1 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:12,399 Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You 2 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat I am the host. 3 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: And quick reminder before we get into the good stuff today, 4 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: because we have some good stuff today that although I'm 5 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: a therapist, although this podcast is called NI Therapy, this 6 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: does not serve as a replacement or substitute for any 7 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: actual mental health services. However, it still can be helpful. 8 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: So now that we have that out of the way, 9 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: I get to introduce part two of the conversation that 10 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: I had with singer songwriter JP Sachs. It's going to 11 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: be just as good as last week. And I know 12 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: you guys loved the episode last week and some of 13 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: the things we talked about. We expand on some of 14 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: those topics about breakups and heartbreak and all that, and 15 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: we also dive into some more topics and talk about masculinity, 16 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: what it means to be a protector and all of 17 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: the things. So if you have not listen to part one, 18 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: press pause, go listen to part one, and then you 19 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: can listen to part two, because this was the way 20 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: that the actual conversation happened, so I just think it 21 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: would make more sense for you that way, and I 22 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: want to remind you, guys that if you are new 23 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: to JP Sachs and One, you're welcome, but too, you 24 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: need to follow him on Instagram. His Instagram handle is 25 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: at JP sacks s a x E. He has a 26 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: song that came out a couple of weeks ago called 27 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: when You Think of Me, and then he also has 28 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: very timely a song coming out this Friday called The 29 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: Good Parts, and we talk about some of that in 30 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: the conversation. So you're gonna want to definitely go follow 31 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: him on Instagram, and if you click on the link 32 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: in his bio, you can pre save that song and 33 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: you can in the meantime go listen to when You 34 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: Think of Me because it is such a good song. 35 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: So thank you JP for continuing this conversation, and thank 36 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: you guys for continuing to listen to this conversation. I 37 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: will talk to you guys on wednes Savor Couch Talks, 38 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: But in the meantime, here is part two of my 39 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: conversation with jps acts. I do have a question about 40 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 1: for you really actually as a man, what is it like? Woman? 41 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: Asked this generally, and then I'm gonna get a little 42 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: bit deeper, So what's it like just in our world 43 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,399 Speaker 1: being a man who has is this is an assumption, 44 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: but I assume that you have access to your feelings 45 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: and you're pretty emotionally literate. So what is it like 46 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: for you to be a man in this kind of toxic, 47 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: masculinity driven society who has feelings, who has access to them, 48 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: who talks about them, who writes about them, who sings 49 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: about them? What is that like for you? Is? Is 50 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: it all sunshine and rainbows? Is there a light in 51 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,959 Speaker 1: a dark side? I think I arrived at the analysis 52 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: of my emotions in a in a number of ways. 53 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: I'm not sure I actually feel my emotions nearly as 54 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: much is one would expect as someone who works with 55 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: the jurisdiction of emotions. I think part of the reason 56 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: that I developed the skill of articulating my emotions and 57 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 1: songs was because I didn't feel like I knew how 58 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: to actually embrace or feel them for a number of reasons. 59 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's like a lot of that 60 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: is growing up with an alcoholic parent, like my adolescence. 61 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: I learned conflict resolution and communication as an only child 62 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: with two parents A lot of the time under the 63 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: influence of something. My mom really struggled with alcoholism um 64 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: in my teenage years. My dad is best dad in 65 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: the world, but like can be rather conflict avoidant. So 66 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: that dynamic was me getting home from school at five 67 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: pm to just a a reverently drunk mom who I 68 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: learned as a twelve year old that if I said 69 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: the wrong thing that she would break ship or hit 70 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: me or leave and she could be got on for 71 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: three days and we wouldn't know what was going on. 72 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: But if I said the right thing and if I 73 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: treated her with if I like went about it exactly 74 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: the right way, then I could have like silly, drunk, 75 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: fun mom. But that could like flip like I could. 76 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 1: It could be one word and that would flip. But 77 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: I would make it a game for myself. I kind 78 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 1: of would get home and it was like a challenge, 79 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: and my dad would tell me, like, you know, you 80 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: have to be the mature one when I was like 81 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: eleven twelve, because you know she's not She's not going 82 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: to be so you have to you have to be 83 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: the mature one. And obviously there's an intense emotional reaction 84 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: as a kid to seeing your parents like that. But 85 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: I couldn't let myself feel that because if I the 86 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: worst thing I could say was something about how it 87 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: affected me, like that would be the most triggering thing 88 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: for her. So that was really my first experience with 89 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:58,239 Speaker 1: navigating emotionally tumultuous moments was having to channel my full 90 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: emotional experience through an intellectual lens to make sure I 91 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: said things in the right way. And I think that 92 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: did two things to me as a young adult. It 93 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: honed my ability to articulate my emotions even when they 94 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,239 Speaker 1: were very intense. It also made it very very hard 95 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: for me to have any sort of honest emotional reaction 96 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: without intellectualizing first. So that's like one of the challenges 97 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: of my life, but it's also one of the blessings 98 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: of my life because I think it frames my entire 99 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: profession as a songwriter. Yeah, and one, thanks for sharing that. 100 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,119 Speaker 1: I really appreciate that, And also thank you for sharing 101 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: that just in the sense that there I am have 102 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: a therapist assuming something about somebody and thinking that it 103 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: comes from one space when we really have no idea 104 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 