1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: Yes, a question. Do you guys like to answer? Question? 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:10,959 Speaker 1: For a while back, I visited my alma mater. I'm 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: talking about my first alma mater, Wood Acres Elementary School 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,319 Speaker 1: in Bethesda, Maryland. I am Mr Rock. I went to 5 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 1: this school. When I first came to Wood Acres in 6 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: the third grade, I wasn't Mo. I was Maurice Rocca Maurice, 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: a name which felt hopelessly out of style. I was 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: the only Maurice in the whole school. But maybe the 9 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: name has a better rep Now, Okay, I'm gonna ask 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: each of you question, and that's what I've come back 11 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: to find out. I started off slowly, though, asking about 12 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: other names which peaked long ago. When I say the 13 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: name Mildred, what do you think of um London? I 14 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: think of an old British person? Yeah, agreed me to. Okay, 15 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: what about what about the name thought an old lady? 16 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: That's fat? I agree? I agree, I agree here, I 17 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: must confess I get what they're saying. In the twenty 18 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: one century, names like Mildred and Bertha conture certain images. 19 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: Is it the is it the fun? I think that? Yeah? 20 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: Just all together? Yeah? What about the name Todd A 21 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 1: tall person that plays golf, kind of like um middle 22 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: age like in his forties, calf um brown hair. I 23 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: think they're kind of weird to finally I mustered the 24 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: courage to ask them about my name. What do you 25 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: think of the name Maurice? I think of like an 26 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: old French dude, like a young person who travels a lot. 27 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: Maybe doesn't have a home, on the run from the law. 28 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: Why is he Maybe he just kind of like stays 29 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: in hotels and just goes everywhere, like some like singer. 30 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: Maybe that's like they're not really known. Yeah, they're like 31 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: a local kind of person, but they still change, they 32 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: move a lot. I don't really not really known a 33 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,679 Speaker 1: local kind of person out But it turns out there 34 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: is a traveling singer named Maurice van Hoap, and Maurice 35 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: is also a portly frenchman in Disney's Beauty and the Beast. 36 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:40,959 Speaker 1: Help don't help me, I need to help, But the 37 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: name Maurice maybe permanently on the way out. We Maurice's 38 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: reached the height of our popularity in the nineteen twenties, 39 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: when there were an average of about sixteen hundred born annually. 40 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,839 Speaker 1: Now just a few hundred come into the world each year. 41 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: What makes a name rise and fall in the ranks? 42 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 1: It makes a name pretty in popular to one generation 43 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: and unique or downright ugly to the next. From CBS 44 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: Sunday Morning and I Heart, I'm Maurice Rocca and this 45 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: is mobituaries. This mobent the death of a name. I 46 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: knew a kid in elementary school named Jeff Heebner. He 47 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: was friendly, he was good at soccer, he was cool. 48 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: He could introduce himself with confidence because he was a Jeff. 49 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: He perfectly embodied his own name. I, on the other hand, 50 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: always felt awkward telling people my name. Maybe it was 51 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: because growing up I knew of only three other Maurice's. 52 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: There was children's book author Maurice Sendak, who wrote the 53 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: classic Where the Wild Things Are? They're was the Maurice 54 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: from that Steve Miller band song The Joker Speak, And 55 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: that was kind of cool. But that was canceled out 56 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: by French entertainer Maurice Chevalier. I'm a little girl of 57 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: five or six or seven. I can't rasister join yourself 58 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: that song he sang in Gigi Ken Folly, little girl. 59 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: I can't believe he hasn't been canceled for that, but 60 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: that was pretty much it. I was born Maurice Albert Rocca. 61 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: My mother tells me my father was the one who 62 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: really wanted to name me Maurice. She would have preferred Gabriel. 63 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: My father is no longer living, so I can't know 64 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: for sure, but I think he wanted something on the 65 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: gentler side, since Rocca can sound brusque. But I didn't 66 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,559 Speaker 1: like it. At one point, I thought maybe I should 67 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: go by al. I mean, which are being crazy? I mean, like, 68 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: when I think about it, I'm not crazy. It just 69 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: would it sounded sounded odd al Roca. I talked to 70 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: one of my former teachers about it. That day I 71 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: visited Wood Acres. Her name is Ms Vanisi, and she 72 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: was one of my all time favorites. She was patient, kind, 73 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: and impossibly glamorous. More about that in a bit. Turns 74 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: out she could have made a pretty decent therapist too. Now, 75 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: you said you didn't like your name, So were you 76 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: teased in school? You know? I don't know that I 77 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: was ever teased for my name. It just felt so different, 78 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: it felt foreign. Everything changed when I graduated from Wood 79 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: Acres to Pile Middle School, and oddly enough. It was 80 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: thanks to the aptly named Jeff Heebner. I know him, 81 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: I mean I remember him. He was very blond, very blond. 