WEBVTT - Impact of COVID-19 on Nursing 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.720 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.320 Jason Kelly. We're right here every day bringing you the 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:11.160 latest news from the world's of business and finance, plus technology, politics, economics, 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.280 all harnessing the power of Business Week reporters and editors, 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.439 and of course Carol that's part of a team of 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:20.439 twenty seven hundred journalists and analysts more than a hundred 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.240 and twenty countries and Jason. You can download Bloomberg Business 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.239 Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, ol Bloomberg dot com. You can 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.640 also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.560 on Bloomberg Radio every weekday, or watch us on YouTube 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:36.680 by searching Bloomberg Global News. Incredible Health is a company 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.720 that connects hospitals with nurses and other healthcare workers. So 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.440 let's talk about what our next guest has seen through 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:45.360 the pandemic and what the future may look like to 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:49.680 protect vital healthcare workers. Dr Iman Abusaid is CEO and 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:52.600 co founder at Incredible Health. She joins us on the 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:55.880 phone from San Francisco. Dr abus Aid, nice to have 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:58.000 you here with Jason and myself. So tell us a 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:00.880 little bit about what you have seen through the pandemic 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:03.680 and kind of where we are right now. Yeah, thanks 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:06.360 for having me. Um. So, what we've seen is we 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.920 did a pretty in depth study of nurses throughout April 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:12.600 over fo nurses and we also analyze the data in 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:15.679 our database and what we're realizing. What we're seeing is 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:18.840 that nurses are having a very difficult time with this pandemic, 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:22.520 and the preexisting issues that already existed in this industry 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:26.120 like staffing, shortages, burnout, and stress are continuing to happen. 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.800 Um over to only two percent of nurses have said 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:33.280 that their facility was very prepared to deal with COVID 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:38.240 nineteen and so knowing this businesses as well as you do, 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:42.119 both the sort of the the practice and the logistics 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:45.240 of it, as well as the economics of it. Uh, doctor, 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:48.640 I was like, how did this happen? Was it just 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:51.680 a matter of unpreparedness? Was it just this the size 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:53.880 and scope of it? What do you owe it to? 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:57.120 I think it was both the shock. It was a 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:00.400 shock to the health system, it really was. And uh, 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.920 you know, when when of nurses are saying that they 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:08.320 don't have the adequate personal protective equipment to practice safely, 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:10.959 you know that's that just shows a lack of preparedness 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:13.280 and the shock to the system. Now, I know that 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:17.280 hospital executives are scrambling to fix this UM, but it's 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.040 still a problem. So you're saying it's still a problem. 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:22.720 It's still a problem. So where is the breakdown? I mean, 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.440 you understand this world, and and you know, Jason and 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:28.760 I've had a lot of conversations trying to understand, you know, 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:32.040 the supply chain, and everybody talked about shortages, and we 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:34.359 had federal officials saying we're doing everything we you know, 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:37.400 we're getting all the equipment everybody needs, and yet there 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:40.560 doesn't seem to be the case. What happened. Was it 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:44.120 a case that we needed a federal initiative UM and 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:47.760 didn't get it. Yeah, I mean I think all around, 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:51.840 whether it was the hospital industry itself or government, it 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:54.399 was just a lack of preparedness is quite shocking here. 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:56.760 And it wasn't just about this is not just about 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:00.480 personal protective equipment that's lacking. I mean even the section 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:04.280 control protocols that hospitals needed to put into place that 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.519 we're not clear guidelines coming from the CDC. So each 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:10.840 hospital had to scramble to put their infection control protocols 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:15.280 in place. You know, it's interesting, Dr Z. You know, 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:19.359 we we've also talked a lot to you know, as 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.000 Carol mentioned sort of the heads of hospital systems and 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:25.680 sort of how it's going to be for consumers of 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:29.960 healthcare and how we may interact with doctors and and whatnot. 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:33.519 Differently going forward. How's it going to change the nursing business? 