1: the experiences we've had that led us to be the 105 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: humans that that we are. And so you have this 106 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: amazing skill of being able to write and articulate feelings 107 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: that people can also then you know, feel with you 108 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 1: and feel connected. But it comes from this like actually, 109 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to use this word and I don't know 110 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: if it's going to fit, So if it doesn't, just 111 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: let me know. It comes from the traumatic experience. So 112 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: it comes from a situation that we might not have 113 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: chosen and talk about like a weird dissonance. That's a 114 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: weird dissonance. Yeah, I mean, so to speak to the 115 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: rest of you, oppression also about like how that ties 116 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: into masculinity, I think, well, firstly, I think people falsely 117 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 1: equate being able to express your emotions in a song 118 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: with vulnerability. I don't personally think there's anything that vulnerable 119 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: about the songs because I have spent months crafting exactly 120 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: how I want to present those emotions. And to me, 121 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: my definition of vulnerable is allowing yourself to exist with 122 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: without all of the editing, and that is highly highly 123 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: edited emotional content, like highly like I craft. I spent 124 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 1: months crafting exactly how I want to articulate the emotion 125 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: that I am fitting into a song. Now, as a 126 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: person like that absolutely is rooted in I had to 127 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: when I was in my early twenties and trying to 128 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: unlearn the conflict resolution that I had developed through my mom. 129 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: In order to feel really anything, I needed to figure 130 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: out how to describe it to myself. I need to 131 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: describe it to myself in order to feel it. So yeah, 132 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: now I describe my emotions too through songs in a 133 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: way that then allows other people to feel it. But 134 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: it's really just me trying to show myself how to 135 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: feel it, and other people feel their emotions similarly to 136 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: the way I do. So that works in people who 137 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: listen to my music, But the area in my life 138 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: where I'm vulnerable is definitely not my music because it 139 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: even though they're about sensitive things or about personal things, 140 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: I've I've been so thoughtful about how I want to 141 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: craft it that it feels it feels safe, it feels intentional. 142 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: I was going to ask you, like, is there any 143 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: like regret in like writing a song about something and 144 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: then you have to like sing it all the time, 145 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: and maybe it's about a time that you don't want 146 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: to go back and and be in I can make 147 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: the assumption that might be wrong, that like maybe not 148 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: because of what you are just expressing of like this 149 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: is a pretty crafted thing, and I'm I'm sharing this 150 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: in a way that actually doesn't feel that vulnerable to me, 151 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: although I mean not that it's dishonest, right, it's there's 152 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: a difference, It's honest. It gives me anxiety because I know, 153 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: I know that I'm that not just for other people, 154 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: but for myself. I am time capsuling an emotion of 155 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: feeling that is going to represent for me personally, like 156 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: an era of my left on, an era of what 157 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: it felt like to be myself in a moment. So 158 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: I want to accurately depict that for myself. Where do 159 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,319 Speaker 1: you feel the most vulnerable? Like when do you feel 160 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: the most like this is the hard tough stuff. Yeah, 161 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: it's the moments that I don't get to, uh, that 162 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: I have to exist without really thinking through how I'm 163 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: going to exist yet just allowing myself to be unedited, unfiltered, unprepared. 164 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: What about it? Like live shows? I mean I love 165 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 1: live shows. I find it very stimulating. It's like it's 166 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: like a conversation, but you know, you get the added 167 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: charisma that you're given by the how stimulating it is 168 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: to be on stage in front of a lot of people. Okay, 169 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: Like there's a there's a personality I get to have 170 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: on stage that it's very hard to stimulate anywhere else 171 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: because of just the chemical implications of being in front 172 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: of that many people. Yeah, that's fair. I was going 173 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 1: to say at the Nashville show that was at I 174 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: don't know if you remember this, because I don't know 175 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: if you remember everything that happens on stage, But I 176 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: don't remember what song it was, but there was a 177 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: song that like you had like the audience sing part 178 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: of it, and then you ended up singing like the 179 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: same verse a couple of times. And I wouldn't even 180 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: I don't even want to call this a mess up 181 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: because the way that you orchestrated it was like, well, 182 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: this is kind of like the coolest moment of the show. 183 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: Like everybody was laughing. It felt like everybody was in 184 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: it together. You felt like a real person, even though 185 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: that was like you, we were you were closer to 186 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: us than some venues that you might plan, but like 187 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: you actually felt like a real person. You weren't robotic. 188 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: So does that feel vulnerable or is that a space 189 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:11,599 Speaker 1: where you like, I feel like I'm alive and I 190 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: can be myself and I can be messy even though 191 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: I'm performing. To be honest, I don't exactly know. Um, 192 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: maybe maybe I falsely equate vulnerability with discomfort. So it 193 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: feels weird to call that vulnerability because I feel very 194 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: comfortable in that space. But maybe that's like a false pretense. 