82 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 1: And when I went to Pile, it's kind of scary 83 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: all the elementary schools feeding into the big junior high 84 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,799 Speaker 1: and the fizzed teacher there and of the first days 85 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: did roll call and said, you know, when I get 86 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: to your name, if you have a name you prefer, 87 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: I got us. I'll write it in the in the book. 88 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: And then she said Maurice rock I said here, and 89 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: then Jeff Heepner said, he's not Maurice, He's Mo. And 90 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: that's kind of how I got my started. I was 91 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: going to ask you, so Jeff just came out with it, 92 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: and you preferred it, obviously. Yeah, I kind of liked that. 93 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: It was easy. Yeah, kind of popped. But now I 94 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: love when people call me Maurice. So you have to 95 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: call for this episode, I'm Maurice. I wasn't sure and 96 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: what just call you? Whether I should call you Maurice. 97 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: And if there's anyone who would understand this kind of 98 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: confusion over one's own name, it's miss Vanisi, Mildred Vanisi. 99 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: Despite what those kids said, earlier. Mildred Vanisi is not British, 100 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: but the granddaughter of Italian immigrants, and there was a 101 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: custom I doubt if it's still in existence, that the 102 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: firstborn I was the firstborn is named either for the father, 103 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,119 Speaker 1: mother by the father's father. Of course, depended upon the sex. 104 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: My grandmother's name was Camela, and I'm sure that my parents, 105 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: being first generation, wanted an anglicized name. Camela's were called Millie. 106 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: Millie is Mildred. Growing up, Ms Venisi didn't know any 107 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: other Mildred's and she didn't really like her name. Lucky 108 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: for her, she too got a nickname that eventually stuck. 109 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: Somewhere along the line. I started being called Millie. Not 110 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: by family, my mother and father. I was still Mildred, 111 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: but my generation, my friends started calling me that. My 112 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: sisters called me Millie, and so now I introduced myself 113 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: that way. It happened, just sort of happened. I think 114 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: the name Millie flows better. It's a little more musical 115 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: than Mildred. I just think Mildred is She's not thoroughly 116 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: modern Mildred and that wouldn't sound good. That just wouldn't 117 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: sound good. I also never thought Mildred was an appropriate 118 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: moniker for Miss Vanisi, with her luxuriant mane of dark 119 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: curly hair, her Jackie Oh sunglasses, her Georga's jeans or 120 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: were they Gloria Vanderbilt? Look? All I know is that 121 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: no other teacher looked like she just walked off the 122 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: setup and Aaron spelling nighttime soap. Honestly, Miss Vanisi was 123 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: so fabulous I could barely contain myself. I don't know 124 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: if you'll remember, so if you don't, it's kind of 125 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: like a confession. I guess. But I remember in fifth 126 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: grade waiting outside the All Purpose Room for lunch. But 127 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: when you walked by, I said, Hey, what shaken, Millie? 128 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: You wheeled around and and I think you said something like, 129 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: don't you ever call me that again? I Miss Vanisi? 130 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 1: I probably did, tim teacher. The name Mildred reached its 131 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: peak in n when more than eighteen thousand babies were 132 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 1: named Mildred. It was the sixth most popular girl's name 133 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: that year, popular enough that there are a number of 134 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: notable Mildred's throughout history. Mildred J. Hill was the composer 135 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: of Good Morning to All, the melody of which became 136 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: the Happy Birthday song. And then that movie Mildred Pierce 137 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: with Jeremy Crawford that must have been in the forties. 138 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: Now I'm sure of one thing, at least, I want 139 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: my daughter back. Mildred Giller's an American who broadcast Nazi 140 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: propaganda from Germany during World War Two, also known as 141 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 1: Axis Sally. She was indicted after the war and charged 142 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: with trees and Okay, so that's not a good Mildred. 143 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: That's not a good Mildred. But I think I've heard 144 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: of access Sally. But after hitting its popularity peak in 145 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: the early twentieth century, Mildred slowly slid down the list 146 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: of the thousand most popular names. In only eighty three 147 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: newborn girls were named Mildred in the US. Recent users 148 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: on one baby naming website dismissed the name as sounding 149 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: too much like Mildew wrote another makes me think of 150 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: dreading something I was the only milled with in all 151 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: my years at school. There was a period of time 152 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: when a lot of girls were named Karen, and there 153 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 1: was another period of time or a lot of girls 154 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: named Janet. I don't know, but I just think that 155 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: names have cycles, and maybe something triggers it. She so 156 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: often was when I was growing up. Mildred Venisi is 157 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: right coming up. I'm going to talk with linguistic John 158 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: mcwardur about what makes names pretty, prickly or popular. But 159 00:10:55,160 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 1: first in memorium for another name that left us, Hortense. 