WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 47 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.400 you know this is a compiletion episode, So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.119 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:27.760 can make your own decisions. Welcome back to it could 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:32.400 Happen here, the podcast about things happening that are bad 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.360 and occasionally good, but all have to do with the 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.960 fact that we're living in a society whose norms are 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:44.680 crumbling as the environment also crumbles, and political violence and 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:47.240 a bunch of other horrible things become more normalized, trying 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:51.879 to figure out how to not die ideally um and 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:55.160 occasionally how to thrive. And to that end, I have 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.520 a guest today who has been kind of working with 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:02.040 the working lately on how not to die in the 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:06.440 face of things getting increasingly violent and aggressive out there. 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:09.959 I want to welcome Jessica Keckler to the program. Jessica, 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:15.240 how are you doing today? Doing great? So, Jessica, um, 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:18.480 you know we are as listeners to the show and 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:23.160 observers of just basic reality in the outside are aware 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:26.720 we're kind of going under a or living through a 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:30.000 period of like panic and concerted aggressive attack on the 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:34.480 rights and ability to exist of transgender people. That's um 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:37.440 hasn't like has never not been a problem as long 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:41.679 as there's been you know, Western civilization, but has increasingly 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:45.039 been a problem the last year or so. Yeah, it's 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:47.880 it's really Um, it's really wild because, um, when you 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:51.480 take estrogen, you're When I start taking estrogen, it took 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:53.240 like ten years off of my face as far as 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:55.360 age goes, But then in this past year, I think 0:01:55.360 --> 0:02:00.280 it's put back by now. Um. Yeah, I mean that 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:04.080 makes sense. Like it's it's it's stressful as hell out there. Um, 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:06.920 there has been a surge in violence, UM, not just 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:10.600 against trands people, obviously we've talked about in other episodes. UM, 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:14.120 there's been a surgeon violence against Asian Americans, UM, against 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:18.120 LGBT Americans, but transgender people are much more likely than 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:22.640 almost any other group in the United States to be attacked. Uh, 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.720 And that has been increasingly reality for a lot of people. 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.200 And you are one of a number of folks in 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:32.440 that position, who have been increasingly talking or who have 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:37.960 find yourself thinking about the necessity and value of being 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:39.960 armed in order to defend yourself from that. I want 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:41.920 to talk a little bit about your background there and 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:45.680 kind of what, um, how how you kind of came 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:48.680 to deciding that that was something that you wanted to 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:52.160 not just do personally, but advocate for other people to do. Yeah. 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:57.840 I went through well llient libertarian spaces. It was it 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:00.480 was many years, but you know, and I collected a 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:02.079 bunch of guns, and you know, I was like, oh, 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:05.359 that's you know, cool. But then, um, after I sort 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:08.160 of worked through my childhood traump and stuff, I you know, 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:10.200 I sort of feel a lot less threatened about about things, 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:11.919 and I just sort of, you know, it, just sort 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:15.520 of lost interest in them for a while. But then, um, 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:18.440 a friend of mine, Kendall Stevens, was telling me about 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:20.600 a time when she was attacked in her home by 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.960 a group of transpos and just beaten almost to death. 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:28.919 And that next morning, I, um, I I have reapplied 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:32.400 for my Harry permit. Yeah, and this is I mean, 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:34.480 this is a story I was not aware of. I 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.000 was aware. Broadly speaking, there have been a number of attacks, 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:39.520 including number of fatal attacks in the last couple of 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:45.280 years on particularly trans women. There was the murder of 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:51.160 West Philadelphia woman Alicias Simmons um in November of um, 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.240 Chanta Tucker in Hunting Park in the fall of two 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:57.600 thousand eighteen, uh, and may have two thousand nineteen, Michelle 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:00.080 Tamika Washington was shot to death in North Philly and 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:04.120 this is all like local to you. Um. And also 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:10.600 Dominique Remay Fells was was murdered in June, if I think, um, 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:12.480 And yeah, if people want to look this up, there's 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:14.520 a couple of different articles. I'm looking at one on 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.480 Billy Pin with the title after surviving a brutal attack, 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.880 Kendall Stevens wants to help trans people citywide And yeah, 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:23.440 it's a it's a fucking harrowing story, you know, after 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:28.040 surviving a number of different attacks from from like people 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.640 just kind of targeting her because she's trans. She was 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:35.159 attacked in her home by six of her neighbors while 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:37.560 her god daughter, who was twelve years old. Watch it's 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:43.120 a fucking horrifying story. So you, like, did you find 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.600 out about what had happened, like directly from her like, 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:50.200 how does this kind of information? I was. I was at, um, 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:52.200 there's a local trans group where we just you know, 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:54.480 get on zoom and talk. And yeah, it was one 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:57.160 of my first meetings, and actually I think it was 0:04:57.200 --> 0:04:59.479 the very first, and she just told this whole story, 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:01.839 and I was just you know, it's like I always 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:03.919 had the feeling of safety, but then it's just like realized, like, 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:08.240 oh that's you know, like being white, I'm a little safer. 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:10.800 But it's just like it's we're all you know, it's 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:14.320 really yeah, it's it's a it's a matter of like 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:17.839 a small number of degrees. It's not. Um. So you're 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:20.720 you're you're trying to deal with this and you're you're communicating. 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:23.400 You've got this group where you're all sort of like 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.200 chatting about I'm guessing just kind of like safety stuff, 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:28.000 like hey here, you know, we we should all be 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.040 kind of keeping each other informed and trying to talk 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:34.920 about what's going on. Right, Yeah, I mean we mostly 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:37.200 just shoot the ship and just you know, talk things 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:41.800 over and stuff like that. But she was, um, yeah, 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:43.880 something had come up, and she recounted this whole story, 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:47.880 and it was just it just really made me go like, 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:51.719 oh my god. Yeah, so you kind of are in 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:55.440 this position where you own firearms, You're you're comfortable with them, 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:58.599 you've been using them for a while, and number one, 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:00.760 you get your permit, right, Like that's kind of the 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:02.760 first thing you do. And then I'm guessing you start 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.440 to think like, well, there's not a lot of other 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:07.440 people that are in this kind of group I'm in 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.000 that have this experience that kind of like where the 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:15.039 yeah right? Because um, you know, because when I would 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:16.960 talk to people before that, they would just to sort 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:18.920 of say like, yeah, I can see where you're coming 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:21.960 with that. And but once the attack started, I'm I 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:25.039 heard a lot I've heard a lot more people going like, yes, 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:28.080 I need to do that too, you know. Yeah, So 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:29.919 I kind of want to know because I mean, what 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:31.680 we're kind of building too is you've been you've been 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:36.039 putting together a class for trans folks in Philly to 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:40.160 go to to learn about how firearms function, the legality 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:43.440 and legal concerns about being armed, and like the steps 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:45.039 they might need to go to if they decide to 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:47.880 do that themselves. Um, how does that idea kind of 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:49.800 come together for you to actually like put this this 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:53.960 class together? Okay, well, um, I remember of the s 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:58.000 R right, the Socialist Rifle Association, and they have classes 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.760 they call Gundamentals and it's just sort of an uproad 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:03.120 a review, um to sort of sort of every if 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:05.560 you've never picked up a gun before, it's it will 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:09.200 tell you, um, you know, it'll give you just information 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.600 on you know, everything you need to to before you 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:14.920 use it. And um, I thought it would be a 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.720 good idea to just have a trans just a class 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:21.000 with just my trans friends, and they were of course 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:24.320 open to it, and it went really well, and I 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:28.440 planted more in the future. Yeah, um, so you kind 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:30.880 of you're going through both sort of the basics of 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:33.160 here's and this is kind of a thing I think 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.760 about a lot. I recently carried out a class for 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:39.040 I don't want to be too specific, but at risk 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:42.000 individuals in my local area. That was a mix of 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:43.800 and I was not the one doing to stop the 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:47.360 bleed portion, primarily we have people who are medical professionals. 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:48.760 But it was a mix of a stop the bleed 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:52.520 class and like a firearms familiarization class. And it was 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:56.200 not from the perspective of like, hey, people need to 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:58.760 be strapping up so here's how to get a gun. 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:00.920 But it was from the perspective of, hey, there's four 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.320 million firearms in the United States, whether regardless of what 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:06.080 you think about the legality, you should have a basic 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:09.280 understanding of how they function and how to since you're 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.000 all adults, render a weapon safe, right, So we did. 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:14.760 We have these fake bullet snap caps, so I would 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:17.000 explain how an a are and a handgun works, and 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:19.080 then we would have everyone take turns, kind of like 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:21.280 we had with the stop the bleed portion, you know, 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:23.280 where you teach people to use a tourniquet. Would everyone 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:27.120 take turns arriving to the weapon, putting the weapon in 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:30.040 their hands without like flagging everybody or putting their finger 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.840 on the trigger and then dropping the magazine and clearing it. 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:34.920 And a lot of folks the thing they expressed was 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:39.480 like as people who didn't necessarily want to be armed 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:42.840 themselves felt like I was. I had never got I 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:46.319 never knew how to, like asked to have this experience 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:49.200 because normally, when you're in the room with a firearm, 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:51.640 it's because like maybe you're gonna go shooting with somebody 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:54.640 or something. So if you're not seeking out that experience 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:56.600 to actually go to a range. It's kind of hard 0:08:57.160 --> 0:08:59.880 to sit with a gun and just understand the base 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:02.079 because of how this thing functions and how to render 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.079 it safe. And so there were a lot of folks 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:07.120 who particularly were like it seemed to be grateful for 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:09.760 just that experience to kind of like reduce the mystery 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:11.920 around it and gain kind of a functional understanding of 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:16.360 just the mechanics. Yeah, it was. Yeah, the class was 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:18.840 really good. I haven't taken it before, but it's, um, 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:20.960 you know, it shows like you went through like the 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:22.760 the anatomy of football, at the anatomy of a gun, 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:24.760 how it works, how to how to do it safely, 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:29.040 how to you know, like the four rules of gun safety, um, 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:33.560 legal things, and it was just it was really good course. Now, 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:36.280 so you take this course, you know, you're you're in 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.440 communication with these friends, you're dealing with like this constant 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:43.280 drumbeat of attacks. Um, you decide it's time to put 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:45.760 together a course for people. How do you kind of 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:50.240 work out what the syllabus is going to be for this? Um, well, 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:52.520 if they're all they have the whole class set up already. 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:55.240 I just sort of yeah, I had just had a 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:59.880 version just for my transfriends. Yeah, so what what in 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:01.760 like what did you kind of add to that or 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:04.000 alter to that in order to like prepare it for this. 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:08.640 Not much. I just it was just I just thought 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:12.080 they would be more comfortable in a class with just us. Yeah, 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:14.719 I mean that makes sense. And it also do you 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:17.440 think it helped that, Like this isn't because you know 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.280 the Socialist Rifle Association. You're attending that class. You're kind 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:23.199 of like attending a class put on by an organization 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:25.600 that has being both armed and political kind of in 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.600 its name, which maybe infers a little bit more commitment 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:32.240 to something than the class kind of you put together 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:34.920 on like a political level. Yeah, it's it's not as 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:37.320 hardcore as as you might think from the name. It's 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.400 just it's mostly they have the gundamental class. They have 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.280 to stoppable courses kind of you know this kind of thing, 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:46.240 and I think they there's very discussions too. I haven't 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:50.040 gone telling them. Yeah, and and so you've you put 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:51.800 this thing together. And the thing that you mentioned earlier 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:53.160 when we were talking about this is kind of a 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:58.600 discussion on like um like the the particularly legal concerns 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:00.920 that trans people seeking to arm themselves might have in 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:02.040 your area, and I wanted to talk to you a 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:04.880 little bit about that because obviously, when we talk about 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.600 gun legalities, it varies wildly from state to state. UM, 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:11.080 So nothings that either of us say. And this should 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.600 be construed as legal advice for what you should do 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:15.400 in your own area. You're gonna have to check that 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:18.080 out yourself. But yeah, I'm interested in what you saw 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:20.719 is kind of worth putting in that. UM well, the 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:23.400 I mean, the big addition to bring up is that 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:26.720 if you're not UM, if you if you don't present 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:29.959 as your assigned gender at birth, they could the person 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:32.079 who's running the check could say that, hey, this person 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.520 is coming to me in a disguise you know, UM, 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:39.599 and you could UM in future if you're trying to 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:40.880 get a gun in the future, that could be on 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:42.800 your record and people could use that it's now you 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:47.120 really I now, I had never heard about that, So 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.920 that's like an actual I mean obviously, like when you 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.680 file the form four four seven three. One of the 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:54.920 problems I know from just talking to friends that you 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:58.440 encounter is that like if you're if your your gender 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.960 does not match, like it's on your legal documents and stuff, 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:04.120 you have to write what's on your legal documents on 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:07.199 the form because it's a government form. Um. Although the 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.640 four four seven three, which is the background check form, 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:11.880 does now allow you to put in non binary if 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:13.560 that is, like, but you still have to have it 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:17.000 on your legal documents. Um, And we're we're mostly used 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:19.520 to that for everything else. But it's just the fact 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:23.480 that they could specifically target you. Yeah, I was actually 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:25.839 unaware of that as a specific problem, like that you 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.080 could be accused of like showing up in disguise to 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:30.160 do what's called a straw purchase, you know, which is 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.240 when you illegally buy a gun for somebody else. I 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.360 didn't realize that was a Yeah, So we're there kind 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.360 of other things to like keep in mind there, Like 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:40.880 because I'm particularly I'm sure we have a lot of 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:46.520 folks listening who are in this same headspace right now. Um, 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:50.880 because again, things aren't getting a lot less scary out there. Um. 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:52.680 I mean I can say just within the last couple 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:55.599 of years, probably around half of the people that I 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:58.560 shoot with on a regular basis are trans just because 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.080 like it's the of the you're the folks who are 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:05.960 being kind of most directly targeted and have the least 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:09.200 institutional support obviously, yea. And we have like people in 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:12.520 Congress openly calling for our executions, and it's just, yes, 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.960 that's a feeling, you know. It's like, yeah, that's something 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:18.240 I've ever experienced before. But it's like, yeah, you have 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:21.640 like nationally famous politicians just saying like, yes, we need 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:26.080 to kill every one of them, and it's like, good lord. Yeah. 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:29.800 And that's the thing, Like, you know, I think we 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.000 talk a lot on the show when we do talk 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.480 about being armed, and I've just talked a lot of 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:38.360 my personal life about like sort of where what the 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.280 left should be doing in terms of like a gun 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:43.280 culture and like the kind of pitfalls that need to 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:47.679 be avoided, because obviously the solution to like the discrepancy 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:49.920 of arms in the left and the right in this 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:53.120 country is not to recreate what the right wing has, 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:57.160 because what the right wing has is like vicious and insane. Yeah, 0:13:57.200 --> 0:13:59.720 I mean it's it's bad. We don't we you don't 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:04.600 want that, um but uh and and and so obviously, 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:06.400 like one of the things that I tend to think 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:10.160 of as as silly is like the the folks who 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:12.800 are and I don't think this is a particularly large jump, 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:14.719 but you do get people who are kind of look 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:18.040 at being armed from like and then we're you know, um, 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:21.480 this is so that we can you know, be the 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:23.800 new red army insurgent type thing, which I think is 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:27.520 a less realistic use case of firearms on the left 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:32.400 than the police are not going to protect our community. Um, 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.160 there are a shipload of people with guns who hate us, 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.040 and you know, honestly, like one of the when I 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:42.400 think about, like, what are the threats that are realistic 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:44.600 and what are the threats when we talk obviously this 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:46.800 show that we're on the way, they're the way the 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.600 way they're doing the you know, you have um like 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:52.120 Tucker Carlson saying like, oh another week in buy mar 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:54.960 and you know, making all these things and they they're 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.080 sort of like all these trans people. It's like someone 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:01.880 should do something wink wink, Yeah exactly. And that's the 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:05.640 when we're on a show right now that started out 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:08.800 as me talking about, Hey, I think people who are 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.400 I think the threat of massive civil conflict in the 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:16.280 United States is higher than people guess, and that broadly speaking, 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:19.400 is mainstream. Now there is a strong mainstream understand like 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:22.840 standing that some sort of civil conflict is possible. It's 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:25.160 still when people talk about it primarily in the terms 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.320 of like this big civil war type thing, which I 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.440 think is broadly speaking, probably pretty silly. What's not silly 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:37.360 is the breakdown of expectations of social morays and things 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:39.600 like you can't show up in a big armed group 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.280 and start killing people that you have on a list, 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:46.000 who are are folks that you have decided because their 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:49.880 trans because whatever are are your enemy. And like one 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:51.680 of the things that I'm kind of concerned we're going 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:54.240 to see at some point in the future is a 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.120 fucking mob gets spun up and go and take out 0:15:57.200 --> 0:15:59.040 some people on their list. And I'm not sure what 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.920 that list is going to be, but you know, there's 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.040 a couple of people who pay attention, there's a couple 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:07.520 of broad possibilities as to who would be targeted. And 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:10.640 then local law enforcements say, we're not going to choose 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.640 to do anything about this. We're not going to and 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.520 again this hat I'm not coming up with this because 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:18.960 this is like a bleak. I know you are well 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:21.280 aware of this, but like, we had an abortion clinic 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:23.080 burnt down earlier this year, and I think it was 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.720 Kentucky and the police refused to investigate it, right, like 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:30.040 this kind of ship already happens, you know. Um, yeah, 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:32.560 it was. For a while I was like, okay, well 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:34.280 they're not really going to and then it's like then 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:37.000 they started coming after our kids, and just like I 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:39.720 almost didn't survive my adolescent so I know just how 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.800 much pain those kids are in. And yeah, and then 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:44.760 it's like okay, then they got rid of rovers way 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:50.280 and it's like, okay, they're not They're not just posturing anymore. No, 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.200 they're santastic. Final it's like, you know, hey, someone should 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:55.360 do something was bad enough. But then it's like, okay, 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:59.160 they're really they're on a tear hair. So you're you're 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.440 put together. This asked for folks who I'm going to 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:04.240 guess most of them had not Number one, didn't have 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.600 much experience with weapons firearms prior to this, and probably 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:10.560 also had not prior to you know, the last year 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:12.560 or two I thought that they would ever be someone 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:16.440 considering purchasing armaments. I mean, some of them said that 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:18.119 you know, they grew up you know, in rural places 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:20.240 and grew up with guns and stuff, but touched them 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:24.200 since they were kids, So, right, you were there any 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:26.440 kind of like specific questions that you got that you 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:29.720 you found were interesting or kind of like surprising. Like 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:31.439 I'm kind of interested in sort of what sort of 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:33.960 things people had to ask, not in particular, I think 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:36.879 everyone was just sort of just trying to learn everything 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:41.320 and just like that, Yeah, where there is there kind 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.800 of a has there been sort of like, um, any 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:47.359 further discussions about like well what comes next? Right like 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:49.879 after the sort of basic class of people decided to 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:54.240 start purchasing like firearms, step two is like train in 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.000 order to use them like functionally, right, Like it's not 0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:58.720 a kind of thing you can just have. Yeah, the 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:01.000 next up, the next step from the group of friends 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:03.480 that I have, Um, I'm planning to you know, go 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:05.600 to a range with them, and I mean we have 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:09.119 to sort of find what ranges are most friendly. But yeah, 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.160 so we're probably gonna do that and just see how 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:15.840 it goes with everyone. I mean I know that where 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:19.760 I am. One thing that people will do is you know, 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:21.880 you'll you'll have folks who will kind of go out 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:25.600 and be uh kind of a little guinea pigs for like, 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:28.480 is this gun's store a friendly place like right, like 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:30.080 is this a place we can go and buy weapons 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:33.119 and not and and have people like respond, well, is 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:35.280 this range a friendly place? And then kind of will 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:37.040 spread that to the rest of the community that like, hey, 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:39.399 this is a safe place to shoot too, this is 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:40.720 a safe place to buy Do you have you guys 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:43.679 been kind of like setting stuff up like that or 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:46.480 what No, not yet, but that's that is the next step, 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:50.000 trying to figure it out. Yeah, and when it when 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:55.800 it comes to like just organizing for the increasing hostility 0:18:56.320 --> 0:19:01.639 that that people are facing. Um. Has it has it 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:03.960 kind of pushed you to do anything more formal with 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:06.520 like the communications groups you have in terms of like 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:09.720 you know, I need I might need I'm going on 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:11.240 a walk at night, I need somebody to be able 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:13.160 to like call or something like that, I'm worried I'm 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:15.960 being followed, Like is there Has this been the kind 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:17.960 of thing that you've been like setting up more in 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:21.840 the way of precautions around so much because most of 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:24.040 us just live in the city and we're we're usually 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:27.399 pretty okay with that, um or we'll have you know, 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:36.240 friends nearby, you know, well nothing so um formal? Yeah? UM, 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:38.760 I mean, which is yeah, I think how most people 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:41.920 kind of do it. Um, what do you sort of 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:47.160 like watching out right now? Um? What is kind of 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:51.879 I don't know the thing you're you like, like, do 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:53.680 you have anything sort of on the horizon that you're 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:57.760 sort of looking at as you know, if this happens, 0:19:57.760 --> 0:19:59.679 then I'm going to expect this to happen, and like 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:03.160 maybe we need to do this time for some kind 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:06.000 of more formal plans. It's hard to say. I'm I've 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:09.400 just been sort of just watching all of this horrible 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:13.040 stuff unfold. Everything happens so fast. I mean, you know, 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:14.280 like I said, I didn't think they're going to get 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:16.560 rid of Row, So it was just I just I 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.560 don't know what's coming next. Um, I'm just realizing it's 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:22.120 like it's so serious. It's actually getting to the point 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:25.320 where I'm just sort of seeing myself just trying to 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:27.160 make amends with people in my past, and it's like 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:29.439 you just you just take a step back and look 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.080 at yourself, like, oh wow, it really is getting bad 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:35.880 that it's just subconsciously I'm just thinking I should make 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:43.000 peace with some of these people. That's pretty bleak. Um. 