195 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: I love that stuff, like I love when the shows 196 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: are spontaneous and different in exist in a way that 197 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: they're not going to exist in any other moment. And 198 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: I remember the moment you're talking about because it was 199 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: in three minutes. Okay, yes, yep. And there's the end 200 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: of the verses the I'm afraid you won't meet me halfway, 201 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: and I like chuckled, and I was like, I kind 202 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:50,679 Speaker 1: of went down like that, and then the next line, 203 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 1: You're afraid I won't know how to stay, and then 204 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: I also chuckled because it also went down like that, 205 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: And it just felt like there was this sad um 206 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: prophetic need sure to that moment of that song. And 207 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: then as I continue to perform the song, kept thinking 208 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: about that moment and then forgotten all of the words 209 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: to the second verse, and luckily people in the audience 210 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: knew it and helped I loved that, and I feel 211 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: like you don't see that a lot, and I don't 212 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: know what that means or or if that's even important, 213 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: But I was like, well, this is actually one of 214 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: the most memorable parts of the show, and I'm remembering 215 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: it in a good way. Let's actually go back to 216 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: that and just maybe you were talking about more of 217 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 1: like why your emotions really came about. But I actually 218 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: do really want to know, even if you don't feel 219 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: that way, even if you don't feel like you have 220 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: the access to your emotions the wapes people might assume 221 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: of you, what is it like, because I feel like 222 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,719 Speaker 1: a lot of the conversations around masculinity happen without men. 223 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: It's women talking about men, And I'm very interested what 224 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: is the perspective of the man, because while while women 225 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 1: are all genders really are affected by just patriarchy in 226 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: general and masculinity and general. We're affected, but you guys 227 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: are affected by it too, because there's expectations and how 228 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,839 Speaker 1: do we actually show up as authentic and love that 229 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: part of us if it doesn't meet expectations. So just 230 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: tell me what it's like to have feelings as a guy. 231 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the stereotype that men are not 232 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: emotional is so absurd because I think it acts as 233 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: if some feelings counts as emotional and some feelings don't, 234 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 1: as if, like you know, you picture your stereotypical like dude, 235 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: like ye know, cis gendered straight dude punching through a 236 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: wall in anger, and but that's just him like being 237 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: I don't know, manly, as if, like that's not it's 238 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: not emotional, being emotional, but like a woman can shed 239 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: a few tears in her car listening to a song, 240 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: and she's the hysterical one. Big air quotes on that 241 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: one for those people listening. But like as if, like 242 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: we've we've established that some emotions can be quote unquote 243 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: manly and some make you any version of the derogatory 244 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: sexist words that we call men. So yeah, that that 245 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,319 Speaker 1: spectrum is odd to me. I think, regardless of your gender, 246 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: whether you're non binary, or whether you're woman, whether you're man, 247 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: we live in a society that teaches us that some 248 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: emotions are more allowed than others in our identity. And 249 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,119 Speaker 1: also I think the idea that like emotions and intellect 250 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: are separate is just absurd as well, Like they're very 251 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: intertwined experience of ourselves, and there's all kinds of information 252 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: in your emotions that you get to then think about. 253 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 1: I live in a world where, like most of the 254 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:56,719 Speaker 1: most of the people around me are emotionally literate, big feeling, articulate, 255 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: people who are very rarely in this version of their 256 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: life told that they're being too much. But you don't 257 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: live in southern California, you know, you grew up in 258 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: any kind of small town. The version of what it 259 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: means to be a quote unquote man is a pretty 260 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: limited thing. But I also think that expanding on that 261 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: doesn't mean rejecting yet, because you know, maybe like you 262 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: saw your dad your uncle's in a certain way, and 263 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: there's things about who they are that you want to embrace. 264 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: I have like a bunch of non binary friends who 265 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: have not just rejected the stereotypes of what it means 266 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: to be a quote unquote man, they've rejected the identity 267 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: of man at all. But that doesn't mean that there 268 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: isn't things that about who they are that they've taken 269 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: from their dat's or their uncles or their grandfather's. Like 270 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: it's not a it's not a one or the other 271 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: thing it's not like, you know, you're either the super 272 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: masculine human in the way that you grew up learning 273 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: you're supposed to be, or you become this like sensitive 274 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: crying all the time, like weird stereotype. It's just all 275 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: deeply whack. Truth is, there are just so many ways 276 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: to be a person that lives on a spectrum that's 277 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: a lot wider than the parts of it that we 278 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: limit ourselves too. And figuring out what part of that 279 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: feels the most honest without the limitation of the perceived 280 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: judgment of certain emotions more than others is a really freeing, 281 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: really wonderful thing that I think makes you stronger as 282 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: a human being if you can embrace the individuality of that, 283 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: not weaker because here not being a quote unquote man. 284 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: There was a million things you just said, but one 285 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: what did you say? I need I needed to repeat 286 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: that catus. I liked it something about you can was 287 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: it like you just you can disagree with it without 288 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: rejecting it, like you can keep parts of it. I 289 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: like that idea that like we don't have to completely 290 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: like abolish masculinity to not live in this like one 291 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: or the other world exactly. I mean, that's that's the 292 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: exciting part of it. It's not like like, well, TOSSI 293 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: masculinity fucked, masculinity fucked. You know, I'm abandoning all of that. 294 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: It's not like that. It's it's it's finding the parts 295 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: of your emotional experience that feel the most authentic to 296 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: yourself and not limiting that to the boundaries that you 297 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: know you have been taught growing up. Now that's not 298 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: easy to do, especially, you know, if you know, for 299 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: better or worse, I have the blessing of not being 300 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: tied to too many expectations of my very small family. 301 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: So it's I recognize that there's a challenge to existing 302 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: in opposition to the expectations of a lot of people 303 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: around you. There's a free component that you're talking about, 304 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: and then there's a grief component to for a lot 305 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: of people because leaning into this idea that we don't 306 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: have to be one or the other, we don't have 307 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: to be two things, this isn't right, and that that's wrong. 