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Speaker 1: We all know that free speech is under attack in America.

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Speaker 1: We all saw how the government intervened heading into the

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty election trying to stifle the Hunter Biden story.

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Speaker 1: We also saw during COVID how the government intervened to

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Speaker 1: try to censor dissent on COVID. So we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk to a woman who has fought for free speech

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Speaker 1: before the Supreme Court three cases.

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Speaker 2: In fact. Her name is Kristin Wagner.

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Speaker 1: She's the CEO and president of Alliance Defending Freedom. She

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Speaker 1: just won a big case for free speech, a huge

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Speaker 1: victory that was just handed down. The case is called

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Speaker 1: three zero three Creative LLC versus ellenis Lorie Smith, who

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Speaker 1: she was the main counsel for as a Christian graphic

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Speaker 1: artist and website designer who believes in traditional marriage. We're

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Speaker 1: going to talk to Kristin about that case, free speech

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Speaker 1: in America, and why more Americans don't support free speech today.

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Speaker 1: We've seen sentiments change a little bit, particularly among young people,

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Speaker 1: So why is that. Stay tuned for Kristin Waggon. Kristen,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for coming on the show. This is

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Speaker 1: the first time you're coming on, so I appreciate you

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Speaker 1: joining us.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: What's it like?

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Speaker 1: This is the third case you've argued before the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court that we're about to get into. Three h three

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Speaker 1: Creative LLC Versus eleenis what's it like to argue before

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court?

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Speaker 3: It's a great privilege. I think that any lawyer.

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Speaker 4: That has argued before the Court, regardless of their ideological perspectives,

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Speaker 4: would have to conceive that those nine justices are the

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Speaker 4: best and the brightest.

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Speaker 3: And it's sort of like a lawyer super bowl.

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Speaker 4: You want to be at your peak and you know

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Speaker 4: that you'll get great questions and that the justices will

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Speaker 4: thoughtfully consider the argument.

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Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about this case, what started it?

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Speaker 1: Break it down a little bit for us.

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Speaker 3: Sure well. Laurie Smith is a creative artist.

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Speaker 4: She launched her career as a graphic and website designer

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Speaker 4: working for of all people or of all institutions, the

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Speaker 4: government of Colorado, which is who she ended up suing

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Speaker 4: in this case. And then as she began her career,

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Speaker 4: began to realize that she wanted to be able to

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Speaker 4: own her own business and design websites that were consistent

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Speaker 4: with her beliefs that promoted projects and ideas that she

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Speaker 4: felt like should be promoted in the public square. So

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Speaker 4: she launched three h three Creative and that's a website

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Speaker 4: and graphic design firm. They create custom websites for all

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Speaker 4: kinds of different projects. In twenty sixteen, she wanted to

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Speaker 4: begin to expand the business into custom wedding websites, and

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Speaker 4: Laurie had a front row seat to see what Colorado's

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Speaker 4: position on that would be, as it was aggressively prosecuting

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Speaker 4: Jack Phillips of Masterpiece Cake Shop during that time, and

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Speaker 4: Colorado said that if an artist was creating custom speech

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Speaker 4: that would promote their face view on marriage between a

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Speaker 4: man and a woman, that they must also accept and

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Speaker 4: create custom messages about weddings that they disagreed with and

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Speaker 4: that violated their faith. And so Laurie filed a case

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Speaker 4: against Colorado, claiming arguing that the law was unjust and unconstitutional,

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Speaker 4: and that went to the US Supreme Court.

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Speaker 2: It seems like a lot.

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Speaker 1: Of these cases are coming out of Colorado just because

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Speaker 1: there are a bunch of you know, commie liberals or

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Speaker 1: what's the detail.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, I do think it's unusual the aggressive

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Speaker 4: posture that Colorado has taken in these cases, not just

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Speaker 4: in Laurie's case, but for the last twelve years, including.

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Speaker 3: In Jack Phillips case.

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Speaker 4: Jack is now on his third case involving this issue.

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Speaker 3: But it wouldn't be true to say it's only Colorado.

