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Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati this week Green politics

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Speaker 1: on the rise. When the UK sneezes, the US catches

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Speaker 1: a cold. That's what some pundits said when the UK

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Speaker 1: voted to leave the European Union just months before Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump was elected as the US President for the first

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Speaker 1: time in twenty sixteen. It was signaling the rise of

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Speaker 1: an unfamiliar politics in both countries, and that's what many

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Speaker 1: think will happen now. Just in reverse. The US has

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Speaker 1: elected Donald Trump for the second time, and the political

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Speaker 1: wins are currently blowing in the direction of putting Nigel

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Speaker 1: Farage and his right wing Reform Party in power here

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Speaker 1: in the UK. But Zack Polanski is challenging that notion.

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Speaker 1: Since he became the leader of the Green Party in

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Speaker 1: September twenty twenty five, he has run a popular campaign

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Speaker 1: that means the Green Party is now polling above the

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Speaker 1: incumbent Labor Party and the opposition Conservative Party. It's still

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Speaker 1: below Reform, but it's a remarkable rise that many see

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Speaker 1: as a popular left wing alternative to Reform. So how

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Speaker 1: did he pull it off and what will he do

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Speaker 1: if the Green Party gets into power. Here's my interview

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Speaker 1: with Zach Polanski. This time we also have that conversation

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Speaker 1: on video. Look for the Bloomberg Podcast channel on YouTube.

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Speaker 1: We'll also put a link in the show notes. Zach,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: So you've done something that no other Green Party leader

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Speaker 1: has been able to achieve, which is now you are

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Speaker 1: polling higher than the ruling Labor Party and the Grand

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Speaker 1: Old Conservative Party in some polls. You've also been accused

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Speaker 1: of not talking about climate as the leader of the

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Speaker 1: Green Party, and you've hit back saying, no, I talk

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Speaker 1: about climate all the time. It's that people don't know

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Speaker 1: us about our economic views, our defense views, and so

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Speaker 1: we highlight those a little more often. So let me

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Speaker 1: start there. If the Green Party were to form a

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Speaker 1: ruling majority today and you get into power, how would

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Speaker 1: you incorporate your climate views with your views on health, economics, defense,

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Speaker 1: foreign policy. At a time when there's a cost of

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Speaker 1: living crisis, there's an energy crisis, and there are multiple

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Speaker 1: ongoing wars. What is your big vision for the UK?

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Speaker 2: I think the first thing to say is the climate

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Speaker 2: crisis is inextricably linked with all of those errors. So

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Speaker 2: we can't talk about housing, for instance, without talking about

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Speaker 2: the climate crisis. Let me give you an example. In

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Speaker 2: the UK, we have some of the least insulated homes

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Speaker 2: in Europe. They're incredibly energy inefficient. That's awful for people's

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Speaker 2: bills because it means you're turning the heat up, and

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Speaker 2: actually it's just escaping the home. That's awful for the

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Speaker 2: climate as well in climate missions. So what we need

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Speaker 2: to be doing is insulating every home in Britain that

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Speaker 2: needs it. That could be creating hundreds of thousands of

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Speaker 2: good green jobs. They could then be paid properly where

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Speaker 2: people are treated with dignity and care. So that's just

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Speaker 2: one example of where you could look at any sector.

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Speaker 2: You could both look at what the sector is and

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Speaker 2: how that impacts our environment and climate. More widely, though,

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Speaker 2: in terms of for a future green government, I want

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Speaker 2: to see a major investment in renewable energy, in making

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Speaker 2: sure that we're investing in solar panels, wind turbines, in

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Speaker 2: fact even tidal of the future. I want to make

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Speaker 2: sure that we're looking at how do we support workers

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Speaker 2: in the workplace. Of course that's a worker's rights issue,

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Speaker 2: but it's also a climate adaptation issue. We know we're

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Speaker 2: going to be facing hotter summers colder winters. We need

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Speaker 2: to make sure when people are in the workplace they

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Speaker 2: have decent working conditions. And then we need to look

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Speaker 2: at the impacts of a climate crisis, things like wildfires

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Speaker 2: and floods that we're seeing both here in the UK

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Speaker 2: but right across the world we're seeing in increasing amounts now.

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Speaker 2: People will often say wildfires and floods aren't necessarily a

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Speaker 2: climate crisis, and that's true, but the repetition of extreme

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Speaker 2: weather at the extremities we're often seeing it is entirely

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Speaker 2: for climate crisis. And so we both need to reduce

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Speaker 2: mitigate our emissions by making sure we're transitioning our behaviors,

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Speaker 2: and also we need to make sure that we adapt

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Speaker 2: because sadly a lot of the climate risks are already

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Speaker 2: baked in now. The UN Secretary General has says this

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Speaker 2: is the crucial decade of action, and I'm sure we'll

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Speaker 2: get to this in the conversation, but I think the

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Speaker 2: most important frame everyone needs to look at right now,

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Speaker 2: particularly from an economic point of view, is what is

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Speaker 2: the cost of inaction versus the cost of action We

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Speaker 2: needed to do this decades ago. We can't rewrite history,

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Speaker 2: So let's make sure we take the action now.

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Speaker 1: You've also said that one aspect of the climate crisis

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Speaker 1: is that it's part of the defense story. It's part

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Speaker 1: of the national security story. And just because we are

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Speaker 1: at an incredibly weird time in the world with multiple

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Speaker 1: wars going on, I want to get us to the

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Speaker 1: now and look at you know, the fact that US

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Speaker 1: and Brazil are attacking Iran is now retaliating by attacking

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Speaker 1: oil and gas facilities. Oil prices, gas prices are record high.

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Speaker 1: They're having all sorts of downstream impacts. Here in the UK,

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Speaker 1: energy prices are likely to go up. The UK now

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Speaker 1: has its borrowing costs reached levels that are as high

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Speaker 1: as during the two thousand and eight financial crisis, so

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Speaker 1: government payments on interest are going to go up. Say

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Speaker 1: you were Prime minister today, leader of a G seven country,

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Speaker 1: of a nuclear power, what would you do differently than

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Speaker 1: what Gearstarmer has done. Well.

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Speaker 2: I think we need to look at a short term

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Speaker 2: and the long term. So let's start with a short term.

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Speaker 2: This is Trump and Neett and Yahoo's war. It's a

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Speaker 2: deeply unpopular and the legal war, and I don't want

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Speaker 2: to see the UK anywhere near it. But actually, whether

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Speaker 2: we're involved militarily or not, ordinary people are paying the

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Speaker 2: price for this war because we are seeing energy prices

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Speaker 2: rising in the UK in particular, and I know this

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Speaker 2: is similar right across the world. Energy prices were already

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Speaker 2: too high. We were already deep into a cost of

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Speaker 2: living crisis. So it is completely unacceptable to even imagine

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Speaker 2: energy bills are going to rise further. The government need

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Speaker 2: to intervene. They need to step in at the moment

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Speaker 2: we have an energy cap. Up until June, I've been

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Speaker 2: talking about putting eight point four billion pounds aside to

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Speaker 2: make sure that bills don't rise higher than that. Now

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Speaker 2: it's looking each day as time goes past, they might

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Speaker 2: rise higher than that. So we need to go right

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Speaker 2: back and look at how else do we subsidize people's

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Speaker 2: energy bills. The fundamental principle here, though, is we cannot

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Speaker 2: allow people to freeze in the winter. We cannot allow

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Speaker 2: people to live in damp and moldy homes, and it's

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Speaker 2: a government's job to intervene. The longer term, though, is

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Speaker 2: the much more important conversation in terms of making sure

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Speaker 2: we don't keep facing these repeated climate shops and these

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Speaker 2: energy risks, And in fact, there was a report from

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Speaker 2: the Committee on Climate Change that showed that if we

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Speaker 2: decarbonized by twenty fifty, that would cost less than just

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Speaker 2: one single time of these energy shocks that we keep having.