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:36.120 I mean, you have a you have an MBA from Wharton, 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:39.280 You've been involved in startups, you worked at McKenzie like, 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:43.600 you understand the business side of this really well. How 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:47.320 does the business of nursing change going forward? Okay, so 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:50.440 even before the pandemic, there was a massive nursing shortage. 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:54.000 Our our health system needed another There will be we 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:57.160 will be one million nurses shorts by. It is one 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.840 of the biggest skilled labor shortages we have in this country. 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:03.000 This pandemic is expected to make it even worse because 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:06.040 our demand for healthcare as a country continues to go up. 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:08.920 Now we don't see that changing after the pandemic either. 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:12.600 This is generally a group of workers has underappreciated, overworked, 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:14.920 and there are simply not enough of them. And so 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:17.400 we'll need to continue doing whatever we can to increase 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:19.240 the number of nurses in this country. What does an 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:21.680 average nurse? I hate that saying an average nurse, But 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:26.560 what does a nurse make today? So the national averages 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:29.600 around eighty thousand and ninety thousand dollars for a hospital nurse. 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:31.960 In states like California, it's a bit higher, like a 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:34.760 hundred and ten or a hunder twenty dollars average. So 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:39.960 why aren't people going into nursing Um? Number one, it's 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:44.480 a very tough profession and it's it's a challenging job. Um. 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:47.600 The second is that nursing schools don't necessarily have the 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:50.200 capacity to train more nurses. There are always huge weight 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:53.159 lists for entering nursing school and they're still challenging to 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.680 get in. Also, the training of nurses is not is inadequate. 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:00.640 Even after nursing school, getting appropriately trained in a specific 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.760 specialty has a lot of limitations because it's very expensive 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:07.520 to train in nurse. And so you're obviously in the 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:13.360 business of technology and using technology to maybe help eliminate 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:16.440 some of these bottlenecks. How does it work, how does 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:20.160 it work going forward? And how can technology help us here. Yeah, 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:22.359 So in our case for incredible help, we work with 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:26.160 over two hundred hospitals across the country, including top academic 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:29.279 medical centers like Stanford and Cedar Sinai. And what we've 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:32.839 done is, really we've automated entire processes of hiring and 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:36.920 screening using software. So we've automated the screening of the nurses, 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:40.479 we've automated the custom matching to specific employers that meet 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:44.640 their needs. Um, and the end result is hiring happening 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.479 in less than thirty days instead of it taking ninety days, 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.360 which is the national average to fill a nurse position today. Wow. 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:55.960 So how how much of an impact is that? Making 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:59.320 only have about forty seconds left here? Yeah, So what 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:03.080 we've already seen, I mean, um, it's in what we've 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:06.360 seen in the survey is that for the emergency department 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:09.480 and intensive care and nurses, it's they're higher getting hired 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:13.320 even faster in nineteen days these days because of the pandemic. 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:16.080 And so we see this acceleration continuing to happen and 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:19.880 technology and hiring continue to be adopted across health systems 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:23.840 in this country. Really some great insight, Yeah, really good, 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:28.040 really good, And I think under reported candidly the shortage 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:30.840 that we're talking about, great work. We really appreciate it. 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.800 Dr Iman I was eight is co founder and CEO 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.159 of Incredible Health, joining us on the phone from San Francisco. 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:40.280 Fascinating background she has working at Mackenzie and n b 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:44.280 A and has worked for a COASTLA backed startup as well. 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:48.240 Really interesting, Like puls together, it comes at it from 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:51.599 so many different perspectives, right, so fascinating. You're listening to 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.640 Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly on 0:06:55.839 --> 0:07:00.279 Bloomberg Radio. So, Jason Kelly, don't you remember that bloom 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:03.039 Bloomberg Business Week cover. I think it was last October. 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:06.360 Everything is private equity right now. I think you had 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.560 some some involvement in that. I did. I do remember that. 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.120 I remember it quite well. It turns out it was 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:18.200 fairly pression and unbelievably powerful and important story in the 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.640 magazine this week. Heather pearl Berg wrote it. Max Chafkin 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:23.880 edited it. He is the features editor, of course of 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.360 Bloomberg Business Week. Here to tell us all about it. 