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Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's me Josh, and for this week's episode,

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Speaker 1: I've chosen our twenty twenty two episode on the Fairness Doctrine.

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Speaker 1: It's been coming up all over the place lately, so

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Speaker 1: I thought it was high time that we released it

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Speaker 1: as a select. And I went back and listened to

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Speaker 1: this one, and I found that Chuck just kind of

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Speaker 1: sat back and really just let me go. And I

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Speaker 1: really appreciate him for that, because this one really got

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Speaker 1: my goat. Enjoy.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and

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Speaker 1: there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's jaredog the Rome

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Speaker 1: Land of all Time over there, and.

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Speaker 3: This is the stuff you should know. Wow. I gotta

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Speaker 3: pep it up a little bit, you know? Is that

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Speaker 3: what that was?

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Speaker 1: Screw it up a little bit, That's what I meant to.

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Speaker 2: Say, speaking of screwing up Chicago, Illinois, screwing up.

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 1: I was trying to think about this, like which approach

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Speaker 1: should we take. Should we just outright lie and say

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Speaker 1: like there's very few tickets left, so you better go

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Speaker 1: get them now? No? Or should we shame them and

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Speaker 1: say there are plenty of tickets left, a disappointing amount

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Speaker 1: of tickets left.

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Speaker 2: I think we should just be honest and not shame them, Okay,

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Speaker 2: but express our disappointment. Nothing works better than disappointment.

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Speaker 1: You know, Chicago, we really expected a little more from

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Speaker 1: you than this.

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Speaker 2: So if you're confused about what we're talking about, probably

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Speaker 2: because you haven't heard, and that's our fault. About our

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Speaker 2: live shows coming up all around the country to cities

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Speaker 2: we've never been to before.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we've.

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Speaker 1: Never been to Orlando before. We've never been to Portland,

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Speaker 1: Maine before.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: But we are going to Chicago again because we thought

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Speaker 2: Chicago loved us on July twenty fourth at the Harris Theater,

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Speaker 2: and then Toronto the next night on July twenty fifth.

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Speaker 3: They're buying a lot of tickets. They love us up there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the Dan fourth, and then Boston August twenty ninth, Portland,

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Speaker 2: May and August thirtieth, Orlando and New Orleans October ninth

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Speaker 2: and tenth, and then Brooklyn the twenty third through the

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Speaker 2: twenty fifth.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, October three night run at the Bellhouse in Brooklyn,

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Speaker 1: which is going to be great.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 1: But again, Toronto, you're doing great guys.

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Speaker 3: Keep it up.

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Speaker 1: Chicago, you could stand to step it up a little bit.

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Speaker 1: You got a little bit of time.

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Speaker 3: But why wait you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the seats are only going to get worse.

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Speaker 3: True dad, chuck, true dad.

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Speaker 2: So just go to s ysk live for our home,

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Speaker 2: our touring home on the web thanks to our buddies

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Speaker 2: at squarespace. Oh yeah, and now let's talk about the

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Speaker 2: fairness doctrine.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we actually need to If this were, say, pre

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven, we would need to have Jerry come

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Speaker 1: in and say, so, here's all the reasons why you

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Speaker 1: shouldn't buy tickets to stuff you should know live if

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Speaker 1: we were going to follow the fairness doctrine. But it's

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Speaker 1: not tilling in nineteen eighty seven. And as a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, I wonder how podcasting would how this would

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Speaker 1: apply or have applied to podcasting if it had still

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Speaker 1: been around, or if podcasting would have been one of

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Speaker 1: those things that kind of grew up around the fairness doctrine.

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Speaker 1: Who knows, but it's a fascinating What are those called

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Speaker 1: when when it's impossible? Sure, there's another word for it.

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Speaker 1: When it's something that just can't possibly happen, kind of

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Speaker 1: like speculative fiction or something like that.

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Speaker 3: I can't remember.

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Speaker 2: But you know, since podcasts don't fall under the FCC,

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Speaker 2: then doubt if.

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Speaker 3: It would have mattered. Oh yeah, I guess that's true. Huh.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we could if we wanted to. Right now, we

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Speaker 2: could say every curse word, every awful thing in the

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Speaker 2: world under the sun. We elect not to do that everyone.

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Speaker 1: I heard a radio DJ the other day say, I

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Speaker 1: know you want to curse so bad right now, this

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Speaker 1: is why we're getting a podcast, and I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess we could. I guess we could curse, but

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Speaker 1: it's I like that we don't chuck.

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Speaker 3: I do too.

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Speaker 2: And if you want to hear me curse just a

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Speaker 2: you can come to a live show true to true

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Speaker 2: because it happens a little bit. Or B you can

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Speaker 2: just join me over at movie crush I cuss. I

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Speaker 2: had a lot over there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think at first people were like, oh, and then

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Speaker 1: now I think people go listen in part to hear

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Speaker 1: you curse.

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Speaker 3: They like to hear that blue streak coming out, and

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Speaker 3: they hear the real me. Oh.

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Speaker 1: I like to think that both sides are the real

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Speaker 1: you put together well.

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Speaker 2: For roughly two and a half hours a week, this

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Speaker 2: is the real me.

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Speaker 1: Do you find it difficult not to curse on the show? Uh?

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Speaker 2: No, I mean I'm fully used to it by now, Yes,

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Speaker 2: but I definitely am not as fully free wheeling as

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Speaker 2: I normally am.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess I should say.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to give the impression that I'm like

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Speaker 1: some you know, Flanders type or whatever. I curse pretty

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Speaker 1: routinely myself in regular life, but I guess I find

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Speaker 1: it kind of comforting just knowing that there's a there's

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Speaker 1: a safe space where I don't say the F word

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Speaker 1: a lot.

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Speaker 2: You should start another podcast just called filth Floren Filth

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Speaker 2: with Josh Clark.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's a pretty good idea.

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Speaker 2: But none of this has to do with the nineteen twenties,

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Speaker 2: except for the fact that people did not curse on

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Speaker 2: the radio back then either, because there weren't a lot

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Speaker 2: of people on the radio in the nineteen twenties. No, actually,

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Speaker 2: pre or early early early nineteen twenties, that is, right.

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Speaker 1: Pre November nineteen twenty, there was not much going on

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Speaker 1: on the radio aside from Morse Code, some Ham radio operators.

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Speaker 3: And remember we.

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Speaker 1: Did a pretty good episode on Ham Radio.

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Speaker 3: Love those I remember correctly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, one of the things I remember about that

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Speaker 1: Ham Radio episode is that there was a kind of

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Speaker 1: a whole hacker anarchic ethos surrounding the early days of radio.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's just a total free for all. You

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Speaker 1: could broadcast on whatever station you wanted to and get

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Speaker 1: in arguments with, you know, the government if you wanted to,

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Speaker 1: who cared.