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Speaker 2: So this inaction is costing as badly both in terms

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Speaker 2: of our energy bills but also in terms of a

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Speaker 2: climate crisis. So what would I do in the long term?

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Speaker 2: We need to have a conversation about something like a

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Speaker 2: rising block tariff to make sure that people's energy builds

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Speaker 2: up until a certain point are actually free. Now that's

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Speaker 2: complicated because if you have someone who's disabled or with

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Speaker 2: a long term health condition in the house, you're likely

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Speaker 2: to use more energy. So there is a conversation about

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Speaker 2: how do you make the thresholds work. How do you

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Speaker 2: also still encourage demand efficiency to reduce the demand that

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Speaker 2: people are making. But altiately, we need to look at

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Speaker 2: a much bigger system of how we produce our energy

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Speaker 2: and where it comes from. And of course the biggest

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Speaker 2: answer of all is we do need to transition. We

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Speaker 2: need to move to renewable energy. It's much cheaper than

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Speaker 2: oil and gas economically, and of course it's also vital

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Speaker 2: for tackling the climate crisis.

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Speaker 1: But in the short term, if subsidizing energy to bring

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Speaker 1: builds down is the measure you want to take at

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Speaker 1: a time when the UK's boring costs have reached such

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Speaker 1: record levels, how exactly are you going to be able

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Speaker 1: to pay for this extra spending that the UK government

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Speaker 1: has done once in a rese and past in an

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Speaker 1: energy crisis that was caused when Rashia attacked Ukraine and

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Speaker 1: gas prices went crazy.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so my proposal isn't actually for borrowing for this

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Speaker 2: specific measure. It's actually about taxation. I want to bring

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Speaker 2: capital gains tax in line with income tax. And the

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Speaker 2: reason why that's important is right now we're taxing earned

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Speaker 2: income more than we're taxing un earned wealth. I think

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Speaker 2: that's both bad in terms of the money that comes

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Speaker 2: into a treasury, but also there's a fairness angle here.

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Speaker 2: It can't be right that the one percent are allowed

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Speaker 2: to hoard wealth because actually that's really bad for our economy.

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Speaker 2: It means, once they've bought assets and there's nothing else

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Speaker 2: to buy, they buy our democracy, they buy our media channels.

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Speaker 2: And actually, what I'm arguing for is we need a

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Speaker 2: fairer taxation system. Now, does that mean I don't also

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Speaker 2: want to have a conversation about borrowing in the long term, Yes,

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Speaker 2: I do, but when we're borrowing ultimately, we want to

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Speaker 2: make sure that the majority of that borrowing is for

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Speaker 2: investment rather than consumption. In fact, I had a conversation

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Speaker 2: with a Nobel Prize winning Joseph Stiglitz, and he talked

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Speaker 2: about the distinction here that governments for a long time

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Speaker 2: have borrowed for consumption and how that doesn't particul work.

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Speaker 2: And we saw that with the Liszt Trust mini budget.

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Speaker 2: That's why here I want to use taxation to fund

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Speaker 2: that energy subsidy. But in terms of investing in the

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Speaker 2: just transition in the infrastructure, then yes, absolutely that should

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Speaker 2: be about borrowing, but it's clear that that's borrowing from

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Speaker 2: investment in the long term to make sure that money

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Speaker 2: is coming back into our economy and dealing with the

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Speaker 2: climate crisis over the longer term.

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Speaker 1: I want to come more to your vision of how

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Speaker 1: you would run the UK economy a little further, because

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Speaker 1: you had a big speech. You're putting together plans, but

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Speaker 1: sticking to foreign policy a little bit longer because it

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Speaker 1: has impacts on the UK. You've talked about how when

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Speaker 1: the war is on European shores, as it is with Ukraine,

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Speaker 1: you would prefer a negotiated piece rather than entering a war,

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Speaker 1: rather than forcing the opposition to bow down, And that

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Speaker 1: would mean you would have to have conversations and build

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Speaker 1: a relationship with blood may put In, and you said

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Speaker 1: you're open to doing that. Any kind of deal made

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Speaker 1: with a dictator will require you to make compromises. What

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Speaker 1: kind of compromises would you be open to making? Say

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Speaker 1: Russia says, you know, we will stop this, start buying

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Speaker 1: our oil and gas, remove all the sanctions on our

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Speaker 1: oil and gas. Would you be open to doing that?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the first thing to say is that

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Speaker 2: the antithesis of this argument that my opponents often make

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Speaker 2: is absolutely absurd, because ultimately the only place it can

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Speaker 2: go is that the UK will be at war with Russia.

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Speaker 2: And so that is clearly the scenario we need to avoid.

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Speaker 2: And so when I talk about negotiation and when I

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Speaker 2: talk about diplomacy, I always want to make sure and

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Speaker 2: make it really clear that's not about walking in and

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Speaker 2: giving someone everything they want. It doesn't even mean necessary

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Speaker 2: meeting them face to face. I think what I'm saying

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Speaker 2: is highly uncontentious. I'm just saying that teams from the

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Speaker 2: UK and teams from a Russia from Russia should be

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Speaker 2: maintaining an open dialogue in the way that they often do,

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Speaker 2: and in the way that Trump is doing with Putin

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Speaker 2: and Trump is doing with Netanyahu, two people that you know,

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Speaker 2: I see as running oppressive governments or regimes at the moment,

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Speaker 2: and so I think it's any politician's job, and particularly

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Speaker 2: a political leader's job, to keep the door or open

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Speaker 2: to negotiation and to peace. That's very different from saying

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Speaker 2: that's easy. That's something that I think is highly possible

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Speaker 2: or even likely. But I think the moment you've shut

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Speaker 2: down that option, what you're essentially then doing is giving

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Speaker 2: the biggest payout ever to the military. I obviously have

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Speaker 2: an issue with that in itself, but the much bigger

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Speaker 2: issue I have is millions of people will die, and

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Speaker 2: so I don't think that can ever be option. In

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Speaker 2: terms of negotiating with Putin, I think that becomes a

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Speaker 2: much bigger conversation. I think it's important that the sanctions

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Speaker 2: do remain in place. He's launched a legal war in Ukraine.

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Speaker 2: We have seen thousands and thousands of people die, and

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Speaker 2: there doesn't seem to be an end to the kind

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Speaker 2: of oppressiveness of which he seeks to put on a

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Speaker 2: region that has its right to self determination. This argument,

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Speaker 2: by the way, is consistent with the argument I make

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Speaker 2: for the Palestinians too. Again, I don't think it's contentious

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Speaker 2: to say that I don't think innocent people should die,

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Speaker 2: and I think when people live somewhere, they should have

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Speaker 2: the right to decide who makes the rules and who

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Speaker 2: governs over them. So that's morally consistent. I think in

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Speaker 2: the longer term. There was an interesting report out from

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Speaker 2: the Joint Intelligence Chiefs in the UK. This is the

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Speaker 2: head of m I five and six, and it talks

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Speaker 2: about real security in this country, and actually, real security

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Speaker 2: in this country looks like tackling the climate crisis, having

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Speaker 2: pandemic resilience, taking cybersecurity seriously. So of course we need

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Speaker 2: to consider our national security, but I think we need

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Speaker 2: to consider it as a mix of lots of other

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Speaker 2: elements that often get missed out of the conversation because

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Speaker 2: we get obsessed with the idea that there's an imminent

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Speaker 2: invasion from Russia. That doesn't look like it's on the cards.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't mean we shouldn't take it seriously in the

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Speaker 2: long term, but I don't see that same level. So

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Speaker 2: that severity given to the climate crisis, which is not

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Speaker 2: a distant or abstract threat. It's right here, right now,

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Speaker 2: and that's what we should be investing in.

