions, for instance, we gave Ukraine. In fact, they're

786
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 3: very effective. I know they're controversial, but they're very effective

787
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 3: for Ukraine's war. Those were all set to be destroyed

788
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,280
Speaker 3: because we were going to get rid of cluster munitions.

789
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 3: But we have to put a value on that. That's

790
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 3: just a quick aside that I think people I don't

791
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 3: know too much on that.

792
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 2: Why aren't more people taking the road that you and

793
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,720
Speaker 2: Liz Cheney. Maybe the simple answer is it's just power.

794
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 3: I guess when you started to see anybody that spoke

795
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 3: out against Donald being defeated getting death threats. It only

796
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 3: takes a number of those for people to be like,

797
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 3: I'm not going to put my head up right, there's

798
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 3: a survival thing there. Yeah, Now what you see is

799
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 3: a lot of people that don't run again. That includes me.

800
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 3: And by the way, quick aside, I probably wouldn't have

801
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 3: run again anyway, because I had been in the House

802
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 3: twelve years. That's a long time. But people don't run

803
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 3: again because they're like, I'm just done dealing with it,

804
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 3: and I understand it. But in terms of me, you know, look,

805
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 3: I still consider myself a Republican for only one reason,

806
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,280
Speaker 3: because I refuse to let them win. And I also

807
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 3: know that being a Republican gives me a unique ability

808
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 3: to go after Republicans, right because if I attack a Democrat,

809
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 3: everybody's be like, he's a Republican attacking democrat. If Democrats

810
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 3: attack Republicans like ma, that's just If you're a Republican

811
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 3: attacking Republicans, people pay attention. And I haven't changed, you know,

812
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 3: I've moderated on a lot of issues, but that's just

813
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 3: with age. And so I voted Democratic in twenty twenty two.

814
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 3: I'll vote Democratic in twenty twenty four because I think

815
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 3: there's only one issue on the ballot, and it's do

816
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 3: you believe in democracy or not because all the other

817
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 3: stuff we can decide on later, exactly.

818
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 2: And that's why I want to know a little bit

819
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 2: more about where you're doing, because you are one of

820
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 2: the very few people who still identifies as a Republican,

821
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 2: not a former Republican, not a newly minted independent, who

822
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 2: understands that in a deep way, just as in twenty

823
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 2: twenty and twenty twenty two, in twenty twenty four, we

824
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 2: are voting for democracy or we're voting for autocracy. And

825
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 2: until we get to the point where democracy is not

826
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 2: just saved one more time, but it's actually strong, we're

827
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 2: never going to be able to get to the point

828
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 2: where you and I can start disagreeing about policy again.

829
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 2: So how did you come up with this plan of

830
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 2: yours to just only focus on electing pro democracy candidates?

831
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 2: And how's it going? Because I think this is probably

832
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 2: the most important work we could be doing right now.

833
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's great, and thanks for your work on it too.

834
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,839
Speaker 3: And I so my organization is Country First. It's Country one,

835
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 3: the number one st dot com. And look, in twenty twelve,

836
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 3: I had a competitive member against member primary and because

837
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 3: I got redistricted and with another Republican, and I actually

838
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,240
Speaker 3: got a lot of union support. I had union support

839
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 3: in Illinois, and one of the things I was able

840
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 3: to do was get like union Democrats to pull a

841
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 3: Republican ballot and vote for me. And I won. And

842
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 3: so I've been taking that now to the streets, so

843
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 3: to speak. So a couple of things we're doing. We

844
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 3: have an acacemy that's teaching people how to run right,

845
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 3: how to actually be a candidate, because that's there's a

846
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 3: lot of questions on that from people. Republican or Democrat,

847
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 3: doesn't matter. You just put in the country first, that's

848
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 3: the only requirement. And secondarily the question is like, Okay,

849
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 3: if you live in a very Republican district, for instance,

850
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 3: and you're represented by an insurrectionist and you're a Democrat,

851
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,439
Speaker 3: you know, yeah, you can vote democratic in the general election.

852
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 3: They're not going to win. So pull a Republican ballot

853
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 3: if your state allows it, and actually vote for a

854
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 3: better Republican even if you don't like that person, a

855
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 3: pro democracy Republican. That's how we beat Madison Cawthorne in

856
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 3: North Carolina. We had five thousand Democrats that pulled a

857
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 3: Republican ballot and he lost by thirty five hundred votes.

858
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 3: So that's the kind of action we're trying to do.