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Speaker 3: There was not a.

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Speaker 1: Lot of ways to trace anybody, So there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of anything goes mentality among the early Ham radio operators.

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Speaker 1: But that was basically all you would hear is people

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Speaker 1: saying like, hey, how's it going, kind of thing, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe some heavy breathing. And then in November nineteen twenty,

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Speaker 1: a station called k d KA actually organized itself and

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Speaker 1: the first broadcast that it put out was reading the

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Speaker 1: election results from the James Cock James Cox, Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: almost just violated FCC.

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Speaker 3: Rules this dirty talk James Cox.

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Speaker 1: Warren Harding a nineteen twenty presidential election. It was the

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Speaker 1: first commercial licensed radio broadcast in the world.

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I think that's a great trivia question.

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Speaker 2: If someone were to say, what was what city hosted

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Speaker 2: or whatever was part of the first radio commercial radio

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Speaker 2: broadcast Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And the follow up would be and

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Speaker 2: what did they broadcast a federal a presidential election outcome?

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Speaker 2: Which was a big deal because it's weird to think

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Speaker 2: about in nineteen twenty that people all over the country

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Speaker 2: were waiting for that morning paper to come out.

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Speaker 3: Except in Pittsburgh. They knew, right, they did know.

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Speaker 1: And not everybody in Pittsburgh, just the people who had

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Speaker 1: basically built their own radios because that was the radios

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Speaker 1: that were around.

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Speaker 2: They were they're like eight people are Pittsburgh pretty much

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Speaker 2: pretty much.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that this happened in words spread pretty quickly. Yes,

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Speaker 1: some people in Pittsburgh knew the election results because they

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Speaker 1: were listening to the radio and.

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Speaker 2: They ran around yelling that out and said we heard

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Speaker 2: it on a radio, and everyone's like these people, lock

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Speaker 2: them up.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And also other little known fact, the first song played

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Speaker 1: on the radio was radio killed the newspaper Star.

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Speaker 3: Did you just make that up or did you have

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Speaker 3: that prepped? I just made it up?

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Speaker 1: Okay, good job, thank you man. I'm glad you got

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Speaker 1: like that. Grudging good job, because there was almost contempt

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Speaker 1: in that first initialb.

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Speaker 2: Well, because off the cuff, that's a great joke. But

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Speaker 2: if you workshop that over a few hours, then no, no.

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Speaker 1: No, when's the last time I workshopped a joke?

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Speaker 3: I don't know? Okay, you don't let me in your workshop,

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Speaker 3: and I know I keep it a close to the

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Speaker 3: guarded secret. So okay. So here's the point.

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Speaker 1: This is the reason we're even talking about that first

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Speaker 1: broadcast is because that was November nineteen twenty. By nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenty four, I think there were and in nineteen twenty

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Speaker 1: there were like twenty thousand radios. Nineteen twenty four, there

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Speaker 1: were one in a half million radios in the United States.

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Speaker 1: By nineteen thirty eighty, no, nineteen forty eighty three percent

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Speaker 1: of every household in America had a radio. And so

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Speaker 1: there was this massive transition from distributing news and making

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Speaker 1: sure everybody was up to date on all the information

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Speaker 1: they needed to be like a smart voter or hold

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Speaker 1: like political or social or cultural opinions. That transition moved

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Speaker 1: from newspapers, from print, which still hung around, sure, but

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Speaker 1: over to radio. Radio became much much more prevalent as

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Speaker 1: far as the spread of information to an increasingly large

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Speaker 1: number of people went in the United States in a

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Speaker 1: very short time, in like twenty years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So in the nineteen forties, the FCC and you know,

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Speaker 2: there's some background all this that we'll get to, but

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Speaker 2: we haven't even really said what the Fairness Doctrine is yet.

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Speaker 3: No. No.

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Speaker 2: Finally, in nineteen forty nine, the US government said, you

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Speaker 2: know what, we need some help here. We're a little

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Speaker 2: bit worried that, geez, somebody could some private citizen who's

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Speaker 2: wealthy could go and buy all the radio stations and

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Speaker 2: essentially propagandize the news, right, and there's nothing we can

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Speaker 2: do about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So basically what they said was this, there is

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Speaker 1: one thing we can do about it. We can flex

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Speaker 1: our muscle as the government and specifically say you broadcasters

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Speaker 1: can't do.

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Speaker 2: That, that's right, via something called the Fairness Doctrine, which

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Speaker 2: had the overall goal of basically, and it's very kind

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Speaker 2: of cute to look back at this time period, but

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Speaker 2: its initial goal was to make sure that all the

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Speaker 2: information on the radio waves was good information and true

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Speaker 2: and fair and enriching. And there's only so much space

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Speaker 2: on a radio dial, and this is very critical that

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Speaker 2: there were a limited number of frequencies available.

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Speaker 1: Yes, frequency scarcity.

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, that's just put a pin in that

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Speaker 2: because that's a very big deal. Is how this weighed

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Speaker 2: in the favor of the fairness doctrine and then also

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Speaker 2: kind of helped kill it in some ways. Sure, but

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Speaker 2: basically the very progressive view that public interests outweigh private

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Speaker 2: interest in the public has a right to really good

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Speaker 2: information over the free speech of the broadcaster.

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Speaker 1: Even Yes, so you just hit it right on the head,

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Speaker 1: like that is the crux of the fairness doctrine. And

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Speaker 1: it seems like okay, depending on your viewpoint, either.

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Speaker 3: Like the most.

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Speaker 1: Vile idea ever or just a completely sensible idea. And

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Speaker 1: the reason that it can present the same these two

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Speaker 1: totally different opinions is because this idea, the fairness doctrine,

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Speaker 1: is it sits right at the heart of the difference

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Speaker 1: between the right and the left, between conservativism and libertarianism

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Speaker 1: and liberalism, right, and it is it comes down to this,

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Speaker 1: like you if you have to promote public intercourse like

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Speaker 1: people understanding not doing it in public, but I mean

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Speaker 1: like discourse, public intercourse. So yeah, I guess doing it

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Speaker 1: in public if you're going to promote public discourse and

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Speaker 1: protect it. As a government saying like that, the like

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Speaker 1: it's the role of government to say, we need to

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Speaker 1: make sure that the quality of the information that's getting

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Speaker 1: out there is protected, and that.

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Speaker 3: We have to do that.

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Speaker 1: We have to limit what broadcasters can say. We have

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Speaker 1: to curtail free speech to people on the right, like

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Speaker 1: right there, full stop. That's a problem. That's an issue.