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Speaker 1: Well, but any kind of investments that you make the

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Speaker 1: words the issues of climate crisis, of cybersecurity is spending

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Speaker 1: you're going to have to make against spending that many

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Speaker 1: other people would think needs to be made on defense. Today,

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Speaker 1: you've talked about the fact that the US has basis

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Speaker 1: here in the UK that we should get rid of

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Speaker 1: those bases, that we in the UK should create our

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Speaker 1: own defense strategy, not rely on another unpredictable world leader

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Speaker 1: in Donald Trump in the White House. If you are

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Speaker 1: going to try and do that, how exactly will you

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Speaker 1: square some of the circles that the Green Party has?

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Speaker 1: So the Green Party would like to dismantle the nuclear

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Speaker 1: weapons program and all the nuclear weapons the UK has,

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Speaker 1: how would you deal with that when there are all

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Speaker 1: these nuclear powers that are currently at war and putting

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Speaker 1: UK security on a red alert.

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Speaker 2: Well, the first thing to say is you said, people

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Speaker 2: want to see us deal with defense today the threats today,

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Speaker 2: and I agree, the threats today are wildfires and floods

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Speaker 2: that are coming down the track. In fact, this summer

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Speaker 2: we could see one of the hotter summers ever. We've

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Speaker 2: sin certainly experienced that a few times over the last

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Speaker 2: few years, and we saw a flood in Valencia just

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Speaker 2: a few years ago that tragically people lost their lives. Now,

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Speaker 2: I've chaired the Environment Committee in London for a few

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Speaker 2: years now, and I also am the current chair of

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Speaker 2: the Fire Committee, and so I speak to fire officers

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Speaker 2: all the time who know the real threat to the

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Speaker 2: climate crisis. And something that someone who works for a

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Speaker 2: met off has said to me on record was the

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Speaker 2: only reason why people didn't die in floods in the

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Speaker 2: way that they have done in Valencia is pure luck.

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Speaker 2: London is not ready right now to deal with some

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Speaker 2: of these impacts that we might experience, and so we

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Speaker 2: need to be making sure that we're building flood defenses,

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Speaker 2: that we're making sure we're investing in our fire brigade.

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Speaker 2: I'm always worried about what they call the domino effect,

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Speaker 2: that you have a moment where you have say, wildfires

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Speaker 2: that scorched the earth, which then means it's much easier

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Speaker 2: for flooding to happen a few days later, because then

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Speaker 2: the earth isn't as poorous as it might be, And

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Speaker 2: so you see impacts of one climate at risk hitting

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Speaker 2: another climate risk. Then you have firefighters who are exhausted,

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Speaker 2: then their resources spread around the country and suddenly you're

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Speaker 2: really getting into a disaster scenario. Now, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to use hyperbole. There's lots of ways we can make

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Speaker 2: sure we mitigate for that and the fire the fire

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Speaker 2: Brigade doing incredible work, particularly in London, but fire brigades

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Speaker 2: right across the UK and indeed ram the wa world.

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Speaker 2: But we can't fight with nature. And unless we make

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Speaker 2: sure that we mitigate our omissions and invest in climate adaptation,

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Speaker 2: those risks are going to come down the track.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: On nuclear I think it's important to say that the

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Speaker 2: UK Security Advisor, Jonathan Powell, not someone who's politics necessarily

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Speaker 2: aligned with mine all the time, said that a randra

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Speaker 2: of the negotiating table they were literally ready to make

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Speaker 2: a deal, and in fact a representative of OMAR said

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Speaker 2: we're a couple of days away from that happening. So

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Speaker 2: it's important to recognize that in this conversation what happened

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Speaker 2: was Trump came in and assassinated the Ayatolla. We now

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Speaker 2: know the new one could be even more hardline than

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Speaker 2: his father. So this was a war with no plan.

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Speaker 2: It was deeply irresponsible and I don't want the UK

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Speaker 2: anywhere near those decisions. So when people talk about nuclear

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Speaker 2: and how do we denuclearize, I want to be clear.

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Speaker 2: I want to see multilateral disarmament. I don't support nuclear weapons,

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Speaker 2: so it would be an absurd argument for me to

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Speaker 2: want to eliminate the UK's nuclear weapons but be fine

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Speaker 2: with other countries having nuclear weapons. I want to see

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Speaker 2: global leadership, and in fact, the UK has signed the

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Speaker 2: Non Proliferation Treaty, as have many other countries. We just

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Speaker 2: haven't stuck to that, and so we need to get

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Speaker 2: back to the negotiating table. And then the final thing

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Speaker 2: I'd say, because it often gets missed here, is we've

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Speaker 2: still not seen any evidence that around have nuclear weapons,

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Speaker 2: and it's all very repiniscent of Iraq and the weapons

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Speaker 2: of mass destruction. What we do know, or we strongly suspect,

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Speaker 2: is that Israel has nuclear weapons. In fact, it's the

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Speaker 2: only country in the Middle East that has nuclear weapons.

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Speaker 2: Now they have a strategy I believe it's called strategic ambiguity,

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Speaker 2: where they don't confirm it or deny it. But the

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Speaker 2: House of Commons in the UK, in our parliament, has

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Speaker 2: a record that says it is a very strong likely

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Speaker 2: possibility that's accepted around the world that Israel is in

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Speaker 2: possession of nuclear weapons.

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Speaker 1: There are going to be trade offs that you have

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Speaker 1: to make in the process. One of the tradeoffs that

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Speaker 1: you talked about when dealing with the nuclear issue is

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Speaker 1: to rely more on European partners and build a security

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Speaker 1: alliance within Europe rather than relying on NATO, where you

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Speaker 1: say Trump has too much power. It is not something

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Speaker 1: they do. You can reform from THEE But Emanuel Macron

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Speaker 1: has come out and said he's going to increase the

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Speaker 1: nuclear arsenal at this moment. So even the Europeans are

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Speaker 1: feeling pressure at this moment. If you build this coalition

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Speaker 1: where you would want disarmament of all countries to happen,

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Speaker 1: what is the process to get that kind of global

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Speaker 1: cooperation going at this moment? You know, I go to

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Speaker 1: cop conferences every year annually and what we have noticed

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Speaker 1: is that a progress does get made, but the disintegration

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Speaker 1: of the world is also real, that disagreements are getting

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Speaker 1: much more serious, and thus the action is slowing down.

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Speaker 1: So what is your recipe to try and really start

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Speaker 1: global cooperation on all these big major issues that are

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Speaker 1: affecting US nuclear disarmament, climate crisis. How do you bring

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Speaker 1: a fragmenting world together.

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Speaker 2: Well, Pedro Sanchez, for Spanish Prime Minister or president, is

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Speaker 2: leading away on this. He's been very vocal both on

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Speaker 2: Trump and that's in Yahu's war, but more widely, I'm

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Speaker 2: speaking about out the need for a more compassionate system

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Speaker 2: of migration. Now that sounds different to your conversation, but

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Speaker 2: of course these are all international issues where we need

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Speaker 2: people to come together, and we need global leadership that

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Speaker 2: both looks after the people in our own country but

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Speaker 2: also recognizes we don't exist as an island. Well, we

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Speaker 2: are an island, but actually we exist within a world

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Speaker 2: where it's made up of multiple islands and multiple countries

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Speaker 2: and those do need ultimate cooperation with each other. So

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Speaker 2: although we exist as an island, you can't operate in

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Speaker 2: some kind of autarchy where you don't have any negotiation

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Speaker 2: or trade with anyone else. So I think what what

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Speaker 2: needs to happen here is, first of all, we need

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Speaker 2: to recognize that Brexit has been an absolute disaster for

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Speaker 2: the UK, both socially and culturally, economically, but frankly in

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Speaker 2: terms of our military and security as well. So what

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Speaker 2: I want to see is a commitment to rejoining the

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Speaker 2: European Union. Now there's a question about whether europe would

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Speaker 2: want the UK back, and I think that's a legitimate

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Speaker 2: and open question, but I think it's time for us

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Speaker 2: to start making those conversations. As I say that, there

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Speaker 2: are lots of European countries, particularly our European Green friends,

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Speaker 2: who say very openly that Europe would be happy to

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Speaker 2: have the UK back, but of course from negotiation. I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to pretend for a second wouldn't be complicated.