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Speaker 4: A number of left leaning states are misusing non discrimination

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Speaker 4: laws and they're using them as what weapons to silence

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Speaker 4: and punish those who have a different view of sexual

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Speaker 4: ethics than those in power. So we have cases involving

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Speaker 4: photographers and bloggers and filmmakers and calligraphers and painters, and

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Speaker 4: some of those people even face jail time if they

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Speaker 4: don't create messages that violate their convictions.

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Speaker 1: And what's it like for you know, Lourie Smith or

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Speaker 1: Jack Phillips to go through this. I mean, obviously they're slandered,

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Speaker 1: they're smeared, they're labeled as big as what's this been

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Speaker 1: like for them?

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Speaker 3: It's horrible, you know.

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Speaker 4: Even since the victory at the US Supreme Court that

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Speaker 4: we had a few weeks ago, which was a broad

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Speaker 4: victory for everyone, Laurie has faced all kinds of death

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Speaker 4: threats and.

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Speaker 3: Just horrible things.

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Speaker 4: And I think the media has misrepresented, not unintentionally but

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Speaker 4: actually intentionally misrepresented what the Court's decision was and the

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Speaker 4: facts of Laurie's case. Because Laurie serves everyone, She designs

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Speaker 4: messages for people from all walks of life. She has

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Speaker 4: clients who identifies LGBT right now. She always makes her

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Speaker 4: decisions about what speech to create based on the message

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Speaker 4: that she's being asked to speak and to create. And

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Speaker 4: that's a distinction that's very important in this area of

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Speaker 4: the law. It's about the message, not the person.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think the media goes to such lengths

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Speaker 1: to distore and smear in these particular cases.

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Speaker 4: In particular, I think there's an effort to delegitimize the

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Speaker 4: Supreme Court, and there is an effort to ensure that

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Speaker 4: anyone who believes marriages between a man and a woman,

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Speaker 4: or who ascribes to the traditional sexual ethics that are

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Speaker 4: articulated in all of the Abrahamic face that if they

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Speaker 4: can compare those people to bigots and suggests that it's

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Speaker 4: not about the message and malign them, they'll somehow be

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Speaker 4: able to silence and shut down the debate on these issues.

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Speaker 2: You've been following this for a long time.

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Speaker 1: Free speech in America is it under attack?

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Speaker 4: It absolutely is under attack, and thankfully the court said

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Speaker 4: in the three or three creative decision that no one

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Speaker 4: can be forced to say something that they don't believe.

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Speaker 4: Laurie didn't just stand for her own rights, but the

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Speaker 4: person who identifies as LGBT and who's a website designer,

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Speaker 4: this protects her rights as well not to have to

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Speaker 4: create a message that violates her convictions. Or even we

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Speaker 4: can think along political ideology lines because these laws, some

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Speaker 4: of these laws cover political ideology. Had Laurie lost her case,

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Speaker 4: a Democrat or a Republican could be forced to have

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Speaker 4: to write speeches for the opposite party.

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Speaker 3: And lastly, I'll just say at ADF, we're in international ministry.

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Speaker 4: We have about four hundred and fifty team members and

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Speaker 4: we're around the globe. We're mainly known for our US work,

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Speaker 4: but by having a bird's eye view in the world

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Speaker 4: as to what's going on, we are the last country

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Speaker 4: in the Western world that is resisting the kind of

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Speaker 4: government censorship that is blanketing Europe and Canada, New Zealand

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Speaker 4: and Australia.

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Speaker 3: So we have to stand for free speech in this moment.

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Speaker 1: Think there's been a shift, as you noted what do

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Speaker 1: you think that stems from.

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Speaker 3: You know, I heard a quote the other day.

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Speaker 4: I think it was from Archbishop Shappoo, but I haven't

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Speaker 4: been able to validate where it came from. But it

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Speaker 4: essentially says something to the effect of evil preaches tolerance

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Speaker 4: until it becomes until it has power, and then it

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Speaker 4: turns into coercion or something like that. And I really

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Speaker 4: do believe that we're seeing right now. Some are misguided,

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Speaker 4: but other are intentional about it. Those who are in

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Speaker 4: power try to use the law as a weapon to silence, punish,

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Speaker 4: and censor enemies, and in that vein I think it's

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Speaker 4: important to realize when you look around the world, the

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Speaker 4: first thing that tyrants do is shut down the right

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Speaker 4: of free speech because it prohibits dissent. And that's what

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Speaker 4: this is about right now, is whether those in power

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Speaker 4: will be able to use the law to silence dissent

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Speaker 4: and to shut down debate.

