Speaker 1: Welcome back to Cutting the Distance.
Speaker 2: I met today's guest in my booth at the Pacific
Speaker 2: Northwest Sportsman Show probably eight nine years ago. He was
Speaker 2: a quiet guy. He didn't say a whole lot. He
Speaker 2: was kind of sitting in the corner, and I knew
Speaker 2: he was good at long range hunting and I was
Speaker 2: kind of getting into it, so I kind of forced
Speaker 2: him to talk to men.
Speaker 1: That's not exactly how it goes.
Speaker 2: He's a great guy, just very very quiet, and I
Speaker 2: was getting more into my rifles, you know, my loads,
Speaker 2: figuring out how to get all my equipment dialed, and
Speaker 2: he was a great resource. So John Pinch is my
Speaker 2: guest today. I don't know, he's too humble to probably
Speaker 2: tell you how many, but I know he's won hundreds
Speaker 2: of shooting events between the nrl PRS and other shooting events.
Speaker 2: When he's not shooting, it seems to be traveling on
Speaker 2: some pretty pretty kick ass big game hunts across the country.
Speaker 2: He'd want to be better known as a family man.
Speaker 2: I know he's got two kids, you know, a wife
Speaker 2: that they spend a lot of time with.
Speaker 1: And so welcome to the show.
Speaker 3: John, thanks for having me.
Speaker 4: Jason, good talking me. I don't know if I spend
Speaker 4: a lot of time at home because I've gone so much,
Speaker 4: but yeah, my wife and kids are awesome.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how's everything going.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, it's been going good.
Speaker 4: Been pretty busy, traveling a lot the last like November
Speaker 4: December was real busy.
Speaker 3: So it's actually been really laid back.
Speaker 4: Just past New Year's here, had a pretty fun Christmas,
Speaker 4: been hanging out with the boys and just landlow working
Speaker 4: on some stuff at the house.
Speaker 3: It feels pretty good.
Speaker 4: So kind of revamp and getting ready for this next year,
Speaker 4: making some plans for business and shooting. And I've done
Speaker 4: landscaping for a long time, kind of phasing out of
Speaker 4: that slowly, but I think this year is looking pretty
Speaker 4: good to hopefully wrap that up and focus continue to
Speaker 4: focus more on the shooting side of things.
Speaker 3: So it's going good.
Speaker 2: So that's a great segue, John, like, what does a
Speaker 2: typical year for you look like as far as hunting
Speaker 2: versus shooting? Like, what's what's a year in your life
Speaker 2: look like?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I fly by the.
Speaker 4: Seat of my pants a little bit more than some
Speaker 4: of my buddies where they playing out their whole year
Speaker 4: starting in.
Speaker 3: Probably let's see into this month.
Speaker 4: January, the shoots start kicking off Interill Hunter and PRS,
Speaker 4: which is the Precision Rifle League for Precision Rifle.
Speaker 3: Series, and.
Speaker 4: There's shoots all over US, Canada, you know, went to
Speaker 4: South Africa this year to shoot one, There's something Norway.
Speaker 4: They're all over so pretty much you could shoot almost
Speaker 4: every weekend, especially through the spring and early summer. The
Speaker 4: heat of the summer kind of moved some of the
Speaker 4: matches around, Like generally there's not a lot of Arizona
Speaker 4: matches in the middle of the summer and stuff like that.
Speaker 4: So I usually am kind of if I have an
Speaker 4: open weekend, you know, there's not a fan a big
Speaker 4: family event, or you know, I.
Speaker 3: Try to get to the kids baseball.
Speaker 4: Tournaments and stuff as much as possible. But as long
Speaker 4: as I got an open weekend, I'm usually booking a
Speaker 4: flight somewhere and hitting the shoot somewhere. So I try
Speaker 4: to shoot as much as I can. Hunting Trump's competent.
Speaker 4: So the last couple of years we had hunts booked
Speaker 4: over the Precision Rifle Series finale, I took a little
Speaker 4: wind out of my sales for really hitting the season hard.
Speaker 3: Knowing I couldn't shoot the championship, so I shot.
Speaker 4: Three four matches instead of you know, eight to twelve
Speaker 4: or some guys are shooting fifteen eighteen.
Speaker 3: Matches a year, which which is a lot.
Speaker 4: That's a lot of flights, a lot of travel, getting
Speaker 4: guns ready and everything. So I try to shoot as
Speaker 4: mini shoots as I can, schedule permitting, and hopefully I'm
Speaker 4: doing more in the next few years the way some
Speaker 4: of my schedules changing.
Speaker 3: But then hunting trump's all that.
Speaker 4: So some of our hunts we've got dates booked and
Speaker 4: planning for next year. Other ones we try to keep
Speaker 4: a pretty loose schedule, and we've hit multiple cancelation hunts
Speaker 4: the last few years. Just went up to Kodiak last minute,
Speaker 4: just on a DII thing a few weeks ago. That's
Speaker 4: when you, I think you initially texted me view podcasts
Speaker 4: is like I'm heading out on a planing tomorrow to
Speaker 4: a little drop camp. So I was trying to kill
Speaker 4: a sick of b locktails. But yeah, kind of some
Speaker 4: of that stuff's just like I said, last minute, But
Speaker 4: that's kind of the way schedule looks. I'm so we're
Speaker 4: got family kids, we got baseball, we got you know,
Speaker 4: fun stuff going on like that.
Speaker 2: Too, so gotcha so so real busy. You could shoot
Speaker 2: as much as you want, Then do you do you
Speaker 2: tend to focus on PRS more so or NRL or
Speaker 2: do you have to hit like a certain amount of
Speaker 2: events to qualify? Like how how do you juggle that
Speaker 2: as well? Like there's all these different events or maybe
Speaker 2: just like you know, single events, like how do you
Speaker 2: how do you how do you play the game?
Speaker 3: I mean it's kind of kind of personal preference. I've
Speaker 3: done Interall Hunter, probably a little more I wanted to.
Speaker 4: There's a an interal Hunter. There's there's an open class,
Speaker 4: which you're done. Can weigh sixteen pounds or less, so
Speaker 4: you can run whatever you want up to sixteen pounds.
Speaker 3: There's Light class, which is twelve pounds or less.
Speaker 4: There's factory which they have a list of factory rifles
Speaker 4: you can't modem at all. You take it out of
Speaker 4: the box at Tica Brigar or whatever their list is.
Speaker 4: And then there's teams when two guys can sign up
Speaker 4: and shoot teams. And I wanted to be the first
Speaker 4: one that won every class. So take an open gun
Speaker 4: and when the overall shoot not just first in that
Speaker 4: class take a light gun and when the entire shoot,
Speaker 4: and then take a factory gun and beat all the
Speaker 4: custom rifle guys for the entire shoot, and then do
Speaker 4: it in the teams. And so I actually shot in
Speaker 4: a hunter fair bit because I did. I did that,
Speaker 4: So that was kind of just an internal goal of mine,
Speaker 4: and so that's what I did. More so, I probably
Speaker 4: I think I shot four PRS matches last year five
Speaker 4: and ended up shooting.
Speaker 3: I was able to shoot the finale this year.
Speaker 4: Dude, I got six of the finale, so it was good.
Speaker 4: It's the top two hundred and fifty guys and so
Speaker 4: I shot. I had a good match, but I had
Speaker 4: one bad stage that you know, he takes nothing to
Speaker 4: drop to drop a few spots.
Speaker 3: So it's, uh, there's some killers there.
Speaker 4: There's a bunch of really good I have a really
Speaker 4: good friends in that in that in that group, and
Speaker 4: some guys that are super dedicated to it. So it's yeah,
Speaker 4: just kind of I kind of ebb and flow, like
Speaker 4: this year I want to hit perrs a little bit more.
Speaker 3: It's it's uh, it's heavy, more purpose.
Speaker 4: Built guns, where in or all Hunter is more hunting
Speaker 4: type of guns where the PRS is you know, it's
Speaker 4: a you're shooting a twenty pounds you know, six sixty
Speaker 4: five twenty five cal gun, not much recoil, lots of movement,
Speaker 4: real fast shooting, which I'm I'm real good at. But
Speaker 4: it's the pinnacle shooting, like it is the best shooters
Speaker 4: in the world. Yeah, and I want to shoot that
Speaker 4: more just because it makes me better.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Interial Hunter is a different It combines glassing, u position building,
Speaker 4: it combines a lot of different elements that I love.
Speaker 3: But just purely shooting PRS.
Speaker 2: Is Yeah, is difficult because there's target acquisition in NRAL,
Speaker 2: Like you have to spot your target, get your own,
Speaker 2: you know, all of that, which adds into the game.
Speaker 1: The game.
Speaker 2: So I want to I want to rewind this a
Speaker 2: little bit. You would never say this, but it was
Speaker 2: internally in your head. You basically took a gun that
Speaker 2: you could buy off of a shelf and then went
Speaker 2: and beat the some shooters shooting the best, most fancy
Speaker 2: guns that you could build.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I did barely by idea.
Speaker 2: So I mean you would, like I said, you're you're
Speaker 2: very you know, modest, humble, But but that just kind
Speaker 2: of for all the listeners. Lets you in the kind
Speaker 2: of how good John is and he'll never say it,
Speaker 2: but I mean to take a gun that's that's literally
Speaker 2: a stock gun and beating you know, custom rifles. It
Speaker 2: kind of just hints to to how good you are
Speaker 2: behind a gun and you know, your your dedication, your time.
Speaker 2: You know you're always shooting, always reload, and always tinkering,
Speaker 2: and so it goes along ways to to kind of
Speaker 2: just explain, you know, the level that you're at. And
Speaker 2: so I think that's that's worth stating. So we're gonna
Speaker 2: we're gonna jump into some into some listener questions now
Speaker 2: like we always do, because you are a couple question
Speaker 2: answers we've we've pulled from social media. If you have
Speaker 2: questions for me or my guests, please email them to
Speaker 2: us at c T D at Phelps game Calls dot com,
Speaker 2: or hit us up on a social media message or
Speaker 2: a social post. So our first question today comes from Tyson.
Speaker 2: I screwed that all up, Tyson Lundahl, how do you
Speaker 2: go about judging for win down range and over terrain features?