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Speaker 2: But I think it's about time someone started naming that.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, when I've been saying that over the

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Speaker 2: past few months, I've been pleased to see a lend

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Speaker 2: the merced he Cahn't is now following with what I've

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Speaker 2: been saying, So that's a good step in the right direction. Second,

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Speaker 2: I think we need to recognize how much reliance we

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Speaker 2: have in this country in the UK on the United States,

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Speaker 2: particularly for our military. In fact, eighty six percent of

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Speaker 2: our arms exports come from the USA. I don't think

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Speaker 2: that's tenable. I also don't think it's tenable that trident

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Speaker 2: on nuclear capability hasn't had a successful test case in

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Speaker 2: the last ten years, and in fact we are reliant

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Speaker 2: on the maintenance from the United States. Tony Blair said

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Speaker 2: that he would be unthinkable for US to use our

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Speaker 2: nuclear weapon without the assistance of the United States. Now

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Speaker 2: I think that was problematic ten twenty years ago. I

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Speaker 2: think it's beyond problematic when Donald Trump is in the

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Speaker 2: White House, because I don't think we can rely on

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Speaker 2: our real security for him to be in a good

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Speaker 2: mood that or whatever might be on his mind or

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Speaker 2: however he's feeling towards the UK. And frankly, the words

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Speaker 2: that he's been saying towards Kissed Armer, a man that

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Speaker 2: I don't often defend, have been outrageous. That is not

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Speaker 2: how someone who's supposedly an ally treats another ally. So

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Speaker 2: the whole point I'm getting to here is I think

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Speaker 2: we need to do one of two things. I think

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Speaker 2: we need to rebuild our relationships with our European neighbors.

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Speaker 2: And also, I think we need to look at economic

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Speaker 2: sovereignty for the UK, and that includes energy independence, that

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Speaker 2: includes military independence. It means not relying so heavily on

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Speaker 2: other countries, particularly unpredictable countries like the United States, and

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Speaker 2: actually taking our own real national security and energy security

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Speaker 2: and independence more seriously.

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Speaker 1: Well, the UK goaman might push back and say, no,

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Speaker 1: we actually do have full access to our nuclear arsenal.

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Speaker 1: But you talked about economic sovereignty. Now, if we are

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Speaker 1: going to rejoin the EU this time, they might ask

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Speaker 1: us to give up the pound and join the euro

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Speaker 1: Would you be open to do that?

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Speaker 2: And I personally wouldn't because I think we've seen over

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Speaker 2: and over again how dangerous that can be for a

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Speaker 2: country their economy. I'd say that's exactly the kind of

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Speaker 2: thing that we would need to negotiate, But for me,

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Speaker 2: that would be a probable redline.

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Speaker 1: After the break, I asked Zach about how the UK

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Speaker 1: can revive its stagnant economy and which industry is heat

436
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,639
Speaker 1: champion to make that happen. If you're enjoying this episode

437
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,760
Speaker 1: of Zero, please take a moment to share it far

438
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,640
Speaker 1: and wide, write a review for us on Apple, podcast,

439
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,600
Speaker 1: YouTube or Spotify. It helps new listeners discover the show.

440
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,679
Speaker 1: Let's turn to the UK and to your speech that

441
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 1: you gave at the New Economics Foundation. As Prime Minister,

442
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 1: you're going to have to think about how the UK

443
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 1: economy becomes competitive, how it progresses, how it improves its status,

444
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 1: its wealth, its prosperity. You have ideas about increasing taxes

445
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,959
Speaker 1: and redistribution to try and reduce inequality, and those are

446
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 1: welcome by many people, but specifically on the UK, what

447
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,679
Speaker 1: do you think are the levers that would drive the

448
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,160
Speaker 1: economy that you would be pushing for. Is it industry,

449
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 1: is it technology? Is it financial services? Is it the

450
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 1: energy transition? You have to be able to pick a

451
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,879
Speaker 1: bed that you would back that would allow for the

452
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,639
Speaker 1: UK to get out of this stagnating spiral of economic

453
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 1: stagnation that we've seen in the country.

454
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 2: I think there's two problems to this. So the first

455
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 2: it's about inflation busting, and I'll talk about that, and

456
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 2: also then there's about business and productivity. In terms of

457
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 2: inflation busting, we need to bring down people's bills and

458
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 2: actually that's because what we're doing is removing people's purchasing power.

459
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,679
Speaker 2: If people are struggling just to get buy just to

460
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 2: pay for rent or heat their homes, then of course

461
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,199
Speaker 2: they're not going to be buying a coffee at a

462
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 2: local cafe, going out for a pint at the end

463
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:51,919
Speaker 2: of a week, or picking up a present from mom

464
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 2: on the way home from work. We really need to

465
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 2: make sure that we're removing ourselves from an economy which

466
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,639
Speaker 2: we used to be, where people use to earn money

467
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 2: by making things that people need, and far too often

468
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 2: now we're an economy where people make money by owning things,

469
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 2: by selling them or renting them to other people. And

470
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,640
Speaker 2: that's just not working because the gap between the super

471
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: rich and the poor is getting wider and wider. So

472
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 2: in the speech I talked about things like rent controls.

473
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 2: If we'd frozen rents in autumn twenty twenty two, we

474
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 2: would have saved on average three three hundred pounds per

475
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 2: household per year in rent that was just going into

476
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 2: pockets of landlords. The reason why that's important is that

477
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 2: then would have been eighteen billion pounds of purchasing power

478
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 2: where people who are renters would have had that money

479
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 2: to put straight back into economy, which would have been

480
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 2: good for small businesses, medium businesses. In fact, it would

481
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 2: have been good for everyone. What we have is a

482
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 2: situation where people, even who are living in social housing

483
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 2: previously there's been sold to private housing and is then

484
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,719
Speaker 2: being subsidized by a welfare bill, where that money from

485
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 2: the government is going straight into the hands of landlords.

486
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,360
Speaker 2: That makes absolutely no sense because actually what we could

487
00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 2: be doing is making sure that money is going around

488
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 2: the economy rather again than being hoarded on productivity and investment.

489
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 2: I think this is really interesting. So I had a

490
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 2: conversation recently with the economist Mariana Matsakatu, and she talks

491
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: a lot about missions and missions for government. Now, the

492
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,919
Speaker 2: waykier Starma has done this, I would argue, is completely

493
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 2: the wrong way around. His mission is economic growth, and

494
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 2: what I would argue is that's not a mission. That's

495
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 2: what happens when you've got the missions right, you get

496
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 2: economic growth at the end of it. Actually, the mission

497
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 2: should be things like reducing inequality, tackling the climate crisis,

498
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 2: empowering communities, and then you have criteria of exactly what

499
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,239
Speaker 2: you're measuring, and these mission should be cross cutting. When

500
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 2: you're thinking about tackling the climate crisis, you should think

501
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 2: about housing, education, the environment. How do all of these

502
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,880
Speaker 2: places move to tackle the climate crisis. Once you've got

503
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 2: that plan and you're clearly communicating that plan, you're communicating

504
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 2: with the bomb markets, you're communicating with private business because

505
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 2: they're not ideological. They just want to know that there's

506
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 2: a clear plan that they can invest in or that

507
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 2: they can be involved in that is going to bring

508
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 2: clear returns and spending multipliers when we invest in the economy.

509
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: What we have right now is very short term thinking,

510
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,159
Speaker 2: particularly with the Office of Budget Responsibility, where we're in

511
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 2: this bomb market doom loop. We're often just thinking about

512
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 2: the next six months and spending multipliers get limited at

513
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 2: the end of six months. What that is doing is

514
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 2: creating the very market jitters that it was designed to avoid,

515
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 2: and we just end up in this awful loop. We

516
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 2: need to be looking much more long term, including speaking

517
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 2: with business to invest in tackling with the climate crisis.