308 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: By buying freedom for that, you might be grieving certain relationships, 309 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: certain expectations that you might even have for yourself. Ideas 310 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: like means to an ends for certain things when we 311 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: are not groomed isn't the right word. But when we 312 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: are brought up in a culture where there are these 313 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: two things that feel really stable, and then we realize 314 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: because these two things don't neither feels like right or safe, 315 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: we still feel really uncomfortable in the process giving out 316 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: of it. Right, So like, I can feel actually safer 317 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: in this place where I don't have to live in 318 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: these lines drawn for me, but it also might be 319 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,959 Speaker 1: way more uncomfortable. And I think a lot of times 320 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: people get those confused where if I'm uncomfortable, that means 321 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: I'm not safe, but actually this is safer. It just 322 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: feels weird and there's some loss in that, and loss 323 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: is uncomfortable. So for you personally, not everybody's experience is 324 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: going to be like yours. And so I don't want 325 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: you to feel like you have to qualify it. But 326 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: what do you think were the things in your system 327 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: and your community that let you kind of move outside 328 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: of those lines that society kind of draws or definitely draws. 329 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: I am very lucky to be to be rewarded for 330 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: embracing my emotional experience of the world. I also get 331 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: to think about my feelings all of the time, like 332 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 1: it's my job, because it is, I mean, just like 333 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: you do. Like we we live in a world where 334 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: we get to think about our feelings twelve hours a 335 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: day if we want to. That is not the reality 336 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: for most people. Most people go to a job that 337 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: doesn't leave very much room for them to be thinking 338 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: about their emotional experience of the world because they've got 339 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: shipped to do. And therefore, you have a couple hours 340 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: on either side of a job where there is space 341 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: to explore your emotions, and it's also exhausting, and you're 342 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 1: coming home to a couple of hours where you probably 343 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: still have all kinds of things to do, whether it 344 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 1: be the rules of your family or any number of things. 345 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: All that to say, the amount of time of the 346 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: day where there is left to be analytic all about 347 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: your emotional experience is pretty small, and it's probably parts 348 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: of the day where you're already exhausted from everything else 349 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 1: you had to do to just exist in that reality. 350 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: Is where I think artists provide value because we get 351 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: to spend we have to spend a lot of time 352 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: analyzing our emotions, so we can distill it into something 353 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: that becomes a little window for someone to get to 354 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: those parts of themselves a little faster. So maybe I 355 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: spend months thinking about a feeling, so I can capture 356 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: that feeling in a three minute song. So when you 357 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 1: get home at the end of your day exhausted, you can, 358 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: you know, sit in your bedroom or listen to that 359 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: song and access that feeling in yourself with a little 360 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 1: bit more ease, without having to spend all that time 361 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 1: to get there, because an artist spent all that time 362 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: to get there for you and help you get there. 363 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: That that is like, if I were to romanticize where 364 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 1: I feel purposeful as an artist, it's in that process. 365 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: I don't even think that's romantics. That seems pretty fact 366 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: all to me. You are providing a really valuable service 367 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: to a lot of people. Thanks. I'm grateful I get 368 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: to do it. I think I think poets do it. 369 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: I think filmmakers do it. I think writers do it. 370 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 1: I think I think that's why it's important for artists 371 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: to face the more difficult elements of their emotional experience, 372 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's why you know when people 373 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: ask me like, is it hard to write about the 374 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: most difficult parts of your life? Is it hard to 375 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: write about these difficult feelings. It's like it feels the 376 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: most purposeful when it's more difficult. I really like that 377 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: it feels more purposeful when it's difficult. If this was 378 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: like no big deal, would be like, oh I could 379 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: do this with my eyes closed, Like what does it matter? 380 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: I want to go back though, to what you said 381 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: in the very beginning of about you think it's kind 382 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: of silly that people say mental have emotions, because I 383 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 1: agree with you, and I think we've categorized certain emotions 384 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: as masculine and pentomine, that that one's okay to have, 385 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: that one's not okay. But you're right, and if we 386 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: actually open up space to look around us and see 387 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: things more clearly, we would see that every day. But 388 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 1: because of the boxes people get put in like think 389 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 1: about fear or I think not any feeling and in 390 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 1: to me, the way I view emotions is that feelings 391 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: are guides and they kind of like lead us to 392 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: what we need. So if I'm feeling something that's saying like, hey, hey, 393 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: there's something going on, there's something that you need, let's 394 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: tend to it. And so if we only let men 395 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 1: feel certain things like anger, it can even be seen 396 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: as like cool or like oh yeah, like he's protective 397 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: and he's this, and and there's a whole thing about 398 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 1: men and protection that I won't go down. Well, if 399 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: men are only allowed to feel that, they don't get 400 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: to explore like what the actual like what's underneath any 401 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: of that, while women can sometimes And if you're not 402 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: in one of those boxes, then who knows what your 403 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 1: rules are? And maybe there are like a mixture of them, 404 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 1: and that makes it even more confusing. But what happens 405 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: if I, like, for example, if I am have road rage. 406 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: I use this example all the time. I want to 407 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 1: know your thoughts on this. If I am driving in 408 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: let's say, for the sake of this conversation, I'm a dude. 409 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 1: Somebody who cuts me off and I'm like piss and 410 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 1: I haunt my horn, I flip them off, I'm like 411 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: fuck you man, and blah blah blah blah blahlah whatever. Okay, 412 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: most people, that's road rage, that's rage. Most people would say, okay, 413 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 1: like rage anger, Like Okay, that's where it stops and 414 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: there's nothing else going on there. But what I actually 415 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: think if we were to boil that down and the 416 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: feelings were like equal and free for everybody. Is it 417 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: really anger that's there or is there something else? Because 418 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: when somebody cuts you off, what happens is you maybe 419 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: you almost gotten a wreck, or maybe you like almost 420 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: split your coffee or like who knows what happened. But 421 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: a lot of times underneath that rage is fear. And 422 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: fear is an emotion that is like so wonderful because 423 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: it one it can protect us, but also it shows 424 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 1: us what's important to us. And sometimes that's just basically 425 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: our life is important to us. But what we do 426 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: is like men don't get to go down that like 427 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: ladder and see like okay that actually I was scared, 428 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: and um, what do I need? Well, if I'm scared, 429 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,360 Speaker 1: do I need do I need protection? Do I need care? 430 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: Do I need comfort? No, you can't need that because 431 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: you're supposed to protect and you're apposed to care and 432 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 1: your switch to it and so all of that to 433 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: say is is it's not that personally, and I see 434 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: it's not that men don't have these emotions that men 435 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: are Emotionally. When anybody says like oh I'm not very emotional, 436 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: No you are, you just kind of like stifle yourself 437 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: and you put all your emotions in this box, and 438 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: then everything else is living underneath a rock somewhere that 439 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: might explode at any given moment. I have a couple 440 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: of thoughts on that, and I want to speak specifically 441 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: to the protectiveness you mentioned, because we were talking about 442 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: it a bit earlier too. In my own experience, whether 443 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: you're man, non binary woman, I think all of us 444 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: feel protective of the people we love. But in the 445 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: context right now of cis gendered man, there is absolutely 446 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 1: that stereotype of we are the detector. I actually don't 447 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: think that's one that if you feel, if if that 448 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: comes naturally to you, you feel you want to protect 449 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: your family, that's a beautiful thing. I don't think anyone's 450 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: suggesting you should not feel that way. I think that 451 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: the exciting part of the conversation is it's just maybe 452 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: expand what that means to protect to the people you love. 453 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,239 Speaker 1: You know, sure like that occasionally we mean you were 454 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: physically protecting the people you love, Depending on where you live, 455 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: probably not very often. But why why can't your desire 456 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: and your nature to be a protector, Why can't that 457 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: apply to protecting someone's emotional safety? Someone's safety in themselves, 458 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:50,479 Speaker 1: you know, because that's where we live on a daily basis. 459 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: You know, you're a man in a relationship with the woman. 460 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: You want to make that woman feel safe. It isn't 461 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 1: that safety like a safety to be herself? And may 462 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: king her feel safe to be herself means showing up 463 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: to her as a good listen to her, showing up 464 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: for her with consistency, with affection, like that's being a protector. 465 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: So I don't think it's about like when we talked about, 466 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: you know, we're not throwing out the baby with the 467 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: bath water on some of these stereotypes. It's not all bad. 468 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 1: It's just a little bit of redefinition of like how 469 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: we shape protector. It was about a year ago, maybe 470 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 1: actually probably a year and a half ago. I had 471 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,880 Speaker 1: a conversation with Justin Baldoni, who wrote this book Man Enough. 472 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: I mean, his podcast is freaking incredible. So I was 473 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: asking him. I don't remember what I asked. He kind 474 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: of like gave it to me straight. He's so great 475 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: and he's an expert on on this. It's what he's 476 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: spending his life work on. And I don't know what 477 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,479 Speaker 1: I asked him, but he went on this kind of like, um, 478 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't a ramp, but he just said it was 479 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: so much like that. I was like, yes, but I 480 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: think I was talking about how like, if I'm dating 481 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: a man, I want him to be a emotional I 482 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: want to be able to have emotional conversations. And there 483 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: also is that part of me that's like, well, we 484 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: can't be too emotional, so I want him to cry, 485 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: but like I want him to cry at certain things. 486 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,439 Speaker 1: And it's a whole thing that I've had a dismantle myself. 487 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: And he was like yeah, because there's um this experience 488 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: that we're all going through, and we're all all kind 489 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: of working working through some most some of us are 490 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 1: where like a woman feels like she needs to be protected, 491 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: and so when we see something that is in our 492 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: society deemed as weak, which is again emotions are seen 493 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: as weak, where I see them as like these are tools, 494 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: these are guides, are amazing things, but if you show 495 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: too much of them or you can't control them with 496 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 1: air quotes, then there becomes this fear of the woman 497 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: that the man can't protect me. And he went down 498 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: this whole rabbit trail around like, well, why do we 499 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 1: actually need to be protected because there are there's other 500 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: men out there that we do feel need we need 501 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: to be protected from. So I say all that because 502 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: with the idea that wait, there's other ways that somebody 503 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: can protect me. I might be in a relationship with 504 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: somebody who could like literally take anybody out. If somebody 505 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: tries to like hurt me in any physical way, he 506 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: can like karate chop, you know, like get figure