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Speaker 2: Do you think any of.

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Speaker 1: It aligns with a decline in religion in the country.

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Speaker 3: Think think that the.

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Speaker 4: Effort to coerce people to violate their convictions about sexual

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Speaker 4: ethics does have something to do with the decline of religion.

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Speaker 4: I also think that we in some quarters have begun

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Speaker 4: to translate fundamental rights into any right that has to

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Speaker 4: do with a desire that we want, and that it's

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Speaker 4: okay to silence other people that don't agree with us.

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Speaker 4: So I think historically religious principles have taught us. The

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Speaker 4: Judaeo Christian model teaches us that free speech is an

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Speaker 4: inalienable right. Religious freedom is an innalien right and it

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Speaker 4: extends to everyone, not just those who believe, and we're

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Speaker 4: seeing an effort to sidestep that right now and abandon

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Speaker 4: those tenants.

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Speaker 1: We've also seen a media that behaves more like state

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Speaker 1: run media versus you know, independent the fourth estate, which

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Speaker 1: it has been more so you know, traditionally, but not

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Speaker 1: as of late. How big of an impact do you

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Speaker 1: think that is, how on free speech in America?

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Speaker 4: I think it's having a tremendous impact. I mean, the

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Speaker 4: First Amendment applies to what government does, and that's an

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Speaker 4: important principle that we need to make clear. This case

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Speaker 4: was about what the government could do and how they

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Speaker 4: could use the law to censor someone. But we're also

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Speaker 4: seeing this sort of cancel culture moment where other powerful

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Speaker 4: institutions like the media are refusing to carry other viewpoints.

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Speaker 4: They're refusing to essentially engage in what would be more

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Speaker 4: objective truth telling.

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Speaker 3: I think great example of that.

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Speaker 4: Is after the three or three creative decision, Nadine Strassen

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Speaker 4: and I, for example, wrote an op ed together, and

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Speaker 4: Nadine is the former head of the ACLU. We could

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Speaker 4: not get a major outlet to publish that op ed

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Speaker 4: because they simply didn't want to cover a former head

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Speaker 4: of the ACLU, A current head of the ADF saying

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Speaker 4: this decision is good for everyone.

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Speaker 2: Well, I can share that pain.

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Speaker 1: I was shopping at outbed about not getting vaccinated and

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Speaker 1: it was I think the Washington Post either responded with

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Speaker 1: good luck or stay safe. I think it was stay safe,

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Speaker 1: and I've responded you too. I don't think they would

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Speaker 1: take any offense for me in the future.

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Speaker 2: You know how big of a concern do you have?

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Speaker 1: Obviously the Supreme Court is under attack right now. You

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Speaker 1: know the left would love to pack the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: You know the justices have literally had their lives threatened,

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Speaker 1: you know, assassination attempts against Justice Kavanaugh. How soon until

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Speaker 1: we have a packed court.

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Speaker 4: I hope we never have a pack court. I mean

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Speaker 4: with striking about this is you know, there have been

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Speaker 4: a few years now lately where we've had decisions that

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Speaker 4: have protected rights for everyone, free speech for everyone, even

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Speaker 4: those who disagree with Lorie. That's what the Court stood

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Speaker 4: for in this decision, and the progressive left seems to

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Speaker 4: be losing their mind over it, and it is deeply

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Speaker 4: concerning that they are abandoning the principles that have really

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Speaker 4: been time tested, that we have honored in so many

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Speaker 4: past historical moments. As this ree N three creative decision says,

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Speaker 4: it looks back eighty years to the height of World

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Speaker 4: War Two, where we protected speech that wasn't necessarily promoting

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Speaker 4: national security or promoting America, and we protected that. We've

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Speaker 4: protected so much speech over the years that we've disagreed

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Speaker 4: with because we know that we put up with speech

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Speaker 4: we might consider offensive in order to explore and pursue truth,

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Speaker 4: but also to curb government authority. And if it's a

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Speaker 4: choice between freedom and giving the government the power, I'm

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Speaker 4: choosing freedom every time throughout history.