Speaker 2: And I know this is probably like the trickiest part
Speaker 2: of everything. We're going to talk about later. You know, like,
Speaker 2: there isn't wind on your ridge. What are the science
Speaker 2: or what are you picking out out there to make
Speaker 2: your wind call? Which which I I don't know your answer,
Speaker 2: but I'm going to assume that that up and down
Speaker 2: is pretty easy for the most part. But left and
Speaker 2: right is where the whole game and the art comes in.
Speaker 2: But go ahead and explain, like what you can use
Speaker 2: to figure out when?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So, I mean, so there's there's the art and
Speaker 3: the science of long range shooting, and wind is the art. Right,
Speaker 3: there's it's never fixed, it's you're never on a flat plane.
Speaker 3: There's ups, there's downs, there's left, there's rights, there's eddies,
Speaker 3: there's box canyons that swirl. So so there's the science.
Speaker 4: You know, there's a lot of data, there's a lot
Speaker 4: of blissed calculators, there's a lot of things that do
Speaker 4: a really good job with cross wind, jump and every
Speaker 4: variable you can imagine. And then there's the art of it.
Speaker 4: And so there isn't a hard and fast answer. You
Speaker 4: pretty much you look at anything you can get. You
Speaker 4: if there's grass, if there's trees, if there's anything in
Speaker 4: the air, if there's rain, if there's fog, anything that
Speaker 4: you can see you take into account obviously. I mean
Speaker 4: it's kind of a kind of a no brainer. Some
Speaker 4: people say, oh, you watch train when water rolls, and yeah,
Speaker 4: that's that's good, But that doesn't also cover water doesn't
Speaker 4: roll uphill.
Speaker 3: And so if there's a big.
Speaker 4: Updraft, like I don't know, Like so I've had some
Speaker 4: big up drafts.
Speaker 3: If I'm say I'm on.
Speaker 4: A valley, I'm up here, I'm shooting over here more
Speaker 4: it's actually more if I'm up here and this is
Speaker 4: a long valley running out and there's like kind of
Speaker 4: hills on this you know, here and here, and there's
Speaker 4: a valley coming at you, and the wind's coming at you.
Speaker 4: If I'm shooting across to those with a strong wind
Speaker 4: in your face, you'll get a bit. I'll get a
Speaker 4: big updraft.
Speaker 3: On this hill.
Speaker 4: That wind's ripping up this hill, and it'll hold my
Speaker 4: bullet up. And so those are all things that are
Speaker 4: so hard to take into account. It kind of leads
Speaker 4: into another I think the most important thing that you
Speaker 4: can do as a shooter, and it's it changed a
Speaker 4: lot of my I don't know philosophy is the right.
Speaker 3: Word, but.
Speaker 4: Gun build choice weights calibers, so I can spot my
Speaker 4: own shot. You have to see where your bullet lands.
Speaker 4: And a lot of guys don't. A lot of guys
Speaker 4: shoot the recoils gone. They rely on their buddy, and
Speaker 4: if they're solo, they're out of lock. They shoot and
Speaker 4: they hope they hit it. And if you can spot
Speaker 4: your shots, stuff happens. You can make a bad wind call,
Speaker 4: you can do anything. But if you can spot your shot,
Speaker 4: generally you can measure that and make a quick correction
Speaker 4: and get a second round impact.
Speaker 3: That's not ideal.
Speaker 4: I'm just saying there's stuff happens, and no one's ever
Speaker 4: right one hundred percent of time on wind. And so
Speaker 4: if I'm on the canyon and it's calm where I'm at,
Speaker 4: generally you can hear wind, or you can see wind,
Speaker 4: you know something's going on. If it's that far, if
Speaker 4: it's if you're two canyons away, generally you're talking like
Speaker 4: thousand plus yards depending on the train. I'm gonna recommend
Speaker 4: cutting the distance. I'm not the long range guy. I've
Speaker 4: shot as much as anybody or more, and I'm not
Speaker 4: I'm never the guy that backs up to another one
Speaker 4: hundred yards so I shoot a thousand instead of nine hundred,
Speaker 4: and I'm not going to post that on social We
Speaker 4: made a lot of long shots.
Speaker 3: I'm never gonna people ask how far. I just don't
Speaker 3: say I don't.
Speaker 4: There's elements of long range shooting that I love it,
Speaker 4: but I also I hate the social media. I killed
Speaker 4: this at fourteen hundred yards of one shot. I was like, well,
Speaker 4: you couldn't do that. If we went out and on steel,
Speaker 4: you'd missed that steel a lot. I know you would
Speaker 4: because I've shot more than you.
Speaker 3: Not to sound arrogant, but yeah, it's hard, and so
Speaker 3: you take anything. I mean, generally, you can hear wind.
Speaker 4: You can see it, especially evergreen trees are real easy
Speaker 4: to read, big fir trees. You can see the directs
Speaker 4: and the winds hitting the backside of the trees relatively
Speaker 4: calm the front the branches are kind of peeling around,
Speaker 4: and then it's just experience. Hey, is that a seven over?
Speaker 3: There? Is that a fifteen mile an hour?
Speaker 4: And then if it's dead for three hundred yards, you
Speaker 4: don't have wind until you hit four and five hundred yards,
Speaker 4: so you can We're getting a little deep here for
Speaker 4: a podcast, but you can you can run your brackets out.
Speaker 3: Like when you shoot. When you shoot a.
Speaker 4: Bullet, the biggest deflections right out of your gun. If
Speaker 4: you take a bullet off course out of the muzzle,
Speaker 4: it's going to be way off course down range.
Speaker 3: If it doesn't go off course till.
Speaker 4: Three or four hundred yards, if you're protected along a
Speaker 4: clear cut tree line, or it's just you're in this
Speaker 4: some sort of you're in the bottom and it doesn't
Speaker 4: get into the wind until you shoot out the top.
Speaker 3: Then you're cutting your wind drift down.
Speaker 4: The first four hundred yards don't see wind and maybe
Speaker 4: the last three hundred yards see a fifteen mile an hour.
Speaker 3: So you can kind of break that down into brackets
Speaker 3: of what it's going to do.
Speaker 4: All that comes from experience. I wish I had like
Speaker 4: this really good answer. You do this, this, and this.
Speaker 4: It doesn't exist. It's an art. It comes from a
Speaker 4: lot of practice and taking everything into account. What I
Speaker 4: see a lot of guys do is the moment happens.
Speaker 4: It's quick. Half the times they forget to dial something
Speaker 4: or what just they don't level their gun. Go through
Speaker 4: your checklist, make sure your range is perfect. These are
Speaker 4: no brainer things. Make sure your levels perfect. Take a
Speaker 4: second to slow down and make a really good thought
Speaker 4: process on wind. Study the trees, study the cobwebs, floating
Speaker 4: anything you can see, and don't be afraid to hold wind.
Speaker 4: In the comp world, we talk about like missing on
Speaker 4: the pro side. So beginners always miss downwind. They never
Speaker 4: hold enough wind, and so missing on the pro side
Speaker 4: would be missing upwind. If you're gonna if I'm gonna
Speaker 4: miss a plan, I want to miss upwind because you
Speaker 4: rarely overjudge wind. It's just like a natural tendency. People
Speaker 4: will get scared.
Speaker 1: To hold down much hold that far.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean there's a lot of things we
Speaker 3: could go.
Speaker 4: You know, we could talk about this forever, but I
Speaker 4: think just slow down and be very aware if you're
Speaker 4: not comfortable.
Speaker 3: Cut distance.
Speaker 4: Generally, if you're looking over a couple of canyons, you
Speaker 4: can get to the next ridge. Yeah, just cut the distance,
Speaker 4: get to six hundred seven hundrey yards.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And one of the things you know, especially on wind,
Speaker 2: that I like to do is in my ballistic calculator,
Speaker 2: if I if I think it could be a five,
Speaker 2: but then it could be a ten, I want to
Speaker 2: go look at the difference like how much error is
Speaker 2: in my my calculation? And if it's more than what's
Speaker 2: acceptable at that range, then I need to get closer,
Speaker 2: you know. And so it's like, how confident am I
Speaker 2: that this is a five or a ten or if
Speaker 2: it's only five hundred yards, it's not gonna matter, right,
Speaker 2: But if if I'm taking a shot at seven or
Speaker 2: eight hundred and it starts to move that bullet an
Speaker 2: extra you know, whatever it might be, I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: that's not that's not ethical, you know, in my opinion,
Speaker 2: then I need to get closer or not take the shot.
Speaker 2: And so I do a lot of that, Like here's
Speaker 2: my envelope. I think it could be as low as three,
Speaker 2: it could be as high as ten. And then like
Speaker 2: where does that move my bullet? And can I compensate
Speaker 2: for that? Am I still going to hit vitals if
Speaker 2: I'm at either end? And can I you know, split that?
Speaker 2: Like you say, it's all in art what you're comfortable with,
Speaker 2: And I'm gonna go This kind of a good segue
Speaker 2: to our next question from Charlie Smith, who's my buddy
Speaker 2: of my good time hunting partner.
Speaker 3: You guys, is this banter online?
Speaker 2: As always gone, oh yeah, and this this this banner
Speaker 2: kind of comes into this question where it's stuff that
Speaker 2: we all talk about behind the scenes, but when you
Speaker 2: you don't want to necessarily knock long range hunting. But
Speaker 2: so Charlie Smith's question is do you think long range
Speaker 2: rifles are ruining hunting? Which is is a fair question.
Speaker 2: And when you say ruining hunting, is it ruining our season?
Speaker 2: Shortening them? Is it taking too many animals? But like,
Speaker 2: what's your opinion on that? Because it is something that
Speaker 2: I feel like we should have to be able to
Speaker 2: answer if you're gonna shoot. And then the other thing
Speaker 2: is what is long range hunting defined as, which I
Speaker 2: don't even want to get into right now, but like
Speaker 2: in your opinion.
Speaker 1: Is this whole long range movement? Is it? Is it
Speaker 1: affecting hunting? And to what degree?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I mean I don't I don't understand how you you
Speaker 4: could say it's not. How is technology not? I mean
Speaker 4: when I started archery, I mean I shot archer for years,
Speaker 4: years ago, a forty fifty yard shot was a tough shot.