518
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 2: So when government work with business, it shouldn't be business

519
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 2: dictating to government about what they're doing, but neither should

520
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 2: it be government strangling business and telling them how to

521
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: do things. The best people to innovate are businesses. The

522
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 2: government should be giving money or contracts conditionally as long

523
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,880
Speaker 2: as they meet the mission targets that the government are setting.

524
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 2: And so there's a whole relationship between government business that

525
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 2: this government's got completely wrong. In fact, governments since Thatcher

526
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: have got really wrong because we've pushed far too strongly

527
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 2: towards privatization and towards profit margin. There is absolutely a

528
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 2: role for business, but it should be about making sure

529
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 2: we're protecting and empowering our communities and utilizing business to

530
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 2: provide social good and social purpose to the country.

531
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 1: So Mariannamazukado has been advising the Libor government as well.

532
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 1: One mission of this government in power rate now comes

533
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 1: from Marianamazukado's work, which is the Clean Power Mission. Do

534
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 1: you disagree with the goal of reaching ninety five percent

535
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: clean power rate twenty twoty?

536
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 2: Of course, I think it's a brilliant goal and I'm

537
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 2: really pleased to see that goal is set. There's immediately

538
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,479
Speaker 2: questions though, So for instance, the government launched Great British Energy.

539
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 2: We're now eighteen months on and I still think no

540
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 2: one's quite sure what Great British Energy is and we

541
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 2: hear this conversation a lot with nationalizations. So let's talk

542
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 2: about the water companies. We privatized the water companies. We're

543
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:43,959
Speaker 2: one of a few countries in the world to have

544
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,479
Speaker 2: private water and that means that up to thirty percent

545
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 2: of bill that consumers are paying or citizens are paying,

546
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 2: go straight towards servicing the debt and to sharehold the dividends.

547
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 2: This is despite the fact we have water companies in

548
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 2: the UK pumping sewage into our rivers and seas and

549
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 2: charging is extra for that privilege. We should be bringing

550
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 2: the water companies back into public hands. Now, when someone says,

551
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 2: how would you afford to do that, wouldn't that be

552
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 2: very expensive? I interviewed fergl Sharki recently, who's a water

553
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,439
Speaker 2: campaign or, on my own podcast, Bold Politics, and he

554
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 2: talked about something called appropriate value. Now, what this means

555
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 2: is the government could take the water companies into special

556
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 2: administration and then recognize that the value of the debt

557
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,479
Speaker 2: is much higher than the cost of the repairs. So

558
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 2: actually the water companies, because of what shareholders have done,

559
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 2: are effectively worth nothing. We should be buying that the

560
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 2: water companies at zero cost to tax payers and then

561
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 2: making sure we're bringing down people's bills by actually having

562
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 2: a water company that works. And by the way, again,

563
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 2: this is a way to reduce inflation, because what we're

564
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: doing is making sure we have an economy that works

565
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 2: for everyone and not just private business.

566
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: But you know, I grew up in India and so

567
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: sewage in waters is something I grew up with. And

568
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,360
Speaker 1: so coming here in a developed country and hearing that

569
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: that's what's happening here the country that built out the

570
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 1: sewage system, the modern sewage system, for the first time,

571
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: we're shocking to me. And clearly the water companies have

572
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: been run shordily and those results are there for you

573
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: to see. But in this privatization spree that happened in

574
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: the UK, there are good examples too. The grid was

575
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 1: privatized in the process. The National grid Operator right now

576
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 1: is government owned, but the assets are privately owned. It

577
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 1: is a thing that is going to be building towards

578
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 1: this clean power mission of reaching it by twenty thirty.

579
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: Do you think that's working, that privatization of the grid

580
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:31,360
Speaker 1: is working well.

581
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: I think we need to look at energy in around

582
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 2: So the first thing I think we need to do

583
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: is decouple gas from energy because right now that's inflating

584
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 2: the price and it's ridiculous and there's absolutely no need

585
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 2: to do it. We also need to be putting gas

586
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 2: into a strategic reserve, looking at something like a A

587
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 2: B model, or indeed nationalizing our gas system. The fact

588
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 2: that Thatcher nationalized for water companies I think in eighty

589
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: four than British Gas in eighty six, I think is

590
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 2: generally recognized as a disaster.

591
00:28:59,080 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: Now.

592
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 2: Whether you nation lies the grid, whether you nationalize energy

593
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: in terms of a retail and a Big six are

594
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 2: proposals that we're looking at at the moment As a

595
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 2: Green Party. I always want to answer questions really directly,

596
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 2: but we're also three years away from a general election

597
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 2: and energy in particular is highly unpredictable right now. But

598
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 2: we're having those conversations with experts right now in terms

599
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: of what the policy offers.

600
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: But you talked about the fact that the UK doesn't

601
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: manufacture very much. UK has been deindustrializing for decades now,

602
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: and yet in the energy transition there is going to

603
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: be much replacement and much new building that the UK

604
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: will have to do. Now, let's take the Clean Power Mission,

605
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: because that's the one place where we can see there's

606
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: progress being made by this government. One mission that you

607
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: agree with. Most of the goods that are being used

608
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: to build out the Clean Power Plan, which involves offshore

609
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: wind turbines, some solar panels, lots and lots of cables,

610
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: lots and lots of transformers. Almost all of that is imported.

611
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: A lot of it comes from China. Are you okay

612
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: that we are dependent on China for the cheapest way

613
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: of transitioning or do you want to build in the

614
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: UK and have a much more expensive energy transition.

615
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 2: Well, I reject the premise of a question, because actually,

616
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 2: if we built it in the UK and made sure

617
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 2: we were investing in manufacturing and investing in productivity of

618
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 2: the UK, this is a longer term name, we can't

619
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: do that tomorrow. Then of course that would be cheaper.

620
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: That would then create green jobs. And this is exactly

621
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 2: what I'm talking about when I talk about just transition,

622
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: moving towards making sure that if we're shutting oil and

623
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 2: gas industries down, or the steel industry for instance, we

624
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 2: can't just remove those industries and not have jobs for

625
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 2: people to go into. The key part, though, is that

626
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 2: those jobs are cod designed right now with the workers involved.

627
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 2: We can't turn to people later and say sorry, you've

628
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: lost your jobs, there's no job to go into. We

629
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: know these transitions need to have that need to happen.

630
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 2: So what the government should be doing right now is

631
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 2: sitting down with the workers, particularly the trade unions, and

632
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 2: looking at what those industries of the future look like.

633
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 2: There's one other thing I want to say, though, the

634
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 2: Clean Energy Mission in theory, I support it and there

635
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 2: are good moves. I cannot condemn enough the Rosebank oil field.

636
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 2: This is the oil and gas in the North Sea.

637
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: Now.

638
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 2: We don't know what the government's decision is going to

639
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 2: be yet, but the fact that they've not ruled it

640
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 2: out worries me deeply. For those who don't know, the

641
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 2: Rosebank oil field will have cumulative emissions of twenty eight

642
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,479
Speaker 2: of the lowest income countries around the world all put together,

643
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 2: this would be an absolute climate catastrophe. To extract oil

644
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: and gas from the North Sea. Now we know the

645
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 2: Reform Party in the Conservative Party are trying to push

646
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 2: the idea right now because of the energy crisis, that

647
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 2: we need to look at our own north sea oil.

648
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: This is geologically incoherent. We have extracted most of the

649
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 2: assets from that and ultimately what we're doing is kicking

650
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 2: the can down the road. So not only is it

651
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 2: bad for the climate crisis, it also doesn't make any

652
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 2: sense in terms of the amount of money we put

653
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 2: into fossil fuel subsidies, which aren't bringing money back into

654
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 2: our economy, but are just putting money into an industry

655
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: that needs to have its last days and we need

656
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: to be moving towards the just transition. And finally, when

657
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 2: we do extract that oil and gas, we're selling on

658
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 2: the international market anyway. So to come to your question,

659
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 2: it's not even benefiting this country. So we absolutely need

660
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 2: to say notes of a Roasbank coil Field and I

661
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 2: can't say that with enough clarity.