that out. 507 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: But I have haven't told them huge parts of me, 508 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: Like I don't feel safe enough to like actually share 509 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: with them experiences that I had or beliefs that I 510 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: have about myself, or I still feel like I have 511 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: to perform to be wanted by that person, or I 512 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: can't I can't show certain emotions else this person is 513 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: going to think ex of me. So you're bringing in 514 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: this amazing idea and I'm so obsessed with looking outwards 515 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: and really digging into their meaning like protection. Why are 516 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: we thinking about that in this one way? When if 517 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: you don't feel like you can be yourself with your partner, 518 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: no matter what gender they identify with, you're not protected, right, 519 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: I mean I agree completely, And if you're you know, 520 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: if you're listening to this as someone who feels a 521 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: sense of you feel a desire to be a protector 522 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: for someone you're in a relationship with, which I definitely do. 523 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: What does that mean other than make your partner feel safe? 524 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: That's what that means. To protect someone means make them 525 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,439 Speaker 1: feel safe. What is on a daily basis it mean 526 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 1: to make your partner feel safe? Right? Like that can 527 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 1: be so very many things. Yeah, it doesn't mean beat 528 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: up the guy down the street, Like, that's not what 529 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: it means at all the majority. I mean maybe once 530 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: a year, if you live in the right neighborhood, it 531 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: means that. But like on a daily basis, it probably 532 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: means emotional things. It probably means being in touch enough 533 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: with your emotions that your partner isn't going to feel 534 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: judged when they share theirs with you. And to just 535 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: to what you're saying with justin Baldonia, I mean, I 536 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: love him, big fan, Like cannot wait to meet him, 537 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: would love to talk. You need to be on his podcast. 538 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: I would love to be on his You would be 539 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: a perfect guest, like when he cries on that podcast, 540 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: Like there's something revolutionary about that. But also I think 541 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: there's a nuance to that that like being in touch 542 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: with your emotions as a quote unquote man doesn't just 543 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: mean like every time you feel something you cry. It 544 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: means when you were in a setting where it is 545 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: safe to do so, you aren't stopping yourself because of 546 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: the way you've internalized what it means to be a man. 547 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: No one's saying that, like, you know, you should, you know, 548 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: someone should say something hurtful to you on the job, 549 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: and then you should just start crying, you know, Like 550 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: that's that's not that's not emotional regulation. That's not what 551 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: anyone's fighting for. It's why like even when you hear 552 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: athletes like you know, this might be like slightly controversial 553 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: amongst the community around with shaping masculinity, but like you know, 554 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: when athletes say, like, you know, you don't cry on 555 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: the court, that's a different like you can be discerning 556 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: about this, like, yeah, maybe it does show weakness to 557 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: cry on a sports field like that, but that's a 558 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: different fucking setting than you get home, you have a 559 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: your with your family or your partner or your children, 560 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: and something really sad happens, whatever it is, you're having 561 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: a conversation about trauma, you're having a conversation about, you know, 562 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: issues in your youth. You're having a conversation about someone 563 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: who's past in that setting. Strife can mean crying in 564 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: that setting, because it's weak to think you can't be 565 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,239 Speaker 1: seen that way. It's weak to not be secure enough 566 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: to let the people you love be seen that way. 567 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: Like redefined masculinity doesn't mean we're just walking around sobbing 568 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: all the time, which we have to be discerning. Right again, 569 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: that goes we're not getting rid of it, and I you, 570 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: you're opening up a whole other conversation which I won't 571 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: take you completely down. But I have this real like 572 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: thing about intimacy and vulnerability and like, yeah, we have 573 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: where there's a movement and Burnet Brown is leading the 574 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: pack and we need it. Yeah, we need to actually 575 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: like access that part of us and it is very important. 576 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: And I don't need to tell my trauma to every 577 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: single person I meet or go on a date with, 578 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: or see or thinks nice or or find funny. Like 579 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: that's first of all, that's not intimacy and vulnerability. That's 580 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: just information sharing. That can be trauma dumping. That's trauma 581 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: dump beings, not intimacy and so I think that we 582 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: have as as we are like redefining a lot of 583 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: things right now, which is so important. What we're doing 584 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: is we're taking out that discernment part. We're just putting 585 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: we're going from over here to over here. And first 586 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: of all, that's terrifying for a lot of people, and 587 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: so some people are just like, no, not doing that. 588 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: You want me to cry everywhere I go. No, I'm 589 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: not doing that. Well great, because we're not asking you to. 590 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: So thank you for saying that, Because you're right, there 591 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: are spaces where actually, if I want to like access 592 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: that part of me that I feel like it's shut down, 593 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: I have to do it in places that are life. 594 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: So if it's not safe to do it, like literally, 595 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: like if I want to learn how to be vulnerable, 596 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: I need to do it in places that are safe. 597 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: Because if I'm vulnerable to every person I meet, I'm 598 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: gonna have a lot of experiences that say, hey, don't 599 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: do that anymore. And then I'm going to create, whether 600 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: it's a trauma bond or a belief about myself. And 601 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: it's the same thing with masculinity of of maybe one 602 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: day there will there will be a space where, like 603 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: we don't even have to have these conversations and everybody 604 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: is just like a bubble of love. But that's not 605 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: where we are right now, and so because of that 606 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: we have to we have to actually like track and say, Okay, 607 