1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:24,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin. The twenty twenty holiday season is the strangest one 2 00:00:24,196 --> 00:00:28,036 Speaker 1: I can remember. Thanks to COVID nineteen, nearly all of 3 00:00:28,076 --> 00:00:30,356 Speaker 1: the festive traditions that I share with my family and 4 00:00:30,436 --> 00:00:34,196 Speaker 1: friends are canceled. The parties, the shopping trips, the dinners, 5 00:00:34,476 --> 00:00:38,276 Speaker 1: They're all gone. It really sucks, especially since I know 6 00:00:38,356 --> 00:00:42,756 Speaker 1: these social interactions are vital ingredients to my happiness. And 7 00:00:42,876 --> 00:00:45,276 Speaker 1: that's why I decided to throw a little holiday zoom 8 00:00:45,316 --> 00:00:49,876 Speaker 1: party Hello, Happy Holiday, partly to let me catch up 9 00:00:49,876 --> 00:00:52,956 Speaker 1: with good friends from the world of psychology a holiday party, right, 10 00:00:55,276 --> 00:00:57,676 Speaker 1: but also to pick their brains for the latest scientific 11 00:00:57,716 --> 00:01:01,356 Speaker 1: insights on how to have a happier holiday season. And 12 00:01:01,476 --> 00:01:05,956 Speaker 1: here was the guest list. Doctor Jamil Zaki from Stanford University, Jamale, 13 00:01:05,996 --> 00:01:07,836 Speaker 1: are you there? Yes, I can hear you now, Doctor 14 00:01:07,916 --> 00:01:10,756 Speaker 1: Liz Done from the Universe Stay British Columbia, let's try 15 00:01:10,836 --> 00:01:14,716 Speaker 1: yelling at you guys a little bit. And doctor Nick 16 00:01:14,756 --> 00:01:17,676 Speaker 1: Epley from the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. 17 00:01:17,956 --> 00:01:20,876 Speaker 1: I start listening to Christmas music and Labor Day, so yeah, 18 00:01:20,956 --> 00:01:25,876 Speaker 1: I'm that guy. And again, so God rescue Mary. Podcast fans, 19 00:01:26,076 --> 00:01:28,636 Speaker 1: get ready to rule your Yule with the Happiness Lab 20 00:01:28,836 --> 00:01:32,876 Speaker 1: Expert Guide to the Holidays with me, Doctor Laurie Santos 21 00:01:32,916 --> 00:01:43,236 Speaker 1: and friends. In a regular year time famine, that feeling 22 00:01:43,236 --> 00:01:46,796 Speaker 1: of being overwhelmed, overcommitted, and up against the clock, that 23 00:01:46,836 --> 00:01:49,796 Speaker 1: would be a real driver of my holiday stress and unhappiness. 24 00:01:50,316 --> 00:01:53,276 Speaker 1: But with the pandemic pretty much emptying my schedule, I 25 00:01:53,316 --> 00:01:57,316 Speaker 1: suddenly have minutes, hours, even days opening up in my diary. 26 00:01:58,076 --> 00:02:00,356 Speaker 1: Liz helped me connect the dots on why this might 27 00:02:00,396 --> 00:02:04,516 Speaker 1: be an opportunity I should appreciate more. I think interestingly, 28 00:02:04,676 --> 00:02:07,716 Speaker 1: COVID may be helpful in this way, right because people 29 00:02:07,756 --> 00:02:10,396 Speaker 1: just aren't going to have as many commitments and stuff 30 00:02:10,436 --> 00:02:14,356 Speaker 1: as they usually do, and this could be pretty helpful 31 00:02:14,476 --> 00:02:18,316 Speaker 1: in terms of enabling people to take a little bit 32 00:02:18,356 --> 00:02:22,756 Speaker 1: more time to enjoy things that they otherwise might just overlook. So, 33 00:02:22,996 --> 00:02:25,596 Speaker 1: you know, we did this study once where we went 34 00:02:25,636 --> 00:02:27,876 Speaker 1: to the Old North Church in Boston, which is like 35 00:02:27,916 --> 00:02:30,876 Speaker 1: a nice tourist attraction. It's like pretty good, it's not 36 00:02:30,956 --> 00:02:34,116 Speaker 1: the taj Mahal, and we either made people feel like 37 00:02:34,196 --> 00:02:37,076 Speaker 1: they had traveled quite a lot in the past or 38 00:02:37,116 --> 00:02:40,116 Speaker 1: like they'd hardly ever gotten to do anything cool basically, 39 00:02:40,476 --> 00:02:43,476 Speaker 1: and then we measured how much time they spent exploring 40 00:02:43,516 --> 00:02:46,676 Speaker 1: this pleasant tourist attraction. And what we found is that 41 00:02:46,716 --> 00:02:48,716 Speaker 1: when people feel like they hardly get to do anything 42 00:02:48,716 --> 00:02:51,716 Speaker 1: cool at all, they spend more time like savoring this 43 00:02:51,876 --> 00:02:54,876 Speaker 1: small tourist attraction. Right, And so you know, I think 44 00:02:54,916 --> 00:02:58,076 Speaker 1: that's potentially a cool thing about COVID is that we 45 00:02:58,116 --> 00:02:59,956 Speaker 1: may feel like we have the time to sort of 46 00:03:00,076 --> 00:03:04,996 Speaker 1: linger and appreciate these sort of low key, enjoyable experiences 47 00:03:04,996 --> 00:03:07,836 Speaker 1: that otherwise we might not. How can we get people 48 00:03:07,876 --> 00:03:10,356 Speaker 1: to like dig in and savor the moment? Right again, 49 00:03:10,396 --> 00:03:12,796 Speaker 1: normal holiday season? This is terrible, right, because I'm running 50 00:03:12,796 --> 00:03:14,956 Speaker 1: from thing to thing and I've got a million things 51 00:03:14,996 --> 00:03:17,236 Speaker 1: on my mind. Right, It's hard to be there when 52 00:03:17,276 --> 00:03:21,156 Speaker 1: I'm like making you know, gingerbread houses with the kids, right, Like, like, 53 00:03:21,196 --> 00:03:23,876 Speaker 1: how do we have folks dig in and actually pay attention? Well, 54 00:03:23,876 --> 00:03:28,356 Speaker 1: I mean, mindfulness is one clear way to increase savoring 55 00:03:28,476 --> 00:03:31,116 Speaker 1: of the moment, right, I mean it sort of brings 56 00:03:31,156 --> 00:03:33,276 Speaker 1: us out of because I think one thing with the holidays, 57 00:03:33,596 --> 00:03:36,236 Speaker 1: at least for me, you know, my parents have split up, 58 00:03:36,276 --> 00:03:39,596 Speaker 1: and so I've got multiple extended families. I'm in the 59 00:03:39,676 --> 00:03:42,996 Speaker 1: car all day, bouncing from one town to another in 60 00:03:43,036 --> 00:03:46,396 Speaker 1: a typical holiday and wherever I am, I'm just thinking 61 00:03:46,396 --> 00:03:48,196 Speaker 1: about the next place that I'm going to be in 62 00:03:48,356 --> 00:03:51,636 Speaker 1: the last place that I was. It sort of intensifies 63 00:03:51,676 --> 00:03:54,716 Speaker 1: this sense of existing outside of the here and now, 64 00:03:54,916 --> 00:03:59,476 Speaker 1: where we're anticipating and remembering and not experiencing. So, I mean, 65 00:03:59,516 --> 00:04:02,356 Speaker 1: I think that anytime, and this might be sort of 66 00:04:02,356 --> 00:04:04,516 Speaker 1: a mundane tip, but I mean I think anytime that 67 00:04:04,596 --> 00:04:07,076 Speaker 1: you could just take a couple of deep breaths, look 68 00:04:07,076 --> 00:04:12,396 Speaker 1: around you pay attention to the details of what you're seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling, 69 00:04:12,436 --> 00:04:15,636 Speaker 1: Just to get yourself back into your senses might be 70 00:04:15,676 --> 00:04:18,476 Speaker 1: one way to sort of turn down the volume on 71 00:04:18,556 --> 00:04:20,996 Speaker 1: how hectic everything feels. And the key is, like you 72 00:04:20,996 --> 00:04:23,116 Speaker 1: have to do that very explicitly, I think in the 73 00:04:23,156 --> 00:04:25,556 Speaker 1: modern age, right, you know, we all want a multitask, 74 00:04:25,636 --> 00:04:29,076 Speaker 1: but the act of monotasking sometimes take some work, you know, 75 00:04:29,116 --> 00:04:31,436 Speaker 1: like literally like move your phone out of the room 76 00:04:31,436 --> 00:04:33,236 Speaker 1: when you're doing the gingerbread house with the kids so 77 00:04:33,276 --> 00:04:35,516 Speaker 1: you're not tempted to check your email and things like that. 78 00:04:35,556 --> 00:04:38,116 Speaker 1: It sounds so silly, but it can completely change the 79 00:04:38,156 --> 00:04:41,796 Speaker 1: experience that you're having. Oh and don't worry about taking 80 00:04:41,796 --> 00:04:45,516 Speaker 1: so many pictures. Man, what people take just infinite pictures. 