662
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: Let me come to Nazi. But before that, the manufacturing

663
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: point that you're making, you know, it is a popular

664
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,479
Speaker 1: view to say I'd love to bring manufacturing back to

665
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: the UK because it'll bring jobs, it'll bring dignity to

666
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: people's lives, it will create British made goods for British people.

667
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: Is the same thing that the Americans have been trying

668
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: to do. It's not working. Is there an example you

669
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: have of an industry or even a factory that the

670
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: UK has brought back to life that is now producing

671
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: goods that are competitive, that are cheaper than what's available

672
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: in the global market.

673
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: Well, I think Steele is the obvious one where we're

674
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 2: not getting it quite right, but we could get it

675
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 2: right if we invested in it in the way that

676
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 2: we need to. And in fact, I was at Port Talbot,

677
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 2: which is one of the big steel factors in Wales,

678
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks before it shut down. Now no

679
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: one knew it was going to shut down for certain,

680
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 2: but even being there for a few hours and having conversations,

681
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 2: it was very clear what we're about to happen. But

682
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: the government back then did absolutely nothing about it. And

683
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 2: then we had the Labor government and the Keir Starmer

684
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 2: stepped in and at one point it sounded like he

685
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 2: was going to move towards a system of steel nationalization,

686
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 2: which makes absolute sense both economically and also culturally and

687
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 2: socially for making sure that those towns and those cities

688
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 2: have purpose again in terms of the reindustrialization that has

689
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 2: been removed from them. And they stepped in with half measures.

690
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: Not enough has nearly been done, and again it just

691
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 2: seems thisss reluctance from the government. It's almost like they've

692
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 2: forgotten that government are there to do anything. Everything they

693
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: do is very light touch and they just kind of

694
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 2: want to step back and let the market sort it out.

695
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 2: But we've seen for decades the market has not sorted

696
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: it out, and particularly with a lot of these industries

697
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: that we're talking about, whether it's monopolies, that doesn't make

698
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 2: sense to allow the market to sort that out because

699
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 2: there's no choice anyway. So even if you're the biggest

700
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 2: free market liberal, the privatization of these industries doesn't make

701
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 2: any coherence sense with your philosophy. I'm less interested with

702
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: a philosophy, though I'm not an ideologue about this. I'm pragmatic.

703
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: I want to see cheaper bills for people, I want

704
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 2: to see a better industry, and I want to see

705
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: jobs for British people. And then the final thing, I

706
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 2: do accept that this is some of the language that

707
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 2: has come out of the United States, but this is

708
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 2: not a Britain first strategy. I still want to make

709
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: sure that we're trading with other partners, and there will

710
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: be some things in this country that we can't manufacture,

711
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 2: and particularly critical minerals, which is another environmental conversation about

712
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 2: making sure that we have supply chains that are much

713
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 2: more ethical that yes, will cost a little bit more

714
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 2: sometimes to make sure that they're ethical, but I think

715
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 2: that's a cost worth paying to make sure that we're

716
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 2: not dealing in child child labor or wage slavery. And

717
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 2: at the same time, though you can tackle that profit

718
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: margin by if you're manufacturing in the UK, you're bringing

719
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 2: a price down in another way. So actually what you're

720
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 2: effectively doing is making sure that you have a proper

721
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 2: economy that also has morality built into it too.

722
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: You know, many of the times that the limitations of

723
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: what this current government is doing, if it's going in

724
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: the direction of how you would see those policies go,

725
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: is the criticism that it's not enough. Now, we have

726
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: had many parties that have put on radical ideas that

727
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: if fully implemented, may actually work, but then they come

728
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: into power and they are not able to fully implement them.

729
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: So take the German Greens for example. For the first

730
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 1: time they came into power they were a coalition partner,

731
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 1: they made some moderations on things that they previously didn't

732
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 1: agree on, so nuclear weapons being one of them, for example,

733
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: and yet after one term in power they were booted out.

734
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: So what have you learned from the German Greens example

735
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: of any other example of a party with radical views

736
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 1: coming in to do a radical reform but then failing

737
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: to do it and then getting booted out. What is

738
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: it that you can do that will ensure that you

739
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: actually deliver on all the promises that you're making.

740
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 2: Well, the answer is partly in your question, because we

741
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 2: need to get rid of a word radical, because actually

742
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,280
Speaker 2: these policies are common sense. To pick up a conversation

743
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 2: we're just having. One of our Green MP's, Karla Daniel,

744
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 2: is putting forward a bill that's essentially saying, rather than

745
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 2: putting money into fossil fuel subsidies, we should transition those

746
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 2: billions of pounds and actually put them into the training

747
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 2: and skills of the workers of the future in green

748
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 2: energy and green industry. Now, the reason why that's important

749
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 2: is far too long in our British political discourse, but frankly,

750
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,479
Speaker 2: around the world, the cost of getting to net zero

751
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 2: and the cost of decarbonization has been pitted against the

752
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 2: cost of living and that's why we've often seen reactionary

753
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,879
Speaker 2: and particularly far right forces, but sometimes centrist forces kick

754
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 2: back action to tackle the climate crisis. But there was

755
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 2: a report out this week from the IPPR who talked about,

756
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 2: actually this has all been distorted often by a right

757
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 2: wing media. The vast majority of people in the country,

758
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 2: both in the UK, but actually this has been done

759
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,720
Speaker 2: globally as well, want to see action on the climate crisis.

760
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 2: They're worried about rising temperatures. They're worried about the effects

761
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 2: that will have for their family, their children and their grandchildren,

762
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 2: and they want to see a just transition. What they're

763
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 2: concerned about, and I share this concern, is that they

764
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,080
Speaker 2: don't want to pay the price of it if for polluters,

765
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 2: for big corporates aren't paying their fair share. So in

766
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 2: terms of how do we make sure that we're presenting

767
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 2: a vision and a plan that people can get behind

768
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: and support, I think it's about populism. Now, populism often

769
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 2: people walk away from because that's the language of Trump

770
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 2: and Farage, but I would say they absolutely aren't populous.

771
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 2: Populism is about the ninety nine percent, the vast majority,

772
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 2: the caring majority in this country, against the very, very

773
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 2: wealthy elite, the one percent, Nigel Ferrage and Donald Trump

774
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 2: literally come from a wealthy elite and look to protect

775
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 2: the interests and the wealth of a wealthy elite. What

776
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: I'm talking about is a populism that protects the ninety

777
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 2: nine percent. So I've said, and every decision will make

778
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 2: there'll always be three questions, and here are the three

779
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 2: key questions. How do we make life more affordable for everyone? Second,

780
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 2: how do we back via caring majority over the very

781
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: wealthy elite? And third, how do we protect our planet

782
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 2: for generations to come? And I think when you have

783
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,720
Speaker 2: these three questions as you're guiding star, what you're ultimately

784
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 2: making sure that you're doing there is not taking vested

785
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 2: interests from private healthcare, from oil and gas companies, from

786
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 2: arms trade companies, from gambling companies, all of which for labor.

787
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 2: Government have taken lots of money from, including four point

788
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 2: one million pounds from Quadratchhire Capital Asset Hedge Fund with

789
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 2: money invested in all of these awful industries. And actually,

790
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 2: what I'm looking to do, and the Green Party is

791
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 2: looking to do, is to have two vested interests to

792
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 2: protect people and protect the planet. And I think when

793
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 2: you make sure that you're guiding star. I'm not going

794
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 2: to pretend for a second it's easy. There will be

795
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 2: difficulties and there will be trade offs, but I think

796
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 2: that makes sure you keep communicating with a public in

797
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 2: a way that makes sense to them, and you lay

798
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 2: out the plan in a way that makes sense to them.