Speaker 4: Now now my bow's got a slider and I can
Speaker 4: you can stackers at a hundred yards like it's it's
Speaker 4: and you look at muzzleloaders, right, you look at these
Speaker 4: crazy muzzleloaders that are shooting smoke powder some of the states.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think those rules are changing. But there's
Speaker 4: buzzle there's five six, seven hundred yards, you know, and
Speaker 4: so yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3: More animals are dying. People are getting better at hunting.
Speaker 4: There's so much information like this podcast and many others
Speaker 4: and internet forums.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think it is. I think states.
Speaker 4: I think I worry about a lot hunting. I've had
Speaker 4: the opportunity to go on some high end hunts that
Speaker 4: are out of my budget that because of the buddy
Speaker 4: I have and experienced both sides the thing. I mean,
Speaker 4: I grew up over the counter hunting and I live
Speaker 4: in western Oregon, grew up in western Washington. So we're
Speaker 4: hunting roses and blacktails parked in the trailhead which used
Speaker 4: to be three or four trucks now it's ten or twenty,
Speaker 4: and so we all see the same thing. I see
Speaker 4: how money is affecting opportunity big time. It's not a
Speaker 4: good thing or a bad thing. It just is what
Speaker 4: it is. And hunting is, yeah, killing stuff with the
Speaker 4: rifles easy than it used to be. I think unfortunately
Speaker 4: fish you know, fish and game departments get funding from
Speaker 4: tag sales, and they're not going to cut numbers, and
Speaker 4: I wish they would. I think there needs to be
Speaker 4: less opportunity. I mean, you look at Arizona and the
Speaker 4: way they look at hunting. I got a lot of
Speaker 4: buddies down there. They apply it their whole life, and
Speaker 4: they hunt with other people because they draw every five, ten,
Speaker 4: fifteen years, but they hunt every year with the group
Speaker 4: just because tags are so hard to get. I don't
Speaker 4: like that, but there's the reality of supplying demand quality
Speaker 4: I don't and it's also a different value.
Speaker 3: Some guys like to go into to fkinhorn. I want to, like.
Speaker 4: I love the idea of finding a big buck, so
Speaker 4: I wish there were you know, I wish there needs
Speaker 4: to be less tags in some areas.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a sticky people are going to get
Speaker 3: fired up. But yeah, I think it does. It makes
Speaker 3: it easier in some ways. I don't like the guys.
Speaker 4: Already mentioned this that are like puffing their chest up
Speaker 4: because they shot so far.
Speaker 3: The brag adocious of that kind.
Speaker 4: Of stuff bugs me, but it happens in every everything
Speaker 4: I shot. This at fifty five yards with my trad
Speaker 4: and ball. I shot this at one twenty with my compound.
Speaker 4: I shot this at five hundred with a muzzleoader, and
Speaker 4: I show this at fifteen hundred with the center fire.
Speaker 4: It's the same thing across the board. Everyone's getting better,
Speaker 4: everyone's getting dead deadler in technologies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, incredible.
Speaker 3: We we're Oh, I mean, I don't I don't know
Speaker 3: what the answer is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, No, I think I think we both know.
Speaker 2: And and I'm I'm on the side where yeah, we've
Speaker 2: got and I would I say we, I I should
Speaker 2: be careful to put myself on the same boat as you,
Speaker 2: but like we have the ability to shoot to shoot
Speaker 2: like long range, but I take more pride. And then
Speaker 2: I snuck into that bucket one hundred and fifty, you know,
Speaker 2: or one hundred. Yeah, I had a long range rifle,
Speaker 2: but I was still hunting, you know. And and I
Speaker 2: just it seems like you just have the skills necessary
Speaker 2: to take the long range shot if you need to,
Speaker 2: or a follow up shot. But you know, I just
Speaker 2: assume see a trad guy kill at five yards, you know,
Speaker 2: or or a compound guy kill at ten, you know,
Speaker 2: whether they can shoot at a hundred or not is
Speaker 2: a different story.
Speaker 1: But to me, that's the challenge one percent.
Speaker 4: I mean, we all want to be ethical and competent.
Speaker 4: I loved archery hunting. I shot more balls and deer
Speaker 4: with my deer. I shot more elk with both than
Speaker 4: I have with a gun, and shot quite a few deer.
Speaker 4: And I liked it because it was challenging. When I
Speaker 4: back in the day, I had sided my whatever I
Speaker 4: was shooting with my thirty six or three hundred wind
Speaker 4: bag or whatever, and.
Speaker 3: Then I was done. I was like, it's not fun
Speaker 3: to shoot that gun at two hundred yards.
Speaker 4: And so I was geeking out on the archery side,
Speaker 4: and then found out about long range a long time ago,
Speaker 4: and it just was interesting.
Speaker 3: It was fun.
Speaker 4: It was challenging again. It was fun to make wind calls.
Speaker 4: It was fun to learn that art of it, and
Speaker 4: so and then I started hunting that way, and.
Speaker 3: It is fun. I mean, this year, pretty short kills.
Speaker 3: I got shot.
Speaker 4: I killed the big white, my biggest white tail at
Speaker 4: sixty five yards.
Speaker 3: I was working it was working these doughs and it
Speaker 3: was in this thick stuff.
Speaker 4: I just worked in on it and then you know,
Speaker 4: shot my sidkat a couple hundred, I don't two fifty.
Speaker 3: Just a lot of closer arrange stuff this year. It's
Speaker 3: is it easy? I think it's easier to shoot an
Speaker 3: animal four to six hundred yards than it is at
Speaker 3: fifty to one hundred most of the time because it's calm.
Speaker 3: I'm prone, like I'm not going to miss that shot, yeap,
Speaker 3: And so yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's a it is a debate, and I
Speaker 4: totally get it.
Speaker 3: I'm not one that's going to defend it.
Speaker 4: I don't like when guys pick sides like compound guys
Speaker 4: or muzzle or guys.
Speaker 3: We're all We're all doing the same thing. The game is.
Speaker 3: It's the sports change. And it's been weird the last
Speaker 3: three years watching watching the money and everything change. And
Speaker 3: it's a lot of it's all of it, it's all over,
Speaker 3: it's social media, it's everything. But it's it is changing quick.
Speaker 3: I don't know. It will be interesting to see where
Speaker 3: it goes.
Speaker 2: I think that if if we're going to be willing
Speaker 2: to do it, we just have to accept or like
Speaker 2: you said, make change like Arizona, that our seasons may
Speaker 2: shorten because our take's going to be higher. We're going to,
Speaker 2: you know, because of some of these things and technology advancements.
Speaker 2: But then I don't want to be a hypocrite and
Speaker 2: say that we shouldn't have them because I'm also using them,
Speaker 2: because otherwise, if you're not, if you don't have the
Speaker 2: ability year behind everybody. And so I I think it's
Speaker 2: just a personal decision. I like the the art and
Speaker 2: the science and the nerdiness behind it and getting the
Speaker 2: setup that you're just like, you know, super confident, and
Speaker 2: you know, for me, like five hundred yards, like I'm
Speaker 2: gonna put this bullet inside of a two inch circle
Speaker 2: at five hundred like no question where before you know,
Speaker 2: growing up, I had a three by nine loopol Very
Speaker 2: X two where you're like.
Speaker 1: Oh, just aim at the post.
Speaker 2: You know, that's all you ever heard on those duplexes
Speaker 2: like fire no matter what, gun, no matter what.
Speaker 3: And then put on the back, put on the back
Speaker 3: to one thousand yards.
Speaker 2: And then the one thing that really drives me nuts,
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna throw some of my own family under
Speaker 2: the bus, you know, because they had custom guns built
Speaker 2: because we were out doing it and maybe taking longer shots.
Speaker 2: And you know, I can like my Dad, you get
Speaker 2: like ten bolts down the barrel and be like all right,
Speaker 2: build my dope chart and showed me how to dial
Speaker 2: this thing, you know, And I'm like, well, I don't
Speaker 2: know if like you don't have a coach there or
Speaker 2: like understanding all this. And like my uncle going on
Speaker 2: a deer hunh it this year, like he never chronoled it.
Speaker 2: He went off of like somebody else's load data for
Speaker 2: a different gun, and then like, oh, I should be good.
Speaker 1: He's He's like I should be good like eight hundred
Speaker 1: right with this.
Speaker 2: I'm like, no, you don't, like you haven't confirmed anything
Speaker 2: besides a starting point, you know.
Speaker 1: And it's the same.
Speaker 4: It's the same guys that get their gun boar sided
Speaker 4: Sportsman the night before season and think they're ready to
Speaker 4: go hunt. It's the same guys that buy a bow
Speaker 4: the week before season.
Speaker 3: So it's the same. It's the same mentality.
Speaker 4: There's uh yeah, it's yeah, I know.
Speaker 3: What it is. There were guys outside care we don't
Speaker 3: geek out like we do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they think that just buying the equipment gets
Speaker 2: him there, you know, and it's like, no, there's a
Speaker 2: lot more to this, and so all diverge I know
Speaker 2: Charlie brought that up more as a joke, but it's
Speaker 2: something that we talk about. When when I said, when
Speaker 2: we say ruining hunting, I wouldn't say it's ruining it,
Speaker 2: but it's definitely affecting it in.
Speaker 3: A change way.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 3: I mean, but what isn't like how has ONYX not
Speaker 3: changed it?
Speaker 4: How is everything we do like the application served us
Speaker 4: and mapping and everything.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I mean you could throw you could
Speaker 2: throw us under the bus, like easier to use calls
Speaker 2: now you have more people that can use and so yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean I'd be hypocritical to say this, but it's
Speaker 2: just something I think is as a as a general
Speaker 2: group of people, you know, hunters, we just have to
Speaker 2: think about and make good decisions moving forward.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 4: I think just being aware of it, having a discussion.
Speaker 4: Everyone's using technology. The better trucks are farther, cutting gears lighter,
Speaker 4: you can go in deeper, you stay drier, you stay warmer.
Speaker 3: Everything we do.
Speaker 4: Nutrition is lighter, peak put forty grams of protein instead
Speaker 4: of ten like Mountain.
Speaker 3: Everything's better, right, so you can you can do I
Speaker 3: think the discussion and just to beware you can't get mad.
Speaker 4: About it, but I think you've got to be open
Speaker 4: to potential tag cut numbers and being not drawn as much.