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:49.680 I I'm struggling for like something more positive to say, um, 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:51.720 which I'm not sure is that is kind of the 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:55.679 right impulse, but it is sort of like we're all 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:58.880 kind of like grappling for because one of the problems 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:02.199 is that the scale of the threat, I think is 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:04.840 or the reality of the threat is very clear to people, right, 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:06.959 whether you're kind of a centrist dim and you just 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:08.679 see like, oh, ship, there's actually like a lot of 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:11.080 like militia type folks with guns talking about a civil 0:21:11.080 --> 0:21:13.080 war and they almost took over Congress. This is a 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:18.440 real threat. Or whether you're you know, a transperson or um, 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:21.440 you know, an indigenous person or a migrant or something 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:23.840 somebody who's you know, here in the country in a 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:26.400 less than legal fashion and you're stay seeing like, oh, 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:28.840 they're specific threats against groups people like me, and they're 0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:31.680 being more organized and more att actually being carried out. Um, 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:35.399 the reality of the threat is I think clear in 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:39.360 differing degrees to everybody. What's not clear is the the 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:41.560 scope in the shape of it. Right, So we know 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:44.840 there's a lot of like armed right wing assholes talking 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:47.720 about violent ship. We don't know is are they going 0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:50.480 to get their shipped together right, like enough to do 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:53.720 something like unto what extent and in what areas right 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:56.439 that is? I think that you know, it's like the 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:58.359 enemy is strong and weak at the same time, of course, 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:01.440 but I think with us, really they really don't expect 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:04.960 any resistance. And I think that if you know, if 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:07.440 they start meeting resistance or're seeing us with that like, hey, 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:11.239 we have shame rightful to you, do you know? Yeah, well, 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:14.040 and I think that might you know, hold them off 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:17.520 a little bit at least. I think that's generally like 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:22.320 a if you're kind of like, I don't know, uh, 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:24.959 thinking about it from that from the perspective of like 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:32.120 and kind of a soulless, like, uh, top down view 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:35.159 of this is just a strategic thing, like what are 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:37.720 the what are the best ways to oppose this kind 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:40.520 of like right wing and surgean force. Well, like obviously 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:44.440 one of them is not to like hand them ground, right, 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:47.480 like don't don't don't don't do the thing that you 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:49.960 see a lot of people in the left doing, which is, oh, 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:53.679 they're coming for you know, trans people. Well that's not 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:58.000 you know, you there's been a lot of like very 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:02.040 ugly talk on certains of liberals and left of like well, 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:04.399 you know, if we defend these people, that's going to 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:06.600 be bad for us in an electoral sense, you know, 0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:08.600 and like, this isn't something that gets you votes in 0:23:08.680 --> 0:23:11.560 small exact exactly. Hillary Clinton just fucking came out and 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:17.800 said this, right, and it's Um. I I feel like 0:23:17.880 --> 0:23:20.199 I think historically as a bad strategy. You know, if 0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:22.000 you're just looking at what happened in history, obviously I 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:26.640 think it's immoral. Um. And I also, yeah, I think 0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:30.000 that you are right in that the only reason that 0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:33.440 they're this scary right now is because for the better 0:23:33.480 --> 0:23:36.159 part of twenty years a little less than that, but 0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:39.439 this really started to accelerate after Obama got elected. Every 0:23:39.480 --> 0:23:42.719 time the far right has like pushed for something and 0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:45.480 like made a stink or started making threats, people have 0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:48.920 backed off right and even outside of you know, threats 0:23:48.920 --> 0:23:51.480 specific communities, they were ship like the Mayac report, which 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:55.320 is in like the mid of Obama's term, the Homeland 0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:57.520 Security put out a report warning about the growth of 0:23:57.560 --> 0:24:00.960 the domestic militia movement, and they like made a big 0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:02.720 they flipped out about it, and we're like, look, they're 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:04.480 saying that if you have a Gadsden flag, you're a 0:24:04.520 --> 0:24:07.040 domestic terrorist and all this stuff, and the bomb backed 0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:09.399 off and fired. All of the people in in the 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:12.560 federal government who are like watching this ship. Um, which 0:24:12.600 --> 0:24:14.760 we can talk about the degree to which it's ever 0:24:14.840 --> 0:24:16.480 reasonable to hope that the Feds are going to do 0:24:16.520 --> 0:24:20.000 anything about this, but it's it's an example of this. 0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:23.760 You get scared that opposing these people is going to 0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:26.000 be bad for you politically, and so you make a 0:24:26.040 --> 0:24:28.960 craven political decision to seed ground to them, and then 0:24:28.960 --> 0:24:32.040 they get more dangerous. Right the Democrats have just been 0:24:32.040 --> 0:24:37.800 doing lately, I mean least several decades. Really, it's such 0:24:37.920 --> 0:24:41.800 like a mine field to talk about being armed and 0:24:41.800 --> 0:24:45.159 being armed responsibly in the context of twenty one century 0:24:45.280 --> 0:24:48.560 United States, because there's so much to juggle, including the 0:24:48.600 --> 0:24:53.719 fact that we have basically nearly weekly uh, massacres and 0:24:53.720 --> 0:24:56.879 stuff being committed by people who go and pick up 0:24:56.880 --> 0:25:00.680 a gun from you know, a sporting goods store whatever. Um. 0:25:00.680 --> 0:25:04.840 But fascists, yeah, and they're almost all fascists with the 0:25:04.880 --> 0:25:09.040 history of violence towards women. Um. But it it is 0:25:09.080 --> 0:25:12.920 like I think, when we are talking about what it is, 0:25:13.080 --> 0:25:17.560 the actual importance on both an individual level of being 0:25:17.680 --> 0:25:20.800 the importance on an individual level of people who are 0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:24.760 in threatened communities being armed is that they cannot trust 0:25:24.880 --> 0:25:26.840 the police or the state to take any actions to 0:25:26.840 --> 0:25:29.080 protect them. And we see that because they get thrown 0:25:29.119 --> 0:25:33.280 under the fucking bus every time somebody comes from after 0:25:33.280 --> 0:25:36.239 her attack, that the place just sort of dismissed her. 0:25:36.440 --> 0:25:38.399 They just sort of like, oh, you know, it was 0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:41.439 just you know, they like stender to her, just like 0:25:41.520 --> 0:25:46.960 just complete you know, dis interest, and yeah, and obviously 0:25:47.040 --> 0:25:48.719 like this is this is the thing you don't have 0:25:48.800 --> 0:25:54.000 to There's a bunch of numerous other stories of that. Um. 0:25:54.080 --> 0:25:55.480 And then on the other end of things, you have 0:25:55.720 --> 0:26:00.119 like most of these people. One of the things as 0:26:00.160 --> 0:26:04.119 we have in our corners like scary as the insurgent, right, 0:26:04.200 --> 0:26:06.360 is as most of them are fucking cowards, and when 0:26:06.400 --> 0:26:09.200 they get opposed, when somebody shows up and throws down 0:26:10.040 --> 0:26:12.119 usually they fucking It's one thing if it's like a 0:26:12.160 --> 0:26:14.560 street fight, right, because people don't tend to get killed 0:26:14.560 --> 0:26:16.320 in street fights, and you can make a lot of 0:26:16.320 --> 0:26:19.600 money filming videos of it. When fucking when when people 0:26:19.640 --> 0:26:23.159 start pulling straps, you know, like it gets really different, 0:26:23.160 --> 0:26:28.040 really fucking quickly. Um. And in general, we've seen in Portland. 0:26:28.119 --> 0:26:30.320 There have been a couple of these folks shot in 0:26:30.840 --> 0:26:34.280 defensive shootings, and it's part of why that's kind of 0:26:34.280 --> 0:26:36.240 stuff doesn't happen as much as it was in two 0:26:36.280 --> 0:26:39.439 thousand eighteen. Um, you saw that ship happen in Denver 0:26:39.640 --> 0:26:43.600 and it had an effect on the intensity of of 0:26:43.680 --> 0:26:46.680 rallies there. When these people are it would be irresponsible 0:26:46.720 --> 0:26:49.560 to say that it's like good when this happens, but 0:26:49.760 --> 0:26:54.600 when they suffer consequences for trying to hurt people, it 0:26:55.240 --> 0:26:59.840 scares some of them. Classically, Yeah, if you stand up 0:26:59.840 --> 0:27:04.520 to them, they'll really yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I 0:27:05.560 --> 0:27:07.359 this is just kind of turned into us sort of 0:27:07.359 --> 0:27:10.760 talking about the ethics of community self defense. But I 0:27:10.760 --> 0:27:13.560 think it's something I think it's important to talk about. 0:27:13.640 --> 0:27:15.639 And I think it's also important to kind of reclaim 0:27:15.800 --> 0:27:22.360 from this kind of masturbatory fantasy of becoming a minuteman 0:27:22.480 --> 0:27:25.640 or whatever, and also this masturbatory fantasy of like this 0:27:25.720 --> 0:27:29.520 is something this is a thing I do as like 0:27:29.640 --> 0:27:33.080 part of my identity, um, as opposed to like this 0:27:33.160 --> 0:27:34.840 is a thing that I do in order to defend 0:27:35.400 --> 0:27:38.800 my ability to continue to be who I am. Right, 0:27:38.840 --> 0:27:40.440 I'm not I'm not a radical. I just want to 0:27:40.440 --> 0:27:43.280 be alive, you know, and if I'm not, if I 0:27:43.280 --> 0:27:45.160 have to de transition, I will not want to be alive. 0:27:45.359 --> 0:27:50.720 And that's that. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, Well did you 0:27:50.760 --> 0:27:52.680 have anything else you wanted to get into where we're 0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:57.679 talking to digestica? All right, Well, do you have anything 0:27:57.720 --> 0:27:59.479 you wanted to plug any place you wanted to kind 0:27:59.520 --> 0:28:03.560 of direct? Um? Well, there's yea all right, um, because 0:28:03.600 --> 0:28:05.720 that's uh. If someone wanted to at home, wanted to 0:28:05.920 --> 0:28:07.760 uh to do their own thing, the s R would 0:28:07.760 --> 0:28:12.600 probably be great receptive. I'm sure there's other organizations. Um yeah, 0:28:12.640 --> 0:28:15.960 there's John Brown, gun clubs and stuff, and other organizations 0:28:16.000 --> 0:28:19.720 that don't have names. And on a personal level, I well, 0:28:19.760 --> 0:28:22.880 I I make bondage collars and paddles. It's called bondage Robot. 0:28:22.880 --> 0:28:27.200 It's any store. It's a Bondage hyphen robot dot com. 0:28:27.240 --> 0:28:34.120 Excellent do do? Yeah? Um so bondage robot dot com. 0:28:34.359 --> 0:28:36.879 Um check that out. You're also on Twitter? Do you 0:28:36.880 --> 0:28:41.920 want to direct people? It's that's where I Yeah, Jessic 0:28:42.000 --> 0:28:47.720 Lashnikov just figured out you'll say it, all right, that 0:28:47.880 --> 0:28:50.920 is gonna be our episode for the day. Everybody uh, 0:28:51.080 --> 0:28:55.600 stay safe and um, you know, think about the ethics 0:28:55.760 --> 0:29:16.400 of community self defense. It's important. Oh boy, it could 0:29:16.480 --> 0:29:22.080 happen here, and it seems to be happening more after 0:29:22.120 --> 0:29:25.000 the last couple of days. This is a podcast about 0:29:25.360 --> 0:29:30.120 how everything's looking pretty bad these days. Um, and in 0:29:30.160 --> 0:29:33.800 particular right now we're we're here. We've got the whole team, 0:29:33.880 --> 0:29:37.640 not the whole team. We've got the team here to 0:29:37.800 --> 0:29:41.720 do a round table discussion about the thing, you know, 0:29:41.840 --> 0:29:44.160 the thing, the thing that happened this last week that 0:29:44.280 --> 0:29:47.040 is still the main thing happening, which is the FBI 0:29:47.240 --> 0:29:51.440 rated former President Trump's house. Um, and now all of 0:29:51.480 --> 0:29:54.640 his fans are declaring war on the FBI, which has 0:29:54.800 --> 0:29:58.920 so far been let's all be honest here, pretty funny. Um. 0:29:58.960 --> 0:30:00.960 But everybody's also a lot there's a lot of worry 0:30:01.000 --> 0:30:03.880 going on. There's a lot the some folks of documented 0:30:03.920 --> 0:30:07.040 if we'll talk about this, that like discussion online of 0:30:07.320 --> 0:30:11.520 civil war and civil conflict has like exploded to new 0:30:11.600 --> 0:30:15.280 heights over the last like four days or so. UM. 0:30:15.320 --> 0:30:17.280 So yeah, we're gonna talk about all of that. But 0:30:17.280 --> 0:30:19.920 but here's here's here's the team. We've got Garrison Davis, 0:30:20.040 --> 0:30:25.560 James Stout and we've got Christopher Wong and of course me, Sylvie. 0:30:25.720 --> 0:30:31.440 How's everybody doing today? I'm doing great, magnificently. M Yeah, 0:30:32.000 --> 0:30:37.400 So where's where's where's everybody's new civil war counters at? 0:30:38.520 --> 0:30:41.760 Who here feels we're like we're we're closer and who 0:30:41.760 --> 0:30:45.680 he feels like we've gotten further away? Well, it's definitely 0:30:45.760 --> 0:30:48.200 gone up. It's definitely gone up a little bit. Um. Yeah, 0:30:48.280 --> 0:30:51.000 temperature is a little higher for sure. I mean we're 0:30:51.040 --> 0:30:54.640 still not really around the averages around J six, but 0:30:54.760 --> 0:30:57.400 it's it is, it's it's it's the highest it's been 0:30:57.400 --> 0:31:03.120 around like the Biden administration. Um, yeah, I just made 0:31:03.200 --> 0:31:07.600 some ceramic armor purchases. Is where my when when my 0:31:07.640 --> 0:31:10.400 current civil war counter is at? Yes? I did just 0:31:10.440 --> 0:31:13.960 get another set of rifle plates, got some side prates, 0:31:14.840 --> 0:31:18.720 like you know, you know who had body armor is 0:31:18.760 --> 0:31:22.440 the guy who single handedly attacked that FBI field office 0:31:22.560 --> 0:31:25.440 in Ohio with a nail gun and then died in 0:31:25.480 --> 0:31:30.239 a field. Okay, before we get into that, Ricky, she 0:31:30.400 --> 0:31:34.680 can we what the funk is going on with that 0:31:34.720 --> 0:31:37.320 guy who like lit himself on fire in his car 0:31:37.360 --> 0:31:40.680 and rammed into the capital barrier and like I forgot 0:31:40.680 --> 0:31:44.719 about that. Yeah, like that might adjust been a suicide 0:31:44.720 --> 0:31:47.800 because we don't seem to have any clear evidence that 0:31:47.880 --> 0:31:51.920 it was political. It's just it's just like a really weird, 0:31:52.080 --> 0:31:54.880 like I don't know that that that's that's a kind 0:31:54.920 --> 0:31:56.800 of thing that feels like if it was happening five 0:31:56.880 --> 0:31:59.640 years ago, would have been like a major news story. 0:31:59.800 --> 0:32:01.960 And when I was trying to find new stories about it, 0:32:02.320 --> 0:32:04.400 so the first thing I did was, Okay, I googled 0:32:04.560 --> 0:32:06.560 a DC car attack and I found a different DC 0:32:06.680 --> 0:32:08.840 car attack. And then I go DC shooting and I 0:32:08.840 --> 0:32:11.880 found a different DC shooting, and like if we combining 0:32:11.920 --> 0:32:14.120 to do She's like, oh, this is We're living in 0:32:14.200 --> 0:32:18.000 a great time. This isn't even the first, not even 0:32:18.040 --> 0:32:20.800 the first person to drive their car into a Capitol 0:32:20.840 --> 0:32:23.760 police barrier and then get out and start shooting, right like, 0:32:23.920 --> 0:32:27.080 this is this is the United States. It's just something 0:32:27.120 --> 0:32:31.560 we do here is incredible, approved marked the method. I mean, 0:32:31.640 --> 0:32:33.240 it just it does kind of seem like it was 0:32:33.320 --> 0:32:36.960 just a suicide, like that one was just that's what 0:32:37.080 --> 0:32:39.720 the Capitol Police are saying. It was twenty nine years old, 0:32:39.760 --> 0:32:42.880 didn't appear to be targeting any members of Congress fired 0:32:42.920 --> 0:32:47.320 shots into the air before taking his own life. Um, 0:32:47.360 --> 0:32:50.640 no officers shot their weapons. It was very it was 0:32:50.720 --> 0:32:56.800 very quick. Mm hmm. Okay, yeah, it is interesting because 0:32:56.960 --> 0:33:00.560 he is he is no Ricky Schiffer at that that 0:33:00.920 --> 0:33:05.960 the DC stories seeks the Shipper stories, Yes, much more 0:33:06.000 --> 0:33:12.640 funny having So this is obviously you have Donald Trump 0:33:12.720 --> 0:33:15.440 get rated by the FBI, and then less than two 0:33:15.480 --> 0:33:18.160 days later you have this guy show up outside of 0:33:18.200 --> 0:33:20.920 an FBI field office, try to force his way through 0:33:21.040 --> 0:33:23.520 or try to break through the bulletproof glass with a 0:33:23.600 --> 0:33:26.440 nail gun and then winds up in an hour's long 0:33:26.560 --> 0:33:29.560 standoff before being shot to death by the FBI. Which 0:33:29.600 --> 0:33:32.880 is very funny because he so. I guess the thing 0:33:32.920 --> 0:33:36.880 about this that's unsettling. Um, that that colleague of ours, 0:33:36.960 --> 0:33:39.080 Jason Wilson pointed out on Twitter, and that I think 0:33:39.160 --> 0:33:41.600 is worth noting, is that while this kind of thing 0:33:41.720 --> 0:33:45.760 is is extremely American and very common. Um, the thing 0:33:45.800 --> 0:33:48.760 that is kind of unsettling about shiff is that he's 0:33:48.800 --> 0:33:52.680 not he's he's just he's he's straight up normal maga right, 0:33:52.760 --> 0:33:54.719 Like he's not from any of the There's no evidence 0:33:54.760 --> 0:33:56.880 that he was kind of like dipping into these other 0:33:56.920 --> 0:34:01.280 subcultures that are more explicitly like terroristic in their Nameforceman 0:34:01.360 --> 0:34:05.400 says that he may have ties to Proud Boys, but yeah, 0:34:05.880 --> 0:34:09.600 well we'll see. He was at J six, you know, 0:34:09.760 --> 0:34:12.759 so I'm sure. But I mean it's what it is, 0:34:12.760 --> 0:34:16.440 is a a guy who is a normal Trump supporter 0:34:16.960 --> 0:34:24.360 um u in the Yeah, I mean, I mean he 0:34:24.520 --> 0:34:26.840 was ultra to the extent of what he did a 0:34:26.840 --> 0:34:30.120 few days ago, and he was on true social and 0:34:30.239 --> 0:34:33.480 like he he was. Yeah, but I feel like that's 0:34:34.520 --> 0:34:36.719 not that a regular Like if you watch the most 0:34:36.719 --> 0:34:41.000 recent Jordan Clipper video, there's people doing like like regular 0:34:41.080 --> 0:34:44.600 asked people saying things that are way more absurdan than 0:34:44.640 --> 0:34:46.920 what they were saying two years ago. Like the real 0:34:47.160 --> 0:34:51.239 reality has become so detached for a certain sect of 0:34:51.280 --> 0:34:55.640 like Trump lifers, and it's just impossible to pry them 0:34:55.640 --> 0:34:59.240 away to the point where they ineffectually attack an FBI 0:34:59.280 --> 0:35:01.840 office with an l gun, yeah, and die in a 0:35:01.880 --> 0:35:04.640 shootout hours later. And and Shiffer, I mean, one of 0:35:04.680 --> 0:35:07.120 the things that you might compare a little bit to 0:35:07.239 --> 0:35:10.440 Shiffer is you know, there have been particularly during the 0:35:10.440 --> 0:35:12.640 Trump years, there were a couple of attacks on ice 0:35:12.880 --> 0:35:16.319 facilities UM that were kind of like acts of desperation 0:35:16.440 --> 0:35:20.680 from people who were politically radicalized by the things happening UM, 0:35:20.719 --> 0:35:22.800 but also felt like there was kind of no hope 0:35:22.920 --> 0:35:26.319 of of taking any sort of useful action other than 0:35:26.560 --> 0:35:30.799 being an individual going out and attacking ice. And I 0:35:30.840 --> 0:35:33.120 think this is a lot more similar to that in 0:35:33.200 --> 0:35:35.279 terms of the headspace of the guy that it's similar to, 0:35:35.360 --> 0:35:38.160 for example, like the Nazis shooting up like an Al 0:35:38.200 --> 0:35:41.839 Paso fucking Walmart because they stopped by genocide, Like this 0:35:41.920 --> 0:35:47.120 is this is a guy who was like purely radicalized 0:35:47.200 --> 0:35:52.800 by mainstream conservative media UM and and the president's social 0:35:52.800 --> 0:35:56.239 media network. He was directly radicalized by President Trump, as 0:35:56.280 --> 0:35:59.600 opposed to like finding Trump funny and then like winding 0:35:59.640 --> 0:36:02.759 up and some some funked up places online that radicalize him. 0:36:02.760 --> 0:36:05.760 And that is unsettling, even though it's again pretty funny 0:36:05.800 --> 0:36:08.600 what happened to him. UM. I think both of those 0:36:08.640 --> 0:36:10.160 things can be true, and I think we have to 0:36:10.200 --> 0:36:14.279 take joy in the times when individual maga dudes use 0:36:14.400 --> 0:36:17.640 nailguns to try and attack the entire FBI. Really, he 0:36:17.800 --> 0:36:20.920 really thought that that you can use that that bulletproof 0:36:20.960 --> 0:36:23.480 glass can't be broken by bullets, but you can use 0:36:23.560 --> 0:36:28.400 nail guns to just really well. He thought that this 0:36:28.520 --> 0:36:31.480 gets to what the communities that he was kind of radicalized. 0:36:31.520 --> 0:36:32.920 And he thought that because there's a lot of like 0:36:33.080 --> 0:36:36.200 normal gun YouTube videos where people will, like, because the 0:36:36.280 --> 0:36:39.040 thing on like gun YouTube is people will take different 0:36:39.120 --> 0:36:41.600 kinds of firearms or other weapons and different kinds of 0:36:41.600 --> 0:36:44.560 materials and see how the to interact together, right, Like, 0:36:45.000 --> 0:36:47.120 do what happens when you shoot a bullet at this? 0:36:47.160 --> 0:36:48.919 How hard it is it to get through bulletproof glass? 0:36:48.960 --> 0:36:52.319 What are ways? And like he certainly figured that out 0:36:52.400 --> 0:36:55.000 because of because there are some specific videos people pointing 0:36:55.000 --> 0:36:56.759 out that are likely the ones he watched, where like 0:36:56.800 --> 0:36:59.640 there are ways that you can kind of damage and 0:36:59.719 --> 0:37:06.240 take the you can gradually like make bulletproof glass fail 0:37:06.480 --> 0:37:08.560 by using a nail Then there are ways in which 0:37:08.600 --> 0:37:10.640 you can do that. It just doesn't happen to be 0:37:10.640 --> 0:37:12.440 a way. It's something you can do while you are 0:37:12.520 --> 0:37:15.000 standing in front of an FBI field office without getting 0:37:15.040 --> 0:37:18.880 shot to death by the FBI. Before before he before 0:37:18.920 --> 0:37:24.080 he died, he posted a few messages onto truth saying, well, 0:37:24.520 --> 0:37:29.719 I thought I had a way and I didn't. If 0:37:29.719 --> 0:37:32.640 you don't hear from me, It's true, I tried tacking 0:37:32.640 --> 0:37:35.920 the FBI, and and it'll mean I was either taken 0:37:35.960 --> 0:37:38.759 off the internet, the FBI got me, or they sent 0:37:38.840 --> 0:37:42.120 to the regular cops. To be fair to this guy, 0:37:42.239 --> 0:37:44.640 he did successfully manage to shoot a nail gun at 0:37:44.640 --> 0:37:46.560 the FBI office, and the FBI weren't the ones who 0:37:46.640 --> 0:37:49.120 killed him. Like he actually got away from that, which 0:37:49.160 --> 0:37:53.360 is highway patrol, wasn't. Yeah. He also called for people 0:37:53.360 --> 0:37:56.000 to prepare themselves for combat in the days after the 0:37:56.040 --> 0:37:59.719 FBI search and that we must not tolerate this one 0:38:01.320 --> 0:38:04.920 along other posts around people urging to kill FBI agents 0:38:04.960 --> 0:38:08.440 on site and be ready to take down other active 0:38:08.600 --> 0:38:10.719 enemies of the people and those who try to prevent 0:38:10.760 --> 0:38:12.880 you from doing it. All all that kind of rhetoric. 0:38:13.239 --> 0:38:18.799 And there's like, sorry, I like the on site thing, 0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:21.160 Like we all have this kind of joke about like 0:38:21.200 --> 0:38:24.759 people dressing like Feds, right, but it's very funny that 0:38:24.800 --> 0:38:26.719 he thinks that maybe they're coming out like men in 0:38:26.800 --> 0:38:30.479 black or something. Yeah, he's not going to be looking 0:38:30.560 --> 0:38:33.080 for like like Feds and Patagonia, which which is what 0:38:33.120 --> 0:38:40.160 they actually wear of. Yes, Yeah, if you see if 0:38:40.200 --> 0:38:43.240 you see a Patagonia vest that is either a federal 0:38:43.320 --> 0:38:47.120 agent or an Amazon executive, and either way you should 0:38:47.160 --> 0:38:55.759 be frightened either way on site stand by just such 0:38:55.800 --> 0:38:59.080 a generous interpretation that they take him off the internet 0:38:59.160 --> 0:39:02.320 for the crime trying to shoot up an FBI office. 0:39:02.640 --> 0:39:09.239 They did, James, he's not online, although like kind of 0:39:09.280 --> 0:39:12.680 bluntly posting about the terroristic attack, you carry it out 0:39:12.719 --> 0:39:17.279 on the FBI like as you are actively dying, I know, 0:39:17.840 --> 0:39:20.399 as he's doing it. You have to say, the man 0:39:20.560 --> 0:39:26.319 had the soul of a poster. He had the poster. Well. 0:39:27.239 --> 0:39:29.520 I think it's also like it's an interesting because this 0:39:29.560 --> 0:39:31.560 isn't like because like there's lots of like mass shooters 0:39:31.600 --> 0:39:33.640 who sort of who kind of have poster brain, right, 0:39:33.680 --> 0:39:36.959 but like this is like this isn't like like he's 0:39:37.080 --> 0:39:41.240 he's not doing it for the post just has poster brain. 0:39:41.440 --> 0:39:43.840 It is like this is sort of like it is 0:39:43.920 --> 0:39:47.640 it is separate from someone doing a specific like memetic attack, 0:39:47.719 --> 0:39:50.800 like an attack to entice memetic violence in the future. 0:39:50.960 --> 0:39:53.719 This was just this was just his form of communication 0:39:54.080 --> 0:39:56.960 as in his regular life. And it was and it 0:39:57.040 --> 0:40:01.680 was the Ohio State troopers that pursued the vehicle yeah, 0:40:01.760 --> 0:40:03.640 but I think that that at this point is something 0:40:03.680 --> 0:40:06.120 that's kind of bleak about this right, which is like 0:40:06.120 --> 0:40:11.040 the extent to which, like the extent to which the 0:40:11.080 --> 0:40:14.120 way this kind of politics functions is by having like 0:40:14.160 --> 0:40:17.840 you know, social media becomes your entire like social sphere 0:40:17.880 --> 0:40:19.120 to the point where it's like, well, what are you 0:40:19.160 --> 0:40:22.080 doing in your last moments is you're like running away 0:40:22.200 --> 0:40:23.680 from the cops are about the shoot, was like, well 0:40:23.680 --> 0:40:28.320 we're gonna post, Yeah, gotta gotta sit down at truth. 0:40:30.440 --> 0:40:33.040 It's it's that scene from Love actually, but it's not 0:40:33.080 --> 0:40:35.959 true anymore, right where they're like talking about what people 0:40:36.000 --> 0:40:37.759 did at nine eleven when they were stuck in the 0:40:37.840 --> 0:40:40.400 towers and they like quote loved ones and told them 0:40:40.400 --> 0:40:42.920 they love them. Not this guy you have to do 0:40:43.000 --> 0:40:47.120 on true social this this guy, this guy didn't have 0:40:47.280 --> 0:40:53.160 people Ricky schefferd no, um. I mean, so there is 0:40:53.840 --> 0:40:56.799 One of the things that people have been asking again 0:40:57.000 --> 0:40:59.440 is in the wake of this massive surge in the 0:40:59.520 --> 0:41:01.560 right wing people talking about how it's time to have 0:41:01.600 --> 0:41:03.239 a civil war. And one of the things you didn't 0:41:03.239 --> 0:41:06.000 see is like as soon as Trump got rated, fairly 0:41:06.080 --> 0:41:10.120 like mainstream mega figures who tend to be more careful 0:41:10.200 --> 0:41:13.280 in terms of their language than like the radicals talking 0:41:13.320 --> 0:41:15.799 about like it's war. You know, now we're at war 0:41:16.000 --> 0:41:18.239 with a cold civil war, and most of them, like 0:41:18.280 --> 0:41:20.880 Stephen Crowder, we're doing it to sell T shirts. But 0:41:21.880 --> 0:41:25.120 that that's still that is an escalation in danger, right 0:41:25.200 --> 0:41:28.520 because with that the rhetoric that becomes common again, you're 0:41:28.520 --> 0:41:30.880 gonna have more Ricky shippers. And I'm sure that was 0:41:30.960 --> 0:41:32.760 part of like what was going on in this guy's 0:41:32.760 --> 0:41:35.560 head is Okay, well, if we are in a cold 0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:37.399 civil war, then I'm not going to just sit back 0:41:37.440 --> 0:41:40.680 and let the FBI destroy the only hope for Western civilization. 0:41:40.760 --> 0:41:45.080 I've got to fight back. Yeah, that's that's that's what happened. 0:41:45.080 --> 0:41:47.480 And and if you're people are asking kind of like 0:41:48.160 --> 0:41:51.239 what is about to happen? What is coming next? Um, 0:41:51.280 --> 0:41:54.160 I don't think the thing to worry about is like, 0:41:54.719 --> 0:41:58.560 you know, two sides taking up arms and suddenly fighting 0:41:58.560 --> 0:42:00.719 a big civil war. That is that is not I 0:42:00.760 --> 0:42:03.560 think the realistic threat model. But I also disagree with 0:42:03.600 --> 0:42:05.759 the folks who are like, look, it's just gonna it's 0:42:05.840 --> 0:42:07.200 it's not gonna be a problem. You're gonna get a 0:42:07.239 --> 0:42:09.480 couple of like lunatics, carriyat attacks. But it's all going 0:42:09.520 --> 0:42:13.719 to be fine. Now. What is happening is, Um, we 0:42:13.760 --> 0:42:17.799 are normalizing the language of political violence and normalizing that 0:42:17.920 --> 0:42:21.400 violence is the only resolution to our political problems. And 0:42:21.440 --> 0:42:24.840 that has gotten normalized for roughly thirty percent of the 0:42:24.920 --> 0:42:29.279 voting population of this country. UM. That's that's where they are, 0:42:29.640 --> 0:42:33.120 and that is intensely dangerous. UM. It is not. I 0:42:33.160 --> 0:42:35.719 don't I don't think, and I think partly you could. 0:42:35.880 --> 0:42:39.200 There's it's not entirely bad stuff that's come out as 0:42:39.200 --> 0:42:41.080 a result of Trump getting rated. Some of it is 0:42:41.080 --> 0:42:45.040 is positive because we are seeing that a significant number 0:42:45.080 --> 0:42:49.640 of like the media people are UM scared of that 0:42:49.719 --> 0:42:52.800 to a degree, UM and peeling back. There's an interesting 0:42:53.200 --> 0:42:56.040 thing that happened just today. The article came out that 0:42:56.080 --> 0:42:59.719 apparently Trump reached out to Merrick Garland and asked him 0:42:59.719 --> 0:43:03.640 how he could lower the temperature. UM. And it's it's interesting. 0:43:03.719 --> 0:43:06.640 It's it's Garland is who for the listeners, who doesn't 0:43:06.680 --> 0:43:09.360 do not keep up with the attorney general? So the 0:43:10.000 --> 0:43:14.399 president of the FBI effectively, UM, that's not how politics works. 0:43:14.400 --> 0:43:17.840 But let's just say that and make the people online 0:43:17.920 --> 0:43:20.560 who pay attention to the way the government works, very angry. 0:43:20.600 --> 0:43:25.040 But so basically what it seems like Trump is doing 0:43:25.280 --> 0:43:27.719 is saying, hey, I recognize that, like things are bad 0:43:27.760 --> 0:43:32.920 and scary, and the political temperature is like at a 0:43:32.960 --> 0:43:35.359 boiling point. I want to try to use that as 0:43:35.480 --> 0:43:37.560 leverage to work things out with the d o J. 0:43:38.080 --> 0:43:39.640 So you could see this as a complement. You can 0:43:39.680 --> 0:43:43.640 see it one as potentially Trump being just actually concerned 0:43:43.960 --> 0:43:46.239 about the rhetoric because they're shooting more would not be 0:43:46.280 --> 0:43:48.919 a good thing for him. You could see it as 0:43:49.200 --> 0:43:53.040 Trump being kind of manipulative and trying to use like, oh, well, 0:43:53.040 --> 0:43:55.800 this is now the fact that my supporters are scary 0:43:55.880 --> 0:43:57.879 and carrying out terrorist attacks as a way in which 0:43:57.960 --> 0:44:02.200 I can utilize leverage and like um exercise power over 0:44:02.239 --> 0:44:04.520 the government, and and it's it's kind of a bargaining 0:44:04.560 --> 0:44:07.040 chip that I have in my fight with the FBI. 0:44:07.320 --> 0:44:09.640 Or you could even see it as potentially evidence that 0:44:09.680 --> 0:44:14.359 he actually is scared of potential prosecution, because maybe this 0:44:14.440 --> 0:44:16.919 is him kind of that maybe this is a show 0:44:16.920 --> 0:44:19.520 of desperation. It's really unclear at the moment what it is. 0:44:20.000 --> 0:44:21.719 I can tell you I've read a couple of right wing. 0:44:22.239 --> 0:44:24.400 The New York Times is the one that broke this story, 0:44:24.440 --> 0:44:26.840 and they're they're reporting on it is pretty straightforward and 0:44:26.920 --> 0:44:32.120 mostly focuses on the uh like claims made by Trump's 0:44:32.200 --> 0:44:35.080 legal team about like, you know, how they attempted to 0:44:35.120 --> 0:44:38.920 comply with the requests to bring in classified information. But um, 0:44:39.160 --> 0:44:41.799 the right wing media coverage of this has been really 0:44:41.840 --> 0:44:44.719 different and has shown it as like Trump is just 0:44:44.760 --> 0:44:48.120 sort of desperately, you know, trying to trying to be reasonable, 0:44:48.239 --> 0:44:50.959 and the you know, the Justice Department, um just isn't 0:44:50.960 --> 0:44:52.600 willing to talk to him. It isn't willing to work 0:44:52.640 --> 0:44:53.759 with them at all. And that's kind of the way 0:44:53.760 --> 0:44:57.520 it's being spun right now. There was that pro Trump 0:44:57.600 --> 0:45:01.680 protest in d C, which got no one to show 0:45:01.760 --> 0:45:04.640 up because it was either canceled or a whole bunch 0:45:04.680 --> 0:45:08.520 of like forums or image boards or for blogs told 0:45:08.560 --> 0:45:10.120 people not to go because they thought it could be 0:45:10.760 --> 0:45:14.160 a trap. And I think stuff like that happening in 0:45:14.239 --> 0:45:16.720 d C might still take a long time to recover 0:45:17.360 --> 0:45:21.080 after j six, But stuff that's happening in other capitals 0:45:21.080 --> 0:45:25.680 and other places and other now FBI offices is much 0:45:25.760 --> 0:45:31.280 more concerning, and I think more localized shows of support 0:45:31.360 --> 0:45:35.200 for President Trump or support for just whatever the current 0:45:35.320 --> 0:45:39.640 thing is is probably gonna it's gonna continue going with 0:45:39.800 --> 0:45:43.480 some image of militancy and right, whether that's people in 0:45:43.760 --> 0:45:47.200 Hawaiian shirts showing up with guns outside the FBI office 0:45:47.680 --> 0:45:51.080 you've seen in Arizona just in the last couple of days, yeah, 0:45:51.200 --> 0:45:55.839 literally yesterday. As you record this, um, when it comes 0:45:55.880 --> 0:45:59.000 to actual like, so, one of the reasons people have 0:45:59.040 --> 0:46:03.000 been concerned about out civil war stuff is and this 0:46:03.080 --> 0:46:06.919 is not unreasonable, is the fact that you have had 0:46:07.239 --> 0:46:12.160 Republican officials, including some state level elected officials, particularly in Florida, 0:46:12.640 --> 0:46:16.880 saying some pretty wild shit, um, including like a state 0:46:17.360 --> 0:46:21.279 congressional candidate talking about, um, we need to basically kick 0:46:21.360 --> 0:46:24.640 the FBI out of the entire state. Governor de Santis 0:46:24.680 --> 0:46:29.160 needs to exercise uh like the basically saying that De 0:46:29.280 --> 0:46:33.480 Santis needs to use Florida state law enforcement to stop 0:46:33.480 --> 0:46:36.440 the FBI from investigating the former president and where that 0:46:36.560 --> 0:46:39.560 to happen, that would be a big deal, that would 0:46:39.560 --> 0:46:42.400 be um like, that is the kind of thing that 0:46:42.440 --> 0:46:46.800 could lead to a massive civil conflict, right because vaguely 0:46:46.840 --> 0:46:49.960 speaking stuff like that is what causes what started the 0:46:50.000 --> 0:46:52.480 actual shooting in the last Civil War is state saying 0:46:52.520 --> 0:46:55.000 we are not recognizing the authority of the federal government. 0:46:55.040 --> 0:46:56.680 We're not doing a thing that the federal government tells 0:46:56.719 --> 0:47:00.160 us we have to UM, and this is some thing 0:47:00.239 --> 0:47:04.000 like there's a lot of support from MAGA folks for this. 0:47:04.160 --> 0:47:07.839 Ben Collins Um, who does I think for NBC, was 0:47:08.120 --> 0:47:11.640 posting the other day UM a lot of like different 0:47:11.640 --> 0:47:15.320 Trump queue forum sort of posts where people are saying, hey, 0:47:15.520 --> 0:47:18.120 don jr Um, we know you lurk on the site, 0:47:18.160 --> 0:47:21.640 you should cross the rubicon and you know, somehow get 0:47:21.680 --> 0:47:25.680 to santist to use Florida law enforcement to attack the FBI. 0:47:26.440 --> 0:47:28.319 And there's some pretty gnarly stuff in those posts. Now, 0:47:28.400 --> 0:47:31.439 I don't think that that means there's actually I haven't 0:47:31.440 --> 0:47:33.600 seen evidence that there's much political world for that. And 0:47:33.640 --> 0:47:35.759 in fact, one of the things people are saying is 0:47:35.760 --> 0:47:38.200 that it looks like there's a decent chance to Santis 0:47:39.360 --> 0:47:44.480 um cooperated and helped because just wants to be president, 0:47:44.880 --> 0:47:47.240 because the Santis wants to be president, that he's actually 0:47:47.280 --> 0:47:48.919 like on board with this because he wants to funk 0:47:48.920 --> 0:47:53.120 over Trump. Ye. Now, that is scary, and that is 0:47:53.160 --> 0:47:57.480 I think a more realistic threat model than the idea that, um, 0:47:57.560 --> 0:48:00.640 the Santis might have the Florida State trooper start shooting 0:48:00.640 --> 0:48:04.400 against the sis as funny as it maybe to watch 0:48:04.880 --> 0:48:08.520 Florida law enforcement shoot at the FBI, that would be 0:48:08.600 --> 0:48:13.279 pretty funny, don't pretty funny? I know, I know. Um, 0:48:13.320 --> 0:48:14.920 I don't think the sand just will do that because 0:48:14.920 --> 0:48:17.799 De Santis really wants to be president, um, which is 0:48:17.840 --> 0:48:20.040 just another scary possibility, and that would want us to 0:48:20.040 --> 0:48:26.239 be less funny to watch. Um. It's it's like, it's 0:48:26.280 --> 0:48:29.200 not great overall. It's a it's too great, it's too 0:48:29.360 --> 0:48:33.399 not great sets of choices here. Yeah. And I think 0:48:33.440 --> 0:48:35.440 if we're looking at like with the actual kind of 0:48:35.800 --> 0:48:41.200 mass civil threat is as opposed to De Santis declaring 0:48:41.600 --> 0:48:45.080 a secession or something and the Trump States trying to 0:48:45.080 --> 0:48:47.560 declare their independence. I think the actual threat is that 0:48:48.560 --> 0:48:53.080 this could damage Trump enough that he doesn't run into Santis. 0:48:53.280 --> 0:48:55.759 Maybe is and this is very unclear by the way 0:48:55.800 --> 0:48:57.640 you look at the polling. It's extremely unclear as to 0:48:57.640 --> 0:48:59.439 whether or not to Santis would do better than Trump 0:48:59.560 --> 0:49:02.920 in a in a national election right now. Um, But 0:49:03.120 --> 0:49:05.759 some of the polling does suggest that even as unpopular 0:49:05.800 --> 0:49:09.040 as Biden is right now, um, he still has a 0:49:09.160 --> 0:49:12.280 sizeable lead over Trump in any headaway because that people 0:49:12.280 --> 0:49:14.239 fucking hate Donald Trump. Right if you are not one 0:49:14.320 --> 0:49:16.800 of the people who was on the verge of attacking 0:49:16.800 --> 0:49:19.879 an FBI building right now, you don't like him, even 0:49:19.960 --> 0:49:22.760 if Biden has not done anything to help you, at 0:49:22.840 --> 0:49:27.000 least in your mind, um, you know, than than And 0:49:27.080 --> 0:49:28.600 so that that is kind of the bet that the 0:49:28.680 --> 0:49:31.239 Santis is making. And I think what scares me most 0:49:31.239 --> 0:49:33.080 about the rhetoric we're seeing right now, less than the 0:49:33.080 --> 0:49:35.960 fact the idea that like Florida is going to declare 0:49:36.000 --> 0:49:40.160 war on the fucking d C government, is the threat 0:49:40.200 --> 0:49:43.160 that the rhetoric will stay at this heightened level and 0:49:43.160 --> 0:49:45.239 you're already seeing. The thing that scares me more than 0:49:45.280 --> 0:49:47.839 talk about like we should succeed, is talk about like, well, 0:49:47.880 --> 0:49:50.200 when we're back in power, we're just going to send 0:49:50.320 --> 0:49:53.200 the FBI after everybody that is that we considered it 0:49:53.200 --> 0:49:55.160 to me, let's let's let's raid them all, you know. 0:49:55.880 --> 0:49:58.600 And that's the thing that scares me. And that's the 0:49:58.640 --> 0:50:00.000 thing that I think could actually lead to the high 0:50:00.040 --> 0:50:03.400 It's loss of life. There's there's that part, and then obviously, 0:50:03.560 --> 0:50:05.080 like in terms of like bringing it back to what 0:50:05.120 --> 0:50:07.480 we to stuff we talked about on the show, a 0:50:07.960 --> 0:50:13.560 de Santist like presidency would be extremely hostile to queer people, 0:50:14.120 --> 0:50:17.640 way way, way more so than Trump um, and that 0:50:17.680 --> 0:50:22.160 would be varying on some very dangerous and very unshaky ground. 0:50:22.640 --> 0:50:24.440 And I think in the short term too, there's there's 0:50:24.440 --> 0:50:26.880 another danger there, which is that like we see this 0:50:27.000 --> 0:50:31.239 kind of militancy from the right like spreading more and 0:50:31.280 --> 0:50:33.279 more into just the other campaigns that they're doing, and 0:50:33.320 --> 0:50:35.120 so you know, we start getting attacks of gender clinics, 0:50:35.160 --> 0:50:38.000 we start seeing more attacks and abortion clinics, and I 0:50:38.040 --> 0:50:42.640 think that's as possible. And I think also like another 0:50:42.719 --> 0:50:45.840 thing to be thinking about is looking what what happened 0:50:45.840 --> 0:50:50.160 to where specifically around the anti lockdown stuff. You know, 0:50:50.200 --> 0:50:52.120 you just we just had a whole bunch of armed 0:50:52.160 --> 0:50:56.160 people like occupying capital buildings and it worked. It was 0:50:56.440 --> 0:50:59.600 it was incredibly effective. Right, Like there is like the 0:50:58.960 --> 0:51:01.600 the net result of that and the sort of like 0:51:01.640 --> 0:51:04.279 resulting political campaign from it is that like the entire 0:51:04.320 --> 0:51:06.480 Democratic Party has decided that it just doesn't like it's 0:51:06.480 --> 0:51:08.719 not even gonna talk about COVID anymore. And like the 0:51:08.960 --> 0:51:11.719 CDC is just like pretending it doesn't exist, and so 0:51:11.800 --> 0:51:13.960 like like that that that strategy like that there's just 0:51:14.560 --> 0:51:17.640 the things again like that stuff was the actual policies 0:51:18.080 --> 0:51:21.120 like stuff like like like like vaccine mandates for teachers. 0:51:21.000 --> 0:51:22.960 It's like a sixty four percent approve of reading, right, 0:51:22.960 --> 0:51:27.040 Like the actual like everyone doesn't die from COVID policies 0:51:27.080 --> 0:51:29.880 are popular. It's just that like this sort of you know, 0:51:29.920 --> 0:51:31.919 getting getting getting getting a bunch of guys with guns 0:51:31.960 --> 0:51:34.200 to go into a capital building and then yell about 0:51:34.239 --> 0:51:37.200 it is enough of a political threat that that they 0:51:37.200 --> 0:51:39.279 can they can force the Democrats to back down. And yeah, 0:51:39.280 --> 0:51:40.920 there's I think there's I think there's an anzero chance 0:51:40.920 --> 0:51:42.279 they start trying to do this other things I start 0:51:42.280 --> 0:51:44.239 trying to do this with like hey, if you're gonna 0:51:44.239 --> 0:51:45.759 have gender clinics in your state, we're going to start 0:51:45.760 --> 0:51:49.279 occupying capitals again. And you could see the fact that 0:51:49.560 --> 0:51:51.680 and one of the things that is unclear that makes 0:51:51.680 --> 0:51:56.200 it hard to tell if so, it is unclear as 0:51:56.200 --> 0:51:58.520 to whether or not the Biden White House knew that 0:51:58.600 --> 0:52:01.239 this rate was happening, like and who knew. There are 0:52:01.239 --> 0:52:03.920 definitely reports that some staffers found out about it on 0:52:03.920 --> 0:52:07.520 fucking Twitter. I have to I have to assume that 0:52:07.560 --> 0:52:11.000 the president was aware of it, and like it was 0:52:11.040 --> 0:52:14.759 probably hint that he to some extent pushed for it. Um. 0:52:14.800 --> 0:52:17.480 I would have trouble believing that he did not, because 0:52:17.480 --> 0:52:20.480 it's the FBI rating a former president, Right, The FBI 0:52:20.600 --> 0:52:23.399 has a lot of power. But I don't think that's 0:52:23.400 --> 0:52:26.560 a thing that the Feds just do because right, like 0:52:26.600 --> 0:52:29.399 I think, yeah, you have to have Garland on your side. 0:52:29.400 --> 0:52:32.840 And if Garland is, you know, directing this to some extent, 0:52:32.920 --> 0:52:35.680 and like I'm sure Biden is aware and that might be. 0:52:36.000 --> 0:52:39.239 And the idea rector that Trump appointed, Yeah, yeah, Chris 0:52:39.320 --> 0:52:42.279 ray Um, who sucks. They I mean, obviously they all suck. 0:52:42.320 --> 0:52:44.879 Everybody involved in this sucks. There's a great post someone 0:52:44.960 --> 0:52:46.759 made right after the raid that says, look, I want 0:52:46.760 --> 0:52:50.000 to make it really clear, the FBI cannot do good things, 0:52:50.080 --> 0:52:54.080 but they can do funny things. And this is extremely funny. 0:52:54.320 --> 0:52:57.880 And I just like that specifically, some of the some 0:52:57.960 --> 0:53:02.959 of the crimes around key being classified documents and this 0:53:03.760 --> 0:53:07.160 specific FBI director are both things that either Trump signed 0:53:07.200 --> 0:53:13.360 into into law or he appointed himself. Yeah, it is 0:53:13.520 --> 0:53:16.000 very funny. I have been talking to people who have 0:53:16.200 --> 0:53:22.960 had UH security clearances and understand some of that, and um, 0:53:23.120 --> 0:53:25.520 like the ship that they got from his house and 0:53:25.560 --> 0:53:28.440 those eleven boxes or whatever is the kind of thing 0:53:28.520 --> 0:53:32.640 that like does not get fucked with and the way 0:53:32.640 --> 0:53:35.759 that Trump would like fucked with it. Like it's I mean, 0:53:35.800 --> 0:53:37.880 the fact that the Espionage Act is in play is 0:53:37.920 --> 0:53:41.640 pretty shocking. Um as is the fact that brand Paul 0:53:41.760 --> 0:53:44.000 is now calling for the Espionage Act to be dissolved, 0:53:44.000 --> 0:53:51.560 which like based absolutely incredibly based Randall. I mean, it is, yeah, 0:53:51.560 --> 0:53:53.920 it is, really, it is. Really it is a thing 0:53:53.960 --> 0:53:57.400 to watch everyone go like, you know, a defund FBI, 0:53:57.400 --> 0:54:00.880 abolish FBI just because power gets used against one person 0:54:00.960 --> 0:54:03.600 one's time, and you're like, oh, this power only exists 0:54:03.640 --> 0:54:05.719 to hurt minorities. Why is it being used to hurt 0:54:06.160 --> 0:54:09.840 me or someone who I who I look up to. 0:54:10.520 --> 0:54:12.600 There's a discourse on the left right now that is like, 0:54:12.640 --> 0:54:14.719 should we be working with the right to defund the 0:54:14.760 --> 0:54:18.360 FBI or whatever? And here's the thing, in my opinion, no, 0:54:18.680 --> 0:54:20.680 you should not work with the right on any of 0:54:20.719 --> 0:54:22.360 this stuff because they don't want to get rid of 0:54:22.360 --> 0:54:24.600 the FBI. They want to take the weapon re empower 0:54:24.640 --> 0:54:27.720 that the FBI has and they want to like deploy 0:54:27.760 --> 0:54:31.120 it differently, but they still want that power to exist, right, Um, 0:54:31.200 --> 0:54:33.200 So no, you can't work with them on that. However, 0:54:33.760 --> 0:54:36.919 if they start actually trying to remove the spion Age Act, 0:54:37.000 --> 0:54:40.560 then absolutely we should vote to remove the SPIO. That's 0:54:40.760 --> 0:54:44.120 that's fine. Like just like if they actually vote to 0:54:44.160 --> 0:54:47.880 reduce funding to federal law enforcement, that's fine. But that 0:54:47.960 --> 0:54:51.640 doesn't mean, like you you act as if they're legitimately 0:54:51.719 --> 0:54:55.600 fighting against any of this stuff. But um, when it 0:54:55.640 --> 0:54:59.320 comes to so, I think that there's some potential evidence 0:54:59.680 --> 0:55:02.319 just the fact that this rate happened that shows that 0:55:02.440 --> 0:55:06.480 maybe there are folks in the Biden administration who understand 0:55:06.520 --> 0:55:09.280 the stakes of the fight and are taking it seriously. 