81 00:04:45,996 --> 00:04:48,156 Speaker 1: My wife's and you know, not to throw under the 82 00:04:48,156 --> 00:04:51,356 Speaker 1: bus here, but my wife's camera role is like just 83 00:04:51,436 --> 00:04:53,436 Speaker 1: a it's like a trash heap. I mean, it's just 84 00:04:53,796 --> 00:04:56,396 Speaker 1: ninety pictures of every moment. It's like, I'm not ever 85 00:04:56,436 --> 00:04:58,276 Speaker 1: going to look through that. And in fact, you know, 86 00:04:58,396 --> 00:05:01,396 Speaker 1: with Diana Tamir, we ran a study again, Liz, this 87 00:05:01,516 --> 00:05:04,876 Speaker 1: is another study in a mundane tourist attraction. But we 88 00:05:04,916 --> 00:05:07,476 Speaker 1: had people take a tour of the church that's in 89 00:05:07,516 --> 00:05:10,556 Speaker 1: the middle of Stamford, and it was a self paced tour, 90 00:05:10,836 --> 00:05:13,836 Speaker 1: and in some cases we had students just leave their 91 00:05:13,836 --> 00:05:16,476 Speaker 1: phone with us and sort of be tech free while 92 00:05:16,516 --> 00:05:18,796 Speaker 1: they did the tour, and in other cases we had 93 00:05:18,796 --> 00:05:21,396 Speaker 1: them take pictures, and in a third case, we forced 94 00:05:21,436 --> 00:05:24,876 Speaker 1: them to log into their social media accounts, take pictures, 95 00:05:24,916 --> 00:05:28,236 Speaker 1: and then post those pictures to their accounts. And we 96 00:05:28,316 --> 00:05:32,116 Speaker 1: found that people reliably remember the event less if they 97 00:05:32,236 --> 00:05:35,476 Speaker 1: documented it, especially if they documented it in order to 98 00:05:35,516 --> 00:05:37,996 Speaker 1: share it later. And it feels like that's just another 99 00:05:38,476 --> 00:05:41,276 Speaker 1: super reliable way to take ourselves out of the moment, 100 00:05:41,676 --> 00:05:44,156 Speaker 1: is to try to turn this moment into a future 101 00:05:44,236 --> 00:05:47,796 Speaker 1: memory by documenting it in some way. And I think 102 00:05:47,836 --> 00:05:50,196 Speaker 1: that's a huge one. Right, It's not just our technology 103 00:05:50,236 --> 00:05:53,476 Speaker 1: that's distracting us, Like sometimes we are actively and explicitly 104 00:05:53,556 --> 00:05:55,916 Speaker 1: using our technology for things that are going to make 105 00:05:55,916 --> 00:05:59,396 Speaker 1: our memories and our experiences worse. Yeah, all of these 106 00:05:59,436 --> 00:06:02,316 Speaker 1: things make them worse, and part because they divide our attention. 107 00:06:02,916 --> 00:06:06,636 Speaker 1: So happy experience as positive experiences, need to be things 108 00:06:06,676 --> 00:06:09,396 Speaker 1: that we are focused on. The attentive too. That's what 109 00:06:09,396 --> 00:06:12,316 Speaker 1: it means to be mindful, as Jimmie was saying, and 110 00:06:12,396 --> 00:06:18,556 Speaker 1: divided attention pursuing multiple goals at once just sucks, just unpleasant. 111 00:06:18,756 --> 00:06:21,196 Speaker 1: So behavioral scientists like, help fix this, right, because I'm 112 00:06:21,196 --> 00:06:23,716 Speaker 1: pretty sure everyone who's listening is like, it's the holidays, 113 00:06:23,756 --> 00:06:26,796 Speaker 1: it's COVID, it's a pandemic. My attention is divided naturally, right, Like, 114 00:06:26,796 --> 00:06:28,916 Speaker 1: how do we get it back? So I have one idea, 115 00:06:28,956 --> 00:06:31,796 Speaker 1: which is give it as a gift to somebody. Right, 116 00:06:31,956 --> 00:06:34,596 Speaker 1: if your spouse is always slightly annoyed by the fact 117 00:06:34,596 --> 00:06:36,956 Speaker 1: that you are like refreshing five thirty eight or like 118 00:06:37,036 --> 00:06:40,476 Speaker 1: checking the latest news, give them three days where you 119 00:06:40,516 --> 00:06:42,356 Speaker 1: put your phone away and then you have to like 120 00:06:42,436 --> 00:06:44,076 Speaker 1: it just and I think it could also be really 121 00:06:44,076 --> 00:06:46,316 Speaker 1: helpful in breaking the habit. Right. So, I know, I, 122 00:06:46,716 --> 00:06:48,596 Speaker 1: although I try to be pretty good about not being 123 00:06:48,596 --> 00:06:51,076 Speaker 1: on my phone all the time, election season really got 124 00:06:51,076 --> 00:06:53,516 Speaker 1: me in the habit of just constantly checking it. And 125 00:06:53,556 --> 00:06:56,436 Speaker 1: now I'm having trouble stopping that habit. And so I 126 00:06:56,436 --> 00:06:59,316 Speaker 1: almost need, you know, an external force, like having promised 127 00:06:59,316 --> 00:07:01,116 Speaker 1: somebody as a gift that I'm not going to look 128 00:07:01,116 --> 00:07:03,196 Speaker 1: at it for three days. I need something like that 129 00:07:03,236 --> 00:07:05,796 Speaker 1: as like a phone cleanse, to like break me out 130 00:07:05,796 --> 00:07:08,796 Speaker 1: of this habit. Oh, I love that idea is first 131 00:07:08,796 --> 00:07:11,516 Speaker 1: of all, is the same way I deleted Twitter from 132 00:07:11,516 --> 00:07:14,276 Speaker 1: my phone after hearing Lorie's episode on that and then 133 00:07:14,316 --> 00:07:17,556 Speaker 1: put it back for the election, to my strong detriment. 134 00:07:17,676 --> 00:07:19,556 Speaker 1: But I mean, I think that in many cases we 135 00:07:19,596 --> 00:07:21,796 Speaker 1: think of nudges, you know, things that will change our 136 00:07:21,836 --> 00:07:24,716 Speaker 1: behavior for the better, and they're often focused on us, 137 00:07:24,716 --> 00:07:27,396 Speaker 1: so like put the salad closer than the chocolate cake, 138 00:07:27,476 --> 00:07:30,996 Speaker 1: for instance. But sometimes some of the most powerful nudges 139 00:07:31,036 --> 00:07:33,796 Speaker 1: are things that actually are service to other people. So 140 00:07:33,836 --> 00:07:35,516 Speaker 1: I think there have been a couple of these studies 141 00:07:35,516 --> 00:07:38,036 Speaker 1: where you can have an app where like every mile 142 00:07:38,156 --> 00:07:41,396 Speaker 1: you run donate some amount of money to charity, some 143 00:07:41,516 --> 00:07:43,596 Speaker 1: very small amount of money to charity, and that actually 144 00:07:43,796 --> 00:07:46,196 Speaker 1: prompts people to do the thing that's healthier for them 145 00:07:46,556 --> 00:07:50,396 Speaker 1: by leveraging their desire to help other people. So I 146 00:07:50,476 --> 00:07:53,196 Speaker 1: love the idea of then wrapping that into the holidays 147 00:07:53,196 --> 00:07:55,796 Speaker 1: as well by saying, you know, everyone would benefit. You know, 148 00:07:55,836 --> 00:07:59,236 Speaker 1: my spouse, my kids, and I would all benefit if 149 00:07:59,276 --> 00:08:01,076 Speaker 1: I could just get off my phone, So I might 150 00:08:01,116 --> 00:08:03,836 Speaker 1: as well give that as a hopefully not the only gift, 151 00:08:04,196 --> 00:08:07,956 Speaker 1: but it's it's a terrific idea. Often when behavioral scientists 152 00:08:07,996 --> 00:08:09,756 Speaker 1: thinking about how to change behave, we try to think 153 00:08:09,796 --> 00:08:12,796 Speaker 1: about situation management. How do we change the environment we're 154 00:08:12,836 --> 00:08:16,156 Speaker 1: in so that we are more attentive to this moment. 155 00:08:16,236 --> 00:08:19,836 Speaker 1: So scheduling can be good for this. Jamio was pointing 156 00:08:19,876 --> 00:08:23,196 Speaker 1: out the challenge of going from one family to another 157 00:08:23,276 --> 00:08:26,956 Speaker 1: to another and so on, and that's hard. But COVID 158 00:08:27,036 --> 00:08:29,916 Speaker 1: this holiday, you know, when we're all in pandemic runs 159 00:08:30,196 --> 00:08:33,516 Speaker 1: potentially a different risk, which is we don't ever commit 160 00:08:34,196 --> 00:08:37,916 Speaker 1: to spending time with some set of family members or 161 00:08:37,996 --> 00:08:41,076 Speaker 1: friends or people who would otherwise commit to And I 162 00:08:41,116 --> 00:08:44,236 Speaker 1: think that's critical to premit get that on your schedule. 163 00:08:44,316 --> 00:08:47,996 Speaker 1: So if normally your family would come a day or 164 00:08:48,036 --> 00:08:51,196 Speaker 1: two before the holiday start and stay with you, well, 165 00:08:51,556 --> 00:08:53,996 Speaker 1: pre commit to that, announced that and make sure that 166 00:08:53,996 --> 00:08:56,116 Speaker 1: that has set aside before and because if you don't 167 00:08:56,116 --> 00:08:59,116 Speaker 1: do that, it ain't going to happen. You just won't 168 00:08:59,116 --> 00:09:01,236 Speaker 1: get it done. And I think that's important to do 169 00:09:01,356 --> 00:09:04,236 Speaker 1: also for the subtle kinds of social connection we get 170 00:09:04,236 --> 00:09:06,796 Speaker 1: over the holidays that we forget right. You know, every 171 00:09:06,876 --> 00:09:09,396 Speaker 1: year I go with a friend of grad school and 172 00:09:09,436 --> 00:09:11,316 Speaker 1: we go to New York and we go holiday shopping 173 00:09:11,316 --> 00:09:14,116 Speaker 1: together and all the stores, and it feels like during 174 00:09:14,156 --> 00:09:16,116 Speaker 1: COVID we're not naturally going to do that right now, 175 00:09:16,396 --> 00:09:18,276 Speaker 1: But that's a kind of social connection that I feel 176 00:09:18,276 --> 00:09:19,676 Speaker 1: like if I don't put that in, I'm going to 177 00:09:19,716 --> 00:09:21,716 Speaker 1: miss out on it, right So think of like, you know, 178 00:09:21,756 --> 00:09:24,036 Speaker 1: the work parties and all the subtle things that you're 179 00:09:24,036 --> 00:09:25,836 Speaker 1: missing out on this year. How can you squeeze that 180 00:09:25,876 --> 00:09:29,316 Speaker 1: part into that seems really important? I have a question 181 00:09:29,356 --> 00:09:33,236 Speaker 1: for the group. So I totally agree that it's critical 182 00:09:33,316 --> 00:09:37,596 Speaker 1: that we carve out time for social connection in a 183 00:09:37,636 --> 00:09:40,396 Speaker 1: time that this holiday season we won't be having it 184 00:09:40,476 --> 00:09:43,236 Speaker 1: that much in person. But I think there's something that 185 00:09:44,236 --> 00:09:49,156 Speaker 1: is unsatisfying about replacing synchronous social connection with zoom. I mean, 186 00:09:49,196 --> 00:09:51,316 Speaker 1: I think if there's something that we don't need more 187 00:09:51,316 --> 00:09:54,156 Speaker 1: of in our life many of us, it's zoom conversations. 