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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compiletion episode, So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Welcome back to it could

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Speaker 1: Happen here, the podcast about things happening that are bad

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Speaker 1: and occasionally good, but all have to do with the

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Speaker 1: fact that we're living in a society whose norms are

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Speaker 1: crumbling as the environment also crumbles, and political violence and

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Speaker 1: a bunch of other horrible things become more normalized, trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out how to not die ideally um and

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Speaker 1: occasionally how to thrive. And to that end, I have

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Speaker 1: a guest today who has been kind of working with

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Speaker 1: the working lately on how not to die in the

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Speaker 1: face of things getting increasingly violent and aggressive out there.

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Speaker 1: I want to welcome Jessica Keckler to the program. Jessica,

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Speaker 1: how are you doing today? Doing great? So, Jessica, um,

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Speaker 1: you know we are as listeners to the show and

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Speaker 1: observers of just basic reality in the outside are aware

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Speaker 1: we're kind of going under a or living through a

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Speaker 1: period of like panic and concerted aggressive attack on the

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Speaker 1: rights and ability to exist of transgender people. That's um

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Speaker 1: hasn't like has never not been a problem as long

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Speaker 1: as there's been you know, Western civilization, but has increasingly

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Speaker 1: been a problem the last year or so. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's really Um, it's really wild because, um, when you

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Speaker 1: take estrogen, you're When I start taking estrogen, it took

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Speaker 1: like ten years off of my face as far as

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Speaker 1: age goes, But then in this past year, I think

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Speaker 1: it's put back by now. Um. Yeah, I mean that

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Speaker 1: makes sense. Like it's it's it's stressful as hell out there. Um,

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Speaker 1: there has been a surge in violence, UM, not just

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Speaker 1: against trands people, obviously we've talked about in other episodes. UM,

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Speaker 1: there's been a surgeon violence against Asian Americans, UM, against

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Speaker 1: LGBT Americans, but transgender people are much more likely than

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Speaker 1: almost any other group in the United States to be attacked. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And that has been increasingly reality for a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: And you are one of a number of folks in

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Speaker 1: that position, who have been increasingly talking or who have

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Speaker 1: find yourself thinking about the necessity and value of being

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Speaker 1: armed in order to defend yourself from that. I want

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Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about your background there and

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Speaker 1: kind of what, um, how how you kind of came

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Speaker 1: to deciding that that was something that you wanted to

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Speaker 1: not just do personally, but advocate for other people to do. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I went through well llient libertarian spaces. It was it

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Speaker 1: was many years, but you know, and I collected a

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Speaker 1: bunch of guns, and you know, I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's you know, cool. But then, um, after I sort

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Speaker 1: of worked through my childhood traump and stuff, I you know,

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Speaker 1: I sort of feel a lot less threatened about about things,

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Speaker 1: and I just sort of, you know, it, just sort

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Speaker 1: of lost interest in them for a while. But then, um,

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Speaker 1: a friend of mine, Kendall Stevens, was telling me about

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Speaker 1: a time when she was attacked in her home by

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Speaker 1: a group of transpos and just beaten almost to death.

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Speaker 1: And that next morning, I, um, I I have reapplied

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Speaker 1: for my Harry permit. Yeah, and this is I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is a story I was not aware of. I

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Speaker 1: was aware. Broadly speaking, there have been a number of attacks,

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Speaker 1: including number of fatal attacks in the last couple of

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Speaker 1: years on particularly trans women. There was the murder of

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Speaker 1: West Philadelphia woman Alicias Simmons um in November of um,

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Speaker 1: Chanta Tucker in Hunting Park in the fall of two

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Speaker 1: thousand eighteen, uh, and may have two thousand nineteen, Michelle

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Speaker 1: Tamika Washington was shot to death in North Philly and

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Speaker 1: this is all like local to you. Um. And also

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Speaker 1: Dominique Remay Fells was was murdered in June, if I think, um,

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Speaker 1: And yeah, if people want to look this up, there's

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Speaker 1: a couple of different articles. I'm looking at one on

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Speaker 1: Billy Pin with the title after surviving a brutal attack,

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Speaker 1: Kendall Stevens wants to help trans people citywide And yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a fucking harrowing story, you know, after

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Speaker 1: surviving a number of different attacks from from like people

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Speaker 1: just kind of targeting her because she's trans. She was

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Speaker 1: attacked in her home by six of her neighbors while

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Speaker 1: her god daughter, who was twelve years old. Watch it's

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Speaker 1: a fucking horrifying story. So you, like, did you find

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Speaker 1: out about what had happened, like directly from her like,

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Speaker 1: how does this kind of information? I was. I was at, um,

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Speaker 1: there's a local trans group where we just you know,

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Speaker 1: get on zoom and talk. And yeah, it was one

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Speaker 1: of my first meetings, and actually I think it was

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Speaker 1: the very first, and she just told this whole story,

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Speaker 1: and I was just you know, it's like I always

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Speaker 1: had the feeling of safety, but then it's just like realized, like,

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Speaker 1: oh that's you know, like being white, I'm a little safer.

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Speaker 1: But it's just like it's we're all you know, it's

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Speaker 1: really yeah, it's it's a it's a matter of like

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Speaker 1: a small number of degrees. It's not. Um. So you're

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Speaker 1: you're you're trying to deal with this and you're you're communicating.

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Speaker 1: You've got this group where you're all sort of like

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Speaker 1: chatting about I'm guessing just kind of like safety stuff,

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Speaker 1: like hey here, you know, we we should all be

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Speaker 1: kind of keeping each other informed and trying to talk

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Speaker 1: about what's going on. Right, Yeah, I mean we mostly

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Speaker 1: just shoot the ship and just you know, talk things

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Speaker 1: over and stuff like that. But she was, um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: something had come up, and she recounted this whole story,

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Speaker 1: and it was just it just really made me go like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god. Yeah, so you kind of are in

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Speaker 1: this position where you own firearms, You're you're comfortable with them,

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Speaker 1: you've been using them for a while, and number one,

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Speaker 1: you get your permit, right, Like that's kind of the

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Speaker 1: first thing you do. And then I'm guessing you start

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Speaker 1: to think like, well, there's not a lot of other

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Speaker 1: people that are in this kind of group I'm in

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Speaker 1: that have this experience that kind of like where the

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Speaker 1: yeah right? Because um, you know, because when I would

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Speaker 1: talk to people before that, they would just to sort

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Speaker 1: of say like, yeah, I can see where you're coming

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Speaker 1: with that. And but once the attack started, I'm I

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Speaker 1: heard a lot I've heard a lot more people going like, yes,

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Speaker 1: I need to do that too, you know. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: I kind of want to know because I mean, what

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Speaker 1: we're kind of building too is you've been you've been

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Speaker 1: putting together a class for trans folks in Philly to

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Speaker 1: go to to learn about how firearms function, the legality

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Speaker 1: and legal concerns about being armed, and like the steps

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Speaker 1: they might need to go to if they decide to

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Speaker 1: do that themselves. Um, how does that idea kind of

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Speaker 1: come together for you to actually like put this this

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Speaker 1: class together? Okay, well, um, I remember of the s

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Speaker 1: R right, the Socialist Rifle Association, and they have classes

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Speaker 1: they call Gundamentals and it's just sort of an uproad

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Speaker 1: a review, um to sort of sort of every if

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Speaker 1: you've never picked up a gun before, it's it will

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Speaker 1: tell you, um, you know, it'll give you just information

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Speaker 1: on you know, everything you need to to before you

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Speaker 1: use it. And um, I thought it would be a

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Speaker 1: good idea to just have a trans just a class

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Speaker 1: with just my trans friends, and they were of course

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Speaker 1: open to it, and it went really well, and I

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Speaker 1: planted more in the future. Yeah, um, so you kind

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Speaker 1: of you're going through both sort of the basics of

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Speaker 1: here's and this is kind of a thing I think

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Speaker 1: about a lot. I recently carried out a class for

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Speaker 1: I don't want to be too specific, but at risk

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Speaker 1: individuals in my local area. That was a mix of

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Speaker 1: and I was not the one doing to stop the

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Speaker 1: bleed portion, primarily we have people who are medical professionals.

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Speaker 1: But it was a mix of a stop the bleed

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Speaker 1: class and like a firearms familiarization class. And it was

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Speaker 1: not from the perspective of like, hey, people need to

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Speaker 1: be strapping up so here's how to get a gun.

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Speaker 1: But it was from the perspective of, hey, there's four

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Speaker 1: million firearms in the United States, whether regardless of what

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Speaker 1: you think about the legality, you should have a basic

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Speaker 1: understanding of how they function and how to since you're

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Speaker 1: all adults, render a weapon safe, right, So we did.

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Speaker 1: We have these fake bullet snap caps, so I would

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Speaker 1: explain how an a are and a handgun works, and

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Speaker 1: then we would have everyone take turns, kind of like

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Speaker 1: we had with the stop the bleed portion, you know,

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Speaker 1: where you teach people to use a tourniquet. Would everyone

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Speaker 1: take turns arriving to the weapon, putting the weapon in

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Speaker 1: their hands without like flagging everybody or putting their finger

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Speaker 1: on the trigger and then dropping the magazine and clearing it.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of folks the thing they expressed was

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Speaker 1: like as people who didn't necessarily want to be armed

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Speaker 1: themselves felt like I was. I had never got I

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Speaker 1: never knew how to, like asked to have this experience

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Speaker 1: because normally, when you're in the room with a firearm,

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Speaker 1: it's because like maybe you're gonna go shooting with somebody

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Speaker 1: or something. So if you're not seeking out that experience

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Speaker 1: to actually go to a range. It's kind of hard

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Speaker 1: to sit with a gun and just understand the base

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Speaker 1: because of how this thing functions and how to render

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Speaker 1: it safe. And so there were a lot of folks

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Speaker 1: who particularly were like it seemed to be grateful for

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Speaker 1: just that experience to kind of like reduce the mystery

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Speaker 1: around it and gain kind of a functional understanding of

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Speaker 1: just the mechanics. Yeah, it was. Yeah, the class was

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Speaker 1: really good. I haven't taken it before, but it's, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, it shows like you went through like the

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Speaker 1: the anatomy of football, at the anatomy of a gun,

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Speaker 1: how it works, how to how to do it safely,

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Speaker 1: how to you know, like the four rules of gun safety, um,

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Speaker 1: legal things, and it was just it was really good course. Now,

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Speaker 1: so you take this course, you know, you're you're in

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Speaker 1: communication with these friends, you're dealing with like this constant

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Speaker 1: drumbeat of attacks. Um, you decide it's time to put

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Speaker 1: together a course for people. How do you kind of

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Speaker 1: work out what the syllabus is going to be for this? Um, well,

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Speaker 1: if they're all they have the whole class set up already.

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Speaker 1: I just sort of yeah, I had just had a

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Speaker 1: version just for my transfriends. Yeah, so what what in

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Speaker 1: like what did you kind of add to that or

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Speaker 1: alter to that in order to like prepare it for this.

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Speaker 1: Not much. I just it was just I just thought

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Speaker 1: they would be more comfortable in a class with just us. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that makes sense. And it also do you

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Speaker 1: think it helped that, Like this isn't because you know

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Speaker 1: the Socialist Rifle Association. You're attending that class. You're kind

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Speaker 1: of like attending a class put on by an organization

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Speaker 1: that has being both armed and political kind of in

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Speaker 1: its name, which maybe infers a little bit more commitment

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Speaker 1: to something than the class kind of you put together

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Speaker 1: on like a political level. Yeah, it's it's not as

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Speaker 1: hardcore as as you might think from the name. It's

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Speaker 1: just it's mostly they have the gundamental class. They have

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Speaker 1: to stoppable courses kind of you know this kind of thing,

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Speaker 1: and I think they there's very discussions too. I haven't

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Speaker 1: gone telling them. Yeah, and and so you've you put

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Speaker 1: this thing together. And the thing that you mentioned earlier

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Speaker 1: when we were talking about this is kind of a

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Speaker 1: discussion on like um like the the particularly legal concerns

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Speaker 1: that trans people seeking to arm themselves might have in

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Speaker 1: your area, and I wanted to talk to you a

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Speaker 1: little bit about that because obviously, when we talk about

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Speaker 1: gun legalities, it varies wildly from state to state. UM,

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Speaker 1: So nothings that either of us say. And this should

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Speaker 1: be construed as legal advice for what you should do

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Speaker 1: in your own area. You're gonna have to check that

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Speaker 1: out yourself. But yeah, I'm interested in what you saw

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Speaker 1: is kind of worth putting in that. UM well, the

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Speaker 1: I mean, the big addition to bring up is that

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Speaker 1: if you're not UM, if you if you don't present

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Speaker 1: as your assigned gender at birth, they could the person

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Speaker 1: who's running the check could say that, hey, this person

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Speaker 1: is coming to me in a disguise you know, UM,

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Speaker 1: and you could UM in future if you're trying to

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Speaker 1: get a gun in the future, that could be on

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Speaker 1: your record and people could use that it's now you

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Speaker 1: really I now, I had never heard about that, So

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Speaker 1: that's like an actual I mean obviously, like when you

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Speaker 1: file the form four four seven three. One of the

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Speaker 1: problems I know from just talking to friends that you

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Speaker 1: encounter is that like if you're if your your gender

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Speaker 1: does not match, like it's on your legal documents and stuff,

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Speaker 1: you have to write what's on your legal documents on

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Speaker 1: the form because it's a government form. Um. Although the

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Speaker 1: four four seven three, which is the background check form,

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Speaker 1: does now allow you to put in non binary if

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Speaker 1: that is, like, but you still have to have it

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Speaker 1: on your legal documents. Um, And we're we're mostly used

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Speaker 1: to that for everything else. But it's just the fact

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Speaker 1: that they could specifically target you. Yeah, I was actually

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Speaker 1: unaware of that as a specific problem, like that you

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Speaker 1: could be accused of like showing up in disguise to

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Speaker 1: do what's called a straw purchase, you know, which is

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Speaker 1: when you illegally buy a gun for somebody else. I

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Speaker 1: didn't realize that was a Yeah, So we're there kind

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Speaker 1: of other things to like keep in mind there, Like

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Speaker 1: because I'm particularly I'm sure we have a lot of

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Speaker 1: folks listening who are in this same headspace right now. Um,

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Speaker 1: because again, things aren't getting a lot less scary out there. Um.

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Speaker 1: I mean I can say just within the last couple

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Speaker 1: of years, probably around half of the people that I

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Speaker 1: shoot with on a regular basis are trans just because

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Speaker 1: like it's the of the you're the folks who are

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Speaker 1: being kind of most directly targeted and have the least

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Speaker 1: institutional support obviously, yea. And we have like people in

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Speaker 1: Congress openly calling for our executions, and it's just, yes,

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Speaker 1: that's a feeling, you know. It's like, yeah, that's something

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Speaker 1: I've ever experienced before. But it's like, yeah, you have

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Speaker 1: like nationally famous politicians just saying like, yes, we need

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Speaker 1: to kill every one of them, and it's like, good lord. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And that's the thing, Like, you know, I think we

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Speaker 1: talk a lot on the show when we do talk

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Speaker 1: about being armed, and I've just talked a lot of

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Speaker 1: my personal life about like sort of where what the

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Speaker 1: left should be doing in terms of like a gun

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Speaker 1: culture and like the kind of pitfalls that need to

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Speaker 1: be avoided, because obviously the solution to like the discrepancy

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Speaker 1: of arms in the left and the right in this

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Speaker 1: country is not to recreate what the right wing has,

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Speaker 1: because what the right wing has is like vicious and insane. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's it's bad. We don't we you don't

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Speaker 1: want that, um but uh and and and so obviously,

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Speaker 1: like one of the things that I tend to think

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Speaker 1: of as as silly is like the the folks who

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Speaker 1: are and I don't think this is a particularly large jump,

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Speaker 1: but you do get people who are kind of look

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Speaker 1: at being armed from like and then we're you know, um,

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Speaker 1: this is so that we can you know, be the

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Speaker 1: new red army insurgent type thing, which I think is

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Speaker 1: a less realistic use case of firearms on the left

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Speaker 1: than the police are not going to protect our community. Um,

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Speaker 1: there are a shipload of people with guns who hate us,

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Speaker 1: and you know, honestly, like one of the when I

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Speaker 1: think about, like, what are the threats that are realistic

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Speaker 1: and what are the threats when we talk obviously this

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Speaker 1: show that we're on the way, they're the way the

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Speaker 1: way they're doing the you know, you have um like

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Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson saying like, oh another week in buy mar

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Speaker 1: and you know, making all these things and they they're

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Speaker 1: sort of like all these trans people. It's like someone

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Speaker 1: should do something wink wink, Yeah exactly. And that's the

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Speaker 1: when we're on a show right now that started out

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Speaker 1: as me talking about, Hey, I think people who are

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Speaker 1: I think the threat of massive civil conflict in the

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Speaker 1: United States is higher than people guess, and that broadly speaking,

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Speaker 1: is mainstream. Now there is a strong mainstream understand like

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Speaker 1: standing that some sort of civil conflict is possible. It's

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Speaker 1: still when people talk about it primarily in the terms

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Speaker 1: of like this big civil war type thing, which I

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Speaker 1: think is broadly speaking, probably pretty silly. What's not silly

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Speaker 1: is the breakdown of expectations of social morays and things

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Speaker 1: like you can't show up in a big armed group

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Speaker 1: and start killing people that you have on a list,

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Speaker 1: who are are folks that you have decided because their

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Speaker 1: trans because whatever are are your enemy. And like one

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Speaker 1: of the things that I'm kind of concerned we're going

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Speaker 1: to see at some point in the future is a

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Speaker 1: fucking mob gets spun up and go and take out

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Speaker 1: some people on their list. And I'm not sure what

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Speaker 1: that list is going to be, but you know, there's

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Speaker 1: a couple of people who pay attention, there's a couple

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Speaker 1: of broad possibilities as to who would be targeted. And

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Speaker 1: then local law enforcements say, we're not going to choose

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Speaker 1: to do anything about this. We're not going to and

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Speaker 1: again this hat I'm not coming up with this because

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Speaker 1: this is like a bleak. I know you are well

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Speaker 1: aware of this, but like, we had an abortion clinic

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Speaker 1: burnt down earlier this year, and I think it was

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Speaker 1: Kentucky and the police refused to investigate it, right, like

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Speaker 1: this kind of ship already happens, you know. Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was. For a while I was like, okay, well

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Speaker 1: they're not really going to and then it's like then

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Speaker 1: they started coming after our kids, and just like I

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Speaker 1: almost didn't survive my adolescent so I know just how

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Speaker 1: much pain those kids are in. And yeah, and then

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Speaker 1: it's like okay, then they got rid of rovers way

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Speaker 1: and it's like, okay, they're not They're not just posturing anymore. No,

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Speaker 1: they're santastic. Final it's like, you know, hey, someone should

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Speaker 1: do something was bad enough. But then it's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: they're really they're on a tear hair. So you're you're

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Speaker 1: put together. This asked for folks who I'm going to

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Speaker 1: guess most of them had not Number one, didn't have

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Speaker 1: much experience with weapons firearms prior to this, and probably

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Speaker 1: also had not prior to you know, the last year

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Speaker 1: or two I thought that they would ever be someone

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Speaker 1: considering purchasing armaments. I mean, some of them said that

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Speaker 1: you know, they grew up you know, in rural places

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Speaker 1: and grew up with guns and stuff, but touched them

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Speaker 1: since they were kids, So, right, you were there any

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Speaker 1: kind of like specific questions that you got that you

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Speaker 1: you found were interesting or kind of like surprising. Like

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of interested in sort of what sort of

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Speaker 1: things people had to ask, not in particular, I think

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Speaker 1: everyone was just sort of just trying to learn everything

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Speaker 1: and just like that, Yeah, where there is there kind

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Speaker 1: of a has there been sort of like, um, any

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Speaker 1: further discussions about like well what comes next? Right like

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Speaker 1: after the sort of basic class of people decided to

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Speaker 1: start purchasing like firearms, step two is like train in

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Speaker 1: order to use them like functionally, right, Like it's not

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Speaker 1: a kind of thing you can just have. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: next up, the next step from the group of friends

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Speaker 1: that I have, Um, I'm planning to you know, go

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Speaker 1: to a range with them, and I mean we have

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Speaker 1: to sort of find what ranges are most friendly. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: so we're probably gonna do that and just see how

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Speaker 1: it goes with everyone. I mean I know that where

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Speaker 1: I am. One thing that people will do is you know,

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Speaker 1: you'll you'll have folks who will kind of go out

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Speaker 1: and be uh kind of a little guinea pigs for like,

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Speaker 1: is this gun's store a friendly place like right, like

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Speaker 1: is this a place we can go and buy weapons

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Speaker 1: and not and and have people like respond, well, is

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Speaker 1: this range a friendly place? And then kind of will

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Speaker 1: spread that to the rest of the community that like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is a safe place to shoot too, this is

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Speaker 1: a safe place to buy Do you have you guys

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Speaker 1: been kind of like setting stuff up like that or

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Speaker 1: what No, not yet, but that's that is the next step,

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Speaker 1: trying to figure it out. Yeah, and when it when

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Speaker 1: it comes to like just organizing for the increasing hostility

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Speaker 1: that that people are facing. Um. Has it has it

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Speaker 1: kind of pushed you to do anything more formal with

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Speaker 1: like the communications groups you have in terms of like

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Speaker 1: you know, I need I might need I'm going on

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Speaker 1: a walk at night, I need somebody to be able

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Speaker 1: to like call or something like that, I'm worried I'm

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Speaker 1: being followed, Like is there Has this been the kind

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Speaker 1: of thing that you've been like setting up more in

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Speaker 1: the way of precautions around so much because most of

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Speaker 1: us just live in the city and we're we're usually

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Speaker 1: pretty okay with that, um or we'll have you know,

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Speaker 1: friends nearby, you know, well nothing so um formal? Yeah? UM,

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Speaker 1: I mean, which is yeah, I think how most people

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Speaker 1: kind of do it. Um, what do you sort of

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Speaker 1: like watching out right now? Um? What is kind of

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Speaker 1: I don't know the thing you're you like, like, do

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Speaker 1: you have anything sort of on the horizon that you're

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Speaker 1: sort of looking at as you know, if this happens,

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Speaker 1: then I'm going to expect this to happen, and like

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Speaker 1: maybe we need to do this time for some kind

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Speaker 1: of more formal plans. It's hard to say. I'm I've

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Speaker 1: just been sort of just watching all of this horrible

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Speaker 1: stuff unfold. Everything happens so fast. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: like I said, I didn't think they're going to get

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Speaker 1: rid of Row, So it was just I just I

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Speaker 1: don't know what's coming next. Um, I'm just realizing it's

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Speaker 1: like it's so serious. It's actually getting to the point

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Speaker 1: where I'm just sort of seeing myself just trying to

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Speaker 1: make amends with people in my past, and it's like

402
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Speaker 1: you just you just take a step back and look

403
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Speaker 1: at yourself, like, oh wow, it really is getting bad

404
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Speaker 1: that it's just subconsciously I'm just thinking I should make

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Speaker 1: peace with some of these people. That's pretty bleak. Um.

406
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Speaker 1: I I'm struggling for like something more positive to say, um,

407
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Speaker 1: which I'm not sure is that is kind of the

408
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Speaker 1: right impulse, but it is sort of like we're all

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Speaker 1: kind of like grappling for because one of the problems

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Speaker 1: is that the scale of the threat, I think is

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Speaker 1: or the reality of the threat is very clear to people, right,

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Speaker 1: whether you're kind of a centrist dim and you just

413
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Speaker 1: see like, oh, ship, there's actually like a lot of

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Speaker 1: like militia type folks with guns talking about a civil

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Speaker 1: war and they almost took over Congress. This is a

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Speaker 1: real threat. Or whether you're you know, a transperson or um,

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Speaker 1: you know, an indigenous person or a migrant or something

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Speaker 1: somebody who's you know, here in the country in a

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Speaker 1: less than legal fashion and you're stay seeing like, oh,

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Speaker 1: they're specific threats against groups people like me, and they're

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Speaker 1: being more organized and more att actually being carried out. Um,

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Speaker 1: the reality of the threat is I think clear in

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Speaker 1: differing degrees to everybody. What's not clear is the the

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Speaker 1: scope in the shape of it. Right, So we know

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of like armed right wing assholes talking

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Speaker 1: about violent ship. We don't know is are they going

427
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Speaker 1: to get their shipped together right, like enough to do

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Speaker 1: something like unto what extent and in what areas right

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00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,439
Speaker 1: that is? I think that you know, it's like the

430
00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 1: enemy is strong and weak at the same time, of course,

431
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,440
Speaker 1: but I think with us, really they really don't expect

432
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 1: any resistance. And I think that if you know, if

433
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,440
Speaker 1: they start meeting resistance or're seeing us with that like, hey,

434
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,239
Speaker 1: we have shame rightful to you, do you know? Yeah, well,

435
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 1: and I think that might you know, hold them off

436
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 1: a little bit at least. I think that's generally like

437
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 1: a if you're kind of like, I don't know, uh,

438
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,959
Speaker 1: thinking about it from that from the perspective of like

439
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:32,120
Speaker 1: and kind of a soulless, like, uh, top down view

440
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,159
Speaker 1: of this is just a strategic thing, like what are

441
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 1: the what are the best ways to oppose this kind

442
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 1: of like right wing and surgean force. Well, like obviously

443
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,440
Speaker 1: one of them is not to like hand them ground, right,

444
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 1: like don't don't don't don't do the thing that you

445
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 1: see a lot of people in the left doing, which is, oh,

446
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,679
Speaker 1: they're coming for you know, trans people. Well that's not

447
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 1: you know, you there's been a lot of like very

448
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 1: ugly talk on certains of liberals and left of like well,

449
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 1: you know, if we defend these people, that's going to

450
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: be bad for us in an electoral sense, you know,

451
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 1: and like, this isn't something that gets you votes in

452
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 1: small exact exactly. Hillary Clinton just fucking came out and

453
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: said this, right, and it's Um. I I feel like

454
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,199
Speaker 1: I think historically as a bad strategy. You know, if

455
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 1: you're just looking at what happened in history, obviously I

456
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,640
Speaker 1: think it's immoral. Um. And I also, yeah, I think

457
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: that you are right in that the only reason that

458
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 1: they're this scary right now is because for the better

459
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: part of twenty years a little less than that, but

460
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,439
Speaker 1: this really started to accelerate after Obama got elected. Every

461
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,719
Speaker 1: time the far right has like pushed for something and

462
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 1: like made a stink or started making threats, people have

463
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,920
Speaker 1: backed off right and even outside of you know, threats

464
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 1: specific communities, they were ship like the Mayac report, which

465
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: is in like the mid of Obama's term, the Homeland

466
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: Security put out a report warning about the growth of

467
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 1: the domestic militia movement, and they like made a big

468
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: they flipped out about it, and we're like, look, they're

469
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 1: saying that if you have a Gadsden flag, you're a

470
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: domestic terrorist and all this stuff, and the bomb backed

471
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: off and fired. All of the people in in the

472
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: federal government who are like watching this ship. Um, which

473
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 1: we can talk about the degree to which it's ever

474
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 1: reasonable to hope that the Feds are going to do

475
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: anything about this, but it's it's an example of this.

476
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: You get scared that opposing these people is going to

477
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: be bad for you politically, and so you make a

478
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: craven political decision to seed ground to them, and then

479
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 1: they get more dangerous. Right the Democrats have just been

480
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 1: doing lately, I mean least several decades. Really, it's such

481
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: like a mine field to talk about being armed and

482
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 1: being armed responsibly in the context of twenty one century

483
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: United States, because there's so much to juggle, including the

484
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:53,719
Speaker 1: fact that we have basically nearly weekly uh, massacres and

485
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 1: stuff being committed by people who go and pick up

486
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: a gun from you know, a sporting goods store whatever. Um.

487
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: But fascists, yeah, and they're almost all fascists with the

488
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: history of violence towards women. Um. But it it is

489
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 1: like I think, when we are talking about what it is,

490
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: the actual importance on both an individual level of being

491
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: the importance on an individual level of people who are

492
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: in threatened communities being armed is that they cannot trust

493
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: the police or the state to take any actions to

494
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: protect them. And we see that because they get thrown

495
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: under the fucking bus every time somebody comes from after

496
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,239
Speaker 1: her attack, that the place just sort of dismissed her.

497
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: They just sort of like, oh, you know, it was

498
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 1: just you know, they like stender to her, just like

499
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: just complete you know, dis interest, and yeah, and obviously

500
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:48,719
Speaker 1: like this is this is the thing you don't have

501
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: to There's a bunch of numerous other stories of that. Um.

502
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 1: And then on the other end of things, you have

503
00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 1: like most of these people. One of the things as

504
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 1: we have in our corners like scary as the insurgent, right,

505
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,360
Speaker 1: is as most of them are fucking cowards, and when

506
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: they get opposed, when somebody shows up and throws down

507
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 1: usually they fucking It's one thing if it's like a

508
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: street fight, right, because people don't tend to get killed

509
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: in street fights, and you can make a lot of

510
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: money filming videos of it. When fucking when when people

511
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 1: start pulling straps, you know, like it gets really different,

512
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: really fucking quickly. Um. And in general, we've seen in Portland.

513
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: There have been a couple of these folks shot in

514
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: defensive shootings, and it's part of why that's kind of

515
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: stuff doesn't happen as much as it was in two

516
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 1: thousand eighteen. Um, you saw that ship happen in Denver

517
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: and it had an effect on the intensity of of

518
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 1: rallies there. When these people are it would be irresponsible

519
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: to say that it's like good when this happens, but

520
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: when they suffer consequences for trying to hurt people, it

521
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: scares some of them. Classically, Yeah, if you stand up

522
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: to them, they'll really yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I

523
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: this is just kind of turned into us sort of

524
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: talking about the ethics of community self defense. But I

525
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: think it's something I think it's important to talk about.

526
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: And I think it's also important to kind of reclaim

527
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 1: from this kind of masturbatory fantasy of becoming a minuteman

528
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 1: or whatever, and also this masturbatory fantasy of like this

529
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: is something this is a thing I do as like

530
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: part of my identity, um, as opposed to like this

531
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: is a thing that I do in order to defend

532
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: my ability to continue to be who I am. Right,

533
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not a radical. I just want to

534
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: be alive, you know, and if I'm not, if I

535
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 1: have to de transition, I will not want to be alive.

536
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: And that's that. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, Well did you

537
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: have anything else you wanted to get into where we're

538
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 1: talking to digestica? All right, Well, do you have anything

539
00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:59,479
Speaker 1: you wanted to plug any place you wanted to kind

540
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: of direct? Um? Well, there's yea all right, um, because

541
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: that's uh. If someone wanted to at home, wanted to

542
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: uh to do their own thing, the s R would

543
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: probably be great receptive. I'm sure there's other organizations. Um yeah,

544
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: there's John Brown, gun clubs and stuff, and other organizations

545
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: that don't have names. And on a personal level, I well,

546
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 1: I I make bondage collars and paddles. It's called bondage Robot.

547
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 1: It's any store. It's a Bondage hyphen robot dot com.

548
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 1: Excellent do do? Yeah? Um so bondage robot dot com.

549
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: Um check that out. You're also on Twitter? Do you

550
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: want to direct people? It's that's where I Yeah, Jessic

551
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: Lashnikov just figured out you'll say it, all right, that

552
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: is gonna be our episode for the day. Everybody uh,

553
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: stay safe and um, you know, think about the ethics

554
00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: of community self defense. It's important. Oh boy, it could

555
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: happen here, and it seems to be happening more after

556
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: the last couple of days. This is a podcast about

557
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: how everything's looking pretty bad these days. Um, and in

558
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: particular right now we're we're here. We've got the whole team,

559
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: not the whole team. We've got the team here to

560
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 1: do a round table discussion about the thing, you know,

561
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: the thing, the thing that happened this last week that

562
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: is still the main thing happening, which is the FBI

563
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: rated former President Trump's house. Um, and now all of

564
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: his fans are declaring war on the FBI, which has

565
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: so far been let's all be honest here, pretty funny. Um.

566
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: But everybody's also a lot there's a lot of worry

567
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: going on. There's a lot the some folks of documented

568
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: if we'll talk about this, that like discussion online of

569
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: civil war and civil conflict has like exploded to new

570
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: heights over the last like four days or so. UM.

571
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: So yeah, we're gonna talk about all of that. But

572
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: but here's here's here's the team. We've got Garrison Davis,

573
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: James Stout and we've got Christopher Wong and of course me, Sylvie.

574
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: How's everybody doing today? I'm doing great, magnificently. M Yeah,

575
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: So where's where's where's everybody's new civil war counters at?

576
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: Who here feels we're like we're we're closer and who

577
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: he feels like we've gotten further away? Well, it's definitely

578
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: gone up. It's definitely gone up a little bit. Um. Yeah,

579
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: temperature is a little higher for sure. I mean we're

580
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: still not really around the averages around J six, but

581
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: it's it is, it's it's it's the highest it's been

582
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: around like the Biden administration. Um, yeah, I just made

583
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: some ceramic armor purchases. Is where my when when my

584
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: current civil war counter is at? Yes? I did just

585
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: get another set of rifle plates, got some side prates,

586
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: like you know, you know who had body armor is

587
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: the guy who single handedly attacked that FBI field office

588
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: in Ohio with a nail gun and then died in

589
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:30,239
Speaker 1: a field. Okay, before we get into that, Ricky, she

590
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: can we what the funk is going on with that

591
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: guy who like lit himself on fire in his car

592
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: and rammed into the capital barrier and like I forgot

593
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,719
Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, like that might adjust been a suicide

594
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: because we don't seem to have any clear evidence that

595
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: it was political. It's just it's just like a really weird,

596
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: like I don't know that that that's that's a kind

597
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: of thing that feels like if it was happening five

598
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: years ago, would have been like a major news story.

599
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: And when I was trying to find new stories about it,

600
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: so the first thing I did was, Okay, I googled

601
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: a DC car attack and I found a different DC

602
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: car attack. And then I go DC shooting and I

603
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: found a different DC shooting, and like if we combining

604
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: to do She's like, oh, this is We're living in

605
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: a great time. This isn't even the first, not even

606
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: the first person to drive their car into a Capitol

607
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: police barrier and then get out and start shooting, right like,

608
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: this is this is the United States. It's just something

609
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: we do here is incredible, approved marked the method. I mean,

610
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: it just it does kind of seem like it was

611
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: just a suicide, like that one was just that's what

612
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: the Capitol Police are saying. It was twenty nine years old,

613
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: didn't appear to be targeting any members of Congress fired

614
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: shots into the air before taking his own life. Um,

615
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: no officers shot their weapons. It was very it was

616
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: very quick. Mm hmm. Okay, yeah, it is interesting because

617
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: he is he is no Ricky Schiffer at that that

618
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: the DC stories seeks the Shipper stories, Yes, much more

619
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: funny having So this is obviously you have Donald Trump

620
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: get rated by the FBI, and then less than two

621
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: days later you have this guy show up outside of

622
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: an FBI field office, try to force his way through

623
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: or try to break through the bulletproof glass with a

624
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: nail gun and then winds up in an hour's long

625
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: standoff before being shot to death by the FBI. Which

626
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: is very funny because he so. I guess the thing

627
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: about this that's unsettling. Um, that that colleague of ours,

628
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: Jason Wilson pointed out on Twitter, and that I think

629
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: is worth noting, is that while this kind of thing

630
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: is is extremely American and very common. Um, the thing

631
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: that is kind of unsettling about shiff is that he's

632
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: not he's he's just he's he's straight up normal maga right,

633
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,719
Speaker 1: Like he's not from any of the There's no evidence

634
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: that he was kind of like dipping into these other

635
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: subcultures that are more explicitly like terroristic in their Nameforceman

636
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: says that he may have ties to Proud Boys, but yeah,

637
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: well we'll see. He was at J six, you know,

638
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: so I'm sure. But I mean it's what it is,

639
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: is a a guy who is a normal Trump supporter

640
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 1: um u in the Yeah, I mean, I mean he

641
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: was ultra to the extent of what he did a

642
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: few days ago, and he was on true social and

643
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: like he he was. Yeah, but I feel like that's

644
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 1: not that a regular Like if you watch the most

645
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: recent Jordan Clipper video, there's people doing like like regular

646
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: asked people saying things that are way more absurdan than

647
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: what they were saying two years ago. Like the real

648
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: reality has become so detached for a certain sect of

649
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: like Trump lifers, and it's just impossible to pry them

650
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 1: away to the point where they ineffectually attack an FBI

651
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: office with an l gun, yeah, and die in a

652
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: shootout hours later. And and Shiffer, I mean, one of

653
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: the things that you might compare a little bit to

654
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: Shiffer is you know, there have been particularly during the

655
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: Trump years, there were a couple of attacks on ice

656
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 1: facilities UM that were kind of like acts of desperation

657
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: from people who were politically radicalized by the things happening UM,

658
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 1: but also felt like there was kind of no hope

659
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 1: of of taking any sort of useful action other than

660
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 1: being an individual going out and attacking ice. And I

661
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: think this is a lot more similar to that in

662
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: terms of the headspace of the guy that it's similar to,

663
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: for example, like the Nazis shooting up like an Al

664
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 1: Paso fucking Walmart because they stopped by genocide, Like this

665
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: is this is a guy who was like purely radicalized

666
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 1: by mainstream conservative media UM and and the president's social

667
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: media network. He was directly radicalized by President Trump, as

668
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: opposed to like finding Trump funny and then like winding

669
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 1: up and some some funked up places online that radicalize him.

670
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 1: And that is unsettling, even though it's again pretty funny

671
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: what happened to him. UM. I think both of those

672
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: things can be true, and I think we have to

673
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 1: take joy in the times when individual maga dudes use

674
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: nailguns to try and attack the entire FBI. Really, he

675
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: really thought that that you can use that that bulletproof

676
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: glass can't be broken by bullets, but you can use

677
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: nail guns to just really well. He thought that this

678
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: gets to what the communities that he was kind of radicalized.

679
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 1: And he thought that because there's a lot of like

680
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: normal gun YouTube videos where people will, like, because the

681
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: thing on like gun YouTube is people will take different

682
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: kinds of firearms or other weapons and different kinds of

683
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: materials and see how the to interact together, right, Like,

684
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: do what happens when you shoot a bullet at this?

685
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:48,919
Speaker 1: How hard it is it to get through bulletproof glass?

686
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 1: What are ways? And like he certainly figured that out

687
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: because of because there are some specific videos people pointing

688
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: out that are likely the ones he watched, where like

689
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: there are ways that you can kind of damage and

690
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:06,240
Speaker 1: take the you can gradually like make bulletproof glass fail

691
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: by using a nail Then there are ways in which

692
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: you can do that. It just doesn't happen to be

693
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: a way. It's something you can do while you are

694
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: standing in front of an FBI field office without getting

695
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 1: shot to death by the FBI. Before before he before

696
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: he died, he posted a few messages onto truth saying, well,

697
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: I thought I had a way and I didn't. If

698
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: you don't hear from me, It's true, I tried tacking

699
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 1: the FBI, and and it'll mean I was either taken

700
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: off the internet, the FBI got me, or they sent

701
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: to the regular cops. To be fair to this guy,

702
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: he did successfully manage to shoot a nail gun at

703
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: the FBI office, and the FBI weren't the ones who

704
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: killed him. Like he actually got away from that, which

705
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: is highway patrol, wasn't. Yeah. He also called for people

706
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: to prepare themselves for combat in the days after the

707
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: FBI search and that we must not tolerate this one

708
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: along other posts around people urging to kill FBI agents

709
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 1: on site and be ready to take down other active

710
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: enemies of the people and those who try to prevent

711
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: you from doing it. All all that kind of rhetoric.

712
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: And there's like, sorry, I like the on site thing,

713
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: Like we all have this kind of joke about like

714
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 1: people dressing like Feds, right, but it's very funny that

715
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: he thinks that maybe they're coming out like men in

716
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,479
Speaker 1: black or something. Yeah, he's not going to be looking

717
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: for like like Feds and Patagonia, which which is what

718
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: they actually wear of. Yes, Yeah, if you see if

719
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 1: you see a Patagonia vest that is either a federal

720
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: agent or an Amazon executive, and either way you should

721
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: be frightened either way on site stand by just such

722
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: a generous interpretation that they take him off the internet

723
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 1: for the crime trying to shoot up an FBI office.

724
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 1: They did, James, he's not online, although like kind of

725
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: bluntly posting about the terroristic attack, you carry it out

726
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: on the FBI like as you are actively dying, I know,

727
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,399
Speaker 1: as he's doing it. You have to say, the man

728
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: had the soul of a poster. He had the poster. Well.

729
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: I think it's also like it's an interesting because this

730
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: isn't like because like there's lots of like mass shooters

731
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: who sort of who kind of have poster brain, right,

732
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,959
Speaker 1: but like this is like this isn't like like he's

733
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 1: he's not doing it for the post just has poster brain.

734
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: It is like this is sort of like it is

735
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: it is separate from someone doing a specific like memetic attack,

736
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 1: like an attack to entice memetic violence in the future.

737
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 1: This was just this was just his form of communication

738
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: as in his regular life. And it was and it

739
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: was the Ohio State troopers that pursued the vehicle yeah,

740
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: but I think that that at this point is something

741
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: that's kind of bleak about this right, which is like

742
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 1: the extent to which, like the extent to which the

743
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: way this kind of politics functions is by having like

744
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 1: you know, social media becomes your entire like social sphere

745
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: to the point where it's like, well, what are you

746
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: doing in your last moments is you're like running away

747
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: from the cops are about the shoot, was like, well

748
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 1: we're gonna post, Yeah, gotta gotta sit down at truth.

749
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 1: It's it's that scene from Love actually, but it's not

750
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,959
Speaker 1: true anymore, right where they're like talking about what people

751
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: did at nine eleven when they were stuck in the

752
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 1: towers and they like quote loved ones and told them

753
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: they love them. Not this guy you have to do

754
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: on true social this this guy, this guy didn't have

755
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: people Ricky schefferd no, um. I mean, so there is

756
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: One of the things that people have been asking again

757
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: is in the wake of this massive surge in the

758
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: right wing people talking about how it's time to have

759
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: a civil war. And one of the things you didn't

760
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: see is like as soon as Trump got rated, fairly

761
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: like mainstream mega figures who tend to be more careful

762
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 1: in terms of their language than like the radicals talking

763
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 1: about like it's war. You know, now we're at war

764
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: with a cold civil war, and most of them, like

765
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 1: Stephen Crowder, we're doing it to sell T shirts. But

766
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: that that's still that is an escalation in danger, right

767
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: because with that the rhetoric that becomes common again, you're

768
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 1: gonna have more Ricky shippers. And I'm sure that was

769
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:32,760
Speaker 1: part of like what was going on in this guy's

770
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: head is Okay, well, if we are in a cold

771
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,399
Speaker 1: civil war, then I'm not going to just sit back

772
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: and let the FBI destroy the only hope for Western civilization.

773
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: I've got to fight back. Yeah, that's that's that's what happened.

774
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: And and if you're people are asking kind of like

775
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 1: what is about to happen? What is coming next? Um,

776
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: I don't think the thing to worry about is like,

777
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: you know, two sides taking up arms and suddenly fighting

778
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: a big civil war. That is that is not I

779
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: think the realistic threat model. But I also disagree with

780
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 1: the folks who are like, look, it's just gonna it's

781
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: it's not gonna be a problem. You're gonna get a

782
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: couple of like lunatics, carriyat attacks. But it's all going

783
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 1: to be fine. Now. What is happening is, Um, we

784
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 1: are normalizing the language of political violence and normalizing that

785
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 1: violence is the only resolution to our political problems. And

786
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 1: that has gotten normalized for roughly thirty percent of the

787
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: voting population of this country. UM. That's that's where they are,

788
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: and that is intensely dangerous. UM. It is not. I

789
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: don't I don't think, and I think partly you could.

790
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: There's it's not entirely bad stuff that's come out as

791
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: a result of Trump getting rated. Some of it is

792
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: is positive because we are seeing that a significant number

793
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: of like the media people are UM scared of that

794
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 1: to a degree, UM and peeling back. There's an interesting

795
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: thing that happened just today. The article came out that

796
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 1: apparently Trump reached out to Merrick Garland and asked him

797
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: how he could lower the temperature. UM. And it's it's interesting.

798
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: It's it's Garland is who for the listeners, who doesn't

799
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 1: do not keep up with the attorney general? So the

800
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:14,399
Speaker 1: president of the FBI effectively, UM, that's not how politics works.

801
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 1: But let's just say that and make the people online

802
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 1: who pay attention to the way the government works, very angry.

803
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: But so basically what it seems like Trump is doing

804
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 1: is saying, hey, I recognize that, like things are bad

805
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: and scary, and the political temperature is like at a

806
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 1: boiling point. I want to try to use that as

807
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: leverage to work things out with the d o J.

808
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: So you could see this as a complement. You can

809
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: see it one as potentially Trump being just actually concerned

810
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: about the rhetoric because they're shooting more would not be

811
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,919
Speaker 1: a good thing for him. You could see it as

812
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: Trump being kind of manipulative and trying to use like, oh, well,

813
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 1: this is now the fact that my supporters are scary

814
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:57,879
Speaker 1: and carrying out terrorist attacks as a way in which

815
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: I can utilize leverage and like um exercise power over

816
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: the government, and and it's it's kind of a bargaining

817
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: chip that I have in my fight with the FBI.

818
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 1: Or you could even see it as potentially evidence that

819
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 1: he actually is scared of potential prosecution, because maybe this

820
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:16,919
Speaker 1: is him kind of that maybe this is a show

821
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: of desperation. It's really unclear at the moment what it is.

822
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: I can tell you I've read a couple of right wing.

823
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: The New York Times is the one that broke this story,

824
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 1: and they're they're reporting on it is pretty straightforward and

825
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 1: mostly focuses on the uh like claims made by Trump's

826
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 1: legal team about like, you know, how they attempted to

827
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 1: comply with the requests to bring in classified information. But um,

828
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: the right wing media coverage of this has been really

829
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 1: different and has shown it as like Trump is just

830
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: sort of desperately, you know, trying to trying to be reasonable,

831
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,959
Speaker 1: and the you know, the Justice Department, um just isn't

832
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: willing to talk to him. It isn't willing to work

833
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 1: with them at all. And that's kind of the way

834
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: it's being spun right now. There was that pro Trump

835
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: protest in d C, which got no one to show

836
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: up because it was either canceled or a whole bunch

837
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: of like forums or image boards or for blogs told

838
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: people not to go because they thought it could be

839
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: a trap. And I think stuff like that happening in

840
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,720
Speaker 1: d C might still take a long time to recover

841
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: after j six, But stuff that's happening in other capitals

842
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: and other places and other now FBI offices is much

843
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 1: more concerning, and I think more localized shows of support

844
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: for President Trump or support for just whatever the current

845
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: thing is is probably gonna it's gonna continue going with

846
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: some image of militancy and right, whether that's people in

847
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: Hawaiian shirts showing up with guns outside the FBI office

848
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: you've seen in Arizona just in the last couple of days, yeah,

849
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 1: literally yesterday. As you record this, um, when it comes

850
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: to actual like, so, one of the reasons people have

851
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: been concerned about out civil war stuff is and this

852
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,919
Speaker 1: is not unreasonable, is the fact that you have had

853
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: Republican officials, including some state level elected officials, particularly in Florida,

854
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: saying some pretty wild shit, um, including like a state

855
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 1: congressional candidate talking about, um, we need to basically kick

856
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: the FBI out of the entire state. Governor de Santis

857
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: needs to exercise uh like the basically saying that De

858
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 1: Santis needs to use Florida state law enforcement to stop

859
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 1: the FBI from investigating the former president and where that

860
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: to happen, that would be a big deal, that would

861
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: be um like, that is the kind of thing that

862
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 1: could lead to a massive civil conflict, right because vaguely

863
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 1: speaking stuff like that is what causes what started the

864
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 1: actual shooting in the last Civil War is state saying

865
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: we are not recognizing the authority of the federal government.

866
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 1: We're not doing a thing that the federal government tells

867
00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 1: us we have to UM, and this is some thing

868
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: like there's a lot of support from MAGA folks for this.

869
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 1: Ben Collins Um, who does I think for NBC, was

870
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 1: posting the other day UM a lot of like different

871
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,320
Speaker 1: Trump queue forum sort of posts where people are saying, hey,

872
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 1: don jr Um, we know you lurk on the site,

873
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 1: you should cross the rubicon and you know, somehow get

874
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: to santist to use Florida law enforcement to attack the FBI.

875
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 1: And there's some pretty gnarly stuff in those posts. Now,

876
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,439
Speaker 1: I don't think that that means there's actually I haven't

877
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: seen evidence that there's much political world for that. And

878
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 1: in fact, one of the things people are saying is

879
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: that it looks like there's a decent chance to Santis

880
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 1: um cooperated and helped because just wants to be president,

881
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:47,240
Speaker 1: because the Santis wants to be president, that he's actually

882
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:48,919
Speaker 1: like on board with this because he wants to funk

883
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 1: over Trump. Ye. Now, that is scary, and that is

884
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: I think a more realistic threat model than the idea that, um,

885
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: the Santis might have the Florida State trooper start shooting

886
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: against the sis as funny as it maybe to watch

887
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 1: Florida law enforcement shoot at the FBI, that would be

888
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 1: pretty funny, don't pretty funny? I know, I know. Um,

889
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 1: I don't think the sand just will do that because

890
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 1: De Santis really wants to be president, um, which is

891
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: just another scary possibility, and that would want us to

892
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 1: be less funny to watch. Um. It's it's like, it's

893
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: not great overall. It's a it's too great, it's too

894
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,399
Speaker 1: not great sets of choices here. Yeah. And I think

895
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 1: if we're looking at like with the actual kind of

896
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: mass civil threat is as opposed to De Santis declaring

897
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: a secession or something and the Trump States trying to

898
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: declare their independence. I think the actual threat is that

899
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 1: this could damage Trump enough that he doesn't run into Santis.

900
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 1: Maybe is and this is very unclear by the way

901
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: you look at the polling. It's extremely unclear as to

902
00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,439
Speaker 1: whether or not to Santis would do better than Trump

903
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: in a in a national election right now. Um, But

904
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 1: some of the polling does suggest that even as unpopular

905
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 1: as Biden is right now, um, he still has a

906
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:12,280
Speaker 1: sizeable lead over Trump in any headaway because that people

907
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 1: fucking hate Donald Trump. Right if you are not one

908
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 1: of the people who was on the verge of attacking

909
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,879
Speaker 1: an FBI building right now, you don't like him, even

910
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,760
Speaker 1: if Biden has not done anything to help you, at

911
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: least in your mind, um, you know, than than And

912
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 1: so that that is kind of the bet that the

913
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 1: Santis is making. And I think what scares me most

914
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: about the rhetoric we're seeing right now, less than the

915
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 1: fact the idea that like Florida is going to declare

916
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: war on the fucking d C government, is the threat

917
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: that the rhetoric will stay at this heightened level and

918
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: you're already seeing. The thing that scares me more than

919
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,839
Speaker 1: talk about like we should succeed, is talk about like, well,

920
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 1: when we're back in power, we're just going to send

921
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: the FBI after everybody that is that we considered it

922
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: to me, let's let's let's raid them all, you know.

923
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: And that's the thing that scares me. And that's the

924
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: thing that I think could actually lead to the high

925
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 1: It's loss of life. There's there's that part, and then obviously,

926
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: like in terms of like bringing it back to what

927
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 1: we to stuff we talked about on the show, a

928
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: de Santist like presidency would be extremely hostile to queer people,

929
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: way way, way more so than Trump um, and that

930
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: would be varying on some very dangerous and very unshaky ground.

931
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 1: And I think in the short term too, there's there's

932
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 1: another danger there, which is that like we see this

933
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 1: kind of militancy from the right like spreading more and

934
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 1: more into just the other campaigns that they're doing, and

935
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: so you know, we start getting attacks of gender clinics,

936
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: we start seeing more attacks and abortion clinics, and I

937
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 1: think that's as possible. And I think also like another

938
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 1: thing to be thinking about is looking what what happened

939
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: to where specifically around the anti lockdown stuff. You know,

940
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: you just we just had a whole bunch of armed

941
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 1: people like occupying capital buildings and it worked. It was

942
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: it was incredibly effective. Right, Like there is like the

943
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: the net result of that and the sort of like

944
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 1: resulting political campaign from it is that like the entire

945
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: Democratic Party has decided that it just doesn't like it's

946
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 1: not even gonna talk about COVID anymore. And like the

947
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 1: CDC is just like pretending it doesn't exist, and so

948
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: like like that that that strategy like that there's just

949
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 1: the things again like that stuff was the actual policies

950
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: like stuff like like like like vaccine mandates for teachers.

951
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 1: It's like a sixty four percent approve of reading, right,

952
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 1: Like the actual like everyone doesn't die from COVID policies

953
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 1: are popular. It's just that like this sort of you know,

954
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:31,919
Speaker 1: getting getting getting getting a bunch of guys with guns

955
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 1: to go into a capital building and then yell about

956
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: it is enough of a political threat that that they

957
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 1: can they can force the Democrats to back down. And yeah,

958
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 1: there's I think there's I think there's an anzero chance

959
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 1: they start trying to do this other things I start

960
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 1: trying to do this with like hey, if you're gonna

961
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: have gender clinics in your state, we're going to start

962
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,279
Speaker 1: occupying capitals again. And you could see the fact that

963
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: and one of the things that is unclear that makes

964
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 1: it hard to tell if so, it is unclear as

965
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: to whether or not the Biden White House knew that

966
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 1: this rate was happening, like and who knew. There are

967
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 1: definitely reports that some staffers found out about it on

968
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: fucking Twitter. I have to I have to assume that

969
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 1: the president was aware of it, and like it was

970
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 1: probably hint that he to some extent pushed for it. Um.

971
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 1: I would have trouble believing that he did not, because

972
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 1: it's the FBI rating a former president, Right, The FBI

973
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,399
Speaker 1: has a lot of power. But I don't think that's

974
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 1: a thing that the Feds just do because right, like

975
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,399
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, you have to have Garland on your side.

976
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 1: And if Garland is, you know, directing this to some extent,

977
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: and like I'm sure Biden is aware and that might be.

978
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 1: And the idea rector that Trump appointed, Yeah, yeah, Chris

979
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 1: ray Um, who sucks. They I mean, obviously they all suck.

980
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:44,879
Speaker 1: Everybody involved in this sucks. There's a great post someone

981
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 1: made right after the raid that says, look, I want

982
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: to make it really clear, the FBI cannot do good things,

983
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: but they can do funny things. And this is extremely funny.