0:55:09.360 --> 0:55:11.239 Because this is potential, I mean, and we'll see how 0:55:11.239 --> 0:55:13.200 it shakes out. It's all still too early to know 0:55:13.280 --> 0:55:16.880 if like anything more serious than his house being disrupted 0:55:16.960 --> 0:55:19.439 is going to happen. But like, if they really throw 0:55:19.480 --> 0:55:22.319 down legally against Trump in this way to try to 0:55:22.440 --> 0:55:24.480 stop him from being able to hold office again and 0:55:24.840 --> 0:55:28.960 to try to actually punish him for his abuses of power, um, 0:55:29.040 --> 0:55:33.160 that's potentially a pretty smart move. If they have the stones, right, 0:55:33.200 --> 0:55:35.040 That's a big question is like are they going to 0:55:35.080 --> 0:55:38.160 back down because the right starts threatening to shoot things up? So, 0:55:38.280 --> 0:55:41.759 like the scary thing potential here is that the right 0:55:41.760 --> 0:55:43.680 wing starts howling about how they're going to do a 0:55:43.680 --> 0:55:45.800 bunch of murders over this, and so the d o 0:55:45.920 --> 0:55:47.960 J backs off and the right is like, well, what 0:55:48.000 --> 0:55:50.279 if we just threatened to commit mass murder anytime something 0:55:50.320 --> 0:55:53.359 we don't like happens, Maybe that's how we win politics. Now, 0:55:54.320 --> 0:55:57.560 the positive with this is that, like the way fascists 0:55:57.560 --> 0:56:02.080 succeed historically is because people who are not fascists are 0:56:02.080 --> 0:56:04.400 not really willing to fight them, and so the fascists 0:56:04.480 --> 0:56:07.279 go for it and everybody else backs off because they're 0:56:07.280 --> 0:56:09.840 scared of having a fight. Right, So if this shows 0:56:09.880 --> 0:56:12.480 that there's actually some teeth within the Democratic Party to 0:56:12.520 --> 0:56:15.920 throw down, that's potentially a sign that like they've started 0:56:15.920 --> 0:56:19.000 to recognize where the stakes are. Um, that shouldn't be 0:56:19.040 --> 0:56:21.719 taken as too high of a possibility. I'm looking at 0:56:21.719 --> 0:56:28.080 a post from David froome Um, famed centrist idiot, who's 0:56:28.360 --> 0:56:32.160 talking about how he thinks of De Santis nomination represented 0:56:32.160 --> 0:56:34.080 a much better outcome for the whole country than a 0:56:34.080 --> 0:56:37.600 Trump return. Maybe you don't like his manner or record, 0:56:37.760 --> 0:56:43.920 but he's a recognizably normal US politician. Oh no, if defeated, 0:56:43.960 --> 0:56:48.719 he'd go peacefully. Like first off, great, incredible that that's 0:56:48.760 --> 0:56:51.080 where we are right now that you're like, well, he's 0:56:51.120 --> 0:56:53.480 a fine He would be a fine candidate for the 0:56:53.600 --> 0:56:56.400 Republicans to run because he wouldn't try to overthrow the 0:56:56.440 --> 0:56:59.600 country if he lost. Number one, not certain about that, 0:56:59.640 --> 0:57:03.960 but number were two. Um, yikes. Again, if David fruit 0:57:04.239 --> 0:57:07.279 is saying something, he's wrong, right, that is that is 0:57:07.320 --> 0:57:09.839 the rule of the rule of David Frum. He's one 0:57:09.840 --> 0:57:12.400 of those kind of like thinkers in American politics or 0:57:12.400 --> 0:57:15.759 whatever he's saying is not right. Yeah, And like in 0:57:15.800 --> 0:57:19.160 the Santis like right now, is like very openly like 0:57:19.640 --> 0:57:22.760 getting his people in position to take control of the 0:57:22.800 --> 0:57:26.160 Florida like to take control of Florida's like election procedures. 0:57:26.160 --> 0:57:28.160 Like he has this guy assault attorney general. It's like 0:57:28.280 --> 0:57:30.760 he's like very openly trying to do a what was 0:57:30.760 --> 0:57:33.760 the guy's name, help who rigged the election in Georgia 0:57:34.680 --> 0:57:38.080 a few years ago. Yeah, Yeah, he's like very obviously 0:57:38.080 --> 0:57:40.680 prepping to do that and it's like, I'm sure it'll 0:57:40.720 --> 0:57:44.680 be fine. He seems like a normal enough guy. Yeah, well, free, 0:57:45.760 --> 0:57:47.760 I do want to just read before we close out. 0:57:47.760 --> 0:57:51.200 Read a few things that how how the FBI and 0:57:51.200 --> 0:57:53.280 how the DHS have been talking about the threats that 0:57:53.360 --> 0:57:55.960 they've been seeing, because how the kind of institutions of 0:57:56.000 --> 0:57:59.800 power talking about these same things is worth noting. Um. Yes, 0:58:00.520 --> 0:58:04.160 they released a memos saying that there are threats quote 0:58:04.320 --> 0:58:08.160 occurring primarily online and across multiple platforms, including social media sites, 0:58:08.200 --> 0:58:12.640 web forms, video sharing platforms, and image boards. The FBI 0:58:12.640 --> 0:58:15.640 and DHS have observed an increase and violent threats post 0:58:15.680 --> 0:58:20.280 on social media against federal officials and facilities, including a 0:58:20.320 --> 0:58:22.960 threat to places so called dirty bomb in front of 0:58:23.000 --> 0:58:26.959 the FBI headquarters and issuing general calls for civil war 0:58:27.120 --> 0:58:32.240 and armed rebellion. Um. So yeah, they said that they're 0:58:32.280 --> 0:58:35.800 they're they're looking at their looking at threats through like 0:58:36.200 --> 0:58:42.480 uh specifically and identifying proposed targets, tactics and weaponry. Um. 0:58:42.520 --> 0:58:44.680 And you know it goes it goes on to talk 0:58:44.760 --> 0:58:49.800 about the targeted for people in like the judicial system, 0:58:49.880 --> 0:58:53.200 law enforcement, government officials associated with the Palm Beach search, 0:58:53.800 --> 0:58:56.600 the targeting the federal judge who who who approved the 0:58:56.600 --> 0:59:02.200 search warrant UM, and the FBI has also observed the 0:59:02.280 --> 0:59:04.960 personal identifying information of possible targets of violence, such as 0:59:04.960 --> 0:59:09.800 the home addresses and identification of family members, disseminated online 0:59:10.160 --> 0:59:13.080 as additional targets. So in terms of like what like 0:59:13.160 --> 0:59:17.160 the attack surfaces on these types of you know, image 0:59:17.160 --> 0:59:23.080 boards and social media sites. Uh even UM. But before 0:59:23.280 --> 0:59:26.640 before Schifferd did his attack, he posted when they come 0:59:26.680 --> 0:59:30.919 for you kill them being American not a steer, And 0:59:31.160 --> 0:59:33.520 I think other kind of things that could be at 0:59:33.560 --> 0:59:37.800 play and things that are worrying me as stuff develops. 0:59:38.160 --> 0:59:41.720 Not they're worrying me, not because they're convincing. They're worrying 0:59:41.800 --> 0:59:45.840 me because they don't need to be convincing. UM. Deceptively 0:59:45.960 --> 0:59:48.600 edited photos and videos have gone viral across social media 0:59:48.680 --> 0:59:52.520 over the past week following the search UM. While guest 0:59:52.520 --> 0:59:56.920 hosting Tucker Carlson tonight on Fox News, Brian Clemide showed 0:59:56.960 --> 0:59:59.720 a fake image of the judge who signed off on 0:59:59.760 --> 1:00:05.000 this on the search warrant, sitting beside uh Is Glyssie 1:00:05.000 --> 1:00:06.920 and Maxwell. How do how do you say her name? 1:00:07.800 --> 1:00:14.720 Jis Lane? Jis Lane? You know it's it's gilling gill 1:00:15.520 --> 1:00:19.320 Gillen Backwell, so you know, showing this, you know, quote 1:00:19.400 --> 1:00:22.000 unquote meme while not saying it's a meme, just showing 1:00:22.040 --> 1:00:25.040 the picture. On Friday, a fake video reporting to show 1:00:25.040 --> 1:00:29.240 another Fox host, Sean Hannity arguing with Florida Governor run 1:00:29.280 --> 1:00:32.040 De Sante's over the definition of what an FBI rate is. 1:00:32.520 --> 1:00:35.400 But that discussion never happened. This was spliced together footage 1:00:35.480 --> 1:00:39.000 from years apart in different interview segments. Um hours after 1:00:39.040 --> 1:00:41.360 the video went viral on Twitter, the platform did play 1:00:41.400 --> 1:00:47.040 the manipulated media label, um uh and yeah, it's it's 1:00:47.040 --> 1:00:48.760 it's this kind of stuff that is going to be, 1:00:49.080 --> 1:00:51.280 you know, in terms of like you know, trying to prospect, 1:00:51.440 --> 1:00:53.680 trying to like prospect what the next few years could be, 1:00:53.680 --> 1:00:56.640 depending on who the who the president is, what types 1:00:56.680 --> 1:00:59.320 of like media is gonna be popular, How this is 1:00:59.360 --> 1:01:03.120 going to kind of impact the temperature politically and how 1:01:03.160 --> 1:01:06.160 people take in information and how people are willing to 1:01:06.240 --> 1:01:09.440 turn information into action in terms of taking out of violence. 1:01:10.360 --> 1:01:15.360 How often these little small things are happening. Is it's 1:01:15.440 --> 1:01:17.480 it's this, It's could be the start of a of 1:01:17.520 --> 1:01:25.440 a thing that becomes a much bigger problem very soon. Yeah. Um, 1:01:25.480 --> 1:01:28.680 I think maybe like in terms of the temperature rising, 1:01:28.720 --> 1:01:31.800 we should discuss just really briefly these other sort of 1:01:32.120 --> 1:01:36.240 um more or less baseless or sort of wildly off 1:01:36.280 --> 1:01:40.280 based conspiracies around law enforcement that we've seen on the right, 1:01:40.760 --> 1:01:43.720 like in the last few weeks. Um, we do we 1:01:43.720 --> 1:01:44.960 want to talk about those? Do we want to talk 1:01:44.960 --> 1:01:47.680 about those separately? I'm not sure what you're referring to. 1:01:48.800 --> 1:01:51.960 So there's there's a couple of things that have happened 1:01:51.960 --> 1:01:56.360 that have sent like the right pretty sort of crazy 1:01:56.400 --> 1:01:58.920 in the last few weeks. One is the in the 1:01:58.960 --> 1:02:02.480 inflation reduction. There's there's this part where they say they're 1:02:02.480 --> 1:02:04.760 going to hire eighty seven thousand new I R S 1:02:04.800 --> 1:02:08.200 agents right, yes, Yes, A large part of that is 1:02:08.240 --> 1:02:11.320 replacing the massive amount of virus people who are about 1:02:11.320 --> 1:02:14.760 to retire. UM, and the rest of it is getting 1:02:14.800 --> 1:02:16.320 them back up to sort of where they were a 1:02:16.320 --> 1:02:18.320 few years ago. It's not like they're going to actually 1:02:18.400 --> 1:02:21.760 hid three pandemic levels. Yeah. Yeah, so there are like 1:02:21.840 --> 1:02:23.720 seventy thousand I think half of them I supposed to 1:02:23.720 --> 1:02:26.120 retire in the next five years. They want to hire 1:02:26.160 --> 1:02:28.720 eighty seven thousand over the next ten years, so that 1:02:28.760 --> 1:02:31.880 will get them up like twenty thirty two to to 1:02:31.960 --> 1:02:35.760 where they were in nineteen or whatever. So it's not 1:02:35.800 --> 1:02:41.080 what it's betrayed airs, but that combined I think with UM, 1:02:41.680 --> 1:02:44.440 the A t F visiting a guy's house, which I 1:02:44.480 --> 1:02:46.640 know Garrison and I saw memes about in him, this 1:02:46.760 --> 1:02:50.480 crazy little conservative newspaper that were that we came across 1:02:50.480 --> 1:02:53.400 when we're reporting on a story. UM and the A 1:02:53.480 --> 1:02:57.240 t F reclassifying some think as the things that are 1:02:57.280 --> 1:02:59.200 called A R pistols, which we probably don't need to 1:02:59.240 --> 1:03:02.320 explain an the saying that they're a workaround for federal 1:03:02.400 --> 1:03:05.840 firearms or is that fair. Yeah, there's a bunch of 1:03:05.840 --> 1:03:08.840 different there's a bunch of kinds of guns that you're 1:03:08.840 --> 1:03:11.160 not supposed to be allowed to have without a special 1:03:11.240 --> 1:03:14.240 tax stamp, which is like a whole additional legal process 1:03:14.320 --> 1:03:16.840 in order to basically make sure that poor people can't 1:03:16.840 --> 1:03:21.080 own certain types of specific firearms. And there's workarounds where 1:03:21.080 --> 1:03:23.160 things function the same way as those guns that are 1:03:23.200 --> 1:03:26.120 normally illegal, but they aren't technically that in the FBI 1:03:26.440 --> 1:03:28.720 or not in the A t F is about to 1:03:28.760 --> 1:03:34.160 crack down on some of that um and so yeah, yeah, 1:03:34.640 --> 1:03:37.440 at the sort of combination of these things has led 1:03:38.000 --> 1:03:39.640 a lot of figures on the right. You'll see it 1:03:39.680 --> 1:03:41.840 in that thread. I think Rubbert shared it and I 1:03:41.960 --> 1:03:44.840 shared it of like these dozens of tiktoks talking about 1:03:44.840 --> 1:03:47.480 civil war that came out the day after Trump with raided. 1:03:47.520 --> 1:03:49.080 They talk a lot about I R S raids and 1:03:49.120 --> 1:03:52.000 about people coming for their for their guns and their 1:03:52.000 --> 1:03:56.920 short barrowed rifles specifically, which I think is the combination 1:03:57.080 --> 1:03:59.880 of these things leading to this sort of again like 1:04:00.040 --> 1:04:04.560 it's if you misunderstand each of those three things completely, 1:04:04.600 --> 1:04:06.960 you get to the conclusion that the the I R 1:04:07.080 --> 1:04:10.040 S has hired eighty seven thousand arms shock troops and 1:04:10.080 --> 1:04:14.480 they're coming after a R pistol, which it's not true, 1:04:14.640 --> 1:04:18.800 but that narrative has definitely been sort of spread around. 1:04:19.120 --> 1:04:23.280 And again it's not exactly decreasing the temperature, no, I 1:04:23.280 --> 1:04:28.360 mean just I think today Trump was on Fox News 1:04:28.440 --> 1:04:31.919 Digital and he said, people are so angry at what's 1:04:31.960 --> 1:04:35.000 taking place. Whatever we can do to help, because the 1:04:35.040 --> 1:04:37.440 temperature has to be brought down in the country. If 1:04:37.440 --> 1:04:41.280 it isn't, terrible, things are going to happen. The people 1:04:41.320 --> 1:04:44.320 of this the people of this country are not going 1:04:44.360 --> 1:04:49.040 to stand for another scam. So huh. I wonder what 1:04:49.080 --> 1:04:55.880 he meant by that. Oh boy boy, Yeah, I guess 1:04:55.880 --> 1:05:01.400 like the others thing that I mean we kind of 1:05:01.440 --> 1:05:03.360 touched on. But I think it is important to understand 1:05:03.400 --> 1:05:07.640 is the extent to which like Trump is kind of 1:05:07.680 --> 1:05:11.280 a singular figure in his ability to actually get a 1:05:11.360 --> 1:05:13.840 bunch of people to do a thing. And like I 1:05:13.880 --> 1:05:16.919 think that, like that that power I think is reduced sense, 1:05:17.040 --> 1:05:18.680 you know, I'm like he's like he's not president anymore, right, 1:05:18.680 --> 1:05:21.880 because it's reduced since j six, Yeah, since six, But like, 1:05:22.400 --> 1:05:26.480 you know, he still has the ability to mobilize, like 1:05:27.760 --> 1:05:30.480 ability to mobilize parts of the right that like you're 1:05:30.520 --> 1:05:33.439 sort of like weird neo Nazi guy like can't and 1:05:33.840 --> 1:05:36.080 he like you know, and like he he seems to 1:05:36.120 --> 1:05:37.720 be aware of this, and he seems to be aware that, 1:05:37.800 --> 1:05:40.880 like you know, he can use he uses as a 1:05:40.880 --> 1:05:43.400 bargaining chip or uses to sort of like threaten people. 1:05:44.280 --> 1:05:45.960 But yeah, like that that's a real thing. Like it 1:05:46.240 --> 1:05:48.040 is a real thing that there's an incredibly large part 1:05:48.040 --> 1:05:50.400 of the country who like if Donald Trump told them 1:05:50.440 --> 1:05:53.160 to like go die for him a normity beach or 1:05:53.200 --> 1:05:58.680 something like they probably would. Yeah. Yeah. The FBI and 1:05:58.760 --> 1:06:03.200 Dachs in their moment, also warrant that midterm elections in 1:06:03.200 --> 1:06:05.880 November could be seen as an additional flashpoint in which 1:06:07.440 --> 1:06:12.600 will continue to escalate threats against perceived ideological opponents, including 1:06:12.600 --> 1:06:19.720 federal lawenforce and personnel. So stay tuned. Yeah, it should 1:06:19.880 --> 1:06:21.640 if people I haven't realized. By the way, it was 1:06:21.680 --> 1:06:26.440 bright Bot who named the FBI agents obtained a warrant. 1:06:26.520 --> 1:06:29.320 Ye didn't bother to google what their jobs were. They 1:06:29.320 --> 1:06:31.360 were like what is what is the sacronym stand for? 1:06:31.560 --> 1:06:38.040 No one knows. It's very secret pop journalism there. Yeah, 1:06:38.520 --> 1:06:40.680 well good, we seem to be in a nice place 1:06:40.720 --> 1:06:45.360 then mm hmm. It's going well yeah yeah, start organizing now. 1:06:47.480 --> 1:06:49.560 The best time to start this was yesterday. The second 1:06:49.560 --> 1:06:51.960 best time is now, the third best time is tomorrow. 1:06:53.000 --> 1:06:56.120 And don't don't let them take how funny this is 1:06:56.160 --> 1:07:00.760 as well? There is an a lessons here, which is 1:07:00.760 --> 1:07:03.040 that like, there is an enormous amount you can get 1:07:03.040 --> 1:07:06.880 away with politically as long as it's funny. And like, frankly, 1:07:06.920 --> 1:07:09.000 we we we have we have not been utilizing that 1:07:09.040 --> 1:07:12.240 towards the potential the left end, like anarchists in general, 1:07:12.280 --> 1:07:16.040 have forgotten how to do good funny ship for the 1:07:16.040 --> 1:07:19.360 past ten years, and we have to bring it back. Yeah, 1:07:19.480 --> 1:07:22.920 it is. This is We've been given a precious gift 1:07:23.120 --> 1:07:26.000 and how funny this is. And we have a couple 1:07:26.040 --> 1:07:28.760 of responsibilities, and one of them, of course, is to 1:07:29.000 --> 1:07:32.960 organize in order to be prepared to counter increasing like 1:07:33.160 --> 1:07:38.240 attempts to impose an authoritarian violence on us. But another 1:07:38.320 --> 1:07:40.680 thing that it is response that we have a responsibility 1:07:40.720 --> 1:07:42.680 to do is laugh at how funny this is and 1:07:42.720 --> 1:07:45.200 make sure that other people don't forget how funny this is. 1:07:45.760 --> 1:07:49.760 So go out into the world and remind somebody that 1:07:50.240 --> 1:07:54.480 a fucking trump nerd tried to take on the FBI 1:07:54.560 --> 1:07:56.640 with a nail gun in an a R fifteen and 1:07:56.720 --> 1:07:59.920 died in a fucking field in Ohio. Because that's pretty funny. 1:08:00.960 --> 1:08:21.599 It's pretty funny. Welcome, that's what could happen here. I'm 1:08:21.640 --> 1:08:25.559 Andrew of the YouTube channel Andreism, and I'm here with 1:08:29.439 --> 1:08:32.840 Oh it's me, it's Christopher. Yeah, we're doing what we're 1:08:33.080 --> 1:08:37.080 doing another episode of Bead and Andrew. We've sees the 1:08:37.120 --> 1:08:40.160 pod once again. It is too early in the morning 1:08:40.760 --> 1:08:44.519 for anyone else to be here, which gives us ultimate power. 1:08:44.600 --> 1:08:46.960 But you early in the morning, by the way, it's 1:08:47.000 --> 1:08:51.960 it's eleven Pacific time. But yeah, there's there. There is 1:08:52.040 --> 1:08:54.880 no prayer of anyone else being around for this. So 1:08:54.960 --> 1:09:00.439 we are now in control here. Ha ha ha. Yes, 1:09:00.479 --> 1:09:03.920 we good. We're We're doing We're We're doing the Maniacal Lives. 1:09:04.400 --> 1:09:09.559 We're doing the podcast. We're doing the podcast. Welcome, Welcome. 1:09:10.439 --> 1:09:14.599 We want to finish the story, the soldiers story that 1:09:14.760 --> 1:09:19.880 is Quasi Bo Lagoon's life and legacy. UM. When we 1:09:19.960 --> 1:09:24.040 last left off as part of the New York's City 1:09:24.120 --> 1:09:28.840 Panther twenty one trials, Kuasi was put in jail um. 1:09:28.880 --> 1:09:32.560 At the same time, he was also developing his political 1:09:33.160 --> 1:09:39.519 UM identity in a way and recognizing some of the 1:09:39.560 --> 1:09:42.280 issues he was having with the Black Panther Party and 1:09:42.360 --> 1:09:46.000 particularly after the East Coast West Coast split that I 1:09:46.120 --> 1:09:51.320 could Quasi as we as we covered last time, was 1:09:52.000 --> 1:09:55.759 born Donald Reams, but took on the identity of Quasi 1:09:55.800 --> 1:10:00.599 Po Lagoon due to his recognition of his African nous 1:10:00.600 --> 1:10:04.760 of himself Um through his experience in the army. Through 1:10:04.760 --> 1:10:08.320 his experience in London, connecting with the black diaspora and 1:10:08.400 --> 1:10:11.920 through his connections with the Uruba Temple and so Blagoon 1:10:13.280 --> 1:10:16.519 alongside that that personal recognition and political recognition of his 1:10:16.560 --> 1:10:21.280 antitheater in politics, also comes to see himself as someone 1:10:21.360 --> 1:10:25.240 who is at war with the state, and as such, 1:10:27.040 --> 1:10:30.799 once in jail, he sees himself as a political prisoner, 1:10:31.080 --> 1:10:35.960 as a prisoner of war. While in prison, the Panther 1:10:36.040 --> 1:10:39.120 twenty one were incarcerated in a variety of jails in 1:10:39.120 --> 1:10:44.480 different boroughs of New York City, but by Lagoon, Blumon, Busheker, 1:10:45.160 --> 1:10:50.479 and another defendant, Kinshasa, they were all incarcerated the Queen's 1:10:50.560 --> 1:10:55.000 Housed attention and they organize an uprising that took seven hostages, 1:10:55.479 --> 1:10:59.599 including a captain, five correctional officers, and a black cook, 1:11:00.160 --> 1:11:04.639 pulling them from October one to fifth nine. The slogan 1:11:04.960 --> 1:11:08.320 of the multi ethnic takeover, which by the way, it's 1:11:08.640 --> 1:11:12.639 pretty unheard of in prisons where black, Latino and white 1:11:12.680 --> 1:11:17.880 inmates come together. Um their slogan was all power to 1:11:18.000 --> 1:11:21.559 the people, free all oppressed people, and so their primary 1:11:21.600 --> 1:11:27.799 demand was for speedier trials, and in this process Balgoon, 1:11:27.880 --> 1:11:32.679 again developing his antithrogarian politics solely you know, crewing towards 1:11:32.760 --> 1:11:37.080 what he would come to define himself as. Decided not 1:11:37.240 --> 1:11:41.280 to play a vanguard rule in this decision making process 1:11:41.400 --> 1:11:48.000 in this uprising, even before he formally declared his commitment 1:11:48.040 --> 1:11:52.519 to anti authoritarian politics, his primary concern was consensus for 1:11:52.680 --> 1:11:55.880 all inmates and decision making, including access to food being 1:11:55.920 --> 1:11:59.240 brought from the outside, and so that sort of consensus 1:11:59.280 --> 1:12:03.519 process also helped build his identity. The prisoners, they formed 1:12:03.560 --> 1:12:07.559 committees to coordinate their uprisings and they agreed to release 1:12:07.640 --> 1:12:09.920 two hostages, the black cook and one of the prison 1:12:10.000 --> 1:12:13.000 guards as a sign of good faith. Eventually they had 1:12:13.040 --> 1:12:15.439 to release all of the hostages, and they also suffered 1:12:15.479 --> 1:12:19.240 abuse and charges from the uprising. It was sort of 1:12:19.320 --> 1:12:22.760 a failure, but of course he didn't see that way. 1:12:23.680 --> 1:12:25.960 While he was disappointed by the outcome, he believed that 1:12:26.000 --> 1:12:29.760 the power the inmates felt by holding the state to 1:12:29.880 --> 1:12:33.439 be for that you know, limited moment was a valuable experience. 1:12:33.439 --> 1:12:36.360 It was a learning experience as an organizing So the 1:12:36.439 --> 1:12:40.719 uprising as growing pains to those who believe that oppressed 1:12:40.760 --> 1:12:44.040 people would rise up and seek justice, because we can 1:12:44.040 --> 1:12:47.000 see that even with losses their lessons to be learned. 1:12:47.800 --> 1:12:51.479 And this isn't unique to just this one moment in history. 1:12:52.840 --> 1:12:55.599 In fact, we can apply it to more recent events, 1:12:55.760 --> 1:12:59.640 such as with the George Floyd uprising. It's easy to 1:12:59.760 --> 1:13:05.519 be nihilistic. Nihilistic probably isn't best used to say cynical 1:13:06.200 --> 1:13:09.479 and say that, oh, well, the uprisings Ophelia, millions of 1:13:09.520 --> 1:13:12.000 people got up and protested and nothing came out. It's 1:13:12.000 --> 1:13:16.080 of it, really, And yet that, in combination with the 1:13:16.120 --> 1:13:24.679 coronavirus pandemic, brought people together two establish programs of mutual aid, 1:13:25.160 --> 1:13:29.800 to get involved in organizations in their local situation, to 1:13:29.920 --> 1:13:34.120 connect with people, to radicalize themselves and radicalize others. It 1:13:34.320 --> 1:13:38.240 was not a loss, you know. Yeah, I mean, I 1:13:38.640 --> 1:13:42.559 think there's there's an extent to which, even if it's 1:13:42.600 --> 1:13:45.960 extremely hard to tell in the moment, there's there's this 1:13:46.120 --> 1:13:48.240 way in which like participating something like that just sort 1:13:48.280 --> 1:13:51.519 of permanently changes you. And and main thing I think 1:13:51.600 --> 1:13:53.919 also in the sort of context of the prison uprisings, 1:13:54.000 --> 1:13:58.080 right like this is like this is by no means 1:13:58.439 --> 1:14:01.040 like the last prison of pricing that's going to happen 1:14:01.080 --> 1:14:04.080 in this era. And so I think, like I don't know, 1:14:04.920 --> 1:14:06.360 it seems like one of those moments where it's like 1:14:06.640 --> 1:14:10.280 in the moment, it's like, oh, we failed. Things look bad, 1:14:10.560 --> 1:14:14.160 but like when in this sort of like broader historical sweep, 1:14:14.240 --> 1:14:17.400 it's like, no, this was like an early uprising in 1:14:18.280 --> 1:14:19.960 a period that is going to be sort of like 1:14:20.400 --> 1:14:25.240 an early yeah. Yeah, And I think that's something that 1:14:25.280 --> 1:14:29.400 can be really hard to like, like, especially in the moment. 1:14:29.479 --> 1:14:31.880 It can be really hard to sort of like see 1:14:31.960 --> 1:14:36.720 that because it's really easy to sort of like look 1:14:36.880 --> 1:14:41.040 narrowly at what you're one struggle is doing and then 1:14:41.120 --> 1:14:43.040 you know, but yeah, if you have this sort of 1:14:43.160 --> 1:14:45.760 like you know, if if you have the ability to 1:14:45.840 --> 1:14:48.960 sort of like see back through history, you can watch 1:14:49.600 --> 1:14:51.560 how stuff like this just sort of like has this 1:14:51.680 --> 1:14:55.000 massive effect on consciousness in a way that the people 1:14:55.080 --> 1:14:59.240 in it even have a lot of a hard time seeing. Yeah. 1:15:00.360 --> 1:15:03.639 So that's why, like I'm emphasizing the first part, it's 1:15:03.680 --> 1:15:08.800 really important to develop this perspective and to study our history, 1:15:09.080 --> 1:15:12.519 you know, a radical history, so we could learn, um, 1:15:13.200 --> 1:15:15.720 we could both you know, put things into focus into 1:15:15.760 --> 1:15:18.040 the perspective and also look at the specifics of all 1:15:18.120 --> 1:15:24.240 things played out. So after Bagoon's experience in the Panther 1:15:24.360 --> 1:15:27.160 Party and the oppression of the New York Chapter, he 1:15:27.240 --> 1:15:31.240 realized that the party was being turned away from its 1:15:31.280 --> 1:15:35.080 grassroots organizing of the black masses and the issues that 1:15:35.120 --> 1:15:38.160 affect the most, the daily survival, the housing, the education, 1:15:38.320 --> 1:15:44.000 police abuse. You realize the state was using it's in 1:15:44.160 --> 1:15:48.480 coostural system as a tactic by rounding up these organizers, 1:15:48.720 --> 1:15:52.360 by infiltrating the party, by charging people these high bills 1:15:52.439 --> 1:15:56.840 and such. It turned the party focus away from liberation 1:15:57.400 --> 1:16:01.479 to fundraies and for legal defense. And so he realized 1:16:01.520 --> 1:16:04.680 he could not continue the fight, could not continue on 1:16:04.840 --> 1:16:08.360 this front, that he needed to survive and contribute underground 1:16:09.080 --> 1:16:14.560 to build a Black liberation army as a clandestine freedom fighter. 1:16:16.040 --> 1:16:19.879 As a miracle from the previous episode, Balgoon was severed 1:16:19.960 --> 1:16:21.880 from the case of thirteen of those who have been 1:16:21.960 --> 1:16:25.240 arrested originally to face charges in New Jersey, and after 1:16:25.240 --> 1:16:28.519 the acquittal of most of his comrades, Balagun Queen pleaded 1:16:28.560 --> 1:16:32.360 guilty to the charge that he, an unidentified person, did 1:16:32.360 --> 1:16:35.400 attempt to shoot police officers, making him the only one 1:16:35.439 --> 1:16:39.200 of the twenty one original defendants to be convicted However, 1:16:40.160 --> 1:16:43.880 in September twelve nine three, Balagon would escape from the 1:16:44.280 --> 1:16:48.479 New Jersey's Railway prison, shortly after his conviction for arm 1:16:48.640 --> 1:16:52.000 robbery in New Jersey. And then eight months after his escape, 1:16:52.040 --> 1:16:56.839 on May fifth, he was again captured trying to assist 1:16:56.960 --> 1:17:01.000 a fellow Panther Party member and defend done Richard Harris 1:17:01.280 --> 1:17:04.960 from escaping custody. They were both apprehended after being wounded 1:17:04.960 --> 1:17:09.080 in a gun battle with correctional and police officers. And 1:17:09.200 --> 1:17:12.400 so what I find interesting about that he risked being 1:17:12.479 --> 1:17:17.160 recaptured so he could free Harris. And that's solidarity right there. 1:17:17.200 --> 1:17:20.879 He was so willing to sacrifice himself to help his comrades. 1:17:22.840 --> 1:17:29.080 That's admirable levels of commitment. And even though he was 1:17:29.120 --> 1:17:34.760 imprisoned and was disillusion with the Panther Party and that 1:17:35.000 --> 1:17:39.960 discourages involvement or commitment to revolution. While incostrate, he began 1:17:40.040 --> 1:17:44.000 to explore anarchist politics. He received and studied literature from 1:17:44.040 --> 1:17:47.280 solidarity groups like the Anarchist Black Cross, which is an 1:17:47.280 --> 1:17:51.280 anti authority and organization that provides material and legal supports 1:17:51.360 --> 1:17:55.200 political prisoners. And I and I was reading this, I 1:17:55.320 --> 1:17:58.800 recognized that name Anarchist Black Cross the ABC. I know 1:17:58.960 --> 1:18:02.840 that because they also helped Lorenz combo Van to be 1:18:02.960 --> 1:18:06.200 released from jail. They all provided him materials when he 1:18:06.280 --> 1:18:11.439 was incarcerated, and so kudos to them for that, you know, 1:18:12.280 --> 1:18:18.280 helping to connect these people and connect these ideas. Yeah. 1:18:18.280 --> 1:18:20.160 And then in the Interos Black Cross, if I'm remembering 1:18:20.200 --> 1:18:23.120 my history right, like has a really really long history 1:18:24.000 --> 1:18:28.160 of doing this, going back to like I mean, I 1:18:28.560 --> 1:18:31.240 I know, I know they were negotiating like the releases 1:18:31.320 --> 1:18:36.479 of like political prisoners in the Bolsheviks went down. I 1:18:36.479 --> 1:18:39.000 didn't know they went that about that fount Yeah, I'm 1:18:39.040 --> 1:18:44.880 pretty sure. Yeah, if I'm if I'm remembering, And that 1:18:45.000 --> 1:18:46.920 just goes to show you might not see yourself as 1:18:47.000 --> 1:18:50.200 doing anything that meaningful. Well, I'm just sending books to prisoners. 1:18:50.800 --> 1:18:55.240 In reality, your building foundations, you and you know, the 1:18:55.320 --> 1:18:58.840 people who you influence can go on to influence so 1:18:58.960 --> 1:19:08.400 many more, so many others. So anarchism ended up providing 1:19:08.880 --> 1:19:12.479 Balagoon with a great analytical lens to star up his 1:19:12.560 --> 1:19:15.519 critique of his experiences in the Panther Party. When he 1:19:15.600 --> 1:19:17.639 looked at you know the works of like Emma Goldman 1:19:17.720 --> 1:19:20.759 and others and apply them to the Black liberations struggle. 1:19:21.400 --> 1:19:24.120 He began to ask questions about how his comrades to 1:19:24.200 --> 1:19:29.240 going about revolution. How by allowing these hierarchies to develop 1:19:29.320 --> 1:19:33.439 in their organizations, they weakened their resolve in their fights 1:19:33.439 --> 1:19:40.559 and capacity. It's like, as he says, um the cauldrire 1:19:40.640 --> 1:19:44.040 accepted their command regardless of what their intellect had or 1:19:44.080 --> 1:19:47.639 had not made clear to them. The true democratic process, 1:19:48.080 --> 1:19:50.080 which they were willing to die for for the sake 1:19:50.120 --> 1:19:53.880 of their children, they would not claim for themselves. And 1:19:53.960 --> 1:19:56.760 so what Balagud wanted was a democratic process that would 1:19:56.840 --> 1:20:00.040 be established from today, not that you would have a 1:20:00.120 --> 1:20:02.880 sitting system now and then you would wait until after 1:20:02.960 --> 1:20:06.280 the revolution to set up a different system. It's like 1:20:06.360 --> 1:20:08.400 that whole connection of means and ends that you know 1:20:08.479 --> 1:20:13.599 anarchists keep going on about. He realized that the neediest 1:20:13.680 --> 1:20:17.240 democratic process to unleash the revolutionary potentially masses and not 1:20:17.400 --> 1:20:20.479 make them pray to new oppressors. The only way to 1:20:21.040 --> 1:20:24.799 make a dictatorship of the proletariat is to elevate everyone 1:20:25.920 --> 1:20:30.360 to defleet all the advantages of power, and already an 1:20:30.360 --> 1:20:37.479 anarchist revolution has that on this agenda, one of his 1:20:37.600 --> 1:20:43.519 inspirations was a fellow clandestine freedom fighter, that being Italian 1:20:43.560 --> 1:20:49.960 anarchists Eric Mala Testa, who exhorted that revolutionary struggle consists 1:20:50.040 --> 1:20:54.240 more of deeds than roods. You had a lot of 1:20:54.280 --> 1:20:59.320 different political figures and radical anarchists, but especially those involved 1:20:59.360 --> 1:21:02.680 in insurrection, especially those like Errico Manchester, who's also one 1:21:02.680 --> 1:21:05.080 of my personal favorites. When reading that, I found that 1:21:05.240 --> 1:21:10.320 to be a fun connection. Yeah he's so cool. Yeah, yeah, 1:21:10.400 --> 1:21:13.640 he really is. I see why why Zoe Baker likes 1:21:13.720 --> 1:21:19.440 him so much. Yeah. Another influence of his first Spanish revolutionary, 1:21:19.560 --> 1:21:26.080 Jose Rutimage, organized the anarchist grilling movement Los Gesterros the 1:21:26.120 --> 1:21:31.280 avenger Once like their names Cereus, we're thought to be 1:21:31.320 --> 1:21:35.679 involved in political assassinations against you know, repression and driller 1:21:35.760 --> 1:21:40.040 raids on the military forces of the Spanish dictatorship. So 1:21:40.160 --> 1:21:46.519 people like Italian exiles Severan Severino di Giovanni and other 1:21:46.560 --> 1:21:52.040 anarchists like Sacco and Vincenti So Di Giovanni was known 1:21:52.120 --> 1:21:55.600 for his campaign of bombing as armed propaganda and soldarity 1:21:55.680 --> 1:22:00.479 with executed anarchists Sacco and Vancetti, and Giovanni engaged in 1:22:00.600 --> 1:22:03.719 ex appropriation of capitalist institutions, as a means of supporting 1:22:03.720 --> 1:22:07.880 the revolutionary movement and keep that point point in mind 1:22:08.080 --> 1:22:12.479 expropriation of capitalist institutions. To quote Mickey most, it's a surprise, 1:22:12.560 --> 1:22:18.640 too little help us later, all right. Another influence was, 1:22:18.680 --> 1:22:21.560 of course, I'm a Goldman, who was another advocate of 1:22:21.600 --> 1:22:27.000 revolutionary armed struggle, who supported her comrade Alexander Berkman's assassinated 1:22:27.040 --> 1:22:34.200 wealthy industrialist who believed in free love, which really resonated 1:22:34.200 --> 1:22:37.040 with Ballagoon. Because I'm not sure if I mentioned it 1:22:37.280 --> 1:22:40.439 in the previous part or not, but Ballagoon was an 1:22:40.520 --> 1:22:45.680 openly bisexual man in the nineteen seventies, nineteen sixties and 1:22:45.720 --> 1:22:49.800 nineteen seventies, and so that equipment of free love that 1:22:49.960 --> 1:22:54.960 Emma Goldman had really resonates with him. Balagun also recognized 1:22:55.600 --> 1:22:58.760 and continues to recognize, that black people in the United 1:22:58.760 --> 1:23:01.680 States were an into colony of the US, and so 1:23:01.760 --> 1:23:05.519 the Black liberation struggled as a national liberation movement, so 1:23:05.600 --> 1:23:09.400 began to identify with the New African independence movement. The 1:23:09.600 --> 1:23:12.840 Provisional Government of the Republic of New Africa the PGRNA, 1:23:14.200 --> 1:23:16.960 was founded in nineteen sixty eight March nineteen sixty eight 1:23:17.080 --> 1:23:20.479 at a conference of five hundred Black nationalists who declared 1:23:20.520 --> 1:23:23.800 that independence from the US and demanded five states in 1:23:23.880 --> 1:23:28.240 the Deep South South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana 1:23:28.680 --> 1:23:32.559 as reparations for the enslavement and racial oppression of black people. 1:23:34.160 --> 1:23:39.320 New Africa was designated the name of this new free nation, 1:23:40.360 --> 1:23:48.160 and at this time Balagun began to ideologically unite the 1:23:48.360 --> 1:23:53.680 political objective of the PGRNA for Independence um and and 1:23:53.760 --> 1:23:59.120 took on New African as his national identity. As he says, 1:24:00.800 --> 1:24:03.719 the US has no right to confine in New African 1:24:03.800 --> 1:24:07.160 people to read lined reservations, and we have a right 1:24:07.240 --> 1:24:09.400 to live on our own terms, on our common land, 1:24:10.040 --> 1:24:13.760 and to govern ourselves free of occupational forces such as 1:24:13.840 --> 1:24:17.559 the police, national Guard or gis that have invaded our 1:24:17.600 --> 1:24:20.000 colonies from time to time. We have a right to 1:24:20.080 --> 1:24:23.479 control our own economy, print our own money, trade and 1:24:23.560 --> 1:24:26.200 other nations trade with other nations. We have a right 1:24:26.240 --> 1:24:29.760 to control our education institutions and systems where children will 1:24:29.800 --> 1:24:33.360 not be indoctrinated by aliens to suffer the destructive designs 1:24:33.720 --> 1:24:38.320 of the US government. His position for black self determination 1:24:38.920 --> 1:24:42.120 was also combined with an anti capitalist perspective, the New 1:24:42.160 --> 1:24:46.080 Africans would enter workforce within our excluded by design, and 1:24:46.200 --> 1:24:48.599 we have the wages are not controlled by the ruling 1:24:48.640 --> 1:24:54.120 class and their wealth. And so I think this distinct 1:24:54.320 --> 1:24:56.519 self expression is very important because it was a key 1:24:56.600 --> 1:24:59.240 aspect of his political journey and how he saw himself. 1:25:00.120 --> 1:25:03.439 UM the AFROC futurest Abolitionists to the Americas, which is 1:25:03.560 --> 1:25:07.559 a black an archaic radical collective based in the US. 1:25:08.560 --> 1:25:12.920 UM they coined the term I believe Black an archaic 1:25:13.080 --> 1:25:19.479 radical in order to group and account for the different 1:25:20.760 --> 1:25:23.560 an archaic identity is that that black people have have 1:25:23.720 --> 1:25:29.320 identified us. So you have Anakata's, you have Black anarchists, 1:25:29.400 --> 1:25:32.560 you have New African anarchists, and then people who just 1:25:32.680 --> 1:25:39.000 go by bars and so at this time I think 1:25:39.400 --> 1:25:44.480 UM as a New African anarchist. Blaguna was definitely ideologically 1:25:44.560 --> 1:25:48.360 set apart from the black Marxist Leninists and revolutionary nationalists 1:25:48.400 --> 1:25:51.200 of the time, who wants to see state power for 1:25:51.320 --> 1:25:54.640 the from the white power structure of the US. And 1:25:54.840 --> 1:25:57.479 he still desired, you know, a land for black people 1:25:57.520 --> 1:26:00.439 to achieve self determination. Even as an anarchist, you wanted 1:26:00.479 --> 1:26:03.559 a space for black people to build a society based 1:26:03.560 --> 1:26:09.880 on antithoritarianism and freedom. I believe he was really unique 1:26:10.600 --> 1:26:14.840 at that time and not for God. Like other bars. 1:26:14.920 --> 1:26:19.280 He also recognized the importance of national liberation. Like Ashanti Alliston, 1:26:20.920 --> 1:26:24.800 he began to recruit soldiers for the Black Liberation Army 1:26:25.479 --> 1:26:29.840 and converts of anti authoritarian a New African politics. While 1:26:29.960 --> 1:26:33.280 in Trenton State Prison and New Jersey, he formed a 1:26:33.320 --> 1:26:37.719 political study group with Black Liberation Army members and Black 1:26:37.760 --> 1:26:42.600 Panther Party members and started to shift their perspectives on 1:26:42.800 --> 1:26:49.760 antithithoritarian politics and so that political education behind bars became 1:26:49.880 --> 1:26:53.080 the main vehicle of recruitment into the b l A. 1:26:54.479 --> 1:26:59.040 Another member of the b l A was a jury 1:26:59.520 --> 1:27:07.639 until another fairly, I would say somewhat obscure. We're still 1:27:07.680 --> 1:27:11.519 like conic black anarchists. And when he was providing his 1:27:11.600 --> 1:27:15.720 testimony concerning Blagoon's influence and his transition from Marxist Leninism 1:27:16.120 --> 1:27:21.479 to anti authoritarian thinking, he said, I became disillusioned with 1:27:21.600 --> 1:27:25.559 Marxism and became an anarchist thanks to Quasi bo Lagoon. 1:27:26.240 --> 1:27:30.080 Due to the inactiveness and ineffectiveness is Marxist Leninism in 1:27:30.200 --> 1:27:33.800 community in our communities along with the repressive bureaucracy that 1:27:33.880 --> 1:27:36.400 came with it. People are not going to commit themselves 1:27:36.439 --> 1:27:38.759 to a life and death struggle just because of grand 1:27:38.800 --> 1:27:41.559 ideas someone might have fluts around their heads. A few 1:27:41.600 --> 1:27:44.240 people commit themselves to a struggle if they can see 1:27:44.320 --> 1:27:47.479 progress being made, similar to the progress of anarchist collectors 1:27:47.520 --> 1:27:52.920 in Spain during the era of the Fascists. Like his 1:27:53.080 --> 1:27:57.360 teacher and comrade Jor Lutalo identified himself as a New 1:27:57.439 --> 1:28:04.000 African anarchist. Prison of war, Balagon would escape again from 1:28:04.200 --> 1:28:08.800 Railway State Prison, New Jersey and Maine and rejoined a 1:28:08.880 --> 1:28:12.240 clandestine network of the l A Soldiers in alliance with 1:28:12.360 --> 1:28:18.160 white radicals in solarities of Black Liberation movement. This ideologically 1:28:18.240 --> 1:28:21.599 diverse network of insurgent militants were known as the revolution 1:28:22.000 --> 1:28:26.040 Armed Task Force or r A t F. And so 1:28:26.080 --> 1:28:29.479 it's a strategic alliance under leadership of the Black Liberation 1:28:29.600 --> 1:28:34.040 Army that consists of people of all sorts of different identities. 1:28:34.560 --> 1:28:39.000 You had Muslims and revolutionary nationalists and anti imperialists and communists, 1:28:39.080 --> 1:28:42.680 and b. Lagoon was one of the few, if not 1:28:42.840 --> 1:28:46.559 the only, anarchists in this whole organization and so even 1:28:46.560 --> 1:28:49.679 though he was critical of Marxism and nationalism, he decided 1:28:49.720 --> 1:28:52.800 to join the comrades he loved and trusted in a 1:28:52.880 --> 1:28:59.479 common front against white supremacy, capitalism and imperialism. Me personally, um, 1:28:59.680 --> 1:29:01.680 and I have a video of my YouTube channel about it. 1:29:02.760 --> 1:29:07.679 I am not a left unity advocate, never have been. However, 1:29:09.360 --> 1:29:12.639 like I said in the video, um, you know there's 1:29:13.040 --> 1:29:15.839 still solidarity to be had on some topics, and sidness 1:29:15.960 --> 1:29:20.400 use and an important aspect, an important component of solidarity. 1:29:20.880 --> 1:29:24.080 His trust and to Bilagon clearly had trust in these 1:29:24.160 --> 1:29:27.479 comrades in order to work with them. You know, it 1:29:27.560 --> 1:29:29.800 can't just be this broad sweeping thing and say, oh, 1:29:29.880 --> 1:29:34.240 well's unity solidarity, unity solidarity, and there's nothing to back 1:29:34.320 --> 1:29:37.280 it up. There's new sort of connections or bonds to 1:29:37.800 --> 1:29:41.040 show for it. And of course he did have you know, 1:29:41.160 --> 1:29:43.640 political friction while in the R T R A T 1:29:43.840 --> 1:29:48.639 F his comrades. He saw his commerades is a bit rigid, 1:29:48.720 --> 1:29:50.880 a bit too rigid in their views. While he considered 1:29:50.920 --> 1:29:55.320 himself a free spirit and his comrades, despite the ideological 1:29:55.360 --> 1:29:59.320 differences and its sexual orientation, still respected him because of 1:29:59.400 --> 1:30:05.040 his commitment revolutionary struggle, because his history of sacrifices, and 1:30:05.160 --> 1:30:07.600 so the Black Liberation Army and the r A t 1:30:07.800 --> 1:30:11.040 F continue to carry out the condis signed work of 1:30:11.320 --> 1:30:16.600 armed propaganda, of expropriations of resources for capitalists, financial institutions 1:30:17.120 --> 1:30:21.439 for assisting comrades, and escape and from incarceration. At this time, 1:30:21.520 --> 1:30:24.800 there was an increase in white supremacist parlam military activity, 1:30:25.040 --> 1:30:30.760 including the goo klux Klan, including the KKK, and so 1:30:32.920 --> 1:30:35.920 the r A t F as an alliance helped to 1:30:36.520 --> 1:30:40.280 the whites in that organization, helped to gather intelligence on 1:30:40.439 --> 1:30:44.719 these right wing white terms its activities and their connections 1:30:44.760 --> 1:30:47.800 with the U. S. Military. While they also engaged in 1:30:48.439 --> 1:30:52.160 expropriations to obtain resources, they could build a capacity to 1:30:52.200 --> 1:30:56.840 resist the white supremacist groups because these vold acts that 1:30:56.920 --> 1:30:59.400 the KKK and these other riping groups are doing in 1:30:59.479 --> 1:31:02.400 the late Land in seventies in early nineties, they were 1:31:02.520 --> 1:31:06.400 murdering black children, black youth in Atlanta, black women in 1:31:06.560 --> 1:31:11.640 Boston and an Alabama, and so they were committed and 1:31:11.800 --> 1:31:15.439 organized and doing something about it. Militant commit month to 1:31:15.560 --> 1:31:21.439 doing something about it. The r t F also um 1:31:21.640 --> 1:31:24.680 we're involved with the escape of a Stata Shaker one 1:31:24.720 --> 1:31:28.920 of the most iconic of the Panthers and also the 1:31:29.000 --> 1:31:35.280 attempted Brings expropriation in Nyack, New York. Shaker was wounded 1:31:35.360 --> 1:31:38.400 and paralyzed from a shootout that they had with the 1:31:38.479 --> 1:31:43.719 New Jersey State Troopers and had to escape the scene, 1:31:44.360 --> 1:31:47.920 and as a someone considered the soul of the b 1:31:48.080 --> 1:31:51.800 l A by the FBI, her capture was seen as 1:31:51.880 --> 1:31:57.400 a very significant event, and even though she never fired 1:31:57.439 --> 1:31:59.799 a gun, even though she was paralyzed, she was convicted 1:31:59.840 --> 1:32:03.639 for the murder of two state troopers who were killed 1:32:03.640 --> 1:32:08.559 in the shootout, and so she was sentenced to life 1:32:08.720 --> 1:32:15.360 plus sixty five years. However, odinga Blagoon and two White 1:32:15.360 --> 1:32:21.679 Allies as a armed group facility the escape of Shaker 1:32:21.800 --> 1:32:25.559 from Clinton Correctional Institution Wooman in New Jersey on November two, 1:32:25.720 --> 1:32:31.800 n and I believe she's still in Cuba to this day. 1:32:35.160 --> 1:32:38.080 At the same time, the Vactorbriation Army was also trying 1:32:38.160 --> 1:32:41.360 to expropriate one point six a million dollars from a 1:32:41.439 --> 1:32:46.920 Brinx armed truck in New York City in October, and 1:32:48.080 --> 1:32:51.200 in the exchange of fire that resulted from that attempt, 1:32:52.000 --> 1:32:55.840 one Brings security and two police officers were killed and 1:32:56.280 --> 1:33:03.720 three white radicals and one black man we're also captured eventually, 1:33:04.320 --> 1:33:06.240 although he was laying loo in New York City in 1:33:06.280 --> 1:33:10.920 the Manhattan apartment, the Joint Terrorist Task Force did eventually 1:33:10.960 --> 1:33:18.000 apprehend Baldagoon and so once again he found himself in prison. 