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: this is a space where like this is welcome. And 608 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: maybe that's even stretching it too far. Maybe it's sometimes 609 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: it's not welcome and I still can be myself and 610 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: there's work to be done around that. But I have 611 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: to have the ability to say, wait, I believe that 612 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: this is an okay part of me, but this isn't 613 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: the place to do that because it would be harmful 614 00:32:54,360 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: to do it here. I have to have the ability 615 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: to say, wait, I believe that this is an okay 616 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: part of me, but this isn't the place to do 617 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: that because it would be harmful to do it. Year. Yeah, 618 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: and that's hard. That is that is a hard thing 619 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: to go about doing because being able to differentiate between 620 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: good discomfort like uncomfortable but pushed through discomfort and I 621 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: don't know discomfort, don't do that anymore bad. That's hard. 622 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: Knowing the difference is hard, and you make mistakes in that, 623 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: oh totally. Also being discerning is hard. Being not looking 624 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: at things in the binary is hard because sure, it's 625 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: it's simpler to be like, Okay, this is what I 626 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: was taught. Being a one of the two genders means 627 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: growing up in whatever framework of a mentality I've I've 628 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: grown up in. It's easier to be like, okay, Like 629 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: living a life correctly means just doing that, But dismantling 630 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: that means there's now a lot more options, which requires 631 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: a lot more thought and fitting into you know, what 632 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: does it mean to be myself separate from the things 633 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: that I've learned to be myself within, but not completely separate? 634 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,320 Speaker 1: Like also, what do I still want to take from that? 635 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,879 Speaker 1: Like that that's just that's a lot of work. Yeah, 636 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: And I think that's why, you know, I don't really 637 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: have all that much judgment for people who, you know, 638 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,720 Speaker 1: haven't found that or are like a little bit adverse 639 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: to it, because it makes sense, like it's challenging, it's 640 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: not an easy it's not like you just do it thing. Yeah. 641 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: I wish that it was that way, but it's not 642 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: at all. And as we go through those spaces, what 643 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: people maybe don't talk about as much is that the 644 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: more you open yourself up. The more I've opened myself up, 645 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: the more people are going to open themselves up to 646 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: like expanding their view of what they can be and 647 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: how they can be. The more you're also opening yourself 648 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: up for criticism and judgment and speculation and all the 649 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: things that don't feel great. And we have to learn 650 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,320 Speaker 1: and it's a pre says, we have to learn that 651 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,839 Speaker 1: like people agreeing with us or people under even understanding 652 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: us isn't like a measure of like doing it right. 653 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: Like just because somebody understands me, they might have the 654 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: wrong idea. And I have to stop basing my actions 655 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 1: and my the way I go out and experience the 656 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,760 Speaker 1: world on other people's understanding of how I'm living, because 657 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:26,760 Speaker 1: you're never in There's no way to get a hundred 658 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 1: percent accuracy on people understanding you and agreeing with you. 659 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: There's no way. But the more I'm going to kind 660 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,760 Speaker 1: of color outside of those lines, the more people won't 661 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: get me right now. And that's tough. Yeah, I mean, 662 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: even like calling back to something we were talking about 663 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: a while ago, like the subject matter of my new 664 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 1: music it's a little bit a tad more controversial than 665 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 1: the subject matter of my last album. This is true 666 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: because the nuances of being left are far more explored 667 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 1: in songwriting than the nuances of leaving. I want to say, 668 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: like you're doing the Lord's work because like, no, people 669 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: aren't talking about that. That's an exaggeration. But like I 670 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 1: when I listened to your your new song the first 671 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: time I listened to it, I literally texted my friends 672 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: and I said, well, if somebody's going to break up 673 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: with me, this is how I would want them to 674 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: do it right. And I know it's like not that simple, 675 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: because again I might be that person on the other 676 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: side that's like, this doesn't make sense, Like I might 677 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: not have learned this idea that you're placing out there yet, 678 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: and it's not an idea that's talked about, and for 679 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: people to actually understand it, we have to talk about it. 680 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: And I understand why it's not as talked about or 681 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: explored because we villainize the people who have left us. 682 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: Not all of us do, but a lot of us 683 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: villainize the people who have left us. And I understand 684 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 1: why because anger is I think, easier to feel than sadness. 685 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,240 Speaker 1: It's very hard to be sad at someone. You can't 686 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: be sad at someone. You can be angry at someone. 687 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: So if you're if you have a meant sadness, I 688 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,760 Speaker 1: think you because you can't be sad at you convert 689 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,240 Speaker 1: that sadness into something else and that's when you project. 690 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: That makes sense. But it's the vantage point that I 691 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: have right now, and I do feel creatively purposeful in 692 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,760 Speaker 1: exploring it right now because it does feel under explored. 693 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: But that doesn't come with any that doesn't come with 694 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: the lack of recognition that being on the other side 695 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 1: of things is fucking horrible. It's fucking horrible, and it 696 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 1: doesn't I have no lack of empathy for how horrible 697 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: it is to be on the other side of these songs. 698 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: Do you feel less supported in the music you're making 699 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: right now because of that? It's it's a really good question. 