799
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 2: And the final thing I'd say is this, And this

800
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 2: is something one of my political heroes, or a Mandani

801
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: has said. I think he was quoting ed Cox, so

802
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 2: I'm quoting him quoting someone else. But if you agree

803
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 2: with me on seven out of ten things, great, let's

804
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 2: work together, let's make it happen. If you agree with

805
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 2: me on ten out of ten things, go see a

806
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 2: psychiatrist because that's weird. I don't need to agree with

807
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 2: the British public on everything. I think what we can

808
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 2: agree on, though, is as a climate crisis hurtling down

809
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 2: the track, an energy crisis which is pushing up our bills.

810
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,839
Speaker 2: Those are the results of political choices. We shouldn't trust

811
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 2: for people who have made those political choices. We should

812
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 2: trust people who are going to make different political choices

813
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 2: and a different plan. And that's how we're going to

814
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 2: make heype normal again.

815
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: But let's look at not see now because you talked

816
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 1: about the NOTZ from a different perspective, you've also talked

817
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: about nuclear power, and unlike typical green parties, it's not

818
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 1: that you oppose nuclear power. You just say it's more expensive.

819
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 1: It's an old technology is not getting any cheaper. We

820
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: should find alternatives that we have to build it out well.

821
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: In the power system, which is going to be the

822
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: thing that in a net zero world will be the

823
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 1: primary energy source for the UK. You're going to need

824
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,879
Speaker 1: a power system that has not just lots of clean

825
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: renewables that are intermittent, but also baseload power that would

826
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: allow you to have electricity all the time. Nuclear does

827
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:52,720
Speaker 1: that job a little bit right now. If you don't

828
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: invest in nuclear, you start to lose nuclear in that mix.

829
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 1: What will that be replaced by? Currently? The only option

830
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: is as if you say batteries, well, batteries can do

831
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: some of your job, but they can't deal with the

832
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: seasonal variations that the UK sees. We have really cool winters,

833
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: we have you know, mild summers and maybe heating summers

834
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: now with people getting air conditioners, that kind of variation

835
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 1: is one that has to be dealt with with the

836
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: baseload power. So if nuclear isn't the answer, batteries cannot

837
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: solve the problem. We are left with gas. If that

838
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: gas doesn't come from the NOTZA, it will come from

839
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: the LNG market. That LNG market, as we've seen in

840
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: the Russia Ukraine crisis in the current crisis, is making

841
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: power prices very volatile. So how are you going to

842
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: build a power system, a clean power system that works.

843
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 2: I totally disagree. So the bit I agree on is

844
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 2: that we do need baseline power. That's you know, that's

845
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 2: just science. Batteries are getting battery in better, so I

846
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 2: think we clearly need a lot of investment in batteries.

847
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 2: But also we need to look at renewables, at wind

848
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 2: and sol And now people will say it doesn't you

849
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 2: have wind doesn't blow all the time send us China

850
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 2: all the time. Absolutely true, but they are intermittent, so

851
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 2: we know we can predict when these things are going

852
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 2: to happen. And that along with technology around demand supply,

853
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 2: about making sure that we're connecting community energy. There's lots

854
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 2: of ways to do that. No one's talking about eliminating

855
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 2: nuclear right now. Altogether, there is a moment for a

856
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: transition here but also we know we have interconnectors we

857
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 2: can connect so we can import the wind power and

858
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 2: the solar panel from other countries to like France and

859
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 2: Spain and Germany. And again I think there's a way

860
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: of doing this where you're connecting a lot of the

861
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,280
Speaker 2: ways of producing energy in a way that connects everything.

862
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 2: And community energy is highly highly important. Now it can

863
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 2: sometimes sound hyperbolic to say that I think community energy

864
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 2: is part of tackling fascism, and I want to say

865
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 2: exactly what I mean by that. I think one of

866
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:48,839
Speaker 2: the reasons we're seeing the rise of the far right

867
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 2: in our communities or some of our communities, is because

868
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 2: people feel, in fact, they don't just feel they know

869
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 2: that politics is being done to them rather than with them.

870
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 2: People feel like they're not involved in decisions, money is

871
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 2: being spent, and they feel like their communities are disintegrating,

872
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 2: that they're being afraid at the edges. And actually, what

873
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 2: community power gives us the opportunities to do is make

874
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 2: sure that when solar energy is in their community, in

875
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 2: the community energy, and then actually they can make money

876
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 2: off that that can go back into the grid, and

877
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 2: with that money they can be then spending it on

878
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 2: the community. We could have participatory democracy where those communities,

879
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 2: along with the town council or their local MP, decide

880
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 2: how that money is being spent in their area. I

881
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 2: think that's a way of bringing communities together. Now, so

882
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 2: I'm not being utopian and idealistic. Does that mean the

883
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 2: laws agree all the time? Does that solve everything? No,

884
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 2: it doesn't. But I think we need to be looking

885
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 2: at a principle of subsidiarity, which is that power should

886
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 2: be at the most local level. It can be. Now

887
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 2: that's power, both democratic power, but also energy power too.

888
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 2: And the problem with nuclear and these huge infrastructure projects

889
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 2: is that does the opposite. It puts for power in

890
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 2: big cooperation of the infrastructure whoever's built it with community energy.

891
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 2: What you're doing is spreading that power around the community

892
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 2: so people are actively involved. Is one size fit soul

893
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 2: solution here. No, any politician he tells you they have

894
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 2: the answers of increasing problems of the world, whether it's Trump, wars, energy,

895
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 2: is lying to you. But also it's never going to

896
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 2: be one answer. It's about recognizing we need to do

897
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 2: what works. We need to have all of these options

898
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 2: on a basket, and we need to make sure that

899
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 2: we're investing in the future, making sure that we're putting

900
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 2: people in the communities.

901
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: First, we've talked about many crazies today, you know, from

902
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 1: the political right, is the geopolitical crisis to the climate crisis.

903
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,720
Speaker 1: One that is on the horizon that many are worried

904
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: about is AI. You didn't bring up AI in your

905
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: Economics Foundation speech. There are legitimate views that AI could

906
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 1: replace a good chunk of workers today. Maybe say twenty

907
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 1: percent of the workers are replace not the extreme fifty

908
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,800
Speaker 1: or sixty percent some claim might happen, but twenty percent

909
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 1: of the workers are replaced. How do you ensure in

910
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 1: a world where technology is creating winners and losers that

911
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 1: you look after the losers. Where that EI's benefits are

912
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: going to go to cooperations, how is the government going

913
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 1: to be able to bear the cost of being able

914
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,439
Speaker 1: to protect the people who lose their jobs.

915
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and their AI is a nuanced conversation because there

916
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 2: are opportunities and benefits here. And I don't think anyone

917
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,720
Speaker 2: should be a philistine about technology. There's lots of examples

918
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 2: where technology has improved people's lives, made us more efficient

919
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 2: at work. So we're able to spend more time doing

920
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 2: the things we want to do. But the premise of

921
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: your question is entirely right. We need to make sure

922
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 2: that governments. I think about Peter Kyle, who's one of

923
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 2: the ministers in government, and when the government became the administration,

924
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 2: they said that they were going to work with creative

925
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 2: workers to help them to unionize to get better deals.

926
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 2: But actually what Peter Kyle did is went straight to

927
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 2: Amazon and some of the tech bros. And actually allowed

928
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 2: them to have the first deals, which meant that the

929
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,720
Speaker 2: Trade Union Congress for Trade Union of Workers Creative Workers

930
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 2: or who represents the union was understandably very mythed about

931
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 2: this and said you haven't protected workers in this at all.