160 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: We hardly knew you despite your French origins. Your name 161 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: lacked the crisp, bright bubbliness of champagne and the addictive 162 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: qualities of your country's cheeses. Disney must have had a 163 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: thing for you, because Hortense mcdock is Donald Duck's mother. 164 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: Donald gets an ostrich named Hortense, and his uncle Scrooge 165 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: McDuck named his horse Hortense. Alas, Disney was never going 166 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: to create a princess Hortense as a name. You're just 167 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: not pretty. You barely cracked the top four hundred names 168 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: in the US around the turn of the twentieth century, 169 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: and you slid off the top one thousand after Now, 170 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: Ordensia does have a nice ring to it. It's the 171 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: Spanish version of Hortense or Dnsia also means Hydraine job. 172 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: To be clear, I'm not suggesting anyone named their daughter 173 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: Hydraine jaw Hortense. You are strictly a past, tense, gone, 174 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: and yes forgotten. To understand better why names come and go, 175 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: I talked with an expert, Columbia University Associate Professor of 176 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: Comparative Literature and linguished John mcwardo, How did you become 177 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: a John? I'm John Hamilton's mcwardo the fifth and John 178 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: Hamilton mcquarter the first was a slave. So I was 179 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: named because of that relentless succession and the idea that 180 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: you don't break it. And as a matter of fact, 181 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: I know if my father hadn't been John Hamilton quarter 182 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: the fourth, I would be named Bruce. That's what my 183 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: mother would have chosen. And I would have named my 184 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: son John, except he's a girl, and so the name 185 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: had to stop with my two girls. So she has 186 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: my middle name Johnna. In Italian, you've had Johnny and 187 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: Jihanna in English Johnette, none of them. That just sounds 188 00:12:55,400 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: like a tiny little bathroom. We live in an efficiency. 189 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: We only have room for a John. A. Mcward was 190 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: born in n when John was the second most popular 191 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: name in the country, and the name John isn't going away. 192 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: It's still in the top thirty names for boys in 193 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: the US. But if you go back in time to 194 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: the early twentieth century, John was far and away the 195 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: number one boy's name. America was producing John's in mass quantities. 196 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: It was like the model t of names. In fact, 197 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: if you were born in that era, it was really 198 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: common for you to have a name that was in 199 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: the top ten. People just seemed to want to fit in. 200 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: You go back to that time and there is a 201 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: sense of what a normal American person is that would 202 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: strike us today as almost bizarrely homogeneous. And that's not 203 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: to say that there weren't some ripples going on around 204 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: the edges, but there was a certain sense that America was, 205 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: you know, turkey and apple pie, and that's what one was. 206 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: One was very, very very white. Well that's so interesting 207 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: because aren't that those are competing impulses, right. I want 208 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: my child to have a name that makes him or 209 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: her special. I also want my child to have a 210 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: name that makes him or her fit in and and 211 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: so and back then no special. I mean, if you 212 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: think of somebody naming their child in eighteen sixty five, 213 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: most people did not want something that would make the 214 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: child feel special, or it would be something going on 215 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: with the middle name, something that was less known, you 216 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: might play with it. Even when I was in school 217 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: in the seventies and eighties, I remember the popular names 218 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: were really popular. I mean in junior high I was 219 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: drowning in Jennifer's. Oh, they were everywhere. That's right. What 220 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,239 Speaker 1: was going on? Jennifer? And that's right, there's so many Jennifers. 221 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: It's just it was a tsunami of them school Jennifers. 222 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: But the days of a few names dominating are over. 223 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: At its peak, a full five percent of all newborn 224 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: male babies were named John one in twenty Fast forward 225 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: to and the top names for females and males, Olivia 226 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: and Liam, made up only around one percent of babies 227 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: born that year. In other words, the most popular names 228 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: are less popular. Parents today shoot for originality. There's a 229 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: sense that if you're going to name a child, you 230 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: spontaneously reach out and you think, how can we have 231 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: a little bit of fun with this, and you don't 232 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: want to torture your child. I once knew this poor 233 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: little boy. His parents had named him Rotunda Thanksgiving Jones, 234 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: and it was because he was born when John F. 235 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: Kennedy was laid out in the rotunda and they named 236 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: him Thanksgiving just because, and of course he was made 237 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: fun of. It sounds like a song and I've forgotten 238 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: Gershwin musical because therefore sounds like that Rotunda Thanksgiving you 239 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: can and this guy really had made and so it 240 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: was a tragic thing. But you want your child to 241 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: be somewhat different, probably not too