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Speaker 1: And look, when authoritarians take over, communists take over, and

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Speaker 1: one of the first things they do is they controlled

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Speaker 1: the media. They control the flow of information, and they

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Speaker 1: also control what people can say.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 4: There's a quote from Frederick Douglass and that's during the

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Speaker 4: abolitionist movement way back when, and he's warning even then

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Speaker 4: that you know, free speech is so essential to government

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Speaker 4: and that it's the first thing that tyrants takeaway quick

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Speaker 4: commercial break.

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Speaker 1: More with Kristen on the other side, I worry since

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Speaker 1: COVID there was such an effort to shut people down,

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Speaker 1: to censor, whether it was you know, these big tech companies,

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Speaker 1: but also the government collaborating and working with big tech

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Speaker 1: to stifle voices. Is stifful opposition or people you know,

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Speaker 1: challenging the accepted narrative, or even with the Hunter Biden story,

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Speaker 1: you know, talk a little bit about that.

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Speaker 4: Well, we raised it earlier in the sense of, you know,

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Speaker 4: we have the first Amendment that stops the government from

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Speaker 4: censoring speech, and that's what the three h three creative

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Speaker 4: Decision was about. But we also have other institutions that

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Speaker 4: seem more than willing to misrepresent what's happening in the

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Speaker 4: world to fit a particular narrative, and instead of reporting

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Speaker 4: on the news, there's an ideological purpose that they have

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Speaker 4: to being and I think that's harmful. We can see

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Speaker 4: even during COVID, some of the narrative that shod and

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Speaker 4: that now many of us believe wasn't actually true, and

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Speaker 4: the harm that that causes. We know that when we

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Speaker 4: have free speech and we can enter into public discourse,

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Speaker 4: that's an opportunity to test ideas, to debate ideas, and

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Speaker 4: to expose lives, and we all benefit from having more information.

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Speaker 4: So it does great harm, regardless of what our views

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Speaker 4: are on COVID or vaccinations, when we have that information limited,

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Speaker 4: the truth limited, even if we think it's you know,

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Speaker 4: we don't necessarily agree with it.

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Speaker 3: That gives us less information on which to make our decisions,

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Speaker 3: and that's harmful for all of us.

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Speaker 1: How do you change perspectives? How do you change opinions

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Speaker 1: on this? Particularly when you look at young people, they

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Speaker 1: more and more believe in censorship.

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Speaker 4: I think it comes down to what we're teaching in

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Speaker 4: our schools and more than anything, what we're teaching at

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Speaker 4: our kitchen tables with our kids. You know, parents have

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Speaker 4: abdicated their responsibility, I think, to teach their children these

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Speaker 4: fundamental principles that have served humanity so well and served

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Speaker 4: this nation so well, about why speech matters, about why

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Speaker 4: truth exists, and that the First Amendment is a golden

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Speaker 4: rule that we have to protect the freedom of others

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Speaker 4: in order to have freedom ourselves, and that lesson seems

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Speaker 4: to have been lost in recent years, but I don't

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Speaker 4: think it's too late. I mean, at ADF, we had

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Speaker 4: the privilege of training the next generation of law students,

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Speaker 4: and I see the passion that they have on these issues,

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Speaker 4: and my hope is that it's turning around, and we're

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Speaker 4: also working to ensure that parents continue to have the

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Speaker 4: right to be able to teach their children consistent with

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Speaker 4: their faith.

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Speaker 2: What led you to work for ADF, Well.

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Speaker 4: It actually I was in private practice for about sixteen

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Speaker 4: years in Seattle, and it was two cases that I

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Speaker 4: think for me as a person of faith, that I

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Speaker 4: believe God used in my life to just get me

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Speaker 4: to take that jump into the nonprofit world and do

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Speaker 4: this work full time.

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Speaker 3: Case was called Stormans and it involved.

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Speaker 4: A fourth generation family owned business that was a pharmacy

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Speaker 4: and the state of Washington was trying to force that

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Speaker 4: pharmacy to dispense abortifacient drugs, even though the pharmacy was

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Speaker 4: willing to refer patients to some thirty pharmacies that were

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Speaker 4: within five miles that carried these drugs. And then it

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Speaker 4: was also the Arlen's Flowers case, which involved the Washington

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Speaker 4: florist who was designing all kinds of arrangements for our

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Speaker 4: customer who identified as gay, but when she declined to

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Speaker 4: design custom arrangements for his wedding, the Attorney General of

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Speaker 4: Washington didn't just sue Barnell's business, which she'd had for

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Speaker 4: forty years, but sued her personally, putting her personal.