932
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 2: The biggest issue, though, I think around AILE, one of

933
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 2: the biggest issues is around the planned data centers. We

934
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 2: know that they are incredibly energy consuming, They really eat

935
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 2: up energy. We also have a water scant tissue if

936
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 2: we want to add another crisis to the list, and

937
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 2: there's real issues around water in our cities, and then

938
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 2: we've got data centers being built that will consume some

939
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 2: of this water. They're often in residential areas where this

940
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 2: crisis will get worse and worse. So one thing I'm

941
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 2: arguing for right now is in planning law. Whenever a

942
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,240
Speaker 2: local town or city is going to put a data

943
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,399
Speaker 2: center into place, there needs to be a very clear

944
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 2: plan about how they're going to use the energy, so

945
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: particularly there's no waste energy and that energy can be

946
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 2: used for heating homes, but also how they're going to

947
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 2: tackle the water issue and make sure that that water

948
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 2: cannot be coming from a water supply that should be

949
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 2: going to people's homes, because it's quite obvious that's a

950
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 2: very necessary ingredient to survive existence. And so I'm really

951
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 2: worried about AI. I did briefly mention it in my speech.

952
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 2: It was just a couple of sentences, though, and that's

953
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 2: because it's an ongoing threat that's growing every single day.

954
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: And I think the biggest thing we need to be

955
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 2: doing is taking a step back in the zoom out

956
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 2: and saying, what does society need right now? What is

957
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 2: AI ready to provide that's going to be good and

958
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 2: going to have benefits? But yes, exactly is your question put?

959
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 2: How can we harness it to make sure that it

960
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 2: protects people and empowers communities rather than being an extractive

961
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 2: or exploitative element within our economy that is also disastrous

962
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 2: for climate.

963
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: One issue that's going to come up that has come

964
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: up government after government is fuel duty. The Committee on

965
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 1: Climate Change has said very clearly that it is good

966
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,760
Speaker 1: climate policy. It is a revenue raiser for the government.

967
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: It is something that government should do. And yet we've

968
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: had fuel duty fruzen year after year after depending. It

969
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: doesn't matter whether it's a conservative government or a liber goverment.

970
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: Now this libor government is set to increase fuel duty

971
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 1: in September. Do you support that policy?

972
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 2: I think fuel duty makes sense if you've invested in

973
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 2: public transport and if you make sure that there's alternatives

974
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 2: for people. There are rural communities in the UK that

975
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 2: I go visit where I say to them, is your

976
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 2: bus route every few hours? And they laugh and they

977
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 2: go it's every few days. If you have no other

978
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 2: option to get to work, to go see family, or

979
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 2: even just have a nice time with your mates, then

980
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,280
Speaker 2: it's not a surprise that people then jump in their vehicle.

981
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 2: So the government needs to do one of two things,

982
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 2: well sorry, two things at the same time. They need

983
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 2: to both bring in fuel duty as they're investing in

984
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,800
Speaker 2: public transport. But if you're not investing in public transport

985
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,760
Speaker 2: and making sure those routes are there, then it's utterly unfair.

986
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 2: It comes back again to when I was talking about populism.

987
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 2: It makes no sense at all to put this on

988
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 2: the backs of working people who people who are driving

989
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 2: their kids to school, are trying to get to work

990
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 2: at the same time as we're not taxing kerosene on

991
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 2: jet fuel, so people can take private jets and be

992
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,919
Speaker 2: paying less tax proportionally than someone who's driving their car

993
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,240
Speaker 2: because they need to. That's utterly unfair. So the conversation

994
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,919
Speaker 2: about fuel duty again is quite nuanced because actually there's

995
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 2: other measures we need to take at the same time.

996
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 2: I want to see the government invest in public transport.

997
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,399
Speaker 2: I want to see them ban private jets. I want

998
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 2: to see them tax jet fuel more and bring in

999
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 2: something like a frequent flyer levee. So if someone is

1000
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 2: having one flight a year for a holiday, or even

1001
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 2: two flights a year holiday, that might cost them less

1002
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 2: than it does now. If someone's flying several times a month,

1003
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 2: or even several times a week, then that should get

1004
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 2: more and more expensive because people should be paying the

1005
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 2: cost of their polluting activities. Ultimately, the principle always has

1006
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 2: to be the polluter pace.

1007
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: Now, let me end on what we started, which is

1008
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: that you have built in the Green Party something that

1009
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 1: is widely popular right now. It's popular with wide audiences,

1010
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: but particularly with the young people. And there is just

1011
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: a cross pollination of political ideas that happens around the globe.

1012
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 1: We get ideas from Europe, we get ideas from America,

1013
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: as we are seeing in the Reform Party. What is

1014
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: it that you would put the recipe for your success

1015
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: to be a popular leader on the left that you

1016
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: would give to somebody else who's looking to create a

1017
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: popular movement on the left.

1018
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you what people think it is, and

1019
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 2: they're wrong, and then I'll tell you what it really is.

1020
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,240
Speaker 2: People think that it's my social media or my communication style.

1021
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 2: And we saw this re Zora Mandani in New York

1022
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:00,840
Speaker 2: as well. He was undoubtedly a phenomen communicator and his

1023
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 2: social media is excellent. But if you don't have the

1024
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 2: policies to change people's lives, then what you're doing is

1025
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 2: pretty much what Reform and the Right are doing, which

1026
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,760
Speaker 2: is just slick kind of videos and nonsense. But Ultimately

1027
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 2: it will all come collapsing down with you because reality

1028
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 2: will pick up at some point. What the Green Party

1029
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 2: in the Left have had for a long time is

1030
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 2: really decent and excellent policies that will change people's lives,

1031
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 2: but often a really bad communication style where it's been

1032
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,720
Speaker 2: based in statistics and information, but there's been no narrative

1033
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 2: or story that can cite people or inspire people. I

1034
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 2: think what Zoran's done so well, and I'd like to

1035
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 2: think that I'm doing in the Green Party in England

1036
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 2: and Wales is combining the communication style, so telling a

1037
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 2: really clear story and communicating the plan in the way

1038
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 2: that people understand, and combining that with excellent policies. And

1039
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 2: the very final thing I'd say is every time people

1040
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 2: talk to me about the fact that people who are

1041
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 2: polled right now under fifties in the UK, the Green

1042
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 2: Party would come out top. We are number one by

1043
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 2: quite some way. But every time I talk about that,

1044
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:01,720
Speaker 2: lots of older people in the sixties, seventies, and indeed

1045
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 2: in the eighties and nineties say, please don't forget about us.

1046
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 2: We have been waiting for decades, all of our life

1047
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 2: for a Green government or for a leader of the

1048
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 2: left to come forward and say I'm ready to lower bills,

1049
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 2: protect our national health service, and rebuild our public services.

1050
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 2: That's exactly what the Green Party intend to do. And

1051
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 2: whether someone joined the Green Party a few years ago

1052
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 2: or whether they join after listening to this interview, su

1053
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 2: subtle hint there that I'm really excited because I think

1054
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 2: we need to bring our country back and we need

1055
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 2: to make Hope normal again. That's exactly why intended do.

1056
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 2: Thank you, Zach, thanks for having.

1057
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: Me, and thank you for listening to zero. If you'd

1058
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 1: like to watch the video version of this interview, you

1059
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 1: can find that on YouTube. Check the link in the

1060
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: show notes. Now for the sound of the week. That

1061
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 1: is the official announcement that cherry blossom season has begun

1062
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 1: in Tokyo. Officials from the Japanese Meteorological Agency inspect the

1063
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 1: same tree each year at a shrine in Tokyo to

1064
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: make this proclamation. The start of the cherry blossom season

1065
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: is made official when the tree has at least five

1066
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 1: open blossoms. This year's blossoms came five days earlier than

1067
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 1: the historical average. If you like this episode, please take

1068
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: a moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, YouTube,

1069
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,359
Speaker 1: and Spotify. This episode was produced by Oscar Boyd and

1070
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 1: Jessica Beck. The video version was edited by Meghan Olsen.

1071
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:33,320
Speaker 1: Our theme music is composed by Wonderly Special thanks to

1072
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:37,760
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg TV team Isabelle Thinkel, Olivia Rudgard, Lucy White,

1073
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:42,840
Speaker 1: Ellen Milligan, Soamersadi lur Milan, and Sharon chen i'm Akshatrati

1074
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 1: back soon