984
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 1: And I just like that specifically, some of the some

985
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:02,959
Speaker 1: of the crimes around key being classified documents and this

986
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: specific FBI director are both things that either Trump signed

987
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 1: into into law or he appointed himself. Yeah, it is

988
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 1: very funny. I have been talking to people who have

989
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 1: had UH security clearances and understand some of that, and um,

990
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: like the ship that they got from his house and

991
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 1: those eleven boxes or whatever is the kind of thing

992
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 1: that like does not get fucked with and the way

993
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 1: that Trump would like fucked with it. Like it's I mean,

994
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 1: the fact that the Espionage Act is in play is

995
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 1: pretty shocking. Um as is the fact that brand Paul

996
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 1: is now calling for the Espionage Act to be dissolved,

997
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 1: which like based absolutely incredibly based Randall. I mean, it is, yeah,

998
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 1: it is, really, it is. Really it is a thing

999
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 1: to watch everyone go like, you know, a defund FBI,

1000
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 1: abolish FBI just because power gets used against one person

1001
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: one's time, and you're like, oh, this power only exists

1002
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 1: to hurt minorities. Why is it being used to hurt

1003
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 1: me or someone who I who I look up to.

1004
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 1: There's a discourse on the left right now that is like,

1005
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 1: should we be working with the right to defund the

1006
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 1: FBI or whatever? And here's the thing, in my opinion, no,

1007
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 1: you should not work with the right on any of

1008
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 1: this stuff because they don't want to get rid of

1009
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: the FBI. They want to take the weapon re empower

1010
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:27,720
Speaker 1: that the FBI has and they want to like deploy

1011
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 1: it differently, but they still want that power to exist, right, Um,

1012
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: So no, you can't work with them on that. However,

1013
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,919
Speaker 1: if they start actually trying to remove the spion Age Act,

1014
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 1: then absolutely we should vote to remove the SPIO. That's

1015
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: that's fine. Like just like if they actually vote to

1016
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 1: reduce funding to federal law enforcement, that's fine. But that

1017
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: doesn't mean, like you you act as if they're legitimately

1018
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 1: fighting against any of this stuff. But um, when it

1019
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:59,320
Speaker 1: comes to so, I think that there's some potential evidence

1020
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 1: just the fact that this rate happened that shows that

1021
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: maybe there are folks in the Biden administration who understand

1022
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:09,280
Speaker 1: the stakes of the fight and are taking it seriously.

1023
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 1: Because this is potential, I mean, and we'll see how

1024
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: it shakes out. It's all still too early to know

1025
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 1: if like anything more serious than his house being disrupted

1026
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:19,439
Speaker 1: is going to happen. But like, if they really throw

1027
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:22,319
Speaker 1: down legally against Trump in this way to try to

1028
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 1: stop him from being able to hold office again and

1029
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 1: to try to actually punish him for his abuses of power, um,

1030
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 1: that's potentially a pretty smart move. If they have the stones, right,

1031
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 1: That's a big question is like are they going to

1032
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: back down because the right starts threatening to shoot things up? So,

1033
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:41,759
Speaker 1: like the scary thing potential here is that the right

1034
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 1: wing starts howling about how they're going to do a

1035
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:45,800
Speaker 1: bunch of murders over this, and so the d o

1036
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: J backs off and the right is like, well, what

1037
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 1: if we just threatened to commit mass murder anytime something

1038
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,359
Speaker 1: we don't like happens, Maybe that's how we win politics. Now,

1039
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 1: the positive with this is that, like the way fascists

1040
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 1: succeed historically is because people who are not fascists are

1041
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 1: not really willing to fight them, and so the fascists

1042
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 1: go for it and everybody else backs off because they're

1043
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,840
Speaker 1: scared of having a fight. Right, So if this shows

1044
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 1: that there's actually some teeth within the Democratic Party to

1045
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,920
Speaker 1: throw down, that's potentially a sign that like they've started

1046
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: to recognize where the stakes are. Um, that shouldn't be

1047
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 1: taken as too high of a possibility. I'm looking at

1048
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 1: a post from David froome Um, famed centrist idiot, who's

1049
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:32,160
Speaker 1: talking about how he thinks of De Santis nomination represented

1050
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: a much better outcome for the whole country than a

1051
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 1: Trump return. Maybe you don't like his manner or record,

1052
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 1: but he's a recognizably normal US politician. Oh no, if defeated,

1053
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: he'd go peacefully. Like first off, great, incredible that that's

1054
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 1: where we are right now that you're like, well, he's

1055
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 1: a fine He would be a fine candidate for the

1056
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 1: Republicans to run because he wouldn't try to overthrow the

1057
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 1: country if he lost. Number one, not certain about that,

1058
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 1: but number were two. Um, yikes. Again, if David fruit

1059
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 1: is saying something, he's wrong, right, that is that is

1060
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:09,839
Speaker 1: the rule of the rule of David Frum. He's one

1061
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 1: of those kind of like thinkers in American politics or

1062
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 1: whatever he's saying is not right. Yeah, And like in

1063
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 1: the Santis like right now, is like very openly like

1064
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 1: getting his people in position to take control of the

1065
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 1: Florida like to take control of Florida's like election procedures.

1066
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: Like he has this guy assault attorney general. It's like

1067
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 1: he's like very openly trying to do a what was

1068
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 1: the guy's name, help who rigged the election in Georgia

1069
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 1: a few years ago. Yeah, Yeah, he's like very obviously

1070
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: prepping to do that and it's like, I'm sure it'll

1071
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 1: be fine. He seems like a normal enough guy. Yeah, well, free,

1072
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 1: I do want to just read before we close out.

1073
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: Read a few things that how how the FBI and

1074
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 1: how the DHS have been talking about the threats that

1075
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:55,960
Speaker 1: they've been seeing, because how the kind of institutions of

1076
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 1: power talking about these same things is worth noting. Um. Yes,

1077
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 1: they released a memos saying that there are threats quote

1078
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 1: occurring primarily online and across multiple platforms, including social media sites,

1079
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 1: web forms, video sharing platforms, and image boards. The FBI

1080
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 1: and DHS have observed an increase and violent threats post

1081
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 1: on social media against federal officials and facilities, including a

1082
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 1: threat to places so called dirty bomb in front of

1083
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,959
Speaker 1: the FBI headquarters and issuing general calls for civil war

1084
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: and armed rebellion. Um. So yeah, they said that they're

1085
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 1: they're they're looking at their looking at threats through like

1086
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 1: uh specifically and identifying proposed targets, tactics and weaponry. Um.

1087
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 1: And you know it goes it goes on to talk

1088
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 1: about the targeted for people in like the judicial system,

1089
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 1: law enforcement, government officials associated with the Palm Beach search,

1090
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 1: the targeting the federal judge who who who approved the

1091
00:58:56,600 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 1: search warrant UM, and the FBI has also observed the

1092
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 1: personal identifying information of possible targets of violence, such as

1093
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:09,800
Speaker 1: the home addresses and identification of family members, disseminated online

1094
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 1: as additional targets. So in terms of like what like

1095
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 1: the attack surfaces on these types of you know, image

1096
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 1: boards and social media sites. Uh even UM. But before

1097
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 1: before Schifferd did his attack, he posted when they come

1098
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:30,919
Speaker 1: for you kill them being American not a steer, And

1099
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 1: I think other kind of things that could be at

1100
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:37,800
Speaker 1: play and things that are worrying me as stuff develops.

1101
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 1: Not they're worrying me, not because they're convincing. They're worrying

1102
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 1: me because they don't need to be convincing. UM. Deceptively

1103
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:48,600
Speaker 1: edited photos and videos have gone viral across social media

1104
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 1: over the past week following the search UM. While guest

1105
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 1: hosting Tucker Carlson tonight on Fox News, Brian Clemide showed

1106
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 1: a fake image of the judge who signed off on

1107
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 1: this on the search warrant, sitting beside uh Is Glyssie

1108
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:06,920
Speaker 1: and Maxwell. How do how do you say her name?

1109
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 1: Jis Lane? Jis Lane? You know it's it's gilling gill

1110
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 1: Gillen Backwell, so you know, showing this, you know, quote

1111
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 1: unquote meme while not saying it's a meme, just showing

1112
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 1: the picture. On Friday, a fake video reporting to show

1113
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 1: another Fox host, Sean Hannity arguing with Florida Governor run

1114
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 1: De Sante's over the definition of what an FBI rate is.

1115
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 1: But that discussion never happened. This was spliced together footage

1116
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 1: from years apart in different interview segments. Um hours after

1117
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 1: the video went viral on Twitter, the platform did play

1118
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 1: the manipulated media label, um uh and yeah, it's it's

1119
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 1: it's this kind of stuff that is going to be,

1120
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of like you know, trying to prospect,

1121
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:53,680
Speaker 1: trying to like prospect what the next few years could be,

1122
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 1: depending on who the who the president is, what types

1123
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 1: of like media is gonna be popular, How this is

1124
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 1: going to kind of impact the temperature politically and how

1125
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 1: people take in information and how people are willing to

1126
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:09,440
Speaker 1: turn information into action in terms of taking out of violence.

1127
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 1: How often these little small things are happening. Is it's

1128
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:17,480
Speaker 1: it's this, It's could be the start of a of

1129
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:25,440
Speaker 1: a thing that becomes a much bigger problem very soon. Yeah. Um,

1130
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 1: I think maybe like in terms of the temperature rising,

1131
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 1: we should discuss just really briefly these other sort of

1132
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 1: um more or less baseless or sort of wildly off

1133
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 1: based conspiracies around law enforcement that we've seen on the right,

1134
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 1: like in the last few weeks. Um, we do we

1135
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 1: want to talk about those? Do we want to talk

1136
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 1: about those separately? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

1137
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,960
Speaker 1: So there's there's a couple of things that have happened

1138
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 1: that have sent like the right pretty sort of crazy

1139
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:58,920
Speaker 1: in the last few weeks. One is the in the

1140
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 1: inflation reduction. There's there's this part where they say they're

1141
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:04,760
Speaker 1: going to hire eighty seven thousand new I R S

1142
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 1: agents right, yes, Yes, A large part of that is

1143
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 1: replacing the massive amount of virus people who are about

1144
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 1: to retire. UM, and the rest of it is getting

1145
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 1: them back up to sort of where they were a

1146
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 1: few years ago. It's not like they're going to actually

1147
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 1: hid three pandemic levels. Yeah. Yeah, so there are like

1148
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 1: seventy thousand I think half of them I supposed to

1149
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 1: retire in the next five years. They want to hire

1150
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 1: eighty seven thousand over the next ten years, so that

1151
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 1: will get them up like twenty thirty two to to

1152
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: where they were in nineteen or whatever. So it's not

1153
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:41,080
Speaker 1: what it's betrayed airs, but that combined I think with UM,

1154
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:44,440
Speaker 1: the A t F visiting a guy's house, which I

1155
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 1: know Garrison and I saw memes about in him, this

1156
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:50,480
Speaker 1: crazy little conservative newspaper that were that we came across

1157
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 1: when we're reporting on a story. UM and the A

1158
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:57,240
Speaker 1: t F reclassifying some think as the things that are

1159
01:02:57,280 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 1: called A R pistols, which we probably don't need to

1160
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 1: explain an the saying that they're a workaround for federal

1161
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 1: firearms or is that fair. Yeah, there's a bunch of

1162
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 1: different there's a bunch of kinds of guns that you're

1163
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 1: not supposed to be allowed to have without a special

1164
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 1: tax stamp, which is like a whole additional legal process

1165
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 1: in order to basically make sure that poor people can't

1166
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:21,080
Speaker 1: own certain types of specific firearms. And there's workarounds where

1167
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:23,160
Speaker 1: things function the same way as those guns that are

1168
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:26,120
Speaker 1: normally illegal, but they aren't technically that in the FBI

1169
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 1: or not in the A t F is about to

1170
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 1: crack down on some of that um and so yeah, yeah,

1171
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:37,440
Speaker 1: at the sort of combination of these things has led

1172
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 1: a lot of figures on the right. You'll see it

1173
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 1: in that thread. I think Rubbert shared it and I

1174
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:44,840
Speaker 1: shared it of like these dozens of tiktoks talking about

1175
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:47,480
Speaker 1: civil war that came out the day after Trump with raided.

1176
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 1: They talk a lot about I R S raids and

1177
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 1: about people coming for their for their guns and their

1178
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 1: short barrowed rifles specifically, which I think is the combination

1179
01:03:57,080 --> 01:03:59,880
Speaker 1: of these things leading to this sort of again like

1180
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 1: it's if you misunderstand each of those three things completely,

1181
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 1: you get to the conclusion that the the I R

1182
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 1: S has hired eighty seven thousand arms shock troops and

1183
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 1: they're coming after a R pistol, which it's not true,

1184
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:18,800
Speaker 1: but that narrative has definitely been sort of spread around.

1185
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:23,280
Speaker 1: And again it's not exactly decreasing the temperature, no, I

1186
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 1: mean just I think today Trump was on Fox News

1187
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:31,919
Speaker 1: Digital and he said, people are so angry at what's

1188
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 1: taking place. Whatever we can do to help, because the

1189
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:37,440
Speaker 1: temperature has to be brought down in the country. If

1190
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 1: it isn't, terrible, things are going to happen. The people

1191
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:44,320
Speaker 1: of this the people of this country are not going

1192
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:49,040
Speaker 1: to stand for another scam. So huh. I wonder what

1193
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:55,880
Speaker 1: he meant by that. Oh boy boy, Yeah, I guess

1194
01:04:55,880 --> 01:05:01,400
Speaker 1: like the others thing that I mean we kind of

1195
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 1: touched on. But I think it is important to understand

1196
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:07,640
Speaker 1: is the extent to which like Trump is kind of

1197
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:11,280
Speaker 1: a singular figure in his ability to actually get a

1198
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 1: bunch of people to do a thing. And like I

1199
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:16,919
Speaker 1: think that, like that that power I think is reduced sense,

1200
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:18,680
Speaker 1: you know, I'm like he's like he's not president anymore, right,

1201
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 1: because it's reduced since j six, Yeah, since six, But like,

1202
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:26,480
Speaker 1: you know, he still has the ability to mobilize, like

1203
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 1: ability to mobilize parts of the right that like you're

1204
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:33,439
Speaker 1: sort of like weird neo Nazi guy like can't and

1205
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:36,080
Speaker 1: he like you know, and like he he seems to

1206
01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 1: be aware of this, and he seems to be aware that,

1207
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:40,880
Speaker 1: like you know, he can use he uses as a

1208
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 1: bargaining chip or uses to sort of like threaten people.

1209
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:45,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, like that that's a real thing. Like it

1210
01:05:46,240 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 1: is a real thing that there's an incredibly large part

1211
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 1: of the country who like if Donald Trump told them

1212
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:53,160
Speaker 1: to like go die for him a normity beach or

1213
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:58,680
Speaker 1: something like they probably would. Yeah. Yeah. The FBI and

1214
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 1: Dachs in their moment, also warrant that midterm elections in

1215
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:05,880
Speaker 1: November could be seen as an additional flashpoint in which

1216
01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 1: will continue to escalate threats against perceived ideological opponents, including

1217
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 1: federal lawenforce and personnel. So stay tuned. Yeah, it should

1218
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:21,640
Speaker 1: if people I haven't realized. By the way, it was

1219
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:26,440
Speaker 1: bright Bot who named the FBI agents obtained a warrant.

1220
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:29,320
Speaker 1: Ye didn't bother to google what their jobs were. They

1221
01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:31,360
Speaker 1: were like what is what is the sacronym stand for?

1222
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:38,040
Speaker 1: No one knows. It's very secret pop journalism there. Yeah,

1223
01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 1: well good, we seem to be in a nice place

1224
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 1: then mm hmm. It's going well yeah yeah, start organizing now.

1225
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:49,560
Speaker 1: The best time to start this was yesterday. The second

1226
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:51,960
Speaker 1: best time is now, the third best time is tomorrow.

1227
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:56,120
Speaker 1: And don't don't let them take how funny this is

1228
01:06:56,160 --> 01:07:00,760
Speaker 1: as well? There is an a lessons here, which is

1229
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:03,040
Speaker 1: that like, there is an enormous amount you can get

1230
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:06,880
Speaker 1: away with politically as long as it's funny. And like, frankly,

1231
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 1: we we we have we have not been utilizing that

1232
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 1: towards the potential the left end, like anarchists in general,

1233
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:16,040
Speaker 1: have forgotten how to do good funny ship for the

1234
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 1: past ten years, and we have to bring it back. Yeah,

1235
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:22,920
Speaker 1: it is. This is We've been given a precious gift

1236
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:26,000
Speaker 1: and how funny this is. And we have a couple

1237
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:28,760
Speaker 1: of responsibilities, and one of them, of course, is to

1238
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:32,960
Speaker 1: organize in order to be prepared to counter increasing like

1239
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 1: attempts to impose an authoritarian violence on us. But another

1240
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:40,680
Speaker 1: thing that it is response that we have a responsibility

1241
01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:42,680
Speaker 1: to do is laugh at how funny this is and

1242
01:07:42,720 --> 01:07:45,200
Speaker 1: make sure that other people don't forget how funny this is.

1243
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:49,760
Speaker 1: So go out into the world and remind somebody that

1244
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:54,480
Speaker 1: a fucking trump nerd tried to take on the FBI

1245
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:56,640
Speaker 1: with a nail gun in an a R fifteen and

1246
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,920
Speaker 1: died in a fucking field in Ohio. Because that's pretty funny.

1247
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:21,599
Speaker 1: It's pretty funny. Welcome, that's what could happen here. I'm

1248
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:25,559
Speaker 1: Andrew of the YouTube channel Andreism, and I'm here with

1249
01:08:29,439 --> 01:08:32,840
Speaker 1: Oh it's me, it's Christopher. Yeah, we're doing what we're

1250
01:08:33,080 --> 01:08:37,080
Speaker 1: doing another episode of Bead and Andrew. We've sees the

1251
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 1: pod once again. It is too early in the morning

1252
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:44,519
Speaker 1: for anyone else to be here, which gives us ultimate power.

1253
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:46,960
Speaker 1: But you early in the morning, by the way, it's

1254
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:51,960
Speaker 1: it's eleven Pacific time. But yeah, there's there. There is

1255
01:08:52,040 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 1: no prayer of anyone else being around for this. So

1256
01:08:54,960 --> 01:09:00,439
Speaker 1: we are now in control here. Ha ha ha. Yes,

1257
01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:03,920
Speaker 1: we good. We're We're doing We're We're doing the Maniacal Lives.

1258
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:09,559
Speaker 1: We're doing the podcast. We're doing the podcast. Welcome, Welcome.

1259
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:14,599
Speaker 1: We want to finish the story, the soldiers story that

1260
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 1: is Quasi Bo Lagoon's life and legacy. UM. When we

1261
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:24,040
Speaker 1: last left off as part of the New York's City

1262
01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:28,840
Speaker 1: Panther twenty one trials, Kuasi was put in jail um.

1263
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:32,560
Speaker 1: At the same time, he was also developing his political

1264
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:39,519
Speaker 1: UM identity in a way and recognizing some of the

1265
01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:42,280
Speaker 1: issues he was having with the Black Panther Party and

1266
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:46,000
Speaker 1: particularly after the East Coast West Coast split that I

1267
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:51,320
Speaker 1: could Quasi as we as we covered last time, was

1268
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:55,759
Speaker 1: born Donald Reams, but took on the identity of Quasi

1269
01:09:55,800 --> 01:10:00,599
Speaker 1: Po Lagoon due to his recognition of his African nous

1270
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:04,760
Speaker 1: of himself Um through his experience in the army. Through

1271
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:08,320
Speaker 1: his experience in London, connecting with the black diaspora and

1272
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:11,920
Speaker 1: through his connections with the Uruba Temple and so Blagoon

1273
01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:16,519
Speaker 1: alongside that that personal recognition and political recognition of his

1274
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:21,280
Speaker 1: antitheater in politics, also comes to see himself as someone

1275
01:10:21,360 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 1: who is at war with the state, and as such,

1276
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:30,799
Speaker 1: once in jail, he sees himself as a political prisoner,

1277
01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 1: as a prisoner of war. While in prison, the Panther

1278
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:39,120
Speaker 1: twenty one were incarcerated in a variety of jails in

1279
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:44,480
Speaker 1: different boroughs of New York City, but by Lagoon, Blumon, Busheker,

1280
01:10:45,160 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 1: and another defendant, Kinshasa, they were all incarcerated the Queen's

1281
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:55,000
Speaker 1: Housed attention and they organize an uprising that took seven hostages,

1282
01:10:55,479 --> 01:10:59,599
Speaker 1: including a captain, five correctional officers, and a black cook,

1283
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:04,639
Speaker 1: pulling them from October one to fifth nine. The slogan

1284
01:11:04,960 --> 01:11:08,320
Speaker 1: of the multi ethnic takeover, which by the way, it's

1285
01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:12,639
Speaker 1: pretty unheard of in prisons where black, Latino and white

1286
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:17,880
Speaker 1: inmates come together. Um their slogan was all power to

1287
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:21,559
Speaker 1: the people, free all oppressed people, and so their primary

1288
01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:27,799
Speaker 1: demand was for speedier trials, and in this process Balgoon,

1289
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:32,679
Speaker 1: again developing his antithrogarian politics solely you know, crewing towards

1290
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:37,080
Speaker 1: what he would come to define himself as. Decided not

1291
01:11:37,240 --> 01:11:41,280
Speaker 1: to play a vanguard rule in this decision making process

1292
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:48,000
Speaker 1: in this uprising, even before he formally declared his commitment

1293
01:11:48,040 --> 01:11:52,519
Speaker 1: to anti authoritarian politics, his primary concern was consensus for

1294
01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:55,880
Speaker 1: all inmates and decision making, including access to food being

1295
01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:59,240
Speaker 1: brought from the outside, and so that sort of consensus

1296
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:03,519
Speaker 1: process also helped build his identity. The prisoners, they formed

1297
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:07,559
Speaker 1: committees to coordinate their uprisings and they agreed to release

1298
01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:09,920
Speaker 1: two hostages, the black cook and one of the prison

1299
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:13,000
Speaker 1: guards as a sign of good faith. Eventually they had

1300
01:12:13,040 --> 01:12:15,439
Speaker 1: to release all of the hostages, and they also suffered

1301
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:19,240
Speaker 1: abuse and charges from the uprising. It was sort of

1302
01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:22,760
Speaker 1: a failure, but of course he didn't see that way.

1303
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:25,960
Speaker 1: While he was disappointed by the outcome, he believed that

1304
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:29,760
Speaker 1: the power the inmates felt by holding the state to

1305
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:33,439
Speaker 1: be for that you know, limited moment was a valuable experience.

1306
01:12:33,439 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 1: It was a learning experience as an organizing So the

1307
01:12:36,439 --> 01:12:40,719
Speaker 1: uprising as growing pains to those who believe that oppressed

1308
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:44,040
Speaker 1: people would rise up and seek justice, because we can

1309
01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:47,000
Speaker 1: see that even with losses their lessons to be learned.

1310
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:51,479
Speaker 1: And this isn't unique to just this one moment in history.

1311
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:55,599
Speaker 1: In fact, we can apply it to more recent events,

1312
01:12:55,760 --> 01:12:59,640
Speaker 1: such as with the George Floyd uprising. It's easy to

1313
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:05,519
Speaker 1: be nihilistic. Nihilistic probably isn't best used to say cynical

1314
01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:09,479
Speaker 1: and say that, oh, well, the uprisings Ophelia, millions of

1315
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:12,000
Speaker 1: people got up and protested and nothing came out. It's

1316
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:16,080
Speaker 1: of it, really, And yet that, in combination with the

1317
01:13:16,120 --> 01:13:24,679
Speaker 1: coronavirus pandemic, brought people together two establish programs of mutual aid,

1318
01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:29,800
Speaker 1: to get involved in organizations in their local situation, to

1319
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:34,120
Speaker 1: connect with people, to radicalize themselves and radicalize others. It

1320
01:13:34,320 --> 01:13:38,240
Speaker 1: was not a loss, you know. Yeah, I mean, I

1321
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:42,559
Speaker 1: think there's there's an extent to which, even if it's

1322
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:45,960
Speaker 1: extremely hard to tell in the moment, there's there's this

1323
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:48,240
Speaker 1: way in which like participating something like that just sort

1324
01:13:48,280 --> 01:13:51,519
Speaker 1: of permanently changes you. And and main thing I think

1325
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:53,919
Speaker 1: also in the sort of context of the prison uprisings,

1326
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:58,080
Speaker 1: right like this is like this is by no means

1327
01:13:58,439 --> 01:14:01,040
Speaker 1: like the last prison of pricing that's going to happen

1328
01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:04,080
Speaker 1: in this era. And so I think, like I don't know,

1329
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:06,360
Speaker 1: it seems like one of those moments where it's like

1330
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:10,280
Speaker 1: in the moment, it's like, oh, we failed. Things look bad,

1331
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:14,160
Speaker 1: but like when in this sort of like broader historical sweep,

1332
01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:17,400
Speaker 1: it's like, no, this was like an early uprising in

1333
01:14:18,280 --> 01:14:19,960
Speaker 1: a period that is going to be sort of like

1334
01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:25,240
Speaker 1: an early yeah. Yeah, And I think that's something that

1335
01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:29,400
Speaker 1: can be really hard to like, like, especially in the moment.

1336
01:14:29,479 --> 01:14:31,880
Speaker 1: It can be really hard to sort of like see

1337
01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:36,720
Speaker 1: that because it's really easy to sort of like look

1338
01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:41,040
Speaker 1: narrowly at what you're one struggle is doing and then

1339
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:43,040
Speaker 1: you know, but yeah, if you have this sort of

1340
01:14:43,160 --> 01:14:45,760
Speaker 1: like you know, if if you have the ability to

1341
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:48,960
Speaker 1: sort of like see back through history, you can watch

1342
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:51,560
Speaker 1: how stuff like this just sort of like has this

1343
01:14:51,680 --> 01:14:55,000
Speaker 1: massive effect on consciousness in a way that the people

1344
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:59,240
Speaker 1: in it even have a lot of a hard time seeing. Yeah.

1345
01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:03,639
Speaker 1: So that's why, like I'm emphasizing the first part, it's

1346
01:15:03,680 --> 01:15:08,800
Speaker 1: really important to develop this perspective and to study our history,

1347
01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:12,519
Speaker 1: you know, a radical history, so we could learn, um,

1348
01:15:13,200 --> 01:15:15,720
Speaker 1: we could both you know, put things into focus into

1349
01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:18,040
Speaker 1: the perspective and also look at the specifics of all

1350
01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:24,240
Speaker 1: things played out. So after Bagoon's experience in the Panther

1351
01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:27,160
Speaker 1: Party and the oppression of the New York Chapter, he

1352
01:15:27,240 --> 01:15:31,240
Speaker 1: realized that the party was being turned away from its

1353
01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:35,080
Speaker 1: grassroots organizing of the black masses and the issues that

1354
01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:38,160
Speaker 1: affect the most, the daily survival, the housing, the education,

1355
01:15:38,320 --> 01:15:44,000
Speaker 1: police abuse. You realize the state was using it's in

1356
01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:48,480
Speaker 1: coostural system as a tactic by rounding up these organizers,

1357
01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 1: by infiltrating the party, by charging people these high bills

1358
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:56,840
Speaker 1: and such. It turned the party focus away from liberation

1359
01:15:57,400 --> 01:16:01,479
Speaker 1: to fundraies and for legal defense. And so he realized

1360
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:04,680
Speaker 1: he could not continue the fight, could not continue on

1361
01:16:04,840 --> 01:16:08,360
Speaker 1: this front, that he needed to survive and contribute underground

1362
01:16:09,080 --> 01:16:14,560
Speaker 1: to build a Black liberation army as a clandestine freedom fighter.

1363
01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:19,879
Speaker 1: As a miracle from the previous episode, Balgoon was severed

1364
01:16:19,960 --> 01:16:21,880
Speaker 1: from the case of thirteen of those who have been

1365
01:16:21,960 --> 01:16:25,240
Speaker 1: arrested originally to face charges in New Jersey, and after

1366
01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:28,519
Speaker 1: the acquittal of most of his comrades, Balagun Queen pleaded

1367
01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:32,360
Speaker 1: guilty to the charge that he, an unidentified person, did

1368
01:16:32,360 --> 01:16:35,400
Speaker 1: attempt to shoot police officers, making him the only one

1369
01:16:35,439 --> 01:16:39,200
Speaker 1: of the twenty one original defendants to be convicted However,

1370
01:16:40,160 --> 01:16:43,880
Speaker 1: in September twelve nine three, Balagon would escape from the

1371
01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:48,479
Speaker 1: New Jersey's Railway prison, shortly after his conviction for arm

1372
01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:52,000
Speaker 1: robbery in New Jersey. And then eight months after his escape,

1373
01:16:52,040 --> 01:16:56,839
Speaker 1: on May fifth, he was again captured trying to assist

1374
01:16:56,960 --> 01:17:01,000
Speaker 1: a fellow Panther Party member and defend done Richard Harris

1375
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:04,960
Speaker 1: from escaping custody. They were both apprehended after being wounded

1376
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:09,080
Speaker 1: in a gun battle with correctional and police officers. And

1377
01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:12,400
Speaker 1: so what I find interesting about that he risked being

1378
01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:17,160
Speaker 1: recaptured so he could free Harris. And that's solidarity right there.

1379
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:20,879
Speaker 1: He was so willing to sacrifice himself to help his comrades.

1380
01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:29,080
Speaker 1: That's admirable levels of commitment. And even though he was

1381
01:17:29,120 --> 01:17:34,760
Speaker 1: imprisoned and was disillusion with the Panther Party and that

1382
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:39,960
Speaker 1: discourages involvement or commitment to revolution. While incostrate, he began

1383
01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:44,000
Speaker 1: to explore anarchist politics. He received and studied literature from

1384
01:17:44,040 --> 01:17:47,280
Speaker 1: solidarity groups like the Anarchist Black Cross, which is an

1385
01:17:47,280 --> 01:17:51,280
Speaker 1: anti authority and organization that provides material and legal supports

1386
01:17:51,360 --> 01:17:55,200
Speaker 1: political prisoners. And I and I was reading this, I

1387
01:17:55,320 --> 01:17:58,800
Speaker 1: recognized that name Anarchist Black Cross the ABC. I know

1388
01:17:58,960 --> 01:18:02,840
Speaker 1: that because they also helped Lorenz combo Van to be

1389
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:06,200
Speaker 1: released from jail. They all provided him materials when he

1390
01:18:06,280 --> 01:18:11,439
Speaker 1: was incarcerated, and so kudos to them for that, you know,

1391
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:18,280
Speaker 1: helping to connect these people and connect these ideas. Yeah.

1392
01:18:18,280 --> 01:18:20,160
Speaker 1: And then in the Interos Black Cross, if I'm remembering

1393
01:18:20,200 --> 01:18:23,120
Speaker 1: my history right, like has a really really long history

1394
01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:28,160
Speaker 1: of doing this, going back to like I mean, I

1395
01:18:28,560 --> 01:18:31,240
Speaker 1: I know, I know they were negotiating like the releases

1396
01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:36,479
Speaker 1: of like political prisoners in the Bolsheviks went down. I

1397
01:18:36,479 --> 01:18:39,000
Speaker 1: didn't know they went that about that fount Yeah, I'm

1398
01:18:39,040 --> 01:18:44,880
Speaker 1: pretty sure. Yeah, if I'm if I'm remembering, And that

1399
01:18:45,000 --> 01:18:46,920
Speaker 1: just goes to show you might not see yourself as

1400
01:18:47,000 --> 01:18:50,200
Speaker 1: doing anything that meaningful. Well, I'm just sending books to prisoners.

1401
01:18:50,800 --> 01:18:55,240
Speaker 1: In reality, your building foundations, you and you know, the

1402
01:18:55,320 --> 01:18:58,840
Speaker 1: people who you influence can go on to influence so

1403
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:08,400
Speaker 1: many more, so many others. So anarchism ended up providing

1404
01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:12,479
Speaker 1: Balagoon with a great analytical lens to star up his

1405
01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:15,519
Speaker 1: critique of his experiences in the Panther Party. When he

1406
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:17,639
Speaker 1: looked at you know the works of like Emma Goldman

1407
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:20,759
Speaker 1: and others and apply them to the Black liberations struggle.

1408
01:19:21,400 --> 01:19:24,120
Speaker 1: He began to ask questions about how his comrades to

1409
01:19:24,200 --> 01:19:29,240
Speaker 1: going about revolution. How by allowing these hierarchies to develop

1410
01:19:29,320 --> 01:19:33,439
Speaker 1: in their organizations, they weakened their resolve in their fights

1411
01:19:33,439 --> 01:19:40,559
Speaker 1: and capacity. It's like, as he says, um the cauldrire

1412
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 1: accepted their command regardless of what their intellect had or

1413
01:19:44,080 --> 01:19:47,639
Speaker 1: had not made clear to them. The true democratic process,

1414
01:19:48,080 --> 01:19:50,080
Speaker 1: which they were willing to die for for the sake

1415
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:53,880
Speaker 1: of their children, they would not claim for themselves. And

1416
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:56,760
Speaker 1: so what Balagud wanted was a democratic process that would

1417
01:19:56,840 --> 01:20:00,040
Speaker 1: be established from today, not that you would have a

1418
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:02,880
Speaker 1: sitting system now and then you would wait until after

1419
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:06,280
Speaker 1: the revolution to set up a different system. It's like

1420
01:20:06,360 --> 01:20:08,400
Speaker 1: that whole connection of means and ends that you know

1421
01:20:08,479 --> 01:20:13,599
Speaker 1: anarchists keep going on about. He realized that the neediest

1422
01:20:13,680 --> 01:20:17,240
Speaker 1: democratic process to unleash the revolutionary potentially masses and not

1423
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:20,479
Speaker 1: make them pray to new oppressors. The only way to

1424
01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:24,799
Speaker 1: make a dictatorship of the proletariat is to elevate everyone

1425
01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:30,360
Speaker 1: to defleet all the advantages of power, and already an

1426
01:20:30,360 --> 01:20:37,479
Speaker 1: anarchist revolution has that on this agenda, one of his

1427
01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:43,519
Speaker 1: inspirations was a fellow clandestine freedom fighter, that being Italian

1428
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:49,960
Speaker 1: anarchists Eric Mala Testa, who exhorted that revolutionary struggle consists

1429
01:20:50,040 --> 01:20:54,240
Speaker 1: more of deeds than roods. You had a lot of

1430
01:20:54,280 --> 01:20:59,320
Speaker 1: different political figures and radical anarchists, but especially those involved

1431
01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:02,680
Speaker 1: in insurrection, especially those like Errico Manchester, who's also one

1432
01:21:02,680 --> 01:21:05,080
Speaker 1: of my personal favorites. When reading that, I found that

1433
01:21:05,240 --> 01:21:10,320
Speaker 1: to be a fun connection. Yeah he's so cool. Yeah, yeah,

1434
01:21:10,400 --> 01:21:13,640
Speaker 1: he really is. I see why why Zoe Baker likes

1435
01:21:13,720 --> 01:21:19,440
Speaker 1: him so much. Yeah. Another influence of his first Spanish revolutionary,

1436
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:26,080
Speaker 1: Jose Rutimage, organized the anarchist grilling movement Los Gesterros the

1437
01:21:26,120 --> 01:21:31,280
Speaker 1: avenger Once like their names Cereus, we're thought to be

1438
01:21:31,320 --> 01:21:35,679
Speaker 1: involved in political assassinations against you know, repression and driller

1439
01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:40,040
Speaker 1: raids on the military forces of the Spanish dictatorship. So

1440
01:21:40,160 --> 01:21:46,519
Speaker 1: people like Italian exiles Severan Severino di Giovanni and other

1441
01:21:46,560 --> 01:21:52,040
Speaker 1: anarchists like Sacco and Vincenti So Di Giovanni was known

1442
01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:55,600
Speaker 1: for his campaign of bombing as armed propaganda and soldarity

1443
01:21:55,680 --> 01:22:00,479
Speaker 1: with executed anarchists Sacco and Vancetti, and Giovanni engaged in

1444
01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:03,719
Speaker 1: ex appropriation of capitalist institutions, as a means of supporting

1445
01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:07,880
Speaker 1: the revolutionary movement and keep that point point in mind

1446
01:22:08,080 --> 01:22:12,479
Speaker 1: expropriation of capitalist institutions. To quote Mickey most, it's a surprise,

1447
01:22:12,560 --> 01:22:18,640
Speaker 1: too little help us later, all right. Another influence was,

1448
01:22:18,680 --> 01:22:21,560
Speaker 1: of course, I'm a Goldman, who was another advocate of

1449
01:22:21,600 --> 01:22:27,000
Speaker 1: revolutionary armed struggle, who supported her comrade Alexander Berkman's assassinated

1450
01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:34,200
Speaker 1: wealthy industrialist who believed in free love, which really resonated

1451
01:22:34,200 --> 01:22:37,040
Speaker 1: with Ballagoon. Because I'm not sure if I mentioned it

1452
01:22:37,280 --> 01:22:40,439
Speaker 1: in the previous part or not, but Ballagoon was an

1453
01:22:40,520 --> 01:22:45,680
Speaker 1: openly bisexual man in the nineteen seventies, nineteen sixties and

1454
01:22:45,720 --> 01:22:49,800
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, and so that equipment of free love that

1455
01:22:49,960 --> 01:22:54,960
Speaker 1: Emma Goldman had really resonates with him. Balagun also recognized

1456
01:22:55,600 --> 01:22:58,760
Speaker 1: and continues to recognize, that black people in the United

1457
01:22:58,760 --> 01:23:01,680
Speaker 1: States were an into colony of the US, and so

1458
01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:05,519
Speaker 1: the Black liberation struggled as a national liberation movement, so

1459
01:23:05,600 --> 01:23:09,400
Speaker 1: began to identify with the New African independence movement. The

1460
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:12,840
Speaker 1: Provisional Government of the Republic of New Africa the PGRNA,

1461
01:23:14,200 --> 01:23:16,960
Speaker 1: was founded in nineteen sixty eight March nineteen sixty eight

1462
01:23:17,080 --> 01:23:20,479
Speaker 1: at a conference of five hundred Black nationalists who declared

1463
01:23:20,520 --> 01:23:23,800
Speaker 1: that independence from the US and demanded five states in

1464
01:23:23,880 --> 01:23:28,240
Speaker 1: the Deep South South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana

1465
01:23:28,680 --> 01:23:32,559
Speaker 1: as reparations for the enslavement and racial oppression of black people.

1466
01:23:34,160 --> 01:23:39,320
Speaker 1: New Africa was designated the name of this new free nation,

1467
01:23:40,360 --> 01:23:48,160
Speaker 1: and at this time Balagun began to ideologically unite the

1468
01:23:48,360 --> 01:23:53,680
Speaker 1: political objective of the PGRNA for Independence um and and

1469
01:23:53,760 --> 01:23:59,120
Speaker 1: took on New African as his national identity. As he says,

1470
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:03,719
Speaker 1: the US has no right to confine in New African

1471
01:24:03,800 --> 01:24:07,160
Speaker 1: people to read lined reservations, and we have a right

1472
01:24:07,240 --> 01:24:09,400
Speaker 1: to live on our own terms, on our common land,

1473
01:24:10,040 --> 01:24:13,760
Speaker 1: and to govern ourselves free of occupational forces such as

1474
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:17,559
Speaker 1: the police, national Guard or gis that have invaded our

1475
01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:20,000
Speaker 1: colonies from time to time. We have a right to

1476
01:24:20,080 --> 01:24:23,479
Speaker 1: control our own economy, print our own money, trade and

1477
01:24:23,560 --> 01:24:26,200
Speaker 1: other nations trade with other nations. We have a right

1478
01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:29,760
Speaker 1: to control our education institutions and systems where children will

1479
01:24:29,800 --> 01:24:33,360
Speaker 1: not be indoctrinated by aliens to suffer the destructive designs

1480
01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:38,320
Speaker 1: of the US government. His position for black self determination

1481
01:24:38,920 --> 01:24:42,120
Speaker 1: was also combined with an anti capitalist perspective, the New

1482
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:46,080
Speaker 1: Africans would enter workforce within our excluded by design, and

1483
01:24:46,200 --> 01:24:48,599
Speaker 1: we have the wages are not controlled by the ruling

1484
01:24:48,640 --> 01:24:54,120
Speaker 1: class and their wealth. And so I think this distinct

1485
01:24:54,320 --> 01:24:56,519
Speaker 1: self expression is very important because it was a key

1486
01:24:56,600 --> 01:24:59,240
Speaker 1: aspect of his political journey and how he saw himself.

1487
01:25:00,120 --> 01:25:03,439
Speaker 1: UM the AFROC futurest Abolitionists to the Americas, which is

1488
01:25:03,560 --> 01:25:07,559
Speaker 1: a black an archaic radical collective based in the US.

1489
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:12,920
Speaker 1: UM they coined the term I believe Black an archaic

1490
01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:19,479
Speaker 1: radical in order to group and account for the different

1491
01:25:20,760 --> 01:25:23,560
Speaker 1: an archaic identity is that that black people have have

1492
01:25:23,720 --> 01:25:29,320
Speaker 1: identified us. So you have Anakata's, you have Black anarchists,

1493
01:25:29,400 --> 01:25:32,560
Speaker 1: you have New African anarchists, and then people who just

1494
01:25:32,680 --> 01:25:39,000
Speaker 1: go by bars and so at this time I think

1495
01:25:39,400 --> 01:25:44,480
Speaker 1: UM as a New African anarchist. Blaguna was definitely ideologically

1496
01:25:44,560 --> 01:25:48,360
Speaker 1: set apart from the black Marxist Leninists and revolutionary nationalists

1497
01:25:48,400 --> 01:25:51,200
Speaker 1: of the time, who wants to see state power for

1498
01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:54,640
Speaker 1: the from the white power structure of the US. And

1499
01:25:54,840 --> 01:25:57,479
Speaker 1: he still desired, you know, a land for black people

1500
01:25:57,520 --> 01:26:00,439
Speaker 1: to achieve self determination. Even as an anarchist, you wanted

1501
01:26:00,479 --> 01:26:03,559
Speaker 1: a space for black people to build a society based

1502
01:26:03,560 --> 01:26:09,880
Speaker 1: on antithoritarianism and freedom. I believe he was really unique

1503
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:14,840
Speaker 1: at that time and not for God. Like other bars.

1504
01:26:14,920 --> 01:26:19,280
Speaker 1: He also recognized the importance of national liberation. Like Ashanti Alliston,

1505
01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:24,800
Speaker 1: he began to recruit soldiers for the Black Liberation Army

1506
01:26:25,479 --> 01:26:29,840
Speaker 1: and converts of anti authoritarian a New African politics. While

1507
01:26:29,960 --> 01:26:33,280
Speaker 1: in Trenton State Prison and New Jersey, he formed a

1508
01:26:33,320 --> 01:26:37,719
Speaker 1: political study group with Black Liberation Army members and Black

1509
01:26:37,760 --> 01:26:42,600
Speaker 1: Panther Party members and started to shift their perspectives on

1510
01:26:42,800 --> 01:26:49,760
Speaker 1: antithithoritarian politics and so that political education behind bars became

1511
01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:53,080
Speaker 1: the main vehicle of recruitment into the b l A.

1512
01:26:54,479 --> 01:26:59,040
Speaker 1: Another member of the b l A was a jury

1513
01:26:59,520 --> 01:27:07,639
Speaker 1: until another fairly, I would say somewhat obscure. We're still

1514
01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:11,519
Speaker 1: like conic black anarchists. And when he was providing his

1515
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:15,720
Speaker 1: testimony concerning Blagoon's influence and his transition from Marxist Leninism

1516
01:27:16,120 --> 01:27:21,479
Speaker 1: to anti authoritarian thinking, he said, I became disillusioned with

1517
01:27:21,600 --> 01:27:25,559
Speaker 1: Marxism and became an anarchist thanks to Quasi bo Lagoon.

1518
01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:30,080
Speaker 1: Due to the inactiveness and ineffectiveness is Marxist Leninism in

1519
01:27:30,200 --> 01:27:33,800
Speaker 1: community in our communities along with the repressive bureaucracy that

1520
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:36,400
Speaker 1: came with it. People are not going to commit themselves

1521
01:27:36,439 --> 01:27:38,759
Speaker 1: to a life and death struggle just because of grand

1522
01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:41,559
Speaker 1: ideas someone might have fluts around their heads. A few

1523
01:27:41,600 --> 01:27:44,240
Speaker 1: people commit themselves to a struggle if they can see

1524
01:27:44,320 --> 01:27:47,479
Speaker 1: progress being made, similar to the progress of anarchist collectors

1525
01:27:47,520 --> 01:27:52,920
Speaker 1: in Spain during the era of the Fascists. Like his

1526
01:27:53,080 --> 01:27:57,360
Speaker 1: teacher and comrade Jor Lutalo identified himself as a New

1527
01:27:57,439 --> 01:28:04,000
Speaker 1: African anarchist. Prison of war, Balagon would escape again from

1528
01:28:04,200 --> 01:28:08,800
Speaker 1: Railway State Prison, New Jersey and Maine and rejoined a

1529
01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:12,240
Speaker 1: clandestine network of the l A Soldiers in alliance with

1530
01:28:12,360 --> 01:28:18,160
Speaker 1: white radicals in solarities of Black Liberation movement. This ideologically

1531
01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:21,599
Speaker 1: diverse network of insurgent militants were known as the revolution

1532
01:28:22,000 --> 01:28:26,040
Speaker 1: Armed Task Force or r A t F. And so

1533
01:28:26,080 --> 01:28:29,479
Speaker 1: it's a strategic alliance under leadership of the Black Liberation

1534
01:28:29,600 --> 01:28:34,040
Speaker 1: Army that consists of people of all sorts of different identities.

1535
01:28:34,560 --> 01:28:39,000
Speaker 1: You had Muslims and revolutionary nationalists and anti imperialists and communists,

1536
01:28:39,080 --> 01:28:42,680
Speaker 1: and b. Lagoon was one of the few, if not

1537
01:28:42,840 --> 01:28:46,559
Speaker 1: the only, anarchists in this whole organization and so even

1538
01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:49,679
Speaker 1: though he was critical of Marxism and nationalism, he decided

1539
01:28:49,720 --> 01:28:52,800
Speaker 1: to join the comrades he loved and trusted in a

1540
01:28:52,880 --> 01:28:59,479
Speaker 1: common front against white supremacy, capitalism and imperialism. Me personally, um,

1541
01:28:59,680 --> 01:29:01,680
Speaker 1: and I have a video of my YouTube channel about it.

1542
01:29:02,760 --> 01:29:07,679
Speaker 1: I am not a left unity advocate, never have been. However,

1543
01:29:09,360 --> 01:29:12,639
Speaker 1: like I said in the video, um, you know there's

1544
01:29:13,040 --> 01:29:15,839
Speaker 1: still solidarity to be had on some topics, and sidness

1545
01:29:15,960 --> 01:29:20,400
Speaker 1: use and an important aspect, an important component of solidarity.

1546
01:29:20,880 --> 01:29:24,080
Speaker 1: His trust and to Bilagon clearly had trust in these

1547
01:29:24,160 --> 01:29:27,479
Speaker 1: comrades in order to work with them. You know, it

1548
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:29,800
Speaker 1: can't just be this broad sweeping thing and say, oh,

1549
01:29:29,880 --> 01:29:34,240
Speaker 1: well's unity solidarity, unity solidarity, and there's nothing to back

1550
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:37,280
Speaker 1: it up. There's new sort of connections or bonds to

1551
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:41,040
Speaker 1: show for it. And of course he did have you know,

1552
01:29:41,160 --> 01:29:43,640
Speaker 1: political friction while in the R T R A T

1553
01:29:43,840 --> 01:29:48,639
Speaker 1: F his comrades. He saw his commerades is a bit rigid,

1554
01:29:48,720 --> 01:29:50,880
Speaker 1: a bit too rigid in their views. While he considered

1555
01:29:50,920 --> 01:29:55,320
Speaker 1: himself a free spirit and his comrades, despite the ideological

1556
01:29:55,360 --> 01:29:59,320
Speaker 1: differences and its sexual orientation, still respected him because of

1557
01:29:59,400 --> 01:30:05,040
Speaker 1: his commitment revolutionary struggle, because his history of sacrifices, and

1558
01:30:05,160 --> 01:30:07,600
Speaker 1: so the Black Liberation Army and the r A t

1559
01:30:07,800 --> 01:30:11,040
Speaker 1: F continue to carry out the condis signed work of

1560
01:30:11,320 --> 01:30:16,600
Speaker 1: armed propaganda, of expropriations of resources for capitalists, financial institutions

1561
01:30:17,120 --> 01:30:21,439
Speaker 1: for assisting comrades, and escape and from incarceration. At this time,

1562
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:24,800
Speaker 1: there was an increase in white supremacist parlam military activity,

1563
01:30:25,040 --> 01:30:30,760
Speaker 1: including the goo klux Klan, including the KKK, and so

1564
01:30:32,920 --> 01:30:35,920
Speaker 1: the r A t F as an alliance helped to

1565
01:30:36,520 --> 01:30:40,280
Speaker 1: the whites in that organization, helped to gather intelligence on

1566
01:30:40,439 --> 01:30:44,719
Speaker 1: these right wing white terms its activities and their connections

1567
01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:47,800
Speaker 1: with the U. S. Military. While they also engaged in

1568
01:30:48,439 --> 01:30:52,160
Speaker 1: expropriations to obtain resources, they could build a capacity to

1569
01:30:52,200 --> 01:30:56,840
Speaker 1: resist the white supremacist groups because these vold acts that

1570
01:30:56,920 --> 01:30:59,400
Speaker 1: the KKK and these other riping groups are doing in

1571
01:30:59,479 --> 01:31:02,400
Speaker 1: the late Land in seventies in early nineties, they were

1572
01:31:02,520 --> 01:31:06,400
Speaker 1: murdering black children, black youth in Atlanta, black women in

1573
01:31:06,560 --> 01:31:11,640
Speaker 1: Boston and an Alabama, and so they were committed and

1574
01:31:11,800 --> 01:31:15,439
Speaker 1: organized and doing something about it. Militant commit month to

1575
01:31:15,560 --> 01:31:21,439
Speaker 1: doing something about it. The r t F also um

1576
01:31:21,640 --> 01:31:24,680
Speaker 1: we're involved with the escape of a Stata Shaker one

1577
01:31:24,720 --> 01:31:28,920
Speaker 1: of the most iconic of the Panthers and also the

1578
01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:35,280
Speaker 1: attempted Brings expropriation in Nyack, New York. Shaker was wounded

1579
01:31:35,360 --> 01:31:38,400
Speaker 1: and paralyzed from a shootout that they had with the

1580
01:31:38,479 --> 01:31:43,719
Speaker 1: New Jersey State Troopers and had to escape the scene,

1581
01:31:44,360 --> 01:31:47,920
Speaker 1: and as a someone considered the soul of the b

1582
01:31:48,080 --> 01:31:51,800
Speaker 1: l A by the FBI, her capture was seen as

1583
01:31:51,880 --> 01:31:57,400
Speaker 1: a very significant event, and even though she never fired

1584
01:31:57,439 --> 01:31:59,799
Speaker 1: a gun, even though she was paralyzed, she was convicted

1585
01:31:59,840 --> 01:32:03,639
Speaker 1: for the murder of two state troopers who were killed

1586
01:32:03,640 --> 01:32:08,559
Speaker 1: in the shootout, and so she was sentenced to life

1587
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:15,360
Speaker 1: plus sixty five years. However, odinga Blagoon and two White

1588
01:32:15,360 --> 01:32:21,679
Speaker 1: Allies as a armed group facility the escape of Shaker

1589
01:32:21,800 --> 01:32:25,559
Speaker 1: from Clinton Correctional Institution Wooman in New Jersey on November two,

1590
01:32:25,720 --> 01:32:31,800
Speaker 1: n and I believe she's still in Cuba to this day.

1591
01:32:35,160 --> 01:32:38,080
Speaker 1: At the same time, the Vactorbriation Army was also trying

1592
01:32:38,160 --> 01:32:41,360
Speaker 1: to expropriate one point six a million dollars from a

1593
01:32:41,439 --> 01:32:46,920
Speaker 1: Brinx armed truck in New York City in October, and

1594
01:32:48,080 --> 01:32:51,200
Speaker 1: in the exchange of fire that resulted from that attempt,

1595
01:32:52,000 --> 01:32:55,840
Speaker 1: one Brings security and two police officers were killed and

1596
01:32:56,280 --> 01:33:03,720
Speaker 1: three white radicals and one black man we're also captured eventually,

1597
01:33:04,320 --> 01:33:06,240
Speaker 1: although he was laying loo in New York City in

1598
01:33:06,280 --> 01:33:10,920
Speaker 1: the Manhattan apartment, the Joint Terrorist Task Force did eventually

1599
01:33:10,960 --> 01:33:18,000
Speaker 1: apprehend Baldagoon and so once again he found himself in prison.

1600
01:33:18,400 --> 01:33:26,160
Speaker 1: But they did managed to successfully expropriate some fronts from

1601
01:33:26,200 --> 01:33:31,000
Speaker 1: financial institutions going back to nine and those funds that

1602
01:33:31,080 --> 01:33:33,599
Speaker 1: they were able to take were usually as to support

1603
01:33:33,640 --> 01:33:37,000
Speaker 1: the development of an underground infrastructure, to support families to

1604
01:33:37,040 --> 01:33:40,439
Speaker 1: political prisoners, to support political activities institutions for the Black

1605
01:33:40,479 --> 01:33:45,759
Speaker 1: liberation movement and general freedom struggles on the African continent,

1606
01:33:47,000 --> 01:33:51,160
Speaker 1: that is solidarity. After his capture as a New African

1607
01:33:51,160 --> 01:33:55,680
Speaker 1: anarchist prisoner of war for the the Good Time who

1608
01:33:55,760 --> 01:33:58,559
Speaker 1: as he spoke out to the movement for the first

1609
01:33:58,640 --> 01:34:04,560
Speaker 1: time again identify himself as a New African anarchist, he

1610
01:34:04,640 --> 01:34:07,679
Speaker 1: spoke to the public about his politics and I wanted

1611
01:34:07,720 --> 01:34:11,439
Speaker 1: to make his attentions clear. He acted as his own

1612
01:34:11,479 --> 01:34:14,439
Speaker 1: attorney in the Rockland County trial where he was charged

1613
01:34:14,479 --> 01:34:17,200
Speaker 1: with the armed robbery and the murders of the brins

1614
01:34:17,240 --> 01:34:19,960
Speaker 1: Garden police officers. And so you want to make an

1615
01:34:19,960 --> 01:34:23,960
Speaker 1: opening statement, and so it went as follows, I am

1616
01:34:24,040 --> 01:34:27,560
Speaker 1: a prisoner of war. I retract the crap about me

1617
01:34:27,640 --> 01:34:30,559
Speaker 1: being a defendant, and I don't recognize legitimacy of this court.