1:33:18.400 --> 1:33:26.160 But they did managed to successfully expropriate some fronts from 1:33:26.200 --> 1:33:31.000 financial institutions going back to nine and those funds that 1:33:31.080 --> 1:33:33.599 they were able to take were usually as to support 1:33:33.640 --> 1:33:37.000 the development of an underground infrastructure, to support families to 1:33:37.040 --> 1:33:40.439 political prisoners, to support political activities institutions for the Black 1:33:40.479 --> 1:33:45.759 liberation movement and general freedom struggles on the African continent, 1:33:47.000 --> 1:33:51.160 that is solidarity. After his capture as a New African 1:33:51.160 --> 1:33:55.680 anarchist prisoner of war for the the Good Time who 1:33:55.760 --> 1:33:58.559 as he spoke out to the movement for the first 1:33:58.640 --> 1:34:04.560 time again identify himself as a New African anarchist, he 1:34:04.640 --> 1:34:07.679 spoke to the public about his politics and I wanted 1:34:07.720 --> 1:34:11.439 to make his attentions clear. He acted as his own 1:34:11.479 --> 1:34:14.439 attorney in the Rockland County trial where he was charged 1:34:14.479 --> 1:34:17.200 with the armed robbery and the murders of the brins 1:34:17.240 --> 1:34:19.960 Garden police officers. And so you want to make an 1:34:19.960 --> 1:34:23.960 opening statement, and so it went as follows, I am 1:34:24.040 --> 1:34:27.560 a prisoner of war. I retract the crap about me 1:34:27.640 --> 1:34:30.559 being a defendant, and I don't recognize legitimacy of this court. 1:34:31.360 --> 1:34:34.519 The term defendant applies to someone involved in a criminal matter. 1:34:35.520 --> 1:34:36.880 It is clear that I've been a part of the 1:34:37.000 --> 1:34:39.720 Black liberation movement all of my adult life, and I've 1:34:39.720 --> 1:34:42.400 been involved in a war against the American imperialist You know, 1:34:42.520 --> 1:34:46.000 it's a free New African people from its yoke. He 1:34:46.080 --> 1:34:50.080 wanted it acknowledged that his armed actions are politically motivated 1:34:50.479 --> 1:34:55.479 to win national liberation, to eliminate capitalism, imperialism and ultimately 1:34:55.479 --> 1:34:59.599 authoritarian forms of government. And of course he was sentenced 1:34:59.640 --> 1:35:03.599 to life imprisonments. Yeah. He continued to speak to New 1:35:03.640 --> 1:35:07.920 African and Black liberation forces and two anarchists gathering through 1:35:07.960 --> 1:35:13.240 public skate statements. He advocated continuously for the building of 1:35:13.280 --> 1:35:18.519 an insurgent movement of building over tournaments communities at a 1:35:18.600 --> 1:35:21.760 hall and rally for imprison New African freedom writers. The 1:35:21.840 --> 1:35:25.240 statement was read that we must build a revolutionary political 1:35:25.320 --> 1:35:30.120 platform and a universal network of survival programs. In another statement, 1:35:30.160 --> 1:35:32.200 he said, where we live and work, we must organize 1:35:32.240 --> 1:35:35.120 on the ground level the landlords once we contested through 1:35:35.200 --> 1:35:38.080 round strikes, and rather than develop strategies to pay rent, 1:35:38.240 --> 1:35:41.160 we should develop strategies to take the buildings, set up 1:35:41.200 --> 1:35:45.160 communes and abandoned buildings to vacant lots into gardens. When 1:35:45.160 --> 1:35:46.960 our children grow out of clothes, we should have places 1:35:47.040 --> 1:35:50.760 we can take them, clearly marked anarchists clothing exchanges. We 1:35:50.840 --> 1:35:54.720 must learn construction and waste take back our lives. He 1:35:54.760 --> 1:35:58.240 wanted to challenge people to move from a theory into practice, 1:35:59.320 --> 1:36:03.240 to define in anarchy in the real will, to show 1:36:03.320 --> 1:36:09.040 the masses models of delivering water oppressors and of building 1:36:09.520 --> 1:36:14.360 a better way of life. Unfortunately, although he struggled long 1:36:14.640 --> 1:36:18.599 in prison and continuously advocated for the Black liberation movement 1:36:18.640 --> 1:36:21.960 for the anarchist movement, he died in prison on December 1:36:22.000 --> 1:36:29.280 thwote due to complications related to AIDS. So, although he's 1:36:29.320 --> 1:36:33.080 not a main extreme discourse, he's still recognized and respected 1:36:33.280 --> 1:36:38.799 in some blaque New African anarchists and queer anarchist spaces 1:36:40.240 --> 1:36:43.960 um because of his efforts in that time, because of 1:36:44.080 --> 1:36:48.559 his self identity in that time. I spoke about him 1:36:48.600 --> 1:36:52.840 briefly in my video and Black anarchism. The research five 1:36:52.920 --> 1:36:55.080 videos how it is covered in the first place. And 1:36:55.120 --> 1:36:57.599 I was surprised that he wasn't spoken about so much, 1:36:57.720 --> 1:37:04.920 considering his influence and his efforts and his She was 1:37:05.000 --> 1:37:08.160 almost like, and I hate to do this to history, 1:37:08.520 --> 1:37:10.560 to do this kind of great man things history. But 1:37:11.360 --> 1:37:15.600 the fan was like a main character. Yeah, Like he 1:37:15.840 --> 1:37:18.240 was there for the New York Plant, the twenty one Trials, 1:37:18.400 --> 1:37:22.799 he was like dropping rats and Congress. He was facility 1:37:22.800 --> 1:37:25.439 in the escape of a Sata sacre for crying out loud. 1:37:27.520 --> 1:37:32.840 He did so much in his short boost of freedom. Um, 1:37:33.360 --> 1:37:37.439 and I can't help but respect that he stood out 1:37:38.360 --> 1:37:42.360 most places he went, and I can't help but admire that. 1:37:45.880 --> 1:37:49.479 In two thousand five, the Malcolm X Grassroots Movement, which 1:37:49.520 --> 1:37:53.599 is a new African activist organization, declared its annual Black 1:37:53.720 --> 1:37:58.560 Orcus Celebration dedicated to Quasi par Lagoon, and they in 1:37:58.680 --> 1:38:01.800 that celebration they also iighlighted the needful awareness of the 1:38:01.880 --> 1:38:06.400 AIDS virus and Africa and among the African aspiral. A 1:38:06.479 --> 1:38:09.160 couple of radical hip hop artists, such as Dead Prayers 1:38:09.240 --> 1:38:12.800 Inside Malik, have also mentioned bo Lagoon's name, but his 1:38:12.920 --> 1:38:16.760 name is still not commonly used enough, not as much 1:38:16.840 --> 1:38:23.719 as other Black revolutionaries like Hue and Shaker and Mutulu Shaker. 1:38:27.160 --> 1:38:31.400 Anarchist collectives have also recognized him, have republished his works 1:38:32.320 --> 1:38:35.640 um have you know, but his his his writings and 1:38:35.840 --> 1:38:43.400 newsletters and his trial statements and tributes, and yet he's 1:38:43.439 --> 1:38:49.960 still not well recognized. The Quebec collective Solarity is you 1:38:50.080 --> 1:38:54.200 have collected works of Lagoon's trial statements, essays, poetry and 1:38:54.200 --> 1:38:58.320 acknowledgements from Comrades titled A Soldier's Story, which you can 1:38:58.360 --> 1:39:05.679 find on the Anarchist Library, And in fact, that soldiers 1:39:05.720 --> 1:39:09.799 story is where I drew from for uh the script 1:39:09.880 --> 1:39:21.040 for this two part podcast episode. I think that his 1:39:21.160 --> 1:39:25.599 efforts and not even to mention his actual identity, being 1:39:25.640 --> 1:39:29.679 a vehicle to challenge homophobia within the broader black liberation movement, 1:39:30.080 --> 1:39:32.759 because he showed himself to be committed to the cause 1:39:32.960 --> 1:39:35.439 and he exposed people who may not have otherwise been 1:39:35.479 --> 1:39:40.680 exposed to it, you know, the validity and the humanity 1:39:41.680 --> 1:39:48.080 in Aquare Comrades. He will forever remain remembered and saluted 1:39:48.720 --> 1:39:52.680 by certain revolutionary nationalists around cilanarchists and qualiberation forces. He 1:39:52.680 --> 1:39:57.439 will forever be seen to me as an iconic roun 1:39:58.760 --> 1:40:01.439 and I don't only who hope that this podcast helps 1:40:01.520 --> 1:40:07.240 his legacy to live on and encourages and motivates and 1:40:08.160 --> 1:40:12.000 strengthens the resolve of people too, Wogan and suppressed people 1:40:12.080 --> 1:40:16.200 to build a revolutionary program to challenge capitalism, to challenge racism, 1:40:16.840 --> 1:40:21.800 wherever they find themselves the master their circumstances. And that's 1:40:21.840 --> 1:40:28.000 about it. This has been a soldier's story, the life 1:40:28.080 --> 1:40:32.639 and legacy of Quasi Ba Lagoon. I'm your guest toes 1:40:32.680 --> 1:40:35.760 for this episode. If it could happen here Andrew of 1:40:35.840 --> 1:40:39.120 the YouTube channel Andreism. You can find your on YouTube 1:40:39.160 --> 1:40:43.160 dot com slash Andurism, on theatre dot com Slash sat 1:40:43.200 --> 1:40:48.400 Drew and onter com slash Underscore. Same true. Yeah, this 1:40:48.560 --> 1:40:50.599 this has been It can happen here. You can find 1:40:50.680 --> 1:40:54.160 us that happened here, pot on Twitter, Instagram, there's other 1:40:54.320 --> 1:40:58.720 close and stuff you can find that too. And yeah, 1:40:58.960 --> 1:41:01.520 I dedicate your life to over throwing capitalism and imperialism. 1:41:01.920 --> 1:41:20.600 Well power to all the people. It's it's it's it 1:41:20.640 --> 1:41:24.120 could happen here the podcast. The thing that's happening here 1:41:24.400 --> 1:41:27.479 is that once again, like a bunch of random American 1:41:27.520 --> 1:41:30.679 politicians are going in Taiwan, and this time they didn't 1:41:30.680 --> 1:41:33.160 announced they were going, apparently because announcing they were going 1:41:33.280 --> 1:41:39.640 last time went great. So yeah, this is this is, 1:41:39.720 --> 1:41:42.400 this is what we're talking about today, and with with 1:41:42.560 --> 1:41:44.640 me is James. Hello, James, how you How you doing 1:41:44.720 --> 1:41:51.200 all right? I'm wonderful and I'm splendid. Oh okay, So 1:41:51.600 --> 1:41:53.560 we have to talk about Taiwan. And I think like 1:41:54.280 --> 1:41:56.360 people who've listened to me on this show for a 1:41:56.400 --> 1:41:59.479 while know that, like, so like, okay, a lot of 1:41:59.520 --> 1:42:03.000 my family some Taiwan I don't like talking about Taiwan 1:42:03.160 --> 1:42:07.120 very much. Um I I think I've talked about Taiwanese 1:42:07.160 --> 1:42:09.400 politics and detail exactly once on this show when I 1:42:09.479 --> 1:42:12.439 was forced to for the Iguana Woods shooting, and like, 1:42:12.600 --> 1:42:14.320 I would really prefer not to, Like, it's not something 1:42:14.320 --> 1:42:16.680 I particularly enjoy talking about, which is you know, a 1:42:16.680 --> 1:42:19.960 big part about what we haven't, But unfortunately I can't 1:42:19.960 --> 1:42:23.439 continue not to talk about it because the American left, 1:42:23.479 --> 1:42:25.519 and and this is true of not just the American institutes, 1:42:25.680 --> 1:42:28.439 the British sloft, this is true of the left kind 1:42:28.520 --> 1:42:32.439 of writ large is being systematically lied to about Taiwan 1:42:32.520 --> 1:42:35.000 by a group of incredibly malicious nationalists who are attempting 1:42:35.000 --> 1:42:40.120 to rally support for their like incredibly violent and bizarre 1:42:40.200 --> 1:42:44.920 imperial delusions, and unfortunately it's working. So I'm and instead 1:42:44.960 --> 1:42:46.800 of that, I'm going to give what I'm gonna call 1:42:46.840 --> 1:42:48.840 Taiwan one oh one, and I'm calling it tai Wan 1:42:48.920 --> 1:42:50.040 one on one, even though this is going to be 1:42:50.080 --> 1:42:53.880 like an hour long, because this is as far as 1:42:53.920 --> 1:42:57.559 I could cut this whole thing down, Like, Taiwanese politics 1:42:57.680 --> 1:42:59.519 is genuinely complicated, as part of the reason I don't 1:42:59.560 --> 1:43:01.160 like talking about at it and at people who are 1:43:01.200 --> 1:43:03.120 giving you simple answers to what's happening in Taiwan are 1:43:03.200 --> 1:43:05.320 lying to you. This is the best I can do, 1:43:05.760 --> 1:43:07.519 and it this is this is like the length of 1:43:07.520 --> 1:43:13.280 a Battels episode. So nice, I'm excited. Yeah, So well, 1:43:13.320 --> 1:43:15.639 welcome to tai Won one on one. Um. The beginning 1:43:15.680 --> 1:43:17.360 of Tie one one on one is that Taiwan is 1:43:17.360 --> 1:43:20.599 a series of islands off the coast of China. And yes, 1:43:20.720 --> 1:43:23.000 there are a bunch of islands. Nobody talks about this 1:43:23.360 --> 1:43:27.439 like because again, the people who talk about Taiwan like 1:43:27.479 --> 1:43:30.880 couldn't find their own ass on a map, so you know, 1:43:32.080 --> 1:43:33.840 there there, there, there's a bunch of islands. There's one 1:43:33.880 --> 1:43:38.680 big one that there's several like a lot of smaller ones. Um. Now, 1:43:39.200 --> 1:43:41.519 one of the sort of fundamental principles of not just 1:43:41.600 --> 1:43:43.880 being on the left, but like being a decent person 1:43:44.160 --> 1:43:47.640 is self determination. And you know, self determination on on 1:43:47.720 --> 1:43:50.479 a very basic level is that people have the right 1:43:50.560 --> 1:43:53.000 to choose how they want to live, and in a 1:43:53.040 --> 1:43:55.920 more immediate political context, they have the right to choose 1:43:55.960 --> 1:43:58.040 how they want to organize their governments and who they 1:43:58.120 --> 1:44:01.559 do and don't want to be ruled by. So okay, well, 1:44:01.640 --> 1:44:05.120 what are the actual numbers in Taiwan? Say, well, okay, 1:44:05.160 --> 1:44:08.040 we we we have recent pulling from the National Chung 1:44:08.160 --> 1:44:12.040 Chi University's elect Election Studies Center which says that a 1:44:12.120 --> 1:44:15.879 grand total of six point six percent of Taiwan's population 1:44:15.960 --> 1:44:20.560 wants unification with China. The overwhelming majority of people in 1:44:20.640 --> 1:44:28.040 Taiwan eight want to just maintain the status quo, which, yeah, 1:44:28.040 --> 1:44:30.200 I guess I said. So the status quo right now 1:44:30.479 --> 1:44:36.720 is that like China claims that it is the sole 1:44:36.840 --> 1:44:43.400 legitimate government of Taiwan. UM, Taiwan like technically legally claims 1:44:43.560 --> 1:44:45.960 that they are the sole legitimate government China. Nobody actually 1:44:46.000 --> 1:44:50.599 believes that anymore. Like, if if you scoured the entirety 1:44:50.640 --> 1:44:52.639 of Taiwan, you might find six dudes in a bunker 1:44:53.120 --> 1:44:56.640 who still believe that, like they're the real government of Tchina. Like, 1:44:57.320 --> 1:45:00.479 the actual status quo is that Taiwan is basically de 1:45:00.600 --> 1:45:05.320 fact is like this, Taiwan is de factoway self governing 1:45:05.400 --> 1:45:09.679 policy that has elections and stuff, And yeah, everyone gets 1:45:09.680 --> 1:45:12.760 incredibly mad about this. Most people want to preserve the 1:45:12.800 --> 1:45:16.080 status quo. Um inside of the people who want to 1:45:16.120 --> 1:45:18.800 maintain the status quo, you have, you know, it's like 1:45:19.320 --> 1:45:25.800 like basically for for three different options. Basically, so there's 1:45:25.880 --> 1:45:27.800 very similar numbers of people who either want to like 1:45:28.479 --> 1:45:31.120 decide the formal status of Taiwan, like is an independent 1:45:31.160 --> 1:45:32.519 country as a part of China that if you want 1:45:32.520 --> 1:45:34.400 to kick it down the road. Some of them want 1:45:34.400 --> 1:45:36.559 to keep the status quo indefinitely, and some of them 1:45:36.600 --> 1:45:39.840 want to move towards full independence like later on. But 1:45:40.560 --> 1:45:45.240 overwhelmingly what people want in Taiwan is for nothing to happen. Now, 1:45:45.600 --> 1:45:47.599 if this were a saying in rational world, that would 1:45:47.600 --> 1:45:49.439 be the end of the episode, right, Taiwan doesn't want 1:45:49.439 --> 1:45:51.679 to be ruled by China, Like okay, well that's okay, 1:45:51.720 --> 1:45:54.000 that's the right, they have the right self determination. That's it, 1:45:54.280 --> 1:45:56.640 case closed, end of story. It literally doesn't matter what 1:45:57.120 --> 1:46:00.880 the Chinese government thinks about whether it's should control Taiwan 1:46:00.960 --> 1:46:03.000 because again, Taiwan doesn't want to be rolled by China. 1:46:04.000 --> 1:46:07.960 And because a British person, I maybe I maybe you 1:46:07.960 --> 1:46:10.720 ought to like not contribute further to that discussion. Yeah, 1:46:11.360 --> 1:46:12.960 you know, I mean, and I mean, you know, there's 1:46:12.960 --> 1:46:15.960 there's there's this whole thing that exists right where when 1:46:16.040 --> 1:46:18.200 when you when you force your role on another population, 1:46:18.280 --> 1:46:22.799 it is called imperialism considered to be bad and anyway 1:46:22.800 --> 1:46:25.479 and everything is it's still bad even if everyone inside 1:46:25.520 --> 1:46:27.960 the imperial power thinks that it's good. Like if every 1:46:28.000 --> 1:46:30.080 person in the US suddenly decided tomorrow but they wanted 1:46:30.120 --> 1:46:32.840 to invade Cuba, like, it wouldn't make it morally right 1:46:33.000 --> 1:46:35.280 because people in Cuba don't want to people by the US, 1:46:35.760 --> 1:46:38.960 which we've done before. But it's true. Yeah, this is 1:46:39.040 --> 1:46:40.960 partially why I picked Cuba as example, because we really 1:46:41.000 --> 1:46:43.880 we did this, We we really did like kill an 1:46:43.960 --> 1:46:47.240 enormous number of people trying did yeah, based on both 1:46:47.280 --> 1:46:50.720 ship that people made up and portrayed as news, that 1:46:51.200 --> 1:46:55.800 was the best speculation. Yeah. But you know, as we 1:46:55.840 --> 1:46:57.040 can tell by the fact that the U. S Has 1:46:57.080 --> 1:46:59.839 invaded Cuba, we do not live in a saying irrational. 1:47:00.200 --> 1:47:02.360 We live in hell. And this means that I have 1:47:02.400 --> 1:47:04.639 a talk about a bunch of just absolutely bullshit arguments 1:47:04.680 --> 1:47:07.280 that a bunch of nationalist dip ships made up justify imperialism. 1:47:09.680 --> 1:47:12.280 So all right, this is where we start going into 1:47:12.320 --> 1:47:15.840 Taiwanese history. Um So, the starting point of any actual 1:47:15.920 --> 1:47:18.120 history of Taiwan that's worth a single ship is Taiwan's 1:47:18.160 --> 1:47:22.240 indigenous population. And it is incredibly important to understand from 1:47:22.240 --> 1:47:26.479 the outset. The indigenous population of Taiwan is not Chinese. 1:47:26.640 --> 1:47:29.479 They are not ethnically Chinese, they are not linguistically Chinese, 1:47:29.479 --> 1:47:31.640 they are not culturally Chinese. They are not any of 1:47:31.720 --> 1:47:34.280 these things. But literally any definition of the word Chinese, 1:47:34.320 --> 1:47:38.640 you can imagine they are not Chinese. Um this, this population, 1:47:38.760 --> 1:47:43.040 this indigenous population is austron Nesian. It's it's an Austronesian 1:47:43.080 --> 1:47:46.200 people are population stretches basically from like it's it's an 1:47:46.280 --> 1:47:50.080 enormous screw of people across specific stretches from like Madagascar 1:47:50.120 --> 1:47:53.439 all the way to like Hawaii, and that that that 1:47:53.680 --> 1:47:56.479 those are the people who who who who live on 1:47:56.520 --> 1:47:59.559 Taiwan and have lived on Taiwan for six thousand years. 1:48:02.560 --> 1:48:06.120 And you know, if if you read like CCP accounts 1:48:06.120 --> 1:48:08.960 of Taiwanese history, right, you'll see them they they won't 1:48:09.000 --> 1:48:10.519 talk about the fact that there again there's been an 1:48:10.520 --> 1:48:14.160 indigenous population that has lived in Taiwan for six thousand years. Um, 1:48:14.280 --> 1:48:16.240 what you'll see references to you are like in like 1:48:16.320 --> 1:48:19.280 the Suiti and like Sung dynasties, people like sent troops 1:48:19.320 --> 1:48:22.120 to Taiwan, and then the people will be like, oh yeah, 1:48:22.240 --> 1:48:25.880 no they they they they they governed Taiwan and they 1:48:25.960 --> 1:48:27.519 ruled it. It was a part of China and like 1:48:27.560 --> 1:48:30.360 ancient times, like this is all bullshit. Like basically what 1:48:30.400 --> 1:48:33.479 would happen is periodically, every like a few hundred years, 1:48:34.080 --> 1:48:35.880 some Chinese leader would be like we should send some 1:48:35.960 --> 1:48:37.680 people to that island and they went there and we're 1:48:37.720 --> 1:48:41.960 like this sucks, and they all left, but you know, yeah, 1:48:42.000 --> 1:48:43.439 and and and and you know, like okay, so like 1:48:43.479 --> 1:48:45.200 these guys they're like okay, this thing, this thing sucks. 1:48:45.280 --> 1:48:48.200 They leave and the indigenous population continues going like you know, 1:48:48.320 --> 1:48:51.000 goes back to dude, like their normal thing, right, Like 1:48:51.120 --> 1:48:54.000 this is the the the actual history of who has 1:48:54.040 --> 1:48:56.960 controlled Taiwan for almost this entire history is that it 1:48:57.000 --> 1:49:00.519 was controlled by sutigenous population. But in in sixteen twenty four, 1:49:01.280 --> 1:49:05.559 colonial powers start getting more involved and the Dutch sees 1:49:05.640 --> 1:49:08.160 control of Taiwan. Well, okay, so the Dutch taking most 1:49:08.160 --> 1:49:10.080 of Taiwan. There's a part of Taiwan in the north 1:49:10.120 --> 1:49:13.920 that's ruled about the Spanish, and they do like a 1:49:14.000 --> 1:49:17.439 bunch of just like horrible, like unspeakable crimes to the 1:49:17.479 --> 1:49:22.320 indigenous population before they ran out by like basically like 1:49:22.439 --> 1:49:26.920 a fragment of the dying like Chinese Ming dynasty. And 1:49:27.040 --> 1:49:30.800 so yeah, so in two this guy whose name okay, so, 1:49:30.880 --> 1:49:32.280 she has like a name that he's known by in 1:49:32.320 --> 1:49:34.479 the West that I genuinely have no idea how to pronounce, 1:49:34.560 --> 1:49:37.479 because this the name that he's known by in the West, 1:49:37.560 --> 1:49:40.160 I think is a Dutch translation of his title and 1:49:40.240 --> 1:49:44.080 not like his name his baffling I okay, Like, I 1:49:44.240 --> 1:49:47.720 think the Mandarin version of his title is something like 1:49:49.280 --> 1:49:54.680 shingy h. The Dutch somehow turned that into what I'm 1:49:54.720 --> 1:49:59.960 going to interpret as coachinga like it's baffling, it's a 1:50:00.120 --> 1:50:03.200 make any sense. Their transliteration is is nonsense. But yeah, 1:50:03.200 --> 1:50:05.200 So there's this guy. You'll you'll see you'll see his 1:50:05.320 --> 1:50:09.879 name written as like coaching u um, and he's described 1:50:09.920 --> 1:50:12.200 alternately as sort of like you know, You'll see some 1:50:12.240 --> 1:50:13.800 descriptions of him, which will be like he is a 1:50:13.920 --> 1:50:17.960 loyalist ming general um and that's kind of true, like 1:50:18.240 --> 1:50:21.439 sort of. You will also see descriptions of him that 1:50:21.560 --> 1:50:23.960 call him a pirate warlord, which is like also true. 1:50:25.160 --> 1:50:28.320 And you will also see nationalists like Chinese nationalist celebrate 1:50:28.400 --> 1:50:30.720 him as like an anti colonial hero and call him 1:50:30.800 --> 1:50:33.040 like running out the Dutchess like the liberation of Taiwan 1:50:33.120 --> 1:50:37.640 and like that's not true, um, like, which this is 1:50:37.720 --> 1:50:42.599 not true, Like I've I've I've seen people like from 1:50:42.680 --> 1:50:45.559 Taiwan like who do stuff with the digenospopulation like I've 1:50:45.560 --> 1:50:47.360 I've seen them call I've seen them call him by 1:50:47.800 --> 1:50:52.599 Taiwan's Christopher Columbus. So this is how this is going. Um. Wait, 1:50:52.720 --> 1:50:55.720 so we're saying that changing from one colonial power to 1:50:55.760 --> 1:51:00.479 another it is not liberation. No, it turns out and fascinating. Yeah, 1:51:00.760 --> 1:51:03.439 you can tell it's not that not liberation because you know, 1:51:03.560 --> 1:51:05.080 like a lot of people like actually, like you know, 1:51:05.280 --> 1:51:07.680 do believe that, like, hey, it's gonna be less bad 1:51:07.760 --> 1:51:09.120 for us under this guy than it is going to 1:51:09.160 --> 1:51:11.080 be on for the Dutch. It is kind of less bad. 1:51:11.120 --> 1:51:12.439 Like there are a bunch of indigenous people who go 1:51:12.520 --> 1:51:15.880 who fight with uh coaching gun like you know, and 1:51:16.000 --> 1:51:18.640 he he helps they helped him defeat the Dutch. But 1:51:19.200 --> 1:51:22.040 what what he does instead of like you know, freeing 1:51:22.200 --> 1:51:24.840 the people there is he maintains the Dutch colonial system 1:51:25.200 --> 1:51:27.639 while basically just seizing Taiwan to run his court from 1:51:28.960 --> 1:51:31.519 and you know, like Dutch colonial rule. Okay, so like 1:51:31.560 --> 1:51:33.760 Dutch colonial rule is over, but what if we're placed 1:51:33.800 --> 1:51:36.240 by is the rule of an independent pirate warlord state. 1:51:37.360 --> 1:51:40.040 It sounds fun, I mean, it kind of is, like 1:51:40.560 --> 1:51:42.200 I mean, there's this whole so okay. So the kind 1:51:42.200 --> 1:51:45.680 of background of this is that, like the Hunters, the 1:51:45.720 --> 1:51:48.479 Mean Dynasty is falling apart. The Mean Dynasty had ruled 1:51:48.560 --> 1:51:51.840 China since they ever threw the Mongols basically, and but 1:51:52.000 --> 1:51:54.439 like they're they're imploding. There's a bunch of revolutions going on. 1:51:55.320 --> 1:51:58.200 There they are in the process of getting eventually getting 1:51:58.280 --> 1:52:02.200 knocked off by um the Ching dynasty, who a group 1:52:02.240 --> 1:52:04.320 of people from Manchuria who we will be getting to 1:52:04.520 --> 1:52:06.840 in a second. Yeah, this guy is like technically a 1:52:06.920 --> 1:52:08.960 main general, but he's sort of not and he's he's 1:52:08.960 --> 1:52:10.600 doing this sort of pilot warlord stuff. But then he 1:52:10.680 --> 1:52:13.360 like he sets up like his own dynasty, like very 1:52:13.400 --> 1:52:18.200 short lived dynasty there. And this is the first time 1:52:18.400 --> 1:52:21.439 that there's been like actual political control of Taiwan by 1:52:21.479 --> 1:52:23.960 any kind of Chinese entity, right like the like the 1:52:24.200 --> 1:52:27.320 weird dipshit armies that like China was sending in like 1:52:27.400 --> 1:52:29.280 the Song dynasty, Like they don't they don't actually like 1:52:29.320 --> 1:52:31.000 set up a government, right, Like they're just kind of 1:52:31.000 --> 1:52:32.800 there forbid they leave. This is the first time like 1:52:32.840 --> 1:52:34.960 they actually conquered the island and rule it as like 1:52:35.520 --> 1:52:37.040 a political enger. And even then it's kind of a 1:52:37.120 --> 1:52:38.800 half as conquest, like there's a lot of places they 1:52:38.880 --> 1:52:41.160 kind of just like they're just like, yeah, okay, we're 1:52:41.160 --> 1:52:45.639 just not gonna bother with this. But yeah, and you know, again, 1:52:45.680 --> 1:52:48.120 like this is the first time this has happened, and 1:52:48.200 --> 1:52:50.759 it's not like the Chinese state, right it's a pirate, 1:52:50.840 --> 1:52:54.120 wal Mart and his descendants get like knocked off by 1:52:54.160 --> 1:52:58.080 the Chain dynasty in sixteen three, and this is the 1:52:58.080 --> 1:53:01.080 first time like a real Chinese government has controlled Taiwan 1:53:02.160 --> 1:53:05.760 um because bye bye bye bye bye. Sixteen eighty three, 1:53:06.000 --> 1:53:08.960 the dynasty has finished taking overall of China or all 1:53:09.040 --> 1:53:10.839 all of what used to be like the main dynasty 1:53:10.840 --> 1:53:14.519 in China. And this is the period that Chinese nationals 1:53:14.600 --> 1:53:17.280 appoint to and say like no, no, no, really really 1:53:17.360 --> 1:53:20.160 hold on, hold on, uh, Taiwan actually is part of 1:53:20.280 --> 1:53:23.400 China because we conquered it in like sixteen eighty three, 1:53:24.920 --> 1:53:29.800 which you know, okay, yeah, yeah, this is this is 1:53:29.840 --> 1:53:32.600 a part of Taiwan's China's ancient times. Yeah that this 1:53:32.640 --> 1:53:34.880 place we conquered in sixteen eighty three, which ignores also 1:53:34.920 --> 1:53:38.559 again the previous five thousand, four hundred years where Taiwan 1:53:38.600 --> 1:53:43.240 was rule by the insdigenous people. It's it's baffling nationalist 1:53:43.280 --> 1:53:46.760 brain words stuff, yep. That has worked historically for other 1:53:46.800 --> 1:53:48.920 countries not to be this one and the one I'm from. 1:53:49.040 --> 1:53:51.320 But make it right. Yeah, well, and then you'll you'll 1:53:51.320 --> 1:53:53.439 get people arguing this is like well, how like like 1:53:53.520 --> 1:53:55.960 how how is this different? From the U S. It's like, well, 1:53:56.040 --> 1:53:58.760 here's the thing. I am a leftist and I am 1:53:58.800 --> 1:54:01.160 capable of understanding the multiple things can be bad at 1:54:01.200 --> 1:54:03.920 the same time, especially when they're bad in the same way. 1:54:04.960 --> 1:54:07.360 Like wow, hey, maybe these are all settler qualities. We 1:54:07.400 --> 1:54:11.679 should destroy them, Okay, But we should actually talk about 1:54:11.680 --> 1:54:14.880 the Chin dynasty a bit, because a lot of what 1:54:15.600 --> 1:54:19.240 Chinese nationalism draws from is the sort of imperial expansion 1:54:19.280 --> 1:54:20.840 of the Chin Chinese. Even though the Ching are the 1:54:20.920 --> 1:54:24.160 Ching are not like a Han Chinese dynasty. Um, they're 1:54:24.439 --> 1:54:28.320 like ethnically they're from a different ethnic group. But yeah, 1:54:28.400 --> 1:54:31.320 I mean it's said, it's it's the like the the 1:54:31.439 --> 1:54:33.920 Ching dynasty is a Manchou dynasty ruled by the people 1:54:34.120 --> 1:54:38.160 like the Manchin cendamnentaria. But I think like insofar as 1:54:38.200 --> 1:54:39.920 people think about the Chin dynasty, they tend to think 1:54:39.920 --> 1:54:41.640 about like the Late Chain dynasty Like this is like, 1:54:41.720 --> 1:54:45.000 you know, like the eight hundred Chang dynasty is a disaster, right, 1:54:45.120 --> 1:54:47.680 Like they lose the Opium Wars, they could beat by Japan. 1:54:47.880 --> 1:54:50.040 This is the whole sort of century humiliation thing has 1:54:50.080 --> 1:54:52.760 a lot to do with like Ching imperial decline. But 1:54:54.080 --> 1:54:58.480 you know that that's like the eighteen hundreds Chin, the 1:54:58.640 --> 1:55:01.640 seventeen hundreds change actually in the sixty cent unders Chang 1:55:01.840 --> 1:55:06.120 is an incredibly dynamic and you know, incredibly militant and 1:55:06.160 --> 1:55:09.800 expansionist empire. Um here, here's I'm gonna I'm gonna read 1:55:09.800 --> 1:55:13.640 a passage from the book Taiwan's Imagine Geographies. Having annexed 1:55:13.680 --> 1:55:16.440 Taiwan in sixteen eighty four, the Ching turned its attention 1:55:16.480 --> 1:55:21.080 to Central Asia, pacifying quote quote unquote pacifying the Mongols, 1:55:21.120 --> 1:55:23.640 and bringing eastern Turkistan and lass of the capital of 1:55:23.680 --> 1:55:27.280 Tibet under Chin rule. The Ching further expanded its control 1:55:27.480 --> 1:55:31.080 in south and southwest China, subjugating various non Chinese peoples. 1:55:31.120 --> 1:55:34.040 Of this reason to Ching domination at its height in 1:55:34.120 --> 1:55:40.440 the eighteenth century, Ching influence extended into Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Thailand, Burman, Nepal, 1:55:40.880 --> 1:55:43.160 all of which came under the suicerenity of the Empire. 1:55:43.640 --> 1:55:46.200 By eighteen sixty, the Ching had achieved the incredible feat 1:55:46.200 --> 1:55:49.520 of doubling the size of the empire's territory, bringing various 1:55:49.600 --> 1:55:52.600 non Chinese frontier people under its rule. The impact of 1:55:52.720 --> 1:55:56.680 changing expansionism was thus was thus tremendous as the chain 1:55:56.800 --> 1:55:59.800 not only redefined the territorial boundaries of China, but also 1:56:00.160 --> 1:56:03.800 refashioned China as a multi ethnic realm as a multi 1:56:03.840 --> 1:56:07.840 ethnic realm, shifting the traditional border between Chinese Hua and 1:56:07.960 --> 1:56:12.720 Barbarian Ye. In doing so, the Ching created an image 1:56:12.720 --> 1:56:15.160 of China that is vastly different from that of the Ming. 1:56:17.480 --> 1:56:20.120 And I think I think it's really important to understand 1:56:20.880 --> 1:56:23.880 what kinds of empire this is, which is to say 1:56:23.920 --> 1:56:27.680 that the Change dynasty is an incredibly brutal colonial power 1:56:27.840 --> 1:56:31.120 even like by the standards of like that's like, you know, okay, 1:56:31.360 --> 1:56:35.160 like all of all, like the all the the okay, 1:56:35.440 --> 1:56:38.320 Chinese dynastic history is not pretty right, like this is 1:56:38.440 --> 1:56:40.440 you know, it's an empire, right, it's an empire. It's 1:56:40.520 --> 1:56:42.760 ruled by an emperor. It kind of sucks, like it's 1:56:42.800 --> 1:56:44.920 not it's not good per se. But like even by 1:56:44.920 --> 1:56:49.000 the standards of Chinaina Qing are incredibly militants, an incredibly 1:56:49.000 --> 1:56:51.680 expansionist um. For example, like shing Jong, which which is 1:56:51.720 --> 1:56:54.360 a province that the Ching conquered, so it used to 1:56:54.360 --> 1:56:56.520 be inhabited by a Mongol speaking people until the Ching 1:56:56.640 --> 1:56:59.600 just exterterminated them all and settled the entire land with 1:57:00.280 --> 1:57:03.800 with Han and weaker like I think groups, and you know, 1:57:04.240 --> 1:57:07.160 this history points to something that's important to understand what 1:57:07.280 --> 1:57:09.240 we talk about China, Taiwan in the U S. Which 1:57:09.280 --> 1:57:11.839 is that what we're talking about is three settler qualities. 1:57:13.080 --> 1:57:15.480 And I think people, you know, might be like, wait, 1:57:15.520 --> 1:57:18.000 what do you mean China's settler colony? And I'm just 1:57:18.040 --> 1:57:22.640 gonna read this passage from the book Sovereignty, Frontiers the Possibility, 1:57:23.040 --> 1:57:27.000 which is by Julia Evans, Anna Genevis, Alexander Riley, and 1:57:27.080 --> 1:57:29.400 Patrick Wolf. And and yes, that is that Patrick Wolf, 1:57:29.440 --> 1:57:32.480 who was like was basically the godfather of settler colonial 1:57:32.480 --> 1:57:35.120 studies and one of the most important like academics are 1:57:35.120 --> 1:57:37.800 trying of like in terms of like advancity, annalysis of cetera, colonialism, 1:57:37.880 --> 1:57:41.520 like the Palestinian conflict. Here's here here, here's what he 1:57:41.520 --> 1:57:43.480 has to say about China. And this is kind of 1:57:43.520 --> 1:57:45.440 a long passage, but like, I want to include an 1:57:45.440 --> 1:57:47.560 explanation of what settler colonialism is because I've kind of 1:57:47.600 --> 1:57:51.440 just been tossing it around analytically. The case of Palestine 1:57:51.480 --> 1:57:54.680 reveals that the relationship between the external and internal dimensions 1:57:54.720 --> 1:57:59.360 of sovereignty is not a priori but contingent. Settler colonization 1:57:59.480 --> 1:58:04.080 converts external into internal, rendering indigenous sovereignties either non existent 1:58:04.160 --> 1:58:07.920 or domesticated. Annexation does the same thing, only it is illegal. 1:58:08.360 --> 1:58:11.600 The difference again is sovereignty. To annex is to practice 1:58:11.640 --> 1:58:16.640 settler colonialism in sovereign territory. Thus, the frontier is aligned 1:58:16.720 --> 1:58:19.800 in time as well as in space. Spatially, the frontier 1:58:19.880 --> 1:58:24.360 two limits unconquered native territory. Temporally, it marks the conversion 1:58:24.400 --> 1:58:27.880 of outside into inside. It renders externality a thing of 1:58:27.960 --> 1:58:32.480 the past in the global conquest of settler colonialism. Therefore, 1:58:32.880 --> 1:58:35.960 the internal and external dimensions represent the state of play, 1:58:36.040 --> 1:58:40.640 quote unquote. The ultimate prize is state formation with internationally 1:58:40.720 --> 1:58:44.880 recognized territorial sovereignty. Once the settler takeover as complete, the 1:58:45.000 --> 1:58:48.560 native realm becomes a thing of the past, superseded and detoxified, 1:58:48.760 --> 1:58:52.640 reduced to persisting in the settler's terms. Since in the 1:58:52.680 --> 1:58:56.120 case of Palestine, this process remains incomplete, the situation can 1:58:56.160 --> 1:59:00.000 still go either or potentially any way. At the international 1:59:00.000 --> 1:59:02.800 a level. This uncertainty is reflected in the ambivalent status 1:59:02.880 --> 1:59:06.880 of Palace Indian sovereignty, which remains simultaneously both acknowledged and 1:59:07.000 --> 1:59:10.640 questioned locally, The stage involved in the resolution of such 1:59:11.320 --> 1:59:15.160 international uncertainties could not be higher. Tibet represents a case 1:59:15.200 --> 1:59:20.200 in point. Despite significant informal deference to Tibet's national separateness, 1:59:20.840 --> 1:59:23.720 its incorporation into the People's Republic of China is not 1:59:23.840 --> 1:59:27.560 seriously questioned. At the diplomatic level, Tibetan representation at the 1:59:27.640 --> 1:59:31.480 United Nations remains unimaginable. Yet even Tibetans might count their 1:59:31.480 --> 1:59:34.920 blessings when they compare their situation to that of Weakers, who, 1:59:35.200 --> 1:59:38.600 like them, are being officially colonized by Han settlers in 1:59:38.640 --> 1:59:41.880 the so called autonomous region called shing Jong, a Chinese 1:59:41.920 --> 1:59:44.800 appellation that could have been scripted in sixteenth century Europe. 1:59:45.080 --> 1:59:49.800 It means new land, being so much more firmly domesticated 1:59:49.880 --> 1:59:52.960 within the Chinese state. However, weaker sovereignty remains in vote 1:59:53.000 --> 1:59:55.360 from global concern. Now. Now obviously, okay, this is written 1:59:55.400 --> 2:00:00.000 before like shing Jong became like a global news store. 2:00:00.240 --> 2:00:06.520 And also I I I question wolves translation of the 2:00:06.640 --> 2:00:08.560 word a little bit, like I think, I think new 2:00:08.600 --> 2:00:12.800 Frontier is probably a slightly better translation. But yeah, like 2:00:13.240 --> 2:00:15.680 you can see what's at work here, right, Like wolves 2:00:15.800 --> 2:00:20.280 argument is that like yeah, like like China is running 2:00:20.320 --> 2:00:23.880 two settler qualities, like the internal status of which is 2:00:24.000 --> 2:00:29.800 like even more internationally fucked than like most other settler colonies, 2:00:30.320 --> 2:00:35.480 which is incredibly grim. Like yeah, I think we don't. 2:00:35.640 --> 2:00:38.200 I don't know why we were so we've been so 2:00:38.320 --> 2:00:44.360 slow to see selling colonialism and these contiguous empires like here. Yeah, 2:00:44.400 --> 2:00:45.920 I mean I think part of what's happening here, like 2:00:45.960 --> 2:00:47.400 you know, okay, Like I think there's sort of a 2:00:47.400 --> 2:00:49.120 different dynamic with looking at this with Russia, but I 2:00:49.160 --> 2:00:54.320 think with China, it's like people are just like it's 2:00:54.360 --> 2:00:57.480 really really hard to get people to understand that colonialism 2:00:57.520 --> 2:00:59.720 and imperialism are things that like not that like non 2:00:59.800 --> 2:01:03.320 white people can do, yes, and especially especially like this, 2:01:03.520 --> 2:01:04.840 you know. And I think it goes back to the 2:01:04.880 --> 2:01:07.440 sort of like Chan dynasy discussion, right, which is that like, yeah, 2:01:07.520 --> 2:01:09.880 you know, the like the way that people on the 2:01:09.960 --> 2:01:12.440 left understand the Ching dynasty is do the sort of 2:01:12.520 --> 2:01:15.480 nationalist lens looking at like and so they miss the 2:01:15.520 --> 2:01:17.840 whole part where they're doing all the settler colony stuff. 2:01:17.880 --> 2:01:19.680 But like what happens to them basically is that, like, 2:01:20.320 --> 2:01:22.320 you know, it's like they're there. It's kind of like 2:01:22.400 --> 2:01:25.760 the Ottomans, right, We're like their empire suddenly runs into 2:01:25.920 --> 2:01:29.960 like newer, better, more violence and more efficient empires. But 2:01:30.040 --> 2:01:33.080 like it doesn't mean that like they worked also empires. 2:01:33.800 --> 2:01:38.640 Like it's yeah, and then when people do work that 2:01:38.800 --> 2:01:41.360 out sometimes, like people and when we talk about like 2:01:41.680 --> 2:01:45.480 settler clonism in the US, sometimes like when folks have 2:01:45.560 --> 2:01:48.840 forced to retreat from the first position and that like 2:01:49.000 --> 2:01:50.960 that the US is not a settler quality, they will 2:01:51.000 --> 2:01:54.240 then fall back on, well, they're indigenous empires beforehand, as 2:01:54.280 --> 2:01:57.920 if that somehow justifies Yeah, it's like it does not right, 2:01:58.040 --> 2:02:01.360 and like you know, like and and I think it's 2:02:01.400 --> 2:02:02.920 the thing that tibet to where it's like, yeah, the 2:02:04.440 --> 2:02:07.480 pre existing Tibetan government was not good, Like I'm not 2:02:07.640 --> 2:02:09.880 I'm not going to defend like that government. It sucks. 2:02:10.440 --> 2:02:13.200 I I would also point out that the whole we're 2:02:13.200 --> 2:02:14.720 going to stop the slave trade thing is one of 2:02:14.760 --> 2:02:17.120 the things explicitly in in the in the Tree that 2:02:17.160 --> 2:02:18.760 Decide of the Conference of Berlin. That was the thing 2:02:18.800 --> 2:02:20.760 that they claimed that that like that that was the 2:02:20.800 --> 2:02:22.760 thing that the European powers claimed they were doing when 2:02:22.760 --> 2:02:25.520 they invaded Africa, so like when they split Africa, but 2:02:25.600 --> 2:02:28.280 between the Clune of Powers, so like you know, okay, 2:02:29.520 --> 2:02:31.280 I mean also it's you know this this is getting 2:02:31.280 --> 2:02:32.880 slightly off topic, but it's also worth noting that like 2:02:33.000 --> 2:02:36.560 there wasn't there was actually a communist movement like in 2:02:36.600 --> 2:02:39.320 Tibet that wasn't the CCP, and the CCP killed them all. 2:02:39.840 --> 2:02:43.120 So that's great and fun. That's never happened before with 2:02:43.240 --> 2:02:47.960 ttalitarian communist pass Yeah, it's it's gonna happen again. The 2:02:48.040 --> 2:02:50.640 sort of I think the stakes of what's happening here, 2:02:50.800 --> 2:02:54.560 I think become more clear when you understand that, like 2:02:55.280 --> 2:02:58.120 you like the US and trying to to like two 2:02:58.160 --> 2:03:02.880 different extents, right, like I don't know, like China has 2:03:02.960 --> 2:03:04.960 parts there, like there are parts of China where it's 2:03:04.960 --> 2:03:07.160 like very hard, like it's not a settler state. It's 2:03:07.160 --> 2:03:09.120 just like their states, but there are part of definitely 2:03:09.120 --> 2:03:10.640 are a settlers state. And there's the U S which 2:03:10.680 --> 2:03:13.840 is like entirely a settler state, and then Taiwan is 2:03:13.920 --> 2:03:18.040 also to a settler state, although it's like post independence 2:03:18.040 --> 2:03:19.720 Taiwan is at least violence of them, which is like 2:03:20.360 --> 2:03:23.560 not like a, I don't know, you're not winning much 2:03:23.600 --> 2:03:26.440 of a price by being less violent than China in 2:03:26.520 --> 2:03:30.040 the US, but like good count between those two. Yeah, 2:03:31.000 --> 2:03:32.560 but you know, but but but I think that this 2:03:32.600 --> 2:03:35.240 brings us back to like the Chin the Ching coccupation 2:03:35.280 --> 2:03:38.920 of Taiwan, which is that the Ching occupation of Taiwan 2:03:39.080 --> 2:03:42.560 is China's first like first new settler colony. The Ching 2:03:42.600 --> 2:03:46.560 administrators they divide the indigenous population into quote cooked and 2:03:46.760 --> 2:03:50.560 raw savages. Um that those are their words. That literally 2:03:50.600 --> 2:03:55.960 that's what they call them. Like it is why because 2:03:56.000 --> 2:04:00.800 they're really racist like this, this is like this, this 2:04:00.880 --> 2:04:02.360 is like a very old thing and sort of like 2:04:03.600 --> 2:04:06.440 sort of Chinese imperial discourse. Right, It's like you have 2:04:06.520 --> 2:04:08.840 the difference between like barbarians and like Chinese people and 2:04:08.960 --> 2:04:11.040 like savages and non savages like this this is like 2:04:11.360 --> 2:04:14.160 this is how these people think, right, and it's not good. 2:04:14.640 --> 2:04:17.040 Like I don't know, I don' don't know, like how 2:04:17.440 --> 2:04:19.720 many more ways I can like try to explain to 2:04:19.760 --> 2:04:22.400 people who are like who have been like like people 2:04:22.440 --> 2:04:24.560 have been like telling the Chinese nationalist stuff for so 2:04:24.720 --> 2:04:26.600 long that it's like this this also was not good, 2:04:26.800 --> 2:04:30.920 Like guys, and again it's something the US has done 2:04:31.120 --> 2:04:33.879 the UK. There's classic imperialism right now. We took about 2:04:34.240 --> 2:04:38.600 tribes in the US, racist in the British Empire. Yeah, 2:04:39.640 --> 2:04:43.480 I'm going to read a passage from Taiwan's imagine geography. Indeed, 2:04:43.640 --> 2:04:46.840 as ching writers began to construct the Taiwan indigenous as 2:04:46.880 --> 2:04:50.280 two distinct groups. Negative traits that have been formally associated 2:04:50.360 --> 2:04:53.680 with quote the Taiwan savages as a whole began to 2:04:53.840 --> 2:04:58.640 be mapped on the wild or raw savages. We're Earlier 2:04:58.720 --> 2:05:02.120 text claimed, for example, that the savages quote by nature 2:05:02.240 --> 2:05:05.919 like to kill or quote were or were quote stubborn 2:05:06.000 --> 2:05:09.520 and stupid. Now writers attributed these characteristics to the raw 2:05:09.600 --> 2:05:13.360 savages alone. Head Hunting, a notorious practice that the earlier 2:05:13.680 --> 2:05:16.320 the earliest sources had associated with the natives of Taiwan 2:05:16.360 --> 2:05:19.640 and other Pacific islands, also became also came to be 2:05:19.720 --> 2:05:23.160 seen as a raw savage practice. By the early eighteenth 2:05:23.200 --> 2:05:27.120 century travel writing, travel writers increasingly emphasized the violent and 2:05:27.240 --> 2:05:31.080 murderous behavior of the raw savages. The expansion of the 2:05:31.120 --> 2:05:34.040 Han Chinese population at this time caused an exhalation of 2:05:34.120 --> 2:05:37.440 conflict between Chinese settlers and the indigenous over land and 2:05:37.520 --> 2:05:41.440 other resources. Hostile indigitees were thus becoming a real threat 2:05:41.480 --> 2:05:44.800 to the safety of Han Chinese settlers. Although some writers 2:05:44.840 --> 2:05:48.000 blamed inter ethnic conflict on trouble making Han Chinese settlers, 2:05:48.320 --> 2:05:52.000 many Ching literati attributed the belligerous of the raw savages 2:05:52.040 --> 2:05:58.960 to the inherent bloodthirsty nature. So, yeah, it's it's real. 2:05:59.080 --> 2:06:03.840 It's real, it's real, classic empire ship like textbook shit. Yeah, 2:06:04.480 --> 2:06:06.640 and you know, and you can see that there's this 2:06:06.680 --> 2:06:09.000 whole nationalist myth that like you'll read if you read 2:06:09.080 --> 2:06:11.400 modern people like talking about this, or they'll be like, oh, 2:06:11.520 --> 2:06:14.320 the indigenous population that Chinese government got along so great. 2:06:14.680 --> 2:06:18.760 It is completely bullshit. This is an incredibly racist settler state, 2:06:18.760 --> 2:06:21.760 and it stays an incredibly racist settler state when when 2:06:21.760 --> 2:06:26.800 the Japanese take over Taiwan and the Japanese occupation is 2:06:26.880 --> 2:06:29.200 even worse than the chain occupation of indigenous people in 2:06:29.280 --> 2:06:31.040 a lot of ways to real ship show there's a 2:06:31.120 --> 2:06:35.000 huge massacre that they do in the thirties. Um, yeah, 2:06:35.120 --> 2:06:36.720 and and okay, we' just also mentioned at this point. 