188 00:09:54,196 --> 00:09:58,236 Speaker 1: And they also are a poor replica of meaningful social 189 00:09:58,236 --> 00:10:00,636 Speaker 1: connections in at least some ways, right. I mean, when 190 00:10:00,676 --> 00:10:03,396 Speaker 1: I go see my family for the holidays, we don't 191 00:10:03,396 --> 00:10:06,796 Speaker 1: just stand face to face about eighteen inches apart, steering 192 00:10:06,836 --> 00:10:10,996 Speaker 1: at each other, having to sustain a single conversation. Right. 193 00:10:10,996 --> 00:10:14,516 Speaker 1: We just sit around, watch a movie, have some eggnog. 194 00:10:14,876 --> 00:10:17,676 Speaker 1: It's much more low key. And I wonder whether you 195 00:10:17,716 --> 00:10:20,956 Speaker 1: all have thoughts on how to replicate that sort of 196 00:10:21,356 --> 00:10:25,076 Speaker 1: not just connected feeling, but a relaxed connection. We've got 197 00:10:25,076 --> 00:10:27,836 Speaker 1: these great electronic tools for connecting, but they like they 198 00:10:27,836 --> 00:10:31,196 Speaker 1: exert a type of pressure that regular social interaction doesn't. Yeah, 199 00:10:31,236 --> 00:10:34,236 Speaker 1: and there're two pressures. One is the pressure of the forcedness, right, 200 00:10:34,236 --> 00:10:35,836 Speaker 1: like we're all facing each other, we're all in a 201 00:10:35,836 --> 00:10:38,196 Speaker 1: really specific spot, or are we, you know? But the 202 00:10:38,236 --> 00:10:41,916 Speaker 1: second is the setup cost, right, which is high. Right, 203 00:10:41,956 --> 00:10:43,636 Speaker 1: It's not just like I'm going to run into you 204 00:10:43,676 --> 00:10:45,676 Speaker 1: at work or you know, if you're spending two days 205 00:10:45,676 --> 00:10:47,276 Speaker 1: with the family. You're going to run into them, right. 206 00:10:47,276 --> 00:10:49,036 Speaker 1: You don't have to schedule like you're going to walk 207 00:10:49,036 --> 00:10:51,156 Speaker 1: downstairs and they're going to be there, right. And so 208 00:10:51,196 --> 00:10:53,236 Speaker 1: how do we get over those two kinds of costs? 209 00:10:53,476 --> 00:10:56,516 Speaker 1: So I think we can harness the pro social idea here. 210 00:10:56,596 --> 00:10:59,436 Speaker 1: So what has worked for me is I have a 211 00:10:59,436 --> 00:11:02,716 Speaker 1: group of friends. We all live in Canada, but we're American, 212 00:11:02,836 --> 00:11:05,196 Speaker 1: and so we were getting together and doing volunteer work 213 00:11:05,316 --> 00:11:08,316 Speaker 1: leading up to the election, writing letters to voters, and 214 00:11:08,436 --> 00:11:09,996 Speaker 1: so that was a And even though we were all 215 00:11:10,036 --> 00:11:12,476 Speaker 1: crazy busy and we're saying no to everything that anyone 216 00:11:12,476 --> 00:11:14,876 Speaker 1: asked us to do, we would get together on Sundays 217 00:11:14,916 --> 00:11:17,516 Speaker 1: every Sunday and do that together, sort of socially distanced 218 00:11:17,556 --> 00:11:20,156 Speaker 1: out on someone's deck, and that pulled us together and 219 00:11:20,196 --> 00:11:21,876 Speaker 1: it was really nice because we were there to do 220 00:11:21,996 --> 00:11:23,956 Speaker 1: something else like we would have had a hard time 221 00:11:24,076 --> 00:11:26,676 Speaker 1: justifying just all getting together to sit around and talk. 222 00:11:26,916 --> 00:11:28,836 Speaker 1: So that was really nice. And so we've just decided, 223 00:11:29,116 --> 00:11:30,396 Speaker 1: you know what, we're just going to keep doing it. 224 00:11:30,436 --> 00:11:32,596 Speaker 1: And now that there's a health order in place actually 225 00:11:32,596 --> 00:11:34,556 Speaker 1: where I live, that we can't even a few of 226 00:11:34,636 --> 00:11:36,996 Speaker 1: us get together even outside. We're going to do it 227 00:11:36,996 --> 00:11:40,356 Speaker 1: over zoom, which won't be nearly as good. But I 228 00:11:40,396 --> 00:11:42,876 Speaker 1: think it is nice that we're doing something else and 229 00:11:42,876 --> 00:11:44,636 Speaker 1: we're just there to kind of like support each other 230 00:11:44,716 --> 00:11:46,836 Speaker 1: and like, you know, run things by each other. And 231 00:11:47,076 --> 00:11:50,276 Speaker 1: you know, I think there is something really important about 232 00:11:50,316 --> 00:11:53,836 Speaker 1: being around other people without having to be constantly maintaining 233 00:11:53,836 --> 00:11:57,876 Speaker 1: a conversation. So that's the brilliance of the book club. Right. 234 00:11:58,236 --> 00:12:00,756 Speaker 1: I'm not in a book club, but my wife Jen is, 235 00:12:00,876 --> 00:12:03,196 Speaker 1: and you know, once a month or so, she gets 236 00:12:03,196 --> 00:12:05,396 Speaker 1: together with three of our friends. They're not even that 237 00:12:05,436 --> 00:12:08,476 Speaker 1: close friends, but they've gotten closer together through this book 238 00:12:08,476 --> 00:12:11,196 Speaker 1: club experience. They get together once a month. Then they 239 00:12:11,236 --> 00:12:13,956 Speaker 1: spend like a little bit of time talking about the book, 240 00:12:13,996 --> 00:12:18,196 Speaker 1: but mostly they just spend time talking about stuff, and 241 00:12:18,516 --> 00:12:22,676 Speaker 1: it's wonderful time for her. And one thing I'm wondering 242 00:12:22,796 --> 00:12:26,516 Speaker 1: is if something like that wouldn't be possible during this 243 00:12:26,596 --> 00:12:29,876 Speaker 1: holiday season, so over the month of December, say, if 244 00:12:30,156 --> 00:12:33,716 Speaker 1: there couldn't be short books like that with chapters, advent 245 00:12:33,836 --> 00:12:36,956 Speaker 1: stories or whatever, that people might be able to get 246 00:12:36,996 --> 00:12:40,036 Speaker 1: together with their families and just read out loud to 247 00:12:40,076 --> 00:12:43,436 Speaker 1: each other. There will be some conversation around it. It 248 00:12:43,476 --> 00:12:46,036 Speaker 1: would be maybe over zoom or over the phone, but 249 00:12:46,036 --> 00:12:47,716 Speaker 1: you wouldn't all be sitting there staring at it. It It 250 00:12:47,796 --> 00:12:49,476 Speaker 1: would just be a speaker in the room. The thing 251 00:12:49,516 --> 00:12:51,636 Speaker 1: that's hard about zoom is that we all have to 252 00:12:51,676 --> 00:12:54,996 Speaker 1: be attentive to this thing. You don't just have floating conversation. 253 00:12:55,396 --> 00:12:57,596 Speaker 1: That's one idea, But that's another thing I think we 254 00:12:57,636 --> 00:12:59,396 Speaker 1: can break nick, is this idea that we all have 255 00:12:59,436 --> 00:13:01,956 Speaker 1: to be attentive. I've been trying to do that in 256 00:13:01,996 --> 00:13:05,076 Speaker 1: a forced way by my family gets together every Friday 257 00:13:05,156 --> 00:13:08,316 Speaker 1: night and we do dinner together, and like sometimes I'm busier, 258 00:13:08,356 --> 00:13:10,156 Speaker 1: i haven't had a chance to cooked inner yet and whatever, 259 00:13:10,196 --> 00:13:11,996 Speaker 1: and I've just kind of done this force thing of 260 00:13:12,036 --> 00:13:14,476 Speaker 1: like I'm putting the Zoom on while I talk to you, 261 00:13:14,596 --> 00:13:17,476 Speaker 1: but I'm just walking around the kitchen and I'm just cooking. Yeah. Right, 262 00:13:17,596 --> 00:13:19,516 Speaker 1: At first, when I started doing that, it was like 263 00:13:19,556 --> 00:13:22,436 Speaker 1: out of necessity because I hadn't potted anything yet, I'm starving, 264 00:13:22,436 --> 00:13:24,836 Speaker 1: I need to do something. But in practice it worked 265 00:13:24,876 --> 00:13:27,436 Speaker 1: really well for a couple reasons. One is it allowed 266 00:13:27,476 --> 00:13:29,996 Speaker 1: people to see the informality of my life. Right, You're like, oh, 267 00:13:29,996 --> 00:13:31,516 Speaker 1: we're in the kitchen now, like, oh, you have this 268 00:13:31,596 --> 00:13:33,836 Speaker 1: pot right, Like it's not this sort of staged thing 269 00:13:33,876 --> 00:13:35,876 Speaker 1: that we often set up when we're zooming with people. 270 00:13:36,316 --> 00:13:38,636 Speaker 1: But the other is, like, you know, the conversations kind 271 00:13:38,636 --> 00:13:40,676 Speaker 1: of go the way they go when you're not trying 272 00:13:40,676 --> 00:13:42,596 Speaker 1: to be really formal about it, right. I think in 273 00:13:42,636 --> 00:13:44,876 Speaker 1: the holiday season, where we're so busy, that's a way 274 00:13:44,876 --> 00:13:47,276 Speaker 1: to be social while we're doing other stuff, while we're 275 00:13:47,276 --> 00:13:49,356 Speaker 1: wrapping presents, while we're making cookies or all the other 276 00:13:49,396 --> 00:13:51,036 Speaker 1: stuff we need to be doing. I feel like the 277 00:13:51,076 --> 00:13:53,596 Speaker 1: moderate level of structure that we're used to in like 278 00:13:53,796 --> 00:13:56,676 Speaker 1: regular conversations doesn't work well on zoom because we constantly 279 00:13:56,716 --> 00:13:59,036 Speaker 1: interrupt each other. And it's not us, by the way, 280 00:13:59,036 --> 00:14:03,276 Speaker 1: It's not just that we're like bad at this one podcast. 