859
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 3: And you know, I'd love to see frankly, things like

860
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 3: rat choice voting and some and real campaign finance reform.

861
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 3: That's a kind of Tier two targets because that's going

862
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:50,360
Speaker 3: to take a while.

863
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 1: I know Andrew Yang and Christy Todd Whitman are working

864
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 1: on that. Actually, yeah, it's.

865
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 3: Very important, and so I think those are some changes

866
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 3: we can make. But look, it took us deck to

867
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 3: get to this moment. It's going to take us a

868
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 3: while to get out of this moment. But we just

869
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 3: have to have patience.

870
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: I want to pick up on that because you know,

871
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: you talked about Adam in twenty twenty eight having sort

872
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,919
Speaker 1: of a healer come. I have two questions about that. One,

873
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: is the Republican Party salvageable? Could it be morphed into

874
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: a more reasonable, policy oriented Dare I say moderate, sensible,

875
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 1: willing to compromise party? And if so, who are some

876
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: of the leaders who are up and coming who can

877
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: replace what's come to be known as the gerontocracy?

878
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 3: Right?

879
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, where do you see happening in the future with

880
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:43,280
Speaker 1: all of this.

881
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 3: Well, so I see twenty twenty eight as going to

882
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,439
Speaker 3: be a pretty good year for this country because it's

883
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 3: going to be all new candidates on both sides, and

884
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 3: I think there's'd be a lot of new energy. I

885
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 3: hope it's not the vek Ramaswami types. I hope it's

886
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 3: just people with good ideas. And so the question of

887
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 3: who is going to be the upcoming leader, I don't know,

888
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 3: because I don't know if they exist in the political

889
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 3: sphere right now.

890
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: Is there anybody out there who impresses you ad him?

891
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 3: No, honestly, I mean not in the GOP because I now,

892
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 3: you know, look, I like her to an extent, but

893
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 3: she's she's been justifying, you know, Donald Trump, saying it's

894
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 3: a two tier justice system. Right. It's like, you can't,

895
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 3: on the one hand, be this awesome truth teller and

896
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 3: then say that Donald Trump is a victim of a

897
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 3: witch hunp Look at Tim Scott. I'm friends with Tim Scott,

898
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 3: but that guy just basically defended Trump and said Biden

899
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 3: has blood on his hands, for God's sakes, because of Israel. Like, so,

900
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 3: I don't know who those people are I do think

901
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 3: the Republican Party is salvageable. It will have to be

902
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 3: because we have two parties in this country, and naturally

903
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 3: power flows to where you can get fifty percent of

904
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 3: the people. If the people reject the GOP and reject

905
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 3: the extremism in the GOP, it will naturally have to

906
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 3: self correct, and it will do that. I do think

907
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 3: it's a ways off, though I don't think that's going

908
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 3: to happen anytime soon, but it could be accelerated in

909
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 3: twenty twenty eight if there's a good candidate that I

910
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 3: say this, we need a If you're a Republican, your

911
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 3: mentor is Ronald Reagan. If you're a Democrat, AT's Obama.

912
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 3: It's that we need that kind of a person, I

913
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 3: think to come along and bring the country together.

914
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: Could it be you?

915
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 3: You know, look, I'd be open to it. I never

916
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 3: thought i'd ever get back into politics. But I also

917
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 3: am like looking at this like the itches coming back

918
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 3: a little bit. I'm careful to say it because I

919
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 3: don't want people to think that what I'm doing now

920
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 3: isn't anything like because of a plan to run for president,

921
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 3: because it's not. But I wouldn't turn it down, it'd

922
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 3: be something I'd certainly be open at looking at.

923
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 2: But there is, you know, as you just said, there's

924
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 2: a leadership vacuum there, and we need people who represent

925
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 2: people who aren't represented by the Democratic Party or who

926
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 2: views are represented by Democratic Party. Again. The Democratic Party

927
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 2: is the only major political party currently that is per

928
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 2: Democracy Party, and we need the Republican Party to be

929
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 2: that again. And I think that's that's why what you

930
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 2: and Liz Cheney did as an Americans, as people who,

931
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 2: as you said, made a nose to the Constitution, not

932
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 2: to one man, not to your conciituents, have sort of

933
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: paved the way. So it's going to be I think

934
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,280
Speaker 2: it's going to be absolutely fascinating to see what happens

935
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty eight, But we have to survive twenty

936
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 2: twenty four first, and that's going to be That's going

937
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 2: to be the trick.

938
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 3: That's right. I don't want to give people hope that

939
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four is going to get better. It's going

940
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 3: to be really bad. But the hope does come after that.