different, but I think 242 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: most people think not the average thing, unless it's named 243 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: after a grandparent or a father or something like that. 244 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: John mcwarter says that trend towards uniqueness and away from 245 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: uniformity tracks with broader changes in American society. I think 246 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: it's very much a spirit of individuality, and of course 247 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: many people would say that the spirit of individuality is 248 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: part of what being an American is. But there's an 249 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: extreme that happens, and I think it happens after the 250 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties with the sense of what was called the 251 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: Me generation in the seventies, and then the greater respect 252 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: for and awareness of the diversity of American nous is 253 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: that you get that really becomes default starting in the eighties. 254 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: That's when a certain browning of the culture happens. Think 255 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: about four is when the Cosby Show becomes a big hit. 256 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: Vanessa Williams becomes the first black Miss America and Miss America. 257 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: Beverly Hills Cop is almost the biggest selling movie in 258 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 1: the country. You know, this is the clinnest and nicest 259 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: police car I've ever been in my life. That's and 260 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: that's just black diversity. I think we become much more 261 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: comfortable with America not just being my three sons starting 262 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties. As a part of that change, 263 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 1: there's a shift in naming traditions, especially among Black Americans. 264 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: Eight is a particularly interesting year for naming kids. That year, 265 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: sixty of black girls are given a unique name, one 266 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: that no one else has. Mcward points out that after 267 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: the Civil rights movement of the nineteen sixties, afrocentrism gained 268 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: traction in the seventies and eighties. So once you get 269 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: past integration as the watch cry, and there's a certain 270 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: kind of in some ways healthy separatism that's afoot, then 271 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: it becomes natural to be comfortable making up a name. 272 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: And so what happens, frankly is I've often thought that 273 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 1: black girls in particular tend to have more interesting names 274 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 1: because it's considered okay to just make it up and 275 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: what you get are all of these beautiful African style 276 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: names for people born in the United States. And it's 277 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: all rather pretty, but it really explodes, especially with the 278 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: sense of Africa and the African heritage rising in the 279 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies. That's when you get little girls named Mikiba. Well, 280 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to impress you right now and tell you, 281 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: and I'm sorry if it sounds boastful. In college, I 282 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: was in a production of a Little Shop of Horrors 283 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: with Katangi Brown now Jackson, I would Seymour, thank you 284 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: very much. She one of she was run at and 285 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: she was fantastic. She was fantastically Yeah, and she yea Crystal. 286 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: I'm suddenly forgetting glass of one's name. But anyway, she 287 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: was gonna into improv comedy together. But her name, I 288 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: know you've written about improv. Wow, she thinks really funny? 289 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: Is she funny? She is? I'm telling you we will 290 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: because we are going to make sure that hearings are now, 291 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: you know, simulcast on Comedy Central. I think she's that funny. 292 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: I want to know that about her. Yeah, that's a 293 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: perfect example that her name is Katanji. If she were 294 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 1: a generation older, her name would probably be Caroline, but 295 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: now it is Katanji Brown Jackson, and that's ordinary starting 296 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: especially with women of her generation. It's nice to see. 297 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: I mean, Katanji is a much more interesting name than Caroline. 298 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: But one group of people, we expect original names from celebrities. 299 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: It's practically a rite of passage. The first time I 300 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 1: can remember this happening is in two thousand four, when 301 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin named their daughter Apple. At 302 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: the time it was weird. Now totally normal. Kylie Jenner 303 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: has a daughter named Stormy, and it's not it's not 304 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: with a y, it's with an eye at the end. 305 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: And Elon Musk has one that can pronounce it's a 306 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 1: bunch of symbols. I think by the way I looked 307 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: it up, it's pronounced x ash a twelve. All of 308 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: that is because they are public figures, and so for them, 309 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: naming is a public act. And if it's going to 310 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: be a public act, then you want to do something 311 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: that's gonna stand out rather than something that's gonna bore people. 312 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 1: If somebody, like when Paltrow sets off a tradition, next thing, 313 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: you know, everybody's doing it. So it's sort of a 314 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: celebrity contagion. And I think I would put it just 315 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: that way. What Jay Z and Beyonce blew Ivy. That's 316 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: really beautiful, but it's not African. It's not the usual tradition. 317 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: That's something they came up with all by themselves as 318 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: people who knew that everybody was watching them having that child. 319 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: So that's where you get that tradition, and that seems 320 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: to actually cut across races with celebrities too. Yeah, it's 321 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: it's a show, it's a it's a kind of display. 