1618
01:34:31,360 --> 01:34:34,519
Speaker 1: The term defendant applies to someone involved in a criminal matter.

1619
01:34:35,520 --> 01:34:36,880
Speaker 1: It is clear that I've been a part of the

1620
01:34:37,000 --> 01:34:39,720
Speaker 1: Black liberation movement all of my adult life, and I've

1621
01:34:39,720 --> 01:34:42,400
Speaker 1: been involved in a war against the American imperialist You know,

1622
01:34:42,520 --> 01:34:46,000
Speaker 1: it's a free New African people from its yoke. He

1623
01:34:46,080 --> 01:34:50,080
Speaker 1: wanted it acknowledged that his armed actions are politically motivated

1624
01:34:50,479 --> 01:34:55,479
Speaker 1: to win national liberation, to eliminate capitalism, imperialism and ultimately

1625
01:34:55,479 --> 01:34:59,599
Speaker 1: authoritarian forms of government. And of course he was sentenced

1626
01:34:59,640 --> 01:35:03,599
Speaker 1: to life imprisonments. Yeah. He continued to speak to New

1627
01:35:03,640 --> 01:35:07,920
Speaker 1: African and Black liberation forces and two anarchists gathering through

1628
01:35:07,960 --> 01:35:13,240
Speaker 1: public skate statements. He advocated continuously for the building of

1629
01:35:13,280 --> 01:35:18,519
Speaker 1: an insurgent movement of building over tournaments communities at a

1630
01:35:18,600 --> 01:35:21,760
Speaker 1: hall and rally for imprison New African freedom writers. The

1631
01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:25,240
Speaker 1: statement was read that we must build a revolutionary political

1632
01:35:25,320 --> 01:35:30,120
Speaker 1: platform and a universal network of survival programs. In another statement,

1633
01:35:30,160 --> 01:35:32,200
Speaker 1: he said, where we live and work, we must organize

1634
01:35:32,240 --> 01:35:35,120
Speaker 1: on the ground level the landlords once we contested through

1635
01:35:35,200 --> 01:35:38,080
Speaker 1: round strikes, and rather than develop strategies to pay rent,

1636
01:35:38,240 --> 01:35:41,160
Speaker 1: we should develop strategies to take the buildings, set up

1637
01:35:41,200 --> 01:35:45,160
Speaker 1: communes and abandoned buildings to vacant lots into gardens. When

1638
01:35:45,160 --> 01:35:46,960
Speaker 1: our children grow out of clothes, we should have places

1639
01:35:47,040 --> 01:35:50,760
Speaker 1: we can take them, clearly marked anarchists clothing exchanges. We

1640
01:35:50,840 --> 01:35:54,720
Speaker 1: must learn construction and waste take back our lives. He

1641
01:35:54,760 --> 01:35:58,240
Speaker 1: wanted to challenge people to move from a theory into practice,

1642
01:35:59,320 --> 01:36:03,240
Speaker 1: to define in anarchy in the real will, to show

1643
01:36:03,320 --> 01:36:09,040
Speaker 1: the masses models of delivering water oppressors and of building

1644
01:36:09,520 --> 01:36:14,360
Speaker 1: a better way of life. Unfortunately, although he struggled long

1645
01:36:14,640 --> 01:36:18,599
Speaker 1: in prison and continuously advocated for the Black liberation movement

1646
01:36:18,640 --> 01:36:21,960
Speaker 1: for the anarchist movement, he died in prison on December

1647
01:36:22,000 --> 01:36:29,280
Speaker 1: thwote due to complications related to AIDS. So, although he's

1648
01:36:29,320 --> 01:36:33,080
Speaker 1: not a main extreme discourse, he's still recognized and respected

1649
01:36:33,280 --> 01:36:38,799
Speaker 1: in some blaque New African anarchists and queer anarchist spaces

1650
01:36:40,240 --> 01:36:43,960
Speaker 1: um because of his efforts in that time, because of

1651
01:36:44,080 --> 01:36:48,559
Speaker 1: his self identity in that time. I spoke about him

1652
01:36:48,600 --> 01:36:52,840
Speaker 1: briefly in my video and Black anarchism. The research five

1653
01:36:52,920 --> 01:36:55,080
Speaker 1: videos how it is covered in the first place. And

1654
01:36:55,120 --> 01:36:57,599
Speaker 1: I was surprised that he wasn't spoken about so much,

1655
01:36:57,720 --> 01:37:04,920
Speaker 1: considering his influence and his efforts and his She was

1656
01:37:05,000 --> 01:37:08,160
Speaker 1: almost like, and I hate to do this to history,

1657
01:37:08,520 --> 01:37:10,560
Speaker 1: to do this kind of great man things history. But

1658
01:37:11,360 --> 01:37:15,600
Speaker 1: the fan was like a main character. Yeah, Like he

1659
01:37:15,840 --> 01:37:18,240
Speaker 1: was there for the New York Plant, the twenty one Trials,

1660
01:37:18,400 --> 01:37:22,799
Speaker 1: he was like dropping rats and Congress. He was facility

1661
01:37:22,800 --> 01:37:25,439
Speaker 1: in the escape of a Sata sacre for crying out loud.

1662
01:37:27,520 --> 01:37:32,840
Speaker 1: He did so much in his short boost of freedom. Um,

1663
01:37:33,360 --> 01:37:37,439
Speaker 1: and I can't help but respect that he stood out

1664
01:37:38,360 --> 01:37:42,360
Speaker 1: most places he went, and I can't help but admire that.

1665
01:37:45,880 --> 01:37:49,479
Speaker 1: In two thousand five, the Malcolm X Grassroots Movement, which

1666
01:37:49,520 --> 01:37:53,599
Speaker 1: is a new African activist organization, declared its annual Black

1667
01:37:53,720 --> 01:37:58,560
Speaker 1: Orcus Celebration dedicated to Quasi par Lagoon, and they in

1668
01:37:58,680 --> 01:38:01,800
Speaker 1: that celebration they also iighlighted the needful awareness of the

1669
01:38:01,880 --> 01:38:06,400
Speaker 1: AIDS virus and Africa and among the African aspiral. A

1670
01:38:06,479 --> 01:38:09,160
Speaker 1: couple of radical hip hop artists, such as Dead Prayers

1671
01:38:09,240 --> 01:38:12,800
Speaker 1: Inside Malik, have also mentioned bo Lagoon's name, but his

1672
01:38:12,920 --> 01:38:16,760
Speaker 1: name is still not commonly used enough, not as much

1673
01:38:16,840 --> 01:38:23,719
Speaker 1: as other Black revolutionaries like Hue and Shaker and Mutulu Shaker.

1674
01:38:27,160 --> 01:38:31,400
Speaker 1: Anarchist collectives have also recognized him, have republished his works

1675
01:38:32,320 --> 01:38:35,640
Speaker 1: um have you know, but his his his writings and

1676
01:38:35,840 --> 01:38:43,400
Speaker 1: newsletters and his trial statements and tributes, and yet he's

1677
01:38:43,439 --> 01:38:49,960
Speaker 1: still not well recognized. The Quebec collective Solarity is you

1678
01:38:50,080 --> 01:38:54,200
Speaker 1: have collected works of Lagoon's trial statements, essays, poetry and

1679
01:38:54,200 --> 01:38:58,320
Speaker 1: acknowledgements from Comrades titled A Soldier's Story, which you can

1680
01:38:58,360 --> 01:39:05,679
Speaker 1: find on the Anarchist Library, And in fact, that soldiers

1681
01:39:05,720 --> 01:39:09,799
Speaker 1: story is where I drew from for uh the script

1682
01:39:09,880 --> 01:39:21,040
Speaker 1: for this two part podcast episode. I think that his

1683
01:39:21,160 --> 01:39:25,599
Speaker 1: efforts and not even to mention his actual identity, being

1684
01:39:25,640 --> 01:39:29,679
Speaker 1: a vehicle to challenge homophobia within the broader black liberation movement,

1685
01:39:30,080 --> 01:39:32,759
Speaker 1: because he showed himself to be committed to the cause

1686
01:39:32,960 --> 01:39:35,439
Speaker 1: and he exposed people who may not have otherwise been

1687
01:39:35,479 --> 01:39:40,680
Speaker 1: exposed to it, you know, the validity and the humanity

1688
01:39:41,680 --> 01:39:48,080
Speaker 1: in Aquare Comrades. He will forever remain remembered and saluted

1689
01:39:48,720 --> 01:39:52,680
Speaker 1: by certain revolutionary nationalists around cilanarchists and qualiberation forces. He

1690
01:39:52,680 --> 01:39:57,439
Speaker 1: will forever be seen to me as an iconic roun

1691
01:39:58,760 --> 01:40:01,439
Speaker 1: and I don't only who hope that this podcast helps

1692
01:40:01,520 --> 01:40:07,240
Speaker 1: his legacy to live on and encourages and motivates and

1693
01:40:08,160 --> 01:40:12,000
Speaker 1: strengthens the resolve of people too, Wogan and suppressed people

1694
01:40:12,080 --> 01:40:16,200
Speaker 1: to build a revolutionary program to challenge capitalism, to challenge racism,

1695
01:40:16,840 --> 01:40:21,800
Speaker 1: wherever they find themselves the master their circumstances. And that's

1696
01:40:21,840 --> 01:40:28,000
Speaker 1: about it. This has been a soldier's story, the life

1697
01:40:28,080 --> 01:40:32,639
Speaker 1: and legacy of Quasi Ba Lagoon. I'm your guest toes

1698
01:40:32,680 --> 01:40:35,760
Speaker 1: for this episode. If it could happen here Andrew of

1699
01:40:35,840 --> 01:40:39,120
Speaker 1: the YouTube channel Andreism. You can find your on YouTube

1700
01:40:39,160 --> 01:40:43,160
Speaker 1: dot com slash Andurism, on theatre dot com Slash sat

1701
01:40:43,200 --> 01:40:48,400
Speaker 1: Drew and onter com slash Underscore. Same true. Yeah, this

1702
01:40:48,560 --> 01:40:50,599
Speaker 1: this has been It can happen here. You can find

1703
01:40:50,680 --> 01:40:54,160
Speaker 1: us that happened here, pot on Twitter, Instagram, there's other

1704
01:40:54,320 --> 01:40:58,720
Speaker 1: close and stuff you can find that too. And yeah,

1705
01:40:58,960 --> 01:41:01,520
Speaker 1: I dedicate your life to over throwing capitalism and imperialism.

1706
01:41:01,920 --> 01:41:20,600
Speaker 1: Well power to all the people. It's it's it's it

1707
01:41:20,640 --> 01:41:24,120
Speaker 1: could happen here the podcast. The thing that's happening here

1708
01:41:24,400 --> 01:41:27,479
Speaker 1: is that once again, like a bunch of random American

1709
01:41:27,520 --> 01:41:30,679
Speaker 1: politicians are going in Taiwan, and this time they didn't

1710
01:41:30,680 --> 01:41:33,160
Speaker 1: announced they were going, apparently because announcing they were going

1711
01:41:33,280 --> 01:41:39,640
Speaker 1: last time went great. So yeah, this is this is,

1712
01:41:39,720 --> 01:41:42,400
Speaker 1: this is what we're talking about today, and with with

1713
01:41:42,560 --> 01:41:44,640
Speaker 1: me is James. Hello, James, how you How you doing

1714
01:41:44,720 --> 01:41:51,200
Speaker 1: all right? I'm wonderful and I'm splendid. Oh okay, So

1715
01:41:51,600 --> 01:41:53,560
Speaker 1: we have to talk about Taiwan. And I think like

1716
01:41:54,280 --> 01:41:56,360
Speaker 1: people who've listened to me on this show for a

1717
01:41:56,400 --> 01:41:59,479
Speaker 1: while know that, like, so like, okay, a lot of

1718
01:41:59,520 --> 01:42:03,000
Speaker 1: my family some Taiwan I don't like talking about Taiwan

1719
01:42:03,160 --> 01:42:07,120
Speaker 1: very much. Um I I think I've talked about Taiwanese

1720
01:42:07,160 --> 01:42:09,400
Speaker 1: politics and detail exactly once on this show when I

1721
01:42:09,479 --> 01:42:12,439
Speaker 1: was forced to for the Iguana Woods shooting, and like,

1722
01:42:12,600 --> 01:42:14,320
Speaker 1: I would really prefer not to, Like, it's not something

1723
01:42:14,320 --> 01:42:16,680
Speaker 1: I particularly enjoy talking about, which is you know, a

1724
01:42:16,680 --> 01:42:19,960
Speaker 1: big part about what we haven't, But unfortunately I can't

1725
01:42:19,960 --> 01:42:23,439
Speaker 1: continue not to talk about it because the American left,

1726
01:42:23,479 --> 01:42:25,519
Speaker 1: and and this is true of not just the American institutes,

1727
01:42:25,680 --> 01:42:28,439
Speaker 1: the British sloft, this is true of the left kind

1728
01:42:28,520 --> 01:42:32,439
Speaker 1: of writ large is being systematically lied to about Taiwan

1729
01:42:32,520 --> 01:42:35,000
Speaker 1: by a group of incredibly malicious nationalists who are attempting

1730
01:42:35,000 --> 01:42:40,120
Speaker 1: to rally support for their like incredibly violent and bizarre

1731
01:42:40,200 --> 01:42:44,920
Speaker 1: imperial delusions, and unfortunately it's working. So I'm and instead

1732
01:42:44,960 --> 01:42:46,800
Speaker 1: of that, I'm going to give what I'm gonna call

1733
01:42:46,840 --> 01:42:48,840
Speaker 1: Taiwan one oh one, and I'm calling it tai Wan

1734
01:42:48,920 --> 01:42:50,040
Speaker 1: one on one, even though this is going to be

1735
01:42:50,080 --> 01:42:53,880
Speaker 1: like an hour long, because this is as far as

1736
01:42:53,920 --> 01:42:57,559
Speaker 1: I could cut this whole thing down, Like, Taiwanese politics

1737
01:42:57,680 --> 01:42:59,519
Speaker 1: is genuinely complicated, as part of the reason I don't

1738
01:42:59,560 --> 01:43:01,160
Speaker 1: like talking about at it and at people who are

1739
01:43:01,200 --> 01:43:03,120
Speaker 1: giving you simple answers to what's happening in Taiwan are

1740
01:43:03,200 --> 01:43:05,320
Speaker 1: lying to you. This is the best I can do,

1741
01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:07,519
Speaker 1: and it this is this is like the length of

1742
01:43:07,520 --> 01:43:13,280
Speaker 1: a Battels episode. So nice, I'm excited. Yeah, So well,

1743
01:43:13,320 --> 01:43:15,639
Speaker 1: welcome to tai Won one on one. Um. The beginning

1744
01:43:15,680 --> 01:43:17,360
Speaker 1: of Tie one one on one is that Taiwan is

1745
01:43:17,360 --> 01:43:20,599
Speaker 1: a series of islands off the coast of China. And yes,

1746
01:43:20,720 --> 01:43:23,000
Speaker 1: there are a bunch of islands. Nobody talks about this

1747
01:43:23,360 --> 01:43:27,439
Speaker 1: like because again, the people who talk about Taiwan like

1748
01:43:27,479 --> 01:43:30,880
Speaker 1: couldn't find their own ass on a map, so you know,

1749
01:43:32,080 --> 01:43:33,840
Speaker 1: there there, there, there's a bunch of islands. There's one

1750
01:43:33,880 --> 01:43:38,680
Speaker 1: big one that there's several like a lot of smaller ones. Um. Now,

1751
01:43:39,200 --> 01:43:41,519
Speaker 1: one of the sort of fundamental principles of not just

1752
01:43:41,600 --> 01:43:43,880
Speaker 1: being on the left, but like being a decent person

1753
01:43:44,160 --> 01:43:47,640
Speaker 1: is self determination. And you know, self determination on on

1754
01:43:47,720 --> 01:43:50,479
Speaker 1: a very basic level is that people have the right

1755
01:43:50,560 --> 01:43:53,000
Speaker 1: to choose how they want to live, and in a

1756
01:43:53,040 --> 01:43:55,920
Speaker 1: more immediate political context, they have the right to choose

1757
01:43:55,960 --> 01:43:58,040
Speaker 1: how they want to organize their governments and who they

1758
01:43:58,120 --> 01:44:01,559
Speaker 1: do and don't want to be ruled by. So okay, well,

1759
01:44:01,640 --> 01:44:05,120
Speaker 1: what are the actual numbers in Taiwan? Say, well, okay,

1760
01:44:05,160 --> 01:44:08,040
Speaker 1: we we we have recent pulling from the National Chung

1761
01:44:08,160 --> 01:44:12,040
Speaker 1: Chi University's elect Election Studies Center which says that a

1762
01:44:12,120 --> 01:44:15,879
Speaker 1: grand total of six point six percent of Taiwan's population

1763
01:44:15,960 --> 01:44:20,560
Speaker 1: wants unification with China. The overwhelming majority of people in

1764
01:44:20,640 --> 01:44:28,040
Speaker 1: Taiwan eight want to just maintain the status quo, which, yeah,

1765
01:44:28,040 --> 01:44:30,200
Speaker 1: I guess I said. So the status quo right now

1766
01:44:30,479 --> 01:44:36,720
Speaker 1: is that like China claims that it is the sole

1767
01:44:36,840 --> 01:44:43,400
Speaker 1: legitimate government of Taiwan. UM, Taiwan like technically legally claims

1768
01:44:43,560 --> 01:44:45,960
Speaker 1: that they are the sole legitimate government China. Nobody actually

1769
01:44:46,000 --> 01:44:50,599
Speaker 1: believes that anymore. Like, if if you scoured the entirety

1770
01:44:50,640 --> 01:44:52,639
Speaker 1: of Taiwan, you might find six dudes in a bunker

1771
01:44:53,120 --> 01:44:56,640
Speaker 1: who still believe that, like they're the real government of Tchina. Like,

1772
01:44:57,320 --> 01:45:00,479
Speaker 1: the actual status quo is that Taiwan is basically de

1773
01:45:00,600 --> 01:45:05,320
Speaker 1: fact is like this, Taiwan is de factoway self governing

1774
01:45:05,400 --> 01:45:09,679
Speaker 1: policy that has elections and stuff, And yeah, everyone gets

1775
01:45:09,680 --> 01:45:12,760
Speaker 1: incredibly mad about this. Most people want to preserve the

1776
01:45:12,800 --> 01:45:16,080
Speaker 1: status quo. Um inside of the people who want to

1777
01:45:16,120 --> 01:45:18,800
Speaker 1: maintain the status quo, you have, you know, it's like

1778
01:45:19,320 --> 01:45:25,800
Speaker 1: like basically for for three different options. Basically, so there's

1779
01:45:25,880 --> 01:45:27,800
Speaker 1: very similar numbers of people who either want to like

1780
01:45:28,479 --> 01:45:31,120
Speaker 1: decide the formal status of Taiwan, like is an independent

1781
01:45:31,160 --> 01:45:32,519
Speaker 1: country as a part of China that if you want

1782
01:45:32,520 --> 01:45:34,400
Speaker 1: to kick it down the road. Some of them want

1783
01:45:34,400 --> 01:45:36,559
Speaker 1: to keep the status quo indefinitely, and some of them

1784
01:45:36,600 --> 01:45:39,840
Speaker 1: want to move towards full independence like later on. But

1785
01:45:40,560 --> 01:45:45,240
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly what people want in Taiwan is for nothing to happen. Now,

1786
01:45:45,600 --> 01:45:47,599
Speaker 1: if this were a saying in rational world, that would

1787
01:45:47,600 --> 01:45:49,439
Speaker 1: be the end of the episode, right, Taiwan doesn't want

1788
01:45:49,439 --> 01:45:51,679
Speaker 1: to be ruled by China, Like okay, well that's okay,

1789
01:45:51,720 --> 01:45:54,000
Speaker 1: that's the right, they have the right self determination. That's it,

1790
01:45:54,280 --> 01:45:56,640
Speaker 1: case closed, end of story. It literally doesn't matter what

1791
01:45:57,120 --> 01:46:00,880
Speaker 1: the Chinese government thinks about whether it's should control Taiwan

1792
01:46:00,960 --> 01:46:03,000
Speaker 1: because again, Taiwan doesn't want to be rolled by China.

1793
01:46:04,000 --> 01:46:07,960
Speaker 1: And because a British person, I maybe I maybe you

1794
01:46:07,960 --> 01:46:10,720
Speaker 1: ought to like not contribute further to that discussion. Yeah,

1795
01:46:11,360 --> 01:46:12,960
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, and I mean, you know, there's

1796
01:46:12,960 --> 01:46:15,960
Speaker 1: there's there's this whole thing that exists right where when

1797
01:46:16,040 --> 01:46:18,200
Speaker 1: when you when you force your role on another population,

1798
01:46:18,280 --> 01:46:22,799
Speaker 1: it is called imperialism considered to be bad and anyway

1799
01:46:22,800 --> 01:46:25,479
Speaker 1: and everything is it's still bad even if everyone inside

1800
01:46:25,520 --> 01:46:27,960
Speaker 1: the imperial power thinks that it's good. Like if every

1801
01:46:28,000 --> 01:46:30,080
Speaker 1: person in the US suddenly decided tomorrow but they wanted

1802
01:46:30,120 --> 01:46:32,840
Speaker 1: to invade Cuba, like, it wouldn't make it morally right

1803
01:46:33,000 --> 01:46:35,280
Speaker 1: because people in Cuba don't want to people by the US,

1804
01:46:35,760 --> 01:46:38,960
Speaker 1: which we've done before. But it's true. Yeah, this is

1805
01:46:39,040 --> 01:46:40,960
Speaker 1: partially why I picked Cuba as example, because we really

1806
01:46:41,000 --> 01:46:43,880
Speaker 1: we did this, We we really did like kill an

1807
01:46:43,960 --> 01:46:47,240
Speaker 1: enormous number of people trying did yeah, based on both

1808
01:46:47,280 --> 01:46:50,720
Speaker 1: ship that people made up and portrayed as news, that

1809
01:46:51,200 --> 01:46:55,800
Speaker 1: was the best speculation. Yeah. But you know, as we

1810
01:46:55,840 --> 01:46:57,040
Speaker 1: can tell by the fact that the U. S Has

1811
01:46:57,080 --> 01:46:59,839
Speaker 1: invaded Cuba, we do not live in a saying irrational.

1812
01:47:00,200 --> 01:47:02,360
Speaker 1: We live in hell. And this means that I have

1813
01:47:02,400 --> 01:47:04,639
Speaker 1: a talk about a bunch of just absolutely bullshit arguments

1814
01:47:04,680 --> 01:47:07,280
Speaker 1: that a bunch of nationalist dip ships made up justify imperialism.

1815
01:47:09,680 --> 01:47:12,280
Speaker 1: So all right, this is where we start going into

1816
01:47:12,320 --> 01:47:15,840
Speaker 1: Taiwanese history. Um So, the starting point of any actual

1817
01:47:15,920 --> 01:47:18,120
Speaker 1: history of Taiwan that's worth a single ship is Taiwan's

1818
01:47:18,160 --> 01:47:22,240
Speaker 1: indigenous population. And it is incredibly important to understand from

1819
01:47:22,240 --> 01:47:26,479
Speaker 1: the outset. The indigenous population of Taiwan is not Chinese.

1820
01:47:26,640 --> 01:47:29,479
Speaker 1: They are not ethnically Chinese, they are not linguistically Chinese,

1821
01:47:29,479 --> 01:47:31,640
Speaker 1: they are not culturally Chinese. They are not any of

1822
01:47:31,720 --> 01:47:34,280
Speaker 1: these things. But literally any definition of the word Chinese,

1823
01:47:34,320 --> 01:47:38,640
Speaker 1: you can imagine they are not Chinese. Um this, this population,

1824
01:47:38,760 --> 01:47:43,040
Speaker 1: this indigenous population is austron Nesian. It's it's an Austronesian

1825
01:47:43,080 --> 01:47:46,200
Speaker 1: people are population stretches basically from like it's it's an

1826
01:47:46,280 --> 01:47:50,080
Speaker 1: enormous screw of people across specific stretches from like Madagascar

1827
01:47:50,120 --> 01:47:53,439
Speaker 1: all the way to like Hawaii, and that that that

1828
01:47:53,680 --> 01:47:56,479
Speaker 1: those are the people who who who who live on

1829
01:47:56,520 --> 01:47:59,559
Speaker 1: Taiwan and have lived on Taiwan for six thousand years.

1830
01:48:02,560 --> 01:48:06,120
Speaker 1: And you know, if if you read like CCP accounts

1831
01:48:06,120 --> 01:48:08,960
Speaker 1: of Taiwanese history, right, you'll see them they they won't

1832
01:48:09,000 --> 01:48:10,519
Speaker 1: talk about the fact that there again there's been an

1833
01:48:10,520 --> 01:48:14,160
Speaker 1: indigenous population that has lived in Taiwan for six thousand years. Um,

1834
01:48:14,280 --> 01:48:16,240
Speaker 1: what you'll see references to you are like in like

1835
01:48:16,320 --> 01:48:19,280
Speaker 1: the Suiti and like Sung dynasties, people like sent troops

1836
01:48:19,320 --> 01:48:22,120
Speaker 1: to Taiwan, and then the people will be like, oh yeah,

1837
01:48:22,240 --> 01:48:25,880
Speaker 1: no they they they they they governed Taiwan and they

1838
01:48:25,960 --> 01:48:27,519
Speaker 1: ruled it. It was a part of China and like

1839
01:48:27,560 --> 01:48:30,360
Speaker 1: ancient times, like this is all bullshit. Like basically what

1840
01:48:30,400 --> 01:48:33,479
Speaker 1: would happen is periodically, every like a few hundred years,

1841
01:48:34,080 --> 01:48:35,880
Speaker 1: some Chinese leader would be like we should send some

1842
01:48:35,960 --> 01:48:37,680
Speaker 1: people to that island and they went there and we're

1843
01:48:37,720 --> 01:48:41,960
Speaker 1: like this sucks, and they all left, but you know, yeah,

1844
01:48:42,000 --> 01:48:43,439
Speaker 1: and and and and you know, like okay, so like

1845
01:48:43,479 --> 01:48:45,200
Speaker 1: these guys they're like okay, this thing, this thing sucks.

1846
01:48:45,280 --> 01:48:48,200
Speaker 1: They leave and the indigenous population continues going like you know,

1847
01:48:48,320 --> 01:48:51,000
Speaker 1: goes back to dude, like their normal thing, right, Like

1848
01:48:51,120 --> 01:48:54,000
Speaker 1: this is the the the actual history of who has

1849
01:48:54,040 --> 01:48:56,960
Speaker 1: controlled Taiwan for almost this entire history is that it

1850
01:48:57,000 --> 01:49:00,519
Speaker 1: was controlled by sutigenous population. But in in sixteen twenty four,

1851
01:49:01,280 --> 01:49:05,559
Speaker 1: colonial powers start getting more involved and the Dutch sees

1852
01:49:05,640 --> 01:49:08,160
Speaker 1: control of Taiwan. Well, okay, so the Dutch taking most

1853
01:49:08,160 --> 01:49:10,080
Speaker 1: of Taiwan. There's a part of Taiwan in the north

1854
01:49:10,120 --> 01:49:13,920
Speaker 1: that's ruled about the Spanish, and they do like a

1855
01:49:14,000 --> 01:49:17,439
Speaker 1: bunch of just like horrible, like unspeakable crimes to the

1856
01:49:17,479 --> 01:49:22,320
Speaker 1: indigenous population before they ran out by like basically like

1857
01:49:22,439 --> 01:49:26,920
Speaker 1: a fragment of the dying like Chinese Ming dynasty. And

1858
01:49:27,040 --> 01:49:30,800
Speaker 1: so yeah, so in two this guy whose name okay, so,

1859
01:49:30,880 --> 01:49:32,280
Speaker 1: she has like a name that he's known by in

1860
01:49:32,320 --> 01:49:34,479
Speaker 1: the West that I genuinely have no idea how to pronounce,

1861
01:49:34,560 --> 01:49:37,479
Speaker 1: because this the name that he's known by in the West,

1862
01:49:37,560 --> 01:49:40,160
Speaker 1: I think is a Dutch translation of his title and

1863
01:49:40,240 --> 01:49:44,080
Speaker 1: not like his name his baffling I okay, Like, I

1864
01:49:44,240 --> 01:49:47,720
Speaker 1: think the Mandarin version of his title is something like

1865
01:49:49,280 --> 01:49:54,680
Speaker 1: shingy h. The Dutch somehow turned that into what I'm

1866
01:49:54,720 --> 01:49:59,960
Speaker 1: going to interpret as coachinga like it's baffling, it's a

1867
01:50:00,120 --> 01:50:03,200
Speaker 1: make any sense. Their transliteration is is nonsense. But yeah,

1868
01:50:03,200 --> 01:50:05,200
Speaker 1: So there's this guy. You'll you'll see you'll see his

1869
01:50:05,320 --> 01:50:09,879
Speaker 1: name written as like coaching u um, and he's described

1870
01:50:09,920 --> 01:50:12,200
Speaker 1: alternately as sort of like you know, You'll see some

1871
01:50:12,240 --> 01:50:13,800
Speaker 1: descriptions of him, which will be like he is a

1872
01:50:13,920 --> 01:50:17,960
Speaker 1: loyalist ming general um and that's kind of true, like

1873
01:50:18,240 --> 01:50:21,439
Speaker 1: sort of. You will also see descriptions of him that

1874
01:50:21,560 --> 01:50:23,960
Speaker 1: call him a pirate warlord, which is like also true.

1875
01:50:25,160 --> 01:50:28,320
Speaker 1: And you will also see nationalists like Chinese nationalist celebrate

1876
01:50:28,400 --> 01:50:30,720
Speaker 1: him as like an anti colonial hero and call him

1877
01:50:30,800 --> 01:50:33,040
Speaker 1: like running out the Dutchess like the liberation of Taiwan

1878
01:50:33,120 --> 01:50:37,640
Speaker 1: and like that's not true, um, like, which this is

1879
01:50:37,720 --> 01:50:42,599
Speaker 1: not true, Like I've I've I've seen people like from

1880
01:50:42,680 --> 01:50:45,559
Speaker 1: Taiwan like who do stuff with the digenospopulation like I've

1881
01:50:45,560 --> 01:50:47,360
Speaker 1: I've seen them call I've seen them call him by

1882
01:50:47,800 --> 01:50:52,599
Speaker 1: Taiwan's Christopher Columbus. So this is how this is going. Um. Wait,

1883
01:50:52,720 --> 01:50:55,720
Speaker 1: so we're saying that changing from one colonial power to

1884
01:50:55,760 --> 01:51:00,479
Speaker 1: another it is not liberation. No, it turns out and fascinating. Yeah,

1885
01:51:00,760 --> 01:51:03,439
Speaker 1: you can tell it's not that not liberation because you know,

1886
01:51:03,560 --> 01:51:05,080
Speaker 1: like a lot of people like actually, like you know,

1887
01:51:05,280 --> 01:51:07,680
Speaker 1: do believe that, like, hey, it's gonna be less bad

1888
01:51:07,760 --> 01:51:09,120
Speaker 1: for us under this guy than it is going to

1889
01:51:09,160 --> 01:51:11,080
Speaker 1: be on for the Dutch. It is kind of less bad.

1890
01:51:11,120 --> 01:51:12,439
Speaker 1: Like there are a bunch of indigenous people who go

1891
01:51:12,520 --> 01:51:15,880
Speaker 1: who fight with uh coaching gun like you know, and

1892
01:51:16,000 --> 01:51:18,640
Speaker 1: he he helps they helped him defeat the Dutch. But

1893
01:51:19,200 --> 01:51:22,040
Speaker 1: what what he does instead of like you know, freeing

1894
01:51:22,200 --> 01:51:24,840
Speaker 1: the people there is he maintains the Dutch colonial system

1895
01:51:25,200 --> 01:51:27,639
Speaker 1: while basically just seizing Taiwan to run his court from

1896
01:51:28,960 --> 01:51:31,519
Speaker 1: and you know, like Dutch colonial rule. Okay, so like

1897
01:51:31,560 --> 01:51:33,760
Speaker 1: Dutch colonial rule is over, but what if we're placed

1898
01:51:33,800 --> 01:51:36,240
Speaker 1: by is the rule of an independent pirate warlord state.

1899
01:51:37,360 --> 01:51:40,040
Speaker 1: It sounds fun, I mean, it kind of is, like

1900
01:51:40,560 --> 01:51:42,200
Speaker 1: I mean, there's this whole so okay. So the kind

1901
01:51:42,200 --> 01:51:45,680
Speaker 1: of background of this is that, like the Hunters, the

1902
01:51:45,720 --> 01:51:48,479
Speaker 1: Mean Dynasty is falling apart. The Mean Dynasty had ruled

1903
01:51:48,560 --> 01:51:51,840
Speaker 1: China since they ever threw the Mongols basically, and but

1904
01:51:52,000 --> 01:51:54,439
Speaker 1: like they're they're imploding. There's a bunch of revolutions going on.

1905
01:51:55,320 --> 01:51:58,200
Speaker 1: There they are in the process of getting eventually getting

1906
01:51:58,280 --> 01:52:02,200
Speaker 1: knocked off by um the Ching dynasty, who a group

1907
01:52:02,240 --> 01:52:04,320
Speaker 1: of people from Manchuria who we will be getting to

1908
01:52:04,520 --> 01:52:06,840
Speaker 1: in a second. Yeah, this guy is like technically a

1909
01:52:06,920 --> 01:52:08,960
Speaker 1: main general, but he's sort of not and he's he's

1910
01:52:08,960 --> 01:52:10,600
Speaker 1: doing this sort of pilot warlord stuff. But then he

1911
01:52:10,680 --> 01:52:13,360
Speaker 1: like he sets up like his own dynasty, like very

1912
01:52:13,400 --> 01:52:18,200
Speaker 1: short lived dynasty there. And this is the first time

1913
01:52:18,400 --> 01:52:21,439
Speaker 1: that there's been like actual political control of Taiwan by

1914
01:52:21,479 --> 01:52:23,960
Speaker 1: any kind of Chinese entity, right like the like the

1915
01:52:24,200 --> 01:52:27,320
Speaker 1: weird dipshit armies that like China was sending in like

1916
01:52:27,400 --> 01:52:29,280
Speaker 1: the Song dynasty, Like they don't they don't actually like

1917
01:52:29,320 --> 01:52:31,000
Speaker 1: set up a government, right, Like they're just kind of

1918
01:52:31,000 --> 01:52:32,800
Speaker 1: there forbid they leave. This is the first time like

1919
01:52:32,840 --> 01:52:34,960
Speaker 1: they actually conquered the island and rule it as like

1920
01:52:35,520 --> 01:52:37,040
Speaker 1: a political enger. And even then it's kind of a

1921
01:52:37,120 --> 01:52:38,800
Speaker 1: half as conquest, like there's a lot of places they

1922
01:52:38,880 --> 01:52:41,160
Speaker 1: kind of just like they're just like, yeah, okay, we're

1923
01:52:41,160 --> 01:52:45,639
Speaker 1: just not gonna bother with this. But yeah, and you know, again,

1924
01:52:45,680 --> 01:52:48,120
Speaker 1: like this is the first time this has happened, and

1925
01:52:48,200 --> 01:52:50,759
Speaker 1: it's not like the Chinese state, right it's a pirate,

1926
01:52:50,840 --> 01:52:54,120
Speaker 1: wal Mart and his descendants get like knocked off by

1927
01:52:54,160 --> 01:52:58,080
Speaker 1: the Chain dynasty in sixteen three, and this is the

1928
01:52:58,080 --> 01:53:01,080
Speaker 1: first time like a real Chinese government has controlled Taiwan

1929
01:53:02,160 --> 01:53:05,760
Speaker 1: um because bye bye bye bye bye. Sixteen eighty three,

1930
01:53:06,000 --> 01:53:08,960
Speaker 1: the dynasty has finished taking overall of China or all

1931
01:53:09,040 --> 01:53:10,839
Speaker 1: all of what used to be like the main dynasty

1932
01:53:10,840 --> 01:53:14,519
Speaker 1: in China. And this is the period that Chinese nationals

1933
01:53:14,600 --> 01:53:17,280
Speaker 1: appoint to and say like no, no, no, really really

1934
01:53:17,360 --> 01:53:20,160
Speaker 1: hold on, hold on, uh, Taiwan actually is part of

1935
01:53:20,280 --> 01:53:23,400
Speaker 1: China because we conquered it in like sixteen eighty three,

1936
01:53:24,920 --> 01:53:29,800
Speaker 1: which you know, okay, yeah, yeah, this is this is

1937
01:53:29,840 --> 01:53:32,600
Speaker 1: a part of Taiwan's China's ancient times. Yeah that this

1938
01:53:32,640 --> 01:53:34,880
Speaker 1: place we conquered in sixteen eighty three, which ignores also

1939
01:53:34,920 --> 01:53:38,559
Speaker 1: again the previous five thousand, four hundred years where Taiwan

1940
01:53:38,600 --> 01:53:43,240
Speaker 1: was rule by the insdigenous people. It's it's baffling nationalist

1941
01:53:43,280 --> 01:53:46,760
Speaker 1: brain words stuff, yep. That has worked historically for other

1942
01:53:46,800 --> 01:53:48,920
Speaker 1: countries not to be this one and the one I'm from.

1943
01:53:49,040 --> 01:53:51,320
Speaker 1: But make it right. Yeah, well, and then you'll you'll

1944
01:53:51,320 --> 01:53:53,439
Speaker 1: get people arguing this is like well, how like like

1945
01:53:53,520 --> 01:53:55,960
Speaker 1: how how is this different? From the U S. It's like, well,

1946
01:53:56,040 --> 01:53:58,760
Speaker 1: here's the thing. I am a leftist and I am

1947
01:53:58,800 --> 01:54:01,160
Speaker 1: capable of understanding the multiple things can be bad at

1948
01:54:01,200 --> 01:54:03,920
Speaker 1: the same time, especially when they're bad in the same way.

1949
01:54:04,960 --> 01:54:07,360
Speaker 1: Like wow, hey, maybe these are all settler qualities. We

1950
01:54:07,400 --> 01:54:11,679
Speaker 1: should destroy them, Okay, But we should actually talk about

1951
01:54:11,680 --> 01:54:14,880
Speaker 1: the Chin dynasty a bit, because a lot of what

1952
01:54:15,600 --> 01:54:19,240
Speaker 1: Chinese nationalism draws from is the sort of imperial expansion

1953
01:54:19,280 --> 01:54:20,840
Speaker 1: of the Chin Chinese. Even though the Ching are the

1954
01:54:20,920 --> 01:54:24,160
Speaker 1: Ching are not like a Han Chinese dynasty. Um, they're

1955
01:54:24,439 --> 01:54:28,320
Speaker 1: like ethnically they're from a different ethnic group. But yeah,

1956
01:54:28,400 --> 01:54:31,320
Speaker 1: I mean it's said, it's it's the like the the

1957
01:54:31,439 --> 01:54:33,920
Speaker 1: Ching dynasty is a Manchou dynasty ruled by the people

1958
01:54:34,120 --> 01:54:38,160
Speaker 1: like the Manchin cendamnentaria. But I think like insofar as

1959
01:54:38,200 --> 01:54:39,920
Speaker 1: people think about the Chin dynasty, they tend to think

1960
01:54:39,920 --> 01:54:41,640
Speaker 1: about like the Late Chain dynasty Like this is like,

1961
01:54:41,720 --> 01:54:45,000
Speaker 1: you know, like the eight hundred Chang dynasty is a disaster, right,

1962
01:54:45,120 --> 01:54:47,680
Speaker 1: Like they lose the Opium Wars, they could beat by Japan.

1963
01:54:47,880 --> 01:54:50,040
Speaker 1: This is the whole sort of century humiliation thing has

1964
01:54:50,080 --> 01:54:52,760
Speaker 1: a lot to do with like Ching imperial decline. But

1965
01:54:54,080 --> 01:54:58,480
Speaker 1: you know that that's like the eighteen hundreds Chin, the

1966
01:54:58,640 --> 01:55:01,640
Speaker 1: seventeen hundreds change actually in the sixty cent unders Chang

1967
01:55:01,840 --> 01:55:06,120
Speaker 1: is an incredibly dynamic and you know, incredibly militant and

1968
01:55:06,160 --> 01:55:09,800
Speaker 1: expansionist empire. Um here, here's I'm gonna I'm gonna read

1969
01:55:09,800 --> 01:55:13,640
Speaker 1: a passage from the book Taiwan's Imagine Geographies. Having annexed

1970
01:55:13,680 --> 01:55:16,440
Speaker 1: Taiwan in sixteen eighty four, the Ching turned its attention

1971
01:55:16,480 --> 01:55:21,080
Speaker 1: to Central Asia, pacifying quote quote unquote pacifying the Mongols,

1972
01:55:21,120 --> 01:55:23,640
Speaker 1: and bringing eastern Turkistan and lass of the capital of

1973
01:55:23,680 --> 01:55:27,280
Speaker 1: Tibet under Chin rule. The Ching further expanded its control

1974
01:55:27,480 --> 01:55:31,080
Speaker 1: in south and southwest China, subjugating various non Chinese peoples.

1975
01:55:31,120 --> 01:55:34,040
Speaker 1: Of this reason to Ching domination at its height in

1976
01:55:34,120 --> 01:55:40,440
Speaker 1: the eighteenth century, Ching influence extended into Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Thailand, Burman, Nepal,

1977
01:55:40,880 --> 01:55:43,160
Speaker 1: all of which came under the suicerenity of the Empire.

1978
01:55:43,640 --> 01:55:46,200
Speaker 1: By eighteen sixty, the Ching had achieved the incredible feat

1979
01:55:46,200 --> 01:55:49,520
Speaker 1: of doubling the size of the empire's territory, bringing various

1980
01:55:49,600 --> 01:55:52,600
Speaker 1: non Chinese frontier people under its rule. The impact of

1981
01:55:52,720 --> 01:55:56,680
Speaker 1: changing expansionism was thus was thus tremendous as the chain

1982
01:55:56,800 --> 01:55:59,800
Speaker 1: not only redefined the territorial boundaries of China, but also

1983
01:56:00,160 --> 01:56:03,800
Speaker 1: refashioned China as a multi ethnic realm as a multi

1984
01:56:03,840 --> 01:56:07,840
Speaker 1: ethnic realm, shifting the traditional border between Chinese Hua and

1985
01:56:07,960 --> 01:56:12,720
Speaker 1: Barbarian Ye. In doing so, the Ching created an image

1986
01:56:12,720 --> 01:56:15,160
Speaker 1: of China that is vastly different from that of the Ming.

1987
01:56:17,480 --> 01:56:20,120
Speaker 1: And I think I think it's really important to understand

1988
01:56:20,880 --> 01:56:23,880
Speaker 1: what kinds of empire this is, which is to say

1989
01:56:23,920 --> 01:56:27,680
Speaker 1: that the Change dynasty is an incredibly brutal colonial power

1990
01:56:27,840 --> 01:56:31,120
Speaker 1: even like by the standards of like that's like, you know, okay,

1991
01:56:31,360 --> 01:56:35,160
Speaker 1: like all of all, like the all the the okay,

1992
01:56:35,440 --> 01:56:38,320
Speaker 1: Chinese dynastic history is not pretty right, like this is

1993
01:56:38,440 --> 01:56:40,440
Speaker 1: you know, it's an empire, right, it's an empire. It's

1994
01:56:40,520 --> 01:56:42,760
Speaker 1: ruled by an emperor. It kind of sucks, like it's

1995
01:56:42,800 --> 01:56:44,920
Speaker 1: not it's not good per se. But like even by

1996
01:56:44,920 --> 01:56:49,000
Speaker 1: the standards of Chinaina Qing are incredibly militants, an incredibly

1997
01:56:49,000 --> 01:56:51,680
Speaker 1: expansionist um. For example, like shing Jong, which which is

1998
01:56:51,720 --> 01:56:54,360
Speaker 1: a province that the Ching conquered, so it used to

1999
01:56:54,360 --> 01:56:56,520
Speaker 1: be inhabited by a Mongol speaking people until the Ching

2000
01:56:56,640 --> 01:56:59,600
Speaker 1: just exterterminated them all and settled the entire land with

2001
01:57:00,280 --> 01:57:03,800
Speaker 1: with Han and weaker like I think groups, and you know,

2002
01:57:04,240 --> 01:57:07,160
Speaker 1: this history points to something that's important to understand what

2003
01:57:07,280 --> 01:57:09,240
Speaker 1: we talk about China, Taiwan in the U S. Which

2004
01:57:09,280 --> 01:57:11,839
Speaker 1: is that what we're talking about is three settler qualities.

2005
01:57:13,080 --> 01:57:15,480
Speaker 1: And I think people, you know, might be like, wait,

2006
01:57:15,520 --> 01:57:18,000
Speaker 1: what do you mean China's settler colony? And I'm just

2007
01:57:18,040 --> 01:57:22,640
Speaker 1: gonna read this passage from the book Sovereignty, Frontiers the Possibility,

2008
01:57:23,040 --> 01:57:27,000
Speaker 1: which is by Julia Evans, Anna Genevis, Alexander Riley, and

2009
01:57:27,080 --> 01:57:29,400
Speaker 1: Patrick Wolf. And and yes, that is that Patrick Wolf,

2010
01:57:29,440 --> 01:57:32,480
Speaker 1: who was like was basically the godfather of settler colonial

2011
01:57:32,480 --> 01:57:35,120
Speaker 1: studies and one of the most important like academics are

2012
01:57:35,120 --> 01:57:37,800
Speaker 1: trying of like in terms of like advancity, annalysis of cetera, colonialism,

2013
01:57:37,880 --> 01:57:41,520
Speaker 1: like the Palestinian conflict. Here's here here, here's what he

2014
01:57:41,520 --> 01:57:43,480
Speaker 1: has to say about China. And this is kind of

2015
01:57:43,520 --> 01:57:45,440
Speaker 1: a long passage, but like, I want to include an

2016
01:57:45,440 --> 01:57:47,560
Speaker 1: explanation of what settler colonialism is because I've kind of

2017
01:57:47,600 --> 01:57:51,440
Speaker 1: just been tossing it around analytically. The case of Palestine

2018
01:57:51,480 --> 01:57:54,680
Speaker 1: reveals that the relationship between the external and internal dimensions

2019
01:57:54,720 --> 01:57:59,360
Speaker 1: of sovereignty is not a priori but contingent. Settler colonization

2020
01:57:59,480 --> 01:58:04,080
Speaker 1: converts external into internal, rendering indigenous sovereignties either non existent

2021
01:58:04,160 --> 01:58:07,920
Speaker 1: or domesticated. Annexation does the same thing, only it is illegal.

2022
01:58:08,360 --> 01:58:11,600
Speaker 1: The difference again is sovereignty. To annex is to practice

2023
01:58:11,640 --> 01:58:16,640
Speaker 1: settler colonialism in sovereign territory. Thus, the frontier is aligned

2024
01:58:16,720 --> 01:58:19,800
Speaker 1: in time as well as in space. Spatially, the frontier

2025
01:58:19,880 --> 01:58:24,360
Speaker 1: two limits unconquered native territory. Temporally, it marks the conversion

2026
01:58:24,400 --> 01:58:27,880
Speaker 1: of outside into inside. It renders externality a thing of

2027
01:58:27,960 --> 01:58:32,480
Speaker 1: the past in the global conquest of settler colonialism. Therefore,

2028
01:58:32,880 --> 01:58:35,960
Speaker 1: the internal and external dimensions represent the state of play,

2029
01:58:36,040 --> 01:58:40,640
Speaker 1: quote unquote. The ultimate prize is state formation with internationally

2030
01:58:40,720 --> 01:58:44,880
Speaker 1: recognized territorial sovereignty. Once the settler takeover as complete, the

2031
01:58:45,000 --> 01:58:48,560
Speaker 1: native realm becomes a thing of the past, superseded and detoxified,

2032
01:58:48,760 --> 01:58:52,640
Speaker 1: reduced to persisting in the settler's terms. Since in the

2033
01:58:52,680 --> 01:58:56,120
Speaker 1: case of Palestine, this process remains incomplete, the situation can

2034
01:58:56,160 --> 01:59:00,000
Speaker 1: still go either or potentially any way. At the international

2035
01:59:00,000 --> 01:59:02,800
Speaker 1: a level. This uncertainty is reflected in the ambivalent status

2036
01:59:02,880 --> 01:59:06,880
Speaker 1: of Palace Indian sovereignty, which remains simultaneously both acknowledged and

2037
01:59:07,000 --> 01:59:10,640
Speaker 1: questioned locally, The stage involved in the resolution of such

2038
01:59:11,320 --> 01:59:15,160
Speaker 1: international uncertainties could not be higher. Tibet represents a case

2039
01:59:15,200 --> 01:59:20,200
Speaker 1: in point. Despite significant informal deference to Tibet's national separateness,

2040
01:59:20,840 --> 01:59:23,720
Speaker 1: its incorporation into the People's Republic of China is not

2041
01:59:23,840 --> 01:59:27,560
Speaker 1: seriously questioned. At the diplomatic level, Tibetan representation at the

2042
01:59:27,640 --> 01:59:31,480
Speaker 1: United Nations remains unimaginable. Yet even Tibetans might count their

2043
01:59:31,480 --> 01:59:34,920
Speaker 1: blessings when they compare their situation to that of Weakers, who,

2044
01:59:35,200 --> 01:59:38,600
Speaker 1: like them, are being officially colonized by Han settlers in

2045
01:59:38,640 --> 01:59:41,880
Speaker 1: the so called autonomous region called shing Jong, a Chinese

2046
01:59:41,920 --> 01:59:44,800
Speaker 1: appellation that could have been scripted in sixteenth century Europe.

2047
01:59:45,080 --> 01:59:49,800
Speaker 1: It means new land, being so much more firmly domesticated

2048
01:59:49,880 --> 01:59:52,960
Speaker 1: within the Chinese state. However, weaker sovereignty remains in vote

2049
01:59:53,000 --> 01:59:55,360
Speaker 1: from global concern. Now. Now obviously, okay, this is written

2050
01:59:55,400 --> 02:00:00,000
Speaker 1: before like shing Jong became like a global news store.

2051
02:00:00,240 --> 02:00:06,520
Speaker 1: And also I I I question wolves translation of the

2052
02:00:06,640 --> 02:00:08,560
Speaker 1: word a little bit, like I think, I think new

2053
02:00:08,600 --> 02:00:12,800
Speaker 1: Frontier is probably a slightly better translation. But yeah, like

2054
02:00:13,240 --> 02:00:15,680
Speaker 1: you can see what's at work here, right, Like wolves

2055
02:00:15,800 --> 02:00:20,280
Speaker 1: argument is that like yeah, like like China is running

2056
02:00:20,320 --> 02:00:23,880
Speaker 1: two settler qualities, like the internal status of which is

2057
02:00:24,000 --> 02:00:29,800
Speaker 1: like even more internationally fucked than like most other settler colonies,

2058
02:00:30,320 --> 02:00:35,480
Speaker 1: which is incredibly grim. Like yeah, I think we don't.

2059
02:00:35,640 --> 02:00:38,200
Speaker 1: I don't know why we were so we've been so

2060
02:00:38,320 --> 02:00:44,360
Speaker 1: slow to see selling colonialism and these contiguous empires like here. Yeah,

2061
02:00:44,400 --> 02:00:45,920
Speaker 1: I mean I think part of what's happening here, like

2062
02:00:45,960 --> 02:00:47,400
Speaker 1: you know, okay, Like I think there's sort of a

2063
02:00:47,400 --> 02:00:49,120
Speaker 1: different dynamic with looking at this with Russia, but I

2064
02:00:49,160 --> 02:00:54,320
Speaker 1: think with China, it's like people are just like it's

2065
02:00:54,360 --> 02:00:57,480
Speaker 1: really really hard to get people to understand that colonialism

2066
02:00:57,520 --> 02:00:59,720
Speaker 1: and imperialism are things that like not that like non

2067
02:00:59,800 --> 02:01:03,320
Speaker 1: white people can do, yes, and especially especially like this,

2068
02:01:03,520 --> 02:01:04,840
Speaker 1: you know. And I think it goes back to the

2069
02:01:04,880 --> 02:01:07,440
Speaker 1: sort of like Chan dynasy discussion, right, which is that like, yeah,

2070
02:01:07,520 --> 02:01:09,880
Speaker 1: you know, the like the way that people on the

2071
02:01:09,960 --> 02:01:12,440
Speaker 1: left understand the Ching dynasty is do the sort of

2072
02:01:12,520 --> 02:01:15,480
Speaker 1: nationalist lens looking at like and so they miss the

2073
02:01:15,520 --> 02:01:17,840
Speaker 1: whole part where they're doing all the settler colony stuff.

2074
02:01:17,880 --> 02:01:19,680
Speaker 1: But like what happens to them basically is that, like,

2075
02:01:20,320 --> 02:01:22,320
Speaker 1: you know, it's like they're there. It's kind of like

2076
02:01:22,400 --> 02:01:25,760
Speaker 1: the Ottomans, right, We're like their empire suddenly runs into

2077
02:01:25,920 --> 02:01:29,960
Speaker 1: like newer, better, more violence and more efficient empires. But

2078
02:01:30,040 --> 02:01:33,080
Speaker 1: like it doesn't mean that like they worked also empires.

2079
02:01:33,800 --> 02:01:38,640
Speaker 1: Like it's yeah, and then when people do work that

2080
02:01:38,800 --> 02:01:41,360
Speaker 1: out sometimes, like people and when we talk about like

2081
02:01:41,680 --> 02:01:45,480
Speaker 1: settler clonism in the US, sometimes like when folks have

2082
02:01:45,560 --> 02:01:48,840
Speaker 1: forced to retreat from the first position and that like

2083
02:01:49,000 --> 02:01:50,960
Speaker 1: that the US is not a settler quality, they will

2084
02:01:51,000 --> 02:01:54,240
Speaker 1: then fall back on, well, they're indigenous empires beforehand, as

2085
02:01:54,280 --> 02:01:57,920
Speaker 1: if that somehow justifies Yeah, it's like it does not right,

2086
02:01:58,040 --> 02:02:01,360
Speaker 1: and like you know, like and and I think it's

2087
02:02:01,400 --> 02:02:02,920
Speaker 1: the thing that tibet to where it's like, yeah, the

2088
02:02:04,440 --> 02:02:07,480
Speaker 1: pre existing Tibetan government was not good, Like I'm not

2089
02:02:07,640 --> 02:02:09,880
Speaker 1: I'm not going to defend like that government. It sucks.