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Speaker 3: Assets at risk.

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Speaker 4: And I thought at that point I wanted to jump

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Speaker 4: in full time because it was so apparent to me

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Speaker 4: that people of faith were being vilified for the beliefs

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Speaker 4: that most of Western civilization has had since the dawn

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Speaker 4: of time.

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Speaker 1: Think social media plays a role in some of this

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Speaker 1: new age vilification in the sense of it really creates

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Speaker 1: sort of this mob mentality. And also I think people

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Speaker 1: are afraid to not go along with a program. You know,

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Speaker 1: everyone's wired to just want to go along with the mob,

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Speaker 1: and the mob isn't necessarily a majority, they're just the

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Speaker 1: loudest voices on social media or what have you.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, I was I think the first real experience I

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Speaker 4: had with the mob was at Yale Law School a

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Speaker 4: couple of years ago, and I was there to speak

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Speaker 4: on free speech with the leader of the American Humanist Association,

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Speaker 4: and we were there to model stability to the law students,

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Speaker 4: to model that we can disagree on a lot of

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Speaker 4: different issues, but that we stand together on how important

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Speaker 4: speech is. And a student mob of about one hundred

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Speaker 4: and twenty engaged in some really horrific conduct that we

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Speaker 4: were eventually escorted out by police to a police car.

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Speaker 4: And experiencing that in that moment, I can totally understand

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Speaker 4: how people can be afraid when we're resulting to threats

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Speaker 4: of physical violence, and even in social media when your name.

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Speaker 3: Is drug through the mud, as has happened to.

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Speaker 4: Laurie Smith and frankly to her lawyers in the last

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Speaker 4: two weeks, where just outright lies have been told about us,

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Speaker 4: and to not have the ability to get word out

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Speaker 4: on what the truth is because either no one will

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Speaker 4: print it or the AP runs with the story that's

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Speaker 4: just factually incorrect.

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Speaker 1: What do you think law schools are teaching now about

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Speaker 1: the First Amendment?

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Speaker 4: I have no idea I shouldn't say that in that

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Speaker 4: like to make a coherent theory out of it is

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Speaker 4: just difficult. I can tell you what I see them modeling,

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Speaker 4: which is they don't model that golden rule. They don't

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Speaker 4: model the fact that when we are exposed to ideas

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Speaker 4: that we dislike, it can actually make us better.

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Speaker 3: It can make us sharper, it can help us understand

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Speaker 3: truth more.

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Speaker 4: And so, especially in the law schools, we're seeing students

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Speaker 4: that are simply unable to engage in debate, and they

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Speaker 4: can't debate, which makes me wonder, how can you have

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Speaker 4: a justice system that works If you can't tolerate someone

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Speaker 4: that you disagree with and you can't point out why

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Speaker 4: they're wrong, all you can do is physically threaten them,

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Speaker 4: shot them down, and call them names.

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Speaker 1: Well, I worry that we have law schools across America

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Speaker 1: that are pumping out future lawyers, future Supreme Court justices

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Speaker 1: who don't believe in the Constitution and the rule of

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Speaker 1: law or anything that holds this country together.

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Speaker 4: Still, it is concerning, and my only hope is that

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Speaker 4: you know, out of the Yale Law School, there are

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Speaker 4: a couple of other incidents right in that same time

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Speaker 4: period with other conservative speakers on law school campuses and

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Speaker 4: the schools had to start to respond and defend themselves,

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Speaker 4: and federal judges starting putting pressure on those schools to say,

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Speaker 4: you're not teaching these students what they need to be

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Speaker 4: zealous advocates and to meaningfully participate in the judicial system.

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Speaker 3: So I hope that that.

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Speaker 4: Pressure continues and that they again return to first principles

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Speaker 4: on why the First Amendment is so important. But I

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Speaker 4: am concerned, and you referenced the need for sort of

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Speaker 4: courage against this cancel culture mob, and unfortunately we don't

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Speaker 4: see that very often in university administration. They are some

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Speaker 4: of the most weak need officials right now in this country.