2:06:37.040 --> 2:06:39.120 So I've been focusing a lot on the the indigenous 2:06:39.120 --> 2:06:42.360 population because almost everyone who tells the story from all 2:06:42.440 --> 2:06:45.919 sides doesn't talk about them ever, because it's it's incredibly 2:06:45.960 --> 2:06:49.160 inconvenient to like everyone's narrative that there were people here 2:06:49.400 --> 2:06:53.760 for literally six thousand years, um. But you know, while 2:06:54.880 --> 2:06:57.120 basically since the Dutch showed up in the in the 2:06:57.120 --> 2:07:01.280 mid sixteen hundreds, UM, there have been like increasing numbers 2:07:01.280 --> 2:07:03.800 of Chinese settlers, and as as the Chin occupation sort 2:07:03.840 --> 2:07:05.840 of wears on, the number of Chinese settlers increases and 2:07:05.920 --> 2:07:09.720 increases increases, and it gets to the point where, you know, 2:07:10.280 --> 2:07:12.440 kind of close to like what we have today, where 2:07:13.200 --> 2:07:16.000 like the the indigenous population of Taiwan is like two 2:07:16.080 --> 2:07:19.240 percent of the population, and it's which is which is 2:07:19.280 --> 2:07:21.800 pretty close to what the indigenous population presenting the population 2:07:21.840 --> 2:07:26.440 of the US is for example. Yeah, and would make sorry, 2:07:26.440 --> 2:07:30.160 I'm not going to It's okay, Yeah, I'm going to 2:07:30.240 --> 2:07:34.360 talk about Elizabeth Warren. But god, you know, actually fucking 2:07:34.400 --> 2:07:36.320 I will talk about Elizabeth Warren in the middle of this, 2:07:36.400 --> 2:07:40.880 because yeah, because her her whole thing of like pretending 2:07:40.920 --> 2:07:42.760 to be indigenous was also fun because like she has 2:07:42.800 --> 2:07:47.120 a cookbook, and the cookbook yeah, yeah, that claims both 2:07:47.200 --> 2:07:49.320 her and her husband or indigenous. And then in that 2:07:49.520 --> 2:07:53.960 he's like maybe the most incomprehensible, awful like example of 2:07:54.040 --> 2:07:56.200 Chinese cooking every scene in my life, which apparently stole 2:07:56.280 --> 2:08:00.880 from like another cookbook. And it's really like just cascading 2:08:01.000 --> 2:08:05.160 levels of racism all the way down. It's oh god, 2:08:05.520 --> 2:08:10.320 it's fine, it's all fine. All the settler colonies are bad. 2:08:10.360 --> 2:08:13.560 Their politics are all also always bad because again, like 2:08:13.920 --> 2:08:18.800 being a settler colony inherently makes your politics awful because yeah, 2:08:19.160 --> 2:08:22.000 and representing yourself as an indigenous person to gain personal 2:08:22.040 --> 2:08:24.480 advantage in a settler colony when you are not one 2:08:24.760 --> 2:08:29.760 is ongoing active colonialism. Yeah, genuinely terrific stuff Like, yeah, 2:08:30.400 --> 2:08:37.400 don't do it. So having said that, so okay, we 2:08:37.440 --> 2:08:40.000 have to talk about the Han population. There's like different 2:08:40.120 --> 2:08:44.040 like subgroups of the Han population who are have different ethnicities, 2:08:44.040 --> 2:08:46.520 to speak different rates, like speak different languages because Han 2:08:46.680 --> 2:08:49.560 is like a very large sort of category, and like 2:08:49.760 --> 2:08:52.240 inside of Han Chinese there's like people who are Hawka. 2:08:52.280 --> 2:08:55.120 There's there's a whole bunch of different groups. Um, And 2:08:55.600 --> 2:08:57.280 I guess the one thing that's worth mentioning is that 2:08:57.320 --> 2:08:59.920 a lot of the like you'll hear people talk about 2:09:00.000 --> 2:09:02.360 Taiwanese as like its own language, and like that's like 2:09:02.920 --> 2:09:04.960 there there are a bunch of people who were Hanbu 2:09:05.040 --> 2:09:06.920 who don't speak Mandarin, and so like a lot of 2:09:06.960 --> 2:09:10.400 people in Taiwan speak Taiwanese, which is sort of like 2:09:10.480 --> 2:09:16.240 Hakka h ish Lang. Well, okay, what's what what's what's 2:09:16.240 --> 2:09:20.360 the most technically accurate with sagas it is a language 2:09:20.400 --> 2:09:23.240 that has developed on Taiwan, like in Taiwan by people 2:09:23.280 --> 2:09:26.680 who speak Kaka, and it's basically pretty close to that. Yeah, um, 2:09:27.600 --> 2:09:29.520 And we're not gonna get into super gradular detail about 2:09:29.520 --> 2:09:34.040 these ways of immigration, um, but basically, like one of 2:09:34.080 --> 2:09:35.720 the things that happens is that among these sort of 2:09:35.760 --> 2:09:39.640 han settlers, there becomes this sort of like Taiwanese identity 2:09:39.840 --> 2:09:42.240 of like them being Taiwanese, like specifically as a thing. 2:09:43.280 --> 2:09:46.640 And when when the Japanese lose World War Two, the 2:09:46.720 --> 2:09:51.680 Nationalist Party or the CAMT just like occupies Taiwan. But 2:09:52.000 --> 2:09:54.040 this is a real problem because again, most of the 2:09:54.080 --> 2:09:57.320 people don't want to be ruled by the CAMT because 2:09:57.360 --> 2:10:01.160 the KMT like absolutely suck. Um. If you want me 2:10:01.240 --> 2:10:03.760 to hear me, like go deeper into them, go listen 2:10:03.760 --> 2:10:06.440 to my bastard's episode in the World Anti Communist League. Uh. 2:10:06.600 --> 2:10:09.040 The short version is that the KMT is a genocidal 2:10:09.520 --> 2:10:12.040 like anti communist des squad party run by an organized 2:10:12.080 --> 2:10:15.440 crime outfit that's led by Shankai Check and you know, 2:10:15.600 --> 2:10:20.000 like they suck like really like absolutely horrible people. Um. 2:10:20.560 --> 2:10:22.840 And as the CAMT starts to lose a civil word 2:10:22.880 --> 2:10:25.280 of MAO like born more CAMT supporters not some people 2:10:25.320 --> 2:10:28.280 just like running from the war start fleeing in Taiwan, 2:10:28.560 --> 2:10:30.640 and this develops a mass like you get these massive 2:10:30.680 --> 2:10:32.720 tension between then people who had already been there and 2:10:32.880 --> 2:10:34.960 the KMT and they're sort of new supporters and their 2:10:35.000 --> 2:10:39.160 new sort of like settler immigrant population, and this boils 2:10:39.240 --> 2:10:42.040 over into what's called the February incident or the two 2:10:42.120 --> 2:10:46.160 eight incident. UM. Basically what happens so a CAMT cop 2:10:46.360 --> 2:10:48.800 like attacks a woman who was like selling cigarettes on 2:10:48.840 --> 2:10:53.200 the street illegally because the KMT, like I really also 2:10:53.240 --> 2:10:56.400 kept like they're so unbelievably corrupt and so like that 2:10:56.520 --> 2:10:59.120 they have all these like monopolies where it's like okay, 2:10:59.200 --> 2:11:01.600 like there's a guy who has like the opium monopoly 2:11:01.720 --> 2:11:04.840 or like a guy who has like the cigarette monopoly, right, 2:11:04.920 --> 2:11:07.680 and unless you're running through that monopoly, you can't sell 2:11:07.880 --> 2:11:11.000 like cigarettes. Yeah, and so in something that I think 2:11:11.000 --> 2:11:14.160 will be familiar to people who like, like have followed 2:11:14.240 --> 2:11:15.600 the number of people in the US who have been 2:11:15.680 --> 2:11:21.600 killed for uh. Yeah, so the cops start like beating 2:11:21.640 --> 2:11:23.440 this woman over the head with it with his pistol, 2:11:23.840 --> 2:11:26.680 and everyone around them gets incredibly piste off. And there's 2:11:26.720 --> 2:11:31.120 these giant protests, um, and the camp to your response 2:11:31.120 --> 2:11:34.320 to the protests by shooting into the crowd. And yeah, 2:11:34.360 --> 2:11:36.440 I mean so there's another side of this I should 2:11:36.440 --> 2:11:39.640 mention like briefly, which is that, like part of what's 2:11:39.680 --> 2:11:41.560 happening here is like there's a there's a kind of 2:11:41.760 --> 2:11:45.320 ugly like basically race riot that starts happening at the 2:11:45.360 --> 2:11:48.360 beginning of this where like people like the sort of 2:11:48.400 --> 2:11:53.640 like Cantonese population like starts just like attacking like any 2:11:53.840 --> 2:11:58.160 random like any random people from like the campt generation, 2:11:58.240 --> 2:11:59.800 just like they found on the street and start attacking 2:12:00.080 --> 2:12:04.720 LNG and like that sucks. Um. It is also just 2:12:05.720 --> 2:12:08.720 unbelievably less violent than what happens next, which is at 2:12:08.760 --> 2:12:12.080 the KMT Like well, okay, so so there there there's 2:12:12.080 --> 2:12:13.440 sort of this race, right I think, and then there's 2:12:13.440 --> 2:12:16.440 there's like there's a full scale revolution and the Taiwanese 2:12:16.480 --> 2:12:19.240 population like seizes control of base of like almost the 2:12:19.400 --> 2:12:22.400 entire island, like the entirety of the main island, and 2:12:23.040 --> 2:12:25.680 they start demanding like democratic rights and stuff like you know, 2:12:25.800 --> 2:12:28.000 a free press and free assembly and like the protection 2:12:28.040 --> 2:12:30.560 of the digitus population. Although I should also mention that 2:12:30.680 --> 2:12:35.640 like like nobody really inti one like treating digitus population 2:12:35.720 --> 2:12:37.520 will like it was bad enough, Like my seven year 2:12:37.560 --> 2:12:39.360 old mom was like, oh my god, why is everyone 2:12:39.400 --> 2:12:44.880 treating these people so badly? Like it's but you know, okay, 2:12:44.920 --> 2:12:47.080 So they do this thing, they have this revolution and 2:12:47.120 --> 2:12:49.560 then the KMT like just sends the army to the 2:12:49.600 --> 2:12:52.120 island and they killed something like twenty people in a week. 2:12:52.960 --> 2:12:56.200 Um like they are like they're they're cutting people's face 2:12:56.360 --> 2:12:58.760 like later like cutting parts of people's faces off with 2:12:58.920 --> 2:13:04.200 like nive Like it is unbelievably brutal. And this begins 2:13:04.240 --> 2:13:08.600 thirty eight years of martial law. UM. The subsequent CAMPTI 2:13:08.680 --> 2:13:11.320 police state tortures like tens of thousands of people in 2:13:11.440 --> 2:13:13.440 rules Taiwan with like an with an iron fist until 2:13:13.440 --> 2:13:17.240 like the late eighties and this is where things get 2:13:17.560 --> 2:13:21.320 really messy, right because up until nineteen forty two, like 2:13:21.640 --> 2:13:24.600 nobody in China like and and and this included both 2:13:24.680 --> 2:13:27.800 the CAMT and the CCP. Until actually forty two, neither 2:13:27.880 --> 2:13:29.920 of them actually claimed that Taiwan was part of China. 2:13:31.320 --> 2:13:33.880 But then in two both of them start claiming that 2:13:33.960 --> 2:13:37.560 that one is part of China. Yeah, and so when 2:13:37.680 --> 2:13:43.120 when when the KMT flees to Taiwan, both the CCP 2:13:43.560 --> 2:13:47.360 and the CAMT both claimed to be a legitimate government 2:13:47.360 --> 2:13:49.720 of China and be to be the legitimate government of Taiwan. 2:13:51.720 --> 2:13:55.080 And it's a disaster. Like the cam T is nuts, 2:13:55.440 --> 2:13:59.640 Like my again, like they made my like seven year 2:13:59.640 --> 2:14:01.840 old mom sing songs about how would they there? One day? 2:14:01.840 --> 2:14:04.800 They were going to reclaim the mother land? Like these 2:14:04.880 --> 2:14:11.200 people suck some of them still in myanma or maybe 2:14:11.440 --> 2:14:13.960 perhaps not now, but like I've heard from them from 2:14:14.080 --> 2:14:15.960 friends who are older who were there, that there are 2:14:15.960 --> 2:14:19.120 a bunch of cam TE like living in parts of 2:14:19.200 --> 2:14:21.920 me and Mari and tourist would go pay to visit them. Yeah, 2:14:22.080 --> 2:14:25.680 like that's that's the thing, Like yeah, they're like they 2:14:26.680 --> 2:14:28.440 most of the people flee that flee to Taiwan. But 2:14:28.520 --> 2:14:30.680 like they break in a number of different directions, and 2:14:30.720 --> 2:14:32.480 there's like a bunch of weird rump states they set up, 2:14:32.520 --> 2:14:34.680 they get knocked off. Eventually, it's a it's a whole mess. 2:14:34.720 --> 2:14:38.760 But in Taiwan, like they have this problem, which is that, like, okay, 2:14:38.800 --> 2:14:41.920 so there's like water in between China and Taiwan, and 2:14:42.120 --> 2:14:43.560 if you want to get troops over it, you have 2:14:43.640 --> 2:14:45.960 to have those troops across the water. And this is 2:14:46.000 --> 2:14:50.120 a real problem for like an invasion. So what ends 2:14:50.160 --> 2:14:53.160 up happening is a series so like okay, so you 2:14:53.280 --> 2:14:55.520 have the cam T in the CCP like staring each 2:14:55.520 --> 2:14:58.160 other down across these islands, and the product of this 2:14:58.240 --> 2:15:00.840 is what's called the Three Taiwan Straits christ these so 2:15:01.080 --> 2:15:04.960 basically in the CCP starts sell shelling Taiwan between in 2:15:05.000 --> 2:15:10.480 the five starts shelling like Taiwan, and then they do 2:15:10.560 --> 2:15:12.800 it again at fifty eight and like the CAMT shelves 2:15:12.880 --> 2:15:15.600 them back, and you know, and there's a couple of 2:15:15.600 --> 2:15:17.080 points where it looks like they're going to invade, but 2:15:17.160 --> 2:15:19.360 then the US like move supplies to the KMT to 2:15:19.440 --> 2:15:23.280 like keep the c from invading, and you know the 2:15:23.360 --> 2:15:25.840 result of this is just like I think, incredibly psychologically 2:15:25.920 --> 2:15:30.960 revealing move after like the crisis, which crisis ends with 2:15:31.120 --> 2:15:33.840 the KMT and the CCP agreeing to shell each other 2:15:33.960 --> 2:15:38.240 on opposite days because and I cannot emphasize this enough, 2:15:38.480 --> 2:15:42.640 this entire conflict is profoundly bullshit and was foisted upon 2:15:42.680 --> 2:15:47.480 Taiwan by a bunch of pedley squabbling Chinese nationalists. How 2:15:47.560 --> 2:15:49.960 big is that distance we're talking about, Like they're sending 2:15:50.000 --> 2:15:53.040 shells over there in the fifties, so it's probably not vast. Well, 2:15:54.280 --> 2:15:57.400 part of what's happening is so it's it's a hundred miles, 2:15:58.200 --> 2:16:00.800 hundred ten miles. But what's happening year is like they're 2:16:00.840 --> 2:16:03.160 they're there. They basically like have set up on outposts 2:16:03.160 --> 2:16:07.240 in different islands in between, like the Big Island and uh, 2:16:07.560 --> 2:16:09.200 the shore, so that they're they're like they're on these 2:16:09.240 --> 2:16:12.960 islands shelling each other, like they drafted My grandpa and 2:16:13.080 --> 2:16:15.920 sent him to one of these places and that's and 2:16:16.000 --> 2:16:18.520 then he came back and was like, funk this, we're 2:16:18.560 --> 2:16:20.240 out and so like that that's where my family's in 2:16:20.240 --> 2:16:22.400 the US because he was like, we're not doing this 2:16:22.440 --> 2:16:27.840 ship again. This sucks. Yeah, It's like, I'm not gonna 2:16:27.880 --> 2:16:29.760 be I'm not gonna be cannon fodder for these like 2:16:30.680 --> 2:16:37.360 weird nationalist psychos. So okay, So what the sort of 2:16:37.440 --> 2:16:40.040 result of this, though, is that the KMT gets the 2:16:40.080 --> 2:16:45.160 backing of the US, and the KMT becomes in Taiwan 2:16:45.360 --> 2:16:49.560 is the like the legitimately internationally recognized government, um like 2:16:49.800 --> 2:16:52.320 of all of China from the end of the Civil 2:16:52.360 --> 2:16:58.280 War until like the seventies. Yeah right, yeah, yeah, how's 2:16:58.280 --> 2:17:01.880 the UN seat I actually we get we'll get into that, 2:17:02.080 --> 2:17:04.360 and you know what we were doing here. So one 2:17:04.360 --> 2:17:06.720 of the things that happens here is that, okay, so, 2:17:07.640 --> 2:17:10.640 like the US really really does not want the CCP 2:17:10.760 --> 2:17:12.600 to have the u n C. And what are the 2:17:12.640 --> 2:17:14.800 things they try to do is that they offer neighbors 2:17:14.920 --> 2:17:19.280 India like the seat on like what's it called, am 2:17:19.280 --> 2:17:23.640 I blanking on the name of the thing? National Security Counsel? Yeah, yeah, 2:17:23.680 --> 2:17:27.120 you and Security Council. They offer India Sea the Security 2:17:27.160 --> 2:17:30.280 Council and neighbor is like, no, I'm not gonna take this. 2:17:30.320 --> 2:17:31.960 I'm not gonna take this. This this is China seat 2:17:32.000 --> 2:17:33.800 on the Council, Like, I'm not gonna take this. And 2:17:33.920 --> 2:17:40.160 then Mao repays him by invading India. Three in ways, Um, 2:17:41.840 --> 2:17:43.360 this this is not in my script? I am I 2:17:43.440 --> 2:17:48.959 am off, yeah, I am off script? Oh two sorry 2:17:49.120 --> 2:17:51.600 yeah yeah, So like this a this, this goes great 2:17:51.720 --> 2:17:56.280 for neighbor Mao just like invades and the Indians lose 2:17:56.360 --> 2:17:59.400 the war very badly. To understand why eventually trying to 2:17:59.400 --> 2:18:01.640 gets recognied, you have to have talked about it about 2:18:01.640 --> 2:18:04.400 like what was going on inside of the PRC, inside 2:18:04.440 --> 2:18:07.440 of the people's probably in China. So the CCP fights 2:18:07.480 --> 2:18:09.840 a war with the Soviets in nineteen sixty nine, which 2:18:09.959 --> 2:18:12.960 and this war gets called the Sino Soviet Border conflicts. 2:18:13.040 --> 2:18:16.200 But like this is like pretty much a real war, 2:18:16.720 --> 2:18:20.280 Like there are like Chinese and Soviet division shelling each other, 2:18:20.920 --> 2:18:25.880 like a lot of people die. Um, like I I 2:18:25.959 --> 2:18:28.119 don't know if I've told the story on this podcast before. 2:18:28.280 --> 2:18:29.920 My my my favorite part of this whole thing is 2:18:30.000 --> 2:18:32.760 that the Soviets start like wargaming, can can they defeat 2:18:32.840 --> 2:18:34.360 China and nuclear war? And they figure out that they 2:18:34.400 --> 2:18:37.320 can't because the Chinese population is so just is so 2:18:37.440 --> 2:18:39.760 dispersed that even even if they knuke all of China, 2:18:39.800 --> 2:18:41.440 they can't kill everyone they'll and they'll lose the war 2:18:41.480 --> 2:18:44.760 in human wave attacks. So the Soviets started developing, developing 2:18:44.800 --> 2:18:47.440 the strategy of like having like a line of nuclear 2:18:47.600 --> 2:18:50.840 land mines across the Soviet Chinese borders so that the 2:18:50.920 --> 2:18:54.120 human wave attacks can't get through, because they like this 2:18:54.240 --> 2:18:57.120 is this conflict is nuts, Like both China and the 2:18:57.240 --> 2:18:58.960 USS are are trying to get the US to ally 2:18:59.040 --> 2:19:01.480 with them to like do do do a preemptive nuclear 2:19:01.520 --> 2:19:05.800 strike on on the other side, Like it's crazy and 2:19:06.000 --> 2:19:09.360 and this like completes the Sino Soviet split, and the 2:19:09.560 --> 2:19:12.840 US like really really wants to make sure that the 2:19:12.879 --> 2:19:15.760 Sino Soviets but sticks, and so the US starts negotiating 2:19:15.800 --> 2:19:18.480 with China basically to bring China to the well, Okay, 2:19:18.760 --> 2:19:20.240 there's two ways of looking at it. One is that 2:19:20.320 --> 2:19:22.640 they just want to separate, like, you know, the Chinese 2:19:22.680 --> 2:19:24.080 from the Soviets. The other way of looking at it 2:19:24.200 --> 2:19:26.080 is that they want to like bring China fully over 2:19:26.120 --> 2:19:28.160 to the American side of the Cold War. And I 2:19:28.240 --> 2:19:32.480 think the latter approach actually works, right um, So in 2:19:32.760 --> 2:19:36.160 in in nine, the US recognizes the CCP as the 2:19:36.240 --> 2:19:39.920 legitimate government of China. UH. Several months later, China invades 2:19:40.000 --> 2:19:43.760 Vietnam in defense of the Khmer rouge, which the US 2:19:43.879 --> 2:19:48.280 was also backing. So yeah, um, and and this is 2:19:48.320 --> 2:19:52.279 where we get into some more diplomatic bullshit. Uh okay. 2:19:52.400 --> 2:19:56.240 So China maintain something called the One China principle. The 2:19:56.320 --> 2:19:59.640 One China principle holds that the CCP is the only 2:19:59.680 --> 2:20:02.560 government mint of China and then it rules Taiwan. The 2:20:02.800 --> 2:20:05.200 US has something called the One China Policy, and the 2:20:05.280 --> 2:20:08.720 One China Policy is it does not take a stance 2:20:09.200 --> 2:20:12.320 either way on who the government of Taiwan is. What 2:20:12.480 --> 2:20:15.320 it does is it acknowledges that China claims that it 2:20:15.440 --> 2:20:20.520 rules Taiwan. And you will see nationalists lie about this constantly. 2:20:20.560 --> 2:20:22.880 They will say things like the US recognizes Taiwan as 2:20:22.920 --> 2:20:26.440 part of China under the One Child Policy, blah blah blah. 2:20:26.480 --> 2:20:28.560 Action is a violation of the One China Policy. And 2:20:28.640 --> 2:20:31.240 that's not true, right. What actually happened is that the US, 2:20:31.520 --> 2:20:35.160 the US technical term for this is called strategic ambiguity. 2:20:35.800 --> 2:20:37.520 And you know, so they have this thing like, they 2:20:37.560 --> 2:20:40.720 don't they don't formally recognize either side as legimate government 2:20:40.720 --> 2:20:43.920 of Taiwan. They recognize that this is what China says 2:20:44.040 --> 2:20:48.680 about Taiwan, they don't actually recognize, but they have no 2:20:48.840 --> 2:20:52.160 formal position on whether this is the actually rules Taiwan. 2:20:52.400 --> 2:20:55.520 What they have is a recognition that China believes this. 2:20:56.000 --> 2:20:59.240 And again this is all diplomatic bullshit. It's part of 2:20:59.320 --> 2:21:04.160 why I hate like talking about this because like, again, 2:21:04.720 --> 2:21:08.240 the lives of literally tens of billions of people are 2:21:08.320 --> 2:21:12.840 being governed by like diplomats saying doing like that kind 2:21:12.920 --> 2:21:17.760 of ship because it sucks. Yeah, So that's that's that's 2:21:17.840 --> 2:21:20.720 that's the one Child policy thing, which is not Jesus 2:21:20.760 --> 2:21:22.640 the one China policy, which is not the same thing 2:21:22.840 --> 2:21:26.000 as the one China principle. Um, yeah and so and 2:21:26.080 --> 2:21:28.080 so like. All the while, while this is going on, 2:21:28.240 --> 2:21:30.440 the CCP and the KMT yere in this massive race 2:21:30.440 --> 2:21:32.640 to see you can kill the most communists like that. 2:21:32.720 --> 2:21:35.279 The CCP kills about a million commination the Cultural Revolution 2:21:35.360 --> 2:21:39.200 and then invades Vietnam to kill even more communists. The 2:21:39.320 --> 2:21:42.840 KMT like not not to be outdone by by by 2:21:43.000 --> 2:21:45.920 by by their former comrades across the border. The KMT 2:21:46.200 --> 2:21:48.240 is training desk squalls in Honduras and like helping the 2:21:48.280 --> 2:21:51.560 Guatemalan government do the Guatemalan genocide. It's it's really grim stuff. 2:21:52.320 --> 2:21:55.360 And you know, the product of this ideolog the product 2:21:55.400 --> 2:21:57.959 of this whole thing is the audio complete audiological collapse 2:21:58.120 --> 2:22:01.360 of the Chinese Comunist Party as like a party that 2:22:01.400 --> 2:22:04.520 does communism, and then the political military collapse with the 2:22:04.600 --> 2:22:08.920 KMT so the but by I mean it's kind of 2:22:09.320 --> 2:22:10.880 it sort of has already stopped at the eighties, but 2:22:10.879 --> 2:22:14.320 by the nineties nineties, the CCP substantively has stopped being 2:22:14.320 --> 2:22:16.080 a communist party by the sense of the word, like 2:22:16.120 --> 2:22:18.000 they're just capitalists and they're not they're you know, they're 2:22:18.000 --> 2:22:20.760 out there making money. And by by by the late 2:22:20.800 --> 2:22:23.440 two thousands, even like you know, there had been a 2:22:23.520 --> 2:22:25.360 faction of what's called sure of the Chinese New Left, 2:22:25.760 --> 2:22:27.200 but had thought that like they could you know, they 2:22:27.360 --> 2:22:28.840 they could, you know, this is still a communist party 2:22:28.840 --> 2:22:30.480 and we can still change China from the inside. Those 2:22:30.480 --> 2:22:32.960 guys are like liquidated completely, like they're just gone, um 2:22:33.920 --> 2:22:35.440 and you know, and so but you know, by by 2:22:35.520 --> 2:22:38.160 like now right, like it's just it's just it's just capitalists. 2:22:38.240 --> 2:22:41.520 And meanwhile, in Taiwan in the eighties and nineties, there's 2:22:41.640 --> 2:22:45.080 there's increasing resistance the CAMT s like one party like 2:22:45.280 --> 2:22:47.600 dest squad, like one party state and their whole dest 2:22:47.600 --> 2:22:50.720 squad like reclaimed them motherland politics. Everyone like starts to 2:22:50.760 --> 2:22:53.800 hate them. And this is where things get really weird 2:22:54.040 --> 2:22:56.840 because on the one hand, the CAMPT is incredibly anti communists, 2:22:56.840 --> 2:22:59.320 but on the other hand, uh, they're the political faction 2:22:59.360 --> 2:23:01.680 that wants to tie type one the China. And this 2:23:01.879 --> 2:23:03.560 means that like, you know, as they're sort of like 2:23:03.640 --> 2:23:07.080 ruthlessly suppressing communists and leftists, they're also like vehemently independence 2:23:07.400 --> 2:23:10.680 and so like they kill a bunch of anti independence organizers, um, 2:23:11.160 --> 2:23:15.040 which is like not not not not how anyone like 2:23:15.160 --> 2:23:18.160 talks about this conflict because it's too weird. So in 2:23:18.959 --> 2:23:20.600 there's all the sort of weird political things going on 2:23:21.120 --> 2:23:24.280 in the seven. The KMT ends the martial law that 2:23:24.360 --> 2:23:27.440 they had been in force since the February incidents, and 2:23:27.560 --> 2:23:31.560 the KMT like disarms, right they disarm. They're not as 2:23:31.760 --> 2:23:35.199 in like, Okay, the KMT used to be a party 2:23:35.280 --> 2:23:37.320 that would like assassinate people for writing an author right, 2:23:37.320 --> 2:23:39.840 like assassinate Americans on American soil for writing on authorized 2:23:39.879 --> 2:23:43.080 biography biographies of like Shankai check. And they kind of 2:23:43.120 --> 2:23:47.480 stopped being that, like they disarm, they're not really in 2:23:47.520 --> 2:23:53.800 the drug trade anymore, caveats. Don't quote me on that, 2:23:54.080 --> 2:23:56.360 but like the they're they're they're they're not the party 2:23:56.400 --> 2:23:58.440 they were in the eighties, right, That's that's what the 2:23:58.440 --> 2:24:00.280 important thing like that they they lose is the one 2:24:00.320 --> 2:24:03.640 party dictatorship, and you get the sort of transition to 2:24:03.680 --> 2:24:07.080 democracy that ends in the first free presidential elections in 2:24:07.160 --> 2:24:13.840 Taiwani's history. In and this like the right right before this, 2:24:13.959 --> 2:24:16.280 you get the third Taiwan Straits Crisis, where the president 2:24:16.320 --> 2:24:19.360 of Taiwan like goes to the US and China react 2:24:19.440 --> 2:24:21.680 to this by having an enormous ture tempera tantrum and 2:24:21.840 --> 2:24:25.480 like starts doing military exercises, like they start like simulating 2:24:25.520 --> 2:24:28.680 an invasion of Taipwe. They start like shooting rockets like 2:24:28.800 --> 2:24:31.640 at the coast, like jet the the leve these rockets 2:24:31.640 --> 2:24:37.080 that will land like just off the coast, and it's edgy. Yeah, 2:24:37.280 --> 2:24:39.560 And the event this ends when the US moves like 2:24:40.120 --> 2:24:45.320 two carrier groups into into the Pacific and the crisis ends. 2:24:45.400 --> 2:24:48.040 But like, okay, there's a feelings I would say here. 2:24:48.760 --> 2:24:52.480 One is that like okay, so on the one hand, 2:24:52.560 --> 2:24:54.760 this is the CCP having a temperate tensium. Right on 2:24:54.760 --> 2:24:58.520 the other hand, like it really and this is the 2:24:58.560 --> 2:25:00.920 thing that I think most Americans have ever experienced, right, 2:25:00.920 --> 2:25:05.760 because the US is not a country that like gets attacked, right, 2:25:06.840 --> 2:25:11.360 having another country firing missiles at you fucking sucks, like 2:25:11.879 --> 2:25:15.280 psychologically it is awful. Like we saw how insane the 2:25:15.400 --> 2:25:18.200 U S went, like the like the first time it 2:25:18.240 --> 2:25:21.680 had actually been attacked since like World War Two when 2:25:21.720 --> 2:25:25.880 I eleven happened, Like you know, you saw just absolutely 2:25:25.920 --> 2:25:29.320 batshitt the U S goes, right, Like, Okay, if you 2:25:29.400 --> 2:25:31.880 are a person in Taiwan, right, which like a lot 2:25:31.920 --> 2:25:35.160 of my family is, and you are constantly having another 2:25:35.240 --> 2:25:39.680 country shooting rockets at you, like, it sucks like and 2:25:40.440 --> 2:25:42.040 and I want people to like like sort of like 2:25:42.200 --> 2:25:45.080 think about that for a second, because like I think 2:25:45.600 --> 2:25:47.800 a lot of what how, how this crisis and how 2:25:47.840 --> 2:25:50.840 this whole thing has talked about on the left is 2:25:51.040 --> 2:25:53.880 as a sort of like abstract thing that's like you know, 2:25:53.920 --> 2:25:56.040 it's it's it's instead of abstract principles, right, and not 2:25:56.120 --> 2:25:58.800 stuff that's happening to real people who are like watching 2:25:58.879 --> 2:26:02.920 missiles fucking fall into the ocean, and you know, like 2:26:03.040 --> 2:26:05.480 and what we're watching another country like preparing to kill 2:26:05.520 --> 2:26:09.240 them and this sucks. UM. One of the other things 2:26:09.360 --> 2:26:13.240 that were not noting here is that like part of 2:26:13.320 --> 2:26:15.360 what's going on in terms of the hardening of China 2:26:15.400 --> 2:26:20.199 Taiwan relations is gentlemen square happened. Um. And the reason 2:26:20.280 --> 2:26:22.000 that this matters is that, so one of the things 2:26:22.080 --> 2:26:25.280 that like stabilizes I guess relations between Taiwan and China 2:26:25.400 --> 2:26:30.400 in part is the fact that they're both incredibly economic 2:26:30.520 --> 2:26:34.480 closely economically connected to the US. UM. And this is 2:26:34.520 --> 2:26:38.720 because all of the all China, Taiwan and UH and 2:26:38.959 --> 2:26:42.320 China are all capitalist countries and so they're ruling classes 2:26:42.320 --> 2:26:45.520 are all completely independence like people. People talk a lot 2:26:45.520 --> 2:26:48.600 about Pelosi like investing in a bunch of like chip 2:26:48.680 --> 2:26:50.800 manufacturing companies in Taiwan, and that's true, but she also 2:26:50.800 --> 2:26:53.960 has a bunch of investments in China, because again, capitalists, 2:26:54.160 --> 2:26:57.560 single ruling class, they all there. They all all of 2:26:57.600 --> 2:26:59.640 your logistics lines run through each other. Blah blah blah 2:26:59.640 --> 2:27:02.800 blah bla uh. I will insert and note here that 2:27:02.879 --> 2:27:04.600 is not in the script that anytime you should someone 2:27:04.680 --> 2:27:06.800 talk about like the U S decoupling with their economy 2:27:06.840 --> 2:27:09.480 from China. They're they're full of ship. Do not like 2:27:09.840 --> 2:27:12.240 everything they're saying, everything they're about to say is a lie. 2:27:12.360 --> 2:27:14.000 It does not happen, It has not happened, it will 2:27:14.040 --> 2:27:18.160 not happen, like they're lying. Um yeah, this is important. Um, 2:27:18.920 --> 2:27:21.680 even for the height of Trump's bullshit. Yeah. Yeah, Like, 2:27:21.800 --> 2:27:24.199 like there was kind of an attempt when it didn't 2:27:24.240 --> 2:27:26.440 work because like you know, you could, Okay, like there 2:27:26.720 --> 2:27:28.840 are some things you can offer to Mexico, right, but 2:27:28.959 --> 2:27:34.320 like most like China, China has a unique combination of 2:27:34.600 --> 2:27:38.240 a like a really good energy grid for the most 2:27:38.280 --> 2:27:40.039 part of those I mean, okay, there have been times 2:27:40.040 --> 2:27:42.000 where's gotten over tax but like it can compared to 2:27:42.040 --> 2:27:44.199 most other development countries that has a really good energy grid. 2:27:44.680 --> 2:27:48.440 It has a population in which actually doing union organizing 2:27:48.520 --> 2:27:51.960 is illegal, and it has a population that you know, 2:27:52.120 --> 2:27:54.840 like gets forced to work incredibly long hours, right, And 2:27:55.080 --> 2:27:57.680 the combination of those three things makes it makes it 2:27:57.800 --> 2:27:59.800 you know, a place where if you're an American capitalist, 2:27:59.800 --> 2:28:02.080 if're Taiwanese capitalist. And that's actually part of this too, 2:28:02.240 --> 2:28:04.560 is that like part part of the reason there's so 2:28:04.680 --> 2:28:07.200 much like hatred for Taiwan sort of China among people 2:28:07.240 --> 2:28:09.520 who you wouldn't expect it to be is that like 2:28:09.640 --> 2:28:11.200 there's a there's a lot of people in China whose 2:28:11.240 --> 2:28:14.320 only experience of Taiwan is working for like fucking Fox 2:28:14.440 --> 2:28:17.040 Cohn and like working just in hell conditions for a 2:28:17.600 --> 2:28:20.520 like for a Taiwanese capitalist, and you know, and that 2:28:20.680 --> 2:28:23.240 that's very easy to transformant a national sentiment and it sucks. 2:28:24.120 --> 2:28:26.600 But yeah, you know, but you know, like okay, so 2:28:26.720 --> 2:28:28.720 like there, the U s has an incentive just to 2:28:28.800 --> 2:28:33.080 stabilize US Chinese relations in part because it's economically like 2:28:33.200 --> 2:28:34.840 tied to both of these countries. But when something goes 2:28:34.920 --> 2:28:37.880 really wrong in US China relations, like for example, after 2:28:37.920 --> 2:28:39.879 Tianna Man where you know, and I think it's also 2:28:39.920 --> 2:28:43.200 worth noting like from from the period like basically from 2:28:43.280 --> 2:28:46.440 when China invades Vietnam and even before that from but 2:28:46.520 --> 2:28:51.440 from when China invades Vietnam in up until Tienamen, the 2:28:51.520 --> 2:28:55.119 US China relations are really good. Like the the US 2:28:55.200 --> 2:28:56.879 is seen as like an ally against the evil at 2:28:56.920 --> 2:28:59.840 Soviet evil Empire like all this, and you know, but 2:29:00.040 --> 2:29:03.040 gentlemen makes things go really badly because like the the 2:29:03.120 --> 2:29:05.400 only thing in American ally can possibly do that will 2:29:05.400 --> 2:29:07.080 sour the American press on them is to shoot a 2:29:07.080 --> 2:29:08.840 bunch of students in front of the American press corps 2:29:09.320 --> 2:29:11.760 like that. That's literally the only thing you could possibly do, 2:29:12.080 --> 2:29:14.720 Like you can, you can do actual genocides and the 2:29:14.800 --> 2:29:16.720 US press corps won't care. But if you shoot a 2:29:16.720 --> 2:29:18.240 bunch of students right in front of you, they will 2:29:18.280 --> 2:29:22.480 get very mad. And you know, okay times we've we've 2:29:22.560 --> 2:29:28.960 avoided doing that in minima. Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, 2:29:29.800 --> 2:29:34.039 it's it's it's grim, lots lots of lots of yeah. 2:29:35.400 --> 2:29:37.000 But you know the consequence of this is like, yeah, 2:29:37.080 --> 2:29:39.080 when something goes really wrong in US China relations, you 2:29:39.120 --> 2:29:41.600 get China starts doing stabler rattling at Taiwan and the 2:29:41.640 --> 2:29:43.720 effects of this on Taiwan ease politics and also just 2:29:43.720 --> 2:29:47.680 sort of what's been happening inside of Taiwan is really weird. 2:29:48.240 --> 2:29:50.720 So the CAMT, who have been again like the militantly 2:29:50.720 --> 2:29:53.160 anti communist party for half essentially for half a century, 2:29:53.200 --> 2:29:55.600 are suddenly the fashion that once closer ties with this ECP. 2:29:57.680 --> 2:30:01.040 And the product of this is that the KMT and 2:30:01.080 --> 2:30:03.680 the smaller like hardcore pro Utification Party has become known 2:30:03.720 --> 2:30:06.040 as the Pan Blues. And the Pan Blues are the 2:30:06.080 --> 2:30:08.960 people who like want closer relationship with China and don't 2:30:08.959 --> 2:30:11.400 want closer relations with like the West. It's like the 2:30:11.520 --> 2:30:16.200 U s et etcetera. UM. And their opposition group is 2:30:16.720 --> 2:30:19.800 this reposition progressive opposition groups, which are just composed of 2:30:19.800 --> 2:30:23.000 the groups that opposed the camptis military dictatorship. And these 2:30:23.080 --> 2:30:26.119 groups form well, okay, they form a couple of parties. 2:30:26.160 --> 2:30:28.000 The big party. The first party they form, which is 2:30:28.000 --> 2:30:30.439 the biggest one by far, is called the Democratic Progressive 2:30:30.480 --> 2:30:33.160 Party or the d p P. And the DP panis 2:30:33.240 --> 2:30:35.440 allies which include some leftist parties I think, like the 2:30:35.480 --> 2:30:38.040 green parties in this coalition. Uh, there's also these like 2:30:38.200 --> 2:30:41.600 smaller like radical pro independent parties. UM. They become known 2:30:41.640 --> 2:30:45.680 as the Pan Greens. And this is like to this day, 2:30:45.760 --> 2:30:47.879 this is like the main dividing line in Taiwanese politics. 2:30:47.959 --> 2:30:50.320 You have the conservative Pan Blues you favor closer relations 2:30:50.400 --> 2:30:53.120 with China, and the Pan Green progressives you favor like 2:30:53.200 --> 2:30:57.400 closer relations with democracies. And also I think importantly, the 2:30:58.600 --> 2:31:01.360 the Pan Greens had this kind of like are the 2:31:01.360 --> 2:31:03.080 people who are in favor of like there being a 2:31:03.160 --> 2:31:07.720 distinct Taiwanese national identity, and the Pan Blues are kind 2:31:07.720 --> 2:31:09.440 of more suspect of that because again, like you know, 2:31:09.480 --> 2:31:11.680 their basis the KMT right, they want closer sizes with China, 2:31:11.720 --> 2:31:15.360 and closer sizes with China means not having like a 2:31:15.440 --> 2:31:18.280 distinct Twani's identity that's separate from China. And Okay, I'm 2:31:18.520 --> 2:31:21.000 enormously oversimplifying this, and people who are experts in this 2:31:21.080 --> 2:31:22.560 will like this part of it, will be like it's 2:31:22.560 --> 2:31:24.560 more complicated than that, and it is this is This 2:31:24.640 --> 2:31:26.959 is the simples explanation I could give you that people 2:31:27.000 --> 2:31:31.600 will understand. Like I I was, like, I was debating 2:31:31.640 --> 2:31:34.120 whether I even wanted to talk about like the Pan 2:31:34.200 --> 2:31:39.000 Blue like closer ties with China versus paying Green like 2:31:39.040 --> 2:31:41.280 closer ties with the West thing at all, because it's 2:31:41.360 --> 2:31:46.600 confusing and people probably won't remember it. But yeah, I mean, 2:31:46.800 --> 2:31:48.440 you know, if you want to understand tiwan these politics 2:31:48.480 --> 2:31:51.480 at all, like this is the line you have to take. No, 2:31:51.600 --> 2:31:53.160 I think it's important to at least throw out the 2:31:53.640 --> 2:31:55.520 people are gonna hear if they're going to engage in 2:31:55.600 --> 2:32:01.440 any discussion beyond like what has his tweeting and I'm, I'm, I'm, 2:32:01.440 --> 2:32:03.720 I'm gonna also like I'm gonna like lay my cards 2:32:03.760 --> 2:32:05.840 on the table so people don't understand my political position 2:32:05.920 --> 2:32:07.840 on this um. And my political position is one that 2:32:07.840 --> 2:32:10.680 pisces off literally everyone, which is that like, I'm not 2:32:11.400 --> 2:32:14.000 like a DPP supporter, Like I'm not one of the 2:32:14.040 --> 2:32:18.360 sort of like progressive like groups. I'm not in this 2:32:18.440 --> 2:32:20.440 sort of like I'm not really kind of like in 2:32:20.520 --> 2:32:22.400 this sort of like I wanted dependance camp. I'm not 2:32:22.480 --> 2:32:25.800 really like a DVP person. I I don't know, like, 2:32:26.959 --> 2:32:28.800 but I'm also not a KMT person, like because the 2:32:29.360 --> 2:32:33.640 KMT are capitalist reactionaries. Um. But I also like, okay, 2:32:34.840 --> 2:32:37.240 like I'm i'm, I'm, I'm gonna do my critique of 2:32:37.240 --> 2:32:38.760 the DPP and then I'm gonna sort of walk it 2:32:38.800 --> 2:32:42.320 back a little bit. I think that Taiwanese progressives in 2:32:42.360 --> 2:32:44.400 general are waged you close to the American security state 2:32:44.480 --> 2:32:45.800 for me to want anything to do with them. And 2:32:45.879 --> 2:32:49.880 the ones who aren't, like, okay, the Taiwanese left, like 2:32:50.120 --> 2:32:53.000 Jesus Christ, get your ship together. Taiwan's most famous anarchist 2:32:53.120 --> 2:32:57.320 is literally a government minister. Like this, This is how 2:32:57.400 --> 2:33:02.920 funny the Taiwanes's left is like like like like these people, God, 2:33:03.000 --> 2:33:05.880 I'm enormously frustrated by Like people couldn't develop, like a 2:33:06.000 --> 2:33:08.480 left to the people, couldn't develop a national class analysis. 2:33:08.560 --> 2:33:09.880 You beat them over the head with a copy of 2:33:09.920 --> 2:33:15.520 capital Um. And okay, like I think, like Taiwanese progressives 2:33:15.560 --> 2:33:17.360 will point out, and I think this is fair that 2:33:17.440 --> 2:33:19.840 it's very easy to criticize like allying with the U 2:33:19.959 --> 2:33:21.560 S when it's not your ass in the firing line 2:33:21.600 --> 2:33:24.320 of Chinese rockets, which is true. It is much easier 2:33:24.360 --> 2:33:26.440 to criticize the US when the when the rifles being 2:33:26.440 --> 2:33:28.680 pointed in your face are American rifles, then when it's 2:33:28.760 --> 2:33:32.720 you know, Chinese soldiers pointing Chinese rifles. And this is 2:33:32.760 --> 2:33:35.039 a big part of what Chwanese politics are so fucked um. 2:33:35.120 --> 2:33:37.840 Things get reduced at this sort of like democracy versus 2:33:37.840 --> 2:33:40.880 authoritarian US versus China, like taiwanies and entity versus Chinese 2:33:40.920 --> 2:33:44.080 identity to less extent like binary. But it's like okay, 2:33:44.680 --> 2:33:48.039 like my family is Taiwanese, but like I was born here, 2:33:48.280 --> 2:33:49.880 I grew up here, and you know, I know, I 2:33:50.000 --> 2:33:52.960 know what American democracy looks like. It's the Army hiring 2:33:53.080 --> 2:33:56.640 Eric Prince to slaughter Rockey civilians in Baghdad. And you know, 2:33:56.800 --> 2:33:58.160 I also know what you know. I have a bunch 2:33:58.160 --> 2:34:00.680 of family in China too. I know what Chinese ratarianism 2:34:00.720 --> 2:34:03.119 looks like. It's the CCP hiring Eric Prince ability trading 2:34:03.160 --> 2:34:08.120 basis for mass and tonament camp guards John like you know, okay, 2:34:08.520 --> 2:34:12.959 And the only actual like political solution that will ever 2:34:13.080 --> 2:34:16.800 get anywhere is to fight both of them, a position 2:34:16.879 --> 2:34:20.880 that is extremely unpopular literally everywhere. And like you know, 2:34:21.080 --> 2:34:23.879 I I think they're like the progressives have a good 2:34:23.959 --> 2:34:25.960 argument that that you know, this isn't this isn't a 2:34:26.000 --> 2:34:28.680 line they have the luxury of taking right because they 2:34:28.800 --> 2:34:30.880 they they have they have an immediate enemy, and they 2:34:30.959 --> 2:34:33.320 they're going to do whatever they have to not get invaded. 2:34:33.400 --> 2:34:36.240 And that means allying with people who like I want 2:34:36.280 --> 2:34:39.760 to overthrow and see liquidated as a class. And like 2:34:39.959 --> 2:34:43.160 I I understand why they think that I also am 2:34:43.200 --> 2:34:46.520 not them. So yeah, this is this is this is 2:34:46.560 --> 2:34:49.400 me laying my cards on the table. And I think 2:34:49.440 --> 2:34:51.080 also like this goes back to the whole sort of 2:34:51.160 --> 2:34:53.320 like Settler state question, right, which is the sort of 2:34:53.400 --> 2:34:56.199 unresolved political question in the U s, Taiwan and China, 2:34:56.360 --> 2:35:00.320 Like no actual major political force has like committed itself 2:35:00.360 --> 2:35:03.720 to destroying the settler state and returning indigenous sovereignty. Uh, 2:35:03.920 --> 2:35:06.840 like two indigenous people, and you can't have like any 2:35:06.920 --> 2:35:09.080 kind of liberatory politics in a settler state without that. 2:35:11.400 --> 2:35:14.000 But on the other hands, like okay, the actual politics 2:35:14.040 --> 2:35:17.000 of Timani's diigenous people is really complicated, Like it doesn't 2:35:17.160 --> 2:35:19.200 work in the same way that like indigenous politics in 2:35:19.240 --> 2:35:22.200 the US does for example, like different true, I mean, 2:35:22.240 --> 2:35:23.800 and this is also true in the US, like different 2:35:23.840 --> 2:35:26.600 tribes and different relations to sort of indigenous nationalism. Like 2:35:27.160 --> 2:35:31.040 and another thing that that's true about um the that 2:35:31.200 --> 2:35:33.480 that that that that's true about Timany's indigenous people is 2:35:33.520 --> 2:35:35.320 that a lot of them vote for the KMT. And 2:35:35.680 --> 2:35:37.120 they do this for a couple of reasons, one of 2:35:37.160 --> 2:35:40.360 which is because the KMT has this like really really 2:35:40.440 --> 2:35:43.200 powerful and eccentric patronage network that they've been running for 2:35:43.360 --> 2:35:45.440 literally like basically since they got into the island. They've 2:35:45.440 --> 2:35:48.160 been running this patriots network and this allowed them to 2:35:48.240 --> 2:35:51.240 do like real incredibly intense and powerful based building in 2:35:51.400 --> 2:35:54.520 indigenous communities. Right, Like they're like the GDP are the 2:35:54.560 --> 2:35:57.280 people who like distribute like okay that they have like 2:35:57.320 --> 2:35:58.720 a center and right, and you go there and they 2:35:58.760 --> 2:36:01.600 get they give you food, right like they this this 2:36:01.760 --> 2:36:04.720 this is the place where you get your like sesame oil. Right. 