2090
02:02:10,440 --> 02:02:13,200
Speaker 1: I I would also point out that the whole we're

2091
02:02:13,200 --> 02:02:14,720
Speaker 1: going to stop the slave trade thing is one of

2092
02:02:14,760 --> 02:02:17,120
Speaker 1: the things explicitly in in the in the Tree that

2093
02:02:17,160 --> 02:02:18,760
Speaker 1: Decide of the Conference of Berlin. That was the thing

2094
02:02:18,800 --> 02:02:20,760
Speaker 1: that they claimed that that like that that was the

2095
02:02:20,800 --> 02:02:22,760
Speaker 1: thing that the European powers claimed they were doing when

2096
02:02:22,760 --> 02:02:25,520
Speaker 1: they invaded Africa, so like when they split Africa, but

2097
02:02:25,600 --> 02:02:28,280
Speaker 1: between the Clune of Powers, so like you know, okay,

2098
02:02:29,520 --> 02:02:31,280
Speaker 1: I mean also it's you know this this is getting

2099
02:02:31,280 --> 02:02:32,880
Speaker 1: slightly off topic, but it's also worth noting that like

2100
02:02:33,000 --> 02:02:36,560
Speaker 1: there wasn't there was actually a communist movement like in

2101
02:02:36,600 --> 02:02:39,320
Speaker 1: Tibet that wasn't the CCP, and the CCP killed them all.

2102
02:02:39,840 --> 02:02:43,120
Speaker 1: So that's great and fun. That's never happened before with

2103
02:02:43,240 --> 02:02:47,960
Speaker 1: ttalitarian communist pass Yeah, it's it's gonna happen again. The

2104
02:02:48,040 --> 02:02:50,640
Speaker 1: sort of I think the stakes of what's happening here,

2105
02:02:50,800 --> 02:02:54,560
Speaker 1: I think become more clear when you understand that, like

2106
02:02:55,280 --> 02:02:58,120
Speaker 1: you like the US and trying to to like two

2107
02:02:58,160 --> 02:03:02,880
Speaker 1: different extents, right, like I don't know, like China has

2108
02:03:02,960 --> 02:03:04,960
Speaker 1: parts there, like there are parts of China where it's

2109
02:03:04,960 --> 02:03:07,160
Speaker 1: like very hard, like it's not a settler state. It's

2110
02:03:07,160 --> 02:03:09,120
Speaker 1: just like their states, but there are part of definitely

2111
02:03:09,120 --> 02:03:10,640
Speaker 1: are a settlers state. And there's the U S which

2112
02:03:10,680 --> 02:03:13,840
Speaker 1: is like entirely a settler state, and then Taiwan is

2113
02:03:13,920 --> 02:03:18,040
Speaker 1: also to a settler state, although it's like post independence

2114
02:03:18,040 --> 02:03:19,720
Speaker 1: Taiwan is at least violence of them, which is like

2115
02:03:20,360 --> 02:03:23,560
Speaker 1: not like a, I don't know, you're not winning much

2116
02:03:23,600 --> 02:03:26,440
Speaker 1: of a price by being less violent than China in

2117
02:03:26,520 --> 02:03:30,040
Speaker 1: the US, but like good count between those two. Yeah,

2118
02:03:31,000 --> 02:03:32,560
Speaker 1: but you know, but but but I think that this

2119
02:03:32,600 --> 02:03:35,240
Speaker 1: brings us back to like the Chin the Ching coccupation

2120
02:03:35,280 --> 02:03:38,920
Speaker 1: of Taiwan, which is that the Ching occupation of Taiwan

2121
02:03:39,080 --> 02:03:42,560
Speaker 1: is China's first like first new settler colony. The Ching

2122
02:03:42,600 --> 02:03:46,560
Speaker 1: administrators they divide the indigenous population into quote cooked and

2123
02:03:46,760 --> 02:03:50,560
Speaker 1: raw savages. Um that those are their words. That literally

2124
02:03:50,600 --> 02:03:55,960
Speaker 1: that's what they call them. Like it is why because

2125
02:03:56,000 --> 02:04:00,800
Speaker 1: they're really racist like this, this is like this, this

2126
02:04:00,880 --> 02:04:02,360
Speaker 1: is like a very old thing and sort of like

2127
02:04:03,600 --> 02:04:06,440
Speaker 1: sort of Chinese imperial discourse. Right, It's like you have

2128
02:04:06,520 --> 02:04:08,840
Speaker 1: the difference between like barbarians and like Chinese people and

2129
02:04:08,960 --> 02:04:11,040
Speaker 1: like savages and non savages like this this is like

2130
02:04:11,360 --> 02:04:14,160
Speaker 1: this is how these people think, right, and it's not good.

2131
02:04:14,640 --> 02:04:17,040
Speaker 1: Like I don't know, I don' don't know, like how

2132
02:04:17,440 --> 02:04:19,720
Speaker 1: many more ways I can like try to explain to

2133
02:04:19,760 --> 02:04:22,400
Speaker 1: people who are like who have been like like people

2134
02:04:22,440 --> 02:04:24,560
Speaker 1: have been like telling the Chinese nationalist stuff for so

2135
02:04:24,720 --> 02:04:26,600
Speaker 1: long that it's like this this also was not good,

2136
02:04:26,800 --> 02:04:30,920
Speaker 1: Like guys, and again it's something the US has done

2137
02:04:31,120 --> 02:04:33,879
Speaker 1: the UK. There's classic imperialism right now. We took about

2138
02:04:34,240 --> 02:04:38,600
Speaker 1: tribes in the US, racist in the British Empire. Yeah,

2139
02:04:39,640 --> 02:04:43,480
Speaker 1: I'm going to read a passage from Taiwan's imagine geography. Indeed,

2140
02:04:43,640 --> 02:04:46,840
Speaker 1: as ching writers began to construct the Taiwan indigenous as

2141
02:04:46,880 --> 02:04:50,280
Speaker 1: two distinct groups. Negative traits that have been formally associated

2142
02:04:50,360 --> 02:04:53,680
Speaker 1: with quote the Taiwan savages as a whole began to

2143
02:04:53,840 --> 02:04:58,640
Speaker 1: be mapped on the wild or raw savages. We're Earlier

2144
02:04:58,720 --> 02:05:02,120
Speaker 1: text claimed, for example, that the savages quote by nature

2145
02:05:02,240 --> 02:05:05,919
Speaker 1: like to kill or quote were or were quote stubborn

2146
02:05:06,000 --> 02:05:09,520
Speaker 1: and stupid. Now writers attributed these characteristics to the raw

2147
02:05:09,600 --> 02:05:13,360
Speaker 1: savages alone. Head Hunting, a notorious practice that the earlier

2148
02:05:13,680 --> 02:05:16,320
Speaker 1: the earliest sources had associated with the natives of Taiwan

2149
02:05:16,360 --> 02:05:19,640
Speaker 1: and other Pacific islands, also became also came to be

2150
02:05:19,720 --> 02:05:23,160
Speaker 1: seen as a raw savage practice. By the early eighteenth

2151
02:05:23,200 --> 02:05:27,120
Speaker 1: century travel writing, travel writers increasingly emphasized the violent and

2152
02:05:27,240 --> 02:05:31,080
Speaker 1: murderous behavior of the raw savages. The expansion of the

2153
02:05:31,120 --> 02:05:34,040
Speaker 1: Han Chinese population at this time caused an exhalation of

2154
02:05:34,120 --> 02:05:37,440
Speaker 1: conflict between Chinese settlers and the indigenous over land and

2155
02:05:37,520 --> 02:05:41,440
Speaker 1: other resources. Hostile indigitees were thus becoming a real threat

2156
02:05:41,480 --> 02:05:44,800
Speaker 1: to the safety of Han Chinese settlers. Although some writers

2157
02:05:44,840 --> 02:05:48,000
Speaker 1: blamed inter ethnic conflict on trouble making Han Chinese settlers,

2158
02:05:48,320 --> 02:05:52,000
Speaker 1: many Ching literati attributed the belligerous of the raw savages

2159
02:05:52,040 --> 02:05:58,960
Speaker 1: to the inherent bloodthirsty nature. So, yeah, it's it's real.

2160
02:05:59,080 --> 02:06:03,840
Speaker 1: It's real, it's real, classic empire ship like textbook shit. Yeah,

2161
02:06:04,480 --> 02:06:06,640
Speaker 1: and you know, and you can see that there's this

2162
02:06:06,680 --> 02:06:09,000
Speaker 1: whole nationalist myth that like you'll read if you read

2163
02:06:09,080 --> 02:06:11,400
Speaker 1: modern people like talking about this, or they'll be like, oh,

2164
02:06:11,520 --> 02:06:14,320
Speaker 1: the indigenous population that Chinese government got along so great.

2165
02:06:14,680 --> 02:06:18,760
Speaker 1: It is completely bullshit. This is an incredibly racist settler state,

2166
02:06:18,760 --> 02:06:21,760
Speaker 1: and it stays an incredibly racist settler state when when

2167
02:06:21,760 --> 02:06:26,800
Speaker 1: the Japanese take over Taiwan and the Japanese occupation is

2168
02:06:26,880 --> 02:06:29,200
Speaker 1: even worse than the chain occupation of indigenous people in

2169
02:06:29,280 --> 02:06:31,040
Speaker 1: a lot of ways to real ship show there's a

2170
02:06:31,120 --> 02:06:35,000
Speaker 1: huge massacre that they do in the thirties. Um, yeah,

2171
02:06:35,120 --> 02:06:36,720
Speaker 1: and and okay, we' just also mentioned at this point.

2172
02:06:37,040 --> 02:06:39,120
Speaker 1: So I've been focusing a lot on the the indigenous

2173
02:06:39,120 --> 02:06:42,360
Speaker 1: population because almost everyone who tells the story from all

2174
02:06:42,440 --> 02:06:45,919
Speaker 1: sides doesn't talk about them ever, because it's it's incredibly

2175
02:06:45,960 --> 02:06:49,160
Speaker 1: inconvenient to like everyone's narrative that there were people here

2176
02:06:49,400 --> 02:06:53,760
Speaker 1: for literally six thousand years, um. But you know, while

2177
02:06:54,880 --> 02:06:57,120
Speaker 1: basically since the Dutch showed up in the in the

2178
02:06:57,120 --> 02:07:01,280
Speaker 1: mid sixteen hundreds, UM, there have been like increasing numbers

2179
02:07:01,280 --> 02:07:03,800
Speaker 1: of Chinese settlers, and as as the Chin occupation sort

2180
02:07:03,840 --> 02:07:05,840
Speaker 1: of wears on, the number of Chinese settlers increases and

2181
02:07:05,920 --> 02:07:09,720
Speaker 1: increases increases, and it gets to the point where, you know,

2182
02:07:10,280 --> 02:07:12,440
Speaker 1: kind of close to like what we have today, where

2183
02:07:13,200 --> 02:07:16,000
Speaker 1: like the the indigenous population of Taiwan is like two

2184
02:07:16,080 --> 02:07:19,240
Speaker 1: percent of the population, and it's which is which is

2185
02:07:19,280 --> 02:07:21,800
Speaker 1: pretty close to what the indigenous population presenting the population

2186
02:07:21,840 --> 02:07:26,440
Speaker 1: of the US is for example. Yeah, and would make sorry,

2187
02:07:26,440 --> 02:07:30,160
Speaker 1: I'm not going to It's okay, Yeah, I'm going to

2188
02:07:30,240 --> 02:07:34,360
Speaker 1: talk about Elizabeth Warren. But god, you know, actually fucking

2189
02:07:34,400 --> 02:07:36,320
Speaker 1: I will talk about Elizabeth Warren in the middle of this,

2190
02:07:36,400 --> 02:07:40,880
Speaker 1: because yeah, because her her whole thing of like pretending

2191
02:07:40,920 --> 02:07:42,760
Speaker 1: to be indigenous was also fun because like she has

2192
02:07:42,800 --> 02:07:47,120
Speaker 1: a cookbook, and the cookbook yeah, yeah, that claims both

2193
02:07:47,200 --> 02:07:49,320
Speaker 1: her and her husband or indigenous. And then in that

2194
02:07:49,520 --> 02:07:53,960
Speaker 1: he's like maybe the most incomprehensible, awful like example of

2195
02:07:54,040 --> 02:07:56,200
Speaker 1: Chinese cooking every scene in my life, which apparently stole

2196
02:07:56,280 --> 02:08:00,880
Speaker 1: from like another cookbook. And it's really like just cascading

2197
02:08:01,000 --> 02:08:05,160
Speaker 1: levels of racism all the way down. It's oh god,

2198
02:08:05,520 --> 02:08:10,320
Speaker 1: it's fine, it's all fine. All the settler colonies are bad.

2199
02:08:10,360 --> 02:08:13,560
Speaker 1: Their politics are all also always bad because again, like

2200
02:08:13,920 --> 02:08:18,800
Speaker 1: being a settler colony inherently makes your politics awful because yeah,

2201
02:08:19,160 --> 02:08:22,000
Speaker 1: and representing yourself as an indigenous person to gain personal

2202
02:08:22,040 --> 02:08:24,480
Speaker 1: advantage in a settler colony when you are not one

2203
02:08:24,760 --> 02:08:29,760
Speaker 1: is ongoing active colonialism. Yeah, genuinely terrific stuff Like, yeah,

2204
02:08:30,400 --> 02:08:37,400
Speaker 1: don't do it. So having said that, so okay, we

2205
02:08:37,440 --> 02:08:40,000
Speaker 1: have to talk about the Han population. There's like different

2206
02:08:40,120 --> 02:08:44,040
Speaker 1: like subgroups of the Han population who are have different ethnicities,

2207
02:08:44,040 --> 02:08:46,520
Speaker 1: to speak different rates, like speak different languages because Han

2208
02:08:46,680 --> 02:08:49,560
Speaker 1: is like a very large sort of category, and like

2209
02:08:49,760 --> 02:08:52,240
Speaker 1: inside of Han Chinese there's like people who are Hawka.

2210
02:08:52,280 --> 02:08:55,120
Speaker 1: There's there's a whole bunch of different groups. Um, And

2211
02:08:55,600 --> 02:08:57,280
Speaker 1: I guess the one thing that's worth mentioning is that

2212
02:08:57,320 --> 02:08:59,920
Speaker 1: a lot of the like you'll hear people talk about

2213
02:09:00,000 --> 02:09:02,360
Speaker 1: Taiwanese as like its own language, and like that's like

2214
02:09:02,920 --> 02:09:04,960
Speaker 1: there there are a bunch of people who were Hanbu

2215
02:09:05,040 --> 02:09:06,920
Speaker 1: who don't speak Mandarin, and so like a lot of

2216
02:09:06,960 --> 02:09:10,400
Speaker 1: people in Taiwan speak Taiwanese, which is sort of like

2217
02:09:10,480 --> 02:09:16,240
Speaker 1: Hakka h ish Lang. Well, okay, what's what what's what's

2218
02:09:16,240 --> 02:09:20,360
Speaker 1: the most technically accurate with sagas it is a language

2219
02:09:20,400 --> 02:09:23,240
Speaker 1: that has developed on Taiwan, like in Taiwan by people

2220
02:09:23,280 --> 02:09:26,680
Speaker 1: who speak Kaka, and it's basically pretty close to that. Yeah, um,

2221
02:09:27,600 --> 02:09:29,520
Speaker 1: And we're not gonna get into super gradular detail about

2222
02:09:29,520 --> 02:09:34,040
Speaker 1: these ways of immigration, um, but basically, like one of

2223
02:09:34,080 --> 02:09:35,720
Speaker 1: the things that happens is that among these sort of

2224
02:09:35,760 --> 02:09:39,640
Speaker 1: han settlers, there becomes this sort of like Taiwanese identity

2225
02:09:39,840 --> 02:09:42,240
Speaker 1: of like them being Taiwanese, like specifically as a thing.

2226
02:09:43,280 --> 02:09:46,640
Speaker 1: And when when the Japanese lose World War Two, the

2227
02:09:46,720 --> 02:09:51,680
Speaker 1: Nationalist Party or the CAMT just like occupies Taiwan. But

2228
02:09:52,000 --> 02:09:54,040
Speaker 1: this is a real problem because again, most of the

2229
02:09:54,080 --> 02:09:57,320
Speaker 1: people don't want to be ruled by the CAMT because

2230
02:09:57,360 --> 02:10:01,160
Speaker 1: the KMT like absolutely suck. Um. If you want me

2231
02:10:01,240 --> 02:10:03,760
Speaker 1: to hear me, like go deeper into them, go listen

2232
02:10:03,760 --> 02:10:06,440
Speaker 1: to my bastard's episode in the World Anti Communist League. Uh.

2233
02:10:06,600 --> 02:10:09,040
Speaker 1: The short version is that the KMT is a genocidal

2234
02:10:09,520 --> 02:10:12,040
Speaker 1: like anti communist des squad party run by an organized

2235
02:10:12,080 --> 02:10:15,440
Speaker 1: crime outfit that's led by Shankai Check and you know,

2236
02:10:15,600 --> 02:10:20,000
Speaker 1: like they suck like really like absolutely horrible people. Um.

2237
02:10:20,560 --> 02:10:22,840
Speaker 1: And as the CAMT starts to lose a civil word

2238
02:10:22,880 --> 02:10:25,280
Speaker 1: of MAO like born more CAMT supporters not some people

2239
02:10:25,320 --> 02:10:28,280
Speaker 1: just like running from the war start fleeing in Taiwan,

2240
02:10:28,560 --> 02:10:30,640
Speaker 1: and this develops a mass like you get these massive

2241
02:10:30,680 --> 02:10:32,720
Speaker 1: tension between then people who had already been there and

2242
02:10:32,880 --> 02:10:34,960
Speaker 1: the KMT and they're sort of new supporters and their

2243
02:10:35,000 --> 02:10:39,160
Speaker 1: new sort of like settler immigrant population, and this boils

2244
02:10:39,240 --> 02:10:42,040
Speaker 1: over into what's called the February incident or the two

2245
02:10:42,120 --> 02:10:46,160
Speaker 1: eight incident. UM. Basically what happens so a CAMT cop

2246
02:10:46,360 --> 02:10:48,800
Speaker 1: like attacks a woman who was like selling cigarettes on

2247
02:10:48,840 --> 02:10:53,200
Speaker 1: the street illegally because the KMT, like I really also

2248
02:10:53,240 --> 02:10:56,400
Speaker 1: kept like they're so unbelievably corrupt and so like that

2249
02:10:56,520 --> 02:10:59,120
Speaker 1: they have all these like monopolies where it's like okay,

2250
02:10:59,200 --> 02:11:01,600
Speaker 1: like there's a guy who has like the opium monopoly

2251
02:11:01,720 --> 02:11:04,840
Speaker 1: or like a guy who has like the cigarette monopoly, right,

2252
02:11:04,920 --> 02:11:07,680
Speaker 1: and unless you're running through that monopoly, you can't sell

2253
02:11:07,880 --> 02:11:11,000
Speaker 1: like cigarettes. Yeah, and so in something that I think

2254
02:11:11,000 --> 02:11:14,160
Speaker 1: will be familiar to people who like, like have followed

2255
02:11:14,240 --> 02:11:15,600
Speaker 1: the number of people in the US who have been

2256
02:11:15,680 --> 02:11:21,600
Speaker 1: killed for uh. Yeah, so the cops start like beating

2257
02:11:21,640 --> 02:11:23,440
Speaker 1: this woman over the head with it with his pistol,

2258
02:11:23,840 --> 02:11:26,680
Speaker 1: and everyone around them gets incredibly piste off. And there's

2259
02:11:26,720 --> 02:11:31,120
Speaker 1: these giant protests, um, and the camp to your response

2260
02:11:31,120 --> 02:11:34,320
Speaker 1: to the protests by shooting into the crowd. And yeah,

2261
02:11:34,360 --> 02:11:36,440
Speaker 1: I mean so there's another side of this I should

2262
02:11:36,440 --> 02:11:39,640
Speaker 1: mention like briefly, which is that, like part of what's

2263
02:11:39,680 --> 02:11:41,560
Speaker 1: happening here is like there's a there's a kind of

2264
02:11:41,760 --> 02:11:45,320
Speaker 1: ugly like basically race riot that starts happening at the

2265
02:11:45,360 --> 02:11:48,360
Speaker 1: beginning of this where like people like the sort of

2266
02:11:48,400 --> 02:11:53,640
Speaker 1: like Cantonese population like starts just like attacking like any

2267
02:11:53,840 --> 02:11:58,160
Speaker 1: random like any random people from like the campt generation,

2268
02:11:58,240 --> 02:11:59,800
Speaker 1: just like they found on the street and start attacking

2269
02:12:00,080 --> 02:12:04,720
Speaker 1: LNG and like that sucks. Um. It is also just

2270
02:12:05,720 --> 02:12:08,720
Speaker 1: unbelievably less violent than what happens next, which is at

2271
02:12:08,760 --> 02:12:12,080
Speaker 1: the KMT Like well, okay, so so there there there's

2272
02:12:12,080 --> 02:12:13,440
Speaker 1: sort of this race, right I think, and then there's

2273
02:12:13,440 --> 02:12:16,440
Speaker 1: there's like there's a full scale revolution and the Taiwanese

2274
02:12:16,480 --> 02:12:19,240
Speaker 1: population like seizes control of base of like almost the

2275
02:12:19,400 --> 02:12:22,400
Speaker 1: entire island, like the entirety of the main island, and

2276
02:12:23,040 --> 02:12:25,680
Speaker 1: they start demanding like democratic rights and stuff like you know,

2277
02:12:25,800 --> 02:12:28,000
Speaker 1: a free press and free assembly and like the protection

2278
02:12:28,040 --> 02:12:30,560
Speaker 1: of the digitus population. Although I should also mention that

2279
02:12:30,680 --> 02:12:35,640
Speaker 1: like like nobody really inti one like treating digitus population

2280
02:12:35,720 --> 02:12:37,520
Speaker 1: will like it was bad enough, Like my seven year

2281
02:12:37,560 --> 02:12:39,360
Speaker 1: old mom was like, oh my god, why is everyone

2282
02:12:39,400 --> 02:12:44,880
Speaker 1: treating these people so badly? Like it's but you know, okay,

2283
02:12:44,920 --> 02:12:47,080
Speaker 1: So they do this thing, they have this revolution and

2284
02:12:47,120 --> 02:12:49,560
Speaker 1: then the KMT like just sends the army to the

2285
02:12:49,600 --> 02:12:52,120
Speaker 1: island and they killed something like twenty people in a week.

2286
02:12:52,960 --> 02:12:56,200
Speaker 1: Um like they are like they're they're cutting people's face

2287
02:12:56,360 --> 02:12:58,760
Speaker 1: like later like cutting parts of people's faces off with

2288
02:12:58,920 --> 02:13:04,200
Speaker 1: like nive Like it is unbelievably brutal. And this begins

2289
02:13:04,240 --> 02:13:08,600
Speaker 1: thirty eight years of martial law. UM. The subsequent CAMPTI

2290
02:13:08,680 --> 02:13:11,320
Speaker 1: police state tortures like tens of thousands of people in

2291
02:13:11,440 --> 02:13:13,440
Speaker 1: rules Taiwan with like an with an iron fist until

2292
02:13:13,440 --> 02:13:17,240
Speaker 1: like the late eighties and this is where things get

2293
02:13:17,560 --> 02:13:21,320
Speaker 1: really messy, right because up until nineteen forty two, like

2294
02:13:21,640 --> 02:13:24,600
Speaker 1: nobody in China like and and and this included both

2295
02:13:24,680 --> 02:13:27,800
Speaker 1: the CAMT and the CCP. Until actually forty two, neither

2296
02:13:27,880 --> 02:13:29,920
Speaker 1: of them actually claimed that Taiwan was part of China.

2297
02:13:31,320 --> 02:13:33,880
Speaker 1: But then in two both of them start claiming that

2298
02:13:33,960 --> 02:13:37,560
Speaker 1: that one is part of China. Yeah, and so when

2299
02:13:37,680 --> 02:13:43,120
Speaker 1: when when the KMT flees to Taiwan, both the CCP

2300
02:13:43,560 --> 02:13:47,360
Speaker 1: and the CAMT both claimed to be a legitimate government

2301
02:13:47,360 --> 02:13:49,720
Speaker 1: of China and be to be the legitimate government of Taiwan.

2302
02:13:51,720 --> 02:13:55,080
Speaker 1: And it's a disaster. Like the cam T is nuts,

2303
02:13:55,440 --> 02:13:59,640
Speaker 1: Like my again, like they made my like seven year

2304
02:13:59,640 --> 02:14:01,840
Speaker 1: old mom sing songs about how would they there? One day?

2305
02:14:01,840 --> 02:14:04,800
Speaker 1: They were going to reclaim the mother land? Like these

2306
02:14:04,880 --> 02:14:11,200
Speaker 1: people suck some of them still in myanma or maybe

2307
02:14:11,440 --> 02:14:13,960
Speaker 1: perhaps not now, but like I've heard from them from

2308
02:14:14,080 --> 02:14:15,960
Speaker 1: friends who are older who were there, that there are

2309
02:14:15,960 --> 02:14:19,120
Speaker 1: a bunch of cam TE like living in parts of

2310
02:14:19,200 --> 02:14:21,920
Speaker 1: me and Mari and tourist would go pay to visit them. Yeah,

2311
02:14:22,080 --> 02:14:25,680
Speaker 1: like that's that's the thing, Like yeah, they're like they

2312
02:14:26,680 --> 02:14:28,440
Speaker 1: most of the people flee that flee to Taiwan. But

2313
02:14:28,520 --> 02:14:30,680
Speaker 1: like they break in a number of different directions, and

2314
02:14:30,720 --> 02:14:32,480
Speaker 1: there's like a bunch of weird rump states they set up,

2315
02:14:32,520 --> 02:14:34,680
Speaker 1: they get knocked off. Eventually, it's a it's a whole mess.

2316
02:14:34,720 --> 02:14:38,760
Speaker 1: But in Taiwan, like they have this problem, which is that, like, okay,

2317
02:14:38,800 --> 02:14:41,920
Speaker 1: so there's like water in between China and Taiwan, and

2318
02:14:42,120 --> 02:14:43,560
Speaker 1: if you want to get troops over it, you have

2319
02:14:43,640 --> 02:14:45,960
Speaker 1: to have those troops across the water. And this is

2320
02:14:46,000 --> 02:14:50,120
Speaker 1: a real problem for like an invasion. So what ends

2321
02:14:50,160 --> 02:14:53,160
Speaker 1: up happening is a series so like okay, so you

2322
02:14:53,280 --> 02:14:55,520
Speaker 1: have the cam T in the CCP like staring each

2323
02:14:55,520 --> 02:14:58,160
Speaker 1: other down across these islands, and the product of this

2324
02:14:58,240 --> 02:15:00,840
Speaker 1: is what's called the Three Taiwan Straits christ these so

2325
02:15:01,080 --> 02:15:04,960
Speaker 1: basically in the CCP starts sell shelling Taiwan between in

2326
02:15:05,000 --> 02:15:10,480
Speaker 1: the five starts shelling like Taiwan, and then they do

2327
02:15:10,560 --> 02:15:12,800
Speaker 1: it again at fifty eight and like the CAMT shelves

2328
02:15:12,880 --> 02:15:15,600
Speaker 1: them back, and you know, and there's a couple of

2329
02:15:15,600 --> 02:15:17,080
Speaker 1: points where it looks like they're going to invade, but

2330
02:15:17,160 --> 02:15:19,360
Speaker 1: then the US like move supplies to the KMT to

2331
02:15:19,440 --> 02:15:23,280
Speaker 1: like keep the c from invading, and you know the

2332
02:15:23,360 --> 02:15:25,840
Speaker 1: result of this is just like I think, incredibly psychologically

2333
02:15:25,920 --> 02:15:30,960
Speaker 1: revealing move after like the crisis, which crisis ends with

2334
02:15:31,120 --> 02:15:33,840
Speaker 1: the KMT and the CCP agreeing to shell each other

2335
02:15:33,960 --> 02:15:38,240
Speaker 1: on opposite days because and I cannot emphasize this enough,

2336
02:15:38,480 --> 02:15:42,640
Speaker 1: this entire conflict is profoundly bullshit and was foisted upon

2337
02:15:42,680 --> 02:15:47,480
Speaker 1: Taiwan by a bunch of pedley squabbling Chinese nationalists. How

2338
02:15:47,560 --> 02:15:49,960
Speaker 1: big is that distance we're talking about, Like they're sending

2339
02:15:50,000 --> 02:15:53,040
Speaker 1: shells over there in the fifties, so it's probably not vast. Well,

2340
02:15:54,280 --> 02:15:57,400
Speaker 1: part of what's happening is so it's it's a hundred miles,

2341
02:15:58,200 --> 02:16:00,800
Speaker 1: hundred ten miles. But what's happening year is like they're

2342
02:16:00,840 --> 02:16:03,160
Speaker 1: they're there. They basically like have set up on outposts

2343
02:16:03,160 --> 02:16:07,240
Speaker 1: in different islands in between, like the Big Island and uh,

2344
02:16:07,560 --> 02:16:09,200
Speaker 1: the shore, so that they're they're like they're on these

2345
02:16:09,240 --> 02:16:12,960
Speaker 1: islands shelling each other, like they drafted My grandpa and

2346
02:16:13,080 --> 02:16:15,920
Speaker 1: sent him to one of these places and that's and

2347
02:16:16,000 --> 02:16:18,520
Speaker 1: then he came back and was like, funk this, we're

2348
02:16:18,560 --> 02:16:20,240
Speaker 1: out and so like that that's where my family's in

2349
02:16:20,240 --> 02:16:22,400
Speaker 1: the US because he was like, we're not doing this

2350
02:16:22,440 --> 02:16:27,840
Speaker 1: ship again. This sucks. Yeah, It's like, I'm not gonna

2351
02:16:27,880 --> 02:16:29,760
Speaker 1: be I'm not gonna be cannon fodder for these like

2352
02:16:30,680 --> 02:16:37,360
Speaker 1: weird nationalist psychos. So okay, So what the sort of

2353
02:16:37,440 --> 02:16:40,040
Speaker 1: result of this, though, is that the KMT gets the

2354
02:16:40,080 --> 02:16:45,160
Speaker 1: backing of the US, and the KMT becomes in Taiwan

2355
02:16:45,360 --> 02:16:49,560
Speaker 1: is the like the legitimately internationally recognized government, um like

2356
02:16:49,800 --> 02:16:52,320
Speaker 1: of all of China from the end of the Civil

2357
02:16:52,360 --> 02:16:58,280
Speaker 1: War until like the seventies. Yeah right, yeah, yeah, how's

2358
02:16:58,280 --> 02:17:01,880
Speaker 1: the UN seat I actually we get we'll get into that,

2359
02:17:02,080 --> 02:17:04,360
Speaker 1: and you know what we were doing here. So one

2360
02:17:04,360 --> 02:17:06,720
Speaker 1: of the things that happens here is that, okay, so,

2361
02:17:07,640 --> 02:17:10,640
Speaker 1: like the US really really does not want the CCP

2362
02:17:10,760 --> 02:17:12,600
Speaker 1: to have the u n C. And what are the

2363
02:17:12,640 --> 02:17:14,800
Speaker 1: things they try to do is that they offer neighbors

2364
02:17:14,920 --> 02:17:19,280
Speaker 1: India like the seat on like what's it called, am

2365
02:17:19,280 --> 02:17:23,640
Speaker 1: I blanking on the name of the thing? National Security Counsel? Yeah, yeah,

2366
02:17:23,680 --> 02:17:27,120
Speaker 1: you and Security Council. They offer India Sea the Security

2367
02:17:27,160 --> 02:17:30,280
Speaker 1: Council and neighbor is like, no, I'm not gonna take this.

2368
02:17:30,320 --> 02:17:31,960
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna take this. This this is China seat

2369
02:17:32,000 --> 02:17:33,800
Speaker 1: on the Council, Like, I'm not gonna take this. And

2370
02:17:33,920 --> 02:17:40,160
Speaker 1: then Mao repays him by invading India. Three in ways, Um,

2371
02:17:41,840 --> 02:17:43,360
Speaker 1: this this is not in my script? I am I

2372
02:17:43,440 --> 02:17:48,959
Speaker 1: am off, yeah, I am off script? Oh two sorry

2373
02:17:49,120 --> 02:17:51,600
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, So like this a this, this goes great

2374
02:17:51,720 --> 02:17:56,280
Speaker 1: for neighbor Mao just like invades and the Indians lose

2375
02:17:56,360 --> 02:17:59,400
Speaker 1: the war very badly. To understand why eventually trying to

2376
02:17:59,400 --> 02:18:01,640
Speaker 1: gets recognied, you have to have talked about it about

2377
02:18:01,640 --> 02:18:04,400
Speaker 1: like what was going on inside of the PRC, inside

2378
02:18:04,440 --> 02:18:07,440
Speaker 1: of the people's probably in China. So the CCP fights

2379
02:18:07,480 --> 02:18:09,840
Speaker 1: a war with the Soviets in nineteen sixty nine, which

2380
02:18:09,959 --> 02:18:12,960
Speaker 1: and this war gets called the Sino Soviet Border conflicts.

2381
02:18:13,040 --> 02:18:16,200
Speaker 1: But like this is like pretty much a real war,

2382
02:18:16,720 --> 02:18:20,280
Speaker 1: Like there are like Chinese and Soviet division shelling each other,

2383
02:18:20,920 --> 02:18:25,880
Speaker 1: like a lot of people die. Um, like I I

2384
02:18:25,959 --> 02:18:28,119
Speaker 1: don't know if I've told the story on this podcast before.

2385
02:18:28,280 --> 02:18:29,920
Speaker 1: My my my favorite part of this whole thing is

2386
02:18:30,000 --> 02:18:32,760
Speaker 1: that the Soviets start like wargaming, can can they defeat

2387
02:18:32,840 --> 02:18:34,360
Speaker 1: China and nuclear war? And they figure out that they

2388
02:18:34,400 --> 02:18:37,320
Speaker 1: can't because the Chinese population is so just is so

2389
02:18:37,440 --> 02:18:39,760
Speaker 1: dispersed that even even if they knuke all of China,

2390
02:18:39,800 --> 02:18:41,440
Speaker 1: they can't kill everyone they'll and they'll lose the war

2391
02:18:41,480 --> 02:18:44,760
Speaker 1: in human wave attacks. So the Soviets started developing, developing

2392
02:18:44,800 --> 02:18:47,440
Speaker 1: the strategy of like having like a line of nuclear

2393
02:18:47,600 --> 02:18:50,840
Speaker 1: land mines across the Soviet Chinese borders so that the

2394
02:18:50,920 --> 02:18:54,120
Speaker 1: human wave attacks can't get through, because they like this

2395
02:18:54,240 --> 02:18:57,120
Speaker 1: is this conflict is nuts, Like both China and the

2396
02:18:57,240 --> 02:18:58,960
Speaker 1: USS are are trying to get the US to ally

2397
02:18:59,040 --> 02:19:01,480
Speaker 1: with them to like do do do a preemptive nuclear

2398
02:19:01,520 --> 02:19:05,800
Speaker 1: strike on on the other side, Like it's crazy and

2399
02:19:06,000 --> 02:19:09,360
Speaker 1: and this like completes the Sino Soviet split, and the

2400
02:19:09,560 --> 02:19:12,840
Speaker 1: US like really really wants to make sure that the

2401
02:19:12,879 --> 02:19:15,760
Speaker 1: Sino Soviets but sticks, and so the US starts negotiating

2402
02:19:15,800 --> 02:19:18,480
Speaker 1: with China basically to bring China to the well, Okay,

2403
02:19:18,760 --> 02:19:20,240
Speaker 1: there's two ways of looking at it. One is that

2404
02:19:20,320 --> 02:19:22,640
Speaker 1: they just want to separate, like, you know, the Chinese

2405
02:19:22,680 --> 02:19:24,080
Speaker 1: from the Soviets. The other way of looking at it

2406
02:19:24,200 --> 02:19:26,080
Speaker 1: is that they want to like bring China fully over

2407
02:19:26,120 --> 02:19:28,160
Speaker 1: to the American side of the Cold War. And I

2408
02:19:28,240 --> 02:19:32,480
Speaker 1: think the latter approach actually works, right um, So in

2409
02:19:32,760 --> 02:19:36,160
Speaker 1: in in nine, the US recognizes the CCP as the

2410
02:19:36,240 --> 02:19:39,920
Speaker 1: legitimate government of China. UH. Several months later, China invades

2411
02:19:40,000 --> 02:19:43,760
Speaker 1: Vietnam in defense of the Khmer rouge, which the US

2412
02:19:43,879 --> 02:19:48,280
Speaker 1: was also backing. So yeah, um, and and this is

2413
02:19:48,320 --> 02:19:52,279
Speaker 1: where we get into some more diplomatic bullshit. Uh okay.

2414
02:19:52,400 --> 02:19:56,240
Speaker 1: So China maintain something called the One China principle. The

2415
02:19:56,320 --> 02:19:59,640
Speaker 1: One China principle holds that the CCP is the only

2416
02:19:59,680 --> 02:20:02,560
Speaker 1: government mint of China and then it rules Taiwan. The

2417
02:20:02,800 --> 02:20:05,200
Speaker 1: US has something called the One China Policy, and the

2418
02:20:05,280 --> 02:20:08,720
Speaker 1: One China Policy is it does not take a stance

2419
02:20:09,200 --> 02:20:12,320
Speaker 1: either way on who the government of Taiwan is. What

2420
02:20:12,480 --> 02:20:15,320
Speaker 1: it does is it acknowledges that China claims that it

2421
02:20:15,440 --> 02:20:20,520
Speaker 1: rules Taiwan. And you will see nationalists lie about this constantly.

2422
02:20:20,560 --> 02:20:22,880
Speaker 1: They will say things like the US recognizes Taiwan as

2423
02:20:22,920 --> 02:20:26,440
Speaker 1: part of China under the One Child Policy, blah blah blah.

2424
02:20:26,480 --> 02:20:28,560
Speaker 1: Action is a violation of the One China Policy. And

2425
02:20:28,640 --> 02:20:31,240
Speaker 1: that's not true, right. What actually happened is that the US,

2426
02:20:31,520 --> 02:20:35,160
Speaker 1: the US technical term for this is called strategic ambiguity.

2427
02:20:35,800 --> 02:20:37,520
Speaker 1: And you know, so they have this thing like, they

2428
02:20:37,560 --> 02:20:40,720
Speaker 1: don't they don't formally recognize either side as legimate government

2429
02:20:40,720 --> 02:20:43,920
Speaker 1: of Taiwan. They recognize that this is what China says

2430
02:20:44,040 --> 02:20:48,680
Speaker 1: about Taiwan, they don't actually recognize, but they have no

2431
02:20:48,840 --> 02:20:52,160
Speaker 1: formal position on whether this is the actually rules Taiwan.

2432
02:20:52,400 --> 02:20:55,520
Speaker 1: What they have is a recognition that China believes this.

2433
02:20:56,000 --> 02:20:59,240
Speaker 1: And again this is all diplomatic bullshit. It's part of

2434
02:20:59,320 --> 02:21:04,160
Speaker 1: why I hate like talking about this because like, again,

2435
02:21:04,720 --> 02:21:08,240
Speaker 1: the lives of literally tens of billions of people are

2436
02:21:08,320 --> 02:21:12,840
Speaker 1: being governed by like diplomats saying doing like that kind

2437
02:21:12,920 --> 02:21:17,760
Speaker 1: of ship because it sucks. Yeah, So that's that's that's

2438
02:21:17,840 --> 02:21:20,720
Speaker 1: that's the one Child policy thing, which is not Jesus

2439
02:21:20,760 --> 02:21:22,640
Speaker 1: the one China policy, which is not the same thing

2440
02:21:22,840 --> 02:21:26,000
Speaker 1: as the one China principle. Um, yeah and so and

2441
02:21:26,080 --> 02:21:28,080
Speaker 1: so like. All the while, while this is going on,

2442
02:21:28,240 --> 02:21:30,440
Speaker 1: the CCP and the KMT yere in this massive race

2443
02:21:30,440 --> 02:21:32,640
Speaker 1: to see you can kill the most communists like that.

2444
02:21:32,720 --> 02:21:35,279
Speaker 1: The CCP kills about a million commination the Cultural Revolution

2445
02:21:35,360 --> 02:21:39,200
Speaker 1: and then invades Vietnam to kill even more communists. The

2446
02:21:39,320 --> 02:21:42,840
Speaker 1: KMT like not not to be outdone by by by

2447
02:21:43,000 --> 02:21:45,920
Speaker 1: by by their former comrades across the border. The KMT

2448
02:21:46,200 --> 02:21:48,240
Speaker 1: is training desk squalls in Honduras and like helping the

2449
02:21:48,280 --> 02:21:51,560
Speaker 1: Guatemalan government do the Guatemalan genocide. It's it's really grim stuff.

2450
02:21:52,320 --> 02:21:55,360
Speaker 1: And you know, the product of this ideolog the product

2451
02:21:55,400 --> 02:21:57,959
Speaker 1: of this whole thing is the audio complete audiological collapse

2452
02:21:58,120 --> 02:22:01,360
Speaker 1: of the Chinese Comunist Party as like a party that

2453
02:22:01,400 --> 02:22:04,520
Speaker 1: does communism, and then the political military collapse with the

2454
02:22:04,600 --> 02:22:08,920
Speaker 1: KMT so the but by I mean it's kind of

2455
02:22:09,320 --> 02:22:10,880
Speaker 1: it sort of has already stopped at the eighties, but

2456
02:22:10,879 --> 02:22:14,320
Speaker 1: by the nineties nineties, the CCP substantively has stopped being

2457
02:22:14,320 --> 02:22:16,080
Speaker 1: a communist party by the sense of the word, like

2458
02:22:16,120 --> 02:22:18,000
Speaker 1: they're just capitalists and they're not they're you know, they're

2459
02:22:18,000 --> 02:22:20,760
Speaker 1: out there making money. And by by by the late

2460
02:22:20,800 --> 02:22:23,440
Speaker 1: two thousands, even like you know, there had been a

2461
02:22:23,520 --> 02:22:25,360
Speaker 1: faction of what's called sure of the Chinese New Left,

2462
02:22:25,760 --> 02:22:27,200
Speaker 1: but had thought that like they could you know, they

2463
02:22:27,360 --> 02:22:28,840
Speaker 1: they could, you know, this is still a communist party

2464
02:22:28,840 --> 02:22:30,480
Speaker 1: and we can still change China from the inside. Those

2465
02:22:30,480 --> 02:22:32,960
Speaker 1: guys are like liquidated completely, like they're just gone, um

2466
02:22:33,920 --> 02:22:35,440
Speaker 1: and you know, and so but you know, by by

2467
02:22:35,520 --> 02:22:38,160
Speaker 1: like now right, like it's just it's just it's just capitalists.

2468
02:22:38,240 --> 02:22:41,520
Speaker 1: And meanwhile, in Taiwan in the eighties and nineties, there's

2469
02:22:41,640 --> 02:22:45,080
Speaker 1: there's increasing resistance the CAMT s like one party like

2470
02:22:45,280 --> 02:22:47,600
Speaker 1: dest squad, like one party state and their whole dest

2471
02:22:47,600 --> 02:22:50,720
Speaker 1: squad like reclaimed them motherland politics. Everyone like starts to

2472
02:22:50,760 --> 02:22:53,800
Speaker 1: hate them. And this is where things get really weird

2473
02:22:54,040 --> 02:22:56,840
Speaker 1: because on the one hand, the CAMPT is incredibly anti communists,

2474
02:22:56,840 --> 02:22:59,320
Speaker 1: but on the other hand, uh, they're the political faction

2475
02:22:59,360 --> 02:23:01,680
Speaker 1: that wants to tie type one the China. And this

2476
02:23:01,879 --> 02:23:03,560
Speaker 1: means that like, you know, as they're sort of like

2477
02:23:03,640 --> 02:23:07,080
Speaker 1: ruthlessly suppressing communists and leftists, they're also like vehemently independence

2478
02:23:07,400 --> 02:23:10,680
Speaker 1: and so like they kill a bunch of anti independence organizers, um,

2479
02:23:11,160 --> 02:23:15,040
Speaker 1: which is like not not not not how anyone like

2480
02:23:15,160 --> 02:23:18,160
Speaker 1: talks about this conflict because it's too weird. So in

2481
02:23:18,959 --> 02:23:20,600
Speaker 1: there's all the sort of weird political things going on

2482
02:23:21,120 --> 02:23:24,280
Speaker 1: in the seven. The KMT ends the martial law that

2483
02:23:24,360 --> 02:23:27,440
Speaker 1: they had been in force since the February incidents, and

2484
02:23:27,560 --> 02:23:31,560
Speaker 1: the KMT like disarms, right they disarm. They're not as

2485
02:23:31,760 --> 02:23:35,199
Speaker 1: in like, Okay, the KMT used to be a party

2486
02:23:35,280 --> 02:23:37,320
Speaker 1: that would like assassinate people for writing an author right,

2487
02:23:37,320 --> 02:23:39,840
Speaker 1: like assassinate Americans on American soil for writing on authorized

2488
02:23:39,879 --> 02:23:43,080
Speaker 1: biography biographies of like Shankai check. And they kind of

2489
02:23:43,120 --> 02:23:47,480
Speaker 1: stopped being that, like they disarm, they're not really in

2490
02:23:47,520 --> 02:23:53,800
Speaker 1: the drug trade anymore, caveats. Don't quote me on that,

2491
02:23:54,080 --> 02:23:56,360
Speaker 1: but like the they're they're they're they're not the party

2492
02:23:56,400 --> 02:23:58,440
Speaker 1: they were in the eighties, right, That's that's what the

2493
02:23:58,440 --> 02:24:00,280
Speaker 1: important thing like that they they lose is the one

2494
02:24:00,320 --> 02:24:03,640
Speaker 1: party dictatorship, and you get the sort of transition to

2495
02:24:03,680 --> 02:24:07,080
Speaker 1: democracy that ends in the first free presidential elections in

2496
02:24:07,160 --> 02:24:13,840
Speaker 1: Taiwani's history. In and this like the right right before this,

2497
02:24:13,959 --> 02:24:16,280
Speaker 1: you get the third Taiwan Straits Crisis, where the president

2498
02:24:16,320 --> 02:24:19,360
Speaker 1: of Taiwan like goes to the US and China react

2499
02:24:19,440 --> 02:24:21,680
Speaker 1: to this by having an enormous ture tempera tantrum and

2500
02:24:21,840 --> 02:24:25,480
Speaker 1: like starts doing military exercises, like they start like simulating

2501
02:24:25,520 --> 02:24:28,680
Speaker 1: an invasion of Taipwe. They start like shooting rockets like

2502
02:24:28,800 --> 02:24:31,640
Speaker 1: at the coast, like jet the the leve these rockets

2503
02:24:31,640 --> 02:24:37,080
Speaker 1: that will land like just off the coast, and it's edgy. Yeah,

2504
02:24:37,280 --> 02:24:39,560
Speaker 1: And the event this ends when the US moves like

2505
02:24:40,120 --> 02:24:45,320
Speaker 1: two carrier groups into into the Pacific and the crisis ends.

2506
02:24:45,400 --> 02:24:48,040
Speaker 1: But like, okay, there's a feelings I would say here.

2507
02:24:48,760 --> 02:24:52,480
Speaker 1: One is that like okay, so on the one hand,

2508
02:24:52,560 --> 02:24:54,760
Speaker 1: this is the CCP having a temperate tensium. Right on

2509
02:24:54,760 --> 02:24:58,520
Speaker 1: the other hand, like it really and this is the

2510
02:24:58,560 --> 02:25:00,920
Speaker 1: thing that I think most Americans have ever experienced, right,

2511
02:25:00,920 --> 02:25:05,760
Speaker 1: because the US is not a country that like gets attacked, right,

2512
02:25:06,840 --> 02:25:11,360
Speaker 1: having another country firing missiles at you fucking sucks, like

2513
02:25:11,879 --> 02:25:15,280
Speaker 1: psychologically it is awful. Like we saw how insane the

2514
02:25:15,400 --> 02:25:18,200
Speaker 1: U S went, like the like the first time it

2515
02:25:18,240 --> 02:25:21,680
Speaker 1: had actually been attacked since like World War Two when

2516
02:25:21,720 --> 02:25:25,880
Speaker 1: I eleven happened, Like you know, you saw just absolutely

2517
02:25:25,920 --> 02:25:29,320
Speaker 1: batshitt the U S goes, right, Like, Okay, if you

2518
02:25:29,400 --> 02:25:31,880
Speaker 1: are a person in Taiwan, right, which like a lot

2519
02:25:31,920 --> 02:25:35,160
Speaker 1: of my family is, and you are constantly having another

2520
02:25:35,240 --> 02:25:39,680
Speaker 1: country shooting rockets at you, like, it sucks like and

2521
02:25:40,440 --> 02:25:42,040
Speaker 1: and I want people to like like sort of like

2522
02:25:42,200 --> 02:25:45,080
Speaker 1: think about that for a second, because like I think

2523
02:25:45,600 --> 02:25:47,800
Speaker 1: a lot of what how, how this crisis and how

2524
02:25:47,840 --> 02:25:50,840
Speaker 1: this whole thing has talked about on the left is

2525
02:25:51,040 --> 02:25:53,880
Speaker 1: as a sort of like abstract thing that's like you know,

2526
02:25:53,920 --> 02:25:56,040
Speaker 1: it's it's it's instead of abstract principles, right, and not

2527
02:25:56,120 --> 02:25:58,800
Speaker 1: stuff that's happening to real people who are like watching

2528
02:25:58,879 --> 02:26:02,920
Speaker 1: missiles fucking fall into the ocean, and you know, like

2529
02:26:03,040 --> 02:26:05,480
Speaker 1: and what we're watching another country like preparing to kill

2530
02:26:05,520 --> 02:26:09,240
Speaker 1: them and this sucks. UM. One of the other things

2531
02:26:09,360 --> 02:26:13,240
Speaker 1: that were not noting here is that like part of

2532
02:26:13,320 --> 02:26:15,360
Speaker 1: what's going on in terms of the hardening of China

2533
02:26:15,400 --> 02:26:20,199
Speaker 1: Taiwan relations is gentlemen square happened. Um. And the reason

2534
02:26:20,280 --> 02:26:22,000
Speaker 1: that this matters is that, so one of the things

2535
02:26:22,080 --> 02:26:25,280
Speaker 1: that like stabilizes I guess relations between Taiwan and China

2536
02:26:25,400 --> 02:26:30,400
Speaker 1: in part is the fact that they're both incredibly economic

2537
02:26:30,520 --> 02:26:34,480
Speaker 1: closely economically connected to the US. UM. And this is

2538
02:26:34,520 --> 02:26:38,720
Speaker 1: because all of the all China, Taiwan and UH and

2539
02:26:38,959 --> 02:26:42,320
Speaker 1: China are all capitalist countries and so they're ruling classes

2540
02:26:42,320 --> 02:26:45,520
Speaker 1: are all completely independence like people. People talk a lot

2541
02:26:45,520 --> 02:26:48,600
Speaker 1: about Pelosi like investing in a bunch of like chip

2542
02:26:48,680 --> 02:26:50,800
Speaker 1: manufacturing companies in Taiwan, and that's true, but she also

2543
02:26:50,800 --> 02:26:53,960
Speaker 1: has a bunch of investments in China, because again, capitalists,

2544
02:26:54,160 --> 02:26:57,560
Speaker 1: single ruling class, they all there. They all all of

2545
02:26:57,600 --> 02:26:59,640
Speaker 1: your logistics lines run through each other. Blah blah blah

2546
02:26:59,640 --> 02:27:02,800
Speaker 1: blah bla uh. I will insert and note here that

2547
02:27:02,879 --> 02:27:04,600
Speaker 1: is not in the script that anytime you should someone

2548
02:27:04,680 --> 02:27:06,800
Speaker 1: talk about like the U S decoupling with their economy

2549
02:27:06,840 --> 02:27:09,480
Speaker 1: from China. They're they're full of ship. Do not like

2550
02:27:09,840 --> 02:27:12,240
Speaker 1: everything they're saying, everything they're about to say is a lie.

2551
02:27:12,360 --> 02:27:14,000
Speaker 1: It does not happen, It has not happened, it will

2552
02:27:14,040 --> 02:27:18,160
Speaker 1: not happen, like they're lying. Um yeah, this is important. Um,

2553
02:27:18,920 --> 02:27:21,680
Speaker 1: even for the height of Trump's bullshit. Yeah. Yeah, Like,

2554
02:27:21,800 --> 02:27:24,199
Speaker 1: like there was kind of an attempt when it didn't

2555
02:27:24,240 --> 02:27:26,440
Speaker 1: work because like you know, you could, Okay, like there

2556
02:27:26,720 --> 02:27:28,840
Speaker 1: are some things you can offer to Mexico, right, but

2557
02:27:28,959 --> 02:27:34,320
Speaker 1: like most like China, China has a unique combination of

2558
02:27:34,600 --> 02:27:38,240
Speaker 1: a like a really good energy grid for the most

2559
02:27:38,280 --> 02:27:40,039
Speaker 1: part of those I mean, okay, there have been times

2560
02:27:40,040 --> 02:27:42,000
Speaker 1: where's gotten over tax but like it can compared to

2561
02:27:42,040 --> 02:27:44,199
Speaker 1: most other development countries that has a really good energy grid.

2562
02:27:44,680 --> 02:27:48,440
Speaker 1: It has a population in which actually doing union organizing

2563
02:27:48,520 --> 02:27:51,960
Speaker 1: is illegal, and it has a population that you know,

2564
02:27:52,120 --> 02:27:54,840
Speaker 1: like gets forced to work incredibly long hours, right, And

2565
02:27:55,080 --> 02:27:57,680
Speaker 1: the combination of those three things makes it makes it

2566
02:27:57,800 --> 02:27:59,800
Speaker 1: you know, a place where if you're an American capitalist,

2567
02:27:59,800 --> 02:28:02,080
Speaker 1: if're Taiwanese capitalist. And that's actually part of this too,

2568
02:28:02,240 --> 02:28:04,560
Speaker 1: is that like part part of the reason there's so

2569
02:28:04,680 --> 02:28:07,200
Speaker 1: much like hatred for Taiwan sort of China among people

2570
02:28:07,240 --> 02:28:09,520
Speaker 1: who you wouldn't expect it to be is that like

2571
02:28:09,640 --> 02:28:11,200
Speaker 1: there's a there's a lot of people in China whose

2572
02:28:11,240 --> 02:28:14,320
Speaker 1: only experience of Taiwan is working for like fucking Fox

2573
02:28:14,440 --> 02:28:17,040
Speaker 1: Cohn and like working just in hell conditions for a

2574
02:28:17,600 --> 02:28:20,520
Speaker 1: like for a Taiwanese capitalist, and you know, and that

2575
02:28:20,680 --> 02:28:23,240
Speaker 1: that's very easy to transformant a national sentiment and it sucks.