322 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: And I don't mean that in a bad way. Most 323 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: parents aren't going to resort to naming their kids after 324 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: a combination of math, Aircraft, and Elvin symbols representing artificial intelligence, 325 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: which is what Musk's baby's name represents. But throughout history, 326 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: parents have often taken naming cues from pop culture. Well, 327 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to quiz you on it right now. Actually 328 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: it's really fun, so I'll start off really easy. Shirley 329 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 1: saw a dramatic spike between five because of of Little 330 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: Shirley Temple, And if you think about it, nobody is 331 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: named Shirley before then, and then all of a sudden. 332 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: Everybody's grandmother is named Shirley by the late twentieth century, 333 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: and now the name is impossible, Meet little Shirley. Never 334 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: Michelle entered the top twenty in nineteen sixty five, because 335 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: that was the same year. It has to be because 336 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:58,719 Speaker 1: of that song, the Beatles song nobody is named Michelle. 337 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: Maybe in Frances you're just kind of guessing, but not here, 338 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: I mean new Michelle's. We've got a lot of Michelle's 339 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 1: running around, women named Michelle women, but not here, not 340 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: before then. What you're saying like, there's no first lady 341 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: named Michelle, And if you think about it, there was 342 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: a first lady to Michelle. Good point right, only only 343 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: after and she's named around that time. Michelle Polk. No 344 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: Michelle Quinciata, no suffragette named Michelle. You know that's that's right, 345 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: it's Michelle kt S. The name Layla first appeared in 346 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: the top one thousand in nineteen seventy two. No, why 347 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 1: that Eric Clapton song. Yeah, I'm not as good at 348 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: modern pop. It's fine. I love that you and I 349 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: have the same definition of modern pop. Nineteen seventy two. 350 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: Everything ends. This is a strict question. Rosanna shot up 351 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 1: in two because of that Toto song. Right. Yes, I 352 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: interviewed Patricia Arquat that song was named after her sister, 353 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: also an actress. But Patricia pointed out to me that 354 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: her sister's name is really pronounced Rosanna Rosanna Arquette, and 355 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: I'm so they got the pronunciation of her name wrong. 356 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan, do solemnly swear I, Ronald Reagan, do solemnly 357 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: swear that I will faithfully execute the office of President 358 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: of the United States that iowa faith After Reagan became 359 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: president in the eighties, the name Reagan not not Ronald 360 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: as much, but the name Reagan surged in popularity, landing 361 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 1: in the top one hundred by two thousand twelve. Now 362 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: here's what I think is fascinating is that Republican parents 363 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: were more likely to pick the name Reagan for their 364 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 1: kid if they lived in a district that was purple, 365 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: that was that was sort of evenly split between Democrats 366 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 1: and Republicans. Then make a statement exactly, then, if they 367 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: weren't a deep red Republican enclave, right, then they don't 368 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: need to stand out, they don't need to stake their 369 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: individuality exactly, And of course they weren't thinking of this consciously. 370 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 1: So much goes on subconsciously. I doubt any of those 371 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: families said so many people around here vote Democratic, that 372 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: let's name her Reagan. It was just part of the 373 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: warp and wolf of their psychology because of sensing themselves 374 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 1: as a minority or as not more than half of 375 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: their district. Well, that's fascinating. Yeah. And if you're in 376 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: a purple district and you name your kid Reagan, do 377 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: you plant the kid on the front lawn during election time? 378 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: That's right, mommy? How long do I understand here? Spend 379 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: some time with the Social Security Administration's baby named database, 380 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: and you'll see a sort of pendulum swing over the 381 00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: last century, especially among girls. Half of the most popular 382 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 1: girls names started with vowels in the eighteen eighties. Then 383 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: we're all consonants. By nifty Anna and Emma became Patricia 384 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: and Deborah. Now vowels are back in a big way. 385 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: It makes you wonder why. Certainly, in terms of how 386 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: we perceive beauty, at least in English and in related languages, 387 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: vowels are beautiful because they involve no obstruction of the airflow. 388 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: Stop sounds such as put cut, but those are the 389 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: ugliest sounds because you have to stop. Those are the 390 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,479 Speaker 1: ones that you're calling the jabbing sounds. Then there's everything 391 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: in between, so you get a buzz at least you 392 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: get a hiss, and then with yeah, whollo. Those might 393 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: as well be vowels. So having more vowels now could 394 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: have something to do with people looking for a certain 395 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: mallifluous nous in names now why people would have valued 396 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 1: it more during the McKinley administration than during the cool 397 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: edge administer straation. I have no idea. I get the 398 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 1: feeling that is random statistical flutter. Mick Warter says that 399 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: over time, fashions change gradually, and something you once found 400 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: repellent you now find irresistible. You know how today, if 401 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 1: you have a dinner party every every second time you 402 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: have Brussels sprouts, probably with bacon or something like that, 403 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: imagine how unthinkable that was. Say, even as recently as 404 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: twenty five years ago, you didn't give people you liked 405 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 1: brussel sprous, did not russell sprouts or were synonymous with 406 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: something that was basical torture. Torture, Yeah, I mean little cabbages. 