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Speaker 1: It's it has fatally flawed because you are curtailing the

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Speaker 1: free speech of somebody, whether it's a whether it's NBC

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Speaker 1: or Joe Schmoe who wants to say something on the radio,

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Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. You are curtailing free speech, and therefore

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Speaker 1: that is wrong. The people on the lift say, well,

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Speaker 1: whoaa wo, this is the this is this is a

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Speaker 1: privilege to broadcast on the radio, and in order to

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Speaker 1: protect the larger public and its interests, we have to

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Speaker 1: curtail that free speech of the very narrowed money moneyed

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Speaker 1: interests that can afford a license to broadcasts. And there's

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Speaker 1: no way to reconcile the two. You can't. You have

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Speaker 1: to choose a side. You have to form an opinion

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Speaker 1: one way or the other and whatever you choose is

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Speaker 1: your larger view of whether you're a liberal or whether

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Speaker 1: you're conservative.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, pretty much. I mean it fell along those lines

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Speaker 3: back then and still does today.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 2: Even though the fairness doctrine isn't around, the ideology.

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Speaker 1: Is well, it keeps getting brought out in kind of

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Speaker 1: you know, forced along like an angry parade route in

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Speaker 1: order to kind of say like, look, look, look what

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Speaker 1: the government's capable of doing. Look at the overreach they

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Speaker 1: really want to do. Don't let them do it again with.

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Speaker 3: X, right. You know.

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Speaker 1: So it is it's a huge flash point, and it's

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Speaker 1: understandable why it seems like so kind of limp and

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Speaker 1: bureaucratic and boring, But when you dig into the history

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Speaker 1: of the whole thing and even the contemporary idea behind it,

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Speaker 1: it's a huge flashpoint politically in the United States.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So it had a couple of main components, and then

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Speaker 2: within that a couple of big, big rules, very important rules.

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Speaker 2: The first of the components were they were known together

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Speaker 2: as the fairness rule, which is private broadcasters must report

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Speaker 2: on my matters of public interest.

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Speaker 1: Like it's a responsibility of you as a broadcaster that's right.

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Speaker 2: And private broadcasters must cover opposing perspectives regarding that public interest.

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Speaker 3: It's a big one. That's a big one. And then

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Speaker 3: the little rules there.

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Speaker 2: The personal attack rule said that if you're a broadcaster

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Speaker 2: and you are going to run a negative story on

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Speaker 2: somebody or something prior to that, you have to let

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Speaker 2: these people know or this organization know and give them

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Speaker 2: time to respond on the air. And then the political

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Speaker 2: editorial rule, which is private broadcasters that air editorial programming

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Speaker 2: that endorses a political candidate must inform other candidates and

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Speaker 2: offer them time to respond on air. Not to be

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Speaker 2: confused with the equal time rule, that's different.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the equal time rule is why debates are supposed

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Speaker 1: to have all candidates, because you're supposed to if you

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Speaker 1: give one candidate time airtime to say, hey, here's my platform,

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Speaker 1: you're supposed to give all other candidates the equal amount

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Speaker 1: of time. And that political editorial rule kind of it's

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Speaker 1: close to it, and it follows in the same tradition

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Speaker 1: and principle. But really the personal attack rule and the

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Speaker 1: political editorial role that we're part of the fairness doctrine.

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Speaker 1: That's just like the foundation of good journalism. Basically, it

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Speaker 1: was not. They're not radical ideas.

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Speaker 3: That's a good point.

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Speaker 1: So the idea though that that public or that private

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Speaker 1: broadcasters have to talk about issues and then have to

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Speaker 1: error opposing viewpoints, that is that is kind of controversial

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Speaker 1: because it's saying like he we we the government are

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Speaker 1: saying you have to do this, this is your responsibility.

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Speaker 1: And the idea that the government even has control over

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Speaker 1: airwaves is is in dispute, but it actually dates pretty

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Speaker 1: far back, and we'll talk about the background, the backstory

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Speaker 1: behind the fairness doctrine after a message.

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Speaker 3: How about that sounds good? Okay, Chuck.

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Speaker 1: So there's one thing to really understand what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about here. Initially we were talking about radio waves and

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Speaker 1: then eventually TV waves, and then I eventually turned into

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Speaker 1: the Internet. But all these things, especially something like a

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Speaker 1: airwaves for a radio and TV, these exist naturally, right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's not like a government factory that produces radio waves

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Speaker 1: and then the government can say, well, we produce these

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Speaker 1: so we can divvyot. Do you think man, that it's

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Speaker 1: an artificial idea that the government can say we regulate

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Speaker 1: these airwaves because it's citizens listening to the stuff that's

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Speaker 1: broadcast on the airwaves, and it's private companies broadcasting on

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Speaker 1: the airwaves using equipment that's manufactured by other private companies.

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Speaker 1: So the government is insinuating itself and saying, well, well, well,

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Speaker 1: this is too important to leave to the market. We

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Speaker 1: have to regulate this in some ways, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to do that. And the whole thing actually started with

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Speaker 1: the Titanic, to tell you the truth, the Titanic ship,

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Speaker 1: the Titanic ship, the very one shot that's right. Leading

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Speaker 1: up to the Titanic, you know, radio was being used

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Speaker 1: and quite a bit in maritime communication. In fact, we

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Speaker 1: even passed the Ship Act of nineteen ten, which required

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Speaker 1: ships leaving the United States to have radio equipment to

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Speaker 1: know how to use it, and sort of laid out

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Speaker 1: some basic broadcasting standards. But what they didn't do was say,

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Speaker 1: all right, we're going to assign radio frequencies and we're

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Speaker 1: going to like reserve a channel for emergencies. Only this

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Speaker 1: kind of stung them because a couple of years after that,

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Speaker 1: a little boat called the RMS Titanic ship the Titanic,

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Speaker 1: It wasn't a little boat, it was a ocean liner. Sure,

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Speaker 1: I used to know the difference between ocean liner and

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Speaker 1: a cruise ship. I think ocean liners are transitlanic.

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Speaker 3: Is that is that the deal?

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Speaker 1: I've never heard the difference. I think that's it was

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Speaker 1: one and the same or something.

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Speaker 2: I think an ocean liner specifically can cross two different continents.

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Speaker 1: I got yeah. I guess a cruise ship could just

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Speaker 1: hug the coast or something like that.

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Speaker 3: I think that, But I might be making all that up,

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Speaker 3: I gotcha.