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Speaker 1: Well, and it's also hard for students who believe in

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Speaker 1: free speech or who are conservative on these campuses because

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Speaker 1: you have the college administrators, you have the teachers, you

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Speaker 1: have you know, other students. I mean, you're essentially an

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Speaker 1: odd man out on campus. I'm sure it's brutal.

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 4: We litigate more cases on behalf of students than any

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Speaker 4: other conservative public interest group that I've seen, and there

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Speaker 4: are some four hundred and fifty victories that we've had,

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Speaker 4: but they just keep coming because administrative officials will not

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Speaker 4: abide by the law and so conservative and religious students

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Speaker 4: have to stand up for their rights, and even when

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Speaker 4: we win, they will try to change the policy back

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Speaker 4: or a new method. For example, we've had a couple

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Speaker 4: of cases this year where they have agreed to enter

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Speaker 4: no contact orders against students who have articulated conservative or

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Speaker 4: religious viewpoints, suggesting that there are microaggressions when someone utters

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Speaker 4: a conservative viewpoint, and we have got to beat that

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Speaker 4: back and ensure that universities pay a hefty price when

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Speaker 4: they suppress the speech of students. But students have to

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Speaker 4: have more courage too, and it's hard to sue your school.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, we saw that recently with the affirmative

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Speaker 1: action case. I can't remember specifically what Harvard said, but

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Speaker 1: they basically put out a statement saying they're going.

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Speaker 2: To skirt around the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 3: I'd said, that's what they do.

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Speaker 4: And this issue of qualified immunity, which is probably taking

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Speaker 4: us down a rabbit trail, but there's essentially a concept

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Speaker 4: in the law that says, you know, the government officials

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Speaker 4: can't necessarily be held accountable monetarily unless they have violated

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Speaker 4: a very clear ruling or a very clear law. And

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Speaker 4: we're trying to establish those very clear rulings and very

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Speaker 4: clear laws so that it hurts when the government violates

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Speaker 4: our rights. And that's a principle that I think those

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Speaker 4: on the left and the right can agree to. That's

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Speaker 4: actually a part of the second case that I argued

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Speaker 4: before the Court had to do with if your constitutional

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Speaker 4: rights are violated, but you can't really put a price

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Speaker 4: tag on it, Can the government just get off?

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Speaker 3: Do they just get a free pass?

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Speaker 4: And the Court said no, there are no free passes

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Speaker 4: to violating constitutional rights.

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Speaker 1: Kristen, Is there anything else you want to leave us

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Speaker 1: with about the First Amendment or free speech in America?

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Speaker 3: It's worth standing up for so many times.

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Speaker 4: I think we want to stand first of all for

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Speaker 4: our own right to speech, but we need to understand

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Speaker 4: that in order to protect our right to be able

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Speaker 4: to speak and live and think consistent with our beliefs,

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Speaker 4: we need to stand for the rights of others in

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Speaker 4: this space. It isn't a rule that goes one way,

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Speaker 4: but it's worth protecting because we don't want to be

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Speaker 4: forced to betray our conscience and we don't want to

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Speaker 4: be forced to say things that we don't believe. It

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Speaker 4: benefits everyone, and I think The last thing I would

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Speaker 4: just say is.

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Speaker 3: Read the decision.

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Speaker 4: I would encourage people to read the three h three

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Speaker 4: creative decision. The narrative that the Associated Press and others

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Speaker 4: have put out about, well, it might be a fake case.

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Speaker 3: Or it's not a real ruling, or it hurts or discriminates.

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Speaker 3: It's just not true. And when you read the decision,

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Speaker 3: you know that Christin, appreciate.

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Speaker 1: The work you do, President of Alliance Defending Freedom. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for what you do, and thank you for winnings.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you, it's our priva.

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Speaker 1: It was Kristin Wagner with the Alliance Defending Freedom. Appreciate

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Speaker 1: her taking the time to come on the show. Appreciate

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Speaker 1: you guys at home for listening. Thank John Cassio, my producer,

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Speaker 1: for putting the show together as always every Monday and Thursday,

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Speaker 1: but you can listen throughout the week. Feel free to

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Speaker 1: drop us a review, give us a rating on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Until next time, take care,