407 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,440 Speaker 1: They sucked, and so you wouldn't give them to anybody, 408 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: And you don't even have to dress them up that much. 409 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 1: Now we're used to them. That's partly fashioned. I don't 410 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: think that the Brussels Sprouts lobby created this. Sometime early 411 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: in the George W. Bush administration. One recent trend boys 412 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: names ending in a certain consonant. What is this with 413 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: all these boys today? Baby boys having an end at 414 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: the end of their names. So we've got all these 415 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 1: logans Mason's, Ethan's, Jackson's. We subconsciously associate that un with 416 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: a kind of a gracious masculinity. It's what you want 417 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: to name your little boy, as opposed to Jack, which 418 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: is a severe Jack as might be a bully. Yeah, 419 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 1: not only old fashioned, but Jack Jack's people up. You know, 420 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 1: Ethan has conversations. You imagine Ethan is open to change, 421 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: like right, right, he reasons right, Ethan reasons as opposed 422 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: to Jack, who just sits yeah. But even names that 423 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 1: hit that right mix of vowels and and just right, 424 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: ones that are pined after in song or become famous 425 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 1: in the names of movie characters or the actors who 426 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: played them, well, just like we as a society can 427 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: birth the name. We can also let it die. But 428 00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: first another in memorium for Sid Stay and Irv sigh, 429 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: Shelley and Morty. No, they weren't the original waite staff 430 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: at the Carnegie Deli. In the late eighteen hundreds, Sydney, Stanley, Irving, Seymour, Sheldon, 431 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: and Morton were all popular baby boy names with WASP 432 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 1: that is, White Anglo Saxon Protestant parents. Then in the 433 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: late nineteen twenties, many American Jewish parents began choosing these 434 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: names for their baby boys to help them fit in. 435 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 1: But America's wasps apparently felt stung and took flight from 436 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 1: these names. Soon enough, Sydney, Stanley, Irving, Seymour, Sheldon, and 437 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: Morton were seen as stereotypically Jewish and their assimilation value 438 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: greatly diminished, as documented by sociologist Stanley Lieberson, American Jews 439 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: eventually abandoned the names as well. Incidentally, another name in 440 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: that category was Morris, a sort of cousin to Maurice. 441 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: But at least Morris was the name of a terrifically 442 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: drolled tabby who used to sell cat food on TV commercials. 443 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: Nine Lives Seafood Pladder anchors away pop culture and big 444 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: news events can correlate with names surging, even when those 445 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: events are disasters. After Hurricane Katrina, names that began with 446 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: the letter K actually jumped by nine according to an 447 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: analysis by professors at Wharton Business School. The sheer repetition 448 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: of the name Katrina, it seems, had a subliminal effect 449 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: that K sound got stuck in people's heads. But the 450 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: name Katrina itself, well, Katrina had been a pretty popular 451 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: name and even broke the top one hundred for a 452 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: while in the late seventies and eighties. After the storm, though, 453 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: the name quickly fell out of fashion and in dropped 454 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: out of the top one thousand entirely. Indeed, history can 455 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: be a name killer as well. The name Isis saw 456 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: a burst of popularity in the early nineteen seventies thanks 457 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: to a Saturday Morning superhero of the same name and 458 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: found she was heir to the sacreds of Isis, and 459 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: so it has since fallen out of favor with the 460 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: rise of the Islamic State, which I find reassuring. But 461 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: Bertha toppled from a much greater height in mother's birth 462 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: to more than five thousand. Bertha's try saying that five 463 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: times fast so what happened to Bertha. Well, Bertha was 464 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: the name of a German heiress to crup a G 465 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: a German weapons manufacturer, and during World War One the 466 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: company began making heavy guns. Those guns were dubbed Big 467 00:30:54,160 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: Bertha's by the Germans. The Allies then learn to this nickname, 468 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: that it was being called the big Bertha, and they 469 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: began using it for all heavy artillery, so it suddenly 470 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: became synonymous with big heavy, portly. Right, yeah, so next 471 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: thing you know Bertha is overweight? Is it's associated with 472 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: being large. That's linguistic John mcwardour again, But is there 473 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: also something about just the sound of it birth thought? 