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:29.800 On the phone from Queen's mc hammer. What's going on, 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:33.040 Hey there, how's it going? This is a big story. 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:36.720 This is it's a long read, um and pretty intense. 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:39.840 Tell us what Heather and you guys found when it 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:43.520 comes to private equity and the medical business. So as 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.200 you said, you know, pe private equity has you know, 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:50.440 sort of been all over our economy. And of course, 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:52.720 the healthcare industry is you know, one of the biggest 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:55.680 or maybe the biggest um industry in the US, and 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:58.520 so so probably woudn't surprise you that private equity investors 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.840 are are in there. Um. What Heather did is she 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:05.560 looked at a specific field, dermatology. Um. It's it's it's 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:07.520 definitely not the only field where there's a lot of 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:11.600 activity here, but it's one where where it's sort of everywhere. Uh. 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:13.800 Some people think as many as ten percent of the 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.360 dermatologists in America work for a private equity firm or 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:21.000 work for a company that's backed by a private equity firm. 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:23.720 And what's interesting, you know, kind of when you get 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.600 into it, you start to see some of the ways 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:31.000 that our healthcare system um isn't working particularly well. And 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:32.840 you know, one thing, one of the stories we've seen 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:34.800 and Heather gets into this in the in the piece, 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:36.760 but one of the stories we've we've seen with the 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:39.640 coronavirus is you have these e R doctors who are 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:43.360 being UM either laid off or furloughed at a time 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:46.720 when everybody in America is focused on healthcare. You know, 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:48.319 you think watching the news that this would be a 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:50.080 great time to be in healthcare. But it's it's it's 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:52.400 of course a terrible time. And it's because of the 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.520 way these companies are structured. They are you know, they're 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:57.880 stretching away where they need past that and growing really fast. 0:08:57.960 --> 0:08:59.800 A lot of them are very leverage. And when you 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.680 start not having um electric procedures, when when demand for 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:06.599 the services goes down, that that's when things start to 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:08.559 break down. And and and there are some of these 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:12.080 kind of UM stories that really seemed pretty terrible. Well, 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:19.440 and it's interesting. So you know these dermatologists, right, dermatology practices, 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:25.480 I mean they were not deemed essential correct through the shutdown. Yeah, no, 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:29.040 it's it's all very much gray area and and stayed 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.840 in local laws. They're all they're all sorts of differences. Um. 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:33.920 But but the lead anecdote in the story, which is 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.280 very memorable, is of one of the bigger chains in 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:40.080 the country. It's it's a large dermatology chain in current California, 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.400 which you know, right at the height of the crisis, 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:47.719 was basically calling people up and telling them to keep 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:51.800 their botox appointments, among other things. And and UM. Heather 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:55.520 listened in on a sort of assume conference that was 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:57.280 held for the industry, where where the CEO of the 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:00.920 company UM sort of explained himself saying, at you know, 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:03.480 this is just like a grocery store where if they're 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:06.160 selling flour and meat, it's not like they're gonna stop 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:08.600 selling candy. And so the analogy would be, like, you know, 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:12.520 operating botox is like UM selling candy. And you know 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.839 that obviously makes sense maybe from a business point of view, 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:19.000 it's it's these these companies definitely need to keep revenue 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:22.479 if they want to survive. But but of course, many doctors, 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:24.559 and this is a conversation that's going on everywhere I 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.400 can talk to doctors feel very uncomfortable with this. They 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:31.200 feel like they are being asked between sort of profits 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:35.280 and UM traditional medical ethics. Well, and I think that's 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.199 a really important point Max that Heather dives into pretty 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:41.040 deeply into the story, which is, you know, there are 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:44.120 some workarounds, and private equity is about nothing if not 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:46.840 work arounds in terms of able to being able to 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:50.880 structure deals in certain ways. Mean, this is a business, 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.680 