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Speaker 2: So the Titanic sank, there was a lot of radio

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Speaker 2: traffic going on as the disaster breaks out. Obviously, so

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Speaker 2: even though this in Newfoundland they heard very early on

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Speaker 2: and picked up this distress call, they couldn't really get

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Speaker 2: it out because everything was all clogged up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a lot of ham radio operators screwing

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Speaker 1: things up at the time.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: And that's what prompted the Radio Act of nineteen twelve,

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Speaker 2: which was sort of the beginnings of the foundation of

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Speaker 2: what would eventually become the Fairness Doctrine, because what it

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Speaker 2: did was it established spectrum allocation, and the FCC basically said, hey, listen,

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Speaker 2: if you want to broadcast, you can't just broadcast.

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Speaker 3: You got to come to us and get a license.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Initially it was the Commerce Department that was issuing licenses. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then came the Radio Act of nineteen twenty seven

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Speaker 1: that formed the Radio Commission and they started handling licenses.

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Speaker 1: But not only did they start saying, Okay, you're a broadcaster,

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Speaker 1: here's your license. This is the frequency that you can

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Speaker 1: broadcast on. Prior to that that was around in the

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Speaker 1: Radio Act, that was the Commerce Department that did that,

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Speaker 1: But there was no way to police it. And so

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Speaker 1: if you were say NBC Radio, and there were a

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Speaker 1: bunch of people broadcasting on your frequency at seven pm,

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Speaker 1: you just switched to Yeah, well no, you just switched

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Speaker 1: to a different frequency and start broadcasting. And so there

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Speaker 1: was no way to police it. Well, with the Radio

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Speaker 1: Act of nineteen twenty seven and the creation is Radio Commission,

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Speaker 1: there was a way to police it because you could

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Speaker 1: have your license revoked and if you kept broadcasting, guys

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Speaker 1: would come to your house and kidnap your family.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But and the really important thing, and this is how

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Speaker 2: it not your family?

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: The really important thing was that established what we talked

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Speaker 2: about before, which is spectrum scarcity. There's only so much

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Speaker 2: space now if everyone has to apply for a license,

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Speaker 2: who wants to broadcast.

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Speaker 3: It's just it was very key in the setup.

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Speaker 2: And then, like I said, eventual downfall of the fairness doctrine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because it says this like, Okay, here's the full

400
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Speaker 1: here's the full spectrum the radio spectrum that we can

401
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Speaker 1: broadcast on, and we're going to carve it up, and

402
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Speaker 1: each person gets a specific frequency to broadcast on. That

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Speaker 1: means that there's a finite number of frequencies. So there's

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Speaker 1: a finite number of licenses, which means that not everybody

405
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Speaker 1: can have a license to broadcast, which means that the

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Speaker 1: people who do have that license to broadcasts have a

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Speaker 1: very important privilege afforded to them. And because it's a privilege,

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Speaker 1: because the government isn'tuated itself and said we're doling out

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Speaker 1: these privileges, we've decided we the government have decided that

410
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Speaker 1: you have a responsibility to present fair and balanced reporting

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Speaker 1: to the government to the public, including basically all sides

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Speaker 1: of an issue, like you have a responsibility that supersedes

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Speaker 1: your right to free speech as a broadcaster. That's what

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Speaker 1: spectrum scarcity created.

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Speaker 2: Right this The nineteen twenty seven Radio Act, while it

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Speaker 2: did establish that, it kind of made some errors basically,

417
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Speaker 2: and how they set it up.

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Speaker 3: There are a lot of misspellings. Yeah, there are a

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Speaker 3: lot of misspellings.

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Speaker 2: But they would say basically to the broadcasters, you have

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Speaker 2: to air content in support of quote, public convenience, interest

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Speaker 2: or necessity end quote.

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Speaker 3: But they didn't really define what that was.

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Speaker 1: Which, by the way I looked it up, I was like,

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Speaker 1: what does public convenience mean? Apparently in the UK it

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Speaker 1: means a public toilet, and that's the only definite I

427
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Speaker 1: could ever find for it. So somebody just made that up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, the air content about public toilets, right,

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Speaker 2: an would being great actually.

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Speaker 1: Like that apart from naked gun, it's just nothing but

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Speaker 1: the sounds of people peeing.

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Speaker 2: But this is a big problem because if something isn't

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Speaker 2: clearly defined, then it can't be it can't be enforced,

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Speaker 2: right you know. So in nineteen thirty four they knew

435
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Speaker 2: that this was a problem. This was how many years later,

436
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Speaker 2: like seven years later, and they said, you know what,

437
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Speaker 2: we need to issue another act because we're the federal government.

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Speaker 2: And so the Federal Communications Act replaced the Radio Act.

439
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 2: The FCC was born, replaced the Radio Commission, and the

440
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Speaker 2: FCC said all right, the first thing we got to

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Speaker 2: do is define what this public interest thing is all about.

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Speaker 1: Right, because not only does it make it difficult to enforce,

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Speaker 1: it makes it difficult to follow. So, like, even if

444
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 1: you're broadcasting and you're like, I totally agree with this,

445
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,919
Speaker 1: I do have a rite and responsibility, what's this public

446
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 1: public convenience thing?

447
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 3: Again?

448
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: Like, how do I do this? What am I supposed

449
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 1: to be doing? And if it's not defined, yeah, you

450
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 1: can't enforce it. You also can't follow it if you

451
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,880
Speaker 1: want to follow it. So there was just too much

452
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 1: gray area. And so the FCC, when this was created,

453
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: this idea of, Okay, we're going to set about like

454
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: defining this stuff and really generating this idea of what

455
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: it means to be a responsible broadcaster. It happened at

456
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 1: a really liberal time in America's history, right after the

457
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 1: New Deal had really kind of come along and changed

458
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 1: the complexion of America pretty dramatically, and liberalism and progressivism

459
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: had really set in and was entrenched in the fabric

460
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: of American politics. And so there was this idea that

461
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: the best way to prevent broadcasters from asserting an overbearing

462
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 1: influence on public discourse because they had the loudest voice

463
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 1: because they had the radio licenses right was to just say,

464
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: you guys can't editorialize at all. And this became known

465
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 1: as the Mayflower decision or the Mayflower doctrine. It was

466
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: a nineteen forty one FCC ruling that basically said, you

467
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 1: know what, you guys have to basically be neutral in

468
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 1: that you can't you can't say anything. You can't present

469
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 1: any particular side. If we find out that you guys

470
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: are promoting, say the policy agenda or the favorite politics

471
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: of like your station owner or your parent company or

472
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: something like that, yeah you're in trouble. And that was

473
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: kind of like the line that they drew no editorializing whatsoever.

474
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 2: That's right, and that that really sort of laid the

475
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 2: groundwork in a big, big way for the fairness doctrine,

476
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 2: even though the Fairness Doctrine sort of undid that it

477
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: did and said, well, you know, editor you can editorialize,

478
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 2: but you just have to do it on both sides.

479
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 1: Right, you have to present, present, prevent present both sides.