700 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 1: I do feel it's been a bit polarizing. You know 701 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: the responses too. I mean, I put a one song 702 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 1: from this body of work, but there's quite a lot 703 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: more that explores the nuances of the emotional experience. But 704 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: on this song on when you think of me, you know, 705 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: it's kind of either been like fuck you, fuck this, 706 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: or it's been this helped me understand the end of 707 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: relationship in a way that he would have never been 708 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 1: able to explain to me. And I'm so grateful or actually, 709 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: one of my favorite ones was this helped me forgive 710 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 1: someone who I don't know if he deserved it, but 711 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 1: I needed to forgive him for myself. And these are 712 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: the words he never would have said to me. You know, 713 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: like that obviously, as as feedback is really meaningful, but 714 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: you know, I get it, and I my goal is 715 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: not to be defensive. My goal is not to be like, hey, 716 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: like you, you know, you're demonizing the person in the 717 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 1: role of walking away, and here's all the reasons why 718 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: you shouldn't. I'm not even trying to say that, but 719 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: I guess I am saying too. I just I don't 720 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,839 Speaker 1: know's there's not even like a mission statement, and it's 721 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 1: just I think that there is maybe not a mission statement, 722 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,879 Speaker 1: but there is a lot of power. And again, I've 723 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 1: only heard this one's songs. I'm very interested in hearing more. 724 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: But there is a perspective that again, like I have 725 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 1: not heard and it doesn't necessarily apply to my situations 726 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,800 Speaker 1: where I've wanted to hate somebody, but I can totally 727 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: understand and and sit in a space where I'm like, 728 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: oh my God, Like maybe he isn't this horrible, bad, 729 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 1: terrible guy that needs to do whatever or a girl 730 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: that needs to do whatever, or maybe there is this 731 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 1: space that can that somebody can co exist and live. 732 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 1: And maybe maybe that doesn't make it easier for me 733 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: to feel, but it actually leads me to healing a 734 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,720 Speaker 1: lot faster. If a relationship ends and there isn't abuse, 735 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,760 Speaker 1: like setting aside when there is abuse, because that's different. 736 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 1: So when when a relationship ends without abeus and there 737 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,399 Speaker 1: isn't infidelity, there isn't you know, any of the ugly 738 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,839 Speaker 1: ways of relationship can end. There's just two people tragically 739 00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: growing apart, tragically growing apart in a way that neither 740 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 1: of them wanted, and one person recognized that recognizes that 741 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: in a way that the other doesn't want to or 742 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 1: doesn't want to accept. It's it's an it's extraordinarily painful thing. 743 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 1: And I don't know very many songs that recognize that 744 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 1: love can be over and also real. And for me, 745 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: that is a that is a more peaceful place to exist. 746 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 1: Now I know it's a lot easier for me to 747 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: exist there having it been my decision. And it's a 748 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: lot harder to come to that awareness when it's something 749 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: that happened that you didn't want to happen. And I 750 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: recognize that, and I have empathy for that. But for me, 751 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: in either of my last two relationships, like I have 752 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 1: no interest in looking back at those relationships and in 753 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:53,920 Speaker 1: trying to write over beautiful memories with you know, the 754 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: filter of disdain, Like I don't want to do that. 755 00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: It makes me sad, well, yes, because I I think 756 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: a struggle that I no longer have is that in 757 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 1: a relationship, even if when it did end poorly, I 758 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 1: still had so many good moments, like so many good 759 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 1: memories and so many good experiences, and I felt the 760 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: need to tarnish them all and say that they were 761 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: all alive. But like, wait a second, we did really 762 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: care about each other when we went on that trip, 763 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: and really we did laugh a lot, and we did 764 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: do that thing, and we did make that and and 765 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: we did go to that place. And I don't have 766 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 1: to ruin all of those memories because that was me 767 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 1: living my life and that was a part of my 768 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: life I really liked. And that's really hard for people. 769 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: And I think there's like so much freedom in this 770 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 1: idea you're putting out there. We're like, wait, wait, wait, 771 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 1: wait wait, you don't have to do that. Those things 772 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 1: can still all be really really good, and those can 773 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: be memories that you hold on forever. Maybe you can't 774 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: feel maybe you can't sit with those right now, maybe 775 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 1: you need some time, but like, you don't have to 776 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: throw those away, And it's easier for us to say 777 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 1: I need I remember saying going through a breakup, like 778 00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: I wish you would have just cheated on me, or 779 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,040 Speaker 1: I wish you would have done this I because I 780 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 1: just want to hate him so much, because it would 781 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 1: have been easier for me to throw everything away than 782 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:07,880 Speaker 1: realize that parts of that were good and it just 783 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: wasn't gonna work. Yeah, I mean I think that's exactly it. 784 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: I think that's exactly it. Yeah, but you hadn't written 785 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 1: this song yet, so I had to figure that on 786 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,880 Speaker 1: my own. I mean, you know, I mean, it's exactly 787 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 1: what you said. It's just it's easier to tell yourself 788 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,320 Speaker 1: that it was all a lie than it is to 789 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 1: come to terms with something that was really beautiful and 790 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,359 Speaker 1: you don't get to have it anymore. But you did 791 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 1: have it. Yeah, well we're just going to end this 792 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: one on a on a sad happy note, a mixture 793 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 1: that that's the boat and that like that, there's good 794 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: and there's Ikey and all of this, And I think 795 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: that is like the great risk we take, right, that's 796 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,919 Speaker 1: the great risk we take with any relationship, that any 797 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: relationship can end or change or shift, And we get 798 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:51,840 Speaker 1: to make the choice do we want to risk that 799 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 1: or do we want to live with this like pit 800 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 1: or this desire or this longing that we just refuse 801 00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 1: to let ourselves follow. We get to make those decisions. 802 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: Yeah it's Thomas. Yeah, hey, this was so nice. Thank 803 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: you for having me. Oh this was amazing. I feel 804 00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 1: like I could talk to you for ten years, but 805 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: I assume you have things to do, and I might 806 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: have other things to do as well,