the health care business that the American Medical Association, I 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:58.480 believe essentially says, listen, this isn't just your regularly your 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:00.760 regular old sort of like P and L that you're 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:02.880 managing here. And yet they sort of found a way 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:08.360 through these uh managed companies to to basically buy these 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:12.199 things up. And they're only sort of getting bigger, right Yeah, 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:14.680 they're they're only getting bigger, and and they probably continue 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:16.960 to get bigger because because the economy is so bad 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.559 right now and these practices are are failing um or 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:22.960 close to failure, and you know, big private equity firm 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:24.760 comes in with a lot of money. You know that's 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:27.079 going to look perhaps more attractive than it did before. 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:29.480 I think we should say, and it's it's probably an 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:34.200 important point that they're not everything about this industry is bad. 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:36.839 I mean they are, and what they what they'll say 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:38.840 when you talk to them, is that they are expanding 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:41.920 access for people. You know, one one upside of growth 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:44.439 is that is that you know, these practices are fanning out. 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:49.000 It's it's potentially you know, more convenient for patients. Um. Also, 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:51.360 you know a lot of people have talked about how 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:53.160 how hard it is to be a doctor in America, 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:55.360 and and you know, helping these doctors get paid a 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:57.520 little bit more money. You know that all sounds like 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.320 a good thing. The problem is when you get these 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.160 um sort of private equity roll ups where they're they've 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:05.000 already cut a lot of costs and then all of 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:06.840 a sudden they try to do like another roll up, 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:10.400 you know, taking two uh two sort of large groups 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.560 of merging them together, and you basically, you know, according 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:17.479 to the sources, to talk to lots and lots of doctors. 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:19.760 You know, that's where you start running into problems. Well, 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:21.520 and I love there's a quote and they're about serving 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.040 two masters. You can't serve patients and investors. So it 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:26.440 gets a little tricky and complicated. It's a great read, 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:28.960 and as Jason mentioned, there's a lot of information here, 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:31.679 so highly recommend everybody check it out in the magazine. 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:34.920 Max Chafkin, features editor at Business Week, joining us on 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.120 the phones from Queens, New York. Thanks Max, you're listening 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.960 to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:45.600 on Bloomberg Radio. All right, so let's get back to 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:48.439 the world of economics. It's where we started the show 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:51.520 at the top of two, with the FED releasing the 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:55.240 minutes from its latest meeting, and those are must reads 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:59.000 at this point as we try and discern what happens next, 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:01.840 especially when it comes to monetary policy in this crisis. 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:04.400 Let's break it down with our team, Alex Harris Pond. 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:10.680 They are the Long Island Ladies, the Long Island Ladies, Guys, 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:16.080 Queens Queen, the Queen's Queens, the Long Island Queens Queen. 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.880 All right, we're gonna do that. Alex Harris Fond, reporter 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:23.440 for Bloomberg. She's on the phone from my island City, Queens, 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:27.240 Lanish electrovic and yours economist, Bloomberg Economic. She's on the 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:31.360 same island, the Island of Long So, Elena, I want 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.679 to start with you. What what you here? What do 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.080 you see in those minutes today? What's the most important 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:40.360 thing we need to take away? It's it's pretty close 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:45.200 actually in terms of geography. But yeah, for the for 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:50.080 the minute, two things really struck me. So first is 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:54.840 about the state of the economy and how much policymakers 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:59.560 are concerned about the medium outlook. So this struck us 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:05.120 when the statement was released already three weeks ago. But 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:09.760 the minutes provide a lot of detail about policymakers concerns 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:14.880 about long term unemployment. So if people lose jobs and 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.760 stay away from work for quite a long time, they 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:22.320 will lose skills. So they already are talking about this 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:27.680 in the minutes and about how much uncertainty there is. 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:33.520 UH they're about future economic outlook, So that's one thing, 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:39.320 and another thing is um UH what the policy tools discussion. 