480
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 1: And like, on the one hand, that was a gift

481
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: to the to the broadcasters right there saying okay, you

482
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: can you can use your own voice. You can state

483
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 1: your own opinion, you can support your own political candidate,

484
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 1: but you have to give airtime to the other political candidate.

485
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: You have to give airtime to people with an opposing.

486
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 3: View of what you just said.

487
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 1: So it was kind of like a compromise, but it

488
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: was also a weakening of the progressivist agenda, I guess yeah.

489
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 2: And the broadcasters did not like it for sure, because

490
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 2: again they were still sort of confused about what what

491
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 2: does public importance mean. We're not even sure you know,

492
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 2: everything's decided and applied on a case by case basis.

493
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 1: In other words, yeah, that's a big one.

494
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

495
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 2: In other words, if somebody just files a complaint, basically

496
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 2: they will take up that complaint and hear that complaint.

497
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 2: But it wasn't like some like big sweeping thing.

498
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: No, But it was also Chuck, that's so that that

499
00:26:55,200 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: means that it's it's a capricious an arbitrary basically aping

500
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 1: the rule on a case by case basis rather than

501
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 1: a sweeping regulation. But it's also a weakness because it

502
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: means that the SEC is saying, we'll leave it to you,

503
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: the broadcasters, to police yourselves. We're only going to act

504
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: when somebody complains.

505
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what happened in a lot of cases was

506
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 2: some radio stations were like, you know what, I'm not

507
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 2: even going to go there, and I'm going to avoid

508
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 2: controversy at all together because I don't think we pointed

509
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 2: out it wasn't just about politics. It was basically covered

510
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: controversial issues in general, like and that this will play

511
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 2: a big part, like everything from climate denial to the

512
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 2: anti vaxx movement in the nineteen eighties, like they all

513
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 2: had to have equal time under the fairness doctrine, and

514
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 2: a lot of people point to the fairness doctrine as

515
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 2: like how these movements got jumped started to begin with

516
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 2: because they didn't put those opinions in context. They were

517
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 2: just like, you know, they didn't say, this is very

518
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,880
Speaker 2: scientifically valid, and now here's the oppos posing viewpoint, which

519
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 2: has no science to back.

520
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 1: It up, right exactly, And that was the fact that

521
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: they didn't do that. They were airing on the side

522
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: of caution over editorializing, but also probably they were trying

523
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: to make sure that everybody was was not offended. They

524
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 1: didn't offend either side because they didn't want to be

525
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: boycotted with advertising too or fined.

526
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 3: Sure. Yeah.

527
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: So that was a big problem with the fairness doctrine

528
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: is that it was ill defined. It was it opened

529
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: the door for opposing viewpoints that that that put them

530
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: on equal footing or equal ground with with with other

531
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: viewpoints that were say, scientifically backed, which created what's called

532
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: the false balance problem. And then uh, there was opposition

533
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: to it to basically the to the fairness doctrine from

534
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: from the outset, not just the broadcasters who thought they

535
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: didn't want any kind of restriction on their speech, but

536
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: also interesting it represented a loophole to combat advertising too,

537
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: which I think the SEC hadn't thought of, but they said, yeah,

538
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: this actually applies.

539
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 3: When it came up.

540
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: There was a ruling in nineteen sixty seven that found

541
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: that cigarette advertising qualified as a a presentation of one

542
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: viewpoint of a controversial subject. Basically, cigarette smoking is great,

543
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: Go smoke some cigarettes. And so some consumer groups petitioned

544
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: the FCC and said, hey, we should be able to

545
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: give the opposing viewpoint, don't smoke cigarettes, it's bad for you.

546
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: And the SEC said, you're absolutely right, And advertisers.

547
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 3: Were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

548
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: This is a big deal, and now they jumped in

549
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: to back up the National Association of Broadcasters, which was

550
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: opposed to the fairness doctrine in general.

551
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it also you know that kind of thing,

552
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 2: if advertising counts, that opens the doors, and it did,

553
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 2: or you know, like and we'll we'll get to this

554
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 2: more specifically later. But like if a power company wanted

555
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 2: to do an ad about their great new nuclear power

556
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 2: plant that they were going to build, like a liberal

557
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 2: group can come forward and say no, no, no, like,

558
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 2: that's not an ad. I know they're paying for airspace,

559
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 2: but that means we need to talk about the ills

560
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: of nuclear power.

561
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 3: Right right.

562
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: And I mean even if it wasn't ed, the opposing

563
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: group could say, we get free airtime to say that

564
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: this is the opposite of that. And so if you're

565
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: a broadcaster, especially if you're in like a successful market

566
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: that you know fifteen thirty sixty second spot is important,

567
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: you don't want to give that away. But it may

568
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: also you may have like an interest in whatever the

569
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: other group is protesting. So just on that in that

570
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: respect as well, you don't really want to air the

571
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 1: opposing view. The problem with the fairness doctor. And if

572
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: you're libertarian or conservative is that it said you have

573
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: to do that, you have to air this opposing view.

574
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 3: The sc says, so that's right. So you got to

575
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 3: think this is going to end up in court at

576
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 3: some point.

577
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 2: Sure, and it did quite a few times over the years,

578
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: not surprisingly, and for about a twenty to thirty year period,

579
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 2: US courts basically supported the FCC in fulfilling this mandate.

580
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: There were some real highlights. In nineteen sixty nine. There

581
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 2: were a couple of big court rulings that affirmed this enforcement.

582
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 2: One was Red Lion Broadcasting Company Incorporated the FCC. It's

583
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 2: a little mouthy, it is. So this one was sort

584
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 2: of two cases in one. The Supreme Court was able

585
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 2: to kill two birds. One case was an FCC appeal

586
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: of a lower court ruling that said this, you know,

587
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 2: the personal attack and political editorial rules, those two big

588
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 2: rules were unconstitutional. And the second was a broadcaster appealing

589
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 2: of a lower court ruling that said the FCC's application

590
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,239
Speaker 2: of those rules was constitutional. So I said, all right,

591
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 2: you guys, let's just combine this into one thing and

592
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 2: we'll hear the case. And then the latter one that

593
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 2: was an investigative journalist named Fred J. Cook and he

594
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 2: filed a complaint, and like we said, it was case

595
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 2: by case stuff. So this complaint made it all the

596
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 2: way to the Supreme Court. Fred Cook filed a complaint

597
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 2: against Redline Broadcasting who owned WCGB, because they had a

598
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 2: broadcast with Reverend Billy James Hargas that claimed that Cook,

599
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 2: who was an author and wrote a very kind of

600
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: salacious expos about the FBI, and this reverend said, you

601
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 2: know what, this author worked for the communist and he

602
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 2: attacked j Edgar Hoover. And it turns out they didn't

603
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 2: contact Cook to give him that equal chance to respond,

604
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 2: and they denied him his demand for that, and it

605
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 2: made it all the way to the Supreme Court, and

606
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court said, you know what, Redline, you're wrong.