Speaker 3: I think that's ultimately where we need to go. I
Speaker 3: don't know that when we do that.
Speaker 4: Because fishing games were lying on the sales, we'll see
Speaker 4: it's and then now we got wolves.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we won't get into that one range. There's
Speaker 3: no ethical distance for a wolf, so take that.
Speaker 2: So this is this one may just pertain the long range,
Speaker 2: and I'll let you put the parameters on it. So
Speaker 2: when do you take and this comes from my buddy
Speaker 2: Cody Wilson, not a whoming when do you look at
Speaker 2: things like asthmuth and and bullets like spin drift, Like
Speaker 2: when do those things come into play? Is that only
Speaker 2: when you're looking at like really long range and maybe
Speaker 2: explain asthmuth for people that you know don't understand.
Speaker 4: For coriolis, yeah, you take a heading that generally referring
Speaker 4: to coriols a fact the rotation of the earth. I mean,
Speaker 4: that's I would say, I don't want to say never,
Speaker 4: but pretty much never.
Speaker 3: That's not going to affect anything.
Speaker 4: Spin drift absolutely, I mean, you'll get for sure, have
Speaker 4: your spind drift on in your calculators.
Speaker 3: If you're zeroed almost all barrels or right twist, which
Speaker 3: means if you're your zero is.
Speaker 4: Dead on left right, you're gonna hit right at distance
Speaker 4: because your bullet's rolling to the right. So yes, absolutely
Speaker 4: use that spin drift is going to be.
Speaker 3: It's going to be. It depends on the caliber and
Speaker 3: the twist.
Speaker 4: You know, it can be four or five six inches
Speaker 4: of a thousand plus or minus, and it's definitely moving
Speaker 4: your bullets.
Speaker 3: So yes, do spin drift Coreyolis.
Speaker 4: Or your asthmuth not near as important, I'd say in
Speaker 4: hunting distances, it's nearly it's irrelevant relevant.
Speaker 3: That would be my opinion. Some people may argue that,
Speaker 3: but I don't really know anybody that would argue that.
Speaker 2: A whole lot, and I might misquote you. I know
Speaker 2: at one time you had actually told me to cite
Speaker 2: my gun into one hundred a little bit to the
Speaker 2: left to kind of account for that out to what
Speaker 2: I would consider my hunting distance is right, and it
Speaker 2: kind of just now you just said keep it on
Speaker 2: your calculator, which I don't want to discredit that at all,
Speaker 2: but for a guy like me, that's not going to
Speaker 2: shoot it an animal unless it's a follow up shot.
Speaker 2: Ever passed the thousand, Like I want to say, we
Speaker 2: were like an inch maybe inch and a quarter left
Speaker 2: at a hundred, which doesn't hurt me at one hundred,
Speaker 2: But then a lot.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't. I wouldn't.
Speaker 4: I would never say that much. I'm usually if I'm left,
Speaker 4: I'm shooting Mills now. I shot in the way forever
Speaker 4: bolt grade. I'm not going to go into it in Mills.
Speaker 4: M a discussion, but I shoot Mills now because it's
Speaker 4: in the comp world, and I do like a lot
Speaker 4: of aspects of it.
Speaker 3: For I think there's some benefits to it in the
Speaker 3: hunting world as well.
Speaker 4: But uh so, each click in a mill is roughly
Speaker 4: point three to three four three six whatever. If if
Speaker 4: I can't land on my zero if I if I'm
Speaker 4: going to be either left or right on my zero point,
Speaker 4: I'm gonna I'm gonna choose the left to little left. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it's I'm not. I'm never going to go on an
Speaker 4: inch left. That's a lot.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I wouldn't say that.
Speaker 4: But if I'm gonna choose either left or right, I'm
Speaker 4: gonna choose left and just kind of have a mental
Speaker 4: note of that when I'm calculating spin drift and we're
Speaker 4: talking in the hunting world, You're right, it's not near
Speaker 4: as important. I mean, five six inches of a thousand,
Speaker 4: that's a chunk of But you know, in your three four, five,
Speaker 4: six seven hundred yard range, you're talking a few inches,
Speaker 4: you're still in the vitals. It's going to be more
Speaker 4: of an issue judging the wind than spin drift. But
Speaker 4: if you're dead calm and like I'm trying to shoot
Speaker 4: a like a two inch steel target at six seven
Speaker 4: hundred yards, if it's dead calm, you are going to
Speaker 4: miss right.
Speaker 3: You're going to mis right. So you have to take
Speaker 3: that into account on tiny, little skinny targets.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then I actually ended up avoiding that going
Speaker 2: left at all plans, which has probably saved me. It
Speaker 2: sounds like, because that would have been too much, I
Speaker 2: just went back to zero and then like, you have
Speaker 2: my spin drift calculator on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's the smartest.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, back in the day, I mean, when I started,
Speaker 3: I'm kind of getting old now, I guess, But there
Speaker 3: wasn't spin drifting calculators.
Speaker 4: There's everybody just new, like all these bolts kind of
Speaker 4: go right, so I'm going to zero a little left,
Speaker 4: I mean, and then you just kind of have that
Speaker 4: mental note. So it's progressing, like you get the new
Speaker 4: like the Kestrel fifty seven hundred with appliaballistics, like they've
Speaker 4: got cross wind jump and spin drip, you got every.
Speaker 3: Calculation at Coriolis, they got everything in there.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's a you know, and those apps are
Speaker 4: on on your.
Speaker 1: Phone as well and different things like that.
Speaker 2: So okay, well, well that was that's going to kind
Speaker 2: of wrap it up for the listener questions. Once again,
Speaker 2: you have questions for us here at Cutting the Distance,
Speaker 2: please email them to us at CTD at Phelpsgamecalls dot
Speaker 2: com or send us a message and we'll do our
Speaker 2: best to Again. So now we're gonna kind of jump
Speaker 2: into my discussion, you know, on on the guns and
Speaker 2: the equipment. But before we jump into those conversations about
Speaker 2: the guns and components, which everybody loves to talk about,
Speaker 2: right because you can control that with money, but you can't.
Speaker 2: But let's talk about what, in my opinion, really matters
Speaker 2: and we'll see if you agree is the things that
Speaker 2: you can't buy with money, you know, whether it's reading
Speaker 2: the wind, you know, the art of it, a bunch
Speaker 2: of trigger time, you know, hundreds of thousands rounds. Like
Speaker 2: what defines a good long range hunter versus a guy
Speaker 2: that goes out and buys a ten thousand dollars rifle
Speaker 2: That that equipment's no good if you don't have this
Speaker 2: other stuff? So what what do people really need to
Speaker 2: know in order to start pulling the trigger at long
Speaker 2: ranges or be effective when they do.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I obviously the list is super long.
Speaker 4: I think I think you need to be interested in it.
Speaker 4: It's got to be kind, it's got to be somewhat
Speaker 4: of a hobby. I think you could make the argument.
Speaker 4: And we and I do do this. We train people
Speaker 4: and stuff. We take guys out that have more money
Speaker 4: than time, you know, some of these some of these
Speaker 4: bigger some of these guys that go on pretty big hunts,
Speaker 4: or they're business guys that make a pretty good income,
Speaker 4: so they don't have a lot of time to go
Speaker 4: shoot on the weekends and they're not going to travel
Speaker 4: around to comps. They're times more valuable than that. So
Speaker 4: it's not there it's not their deal.
Speaker 3: So you can make the argument that.
Speaker 4: In that generally what was what was rapid shooting three
Speaker 4: hundred yards and end type of a thing four hundred
Speaker 4: was a long shot. You could make the argument that
Speaker 4: three to six hundred yards with a good set up
Speaker 4: gun and limited knowledge is nearly automatic. And so I
Speaker 4: talk with a lot of guys as like, man, I'd
Speaker 4: really like your limit to be in that six six
Speaker 4: fifty range, unless the wind is howling and maybe less.
Speaker 4: I think when you get as that five six hundred
Speaker 4: yard range, you really you need to It's got to
Speaker 4: be a hobby.
Speaker 3: You got to be interested. You got to shoot.
Speaker 4: You can't go out and shoot four or five rounds
Speaker 4: a year. Your form, your follow through, your trigger pull,
Speaker 4: everything is.
Speaker 3: Not is not going to be adequate to do in
Speaker 3: my opinion.
Speaker 4: To be ethical, you know, to make a seven hundred
Speaker 4: yard shot, even have the wherewithal to think about, Okay,
Speaker 4: the thermals are coming down this hill a little bit
Speaker 4: left to right. I'm going to you know, just all
Speaker 4: the basics to stay calm in a situation. I see
Speaker 4: guys get so keyed up when they get in and
Speaker 4: they're getting ready to take a shot that all the
Speaker 4: thought process of the small things go away. And I
Speaker 4: think you can get that by shooting more. You go up,
Speaker 4: You go up in a clear cut and shoot. I
Speaker 4: tell guys to go up, take five rounds or ten
Speaker 4: rounds and go shoot in a clearcut, shoot some rocks
Speaker 4: at you know, five hundred two thousand yards and.
Speaker 3: Don't just shoot shoot shoot, Oh I hit it. See
Speaker 3: if you can hit.
Speaker 4: On a first round, or see if you can get real,
Speaker 4: real close, because that's all that matters. If you hit
Speaker 4: on your fifth round, it's relevant. Like the guys that
Speaker 4: shoot new world record at forty two hundred yards and
Speaker 4: you shot seventeen rounds. To me, it's it's I guess
Speaker 4: the equipment's interesting to get a you know whatever. I
Speaker 4: don't want to it seems dumb to me. Yeah, and
Speaker 4: I don't have close first round impacts.
Speaker 2: I don't want to throw the L word around on that.
Speaker 2: You know, like you said one shot finally hit at seventeen,
Speaker 2: but like I don't want to say, and this is gonna.
Speaker 2: I don't know if we have any extra you know,
Speaker 2: extreme long range people here, but like at some point
Speaker 2: I already hit it one out of seventeen. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: still a feat and you still accomplish something. But was
Speaker 2: there a little bit of luck involved finally that you
Speaker 2: did hit at the last sixteen you know, And so
Speaker 2: I just like.