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:44.400 So policymakers obviously reiterated the message that we heard from 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:48.640 them in recent public remarks. The minutes noted that they 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.440 are committed to using its full range of tools to 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:57.240 support economic growth. So that includes que policies, that includes 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:02.080 lending programs, and they and ready to adjust UH and 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:07.280 adapt those existing facilities to better tailor them to business needs. 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:10.640 So what was really interesting in this set of minutes 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:15.560 is how they would like to reinforce forward guidance. This 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:19.760 is a very powerful tool that said UH used in 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:23.760 the past. They used it extensively during the financial crisis, 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:28.240 and they would like to either introduce some sort of 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:33.560 outcome based approach when they tie uh, the path for 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:38.560 policy rates to some sort of macroeconomic variables such as 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:43.400 the unemployment rate, and or they can do date based 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.520 approach when they just say, okay, we're gonna keep the 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:50.160 rates slow until some future date in time. So they 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:54.520 used both approaches back in the financial crisis. You know, 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:57.840 some of them were quite successful, some of them were 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:03.400 probably not. Uh So it's not very clear that you know, 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:06.360 these are the ideal tools, but there's a lot of 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:12.000 discussion among policymakers about how to reinforce the message, so 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:16.520 to say, open mouth operations from the fifth Alright, so 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.480 let's bring in Alex Harris. And I'm curious if you're 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:22.040 more interested in the FED or that twenty year bond auction. 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:25.080 I mean, it seems like inventors are very happy to 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:27.760 buy up anything that the US government puts out there, 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:32.280 whether it's twenty years or thirty years. Uh, you know, 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.600 real quick on the twenty year if you know, obviously 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:37.800 this is the first twenty year auction we've seen in 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:41.720 thirty four years, so it's hard to draw any sort 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:46.200 of comparison. But you know, when the Treasury was debating 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:48.600 about you know, fifty or a hundred year bond, and 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:51.960 you know, dealers and other people in the community, in 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.480 the financial community kept saying, no, no, twenty year. You 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:57.840 know this this is a good time that you're going 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.800 to get that interest from the pension them, from the 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:04.000 life insurers. Um. In terms of the minutes, you know, 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:08.240 some of it is you know, Elena mentioned uh policy, 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:10.320 you know, it's full range of policy tools. But I 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:13.200 think we need to just quickly mentioned what they did 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.960 not talk about was negative interest rates. So I'm hoping, 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:19.760 and I think a lot of people in the financial 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:23.200 space are hoping that this puts the negative rates discussion 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:26.639 to bed. You know, FED funds futures implied rates were 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:30.200 back in positive territories. So I think people are like, okay, 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.159 debts over so. So the fact that there was no 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:35.200 mention of it, you know, I think it was key. 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:37.840 You know, there was also a brief mention of yield 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:41.080 curve control, which is where they would cap rates at 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:44.720 some point on the curve at a certain level. Um. 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.080 You know, and and someone had sent me some commentary 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:49.800 and you know, this could be a way the FED 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:53.320 could be seen as sort of expanding committing to an 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:58.080 unlimited expansion of its portfolio. Um, you know if they 0:17:58.200 --> 0:17:59.760 if they do end up going that route and I 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.639 don't they put that that to bed yet. So so 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.919 there's something to it there and something to be mindful of. 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.359 We listened to you know, members of the f MC 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:12.160 come out and speak, you know. And then the other 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:15.120 thing is at least for the friend and those those 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:20.160 funding market wants. Um. You know, the SILMA manager Lowly Logan, 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.200 laid out the rationale for why they didn't feel the 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:26.200 need to move that interest in excess reserves rate higher, 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:30.560 and participants were sort of split during the last meeting, 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:32.159 you know, as to whether or not they were going 0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:35.840 to do it, and it seems like, um, they're like, yeah, 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:38.320 we don't, we don't feel a need to. We're okay here. 