281 00:14:03,876 --> 00:14:07,836 Speaker 1: Like I've talked to I've talked to engineers that work 282 00:14:07,836 --> 00:14:11,356 Speaker 1: in this world basically on these issues, and the problem 283 00:14:11,356 --> 00:14:13,316 Speaker 1: is they just can't get the electrons to like move 284 00:14:13,396 --> 00:14:17,156 Speaker 1: fast enough so that there's constantly this like teeny tiny 285 00:14:17,196 --> 00:14:20,156 Speaker 1: microscopic delay that's just enough to throw things off such 286 00:14:20,196 --> 00:14:22,156 Speaker 1: that it is very hard to have a fluid social 287 00:14:22,156 --> 00:14:24,996 Speaker 1: interaction with more than one other person. Therefore, you can 288 00:14:25,036 --> 00:14:27,156 Speaker 1: either go super casual like the kitchen thing, where it 289 00:14:27,156 --> 00:14:28,916 Speaker 1: doesn't really matter if you interrupt or you're not talking 290 00:14:28,956 --> 00:14:31,756 Speaker 1: all the time, or I've experienced you can go higher 291 00:14:31,836 --> 00:14:34,436 Speaker 1: levels of structure where you actually have like, you know, 292 00:14:34,516 --> 00:14:37,196 Speaker 1: an organized games. So one of the few Zoom conversations 293 00:14:37,196 --> 00:14:39,916 Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed in the past six months was with 294 00:14:39,956 --> 00:14:43,036 Speaker 1: my friends where we took the questions from that classic 295 00:14:43,236 --> 00:14:46,996 Speaker 1: art Aaron's study where people go deeper and deeper right 296 00:14:47,076 --> 00:14:49,196 Speaker 1: asking like if you could have dinner with one famous person, 297 00:14:49,236 --> 00:14:50,596 Speaker 1: who would it be? All you know, all of these 298 00:14:50,636 --> 00:14:55,036 Speaker 1: questions and I had my friends email their answers to 299 00:14:55,116 --> 00:14:57,876 Speaker 1: my husband, who made an Excel spreadsheet for us of 300 00:14:57,956 --> 00:15:00,996 Speaker 1: like everyone's answers, but they were covered, and then we 301 00:15:01,356 --> 00:15:04,076 Speaker 1: had everybody's answers. We had everyone on Zoom and each 302 00:15:04,116 --> 00:15:07,116 Speaker 1: person had to guess who had given which answer, and 303 00:15:07,156 --> 00:15:09,556 Speaker 1: so there was like structure to it, so nobody in disrupted, 304 00:15:09,636 --> 00:15:11,316 Speaker 1: but we also got to know each other better. So 305 00:15:11,356 --> 00:15:13,516 Speaker 1: it was actually an opportunity with my really good friends 306 00:15:13,556 --> 00:15:15,396 Speaker 1: to go, hey, there's probably some stuff we don't know 307 00:15:15,396 --> 00:15:17,756 Speaker 1: about each other because we've never answered these questions together. 308 00:15:18,156 --> 00:15:20,516 Speaker 1: And so in a way, if you induce a little 309 00:15:20,516 --> 00:15:23,716 Speaker 1: bit of structure, this like bizarre situation can potentially give 310 00:15:23,756 --> 00:15:26,116 Speaker 1: you an opportunity to get to know your friends better 311 00:15:26,396 --> 00:15:28,796 Speaker 1: than you would in like the normal kind of world 312 00:15:28,836 --> 00:15:31,876 Speaker 1: where we just rely on our ability to have a 313 00:15:31,996 --> 00:15:35,996 Speaker 1: standard social conversation. And I think the structure Just a 314 00:15:36,076 --> 00:15:38,596 Speaker 1: quick aside and a note on this, I've heard this 315 00:15:38,636 --> 00:15:41,356 Speaker 1: as well from engineers that in essence, as you put it, 316 00:15:41,516 --> 00:15:44,996 Speaker 1: is really beautifully the electrons just can't go fast enough 317 00:15:44,996 --> 00:15:48,236 Speaker 1: for us to really pick up that millisecond level queue. 318 00:15:48,676 --> 00:15:51,996 Speaker 1: To me, though, that is such a credit to mammals 319 00:15:52,076 --> 00:15:55,236 Speaker 1: and our species in particular, like we do this so quick. 320 00:15:55,316 --> 00:15:58,956 Speaker 1: I mean, just the fluidity of in prison interaction is 321 00:15:58,956 --> 00:16:00,596 Speaker 1: the thing, you know. I don't know about you all, 322 00:16:00,636 --> 00:16:02,716 Speaker 1: but I feel that when I do interact with someone 323 00:16:02,716 --> 00:16:05,836 Speaker 1: in prison after seven hours of zoom, it's like running 324 00:16:05,836 --> 00:16:08,236 Speaker 1: with a backpack on and then suddenly taking it off, 325 00:16:08,276 --> 00:16:10,836 Speaker 1: and you realize the facility that we have for this. 326 00:16:10,916 --> 00:16:13,156 Speaker 1: I hope that's something that we can keep on savoring 327 00:16:13,196 --> 00:16:16,036 Speaker 1: after we're all allowed to be three dimensional again. You 328 00:16:16,036 --> 00:16:18,596 Speaker 1: can also, I think, improve the nature of these conversations 329 00:16:18,636 --> 00:16:21,956 Speaker 1: by kind of reducing the bandwidth requirements. It's right that 330 00:16:22,036 --> 00:16:24,876 Speaker 1: the electrons can't move fast enough to move all of 331 00:16:24,876 --> 00:16:29,516 Speaker 1: this video, but audio works great. And in a lot 332 00:16:29,556 --> 00:16:32,676 Speaker 1: of experiments that we've run, the sense of connection with 333 00:16:32,716 --> 00:16:36,116 Speaker 1: another person doesn't really come from seeing them, it comes 334 00:16:36,116 --> 00:16:38,916 Speaker 1: from hearing them. I mean, when you're connected to somebody else, 335 00:16:38,956 --> 00:16:41,236 Speaker 1: it's because you sort of know them. And what does 336 00:16:41,276 --> 00:16:43,876 Speaker 1: it mean to know somebody? Means you know what's on 337 00:16:43,916 --> 00:16:46,236 Speaker 1: their mind. And the closest you get to somebody's mind 338 00:16:47,076 --> 00:16:49,676 Speaker 1: through their voice, through their words that they share with you, 339 00:16:50,276 --> 00:16:52,356 Speaker 1: that communicate what's on their mind with you, it's not 340 00:16:52,396 --> 00:16:55,316 Speaker 1: seeing their body or their physical presence. So we can 341 00:16:55,396 --> 00:16:58,836 Speaker 1: scale down some of those bandwidth requirements and go old 342 00:16:58,876 --> 00:17:01,476 Speaker 1: school and use these old phones for what they're actually 343 00:17:01,516 --> 00:17:04,236 Speaker 1: good for, which is talking to each other. Liz pointed 344 00:17:04,236 --> 00:17:07,516 Speaker 1: out that these zoom calls don't work really well when 345 00:17:07,516 --> 00:17:10,236 Speaker 1: you're with lots of other people, but they can work 346 00:17:10,236 --> 00:17:13,836 Speaker 1: really well in one on one conversation. In lots of 347 00:17:13,876 --> 00:17:16,316 Speaker 1: experiments that we conduct, we have people do like the 348 00:17:16,516 --> 00:17:20,396 Speaker 1: art errand questions, we have people discuss some of the 349 00:17:20,476 --> 00:17:23,916 Speaker 1: deep and meaningful intimate questions that are there. We modify 350 00:17:23,956 --> 00:17:27,956 Speaker 1: them a little bit and We compare those against shallower conversations, 351 00:17:27,956 --> 00:17:31,316 Speaker 1: and it turns out that people really underestimate how much 352 00:17:31,356 --> 00:17:36,476 Speaker 1: they're going to enjoy deep and meaningful conversation. Never fear, 353 00:17:36,636 --> 00:17:39,316 Speaker 1: the deep and meaningful talk is only just getting started 354 00:17:39,356 --> 00:17:42,276 Speaker 1: on the Happiness Lab Expert Guide to the Holidays. When 355 00:17:42,316 --> 00:17:44,636 Speaker 1: we return from the break, Jamil, Nick, Liz and I 356 00:17:44,676 --> 00:17:47,236 Speaker 1: will tackle the thorny topic of what to do when 357 00:17:47,276 --> 00:17:50,996 Speaker 1: you're festive Holiday celebrations don't go quite to plan. You 358 00:17:50,996 --> 00:17:53,116 Speaker 1: guys can have your compassion. I just like to yell out, 359 00:17:53,196 --> 00:18:01,036 Speaker 1: Christmas is ruined. The Happiness Lab Expert Guide to the 360 00:18:01,076 --> 00:18:09,996 Speaker 1: Holidays will be right back. When we left the Zoom party, 361 00:18:10,156 --> 00:18:12,916 Speaker 1: Nick Epley was explaining how much we dread engaging in 362 00:18:12,956 --> 00:18:16,756 Speaker 1: deep and meaningful conversations with people, how vital it can 363 00:18:16,796 --> 00:18:20,516 Speaker 1: be for boosting our well being. Twenty twenty has been 364 00:18:20,556 --> 00:18:23,716 Speaker 1: an extraordinary year in so many ways, but one of 365 00:18:23,716 --> 00:18:26,356 Speaker 1: the aspects I worry about most is how many of 366 00:18:26,436 --> 00:18:29,076 Speaker 1: us have come to dread engaging in just the sort 367 00:18:29,116 --> 00:18:33,396 Speaker 1: of open and honest dialogue. Nick recommends. There are so 368 00:18:33,436 --> 00:18:37,436 Speaker 1: many heated, contentious and politicized topics right now that even 369 00:18:37,476 --> 00:18:41,636 Speaker 1: dinner conversation with our families can feel like a minefield. Luckily, 370 