474 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: I mean, is it I'm thinking of girth birth. The 475 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,719 Speaker 1: error is not pretty because it's not as open as 476 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: other vowel sounds. Is a little unpleasant, and it begins 477 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: with a stop consonant. But er I mean it's it's 478 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: nasty in that way. But then, especially just because it 479 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: was associated with something that was portly. I work with 480 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: a woman who was telling me about a person in 481 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: her neighborhood that she doesn't like, and she said, ah, 482 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: I cut her a wide berth, and it's a wide 483 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: birth right. I never thought about that, And you wonder 484 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: why that expression catches on. Yeah, boy, I wonder what 485 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: it would take for Bertha to come back. Hi, Bertha, 486 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: I don't see it. After World War One, Bertha faded 487 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: into obscurity and was off the top one thousand list 488 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,479 Speaker 1: by the mid nineteen eighties. But a name doesn't have 489 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: to become synonymous with military weaponry or get added to 490 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: a terrorist watch list to fade. Sometimes names just wear out. 491 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: They fall out of the rotation in the same way 492 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: you'll find a shirt that you really like and it 493 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: still fits, and it's in your closet and you haven't 494 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: worn it for five years for no real reason. A 495 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: name with ugly sounds can last almost a counterintuitively long time. 496 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: For example, Richard, what an ugly name that is? And 497 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: think about how much uglier the nickname is, and how 498 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: there were, until about ten minutes ago, normal male people 499 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: running around in Anglophone America named Dick and nobody battered 500 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: to nine. It wasn't only Dick sartin Dick York. I 501 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: knew a Dick back in the eighties has anything to 502 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: do with the wet That's right. It's Dick Lincoln and 503 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: he was taken seriously as an executive. Only with the 504 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: past generation or two has that stopped. And not only 505 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: is dick ridiculous? And dick was used to mean what 506 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: it meant long before it went out, But dick is 507 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: an ugly word by these standards. Composer Cole Porter would 508 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: beg to Differry Todd. One of the other names I've 509 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: been pondering is Todd. Todd showed up in the thirties 510 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: and just grew and grew. We hit Peeke Todd in 511 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: X four. More than fifteen thousand were born that year. 512 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: I used to know tons of Todd's, but now I 513 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: haven't met a baby Todd in decades. What do you 514 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: think the appeal was in the first place. I think 515 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: it's partly because ah is the most basic sound and humanity. 516 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: It's the first sound that babies make. And then with Todd, 517 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: what you have is a kind of a nice assonance, 518 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: as it were, because too and du are the same 519 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: sound but different. DU is too with a little bit 520 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 1: of belly in it, so you don't have to make 521 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: a change. There was something pleasant about Todd. Todd was 522 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: like a little white potato. That's one of those little 523 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: balls and it's boiled just right. That's Todd like a 524 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: tater todd Um. Yes, I guess it would have to 525 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: be deepride as well as Todd and a lovely woman 526 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 1: named Millie with a hairnet giving it to you personally. 527 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: I like Todd, and I brought in one of my 528 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: favorite Todds to defend his name, Todd Bridges. Todd Bridges 529 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: was born in Nive, just one year after Peque Todd, 530 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: and when he was a teenager, he got a starring 531 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: role in the hit TV show Different Strokes as Willis Jackson, 532 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: opposite Gary Coleman as Arnold. Yeah, Phyllis isn't bad. Why 533 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 1: don't you ask about Arnold? Are you chiding starter? She 534 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 1: doesn't even know me. My mom said that she dreamed 535 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: my name because there's not very many black Todds. I 536 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: don't know if you know that or not, but there isn't. 537 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: I think I know Todd Gurley, the football player, and 538 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: that's about it. I don't think I know anybody else 539 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: named Todd. That's right. Even though Todd was near its 540 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: peak when Bridges was born, it was indeed as white 541 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: as those potatoes. And I'll tell you what what what happened, 542 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: which is really funny. One time I got to check 543 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: somewhere that I was living at and it said Todd 544 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: Bridgies and I'm looking, I don't know of his company, 545 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: and it's for a couple of thousand nolls. I'm like, 546 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: I don't know. Let's say this is not me. So 547 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: what happened was the postman thought it was me and 548 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: it was an address down the street. And I went 549 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: down the street and bringing the bell and I go, hey, man, 550 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: is there a Todd Bridges. He goes, yeah, it's me, 551 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,479 Speaker 1: and he goes, oh, hey Todd. I go, hey Todd, 552 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: and I gave him it was his This there's another 553 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: Todd Bridge right down the street. It was right down 554 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: the street when I used to live in Yeah, another 555 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,240 Speaker 1: guy was a white guy. That's kind of crazy. People 556 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: get their names made fun of for all sorts of reasons. 