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:40.840 But you know, one of the things if I could 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.919 ask them anything right now in relations in regards to 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:47.040 that age, okay, well, if you don't feel like you do, 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:49.600 feel like the bottom of the range is pretty well protected. 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.159 And why did you make them move higher? You know, 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:54.680 why did you make the tweek in January? Because something 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.800 was not necessarily adding up for me and I would 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:01.280 be curious to know more about you know, why January 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:04.280 warranted such a move right now with rates of the 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.280 zero lower bounded doesn't All right, guys, listen, Thank you 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:09.960 so much. Really appreciate you weighing in on some of 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:12.879 the day's news, including those Fed minutes. Yolanda Slet. You 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:15.919 have a senior US economist at Bloomberg Economics on the 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:18.200 phone from Long Island, New York, along with Alex Harris 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:20.840 also weighing in on that twenty year bond auction. Bond 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:24.280 reporter at Bloomberg News from Long Island City, Queens. You're 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:28.040 listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Jason 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:31.840 Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. So, Jason, it was pretty hard 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:34.960 to find an investment haven, as we know, as the 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:38.480 financial markets were selling off right initially because of the virus. 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:42.040 And yet Emily Chason writes and our weekly Bloomberg Green 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:45.480 Segment that while not many s G fund managers their 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.639 mission was necessarily to protect investors from a global pandemic, 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:51.120 it turns out maybe a lot of their funds did. 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:54.000 So let's get into it. In our Bloomberg Green Segment, 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:56.679 Emily is sustainability editor at Bloomberg New She joins us 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.320 once again on the phone in New York. So, Emily, 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:01.080 tell us a little bit of about this story this week. 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:03.600 We we often talk about E s G funds and 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:06.119 their mission, and I feel like over the last decade 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:07.879 or so, we know that you can kind of have 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:10.359 an E s G mission and also get performance. But 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.040 it sounds like you found out that even during this 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:16.120 market downturn caused by the virus, that some of these 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:21.960 E s G funds actually outperformed maybe some other investments. Yeah. Well, 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:25.360 so it's interesting because E s G portfolio managers for years, 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:26.679 if you talked to them, they say, you know, there 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:28.800 was a market downturn in that quarter, and we actually 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:32.840 outperformed in it. So they've actually sort of bet on 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:35.159 resilient companies even though they were kind of planning for 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.720 a climate crisis or finding, you know, managers they thought 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:40.800 were good and adaptable, using E s G sports as 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:44.199 a proxerty for that. They turned out that they had 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:46.560 also sort of bet for this global pandemic. So when 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:51.120 you look at UM portfolios and indexes overall. Black Rocks 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:53.320 did a really interesting study this week where it found 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:57.800 that UM in the COVID nineteen crisis, E s G 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:02.680 indexes outperformed. And if you look like eighteen when there 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:07.000 were market downturns, like of E s G in bexes 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:09.840 that performed. So there seems to be a pattern here, right, 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:14.000 And yet Emily, you know there's not a lot of 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:19.199 available inventory out there for the regular old four oh 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:25.359 one K investor to really get into these investments. Why, well, 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:27.400 this is what you've sort of damaged it. This week 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:31.080 in our screen newsletter was why the d S funds 0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:34.160 that are providing this downside protection are missing from your 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:37.280 four oh one k fund? And it's a little complicated. Um, 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:39.800 Bloomberg does have an E s G fund in it's 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:41.720 four one k, but very few companies have done it 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:45.320 because they're worried that they're compromising returns for that. But 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:47.879 now now that's not really the case anymore. If you 0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:49.960 look at you know, how this performed. And this is 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:51.359 the first big test for a lot of the S 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:54.760 funds that only about a s G funds actually have 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:57.359 a five year track record UM that are large G 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:00.000 s G funds, So UM, this is the first big test, 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:02.919 and they seem to be providing some sort of economic benefits. 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:04.480 So I think people are going to wonder why they're 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:06.760