00:18:41,876 --> 00:18:44,076 Speaker 1: Jamil is a leading expert on how we can all 371 00:18:44,116 --> 00:18:47,716 Speaker 1: do better at navigating this during the holiday season. For 372 00:18:47,836 --> 00:18:50,596 Speaker 1: many of us, our families are some of the only 373 00:18:50,596 --> 00:18:54,516 Speaker 1: people that were really close with who have very different experiences, 374 00:18:54,516 --> 00:18:56,716 Speaker 1: in very different backgrounds and beliefs than we do, and 375 00:18:56,996 --> 00:18:59,436 Speaker 1: bridging that is always difficult. But I mean, right now, 376 00:18:59,436 --> 00:19:04,116 Speaker 1: it just feels impossible. And we've talked about this before, Laurie, 377 00:19:04,116 --> 00:19:07,316 Speaker 1: but I think we often underestimate the utility of empathy 378 00:19:07,356 --> 00:19:10,436 Speaker 1: in those conversations, right. We often try to write people 379 00:19:10,476 --> 00:19:13,156 Speaker 1: off or think that there's no common ground, and when 380 00:19:13,236 --> 00:19:16,676 Speaker 1: we actually try to connect and share stories and listen 381 00:19:16,716 --> 00:19:18,836 Speaker 1: to people who are different from us, it's not just 382 00:19:19,036 --> 00:19:21,596 Speaker 1: that we listen and feel happier we're actually we end 383 00:19:21,676 --> 00:19:24,476 Speaker 1: up often finding some common ground that we didn't realize 384 00:19:24,716 --> 00:19:28,196 Speaker 1: was there, and maybe even being more persuasive. In fact, 385 00:19:28,436 --> 00:19:31,236 Speaker 1: my graduate student Louisa Santos has this amazing work that 386 00:19:31,276 --> 00:19:35,636 Speaker 1: she's just conducted where she convinces some group of people 387 00:19:35,716 --> 00:19:38,596 Speaker 1: that actually, empathy is a great tool for relating to 388 00:19:38,596 --> 00:19:41,036 Speaker 1: people who are different from you, and it actually can 389 00:19:41,036 --> 00:19:44,836 Speaker 1: be effective in helping you represent your own position really well. 390 00:19:45,316 --> 00:19:46,876 Speaker 1: She then tells a separate group of people, you know, 391 00:19:46,916 --> 00:19:50,396 Speaker 1: empathy is overrated in political conversations. It doesn't really work. 392 00:19:50,756 --> 00:19:52,876 Speaker 1: And then she had those people who had read one 393 00:19:52,916 --> 00:19:55,756 Speaker 1: of those essays write a note to somebody who they 394 00:19:55,796 --> 00:19:58,396 Speaker 1: disagreed with about an issue. And then we found people 395 00:19:58,396 --> 00:20:01,076 Speaker 1: who actually disagreed with them and had them read the notes, 396 00:20:01,276 --> 00:20:04,116 Speaker 1: and we found that when people were convinced that empathy 397 00:20:04,236 --> 00:20:07,236 Speaker 1: was useful, they wrote notes that were perceived as more 398 00:20:07,236 --> 00:20:09,876 Speaker 1: empathic by someone they disagreed with. But it wasn't just 399 00:20:09,956 --> 00:20:13,316 Speaker 1: that the person they disagreed with was more persuaded and 400 00:20:13,476 --> 00:20:17,036 Speaker 1: came closer to the opinion of the original note writer. 401 00:20:17,596 --> 00:20:20,636 Speaker 1: In essence, when we know that empathy is useful, we 402 00:20:20,796 --> 00:20:23,756 Speaker 1: use it and it becomes useful. And I think that 403 00:20:23,956 --> 00:20:26,836 Speaker 1: we underestimate how useful it will be, and therefore don't 404 00:20:26,876 --> 00:20:29,836 Speaker 1: try to make connections, even though there might be some 405 00:20:30,036 --> 00:20:34,516 Speaker 1: to be made. One critical component of empathy is listening, 406 00:20:35,196 --> 00:20:37,476 Speaker 1: rather than presuming you know what's on the mind of 407 00:20:37,516 --> 00:20:40,996 Speaker 1: another person. Jamil noted that we often dread these kinds 408 00:20:41,036 --> 00:20:43,756 Speaker 1: of conversations, but it's important to recognize where that dread 409 00:20:43,836 --> 00:20:46,916 Speaker 1: is coming from. It's not coming from the actual conversation 410 00:20:47,476 --> 00:20:50,196 Speaker 1: we've just had with someone. It's not coming from the 411 00:20:50,276 --> 00:20:55,676 Speaker 1: actual connection experience. It's coming from our expectation of how 412 00:20:55,716 --> 00:20:58,916 Speaker 1: this is going to go. We are playing out this interaction, 413 00:20:58,996 --> 00:21:02,276 Speaker 1: imagining all of the stupid things that they are going 414 00:21:02,276 --> 00:21:05,156 Speaker 1: to say and all the hateful ideas they're going to 415 00:21:05,236 --> 00:21:07,756 Speaker 1: present to us. And usually when you then end up 416 00:21:07,756 --> 00:21:10,676 Speaker 1: talking to somebody like that, ask them, Hey, I got 417 00:21:10,716 --> 00:21:13,316 Speaker 1: to sing that's kind of bugging me. Maybe we should 418 00:21:13,356 --> 00:21:15,676 Speaker 1: talk about or we got this kind of difficult conversation 419 00:21:15,796 --> 00:21:19,396 Speaker 1: that maybe we ought to have. You often find well, 420 00:21:19,436 --> 00:21:21,636 Speaker 1: I wasn't so bad after all, At least we find 421 00:21:21,636 --> 00:21:24,716 Speaker 1: that in our research, because the mind that you imagine 422 00:21:24,796 --> 00:21:28,716 Speaker 1: in these difficult circumstances or with these difficult relationships often 423 00:21:28,796 --> 00:21:32,756 Speaker 1: isn't quite as extremely bad as you imagine, And you 424 00:21:32,796 --> 00:21:35,196 Speaker 1: don't learn that if you are just talking you have 425 00:21:35,276 --> 00:21:38,796 Speaker 1: to be listening to what the other person has to say. Yeah. 426 00:21:38,836 --> 00:21:42,036 Speaker 1: In fact, Mina Chakara and others have found something that 427 00:21:42,916 --> 00:21:45,316 Speaker 1: I like to call phantom polarization. Right. I mean, it's 428 00:21:45,356 --> 00:21:48,236 Speaker 1: true that people are far apart on issues. It's also 429 00:21:48,356 --> 00:21:51,396 Speaker 1: true that there's a lot of animosity, but even worse 430 00:21:51,436 --> 00:21:53,556 Speaker 1: than that is what we imagine other people to think 431 00:21:53,596 --> 00:21:56,756 Speaker 1: about us. So if you ask liberals, for instance, what 432 00:21:56,796 --> 00:21:59,156 Speaker 1: do you think conservatives believe about you? How do you 433 00:21:59,156 --> 00:22:01,396 Speaker 1: think they feel about you? They'll say, oh, my god, 434 00:22:01,436 --> 00:22:04,836 Speaker 1: they hate my guts entirely. They see nothing of value 435 00:22:04,836 --> 00:22:07,236 Speaker 1: in me. And if you ask conservatives, you know, how 436 00:22:07,276 --> 00:22:10,076 Speaker 1: do you feel about liberals? They don't love. But it's 437 00:22:10,196 --> 00:22:14,396 Speaker 1: they by no means feel as much animosity as liberals believe. 438 00:22:14,436 --> 00:22:16,516 Speaker 1: That's and that goes in the other direction as well. 439 00:22:16,556 --> 00:22:19,356 Speaker 1: So to Nick's point, I mean, we're imagining this conversation. 440 00:22:19,356 --> 00:22:22,796 Speaker 1: We're making assumptions both about this person's beliefs but also 441 00:22:22,796 --> 00:22:25,916 Speaker 1: about their beliefs about us, and we might be wrong 442 00:22:26,156 --> 00:22:28,636 Speaker 1: in both cases, but we'll never know, and we'll never 443 00:22:28,676 --> 00:22:31,356 Speaker 1: have a chance to find any common ground unless we 444 00:22:31,436 --> 00:22:33,396 Speaker 1: ask them. And I think one of those spots this 445 00:22:33,476 --> 00:22:35,676 Speaker 1: year in particular, where we have a lot of kind 446 00:22:35,676 --> 00:22:39,156 Speaker 1: of negative expectations is around these conversations that are specific 447 00:22:39,196 --> 00:22:41,636 Speaker 1: to COVID right now. Right like, one of the hard 448 00:22:41,676 --> 00:22:44,036 Speaker 1: conversations I think a lot of families are having right 449 00:22:44,116 --> 00:22:46,676 Speaker 1: now is this, should we get together? Maybe we're not 450 00:22:46,676 --> 00:22:49,356 Speaker 1: going to get together. Maybe different members of the family 451 00:22:49,396 --> 00:22:51,596 Speaker 1: have different expectations about whether it's a good idea to 452 00:22:51,636 --> 00:22:54,636 Speaker 1: get together. How do we navigate the sort of COVID 453 00:22:54,716 --> 00:22:57,836 Speaker 1: norms and COVID conflict during this time of year. Here's 454 00:22:57,916 --> 00:23:01,476 Speaker 1: my idea, which is that this isn't for convincing a relative, 455 00:23:01,476 --> 00:23:04,836 Speaker 1: it's just for sort of managing this challenge. So where 456 00:23:04,876 --> 00:23:07,716 Speaker 1: I live, throughout most of COVID, we've been able to 457 00:23:07,756 --> 00:23:10,316 Speaker 1: get together, but only in small group. So you've been 458 00:23:10,316 --> 00:23:13,356 Speaker 1: allowed to have six people. The challenge is that you're 459 00:23:13,356 --> 00:23:16,956 Speaker 1: in this position of like choosing your favorite people in 460 00:23:16,996 --> 00:23:20,476 Speaker 1: a way that has to be like super exclusive and explicit, 461 00:23:20,596 --> 00:23:23,876 Speaker 1: which is terrible, right. So I proposed this idea to 462 00:23:23,916 --> 00:23:25,676 Speaker 1: my friends, which they did not go for, but I 463 00:23:25,676 --> 00:23:27,916 Speaker 1: still think it's a good idea, which is that we 464 00:23:27,956 --> 00:23:32,676 Speaker 1: should have like a pot luck where basically everyone puts 465 00:23:32,676 --> 00:23:34,956 Speaker 1: their name in a hat and then you draw like 466 00:23:35,076 --> 00:23:38,956 Speaker 1: five people that are your safe six then for that month. 