2576
02:28:24,120 --> 02:28:26,600
Speaker 1: But yeah, you know, but you know, like okay, so

2577
02:28:26,720 --> 02:28:28,720
Speaker 1: like there, the U s has an incentive just to

2578
02:28:28,800 --> 02:28:33,080
Speaker 1: stabilize US Chinese relations in part because it's economically like

2579
02:28:33,200 --> 02:28:34,840
Speaker 1: tied to both of these countries. But when something goes

2580
02:28:34,920 --> 02:28:37,880
Speaker 1: really wrong in US China relations, like for example, after

2581
02:28:37,920 --> 02:28:39,879
Speaker 1: Tianna Man where you know, and I think it's also

2582
02:28:39,920 --> 02:28:43,200
Speaker 1: worth noting like from from the period like basically from

2583
02:28:43,280 --> 02:28:46,440
Speaker 1: when China invades Vietnam and even before that from but

2584
02:28:46,520 --> 02:28:51,440
Speaker 1: from when China invades Vietnam in up until Tienamen, the

2585
02:28:51,520 --> 02:28:55,119
Speaker 1: US China relations are really good. Like the the US

2586
02:28:55,200 --> 02:28:56,879
Speaker 1: is seen as like an ally against the evil at

2587
02:28:56,920 --> 02:28:59,840
Speaker 1: Soviet evil Empire like all this, and you know, but

2588
02:29:00,040 --> 02:29:03,040
Speaker 1: gentlemen makes things go really badly because like the the

2589
02:29:03,120 --> 02:29:05,400
Speaker 1: only thing in American ally can possibly do that will

2590
02:29:05,400 --> 02:29:07,080
Speaker 1: sour the American press on them is to shoot a

2591
02:29:07,080 --> 02:29:08,840
Speaker 1: bunch of students in front of the American press corps

2592
02:29:09,320 --> 02:29:11,760
Speaker 1: like that. That's literally the only thing you could possibly do,

2593
02:29:12,080 --> 02:29:14,720
Speaker 1: Like you can, you can do actual genocides and the

2594
02:29:14,800 --> 02:29:16,720
Speaker 1: US press corps won't care. But if you shoot a

2595
02:29:16,720 --> 02:29:18,240
Speaker 1: bunch of students right in front of you, they will

2596
02:29:18,280 --> 02:29:22,480
Speaker 1: get very mad. And you know, okay times we've we've

2597
02:29:22,560 --> 02:29:28,960
Speaker 1: avoided doing that in minima. Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah,

2598
02:29:29,800 --> 02:29:34,039
Speaker 1: it's it's it's grim, lots lots of lots of yeah.

2599
02:29:35,400 --> 02:29:37,000
Speaker 1: But you know the consequence of this is like, yeah,

2600
02:29:37,080 --> 02:29:39,080
Speaker 1: when something goes really wrong in US China relations, you

2601
02:29:39,120 --> 02:29:41,600
Speaker 1: get China starts doing stabler rattling at Taiwan and the

2602
02:29:41,640 --> 02:29:43,720
Speaker 1: effects of this on Taiwan ease politics and also just

2603
02:29:43,720 --> 02:29:47,680
Speaker 1: sort of what's been happening inside of Taiwan is really weird.

2604
02:29:48,240 --> 02:29:50,720
Speaker 1: So the CAMT, who have been again like the militantly

2605
02:29:50,720 --> 02:29:53,160
Speaker 1: anti communist party for half essentially for half a century,

2606
02:29:53,200 --> 02:29:55,600
Speaker 1: are suddenly the fashion that once closer ties with this ECP.

2607
02:29:57,680 --> 02:30:01,040
Speaker 1: And the product of this is that the KMT and

2608
02:30:01,080 --> 02:30:03,680
Speaker 1: the smaller like hardcore pro Utification Party has become known

2609
02:30:03,720 --> 02:30:06,040
Speaker 1: as the Pan Blues. And the Pan Blues are the

2610
02:30:06,080 --> 02:30:08,960
Speaker 1: people who like want closer relationship with China and don't

2611
02:30:08,959 --> 02:30:11,400
Speaker 1: want closer relations with like the West. It's like the

2612
02:30:11,520 --> 02:30:16,200
Speaker 1: U s et etcetera. UM. And their opposition group is

2613
02:30:16,720 --> 02:30:19,800
Speaker 1: this reposition progressive opposition groups, which are just composed of

2614
02:30:19,800 --> 02:30:23,000
Speaker 1: the groups that opposed the camptis military dictatorship. And these

2615
02:30:23,080 --> 02:30:26,119
Speaker 1: groups form well, okay, they form a couple of parties.

2616
02:30:26,160 --> 02:30:28,000
Speaker 1: The big party. The first party they form, which is

2617
02:30:28,000 --> 02:30:30,439
Speaker 1: the biggest one by far, is called the Democratic Progressive

2618
02:30:30,480 --> 02:30:33,160
Speaker 1: Party or the d p P. And the DP panis

2619
02:30:33,240 --> 02:30:35,440
Speaker 1: allies which include some leftist parties I think, like the

2620
02:30:35,480 --> 02:30:38,040
Speaker 1: green parties in this coalition. Uh, there's also these like

2621
02:30:38,200 --> 02:30:41,600
Speaker 1: smaller like radical pro independent parties. UM. They become known

2622
02:30:41,640 --> 02:30:45,680
Speaker 1: as the Pan Greens. And this is like to this day,

2623
02:30:45,760 --> 02:30:47,879
Speaker 1: this is like the main dividing line in Taiwanese politics.

2624
02:30:47,959 --> 02:30:50,320
Speaker 1: You have the conservative Pan Blues you favor closer relations

2625
02:30:50,400 --> 02:30:53,120
Speaker 1: with China, and the Pan Green progressives you favor like

2626
02:30:53,200 --> 02:30:57,400
Speaker 1: closer relations with democracies. And also I think importantly, the

2627
02:30:58,600 --> 02:31:01,360
Speaker 1: the Pan Greens had this kind of like are the

2628
02:31:01,360 --> 02:31:03,080
Speaker 1: people who are in favor of like there being a

2629
02:31:03,160 --> 02:31:07,720
Speaker 1: distinct Taiwanese national identity, and the Pan Blues are kind

2630
02:31:07,720 --> 02:31:09,440
Speaker 1: of more suspect of that because again, like you know,

2631
02:31:09,480 --> 02:31:11,680
Speaker 1: their basis the KMT right, they want closer sizes with China,

2632
02:31:11,720 --> 02:31:15,360
Speaker 1: and closer sizes with China means not having like a

2633
02:31:15,440 --> 02:31:18,280
Speaker 1: distinct Twani's identity that's separate from China. And Okay, I'm

2634
02:31:18,520 --> 02:31:21,000
Speaker 1: enormously oversimplifying this, and people who are experts in this

2635
02:31:21,080 --> 02:31:22,560
Speaker 1: will like this part of it, will be like it's

2636
02:31:22,560 --> 02:31:24,560
Speaker 1: more complicated than that, and it is this is This

2637
02:31:24,640 --> 02:31:26,959
Speaker 1: is the simples explanation I could give you that people

2638
02:31:27,000 --> 02:31:31,600
Speaker 1: will understand. Like I I was, like, I was debating

2639
02:31:31,640 --> 02:31:34,120
Speaker 1: whether I even wanted to talk about like the Pan

2640
02:31:34,200 --> 02:31:39,000
Speaker 1: Blue like closer ties with China versus paying Green like

2641
02:31:39,040 --> 02:31:41,280
Speaker 1: closer ties with the West thing at all, because it's

2642
02:31:41,360 --> 02:31:46,600
Speaker 1: confusing and people probably won't remember it. But yeah, I mean,

2643
02:31:46,800 --> 02:31:48,440
Speaker 1: you know, if you want to understand tiwan these politics

2644
02:31:48,480 --> 02:31:51,480
Speaker 1: at all, like this is the line you have to take. No,

2645
02:31:51,600 --> 02:31:53,160
Speaker 1: I think it's important to at least throw out the

2646
02:31:53,640 --> 02:31:55,520
Speaker 1: people are gonna hear if they're going to engage in

2647
02:31:55,600 --> 02:32:01,440
Speaker 1: any discussion beyond like what has his tweeting and I'm, I'm, I'm,

2648
02:32:01,440 --> 02:32:03,720
Speaker 1: I'm gonna also like I'm gonna like lay my cards

2649
02:32:03,760 --> 02:32:05,840
Speaker 1: on the table so people don't understand my political position

2650
02:32:05,920 --> 02:32:07,840
Speaker 1: on this um. And my political position is one that

2651
02:32:07,840 --> 02:32:10,680
Speaker 1: pisces off literally everyone, which is that like, I'm not

2652
02:32:11,400 --> 02:32:14,000
Speaker 1: like a DPP supporter, Like I'm not one of the

2653
02:32:14,040 --> 02:32:18,360
Speaker 1: sort of like progressive like groups. I'm not in this

2654
02:32:18,440 --> 02:32:20,440
Speaker 1: sort of like I'm not really kind of like in

2655
02:32:20,520 --> 02:32:22,400
Speaker 1: this sort of like I wanted dependance camp. I'm not

2656
02:32:22,480 --> 02:32:25,800
Speaker 1: really like a DVP person. I I don't know, like,

2657
02:32:26,959 --> 02:32:28,800
Speaker 1: but I'm also not a KMT person, like because the

2658
02:32:29,360 --> 02:32:33,640
Speaker 1: KMT are capitalist reactionaries. Um. But I also like, okay,

2659
02:32:34,840 --> 02:32:37,240
Speaker 1: like I'm i'm, I'm, I'm gonna do my critique of

2660
02:32:37,240 --> 02:32:38,760
Speaker 1: the DPP and then I'm gonna sort of walk it

2661
02:32:38,800 --> 02:32:42,320
Speaker 1: back a little bit. I think that Taiwanese progressives in

2662
02:32:42,360 --> 02:32:44,400
Speaker 1: general are waged you close to the American security state

2663
02:32:44,480 --> 02:32:45,800
Speaker 1: for me to want anything to do with them. And

2664
02:32:45,879 --> 02:32:49,880
Speaker 1: the ones who aren't, like, okay, the Taiwanese left, like

2665
02:32:50,120 --> 02:32:53,000
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, get your ship together. Taiwan's most famous anarchist

2666
02:32:53,120 --> 02:32:57,320
Speaker 1: is literally a government minister. Like this, This is how

2667
02:32:57,400 --> 02:33:02,920
Speaker 1: funny the Taiwanes's left is like like like like these people, God,

2668
02:33:03,000 --> 02:33:05,880
Speaker 1: I'm enormously frustrated by Like people couldn't develop, like a

2669
02:33:06,000 --> 02:33:08,480
Speaker 1: left to the people, couldn't develop a national class analysis.

2670
02:33:08,560 --> 02:33:09,880
Speaker 1: You beat them over the head with a copy of

2671
02:33:09,920 --> 02:33:15,520
Speaker 1: capital Um. And okay, like I think, like Taiwanese progressives

2672
02:33:15,560 --> 02:33:17,360
Speaker 1: will point out, and I think this is fair that

2673
02:33:17,440 --> 02:33:19,840
Speaker 1: it's very easy to criticize like allying with the U

2674
02:33:19,959 --> 02:33:21,560
Speaker 1: S when it's not your ass in the firing line

2675
02:33:21,600 --> 02:33:24,320
Speaker 1: of Chinese rockets, which is true. It is much easier

2676
02:33:24,360 --> 02:33:26,440
Speaker 1: to criticize the US when the when the rifles being

2677
02:33:26,440 --> 02:33:28,680
Speaker 1: pointed in your face are American rifles, then when it's

2678
02:33:28,760 --> 02:33:32,720
Speaker 1: you know, Chinese soldiers pointing Chinese rifles. And this is

2679
02:33:32,760 --> 02:33:35,039
Speaker 1: a big part of what Chwanese politics are so fucked um.

2680
02:33:35,120 --> 02:33:37,840
Speaker 1: Things get reduced at this sort of like democracy versus

2681
02:33:37,840 --> 02:33:40,880
Speaker 1: authoritarian US versus China, like taiwanies and entity versus Chinese

2682
02:33:40,920 --> 02:33:44,080
Speaker 1: identity to less extent like binary. But it's like okay,

2683
02:33:44,680 --> 02:33:48,039
Speaker 1: like my family is Taiwanese, but like I was born here,

2684
02:33:48,280 --> 02:33:49,880
Speaker 1: I grew up here, and you know, I know, I

2685
02:33:50,000 --> 02:33:52,960
Speaker 1: know what American democracy looks like. It's the Army hiring

2686
02:33:53,080 --> 02:33:56,640
Speaker 1: Eric Prince to slaughter Rockey civilians in Baghdad. And you know,

2687
02:33:56,800 --> 02:33:58,160
Speaker 1: I also know what you know. I have a bunch

2688
02:33:58,160 --> 02:34:00,680
Speaker 1: of family in China too. I know what Chinese ratarianism

2689
02:34:00,720 --> 02:34:03,119
Speaker 1: looks like. It's the CCP hiring Eric Prince ability trading

2690
02:34:03,160 --> 02:34:08,120
Speaker 1: basis for mass and tonament camp guards John like you know, okay,

2691
02:34:08,520 --> 02:34:12,959
Speaker 1: And the only actual like political solution that will ever

2692
02:34:13,080 --> 02:34:16,800
Speaker 1: get anywhere is to fight both of them, a position

2693
02:34:16,879 --> 02:34:20,880
Speaker 1: that is extremely unpopular literally everywhere. And like you know,

2694
02:34:21,080 --> 02:34:23,879
Speaker 1: I I think they're like the progressives have a good

2695
02:34:23,959 --> 02:34:25,960
Speaker 1: argument that that you know, this isn't this isn't a

2696
02:34:26,000 --> 02:34:28,680
Speaker 1: line they have the luxury of taking right because they

2697
02:34:28,800 --> 02:34:30,880
Speaker 1: they they have they have an immediate enemy, and they

2698
02:34:30,959 --> 02:34:33,320
Speaker 1: they're going to do whatever they have to not get invaded.

2699
02:34:33,400 --> 02:34:36,240
Speaker 1: And that means allying with people who like I want

2700
02:34:36,280 --> 02:34:39,760
Speaker 1: to overthrow and see liquidated as a class. And like

2701
02:34:39,959 --> 02:34:43,160
Speaker 1: I I understand why they think that I also am

2702
02:34:43,200 --> 02:34:46,520
Speaker 1: not them. So yeah, this is this is this is

2703
02:34:46,560 --> 02:34:49,400
Speaker 1: me laying my cards on the table. And I think

2704
02:34:49,440 --> 02:34:51,080
Speaker 1: also like this goes back to the whole sort of

2705
02:34:51,160 --> 02:34:53,320
Speaker 1: like Settler state question, right, which is the sort of

2706
02:34:53,400 --> 02:34:56,199
Speaker 1: unresolved political question in the U s, Taiwan and China,

2707
02:34:56,360 --> 02:35:00,320
Speaker 1: Like no actual major political force has like committed itself

2708
02:35:00,360 --> 02:35:03,720
Speaker 1: to destroying the settler state and returning indigenous sovereignty. Uh,

2709
02:35:03,920 --> 02:35:06,840
Speaker 1: like two indigenous people, and you can't have like any

2710
02:35:06,920 --> 02:35:09,080
Speaker 1: kind of liberatory politics in a settler state without that.

2711
02:35:11,400 --> 02:35:14,000
Speaker 1: But on the other hands, like okay, the actual politics

2712
02:35:14,040 --> 02:35:17,000
Speaker 1: of Timani's diigenous people is really complicated, Like it doesn't

2713
02:35:17,160 --> 02:35:19,200
Speaker 1: work in the same way that like indigenous politics in

2714
02:35:19,240 --> 02:35:22,200
Speaker 1: the US does for example, like different true, I mean,

2715
02:35:22,240 --> 02:35:23,800
Speaker 1: and this is also true in the US, like different

2716
02:35:23,840 --> 02:35:26,600
Speaker 1: tribes and different relations to sort of indigenous nationalism. Like

2717
02:35:27,160 --> 02:35:31,040
Speaker 1: and another thing that that's true about um the that

2718
02:35:31,200 --> 02:35:33,480
Speaker 1: that that that that's true about Timany's indigenous people is

2719
02:35:33,520 --> 02:35:35,320
Speaker 1: that a lot of them vote for the KMT. And

2720
02:35:35,680 --> 02:35:37,120
Speaker 1: they do this for a couple of reasons, one of

2721
02:35:37,160 --> 02:35:40,360
Speaker 1: which is because the KMT has this like really really

2722
02:35:40,440 --> 02:35:43,200
Speaker 1: powerful and eccentric patronage network that they've been running for

2723
02:35:43,360 --> 02:35:45,440
Speaker 1: literally like basically since they got into the island. They've

2724
02:35:45,440 --> 02:35:48,160
Speaker 1: been running this patriots network and this allowed them to

2725
02:35:48,240 --> 02:35:51,240
Speaker 1: do like real incredibly intense and powerful based building in

2726
02:35:51,400 --> 02:35:54,520
Speaker 1: indigenous communities. Right, Like they're like the GDP are the

2727
02:35:54,560 --> 02:35:57,280
Speaker 1: people who like distribute like okay that they have like

2728
02:35:57,320 --> 02:35:58,720
Speaker 1: a center and right, and you go there and they

2729
02:35:58,760 --> 02:36:01,600
Speaker 1: get they give you food, right like they this this

2730
02:36:01,760 --> 02:36:04,720
Speaker 1: this is the place where you get your like sesame oil. Right.

2731
02:36:05,120 --> 02:36:06,960
Speaker 1: And then also there's there's the second layer of the

2732
02:36:07,000 --> 02:36:08,520
Speaker 1: Pictures network, right, is like if you want to get

2733
02:36:08,520 --> 02:36:11,320
Speaker 1: a job, you join the KMT, and so they have

2734
02:36:11,400 --> 02:36:13,360
Speaker 1: these they have these really deep sort of political roots

2735
02:36:13,400 --> 02:36:17,200
Speaker 1: in that sense. And then also, um, the CAMT does

2736
02:36:17,280 --> 02:36:20,040
Speaker 1: this thing where they're like, hey, look, the DPP is

2737
02:36:20,120 --> 02:36:22,600
Speaker 1: doing settler nationalism, like hey, these are the people who

2738
02:36:22,680 --> 02:36:25,120
Speaker 1: colonized you, like fuck them, like you should alley with

2739
02:36:25,240 --> 02:36:28,680
Speaker 1: us instead, which is true, Like like it is true,

2740
02:36:28,800 --> 02:36:32,760
Speaker 1: and like I think, I don't know, like Taiwanese progressives

2741
02:36:32,959 --> 02:36:35,680
Speaker 1: kind of like tap dance around this, but like yeah,

2742
02:36:35,720 --> 02:36:37,200
Speaker 1: like it is true that the sort of like Han

2743
02:36:37,280 --> 02:36:40,400
Speaker 1: Taiwanese identity is less sort of settler nationalism. But like

2744
02:36:40,560 --> 02:36:42,600
Speaker 1: also this is true with the KMT as well, Like

2745
02:36:42,640 --> 02:36:46,120
Speaker 1: the CAMT are also was settler nationalism, like you know,

2746
02:36:46,360 --> 02:36:50,760
Speaker 1: like they conquered the island and ruled as you know, okay,

2747
02:36:51,120 --> 02:36:53,280
Speaker 1: and and you'll you'll you'll try you'll also see people

2748
02:36:53,320 --> 02:36:55,240
Speaker 1: who will take this argument and try to argue that

2749
02:36:55,280 --> 02:36:58,199
Speaker 1: indigenous people voting for the KMT means that indigenous people

2750
02:36:58,200 --> 02:37:00,959
Speaker 1: support China invading Taiwan. And this is just comically wrong,

2751
02:37:01,120 --> 02:37:04,280
Speaker 1: Like they're just they are lying to you. Indigenous people

2752
02:37:04,280 --> 02:37:06,640
Speaker 1: in Taiwan, like literally everyone else in Taiwan do not

2753
02:37:06,680 --> 02:37:09,320
Speaker 1: support being ruled by China, and the argument that a

2754
02:37:09,400 --> 02:37:11,760
Speaker 1: Chinese occupation of Taiwan is somehow less of a settler

2755
02:37:11,800 --> 02:37:14,119
Speaker 1: state than the current system is just like comically propaganda

2756
02:37:14,160 --> 02:37:21,040
Speaker 1: bullshit and yeah, China, Yeah that's not being kind. Yeah,

2757
02:37:21,800 --> 02:37:24,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get into like this a little bit too, right,

2758
02:37:24,840 --> 02:37:26,320
Speaker 1: which is okay, So like I've been trying to be

2759
02:37:26,360 --> 02:37:28,520
Speaker 1: fair and balanced here, right, like I have been giving

2760
02:37:28,600 --> 02:37:31,039
Speaker 1: you mi critique of taiwee Chiwanese progressivism. This is going

2761
02:37:31,080 --> 02:37:34,000
Speaker 1: to piss off a lot of people. But like having

2762
02:37:34,040 --> 02:37:37,320
Speaker 1: said all of this, China invading Taiwan would be really

2763
02:37:37,720 --> 02:37:41,000
Speaker 1: really really bad, Like I cannot emphasize enough how bad

2764
02:37:41,080 --> 02:37:43,800
Speaker 1: this would be. Like okay, so Taiwan is like a

2765
02:37:43,879 --> 02:37:46,560
Speaker 1: regular regular settler borgead democracy with like all of the

2766
02:37:46,600 --> 02:37:48,800
Speaker 1: sort of good and bad things about Bushwa democracies, which

2767
02:37:48,800 --> 02:37:51,560
Speaker 1: we're all familiar with, right, like we understand what is

2768
02:37:51,560 --> 02:37:54,840
Speaker 1: a learned democracy is um, to be fair, the modern

2769
02:37:54,879 --> 02:37:57,440
Speaker 1: Taiwanese government is like infinitely less violent than the modern

2770
02:37:57,440 --> 02:38:02,440
Speaker 1: American government. Like like the I I looked like the

2771
02:38:03,560 --> 02:38:07,080
Speaker 1: prison population in like relative population in Taiwan is like

2772
02:38:07,480 --> 02:38:09,160
Speaker 1: I think it's like an eighth of the of what

2773
02:38:09,200 --> 02:38:12,200
Speaker 1: the American prison population is, right, Like, it's it's not like,

2774
02:38:12,440 --> 02:38:15,080
Speaker 1: you know, okay, it's it's like Taiwan is not like

2775
02:38:15,280 --> 02:38:16,600
Speaker 1: a sort of like it's like Taiwan is not a

2776
02:38:16,640 --> 02:38:20,760
Speaker 1: socialist state, right, but it's also like, you know, better

2777
02:38:20,840 --> 02:38:22,600
Speaker 1: in the U s which is an incredibly low bar

2778
02:38:22,760 --> 02:38:24,120
Speaker 1: that like you could trip and fall over it, but like,

2779
02:38:24,240 --> 02:38:27,320
Speaker 1: you know, okay, it's it's better in the US. Um. Yeah,

2780
02:38:27,840 --> 02:38:29,920
Speaker 1: you know, it's closer to like Sweden or something in

2781
02:38:30,040 --> 02:38:31,560
Speaker 1: terms of violence. But I think is also a good

2782
02:38:31,840 --> 02:38:34,640
Speaker 1: comparison because Sweden also has an indigenous population called the Sami,

2783
02:38:34,800 --> 02:38:39,880
Speaker 1: and I all Swedish leftists will studiously never admit that

2784
02:38:39,920 --> 02:38:43,080
Speaker 1: they exist or talk about them at all. So okay, again,

2785
02:38:43,120 --> 02:38:44,920
Speaker 1: this is not a stateless class society. But it's also

2786
02:38:45,040 --> 02:38:47,720
Speaker 1: like like since since since the CAMT has been disarmed,

2787
02:38:47,920 --> 02:38:49,880
Speaker 1: Like this is not one of like the world's great

2788
02:38:49,879 --> 02:38:54,320
Speaker 1: purveyors of violence, right, Like it's not the US. UM. China,

2789
02:38:54,360 --> 02:38:57,920
Speaker 1: on the other hand, is a ferociously reactionary, capitalist settler dictatorship,

2790
02:38:58,240 --> 02:39:00,640
Speaker 1: and this is something that Americans have very little experience with.

2791
02:39:00,920 --> 02:39:04,440
Speaker 1: UM For a long time, people argue that, okay, like

2792
02:39:04,600 --> 02:39:07,280
Speaker 1: if if if China, like if Taiwan became a part

2793
02:39:07,320 --> 02:39:10,640
Speaker 1: of China, Taiwan would get some kind of relationship similar

2794
02:39:10,680 --> 02:39:12,480
Speaker 1: to what Hong Kong has were like they were free

2795
02:39:12,480 --> 02:39:15,760
Speaker 1: elections and union organizing and free speech is legal. But

2796
02:39:15,959 --> 02:39:18,680
Speaker 1: you know, twenty nteing happens. Yeah right, you know, I

2797
02:39:18,720 --> 02:39:22,039
Speaker 1: mean even in Taiwan, like the I'm sorry, not even

2798
02:39:22,120 --> 02:39:23,920
Speaker 1: even in Hong Kong, right, the extent to which like

2799
02:39:24,040 --> 02:39:27,080
Speaker 1: you know, like union organizing and free association and free

2800
02:39:27,080 --> 02:39:31,080
Speaker 1: press existed. We're like and again like Hong Kong also,

2801
02:39:31,120 --> 02:39:32,560
Speaker 1: and I want to point this out, like the CCP

2802
02:39:32,680 --> 02:39:34,400
Speaker 1: has been strengthening this the entire time they were there.

2803
02:39:34,560 --> 02:39:36,560
Speaker 1: Hong Kong is the only place on earth for corporations

2804
02:39:36,560 --> 02:39:39,640
Speaker 1: have the right to vote and they vote for the

2805
02:39:39,680 --> 02:39:44,000
Speaker 1: ccpeach Like it's so okay, this is this is great,

2806
02:39:44,000 --> 02:39:45,840
Speaker 1: but you know twenty en happens, right, And guess what now,

2807
02:39:45,920 --> 02:39:48,600
Speaker 1: Hong Kong has National Security Law, which allows the government

2808
02:39:48,640 --> 02:39:50,959
Speaker 1: to rescue literally for posting on Twitter that you don't

2809
02:39:51,000 --> 02:39:55,240
Speaker 1: think that China should control Hong Kong. UM Secretary Secretary

2810
02:39:55,280 --> 02:39:58,920
Speaker 1: for Security in Hong Kong, Chris Tang said earlier this

2811
02:39:59,080 --> 02:40:02,320
Speaker 1: week that criticizing the government with the intention to provoke

2812
02:40:02,520 --> 02:40:07,200
Speaker 1: quote pretention to provoke hatred quote between the classes was

2813
02:40:07,240 --> 02:40:10,920
Speaker 1: a violation of the National Security Law. A position that

2814
02:40:11,360 --> 02:40:15,240
Speaker 1: if actually like that, that if actually like like this,

2815
02:40:15,520 --> 02:40:18,119
Speaker 1: if you take this position, this would outlaw in its

2816
02:40:18,320 --> 02:40:22,480
Speaker 1: entirety all socialist organizing in Hong Kong, because again, anything

2817
02:40:22,560 --> 02:40:27,800
Speaker 1: that attempts to provoke hatred between the classes ISA is illegal. Yeah,

2818
02:40:28,879 --> 02:40:35,160
Speaker 1: and yes, some pana era of liberal Democrats existence within. Yeah,

2819
02:40:35,160 --> 02:40:36,440
Speaker 1: and this is this is the moneth and like you know,

2820
02:40:36,520 --> 02:40:38,240
Speaker 1: I mean again, like people people talk about this lot

2821
02:40:38,240 --> 02:40:39,840
Speaker 1: like Hong Kong is one of the world's most neoliberal

2822
02:40:39,879 --> 02:40:42,120
Speaker 1: cities and this is top has taken it over. And

2823
02:40:42,879 --> 02:40:44,920
Speaker 1: oh hey, guess what they're They're they're living out the

2824
02:40:44,959 --> 02:40:47,000
Speaker 1: neoliberal dream of making it illegal to try to do

2825
02:40:47,120 --> 02:40:49,560
Speaker 1: any like try to do like class war stuff. Um,

2826
02:40:50,120 --> 02:40:52,320
Speaker 1: one of the things that happens immediately after national security

2827
02:40:52,360 --> 02:40:54,840
Speaker 1: laws that it's used to destroy China's China's Independent Trade

2828
02:40:54,879 --> 02:40:58,800
Speaker 1: Union Federation. And this brings us to like the sort

2829
02:40:58,840 --> 02:41:02,440
Speaker 1: of class perspective on this um independent union organizing and

2830
02:41:02,560 --> 02:41:05,040
Speaker 1: China is illegal. And when I say it's illegal, I

2831
02:41:05,080 --> 02:41:07,480
Speaker 1: don't mean illegal in the sense of like jaywalking. We're like, okay,

2832
02:41:07,520 --> 02:41:09,640
Speaker 1: if someone if if like a cops sees you jaywalking,

2833
02:41:09,680 --> 02:41:12,360
Speaker 1: they might arrest you. Like if you try to do

2834
02:41:12,440 --> 02:41:15,520
Speaker 1: independent union organizing in China, men will show up to

2835
02:41:15,600 --> 02:41:17,200
Speaker 1: your house in the middle of the night and you

2836
02:41:17,240 --> 02:41:19,240
Speaker 1: will disappear for three months until a video of you

2837
02:41:19,360 --> 02:41:21,640
Speaker 1: with two very large men standing just out of camera

2838
02:41:21,760 --> 02:41:24,240
Speaker 1: range appears in which you recan't you're organizing and apologize

2839
02:41:24,240 --> 02:41:27,760
Speaker 1: for your crimes, like to to to get a sense

2840
02:41:27,760 --> 02:41:29,680
Speaker 1: of the level of oppression we're dealing with here to

2841
02:41:29,920 --> 02:41:35,320
Speaker 1: Chinese leftists named Louis You You and Leading You recorded

2842
02:41:35,400 --> 02:41:38,240
Speaker 1: and published a series of protests like the they basically

2843
02:41:38,320 --> 02:41:40,879
Speaker 1: they had they on the Chinese social media, like they

2844
02:41:41,160 --> 02:41:44,360
Speaker 1: posted this like record basically of strikes and protests that

2845
02:41:44,400 --> 02:41:46,080
Speaker 1: were happening in the country every day. So like literally

2846
02:41:46,120 --> 02:41:48,960
Speaker 1: all they're doing is they are documenting the strikes and

2847
02:41:49,000 --> 02:41:51,280
Speaker 1: protests that are happening and collecting data about them and

2848
02:41:51,360 --> 02:41:55,360
Speaker 1: posting it. Um in the police showed up to lose house,

2849
02:41:55,400 --> 02:41:57,600
Speaker 1: put a bag over his head and dragged him away

2850
02:41:57,640 --> 02:42:00,720
Speaker 1: to a dragging away to a jail cell. Lou spent

2851
02:42:00,840 --> 02:42:04,400
Speaker 1: four years in prison. Lee got two years, and the

2852
02:42:04,440 --> 02:42:07,840
Speaker 1: two of them never saw each other again. So again,

2853
02:42:08,200 --> 02:42:11,800
Speaker 1: this this is what happens. If you literally just report

2854
02:42:12,280 --> 02:42:15,960
Speaker 1: on the wildcat strikes that are happening, someone will put

2855
02:42:16,000 --> 02:42:17,680
Speaker 1: a bag over your head and you will go to

2856
02:42:17,760 --> 02:42:22,320
Speaker 1: prison for four years. Like it is. It is like

2857
02:42:22,520 --> 02:42:25,560
Speaker 1: the situation for organized labor of any kind of anyone

2858
02:42:25,640 --> 02:42:30,840
Speaker 1: trying to do. Union organizing in China is unbelievably dire. UM. Now, China,

2859
02:42:31,200 --> 02:42:33,240
Speaker 1: and this is when I'm talking about, here's the independent

2860
02:42:33,320 --> 02:42:36,880
Speaker 1: union organizing. China has an official trade union federation. Um,

2861
02:42:37,240 --> 02:42:39,560
Speaker 1: the trade Unifederation China has such a fucking joke. That

2862
02:42:39,720 --> 02:42:41,920
Speaker 1: is literally a matter of academic debates, Like there are

2863
02:42:41,959 --> 02:42:44,480
Speaker 1: academic papers arguing about whether or not it even actually

2864
02:42:44,560 --> 02:42:46,959
Speaker 1: counts as a union. And this has been true since

2865
02:42:46,959 --> 02:42:49,400
Speaker 1: the late nineteen fifties, when the CCP decided that oh hey,

2866
02:42:49,440 --> 02:42:51,640
Speaker 1: this trade union is there to represent the party and

2867
02:42:51,720 --> 02:42:55,400
Speaker 1: not workers, and its roles to mediate between the you know,

2868
02:42:55,560 --> 02:42:58,320
Speaker 1: to mediate between the party and workers, not actually to

2869
02:42:58,400 --> 02:43:01,360
Speaker 1: you know, like represent them when they like when they

2870
02:43:01,440 --> 02:43:04,040
Speaker 1: have disputed with their bosses. So yeah, like they don't

2871
02:43:04,200 --> 02:43:06,480
Speaker 1: like they they don't. They don't go on strike like ever,

2872
02:43:07,200 --> 02:43:10,120
Speaker 1: like they they they they they they They exist as

2873
02:43:10,160 --> 02:43:12,360
Speaker 1: like another part of the party state, the goal of

2874
02:43:12,400 --> 02:43:14,280
Speaker 1: which is to make sure that bosses keep making money.

2875
02:43:14,840 --> 02:43:17,360
Speaker 1: If you try to work outside, if they will arrest you. Now,

2876
02:43:17,680 --> 02:43:20,800
Speaker 1: Taiwan is not like a shining workers paradise, right that

2877
02:43:20,879 --> 02:43:23,240
Speaker 1: the sort of vaunted semiconductor industry that everyone talks about

2878
02:43:23,280 --> 02:43:24,920
Speaker 1: is run by a bunch of workers getting the ship

2879
02:43:25,000 --> 02:43:27,359
Speaker 1: burned out of them by vats of acid. But conditions

2880
02:43:27,400 --> 02:43:30,200
Speaker 1: for the Chinese working class are even worse. Counties wages

2881
02:43:30,200 --> 02:43:32,960
Speaker 1: are higher China, Taiwan is better workplace protections. Again, you

2882
02:43:33,040 --> 02:43:36,720
Speaker 1: can legally organize unions. Uh. Meanwhile, in China there are

2883
02:43:36,760 --> 02:43:39,360
Speaker 1: famously suicide nets around Chinese factories because working for these

2884
02:43:39,400 --> 02:43:41,640
Speaker 1: places is so fucking awful that people would literally rather

2885
02:43:41,720 --> 02:43:44,240
Speaker 1: kill themselves and live in it. And you know, you

2886
02:43:44,320 --> 02:43:46,160
Speaker 1: can ask why is this happening, And the reason it's

2887
02:43:46,160 --> 02:43:47,480
Speaker 1: happening is that a lot of the stuff that is

2888
02:43:47,520 --> 02:43:50,200
Speaker 1: literally the worst fucking nightmare of the American left, things

2889
02:43:50,280 --> 02:43:53,200
Speaker 1: like your boss owning your apartment is just standard practice

2890
02:43:53,240 --> 02:43:54,400
Speaker 1: in China. This is this is just this is just

2891
02:43:54,520 --> 02:43:56,040
Speaker 1: what it's like to be a worker in China. Your

2892
02:43:56,040 --> 02:43:59,000
Speaker 1: boss owner apartments. You have literally hundreds of millions of

2893
02:43:59,040 --> 02:44:01,280
Speaker 1: people who live in these time any like they're called

2894
02:44:01,320 --> 02:44:06,000
Speaker 1: workers dormitories, which again often literally owned by like the

2895
02:44:06,080 --> 02:44:08,760
Speaker 1: owner of the factory they're in. You get like when

2896
02:44:08,800 --> 02:44:10,880
Speaker 1: when I say like the workers dormitories, right, it's not

2897
02:44:10,920 --> 02:44:13,240
Speaker 1: even like it's not even like an American dorm building

2898
02:44:13,360 --> 02:44:15,720
Speaker 1: right where like you you know you have like your

2899
02:44:15,760 --> 02:44:19,640
Speaker 1: own room. It's like it is yeah, like it's it's

2900
02:44:19,640 --> 02:44:22,080
Speaker 1: a bunch of people sleeping in cots, like like sleeping

2901
02:44:22,120 --> 02:44:24,920
Speaker 1: in bunk beds with like a fucking bucket next to

2902
02:44:24,959 --> 02:44:27,000
Speaker 1: them to go to the bathroom. Like it is. It

2903
02:44:27,200 --> 02:44:32,120
Speaker 1: is horrible. Um, you have like like the the I

2904
02:44:32,560 --> 02:44:34,320
Speaker 1: talked about this lot in this show. But again like

2905
02:44:34,840 --> 02:44:37,920
Speaker 1: literally there are paid a loans integrated into delivery apps

2906
02:44:38,800 --> 02:44:41,000
Speaker 1: like this. This is the level of capitalism that that

2907
02:44:41,120 --> 02:44:43,360
Speaker 1: China is, and like I'm not gonna like, I'm not

2908
02:44:43,440 --> 02:44:45,440
Speaker 1: gonna like argue that it's worse than the US. I

2909
02:44:45,520 --> 02:44:48,800
Speaker 1: think they're bad in different ways. Like they're there, there

2910
02:44:48,840 --> 02:44:50,280
Speaker 1: are there are third like the the U s IS

2911
02:44:50,320 --> 02:44:53,760
Speaker 1: incarceration system is like you know, like one of the

2912
02:44:53,920 --> 02:44:56,880
Speaker 1: great human evils in the entirety of human history. Right there,

2913
02:44:56,920 --> 02:44:58,760
Speaker 1: there are things that like the US is worse at

2914
02:44:58,840 --> 02:45:01,120
Speaker 1: like the Chinese police are a lot less likely just

2915
02:45:01,200 --> 02:45:04,560
Speaker 1: fucking murder you like you know, but like yes, but

2916
02:45:04,640 --> 02:45:07,840
Speaker 1: like China, it sucks to be a worker in China,

2917
02:45:08,000 --> 02:45:10,480
Speaker 1: Like it really sucks. And I can't emphasize this enough

2918
02:45:10,520 --> 02:45:12,720
Speaker 1: because I don't because people don't really understand this, like

2919
02:45:13,600 --> 02:45:16,320
Speaker 1: they they like people do not understand that. Again, like

2920
02:45:16,520 --> 02:45:20,199
Speaker 1: the normal Chinese schedule is called you work nine am

2921
02:45:20,240 --> 02:45:22,360
Speaker 1: to nine pm, six days a week. This is the

2922
02:45:22,520 --> 02:45:25,400
Speaker 1: normal schedule. Mostly a lot of workers like that. That

2923
02:45:25,520 --> 02:45:27,840
Speaker 1: that again that that that's like an average schedule. Most

2924
02:45:27,879 --> 02:45:32,160
Speaker 1: people work more than this seventy hours a week, right

2925
02:45:32,280 --> 02:45:34,400
Speaker 1: like it is it is it is a ship show.

2926
02:45:34,959 --> 02:45:38,680
Speaker 1: And yeah, if if Taiwan, if China invades Taiwan, that

2927
02:45:38,680 --> 02:45:40,520
Speaker 1: you addition to the Taiwanese working class are going to

2928
02:45:40,560 --> 02:45:42,840
Speaker 1: get worse. That is just a fact. Try like imposing

2929
02:45:43,280 --> 02:45:45,360
Speaker 1: Chinese law on Taiwan, which strengthened the power of the

2930
02:45:45,360 --> 02:45:48,080
Speaker 1: capitalist class a week in the proletariat um from from

2931
02:45:48,080 --> 02:45:50,200
Speaker 1: an indigenous respective, which we we've talked about this at

2932
02:45:50,280 --> 02:45:51,800
Speaker 1: length about you know, we talked about at length how

2933
02:45:51,800 --> 02:45:54,480
Speaker 1: the Taiwan system is not that good. But you know,

2934
02:45:54,760 --> 02:45:57,400
Speaker 1: it's not like it's a settler colony. There's some representation,

2935
02:45:57,720 --> 02:45:59,959
Speaker 1: but you know, it's not great. It is much better

2936
02:46:00,000 --> 02:46:02,959
Speaker 1: over the CCP system. The CCPs line on ethnic minorities

2937
02:46:03,120 --> 02:46:05,200
Speaker 1: is that if you're an ethnic minority in China, you're

2938
02:46:05,240 --> 02:46:06,960
Speaker 1: going to work in a Han factory, You're going to

2939
02:46:07,000 --> 02:46:09,360
Speaker 1: pick crops from Han owed fields. You're going to dance

2940
02:46:09,360 --> 02:46:11,160
Speaker 1: and smile for hon tourists. If you step out of line,

2941
02:46:11,160 --> 02:46:12,160
Speaker 1: you will be dragged out of your bed in the

2942
02:46:12,200 --> 02:46:13,760
Speaker 1: middle of the night and sent to a fucking camp.

2943
02:46:14,360 --> 02:46:16,000
Speaker 1: There are you know, like this is the thing that

2944
02:46:16,120 --> 02:46:18,760
Speaker 1: Americans sort of have similar experiences with. It's like, you know,

2945
02:46:18,879 --> 02:46:23,000
Speaker 1: you have immigration raids, you have raids on homeless encampments,

2946
02:46:23,760 --> 02:46:26,280
Speaker 1: but it's not that's and that that's like you know

2947
02:46:26,520 --> 02:46:29,040
Speaker 1: that that's a kind of experience that is somewhat similar

2948
02:46:29,080 --> 02:46:30,600
Speaker 1: to what it's like to live and change on but

2949
02:46:30,720 --> 02:46:33,200
Speaker 1: like it's not exactly the same. Like I I know

2950
02:46:33,360 --> 02:46:36,920
Speaker 1: people whose families are just fucking gone, Like the police

2951
02:46:36,959 --> 02:46:39,320
Speaker 1: showed up in the middle of the night, and their

2952
02:46:39,360 --> 02:46:41,520
Speaker 1: families are just gone. They've never seen them again, Like

2953
02:46:41,600 --> 02:46:43,280
Speaker 1: they're they're just gone. No no one knows where they are,

2954
02:46:43,400 --> 02:46:45,240
Speaker 1: no one knows who they're even alife. They're just finished.

2955
02:46:45,600 --> 02:46:47,240
Speaker 1: And if and if you think that this isn't going

2956
02:46:47,280 --> 02:46:49,920
Speaker 1: to happen to Taiwan's indigenous population, the moment they start

2957
02:46:49,959 --> 02:46:54,279
Speaker 1: talking about self determination, you are incredibly bafflingly, hopelessly naive.

2958
02:46:55,600 --> 02:46:57,120
Speaker 1: And you know, like like that there there's a lot

2959
02:46:57,160 --> 02:46:58,760
Speaker 1: of other ship that you can point to, right like

2960
02:47:00,000 --> 02:47:02,680
Speaker 1: for example, Taiwan has game marriage and China doesn't like

2961
02:47:03,520 --> 02:47:06,680
Speaker 1: the degree of press censorship, just like social media censorship

2962
02:47:06,720 --> 02:47:09,120
Speaker 1: in China that doesn't need some Taiwan is like absolutely absurd,

2963
02:47:09,520 --> 02:47:14,760
Speaker 1: Like you know, I I think like most like some

2964
02:47:14,879 --> 02:47:17,000
Speaker 1: people talking about press censorship in the US are like

2965
02:47:17,040 --> 02:47:19,160
Speaker 1: almost always right wing ship heads who were complaining about

2966
02:47:19,200 --> 02:47:22,119
Speaker 1: like they yelled a bunch of slurs, like in China,

2967
02:47:22,440 --> 02:47:24,440
Speaker 1: a very common thing that happens, like someone will be

2968
02:47:24,520 --> 02:47:26,640
Speaker 1: posting about a corrupt local official and then every single

2969
02:47:26,680 --> 02:47:27,920
Speaker 1: post about it will get to lead and if you

2970
02:47:27,959 --> 02:47:29,600
Speaker 1: try to post the guy's name of your post won't

2971
02:47:29,600 --> 02:47:31,879
Speaker 1: go up. And then any emoji that people were using

2972
02:47:31,920 --> 02:47:34,720
Speaker 1: in association with the corrupt local official like get blocked

2973
02:47:34,720 --> 02:47:37,680
Speaker 1: and you can't use the emotis anymore, and like you

2974
02:47:37,720 --> 02:47:40,240
Speaker 1: know and like and I it's it's almost like the

2975
02:47:40,440 --> 02:47:42,840
Speaker 1: level of censorship is almost comical to the extent where

2976
02:47:42,879 --> 02:47:46,039
Speaker 1: like people don't believe like in the US, like don't

2977
02:47:46,120 --> 02:47:48,440
Speaker 1: like you know when people people talk about like like oh,

2978
02:47:48,560 --> 02:47:52,119
Speaker 1: the the Chinese government isn't really banning get guys who

2979
02:47:52,160 --> 02:47:54,240
Speaker 1: look too feminine and gay guys from appearing in medians

2980
02:47:54,240 --> 02:47:56,800
Speaker 1: Like no, they are like they're they're, they're they're. I

2981
02:47:56,879 --> 02:47:59,920
Speaker 1: think I think it was a Beyonce concept that they're there.

2982
02:48:00,040 --> 02:48:01,640
Speaker 1: Or there was a very famous, like very funny thing

2983
02:48:01,680 --> 02:48:04,480
Speaker 1: that happens like a few months ago where there was

2984
02:48:04,520 --> 02:48:07,000
Speaker 1: this concert. I think it was a Beyonce concert, must be.

2985
02:48:07,959 --> 02:48:10,080
Speaker 1: I can't remember who it was, but like so there

2986
02:48:10,120 --> 02:48:11,720
Speaker 1: was a stream of it in China and there was

2987
02:48:11,760 --> 02:48:13,959
Speaker 1: a guy there was a censor who was like putting

2988
02:48:14,040 --> 02:48:16,520
Speaker 1: like one of those gray out censored bars, like over

2989
02:48:16,760 --> 02:48:19,000
Speaker 1: over the singers closed because they were they were considered

2990
02:48:19,040 --> 02:48:21,879
Speaker 1: too explicit. And she's just like moving this like dot

2991
02:48:22,040 --> 02:48:24,160
Speaker 1: of like censorship thing across the stage, trying to fall

2992
02:48:24,240 --> 02:48:26,640
Speaker 1: Like this is the level of bullshit that happens here,

2993
02:48:26,760 --> 02:48:29,600
Speaker 1: Like it's it's not a thing that like the US

2994
02:48:29,680 --> 02:48:33,000
Speaker 1: really has much reference for because like we don't experience,

2995
02:48:33,000 --> 02:48:34,199
Speaker 1: like this is not a thing that you don't experience

2996
02:48:34,200 --> 02:48:38,120
Speaker 1: you experience in the US. Like, Yeah, sometimes I like

2997
02:48:38,240 --> 02:48:41,800
Speaker 1: to think about these things in terms of like like

2998
02:48:42,040 --> 02:48:44,280
Speaker 1: like all people talk about oh Well and Huxley as

2999
02:48:44,320 --> 02:48:48,560
Speaker 1: these dystopian novels, right, and imparhaps people don't read those novels,

3000
02:48:49,160 --> 02:48:51,840
Speaker 1: but they love to quote them. And like in all

3001
02:48:51,879 --> 02:48:55,120
Speaker 1: we else, we have like a system which like keeps

3002
02:48:55,160 --> 02:48:57,600
Speaker 1: you quiet by pushing you down, right, and in Huxley's

3003
02:48:57,640 --> 02:49:00,320
Speaker 1: we have a system which keeps you quiet by keeping

3004
02:49:00,360 --> 02:49:03,360
Speaker 1: you happy with with drugs and such, and like it.

3005
02:49:03,480 --> 02:49:07,240
Speaker 1: Then it's important to recognize it that it both things

3006
02:49:07,280 --> 02:49:09,480
Speaker 1: can be bad, but the material conditions in the day

3007
02:49:09,560 --> 02:49:12,440
Speaker 1: to the life of people, especially marginalized people in one society,

3008
02:49:12,520 --> 02:49:17,560
Speaker 1: can be markedly better. Yeah, well and I think also,

3009
02:49:17,640 --> 02:49:20,400
Speaker 1: like yeah, like I think it's we're not like the

3010
02:49:21,000 --> 02:49:23,400
Speaker 1: ways in which the American like there there are similarities,

3011
02:49:23,400 --> 02:49:24,920
Speaker 1: but like yeah, like there are lots of ways in

3012
02:49:24,959 --> 02:49:27,440
Speaker 1: which the sort of Chinese system and the American system

3013
02:49:27,480 --> 02:49:31,720
Speaker 1: are differently bad. And that breaks people's brains because you

3014
02:49:31,800 --> 02:49:33,320
Speaker 1: get a lot of like you get you get a

3015
02:49:33,320 --> 02:49:35,280
Speaker 1: lot of Americans who are convinced to become convinced that

3016
02:49:35,320 --> 02:49:37,680
Speaker 1: like China as a socialist paradise. There's a Chinese version

3017
02:49:37,680 --> 02:49:39,280
Speaker 1: of this where like you get international students who come

3018
02:49:39,280 --> 02:49:40,720
Speaker 1: to the US for the first time and see an election,

3019
02:49:40,760 --> 02:49:43,000
Speaker 1: and they like lose their minds and are like absolutely

3020
02:49:43,040 --> 02:49:45,440
Speaker 1: convinced that like American democracy is like the only table

3021
02:49:45,440 --> 02:49:47,440
Speaker 1: political system and they read Hyak and they like lose

3022
02:49:47,560 --> 02:49:50,680
Speaker 1: They just like they become the Chinese version of tank You's,

3023
02:49:50,720 --> 02:49:53,560
Speaker 1: which are like weird near liberal people. And it's like, no,

3024
02:49:54,120 --> 02:49:57,840
Speaker 1: like I know, actually, in fact, none of these things

3025
02:49:57,879 --> 02:50:00,360
Speaker 1: are good. Both of these societies are just like not

3026
02:50:00,640 --> 02:50:02,600
Speaker 1: good to live in in any way, and like, you know,

3027
02:50:02,680 --> 02:50:04,560
Speaker 1: and I think that there's nothing I should mention here,

3028
02:50:04,879 --> 02:50:08,920
Speaker 1: like why all of this sort of like bullshit posturing

3029
02:50:09,000 --> 02:50:10,760
Speaker 1: is happening between the US and China right now, which

3030
02:50:10,800 --> 02:50:15,560
Speaker 1: is that like on on the American side, like Biden

3031
02:50:15,640 --> 02:50:17,160
Speaker 1: is trying to distract from the fact that the country

3032
02:50:17,200 --> 02:50:18,879
Speaker 1: is falling apart and there's a bunch of fascists trying

3033
02:50:18,879 --> 02:50:23,360
Speaker 1: to take over, and like, you know, like all of

3034
02:50:23,440 --> 02:50:27,200
Speaker 1: this bullshit is happening. China is trying to distract from

3035
02:50:27,200 --> 02:50:30,000
Speaker 1: the fact that they have nineteen percent youth unemployment right

3036
02:50:30,040 --> 02:50:34,520
Speaker 1: now and that like there are there are like cops

3037
02:50:34,600 --> 02:50:38,640
Speaker 1: dispersing people doing runs on banks because the it finally

3038
02:50:38,640 --> 02:50:40,480
Speaker 1: looks like the Chinese housing bubble is about to crack,

3039
02:50:40,760 --> 02:50:45,680
Speaker 1: Like it's you know, this sort of nationalist stuff is

3040
02:50:46,680 --> 02:50:48,800
Speaker 1: like for for for China in the US, it is

3041
02:50:48,920 --> 02:50:51,360
Speaker 1: this sort of game that they play that has a

3042
02:50:51,400 --> 02:50:53,920
Speaker 1: lot to do basically with pacifying their own internal populations.

3043
02:50:54,640 --> 02:50:58,680
Speaker 1: But you know, for everyone in Taiwan, like it's not

3044
02:50:58,800 --> 02:51:00,960
Speaker 1: a game. And that's that's the thing I think I

3045
02:51:01,040 --> 02:51:02,720
Speaker 1: want to close on, which is like the single most

3046
02:51:02,760 --> 02:51:05,440
Speaker 1: important thing here is that there is no way for

3047
02:51:05,560 --> 02:51:08,800
Speaker 1: China to take control of Taiwan except by war. Of

3048
02:51:08,840 --> 02:51:10,560
Speaker 1: the population does not want to be ruled by China.

3049
02:51:11,480 --> 02:51:14,280
Speaker 1: Of the population of Taiwan wants to status quo. If

3050
02:51:14,320 --> 02:51:17,720
Speaker 1: you try to force Chinese rule of Taiwan, the only

3051
02:51:17,760 --> 02:51:21,400
Speaker 1: way to do it is by war and season and

3052
02:51:21,520 --> 02:51:24,680
Speaker 1: controlling season, control of and occupying a place with twenty

3053
02:51:24,760 --> 02:51:27,400
Speaker 1: three and a half million people is going to be

3054
02:51:27,520 --> 02:51:29,120
Speaker 1: a blood bath. There's no other way to do it,

3055
02:51:29,720 --> 02:51:32,000
Speaker 1: even if you are I don't want to leave this

3056
02:51:32,040 --> 02:51:34,200
Speaker 1: as sort of a message to people who like who

3057
02:51:34,240 --> 02:51:36,800
Speaker 1: don't agree with me on this, which is that if

3058
02:51:36,840 --> 02:51:38,960
Speaker 1: you've gotten to the end of this and you genuinely

3059
02:51:39,040 --> 02:51:41,720
Speaker 1: believe that Taiwan is part of China, are you willing

3060
02:51:41,760 --> 02:51:44,000
Speaker 1: to watch your family get burned alive for that principle?