Speaker 3: You, Yeah, as a disclaimer, uh, there are they're doing
Speaker 3: the world records are now they're doing like three consecutive
Speaker 3: shots Cold War plus two at twenty five hundred and
Speaker 3: thirty two. Like that's impressive. Like I'm not going to
Speaker 3: discredit that, we you know, so anyway, disclaimer, Yeah, the
Speaker 3: whole world record thing is to me is stupid, but whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then like growing up around here what we
Speaker 2: considered long range growing up, you know, we have a
Speaker 2: pretty good range here where I grew up. You know
Speaker 2: a lot of guys that were bench tress shooters here
Speaker 2: at the at the PO range.
Speaker 1: They would always do.
Speaker 2: They would shoot at a at a target maybe a
Speaker 2: hundred yards off the deer or the elk that they
Speaker 2: wanted to shoot in a clear cut, get the wind right,
Speaker 2: and then they would bring their gun back over, which
Speaker 2: just like you said, like you want to make that
Speaker 2: first shot kill. But maybe I don't want to bring
Speaker 2: up ethical or moral either, because if they're shooting seven
Speaker 2: they know what they're drift is based on this spot shot,
Speaker 2: and then a lot of times those deer elk wouldn't
Speaker 2: even get bothered by it, you know, with the muzzle
Speaker 2: break or a can or whatever they may have. And
Speaker 2: so that's kind of how we grew up. That's what
Speaker 2: I thought long range shooting was. And then as I
Speaker 2: got into it, I'm like, no, I want to make
Speaker 2: the right corrections up front, and then I'll take my
Speaker 2: shot at the animal and then have a spotter and
Speaker 2: then make a correction if I need to.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I go.
Speaker 4: It's that's not a bad as funny as that may
Speaker 4: sound to some people, that's not If you're shooting a
Speaker 4: long range and you can't cut the distance and you
Speaker 4: trust your deer and stuff, it's not bad idea to
Speaker 4: take a shot like that. If you can swing over,
Speaker 4: you've got a rock face or something, you can shoot
Speaker 4: one hundred two hundred yards of left right, that's I
Speaker 4: don't want to discredit that at all. If you've got
Speaker 4: something funky, you're like, hey, I'm going to take a
Speaker 4: test shot, all right, you win calls on or it's off.
Speaker 4: My correction to kill the animal like that is a decent,
Speaker 4: a decent idea to keep in your head if the
Speaker 4: conditions are real.
Speaker 1: Sporty yeap, yep.
Speaker 3: That's how we know what you're saying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's an art to it where you want
Speaker 2: to like you don't want to. It's almost like you're
Speaker 2: using a cheat code like on an old video game, right,
Speaker 2: Like I don't want I don't want that information. I
Speaker 2: just want to try to do. But I also feel
Speaker 2: we owe it to the animals that if if there's
Speaker 2: any doubt in your mind, you know that this this
Speaker 2: might not work out how you think it will, then
Speaker 2: then that might be a good option, is to you know,
Speaker 2: and you had mentioned and maybe you've changed, but like
Speaker 2: on a windy shoot or even a competition, you maybe
Speaker 2: not waste one, but you may test to see what
Speaker 2: the wind is so you can clear the stage after
Speaker 2: that first shot. Is that I thought i'd heard you
Speaker 2: once like you may you used to do that, Maybe
Speaker 2: that you would know I maybe misunderstanding.
Speaker 5: So the only the only time any of the top
Speaker 5: guys will do anything is if and this is rare, I.
Speaker 3: Can I don't.
Speaker 4: I might have done it once ever, but I'm always
Speaker 4: trying to hit the target. The idea is to hit
Speaker 4: the target, read where you hit the target, move your
Speaker 4: impact of the center so you can stay in there
Speaker 4: as the wind changes. But every once in a while
Speaker 4: there's a couple stages I wish I would have done this.
Speaker 4: You'll get maybe a skyline target at eight hundred nine
Speaker 4: hundred yards where if you miss, you see nothing, nothing,
Speaker 4: and so you'll see guys go up there. They think
Speaker 4: they've got it. Boom miss, boom miss. Now there are
Speaker 4: three four misses deep. Where so sometimes on a stage
Speaker 4: like that, you could put one in the dirt, like
Speaker 4: at the base of the t post and then go
Speaker 4: to the target, so you're dropping one shot instead of two,
Speaker 4: three or four. So on a skyline target, generally targets
Speaker 4: were usually somewhere where you can either see trace or
Speaker 4: you can you see bullet trays only left or right,
Speaker 4: or you can see where the bullet actually lands. But
Speaker 4: it's it's a pretty rare it's a pretty rare currence
Speaker 4: when you would burn one in the dirt, but you
Speaker 4: could there's been I.
Speaker 3: Think I've done it once.
Speaker 1: I gotcha.
Speaker 2: Yeah, misunderstanding there, but yeah, that makes sense. Just you know,
Speaker 2: try to spot your shot on the target and then
Speaker 2: make your adjustments if you you know, micro adjustments at
Speaker 2: that point to stay on or be center. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: that makes a lot of sense. So let's get into
Speaker 2: the equipment because it's it's what everybody wants to talk about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so like.
Speaker 2: Gun selection, where for me, I made the decision to
Speaker 2: hunt with multiple guns. So I've got a big long
Speaker 2: range gun that I don't like to pack around. I
Speaker 2: went with a kind of a do it all mountain
Speaker 2: rifle and seven short action ultramag and then just recently
Speaker 2: got a six and a half PRC. As it seems
Speaker 2: like some of these you know, So so that's kind
Speaker 2: of my my. I either I have a three thirty
Speaker 2: eight edge, I've got the seventh PSALM, or I've got
Speaker 2: the six and a half pr C. Now, when people
Speaker 2: are going in, you know, some random person going in,
Speaker 2: they're gonna gonna get a long range gun built. What
Speaker 2: factors do you think way into that gun? And then
Speaker 2: how do you go on about like starting with the
Speaker 2: caliber and then going from there.
Speaker 4: So I've always been, uh, component first, I usually picked
Speaker 4: my bullet and build the gun around that.
Speaker 3: And I've been a big burger bullet fan for a
Speaker 3: long long time.
Speaker 4: I've recently actually shot some solids. I'm life and we'll
Speaker 4: see playing with some different things. But been a Burger
Speaker 4: bullet fan for a long long time. So I'm the
Speaker 4: same as you. I have a six five PRC. I
Speaker 4: like a thirty cow and a Big three thirty eight.
Speaker 4: I haven't shot by Big three thirty eight years as
Speaker 4: much as I used to. Mostly I'm six five and thirty.
Speaker 4: But I kind of like the idea of, you know,
Speaker 4: a few different golf clubs in your bag, so for
Speaker 4: different different hunts, different weights.
Speaker 3: Like, so I'm going to pick my bullet.
Speaker 4: If I want to shoot a two fifteen hybrid Burger,
Speaker 4: I'm going to kind of see it's a thirty cow.
Speaker 4: I'm going to see, do I what do I want
Speaker 4: to shoot? Well, I want to shoot good brass. Generally
Speaker 4: that's been Lapua the last handful of years. Now we
Speaker 4: have a DG, we've got Peterson, we've got Alpha, We've
Speaker 4: got some pretty good brass selections that aren't your typical
Speaker 4: Norman was consistent, but it was soft.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: Then you've got all your hornerity and federal stuff that's
Speaker 4: not not to the quality of some of the premium
Speaker 4: brass brands, So I'm gonna pick my brass.
Speaker 3: So I'm going to go.
Speaker 4: Lately, it's been Lapua makes three hundred Norma. Three hundred
Speaker 4: Norma has been really easy for me. It's about my shots.
Speaker 4: Good speeds are decent. I'm not a speed demon like
Speaker 4: a lot of guys. Gosh, a lot of guys are
Speaker 4: into horsepower. They're into fast cars. I get it, it's fun.
Speaker 4: But I am a slow and steady wins the race
Speaker 4: in the gun world, and it took a lot of
Speaker 4: shooting to get to that.
Speaker 3: And every guy that gets into.
Speaker 4: Camp shooting doesn't understand it until you shoot a while
Speaker 4: and you realize that the faster, crazier guns tend to
Speaker 4: be a little bit more finicky. So if I can
Speaker 4: run a two point fifteen at twenty nine to fifty
Speaker 4: to three thousand, thirty twenty, like, I don't, really, I
Speaker 4: don't want to run at thirty one fifty if it shoots,
Speaker 4: I mean you can. I'm not saying don't, But man,
Speaker 4: the consistency that I get out of twenty nine to
Speaker 4: fifty three.
Speaker 3: Thousand, it's just day in and day out.
Speaker 4: It's not finicky, And so I use That's how I
Speaker 4: picked my gun, So then I picked my barrel.
Speaker 3: Twist around that.
Speaker 4: If I want to have a midweight gun, I like
Speaker 4: thirty cows and at ten to eleven pound range, just
Speaker 4: because I want to spot my shots. Like I talked
Speaker 4: about earlier, a good muzzle break six five PRC. I
Speaker 4: like the one fifty six Burger a lot, And then
Speaker 4: you know, eighty g makes good brass. Lapooa makes brass
Speaker 4: for it. And I'm going to run that gun and
Speaker 4: probably between an eight to ten pound gun, probably with
Speaker 4: a bipod with everything on it, and I run a
Speaker 4: big scope. I don't not going to skimp on scope.
Speaker 4: That's the last thing I'm going to skimp on. And
Speaker 4: so those are kind of my weights in that eight
Speaker 4: to ten pounds. I'm a six five. Ten to twelve
Speaker 4: is a thirty and then twelve or above twelve to
Speaker 4: sixteen is a three thirty eight something big. So I
Speaker 4: think a lot of guys are moving to that kind
Speaker 4: of thing. It works really well. I've shot a lot
Speaker 4: of stuff in my six five I probably and like
Speaker 4: I've shot a couple of moose with it, and some bears,
Speaker 4: some bigger bears, like just because I'm so confident. I
Speaker 4: shoot it so fast and you can see your shots
Speaker 4: just so stick and good.
Speaker 3: Good, just as a kid.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And so at the point, at the point you're selecting
Speaker 2: your round and your caliber, are you already you've already
Speaker 2: decided whether you want to reload or whether you want
Speaker 2: to shoot box ammo? Right, you you have to make
Speaker 2: that decision reloading.