467 00:23:39,276 --> 00:23:42,036 Speaker 1: And what I think that does is allows us to 468 00:23:42,036 --> 00:23:45,916 Speaker 1: follow this rule of like keeping our groups small, but 469 00:23:45,996 --> 00:23:48,916 Speaker 1: without implying that oh, because I didn't choose you for 470 00:23:48,996 --> 00:23:51,676 Speaker 1: my safe six, I don't care about you, I don't 471 00:23:51,756 --> 00:23:53,956 Speaker 1: like you because we know that the sense of being 472 00:23:53,956 --> 00:23:57,276 Speaker 1: socially excluded is just devastating to people, even if they 473 00:23:57,396 --> 00:23:59,236 Speaker 1: know that, like, hey, there's a really good reason for 474 00:23:59,316 --> 00:24:02,756 Speaker 1: doing this right now, it feels awful. And so I 475 00:24:02,796 --> 00:24:05,556 Speaker 1: think acknowledging this upfront and creating like a pool and 476 00:24:05,556 --> 00:24:08,796 Speaker 1: then you know it, making it explicitly random and like 477 00:24:08,876 --> 00:24:11,876 Speaker 1: doing the drawn zoom or something might be a good 478 00:24:11,916 --> 00:24:15,276 Speaker 1: way to go. Another avenue for convincing relatives that might 479 00:24:15,436 --> 00:24:17,956 Speaker 1: want to get together and might not understand why it's 480 00:24:18,156 --> 00:24:20,316 Speaker 1: not a great idea to do so, is again to 481 00:24:20,436 --> 00:24:23,916 Speaker 1: leverage our desire to be kind to one another. There's 482 00:24:24,076 --> 00:24:27,916 Speaker 1: evidence now Juli and Jordan published some work recently demonstrating 483 00:24:27,956 --> 00:24:31,636 Speaker 1: that people are more willing to engage in social distancing 484 00:24:31,916 --> 00:24:33,996 Speaker 1: if it's framed as a way to protect other people 485 00:24:34,236 --> 00:24:37,716 Speaker 1: as opposed to protecting ourselves. So, for instance, you know, 486 00:24:37,916 --> 00:24:40,596 Speaker 1: my parents, they understand that we're going to be having 487 00:24:40,596 --> 00:24:43,316 Speaker 1: a distant holiday, but if they didn't, it might not 488 00:24:43,396 --> 00:24:45,596 Speaker 1: strike them that great as saying, well, I don't want 489 00:24:45,596 --> 00:24:47,316 Speaker 1: to be around you because I don't want to get sick. 490 00:24:47,876 --> 00:24:50,276 Speaker 1: Perhaps a more effective message would be I don't want 491 00:24:50,276 --> 00:24:51,756 Speaker 1: to be around you because I don't want you to 492 00:24:51,836 --> 00:24:54,036 Speaker 1: be sick, right, I want to protect you from a 493 00:24:54,036 --> 00:24:56,756 Speaker 1: potential risk here. Yeah, I've heard this to you of like, 494 00:24:57,036 --> 00:24:58,836 Speaker 1: you know, if something happened to you, how could I 495 00:24:58,876 --> 00:25:01,116 Speaker 1: ever think of Christmas the same way? Again? You know, 496 00:25:01,196 --> 00:25:03,316 Speaker 1: I really need to I know this sucks right now, 497 00:25:03,356 --> 00:25:04,916 Speaker 1: but kind of future us is going to be so 498 00:25:04,996 --> 00:25:06,676 Speaker 1: pleased that we did it this way kind of thing. 499 00:25:06,956 --> 00:25:09,596 Speaker 1: A different challenge of folks are facing with COVID nineteen 500 00:25:09,876 --> 00:25:12,436 Speaker 1: is that, you know, those people who like the holidays 501 00:25:12,436 --> 00:25:14,276 Speaker 1: and like Christmas. That is not me, but that is 502 00:25:14,316 --> 00:25:16,956 Speaker 1: some people. Nick Maybe people are really grieving the fact 503 00:25:16,996 --> 00:25:19,796 Speaker 1: that our holiday traditions might be broken or really different 504 00:25:19,836 --> 00:25:22,636 Speaker 1: this year. Right, how do we kind of navigate that? 505 00:25:23,316 --> 00:25:25,996 Speaker 1: Do you mean our holiday traditions of sort of togetherness 506 00:25:26,396 --> 00:25:29,476 Speaker 1: or just all kinds of stuff? Right? You know my family, 507 00:25:29,556 --> 00:25:31,676 Speaker 1: you know, often there's a Star Wars movie that comes 508 00:25:31,676 --> 00:25:34,716 Speaker 1: out around the holiday season, so typically in December we 509 00:25:34,756 --> 00:25:36,756 Speaker 1: get together and we watch the new Star Wars or 510 00:25:36,796 --> 00:25:39,556 Speaker 1: you go shopping at the mall with your family members. Right, 511 00:25:39,916 --> 00:25:41,956 Speaker 1: we have this family tradition when I go visit my 512 00:25:42,036 --> 00:25:44,196 Speaker 1: husband's family in Iowa that we all go to Target 513 00:25:44,236 --> 00:25:46,276 Speaker 1: together because we've never sorted it out and gotten our 514 00:25:46,316 --> 00:25:48,276 Speaker 1: shopping done. So we always go on like Christmas Eve 515 00:25:48,316 --> 00:25:51,156 Speaker 1: to Target, but we each get a peppermint moocha at 516 00:25:51,156 --> 00:25:53,436 Speaker 1: the Target and it feels so nice and like it 517 00:25:53,476 --> 00:25:56,076 Speaker 1: sounds silly, but I'll actually miss the peppermint moocha. It's 518 00:25:56,076 --> 00:25:59,756 Speaker 1: like the best thing about Christmas season for me personally, peppermutmocha. 519 00:25:59,796 --> 00:26:02,036 Speaker 1: But yeah, so how do we kind of navigate kind 520 00:26:02,076 --> 00:26:04,276 Speaker 1: of just being sad about those those moments and those 521 00:26:04,316 --> 00:26:07,436 Speaker 1: traditions being broken. So this is a good question. Maybe 522 00:26:07,436 --> 00:26:09,396 Speaker 1: for the group, we may have different opinions of at this. 523 00:26:09,556 --> 00:26:13,356 Speaker 1: I can see going one of two ways here. One 524 00:26:13,476 --> 00:26:16,716 Speaker 1: is to try to recreate these right, So you know, 525 00:26:16,756 --> 00:26:18,956 Speaker 1: we can think of lots of different ways where Laura, 526 00:26:18,996 --> 00:26:21,916 Speaker 1: you could have your peppermint mocha. You all set up 527 00:26:21,916 --> 00:26:23,956 Speaker 1: a time and we're gonna go Wednesday night at six 528 00:26:23,996 --> 00:26:27,356 Speaker 1: o'clock and off we go and get it. And you 529 00:26:27,356 --> 00:26:29,676 Speaker 1: know that there might be some experiences that we can 530 00:26:29,716 --> 00:26:31,796 Speaker 1: recreate like that that would be just as good as 531 00:26:31,836 --> 00:26:34,636 Speaker 1: the original. But there are a lot of experiences that 532 00:26:34,676 --> 00:26:38,196 Speaker 1: we probably can recreate, and for those, I think it's 533 00:26:38,236 --> 00:26:42,116 Speaker 1: probably best not to try. Like, you know, a b 534 00:26:42,316 --> 00:26:45,836 Speaker 1: plus version of the holidays. It's you know, it's kind 535 00:26:45,876 --> 00:26:47,796 Speaker 1: of like what we used to do, but it's kind 536 00:26:47,796 --> 00:26:49,596 Speaker 1: of a sucky version of what we used to do. 537 00:26:50,276 --> 00:26:53,436 Speaker 1: Like that's not worth trying. Instead, you'd be better off 538 00:26:53,476 --> 00:26:56,036 Speaker 1: just doing something totally different. We're going to come up 539 00:26:56,076 --> 00:26:58,116 Speaker 1: with a totally new thing that we're going to do 540 00:26:58,636 --> 00:27:02,956 Speaker 1: just this one weird holiday season. I'm curious to hear 541 00:27:02,996 --> 00:27:05,196 Speaker 1: what other folks think about about this tension. Do we 542 00:27:05,236 --> 00:27:08,316 Speaker 1: recreate and try to come close or do we just 543 00:27:08,556 --> 00:27:11,996 Speaker 1: scrap it do something totally different. I'm on the recreate side, 544 00:27:12,236 --> 00:27:15,876 Speaker 1: I think, because first off, if you have little kids, 545 00:27:16,436 --> 00:27:19,636 Speaker 1: I think they still want things to be a certain 546 00:27:19,716 --> 00:27:22,596 Speaker 1: way and to be familiar. And so, you know, the 547 00:27:22,756 --> 00:27:27,076 Speaker 1: most recent holiday that I experienced was Halloween, and you know, 548 00:27:27,236 --> 00:27:30,756 Speaker 1: my eight year old had ideas about exactly how everything 549 00:27:30,796 --> 00:27:33,276 Speaker 1: should work because that's how Halloween is, and it was 550 00:27:33,796 --> 00:27:36,756 Speaker 1: freakishly important to him that like things be that way, 551 00:27:37,196 --> 00:27:41,756 Speaker 1: and so you know, we actually not to overindulge our child, 552 00:27:41,876 --> 00:27:44,836 Speaker 1: but just with these times being so weird, we really 553 00:27:44,876 --> 00:27:46,916 Speaker 1: wanted to try to recreate that for him. So we 554 00:27:46,956 --> 00:27:49,956 Speaker 1: actually managed to do most of the things in the 555 00:27:49,996 --> 00:27:52,956 Speaker 1: same way. You know, we still went trick or treating, 556 00:27:53,436 --> 00:27:56,356 Speaker 1: and there were things we could do safely that I 557 00:27:56,396 --> 00:28:01,276 Speaker 1: think had enough of the characteristics of the usual experience. 