3061
02:51:44,720 --> 02:51:47,040
Speaker 1: Because that that that is what you are asking us

3062
02:51:47,160 --> 02:51:49,879
Speaker 1: to do. You are asking us to watch our families

3063
02:51:49,959 --> 02:51:52,840
Speaker 1: die for your belief about lines in a map. And

3064
02:51:53,000 --> 02:51:55,400
Speaker 1: if if you are not willing to accept the consequences

3065
02:51:55,440 --> 02:51:57,360
Speaker 1: of your belief personally, if you are not willing to

3066
02:51:57,440 --> 02:52:00,280
Speaker 1: see your family get obliterated by a fucking rocket, then

3067
02:52:00,360 --> 02:52:04,120
Speaker 1: don't push for it to happen to us. And yeah,

3068
02:52:04,240 --> 02:52:07,800
Speaker 1: that is that. That is type one one on one. Um, Please,

3069
02:52:08,000 --> 02:52:10,320
Speaker 1: for the love of God, stop doing this bullshit. I

3070
02:52:10,360 --> 02:52:15,600
Speaker 1: don't want my family to die. I yeah, yeah, I

3071
02:52:15,680 --> 02:52:18,480
Speaker 1: think that's very well said mate, I think a lot

3072
02:52:18,520 --> 02:52:21,560
Speaker 1: of people are so detached from the underground consequences so

3073
02:52:21,680 --> 02:52:26,520
Speaker 1: they're like theoretical on Twitter dot compositions that it can

3074
02:52:26,560 --> 02:52:29,000
Speaker 1: be very easy to be incredibly callous to people who

3075
02:52:29,080 --> 02:52:32,320
Speaker 1: have loved one skin in the game. Yeah, and I

3076
02:52:32,360 --> 02:52:34,800
Speaker 1: think I think this is a part of it. Like no,

3077
02:52:34,959 --> 02:52:37,560
Speaker 1: like people on Twitter posting about this that there have

3078
02:52:37,640 --> 02:52:39,440
Speaker 1: no stake in this whatsoever. It doesn't matter to them.

3079
02:52:39,480 --> 02:52:41,360
Speaker 1: If everyone on top, if everyone who lives and I

3080
02:52:41,440 --> 02:52:44,400
Speaker 1: one died tomorrow, it would have no material effected them whatsoever, right,

3081
02:52:44,480 --> 02:52:46,640
Speaker 1: Like the worst thing that would maybe happen to them,

3082
02:52:46,680 --> 02:52:47,920
Speaker 1: it was it would be harder for them to get

3083
02:52:47,920 --> 02:52:53,960
Speaker 1: graphics cards. Yeah, you entire family, like this is this

3084
02:52:54,080 --> 02:52:56,680
Speaker 1: is this is twenty three million people, an enormous number

3085
02:52:56,720 --> 02:52:58,600
Speaker 1: of whom are going to die if this thing happens.

3086
02:52:59,440 --> 02:53:06,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, like on like, unless you are committed enough

3087
02:53:06,040 --> 02:53:09,800
Speaker 1: to this to kill your own family, then fucking stop

3088
02:53:09,840 --> 02:53:14,800
Speaker 1: posting about it, because that that that like, if you

3089
02:53:14,840 --> 02:53:16,960
Speaker 1: were not willing to materially accept the consequences of your

3090
02:53:16,959 --> 02:53:20,160
Speaker 1: own position on yourself, then you shouldn't have it. Yeah,

3091
02:53:20,840 --> 02:53:26,520
Speaker 1: especially when you're pretending to be left is Yeah, Yeah,

3092
02:53:26,640 --> 02:53:29,720
Speaker 1: that's this is this is gonna make it happen Here's yeah,

3093
02:53:30,160 --> 02:53:35,440
Speaker 1: don't don't have a Chinese invasion of Taiwan happened here? Yeah,

3094
02:53:36,600 --> 02:53:41,080
Speaker 1: overthrow your local settler quality. Yeah it settling clonings is bad.

3095
02:53:41,160 --> 02:53:46,040
Speaker 1: That's the official stunt of Yeah. Actually, I don't. I'm

3096
02:53:46,080 --> 02:53:47,560
Speaker 1: not sure if we can legally. I think I think

3097
02:53:47,600 --> 02:53:49,560
Speaker 1: we cantally say this the official stance of cools of

3098
02:53:49,840 --> 02:53:51,840
Speaker 1: cool Zign Media. I'm pretty sure we can't legally say

3099
02:53:51,879 --> 02:53:58,039
Speaker 1: it's the official stance. Yeah, if you cut that down. Yeah, yeah,

3100
02:53:58,160 --> 02:54:03,520
Speaker 1: here are cool Zone Media. We don't endors set like colonialism. Yeah,

3101
02:54:03,680 --> 02:54:23,160
Speaker 1: don't do it. War is bad, don't rocket cities. Welcome

3102
02:54:23,160 --> 02:54:25,440
Speaker 1: to dig it happened here a podcaster. We occasionally have

3103
02:54:25,560 --> 02:54:29,800
Speaker 1: introductions and mostly we have this and yeah that it's

3104
02:54:29,840 --> 02:54:32,959
Speaker 1: it's the podcast. Things fall apart, Things come back together again,

3105
02:54:33,160 --> 02:54:36,320
Speaker 1: they fall apart again, we put them back together again. Yeah,

3106
02:54:36,520 --> 02:54:39,880
Speaker 1: you know, you know the drill um. Yeah. And with

3107
02:54:40,040 --> 02:54:44,720
Speaker 1: me is James Glow. James, Hello, and speaking of things

3108
02:54:44,840 --> 02:54:50,840
Speaker 1: falling apart, we're talking today about the what what what

3109
02:54:51,000 --> 02:54:53,720
Speaker 1: it looks like when this sort of the interconnectivity of

3110
02:54:53,760 --> 02:54:56,240
Speaker 1: the American judicial system comes apart under the weight of

3111
02:54:58,000 --> 02:55:01,800
Speaker 1: dueling abortion laws, and with us to talk about that

3112
02:55:02,120 --> 02:55:04,160
Speaker 1: is a lot of people who have written a lot

3113
02:55:04,240 --> 02:55:06,640
Speaker 1: of very good stuff about this. So with us is

3114
02:55:06,680 --> 02:55:09,720
Speaker 1: Ali Handra car Baio, who is a clinical instructor at

3115
02:55:09,760 --> 02:55:12,560
Speaker 1: Harvard Law School Cyberlaw Clinic where she works on the

3116
02:55:12,600 --> 02:55:18,200
Speaker 1: intersection of gender and technology. Hello, welcome to the show. Um.

3117
02:55:18,520 --> 02:55:22,160
Speaker 1: We also have Michelle McGrath who is a public defender

3118
02:55:22,959 --> 02:55:25,400
Speaker 1: in New York City for like almost a decade and

3119
02:55:25,520 --> 02:55:29,560
Speaker 1: specializes in bail and parole litigation. Michelle, Welcome to the showy,

3120
02:55:29,680 --> 02:55:35,640
Speaker 1: happy to be here. And finally we have Evka Pierre

3121
02:55:36,120 --> 02:55:40,000
Speaker 1: who's a senior litigation counselor where she works at the

3122
02:55:40,040 --> 02:55:43,720
Speaker 1: intersection of reproductive and criminal law, and she is on

3123
02:55:43,879 --> 02:55:46,680
Speaker 1: cases where folks are criminalized for their pregnancy lass. So

3124
02:55:47,520 --> 02:55:50,240
Speaker 1: if you welcome, welcome to the show as well. So

3125
02:55:50,560 --> 02:55:54,280
Speaker 1: y'all have written, Actually, I don't it occurs to me

3126
02:55:54,360 --> 02:55:58,160
Speaker 1: that it's been long enough. This is still not published yet, right, Yes,

3127
02:55:58,360 --> 02:56:01,800
Speaker 1: it's so. It's basically we submitted it to Cuney Law

3128
02:56:01,840 --> 02:56:04,720
Speaker 1: Review and we're waiting for edits. We expect our Law

3129
02:56:04,760 --> 02:56:09,480
Speaker 1: Review article to be published in December um, so, but

3130
02:56:09,760 --> 02:56:12,000
Speaker 1: you know, we've we've basically created a t L d

3131
02:56:12,200 --> 02:56:17,200
Speaker 1: R that we we collaborated for Slate, so we you know,

3132
02:56:17,360 --> 02:56:20,640
Speaker 1: there's a word article on Slate. You can read that

3133
02:56:20,720 --> 02:56:24,840
Speaker 1: kind of condenses down our article from like words as

3134
02:56:24,920 --> 02:56:29,320
Speaker 1: much as we can. I we were we were graciously

3135
02:56:29,360 --> 02:56:32,720
Speaker 1: provided the long one, and so we read the long one.

3136
02:56:32,720 --> 02:56:36,280
Speaker 1: We're gonna really talk about it because yeah, it's it's

3137
02:56:36,360 --> 02:56:40,640
Speaker 1: it's a it's a really interesting look at I don't know,

3138
02:56:41,080 --> 02:56:43,040
Speaker 1: there's a lot of sort of points of Okay, so

3139
02:56:43,160 --> 02:56:45,400
Speaker 1: I guess we should rerun and talk about what this

3140
02:56:45,480 --> 02:56:48,680
Speaker 1: actually is, which is that one of the things that's

3141
02:56:48,680 --> 02:56:52,879
Speaker 1: been happening in the last I mean basically, since jobs

3142
02:56:53,240 --> 02:56:59,480
Speaker 1: is a series of questions about what Okay, so it's

3143
02:56:59,480 --> 02:57:03,600
Speaker 1: a series is about what happens if you are in

3144
02:57:03,680 --> 02:57:06,640
Speaker 1: a state where abortions are illegal and you go to

3145
02:57:06,680 --> 02:57:10,920
Speaker 1: another state and you get an abortion there, and yeah,

3146
02:57:10,920 --> 02:57:15,440
Speaker 1: and there there's lots of jurisdictional questions here and yeah,

3147
02:57:15,480 --> 02:57:17,960
Speaker 1: and this article is a very very sort of in

3148
02:57:18,080 --> 02:57:20,760
Speaker 1: depth and really interesting look at it. And I guess, okay,

3149
02:57:20,800 --> 02:57:22,600
Speaker 1: I want to jump into this at a kind of

3150
02:57:22,640 --> 02:57:28,760
Speaker 1: weird place, but I wanted to start with. One of

3151
02:57:28,800 --> 02:57:30,000
Speaker 1: the things that one of the things that's in this

3152
02:57:30,400 --> 02:57:33,840
Speaker 1: article that's I haven't really seen much discussion of is

3153
02:57:34,040 --> 02:57:37,160
Speaker 1: about the way that the sort of safe harbor laws

3154
02:57:37,240 --> 02:57:40,800
Speaker 1: that states have been setting up are being like if well, okay,

3155
02:57:40,879 --> 02:57:42,800
Speaker 1: the way that they can potentially be in the way

3156
02:57:42,840 --> 02:57:45,879
Speaker 1: that previous safe harbor laws for immigration stuff were sabotaged

3157
02:57:45,959 --> 02:57:48,760
Speaker 1: by the fact that like all of the cops are

3158
02:57:49,680 --> 02:57:52,720
Speaker 1: sending like all of their stuff to each other. So, yeah,

3159
02:57:52,720 --> 02:57:54,040
Speaker 1: I was wondering if you could talk a bit about that.

3160
02:57:54,760 --> 02:57:57,680
Speaker 1: I guess it's like a lead into it. Yeah, I

3161
02:57:57,720 --> 02:58:01,320
Speaker 1: mean I with respect to specifically, like how all the

3162
02:58:01,720 --> 02:58:04,320
Speaker 1: law enforcement is talking to each other. I think Alejandro

3163
02:58:04,480 --> 02:58:06,880
Speaker 1: might know a little more with respect to that. But

3164
02:58:06,959 --> 02:58:11,320
Speaker 1: when it comes to the way these laws are being

3165
02:58:11,400 --> 02:58:15,360
Speaker 1: written there, they really don't have the kind of teeth

3166
02:58:15,720 --> 02:58:18,959
Speaker 1: that sort of the politicians are spinning to the public.

3167
02:58:19,080 --> 02:58:23,280
Speaker 1: They're sort of letting folks think that, well, we would

3168
02:58:23,320 --> 02:58:25,840
Speaker 1: never we in New York would never send you to

3169
02:58:26,040 --> 02:58:30,560
Speaker 1: Texas for anything related to the criminalization of a pregnancy laws. Um.

3170
02:58:30,959 --> 02:58:34,800
Speaker 1: And because of the way the law of extradition works

3171
02:58:34,879 --> 02:58:38,600
Speaker 1: in the United States, which is actually a constitutional law Um,

3172
02:58:40,680 --> 02:58:42,039
Speaker 1: it's going to be hard in a lot of ways

3173
02:58:42,120 --> 02:58:44,440
Speaker 1: for them to resist that. And so we have our

3174
02:58:44,560 --> 02:58:47,360
Speaker 1: article does talk about a little bit um in actually

3175
02:58:47,400 --> 02:58:50,160
Speaker 1: great detail about how they could actually craft the craft

3176
02:58:50,280 --> 02:58:53,080
Speaker 1: laws that would be a little bit different. Yeah. I

3177
02:58:53,160 --> 02:58:55,160
Speaker 1: think one of the things that you know, this just

3178
02:58:55,360 --> 02:58:57,240
Speaker 1: this past week, there was the story that came out

3179
02:58:57,320 --> 02:59:02,160
Speaker 1: of Nebraska where Facebook provided the d MS of someone

3180
02:59:02,240 --> 02:59:05,960
Speaker 1: who's uh, you know, being charged with you know, it

3181
02:59:06,360 --> 02:59:09,800
Speaker 1: wasn't even charged with like like there wasn't a formal

3182
02:59:09,920 --> 02:59:12,240
Speaker 1: charge of like committing an abortion, like the person that

3183
02:59:12,480 --> 02:59:15,080
Speaker 1: was being charged it was like disposing of a body,

3184
02:59:15,240 --> 02:59:19,800
Speaker 1: like and uh they say hiding a body. And so

3185
02:59:20,640 --> 02:59:22,760
Speaker 1: Facebook like released a statement and was saying like, well,

3186
02:59:22,800 --> 02:59:24,800
Speaker 1: we weren't told that this had anything to do with

3187
02:59:24,879 --> 02:59:28,800
Speaker 1: an abortion, and like that's the exact problem, right, is

3188
02:59:28,879 --> 02:59:31,640
Speaker 1: that when states are going to seek extradition, they're going

3189
02:59:31,680 --> 02:59:35,240
Speaker 1: to bring charges that have probably nothing to do with

3190
02:59:35,480 --> 02:59:37,520
Speaker 1: it in the immediate like on its face, to do

3191
02:59:37,640 --> 02:59:40,600
Speaker 1: with abortion. It could just be like, you know, they

3192
02:59:40,640 --> 02:59:44,880
Speaker 1: can repurpose all kinds of laws like endangerment of a minor, right,

3193
02:59:45,000 --> 02:59:47,280
Speaker 1: Like they can do all these things that like would

3194
02:59:47,480 --> 02:59:50,080
Speaker 1: ordinarily like never reply in a pregnancy, but they can

3195
02:59:50,120 --> 02:59:52,600
Speaker 1: just kind of do it just to bring charges. Um.

3196
02:59:52,800 --> 02:59:56,600
Speaker 1: And so you know, um, my colleague who's fortune out

3197
02:59:56,600 --> 02:59:58,640
Speaker 1: here said their countant cook has has written about the

3198
02:59:58,640 --> 03:00:02,320
Speaker 1: successively about like the criminalization aspect. But in terms of

3199
03:00:02,480 --> 03:00:05,080
Speaker 1: like how you know these these safe harbor states, you know,

3200
03:00:05,160 --> 03:00:07,600
Speaker 1: these laws like are going to be very difficult. I

3201
03:00:07,640 --> 03:00:09,800
Speaker 1: think it is just really what we're dealing with their

3202
03:00:09,800 --> 03:00:13,640
Speaker 1: effects of surveillance capitalism. Right, So, like Facebook turned over

3203
03:00:14,560 --> 03:00:17,360
Speaker 1: these d ms. Facebook has been in the process of

3204
03:00:17,440 --> 03:00:20,440
Speaker 1: moving to end to end encryption, which basically would have

3205
03:00:20,520 --> 03:00:23,520
Speaker 1: made this impossible to do in the first place because

3206
03:00:23,520 --> 03:00:26,560
Speaker 1: it would have been similar to signal. But what Facebook

3207
03:00:26,600 --> 03:00:28,240
Speaker 1: did is because they realized that they would have lost

3208
03:00:28,320 --> 03:00:32,640
Speaker 1: access to data around people's messages and what they're talking about,

3209
03:00:32,959 --> 03:00:37,520
Speaker 1: they made it optional instead of by default. And suppose

3210
03:00:37,560 --> 03:00:40,120
Speaker 1: people who are not very tech savvy are very familiar

3211
03:00:40,200 --> 03:00:42,240
Speaker 1: or understanding of you know, who has access to the

3212
03:00:42,320 --> 03:00:46,039
Speaker 1: messages and whether the government can get access, they might

3213
03:00:46,120 --> 03:00:48,320
Speaker 1: not know that they can set this to end end

3214
03:00:48,360 --> 03:00:52,280
Speaker 1: to end encryption, and so essentially, like in pursuit of profit,

3215
03:00:52,360 --> 03:00:55,880
Speaker 1: Facebook doesn't enable this privacy feature. But this is the

3216
03:00:55,920 --> 03:00:58,320
Speaker 1: exact same kind of stuff, right, So, like Facebook has

3217
03:00:58,320 --> 03:01:01,480
Speaker 1: access to this data, but there's also this whole shady

3218
03:01:01,640 --> 03:01:05,360
Speaker 1: system of data brokers that gets access to all kinds

3219
03:01:05,440 --> 03:01:07,720
Speaker 1: of data. And that's exactly how I think were you

3220
03:01:07,760 --> 03:01:11,199
Speaker 1: alluded to when you ask this question about ICE having

3221
03:01:11,320 --> 03:01:18,200
Speaker 1: access to basically all this information on immigrants that states

3222
03:01:18,280 --> 03:01:21,520
Speaker 1: had swore they would never share with better immigration officials.

3223
03:01:21,800 --> 03:01:25,920
Speaker 1: Like ICE is basically built this entire shadow system where

3224
03:01:25,959 --> 03:01:30,720
Speaker 1: they're purchasing data about driver's licenses and all this stuff

3225
03:01:31,240 --> 03:01:33,760
Speaker 1: basically by the purchasing it on the open market, and

3226
03:01:33,840 --> 03:01:39,360
Speaker 1: that bypasses all kinds of formal data requisition requests, warrants, subpoenas,

3227
03:01:39,520 --> 03:01:41,640
Speaker 1: all those things that would normally be required because it's

3228
03:01:41,680 --> 03:01:45,440
Speaker 1: just freely available. So, you know, suffices to say, as

3229
03:01:45,520 --> 03:01:48,400
Speaker 1: much as these states may want to protect things on

3230
03:01:48,560 --> 03:01:50,560
Speaker 1: that end in terms of data, it's going to be

3231
03:01:50,640 --> 03:01:52,680
Speaker 1: incredibly hard to do so. And I think they're the

3232
03:01:53,400 --> 03:01:58,040
Speaker 1: previous efforts around UH, Safe Harvard for Immigrants UM and

3233
03:01:58,080 --> 03:02:00,840
Speaker 1: asylum states and things like that. UM, it's just gonna

3234
03:02:00,879 --> 03:02:03,960
Speaker 1: be really hard to enforce. Some practice, however, on the

3235
03:02:05,480 --> 03:02:08,400
Speaker 1: extradition side, when when like criminal charges are actually brought

3236
03:02:08,920 --> 03:02:11,760
Speaker 1: that there there is some things that states can actually

3237
03:02:11,840 --> 03:02:14,720
Speaker 1: do to help protect the folks who are caught up

3238
03:02:15,000 --> 03:02:19,360
Speaker 1: with any kind of abortion related charges in their states. Um.

3239
03:02:19,520 --> 03:02:22,840
Speaker 1: I just also want to jump into say that the

3240
03:02:22,959 --> 03:02:26,360
Speaker 1: system works the way that it works because nobody's monitoring it.

3241
03:02:26,560 --> 03:02:29,640
Speaker 1: So when we're talking about law enforcement officials that are

3242
03:02:29,680 --> 03:02:34,120
Speaker 1: talking to one another and getting information through very informal means, right,

3243
03:02:34,600 --> 03:02:37,400
Speaker 1: things that probably by the book, would take a warrant

3244
03:02:37,480 --> 03:02:40,440
Speaker 1: to go from one place to the other just takes

3245
03:02:40,840 --> 03:02:45,280
Speaker 1: Marcy calling over Janice that works that the other system

3246
03:02:45,320 --> 03:02:49,400
Speaker 1: and getting something faxed over, even if they're not doing

3247
03:02:49,480 --> 03:02:51,400
Speaker 1: it out of malice, it's just, oh, this is out

3248
03:02:51,440 --> 03:02:53,320
Speaker 1: of convenience. It makes life a lot easier to get

3249
03:02:53,360 --> 03:02:55,960
Speaker 1: information from this place to that place. And folks have

3250
03:02:56,120 --> 03:02:58,879
Speaker 1: these informal systems that are set up that even when

3251
03:02:58,959 --> 03:03:01,840
Speaker 1: the law says that they cannot do it, if we

3252
03:03:01,920 --> 03:03:06,240
Speaker 1: don't have safeguards that I hate to say go after

3253
03:03:06,280 --> 03:03:09,240
Speaker 1: people because it seems so carceral, but like that protects

3254
03:03:09,800 --> 03:03:12,960
Speaker 1: what the intent of the law is. It has no teeth. Right,

3255
03:03:13,320 --> 03:03:16,840
Speaker 1: if your law doesn't stop Marcy from calling Janice and

3256
03:03:16,920 --> 03:03:20,280
Speaker 1: getting information on someone that they're not supposed to have

3257
03:03:20,400 --> 03:03:22,440
Speaker 1: in your law doesn't matter. It's kind of in a

3258
03:03:22,520 --> 03:03:25,840
Speaker 1: nothing sandwich, right, Um, and I have plenty of thoughts

3259
03:03:25,879 --> 03:03:28,040
Speaker 1: and stuff to say about the criminalization when we get

3260
03:03:28,120 --> 03:03:30,680
Speaker 1: there later, because that's a lot of my work. But

3261
03:03:30,840 --> 03:03:34,160
Speaker 1: I think that gets to what Michelle and Alejandra and

3262
03:03:34,240 --> 03:03:36,880
Speaker 1: what um Conti who's not here, have found. It's just

3263
03:03:38,720 --> 03:03:40,959
Speaker 1: you gotta have something more than nothing sandwich. Is something

3264
03:03:41,040 --> 03:03:43,840
Speaker 1: more than something that seems good on the surface and

3265
03:03:43,959 --> 03:03:46,000
Speaker 1: doesn't actually help the people that we want to help.

3266
03:03:46,560 --> 03:03:48,280
Speaker 1: And I want to sort of help folks sort of

3267
03:03:48,320 --> 03:03:50,720
Speaker 1: understand how this plays out on the grounds. When the article,

3268
03:03:50,760 --> 03:03:54,120
Speaker 1: we we give an example, right, So, maybe I've got

3269
03:03:54,160 --> 03:03:59,240
Speaker 1: a New Yorker who gets prescribed a medication that would

3270
03:03:59,360 --> 03:04:02,280
Speaker 1: induce a war Osian and you know, they bring it

3271
03:04:02,360 --> 03:04:05,560
Speaker 1: to their friend in a state where that's criminalized, and

3272
03:04:05,680 --> 03:04:09,880
Speaker 1: they give their friend the medication, the pregnancy ends, Maybe

3273
03:04:10,360 --> 03:04:13,879
Speaker 1: the person is concerned and they go to the hospital. Um.

3274
03:04:14,160 --> 03:04:18,240
Speaker 1: Quite often nurses and doctors are part of the criminalization process,

3275
03:04:18,440 --> 03:04:21,760
Speaker 1: and so you know, maybe they call law enforcement official

3276
03:04:23,000 --> 03:04:25,200
Speaker 1: based on this information. They get a subpoena for that

3277
03:04:25,320 --> 03:04:27,280
Speaker 1: person's phone. So now they're in the phone and they

3278
03:04:27,360 --> 03:04:30,000
Speaker 1: can find out, Wow, they got this medicine from the

3279
03:04:30,080 --> 03:04:36,240
Speaker 1: New Yorker. Well, now now the person who took the medication,

3280
03:04:37,360 --> 03:04:39,680
Speaker 1: perhaps it's charged with homicide. Right. I think what's key

3281
03:04:39,760 --> 03:04:41,920
Speaker 1: here is that they're not necessarily going to be charged

3282
03:04:41,959 --> 03:04:45,279
Speaker 1: with abortion. Maybe they're charged with homicide. They're charged within fanticide.

3283
03:04:45,520 --> 03:04:47,280
Speaker 1: And guess what, the person who came from New York

3284
03:04:47,400 --> 03:04:49,519
Speaker 1: is now probably going to be charged as an accomplice.

3285
03:04:49,840 --> 03:04:53,200
Speaker 1: So now we have a warrant for for a homicide

3286
03:04:54,040 --> 03:04:58,280
Speaker 1: for the person in New York. Because of all the

3287
03:04:58,360 --> 03:05:03,039
Speaker 1: national databases that we have have, the NYPD, the any

3288
03:05:03,120 --> 03:05:04,920
Speaker 1: of the law enforcement in New York is going to see,

3289
03:05:04,959 --> 03:05:08,360
Speaker 1: oh that New Yorkers wanted for homicide, Let me go

3290
03:05:08,600 --> 03:05:12,840
Speaker 1: get that person. Um. And so when then that person

3291
03:05:13,560 --> 03:05:16,200
Speaker 1: comes in front of a judge, even though New York

3292
03:05:16,840 --> 03:05:20,440
Speaker 1: is saying or Connecticut is saying, you know, we're not

3293
03:05:20,600 --> 03:05:23,720
Speaker 1: going to give any resources to extradite someone related to

3294
03:05:23,760 --> 03:05:27,280
Speaker 1: the termination of pregnancy, Well they're just being brought before

3295
03:05:27,360 --> 03:05:30,040
Speaker 1: law enforcement in front of a judge who sees that

3296
03:05:30,160 --> 03:05:33,760
Speaker 1: there wanted for homicide, right, and so on the ground

3297
03:05:35,800 --> 03:05:39,040
Speaker 1: these laws don't have anything to stop them, and and

3298
03:05:39,240 --> 03:05:42,600
Speaker 1: so we've sort of suggested things that involve immediate rights

3299
03:05:42,600 --> 03:05:45,920
Speaker 1: to counsel people need to be released for extradition UM.

3300
03:05:45,959 --> 03:05:47,600
Speaker 1: And we can talk about some of those more, but

3301
03:05:47,680 --> 03:05:49,520
Speaker 1: I think it helps to sort of give that example

3302
03:05:49,640 --> 03:05:52,680
Speaker 1: to see how it's happening, how it would happen in

3303
03:05:52,760 --> 03:05:57,440
Speaker 1: real life. There's something else I wanted to sort of

3304
03:05:57,480 --> 03:06:01,160
Speaker 1: talk about this because one of the things that that

3305
03:06:02,000 --> 03:06:05,920
Speaker 1: on the sort of surveillance front has been the way

3306
03:06:05,959 --> 03:06:08,200
Speaker 1: in which like what we're seeing now is sort of

3307
03:06:08,240 --> 03:06:11,800
Speaker 1: the culmination of like a bunch of the types of

3308
03:06:11,840 --> 03:06:13,720
Speaker 1: surveillance that have been inflicted on a bunch of different

3309
03:06:13,720 --> 03:06:15,680
Speaker 1: groups of people. Do you have the antisex worker stuff,

3310
03:06:15,680 --> 03:06:18,400
Speaker 1: you have the deservation, the surveillance stuff that's music as immigrants,

3311
03:06:18,440 --> 03:06:21,640
Speaker 1: you have uh, the sort of post nine eleven like

3312
03:06:22,000 --> 03:06:23,680
Speaker 1: I mean, this is where the sort of fusion centers

3313
03:06:24,040 --> 03:06:26,440
Speaker 1: UM come from. Is the sort of like post nine

3314
03:06:26,480 --> 03:06:29,560
Speaker 1: eleven security state build up. And then you have the

3315
03:06:29,600 --> 03:06:31,320
Speaker 1: stuff that's been used to go after activists. And I

3316
03:06:31,400 --> 03:06:34,560
Speaker 1: think that's been really interesting to me to sort of,

3317
03:06:34,680 --> 03:06:38,520
Speaker 1: I mean incredibly like depressing too to watch has been Yeah,

3318
03:06:38,560 --> 03:06:40,119
Speaker 1: like I don't know, like I remember like the few

3319
03:06:40,240 --> 03:06:41,879
Speaker 1: like one of the things if you these fusion centers

3320
03:06:41,879 --> 03:06:44,640
Speaker 1: were like all of these sort of like law enforcement

3321
03:06:44,680 --> 03:06:47,160
Speaker 1: agencies like share information with each other, like I don't know,

3322
03:06:47,240 --> 03:06:50,480
Speaker 1: like I remember in like they were like sending one

3323
03:06:50,520 --> 03:06:53,600
Speaker 1: of my friends tweets around because that was one of

3324
03:06:53,640 --> 03:06:55,959
Speaker 1: the things they were doing to like go after people

3325
03:06:56,040 --> 03:06:59,840
Speaker 1: change their protests, and like, I don't know, I was

3326
03:06:59,879 --> 03:07:03,040
Speaker 1: interested in in this question of of these fusion centers

3327
03:07:03,160 --> 03:07:07,320
Speaker 1: because it's it's this I don't know, it's this real

3328
03:07:07,440 --> 03:07:10,280
Speaker 1: sort of like like it really seems like the sort

3329
03:07:10,320 --> 03:07:12,120
Speaker 1: of like the the next step of where all of

3330
03:07:12,160 --> 03:07:16,200
Speaker 1: this stuff goes is, you know, the fusion centers becomes

3331
03:07:16,280 --> 03:07:18,880
Speaker 1: becomes this place where it's really really easy to bypass

3332
03:07:18,959 --> 03:07:21,120
Speaker 1: the law because you know, all of this stuff is

3333
03:07:21,160 --> 03:07:24,480
Speaker 1: just getting shared anyways. And it brings up this other

3334
03:07:24,920 --> 03:07:26,960
Speaker 1: problem which I was interested in, which is about like

3335
03:07:28,440 --> 03:07:31,879
Speaker 1: to what extent can the state even control law enforcement

3336
03:07:32,760 --> 03:07:38,400
Speaker 1: because like, okay, like law enforcement are those like cops

3337
03:07:38,520 --> 03:07:42,880
Speaker 1: in general, very reactionary. There there's you know, if if

3338
03:07:42,920 --> 03:07:44,720
Speaker 1: you you know, if if if you go back into

3339
03:07:44,760 --> 03:07:46,840
Speaker 1: the history of the anti bustion movement, there's a lot

3340
03:07:46,879 --> 03:07:49,560
Speaker 1: of them being like aided to better it by the cops,

3341
03:07:49,600 --> 03:07:52,240
Speaker 1: and I was wondering, I don't know what what you

3342
03:07:52,400 --> 03:07:56,880
Speaker 1: think about, like, like what what what do you even

3343
03:07:56,959 --> 03:07:58,800
Speaker 1: do if the cops just decide they don't want follow

3344
03:07:58,800 --> 03:08:00,920
Speaker 1: the law at all, and they're just you know, they're

3345
03:08:00,920 --> 03:08:02,840
Speaker 1: gonna they're just gonna keep passing information on no matter

3346
03:08:02,920 --> 03:08:05,880
Speaker 1: what you do. I think Alejandra and I probably uh

3347
03:08:06,720 --> 03:08:09,400
Speaker 1: different on views about where things are going next, probably

3348
03:08:09,520 --> 03:08:11,680
Speaker 1: just because of the nature of our our work in

3349
03:08:11,840 --> 03:08:14,720
Speaker 1: the things that we're dealing with the most. So this

3350
03:08:14,840 --> 03:08:19,720
Speaker 1: is gonna be fun. So I I actually think so, well, yesterday,

3351
03:08:19,840 --> 03:08:22,640
Speaker 1: two days ago, whenever this airs, However, many days ago,

3352
03:08:22,800 --> 03:08:25,320
Speaker 1: one of our colleagues at if When how my colleague

3353
03:08:25,360 --> 03:08:28,240
Speaker 1: Laura Huss, who's brilliant UM has been working on this

3354
03:08:28,360 --> 03:08:31,600
Speaker 1: research project for like the last two years, tracking cases

3355
03:08:31,920 --> 03:08:36,000
Speaker 1: of when folks are criminalized for self managed abortion. Why

3356
03:08:36,080 --> 03:08:39,320
Speaker 1: self managed abortion, because that is the abortions that were

3357
03:08:39,360 --> 03:08:42,920
Speaker 1: happening outside of clinical spaces right that we're There were

3358
03:08:42,959 --> 03:08:46,720
Speaker 1: always questions about who can be criminalized for self managing

3359
03:08:46,760 --> 03:08:49,040
Speaker 1: their care. There weren't as many protections in the law

3360
03:08:49,480 --> 03:08:51,800
Speaker 1: for a lot of helpers and things like that in

3361
03:08:52,080 --> 03:08:55,520
Speaker 1: self managed care. So when her and her team looked

3362
03:08:55,560 --> 03:08:58,920
Speaker 1: at this data. UM. What they found was that the

3363
03:08:59,040 --> 03:09:04,040
Speaker 1: biggest risk of criminalization didn't actually necessarily come from UM

3364
03:09:04,400 --> 03:09:07,959
Speaker 1: external forces looking at big data, right, but was actually

3365
03:09:08,040 --> 03:09:10,480
Speaker 1: cut like the hell is other people. Because what they

3366
03:09:10,520 --> 03:09:14,360
Speaker 1: were finding was that nearly the majority of cases of

3367
03:09:14,400 --> 03:09:16,800
Speaker 1: folks coming to the attention of law enforcement was coming

3368
03:09:16,840 --> 03:09:20,200
Speaker 1: from medical professionals. So I want to say, I have

3369
03:09:20,320 --> 03:09:25,720
Speaker 1: the numbers in front of me somewhere it's UM. Well,

3370
03:09:26,400 --> 03:09:29,400
Speaker 1: so it's something like of folks that were reported to

3371
03:09:29,480 --> 03:09:32,080
Speaker 1: the police were reported by some sort of medical professional,

3372
03:09:32,120 --> 03:09:34,160
Speaker 1: whether that's a doctor, a social work, or a nurse

3373
03:09:34,240 --> 03:09:36,400
Speaker 1: or whoever, that was at a hospital when they were

3374
03:09:36,440 --> 03:09:38,680
Speaker 1: seeking care or they were getting prenatal care at some

3375
03:09:38,720 --> 03:09:40,800
Speaker 1: point when they found out they were pregnant. That's how

3376
03:09:40,840 --> 03:09:44,680
Speaker 1: they came to the attention of law enforcement. Another of

3377
03:09:44,760 --> 03:09:47,279
Speaker 1: those folks that came to the attention of law enforcement

3378
03:09:47,360 --> 03:09:51,040
Speaker 1: came to people that they told information to that they entrusted,

3379
03:09:51,280 --> 03:09:53,720
Speaker 1: whether that was a family member, a partner, a former partner,

3380
03:09:53,800 --> 03:09:57,040
Speaker 1: whoever the heck right. So, what we're finding is that

3381
03:09:57,200 --> 03:09:59,520
Speaker 1: the vast majority of people that came to the attention

3382
03:09:59,560 --> 03:10:03,320
Speaker 1: of law andforcement was because of folks, like actual people

3383
03:10:03,560 --> 03:10:07,080
Speaker 1: that had the information, and then that turned into them

3384
03:10:07,160 --> 03:10:12,040
Speaker 1: being individually targeted by police, and then that turned into

3385
03:10:12,120 --> 03:10:15,600
Speaker 1: their data being mined on their actual physical devices. Not

3386
03:10:15,760 --> 03:10:20,160
Speaker 1: like big brother down but small brother up right. So uh,

3387
03:10:21,280 --> 03:10:24,400
Speaker 1: When I certainly think about kind of how big data

3388
03:10:24,480 --> 03:10:29,720
Speaker 1: can be used and manipulated and like absolutely messed up

3389
03:10:29,840 --> 03:10:32,120
Speaker 1: to do a dragnet of folks, that's always kind of

3390
03:10:32,160 --> 03:10:35,000
Speaker 1: a possibility that's swimming. But I think the immediate possibility

3391
03:10:35,120 --> 03:10:37,200
Speaker 1: is like, how do you protect your individual data on

3392
03:10:37,240 --> 03:10:40,400
Speaker 1: your individual devices? What safety plan do you have in

3393
03:10:40,560 --> 03:10:43,640
Speaker 1: place about how you use the internet wholesale? Because I'm

3394
03:10:43,640 --> 03:10:46,000
Speaker 1: a lawyer, I can't tell people to commit crimes, but

3395
03:10:46,080 --> 03:10:48,560
Speaker 1: I can tell people to be very careful about how

3396
03:10:48,640 --> 03:10:52,240
Speaker 1: you manage your devices and how you manage information. Who

3397
03:10:52,320 --> 03:10:56,600
Speaker 1: do you tell your business to full stop? Right, because

3398
03:10:56,959 --> 03:10:59,879
Speaker 1: that's how folks are coming to the attention of law enforcement.

3399
03:11:00,160 --> 03:11:03,920
Speaker 1: Can the laws control cops? I think what we generally

3400
03:11:04,040 --> 03:11:09,080
Speaker 1: see is like, probably not um, but will the courts

3401
03:11:09,320 --> 03:11:13,400
Speaker 1: respond to cops that work outside of the law? I

3402
03:11:13,520 --> 03:11:16,520
Speaker 1: think the loyally awful answer is it depends on the

3403
03:11:16,640 --> 03:11:19,200
Speaker 1: jurisdiction that you managed to find yourself in Yeah, I

3404
03:11:19,280 --> 03:11:21,840
Speaker 1: think I think Keith guys just hit it right on

3405
03:11:21,920 --> 03:11:24,720
Speaker 1: the head. Um, you know, it's cybersecurity or weakest like

3406
03:11:24,760 --> 03:11:27,680
Speaker 1: as always a human element, So like that's always going

3407
03:11:27,760 --> 03:11:29,640
Speaker 1: to be the biggest concern, right, Like who are you

3408
03:11:29,760 --> 03:11:33,039
Speaker 1: telling about any of this? Like who knows about it? Um?

3409
03:11:33,440 --> 03:11:36,160
Speaker 1: Like you know, you know on a tangential as you're

3410
03:11:36,160 --> 03:11:38,360
Speaker 1: like with genderforming care in Texas, like one of the

3411
03:11:38,640 --> 03:11:41,480
Speaker 1: one of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit against Texas, like

3412
03:11:42,760 --> 03:11:45,240
Speaker 1: one of the trans boys like that that was like

3413
03:11:45,840 --> 03:11:49,080
Speaker 1: you know, found out about you know, Governor Abbott's letter

3414
03:11:49,240 --> 03:11:53,279
Speaker 1: to like basically equate gender firming care as child abuse

3415
03:11:54,160 --> 03:11:57,279
Speaker 1: attempted suicide and then when was taken to the hospital,

3416
03:11:57,959 --> 03:12:01,720
Speaker 1: the hospital staff then made a report to like the

3417
03:12:01,800 --> 03:12:04,760
Speaker 1: Department of Yeah, so I mean this was all in

3418
03:12:05,120 --> 03:12:07,840
Speaker 1: in the A. C. L Use lawsuit and it's like

3419
03:12:07,959 --> 03:12:10,960
Speaker 1: it's just insane, right, So like that that's exactly the thing,

3420
03:12:11,040 --> 03:12:13,840
Speaker 1: Like the biggest risk is always gonna be the human element,

3421
03:12:13,959 --> 03:12:17,800
Speaker 1: Like you're like the doctors, the nurses, your friends, like

3422
03:12:18,120 --> 03:12:20,680
Speaker 1: family members, you know it, and it might even be

3423
03:12:20,760 --> 03:12:23,560
Speaker 1: people like you deeply trust. You just never know, And

3424
03:12:23,680 --> 03:12:26,000
Speaker 1: so that's always going to be an aspect. But I

3425
03:12:26,040 --> 03:12:29,280
Speaker 1: think one of the biggest risks as well is is

3426
03:12:29,320 --> 03:12:31,640
Speaker 1: that the amount of data that we have now, like

3427
03:12:31,800 --> 03:12:33,960
Speaker 1: even if that can't be used like in a proactive

3428
03:12:34,040 --> 03:12:36,880
Speaker 1: way to like target people on the back ends, like

3429
03:12:37,000 --> 03:12:39,160
Speaker 1: once you do have that kind of friend turning you

3430
03:12:39,200 --> 03:12:42,080
Speaker 1: into like all of a sudden, they have intent. They

3431
03:12:42,160 --> 03:12:44,360
Speaker 1: have like all of these things from messages, they have

3432
03:12:44,800 --> 03:12:47,959
Speaker 1: location data. They show exactly where you were at what time.

3433
03:12:48,400 --> 03:12:50,760
Speaker 1: Like it's it's just like the perfect surveillance system that

3434
03:12:50,840 --> 03:12:55,400
Speaker 1: basically makes like any kind of reasonable defense nearly impossible, right,

3435
03:12:55,480 --> 03:12:57,480
Speaker 1: Like they can show where you were, who you talked

3436
03:12:57,520 --> 03:13:01,640
Speaker 1: to um. And so I think that the best tweet

3437
03:13:01,680 --> 03:13:04,320
Speaker 1: that I saw about this is from from someone who

3438
03:13:04,360 --> 03:13:07,400
Speaker 1: works at Digital Defense Fund, and they're basically like there

3439
03:13:07,520 --> 03:13:10,000
Speaker 1: um actually might not have been them. I just remember

3440
03:13:10,000 --> 03:13:12,960
Speaker 1: it was just like there there is no conversation about

3441
03:13:13,120 --> 03:13:17,160
Speaker 1: criminal activity. There is only conspiracy. Like basically it's like

3442
03:13:17,520 --> 03:13:20,120
Speaker 1: any time you're chatting about any of this stuff, Like

3443
03:13:20,800 --> 03:13:23,480
Speaker 1: it's basically like that that in itself can be potentially

3444
03:13:23,520 --> 03:13:25,720
Speaker 1: considered like criminal conduct, and like that can be used

3445
03:13:25,800 --> 03:13:28,680
Speaker 1: like as intent and like all these things and like

3446
03:13:29,160 --> 03:13:32,360
Speaker 1: um in prosecution. So like there's all of those aspects,

3447
03:13:32,400 --> 03:13:34,160
Speaker 1: and I think just to answer your your question like

3448
03:13:34,240 --> 03:13:37,360
Speaker 1: more broadly on on what police can be done, like

3449
03:13:37,800 --> 03:13:40,040
Speaker 1: like to be honest, I guess an attorney, it's been

3450
03:13:40,200 --> 03:13:45,880
Speaker 1: very very frustrating seeing qualified immunity just being like increased,

3451
03:13:45,959 --> 03:13:48,440
Speaker 1: right like, so so basically there's been no appetite by

3452
03:13:48,480 --> 03:13:52,440
Speaker 1: the courts to like like remove this doctrine or whittle

3453
03:13:52,480 --> 03:13:55,480
Speaker 1: it away actually like being rapidly expanded, especially in aspect

3454
03:13:55,520 --> 03:13:59,720
Speaker 1: around um federal agents. Right and now like there's some

3455
03:14:00,400 --> 03:14:02,840
Speaker 1: can you explain, sorry briefly just what that is for

3456
03:14:02,920 --> 03:14:05,760
Speaker 1: people who don't know. So, qualified immunity basically means that

3457
03:14:06,320 --> 03:14:09,760
Speaker 1: you can't bring a civil rights lawsuit, particularly what it

3458
03:14:09,840 --> 03:14:12,240
Speaker 1: call like a nineteen eighty three lawsuit, which is like

3459
03:14:12,320 --> 03:14:15,000
Speaker 1: the federal statute that allows you to bring civil rights

3460
03:14:15,440 --> 03:14:20,480
Speaker 1: lawsuits against state and federal individuals for um, any kind

3461
03:14:20,520 --> 03:14:23,320
Speaker 1: of civil rights abuses. And it's everything from like discrimination

3462
03:14:23,400 --> 03:14:26,600
Speaker 1: on basis of race to basically you know, the cop

3463
03:14:26,720 --> 03:14:29,240
Speaker 1: beating someone you know within an inch of their life

3464
03:14:29,280 --> 03:14:31,920
Speaker 1: though so basically any any kind of civilis violations. It's

3465
03:14:31,920 --> 03:14:33,920
Speaker 1: called like a nineteen eight three case, which is like

3466
03:14:33,959 --> 03:14:35,879
Speaker 1: the citation is the actual law that like dates back

3467
03:14:35,920 --> 03:14:39,200
Speaker 1: to the nineteenth century, Like it's part of um like

3468
03:14:39,360 --> 03:14:42,080
Speaker 1: the ku klux Klient Acts, which like so this is

3469
03:14:42,320 --> 03:14:45,119
Speaker 1: a long running like civil rights statute that really gained

3470
03:14:45,200 --> 03:14:49,240
Speaker 1: prominence in the last sixty years. But you know, so

3471
03:14:49,360 --> 03:14:51,920
Speaker 1: basically what qualified immunity does is it basically says it, well,

3472
03:14:51,920 --> 03:14:54,800
Speaker 1: if it wasn't a clearly established right when this abuse

3473
03:14:54,959 --> 03:14:59,160
Speaker 1: or violation of your civil rights happened, the officer or

3474
03:14:59,200 --> 03:15:02,240
Speaker 1: the government of show it can't be held liable for it.

3475
03:15:02,600 --> 03:15:04,840
Speaker 1: So basically like and the way that they do it

3476
03:15:05,000 --> 03:15:07,840
Speaker 1: is very strictly interpreted. It was like clearly established right.

3477
03:15:07,879 --> 03:15:10,760
Speaker 1: So it's like, well, I wasn't clearly established right that

3478
03:15:10,840 --> 03:15:13,040
Speaker 1: you weren't supposed to be able to be beaten with

3479
03:15:13,120 --> 03:15:16,440
Speaker 1: a baton like and it's just like what like it's

3480
03:15:16,920 --> 03:15:19,400
Speaker 1: some of these cases get really crazy. I'm not an

3481
03:15:19,440 --> 03:15:21,520
Speaker 1: expert on this by any means, but like I've I've

3482
03:15:21,760 --> 03:15:25,879
Speaker 1: you know, come across a few, and it's it's absolutely insane.

3483
03:15:25,959 --> 03:15:29,120
Speaker 1: Like how how like narrowly they'll they'll oftentimes like define

3484
03:15:29,240 --> 03:15:32,240
Speaker 1: what like clearly like it's not like you know, broadly

3485
03:15:32,320 --> 03:15:35,800
Speaker 1: defined right of like maybe police officers shouldn't beating people. Um,

3486
03:15:36,520 --> 03:15:38,119
Speaker 1: but you know, and I think it was. It was'ce

3487
03:15:38,160 --> 03:15:40,760
Speaker 1: even crazier is that this law or there's an upcoming

3488
03:15:40,840 --> 03:15:42,760
Speaker 1: lar of the article by this professor that I was

3489
03:15:42,840 --> 03:15:47,280
Speaker 1: just came across the other day and like, apparently there

3490
03:15:47,440 --> 03:15:50,200
Speaker 1: is a whole provision of nineteen eight of the section

3491
03:15:51,720 --> 03:15:54,800
Speaker 1: that has been omitted from the Federal Register for a

3492
03:15:54,920 --> 03:15:58,880
Speaker 1: hundred and like forty years. Basically like a clerk omitted

3493
03:15:58,920 --> 03:16:04,560
Speaker 1: a section and this large like this this um like

3494
03:16:04,720 --> 03:16:07,760
Speaker 1: the Farriarca basically uncovered this omission that should have been

3495
03:16:07,800 --> 03:16:12,800
Speaker 1: in it passed in Congress. I'm like, but hey, if

3496
03:16:12,879 --> 03:16:16,000
Speaker 1: you we didn't. It wasn't a clearly established right Alejandra,

3497
03:16:16,240 --> 03:16:19,880
Speaker 1: So does it really apply? The one that I'm like

3498
03:16:20,000 --> 03:16:21,840
Speaker 1: haunted by that that I read about that was that

3499
03:16:21,920 --> 03:16:23,920
Speaker 1: was one of the qualified beauty cases was like there

3500
03:16:24,000 --> 03:16:25,560
Speaker 1: was a guy who got lit on fire by a

3501
03:16:25,600 --> 03:16:28,760
Speaker 1: cop with the taser, and the courts ruled that because

3502
03:16:29,000 --> 03:16:31,720
Speaker 1: because there hadn't been a prior instance of someone's like that,

3503
03:16:32,080 --> 03:16:34,000
Speaker 1: you don't have clearly established right for a cop. Don't

3504
03:16:34,240 --> 03:16:36,360
Speaker 1: you on fire with the taser? Yeah? And you know

3505
03:16:36,360 --> 03:16:37,800
Speaker 1: you can. Guy burned it death because again you got

3506
03:16:37,840 --> 03:16:39,960
Speaker 1: lit on fire with a taser, like because because there

3507
03:16:39,959 --> 03:16:41,440
Speaker 1: wasn't a clearly everything. It's like this is like this

3508
03:16:41,560 --> 03:16:45,200
Speaker 1: is like the worst, Like yeah, the secret is it's

3509
03:16:45,280 --> 03:16:51,600
Speaker 1: never it's never clearly established like like mostly folks lose

3510
03:16:51,760 --> 03:16:55,480
Speaker 1: these lawsuits. And I mean this is where you know,

3511
03:16:55,600 --> 03:16:58,880
Speaker 1: I think folks need to recognize and I say this

3512
03:16:59,040 --> 03:17:00,640
Speaker 1: very much as a lawyer, that the law is not

3513
03:17:00,800 --> 03:17:02,200
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, what's going to save

3514
03:17:02,320 --> 03:17:06,320
Speaker 1: us like collective organizing and working together to keep each

3515
03:17:06,320 --> 03:17:11,640
Speaker 1: other safe. Is because the law is not designed to

3516
03:17:11,879 --> 03:17:16,680
Speaker 1: hold police accountable. It is not designed to keep people

3517
03:17:16,680 --> 03:17:19,920
Speaker 1: out of jail. In fact, it's designed to do the opposite, right,

3518
03:17:20,000 --> 03:17:21,800
Speaker 1: And I think we're going to see a whole lot

3519
03:17:21,879 --> 03:17:26,440
Speaker 1: of folks start to understand how criminalization works in a

3520
03:17:26,560 --> 03:17:29,320
Speaker 1: way that they may not have realized before. And to

3521
03:17:29,440 --> 03:17:32,959
Speaker 1: your question, like as a public defender in New York

3522
03:17:33,040 --> 03:17:35,960
Speaker 1: City who spent many of those years in the Bronx, like, no,

3523
03:17:36,320 --> 03:17:39,480
Speaker 1: the police are not accountable to anyone and they continually

3524
03:17:39,560 --> 03:17:42,600
Speaker 1: do unlawful things all day. And this is part part

3525
03:17:42,640 --> 03:17:47,200
Speaker 1: of one of the solutions. And again, all of these

3526
03:17:47,240 --> 03:17:50,000
Speaker 1: are stopgap measures so that people have time to plan

3527
03:17:50,120 --> 03:17:53,120
Speaker 1: and plot and organize and and and do what they

3528
03:17:53,160 --> 03:17:58,320
Speaker 1: need to do. But is that in these states that

3529
03:17:58,400 --> 03:17:59,920
Speaker 1: are saying, oh, we're not you know, we're going to

3530
03:18:00,080 --> 03:18:02,720
Speaker 1: keep state resources away. No, no one shall use state

3531
03:18:02,800 --> 03:18:05,680
Speaker 1: resources to move someone for any of these you know,

3532
03:18:05,760 --> 03:18:10,560
Speaker 1: criminalization of pregnancy. UM. But we imagine that law enforcement

3533
03:18:10,680 --> 03:18:13,680
Speaker 1: is generally a rather conservative group of people will simply

3534
03:18:13,800 --> 03:18:17,520
Speaker 1: disagree with that law and probably at times do things anyway. Right,

3535
03:18:17,760 --> 03:18:19,879
Speaker 1: And sure we can file a lawsuit later, but that's

3536
03:18:19,920 --> 03:18:22,560
Speaker 1: not really preventing the harm in the interim, right, like

3537
03:18:22,600 --> 03:18:25,360
Speaker 1: someone's going to be incarcerated. All of these things are

3538
03:18:25,400 --> 03:18:28,960
Speaker 1: going to happen. And so one of our proposals is

3539
03:18:29,040 --> 03:18:32,600
Speaker 1: that it should be crystal clear that any any state

3540
03:18:32,640 --> 03:18:40,320
Speaker 1: actor who does participate in such extradition can be sued individually.

3541
03:18:40,400 --> 03:18:43,080
Speaker 1: They will have none of this qualified immunity. It will

3542
03:18:43,160 --> 03:18:47,200
Speaker 1: not exist. Now, Listen, this seems very reasonable to me

3543
03:18:47,480 --> 03:18:49,400
Speaker 1: and to us, But do I think it's something that

3544
03:18:49,600 --> 03:18:53,560
Speaker 1: the legislature will actually pass. I'm not particularly optimistic about

3545
03:18:53,640 --> 03:18:55,800
Speaker 1: most of our proposals on this because it will mean

3546
03:18:55,800 --> 03:18:59,240
Speaker 1: a lot of other folks who will not be criminalized.

3547
03:18:59,280 --> 03:19:02,520
Speaker 1: In addition to UM, folks whore criminalized for abortion. But

3548
03:19:02,640 --> 03:19:05,879
Speaker 1: so so I do think that that that does police.