Speaker 3: I'm reloading.
Speaker 4: And just just because I mean I'm saying I got
Speaker 4: I reload a lot, I mean I've reloaded. I don't
Speaker 4: even want to figure how many rounds I've reloaded. So
Speaker 4: I've got a bigger room full of a billion presses
Speaker 4: and just anyway.
Speaker 3: I do all that. So yes, in it's been awesome
Speaker 3: the last few years.
Speaker 4: And I think the reason the six by PRC, the
Speaker 4: seven PRC, the three hundred PRC has done well is
Speaker 4: because Hornerty is doing a pretty good job.
Speaker 3: We've we've shot up set up a bunch.
Speaker 4: Of guns with guys like, hey, I want you to
Speaker 4: factor amazal, so we'll get a few different lots of
Speaker 4: six by PRC or seven PRC and they shoot pretty good.
Speaker 4: So that's a good thing to bring up. I don't
Speaker 4: even it doesn't really enter my head because I.
Speaker 3: Just know I'm going to reload.
Speaker 4: But yeah, if you're gonna reload, or if you're if
Speaker 4: you're gonna buy factory, I would probably lean towards those
Speaker 4: rounds right now because Hornet is doing a pretty good job,
Speaker 4: pretty affordable, pretty good bullet choice, high BC longer range bullets, and.
Speaker 3: They've been good. I mean six five PRC has been
Speaker 3: been real accurate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, that's that's kind of like I say,
Speaker 2: you know, and then you also, I mean we've had
Speaker 2: some discussions about three hundred PRC Ver seven and what
Speaker 2: your target animal or like what the gun is primarily
Speaker 2: going to be used for, So if you know, for
Speaker 2: an elk guy or or a moose or elk guy
Speaker 2: primarily versus if you're just gonna be a meal deer hunter, Like,
Speaker 2: how do you like, is there an energy ideas or
Speaker 2: just like your experience on on terminal performance on game, Like,
Speaker 2: how do you decide? Like, all right, I want I
Speaker 2: want to be able to shoot this gun out to
Speaker 2: eight hundred for elk or I want to be able
Speaker 2: to shoot this gun out to six hundred for deer.
Speaker 2: Like how does that weigh in on your final, you know,
Speaker 2: and maybe you don't think of that as much as
Speaker 2: maybe the guy that's wanting to buy, you know, a
Speaker 2: different guy wanting to buy a gun. Shit, think about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So there's one thousand pounds of energy on impact.
Speaker 4: There's all kinds of different theories out there.
Speaker 3: I am a big fan of less so now, but
Speaker 3: I think overkill is always better. Some of them. My
Speaker 3: stuff is antidotal. I don't want to talk bad about
Speaker 3: seven mills, but I back in the day, I had
Speaker 3: a to eighty actlete and I won't say what bullet.
Speaker 3: It wasn't a burger, but I was using some bullets
Speaker 3: and had some real bad experience on how it's an
Speaker 3: accurate round.
Speaker 4: Seven mills are awesome. I mean, there's there's a lot
Speaker 4: of good seven mills out there. I just had We
Speaker 4: had three different rosies, no two rosies in one rocky
Speaker 4: that we shot with that gun in one year, and
Speaker 4: it was really really bad performance.
Speaker 3: So that's pretty anecdotal. There's a lot of different bullets.
Speaker 3: Some of the bullet placement was most of those all
Speaker 3: bullet placement was good.
Speaker 4: It should have been adequate, you could say, not perfect.
Speaker 4: It wasn't a double one heart shot, but it was
Speaker 4: in the vitals.
Speaker 3: It broke ball and so since then, like I shied
Speaker 3: away from it.
Speaker 4: So I if I'm going to go elkermose, I'm gonna
Speaker 4: default to the thirty almost always. I've had really good
Speaker 4: luck with the two fifteen, a two thirty Burger, and
Speaker 4: even the two forty five. You know, the two twelve ELDX. Like,
Speaker 4: there's a lot of bullets that guys have had really
Speaker 4: good luck with. So I want a little bit more impact.
Speaker 4: That being said, I shot at Shyris this year with
Speaker 4: the six five PRC dropped it. It was quick, it
Speaker 4: was a three yard shot and it dropped it fast.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I think more energy is better.
Speaker 3: I like a bigger hole. I think it's not just energy.
Speaker 4: I feel like then three thirty eights and thirty seem
Speaker 4: like they kill really good. And I don't maybe it's subjective,
Speaker 4: but it seems like diameter and a lot of guys
Speaker 4: I talked to the shoot a lot of Elk always
Speaker 4: seemed to like thirties more than sevens, So personal preference,
Speaker 4: but I like, I like thirties.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then like my three thirty eight, and I
Speaker 2: don't want to get into the like the again nerd
Speaker 2: out on it really like those big three hundred grain
Speaker 2: pills and like just a sexual just a sexual density
Speaker 2: of those they don't And it's my family growing up, like, oh,
Speaker 2: you're gonna have no meat left. And I'm like, I've
Speaker 2: killed elk with two forty threes and I've I've skinned
Speaker 2: your guys out to have two seventy holes in them,
Speaker 2: Like the sexual density and the construction of those bullet,
Speaker 2: like you can eat to the hole versus your guys'
Speaker 2: little bullets that explode, like, don't give me the two
Speaker 2: forty three to two seventy doesn't waste any meat, like
Speaker 2: the sexual density the whole, Like I always get an
Speaker 2: exit out of those three hundred grain burgers because there's
Speaker 2: so much energy to go through and so that that
Speaker 2: plays into it a lot in my opinion as well.
Speaker 4: I shot coups deer with my three thirty eight three
Speaker 4: hundred gad bullets. Say it's three thirty eight in and
Speaker 4: it's a quarter out and you're done. Where I've shot
Speaker 4: them with some smaller guns and it's a little hole
Speaker 4: in and six softball out the other side.
Speaker 3: So I mean, again, hitting bone, things change you guys
Speaker 3: know that. But yeah, I mean, yeah, three thirty eighths
Speaker 3: are awesome. I just I can't spot the shot generally
Speaker 3: in the way I want to carry.
Speaker 4: On all these backpack counts we do, Like, I'm just
Speaker 4: not willing to do that right now.
Speaker 3: Wait wise, because I'm not good jat packing camera. You're
Speaker 3: all my jeered ways to stinking Yeah. I was trying
Speaker 3: to cut some ways somewhere and she seems like I
Speaker 3: go down to that six five PRC or a thirty cow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, gotcha, We've got I mean, you build your rifles.
Speaker 2: You've had lots of rifles built for you over the years.
Speaker 2: Like how important with with all the technology out there
Speaker 2: and everybody building pretty good stuff? Like how important are
Speaker 2: the triggers and barrels and betting and stocks like all
Speaker 2: these things were you know, when you go to build
Speaker 2: a gun, you pick the barrel, you pick the stock
Speaker 2: you picked, you know, and then the betting.
Speaker 1: The betting is a little.
Speaker 2: Bit of of the the art and the gun builder
Speaker 2: and making sure it's done right. But in your opinion, like,
Speaker 2: how important is that stuff when you go to build
Speaker 2: a gun or should you just go with what your
Speaker 2: builder recommends? Or what you know, if I'm coming to mountain.
Speaker 3: For yeah, you have a good builder. Trust what they say.
Speaker 3: You know, we've done everything from you know a lot
Speaker 3: of it.
Speaker 4: Like a lot of the chassis say they're dropping ready
Speaker 4: Bolton go, and I've had great luck with that.
Speaker 3: I also like betting. I've also epoxied them together like
Speaker 3: I I'll do that too. I love that.
Speaker 4: Now I know there's no variables, and so yeah, triggers
Speaker 4: are important. Use the best trigger Like I think the
Speaker 4: top triggers right now are Trigger Tech, which is what
Speaker 4: I run, and Vix and Andy's making some real good triggers.
Speaker 3: Barrels I've had.
Speaker 4: I've seen every company there is make bad barrels.
Speaker 3: And but there's the top.
Speaker 4: There's you know, you've got Benchmark, Kreeger, Bartlin Proof.
Speaker 3: There's a whole bunch of good barrel makers. I don't
Speaker 3: I'm leaving a bunch out. But if there's an if
Speaker 3: they're a name in barrels, they're generally going to be fine.
Speaker 3: And everyone has made a bad barrel. It's the way
Speaker 3: it goes. There's all there's been. I've seen every scope
Speaker 3: break there is.
Speaker 4: I've never seen a single brand not break you just
Speaker 4: want to pick stuff that's got a pretty good reputation
Speaker 4: and it's tough, and so yeah, I think all those
Speaker 4: components play together. They're important to me. I think there's
Speaker 4: probably there's a lot of customer rifles out there. In
Speaker 4: my opinion, I'll bet eighty to ninety percent of them
Speaker 4: aren't being utilized. The load development's not done. People don't.
Speaker 4: Their chronos are different. They're switching lots of powder and
Speaker 4: they're not rechecking their gun or re zero and they're
Speaker 4: switching lots of bullets, lots of brass. Their barrels wearing people.
Speaker 4: Some people don't know the barrels speed up, Like a
Speaker 4: barrel's going to speed up at fifty to one hundred
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty rounds and it's going to speed up
Speaker 4: twenty fifty seventy feet a second. And they just get
Speaker 4: their load done in twenty rounds and then they go
Speaker 4: hunting a year or two later like why am I
Speaker 4: missing high or what's going on?
Speaker 3: So stuff changes.
Speaker 4: You got to check my guns all the time before
Speaker 4: every single hunt, I chrono and shoot it.
Speaker 3: I shoot at least to six hundred. But stuff changes.
Speaker 4: But yeah, get the best components you can get, but
Speaker 4: the setup. There's a lot of good guns out there
Speaker 4: that aren't being utilized correctly. So that comes from guys
Speaker 4: geeking out on it, being a hobby, learning and getting
Speaker 4: their guns set up correctly.
Speaker 1: Gotcha.
Speaker 2: Now, now we'll go into the optics, and we talked
Speaker 2: about all the gun components. Now maybe just as important,
Speaker 2: if not more important, or what you're gonna you know,
Speaker 2: glue to the top of the gun or stick to
Speaker 2: the top of the gun, you know, And yeah, so
Speaker 2: what's what's your opinion how do you approach optics? You know,
Speaker 2: you're mounting, like, is there the best way to mount
Speaker 2: or there multiple ways? And then and then ultimately what
Speaker 2: are you looking for in an optic on top of
Speaker 2: your gun?