558 00:28:01,836 --> 00:28:03,196 Speaker 1: I said to my husband at the end of the night, 559 00:28:03,196 --> 00:28:05,836 Speaker 1: a trick or treating, Like, even though we noticed so 560 00:28:05,876 --> 00:28:09,356 Speaker 1: many differences tonight, it had enough of those features. It 561 00:28:09,436 --> 00:28:12,556 Speaker 1: will feel like he had a Halloween this year. Yeah, 562 00:28:12,556 --> 00:28:14,316 Speaker 1: So that's part of it is trying to diagnose, like 563 00:28:14,356 --> 00:28:17,116 Speaker 1: what are the necessary features, right, And some of it, 564 00:28:17,156 --> 00:28:19,036 Speaker 1: you know, maybe we could recreate over zoom of like, 565 00:28:19,036 --> 00:28:21,116 Speaker 1: oh we're together in this other way, but some of 566 00:28:21,156 --> 00:28:23,516 Speaker 1: it's like, no, it's really about the candy, right, Like 567 00:28:23,556 --> 00:28:25,516 Speaker 1: if you don't have the candy, it just like doesn't count. 568 00:28:25,636 --> 00:28:29,076 Speaker 1: So I too would fall on the recreate side. My 569 00:28:29,196 --> 00:28:31,516 Speaker 1: dad and I also, like we have a tradition of watching, 570 00:28:31,836 --> 00:28:35,396 Speaker 1: you know, whatever crappy blockbuster movie comes out right around Christmas, 571 00:28:35,396 --> 00:28:38,996 Speaker 1: and I think we'll probably contingent on a seventy plus 572 00:28:39,116 --> 00:28:41,276 Speaker 1: year old a man being able to run this, try 573 00:28:41,356 --> 00:28:44,116 Speaker 1: to do one of those Netflix watch parties that you 574 00:28:44,156 --> 00:28:47,316 Speaker 1: can do. And likewise, my mom always cooks proving food 575 00:28:47,316 --> 00:28:49,396 Speaker 1: and so I'll try to recreate some of it's like 576 00:28:49,436 --> 00:28:51,756 Speaker 1: she's sending me recipes and I'll try to make them, 577 00:28:51,796 --> 00:28:54,876 Speaker 1: which you know will probably cause some small explosion, but 578 00:28:55,036 --> 00:28:57,316 Speaker 1: is still worth it, and it's actually will be new 579 00:28:57,596 --> 00:28:59,916 Speaker 1: for me to do it instead of her and might 580 00:28:59,916 --> 00:29:01,956 Speaker 1: be meaningful in a different way. But if I could 581 00:29:01,996 --> 00:29:04,876 Speaker 1: just add one thing, I think we can try to 582 00:29:04,916 --> 00:29:07,716 Speaker 1: find fixes. We can try to either recreate or we 583 00:29:07,716 --> 00:29:11,036 Speaker 1: can do something totally new. I'd like to also acknowledge 584 00:29:11,076 --> 00:29:14,356 Speaker 1: that we can also mourn the loss of this holiday season, 585 00:29:14,396 --> 00:29:18,476 Speaker 1: and that's okay. It's okay to focus on the struggles 586 00:29:18,476 --> 00:29:21,196 Speaker 1: that we're going through, acknowledge them, and be mindful of 587 00:29:21,236 --> 00:29:22,956 Speaker 1: them as well. I mean, that's part of what self 588 00:29:22,996 --> 00:29:27,796 Speaker 1: compassion entails, is not just escaping suffering, but paying attention 589 00:29:27,836 --> 00:29:30,316 Speaker 1: to it and especially acknowledging that it's a part of 590 00:29:30,316 --> 00:29:32,476 Speaker 1: our common humanity. I mean, I think in some of 591 00:29:32,476 --> 00:29:35,316 Speaker 1: the self compassion exercises that I do, for instance, you 592 00:29:35,356 --> 00:29:38,716 Speaker 1: imagine something that you're struggling with, something that's causing you pain, 593 00:29:39,036 --> 00:29:41,556 Speaker 1: and then you imagine a soccer stadium full of other 594 00:29:41,596 --> 00:29:44,596 Speaker 1: people who are suffering in the same way right alongside you. 595 00:29:44,676 --> 00:29:46,676 Speaker 1: And I mean, there are enough people in the world 596 00:29:46,676 --> 00:29:49,396 Speaker 1: that there's probably a soccer stadium worth of us suffering 597 00:29:49,396 --> 00:29:51,476 Speaker 1: in any way at any given time. But I think 598 00:29:51,476 --> 00:29:55,396 Speaker 1: this holiday season, millions or billions of us will be 599 00:29:55,516 --> 00:29:58,676 Speaker 1: united in the loss of things that we have celebrated 600 00:29:58,716 --> 00:30:01,436 Speaker 1: in our lives. And that's tough, but it's also something 601 00:30:01,476 --> 00:30:04,196 Speaker 1: that we share together, and I think remembering that that's 602 00:30:04,316 --> 00:30:08,076 Speaker 1: just a common experience and focusing on it in that 603 00:30:08,116 --> 00:30:10,516 Speaker 1: way it can take a little bit of the edge 604 00:30:10,516 --> 00:30:12,356 Speaker 1: off of it. I also think this is where the 605 00:30:12,436 --> 00:30:16,676 Speaker 1: human capacity for adaptation comes in really handy, because I've 606 00:30:16,676 --> 00:30:20,876 Speaker 1: been finding that experiences that normally weren't that amazing to me, 607 00:30:20,996 --> 00:30:22,956 Speaker 1: like going out to dinner with a couple of friends, 608 00:30:23,036 --> 00:30:25,676 Speaker 1: now I'm like, who look at us out for dinner 609 00:30:25,716 --> 00:30:29,396 Speaker 1: with two friends. This is amazing, you know. And so 610 00:30:29,996 --> 00:30:32,516 Speaker 1: what might have been a B plus Christmas in a 611 00:30:32,596 --> 00:30:36,196 Speaker 1: normal year might feel like an A because we're grading 612 00:30:36,236 --> 00:30:39,876 Speaker 1: it on the curve of like our COVID level experiences. 613 00:30:39,916 --> 00:30:41,876 Speaker 1: And I would argue that we may have had a 614 00:30:41,916 --> 00:30:45,076 Speaker 1: bit of a happiness reset where it's easier to derive 615 00:30:45,156 --> 00:30:49,316 Speaker 1: joy from sort of simpler, less impressive pleasures, and we 616 00:30:49,396 --> 00:30:51,836 Speaker 1: might be able to capitalize on that in recreating some 617 00:30:51,916 --> 00:30:54,636 Speaker 1: of these experiences. So the last question before we kind 618 00:30:54,636 --> 00:30:57,156 Speaker 1: of wrap up is, you know, hopefully our listeners are 619 00:30:57,156 --> 00:30:59,956 Speaker 1: putting into effect all these holiday tips, but what if 620 00:30:59,956 --> 00:31:03,156 Speaker 1: it's an absolute disaster, you know, worst holiday ever? Right? 621 00:31:03,196 --> 00:31:06,116 Speaker 1: How do you pick yourself up afterwords and recover? You know, 622 00:31:06,236 --> 00:31:09,276 Speaker 1: I come back to self compassion. I think that this 623 00:31:09,796 --> 00:31:13,156 Speaker 1: is just unequivocally an unhappy time. If you look at 624 00:31:13,196 --> 00:31:15,596 Speaker 1: the Hedonometer, I don't know if you if you all 625 00:31:15,676 --> 00:31:18,716 Speaker 1: have seen. This is this sort of device that computer 626 00:31:18,796 --> 00:31:21,836 Speaker 1: scientists and psychologists have put together that scrapes Twitter and 627 00:31:21,876 --> 00:31:26,156 Speaker 1: basically uses language processing to estimate how happy the world is. 628 00:31:26,236 --> 00:31:28,996 Speaker 1: And they've had these estimates estimates every day since two 629 00:31:29,036 --> 00:31:31,276 Speaker 1: thousand and eight. And I mean, we're just in far 630 00:31:31,316 --> 00:31:33,756 Speaker 1: in a way, the least happy year at least since 631 00:31:33,956 --> 00:31:36,676 Speaker 1: since they've recorded those data. And I think it's it's 632 00:31:36,716 --> 00:31:39,996 Speaker 1: fine to not feel okay right now. It's it's a 633 00:31:40,116 --> 00:31:43,596 Speaker 1: very common experience, and it's common during the holidays in 634 00:31:43,716 --> 00:31:46,796 Speaker 1: other years. So you've got a compound. You're getting this 635 00:31:46,876 --> 00:31:49,716 Speaker 1: double whammy of the holiday season, which can be stressful, 636 00:31:49,756 --> 00:31:52,756 Speaker 1: plus twenty twenty, which is stressful. And so I think 637 00:31:52,796 --> 00:31:55,836 Speaker 1: if if you're not feeling well, right now. Some acceptance 638 00:31:56,476 --> 00:32:00,596 Speaker 1: might be a good way to treat yourself well, even 639 00:32:00,716 --> 00:32:03,436 Speaker 1: even when you're not feeling great. Can I shift gears 640 00:32:03,436 --> 00:32:05,596 Speaker 1: on that just a little bit? The self compassion part, 641 00:32:05,636 --> 00:32:08,676 Speaker 1: I think is a good point, but compassion towards others 642 00:32:08,756 --> 00:32:12,436 Speaker 1: is also a very critical And if you've had a 643 00:32:12,756 --> 00:32:15,996 Speaker 1: really bad experience that you have been involved with, it's 644 00:32:16,036 --> 00:32:18,756 Speaker 1: possible that there's something that you've done that you could 645 00:32:18,796 --> 00:32:22,756 Speaker 1: apologize for, like, look, I shouldn't have reacted that way. 646 00:32:23,596 --> 00:32:26,036 Speaker 1: We're all stressed. I should have spent more time at this. 647 00:32:26,196 --> 00:32:31,236 Speaker 1: I should. And you can recover a lot by saying 648 00:32:31,796 --> 00:32:35,876 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. And so if something has gone bad, you 649 00:32:35,916 --> 00:32:37,676 Speaker 1: know it's not likely that you're going to be the 650 00:32:37,716 --> 00:32:41,196 Speaker 1: only one who's responsible for it going bad, but taking 651 00:32:41,236 --> 00:32:45,676 Speaker 1: some ownership of that and writing any wrongs you may 652 00:32:45,676 --> 00:32:49,716 Speaker 1: have contributed to by calling somebody up and saying you're 653 00:32:49,756 --> 00:32:52,276 Speaker 1: sorry for what happened, and you hope this won't happen again, 654 00:32:52,276 --> 00:32:54,156 Speaker 1: and here's what we're gonna try to do to make 655 00:32:54,156 --> 00:32:56,316 Speaker 1: things better next time. I think that's how you recover, 656 00:32:56,356 --> 00:32:58,316 Speaker 1: and that's not just a bad holiday. That's how you 657 00:32:58,396 --> 00:33:02,676 Speaker 1: recover from anything you've screwed. Up at is you accept 658 00:33:02,716 --> 00:33:06,156 Speaker 1: responsibility for what you did, and you grab hold of 659 00:33:06,156 --> 00:33:08,276 Speaker 1: your agency and you say I'm sorry for screwing up. 660 00:33:08,356 --> 00:33:10,116 Speaker 1: You guys can have your passion. I just like to 661 00:33:10,196 --> 00:33:12,956 Speaker 1: yell out Christmas is ruined, and that makes me feel better. 