2:36:05.120 --> 2:36:06.960 And then also there's there's the second layer of the 2:36:07.000 --> 2:36:08.520 Pictures network, right, is like if you want to get 2:36:08.520 --> 2:36:11.320 a job, you join the KMT, and so they have 2:36:11.400 --> 2:36:13.360 these they have these really deep sort of political roots 2:36:13.400 --> 2:36:17.200 in that sense. And then also, um, the CAMT does 2:36:17.280 --> 2:36:20.040 this thing where they're like, hey, look, the DPP is 2:36:20.120 --> 2:36:22.600 doing settler nationalism, like hey, these are the people who 2:36:22.680 --> 2:36:25.120 colonized you, like fuck them, like you should alley with 2:36:25.240 --> 2:36:28.680 us instead, which is true, Like like it is true, 2:36:28.800 --> 2:36:32.760 and like I think, I don't know, like Taiwanese progressives 2:36:32.959 --> 2:36:35.680 kind of like tap dance around this, but like yeah, 2:36:35.720 --> 2:36:37.200 like it is true that the sort of like Han 2:36:37.280 --> 2:36:40.400 Taiwanese identity is less sort of settler nationalism. But like 2:36:40.560 --> 2:36:42.600 also this is true with the KMT as well, Like 2:36:42.640 --> 2:36:46.120 the CAMT are also was settler nationalism, like you know, 2:36:46.360 --> 2:36:50.760 like they conquered the island and ruled as you know, okay, 2:36:51.120 --> 2:36:53.280 and and you'll you'll you'll try you'll also see people 2:36:53.320 --> 2:36:55.240 who will take this argument and try to argue that 2:36:55.280 --> 2:36:58.199 indigenous people voting for the KMT means that indigenous people 2:36:58.200 --> 2:37:00.959 support China invading Taiwan. And this is just comically wrong, 2:37:01.120 --> 2:37:04.280 Like they're just they are lying to you. Indigenous people 2:37:04.280 --> 2:37:06.640 in Taiwan, like literally everyone else in Taiwan do not 2:37:06.680 --> 2:37:09.320 support being ruled by China, and the argument that a 2:37:09.400 --> 2:37:11.760 Chinese occupation of Taiwan is somehow less of a settler 2:37:11.800 --> 2:37:14.119 state than the current system is just like comically propaganda 2:37:14.160 --> 2:37:21.040 bullshit and yeah, China, Yeah that's not being kind. Yeah, 2:37:21.800 --> 2:37:24.800 I'm gonna get into like this a little bit too, right, 2:37:24.840 --> 2:37:26.320 which is okay, So like I've been trying to be 2:37:26.360 --> 2:37:28.520 fair and balanced here, right, like I have been giving 2:37:28.600 --> 2:37:31.039 you mi critique of taiwee Chiwanese progressivism. This is going 2:37:31.080 --> 2:37:34.000 to piss off a lot of people. But like having 2:37:34.040 --> 2:37:37.320 said all of this, China invading Taiwan would be really 2:37:37.720 --> 2:37:41.000 really really bad, Like I cannot emphasize enough how bad 2:37:41.080 --> 2:37:43.800 this would be. Like okay, so Taiwan is like a 2:37:43.879 --> 2:37:46.560 regular regular settler borgead democracy with like all of the 2:37:46.600 --> 2:37:48.800 sort of good and bad things about Bushwa democracies, which 2:37:48.800 --> 2:37:51.560 we're all familiar with, right, like we understand what is 2:37:51.560 --> 2:37:54.840 a learned democracy is um, to be fair, the modern 2:37:54.879 --> 2:37:57.440 Taiwanese government is like infinitely less violent than the modern 2:37:57.440 --> 2:38:02.440 American government. Like like the I I looked like the 2:38:03.560 --> 2:38:07.080 prison population in like relative population in Taiwan is like 2:38:07.480 --> 2:38:09.160 I think it's like an eighth of the of what 2:38:09.200 --> 2:38:12.200 the American prison population is, right, Like, it's it's not like, 2:38:12.440 --> 2:38:15.080 you know, okay, it's it's like Taiwan is not like 2:38:15.280 --> 2:38:16.600 a sort of like it's like Taiwan is not a 2:38:16.640 --> 2:38:20.760 socialist state, right, but it's also like, you know, better 2:38:20.840 --> 2:38:22.600 in the U s which is an incredibly low bar 2:38:22.760 --> 2:38:24.120 that like you could trip and fall over it, but like, 2:38:24.240 --> 2:38:27.320 you know, okay, it's it's better in the US. Um. Yeah, 2:38:27.840 --> 2:38:29.920 you know, it's closer to like Sweden or something in 2:38:30.040 --> 2:38:31.560 terms of violence. But I think is also a good 2:38:31.840 --> 2:38:34.640 comparison because Sweden also has an indigenous population called the Sami, 2:38:34.800 --> 2:38:39.880 and I all Swedish leftists will studiously never admit that 2:38:39.920 --> 2:38:43.080 they exist or talk about them at all. So okay, again, 2:38:43.120 --> 2:38:44.920 this is not a stateless class society. But it's also 2:38:45.040 --> 2:38:47.720 like like since since since the CAMT has been disarmed, 2:38:47.920 --> 2:38:49.880 Like this is not one of like the world's great 2:38:49.879 --> 2:38:54.320 purveyors of violence, right, Like it's not the US. UM. China, 2:38:54.360 --> 2:38:57.920 on the other hand, is a ferociously reactionary, capitalist settler dictatorship, 2:38:58.240 --> 2:39:00.640 and this is something that Americans have very little experience with. 2:39:00.920 --> 2:39:04.440 UM For a long time, people argue that, okay, like 2:39:04.600 --> 2:39:07.280 if if if China, like if Taiwan became a part 2:39:07.320 --> 2:39:10.640 of China, Taiwan would get some kind of relationship similar 2:39:10.680 --> 2:39:12.480 to what Hong Kong has were like they were free 2:39:12.480 --> 2:39:15.760 elections and union organizing and free speech is legal. But 2:39:15.959 --> 2:39:18.680 you know, twenty nteing happens. Yeah right, you know, I 2:39:18.720 --> 2:39:22.039 mean even in Taiwan, like the I'm sorry, not even 2:39:22.120 --> 2:39:23.920 even in Hong Kong, right, the extent to which like 2:39:24.040 --> 2:39:27.080 you know, like union organizing and free association and free 2:39:27.080 --> 2:39:31.080 press existed. We're like and again like Hong Kong also, 2:39:31.120 --> 2:39:32.560 and I want to point this out, like the CCP 2:39:32.680 --> 2:39:34.400 has been strengthening this the entire time they were there. 2:39:34.560 --> 2:39:36.560 Hong Kong is the only place on earth for corporations 2:39:36.560 --> 2:39:39.640 have the right to vote and they vote for the 2:39:39.680 --> 2:39:44.000 ccpeach Like it's so okay, this is this is great, 2:39:44.000 --> 2:39:45.840 but you know twenty en happens, right, And guess what now, 2:39:45.920 --> 2:39:48.600 Hong Kong has National Security Law, which allows the government 2:39:48.640 --> 2:39:50.959 to rescue literally for posting on Twitter that you don't 2:39:51.000 --> 2:39:55.240 think that China should control Hong Kong. UM Secretary Secretary 2:39:55.280 --> 2:39:58.920 for Security in Hong Kong, Chris Tang said earlier this 2:39:59.080 --> 2:40:02.320 week that criticizing the government with the intention to provoke 2:40:02.520 --> 2:40:07.200 quote pretention to provoke hatred quote between the classes was 2:40:07.240 --> 2:40:10.920 a violation of the National Security Law. A position that 2:40:11.360 --> 2:40:15.240 if actually like that, that if actually like like this, 2:40:15.520 --> 2:40:18.119 if you take this position, this would outlaw in its 2:40:18.320 --> 2:40:22.480 entirety all socialist organizing in Hong Kong, because again, anything 2:40:22.560 --> 2:40:27.800 that attempts to provoke hatred between the classes ISA is illegal. Yeah, 2:40:28.879 --> 2:40:35.160 and yes, some pana era of liberal Democrats existence within. Yeah, 2:40:35.160 --> 2:40:36.440 and this is this is the moneth and like you know, 2:40:36.520 --> 2:40:38.240 I mean again, like people people talk about this lot 2:40:38.240 --> 2:40:39.840 like Hong Kong is one of the world's most neoliberal 2:40:39.879 --> 2:40:42.120 cities and this is top has taken it over. And 2:40:42.879 --> 2:40:44.920 oh hey, guess what they're They're they're living out the 2:40:44.959 --> 2:40:47.000 neoliberal dream of making it illegal to try to do 2:40:47.120 --> 2:40:49.560 any like try to do like class war stuff. Um, 2:40:50.120 --> 2:40:52.320 one of the things that happens immediately after national security 2:40:52.360 --> 2:40:54.840 laws that it's used to destroy China's China's Independent Trade 2:40:54.879 --> 2:40:58.800 Union Federation. And this brings us to like the sort 2:40:58.840 --> 2:41:02.440 of class perspective on this um independent union organizing and 2:41:02.560 --> 2:41:05.040 China is illegal. And when I say it's illegal, I 2:41:05.080 --> 2:41:07.480 don't mean illegal in the sense of like jaywalking. We're like, okay, 2:41:07.520 --> 2:41:09.640 if someone if if like a cops sees you jaywalking, 2:41:09.680 --> 2:41:12.360 they might arrest you. Like if you try to do 2:41:12.440 --> 2:41:15.520 independent union organizing in China, men will show up to 2:41:15.600 --> 2:41:17.200 your house in the middle of the night and you 2:41:17.240 --> 2:41:19.240 will disappear for three months until a video of you 2:41:19.360 --> 2:41:21.640 with two very large men standing just out of camera 2:41:21.760 --> 2:41:24.240 range appears in which you recan't you're organizing and apologize 2:41:24.240 --> 2:41:27.760 for your crimes, like to to to get a sense 2:41:27.760 --> 2:41:29.680 of the level of oppression we're dealing with here to 2:41:29.920 --> 2:41:35.320 Chinese leftists named Louis You You and Leading You recorded 2:41:35.400 --> 2:41:38.240 and published a series of protests like the they basically 2:41:38.320 --> 2:41:40.879 they had they on the Chinese social media, like they 2:41:41.160 --> 2:41:44.360 posted this like record basically of strikes and protests that 2:41:44.400 --> 2:41:46.080 were happening in the country every day. So like literally 2:41:46.120 --> 2:41:48.960 all they're doing is they are documenting the strikes and 2:41:49.000 --> 2:41:51.280 protests that are happening and collecting data about them and 2:41:51.360 --> 2:41:55.360 posting it. Um in the police showed up to lose house, 2:41:55.400 --> 2:41:57.600 put a bag over his head and dragged him away 2:41:57.640 --> 2:42:00.720 to a dragging away to a jail cell. Lou spent 2:42:00.840 --> 2:42:04.400 four years in prison. Lee got two years, and the 2:42:04.440 --> 2:42:07.840 two of them never saw each other again. So again, 2:42:08.200 --> 2:42:11.800 this this is what happens. If you literally just report 2:42:12.280 --> 2:42:15.960 on the wildcat strikes that are happening, someone will put 2:42:16.000 --> 2:42:17.680 a bag over your head and you will go to 2:42:17.760 --> 2:42:22.320 prison for four years. Like it is. It is like 2:42:22.520 --> 2:42:25.560 the situation for organized labor of any kind of anyone 2:42:25.640 --> 2:42:30.840 trying to do. Union organizing in China is unbelievably dire. UM. Now, China, 2:42:31.200 --> 2:42:33.240 and this is when I'm talking about, here's the independent 2:42:33.320 --> 2:42:36.880 union organizing. China has an official trade union federation. Um, 2:42:37.240 --> 2:42:39.560 the trade Unifederation China has such a fucking joke. That 2:42:39.720 --> 2:42:41.920 is literally a matter of academic debates, Like there are 2:42:41.959 --> 2:42:44.480 academic papers arguing about whether or not it even actually 2:42:44.560 --> 2:42:46.959 counts as a union. And this has been true since 2:42:46.959 --> 2:42:49.400 the late nineteen fifties, when the CCP decided that oh hey, 2:42:49.440 --> 2:42:51.640 this trade union is there to represent the party and 2:42:51.720 --> 2:42:55.400 not workers, and its roles to mediate between the you know, 2:42:55.560 --> 2:42:58.320 to mediate between the party and workers, not actually to 2:42:58.400 --> 2:43:01.360 you know, like represent them when they like when they 2:43:01.440 --> 2:43:04.040 have disputed with their bosses. So yeah, like they don't 2:43:04.200 --> 2:43:06.480 like they they don't. They don't go on strike like ever, 2:43:07.200 --> 2:43:10.120 like they they they they they they They exist as 2:43:10.160 --> 2:43:12.360 like another part of the party state, the goal of 2:43:12.400 --> 2:43:14.280 which is to make sure that bosses keep making money. 2:43:14.840 --> 2:43:17.360 If you try to work outside, if they will arrest you. Now, 2:43:17.680 --> 2:43:20.800 Taiwan is not like a shining workers paradise, right that 2:43:20.879 --> 2:43:23.240 the sort of vaunted semiconductor industry that everyone talks about 2:43:23.280 --> 2:43:24.920 is run by a bunch of workers getting the ship 2:43:25.000 --> 2:43:27.359 burned out of them by vats of acid. But conditions 2:43:27.400 --> 2:43:30.200 for the Chinese working class are even worse. Counties wages 2:43:30.200 --> 2:43:32.960 are higher China, Taiwan is better workplace protections. Again, you 2:43:33.040 --> 2:43:36.720 can legally organize unions. Uh. Meanwhile, in China there are 2:43:36.760 --> 2:43:39.360 famously suicide nets around Chinese factories because working for these 2:43:39.400 --> 2:43:41.640 places is so fucking awful that people would literally rather 2:43:41.720 --> 2:43:44.240 kill themselves and live in it. And you know, you 2:43:44.320 --> 2:43:46.160 can ask why is this happening, And the reason it's 2:43:46.160 --> 2:43:47.480 happening is that a lot of the stuff that is 2:43:47.520 --> 2:43:50.200 literally the worst fucking nightmare of the American left, things 2:43:50.280 --> 2:43:53.200 like your boss owning your apartment is just standard practice 2:43:53.240 --> 2:43:54.400 in China. This is this is just this is just 2:43:54.520 --> 2:43:56.040 what it's like to be a worker in China. Your 2:43:56.040 --> 2:43:59.000 boss owner apartments. You have literally hundreds of millions of 2:43:59.040 --> 2:44:01.280 people who live in these time any like they're called 2:44:01.320 --> 2:44:06.000 workers dormitories, which again often literally owned by like the 2:44:06.080 --> 2:44:08.760 owner of the factory they're in. You get like when 2:44:08.800 --> 2:44:10.880 when I say like the workers dormitories, right, it's not 2:44:10.920 --> 2:44:13.240 even like it's not even like an American dorm building 2:44:13.360 --> 2:44:15.720 right where like you you know you have like your 2:44:15.760 --> 2:44:19.640 own room. It's like it is yeah, like it's it's 2:44:19.640 --> 2:44:22.080 a bunch of people sleeping in cots, like like sleeping 2:44:22.120 --> 2:44:24.920 in bunk beds with like a fucking bucket next to 2:44:24.959 --> 2:44:27.000 them to go to the bathroom. Like it is. It 2:44:27.200 --> 2:44:32.120 is horrible. Um, you have like like the the I 2:44:32.560 --> 2:44:34.320 talked about this lot in this show. But again like 2:44:34.840 --> 2:44:37.920 literally there are paid a loans integrated into delivery apps 2:44:38.800 --> 2:44:41.000 like this. This is the level of capitalism that that 2:44:41.120 --> 2:44:43.360 China is, and like I'm not gonna like, I'm not 2:44:43.440 --> 2:44:45.440 gonna like argue that it's worse than the US. I 2:44:45.520 --> 2:44:48.800 think they're bad in different ways. Like they're there, there 2:44:48.840 --> 2:44:50.280 are there are third like the the U s IS 2:44:50.320 --> 2:44:53.760 incarceration system is like you know, like one of the 2:44:53.920 --> 2:44:56.880 great human evils in the entirety of human history. Right there, 2:44:56.920 --> 2:44:58.760 there are things that like the US is worse at 2:44:58.840 --> 2:45:01.120 like the Chinese police are a lot less likely just 2:45:01.200 --> 2:45:04.560 fucking murder you like you know, but like yes, but 2:45:04.640 --> 2:45:07.840 like China, it sucks to be a worker in China, 2:45:08.000 --> 2:45:10.480 Like it really sucks. And I can't emphasize this enough 2:45:10.520 --> 2:45:12.720 because I don't because people don't really understand this, like 2:45:13.600 --> 2:45:16.320 they they like people do not understand that. Again, like 2:45:16.520 --> 2:45:20.199 the normal Chinese schedule is called you work nine am 2:45:20.240 --> 2:45:22.360 to nine pm, six days a week. This is the 2:45:22.520 --> 2:45:25.400 normal schedule. Mostly a lot of workers like that. That 2:45:25.520 --> 2:45:27.840 that again that that that's like an average schedule. Most 2:45:27.879 --> 2:45:32.160 people work more than this seventy hours a week, right 2:45:32.280 --> 2:45:34.400 like it is it is it is a ship show. 2:45:34.959 --> 2:45:38.680 And yeah, if if Taiwan, if China invades Taiwan, that 2:45:38.680 --> 2:45:40.520 you addition to the Taiwanese working class are going to 2:45:40.560 --> 2:45:42.840 get worse. That is just a fact. Try like imposing 2:45:43.280 --> 2:45:45.360 Chinese law on Taiwan, which strengthened the power of the 2:45:45.360 --> 2:45:48.080 capitalist class a week in the proletariat um from from 2:45:48.080 --> 2:45:50.200 an indigenous respective, which we we've talked about this at 2:45:50.280 --> 2:45:51.800 length about you know, we talked about at length how 2:45:51.800 --> 2:45:54.480 the Taiwan system is not that good. But you know, 2:45:54.760 --> 2:45:57.400 it's not like it's a settler colony. There's some representation, 2:45:57.720 --> 2:45:59.959 but you know, it's not great. It is much better 2:46:00.000 --> 2:46:02.959 over the CCP system. The CCPs line on ethnic minorities 2:46:03.120 --> 2:46:05.200 is that if you're an ethnic minority in China, you're 2:46:05.240 --> 2:46:06.960 going to work in a Han factory, You're going to 2:46:07.000 --> 2:46:09.360 pick crops from Han owed fields. You're going to dance 2:46:09.360 --> 2:46:11.160 and smile for hon tourists. If you step out of line, 2:46:11.160 --> 2:46:12.160 you will be dragged out of your bed in the 2:46:12.200 --> 2:46:13.760 middle of the night and sent to a fucking camp. 2:46:14.360 --> 2:46:16.000 There are you know, like this is the thing that 2:46:16.120 --> 2:46:18.760 Americans sort of have similar experiences with. It's like, you know, 2:46:18.879 --> 2:46:23.000 you have immigration raids, you have raids on homeless encampments, 2:46:23.760 --> 2:46:26.280 but it's not that's and that that's like you know 2:46:26.520 --> 2:46:29.040 that that's a kind of experience that is somewhat similar 2:46:29.080 --> 2:46:30.600 to what it's like to live and change on but 2:46:30.720 --> 2:46:33.200 like it's not exactly the same. Like I I know 2:46:33.360 --> 2:46:36.920 people whose families are just fucking gone, Like the police 2:46:36.959 --> 2:46:39.320 showed up in the middle of the night, and their 2:46:39.360 --> 2:46:41.520 families are just gone. They've never seen them again, Like 2:46:41.600 --> 2:46:43.280 they're they're just gone. No no one knows where they are, 2:46:43.400 --> 2:46:45.240 no one knows who they're even alife. They're just finished. 2:46:45.600 --> 2:46:47.240 And if and if you think that this isn't going 2:46:47.280 --> 2:46:49.920 to happen to Taiwan's indigenous population, the moment they start 2:46:49.959 --> 2:46:54.279 talking about self determination, you are incredibly bafflingly, hopelessly naive. 2:46:55.600 --> 2:46:57.120 And you know, like like that there there's a lot 2:46:57.160 --> 2:46:58.760 of other ship that you can point to, right like 2:47:00.000 --> 2:47:02.680 for example, Taiwan has game marriage and China doesn't like 2:47:03.520 --> 2:47:06.680 the degree of press censorship, just like social media censorship 2:47:06.720 --> 2:47:09.120 in China that doesn't need some Taiwan is like absolutely absurd, 2:47:09.520 --> 2:47:14.760 Like you know, I I think like most like some 2:47:14.879 --> 2:47:17.000 people talking about press censorship in the US are like 2:47:17.040 --> 2:47:19.160 almost always right wing ship heads who were complaining about 2:47:19.200 --> 2:47:22.119 like they yelled a bunch of slurs, like in China, 2:47:22.440 --> 2:47:24.440 a very common thing that happens, like someone will be 2:47:24.520 --> 2:47:26.640 posting about a corrupt local official and then every single 2:47:26.680 --> 2:47:27.920 post about it will get to lead and if you 2:47:27.959 --> 2:47:29.600 try to post the guy's name of your post won't 2:47:29.600 --> 2:47:31.879 go up. And then any emoji that people were using 2:47:31.920 --> 2:47:34.720 in association with the corrupt local official like get blocked 2:47:34.720 --> 2:47:37.680 and you can't use the emotis anymore, and like you 2:47:37.720 --> 2:47:40.240 know and like and I it's it's almost like the 2:47:40.440 --> 2:47:42.840 level of censorship is almost comical to the extent where 2:47:42.879 --> 2:47:46.039 like people don't believe like in the US, like don't 2:47:46.120 --> 2:47:48.440 like you know when people people talk about like like oh, 2:47:48.560 --> 2:47:52.119 the the Chinese government isn't really banning get guys who 2:47:52.160 --> 2:47:54.240 look too feminine and gay guys from appearing in medians 2:47:54.240 --> 2:47:56.800 Like no, they are like they're they're, they're they're. I 2:47:56.879 --> 2:47:59.920 think I think it was a Beyonce concept that they're there. 2:48:00.040 --> 2:48:01.640 Or there was a very famous, like very funny thing 2:48:01.680 --> 2:48:04.480 that happens like a few months ago where there was 2:48:04.520 --> 2:48:07.000 this concert. I think it was a Beyonce concert, must be. 2:48:07.959 --> 2:48:10.080 I can't remember who it was, but like so there 2:48:10.120 --> 2:48:11.720 was a stream of it in China and there was 2:48:11.760 --> 2:48:13.959 a guy there was a censor who was like putting 2:48:14.040 --> 2:48:16.520 like one of those gray out censored bars, like over 2:48:16.760 --> 2:48:19.000 over the singers closed because they were they were considered 2:48:19.040 --> 2:48:21.879 too explicit. And she's just like moving this like dot 2:48:22.040 --> 2:48:24.160 of like censorship thing across the stage, trying to fall 2:48:24.240 --> 2:48:26.640 Like this is the level of bullshit that happens here, 2:48:26.760 --> 2:48:29.600 Like it's it's not a thing that like the US 2:48:29.680 --> 2:48:33.000 really has much reference for because like we don't experience, 2:48:33.000 --> 2:48:34.199 like this is not a thing that you don't experience 2:48:34.200 --> 2:48:38.120 you experience in the US. Like, Yeah, sometimes I like 2:48:38.240 --> 2:48:41.800 to think about these things in terms of like like 2:48:42.040 --> 2:48:44.280 like all people talk about oh Well and Huxley as 2:48:44.320 --> 2:48:48.560 these dystopian novels, right, and imparhaps people don't read those novels, 2:48:49.160 --> 2:48:51.840 but they love to quote them. And like in all 2:48:51.879 --> 2:48:55.120 we else, we have like a system which like keeps 2:48:55.160 --> 2:48:57.600 you quiet by pushing you down, right, and in Huxley's 2:48:57.640 --> 2:49:00.320 we have a system which keeps you quiet by keeping 2:49:00.360 --> 2:49:03.360 you happy with with drugs and such, and like it. 2:49:03.480 --> 2:49:07.240 Then it's important to recognize it that it both things 2:49:07.280 --> 2:49:09.480 can be bad, but the material conditions in the day 2:49:09.560 --> 2:49:12.440 to the life of people, especially marginalized people in one society, 2:49:12.520 --> 2:49:17.560 can be markedly better. Yeah, well and I think also, 2:49:17.640 --> 2:49:20.400 like yeah, like I think it's we're not like the 2:49:21.000 --> 2:49:23.400 ways in which the American like there there are similarities, 2:49:23.400 --> 2:49:24.920 but like yeah, like there are lots of ways in 2:49:24.959 --> 2:49:27.440 which the sort of Chinese system and the American system 2:49:27.480 --> 2:49:31.720 are differently bad. And that breaks people's brains because you 2:49:31.800 --> 2:49:33.320 get a lot of like you get you get a 2:49:33.320 --> 2:49:35.280 lot of Americans who are convinced to become convinced that 2:49:35.320 --> 2:49:37.680 like China as a socialist paradise. There's a Chinese version 2:49:37.680 --> 2:49:39.280 of this where like you get international students who come 2:49:39.280 --> 2:49:40.720 to the US for the first time and see an election, 2:49:40.760 --> 2:49:43.000 and they like lose their minds and are like absolutely 2:49:43.040 --> 2:49:45.440 convinced that like American democracy is like the only table 2:49:45.440 --> 2:49:47.440 political system and they read Hyak and they like lose 2:49:47.560 --> 2:49:50.680 They just like they become the Chinese version of tank You's, 2:49:50.720 --> 2:49:53.560 which are like weird near liberal people. And it's like, no, 2:49:54.120 --> 2:49:57.840 like I know, actually, in fact, none of these things 2:49:57.879 --> 2:50:00.360 are good. Both of these societies are just like not 2:50:00.640 --> 2:50:02.600 good to live in in any way, and like, you know, 2:50:02.680 --> 2:50:04.560 and I think that there's nothing I should mention here, 2:50:04.879 --> 2:50:08.920 like why all of this sort of like bullshit posturing 2:50:09.000 --> 2:50:10.760 is happening between the US and China right now, which 2:50:10.800 --> 2:50:15.560 is that like on on the American side, like Biden 2:50:15.640 --> 2:50:17.160 is trying to distract from the fact that the country 2:50:17.200 --> 2:50:18.879 is falling apart and there's a bunch of fascists trying 2:50:18.879 --> 2:50:23.360 to take over, and like, you know, like all of 2:50:23.440 --> 2:50:27.200 this bullshit is happening. China is trying to distract from 2:50:27.200 --> 2:50:30.000 the fact that they have nineteen percent youth unemployment right 2:50:30.040 --> 2:50:34.520 now and that like there are there are like cops 2:50:34.600 --> 2:50:38.640 dispersing people doing runs on banks because the it finally 2:50:38.640 --> 2:50:40.480 looks like the Chinese housing bubble is about to crack, 2:50:40.760 --> 2:50:45.680 Like it's you know, this sort of nationalist stuff is 2:50:46.680 --> 2:50:48.800 like for for for China in the US, it is 2:50:48.920 --> 2:50:51.360 this sort of game that they play that has a 2:50:51.400 --> 2:50:53.920 lot to do basically with pacifying their own internal populations. 2:50:54.640 --> 2:50:58.680 But you know, for everyone in Taiwan, like it's not 2:50:58.800 --> 2:51:00.960 a game. And that's that's the thing I think I 2:51:01.040 --> 2:51:02.720 want to close on, which is like the single most 2:51:02.760 --> 2:51:05.440 important thing here is that there is no way for 2:51:05.560 --> 2:51:08.800 China to take control of Taiwan except by war. Of 2:51:08.840 --> 2:51:10.560 the population does not want to be ruled by China. 2:51:11.480 --> 2:51:14.280 Of the population of Taiwan wants to status quo. If 2:51:14.320 --> 2:51:17.720 you try to force Chinese rule of Taiwan, the only 2:51:17.760 --> 2:51:21.400 way to do it is by war and season and 2:51:21.520 --> 2:51:24.680 controlling season, control of and occupying a place with twenty 2:51:24.760 --> 2:51:27.400 three and a half million people is going to be 2:51:27.520 --> 2:51:29.120 a blood bath. There's no other way to do it, 2:51:29.720 --> 2:51:32.000 even if you are I don't want to leave this 2:51:32.040 --> 2:51:34.200 as sort of a message to people who like who 2:51:34.240 --> 2:51:36.800 don't agree with me on this, which is that if 2:51:36.840 --> 2:51:38.960 you've gotten to the end of this and you genuinely 2:51:39.040 --> 2:51:41.720 believe that Taiwan is part of China, are you willing 2:51:41.760 --> 2:51:44.000 to watch your family get burned alive for that principle? 2:51:44.720 --> 2:51:47.040 Because that that that is what you are asking us 2:51:47.160 --> 2:51:49.879 to do. You are asking us to watch our families 2:51:49.959 --> 2:51:52.840 die for your belief about lines in a map. And 2:51:53.000 --> 2:51:55.400 if if you are not willing to accept the consequences 2:51:55.440 --> 2:51:57.360 of your belief personally, if you are not willing to 2:51:57.440 --> 2:52:00.280 see your family get obliterated by a fucking rocket, then 2:52:00.360 --> 2:52:04.120 don't push for it to happen to us. And yeah, 2:52:04.240 --> 2:52:07.800 that is that. That is type one one on one. Um, Please, 2:52:08.000 --> 2:52:10.320 for the love of God, stop doing this bullshit. I 2:52:10.360 --> 2:52:15.600 don't want my family to die. I yeah, yeah, I 2:52:15.680 --> 2:52:18.480 think that's very well said mate, I think a lot 2:52:18.520 --> 2:52:21.560 of people are so detached from the underground consequences so 2:52:21.680 --> 2:52:26.520 they're like theoretical on Twitter dot compositions that it can 2:52:26.560 --> 2:52:29.000 be very easy to be incredibly callous to people who 2:52:29.080 --> 2:52:32.320 have loved one skin in the game. Yeah, and I 2:52:32.360 --> 2:52:34.800 think I think this is a part of it. Like no, 2:52:34.959 --> 2:52:37.560 like people on Twitter posting about this that there have 2:52:37.640 --> 2:52:39.440 no stake in this whatsoever. It doesn't matter to them. 2:52:39.480 --> 2:52:41.360 If everyone on top, if everyone who lives and I 2:52:41.440 --> 2:52:44.400 one died tomorrow, it would have no material effected them whatsoever, right, 2:52:44.480 --> 2:52:46.640 Like the worst thing that would maybe happen to them, 2:52:46.680 --> 2:52:47.920 it was it would be harder for them to get 2:52:47.920 --> 2:52:53.960 graphics cards. Yeah, you entire family, like this is this 2:52:54.080 --> 2:52:56.680 is this is twenty three million people, an enormous number 2:52:56.720 --> 2:52:58.600 of whom are going to die if this thing happens. 2:52:59.440 --> 2:53:06.000 So yeah, like on like, unless you are committed enough 2:53:06.040 --> 2:53:09.800 to this to kill your own family, then fucking stop 2:53:09.840 --> 2:53:14.800 posting about it, because that that that like, if you 2:53:14.840 --> 2:53:16.960 were not willing to materially accept the consequences of your 2:53:16.959 --> 2:53:20.160 own position on yourself, then you shouldn't have it. Yeah, 2:53:20.840 --> 2:53:26.520 especially when you're pretending to be left is Yeah, Yeah, 2:53:26.640 --> 2:53:29.720 that's this is this is gonna make it happen Here's yeah, 2:53:30.160 --> 2:53:35.440 don't don't have a Chinese invasion of Taiwan happened here? Yeah, 2:53:36.600 --> 2:53:41.080 overthrow your local settler quality. Yeah it settling clonings is bad. 2:53:41.160 --> 2:53:46.040 That's the official stunt of Yeah. Actually, I don't. I'm 2:53:46.080 --> 2:53:47.560 not sure if we can legally. I think I think 2:53:47.600 --> 2:53:49.560 we cantally say this the official stance of cools of 2:53:49.840 --> 2:53:51.840 cool Zign Media. I'm pretty sure we can't legally say 2:53:51.879 --> 2:53:58.039 it's the official stance. Yeah, if you cut that down. Yeah, yeah, 2:53:58.160 --> 2:54:03.520 here are cool Zone Media. We don't endors set like colonialism. Yeah, 2:54:03.680 --> 2:54:23.160 don't do it. War is bad, don't rocket cities. Welcome 2:54:23.160 --> 2:54:25.440 to dig it happened here a podcaster. We occasionally have 2:54:25.560 --> 2:54:29.800 introductions and mostly we have this and yeah that it's 2:54:29.840 --> 2:54:32.959 it's the podcast. Things fall apart, Things come back together again, 2:54:33.160 --> 2:54:36.320 they fall apart again, we put them back together again. Yeah, 2:54:36.520 --> 2:54:39.880 you know, you know the drill um. Yeah. And with 2:54:40.040 --> 2:54:44.720 me is James Glow. James, Hello, and speaking of things 2:54:44.840 --> 2:54:50.840 falling apart, we're talking today about the what what what 2:54:51.000 --> 2:54:53.720 it looks like when this sort of the interconnectivity of 2:54:53.760 --> 2:54:56.240 the American judicial system comes apart under the weight of 2:54:58.000 --> 2:55:01.800 dueling abortion laws, and with us to talk about that 2:55:02.120 --> 2:55:04.160 is a lot of people who have written a lot 2:55:04.240 --> 2:55:06.640 of very good stuff about this. So with us is 2:55:06.680 --> 2:55:09.720 Ali Handra car Baio, who is a clinical instructor at 2:55:09.760 --> 2:55:12.560 Harvard Law School Cyberlaw Clinic where she works on the 2:55:12.600 --> 2:55:18.200 intersection of gender and technology. Hello, welcome to the show. Um. 2:55:18.520 --> 2:55:22.160 We also have Michelle McGrath who is a public defender 2:55:22.959 --> 2:55:25.400 in New York City for like almost a decade and 2:55:25.520 --> 2:55:29.560 specializes in bail and parole litigation. Michelle, Welcome to the showy, 2:55:29.680 --> 2:55:35.640 happy to be here. And finally we have Evka Pierre 2:55:36.120 --> 2:55:40.000 who's a senior litigation counselor where she works at the 2:55:40.040 --> 2:55:43.720 intersection of reproductive and criminal law, and she is on 2:55:43.879 --> 2:55:46.680 cases where folks are criminalized for their pregnancy lass. So 2:55:47.520 --> 2:55:50.240 if you welcome, welcome to the show as well. So 2:55:50.560 --> 2:55:54.280 y'all have written, Actually, I don't it occurs to me 2:55:54.360 --> 2:55:58.160 that it's been long enough. This is still not published yet, right, Yes, 2:55:58.360 --> 2:56:01.800 it's so. It's basically we submitted it to Cuney Law 2:56:01.840 --> 2:56:04.720 Review and we're waiting for edits. We expect our Law 2:56:04.760 --> 2:56:09.480 Review article to be published in December um, so, but 2:56:09.760 --> 2:56:12.000 you know, we've we've basically created a t L d 2:56:12.200 --> 2:56:17.200 R that we we collaborated for Slate, so we you know, 2:56:17.360 --> 2:56:20.640 there's a word article on Slate. You can read that 2:56:20.720 --> 2:56:24.840 kind of condenses down our article from like words as 2:56:24.920 --> 2:56:29.320 much as we can. I we were we were graciously 2:56:29.360 --> 2:56:32.720 provided the long one, and so we read the long one. 2:56:32.720 --> 2:56:36.280 We're gonna really talk about it because yeah, it's it's 2:56:36.360 --> 2:56:40.640 it's a it's a really interesting look at I don't know, 2:56:41.080 --> 2:56:43.040 there's a lot of sort of points of Okay, so 2:56:43.160 --> 2:56:45.400 I guess we should rerun and talk about what this 2:56:45.480 --> 2:56:48.680 actually is, which is that one of the things that's 2:56:48.680 --> 2:56:52.879 been happening in the last I mean basically, since jobs 2:56:53.240 --> 2:56:59.480 is a series of questions about what Okay, so it's 2:56:59.480 --> 2:57:03.600 a series is about what happens if you are in 2:57:03.680 --> 2:57:06.640 a state where abortions are illegal and you go to 2:57:06.680 --> 2:57:10.920 another state and you get an abortion there, and yeah, 2:57:10.920 --> 2:57:15.440 and there there's lots of jurisdictional questions here and yeah, 2:57:15.480 --> 2:57:17.960 and this article is a very very sort of in 2:57:18.080 --> 2:57:20.760 depth and really interesting look at it. And I guess, okay, 2:57:20.800 --> 2:57:22.600 I want to jump into this at a kind of 2:57:22.640 --> 2:57:28.760 weird place, but I wanted to start with. One of 2:57:28.800 --> 2:57:30.000 the things that one of the things that's in this 2:57:30.400 --> 2:57:33.840 article that's I haven't really seen much discussion of is 2:57:34.040 --> 2:57:37.160 about the way that the sort of safe harbor laws 2:57:37.240 --> 2:57:40.800 that states have been setting up are being like if well, okay, 2:57:40.879 --> 2:57:42.800 the way that they can potentially be in the way 2:57:42.840 --> 2:57:45.879 that previous safe harbor laws for immigration stuff were sabotaged 2:57:45.959 --> 2:57:48.760 by the fact that like all of the cops are 2:57:49.680 --> 2:57:52.720 sending like all of their stuff to each other. So, yeah, 2:57:52.720 --> 2:57:54.040 I was wondering if you could talk a bit about that. 2:57:54.760 --> 2:57:57.680 I guess it's like a lead into it. Yeah, I 2:57:57.720 --> 2:58:01.320 mean I with respect to specifically, like how all the 2:58:01.720 --> 2:58:04.320 law enforcement is talking to each other. I think Alejandro 2:58:04.480 --> 2:58:06.880 might know a little more with respect to that. But 2:58:06.959 --> 2:58:11.320 when it comes to the way these laws are being 2:58:11.400 --> 2:58:15.360 written there, they really don't have the kind of teeth 2:58:15.720 --> 2:58:18.959 that sort of the politicians are spinning to the public. 2:58:19.080 --> 2:58:23.280 They're sort of letting folks think that, well, we would 2:58:23.320 --> 2:58:25.840 never we in New York would never send you to 2:58:26.040 --> 2:58:30.560 Texas for anything related to the criminalization of a pregnancy laws. Um. 2:58:30.959 --> 2:58:34.800 And because of the way the law of extradition works 2:58:34.879 --> 2:58:38.600 in the United States, which is actually a constitutional law Um, 2:58:40.680 --> 2:58:42.039 it's going to be hard in a lot of ways 2:58:42.120 --> 2:58:44.440 for them to resist that. And so we have our 2:58:44.560 --> 2:58:47.360 article does talk about a little bit um in actually 2:58:47.400 --> 2:58:50.160 great detail about how they could actually craft the craft 2:58:50.280 --> 2:58:53.080 laws that would be a little bit different. Yeah. I 2:58:53.160 --> 2:58:55.160 think one of the things that you know, this just 2:58:55.360 --> 2:58:57.240 this past week, there was the story that came out 2:58:57.320 --> 2:59:02.160 of Nebraska where Facebook provided the d MS of someone 2:59:02.240 --> 2:59:05.960 who's uh, you know, being charged with you know, it 2:59:06.360 --> 2:59:09.800 wasn't even charged with like like there wasn't a formal 2:59:09.920 --> 2:59:12.240 charge of like committing an abortion, like the person that 2:59:12.480 --> 2:59:15.080 was being charged it was like disposing of a body, 2:59:15.240 --> 2:59:19.800 like and uh they say hiding a body. And so 2:59:20.640 --> 2:59:22.760 Facebook like released a statement and was saying like, well, 2:59:22.800 --> 2:59:24.800 we weren't told that this had anything to do with 2:59:24.879 --> 2:59:28.800 an abortion, and like that's the exact problem, right, is 2:59:28.879 --> 2:59:31.640 that when states are going to seek extradition, they're going 2:59:31.680 --> 2:59:35.240 to bring charges that have probably nothing to do with 2:59:35.480 --> 2:59:37.520 it in the immediate like on its face, to do 2:59:37.640 --> 2:59:40.600 with abortion. It could just be like, you know, they 2:59:40.640 --> 2:59:44.880 can repurpose all kinds of laws like endangerment of a minor, right, 2:59:45.000 --> 2:59:47.280 Like they can do all these things that like would 2:59:47.480 --> 2:59:50.080 ordinarily like never reply in a pregnancy, but they can 2:59:50.120 --> 2:59:52.600 just kind of do it just to bring charges. Um. 2:59:52.800 --> 2:59:56.600 And so you know, um, my colleague who's fortune out 2:59:56.600 --> 2:59:58.640 here said their countant cook has has written about the 2:59:58.640 --> 3:00:02.320 successively about like the criminalization aspect. But in terms of 3:00:02.480 --> 3:00:05.080 like how you know these these safe harbor states, you know, 3:00:05.160 --> 3:00:07.600 these laws like are going to be very difficult. I 3:00:07.640 --> 3:00:09.800 think it is just really what we're dealing with their 3:00:09.800 --> 3:00:13.640 effects of surveillance capitalism. Right, So, like Facebook turned over 3:00:14.560 --> 3:00:17.360 these d ms. Facebook has been in the process of 3:00:17.440 --> 3:00:20.440 moving to end to end encryption, which basically would have 3:00:20.520 --> 3:00:23.520 made this impossible to do in the first place because 3:00:23.520 --> 3:00:26.560 it would have been similar to signal. But what Facebook 3:00:26.600 --> 3:00:28.240 did is because they realized that they would have lost 3:00:28.320 --> 3:00:32.640 access to data around people's messages and what they're talking about, 3:00:32.959 --> 3:00:37.520 they made it optional instead of by default. And suppose 3:00:37.560 --> 3:00:40.120 people who are not very tech savvy are very familiar 3:00:40.200 --> 3:00:42.240 or understanding of you know, who has access to the 3:00:42.320 --> 3:00:46.039 messages and whether the government can get access, they might 3:00:46.120 --> 3:00:48.320 not know that they can set this to end end 3:00:48.360 --> 3:00:52.280 to end encryption, and so essentially, like in pursuit of profit, 3:00:52.360 --> 3:00:55.880 Facebook doesn't enable this privacy feature. But this is the 3:00:55.920 --> 3:00:58.320 exact same kind of stuff, right, So, like Facebook has 3:00:58.320 --> 3:01:01.480 access to this data, but there's also this whole shady 3:01:01.640 --> 3:01:05.360 system of data brokers that gets access to all kinds 3:01:05.440 --> 3:01:07.720 of data. And that's exactly how I think were you 3:01:07.760 --> 3:01:11.199 alluded to when you ask this question about ICE having 3:01:11.320 --> 3:01:18.200 access to basically all this information on immigrants that states 3:01:18.280 --> 3:01:21.520 had swore they would never share with better immigration officials. 3:01:21.800 --> 3:01:25.920 Like ICE is basically built this entire shadow system where 3:01:25.959 --> 3:01:30.720 they're purchasing data about driver's licenses and all this stuff 3:01:31.240 --> 3:01:33.760 basically by the purchasing it on the open market, and 3:01:33.840 --> 3:01:39.360 that bypasses all kinds of formal data requisition requests, warrants, subpoenas, 3:01:39.520 --> 3:01:41.640 all those things that would normally be required because it's 3:01:41.680 --> 3:01:45.440 just freely available. So, you know, suffices to say, as 3:01:45.520 --> 3:01:48.400 much as these states may want to protect things on 3:01:48.560 --> 3:01:50.560 that end in terms of data, it's going to be 3:01:50.640 --> 3:01:52.680 incredibly hard to do so. And I think they're the 3:01:53.400 --> 3:01:58.040 previous efforts around UH, Safe Harvard for Immigrants UM and 3:01:58.080 --> 3:02:00.840 asylum states and things like that. UM, it's just gonna 3:02:00.879 --> 3:02:03.960 be really hard to enforce. Some practice, however, on the 3:02:05.480 --> 3:02:08.400 extradition side, when when like criminal charges are actually brought 3:02:08.920 --> 3:02:11.760 that there there is some things that states can actually 3:02:11.840 --> 3:02:14.720 do to help protect the folks who are caught up 3:02:15.000 --> 3:02:19.360 with any kind of abortion related charges in their states. Um. 3:02:19.520 --> 3:02:22.840 I just also want to jump into say that the 3:02:22.959 --> 3:02:26.360 system works the way that it works because nobody's monitoring it. 3:02:26.560 --> 3:02:29.640 So when we're talking about law enforcement officials that are 3:02:29.680 --> 3:02:34.120 talking to one another and getting information through very informal means, right, 3:02:34.600 --> 3:02:37.400 things that probably by the book, would take a warrant 3:02:37.480 --> 3:02:40.440 to go from one place to the other just takes 3:02:40.840 --> 3:02:45.280 Marcy calling over Janice that works that the other system 3:02:45.320 --> 3:02:49.400 and getting something faxed over, even if they're not doing 3:02:49.480 --> 3:02:51.400 it out of malice, it's just, oh, this is out 3:02:51.440 --> 3:02:53.320 of convenience. It makes life a lot easier to get 3:02:53.360 --> 3:02:55.960 information from this place to that place. And folks have 3:02:56.120 --> 3:02:58.879 these informal systems that are set up that even when 3:02:58.959 --> 3:03:01.840 the law says that they cannot do it, if we 3:03:01.920 --> 3:03:06.240 don't have safeguards that I hate to say go after 3:03:06.280 --> 3:03:09.240 people because it seems so carceral, but like that protects 3:03:09.800 --> 3:03:12.960 what the intent of the law is. It has no teeth. Right, 3:03:13.320 --> 3:03:16.840 if your law doesn't stop Marcy from calling Janice and 3:03:16.920 --> 3:03:20.280 getting information on someone that they're not supposed to have 3:03:20.400 --> 3:03:22.440 in your law doesn't matter. It's kind of in a 3:03:22.520 --> 3:03:25.840 nothing sandwich, right, Um, and I have plenty of thoughts 3:03:25.879 --> 3:03:28.040 and stuff to say about the criminalization when we get 3:03:28.120 --> 3:03:30.680 there later, because that's a lot of my work. But 3:03:30.840 --> 3:03:34.160 I think that gets to what Michelle and Alejandra and 3:03:34.240 --> 3:03:36.880 what um Conti who's not here, have found. It's just 3:03:38.720 --> 3:03:40.959 you gotta have something more than nothing sandwich. Is something 3:03:41.040 --> 3:03:43.840 more than something that seems good on the surface and 3:03:43.959 --> 3:03:46.000 doesn't actually help the people that we want to help. 3:03:46.560 --> 3:03:48.280 And I want to sort of help folks sort of 3:03:48.320 --> 3:03:50.720 understand how this plays out on the grounds. When the article, 3:03:50.760 --> 3:03:54.120 we we give an example, right, So, maybe I've got 3:03:54.160 --> 3:03:59.240 a New Yorker who gets prescribed a medication that would 3:03:59.360 --> 3:04:02.280 induce a war Osian and you know, they bring it 3:04:02.360 --> 3:04:05.560 to their friend in a state where that's criminalized, and 3:04:05.680 --> 3:04:09.880 they give their friend the medication, the pregnancy ends, Maybe 3:04:10.360 --> 3:04:13.879 the person is concerned and they go to the hospital. Um. 3:04:14.160 --> 3:04:18.240 Quite often nurses and doctors are part of the criminalization process, 3:04:18.440 --> 3:04:21.760 and so you know, maybe they call law enforcement official 3:04:23.000 --> 3:04:25.200 based on this information. They get a subpoena for that 3:04:25.320 --> 3:04:27.280 person's phone. So now they're in the phone and they 3:04:27.360 --> 3:04:30.000 can find out, Wow, they got this medicine from the 3:04:30.080 --> 3:04:36.240 New Yorker. Well, now now the person who took the medication, 3:04:37.360 --> 3:04:39.680 perhaps it's charged with homicide. Right. I think what's key 3:04:39.760 --> 3:04:41.920 here is that they're not necessarily going to be charged 3:04:41.959 --> 3:04:45.279 with abortion. Maybe they're charged with homicide. They're charged within fanticide. 3:04:45.520 --> 3:04:47.280 And guess what, the person who came from New York 3:04:47.400 --> 3:04:49.519 is now probably going to be charged as an accomplice. 3:04:49.840 --> 3:04:53.200 So now we have a warrant for for a homicide 3:04:54.040 --> 3:04:58.280 for the person in New York. Because of all the 3:04:58.360 --> 3:05:03.039 national databases that we have have, the NYPD, the any 3:05:03.120 --> 3:05:04.920 of the law enforcement in New York is going to see, 3:05:04.959 --> 3:05:08.360 oh that New Yorkers wanted for homicide, Let me go 3:05:08.600 --> 3:05:12.840 get that person. Um. And so when then that person 3:05:13.560 --> 3:05:16.200 comes in front of a judge, even though New York 3:05:16.840 --> 3:05:20.440 is saying or Connecticut is saying, you know, we're not 3:05:20.600 --> 3:05:23.720 going to give any resources to extradite someone related to 3:05:23.760 --> 3:05:27.280 the termination of pregnancy, Well they're just being brought before 3:05:27.360 --> 3:05:30.040 law enforcement in front of a judge who sees that 3:05:30.160 --> 3:05:33.760 there wanted for homicide, right, and so on the ground 3:05:35.800 --> 3:05:39.040 these laws don't have anything to stop them, and and 3:05:39.240 --> 3:05:42.600 so we've sort of suggested things that involve immediate rights 3:05:42.600 --> 3:05:45.920 to counsel people need to be released for extradition UM. 3:05:45.959 --> 3:05:47.600 And we can talk about some of those more, but 3:05:47.680 --> 3:05:49.520 I think it helps to sort of give that example 3:05:49.640 --> 3:05:52.680 to see how it's happening, how it would happen in 3:05:52.760 --> 3:05:57.440 real life. There's something else I wanted to sort of 3:05:57.480 --> 3:06:01.160 talk about this because one of the things that that 3:06:02.000 --> 3:06:05.920 on the sort of surveillance front has been the way 3:06:05.959 --> 3:06:08.200 in which like what we're seeing now is sort of 3:06:08.240 --> 3:06:11.800 the culmination of like a bunch of the types of 3:06:11.840 --> 3:06:13.720 surveillance that have been inflicted on a bunch of different 3:06:13.720 --> 3:06:15.680 groups of people. Do you have the antisex worker stuff, 3:06:15.680 --> 3:06:18.400 you have the deservation, the surveillance stuff that's music as immigrants, 3:06:18.440 --> 3:06:21.640 you have uh, the sort of post nine eleven like 3:06:22.000 --> 3:06:23.680 I mean, this is where the sort of fusion centers 3:06:24.040 --> 3:06:26.440 UM come from. Is the sort of like post nine 3:06:26.480 --> 3:06:29.560 eleven security state build up. And then you have the 3:06:29.600 --> 3:06:31.320 stuff that's been used to go after activists. And I 3:06:31.400 --> 3:06:34.560 think that's been really interesting to me to sort of, 3:06:34.680 --> 3:06:38.520 I mean incredibly like depressing too to watch has been Yeah, 3:06:38.560 --> 3:06:40.119 like I don't know, like I remember like the few 3:06:40.240 --> 3:06:41.879 like one of the things if you these fusion centers 3:06:41.879 --> 3:06:44.640 were like all of these sort of like law enforcement 3:06:44.680 --> 3:06:47.160 agencies like share information with each other, like I don't know, 3:06:47.240 --> 3:06:50.480 like I remember in like they were like sending one 3:06:50.520 --> 3:06:53.600 of my friends tweets around because that was one of 3:06:53.640 --> 3:06:55.959 the things they were doing to like go after people 3:06:56.040 --> 3:06:59.840 change their protests, and like, I don't know, I was 3:06:59.879 --> 3:07:03.040 interested in in this question of of these fusion centers 3:07:03.160 --> 3:07:07.320 because it's it's this I don't know, it's this real 3:07:07.440 --> 3:07:10.280 sort of like like it really seems like the sort 3:07:10.320 --> 3:07:12.120 of like the the next step of where all of 3:07:12.160 --> 3:07:16.200 this stuff goes is, you know, the fusion centers becomes 3:07:16.280 --> 3:07:18.880 becomes this place where it's really really easy to bypass 3:07:18.959 --> 3:07:21.120 the law because you know, all of this stuff is 3:07:21.160 --> 3:07:24.480 just getting shared anyways. And it brings up this other 3:07:24.920 --> 3:07:26.960 problem which I was interested in, which is about like 3:07:28.440 --> 3:07:31.879 to what extent can the state even control law enforcement 3:07:32.760 --> 3:07:38.400 because like, okay, like law enforcement are those like cops 3:07:38.520 --> 3:07:42.880 in general, very reactionary. There there's you know, if if 3:07:42.920 --> 3:07:44.720 you you know, if if if you go back into 3:07:44.760 --> 3:07:46.840 the history of the anti bustion movement, there's a lot 3:07:46.879 --> 3:07:49.560 of them being like aided to better it by the cops, 3:07:49.600 --> 3:07:52.240 and I was wondering, I don't know what what you 3:07:52.400 --> 3:07:56.880 think about, like, like what what what do you even 3:07:56.959 --> 3:07:58.800 do if the cops just decide they don't want follow 3:07:58.800 --> 3:08:00.920 the law at all, and they're just you know, they're 3:08:00.920 --> 3:08:02.840 gonna they're just gonna keep passing information on no matter 3:08:02.920 --> 3:08:05.880 what you do. I think Alejandra and I probably uh 3:08:06.720 --> 3:08:09.400 different on views about where things are going next, probably 3:08:09.520 --> 3:08:11.680 just because of the nature of our our work in 3:08:11.840 --> 3:08:14.720 the things that we're dealing with the most. So this 3:08:14.840 --> 3:08:19.720 is gonna be fun. So I I actually think so, well, yesterday, 3:08:19.840 --> 3:08:22.640 two days ago, whenever this airs, However, many days ago, 3:08:22.800 --> 3:08:25.320 one of our colleagues at if When how my colleague 3:08:25.360 --> 3:08:28.240 Laura Huss, who's brilliant UM has been working on this 3:08:28.360 --> 3:08:31.600 research project for like the last two years, tracking cases 3:08:31.920 --> 3:08:36.000 of when folks are criminalized for self managed abortion. Why 3:08:36.080 --> 3:08:39.320 self managed abortion, because that is the abortions that were 3:08:39.360 --> 3:08:42.920 happening outside of clinical spaces right that we're There were 3:08:42.959 --> 3:08:46.720 always questions about who can be criminalized for self managing 3:08:46.760 --> 3:08:49.040 their care. There weren't as many protections in the law 3:08:49.480 --> 3:08:51.800 for a lot of helpers and things like that in 3:08:52.080 --> 3:08:55.520 self managed care. So when her and her team looked 3:08:55.560 --> 3:08:58.920 at this data. UM. What they found was that the 3:08:59.040 --> 3:09:04.040 biggest risk of criminalization didn't actually necessarily come from UM 3:09:04.400 --> 3:09:07.959 external forces looking at big data, right, but was actually 3:09:08.040 --> 3:09:10.480 cut like the hell is other people. Because what they 3:09:10.520 --> 3:09:14.360 were finding was that nearly the majority of cases of 3:09:14.400 --> 3:09:16.800 folks coming to the attention of law enforcement was coming 3:09:16.840 --> 3:09:20.200 from medical professionals. So I want to say, I have 3:09:20.320 --> 3:09:25.720 the numbers in front of me somewhere it's UM. Well, 3:09:26.400 --> 3:09:29.400 so it's something like of folks that were reported to 3:09:29.480 --> 3:09:32.080 the police were reported by some sort of medical professional, 3:09:32.120 --> 3:09:34.160 whether that's a doctor, a social work, or a nurse 3:09:34.240 --> 3:09:36.400 or whoever, that was at a hospital when they were 3:09:36.440 --> 3:09:38.680 seeking care or they were getting prenatal care at some 3:09:38.720 --> 3:09:40.800 point when they found out they were pregnant. That's how 3:09:40.840 --> 3:09:44.680 they came to the attention of law enforcement. Another of 3:09:44.760 --> 3:09:47.279 those folks that came to the attention of law enforcement 3:09:47.360 --> 3:09:51.040 came to people that they told information to that they entrusted, 3:09:51.280 --> 3:09:53.720 whether that was a family member, a partner, a former partner, 3:09:53.800 --> 3:09:57.040 whoever the heck right. So, what we're finding is that 3:09:57.200 --> 3:09:59.520 the vast majority of people that came to the attention 3:09:59.560 --> 3:10:03.320 of law andforcement was because of folks, like actual people 3:10:03.560 --> 3:10:07.080 that had the information, and then that turned into them 3:10:07.160 --> 3:10:12.040 being individually targeted by police, and then that turned into 3:10:12.120 --> 3:10:15.600 their data being mined on their actual physical devices. Not 3:10:15.760 --> 3:10:20.160 like big brother down but small brother up right. So uh, 3:10:21.280 --> 3:10:24.400 When I certainly think about kind of how big data 3:10:24.480 --> 3:10:29.720 can be used and manipulated and like absolutely messed up 3:10:29.840 --> 3:10:32.120 to do a dragnet of folks, that's always kind of 3:10:32.160 --> 3:10:35.000 a possibility that's swimming. But I think the immediate possibility 3:10:35.120 --> 3:10:37.200 is like, how do you protect your individual data on 3:10:37.240 --> 3:10:40.400 your individual devices? What safety plan do you have in 3:10:40.560 --> 3:10:43.640 place about how you use the internet wholesale? Because I'm 3:10:43.640 --> 3:10:46.000 a lawyer, I can't tell people to commit crimes, but 3:10:46.080 --> 3:10:48.560 I can tell people to be very careful about how 3:10:48.640 --> 3:10:52.240 you manage your devices and how you manage information. Who 3:10:52.320 --> 3:10:56.600 do you tell your business to full stop? Right, because 3:10:56.959 --> 3:10:59.879 that's how folks are coming to the attention of law enforcement. 