Speaker 4: Yeah, So the whole laughing of rings and stuff, in
Speaker 4: my opinion, shouldn't be necessary. I've never done it. If
Speaker 4: you're using a good if you're using a good action
Speaker 4: with a straight rail and good rings, they better be straight.
Speaker 3: So I've never laughed any rings. I've never had any
Speaker 3: problems with the scope.
Speaker 4: So I don't think that you can ignore some of
Speaker 4: those things that used to be a lot more commonplace
Speaker 4: when guys laughed rings, when receivers were crooked and rails
Speaker 4: were out of spec and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: So I think that element is mostly gone.
Speaker 4: So I just I use good rings. I Nightforce makes
Speaker 4: great rings. I like the Loophole Mark four rings, Hocket.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of good rings out there, guys, So
Speaker 4: use use good rings. Don't skip on that. Don't make
Speaker 4: sure you're if you're I love actions with intego rails,
Speaker 4: you know, machined into the action. It's your If they're not.
Speaker 4: Take those screws out, clean them with alcohol. Use lock tight.
Speaker 4: You do not want your rail coming loose. I can't
Speaker 4: tell you how many guys, Johan, I'm in the jam.
Speaker 4: Can you come check my gun out before season? I
Speaker 4: got a hunt next week? And so they run over
Speaker 4: the house.
Speaker 3: We'll go up.
Speaker 4: I was like, Eh, everything good, Yeah, everything's tight. Everything's tight.
Speaker 4: Like okay, we go up there and shoot four rounds.
Speaker 4: It's all over the place, and I was like, hey,
Speaker 4: your scope's you know, pull the scope off, check the screws.
Speaker 3: They're all loose. And so that happens a lot. So
Speaker 3: just common sense, guys.
Speaker 4: You can't assume you got to pull everything apart, clean it,
Speaker 4: lock tight it and then redo it.
Speaker 3: I don't.
Speaker 4: You don't need to lock tight your cross bolts on
Speaker 4: your rings toward those most of them are fifty five
Speaker 4: pounds on the cross bolts fifty five inch pounds. And
Speaker 4: then and then all your torch specs for your caps.
Speaker 4: They're usually pretty good. You can use blue locked out
Speaker 4: in your caps if you want, but just make sure
Speaker 4: it doesn't move. The biggest hang up I see with
Speaker 4: guys getting it, and I don't know if hang ups
Speaker 4: right word, but they're hesitant to spend the money they
Speaker 4: need to on a scope. I would much rather see
Speaker 4: a guy shoot a five hundred dollars gun with a
Speaker 4: two thousand dollars scope than you know, a three or
Speaker 4: four thousand dollars rifle with a five hundred dollars scope.
Speaker 4: So all day long, I mean, I've had broken scopes.
Speaker 4: I've had scopes who don't track, and it is you're
Speaker 4: not going to hit what you You're not going to
Speaker 4: hit anything, You're not going to be consistent, you're not
Speaker 4: gonna really figure out your drops.
Speaker 3: Nothing's going to make sense. So spend the money on
Speaker 3: a good.
Speaker 4: Scope, I would say, if I would say at least
Speaker 4: it's at least fifteen hundred bucks and scopes go up
Speaker 4: to forty five hundred bucks or more.
Speaker 3: I mean some of the CCOs and the tangents. I
Speaker 3: don't know how much those are now, but they're a lot.
Speaker 4: But if you're in that, you know that that loophole.
Speaker 4: Mark five range, Night four cent say night Force attacker.
Speaker 4: I know, guys, some of the guys are lacking the trigger.
Speaker 3: CA on the ten mile.
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of there's a lot of
Speaker 4: good scopes out there, but spend the money on a scope.
Speaker 3: Yeah, don't camp on a scope, don't buy.
Speaker 4: I don't well, I don't want to throw anyone into
Speaker 4: the bus, but there's some scopes out there that you
Speaker 4: need to spend more money on if you can. I
Speaker 4: understand there's budgets and there's stuff, but if you can
Speaker 4: afford a you know, if you can afford a big
Speaker 4: truck payment, buy a nice scoe.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And uh, with that said, I think we both we
Speaker 2: both hunt with the same rifle, right, You're you're a
Speaker 2: Mark five guy on your hunting rifles and they are
Speaker 2: are they on your competition guns as well?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: And then I've got Mark five's on to my seven
Speaker 2: Palm and my three thirty eight edge and then I, uh,
Speaker 2: I shoot the VX six four to twenty four on
Speaker 2: my my six and a half PRC.
Speaker 1: Okay, so I did. I did switch shot those enough
Speaker 1: if I.
Speaker 4: Get questions about those, the VX five and six hds
Speaker 4: and I just have a mess with them enough.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've heard.
Speaker 4: I've heard some decent things about my other light. I
Speaker 4: just I'm so reliant on im, so I just want
Speaker 4: the most durable scope.
Speaker 3: I was. I had a hard time. I think I've
Speaker 3: said this before, like I had shot Loophold.
Speaker 4: Years and years ago, and I had switched the Night
Speaker 4: Force just because they were tanks and it was the
Speaker 4: old Loophold Mark four and No zero stopped.
Speaker 3: This is a long time ago.
Speaker 4: But and then you know, I was talking with Reza
Speaker 4: over at Loophol then she wanted me to shoot for them.
Speaker 3: They said, you know, the Mark five's coming out, and
Speaker 3: I was pretty hesitant because.
Speaker 4: I didn't love the Mark four, to be honest, And
Speaker 4: so I've gained a lot of trust in the markive
Speaker 4: over the years. I beat that first one up, like
Speaker 4: tried to break it. Just I dented it. I've dented
Speaker 4: the objective. I hit the I beat the crap out
Speaker 4: of it, and it held up, and they've held up
Speaker 4: really good. I've had some big drops on hunts, I've
Speaker 4: had big drops on competitions, and I haven't had any
Speaker 4: issues with them.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I've grown to trust them a lot.
Speaker 2: I'm a nerd, so I'm always doing research. And that
Speaker 2: one thing the PRS does that it always shows you,
Speaker 2: like what go were the top one hundred shooters using
Speaker 2: what triggers, what barrels and and so I went back
Speaker 2: I think it was like twenty eighteen, and you go
Speaker 2: back and it's like us off picks and and I
Speaker 2: don't know if you get all the credit for this
Speaker 2: or if it's a group of you guys, But you
Speaker 2: go back to like eighteen nineteen before the Mark five
Speaker 2: was released, and you're like, oh, loop Hold has like
Speaker 2: two shooters.
Speaker 1: Yeah, two shooters, and they might do in the fifty
Speaker 1: to one hundred.
Speaker 4: No, those two shooters were industry partners that got a
Speaker 4: free invite to the finale.
Speaker 3: That's who those people got you. They were running the
Speaker 3: March the Mark eights back in the day.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and nobody was running them. It was it was
Speaker 4: And now it's it's crazy.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I pulled it up the other day.
Speaker 2: I think it was, well, it was December one, I
Speaker 2: remember because I was talking to Dirk and I pulled
Speaker 2: it up. I said, what's everybody in twenty three used?
Speaker 2: And then you go there and it's like seventy percent
Speaker 2: of the shooters are now using the Mark five, which
Speaker 2: it's it's kind of cool to see that change. So,
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the top shooters in the world
Speaker 2: are now trusting that that that Mark five is going
Speaker 2: to do what it's supposed to do and what you've
Speaker 2: proven it can do. So that's pretty cool. When you
Speaker 2: guys were lying on that to return to zero perfectly
Speaker 2: and that every you know that every click is as
Speaker 2: close to one as you can get. It's probably never
Speaker 2: going to be one point zero zero, you know, but
Speaker 2: it could be, but.
Speaker 1: It could be one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, go ahead, sorry, yeah, I mean it's it's it's
Speaker 2: splitting hairs, but you could be point nine ninety ninety seven,
Speaker 2: which is all you know. And so I mean that
Speaker 2: that things is dialed, as you know. I walked mine
Speaker 2: around twenty m a at one hundred just to make
Speaker 2: sure it shoots the square and comes back to zero
Speaker 2: and the thing's been super repeatable and never off track.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do the same thing. I have a big,
Speaker 4: like fourteen foot tall board I tracked test. I put
Speaker 4: scopes on this big fifty pounds steel thing with a pickrail,
Speaker 4: and I've tracked tested a ton of scopes and I've
Speaker 4: had them.
Speaker 3: I've had them all. We God, I had.
Speaker 4: Early prototype one that was a little bit off, but
Speaker 4: that wasn't for sale, and every production Mark five I
Speaker 4: had this track really well.
Speaker 3: I here's things on the eritor guys like, hey, are
Speaker 3: you really do you really trust the Mark five? I
Speaker 3: read this on the internet and I'm like, man, I
Speaker 3: haven't seen it. I do trust it. That being said,
Speaker 3: Nightforce makes an awesome scope. There's other companies that make
Speaker 3: great scopes, but I do like the Mark five. I
Speaker 3: think the balance for the cost.
Speaker 4: I don't want this to be a sales pitch whatever,
Speaker 4: but the cost of the way and the performance is
Speaker 4: pretty it is pretty good. It's pretty in the locking
Speaker 4: elevation and then the I like the cap windage. Yeah,
Speaker 4: so you're going to scabbard on the horse hunt or
Speaker 4: something like it's it's it's a pretty durable scope.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was one thing that crept up and bid
Speaker 2: us on my dad's tour entered ultramag. We were in
Speaker 2: Colorado on a deer hunt and it doesn't have capped windage,
Speaker 2: and somewhere along the way it got off and he
Speaker 2: missed a shot at a great meal deer at like
Speaker 2: three hundred not even a long range shot, but his
Speaker 2: windage has got turned so much that it put him off.