662 00:33:15,356 --> 00:33:17,716 Speaker 1: Remember the Santo's family, because I feel like we might 663 00:33:17,756 --> 00:33:25,836 Speaker 1: have some Christmas is ruins. Well. I think that gets 664 00:33:25,836 --> 00:33:27,676 Speaker 1: to the last thing. Is this idea that you know, 665 00:33:27,916 --> 00:33:31,236 Speaker 1: one tendency this holiday season is going to just be 666 00:33:31,596 --> 00:33:34,396 Speaker 1: to complain a lot, right, Like, there's so much we're 667 00:33:34,396 --> 00:33:36,396 Speaker 1: missing and our routines are messed up and it's not 668 00:33:36,436 --> 00:33:39,876 Speaker 1: the same as before. You know, any strategies for either 669 00:33:39,956 --> 00:33:43,396 Speaker 1: complaining better or doing something that's a kind of instead 670 00:33:43,436 --> 00:33:46,716 Speaker 1: of complaining that might be good. I would suggest complaining 671 00:33:46,756 --> 00:33:49,876 Speaker 1: first and then get it out of the way. All right, 672 00:33:49,916 --> 00:33:51,836 Speaker 1: we've had that. Now, let's get on with it and 673 00:33:52,116 --> 00:33:54,676 Speaker 1: you acknowledge it. As Jimill pointed out, it's good to 674 00:33:54,676 --> 00:33:58,476 Speaker 1: acknowledge when times are sucky, say that and then get 675 00:33:58,516 --> 00:34:00,956 Speaker 1: on with it. Onward, Let's have holiday. Yeah. I mean, 676 00:34:01,036 --> 00:34:03,596 Speaker 1: my wife is a therapist, and you know she says 677 00:34:03,716 --> 00:34:06,076 Speaker 1: that any loss, not just the loss of people, but 678 00:34:06,196 --> 00:34:08,796 Speaker 1: the loss of experiences are things that you hope for 679 00:34:09,356 --> 00:34:12,996 Speaker 1: can be mourned, right, And one interesting thing about morning 680 00:34:13,116 --> 00:34:16,676 Speaker 1: is that it's intense. You really focus on it, and 681 00:34:16,756 --> 00:34:19,276 Speaker 1: that makes it easier to move on. So yeah, to 682 00:34:19,716 --> 00:34:23,436 Speaker 1: Nick's point, I mean, I think that complain intentionally, right, Like, 683 00:34:23,676 --> 00:34:26,716 Speaker 1: rather than have this ambient thing that's floating around you 684 00:34:27,036 --> 00:34:30,396 Speaker 1: like pink pins, cloud of dust, right, is just to 685 00:34:30,636 --> 00:34:33,956 Speaker 1: do it intentionally, really focus on what has been lost, 686 00:34:34,676 --> 00:34:37,916 Speaker 1: and then hopefully that can help one cool. Yeah, And 687 00:34:37,916 --> 00:34:40,156 Speaker 1: I think this is where New Year's comes in handy. So, like, 688 00:34:40,316 --> 00:34:43,316 Speaker 1: even if the holidays don't go great, right, Like, I mean, 689 00:34:43,396 --> 00:34:45,356 Speaker 1: I think everyone's going to feel like, you know, hey 690 00:34:45,396 --> 00:34:47,316 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, don't let the door hit you on the 691 00:34:47,316 --> 00:34:50,276 Speaker 1: way day. And so I think New Year's Eve, even 692 00:34:50,276 --> 00:34:52,036 Speaker 1: though we're all probably just going to be like home 693 00:34:52,116 --> 00:34:54,996 Speaker 1: drinking champagne on our couches, is going to be awesome 694 00:34:55,316 --> 00:34:58,876 Speaker 1: because ce in hell twenty twenty, right, and so like 695 00:34:58,956 --> 00:35:00,916 Speaker 1: it does, I think it's going to give us this 696 00:35:00,996 --> 00:35:03,276 Speaker 1: fresh start. So no matter how badly the holidays go, 697 00:35:03,476 --> 00:35:05,476 Speaker 1: we get to have that fresh start with like, hey, 698 00:35:05,516 --> 00:35:08,516 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, it's already looking better. Yeah, I don't 699 00:35:08,556 --> 00:35:11,356 Speaker 1: want to say be worse, but it is this. We 700 00:35:11,436 --> 00:35:14,236 Speaker 1: know that things like a new year arriving give us 701 00:35:14,236 --> 00:35:16,156 Speaker 1: this opportunity for a fresh start. So even if we've 702 00:35:16,196 --> 00:35:19,556 Speaker 1: gotten into this like complaining mode, like bitter modes, it's 703 00:35:19,636 --> 00:35:23,596 Speaker 1: unhappy mode, like okay, then have at it throughout Christmas 704 00:35:23,636 --> 00:35:26,436 Speaker 1: and everything, but then when New Year's comes, like, use 705 00:35:26,516 --> 00:35:29,916 Speaker 1: that opportunity for that fresh start. Thank you behavioral scientists 706 00:35:29,956 --> 00:35:31,996 Speaker 1: for making one of my worst holidays maybe a little 707 00:35:31,996 --> 00:35:35,236 Speaker 1: bit better this year. I'll text you on December twenty 708 00:35:35,236 --> 00:35:37,996 Speaker 1: six and I'll let you know how it went. It 709 00:35:38,036 --> 00:35:40,596 Speaker 1: was great fun, It was fantastic as always. We got 710 00:35:40,596 --> 00:35:44,716 Speaker 1: to do this every year or every major holiday. Maybe 711 00:35:44,716 --> 00:35:47,596 Speaker 1: we will make this a new tradition. I really enjoyed 712 00:35:47,596 --> 00:35:50,316 Speaker 1: hosting this virtual party. But I'll let you in on 713 00:35:50,356 --> 00:35:53,396 Speaker 1: a secret. It didn't go as planned. The wine I 714 00:35:53,436 --> 00:35:55,836 Speaker 1: sent my friends is a thank you gift, never turned up, 715 00:35:56,316 --> 00:35:58,676 Speaker 1: and we had some technical hiccups that really ate into 716 00:35:58,676 --> 00:36:01,236 Speaker 1: the time we'd hope to use just for goofing around. 717 00:36:02,036 --> 00:36:05,596 Speaker 1: And yes, we talked over each other by mistake a lot. Yeah, like, 718 00:36:07,436 --> 00:36:10,516 Speaker 1: oh I love that idea. But on the whole, I'm 719 00:36:10,556 --> 00:36:12,956 Speaker 1: really really glad we made the effort, and I hope 720 00:36:12,956 --> 00:36:15,356 Speaker 1: you learned something that will make your holidays a little 721 00:36:15,396 --> 00:36:18,916 Speaker 1: happier despite all the challenges of this really difficult year. 722 00:36:19,996 --> 00:36:22,796 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab will return in twenty twenty one. For 723 00:36:22,876 --> 00:36:26,556 Speaker 1: that fresh start Liz was talking about. Starting January fourth, 724 00:36:26,796 --> 00:36:29,396 Speaker 1: We'll bring you four special shows looking at the things 725 00:36:29,436 --> 00:36:31,796 Speaker 1: many of us get wrong when we try to adopt 726 00:36:31,876 --> 00:36:35,316 Speaker 1: that new year Knew you attitude. I don't want to 727 00:36:35,356 --> 00:36:39,636 Speaker 1: spoil any of the surprises, but we've booked some amazing guests, 728 00:36:39,676 --> 00:36:43,636 Speaker 1: including some folks that I really fangirl over. So thrilled 729 00:36:43,636 --> 00:36:45,476 Speaker 1: that you check time to join my podcast. Thank you 730 00:36:45,516 --> 00:36:49,516 Speaker 1: so much, It's very mutual the appreciation. Oh thank you 731 00:36:50,756 --> 00:36:54,516 Speaker 1: so Until then, I wish you a happier holiday season 732 00:36:55,116 --> 00:37:02,796 Speaker 1: and here's to a fantastic new year. The Happiness Lab 733 00:37:02,876 --> 00:37:05,476 Speaker 1: is co written and produced by Ryan Dilley. The show 734 00:37:05,556 --> 00:37:08,796 Speaker 1: was mastered by Evan Viola, and our original seasonal holiday 735 00:37:08,836 --> 00:37:12,556 Speaker 1: music was composed by Zachary Silver. Special thanks to the 736 00:37:12,716 --> 00:37:17,996 Speaker 1: entire Pushkin crew, including Mia LaBelle, Carlie mcgliori, Heather Faine, 737 00:37:18,356 --> 00:37:22,676 Speaker 1: Sophie Crane, mckibbon, Eric Sandler, Jacob Weisberg, and my agent 738 00:37:22,836 --> 00:37:25,716 Speaker 1: Ben Davis. The Happiness Lab is brought to you by 739 00:37:25,756 --> 00:37:28,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries and me Doctor Laurie Sanders