3:11:00.160 --> 3:11:03.920 Can the laws control cops? I think what we generally 3:11:04.040 --> 3:11:09.080 see is like, probably not um, but will the courts 3:11:09.320 --> 3:11:13.400 respond to cops that work outside of the law? I 3:11:13.520 --> 3:11:16.520 think the loyally awful answer is it depends on the 3:11:16.640 --> 3:11:19.200 jurisdiction that you managed to find yourself in Yeah, I 3:11:19.280 --> 3:11:21.840 think I think Keith guys just hit it right on 3:11:21.920 --> 3:11:24.720 the head. Um, you know, it's cybersecurity or weakest like 3:11:24.760 --> 3:11:27.680 as always a human element, So like that's always going 3:11:27.760 --> 3:11:29.640 to be the biggest concern, right, Like who are you 3:11:29.760 --> 3:11:33.039 telling about any of this? Like who knows about it? Um? 3:11:33.440 --> 3:11:36.160 Like you know, you know on a tangential as you're 3:11:36.160 --> 3:11:38.360 like with genderforming care in Texas, like one of the 3:11:38.640 --> 3:11:41.480 one of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit against Texas, like 3:11:42.760 --> 3:11:45.240 one of the trans boys like that that was like 3:11:45.840 --> 3:11:49.080 you know, found out about you know, Governor Abbott's letter 3:11:49.240 --> 3:11:53.279 to like basically equate gender firming care as child abuse 3:11:54.160 --> 3:11:57.279 attempted suicide and then when was taken to the hospital, 3:11:57.959 --> 3:12:01.720 the hospital staff then made a report to like the 3:12:01.800 --> 3:12:04.760 Department of Yeah, so I mean this was all in 3:12:05.120 --> 3:12:07.840 in the A. C. L Use lawsuit and it's like 3:12:07.959 --> 3:12:10.960 it's just insane, right, So like that that's exactly the thing, 3:12:11.040 --> 3:12:13.840 Like the biggest risk is always gonna be the human element, 3:12:13.959 --> 3:12:17.800 Like you're like the doctors, the nurses, your friends, like 3:12:18.120 --> 3:12:20.680 family members, you know it, and it might even be 3:12:20.760 --> 3:12:23.560 people like you deeply trust. You just never know, And 3:12:23.680 --> 3:12:26.000 so that's always going to be an aspect. But I 3:12:26.040 --> 3:12:29.280 think one of the biggest risks as well is is 3:12:29.320 --> 3:12:31.640 that the amount of data that we have now, like 3:12:31.800 --> 3:12:33.960 even if that can't be used like in a proactive 3:12:34.040 --> 3:12:36.880 way to like target people on the back ends, like 3:12:37.000 --> 3:12:39.160 once you do have that kind of friend turning you 3:12:39.200 --> 3:12:42.080 into like all of a sudden, they have intent. They 3:12:42.160 --> 3:12:44.360 have like all of these things from messages, they have 3:12:44.800 --> 3:12:47.959 location data. They show exactly where you were at what time. 3:12:48.400 --> 3:12:50.760 Like it's it's just like the perfect surveillance system that 3:12:50.840 --> 3:12:55.400 basically makes like any kind of reasonable defense nearly impossible, right, 3:12:55.480 --> 3:12:57.480 Like they can show where you were, who you talked 3:12:57.520 --> 3:13:01.640 to um. And so I think that the best tweet 3:13:01.680 --> 3:13:04.320 that I saw about this is from from someone who 3:13:04.360 --> 3:13:07.400 works at Digital Defense Fund, and they're basically like there 3:13:07.520 --> 3:13:10.000 um actually might not have been them. I just remember 3:13:10.000 --> 3:13:12.960 it was just like there there is no conversation about 3:13:13.120 --> 3:13:17.160 criminal activity. There is only conspiracy. Like basically it's like 3:13:17.520 --> 3:13:20.120 any time you're chatting about any of this stuff, Like 3:13:20.800 --> 3:13:23.480 it's basically like that that in itself can be potentially 3:13:23.520 --> 3:13:25.720 considered like criminal conduct, and like that can be used 3:13:25.800 --> 3:13:28.680 like as intent and like all these things and like 3:13:29.160 --> 3:13:32.360 um in prosecution. So like there's all of those aspects, 3:13:32.400 --> 3:13:34.160 and I think just to answer your your question like 3:13:34.240 --> 3:13:37.360 more broadly on on what police can be done, like 3:13:37.800 --> 3:13:40.040 like to be honest, I guess an attorney, it's been 3:13:40.200 --> 3:13:45.880 very very frustrating seeing qualified immunity just being like increased, 3:13:45.959 --> 3:13:48.440 right like, so so basically there's been no appetite by 3:13:48.480 --> 3:13:52.440 the courts to like like remove this doctrine or whittle 3:13:52.480 --> 3:13:55.480 it away actually like being rapidly expanded, especially in aspect 3:13:55.520 --> 3:13:59.720 around um federal agents. Right and now like there's some 3:14:00.400 --> 3:14:02.840 can you explain, sorry briefly just what that is for 3:14:02.920 --> 3:14:05.760 people who don't know. So, qualified immunity basically means that 3:14:06.320 --> 3:14:09.760 you can't bring a civil rights lawsuit, particularly what it 3:14:09.840 --> 3:14:12.240 call like a nineteen eighty three lawsuit, which is like 3:14:12.320 --> 3:14:15.000 the federal statute that allows you to bring civil rights 3:14:15.440 --> 3:14:20.480 lawsuits against state and federal individuals for um, any kind 3:14:20.520 --> 3:14:23.320 of civil rights abuses. And it's everything from like discrimination 3:14:23.400 --> 3:14:26.600 on basis of race to basically you know, the cop 3:14:26.720 --> 3:14:29.240 beating someone you know within an inch of their life 3:14:29.280 --> 3:14:31.920 though so basically any any kind of civilis violations. It's 3:14:31.920 --> 3:14:33.920 called like a nineteen eight three case, which is like 3:14:33.959 --> 3:14:35.879 the citation is the actual law that like dates back 3:14:35.920 --> 3:14:39.200 to the nineteenth century, Like it's part of um like 3:14:39.360 --> 3:14:42.080 the ku klux Klient Acts, which like so this is 3:14:42.320 --> 3:14:45.119 a long running like civil rights statute that really gained 3:14:45.200 --> 3:14:49.240 prominence in the last sixty years. But you know, so 3:14:49.360 --> 3:14:51.920 basically what qualified immunity does is it basically says it, well, 3:14:51.920 --> 3:14:54.800 if it wasn't a clearly established right when this abuse 3:14:54.959 --> 3:14:59.160 or violation of your civil rights happened, the officer or 3:14:59.200 --> 3:15:02.240 the government of show it can't be held liable for it. 3:15:02.600 --> 3:15:04.840 So basically like and the way that they do it 3:15:05.000 --> 3:15:07.840 is very strictly interpreted. It was like clearly established right. 3:15:07.879 --> 3:15:10.760 So it's like, well, I wasn't clearly established right that 3:15:10.840 --> 3:15:13.040 you weren't supposed to be able to be beaten with 3:15:13.120 --> 3:15:16.440 a baton like and it's just like what like it's 3:15:16.920 --> 3:15:19.400 some of these cases get really crazy. I'm not an 3:15:19.440 --> 3:15:21.520 expert on this by any means, but like I've I've 3:15:21.760 --> 3:15:25.879 you know, come across a few, and it's it's absolutely insane. 3:15:25.959 --> 3:15:29.120 Like how how like narrowly they'll they'll oftentimes like define 3:15:29.240 --> 3:15:32.240 what like clearly like it's not like you know, broadly 3:15:32.320 --> 3:15:35.800 defined right of like maybe police officers shouldn't beating people. Um, 3:15:36.520 --> 3:15:38.119 but you know, and I think it was. It was'ce 3:15:38.160 --> 3:15:40.760 even crazier is that this law or there's an upcoming 3:15:40.840 --> 3:15:42.760 lar of the article by this professor that I was 3:15:42.840 --> 3:15:47.280 just came across the other day and like, apparently there 3:15:47.440 --> 3:15:50.200 is a whole provision of nineteen eight of the section 3:15:51.720 --> 3:15:54.800 that has been omitted from the Federal Register for a 3:15:54.920 --> 3:15:58.880 hundred and like forty years. Basically like a clerk omitted 3:15:58.920 --> 3:16:04.560 a section and this large like this this um like 3:16:04.720 --> 3:16:07.760 the Farriarca basically uncovered this omission that should have been 3:16:07.800 --> 3:16:12.800 in it passed in Congress. I'm like, but hey, if 3:16:12.879 --> 3:16:16.000 you we didn't. It wasn't a clearly established right Alejandra, 3:16:16.240 --> 3:16:19.880 So does it really apply? The one that I'm like 3:16:20.000 --> 3:16:21.840 haunted by that that I read about that was that 3:16:21.920 --> 3:16:23.920 was one of the qualified beauty cases was like there 3:16:24.000 --> 3:16:25.560 was a guy who got lit on fire by a 3:16:25.600 --> 3:16:28.760 cop with the taser, and the courts ruled that because 3:16:29.000 --> 3:16:31.720 because there hadn't been a prior instance of someone's like that, 3:16:32.080 --> 3:16:34.000 you don't have clearly established right for a cop. Don't 3:16:34.240 --> 3:16:36.360 you on fire with the taser? Yeah? And you know 3:16:36.360 --> 3:16:37.800 you can. Guy burned it death because again you got 3:16:37.840 --> 3:16:39.960 lit on fire with a taser, like because because there 3:16:39.959 --> 3:16:41.440 wasn't a clearly everything. It's like this is like this 3:16:41.560 --> 3:16:45.200 is like the worst, Like yeah, the secret is it's 3:16:45.280 --> 3:16:51.600 never it's never clearly established like like mostly folks lose 3:16:51.760 --> 3:16:55.480 these lawsuits. And I mean this is where you know, 3:16:55.600 --> 3:16:58.880 I think folks need to recognize and I say this 3:16:59.040 --> 3:17:00.640 very much as a lawyer, that the law is not 3:17:00.800 --> 3:17:02.200 at the end of the day, what's going to save 3:17:02.320 --> 3:17:06.320 us like collective organizing and working together to keep each 3:17:06.320 --> 3:17:11.640 other safe. Is because the law is not designed to 3:17:11.879 --> 3:17:16.680 hold police accountable. It is not designed to keep people 3:17:16.680 --> 3:17:19.920 out of jail. In fact, it's designed to do the opposite, right, 3:17:20.000 --> 3:17:21.800 And I think we're going to see a whole lot 3:17:21.879 --> 3:17:26.440 of folks start to understand how criminalization works in a 3:17:26.560 --> 3:17:29.320 way that they may not have realized before. And to 3:17:29.440 --> 3:17:32.959 your question, like as a public defender in New York 3:17:33.040 --> 3:17:35.960 City who spent many of those years in the Bronx, like, no, 3:17:36.320 --> 3:17:39.480 the police are not accountable to anyone and they continually 3:17:39.560 --> 3:17:42.600 do unlawful things all day. And this is part part 3:17:42.640 --> 3:17:47.200 of one of the solutions. And again, all of these 3:17:47.240 --> 3:17:50.000 are stopgap measures so that people have time to plan 3:17:50.120 --> 3:17:53.120 and plot and organize and and and do what they 3:17:53.160 --> 3:17:58.320 need to do. But is that in these states that 3:17:58.400 --> 3:17:59.920 are saying, oh, we're not you know, we're going to 3:18:00.080 --> 3:18:02.720 keep state resources away. No, no one shall use state 3:18:02.800 --> 3:18:05.680 resources to move someone for any of these you know, 3:18:05.760 --> 3:18:10.560 criminalization of pregnancy. UM. But we imagine that law enforcement 3:18:10.680 --> 3:18:13.680 is generally a rather conservative group of people will simply 3:18:13.800 --> 3:18:17.520 disagree with that law and probably at times do things anyway. Right, 3:18:17.760 --> 3:18:19.879 And sure we can file a lawsuit later, but that's 3:18:19.920 --> 3:18:22.560 not really preventing the harm in the interim, right, like 3:18:22.600 --> 3:18:25.360 someone's going to be incarcerated. All of these things are 3:18:25.400 --> 3:18:28.960 going to happen. And so one of our proposals is 3:18:29.040 --> 3:18:32.600 that it should be crystal clear that any any state 3:18:32.640 --> 3:18:40.320 actor who does participate in such extradition can be sued individually. 3:18:40.400 --> 3:18:43.080 They will have none of this qualified immunity. It will 3:18:43.160 --> 3:18:47.200 not exist. Now, Listen, this seems very reasonable to me 3:18:47.480 --> 3:18:49.400 and to us, But do I think it's something that 3:18:49.600 --> 3:18:53.560 the legislature will actually pass. I'm not particularly optimistic about 3:18:53.640 --> 3:18:55.800 most of our proposals on this because it will mean 3:18:55.800 --> 3:18:59.240 a lot of other folks who will not be criminalized. 3:18:59.280 --> 3:19:02.520 In addition to UM, folks whore criminalized for abortion. But 3:19:02.640 --> 3:19:05.879 so so I do think that that that does police. 3:19:06.680 --> 3:19:10.280 You have a problem with rampant police impunity uh in 3:19:10.400 --> 3:19:13.800 this country. UM, and it will show up here just 3:19:13.959 --> 3:19:17.640 like it does in many other sectors. I think sometimes 3:19:17.680 --> 3:19:21.119 when we talk about criminalization of abortion wholesale, for folks 3:19:21.160 --> 3:19:24.000 that have not been working in and about repro it 3:19:24.120 --> 3:19:27.320 feels very new, like this is something that we need 3:19:27.400 --> 3:19:29.320 to kind of like gird our loins and prepare for. 3:19:29.560 --> 3:19:32.800 But folks that have been working in the RHRJ movements 3:19:32.840 --> 3:19:37.600 reproductive rights, health and justice movements, UM, we have been 3:19:37.640 --> 3:19:41.360 talking about criminalization for a long time. And the reason 3:19:41.440 --> 3:19:43.880 that we've been talking about criminalizations because it's been happening 3:19:43.920 --> 3:19:45.840 for a long time. So I was talking about my 3:19:45.879 --> 3:19:49.360 colleagues research that, um, the preliminary and folk just came out. 3:19:49.720 --> 3:19:52.840 So when she was combing through all of these like 3:19:53.800 --> 3:19:56.880 different clerks offices all over the country, she unearthed like 3:19:56.959 --> 3:19:59.720 sixty one cases of folks being criminalized with self managed 3:19:59.720 --> 3:20:03.640 aboard and in twenty states now we only have three 3:20:03.800 --> 3:20:07.400 states that have laws criminalizing self managed abortion left on 3:20:07.440 --> 3:20:10.240 the books. So holy crap. The fact that there have 3:20:10.360 --> 3:20:14.520 been prosecutions in twenty states when only I think at 3:20:14.560 --> 3:20:16.920 the time that some of these cases were about only 3:20:16.959 --> 3:20:19.560 like five or six states had these laws on the books. 3:20:19.640 --> 3:20:23.720 Tell us that prosecutors are very, very creative in the 3:20:23.760 --> 3:20:28.360 ways that they go after people. So the likelihood of 3:20:28.720 --> 3:20:32.080 always seeing abortion written at the top of the warrant 3:20:32.280 --> 3:20:34.400 is going to be low. And then in some states 3:20:34.480 --> 3:20:36.160 we are going to start seeing it because they are 3:20:36.240 --> 3:20:39.640 going to if they haven't already criminalized abortion wholesale, any 3:20:39.760 --> 3:20:41.959 kind of abortion right, all abortions are going to become 3:20:42.200 --> 3:20:44.280 self managed because their folks are not able to get 3:20:44.320 --> 3:20:47.400 clinical care. So it's it's not new, and I think 3:20:47.480 --> 3:20:48.680 that's one of the things that I want to make 3:20:48.720 --> 3:20:53.720 sure that folks understand that there like criminal defense attorneys 3:20:53.760 --> 3:20:56.640 can and can deal with this because it's just the 3:20:56.720 --> 3:20:58.960 same messed up ways that they charge people in a 3:20:59.040 --> 3:21:03.280 variety of other cases. But I think the shock and 3:21:03.400 --> 3:21:08.199 awe um that's hitting some folks who the criminal legal 3:21:08.240 --> 3:21:12.960 system doesn't move within their lives is I need folks 3:21:13.040 --> 3:21:15.320 to get out of shock and all quick and get 3:21:15.400 --> 3:21:18.360 into work mode because some of the things that I'm 3:21:18.400 --> 3:21:20.440 seeing on the internet. While we're talking about how hell 3:21:20.560 --> 3:21:22.480 is other people and how we can protect ourselves in 3:21:22.520 --> 3:21:26.520 our communities. Um, some of the ways that folks are 3:21:26.560 --> 3:21:28.680 talking about this on the Internet shows that they're not 3:21:28.800 --> 3:21:31.920 people that have had the impact of the criminal legal 3:21:31.959 --> 3:21:34.920 system necessarily touched their lives, right, Like folks that think 3:21:34.959 --> 3:21:38.080 they're doing op set on Twitter. But like, if you 3:21:38.160 --> 3:21:41.040 want to get a manicure, you can come to my 3:21:41.800 --> 3:21:44.200 state and I'll pick you up for your manicure. And 3:21:44.879 --> 3:21:50.840 that's when we talk about how cases get put together 3:21:50.920 --> 3:21:53.080 on the back end. And I think, um Michelle can 3:21:53.200 --> 3:21:55.560 probably speak to this too, like as a public defender, 3:21:55.600 --> 3:21:58.880 when you're seeing how when you have a very motivated 3:21:58.959 --> 3:22:01.960 prosecutor a cop that actually knows how to do their 3:22:02.080 --> 3:22:04.640 job in the information that they're able to gather when 3:22:04.720 --> 3:22:10.360 they investigate. Yes, they will pull your tweets. Yes, even 3:22:10.440 --> 3:22:12.800 if it's not your case, they will pull your tweets 3:22:13.120 --> 3:22:16.040 and connect that person that got their abortion to the 3:22:16.120 --> 3:22:19.000 tweets that you put online to show that they intended 3:22:19.040 --> 3:22:21.279 to go to your place to go and get an abortion, 3:22:21.600 --> 3:22:24.040 and then try to use those things to prosecute them 3:22:24.120 --> 3:22:26.440 over here. So even if you're willing to take the 3:22:26.520 --> 3:22:28.600 risk with your own life, if you're trying to help people, 3:22:28.959 --> 3:22:30.640 don't put them in a position that they can be 3:22:31.240 --> 3:22:34.039 harmed by some of the things that we say out loud. 3:22:34.600 --> 3:22:36.440 Because if you're living in a state where you're not 3:22:36.600 --> 3:22:39.280 afraid of criminalization, but the person you aren't trying to 3:22:39.360 --> 3:22:41.880 help is in a state that and they have to 3:22:41.959 --> 3:22:44.480 go back to somewhere they can be criminalized, you gotta 3:22:44.480 --> 3:22:47.720 think about how you're protecting them. That's my soapbox rant. 3:22:48.959 --> 3:22:51.800 I think that's really valuable. Actually this like we start 3:22:51.879 --> 3:22:55.240 letting the Trump administration to this like legal constitutional magic 3:22:55.680 --> 3:23:01.640 that like like they steth Abramson, the the Twitter thread 3:23:01.680 --> 3:23:06.560 guy right like it's it's yeah, it distracts from useful 3:23:06.680 --> 3:23:09.080 organizing a mutual aid because people are just like, well 3:23:09.120 --> 3:23:10.600 if this and this and this and this and this, 3:23:10.840 --> 3:23:12.600 and then like I understand this and no one else 3:23:12.680 --> 3:23:15.040 does and this is a special secret. And then if 3:23:15.040 --> 3:23:16.760 we do this and turn around three times and go 3:23:16.879 --> 3:23:19.040 through the wardrobe and Donald Trump will be impeached or 3:23:19.680 --> 3:23:21.040 you know, I can give you it a safe a 3:23:21.120 --> 3:23:24.920 safe of safe access to reproductive healthcare rather than just 3:23:25.040 --> 3:23:27.960 doing the work. And I think another part of what 3:23:28.120 --> 3:23:29.920 was going on here and this has been something that like, 3:23:32.879 --> 3:23:34.200 you know, if you if you talk to people who've 3:23:34.240 --> 3:23:38.640 been doing this, like okay, if if if this is 3:23:38.680 --> 3:23:40.600 the thing you genuinely want to do, there are people 3:23:40.640 --> 3:23:42.920 who have been doing this kind of work for decades 3:23:42.959 --> 3:23:46.040 and decades and decades of decades, and they know largely 3:23:46.120 --> 3:23:47.720 what is safe and what isn't and more stuff is 3:23:47.720 --> 3:23:49.680 a factor for not And the way that this sort 3:23:49.680 --> 3:23:54.720 of like like the kind of sort of like, hey, 3:23:54.800 --> 3:23:56.280 I'm going to go do this on my own. I 3:23:56.360 --> 3:23:57.760 have I've never done this before. I don't know what 3:23:57.800 --> 3:23:59.959 I'm doing, but here I'm going to sort of signal 3:24:00.080 --> 3:24:02.320 that I can do this thing. Like, go talk if 3:24:02.360 --> 3:24:03.760 you want to do those go talk to the people 3:24:03.800 --> 3:24:06.000 who have been doing it for ages, and go support 3:24:06.040 --> 3:24:09.880 them because, like you know, again, like the reason the 3:24:09.920 --> 3:24:11.720 reason we're here in the first place is because that 3:24:11.879 --> 3:24:16.120 this whole, like the entire right to abortion has for 3:24:16.600 --> 3:24:20.119 literally decades, been supported by just a really tiny number 3:24:20.280 --> 3:24:25.800 of incredibly underfunded and understaffed people in organizations. So like, 3:24:26.000 --> 3:24:29.320 go help them, don't like strike out on your own 3:24:29.400 --> 3:24:32.600 to boldly get you and everyone you're working with arrested. Yeah, 3:24:32.840 --> 3:24:34.360 I think you know some of that is you know, 3:24:34.440 --> 3:24:36.920 I think some people have some good intentions, but my god, 3:24:37.040 --> 3:24:38.840 like that energy can be spent in so much more 3:24:38.879 --> 3:24:41.760 productive ways, and it's it's kind of unfortunate. I think 3:24:41.800 --> 3:24:43.680 that the worst aspect of it, though, is like the 3:24:43.760 --> 3:24:45.640 tech bros coming in and being like, I'm going to 3:24:45.760 --> 3:24:49.920 save this space with We're going to create a dow 3:24:50.360 --> 3:24:53.879 and like distribute funds, and I'm like, oh my god, 3:24:54.120 --> 3:24:56.720 Like I'm just sitting here, like, you know, because this 3:24:56.879 --> 3:25:00.400 is something like you know, I've looked into is students 3:25:00.560 --> 3:25:03.080 like this earlier this year, like you know, how payment 3:25:03.160 --> 3:25:08.080 transactions could be used, um and basically how there's basically 3:25:08.080 --> 3:25:11.200 almost no security with with payment transactions, right, like like 3:25:11.280 --> 3:25:13.680 if you're using Venmo, which which in and of itself 3:25:13.760 --> 3:25:16.600 has like a social media function, so like you know, 3:25:16.680 --> 3:25:19.480 you can see when you're your friend, you know, Joe 3:25:19.720 --> 3:25:23.040 is like getting brunch on Sunday, and like, you know, 3:25:23.160 --> 3:25:24.560 they could you know, if you're not sending that to 3:25:24.680 --> 3:25:27.320 private by default, like that that's already a problem. But basically, 3:25:27.400 --> 3:25:30.080 like you know, they can get access to those records 3:25:30.120 --> 3:25:33.480 pretty easily, um, in a much easier way. And you know, 3:25:33.560 --> 3:25:35.119 one of the things we we we started to look 3:25:35.120 --> 3:25:36.840 at like towards the end was like, oh you know 3:25:37.600 --> 3:25:39.440 has you know had some some students being like, well, 3:25:39.680 --> 3:25:41.920 can you can you use krypto? Can you use like bitcoin? 3:25:42.000 --> 3:25:44.120 It's like you still have to interact at some point 3:25:44.160 --> 3:25:46.920 with a financial institution and they can tie these things back. 3:25:47.040 --> 3:25:50.320 It is not that exceptionally hard, especially like now it's 3:25:50.440 --> 3:25:52.960 been shown that like coin bases like cooperating with the 3:25:53.040 --> 3:25:55.320 FEDS and basically acting like a giant honey pot. So 3:25:56.080 --> 3:25:59.040 like I just I finally wish that people would just 3:25:59.800 --> 3:26:02.520 like realize that like technology is not going to save 3:26:02.600 --> 3:26:06.879 us here, Like it can help if used wisely and creatively, 3:26:07.080 --> 3:26:09.400 but don't think that like you're just gonna like do 3:26:09.560 --> 3:26:11.600 this one little neat trick, like as James was saying, 3:26:11.720 --> 3:26:14.760 and then suddenly we're gonna fix this because it's not right, 3:26:14.840 --> 3:26:18.000 Like this is going to take a million different solutions 3:26:18.080 --> 3:26:20.959 with a million different people doing all the little things 3:26:21.000 --> 3:26:22.640 that they can to push back. And like that's one 3:26:22.640 --> 3:26:24.200 of the things I think we we tried to be 3:26:24.440 --> 3:26:27.040 very hopble about in our papers, like look, none of 3:26:27.120 --> 3:26:29.400 this is a silver bullet. We're just trying to provide 3:26:29.520 --> 3:26:33.800 some concrete solutions that states can take and some stuff 3:26:33.840 --> 3:26:36.040 that they can take, but we realize that nothing is 3:26:36.120 --> 3:26:38.040 ever going to be perfect to solve this kind of 3:26:38.080 --> 3:26:40.920 Pandora's box. It's been opened by a Lido and all 3:26:40.959 --> 3:26:44.520 these like right wing reactionaries on the court. So like, 3:26:44.760 --> 3:26:47.119 I guess speaking of things that are not silver bullets 3:26:47.160 --> 3:26:50.640 and will not save us. Um, Yeah, I guess could 3:26:50.680 --> 3:26:53.960 we get a bit more into looking at what the 3:26:54.120 --> 3:26:56.360 sort of like It's like a lot of the article 3:26:56.520 --> 3:27:05.000 is talking about I guess, the the the history of extradition, uh, 3:27:05.080 --> 3:27:07.279 and how how that sort of been understood and interpreted, 3:27:07.280 --> 3:27:09.120 And so I guess I was wondering, Yeah, can we 3:27:09.200 --> 3:27:13.840 go into talking about what the sort of legal stuff 3:27:13.959 --> 3:27:15.800 is going to look like when it's like, you know, 3:27:15.920 --> 3:27:18.320 if if we start getting these large showdowns between like 3:27:18.600 --> 3:27:21.240 states with like actually sort of like you know, if 3:27:21.280 --> 3:27:24.760 states actually start trying to have sanctuary laws that are 3:27:24.879 --> 3:27:27.200 like have teeth and are good, what what what is 3:27:27.240 --> 3:27:29.280 that sort of what is that going to look like? Yeah, 3:27:29.400 --> 3:27:31.560 So this is a kind of part that I focused 3:27:31.600 --> 3:27:33.680 on in the article. And so basically a lot of 3:27:33.680 --> 3:27:36.040 people aren't aware about this because it's not really a 3:27:36.520 --> 3:27:39.439 contested area of the Constitution. But basically when the Constitution 3:27:39.520 --> 3:27:42.920 was drafted um and ratified, it contained what was called 3:27:42.920 --> 3:27:45.760 the extradition Clause, and basically what it said is that, 3:27:46.320 --> 3:27:49.840 you know, all the states have a duty to turn 3:27:50.000 --> 3:27:54.240 over fugitives from other states that have been charged with 3:27:54.360 --> 3:27:57.080 the crime and have fled into those states. Is the 3:27:57.200 --> 3:27:59.080 United States kind of where it's a federal system, so 3:27:59.200 --> 3:28:01.160 like every state is still considered kind of its own 3:28:01.240 --> 3:28:04.600 sovereign in some ways, in a very quasi sovereign way. 3:28:05.000 --> 3:28:07.240 And so there was a question about, you know, since 3:28:07.280 --> 3:28:12.119 all criminal prosecutions, basically especially the inception of the United States, 3:28:12.160 --> 3:28:14.800 were done at the state level, you know, what what 3:28:14.920 --> 3:28:18.200 happens when somebody crosses and across state lines? Like how 3:28:18.240 --> 3:28:20.720 are we going to handle that? And so basically this 3:28:20.959 --> 3:28:23.720 was you know, one of the drafts. And initially they 3:28:23.840 --> 3:28:25.760 tried to set it at a higher bar, like to 3:28:25.840 --> 3:28:28.200 be like high crimes and misdemeanors, similar to kind of 3:28:28.280 --> 3:28:34.000 the impeachment clause, and you know, they whittled it down 3:28:34.040 --> 3:28:37.840 to and basically made it very applicable as at all crimes, um. 3:28:38.040 --> 3:28:41.720 But it really did not get much play until basically 3:28:41.760 --> 3:28:46.280 in the eighteen forties when obviously, the tension around slavery 3:28:46.560 --> 3:28:50.600 picked up, right, So you had enslaved people escaping to 3:28:50.680 --> 3:28:53.640 the north and the South being very angry about that 3:28:53.760 --> 3:28:57.240 and wanting the North to to return. Um then escaped 3:28:57.360 --> 3:29:01.960 enslave folks and the North being like no. And Congress 3:29:02.200 --> 3:29:06.920 tried to figure out a way to like thread some 3:29:07.000 --> 3:29:09.160 kind of needle, but made it ten times worse and 3:29:09.200 --> 3:29:11.720 put us on an accelerating path towards Civil war by 3:29:11.760 --> 3:29:15.600 passing the Fugitive Slave Act of eighteen fifty. And a 3:29:15.680 --> 3:29:19.640 bunch of radical abolitionists in the Northeast were like, we 3:29:19.879 --> 3:29:21.920 don't ever want to comply with this, right, So like 3:29:22.080 --> 3:29:25.280 Vermont passed this bill called the Habeas Corpus Act, which 3:29:25.320 --> 3:29:30.080 basically created all kinds of legal procedures so that Southern 3:29:30.240 --> 3:29:33.120 bounty hunters wouldn't just come into the state and just kidnap, 3:29:33.440 --> 3:29:35.879 you know, the first black person they saw, because they 3:29:35.920 --> 3:29:38.200 assumed that they were been an escaped and slave person 3:29:38.320 --> 3:29:41.560 rather than a free person. And you know, and it 3:29:41.720 --> 3:29:44.080 was trying to stop that kind of issue of kidnappings 3:29:44.240 --> 3:29:46.600 and also just not to comply with this, you know, 3:29:46.760 --> 3:29:50.040 the institution of slavery, because there were people who had 3:29:50.240 --> 3:29:53.480 escaped slavery and were in the North, and so it 3:29:53.640 --> 3:29:56.680 was causing all kinds of tension. And while like the 3:29:57.240 --> 3:30:01.000 Vermont Law was never fully tested, it did create a 3:30:01.040 --> 3:30:03.760 lot of incendiary back and force between the North and 3:30:03.840 --> 3:30:06.400 the South and then the press, and it was really 3:30:06.440 --> 3:30:09.440 interesting like reading some of these old newspaper articles from 3:30:09.480 --> 3:30:12.320 the eighteen like from eighteen fifty, because it was like 3:30:12.400 --> 3:30:14.880 basically the press and Richmond and the press in Boston 3:30:15.000 --> 3:30:17.760 like taking stabs at each other. And it was like 3:30:18.360 --> 3:30:21.360 the eighteen fifty version of ship posting, because they were 3:30:21.440 --> 3:30:24.880 like one person was just like this is nullification made easy, 3:30:25.240 --> 3:30:28.920 and like basically with like it's just it was. It 3:30:29.000 --> 3:30:31.120 was the surreal thing like if you know, if you 3:30:31.200 --> 3:30:33.280 get a chance when when our full article comes out 3:30:33.280 --> 3:30:36.520 in December, there'll be some some highlights from that and 3:30:36.600 --> 3:30:40.800 the notes um. But basically what it really got tested 3:30:40.920 --> 3:30:43.240 was in eighteen sixty one. The case started in eighteen 3:30:43.280 --> 3:30:46.040 fifty nine, though it's called Kentucky be Dennisent and so 3:30:46.120 --> 3:30:48.879 what what essentially happened is there was someone who aided 3:30:49.600 --> 3:30:52.680 Um and it's like person escape Kentucky and get to 3:30:52.840 --> 3:30:56.680 Ohio and basically the governor of Ohio was an abolitionist 3:30:56.720 --> 3:30:58.160 and was like, I don't want to comply with this 3:30:58.400 --> 3:31:00.440 right and I do not want to I don't believe 3:31:00.480 --> 3:31:01.760 like this is a crime because this is not a 3:31:01.840 --> 3:31:05.440 crime in our state. And the Attorney General of Ohio 3:31:05.560 --> 3:31:08.680 basically wrote a long legal memo stating that this this 3:31:08.879 --> 3:31:11.280 is a crime not known to the laws of civilization 3:31:11.400 --> 3:31:14.920 or man. So basically, yeah, they thought they want to 3:31:15.000 --> 3:31:18.000 read to the Supreme Court. And Chief Justice Taney also 3:31:18.080 --> 3:31:22.560 notable for dread Scott decisions, so like absolutely just terrible 3:31:22.640 --> 3:31:25.000 court like they were. This came I think about like 3:31:25.080 --> 3:31:26.880 three weeks before the Civil Wars. This is like I 3:31:26.920 --> 3:31:28.800 think it's in in like March of eighteen six one, 3:31:29.280 --> 3:31:32.880 so basically like three weeks before Fort Sumter got like 3:31:33.520 --> 3:31:36.760 sacked by by the south Um. But basically what it 3:31:36.879 --> 3:31:40.879 did was is that it said states actually can't utilize 3:31:40.920 --> 3:31:45.840 any discretion in extradition. So like the like the governor 3:31:45.879 --> 3:31:47.960 of Ohio can't say, like, I have concerns about human 3:31:48.040 --> 3:31:49.879 rights and that this isn't a crime in our state. Right, 3:31:49.920 --> 3:31:53.680 there's not this dual criminality analysis, and we're concerned about 3:31:53.720 --> 3:31:55.840 human rights and all these things. So the Supreme court 3:31:55.879 --> 3:32:00.720 basically said no, states don't have that discretion, which you know, 3:32:01.280 --> 3:32:04.240 but they essentially split the baby by by then saying 3:32:04.680 --> 3:32:07.000 federal courts can't issue a rid of and NamUs, which 3:32:07.040 --> 3:32:10.600 is basically an order for a government official to do something. Um. 3:32:10.720 --> 3:32:12.400 They said that federal courts couldn't do that to a 3:32:12.480 --> 3:32:14.960 state governor an extradition. So basically it means that like, 3:32:15.040 --> 3:32:17.400 states don't have discretion, but federal courts can enforce it. 3:32:17.520 --> 3:32:21.160 So therefore it's just a non issue. Right. Fast forward 3:32:21.240 --> 3:32:24.240 a hundred and twenty years and we get to a 3:32:24.320 --> 3:32:28.440 case called Perdorico v. Brand's Dad, which basically, somebody committed 3:32:28.480 --> 3:32:32.640 murder in Perto Rico, fled back to Iowa, and then 3:32:33.360 --> 3:32:35.280 was sought for extradition back to Pertorico. And there's a 3:32:35.360 --> 3:32:38.720 huge element of racism here because you know, they were 3:32:38.720 --> 3:32:40.480 concerned that a white man couldn't get a fair trial 3:32:40.520 --> 3:32:44.400 in Puerto Rico, which is just deeply offensive. Um. And 3:32:44.560 --> 3:32:45.960 so they were. And there was also a question of 3:32:46.000 --> 3:32:48.840 like territoriality, right because Perdorico is a territory. I wasn't 3:32:48.840 --> 3:32:51.520 sure if they had to comply with the extradition clause. 3:32:52.040 --> 3:32:56.600 And so essentially the Supreme Court said, yes, federal courts 3:32:56.720 --> 3:33:02.359 can comply with or can't issue a rid of mandamus 3:33:02.440 --> 3:33:05.600 to to ensure extradition. So essentially what it did was 3:33:05.680 --> 3:33:08.280 it partially overturned the Kentucky be dens In case, but 3:33:08.480 --> 3:33:11.280 upheld the central ruling. The basics, states have no discretion. 3:33:11.920 --> 3:33:15.920 So what does that mean? Basically that states can't really 3:33:16.200 --> 3:33:22.480 stop the extradition of someone in their in their um jurisdiction, 3:33:22.959 --> 3:33:25.840 even if they have extreme concerns. Right, So if you have, like, 3:33:25.959 --> 3:33:28.720 let's say, going back to Michelle's example earlier, someone who 3:33:28.840 --> 3:33:32.360 sends their friends like abortion pills from New York to 3:33:32.600 --> 3:33:35.800 let's say Texas, right, and Texas is seeking extradition in 3:33:35.840 --> 3:33:37.560 New York's like, well, that's not a crime here, so 3:33:37.920 --> 3:33:40.720 we don't want to extradite um. You know, the states 3:33:40.760 --> 3:33:42.879 would typically be hard pressed. But there's kind of two 3:33:43.040 --> 3:33:46.080 kind of or there's one major issue with like the 3:33:46.160 --> 3:33:49.879 extradition part right, actually has to apply to someone who's 3:33:50.240 --> 3:33:52.960 quote unquote an actual fugitive, meaning that they had to 3:33:53.000 --> 3:33:56.879 actually be present in the state when the crime occurred, 3:33:57.600 --> 3:34:01.360 and the commission of the crime can't in itself create 3:34:01.480 --> 3:34:05.840 what's called constructive presence. You have to be corporeally present 3:34:06.000 --> 3:34:08.160 in the state, meaning you have to be physically present. 3:34:08.280 --> 3:34:10.520 You can't just like the commission of the crime doesn't 3:34:10.800 --> 3:34:15.000 constitute that. So in this instance, um, you know, the 3:34:15.040 --> 3:34:18.000 person who says a pill in York technically like constitutionally 3:34:18.120 --> 3:34:20.080 does not have to be extradited, right, Like they can 3:34:20.120 --> 3:34:23.960 contest that. The problem is, as Michelle pointed out, is 3:34:24.040 --> 3:34:28.600 that you know, the extradition causes it exist today is 3:34:28.600 --> 3:34:34.520 pretty much almost entirely just a formality that is waived 3:34:34.600 --> 3:34:38.800 basically almost every single time. And so the courts, the 3:34:39.240 --> 3:34:43.640 like the state attorneys, the district attorneys, even defense attorneys 3:34:43.760 --> 3:34:45.760 might not be familiar with that and might not know 3:34:45.920 --> 3:34:48.600 that that's something that they can potentially contest or it's 3:34:48.640 --> 3:34:51.880 even something that they can um that that is a 3:34:51.920 --> 3:34:54.600 potential constitutional issue, right And so that's one of the 3:34:54.640 --> 3:34:57.360 things that we focused on is our potential solution, um 3:34:57.720 --> 3:35:01.840 is to ensure that people who were not present in 3:35:01.920 --> 3:35:05.840 the state where the actor occurred are able to mount 3:35:06.240 --> 3:35:09.879 a challenge to the extradition. Um. You know, it creates 3:35:09.879 --> 3:35:14.080 all kinds of other problems because there's still federal extradition, 3:35:14.240 --> 3:35:16.560 meaning like if you leave this the country and come 3:35:16.600 --> 3:35:18.920 back in like border patrol could potentially get you. We 3:35:19.000 --> 3:35:22.520 still don't have a clear understanding of how that necessarily 3:35:22.560 --> 3:35:26.440 would work, um, you know, because that's never been a 3:35:26.480 --> 3:35:30.080 question that's like fully resolved. So you know, basically, you know, 3:35:30.080 --> 3:35:31.040 at the end of the day, like we want to 3:35:31.080 --> 3:35:33.680 make sure that like folks are aware of that. But 3:35:33.840 --> 3:35:36.880 like the folks that like leave Texas, right, so, like 3:35:36.959 --> 3:35:39.320 if you commit an abortion, you were charged in Texas 3:35:39.360 --> 3:35:41.360 and you go to New York, Like New York is 3:35:41.400 --> 3:35:43.800 not going to have very many options to protect you 3:35:44.040 --> 3:35:47.880 from being extradited back to Texas. UM. And so you know, 3:35:47.959 --> 3:35:51.160 one of the things that you know, I fundamentally believe 3:35:51.240 --> 3:35:55.080 Kentucky be Dennison was wrong. Was wrongly decided on the 3:35:55.160 --> 3:35:58.640 sense that state shouldn't be able to have a concern 3:35:58.720 --> 3:36:01.320 around human rights because it essentially acts as a one 3:36:01.360 --> 3:36:05.160 way ratchet where the states with the most regressive anti 3:36:05.280 --> 3:36:08.920 human rights criminal justice laws get to have like get 3:36:09.000 --> 3:36:12.520 to dictate that over all of the other states. Similar 3:36:12.560 --> 3:36:17.080 to how um slavery, like the southern states were trying 3:36:17.200 --> 3:36:21.120 to enforce the institutional slavery on northern states that had 3:36:21.280 --> 3:36:23.800 that had abolished slavery decades ago, so it's a very 3:36:23.879 --> 3:36:28.199 complicated issue. And again I reached back to that slavery 3:36:28.400 --> 3:36:31.800 analysis because not because I think that, you know, the 3:36:31.920 --> 3:36:34.880 slavery and abortions should be compared directly, but because this 3:36:34.959 --> 3:36:37.120 is like, this is fun eventually the last time where 3:36:37.160 --> 3:36:40.440 you have criminal laws that are so different between states, 3:36:40.840 --> 3:36:45.280 Like one state's human right is another state's capital crime. 3:36:45.800 --> 3:36:49.720 Like if you can't get further apart than that. Yeah, 3:36:49.800 --> 3:36:54.320 And I wanted to just clarify for folks. If I 3:36:54.640 --> 3:36:58.640 drove the pill to Texas, then I would have committed 3:36:58.680 --> 3:37:01.280 the crime in Texas, and New York could extradite me 3:37:01.959 --> 3:37:04.160 um and I what I also think I'm sort of 3:37:04.280 --> 3:37:06.920 here is the what happens on the ground, right, So 3:37:07.080 --> 3:37:13.800 if you to be clear, while as Alejanda correctly points, 3:37:13.840 --> 3:37:15.440 if I just mailed it to Texas and they have 3:37:15.520 --> 3:37:18.400 the warrant while we're sorting out this extradition warrant, I 3:37:18.520 --> 3:37:21.920 am very likely incarcerated and the sorting out of the 3:37:21.959 --> 3:37:25.840 extradition warrant will probably take ninety days. So just because 3:37:26.080 --> 3:37:28.080 I think folks get confused with this a lot, just 3:37:28.200 --> 3:37:32.920 because something is illegal doesn't mean or your lawyers arguing 3:37:32.959 --> 3:37:36.200 it's illegal doesn't mean it just magically stops um or 3:37:36.320 --> 3:37:40.480 the process ends. And so this is something where we 3:37:40.680 --> 3:37:47.040 think that, um, really there should be a basis to 3:37:47.200 --> 3:37:51.400 contest your extradition on a human rights ground on two grounds, 3:37:51.480 --> 3:37:54.440 Either there is no dual criminality, that is, this is 3:37:54.520 --> 3:37:58.840 not actually a crime, and the other state Interestingly, here, 3:37:59.040 --> 3:38:01.160 handing someone a person scription pill in New York is 3:38:01.160 --> 3:38:03.560 actually a felony, whether or not you get money for it. 3:38:03.920 --> 3:38:06.000 Most folks don't know that he's smiling because she also 3:38:06.040 --> 3:38:09.720 has a public defender in New York City. Um, because 3:38:09.760 --> 3:38:11.600 it blows your mind. You're like, wait, they just handed 3:38:11.600 --> 3:38:13.320 it to them. There's no money exchange. Yeah, that's a 3:38:13.360 --> 3:38:16.400 felony drug sale, So we might have dual criminality. New 3:38:16.440 --> 3:38:20.160 York might actually say, um, you did do a crime, 3:38:20.240 --> 3:38:22.119 so I will extradite you, Which is why we think 3:38:22.120 --> 3:38:25.320 there also needs to be a human rights defense. And 3:38:25.440 --> 3:38:27.880 this may also extend to, well, we're not going to 3:38:28.000 --> 3:38:30.480 extradite them to Texas because they have the death penalty 3:38:30.640 --> 3:38:33.960 and we think that is a clear contravention of human rights. 3:38:34.480 --> 3:38:36.640 Maybe we can extend it to prison conditions. I don't 3:38:36.680 --> 3:38:38.840 know how that far that goes again, these are things 3:38:38.879 --> 3:38:40.760 I don't know they'd be likely to be codified. But 3:38:40.840 --> 3:38:42.800 if we're actually dreaming up the world that we think 3:38:42.800 --> 3:38:45.760 where this could work, like I, as your attorney, should 3:38:45.760 --> 3:38:47.720 be able to come in and say there's no dual criminality, 3:38:48.000 --> 3:38:50.640 this isn't contravention of human rights. And once I mount 3:38:50.680 --> 3:38:55.120 that defense, then the court is bound to release you 3:38:55.560 --> 3:38:58.880 while we sort that out. Um and and that is 3:38:58.920 --> 3:39:02.959 sort of our vision. Another thing that that Alejandro mentioned 3:39:03.080 --> 3:39:06.960 the ver the Vermont law in the eighteen hundreds, and 3:39:07.000 --> 3:39:09.320 one of the things that it said was you could 3:39:09.360 --> 3:39:13.000 get a jury of your peers in a situation like this. 3:39:13.400 --> 3:39:16.440 There's no jury in an extradition case. But the idea, 3:39:16.480 --> 3:39:18.160 of course, is that a jury is going to say 3:39:18.200 --> 3:39:21.240 this is morally wrong. I don't care what the law says, 3:39:21.280 --> 3:39:23.560 We're not sending this person back to enslavement. And the 3:39:23.680 --> 3:39:27.000 idea here is if you put a jury in and 3:39:27.080 --> 3:39:30.120 you assert of human rights defense, perhaps the jury will say, no, 3:39:30.280 --> 3:39:32.200 we're not sending you. So these are these are a 3:39:32.280 --> 3:39:34.960 lot of ideas that we've been coming up with. So 3:39:35.040 --> 3:39:40.440 we're doing the plan. There was jury nullification, yes, it 3:39:40.520 --> 3:39:44.760 absolutely was. It absolutely was jury nullification of love love 3:39:44.840 --> 3:39:49.480 love love love love jury nullification. I anybody with the 3:39:49.560 --> 3:39:51.879 law review that's listening to this, let me write about 3:39:51.920 --> 3:39:54.840 jury nullification for you and feel like, but but we 3:39:54.959 --> 3:39:57.200 we we. I feel like I have been wanting to 3:39:57.320 --> 3:40:00.400 explain jury nalification on this show. Literally sense the like 3:40:01.080 --> 3:40:07.320 I asked the first week coming back for the next one. 3:40:07.760 --> 3:40:10.520 So there's something that I don't want to be lost. 3:40:11.080 --> 3:40:14.520 And that's the idea of like, people don't necessarily know 3:40:14.720 --> 3:40:18.480 what they're being charged with in the state that's asking 3:40:18.600 --> 3:40:21.440 for them to go back, because there's not really a 3:40:21.520 --> 3:40:25.200 requirement that that. So for an extradition, like thinking through 3:40:25.280 --> 3:40:28.720 what you actually need, like the bare bones of an extradition. 