3549
03:19:06,680 --> 03:19:10,280
Speaker 1: You have a problem with rampant police impunity uh in

3550
03:19:10,400 --> 03:19:13,800
Speaker 1: this country. UM, and it will show up here just

3551
03:19:13,959 --> 03:19:17,640
Speaker 1: like it does in many other sectors. I think sometimes

3552
03:19:17,680 --> 03:19:21,119
Speaker 1: when we talk about criminalization of abortion wholesale, for folks

3553
03:19:21,160 --> 03:19:24,000
Speaker 1: that have not been working in and about repro it

3554
03:19:24,120 --> 03:19:27,320
Speaker 1: feels very new, like this is something that we need

3555
03:19:27,400 --> 03:19:29,320
Speaker 1: to kind of like gird our loins and prepare for.

3556
03:19:29,560 --> 03:19:32,800
Speaker 1: But folks that have been working in the RHRJ movements

3557
03:19:32,840 --> 03:19:37,600
Speaker 1: reproductive rights, health and justice movements, UM, we have been

3558
03:19:37,640 --> 03:19:41,360
Speaker 1: talking about criminalization for a long time. And the reason

3559
03:19:41,440 --> 03:19:43,880
Speaker 1: that we've been talking about criminalizations because it's been happening

3560
03:19:43,920 --> 03:19:45,840
Speaker 1: for a long time. So I was talking about my

3561
03:19:45,879 --> 03:19:49,360
Speaker 1: colleagues research that, um, the preliminary and folk just came out.

3562
03:19:49,720 --> 03:19:52,840
Speaker 1: So when she was combing through all of these like

3563
03:19:53,800 --> 03:19:56,880
Speaker 1: different clerks offices all over the country, she unearthed like

3564
03:19:56,959 --> 03:19:59,720
Speaker 1: sixty one cases of folks being criminalized with self managed

3565
03:19:59,720 --> 03:20:03,640
Speaker 1: aboard and in twenty states now we only have three

3566
03:20:03,800 --> 03:20:07,400
Speaker 1: states that have laws criminalizing self managed abortion left on

3567
03:20:07,440 --> 03:20:10,240
Speaker 1: the books. So holy crap. The fact that there have

3568
03:20:10,360 --> 03:20:14,520
Speaker 1: been prosecutions in twenty states when only I think at

3569
03:20:14,560 --> 03:20:16,920
Speaker 1: the time that some of these cases were about only

3570
03:20:16,959 --> 03:20:19,560
Speaker 1: like five or six states had these laws on the books.

3571
03:20:19,640 --> 03:20:23,720
Speaker 1: Tell us that prosecutors are very, very creative in the

3572
03:20:23,760 --> 03:20:28,360
Speaker 1: ways that they go after people. So the likelihood of

3573
03:20:28,720 --> 03:20:32,080
Speaker 1: always seeing abortion written at the top of the warrant

3574
03:20:32,280 --> 03:20:34,400
Speaker 1: is going to be low. And then in some states

3575
03:20:34,480 --> 03:20:36,160
Speaker 1: we are going to start seeing it because they are

3576
03:20:36,240 --> 03:20:39,640
Speaker 1: going to if they haven't already criminalized abortion wholesale, any

3577
03:20:39,760 --> 03:20:41,959
Speaker 1: kind of abortion right, all abortions are going to become

3578
03:20:42,200 --> 03:20:44,280
Speaker 1: self managed because their folks are not able to get

3579
03:20:44,320 --> 03:20:47,400
Speaker 1: clinical care. So it's it's not new, and I think

3580
03:20:47,480 --> 03:20:48,680
Speaker 1: that's one of the things that I want to make

3581
03:20:48,720 --> 03:20:53,720
Speaker 1: sure that folks understand that there like criminal defense attorneys

3582
03:20:53,760 --> 03:20:56,640
Speaker 1: can and can deal with this because it's just the

3583
03:20:56,720 --> 03:20:58,960
Speaker 1: same messed up ways that they charge people in a

3584
03:20:59,040 --> 03:21:03,280
Speaker 1: variety of other cases. But I think the shock and

3585
03:21:03,400 --> 03:21:08,199
Speaker 1: awe um that's hitting some folks who the criminal legal

3586
03:21:08,240 --> 03:21:12,960
Speaker 1: system doesn't move within their lives is I need folks

3587
03:21:13,040 --> 03:21:15,320
Speaker 1: to get out of shock and all quick and get

3588
03:21:15,400 --> 03:21:18,360
Speaker 1: into work mode because some of the things that I'm

3589
03:21:18,400 --> 03:21:20,440
Speaker 1: seeing on the internet. While we're talking about how hell

3590
03:21:20,560 --> 03:21:22,480
Speaker 1: is other people and how we can protect ourselves in

3591
03:21:22,520 --> 03:21:26,520
Speaker 1: our communities. Um, some of the ways that folks are

3592
03:21:26,560 --> 03:21:28,680
Speaker 1: talking about this on the Internet shows that they're not

3593
03:21:28,800 --> 03:21:31,920
Speaker 1: people that have had the impact of the criminal legal

3594
03:21:31,959 --> 03:21:34,920
Speaker 1: system necessarily touched their lives, right, Like folks that think

3595
03:21:34,959 --> 03:21:38,080
Speaker 1: they're doing op set on Twitter. But like, if you

3596
03:21:38,160 --> 03:21:41,040
Speaker 1: want to get a manicure, you can come to my

3597
03:21:41,800 --> 03:21:44,200
Speaker 1: state and I'll pick you up for your manicure. And

3598
03:21:44,879 --> 03:21:50,840
Speaker 1: that's when we talk about how cases get put together

3599
03:21:50,920 --> 03:21:53,080
Speaker 1: on the back end. And I think, um Michelle can

3600
03:21:53,200 --> 03:21:55,560
Speaker 1: probably speak to this too, like as a public defender,

3601
03:21:55,600 --> 03:21:58,880
Speaker 1: when you're seeing how when you have a very motivated

3602
03:21:58,959 --> 03:22:01,960
Speaker 1: prosecutor a cop that actually knows how to do their

3603
03:22:02,080 --> 03:22:04,640
Speaker 1: job in the information that they're able to gather when

3604
03:22:04,720 --> 03:22:10,360
Speaker 1: they investigate. Yes, they will pull your tweets. Yes, even

3605
03:22:10,440 --> 03:22:12,800
Speaker 1: if it's not your case, they will pull your tweets

3606
03:22:13,120 --> 03:22:16,040
Speaker 1: and connect that person that got their abortion to the

3607
03:22:16,120 --> 03:22:19,000
Speaker 1: tweets that you put online to show that they intended

3608
03:22:19,040 --> 03:22:21,279
Speaker 1: to go to your place to go and get an abortion,

3609
03:22:21,600 --> 03:22:24,040
Speaker 1: and then try to use those things to prosecute them

3610
03:22:24,120 --> 03:22:26,440
Speaker 1: over here. So even if you're willing to take the

3611
03:22:26,520 --> 03:22:28,600
Speaker 1: risk with your own life, if you're trying to help people,

3612
03:22:28,959 --> 03:22:30,640
Speaker 1: don't put them in a position that they can be

3613
03:22:31,240 --> 03:22:34,039
Speaker 1: harmed by some of the things that we say out loud.

3614
03:22:34,600 --> 03:22:36,440
Speaker 1: Because if you're living in a state where you're not

3615
03:22:36,600 --> 03:22:39,280
Speaker 1: afraid of criminalization, but the person you aren't trying to

3616
03:22:39,360 --> 03:22:41,880
Speaker 1: help is in a state that and they have to

3617
03:22:41,959 --> 03:22:44,480
Speaker 1: go back to somewhere they can be criminalized, you gotta

3618
03:22:44,480 --> 03:22:47,720
Speaker 1: think about how you're protecting them. That's my soapbox rant.

3619
03:22:48,959 --> 03:22:51,800
Speaker 1: I think that's really valuable. Actually this like we start

3620
03:22:51,879 --> 03:22:55,240
Speaker 1: letting the Trump administration to this like legal constitutional magic

3621
03:22:55,680 --> 03:23:01,640
Speaker 1: that like like they steth Abramson, the the Twitter thread

3622
03:23:01,680 --> 03:23:06,560
Speaker 1: guy right like it's it's yeah, it distracts from useful

3623
03:23:06,680 --> 03:23:09,080
Speaker 1: organizing a mutual aid because people are just like, well

3624
03:23:09,120 --> 03:23:10,600
Speaker 1: if this and this and this and this and this,

3625
03:23:10,840 --> 03:23:12,600
Speaker 1: and then like I understand this and no one else

3626
03:23:12,680 --> 03:23:15,040
Speaker 1: does and this is a special secret. And then if

3627
03:23:15,040 --> 03:23:16,760
Speaker 1: we do this and turn around three times and go

3628
03:23:16,879 --> 03:23:19,040
Speaker 1: through the wardrobe and Donald Trump will be impeached or

3629
03:23:19,680 --> 03:23:21,040
Speaker 1: you know, I can give you it a safe a

3630
03:23:21,120 --> 03:23:24,920
Speaker 1: safe of safe access to reproductive healthcare rather than just

3631
03:23:25,040 --> 03:23:27,960
Speaker 1: doing the work. And I think another part of what

3632
03:23:28,120 --> 03:23:29,920
Speaker 1: was going on here and this has been something that like,

3633
03:23:32,879 --> 03:23:34,200
Speaker 1: you know, if you if you talk to people who've

3634
03:23:34,240 --> 03:23:38,640
Speaker 1: been doing this, like okay, if if if this is

3635
03:23:38,680 --> 03:23:40,600
Speaker 1: the thing you genuinely want to do, there are people

3636
03:23:40,640 --> 03:23:42,920
Speaker 1: who have been doing this kind of work for decades

3637
03:23:42,959 --> 03:23:46,040
Speaker 1: and decades and decades of decades, and they know largely

3638
03:23:46,120 --> 03:23:47,720
Speaker 1: what is safe and what isn't and more stuff is

3639
03:23:47,720 --> 03:23:49,680
Speaker 1: a factor for not And the way that this sort

3640
03:23:49,680 --> 03:23:54,720
Speaker 1: of like like the kind of sort of like, hey,

3641
03:23:54,800 --> 03:23:56,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to go do this on my own. I

3642
03:23:56,360 --> 03:23:57,760
Speaker 1: have I've never done this before. I don't know what

3643
03:23:57,800 --> 03:23:59,959
Speaker 1: I'm doing, but here I'm going to sort of signal

3644
03:24:00,080 --> 03:24:02,320
Speaker 1: that I can do this thing. Like, go talk if

3645
03:24:02,360 --> 03:24:03,760
Speaker 1: you want to do those go talk to the people

3646
03:24:03,800 --> 03:24:06,000
Speaker 1: who have been doing it for ages, and go support

3647
03:24:06,040 --> 03:24:09,880
Speaker 1: them because, like you know, again, like the reason the

3648
03:24:09,920 --> 03:24:11,720
Speaker 1: reason we're here in the first place is because that

3649
03:24:11,879 --> 03:24:16,120
Speaker 1: this whole, like the entire right to abortion has for

3650
03:24:16,600 --> 03:24:20,119
Speaker 1: literally decades, been supported by just a really tiny number

3651
03:24:20,280 --> 03:24:25,800
Speaker 1: of incredibly underfunded and understaffed people in organizations. So like,

3652
03:24:26,000 --> 03:24:29,320
Speaker 1: go help them, don't like strike out on your own

3653
03:24:29,400 --> 03:24:32,600
Speaker 1: to boldly get you and everyone you're working with arrested. Yeah,

3654
03:24:32,840 --> 03:24:34,360
Speaker 1: I think you know some of that is you know,

3655
03:24:34,440 --> 03:24:36,920
Speaker 1: I think some people have some good intentions, but my god,

3656
03:24:37,040 --> 03:24:38,840
Speaker 1: like that energy can be spent in so much more

3657
03:24:38,879 --> 03:24:41,760
Speaker 1: productive ways, and it's it's kind of unfortunate. I think

3658
03:24:41,800 --> 03:24:43,680
Speaker 1: that the worst aspect of it, though, is like the

3659
03:24:43,760 --> 03:24:45,640
Speaker 1: tech bros coming in and being like, I'm going to

3660
03:24:45,760 --> 03:24:49,920
Speaker 1: save this space with We're going to create a dow

3661
03:24:50,360 --> 03:24:53,879
Speaker 1: and like distribute funds, and I'm like, oh my god,

3662
03:24:54,120 --> 03:24:56,720
Speaker 1: Like I'm just sitting here, like, you know, because this

3663
03:24:56,879 --> 03:25:00,400
Speaker 1: is something like you know, I've looked into is students

3664
03:25:00,560 --> 03:25:03,080
Speaker 1: like this earlier this year, like you know, how payment

3665
03:25:03,160 --> 03:25:08,080
Speaker 1: transactions could be used, um and basically how there's basically

3666
03:25:08,080 --> 03:25:11,200
Speaker 1: almost no security with with payment transactions, right, like like

3667
03:25:11,280 --> 03:25:13,680
Speaker 1: if you're using Venmo, which which in and of itself

3668
03:25:13,760 --> 03:25:16,600
Speaker 1: has like a social media function, so like you know,

3669
03:25:16,680 --> 03:25:19,480
Speaker 1: you can see when you're your friend, you know, Joe

3670
03:25:19,720 --> 03:25:23,040
Speaker 1: is like getting brunch on Sunday, and like, you know,

3671
03:25:23,160 --> 03:25:24,560
Speaker 1: they could you know, if you're not sending that to

3672
03:25:24,680 --> 03:25:27,320
Speaker 1: private by default, like that that's already a problem. But basically,

3673
03:25:27,400 --> 03:25:30,080
Speaker 1: like you know, they can get access to those records

3674
03:25:30,120 --> 03:25:33,480
Speaker 1: pretty easily, um, in a much easier way. And you know,

3675
03:25:33,560 --> 03:25:35,119
Speaker 1: one of the things we we we started to look

3676
03:25:35,120 --> 03:25:36,840
Speaker 1: at like towards the end was like, oh you know

3677
03:25:37,600 --> 03:25:39,440
Speaker 1: has you know had some some students being like, well,

3678
03:25:39,680 --> 03:25:41,920
Speaker 1: can you can you use krypto? Can you use like bitcoin?

3679
03:25:42,000 --> 03:25:44,120
Speaker 1: It's like you still have to interact at some point

3680
03:25:44,160 --> 03:25:46,920
Speaker 1: with a financial institution and they can tie these things back.

3681
03:25:47,040 --> 03:25:50,320
Speaker 1: It is not that exceptionally hard, especially like now it's

3682
03:25:50,440 --> 03:25:52,960
Speaker 1: been shown that like coin bases like cooperating with the

3683
03:25:53,040 --> 03:25:55,320
Speaker 1: FEDS and basically acting like a giant honey pot. So

3684
03:25:56,080 --> 03:25:59,040
Speaker 1: like I just I finally wish that people would just

3685
03:25:59,800 --> 03:26:02,520
Speaker 1: like realize that like technology is not going to save

3686
03:26:02,600 --> 03:26:06,879
Speaker 1: us here, Like it can help if used wisely and creatively,

3687
03:26:07,080 --> 03:26:09,400
Speaker 1: but don't think that like you're just gonna like do

3688
03:26:09,560 --> 03:26:11,600
Speaker 1: this one little neat trick, like as James was saying,

3689
03:26:11,720 --> 03:26:14,760
Speaker 1: and then suddenly we're gonna fix this because it's not right,

3690
03:26:14,840 --> 03:26:18,000
Speaker 1: Like this is going to take a million different solutions

3691
03:26:18,080 --> 03:26:20,959
Speaker 1: with a million different people doing all the little things

3692
03:26:21,000 --> 03:26:22,640
Speaker 1: that they can to push back. And like that's one

3693
03:26:22,640 --> 03:26:24,200
Speaker 1: of the things I think we we tried to be

3694
03:26:24,440 --> 03:26:27,040
Speaker 1: very hopble about in our papers, like look, none of

3695
03:26:27,120 --> 03:26:29,400
Speaker 1: this is a silver bullet. We're just trying to provide

3696
03:26:29,520 --> 03:26:33,800
Speaker 1: some concrete solutions that states can take and some stuff

3697
03:26:33,840 --> 03:26:36,040
Speaker 1: that they can take, but we realize that nothing is

3698
03:26:36,120 --> 03:26:38,040
Speaker 1: ever going to be perfect to solve this kind of

3699
03:26:38,080 --> 03:26:40,920
Speaker 1: Pandora's box. It's been opened by a Lido and all

3700
03:26:40,959 --> 03:26:44,520
Speaker 1: these like right wing reactionaries on the court. So like,

3701
03:26:44,760 --> 03:26:47,119
Speaker 1: I guess speaking of things that are not silver bullets

3702
03:26:47,160 --> 03:26:50,640
Speaker 1: and will not save us. Um, Yeah, I guess could

3703
03:26:50,680 --> 03:26:53,960
Speaker 1: we get a bit more into looking at what the

3704
03:26:54,120 --> 03:26:56,360
Speaker 1: sort of like It's like a lot of the article

3705
03:26:56,520 --> 03:27:05,000
Speaker 1: is talking about I guess, the the the history of extradition, uh,

3706
03:27:05,080 --> 03:27:07,279
Speaker 1: and how how that sort of been understood and interpreted,

3707
03:27:07,280 --> 03:27:09,120
Speaker 1: And so I guess I was wondering, Yeah, can we

3708
03:27:09,200 --> 03:27:13,840
Speaker 1: go into talking about what the sort of legal stuff

3709
03:27:13,959 --> 03:27:15,800
Speaker 1: is going to look like when it's like, you know,

3710
03:27:15,920 --> 03:27:18,320
Speaker 1: if if we start getting these large showdowns between like

3711
03:27:18,600 --> 03:27:21,240
Speaker 1: states with like actually sort of like you know, if

3712
03:27:21,280 --> 03:27:24,760
Speaker 1: states actually start trying to have sanctuary laws that are

3713
03:27:24,879 --> 03:27:27,200
Speaker 1: like have teeth and are good, what what what is

3714
03:27:27,240 --> 03:27:29,280
Speaker 1: that sort of what is that going to look like? Yeah,

3715
03:27:29,400 --> 03:27:31,560
Speaker 1: So this is a kind of part that I focused

3716
03:27:31,600 --> 03:27:33,680
Speaker 1: on in the article. And so basically a lot of

3717
03:27:33,680 --> 03:27:36,040
Speaker 1: people aren't aware about this because it's not really a

3718
03:27:36,520 --> 03:27:39,439
Speaker 1: contested area of the Constitution. But basically when the Constitution

3719
03:27:39,520 --> 03:27:42,920
Speaker 1: was drafted um and ratified, it contained what was called

3720
03:27:42,920 --> 03:27:45,760
Speaker 1: the extradition Clause, and basically what it said is that,

3721
03:27:46,320 --> 03:27:49,840
Speaker 1: you know, all the states have a duty to turn

3722
03:27:50,000 --> 03:27:54,240
Speaker 1: over fugitives from other states that have been charged with

3723
03:27:54,360 --> 03:27:57,080
Speaker 1: the crime and have fled into those states. Is the

3724
03:27:57,200 --> 03:27:59,080
Speaker 1: United States kind of where it's a federal system, so

3725
03:27:59,200 --> 03:28:01,160
Speaker 1: like every state is still considered kind of its own

3726
03:28:01,240 --> 03:28:04,600
Speaker 1: sovereign in some ways, in a very quasi sovereign way.

3727
03:28:05,000 --> 03:28:07,240
Speaker 1: And so there was a question about, you know, since

3728
03:28:07,280 --> 03:28:12,119
Speaker 1: all criminal prosecutions, basically especially the inception of the United States,

3729
03:28:12,160 --> 03:28:14,800
Speaker 1: were done at the state level, you know, what what

3730
03:28:14,920 --> 03:28:18,200
Speaker 1: happens when somebody crosses and across state lines? Like how

3731
03:28:18,240 --> 03:28:20,720
Speaker 1: are we going to handle that? And so basically this

3732
03:28:20,959 --> 03:28:23,720
Speaker 1: was you know, one of the drafts. And initially they

3733
03:28:23,840 --> 03:28:25,760
Speaker 1: tried to set it at a higher bar, like to

3734
03:28:25,840 --> 03:28:28,200
Speaker 1: be like high crimes and misdemeanors, similar to kind of

3735
03:28:28,280 --> 03:28:34,000
Speaker 1: the impeachment clause, and you know, they whittled it down

3736
03:28:34,040 --> 03:28:37,840
Speaker 1: to and basically made it very applicable as at all crimes, um.

3737
03:28:38,040 --> 03:28:41,720
Speaker 1: But it really did not get much play until basically

3738
03:28:41,760 --> 03:28:46,280
Speaker 1: in the eighteen forties when obviously, the tension around slavery

3739
03:28:46,560 --> 03:28:50,600
Speaker 1: picked up, right, So you had enslaved people escaping to

3740
03:28:50,680 --> 03:28:53,640
Speaker 1: the north and the South being very angry about that

3741
03:28:53,760 --> 03:28:57,240
Speaker 1: and wanting the North to to return. Um then escaped

3742
03:28:57,360 --> 03:29:01,960
Speaker 1: enslave folks and the North being like no. And Congress

3743
03:29:02,200 --> 03:29:06,920
Speaker 1: tried to figure out a way to like thread some

3744
03:29:07,000 --> 03:29:09,160
Speaker 1: kind of needle, but made it ten times worse and

3745
03:29:09,200 --> 03:29:11,720
Speaker 1: put us on an accelerating path towards Civil war by

3746
03:29:11,760 --> 03:29:15,600
Speaker 1: passing the Fugitive Slave Act of eighteen fifty. And a

3747
03:29:15,680 --> 03:29:19,640
Speaker 1: bunch of radical abolitionists in the Northeast were like, we

3748
03:29:19,879 --> 03:29:21,920
Speaker 1: don't ever want to comply with this, right, So like

3749
03:29:22,080 --> 03:29:25,280
Speaker 1: Vermont passed this bill called the Habeas Corpus Act, which

3750
03:29:25,320 --> 03:29:30,080
Speaker 1: basically created all kinds of legal procedures so that Southern

3751
03:29:30,240 --> 03:29:33,120
Speaker 1: bounty hunters wouldn't just come into the state and just kidnap,

3752
03:29:33,440 --> 03:29:35,879
Speaker 1: you know, the first black person they saw, because they

3753
03:29:35,920 --> 03:29:38,200
Speaker 1: assumed that they were been an escaped and slave person

3754
03:29:38,320 --> 03:29:41,560
Speaker 1: rather than a free person. And you know, and it

3755
03:29:41,720 --> 03:29:44,080
Speaker 1: was trying to stop that kind of issue of kidnappings

3756
03:29:44,240 --> 03:29:46,600
Speaker 1: and also just not to comply with this, you know,

3757
03:29:46,760 --> 03:29:50,040
Speaker 1: the institution of slavery, because there were people who had

3758
03:29:50,240 --> 03:29:53,480
Speaker 1: escaped slavery and were in the North, and so it

3759
03:29:53,640 --> 03:29:56,680
Speaker 1: was causing all kinds of tension. And while like the

3760
03:29:57,240 --> 03:30:01,000
Speaker 1: Vermont Law was never fully tested, it did create a

3761
03:30:01,040 --> 03:30:03,760
Speaker 1: lot of incendiary back and force between the North and

3762
03:30:03,840 --> 03:30:06,400
Speaker 1: the South and then the press, and it was really

3763
03:30:06,440 --> 03:30:09,440
Speaker 1: interesting like reading some of these old newspaper articles from

3764
03:30:09,480 --> 03:30:12,320
Speaker 1: the eighteen like from eighteen fifty, because it was like

3765
03:30:12,400 --> 03:30:14,880
Speaker 1: basically the press and Richmond and the press in Boston

3766
03:30:15,000 --> 03:30:17,760
Speaker 1: like taking stabs at each other. And it was like

3767
03:30:18,360 --> 03:30:21,360
Speaker 1: the eighteen fifty version of ship posting, because they were

3768
03:30:21,440 --> 03:30:24,880
Speaker 1: like one person was just like this is nullification made easy,

3769
03:30:25,240 --> 03:30:28,920
Speaker 1: and like basically with like it's just it was. It

3770
03:30:29,000 --> 03:30:31,120
Speaker 1: was the surreal thing like if you know, if you

3771
03:30:31,200 --> 03:30:33,280
Speaker 1: get a chance when when our full article comes out

3772
03:30:33,280 --> 03:30:36,520
Speaker 1: in December, there'll be some some highlights from that and

3773
03:30:36,600 --> 03:30:40,800
Speaker 1: the notes um. But basically what it really got tested

3774
03:30:40,920 --> 03:30:43,240
Speaker 1: was in eighteen sixty one. The case started in eighteen

3775
03:30:43,280 --> 03:30:46,040
Speaker 1: fifty nine, though it's called Kentucky be Dennisent and so

3776
03:30:46,120 --> 03:30:48,879
Speaker 1: what what essentially happened is there was someone who aided

3777
03:30:49,600 --> 03:30:52,680
Speaker 1: Um and it's like person escape Kentucky and get to

3778
03:30:52,840 --> 03:30:56,680
Speaker 1: Ohio and basically the governor of Ohio was an abolitionist

3779
03:30:56,720 --> 03:30:58,160
Speaker 1: and was like, I don't want to comply with this

3780
03:30:58,400 --> 03:31:00,440
Speaker 1: right and I do not want to I don't believe

3781
03:31:00,480 --> 03:31:01,760
Speaker 1: like this is a crime because this is not a

3782
03:31:01,840 --> 03:31:05,440
Speaker 1: crime in our state. And the Attorney General of Ohio

3783
03:31:05,560 --> 03:31:08,680
Speaker 1: basically wrote a long legal memo stating that this this

3784
03:31:08,879 --> 03:31:11,280
Speaker 1: is a crime not known to the laws of civilization

3785
03:31:11,400 --> 03:31:14,920
Speaker 1: or man. So basically, yeah, they thought they want to

3786
03:31:15,000 --> 03:31:18,000
Speaker 1: read to the Supreme Court. And Chief Justice Taney also

3787
03:31:18,080 --> 03:31:22,560
Speaker 1: notable for dread Scott decisions, so like absolutely just terrible

3788
03:31:22,640 --> 03:31:25,000
Speaker 1: court like they were. This came I think about like

3789
03:31:25,080 --> 03:31:26,880
Speaker 1: three weeks before the Civil Wars. This is like I

3790
03:31:26,920 --> 03:31:28,800
Speaker 1: think it's in in like March of eighteen six one,

3791
03:31:29,280 --> 03:31:32,880
Speaker 1: so basically like three weeks before Fort Sumter got like

3792
03:31:33,520 --> 03:31:36,760
Speaker 1: sacked by by the south Um. But basically what it

3793
03:31:36,879 --> 03:31:40,879
Speaker 1: did was is that it said states actually can't utilize

3794
03:31:40,920 --> 03:31:45,840
Speaker 1: any discretion in extradition. So like the like the governor

3795
03:31:45,879 --> 03:31:47,960
Speaker 1: of Ohio can't say, like, I have concerns about human

3796
03:31:48,040 --> 03:31:49,879
Speaker 1: rights and that this isn't a crime in our state. Right,

3797
03:31:49,920 --> 03:31:53,680
Speaker 1: there's not this dual criminality analysis, and we're concerned about

3798
03:31:53,720 --> 03:31:55,840
Speaker 1: human rights and all these things. So the Supreme court

3799
03:31:55,879 --> 03:32:00,720
Speaker 1: basically said no, states don't have that discretion, which you know,

3800
03:32:01,280 --> 03:32:04,240
Speaker 1: but they essentially split the baby by by then saying

3801
03:32:04,680 --> 03:32:07,000
Speaker 1: federal courts can't issue a rid of and NamUs, which

3802
03:32:07,040 --> 03:32:10,600
Speaker 1: is basically an order for a government official to do something. Um.

3803
03:32:10,720 --> 03:32:12,400
Speaker 1: They said that federal courts couldn't do that to a

3804
03:32:12,480 --> 03:32:14,960
Speaker 1: state governor an extradition. So basically it means that like,

3805
03:32:15,040 --> 03:32:17,400
Speaker 1: states don't have discretion, but federal courts can enforce it.

3806
03:32:17,520 --> 03:32:21,160
Speaker 1: So therefore it's just a non issue. Right. Fast forward

3807
03:32:21,240 --> 03:32:24,240
Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty years and we get to a

3808
03:32:24,320 --> 03:32:28,440
Speaker 1: case called Perdorico v. Brand's Dad, which basically, somebody committed

3809
03:32:28,480 --> 03:32:32,640
Speaker 1: murder in Perto Rico, fled back to Iowa, and then

3810
03:32:33,360 --> 03:32:35,280
Speaker 1: was sought for extradition back to Pertorico. And there's a

3811
03:32:35,360 --> 03:32:38,720
Speaker 1: huge element of racism here because you know, they were

3812
03:32:38,720 --> 03:32:40,480
Speaker 1: concerned that a white man couldn't get a fair trial

3813
03:32:40,520 --> 03:32:44,400
Speaker 1: in Puerto Rico, which is just deeply offensive. Um. And

3814
03:32:44,560 --> 03:32:45,960
Speaker 1: so they were. And there was also a question of

3815
03:32:46,000 --> 03:32:48,840
Speaker 1: like territoriality, right because Perdorico is a territory. I wasn't

3816
03:32:48,840 --> 03:32:51,520
Speaker 1: sure if they had to comply with the extradition clause.

3817
03:32:52,040 --> 03:32:56,600
Speaker 1: And so essentially the Supreme Court said, yes, federal courts

3818
03:32:56,720 --> 03:33:02,359
Speaker 1: can comply with or can't issue a rid of mandamus

3819
03:33:02,440 --> 03:33:05,600
Speaker 1: to to ensure extradition. So essentially what it did was

3820
03:33:05,680 --> 03:33:08,280
Speaker 1: it partially overturned the Kentucky be dens In case, but

3821
03:33:08,480 --> 03:33:11,280
Speaker 1: upheld the central ruling. The basics, states have no discretion.

3822
03:33:11,920 --> 03:33:15,920
Speaker 1: So what does that mean? Basically that states can't really

3823
03:33:16,200 --> 03:33:22,480
Speaker 1: stop the extradition of someone in their in their um jurisdiction,

3824
03:33:22,959 --> 03:33:25,840
Speaker 1: even if they have extreme concerns. Right, So if you have, like,

3825
03:33:25,959 --> 03:33:28,720
Speaker 1: let's say, going back to Michelle's example earlier, someone who

3826
03:33:28,840 --> 03:33:32,360
Speaker 1: sends their friends like abortion pills from New York to

3827
03:33:32,600 --> 03:33:35,800
Speaker 1: let's say Texas, right, and Texas is seeking extradition in

3828
03:33:35,840 --> 03:33:37,560
Speaker 1: New York's like, well, that's not a crime here, so

3829
03:33:37,920 --> 03:33:40,720
Speaker 1: we don't want to extradite um. You know, the states

3830
03:33:40,760 --> 03:33:42,879
Speaker 1: would typically be hard pressed. But there's kind of two

3831
03:33:43,040 --> 03:33:46,080
Speaker 1: kind of or there's one major issue with like the

3832
03:33:46,160 --> 03:33:49,879
Speaker 1: extradition part right, actually has to apply to someone who's

3833
03:33:50,240 --> 03:33:52,960
Speaker 1: quote unquote an actual fugitive, meaning that they had to

3834
03:33:53,000 --> 03:33:56,879
Speaker 1: actually be present in the state when the crime occurred,

3835
03:33:57,600 --> 03:34:01,360
Speaker 1: and the commission of the crime can't in itself create

3836
03:34:01,480 --> 03:34:05,840
Speaker 1: what's called constructive presence. You have to be corporeally present

3837
03:34:06,000 --> 03:34:08,160
Speaker 1: in the state, meaning you have to be physically present.

3838
03:34:08,280 --> 03:34:10,520
Speaker 1: You can't just like the commission of the crime doesn't

3839
03:34:10,800 --> 03:34:15,000
Speaker 1: constitute that. So in this instance, um, you know, the

3840
03:34:15,040 --> 03:34:18,000
Speaker 1: person who says a pill in York technically like constitutionally

3841
03:34:18,120 --> 03:34:20,080
Speaker 1: does not have to be extradited, right, Like they can

3842
03:34:20,120 --> 03:34:23,960
Speaker 1: contest that. The problem is, as Michelle pointed out, is

3843
03:34:24,040 --> 03:34:28,600
Speaker 1: that you know, the extradition causes it exist today is

3844
03:34:28,600 --> 03:34:34,520
Speaker 1: pretty much almost entirely just a formality that is waived

3845
03:34:34,600 --> 03:34:38,800
Speaker 1: basically almost every single time. And so the courts, the

3846
03:34:39,240 --> 03:34:43,640
Speaker 1: like the state attorneys, the district attorneys, even defense attorneys

3847
03:34:43,760 --> 03:34:45,760
Speaker 1: might not be familiar with that and might not know

3848
03:34:45,920 --> 03:34:48,600
Speaker 1: that that's something that they can potentially contest or it's

3849
03:34:48,640 --> 03:34:51,880
Speaker 1: even something that they can um that that is a

3850
03:34:51,920 --> 03:34:54,600
Speaker 1: potential constitutional issue, right And so that's one of the

3851
03:34:54,640 --> 03:34:57,360
Speaker 1: things that we focused on is our potential solution, um

3852
03:34:57,720 --> 03:35:01,840
Speaker 1: is to ensure that people who were not present in

3853
03:35:01,920 --> 03:35:05,840
Speaker 1: the state where the actor occurred are able to mount

3854
03:35:06,240 --> 03:35:09,879
Speaker 1: a challenge to the extradition. Um. You know, it creates

3855
03:35:09,879 --> 03:35:14,080
Speaker 1: all kinds of other problems because there's still federal extradition,

3856
03:35:14,240 --> 03:35:16,560
Speaker 1: meaning like if you leave this the country and come

3857
03:35:16,600 --> 03:35:18,920
Speaker 1: back in like border patrol could potentially get you. We

3858
03:35:19,000 --> 03:35:22,520
Speaker 1: still don't have a clear understanding of how that necessarily

3859
03:35:22,560 --> 03:35:26,440
Speaker 1: would work, um, you know, because that's never been a

3860
03:35:26,480 --> 03:35:30,080
Speaker 1: question that's like fully resolved. So you know, basically, you know,

3861
03:35:30,080 --> 03:35:31,040
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, like we want to

3862
03:35:31,080 --> 03:35:33,680
Speaker 1: make sure that like folks are aware of that. But

3863
03:35:33,840 --> 03:35:36,880
Speaker 1: like the folks that like leave Texas, right, so, like

3864
03:35:36,959 --> 03:35:39,320
Speaker 1: if you commit an abortion, you were charged in Texas

3865
03:35:39,360 --> 03:35:41,360
Speaker 1: and you go to New York, Like New York is

3866
03:35:41,400 --> 03:35:43,800
Speaker 1: not going to have very many options to protect you

3867
03:35:44,040 --> 03:35:47,880
Speaker 1: from being extradited back to Texas. UM. And so you know,

3868
03:35:47,959 --> 03:35:51,160
Speaker 1: one of the things that you know, I fundamentally believe

3869
03:35:51,240 --> 03:35:55,080
Speaker 1: Kentucky be Dennison was wrong. Was wrongly decided on the

3870
03:35:55,160 --> 03:35:58,640
Speaker 1: sense that state shouldn't be able to have a concern

3871
03:35:58,720 --> 03:36:01,320
Speaker 1: around human rights because it essentially acts as a one

3872
03:36:01,360 --> 03:36:05,160
Speaker 1: way ratchet where the states with the most regressive anti

3873
03:36:05,280 --> 03:36:08,920
Speaker 1: human rights criminal justice laws get to have like get

3874
03:36:09,000 --> 03:36:12,520
Speaker 1: to dictate that over all of the other states. Similar

3875
03:36:12,560 --> 03:36:17,080
Speaker 1: to how um slavery, like the southern states were trying

3876
03:36:17,200 --> 03:36:21,120
Speaker 1: to enforce the institutional slavery on northern states that had

3877
03:36:21,280 --> 03:36:23,800
Speaker 1: that had abolished slavery decades ago, so it's a very

3878
03:36:23,879 --> 03:36:28,199
Speaker 1: complicated issue. And again I reached back to that slavery

3879
03:36:28,400 --> 03:36:31,800
Speaker 1: analysis because not because I think that, you know, the

3880
03:36:31,920 --> 03:36:34,880
Speaker 1: slavery and abortions should be compared directly, but because this

3881
03:36:34,959 --> 03:36:37,120
Speaker 1: is like, this is fun eventually the last time where

3882
03:36:37,160 --> 03:36:40,440
Speaker 1: you have criminal laws that are so different between states,

3883
03:36:40,840 --> 03:36:45,280
Speaker 1: Like one state's human right is another state's capital crime.

3884
03:36:45,800 --> 03:36:49,720
Speaker 1: Like if you can't get further apart than that. Yeah,

3885
03:36:49,800 --> 03:36:54,320
Speaker 1: And I wanted to just clarify for folks. If I

3886
03:36:54,640 --> 03:36:58,640
Speaker 1: drove the pill to Texas, then I would have committed

3887
03:36:58,680 --> 03:37:01,280
Speaker 1: the crime in Texas, and New York could extradite me

3888
03:37:01,959 --> 03:37:04,160
Speaker 1: um and I what I also think I'm sort of

3889
03:37:04,280 --> 03:37:06,920
Speaker 1: here is the what happens on the ground, right, So

3890
03:37:07,080 --> 03:37:13,800
Speaker 1: if you to be clear, while as Alejanda correctly points,

3891
03:37:13,840 --> 03:37:15,440
Speaker 1: if I just mailed it to Texas and they have

3892
03:37:15,520 --> 03:37:18,400
Speaker 1: the warrant while we're sorting out this extradition warrant, I

3893
03:37:18,520 --> 03:37:21,920
Speaker 1: am very likely incarcerated and the sorting out of the

3894
03:37:21,959 --> 03:37:25,840
Speaker 1: extradition warrant will probably take ninety days. So just because

3895
03:37:26,080 --> 03:37:28,080
Speaker 1: I think folks get confused with this a lot, just

3896
03:37:28,200 --> 03:37:32,920
Speaker 1: because something is illegal doesn't mean or your lawyers arguing

3897
03:37:32,959 --> 03:37:36,200
Speaker 1: it's illegal doesn't mean it just magically stops um or

3898
03:37:36,320 --> 03:37:40,480
Speaker 1: the process ends. And so this is something where we

3899
03:37:40,680 --> 03:37:47,040
Speaker 1: think that, um, really there should be a basis to

3900
03:37:47,200 --> 03:37:51,400
Speaker 1: contest your extradition on a human rights ground on two grounds,

3901
03:37:51,480 --> 03:37:54,440
Speaker 1: Either there is no dual criminality, that is, this is

3902
03:37:54,520 --> 03:37:58,840
Speaker 1: not actually a crime, and the other state Interestingly, here,

3903
03:37:59,040 --> 03:38:01,160
Speaker 1: handing someone a person scription pill in New York is

3904
03:38:01,160 --> 03:38:03,560
Speaker 1: actually a felony, whether or not you get money for it.

3905
03:38:03,920 --> 03:38:06,000
Speaker 1: Most folks don't know that he's smiling because she also

3906
03:38:06,040 --> 03:38:09,720
Speaker 1: has a public defender in New York City. Um, because

3907
03:38:09,760 --> 03:38:11,600
Speaker 1: it blows your mind. You're like, wait, they just handed

3908
03:38:11,600 --> 03:38:13,320
Speaker 1: it to them. There's no money exchange. Yeah, that's a

3909
03:38:13,360 --> 03:38:16,400
Speaker 1: felony drug sale, So we might have dual criminality. New

3910
03:38:16,440 --> 03:38:20,160
Speaker 1: York might actually say, um, you did do a crime,

3911
03:38:20,240 --> 03:38:22,119
Speaker 1: so I will extradite you, Which is why we think

3912
03:38:22,120 --> 03:38:25,320
Speaker 1: there also needs to be a human rights defense. And

3913
03:38:25,440 --> 03:38:27,880
Speaker 1: this may also extend to, well, we're not going to

3914
03:38:28,000 --> 03:38:30,480
Speaker 1: extradite them to Texas because they have the death penalty

3915
03:38:30,640 --> 03:38:33,960
Speaker 1: and we think that is a clear contravention of human rights.

3916
03:38:34,480 --> 03:38:36,640
Speaker 1: Maybe we can extend it to prison conditions. I don't

3917
03:38:36,680 --> 03:38:38,840
Speaker 1: know how that far that goes again, these are things

3918
03:38:38,879 --> 03:38:40,760
Speaker 1: I don't know they'd be likely to be codified. But

3919
03:38:40,840 --> 03:38:42,800
Speaker 1: if we're actually dreaming up the world that we think

3920
03:38:42,800 --> 03:38:45,760
Speaker 1: where this could work, like I, as your attorney, should

3921
03:38:45,760 --> 03:38:47,720
Speaker 1: be able to come in and say there's no dual criminality,

3922
03:38:48,000 --> 03:38:50,640
Speaker 1: this isn't contravention of human rights. And once I mount

3923
03:38:50,680 --> 03:38:55,120
Speaker 1: that defense, then the court is bound to release you

3924
03:38:55,560 --> 03:38:58,880
Speaker 1: while we sort that out. Um and and that is

3925
03:38:58,920 --> 03:39:02,959
Speaker 1: sort of our vision. Another thing that that Alejandro mentioned

3926
03:39:03,080 --> 03:39:06,960
Speaker 1: the ver the Vermont law in the eighteen hundreds, and

3927
03:39:07,000 --> 03:39:09,320
Speaker 1: one of the things that it said was you could

3928
03:39:09,360 --> 03:39:13,000
Speaker 1: get a jury of your peers in a situation like this.

3929
03:39:13,400 --> 03:39:16,440
Speaker 1: There's no jury in an extradition case. But the idea,

3930
03:39:16,480 --> 03:39:18,160
Speaker 1: of course, is that a jury is going to say

3931
03:39:18,200 --> 03:39:21,240
Speaker 1: this is morally wrong. I don't care what the law says,

3932
03:39:21,280 --> 03:39:23,560
Speaker 1: We're not sending this person back to enslavement. And the

3933
03:39:23,680 --> 03:39:27,000
Speaker 1: idea here is if you put a jury in and

3934
03:39:27,080 --> 03:39:30,120
Speaker 1: you assert of human rights defense, perhaps the jury will say, no,

3935
03:39:30,280 --> 03:39:32,200
Speaker 1: we're not sending you. So these are these are a

3936
03:39:32,280 --> 03:39:34,960
Speaker 1: lot of ideas that we've been coming up with. So

3937
03:39:35,040 --> 03:39:40,440
Speaker 1: we're doing the plan. There was jury nullification, yes, it

3938
03:39:40,520 --> 03:39:44,760
Speaker 1: absolutely was. It absolutely was jury nullification of love love

3939
03:39:44,840 --> 03:39:49,480
Speaker 1: love love love love jury nullification. I anybody with the

3940
03:39:49,560 --> 03:39:51,879
Speaker 1: law review that's listening to this, let me write about

3941
03:39:51,920 --> 03:39:54,840
Speaker 1: jury nullification for you and feel like, but but we

3942
03:39:54,959 --> 03:39:57,200
Speaker 1: we we. I feel like I have been wanting to

3943
03:39:57,320 --> 03:40:00,400
Speaker 1: explain jury nalification on this show. Literally sense the like

3944
03:40:01,080 --> 03:40:07,320
Speaker 1: I asked the first week coming back for the next one.

3945
03:40:07,760 --> 03:40:10,520
Speaker 1: So there's something that I don't want to be lost.

3946
03:40:11,080 --> 03:40:14,520
Speaker 1: And that's the idea of like, people don't necessarily know

3947
03:40:14,720 --> 03:40:18,480
Speaker 1: what they're being charged with in the state that's asking

3948
03:40:18,600 --> 03:40:21,440
Speaker 1: for them to go back, because there's not really a

3949
03:40:21,520 --> 03:40:25,200
Speaker 1: requirement that that. So for an extradition, like thinking through

3950
03:40:25,280 --> 03:40:28,720
Speaker 1: what you actually need, like the bare bones of an extradition.

3951
03:40:28,840 --> 03:40:31,440
Speaker 1: It needs to be like a piece of paper that's

3952
03:40:31,440 --> 03:40:34,520
Speaker 1: signed by the governor, but not necessarily the governor of

3953
03:40:34,600 --> 03:40:36,800
Speaker 1: the state, but somebody with authority to ask for you

3954
03:40:36,920 --> 03:40:41,680
Speaker 1: to return back. And that's in essence it right, just

3955
03:40:41,800 --> 03:40:44,680
Speaker 1: like a piece of paper signed by somebody that says

3956
03:40:45,120 --> 03:40:47,760
Speaker 1: x y Z birthdate, x y Z did a crime

3957
03:40:47,800 --> 03:40:51,080
Speaker 1: in our state. Give them back to us. Right, they

3958
03:40:51,120 --> 03:40:54,320
Speaker 1: don't have to say what crime. Not really a requirement

3959
03:40:54,400 --> 03:40:57,600
Speaker 1: it usually says it, but it doesn't. It doesn't require

3960
03:40:57,879 --> 03:41:01,000
Speaker 1: a probable cause, Affid David, I think is really the

3961
03:41:01,080 --> 03:41:04,600
Speaker 1: more important part. It doesn't require you to prove that

3962
03:41:04,800 --> 03:41:07,280
Speaker 1: there is enough to charge them with a crime in

3963
03:41:07,400 --> 03:41:10,880
Speaker 1: the sending state. Right, So we're saying that's a bare

3964
03:41:10,920 --> 03:41:14,160
Speaker 1: minimum change that we can make two laws to make

3965
03:41:14,280 --> 03:41:17,240
Speaker 1: the state that's asking for you to use your resources

3966
03:41:17,680 --> 03:41:20,240
Speaker 1: to put somebody in a cage and then put them

3967
03:41:20,280 --> 03:41:24,600
Speaker 1: in a traveling cage to bring them to our cages. Um.

3968
03:41:24,879 --> 03:41:26,680
Speaker 1: And I keep saying the word cage because I don't

3969
03:41:26,680 --> 03:41:29,000
Speaker 1: want us to move away from what like prisons and

3970
03:41:29,080 --> 03:41:32,720
Speaker 1: jails actually are. It's like bars and cages and boxes. Right,

3971
03:41:33,120 --> 03:41:37,760
Speaker 1: So it doesn't really harm the system, doesn't really tear

3972
03:41:37,879 --> 03:41:41,760
Speaker 1: yall apart to say, and here's what they're being charged

3973
03:41:41,800 --> 03:41:44,280
Speaker 1: within the reason why because that would be the bare

3974
03:41:44,360 --> 03:41:47,400
Speaker 1: minimum for someone to be charged for a crime in

3975
03:41:47,440 --> 03:41:49,280
Speaker 1: New York. You would need to have probable cause for

3976
03:41:49,320 --> 03:41:51,600
Speaker 1: the arrest, and then a judge that's sitting on the

3977
03:41:51,680 --> 03:41:54,440
Speaker 1: bench gets to say, Yep, there's enough probable cause for

3978
03:41:54,520 --> 03:41:56,800
Speaker 1: this person to be charged next court date, you know.

3979
03:41:57,320 --> 03:41:59,320
Speaker 1: And but we don't have that with extradition. We just

3980
03:41:59,440 --> 03:42:03,720
Speaker 1: trust that the wheels of bureaucracy are turning the way

3981
03:42:03,840 --> 03:42:06,560
Speaker 1: that they need to. Holy crap, that can harm so

3982
03:42:06,680 --> 03:42:09,840
Speaker 1: many people. So we're just saying, hey, make them write

3983
03:42:09,879 --> 03:42:13,320
Speaker 1: it down. So maybe a judge that's sitting in Illinois

3984
03:42:13,560 --> 03:42:15,960
Speaker 1: can look at this warrant from Missouri that says we

3985
03:42:16,080 --> 03:42:18,200
Speaker 1: want X y Z back here because of a self

3986
03:42:18,280 --> 03:42:21,680
Speaker 1: managed abortion, and then they can see whether or not

3987
03:42:21,800 --> 03:42:25,360
Speaker 1: Illinois's new fancy extradition law, which they haven't written up

3988
03:42:25,360 --> 03:42:28,760
Speaker 1: and I'm sure they will, applies, right. I think that's

3989
03:42:28,800 --> 03:42:31,400
Speaker 1: a bare minimum that we can do. And as much

3990
03:42:31,520 --> 03:42:34,640
Speaker 1: as I crave shaking systems and tearing them apart, I

3991
03:42:34,720 --> 03:42:36,760
Speaker 1: don't think that's going to be a thing that does it.

3992
03:42:37,240 --> 03:42:40,160
Speaker 1: But it might. You know, have y'all ever played Mario Kart,

3993
03:42:41,000 --> 03:42:42,920
Speaker 1: You know, when you're driving and you're able to throw

3994
03:42:43,080 --> 03:42:45,640
Speaker 1: like the turtle shell or the banana, that might be

3995
03:42:45,800 --> 03:42:49,840
Speaker 1: the banana that might slow down the process of somebody

3996
03:42:50,000 --> 03:42:53,160
Speaker 1: kind of getting dragged along on this course. Well, and

3997
03:42:53,360 --> 03:42:55,040
Speaker 1: I think I think there's like there's another thing that

3998
03:42:55,200 --> 03:42:57,320
Speaker 1: that would do too, which is that that vice time

3999
03:42:57,400 --> 03:43:00,240
Speaker 1: for a community response, because like you know, if we

4000
03:43:00,320 --> 03:43:02,640
Speaker 1: go back to sort of the ice stuff, it was like, well, yeah, Okay,

4001
03:43:02,720 --> 03:43:06,080
Speaker 1: like ice raids weren't stopped by the sanctuary laws. The

4002
03:43:06,160 --> 03:43:10,720
Speaker 1: thing that like did slow them down was massive community response. Yeah,

4003
03:43:10,959 --> 03:43:13,640
Speaker 1: I think I think that's very Uh it's certainly I've

4004
03:43:13,680 --> 03:43:16,240
Speaker 1: seen that happen here. Like in San Diego, it wasn't

4005
03:43:16,360 --> 03:43:20,400
Speaker 1: any of our performative Democrats laws. It was people getting

4006
03:43:20,400 --> 03:43:22,600
Speaker 1: out into the street. Now I was gonna say, there's

4007
03:43:22,640 --> 03:43:24,880
Speaker 1: It's also like in the UK in the last couple

4008
03:43:24,920 --> 03:43:27,920
Speaker 1: of months, there's been a lot of really really impressive

4009
03:43:28,640 --> 03:43:31,520
Speaker 1: community defense things and like cops showing up and like

4010
03:43:31,720 --> 03:43:35,120
Speaker 1: just entire communities and neighborhoods showing up the cops just

4011
03:43:35,320 --> 03:43:39,480
Speaker 1: like running away. And it's been it's been incredible to watch.