941
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 3: And I think I think it's going to be an

942
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 3: American century. I mean, I really do. I think if

943
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 3: you just look at all the metrics are people everything,

944
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 3: It's going to be great, But we go through these

945
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 3: times in history. You look at the twenties and there

946
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 3: are two million Kukluks. I'm sitting in Chicago right now.

947
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,399
Speaker 3: There are two millillion Ku Klux Klan members within one

948
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 3: state of Chicago all the way around in nineteen twenties. Right.

949
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:47,719
Speaker 3: We came back from that, We'll come back.

950
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 1: I thought it was so interesting, Adam, what you said

951
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 1: about the Democratic Party and about the potential of it

952
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 1: becoming fractured over Israel, and you were saying, as someone

953
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: from a part that has really kind of imploded, you

954
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: were issuing a bit of a warning to Democrats. And

955
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 1: the other thing I wanted to say, while we're on

956
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: the topic of Democrats, yes they may be pro democracy,

957
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 1: but they certainly are not reaching a lot of these disenchanted, disenfranchised,

958
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 1: blue collar voters that make up the bulk of Trump support.

959
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: And I'm curious if you could speak to both of

960
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: those issues.

961
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 3: Well, let me first off say, like, I get concerned

962
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 3: with the Democrats because when I tell them this thing,

963
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 3: they get offended and get mad at me. And I'm like, look,

964
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 3: if you think I'm just throwing a spiritu to hurt you.

965
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 3: I'm not I'm warning you. And if you don't want

966
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 3: to believe it, this is exactly the kind of warnings

967
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 3: that were coming from people like Michael Moore in twenty

968
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 3: sixteen when he predicted Donald Trump would win and everybody

969
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 3: laughed at his face, including me. By the way, so yes,

970
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 3: on Israel, I remember five years ago a guy named

971
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 3: Dana Roorbacher who was the old me pro Russian Republican

972
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 3: in the House of Representatives, and I would attack him

973
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 3: and attack him in the committee. I got along with him,

974
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 3: but I would attack him on these issues, and everybody

975
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 3: told me, stop attacking Dana. It's just Dana. Right now,

976
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 3: about half of the party is pro Russia. Okay, it grows,

977
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 3: and so that's just a warning to people. And then

978
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 3: what was the other issue?

979
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: I think the other question I had is, you know,

980
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 1: you talk in your book about sort of how coastal

981
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: elites and the Democratic Party and this is not a

982
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: new thing either, but how they dismiss and disrespect people

983
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 1: in the middle of the country and the flyover states,

984
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 1: and it's it really is true that there, for whatever reason,

985
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party has become a party of elite, college educated,

986
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: wealthy people.

987
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,799
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and it's it's actually kind of switched with

988
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 3: the GOP on that by the way, right, you know,

989
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 3: the voters in my district when I started it, when

990
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 3: I started serving, was a swing district. It became a

991
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,280
Speaker 3: very Republican district and there wasn't a lot of migration

992
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 3: in and out of the district. People switched because they

993
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 3: felt left behind by the Democrats. And you know, look,

994
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 3: I'm sitting in Chicago right now. Can't tell you in

995
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 3: the last two days the number of hardcore Democrats I've

996
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 3: spoken to here that are upset about the crime in

997
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 3: the city. And now you have this huge migration issue

998
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 3: because you know, there's a lot of like ten cities

999
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 3: that are upset about it, and that's an issue that

1000
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 3: Democrats can talk about the compassion. I'm actually very compassionate

1001
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 3: to immigrants. I'm a moderate on immigration reform. But you've

1002
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 3: got to listen when you hear those echoes of concern,

1003
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:40,360
Speaker 3: listen to them and deal with them, because otherwise people

1004
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 3: will feel unheard like they did in the Midwest. And

1005
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 3: it's why a place like Wisconsin that never should have

1006
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:50,800
Speaker 3: voted Republican is voting Republican. So it's another again, another warning.

1007
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 3: When you hear people being upset about something, don't just

1008
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:56,439
Speaker 3: tell them they're wrong. Actually, maybe find out if there's

1009
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 3: something to it.

1010
00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 1: Pay attention.

1011
00:50:58,800 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.

1012
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,320
Speaker 1: Well, the book is called Renegade, Defending Democracy and Liberty

1013
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 1: in Our Divided Country. Adam, it's a pleasure talking to

1014
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: you and Mary. This was so fun.

1015
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 2: This was fantastic.