607
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 3: You got to do this right.

608
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: So and since the Supreme Court ruled that that Cook

609
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: could have equal airtime, this is like I think twelve

610
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: years or nine years later, and I could not find

611
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: anywhere if he actually took him up on it or not.

612
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: But the whole thing was just like a It was

613
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: an ad hominem attack, an attack on him on Cook

614
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: because Cook had written a book against Barry Goldwater, who

615
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: was a presidential candidate at the time, and the people

616
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: who ran Red Lion didn't like it, so they attacked Cook.

617
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 3: But he so they.

618
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: In this ruling though, and this is the whole point,

619
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: not that Cook got his time, it was airtime, but

620
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: that the Supreme Court ruled that the SEC applying this

621
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: fairness doctrine was good and fine and constitutional, which is

622
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: a big deal. They ruled that the SEC could constitutionally

623
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: exercise this fairness doctrine, which is that was just enormous.

624
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a very very big deal.

625
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: The other big kind of landmark case was that same

626
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 2: year the Office of Communication of the United Church of

627
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 2: Christ at all the FCC.

628
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 3: Another sinilating title.

629
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: There was a US appeals court who overturned the FCC's

630
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 2: decision not to consider a petition to revoke the license

631
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: of Lamar Broadcasting WLBT. So these citizens got together civil

632
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: rights groups and they were like, you know what, this

633
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 2: station is awful. They are first of all, they're not

634
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 2: covering the civil rights movement, and they're flat out racist

635
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: and segregationist, and so we're going to petition this. And

636
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 2: the FCC denied the petition in nineteen sixty four and

637
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 2: said citizens don't have the standing to file a petition

638
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 2: like this.

639
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: Which is pretty surprising because you know, the citizens are

640
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: the ones the sec have always been like fighting for right.

641
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 2: It was a little hinky hinky is the word that

642
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 2: we used to use. So the petitioners appealed, and in

643
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty six, yeah, sixty the Court of Appeals for

644
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 2: DC said, you do have standing to petition the FCC

645
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 2: to revoke a license, right, because that's all about protecting

646
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 2: the public interest, which is what the FCC was supposed

647
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: to be doing in.

648
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 3: The first place. So get back to work.

649
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: And finally, in nineteen sixty seven, the FCC revisited that

650
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 2: petition rejected it again because they said, hey, the station

651
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 2: has actually kind of taken some steps since then, and

652
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 2: we think they're doing the right thing. Petitioners still weren't happy.

653
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 2: They appealed that. In nineteen sixty nine, the FCC actually

654
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 2: revoked Lamar Broadcasting's license.

655
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: They did. As far as as far as I could tell,

656
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: Lamar Broadcasting was the one and only company to lose

657
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:44,760
Speaker 1: their license under.

658
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 3: The Fairness Doctrine permanently.

659
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: Yeah right, they never got it back and chuck a

660
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: little cherry on top because Lamar Broadcasting lost the license

661
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: of WLBT in Jackson, Mississippi. It was up for grabs

662
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: and it was taken by a majority black owned group

663
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 1: that took over the station at that point, isn't that nice?

664
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,720
Speaker 1: So things seem to be going smoothly for the fairness doctrine.

665
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: What could go wrong? Well, we'll tell you what could

666
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 1: go wrong after a break?

667
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:37,919
Speaker 3: How about that? Okay, Chuck.

668
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: So one thing that I've learned is it's not necessarily

669
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: like the Supreme Court is their decisions are final forever.

670
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: They kind of shift and move over time over long

671
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 1: enough periods of time. And the fairness doctrine is a

672
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: really good example of that, because in the sixties the

673
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: Supreme Court ruled pretty clearly the FEC was constitutional. But

674
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 1: by the end of the seventies the Supreme Court started

675
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: to side with broadcasters instead. The windsor change kind of

676
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: blew through there. And there was one case in particular

677
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: that the Supreme Court heard in nineteen seventy nine that

678
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 1: signaled a real change for the fairness doctrine and the

679
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 1: sec applying it. And it was a case that involved

680
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: WJIMTV in Lansing, Michigan, which is owned by a guy

681
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: named Harold Gross.

682
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:30,959
Speaker 3: Yeah.

683
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:35,240
Speaker 2: So the complaint here was that he or the station

684
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 2: rather via Harold Gross, had abused their broadcasting power to

685
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 2: the detriment of the public. So what he did was

686
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,240
Speaker 2: he denied airtime to political rivals in some cases.

687
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 3: In other cases he.

688
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 2: Censored coverage of local businesses if they didn't advertise with them.

689
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was accused of clipping, which is taking like

690
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: when a network delivers a show it has commercial breaks

691
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: in it. He would have his editors go through and

692
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: add even more commercial breaks, which you're not supposed to do.

693
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 3: That was a big one.

694
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: Didn't cover the Jimmy Hoffa disappearance because he didn't like

695
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 1: Jimmy Hoffa's politics, even though it was a national and

696
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: a local story.

697
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

698
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 2: So in nineteen seventy five a hearing by the FCC said,

699
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 2: you know, you violated the fairness rule. We're taking your license, buddy.

700
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 2: But he appealed it and this time he won the appeal.

701
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 2: And like you said, this was a big shift in

702
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 2: the way things were being thought about as far as

703
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:31,839
Speaker 2: the fairness doctrine went.

704
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: Hey, one one more thing about Harold Gross before we

705
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 1: move on this guy. He was such a businessman that

706
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: when he started his TV station in nineteen fifty w JIM,

707
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: he was actually one of the first one hundred and

708
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 1: eight license holders to broadcast on TV. But he wasn't

709
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 1: sure that TV was going to stick around, that it

710
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: was going to take off as a technology, so he

711
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: built the WJIM facilities so that it could be converted

712
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: into a motel if TV didn't go anywhere. So the

713
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: original WJIM TV station had.

714
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 3: A pool out back. What is it now? Do you know?

715
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 3: What is what? The buildings the pool? I don't know.

716
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: I looked up to see if there was anything recent

717
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: about it, and I didn't find any new stuff. But

718
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: I saw a picture of the station and there's definitely

719
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: a pool out back from back in the fifties.

720
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 3: It's got a nice perk, I guess.

721
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: So I wonder if you let anybody swim in it

722
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: or not.

723
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 3: I don't know.

724
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: Maybe if you advertised, he would have let you.

725
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 2: So this was the mid to late seventies, and then

726
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 2: things really really started changing in the nineteen eighties because

727
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 2: that whole thing about remember when we said putting a

728
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 2: pin in spectrum scarcity, that was no longer a problem.