557 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:12,800 Speaker 1: Is there anything you can do with Todd? Will you 558 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: ever teased? Well? A lot of people thought that Todd 559 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: was short for Theodore, but I'm like, no, that's Ted. 560 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: That's shut for Theodore. Todd is just Todd. Then in 561 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,760 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies, Todd fell off the baby naming Cliff 562 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,439 Speaker 1: Oh man Todd fell off the map. Dang. In two 563 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: thousand fifteen, there were only two hundred and twelve baby 564 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: boys named Todd. And did you ever consider naming any 565 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: of your children Todd? No? No, I named my son Spencer, 566 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: but I spell it differently. Okay, we I mean we 567 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 1: spell his sp n C I R. Now why did 568 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: you do that? We just thought it making this original 569 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: because Spencer is out there and it's you know, sp 570 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: and c R, and we just wanted to make it original. 571 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: And it's original Spencer, It totally is. George Carlin had 572 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: a whole bit a routine in two thousand one where 573 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: he actually made fun of the name Todd. He made 574 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: fun of a number of I didn't see that. What 575 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: he what do he say? And I'm getting really sick 576 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 1: of guy's name Todd. You know, yeah, it's just a 577 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: goofy it's a goofy fucking name. Okay, Hi, what's your name? Todd? 578 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: Is he still around? That? He is not still around? 579 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: But great, stand he is lucky because I have to 580 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,840 Speaker 1: go choke him out mess with my name. It's not 581 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: a goofy name. It's a cool name. It's Todd. We 582 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: end this episode with a nod to Western civilization's earliest 583 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: baby naming book, the Bible. From Adam and Eve to 584 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: Ahab and Jezebel, there are well over a thousand different 585 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 1: names mentioned between the Hebrew Bible and Christian New Testament. 586 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: People have been blessing and sometimes saddling their kids with 587 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 1: the names of patriarchs and prophets, matriarchs and magi for 588 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: over a thousand years. The most recently popular baby names 589 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 1: in the US have included Jonah, Elijah, Naomi, and Noah. 590 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,359 Speaker 1: I was surprised to see that even the name Lazarus 591 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: has risen from the dead. Of course, not every biblical 592 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 1: name is heaven sent. Judas. If we ignore your history 593 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: for a second, you're not terrible, your spelling makes sense, 594 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: and you have no off putting hard consonants. Then again, 595 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,399 Speaker 1: your behavior towards Jesus was more than off putting. Your 596 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:54,359 Speaker 1: name has been permanently shunned. Earlier biblical outcasts haven't fared 597 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 1: much better. Sure, there were three hundred Canes born in 598 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: but nearly times as many ables were born that year. 599 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: It doesn't pay to kill your brother. Jesus, of course, 600 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 1: is a popular name, especially as Jesus, but Judas. I 601 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 1: don't see you ever cracking the top one thousand. Come here, 602 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 1: little Judas. Yeah, they're more than time for friendless, dateless 603 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: little boy. Esther and Ruth your solid names, if not 604 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: always easy to say. Hey, Esther, meet me at Ruth's 605 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: Chris Steak House. You're the only two women with books 606 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,320 Speaker 1: of the Bible named after you. But after the nineteen thirties, 607 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 1: your name's made a quick exodus. Yet history shows us 608 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 1: that most names are cyclical. What's old, sometimes very old 609 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 1: is new again. Indeed, Genesis, the very first book of 610 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: the Bible, has seen a surge in popularity as a 611 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: first name since the nineteen nineties. P s. If you 612 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,799 Speaker 1: ever see me out on the street, feel free to 613 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: call me Maurice. I kind of miss it. I certainly 614 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed this mobituary. May I ask you to 615 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: please rate and review our podcast. You can also follow 616 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: Mobituaries on Facebook and Instagram, and you can follow me 617 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: on Twitter at Morocca. Here all new episodes of Mobituaries 618 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: every Wednesday. Wherever you get your podcasts, and check out Mobituaries. 619 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: Great Lives Worth Reliving, the New York Times best selling 620 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:41,400 Speaker 1: book now available in paperback and audiobook. It includes plenty 621 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 1: of stories not in the podcast. This episode of Mobituaries 622 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 1: was produced by Jake Harper and Aaron Shrank. Our team 623 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 1: of producers also includes Wilcome Martinez Cacceto and me Morocca. 624 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: It was edited by Moral Walls and engineered by Sam Bear, 625 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 1: with fact checking by Naomi Barr. Our production company is 626 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:08,200 Speaker 1: Neon Hum Media. Our archival producer is Jamie Benson. Our 627 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:15,440 Speaker 1: theme music is written by Daniel Hart. Indispensable support from 628 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 1: Craig Swaggler, Dustin Gervei, Alan Pang, Reggie Basil and everyone 629 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 1: at CBS News Radio. Special thanks to Megan Marcus, Alberto 630 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:31,719 Speaker 1: Robina and the staff of wood Acres Elementary the inimitable. 631 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 1: Aaron Shrink is our senior producer. Executive producers for Mobituaries 632 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,879 Speaker 1: include Steve Raises and Morocca. The series is created by 633 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: Yours Truly and as always undying gratitude to Rand Morrison 634 00:41:47,560 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: and John Carp for helping breathe life into Mobituaries. One