4012
03:43:39,640 --> 03:43:45,400
Speaker 1: And you two can also do this. But performative Democrats

4013
03:43:45,520 --> 03:43:49,160
Speaker 1: keep giving us good laws, like give us something, give

4014
03:43:49,360 --> 03:43:52,280
Speaker 1: anything like a nub of a thing that folks can

4015
03:43:52,520 --> 03:43:55,720
Speaker 1: hang their hats on. Um. I just don't want any

4016
03:43:55,920 --> 03:43:59,120
Speaker 1: politician out there to think that they're absolved from the

4017
03:43:59,320 --> 03:44:03,880
Speaker 1: job of protecting people. Yeah. Well, and I think I

4018
03:44:03,920 --> 03:44:05,320
Speaker 1: think again to think with these laws, right, it's like

4019
03:44:05,360 --> 03:44:08,400
Speaker 1: you you actually like with this e tradition stuff like

4020
03:44:09,080 --> 03:44:11,400
Speaker 1: I don't know how like I don't. I don't know

4021
03:44:11,520 --> 03:44:16,800
Speaker 1: how you would even like try to stop it unless

4022
03:44:16,879 --> 03:44:21,280
Speaker 1: like because like you don't know, like I mean, I

4023
03:44:21,480 --> 03:44:23,120
Speaker 1: like unless unless youre going to commit to try to

4024
03:44:23,120 --> 03:44:25,119
Speaker 1: stop trying to stop every person who gets arrested, which

4025
03:44:25,120 --> 03:44:27,360
Speaker 1: I think is like a noble goal, but like there's no,

4026
03:44:27,400 --> 03:44:29,360
Speaker 1: we don't have a capacity for that. Like if we

4027
03:44:29,440 --> 03:44:31,400
Speaker 1: lived in a world where we could do that, like

4028
03:44:32,959 --> 03:44:36,120
Speaker 1: the world will be much better and the state would

4029
03:44:36,160 --> 03:44:39,840
Speaker 1: be running for its life. But yeah, it's like like

4030
03:44:40,680 --> 03:44:44,680
Speaker 1: it seems like a thing that like it gives like

4031
03:44:44,800 --> 03:44:46,840
Speaker 1: it gives time for the law to act. More importantly,

4032
03:44:46,879 --> 03:44:48,440
Speaker 1: it's like it gives time for us to act. And

4033
03:44:49,080 --> 03:44:51,680
Speaker 1: that seems sure. Absolutely one of the most important thing

4034
03:44:51,720 --> 03:44:54,400
Speaker 1: is that it's buying time for people to organize and

4035
03:44:54,520 --> 03:44:56,240
Speaker 1: be able to be able to push back. It also

4036
03:44:56,280 --> 03:44:59,480
Speaker 1: creates a lot of higher barrier right like at the

4037
03:44:59,560 --> 03:45:01,360
Speaker 1: end of the day, like these systems are still made

4038
03:45:01,400 --> 03:45:04,120
Speaker 1: up people, and people are incredibly lazy and oftentimes like

4039
03:45:04,240 --> 03:45:06,560
Speaker 1: the police and other folks like don't want to have

4040
03:45:06,680 --> 03:45:09,240
Speaker 1: to deal with like engaging and going with like an

4041
03:45:09,280 --> 03:45:13,000
Speaker 1: extradition request because of the actual process for dealing with

4042
03:45:13,080 --> 03:45:16,279
Speaker 1: that is actually very onerous. Like, um, they have physically

4043
03:45:16,400 --> 03:45:18,200
Speaker 1: go to the state to pick them up, and they

4044
03:45:18,240 --> 03:45:19,840
Speaker 1: have to do all these things, right, and so what

4045
03:45:19,920 --> 03:45:22,440
Speaker 1: we're doing is like we're suggesting make it even harder,

4046
03:45:22,640 --> 03:45:25,000
Speaker 1: like make it absolutely hard for them to go through

4047
03:45:25,040 --> 03:45:26,760
Speaker 1: this and actually have to litigate in courts and like

4048
03:45:27,080 --> 03:45:29,520
Speaker 1: bring all this stuff, um and just basically like so

4049
03:45:29,680 --> 03:45:32,119
Speaker 1: down the process and raise that kind of buried entry

4050
03:45:32,480 --> 03:45:34,000
Speaker 1: on it. But you know, I thinks, like I think

4051
03:45:34,040 --> 03:45:37,560
Speaker 1: that's you know, very important to say, is like you know,

4052
03:45:38,000 --> 03:45:41,160
Speaker 1: the commune defense aspect cannot be able to stated because

4053
03:45:41,440 --> 03:45:42,880
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, like laws are just

4054
03:45:43,480 --> 03:45:45,720
Speaker 1: words on paper, right, Like it's it's the people that

4055
03:45:45,800 --> 03:45:49,160
Speaker 1: give them the effect and the power. So really what

4056
03:45:49,360 --> 03:45:51,760
Speaker 1: we need is like people say like this is morally wrong, right,

4057
03:45:51,840 --> 03:45:54,640
Speaker 1: Like we're not going to prosecute people for for exercising

4058
03:45:54,680 --> 03:45:58,000
Speaker 1: their bodily autonomy engaging in a fundamental human right. And

4059
03:45:58,160 --> 03:45:59,840
Speaker 1: so you know, when one of the things I have

4060
03:45:59,879 --> 03:46:03,600
Speaker 1: but heartened byas ums like um for John Brown gun

4061
03:46:03,720 --> 03:46:06,800
Speaker 1: Club in Dallas, like what they've been doing like protecting

4062
03:46:06,879 --> 03:46:10,360
Speaker 1: houseless folks like under the over passes, like they show

4063
03:46:10,480 --> 03:46:13,160
Speaker 1: up and like you know, in Texas they can open

4064
03:46:13,280 --> 03:46:15,200
Speaker 1: carry and like the police don't want to deal with them,

4065
03:46:15,280 --> 03:46:18,120
Speaker 1: so they're like buying a few more days so that

4066
03:46:18,280 --> 03:46:22,000
Speaker 1: the Dallas police doesn't um come in and sweep you know,

4067
03:46:22,200 --> 03:46:25,480
Speaker 1: the only belongings that these people have. And like that

4068
03:46:25,640 --> 03:46:27,720
Speaker 1: in and of itself brought so much attention that like

4069
03:46:27,920 --> 03:46:30,600
Speaker 1: brought so much scrutiny to Dallas p D's actions. So

4070
03:46:31,120 --> 03:46:33,640
Speaker 1: like it is that kind of community defense. And I

4071
03:46:33,680 --> 03:46:37,360
Speaker 1: think it also harks back to how these extradition issues

4072
03:46:37,400 --> 03:46:41,160
Speaker 1: like prior to like the Civil War worked out. It

4073
03:46:41,320 --> 03:46:44,880
Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily like these formal systems in Vermont that like

4074
03:46:45,360 --> 03:46:48,920
Speaker 1: stopped you know, escaped as like persons from being returned

4075
03:46:48,959 --> 03:46:52,200
Speaker 1: back to the South. It was like entire mods of

4076
03:46:52,280 --> 03:46:55,080
Speaker 1: people coming and like being like, you're not taking this

4077
03:46:55,160 --> 03:46:57,200
Speaker 1: person out of our town, and if you try to,

4078
03:46:57,320 --> 03:47:00,760
Speaker 1: you're not gonna leave here. Like I as a whole person,

4079
03:47:00,959 --> 03:47:02,920
Speaker 1: I guess it's probably the best way to put that,

4080
03:47:03,560 --> 03:47:06,560
Speaker 1: um shoot your local bounty hunters. Yeah, And so like

4081
03:47:07,120 --> 03:47:09,440
Speaker 1: essentially like that that's how it worked, right, And like

4082
03:47:09,720 --> 03:47:11,080
Speaker 1: you know, at the end of the day, I feel like,

4083
03:47:11,240 --> 03:47:12,920
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to du something kind of violence,

4084
03:47:13,000 --> 03:47:14,800
Speaker 1: but like like what really what it means is like

4085
03:47:14,840 --> 03:47:17,240
Speaker 1: when people show up and they physically put themselves in

4086
03:47:18,320 --> 03:47:20,840
Speaker 1: the way, it makes it so much harder for the

4087
03:47:21,040 --> 03:47:24,600
Speaker 1: like this kind of wheel of injustice to continue. And

4088
03:47:24,760 --> 03:47:26,760
Speaker 1: so that's really what it's going to take. And like

4089
03:47:26,800 --> 03:47:28,880
Speaker 1: you were mentioning with like the with the ice raids

4090
03:47:28,920 --> 03:47:31,840
Speaker 1: and everything like that, like it took people it's sometimes

4091
03:47:32,080 --> 03:47:34,560
Speaker 1: physically putting their bodies in front of ice fans to

4092
03:47:34,720 --> 03:47:38,440
Speaker 1: stop them from driving away and like chaining themselves to stuff,

4093
03:47:38,680 --> 03:47:40,880
Speaker 1: and like that's the kind of like non violent like

4094
03:47:40,959 --> 03:47:43,160
Speaker 1: direct action that I think is like going to be

4095
03:47:43,560 --> 03:47:47,160
Speaker 1: like needed. Yeah, And I think folks seem to have

4096
03:47:47,600 --> 03:47:50,560
Speaker 1: figured out that their district attorneys are elected and the

4097
03:47:50,680 --> 03:47:53,440
Speaker 1: person bringing the fugitive case, which I don't think I've

4098
03:47:53,480 --> 03:47:56,360
Speaker 1: been crystal clear about, is the district attorney. So then

4099
03:47:56,959 --> 03:47:59,199
Speaker 1: the police officer is going to go to the district

4100
03:47:59,240 --> 03:48:01,800
Speaker 1: attorneys of it, and that is the person who's going

4101
03:48:01,879 --> 03:48:04,760
Speaker 1: to bring the court case to help facilitate sending the

4102
03:48:04,879 --> 03:48:08,560
Speaker 1: person um. And I know New York recently has seen

4103
03:48:08,600 --> 03:48:11,680
Speaker 1: a number of successes of folks organizing around individual people

4104
03:48:11,720 --> 03:48:14,920
Speaker 1: would be saying you need to drop these charges. This

4105
03:48:15,080 --> 03:48:18,200
Speaker 1: conviction got overturned you should not be continuing with the case.

4106
03:48:18,360 --> 03:48:21,640
Speaker 1: This person is a for whatever reason, folks are organizing around, right,

4107
03:48:22,040 --> 03:48:29,960
Speaker 1: and so if we can create some delays whereby the

4108
03:48:30,040 --> 03:48:32,280
Speaker 1: person is free, right, because this is the key thing.

4109
03:48:32,400 --> 03:48:36,400
Speaker 1: We don't want people incarcerated. Incarceration in of itself is

4110
03:48:36,879 --> 03:48:40,920
Speaker 1: extreme violence. Right, So if the person is not incarcerated,

4111
03:48:40,959 --> 03:48:43,800
Speaker 1: then we can sort of delay this process and organize

4112
03:48:43,840 --> 03:48:48,680
Speaker 1: around pressuring whoever needs to be pressured, particularly the two

4113
03:48:49,000 --> 03:48:53,360
Speaker 1: Democratic politicians who say there against all of this stuff.

4114
03:48:53,400 --> 03:48:54,560
Speaker 1: But then at the end of the day, are they

4115
03:48:54,600 --> 03:48:57,440
Speaker 1: going to ignore the homicide extradition warrant? Like that's where

4116
03:48:57,480 --> 03:48:58,760
Speaker 1: the rubber meets the road. Are you going to do

4117
03:48:58,800 --> 03:49:01,879
Speaker 1: it or not? Right? And and and I think that's

4118
03:49:01,879 --> 03:49:04,680
Speaker 1: a much harder question when it comes down to that

4119
03:49:04,960 --> 03:49:07,800
Speaker 1: for them, because they're like, well, it's a homicide warrant, right,

4120
03:49:07,960 --> 03:49:11,240
Speaker 1: and and so that's where they need the pressure because um,

4121
03:49:11,440 --> 03:49:15,360
Speaker 1: all the wild ideas go out the door in that moment. Yeah,

4122
03:49:15,400 --> 03:49:17,040
Speaker 1: I think, like, I think that's the thing with with

4123
03:49:17,120 --> 03:49:19,960
Speaker 1: these people. It's like ideologically like they don't care enough

4124
03:49:20,000 --> 03:49:21,640
Speaker 1: to deal with do it. But if you but you

4125
03:49:21,760 --> 03:49:25,720
Speaker 1: can force them to care about having a job, Yeah, well,

4126
03:49:25,800 --> 03:49:28,240
Speaker 1: it's not not even just so much that, like there

4127
03:49:28,280 --> 03:49:31,640
Speaker 1: there are long established ways of putting pressure on people

4128
03:49:31,720 --> 03:49:34,000
Speaker 1: and systems that can force them to do things they

4129
03:49:34,000 --> 03:49:37,720
Speaker 1: don't want to do, and yeah, go do that because

4130
03:49:38,680 --> 03:49:40,960
Speaker 1: we're going to need it. Frankly, I think part of

4131
03:49:41,040 --> 03:49:45,360
Speaker 1: this is also destigmatizing work right, um, Because when we

4132
03:49:45,920 --> 03:49:51,320
Speaker 1: have kind of these big divergent ideas, when we find

4133
03:49:51,360 --> 03:49:54,680
Speaker 1: ourselves at the split of like good versus evil, right,

4134
03:49:54,760 --> 03:50:00,360
Speaker 1: like slavery versus not slavery, bodily autonomy versus not bodily autonomy, um,

4135
03:50:01,680 --> 03:50:05,360
Speaker 1: sometimes the good guys compromise to the point that we

4136
03:50:05,480 --> 03:50:08,040
Speaker 1: get ourselves to this position later on down the line,

4137
03:50:08,480 --> 03:50:12,760
Speaker 1: and what we can do is kind of galvanized community

4138
03:50:12,800 --> 03:50:16,360
Speaker 1: response and also civic engagement by forcing folks to take

4139
03:50:16,400 --> 03:50:18,080
Speaker 1: a look at the laws that we so rely on

4140
03:50:18,600 --> 03:50:21,200
Speaker 1: and questioning why does this thing exist this way? Why

4141
03:50:21,360 --> 03:50:24,320
Speaker 1: is this process moving that way? Someone that didn't know that.

4142
03:50:24,440 --> 03:50:28,360
Speaker 1: Folks facing an extradition warrant like often have to make

4143
03:50:28,480 --> 03:50:31,040
Speaker 1: the decision at an arrayment. Am I going to waive

4144
03:50:31,200 --> 03:50:34,000
Speaker 1: my right to extradition and wait for them to couldn't

4145
03:50:34,040 --> 03:50:36,800
Speaker 1: get me because they said that takes thirty days for

4146
03:50:36,880 --> 03:50:38,880
Speaker 1: them to come and get you. But if you don't wait,

4147
03:50:38,920 --> 03:50:40,680
Speaker 1: if it's going to take ninety days to them to

4148
03:50:40,760 --> 03:50:44,000
Speaker 1: come and get you, so you'll be sitting there longer,

4149
03:50:44,440 --> 03:50:46,400
Speaker 1: and that's a decision that you need to make. Kind

4150
03:50:46,440 --> 03:50:51,000
Speaker 1: of like in that moment, if we're talking about extradition

4151
03:50:51,280 --> 03:50:54,800
Speaker 1: in normal conversation, we're moving forward to a place where

4152
03:50:54,840 --> 03:50:58,920
Speaker 1: we're destigmatizing and frankly demystifying what the criminal legal system

4153
03:50:59,000 --> 03:51:01,320
Speaker 1: really looks like. In an and bolts. It might end

4154
03:51:01,440 --> 03:51:04,840
Speaker 1: up with better conversations and better output for folks in

4155
03:51:04,880 --> 03:51:06,720
Speaker 1: the future. It might end up with you being able

4156
03:51:06,760 --> 03:51:10,440
Speaker 1: to talk about jury nullification and having like and not

4157
03:51:10,640 --> 03:51:13,440
Speaker 1: having it be kind of like a shaking the table conversation,

4158
03:51:13,800 --> 03:51:17,000
Speaker 1: because frankly, these are all like civics. Civics, it's rights,

4159
03:51:17,120 --> 03:51:20,920
Speaker 1: it's things that are written in the constitution that governs us,

4160
03:51:21,320 --> 03:51:23,000
Speaker 1: where the cops don't need to know the law, but

4161
03:51:23,080 --> 03:51:27,120
Speaker 1: we're all expected to write. So it takes all kinds,

4162
03:51:27,200 --> 03:51:30,200
Speaker 1: it takes all responses for us to just get to

4163
03:51:30,320 --> 03:51:33,520
Speaker 1: the place that's better than the stop gap that Row

4164
03:51:33,680 --> 03:51:36,040
Speaker 1: had been giving us for the last forties some odd years.

4165
03:51:36,200 --> 03:51:38,000
Speaker 1: And I'll say, like the one thing that does terrify

4166
03:51:38,080 --> 03:51:39,960
Speaker 1: me in this end is like or I guess like

4167
03:51:40,080 --> 03:51:42,520
Speaker 1: really concerns me is like what Bonda Santist just did

4168
03:51:42,600 --> 03:51:44,600
Speaker 1: in Florida in Hillsboro County. Like I grew up in

4169
03:51:44,680 --> 03:51:47,200
Speaker 1: Hillsboro County, so I'm from there. So it's like like

4170
03:51:47,520 --> 03:51:52,800
Speaker 1: the twice elected UH state attorney there was just suspended

4171
03:51:52,960 --> 03:51:57,800
Speaker 1: because he said he would refuse to um prosecute crimes

4172
03:51:57,840 --> 03:52:01,000
Speaker 1: related to abortion and gender for carry, like also refused

4173
03:52:01,000 --> 03:52:03,280
Speaker 1: to prosecute trans people using the bathroom right, So like

4174
03:52:03,760 --> 03:52:07,760
Speaker 1: these kinds of things and the santis just like sacked him. Right,

4175
03:52:07,800 --> 03:52:11,360
Speaker 1: an elected person that reflects the values of that county,

4176
03:52:11,880 --> 03:52:13,760
Speaker 1: and so like that that's the other thing to be

4177
03:52:13,840 --> 03:52:15,920
Speaker 1: aware of. It's you know, like even when you do

4178
03:52:16,080 --> 03:52:18,600
Speaker 1: exercise that power and like say like this is our

4179
03:52:19,040 --> 03:52:21,320
Speaker 1: as a community, these are our values on like who

4180
03:52:21,400 --> 03:52:24,880
Speaker 1: we should be prioritizing um in the criminal justice system.

4181
03:52:26,120 --> 03:52:28,600
Speaker 1: There are still people out there that will will try

4182
03:52:28,680 --> 03:52:31,840
Speaker 1: to circumvent that in a very authoritarian and autocratic way,

4183
03:52:31,920 --> 03:52:34,240
Speaker 1: and so um, you know, I think it's not just

4184
03:52:34,320 --> 03:52:36,680
Speaker 1: who you're voting for your local das, who are you

4185
03:52:36,720 --> 03:52:38,720
Speaker 1: running for? A governor? Who are you running for? Like,

4186
03:52:38,920 --> 03:52:41,600
Speaker 1: you know, these people that have broader powers over this.

4187
03:52:43,120 --> 03:52:45,960
Speaker 1: I wanted to briefly talk about this because I know

4188
03:52:46,160 --> 03:52:49,280
Speaker 1: like it was proposed at least by my representative the

4189
03:52:50,160 --> 03:52:52,280
Speaker 1: and I think it's being bandied about as a solution,

4190
03:52:52,880 --> 03:52:55,640
Speaker 1: and uh, it doesn't seem like it is. But this

4191
03:52:55,880 --> 03:53:00,760
Speaker 1: My Body, My Data Act, which I was trying to

4192
03:53:00,840 --> 03:53:03,280
Speaker 1: read through it a little earlier. It seems like it

4193
03:53:03,320 --> 03:53:07,240
Speaker 1: allows people to like sue tech companies for selling their

4194
03:53:07,360 --> 03:53:09,960
Speaker 1: data that leads to their prosecution. I don't know if

4195
03:53:09,960 --> 03:53:12,680
Speaker 1: you are familiar with it, but maybe we could just

4196
03:53:12,760 --> 03:53:16,560
Speaker 1: discuss a little bit what No, okay, all right, I

4197
03:53:16,600 --> 03:53:19,280
Speaker 1: mean so I'm not familiar, but based on what you

4198
03:53:19,400 --> 03:53:22,400
Speaker 1: just said, right, I think there's this and I really

4199
03:53:22,440 --> 03:53:24,320
Speaker 1: think it goes back to what EVCO is saying about

4200
03:53:24,360 --> 03:53:29,360
Speaker 1: folks just like not not fully understanding precisely how the

4201
03:53:29,440 --> 03:53:35,840
Speaker 1: criminal legal system just like runs over people. Okay, great,

4202
03:53:35,960 --> 03:53:38,240
Speaker 1: so I can sue the tech company after the police

4203
03:53:38,280 --> 03:53:40,920
Speaker 1: have put me in a cage and and convicted me

4204
03:53:41,080 --> 03:53:44,880
Speaker 1: based on the day like like, okay, I mean great,

4205
03:53:44,920 --> 03:53:46,800
Speaker 1: maybe I'll have a lot of money on my commissary,

4206
03:53:46,960 --> 03:53:51,520
Speaker 1: my family will have enough um like funds to come

4207
03:53:51,600 --> 03:53:53,920
Speaker 1: drive and visit me at whatever state prison they've got

4208
03:53:54,040 --> 03:53:57,440
Speaker 1: me locked up in, right, Like, like, this is where

4209
03:53:58,040 --> 03:54:00,280
Speaker 1: we have to step back and think, are is this

4210
03:54:01,440 --> 03:54:05,880
Speaker 1: is this thing actually preventing the harm? Because I think

4211
03:54:05,920 --> 03:54:08,000
Speaker 1: a lot of times folks are just like, we can

4212
03:54:08,040 --> 03:54:09,880
Speaker 1: do them, or we could get back at them. And

4213
03:54:10,560 --> 03:54:13,080
Speaker 1: I also want folks to remember that just making something

4214
03:54:13,160 --> 03:54:18,000
Speaker 1: illegal does not prevent harm. Right, and and a whole

4215
03:54:18,040 --> 03:54:20,960
Speaker 1: another conversation about criminalization as a solution to anything, which

4216
03:54:21,000 --> 03:54:24,520
Speaker 1: I think it is not, um, but but just on

4217
03:54:24,720 --> 03:54:26,760
Speaker 1: on the face of what you've said to me, that

4218
03:54:26,880 --> 03:54:29,560
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like a solution that if I it wouldn't

4219
03:54:29,600 --> 03:54:32,240
Speaker 1: feel adequate to me if if I were in that

4220
03:54:33,880 --> 03:54:37,760
Speaker 1: And also thinking about how cases become cases from what

4221
03:54:37,920 --> 03:54:41,000
Speaker 1: we know, it's not again, it's not coming from big

4222
03:54:41,080 --> 03:54:44,720
Speaker 1: data down right for the most part. It certainly can happen,

4223
03:54:45,280 --> 03:54:50,760
Speaker 1: but really what's happening is violations of people's Fourth Amendment rights.

4224
03:54:51,200 --> 03:54:53,960
Speaker 1: Cops being able to access things on people's actual devices,

4225
03:54:54,320 --> 03:54:59,200
Speaker 1: oftentimes without warrants, oftentimes by not fully explaining that people

4226
03:54:59,280 --> 03:55:02,360
Speaker 1: have the right to they know. Um And I'm sure

4227
03:55:02,440 --> 03:55:05,440
Speaker 1: Michelle has had clients that were like, oh, they just

4228
03:55:05,600 --> 03:55:08,000
Speaker 1: took my phone. How many times have we heard that? Right?

4229
03:55:08,240 --> 03:55:10,440
Speaker 1: They just took my phone and started going through it.

4230
03:55:10,840 --> 03:55:12,800
Speaker 1: A police officer that does that is not going to

4231
03:55:12,880 --> 03:55:14,760
Speaker 1: write in their report. And I just took his phone

4232
03:55:14,800 --> 03:55:18,560
Speaker 1: without any permission. It's always permission was granted. It was

4233
03:55:18,720 --> 03:55:21,840
Speaker 1: in plane view. I saw it from the street. I

4234
03:55:21,920 --> 03:55:25,040
Speaker 1: smelled it as he was walking by. Like, if the

4235
03:55:25,200 --> 03:55:30,120
Speaker 1: laws that are being created are not actually responsive to

4236
03:55:30,200 --> 03:55:32,880
Speaker 1: the harm that folks are experiencing in a way that

4237
03:55:33,040 --> 03:55:35,560
Speaker 1: actually prevents it, then we need to kind of push

4238
03:55:35,600 --> 03:55:39,280
Speaker 1: back at our legislators and say, Okay, this is great,

4239
03:55:40,320 --> 03:55:42,400
Speaker 1: but is it responding to the thing that you're saying

4240
03:55:42,440 --> 03:55:44,920
Speaker 1: it's responding to? Because yeah, shout out to people being

4241
03:55:45,000 --> 03:55:47,040
Speaker 1: able to sue big tech for selling our data without

4242
03:55:47,080 --> 03:55:51,360
Speaker 1: our permission. Bet, But is that gonna prevent prosecutors from

4243
03:55:51,560 --> 03:55:57,520
Speaker 1: going after folks that have abortions? Probably not, Because even

4244
03:55:57,600 --> 03:56:00,200
Speaker 1: in the Nebraska case that Alejandra mentioned at the top

4245
03:56:00,240 --> 03:56:03,200
Speaker 1: of the hour, that was a warrant that was signed

4246
03:56:03,240 --> 03:56:05,480
Speaker 1: by judge, it was a search warrant that was provided

4247
03:56:05,560 --> 03:56:08,400
Speaker 1: to Facebook that didn't say the words abortion on it,

4248
03:56:08,520 --> 03:56:10,760
Speaker 1: that didn't say that we're going after someone for abortion.

4249
03:56:11,240 --> 03:56:13,400
Speaker 1: Had I think the words like abuse of a corpse

4250
03:56:13,520 --> 03:56:16,240
Speaker 1: or something of that nature on there, and for them

4251
03:56:16,320 --> 03:56:20,160
Speaker 1: it was wrote what they normally do, bureaucracy, search warrants,

4252
03:56:20,200 --> 03:56:23,320
Speaker 1: stamp here's the data that you're looking for. A law

4253
03:56:23,400 --> 03:56:25,560
Speaker 1: that prevents folks from selling your data doesn't prevent that

4254
03:56:25,760 --> 03:56:29,160
Speaker 1: from happening. Something I think a lot about those. One

4255
03:56:29,160 --> 03:56:32,400
Speaker 1: of my sort of like former political experiences was back

4256
03:56:32,480 --> 03:56:34,280
Speaker 1: in like I think, I think it's something which isn't

4257
03:56:34,280 --> 03:56:38,560
Speaker 1: twelve doesn't thirteen um. Right after the revolution in Bahrain.

4258
03:56:39,080 --> 03:56:41,920
Speaker 1: So okay, so the revolution in Bahrain, Saudi tanks roll in,

4259
03:56:42,040 --> 03:56:44,360
Speaker 1: they crush it, they kill a bunch of people, and

4260
03:56:44,720 --> 03:56:46,640
Speaker 1: the government starts doing this crackdown. The way the government

4261
03:56:46,680 --> 03:56:49,640
Speaker 1: does to crackdown is they go they go to Facebook

4262
03:56:49,640 --> 03:56:52,240
Speaker 1: and they takes off those on people's public accounts, and

4263
03:56:52,240 --> 03:56:53,560
Speaker 1: then they go to Facebook and they asked them for

4264
03:56:53,600 --> 03:56:57,160
Speaker 1: information and Facebook turns go over, and you know, the

4265
03:56:57,200 --> 03:56:59,360
Speaker 1: government just goes to and finds everyone who's at a

4266
03:56:59,400 --> 03:57:02,800
Speaker 1: protest and starts to ressing them. And you know, Facebook

4267
03:57:02,880 --> 03:57:06,560
Speaker 1: is just like m HM and like that, if if

4268
03:57:06,600 --> 03:57:09,840
Speaker 1: if if if if if they if they will comply

4269
03:57:10,160 --> 03:57:13,400
Speaker 1: with a literal monarchy who has had a second monarchy

4270
03:57:13,640 --> 03:57:15,920
Speaker 1: send an army across the border in order to crush

4271
03:57:15,920 --> 03:57:18,480
Speaker 1: a bunch of protests. Like they're going to comply with

4272
03:57:18,560 --> 03:57:20,160
Speaker 1: the US and they're gonna keep doing this stuff to you.

4273
03:57:21,040 --> 03:57:26,240
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I was like, I like, even if

4274
03:57:26,280 --> 03:57:28,400
Speaker 1: you can sue them, they're still going to cooperate with

4275
03:57:28,480 --> 03:57:31,320
Speaker 1: the U. S. Government because yeah, they have a greater

4276
03:57:31,440 --> 03:57:34,640
Speaker 1: financial interest in doing big tech doesn't give a funk

4277
03:57:34,680 --> 03:57:37,800
Speaker 1: about you. Yeah, I think folks, again, as he was saying,

4278
03:57:37,840 --> 03:57:41,040
Speaker 1: like ea saying, it was just so like this is wrope.

4279
03:57:41,240 --> 03:57:42,920
Speaker 1: This is what they do every day. This is not

4280
03:57:43,560 --> 03:57:45,680
Speaker 1: that serious or that deep to them. And I think

4281
03:57:45,760 --> 03:57:50,040
Speaker 1: we need to start asking bigger questions about why do

4282
03:57:50,120 --> 03:57:52,760
Speaker 1: we have a system we're so easy for the government

4283
03:57:52,840 --> 03:57:56,880
Speaker 1: to just like come in and um, have a subpoena signed,

4284
03:57:57,000 --> 03:57:59,320
Speaker 1: Like the subpoenas are easy to get, like we have

4285
03:57:59,560 --> 03:58:02,480
Speaker 1: these mechanisms are all in place. And that's what I

4286
03:58:02,560 --> 03:58:06,520
Speaker 1: was sort of saying earlier is that I think folks

4287
03:58:06,560 --> 03:58:08,720
Speaker 1: who haven't been paying attention to this, who are all

4288
03:58:08,720 --> 03:58:11,160
Speaker 1: of a sudden like, wow, how is this happening? Oh

4289
03:58:11,240 --> 03:58:14,080
Speaker 1: my goodness, Well, these are the machines of massim corceration

4290
03:58:14,160 --> 03:58:17,360
Speaker 1: that we have spent a few decades really building up,

4291
03:58:17,720 --> 03:58:20,720
Speaker 1: and so now when the person the people you're sympathetic

4292
03:58:20,840 --> 03:58:24,720
Speaker 1: with start to get criminalized all of a sudden, we're

4293
03:58:24,880 --> 03:58:28,800
Speaker 1: very shocked. And listen, however, you got here, great welcome.

4294
03:58:28,880 --> 03:58:32,000
Speaker 1: I'm glad folks are here and saying like, wow, this

4295
03:58:32,200 --> 03:58:34,840
Speaker 1: is a problem. And I want folks to think the

4296
03:58:35,280 --> 03:58:39,240
Speaker 1: If the abortion context and the self managed abortion is

4297
03:58:39,360 --> 03:58:43,560
Speaker 1: your entry point, I hope it is not the end point.

4298
03:58:43,640 --> 03:58:47,880
Speaker 1: I hope that you are thinking bigger about how did

4299
03:58:47,960 --> 03:58:50,560
Speaker 1: all these systems get here? Who do they serve? And

4300
03:58:50,920 --> 03:58:54,720
Speaker 1: and and I hope how do we dismantle them? Because

4301
03:58:54,720 --> 03:58:58,280
Speaker 1: it's it's not just this select few people group of

4302
03:58:58,360 --> 03:58:59,960
Speaker 1: people that we should care about, I think is all

4303
03:59:00,000 --> 03:59:01,760
Speaker 1: all the people who are who are exposed to this

4304
03:59:01,920 --> 03:59:07,560
Speaker 1: on the daily. Um. So yeah, that's my soapbox. I

4305
03:59:07,600 --> 03:59:11,640
Speaker 1: always wonder how many judges, um have refused to sign

4306
03:59:11,720 --> 03:59:14,480
Speaker 1: a search warrant. That's like a big wonder of mine.

4307
03:59:14,680 --> 03:59:18,720
Speaker 1: I don't judges don't hang out with me, obviously for

4308
03:59:19,040 --> 03:59:21,840
Speaker 1: a lot of obvious reasons. But if I were to

4309
03:59:22,400 --> 03:59:24,920
Speaker 1: like just whisper in my ear real quick, how many

4310
03:59:24,960 --> 03:59:27,800
Speaker 1: times have you ever said no to a police officer

4311
03:59:27,920 --> 03:59:30,160
Speaker 1: that comes to ask to swear a warrant in front

4312
03:59:30,160 --> 03:59:32,240
Speaker 1: of you. How many times have you found there is

4313
03:59:32,280 --> 03:59:37,360
Speaker 1: no probable cause? Dude? Like to to be fair, there

4314
03:59:37,480 --> 03:59:39,560
Speaker 1: there there are. There have to there have to be

4315
03:59:39,600 --> 03:59:41,240
Speaker 1: a certain number of times where they're trying to go

4316
03:59:41,280 --> 03:59:49,160
Speaker 1: after another. Judge es I don't know, it's good to

4317
03:59:49,240 --> 03:59:53,080
Speaker 1: have happened once like that. There has to have been

4318
03:59:53,160 --> 03:59:56,120
Speaker 1: one time where it was like this judge piste me off,

4319
03:59:56,160 --> 03:59:58,320
Speaker 1: I'm going to go raid his car or something. Never

4320
03:59:58,760 --> 04:00:02,560
Speaker 1: Never that I can like that, I can think about

4321
04:00:02,680 --> 04:00:05,040
Speaker 1: never happening. But I just wonder how many times has

4322
04:00:05,120 --> 04:00:07,720
Speaker 1: somebody said we are going to go search for drugs

4323
04:00:07,760 --> 04:00:10,520
Speaker 1: and X y Z house in this specific neighborhood that

4324
04:00:11,120 --> 04:00:14,040
Speaker 1: that a judges says, you don't have enough here. Try again.

4325
04:00:14,760 --> 04:00:19,280
Speaker 1: It doesn't happen. Yeah, at least told in federal court

4326
04:00:19,360 --> 04:00:22,120
Speaker 1: maybe maybe you know they turned down one out of

4327
04:00:22,840 --> 04:00:28,080
Speaker 1: but in state court. My experience is it's it's it's again,

4328
04:00:28,120 --> 04:00:30,240
Speaker 1: it's routine. It's just how things go. I mean, one

4329
04:00:30,280 --> 04:00:31,800
Speaker 1: of the one of the things that I came across

4330
04:00:31,880 --> 04:00:33,480
Speaker 1: when I was you know, I was not dealing with

4331
04:00:33,560 --> 04:00:36,560
Speaker 1: particularly judges issuing warrants. But one of the things I

4332
04:00:37,120 --> 04:00:39,000
Speaker 1: did when when I was looking into the payment app

4333
04:00:39,080 --> 04:00:42,800
Speaker 1: issue this past spring, um is, you know, I talked

4334
04:00:42,880 --> 04:00:45,000
Speaker 1: to a former prosecutor and was like, you know, what

4335
04:00:45,160 --> 04:00:48,800
Speaker 1: is it like to get documents from or or data

4336
04:00:48,960 --> 04:00:52,560
Speaker 1: from like Facebook and you know, Instagram or Meta whatnot,

4337
04:00:52,760 --> 04:00:55,520
Speaker 1: or like Twitter or any of these other places. And

4338
04:00:55,600 --> 04:00:58,840
Speaker 1: they were just like, Oh, we just send a request,

4339
04:00:58,960 --> 04:01:01,720
Speaker 1: like we don't even like basically an administrative subpoena, and

4340
04:01:01,760 --> 04:01:05,200
Speaker 1: they just like hand over everything like, um, it's basically

4341
04:01:05,240 --> 04:01:08,320
Speaker 1: they're just like so routine oftentimes, especially if it's coming

4342
04:01:08,440 --> 04:01:12,480
Speaker 1: from a district attorney's office or law enforcement. But like

4343
04:01:12,600 --> 04:01:16,640
Speaker 1: often times these companies just like casually handover stuff all

4344
04:01:16,680 --> 04:01:20,240
Speaker 1: the time, especially when it's like dealing with low level

4345
04:01:20,360 --> 04:01:23,920
Speaker 1: drug stuff um or any kind of like issues like that.

4346
04:01:24,600 --> 04:01:26,720
Speaker 1: You know, they like to say, oh, we're we're big

4347
04:01:26,840 --> 04:01:29,720
Speaker 1: on on civil rights and stuff like that and making

4348
04:01:29,720 --> 04:01:33,120
Speaker 1: sure your data is protective. In reality, like there's so

4349
04:01:33,240 --> 04:01:35,600
Speaker 1: many requests around this stuff, and it's just you know,

4350
04:01:35,960 --> 04:01:37,880
Speaker 1: the only time they ever maybe make a standards when

4351
04:01:37,920 --> 04:01:40,800
Speaker 1: a case is higher profile and it may damage their brands, right,

4352
04:01:40,880 --> 04:01:42,720
Speaker 1: and that's that's the only time they actually ever care.

4353
04:01:43,840 --> 04:01:46,000
Speaker 1: On the defense attorney side, it's hard as heck to

4354
04:01:46,040 --> 04:01:49,640
Speaker 1: get your client's records for things like so hard, so

4355
04:01:49,960 --> 04:01:52,760
Speaker 1: so hard. You're looking for information on a Facebook for

4356
04:01:52,840 --> 04:01:55,400
Speaker 1: somebody that's incarcerated that might get them out of jail,

4357
04:01:55,760 --> 04:01:58,080
Speaker 1: and they don't remember their password, you don't know how

4358
04:01:58,120 --> 04:02:00,360
Speaker 1: to get into their stuff, and it need to be

4359
04:02:00,560 --> 04:02:03,280
Speaker 1: not a screenshot because that you might not be able

4360
04:02:03,320 --> 04:02:05,840
Speaker 1: to get that authenticated and admissible in court. And it

4361
04:02:06,000 --> 04:02:08,920
Speaker 1: is so hard when you're working on the other side

4362
04:02:09,040 --> 04:02:12,080
Speaker 1: and not in law enforcement to get data and information.

4363
04:02:12,520 --> 04:02:14,200
Speaker 1: But on the flip side when it comes to like

4364
04:02:14,640 --> 04:02:18,600
Speaker 1: people's medical information, which comes into play in a lot

4365
04:02:18,640 --> 04:02:21,640
Speaker 1: of these cases because we're at this intersection of bodily

4366
04:02:21,680 --> 04:02:25,880
Speaker 1: autonomy and health in the criminal legal system. We've certainly

4367
04:02:26,000 --> 04:02:28,920
Speaker 1: seen in cases where folks are having a medical emergency

4368
04:02:29,320 --> 04:02:31,320
Speaker 1: and cops are able to just go and do a

4369
04:02:31,400 --> 04:02:33,960
Speaker 1: bedside interview with somebody that's coming out of surgery still

4370
04:02:34,040 --> 04:02:36,360
Speaker 1: drugged up. Right, They're able to just go up to

4371
04:02:36,440 --> 04:02:38,240
Speaker 1: a charge nurse something like, so, how's he doing, and

4372
04:02:38,280 --> 04:02:45,200
Speaker 1: they're getting information that's wild because I have had request

4373
04:02:45,720 --> 04:02:50,120
Speaker 1: for my clients medical records with signed HIPPA authorizations returned

4374
04:02:50,240 --> 04:02:52,440
Speaker 1: because I signed with blue ink instead of black ink.

4375
04:02:52,800 --> 04:02:56,440
Speaker 1: It's not wrote. It's not wrote when it's not coming

4376
04:02:56,520 --> 04:02:59,200
Speaker 1: from law enforcements sometimes, and that's kind of the wild thing.

4377
04:02:59,280 --> 04:03:03,680
Speaker 1: There's this assumption that folks and law enforcement have a

4378
04:03:03,880 --> 04:03:07,600
Speaker 1: right to all information at all times forever, and that's

4379
04:03:07,640 --> 04:03:09,840
Speaker 1: where things get rubber stamped, and that's the stuff that

4380
04:03:10,000 --> 04:03:12,520
Speaker 1: we're not really looking at that have large impact on

4381
04:03:13,240 --> 04:03:17,560
Speaker 1: how people access their rights. I was just as we

4382
04:03:17,640 --> 04:03:20,000
Speaker 1: were talking about like Facebook doing everything about you and

4383
04:03:20,840 --> 04:03:24,840
Speaker 1: loving the cops, I was like reminded of Fouko's Panopticon

4384
04:03:25,640 --> 04:03:27,800
Speaker 1: and like this idea that you'll start to internal life

4385
04:03:27,840 --> 04:03:31,400
Speaker 1: discipline because you never know when you're being watched, right, um,

4386
04:03:31,840 --> 04:03:35,800
Speaker 1: And so I wondered, like obviously, like when talks about it,

4387
04:03:35,840 --> 04:03:37,920
Speaker 1: the idea is that you will do you act like

4388
04:03:38,040 --> 04:03:40,520
Speaker 1: you think the state is watching, because the state could

4389
04:03:40,560 --> 04:03:42,960
Speaker 1: always be watching. Therefore you have to act like it

4390
04:03:43,120 --> 04:03:46,760
Speaker 1: is watching. Uh, And like it's if we're not there yet,

4391
04:03:47,040 --> 04:03:49,520
Speaker 1: right like that, Tally there, have you not heard the

4392
04:03:49,840 --> 04:03:53,640
Speaker 1: FBI and your phone joke? The FBI on my computer?

4393
04:03:54,000 --> 04:03:56,440
Speaker 1: Like I hope he likes my makeup today we're totally there,

4394
04:03:56,520 --> 04:03:59,040
Speaker 1: Like I think there's an assumption that we're all being watched.

4395
04:04:00,080 --> 04:04:04,240
Speaker 1: Don't know. Even sometimes I wish our clients I thought

4396
04:04:04,240 --> 04:04:06,440
Speaker 1: they were being watched more because sometimes people put too

4397
04:04:06,520 --> 04:04:10,520
Speaker 1: much on Facebook do Well, yeah, you're right, let me

4398
04:04:10,600 --> 04:04:14,640
Speaker 1: not keep myself from that because I am very much included. Yeah,

4399
04:04:15,160 --> 04:04:17,920
Speaker 1: but yeah, so like that's what I wanted to ask, right,

4400
04:04:17,960 --> 04:04:22,480
Speaker 1: Like how do we not you know, we don't want

4401
04:04:22,600 --> 04:04:26,480
Speaker 1: people to listen to some do crimes, but like how

4402
04:04:26,600 --> 04:04:30,600
Speaker 1: should people act in their interactions like in in a

4403
04:04:30,720 --> 04:04:35,440
Speaker 1: way that is like I guess I don't know that

4404
04:04:35,520 --> 04:04:38,200
Speaker 1: it makes them less vulnerable to like these very obvious

4405
04:04:38,360 --> 04:04:42,480
Speaker 1: upsets fails. I guess, Um, I have some resources, so

4406
04:04:43,720 --> 04:04:46,120
Speaker 1: if one how we have this thing called the repro

4407
04:04:46,280 --> 04:04:49,800
Speaker 1: Legal Helpline. It's repro legal helpline dot org. It's also

4408
04:04:49,840 --> 04:04:51,840
Speaker 1: a warm line with the phone number that people can

4409
04:04:51,920 --> 04:04:54,960
Speaker 1: call and ask questions like what are my rights when

4410
04:04:55,000 --> 04:04:57,920
Speaker 1: it comes to my abortion my self managed abortion? And

4411
04:04:58,040 --> 04:05:00,800
Speaker 1: on that website we have did atal tips about how

4412
04:05:00,800 --> 04:05:04,040
Speaker 1: do you protect yourself and sanitize your digital space just

4413
04:05:04,200 --> 04:05:07,480
Speaker 1: for safety as a whole, not to hide information from everyone,

4414
04:05:07,600 --> 04:05:11,160
Speaker 1: but how do you move and prevent and minimize your risks.

4415
04:05:11,280 --> 04:05:14,000
Speaker 1: What does harm reduction look like to you? We also

4416
04:05:14,080 --> 04:05:17,400
Speaker 1: have the repro Legal Defense Fund, and that exists for

4417
04:05:17,480 --> 04:05:20,160
Speaker 1: folks when they are actually being criminalized to pay for

4418
04:05:20,280 --> 04:05:23,520
Speaker 1: things like bail, help out with attorneys fees, help out

4419
04:05:23,560 --> 04:05:26,440
Speaker 1: with expert fees. So there are folks that are working

4420
04:05:26,880 --> 04:05:30,080
Speaker 1: on this stuff that exists as resources, and there are

4421
04:05:30,280 --> 04:05:33,920
Speaker 1: resources out there. But I would tell folks to really

4422
04:05:34,000 --> 04:05:36,560
Speaker 1: think about who are you telling your business to? UM?

4423
04:05:36,720 --> 04:05:39,800
Speaker 1: When you share information, is that information that's necessary for

4424
04:05:39,920 --> 04:05:43,680
Speaker 1: treatment that you're being asked? UM? Just because we're used

4425
04:05:43,720 --> 04:05:46,240
Speaker 1: to being in spaces where there is a power and

4426
04:05:46,360 --> 04:05:49,640
Speaker 1: balance about sharing all of the information that's asked of us,

4427
04:05:49,960 --> 04:05:52,280
Speaker 1: and I think when it comes to spaces and times

4428
04:05:52,320 --> 04:05:56,720
Speaker 1: where we're more vulnerable UM to state actors causing harm

4429
04:05:56,800 --> 04:05:59,960
Speaker 1: to us, being mindful about what questions are you being asked?

4430
04:06:00,000 --> 04:06:02,400
Speaker 1: And it's that question necessary for you to be able

4431
04:06:02,440 --> 04:06:05,480
Speaker 1: to receive care or services X Y Z UM. And

4432
04:06:05,560 --> 04:06:09,000
Speaker 1: it sucks to have to put work on the back

4433
04:06:09,080 --> 04:06:11,520
Speaker 1: of folks that are already being oppressed by systems. It's

4434
04:06:11,560 --> 04:06:15,080
Speaker 1: absolute trash. And I fully recognize that's it's it's messed up,

4435
04:06:15,480 --> 04:06:18,920
Speaker 1: But UM, when we're thinking when we're thinking about what

4436
04:06:19,000 --> 04:06:21,440
Speaker 1: does harm reduction look like. I think that's one of

4437
04:06:21,520 --> 04:06:23,680
Speaker 1: those things that we have to keep in mind. UM.

4438
04:06:23,800 --> 04:06:27,800
Speaker 1: And harm reduction also looks like folks knowing generally what

4439
04:06:27,920 --> 04:06:31,320
Speaker 1: the law is and being able to advocate for themselves

4440
04:06:31,400 --> 04:06:34,360
Speaker 1: in those spaces. Yeah. I'll just add from my side

4441
04:06:34,440 --> 04:06:36,360
Speaker 1: from like kind of just you know, from from a

4442
04:06:36,400 --> 04:06:40,200
Speaker 1: cyber perspective, it's, you know, just in general ways, like

4443
04:06:40,240 --> 04:06:42,480
Speaker 1: there's nothing that's gonna be bullet proof or a silver

4444
04:06:42,560 --> 04:06:45,200
Speaker 1: bullet in terms of always protecting your privacy, but like

4445
04:06:45,600 --> 04:06:48,520
Speaker 1: the quicker ways that you can kind of at least

4446
04:06:48,720 --> 04:06:52,640
Speaker 1: make yourself generally safers. Use applex signal for for chatting. UM.

4447
04:06:52,720 --> 04:06:56,120
Speaker 1: Also use like auto delete features. UM, you know, don't

4448
04:06:56,200 --> 04:06:59,520
Speaker 1: don't keep like years worth of text messages and stuff

4449
04:06:59,560 --> 04:07:05,640
Speaker 1: like that. UM. Additionally, UM, you know, don't use biometrics

4450
04:07:06,600 --> 04:07:08,800
Speaker 1: because you don't have a Fifth Amendment right for yourself

4451
04:07:08,920 --> 04:07:13,680
Speaker 1: subcrimination for for biometrics. Right SOS so long long reason

4452
04:07:13,720 --> 04:07:16,720
Speaker 1: why that is in the courts, use a password, don't

4453
04:07:16,800 --> 04:07:19,120
Speaker 1: use a short pin. Use a password. I know it's annoying.

4454
04:07:19,280 --> 04:07:21,800
Speaker 1: I know it's like, you know, if a finger prayer

4455
04:07:21,800 --> 04:07:24,640
Speaker 1: in our face, like unlock is like much more convenient.

4456
04:07:24,800 --> 04:07:26,840
Speaker 1: But you know, if you are at high risk or

4457
04:07:26,880 --> 04:07:29,280
Speaker 1: you worry about this stuff and you're concerned about your privacy,

4458
04:07:29,360 --> 04:07:31,280
Speaker 1: like use those things because they can't compel you to

4459
04:07:32,000 --> 04:07:35,480
Speaker 1: do that generally. UM. You know. The other things is

4460
04:07:35,640 --> 04:07:40,320
Speaker 1: UM the UK app e u k I UM, which

4461
04:07:40,400 --> 04:07:43,680
Speaker 1: is a UM sexual health app that has a lot

4462
04:07:43,720 --> 04:07:49,560
Speaker 1: of information about UM, you know, reproductive issues UM. It

4463
04:07:49,640 --> 04:07:52,480
Speaker 1: also is like a menstrual tracker, but it's all encrypted

4464
04:07:52,920 --> 04:07:56,560
Speaker 1: client side, they get no data UM and it has

4465
04:07:56,800 --> 04:07:59,440
Speaker 1: it prompts you for a password and pin to open

4466
04:07:59,520 --> 04:08:03,240
Speaker 1: it UM. And it also has uh resources for self

4467
04:08:03,320 --> 04:08:07,760
Speaker 1: managed abortion UM and and how to safely handle those UM.

4468
04:08:09,000 --> 04:08:12,600
Speaker 1: And yeah, you know, just generally, you know, anything you

4469
04:08:12,640 --> 04:08:14,840
Speaker 1: put out there on social media also like be careful

4470
04:08:14,920 --> 04:08:17,040
Speaker 1: like what you you put out there, like stay to

4471
04:08:17,240 --> 04:08:21,040
Speaker 1: end and end to end encryption, use VPNs if you can.

4472
04:08:21,400 --> 04:08:22,880
Speaker 1: You know that these are just kind of like general

4473
04:08:22,960 --> 04:08:25,240
Speaker 1: stuff like nothing is again ever gonna be full proof,

4474
04:08:25,320 --> 04:08:27,960
Speaker 1: but yeah, there are some small stuff you can take

4475
04:08:28,000 --> 04:08:32,800
Speaker 1: at least increase some of your protections. And on my end,

4476
04:08:33,360 --> 04:08:36,240
Speaker 1: you know, you have a right to remain silent. You

4477
04:08:36,280 --> 04:08:39,560
Speaker 1: should use it, uh and thanks to the Supreme Court,

4478
04:08:39,640 --> 04:08:41,360
Speaker 1: you have to say I want to be silent in

4479
04:08:41,480 --> 04:08:43,560
Speaker 1: order to invoke your right to be silent. You cannot

4480
04:08:43,600 --> 04:08:47,800
Speaker 1: just be silent. Um. So you I would advise people

4481
04:08:47,880 --> 04:08:49,920
Speaker 1: to say, I want to be silent and I want

4482
04:08:49,960 --> 04:08:53,280
Speaker 1: a lawyer. Those are the magic words. I also want

4483
04:08:53,320 --> 04:09:00,360
Speaker 1: to hold that being captured by police officer is a

4484
04:09:00,440 --> 04:09:04,600
Speaker 1: violent experience and a scary experience, and sometimes asserting your

4485
04:09:04,720 --> 04:09:08,240
Speaker 1: rights can provoke more violence, and so people do what

4486
04:09:08,360 --> 04:09:11,160
Speaker 1: they need to do to stay safe in that moment um.

4487
04:09:11,680 --> 04:09:14,840
Speaker 1: From all the law of perspective, saying I would I

4488
04:09:14,920 --> 04:09:18,600
Speaker 1: want to be silent and I want a lawyer, um

4489
04:09:20,200 --> 04:09:24,680
Speaker 1: are the things that invoke all of your constitutional protections. Um.

4490
04:09:25,520 --> 04:09:29,200
Speaker 1: And the police may lie about whether or not you

4491
04:09:29,280 --> 04:09:32,880
Speaker 1: said that later, so you know, say it as many

4492
04:09:32,920 --> 04:09:34,360
Speaker 1: times as you need to. But those are really the

4493
04:09:34,440 --> 04:09:36,840
Speaker 1: only things you should say, which is a lot um

4494
04:09:37,280 --> 04:09:40,240
Speaker 1: easier said than done. But that that is the thing

4495
04:09:40,280 --> 04:09:43,800
Speaker 1: that folks should do if they do find themselves in

4496
04:09:43,960 --> 04:09:46,360
Speaker 1: the custody of law enforcement. And also if you're on

4497
04:09:46,440 --> 04:09:49,040
Speaker 1: the street, ask if you're free to go, and if

4498
04:09:49,080 --> 04:09:51,400
Speaker 1: you're free to go, please walk, do not run away.

4499
04:09:51,800 --> 04:09:59,120
Speaker 1: There's also a case about that God hate the cops. Well,

4500
04:09:59,440 --> 04:10:01,480
Speaker 1: thank you a so much for joining us. Um this

4501
04:10:01,640 --> 04:10:04,080
Speaker 1: this has been really great, and yeah, don't talk to

4502
04:10:04,200 --> 04:10:08,680
Speaker 1: cops yep. Would you like to plug anything before we

4503
04:10:10,080 --> 04:10:12,840
Speaker 1: leave with don't coote the cops? Yeah, I can just

4504
04:10:13,120 --> 04:10:15,560
Speaker 1: throw my personal side. You can follow me on ALLSO

4505
04:10:15,600 --> 04:10:20,160
Speaker 1: shows on Twitter and stuff at Square underscores like Portmanteau

4506
04:10:20,200 --> 04:10:23,480
Speaker 1: of Esquire and Queer s E s q U E

4507
04:10:24,000 --> 04:10:27,600
Speaker 1: R Underscore UM and also have a podcast called Queering

4508
04:10:27,640 --> 04:10:30,400
Speaker 1: the Law um or talk about a lot of these

4509
04:10:30,440 --> 04:10:32,280
Speaker 1: issues as well. UM, so if you want to give

4510
04:10:32,320 --> 04:10:38,520
Speaker 1: that a listen. UM, don't follow me on social media

4511
04:10:39,240 --> 04:10:42,840
Speaker 1: because all my stuff is closed, but I would recommend

4512
04:10:42,880 --> 04:10:46,040
Speaker 1: that folks follow at IF when how on all socials

4513
04:10:46,040 --> 04:10:50,040
Speaker 1: because we're always uh providing up to date information on

4514
04:10:50,160 --> 04:10:53,000
Speaker 1: what's actually going on with carminalization of self managed abortion

4515
04:10:53,320 --> 04:10:57,160
Speaker 1: and resources from you know, community partners that are on

4516
04:10:57,280 --> 04:10:59,920
Speaker 1: the ground, local that are doing the work. So if

4517
04:11:00,040 --> 04:11:02,480
Speaker 1: lks are looking to get connected, I would say reach

4518
04:11:02,520 --> 04:11:04,160
Speaker 1: out to IF one how and we can usually point

4519
04:11:04,200 --> 04:11:09,000
Speaker 1: you in the right direction. You could follow me on Twitter,

4520
04:11:09,120 --> 04:11:11,240
Speaker 1: but I don't really remember what my handle is, so

4521
04:11:12,280 --> 04:11:15,480
Speaker 1: what I would suggest that you do. Uh, pre trials,

4522
04:11:15,520 --> 04:11:17,840
Speaker 1: attention and bail litigation is really my heart. You got

4523
04:11:17,920 --> 04:11:20,000
Speaker 1: folks locked up and they haven't even been found guilty.

4524
04:11:20,560 --> 04:11:22,480
Speaker 1: Not that anyone should be locked up. So donate to

4525
04:11:22,480 --> 04:11:24,840
Speaker 1: your local bail fund if you don't know who that is.

4526
04:11:26,000 --> 04:11:30,120
Speaker 1: There's a lot of organs, National Bailout, the Bail Project,

4527
04:11:30,240 --> 04:11:31,680
Speaker 1: there's a lot of places you can find that. But

4528
04:11:32,280 --> 04:11:36,040
Speaker 1: growing five, ten, fifteen dollars at your local bail fund,

4529
04:11:36,120 --> 04:11:38,800
Speaker 1: we'll get someone free because you can purchase your freedom

4530
04:11:38,840 --> 04:11:47,960
Speaker 1: here in America. So um do that. M Yeah, thank

4531
04:11:48,000 --> 04:11:51,120
Speaker 1: you so much that this has been They can happen here. Uh,

4532
04:11:51,400 --> 04:11:54,600
Speaker 1: you can find us in places don't talk to cops,

4533
04:11:54,880 --> 04:11:57,520
Speaker 1: and yeah, if there weren't any cops, you couldn't make

4534
04:11:57,520 --> 04:12:03,000
Speaker 1: things legal. H Hey, we'll be back Monday with more

4535
04:12:03,080 --> 04:12:05,720
Speaker 1: episodes every week from now until the heat death of

4536
04:12:05,760 --> 04:12:08,320
Speaker 1: the Universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of

4537
04:12:08,360 --> 04:12:11,280
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

4538
04:12:11,400 --> 04:12:13,880
Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone Media dot com, or check

4539
04:12:13,920 --> 04:12:16,200
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

4540
04:12:16,320 --> 04:12:19,120
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources

4541
04:12:19,160 --> 04:12:21,720
Speaker 1: for It Could Happen Here. Updated monthly at cool Zone

4542
04:12:21,760 --> 04:12:24,480
Speaker 1: Media dot com slash sources, Thanks for listening.