729
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 2: By the mid nineteen eighties, there were more than ten

730
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 2: thousand radio stations, thirteen hundred TV stations, about seventeen hundred newspapers,

731
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 2: and the whole sort of drum beat was like, wait

732
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 2: a minute, there's not a problem here anymore with scarcity.

733
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 3: We should be able to do what we want.

734
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,319
Speaker 2: Because you told newspapers from the very beginning that their

735
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 2: free speech was protected and they could do whatever they want.

736
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 3: Why are we any different.

737
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really big point that a lot of

738
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: people pointed to over the years, is why does this

739
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: just apply to electronic media? Like the print media literally

740
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: has an editorial page where they come out with positions

741
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: on candidates and all this stuff. Why doesn't it apply

742
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: to them? And for years and years and years it

743
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 1: was any schmoke can basically go get a newspaper. Printed

744
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: radio is different because of that spectrum scarcity.

745
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 3: But yeah, as the satellite.

746
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: People came along, and as cable came along, that just

747
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: kind of went out the door. So spectrum scarcity going away,

748
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: and the fact that the newspaper industry, the print media,

749
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: was not regulated anywhere near the same way really kind

750
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: of removed any remaining foundation for the fairness doctrine to

751
00:40:58,880 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 1: stand on.

752
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, So in nineteen eighty five, the FCC kind of

753
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 2: got their gears turning and said, you know what we

754
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 2: think this is.

755
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 3: We want Congress to review this.

756
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 2: Basically, we're going to institute a public comment period even

757
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,399
Speaker 2: and we think we should abandon the personal attack rule

758
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 2: and in this case by case thing right.

759
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 1: And yeah, they did this for like two years, and

760
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: while the SEC's holding like these public hearings on it,

761
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: Congress at the same time was saying, well, we don't

762
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: really want the fairness doctrine to go away, and not

763
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 1: just the left. There was a bipartisan supported bill that

764
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 1: got passed in Congress to codify the fairness doctrine, but

765
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 1: it was vetoed by Reagan and so after that that

766
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: was basically it for the fairness doctrine.

767
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, the FCC voted unanimously to just get rid of it.

768
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 1: They did, and so they didn't actually get rid of it,

769
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: they just stopped enforcing it, or some parts of it.

770
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 1: They kept enforcing I think the personal attack and political

771
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: editorial provisions up until like two thousand, for like another

772
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:15,280
Speaker 1: thirteen years. But the idea that you had to promote

773
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: opposing viewpoints on your television station or your radio station

774
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: that went away starting in nineteen eighty seven, and a

775
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: lot of people say that really changed the American media

776
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: landscape big time.

777
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, depending on who you are.

778
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 3: I know, I'm trying to dance around this.

779
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 2: Depending on who you are, you probably have a very

780
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 2: strong opinion about the fairness doctrine one way or the other,

781
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 2: or you may think it was a mixed thing. It

782
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 2: was definitely a flawed policy. I think everyone agrees that

783
00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 2: it wasn't perfect, But the legacy is really complex. You know,

784
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 2: getting rid of it basically open the door for what

785
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 2: we have today, which is a degraded news standard, minority

786
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: viewpoints that aren't necessarily covered, and how polarized we are

787
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 2: because you know, people dug in and they said, all right,

788
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 2: I'm going to start my super conservative radio stations, and

789
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 2: then people said, I'm going to start my super conservative

790
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 2: liberal website and radio shows, and liberals are going to

791
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 2: listen to theirs, and conservatives are going to listen to theirs,

792
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 2: and never betweens she'll meet.

793
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,959
Speaker 1: Right right, And so especially if you have, like each

794
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: side promoting a viewpointer or an agenda to the detriment

795
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: of the other side. There's like the middle ground is lost,

796
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: which I mean some people, I know, some people aren't

797
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 1: very hip on centrism these days anyway, but I mean

798
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: you can keep a pretty decent sized society together when

799
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: you kind of follow a centrist access upward and onward,

800
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: you know. And I think that to me, the fairness

801
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 1: doctrine showed that. I mean, like, I don't think it's

802
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 1: a big surprise where I fall on whether the fairness

803
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 1: doctrine is a good.

804
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 3: Idea or not. But I just don't think it's.

805
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: Like I can see saying, all these people out here

806
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 1: need good information and it's probably not going to just

807
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: get out there on its own if we the government

808
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: don't step in and say here's how we need to

809
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 1: get good information out. And I think the current media

810
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: landscape is just complete proof positive of that that if

811
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 1: you just don't, if you just let it all go

812
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: free for all, then then you end up with what

813
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 1: we have, that this is what the market offers us

814
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 1: echo chambers, echo chambers, polarization, and a huge division in

815
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: the country without anybody saying well wait, wait, wait, yes,

816
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: over here, you guys are right over here. You guys

817
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,240
Speaker 1: are right and things are really messed up. But also,

818
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: what about this other stuff? We kind of all agree

819
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: on this part, and what about this part. Yeah, we

820
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: have a lot of common ground here. No one's talking

821
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: about that, and that used to be the role that

822
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 1: the media played before.

823
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, one thing we can say is without

824
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 2: the fairness doctrine, we may not have gotten any of

825
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 2: these minority viewpoints. In the nineteen forties and fifties and sixties,

826
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 2: people might not have been as well informed except maybe

827
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 2: via newspaper about the civil rights movement, women's rights movement,

828
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:35,359
Speaker 2: how bad smoking is, about nuclear power plants, like, all

829
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 2: of these things that were sort of in the shadows

830
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 2: were now now had a guaranteed platform. But like we

831
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,399
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, because they didn't really they had to give

832
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 2: these opposing viewpoints. He also could have possibly borne the

833
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 2: anti vacs movement and the climate denial movement and stuff

834
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 2: like that.

835
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 3: So it was flawed, to be sure.

836
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: Sure, Yeah, there's from what I understand, any democrat to

837
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 1: the right of Ralph Nader, which is almost everybody says, yes,

838
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 1: fairness doctrine, what a terrible idea.

839
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 3: Terrible idea.

840
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 1: It was officially repealed in twenty eleven, and if you'll

841
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: think back, that was under the Obama administration. So the

842
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 1: Obama administration's FCC was the one that officially took the

843
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 1: fairness doctrine off of the books, removed it.

844
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean that was a purge. That was

845
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 2: just like there's a bunch of rotten food in the fridge,

846
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 2: and why has no one thrown it out yet?

847
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was also pretty symbolic. You know, it

848
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 1: was a symbolic act, whether they intended it or not.