1016
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:11,479
Speaker 3: Well thanks for having you guys.

1017
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, really fun talking to you. Thanks, Adam, and good

1018
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 1: luck with the book. And if you announce anything, do

1019
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,800
Speaker 1: it with Mary and me. Okay I will, Oh sure,

1020
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: you take care.

1021
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 2: Mary.

1022
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 1: That was really fun. Did you enjoy that conversation?

1023
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 2: Oh my, that was incredible. Well, you're like the master,

1024
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 2: so it's a sort of like, yes, it was great

1025
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 2: talking to Adam, but just watching you work is just

1026
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:43,319
Speaker 2: like so cool for me.

1027
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:45,919
Speaker 1: Oh well, listen right back at you. I'm a big

1028
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: fan and you're doing obviously a podcast, and I know

1029
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:50,839
Speaker 1: you have a newsletter too.

1030
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. The Good in Us is my newsletter, which is

1031
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 2: on substack, and that's sort of where I'm trying to

1032
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 2: create a community and keep people positive in these very

1033
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:04,440
Speaker 2: dark times because it does feel like the times are

1034
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 2: pretty dark and kind of getting darker, and we need

1035
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 2: to keep people engaged for another year. It's only twelve months, Skati.

1036
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 1: That just is It's so crazy, isn't it. And we

1037
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 1: need to keep them engaged period. I think the number

1038
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,439
Speaker 1: of people in this country who don't vote is such

1039
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 1: a travesty and I wish they would make it a

1040
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,919
Speaker 1: national holiday, give everyone off, you know, the day off

1041
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 1: from work and almost. I mean, I think they have

1042
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 1: mandatory voting in some countries. I think in Australia, I

1043
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 1: think it's an obligation. I think it's a duty, you know.

1044
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and that's what we need to write. We

1045
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 2: need a bill of responsibilities.

1046
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,839
Speaker 1: Actually, we need a lot of stuff. Mary Trump, well,

1047
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 1: thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it.

1048
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 1: And what's your substack again so people can sign up

1049
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 1: for it.

1050
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 2: It's called the Good in Us, The Good in Us,

1051
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 2: The Good in Us. I'm trying to be positive positive yep.

1052
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 3: Or you could just.

1053
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 2: Google my name and subseach and you would get there

1054
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 2: and I will be keeping everybody posted about when the

1055
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 2: Mary Trump Show re emerges with my nerdive engers and yeah,

1056
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 2: because we've got to hit the ground running.

1057
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,280
Speaker 1: A lot to do, and you've already written two books,

1058
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: right Mary.

1059
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:24,240
Speaker 2: Yes, and I'm actually finishing my third, which is coming

1060
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,800
Speaker 2: out in July, so I'll have to keep you posted

1061
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:27,439
Speaker 2: about that as well.

1062
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: Has it been satisfying to find your voice this way?

1063
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure it's been very agonizing and upsetting,

1064
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 1: because the reason you have found your voice is gosh,

1065
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 1: I don't even know how to describe it, you know,

1066
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 1: disillusionment with the family member. But do you feel like

1067
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:47,760
Speaker 1: you're putting important stuff out in the world.

1068
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 3: I do.

1069
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 2: Actually, I very much regret the fact that Donald is

1070
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 2: still a force in American politics. I think that's dangerous

1071
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 2: and it says a lot nothing good about where we

1072
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:04,799
Speaker 2: are as a country. But I feel enormously grateful that

1073
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 2: I've had the opportunity to join the resistance and the

1074
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:12,839
Speaker 2: fight for democracy because, uh, who knew that we would

1075
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,720
Speaker 2: be here, or that I would be here. So it's

1076
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 2: been a wild ride. I do look forward to focusing

1077
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:21,719
Speaker 2: on other things at some point, I.

1078
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 1: Think all of us do.

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Speaker 2: I think so.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Mary so much.

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Speaker 2: Thank you Katie. This is wonderful.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,

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00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

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Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy

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Speaker 1: world reach out. You can leave a short message at

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Speaker 1: six oh nine five point two five to five five,

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Speaker 1: or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I

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Speaker 1: would love to hear from you. Next Question is a

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartMedia and Katie Correct Media. The executive producers

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Speaker 1: are Me, Katie Couric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer

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00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: is Ryan Martx, and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and

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Speaker 1: Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music. For more

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Speaker 1: information about today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter,

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Speaker 1: wake Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app,

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Speaker 1: or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also

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Speaker 1: find me on Instagram and all my social media channels.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.