3:40:28.840 --> 3:40:31.440 It needs to be like a piece of paper that's 3:40:31.440 --> 3:40:34.520 signed by the governor, but not necessarily the governor of 3:40:34.600 --> 3:40:36.800 the state, but somebody with authority to ask for you 3:40:36.920 --> 3:40:41.680 to return back. And that's in essence it right, just 3:40:41.800 --> 3:40:44.680 like a piece of paper signed by somebody that says 3:40:45.120 --> 3:40:47.760 x y Z birthdate, x y Z did a crime 3:40:47.800 --> 3:40:51.080 in our state. Give them back to us. Right, they 3:40:51.120 --> 3:40:54.320 don't have to say what crime. Not really a requirement 3:40:54.400 --> 3:40:57.600 it usually says it, but it doesn't. It doesn't require 3:40:57.879 --> 3:41:01.000 a probable cause, Affid David, I think is really the 3:41:01.080 --> 3:41:04.600 more important part. It doesn't require you to prove that 3:41:04.800 --> 3:41:07.280 there is enough to charge them with a crime in 3:41:07.400 --> 3:41:10.880 the sending state. Right, So we're saying that's a bare 3:41:10.920 --> 3:41:14.160 minimum change that we can make two laws to make 3:41:14.280 --> 3:41:17.240 the state that's asking for you to use your resources 3:41:17.680 --> 3:41:20.240 to put somebody in a cage and then put them 3:41:20.280 --> 3:41:24.600 in a traveling cage to bring them to our cages. Um. 3:41:24.879 --> 3:41:26.680 And I keep saying the word cage because I don't 3:41:26.680 --> 3:41:29.000 want us to move away from what like prisons and 3:41:29.080 --> 3:41:32.720 jails actually are. It's like bars and cages and boxes. Right, 3:41:33.120 --> 3:41:37.760 So it doesn't really harm the system, doesn't really tear 3:41:37.879 --> 3:41:41.760 yall apart to say, and here's what they're being charged 3:41:41.800 --> 3:41:44.280 within the reason why because that would be the bare 3:41:44.360 --> 3:41:47.400 minimum for someone to be charged for a crime in 3:41:47.440 --> 3:41:49.280 New York. You would need to have probable cause for 3:41:49.320 --> 3:41:51.600 the arrest, and then a judge that's sitting on the 3:41:51.680 --> 3:41:54.440 bench gets to say, Yep, there's enough probable cause for 3:41:54.520 --> 3:41:56.800 this person to be charged next court date, you know. 3:41:57.320 --> 3:41:59.320 And but we don't have that with extradition. We just 3:41:59.440 --> 3:42:03.720 trust that the wheels of bureaucracy are turning the way 3:42:03.840 --> 3:42:06.560 that they need to. Holy crap, that can harm so 3:42:06.680 --> 3:42:09.840 many people. So we're just saying, hey, make them write 3:42:09.879 --> 3:42:13.320 it down. So maybe a judge that's sitting in Illinois 3:42:13.560 --> 3:42:15.960 can look at this warrant from Missouri that says we 3:42:16.080 --> 3:42:18.200 want X y Z back here because of a self 3:42:18.280 --> 3:42:21.680 managed abortion, and then they can see whether or not 3:42:21.800 --> 3:42:25.360 Illinois's new fancy extradition law, which they haven't written up 3:42:25.360 --> 3:42:28.760 and I'm sure they will, applies, right. I think that's 3:42:28.800 --> 3:42:31.400 a bare minimum that we can do. And as much 3:42:31.520 --> 3:42:34.640 as I crave shaking systems and tearing them apart, I 3:42:34.720 --> 3:42:36.760 don't think that's going to be a thing that does it. 3:42:37.240 --> 3:42:40.160 But it might. You know, have y'all ever played Mario Kart, 3:42:41.000 --> 3:42:42.920 You know, when you're driving and you're able to throw 3:42:43.080 --> 3:42:45.640 like the turtle shell or the banana, that might be 3:42:45.800 --> 3:42:49.840 the banana that might slow down the process of somebody 3:42:50.000 --> 3:42:53.160 kind of getting dragged along on this course. Well, and 3:42:53.360 --> 3:42:55.040 I think I think there's like there's another thing that 3:42:55.200 --> 3:42:57.320 that would do too, which is that that vice time 3:42:57.400 --> 3:43:00.240 for a community response, because like you know, if we 3:43:00.320 --> 3:43:02.640 go back to sort of the ice stuff, it was like, well, yeah, Okay, 3:43:02.720 --> 3:43:06.080 like ice raids weren't stopped by the sanctuary laws. The 3:43:06.160 --> 3:43:10.720 thing that like did slow them down was massive community response. Yeah, 3:43:10.959 --> 3:43:13.640 I think I think that's very Uh it's certainly I've 3:43:13.680 --> 3:43:16.240 seen that happen here. Like in San Diego, it wasn't 3:43:16.360 --> 3:43:20.400 any of our performative Democrats laws. It was people getting 3:43:20.400 --> 3:43:22.600 out into the street. Now I was gonna say, there's 3:43:22.640 --> 3:43:24.880 It's also like in the UK in the last couple 3:43:24.920 --> 3:43:27.920 of months, there's been a lot of really really impressive 3:43:28.640 --> 3:43:31.520 community defense things and like cops showing up and like 3:43:31.720 --> 3:43:35.120 just entire communities and neighborhoods showing up the cops just 3:43:35.320 --> 3:43:39.480 like running away. And it's been it's been incredible to watch. 3:43:39.640 --> 3:43:45.400 And you two can also do this. But performative Democrats 3:43:45.520 --> 3:43:49.160 keep giving us good laws, like give us something, give 3:43:49.360 --> 3:43:52.280 anything like a nub of a thing that folks can 3:43:52.520 --> 3:43:55.720 hang their hats on. Um. I just don't want any 3:43:55.920 --> 3:43:59.120 politician out there to think that they're absolved from the 3:43:59.320 --> 3:44:03.880 job of protecting people. Yeah. Well, and I think I 3:44:03.920 --> 3:44:05.320 think again to think with these laws, right, it's like 3:44:05.360 --> 3:44:08.400 you you actually like with this e tradition stuff like 3:44:09.080 --> 3:44:11.400 I don't know how like I don't. I don't know 3:44:11.520 --> 3:44:16.800 how you would even like try to stop it unless 3:44:16.879 --> 3:44:21.280 like because like you don't know, like I mean, I 3:44:21.480 --> 3:44:23.120 like unless unless youre going to commit to try to 3:44:23.120 --> 3:44:25.119 stop trying to stop every person who gets arrested, which 3:44:25.120 --> 3:44:27.360 I think is like a noble goal, but like there's no, 3:44:27.400 --> 3:44:29.360 we don't have a capacity for that. Like if we 3:44:29.440 --> 3:44:31.400 lived in a world where we could do that, like 3:44:32.959 --> 3:44:36.120 the world will be much better and the state would 3:44:36.160 --> 3:44:39.840 be running for its life. But yeah, it's like like 3:44:40.680 --> 3:44:44.680 it seems like a thing that like it gives like 3:44:44.800 --> 3:44:46.840 it gives time for the law to act. More importantly, 3:44:46.879 --> 3:44:48.440 it's like it gives time for us to act. And 3:44:49.080 --> 3:44:51.680 that seems sure. Absolutely one of the most important thing 3:44:51.720 --> 3:44:54.400 is that it's buying time for people to organize and 3:44:54.520 --> 3:44:56.240 be able to be able to push back. It also 3:44:56.280 --> 3:44:59.480 creates a lot of higher barrier right like at the 3:44:59.560 --> 3:45:01.360 end of the day, like these systems are still made 3:45:01.400 --> 3:45:04.120 up people, and people are incredibly lazy and oftentimes like 3:45:04.240 --> 3:45:06.560 the police and other folks like don't want to have 3:45:06.680 --> 3:45:09.240 to deal with like engaging and going with like an 3:45:09.280 --> 3:45:13.000 extradition request because of the actual process for dealing with 3:45:13.080 --> 3:45:16.279 that is actually very onerous. Like, um, they have physically 3:45:16.400 --> 3:45:18.200 go to the state to pick them up, and they 3:45:18.240 --> 3:45:19.840 have to do all these things, right, and so what 3:45:19.920 --> 3:45:22.440 we're doing is like we're suggesting make it even harder, 3:45:22.640 --> 3:45:25.000 like make it absolutely hard for them to go through 3:45:25.040 --> 3:45:26.760 this and actually have to litigate in courts and like 3:45:27.080 --> 3:45:29.520 bring all this stuff, um and just basically like so 3:45:29.680 --> 3:45:32.119 down the process and raise that kind of buried entry 3:45:32.480 --> 3:45:34.000 on it. But you know, I thinks, like I think 3:45:34.040 --> 3:45:37.560 that's you know, very important to say, is like you know, 3:45:38.000 --> 3:45:41.160 the commune defense aspect cannot be able to stated because 3:45:41.440 --> 3:45:42.880 at the end of the day, like laws are just 3:45:43.480 --> 3:45:45.720 words on paper, right, Like it's it's the people that 3:45:45.800 --> 3:45:49.160 give them the effect and the power. So really what 3:45:49.360 --> 3:45:51.760 we need is like people say like this is morally wrong, right, 3:45:51.840 --> 3:45:54.640 Like we're not going to prosecute people for for exercising 3:45:54.680 --> 3:45:58.000 their bodily autonomy engaging in a fundamental human right. And 3:45:58.160 --> 3:45:59.840 so you know, when one of the things I have 3:45:59.879 --> 3:46:03.600 but heartened byas ums like um for John Brown gun 3:46:03.720 --> 3:46:06.800 Club in Dallas, like what they've been doing like protecting 3:46:06.879 --> 3:46:10.360 houseless folks like under the over passes, like they show 3:46:10.480 --> 3:46:13.160 up and like you know, in Texas they can open 3:46:13.280 --> 3:46:15.200 carry and like the police don't want to deal with them, 3:46:15.280 --> 3:46:18.120 so they're like buying a few more days so that 3:46:18.280 --> 3:46:22.000 the Dallas police doesn't um come in and sweep you know, 3:46:22.200 --> 3:46:25.480 the only belongings that these people have. And like that 3:46:25.640 --> 3:46:27.720 in and of itself brought so much attention that like 3:46:27.920 --> 3:46:30.600 brought so much scrutiny to Dallas p D's actions. So 3:46:31.120 --> 3:46:33.640 like it is that kind of community defense. And I 3:46:33.680 --> 3:46:37.360 think it also harks back to how these extradition issues 3:46:37.400 --> 3:46:41.160 like prior to like the Civil War worked out. It 3:46:41.320 --> 3:46:44.880 wasn't necessarily like these formal systems in Vermont that like 3:46:45.360 --> 3:46:48.920 stopped you know, escaped as like persons from being returned 3:46:48.959 --> 3:46:52.200 back to the South. It was like entire mods of 3:46:52.280 --> 3:46:55.080 people coming and like being like, you're not taking this 3:46:55.160 --> 3:46:57.200 person out of our town, and if you try to, 3:46:57.320 --> 3:47:00.760 you're not gonna leave here. Like I as a whole person, 3:47:00.959 --> 3:47:02.920 I guess it's probably the best way to put that, 3:47:03.560 --> 3:47:06.560 um shoot your local bounty hunters. Yeah, And so like 3:47:07.120 --> 3:47:09.440 essentially like that that's how it worked, right, And like 3:47:09.720 --> 3:47:11.080 you know, at the end of the day, I feel like, 3:47:11.240 --> 3:47:12.920 you know, I don't want to du something kind of violence, 3:47:13.000 --> 3:47:14.800 but like like what really what it means is like 3:47:14.840 --> 3:47:17.240 when people show up and they physically put themselves in 3:47:18.320 --> 3:47:20.840 the way, it makes it so much harder for the 3:47:21.040 --> 3:47:24.600 like this kind of wheel of injustice to continue. And 3:47:24.760 --> 3:47:26.760 so that's really what it's going to take. And like 3:47:26.800 --> 3:47:28.880 you were mentioning with like the with the ice raids 3:47:28.920 --> 3:47:31.840 and everything like that, like it took people it's sometimes 3:47:32.080 --> 3:47:34.560 physically putting their bodies in front of ice fans to 3:47:34.720 --> 3:47:38.440 stop them from driving away and like chaining themselves to stuff, 3:47:38.680 --> 3:47:40.880 and like that's the kind of like non violent like 3:47:40.959 --> 3:47:43.160 direct action that I think is like going to be 3:47:43.560 --> 3:47:47.160 like needed. Yeah, And I think folks seem to have 3:47:47.600 --> 3:47:50.560 figured out that their district attorneys are elected and the 3:47:50.680 --> 3:47:53.440 person bringing the fugitive case, which I don't think I've 3:47:53.480 --> 3:47:56.360 been crystal clear about, is the district attorney. So then 3:47:56.959 --> 3:47:59.199 the police officer is going to go to the district 3:47:59.240 --> 3:48:01.800 attorneys of it, and that is the person who's going 3:48:01.879 --> 3:48:04.760 to bring the court case to help facilitate sending the 3:48:04.879 --> 3:48:08.560 person um. And I know New York recently has seen 3:48:08.600 --> 3:48:11.680 a number of successes of folks organizing around individual people 3:48:11.720 --> 3:48:14.920 would be saying you need to drop these charges. This 3:48:15.080 --> 3:48:18.200 conviction got overturned you should not be continuing with the case. 3:48:18.360 --> 3:48:21.640 This person is a for whatever reason, folks are organizing around, right, 3:48:22.040 --> 3:48:29.960 and so if we can create some delays whereby the 3:48:30.040 --> 3:48:32.280 person is free, right, because this is the key thing. 3:48:32.400 --> 3:48:36.400 We don't want people incarcerated. Incarceration in of itself is 3:48:36.879 --> 3:48:40.920 extreme violence. Right, So if the person is not incarcerated, 3:48:40.959 --> 3:48:43.800 then we can sort of delay this process and organize 3:48:43.840 --> 3:48:48.680 around pressuring whoever needs to be pressured, particularly the two 3:48:49.000 --> 3:48:53.360 Democratic politicians who say there against all of this stuff. 3:48:53.400 --> 3:48:54.560 But then at the end of the day, are they 3:48:54.600 --> 3:48:57.440 going to ignore the homicide extradition warrant? Like that's where 3:48:57.480 --> 3:48:58.760 the rubber meets the road. Are you going to do 3:48:58.800 --> 3:49:01.879 it or not? Right? And and and I think that's 3:49:01.879 --> 3:49:04.680 a much harder question when it comes down to that 3:49:04.960 --> 3:49:07.800 for them, because they're like, well, it's a homicide warrant, right, 3:49:07.960 --> 3:49:11.240 and and so that's where they need the pressure because um, 3:49:11.440 --> 3:49:15.360 all the wild ideas go out the door in that moment. Yeah, 3:49:15.400 --> 3:49:17.040 I think, like, I think that's the thing with with 3:49:17.120 --> 3:49:19.960 these people. It's like ideologically like they don't care enough 3:49:20.000 --> 3:49:21.640 to deal with do it. But if you but you 3:49:21.760 --> 3:49:25.720 can force them to care about having a job, Yeah, well, 3:49:25.800 --> 3:49:28.240 it's not not even just so much that, like there 3:49:28.280 --> 3:49:31.640 there are long established ways of putting pressure on people 3:49:31.720 --> 3:49:34.000 and systems that can force them to do things they 3:49:34.000 --> 3:49:37.720 don't want to do, and yeah, go do that because 3:49:38.680 --> 3:49:40.960 we're going to need it. Frankly, I think part of 3:49:41.040 --> 3:49:45.360 this is also destigmatizing work right, um, Because when we 3:49:45.920 --> 3:49:51.320 have kind of these big divergent ideas, when we find 3:49:51.360 --> 3:49:54.680 ourselves at the split of like good versus evil, right, 3:49:54.760 --> 3:50:00.360 like slavery versus not slavery, bodily autonomy versus not bodily autonomy, um, 3:50:01.680 --> 3:50:05.360 sometimes the good guys compromise to the point that we 3:50:05.480 --> 3:50:08.040 get ourselves to this position later on down the line, 3:50:08.480 --> 3:50:12.760 and what we can do is kind of galvanized community 3:50:12.800 --> 3:50:16.360 response and also civic engagement by forcing folks to take 3:50:16.400 --> 3:50:18.080 a look at the laws that we so rely on 3:50:18.600 --> 3:50:21.200 and questioning why does this thing exist this way? Why 3:50:21.360 --> 3:50:24.320 is this process moving that way? Someone that didn't know that. 3:50:24.440 --> 3:50:28.360 Folks facing an extradition warrant like often have to make 3:50:28.480 --> 3:50:31.040 the decision at an arrayment. Am I going to waive 3:50:31.200 --> 3:50:34.000 my right to extradition and wait for them to couldn't 3:50:34.040 --> 3:50:36.800 get me because they said that takes thirty days for 3:50:36.880 --> 3:50:38.880 them to come and get you. But if you don't wait, 3:50:38.920 --> 3:50:40.680 if it's going to take ninety days to them to 3:50:40.760 --> 3:50:44.000 come and get you, so you'll be sitting there longer, 3:50:44.440 --> 3:50:46.400 and that's a decision that you need to make. Kind 3:50:46.440 --> 3:50:51.000 of like in that moment, if we're talking about extradition 3:50:51.280 --> 3:50:54.800 in normal conversation, we're moving forward to a place where 3:50:54.840 --> 3:50:58.920 we're destigmatizing and frankly demystifying what the criminal legal system 3:50:59.000 --> 3:51:01.320 really looks like. In an and bolts. It might end 3:51:01.440 --> 3:51:04.840 up with better conversations and better output for folks in 3:51:04.880 --> 3:51:06.720 the future. It might end up with you being able 3:51:06.760 --> 3:51:10.440 to talk about jury nullification and having like and not 3:51:10.640 --> 3:51:13.440 having it be kind of like a shaking the table conversation, 3:51:13.800 --> 3:51:17.000 because frankly, these are all like civics. Civics, it's rights, 3:51:17.120 --> 3:51:20.920 it's things that are written in the constitution that governs us, 3:51:21.320 --> 3:51:23.000 where the cops don't need to know the law, but 3:51:23.080 --> 3:51:27.120 we're all expected to write. So it takes all kinds, 3:51:27.200 --> 3:51:30.200 it takes all responses for us to just get to 3:51:30.320 --> 3:51:33.520 the place that's better than the stop gap that Row 3:51:33.680 --> 3:51:36.040 had been giving us for the last forties some odd years. 3:51:36.200 --> 3:51:38.000 And I'll say, like the one thing that does terrify 3:51:38.080 --> 3:51:39.960 me in this end is like or I guess like 3:51:40.080 --> 3:51:42.520 really concerns me is like what Bonda Santist just did 3:51:42.600 --> 3:51:44.600 in Florida in Hillsboro County. Like I grew up in 3:51:44.680 --> 3:51:47.200 Hillsboro County, so I'm from there. So it's like like 3:51:47.520 --> 3:51:52.800 the twice elected UH state attorney there was just suspended 3:51:52.960 --> 3:51:57.800 because he said he would refuse to um prosecute crimes 3:51:57.840 --> 3:52:01.000 related to abortion and gender for carry, like also refused 3:52:01.000 --> 3:52:03.280 to prosecute trans people using the bathroom right, So like 3:52:03.760 --> 3:52:07.760 these kinds of things and the santis just like sacked him. Right, 3:52:07.800 --> 3:52:11.360 an elected person that reflects the values of that county, 3:52:11.880 --> 3:52:13.760 and so like that that's the other thing to be 3:52:13.840 --> 3:52:15.920 aware of. It's you know, like even when you do 3:52:16.080 --> 3:52:18.600 exercise that power and like say like this is our 3:52:19.040 --> 3:52:21.320 as a community, these are our values on like who 3:52:21.400 --> 3:52:24.880 we should be prioritizing um in the criminal justice system. 3:52:26.120 --> 3:52:28.600 There are still people out there that will will try 3:52:28.680 --> 3:52:31.840 to circumvent that in a very authoritarian and autocratic way, 3:52:31.920 --> 3:52:34.240 and so um, you know, I think it's not just 3:52:34.320 --> 3:52:36.680 who you're voting for your local das, who are you 3:52:36.720 --> 3:52:38.720 running for? A governor? Who are you running for? Like, 3:52:38.920 --> 3:52:41.600 you know, these people that have broader powers over this. 3:52:43.120 --> 3:52:45.960 I wanted to briefly talk about this because I know 3:52:46.160 --> 3:52:49.280 like it was proposed at least by my representative the 3:52:50.160 --> 3:52:52.280 and I think it's being bandied about as a solution, 3:52:52.880 --> 3:52:55.640 and uh, it doesn't seem like it is. But this 3:52:55.880 --> 3:53:00.760 My Body, My Data Act, which I was trying to 3:53:00.840 --> 3:53:03.280 read through it a little earlier. It seems like it 3:53:03.320 --> 3:53:07.240 allows people to like sue tech companies for selling their 3:53:07.360 --> 3:53:09.960 data that leads to their prosecution. I don't know if 3:53:09.960 --> 3:53:12.680 you are familiar with it, but maybe we could just 3:53:12.760 --> 3:53:16.560 discuss a little bit what No, okay, all right, I 3:53:16.600 --> 3:53:19.280 mean so I'm not familiar, but based on what you 3:53:19.400 --> 3:53:22.400 just said, right, I think there's this and I really 3:53:22.440 --> 3:53:24.320 think it goes back to what EVCO is saying about 3:53:24.360 --> 3:53:29.360 folks just like not not fully understanding precisely how the 3:53:29.440 --> 3:53:35.840 criminal legal system just like runs over people. Okay, great, 3:53:35.960 --> 3:53:38.240 so I can sue the tech company after the police 3:53:38.280 --> 3:53:40.920 have put me in a cage and and convicted me 3:53:41.080 --> 3:53:44.880 based on the day like like, okay, I mean great, 3:53:44.920 --> 3:53:46.800 maybe I'll have a lot of money on my commissary, 3:53:46.960 --> 3:53:51.520 my family will have enough um like funds to come 3:53:51.600 --> 3:53:53.920 drive and visit me at whatever state prison they've got 3:53:54.040 --> 3:53:57.440 me locked up in, right, Like, like, this is where 3:53:58.040 --> 3:54:00.280 we have to step back and think, are is this 3:54:01.440 --> 3:54:05.880 is this thing actually preventing the harm? Because I think 3:54:05.920 --> 3:54:08.000 a lot of times folks are just like, we can 3:54:08.040 --> 3:54:09.880 do them, or we could get back at them. And 3:54:10.560 --> 3:54:13.080 I also want folks to remember that just making something 3:54:13.160 --> 3:54:18.000 illegal does not prevent harm. Right, and and a whole 3:54:18.040 --> 3:54:20.960 another conversation about criminalization as a solution to anything, which 3:54:21.000 --> 3:54:24.520 I think it is not, um, but but just on 3:54:24.720 --> 3:54:26.760 on the face of what you've said to me, that 3:54:26.880 --> 3:54:29.560 doesn't sound like a solution that if I it wouldn't 3:54:29.600 --> 3:54:32.240 feel adequate to me if if I were in that 3:54:33.880 --> 3:54:37.760 And also thinking about how cases become cases from what 3:54:37.920 --> 3:54:41.000 we know, it's not again, it's not coming from big 3:54:41.080 --> 3:54:44.720 data down right for the most part. It certainly can happen, 3:54:45.280 --> 3:54:50.760 but really what's happening is violations of people's Fourth Amendment rights. 3:54:51.200 --> 3:54:53.960 Cops being able to access things on people's actual devices, 3:54:54.320 --> 3:54:59.200 oftentimes without warrants, oftentimes by not fully explaining that people 3:54:59.280 --> 3:55:02.360 have the right to they know. Um And I'm sure 3:55:02.440 --> 3:55:05.440 Michelle has had clients that were like, oh, they just 3:55:05.600 --> 3:55:08.000 took my phone. How many times have we heard that? Right? 3:55:08.240 --> 3:55:10.440 They just took my phone and started going through it. 3:55:10.840 --> 3:55:12.800 A police officer that does that is not going to 3:55:12.880 --> 3:55:14.760 write in their report. And I just took his phone 3:55:14.800 --> 3:55:18.560 without any permission. It's always permission was granted. It was 3:55:18.720 --> 3:55:21.840 in plane view. I saw it from the street. I 3:55:21.920 --> 3:55:25.040 smelled it as he was walking by. Like, if the 3:55:25.200 --> 3:55:30.120 laws that are being created are not actually responsive to 3:55:30.200 --> 3:55:32.880 the harm that folks are experiencing in a way that 3:55:33.040 --> 3:55:35.560 actually prevents it, then we need to kind of push 3:55:35.600 --> 3:55:39.280 back at our legislators and say, Okay, this is great, 3:55:40.320 --> 3:55:42.400 but is it responding to the thing that you're saying 3:55:42.440 --> 3:55:44.920 it's responding to? Because yeah, shout out to people being 3:55:45.000 --> 3:55:47.040 able to sue big tech for selling our data without 3:55:47.080 --> 3:55:51.360 our permission. Bet, But is that gonna prevent prosecutors from 3:55:51.560 --> 3:55:57.520 going after folks that have abortions? Probably not, Because even 3:55:57.600 --> 3:56:00.200 in the Nebraska case that Alejandra mentioned at the top 3:56:00.240 --> 3:56:03.200 of the hour, that was a warrant that was signed 3:56:03.240 --> 3:56:05.480 by judge, it was a search warrant that was provided 3:56:05.560 --> 3:56:08.400 to Facebook that didn't say the words abortion on it, 3:56:08.520 --> 3:56:10.760 that didn't say that we're going after someone for abortion. 3:56:11.240 --> 3:56:13.400 Had I think the words like abuse of a corpse 3:56:13.520 --> 3:56:16.240 or something of that nature on there, and for them 3:56:16.320 --> 3:56:20.160 it was wrote what they normally do, bureaucracy, search warrants, 3:56:20.200 --> 3:56:23.320 stamp here's the data that you're looking for. A law 3:56:23.400 --> 3:56:25.560 that prevents folks from selling your data doesn't prevent that 3:56:25.760 --> 3:56:29.160 from happening. Something I think a lot about those. One 3:56:29.160 --> 3:56:32.400 of my sort of like former political experiences was back 3:56:32.480 --> 3:56:34.280 in like I think, I think it's something which isn't 3:56:34.280 --> 3:56:38.560 twelve doesn't thirteen um. Right after the revolution in Bahrain. 3:56:39.080 --> 3:56:41.920 So okay, so the revolution in Bahrain, Saudi tanks roll in, 3:56:42.040 --> 3:56:44.360 they crush it, they kill a bunch of people, and 3:56:44.720 --> 3:56:46.640 the government starts doing this crackdown. The way the government 3:56:46.680 --> 3:56:49.640 does to crackdown is they go they go to Facebook 3:56:49.640 --> 3:56:52.240 and they takes off those on people's public accounts, and 3:56:52.240 --> 3:56:53.560 then they go to Facebook and they asked them for 3:56:53.600 --> 3:56:57.160 information and Facebook turns go over, and you know, the 3:56:57.200 --> 3:56:59.360 government just goes to and finds everyone who's at a 3:56:59.400 --> 3:57:02.800 protest and starts to ressing them. And you know, Facebook 3:57:02.880 --> 3:57:06.560 is just like m HM and like that, if if 3:57:06.600 --> 3:57:09.840 if if if if if they if they will comply 3:57:10.160 --> 3:57:13.400 with a literal monarchy who has had a second monarchy 3:57:13.640 --> 3:57:15.920 send an army across the border in order to crush 3:57:15.920 --> 3:57:18.480 a bunch of protests. Like they're going to comply with 3:57:18.560 --> 3:57:20.160 the US and they're gonna keep doing this stuff to you. 3:57:21.040 --> 3:57:26.240 And so yeah, I was like, I like, even if 3:57:26.280 --> 3:57:28.400 you can sue them, they're still going to cooperate with 3:57:28.480 --> 3:57:31.320 the U. S. Government because yeah, they have a greater 3:57:31.440 --> 3:57:34.640 financial interest in doing big tech doesn't give a funk 3:57:34.680 --> 3:57:37.800 about you. Yeah, I think folks, again, as he was saying, 3:57:37.840 --> 3:57:41.040 like ea saying, it was just so like this is wrope. 3:57:41.240 --> 3:57:42.920 This is what they do every day. This is not 3:57:43.560 --> 3:57:45.680 that serious or that deep to them. And I think 3:57:45.760 --> 3:57:50.040 we need to start asking bigger questions about why do 3:57:50.120 --> 3:57:52.760 we have a system we're so easy for the government 3:57:52.840 --> 3:57:56.880 to just like come in and um, have a subpoena signed, 3:57:57.000 --> 3:57:59.320 Like the subpoenas are easy to get, like we have 3:57:59.560 --> 3:58:02.480 these mechanisms are all in place. And that's what I 3:58:02.560 --> 3:58:06.520 was sort of saying earlier is that I think folks 3:58:06.560 --> 3:58:08.720 who haven't been paying attention to this, who are all 3:58:08.720 --> 3:58:11.160 of a sudden like, wow, how is this happening? Oh 3:58:11.240 --> 3:58:14.080 my goodness, Well, these are the machines of massim corceration 3:58:14.160 --> 3:58:17.360 that we have spent a few decades really building up, 3:58:17.720 --> 3:58:20.720 and so now when the person the people you're sympathetic 3:58:20.840 --> 3:58:24.720 with start to get criminalized all of a sudden, we're 3:58:24.880 --> 3:58:28.800 very shocked. And listen, however, you got here, great welcome. 3:58:28.880 --> 3:58:32.000 I'm glad folks are here and saying like, wow, this 3:58:32.200 --> 3:58:34.840 is a problem. And I want folks to think the 3:58:35.280 --> 3:58:39.240 If the abortion context and the self managed abortion is 3:58:39.360 --> 3:58:43.560 your entry point, I hope it is not the end point. 3:58:43.640 --> 3:58:47.880 I hope that you are thinking bigger about how did 3:58:47.960 --> 3:58:50.560 all these systems get here? Who do they serve? And 3:58:50.920 --> 3:58:54.720 and and I hope how do we dismantle them? Because 3:58:54.720 --> 3:58:58.280 it's it's not just this select few people group of 3:58:58.360 --> 3:58:59.960 people that we should care about, I think is all 3:59:00.000 --> 3:59:01.760 all the people who are who are exposed to this 3:59:01.920 --> 3:59:07.560 on the daily. Um. So yeah, that's my soapbox. I 3:59:07.600 --> 3:59:11.640 always wonder how many judges, um have refused to sign 3:59:11.720 --> 3:59:14.480 a search warrant. That's like a big wonder of mine. 3:59:14.680 --> 3:59:18.720 I don't judges don't hang out with me, obviously for 3:59:19.040 --> 3:59:21.840 a lot of obvious reasons. But if I were to 3:59:22.400 --> 3:59:24.920 like just whisper in my ear real quick, how many 3:59:24.960 --> 3:59:27.800 times have you ever said no to a police officer 3:59:27.920 --> 3:59:30.160 that comes to ask to swear a warrant in front 3:59:30.160 --> 3:59:32.240 of you. How many times have you found there is 3:59:32.280 --> 3:59:37.360 no probable cause? Dude? Like to to be fair, there 3:59:37.480 --> 3:59:39.560 there there are. There have to there have to be 3:59:39.600 --> 3:59:41.240 a certain number of times where they're trying to go 3:59:41.280 --> 3:59:49.160 after another. Judge es I don't know, it's good to 3:59:49.240 --> 3:59:53.080 have happened once like that. There has to have been 3:59:53.160 --> 3:59:56.120 one time where it was like this judge piste me off, 3:59:56.160 --> 3:59:58.320 I'm going to go raid his car or something. Never 3:59:58.760 --> 4:00:02.560 Never that I can like that, I can think about 4:00:02.680 --> 4:00:05.040 never happening. But I just wonder how many times has 4:00:05.120 --> 4:00:07.720 somebody said we are going to go search for drugs 4:00:07.760 --> 4:00:10.520 and X y Z house in this specific neighborhood that 4:00:11.120 --> 4:00:14.040 that a judges says, you don't have enough here. Try again. 4:00:14.760 --> 4:00:19.280 It doesn't happen. Yeah, at least told in federal court 4:00:19.360 --> 4:00:22.120 maybe maybe you know they turned down one out of 4:00:22.840 --> 4:00:28.080 but in state court. My experience is it's it's it's again, 4:00:28.120 --> 4:00:30.240 it's routine. It's just how things go. I mean, one 4:00:30.280 --> 4:00:31.800 of the one of the things that I came across 4:00:31.880 --> 4:00:33.480 when I was you know, I was not dealing with 4:00:33.560 --> 4:00:36.560 particularly judges issuing warrants. But one of the things I 4:00:37.120 --> 4:00:39.000 did when when I was looking into the payment app 4:00:39.080 --> 4:00:42.800 issue this past spring, um is, you know, I talked 4:00:42.880 --> 4:00:45.000 to a former prosecutor and was like, you know, what 4:00:45.160 --> 4:00:48.800 is it like to get documents from or or data 4:00:48.960 --> 4:00:52.560 from like Facebook and you know, Instagram or Meta whatnot, 4:00:52.760 --> 4:00:55.520 or like Twitter or any of these other places. And 4:00:55.600 --> 4:00:58.840 they were just like, Oh, we just send a request, 4:00:58.960 --> 4:01:01.720 like we don't even like basically an administrative subpoena, and 4:01:01.760 --> 4:01:05.200 they just like hand over everything like, um, it's basically 4:01:05.240 --> 4:01:08.320 they're just like so routine oftentimes, especially if it's coming 4:01:08.440 --> 4:01:12.480 from a district attorney's office or law enforcement. But like 4:01:12.600 --> 4:01:16.640 often times these companies just like casually handover stuff all 4:01:16.680 --> 4:01:20.240 the time, especially when it's like dealing with low level 4:01:20.360 --> 4:01:23.920 drug stuff um or any kind of like issues like that. 4:01:24.600 --> 4:01:26.720 You know, they like to say, oh, we're we're big 4:01:26.840 --> 4:01:29.720 on on civil rights and stuff like that and making 4:01:29.720 --> 4:01:33.120 sure your data is protective. In reality, like there's so 4:01:33.240 --> 4:01:35.600 many requests around this stuff, and it's just you know, 4:01:35.960 --> 4:01:37.880 the only time they ever maybe make a standards when 4:01:37.920 --> 4:01:40.800 a case is higher profile and it may damage their brands, right, 4:01:40.880 --> 4:01:42.720 and that's that's the only time they actually ever care. 4:01:43.840 --> 4:01:46.000 On the defense attorney side, it's hard as heck to 4:01:46.040 --> 4:01:49.640 get your client's records for things like so hard, so 4:01:49.960 --> 4:01:52.760 so hard. You're looking for information on a Facebook for 4:01:52.840 --> 4:01:55.400 somebody that's incarcerated that might get them out of jail, 4:01:55.760 --> 4:01:58.080 and they don't remember their password, you don't know how 4:01:58.120 --> 4:02:00.360 to get into their stuff, and it need to be 4:02:00.560 --> 4:02:03.280 not a screenshot because that you might not be able 4:02:03.320 --> 4:02:05.840 to get that authenticated and admissible in court. And it 4:02:06.000 --> 4:02:08.920 is so hard when you're working on the other side 4:02:09.040 --> 4:02:12.080 and not in law enforcement to get data and information. 4:02:12.520 --> 4:02:14.200 But on the flip side when it comes to like 4:02:14.640 --> 4:02:18.600 people's medical information, which comes into play in a lot 4:02:18.640 --> 4:02:21.640 of these cases because we're at this intersection of bodily 4:02:21.680 --> 4:02:25.880 autonomy and health in the criminal legal system. We've certainly 4:02:26.000 --> 4:02:28.920 seen in cases where folks are having a medical emergency 4:02:29.320 --> 4:02:31.320 and cops are able to just go and do a 4:02:31.400 --> 4:02:33.960 bedside interview with somebody that's coming out of surgery still 4:02:34.040 --> 4:02:36.360 drugged up. Right, They're able to just go up to 4:02:36.440 --> 4:02:38.240 a charge nurse something like, so, how's he doing, and 4:02:38.280 --> 4:02:45.200 they're getting information that's wild because I have had request 4:02:45.720 --> 4:02:50.120 for my clients medical records with signed HIPPA authorizations returned 4:02:50.240 --> 4:02:52.440 because I signed with blue ink instead of black ink. 4:02:52.800 --> 4:02:56.440 It's not wrote. It's not wrote when it's not coming 4:02:56.520 --> 4:02:59.200 from law enforcements sometimes, and that's kind of the wild thing. 4:02:59.280 --> 4:03:03.680 There's this assumption that folks and law enforcement have a 4:03:03.880 --> 4:03:07.600 right to all information at all times forever, and that's 4:03:07.640 --> 4:03:09.840 where things get rubber stamped, and that's the stuff that 4:03:10.000 --> 4:03:12.520 we're not really looking at that have large impact on 4:03:13.240 --> 4:03:17.560 how people access their rights. I was just as we 4:03:17.640 --> 4:03:20.000 were talking about like Facebook doing everything about you and 4:03:20.840 --> 4:03:24.840 loving the cops, I was like reminded of Fouko's Panopticon 4:03:25.640 --> 4:03:27.800 and like this idea that you'll start to internal life 4:03:27.840 --> 4:03:31.400 discipline because you never know when you're being watched, right, um, 4:03:31.840 --> 4:03:35.800 And so I wondered, like obviously, like when talks about it, 4:03:35.840 --> 4:03:37.920 the idea is that you will do you act like 4:03:38.040 --> 4:03:40.520 you think the state is watching, because the state could 4:03:40.560 --> 4:03:42.960 always be watching. Therefore you have to act like it 4:03:43.120 --> 4:03:46.760 is watching. Uh, And like it's if we're not there yet, 4:03:47.040 --> 4:03:49.520 right like that, Tally there, have you not heard the 4:03:49.840 --> 4:03:53.640 FBI and your phone joke? The FBI on my computer? 4:03:54.000 --> 4:03:56.440 Like I hope he likes my makeup today we're totally there, 4:03:56.520 --> 4:03:59.040 Like I think there's an assumption that we're all being watched. 4:04:00.080 --> 4:04:04.240 Don't know. Even sometimes I wish our clients I thought 4:04:04.240 --> 4:04:06.440 they were being watched more because sometimes people put too 4:04:06.520 --> 4:04:10.520 much on Facebook do Well, yeah, you're right, let me 4:04:10.600 --> 4:04:14.640 not keep myself from that because I am very much included. Yeah, 4:04:15.160 --> 4:04:17.920 but yeah, so like that's what I wanted to ask, right, 4:04:17.960 --> 4:04:22.480 Like how do we not you know, we don't want 4:04:22.600 --> 4:04:26.480 people to listen to some do crimes, but like how 4:04:26.600 --> 4:04:30.600 should people act in their interactions like in in a 4:04:30.720 --> 4:04:35.440 way that is like I guess I don't know that 4:04:35.520 --> 4:04:38.200 it makes them less vulnerable to like these very obvious 4:04:38.360 --> 4:04:42.480 upsets fails. I guess, Um, I have some resources, so 4:04:43.720 --> 4:04:46.120 if one how we have this thing called the repro 4:04:46.280 --> 4:04:49.800 Legal Helpline. It's repro legal helpline dot org. It's also 4:04:49.840 --> 4:04:51.840 a warm line with the phone number that people can 4:04:51.920 --> 4:04:54.960 call and ask questions like what are my rights when 4:04:55.000 --> 4:04:57.920 it comes to my abortion my self managed abortion? And 4:04:58.040 --> 4:05:00.800 on that website we have did atal tips about how 4:05:00.800 --> 4:05:04.040 do you protect yourself and sanitize your digital space just 4:05:04.200 --> 4:05:07.480 for safety as a whole, not to hide information from everyone, 4:05:07.600 --> 4:05:11.160 but how do you move and prevent and minimize your risks. 4:05:11.280 --> 4:05:14.000 What does harm reduction look like to you? We also 4:05:14.080 --> 4:05:17.400 have the repro Legal Defense Fund, and that exists for 4:05:17.480 --> 4:05:20.160 folks when they are actually being criminalized to pay for 4:05:20.280 --> 4:05:23.520 things like bail, help out with attorneys fees, help out 4:05:23.560 --> 4:05:26.440 with expert fees. So there are folks that are working 4:05:26.880 --> 4:05:30.080 on this stuff that exists as resources, and there are 4:05:30.280 --> 4:05:33.920 resources out there. But I would tell folks to really 4:05:34.000 --> 4:05:36.560 think about who are you telling your business to? UM? 4:05:36.720 --> 4:05:39.800 When you share information, is that information that's necessary for 4:05:39.920 --> 4:05:43.680 treatment that you're being asked? UM? Just because we're used 4:05:43.720 --> 4:05:46.240 to being in spaces where there is a power and 4:05:46.360 --> 4:05:49.640 balance about sharing all of the information that's asked of us, 4:05:49.960 --> 4:05:52.280 and I think when it comes to spaces and times 4:05:52.320 --> 4:05:56.720 where we're more vulnerable UM to state actors causing harm 4:05:56.800 --> 4:05:59.960 to us, being mindful about what questions are you being asked? 4:06:00.000 --> 4:06:02.400 And it's that question necessary for you to be able 4:06:02.440 --> 4:06:05.480 to receive care or services X Y Z UM. And 4:06:05.560 --> 4:06:09.000 it sucks to have to put work on the back 4:06:09.080 --> 4:06:11.520 of folks that are already being oppressed by systems. It's 4:06:11.560 --> 4:06:15.080 absolute trash. And I fully recognize that's it's it's messed up, 4:06:15.480 --> 4:06:18.920 But UM, when we're thinking when we're thinking about what 4:06:19.000 --> 4:06:21.440 does harm reduction look like. I think that's one of 4:06:21.520 --> 4:06:23.680 those things that we have to keep in mind. UM. 4:06:23.800 --> 4:06:27.800 And harm reduction also looks like folks knowing generally what 4:06:27.920 --> 4:06:31.320 the law is and being able to advocate for themselves 4:06:31.400 --> 4:06:34.360 in those spaces. Yeah. I'll just add from my side 4:06:34.440 --> 4:06:36.360 from like kind of just you know, from from a 4:06:36.400 --> 4:06:40.200 cyber perspective, it's, you know, just in general ways, like 4:06:40.240 --> 4:06:42.480 there's nothing that's gonna be bullet proof or a silver 4:06:42.560 --> 4:06:45.200 bullet in terms of always protecting your privacy, but like 4:06:45.600 --> 4:06:48.520 the quicker ways that you can kind of at least 4:06:48.720 --> 4:06:52.640 make yourself generally safers. Use applex signal for for chatting. UM. 4:06:52.720 --> 4:06:56.120 Also use like auto delete features. UM, you know, don't 4:06:56.200 --> 4:06:59.520 don't keep like years worth of text messages and stuff 4:06:59.560 --> 4:07:05.640 like that. UM. Additionally, UM, you know, don't use biometrics 4:07:06.600 --> 4:07:08.800 because you don't have a Fifth Amendment right for yourself 4:07:08.920 --> 4:07:13.680 subcrimination for for biometrics. Right SOS so long long reason 4:07:13.720 --> 4:07:16.720 why that is in the courts, use a password, don't 4:07:16.800 --> 4:07:19.120 use a short pin. Use a password. I know it's annoying. 4:07:19.280 --> 4:07:21.800 I know it's like, you know, if a finger prayer 4:07:21.800 --> 4:07:24.640 in our face, like unlock is like much more convenient. 4:07:24.800 --> 4:07:26.840 But you know, if you are at high risk or 4:07:26.880 --> 4:07:29.280 you worry about this stuff and you're concerned about your privacy, 4:07:29.360 --> 4:07:31.280 like use those things because they can't compel you to 4:07:32.000 --> 4:07:35.480 do that generally. UM. You know. The other things is 4:07:35.640 --> 4:07:40.320 UM the UK app e u k I UM, which 4:07:40.400 --> 4:07:43.680 is a UM sexual health app that has a lot 4:07:43.720 --> 4:07:49.560 of information about UM, you know, reproductive issues UM. It 4:07:49.640 --> 4:07:52.480 also is like a menstrual tracker, but it's all encrypted 4:07:52.920 --> 4:07:56.560 client side, they get no data UM and it has 4:07:56.800 --> 4:07:59.440 it prompts you for a password and pin to open 4:07:59.520 --> 4:08:03.240 it UM. And it also has uh resources for self 4:08:03.320 --> 4:08:07.760 managed abortion UM and and how to safely handle those UM. 4:08:09.000 --> 4:08:12.600 And yeah, you know, just generally, you know, anything you 4:08:12.640 --> 4:08:14.840 put out there on social media also like be careful 4:08:14.920 --> 4:08:17.040 like what you you put out there, like stay to 4:08:17.240 --> 4:08:21.040 end and end to end encryption, use VPNs if you can. 4:08:21.400 --> 4:08:22.880 You know that these are just kind of like general 4:08:22.960 --> 4:08:25.240 stuff like nothing is again ever gonna be full proof, 4:08:25.320 --> 4:08:27.960 but yeah, there are some small stuff you can take 4:08:28.000 --> 4:08:32.800 at least increase some of your protections. And on my end, 4:08:33.360 --> 4:08:36.240 you know, you have a right to remain silent. You 4:08:36.280 --> 4:08:39.560 should use it, uh and thanks to the Supreme Court, 4:08:39.640 --> 4:08:41.360 you have to say I want to be silent in 4:08:41.480 --> 4:08:43.560 order to invoke your right to be silent. You cannot 4:08:43.600 --> 4:08:47.800 just be silent. Um. So you I would advise people 4:08:47.880 --> 4:08:49.920 to say, I want to be silent and I want 4:08:49.960 --> 4:08:53.280 a lawyer. Those are the magic words. I also want 4:08:53.320 --> 4:09:00.360 to hold that being captured by police officer is a 4:09:00.440 --> 4:09:04.600 violent experience and a scary experience, and sometimes asserting your 4:09:04.720 --> 4:09:08.240 rights can provoke more violence, and so people do what 4:09:08.360 --> 4:09:11.160 they need to do to stay safe in that moment um. 4:09:11.680 --> 4:09:14.840 From all the law of perspective, saying I would I 4:09:14.920 --> 4:09:18.600 want to be silent and I want a lawyer, um 4:09:20.200 --> 4:09:24.680 are the things that invoke all of your constitutional protections. Um. 4:09:25.520 --> 4:09:29.200 And the police may lie about whether or not you 4:09:29.280 --> 4:09:32.880 said that later, so you know, say it as many 4:09:32.920 --> 4:09:34.360 times as you need to. But those are really the 4:09:34.440 --> 4:09:36.840 only things you should say, which is a lot um 4:09:37.280 --> 4:09:40.240 easier said than done. But that that is the thing 4:09:40.280 --> 4:09:43.800 that folks should do if they do find themselves in 4:09:43.960 --> 4:09:46.360 the custody of law enforcement. And also if you're on 4:09:46.440 --> 4:09:49.040 the street, ask if you're free to go, and if 4:09:49.080 --> 4:09:51.400 you're free to go, please walk, do not run away. 4:09:51.800 --> 4:09:59.120 There's also a case about that God hate the cops. Well, 4:09:59.440 --> 4:10:01.480 thank you a so much for joining us. Um this 4:10:01.640 --> 4:10:04.080 this has been really great, and yeah, don't talk to 4:10:04.200 --> 4:10:08.680 cops yep. Would you like to plug anything before we 4:10:10.080 --> 4:10:12.840 leave with don't coote the cops? Yeah, I can just 4:10:13.120 --> 4:10:15.560 throw my personal side. You can follow me on ALLSO 4:10:15.600 --> 4:10:20.160 shows on Twitter and stuff at Square underscores like Portmanteau 4:10:20.200 --> 4:10:23.480 of Esquire and Queer s E s q U E 4:10:24.000 --> 4:10:27.600 R Underscore UM and also have a podcast called Queering 4:10:27.640 --> 4:10:30.400 the Law um or talk about a lot of these 4:10:30.440 --> 4:10:32.280 issues as well. UM, so if you want to give 4:10:32.320 --> 4:10:38.520 that a listen. UM, don't follow me on social media 4:10:39.240 --> 4:10:42.840 because all my stuff is closed, but I would recommend 4:10:42.880 --> 4:10:46.040 that folks follow at IF when how on all socials 4:10:46.040 --> 4:10:50.040 because we're always uh providing up to date information on 4:10:50.160 --> 4:10:53.000 what's actually going on with carminalization of self managed abortion 4:10:53.320 --> 4:10:57.160 and resources from you know, community partners that are on 4:10:57.280 --> 4:10:59.920 the ground, local that are doing the work. So if 4:11:00.040 --> 4:11:02.480 lks are looking to get connected, I would say reach 4:11:02.520 --> 4:11:04.160 out to IF one how and we can usually point 4:11:04.200 --> 4:11:09.000 you in the right direction. You could follow me on Twitter, 4:11:09.120 --> 4:11:11.240 but I don't really remember what my handle is, so 4:11:12.280 --> 4:11:15.480 what I would suggest that you do. Uh, pre trials, 4:11:15.520 --> 4:11:17.840 attention and bail litigation is really my heart. You got 4:11:17.920 --> 4:11:20.000 folks locked up and they haven't even been found guilty. 4:11:20.560 --> 4:11:22.480 Not that anyone should be locked up. So donate to 4:11:22.480 --> 4:11:24.840 your local bail fund if you don't know who that is. 4:11:26.000 --> 4:11:30.120 There's a lot of organs, National Bailout, the Bail Project, 4:11:30.240 --> 4:11:31.680 there's a lot of places you can find that. But 4:11:32.280 --> 4:11:36.040 growing five, ten, fifteen dollars at your local bail fund, 4:11:36.120 --> 4:11:38.800 we'll get someone free because you can purchase your freedom 4:11:38.840 --> 4:11:47.960 here in America. So um do that. M Yeah, thank 4:11:48.000 --> 4:11:51.120 you so much that this has been They can happen here. Uh, 4:11:51.400 --> 4:11:54.600 you can find us in places don't talk to cops, 4:11:54.880 --> 4:11:57.520 and yeah, if there weren't any cops, you couldn't make 4:11:57.520 --> 4:12:03.000 things legal. H Hey, we'll be back Monday with more 4:12:03.080 --> 4:12:05.720 episodes every week from now until the heat death of 4:12:05.760 --> 4:12:08.320 the Universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of 4:12:08.360 --> 4:12:11.280 cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 4:12:11.400 --> 4:12:13.880 visit our website cool zone Media dot com, or check 4:12:13.920 --> 4:12:16.200 us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 4:12:16.320 --> 4:12:19.120 or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 4:12:19.160 --> 4:12:21.720 for It Could Happen Here. Updated monthly at cool Zone 4:12:21.760 --> 4:12:24.480 Media dot com slash sources, Thanks for listening.