849
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,839
Speaker 1: But the idea that it was it was removed by

850
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: a democratic, lefty president's administration is it's I don't know,

851
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:47,479
Speaker 1: it's saying something I think.

852
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, here's where we are today.

853
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 2: Though there was a poll, a Gallop polling just last

854
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:57,720
Speaker 2: year in twenty eighteen that's found Americans don't trust the news.

855
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 2: They guess, let me see, sixty two percent of what

856
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 2: they hear is biased, forty four percent is inaccurate, and

857
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 2: thirty nine percent is misinformation.

858
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 1: That's those numbers seem low to me.

859
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 3: That's not a great place to be in as a country. Though.

860
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 1: No, it's a terrible place. It's a scary place, Like,

861
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 1: how is this country still together, you know.

862
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

863
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 1: But and the other thing is we're going to get

864
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: so much guff because we didn't come out and just

865
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 1: stay completely down the middle. But I mean, I want

866
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: to say, like I understand where people on the right

867
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: are coming from with this, Like ideologically, this is censorship

868
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 1: and the prohibition of the exercise of free speech, and

869
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: that is one of that is a core founding value

870
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: of conservativism and libertarianism. So like I can understand how

871
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 1: you look at the fairness doctrine and be like, this

872
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 1: is government overreach and it's worst and its worst examples,

873
00:47:58,960 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 1: you know.

874
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, But it's like it wasn't it wasn't like state

875
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 2: run radio, you know. No, it wasn't like the government,

876
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 2: the federal government propagandizing their agenda.

877
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 3: Right.

878
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, it was saying like, hey, you can say

879
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: this viewpoint, you also have to show the other viewpoint.

880
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 1: To me, that's almost impossible to argue with.

881
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think newspapers of.

882
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 2: High standing still on their editorial page kind of print

883
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 2: the two opposing opinions side by side.

884
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what op ed stands for, is opposite the

885
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 1: editorial page. So the editorial page will be the newspaper's

886
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,840
Speaker 1: opinion their editorial board, and then on the literal opposite

887
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: page is the basically the opposing pinion of that. Yeah,

888
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: it's just a high journalistic standard. But this is the

889
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 1: government saying this. Newspapers do this on their own, I guess,

890
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: just out of tradition, whereas electronic media is a little

891
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: more wild westy than that.

892
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 3: That's right. So here we are today.

893
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,760
Speaker 1: Pretty interesting times we live in, and it's all because

894
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 1: the fairness doctrine went away. Anyway, thanks for listening to

895
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 1: this episode of stuff.

896
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 3: You should know.

897
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about the fairness doctrine,

898
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:16,959
Speaker 1: just go outside see how you like things. And since

899
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: I said that, it's time for listener.

900
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 2: Mail, I'm going to call this the sound of our voices.

901
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 2: All I'm sorry, let me say this the color of

902
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 2: our voices.

903
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I know what my voice is. Color. This

904
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 3: is good. In fact, yours isn't even color. This is

905
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 3: more of a field thing.

906
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 2: Okay, So hey, guys, I listened to the episode on

907
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 2: perfect pitch. You mentioned that cinistets are often good candidates

908
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 2: for having perfect pitch. I fall into the category of

909
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 2: being someone who possesses both. I've been serious about my

910
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 2: musicianship since my earliest recollections of life. And that's when

911
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 2: I began involuntarily hearing all the individual musical notes and

912
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 2: their own unique, unchanging colors. For example, the sound of

913
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 2: the note F. I should have brought in, Dude, I've

914
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 2: bought one of those little what do you call it?

915
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 3: Pitch pipe? I bought a pitch pipe. Why didn't you

916
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 3: bring it in?

917
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 2: No, I should have brought it in. The one note harmonica,

918
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 2: I should have bought two.

919
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 3: I'm going to buy you one.

920
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: I would love it. Can you have it engraved too?

921
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 3: Sure? Okay?

922
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 2: So the sound of F for Alison has never not

923
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 2: caused a rush of the color orange to sweep over

924
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 2: her from head to foot. I also hear people's individual

925
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 2: voices and colors. What's unique about voices to me? They're

926
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 2: incredibly textured in and of themselves. You guys have voice

927
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 2: colors and textures.

928
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 1: I love mine, read mine.

929
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:38,760
Speaker 3: Josh's voice.

930
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:44,760
Speaker 2: Anytime I hear it sounds like suede. If Swede Swede

931
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 2: could make a sound painted medium to dark brown with

932
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,320
Speaker 2: a tiny hint of easter egg purple, that's your voice.

933
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: That is a lovely combo. If you ask me.

934
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 2: Chuck's voice, on the other hand, has zero fuzzed to

935
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 2: it at all. Chuck's voice is very, very metallic, almost shimmery,

936
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 2: like you're gazing upon a deep blue green body of

937
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 2: water and you can see straight to the bottom.

938
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 3: Nice.

939
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 1: That's a nice voice right there.

940
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 3: Check. These are both great voices. Yeah, I'm very happy that.

941
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 2: I mean, who knows what could have come out of

942
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 2: this email.

943
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 3: You here's like a puke and yours sounds like nails

944
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 3: on a chalkboard.

945
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 2: The end, I've come to find out that no two

946
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 2: voice colors are exactly the same, kind of like thumbprints

947
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,800
Speaker 2: and snowflakes. A person's voice color does not morph into

948
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 2: something else either if they suddenly start speaking in another language,

949
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 2: And it also has nothing to do with his or

950
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 2: her particular personality type. So they're not saying you're smooth

951
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 2: like suede on like.

952
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 3: As a person.

953
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: Oh yes, clearly, I think that I'm a shimmery as

954
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 1: a person.

955
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 2: The point of the matter, I delight in hearing both

956
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 2: of your voices nearly every day.

957
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 3: Is a tune. End of the show.

958
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 2: It's become a staple in my daily existence. Keep on

959
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 2: being wonderful. That is from Alison, who is at our

960
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:57,800
Speaker 2: Salt Lake City show. She interacted with us from the crowd.

961
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 1: That's great. Thank you for interacting with Alison.

962
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 2: We appreciate that it's illegal at our shows, but she

963
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,319
Speaker 2: goes I think I asked a question and she answered it.

964
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: It's against the rules, that's what they say. Well, thanks Alison.

965
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 1: That was one of the more interesting emails we've ever received. Frankly,

966
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 1: if you want to be like Alison and go to

967
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: one of our live shows, you will never regret it

968
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 1: for a single moment in your entire life. And if

969
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with us like Alison

970
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,720
Speaker 1: did too, you can go onto our website, stuff youshould

971
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 1: Know dot com, follow our social links there, or you

972
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 1: can send us an email send it off to stuff

973
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

974
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

975
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,360
Speaker 2: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

976
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.