Speaker 2: And so yeah, that's another cap windage. Yeah yeah, and
Speaker 2: then I'm pretty excited. Maybe I don't want to sound
Speaker 2: sound two sales pitchy, but I know the day that
Speaker 2: this podcast launches, Loophole's kind of following up their Mark
Speaker 2: five with a new Mark four HD, which will be
Speaker 2: kind of in that that same realm prices. I'm not
Speaker 2: going to even get into the prices I don't know
Speaker 2: per model, but like really really attractive for you might
Speaker 2: be able to change your your idea that you need
Speaker 2: to spend X on a scope because it sounds like
Speaker 2: we might get an option. Yeah that's you know, we
Speaker 2: have to do some more testing, but uh yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you don't know a ton of what I
Speaker 4: can you know, talk about, but it's gonna be you
Speaker 4: guys will see it's the Mark four. It looks very
Speaker 4: very similar to a Mark five, a little different tube size.
Speaker 4: I think we talked about they're going to a thirty
Speaker 4: four on them instead of a thirty five on a
Speaker 4: bunch of them, but it's gonna be cheaper. They're taking
Speaker 4: a lot of the tech out of the Mark five.
Speaker 4: It's gonna it's gonna From what I've seen when i'm
Speaker 4: the ones i've played with, it's pretty impressive. And again
Speaker 4: I'm not one to say I never recommend something until
Speaker 4: I use it a lot. But from what I've seen
Speaker 4: so far, it looks pretty. It looks pretty impressive, So
Speaker 4: price points are going to be really good. It's it's
Speaker 4: not a replacement for a Mark five. It's gonna be
Speaker 4: uh it's kind of the tier below. And I think,
Speaker 4: you know, we'll see improvements to the Mark five is
Speaker 4: probably due for a revamp at some point, so I
Speaker 4: think it'll be the Mark four then, you know, which
Speaker 4: keep getting progressing. So it's it's cool. It's it looks
Speaker 4: when you guys see it, you'll laugh. It looks they
Speaker 4: did a little tiny subtle changes to the turrets, but
Speaker 4: it looks like a Mark five. It's it's it's a
Speaker 4: sexy little scope.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited it changed it.
Speaker 3: It set of like a five twenty five.
Speaker 4: It's a six twenty four type of brain, so they
Speaker 4: changed out a little bit to a four x.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's it's good, it's cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're excited about that. Now let's go in the
Speaker 2: issues you might So you've you've got your gun built. Now,
Speaker 2: we've got our optics mounted, We're we're all dialed in there.
Speaker 2: Like what issues could pop up if the gun builders did,
Speaker 2: like what have you found?
Speaker 1: The first thing? Everything? Everything, but like what are I
Speaker 1: guess what's the most probable issue? And like where should
Speaker 1: you start?
Speaker 4: I've I've seen so many weird things that I can't
Speaker 4: even I've had I've had good brass from companies that
Speaker 4: instead of testing and measuring everything, I just trust but
Speaker 4: open it up as it checked the necks and rock
Speaker 4: and roll and have issues with internal volumes that throw
Speaker 4: weird stuff off.
Speaker 3: One of the weirdest ones lately is I.
Speaker 4: Was fighting and fighting and fighting the carbon barrel a
Speaker 4: carbon barrel gun, and it was like I'd get some
Speaker 4: good groups and some bad groups. It just wasn't as consistent,
Speaker 4: consistent as I would like it to be. And I
Speaker 4: fought and fought and fought. I took it out, I checked,
Speaker 4: just redid it. I can't remember change the batting, I
Speaker 4: changed stocks, I changed scopes, I changed everything.
Speaker 3: I went, changed bullets, I changed powders, and I could
Speaker 3: not figure it out.
Speaker 4: The last thing I did was I pulled the muzzle
Speaker 4: brake off to just triple check that it was clean.
Speaker 4: There was, it wasn't carbon dup, and it wasn't, and
Speaker 4: I was like, screw, I'm going to put on a
Speaker 4: different brake. So I had a really lightweight, a titanium
Speaker 4: brake that was really light, and I just threw on
Speaker 4: one of my comp brakes and so I went from
Speaker 4: like a one ounce or a sub one ounce break
Speaker 4: to like an eight ounce break. I think it was
Speaker 4: just because I was I was gonna throw the gun away,
Speaker 4: and I put that out of the brake on and
Speaker 4: the gun just shot like I don't know.
Speaker 3: I don't want to say quarter age because that's whatever.
Speaker 4: But I had three eighths consistently, and I went from
Speaker 4: I'm talking, I went from an inch and a half
Speaker 4: to just sub half inch, just like just switching the
Speaker 4: brake and it stacked at a one hundred and I
Speaker 4: was like, okay, this is I'm running the heavy break
Speaker 4: on this gun. And it just whatever that barrel, whatever
Speaker 4: the deal was with the HARMONICX and that barrel, the
Speaker 4: weight off the end of it just settled it down.
Speaker 4: And that's a lot of guys. The weight of a
Speaker 4: suppress or a way of a break will change things.
Speaker 4: So that's just one example of things I've seen. I've
Speaker 4: seen so many different things, but I can't really say it,
Speaker 4: you know, pick one, but generally, if you're going to
Speaker 4: work on a gun, I do try I shot Hodge
Speaker 4: and powders a lot. I like the extreme lines. I like,
Speaker 4: you know, forty three fifty, H one thousand, I like
Speaker 4: a lot. Retumble went away for a long time. I
Speaker 4: haven't shot Retumble in years, and I didn't like it
Speaker 4: as much. I did get some weird pressure spice with
Speaker 4: a tumble back in the day that I didn't with
Speaker 4: H one.
Speaker 3: Thousand, forty eight thirty one varget. All those powders are great.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of good powder, So go with trusted components,
Speaker 4: good brass, good bullets. Go try to eliminate as many
Speaker 4: variables as you can so you don't question things if
Speaker 4: there's an issue. But there's all there's always.
Speaker 3: Stuff going on.
Speaker 4: Like I said, bullets barrow speeding up, lots lots of
Speaker 4: powder change, and I've seen a lot of speed differences
Speaker 4: in powders the last handful of years since COVID. I
Speaker 4: don't know if everyone's manufacturing is stress and everything, And
Speaker 4: I feel like the lots a lot VARIANTCE was bigger
Speaker 4: than used to be. So if you guys, are you
Speaker 4: got three pounds of this and you run out and
Speaker 4: you go buy an eight pound of.
Speaker 3: This, it's the same powder.
Speaker 4: Check your speeds, pressures most likely will be different some
Speaker 4: real basic stuff, but a lot of things people overlook
Speaker 4: and even do some measurements when you switch lots on bullets.
Speaker 4: So I try to buy big lots of stuff so
Speaker 4: I don't have to do that. Like if I can
Speaker 4: buy like forty or fifty pounds at a time of powder,
Speaker 4: don't worry about that as much.
Speaker 1: YEP.
Speaker 3: I try to do that, But I need you also
Speaker 3: going through a lot.
Speaker 2: I need you to explain that to my wife why
Speaker 2: I needed thirty two pounds of eight L twenty six
Speaker 2: at the same time. Was that was to make sure
Speaker 2: that there wasn't any lot, you know, variation, and yeah.
Speaker 3: And you got to protect her when the world ends,
Speaker 3: you gotta.
Speaker 1: Have Yeah, yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2: But like you talked about good, good powders like my
Speaker 2: H one thousand, like my ees my my spread on
Speaker 2: three thirty eight edge is like single digits on the
Speaker 2: edge and whether it's hot or cold. Where we tried
Speaker 2: to chase a little bit more performance with the r
Speaker 2: L twenty six, But I tell you what, if I
Speaker 2: go out and shoot that gun of eighty degrees here
Speaker 2: and then go out and shoot it at thirty, I'm
Speaker 2: like this, it wasn't worth chasing the speed and and uh,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if you've messed with bit
Speaker 2: of or bit of ore seems to have like a
Speaker 2: little more of that performance edge but a lot more
Speaker 2: temp stable And so we're we're doing some switching around,
Speaker 2: even in my own loads. But yeah, that was one thing.
Speaker 2: My r L twenty six did switch lots in between
Speaker 2: like my first load versus like this new load, and
Speaker 2: I could not the gun was you know, literally dropping
Speaker 2: primers out the back, not even just like ejector marks
Speaker 2: and sticky bolts, like dropping primers when I I'm oh
Speaker 2: that primary and like when I was here, like it was,
Speaker 2: it was shooting well, and then we had to go
Speaker 2: back and like move everything on that load, like the
Speaker 2: powder changed the you know, how how deep you were
Speaker 2: seat in the bullet to get the pressures to get
Speaker 2: in the right spot, and then now the gun shoots
Speaker 2: lights out again. But one thing we didn't talk about,
Speaker 2: which we don't even have that much time, is like
Speaker 2: when you get a good rifle built, you know, and
Speaker 2: you've built it backwards from a bullet, because that's going
Speaker 2: to have to you know, getting way into the deep end,
Speaker 2: like where you're gonna chamber the gun, how far out
Speaker 2: you're gonna push that bullet and try to be you know,
Speaker 2: out of the lands and all of that.
Speaker 1: I was, I've been amazed.
Speaker 2: Like one thing that really kind of you made me
Speaker 2: like open my eyes is just how finnicky it is
Speaker 2: with tentsive grains of powder and bullet seating and the
Speaker 2: balance of that. Because you might have a gun that
Speaker 2: shoots you know, quarter moa as long as you're doing
Speaker 2: your job, but if you don't get that node just
Speaker 2: perfectly and get your bullet seated right, or get the
Speaker 2: right amount of powder and get that all to match.
Speaker 2: And you might have a gun that's shooting, you know,
Speaker 2: three quarters do one m away on the same gun
Speaker 2: that you just bump things a little bit and it
Speaker 2: just seems to dial it in. Was one thing that's like, Wow,
Speaker 2: I didn't realize it mattered that much.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I don't. Honestly, I don't know if
Speaker 3: it does.
Speaker 4: If you take a three thirty eight and you're running
Speaker 4: or whatever, If I take my NORMA and I'm running whatever,
Speaker 4: eighty five, eighty four grains, whatever happens to be if.
Speaker 3: You drop if you go to if I'm shooting eighty.
Speaker 4: Four grains and I go to eighty three point eight,
Speaker 4: so two tenths less and you go shoot a three
Speaker 4: shot group. Maybe that group looks tighter on that group,
Speaker 4: but it's not going to look tighter over over a
Speaker 4: sample of fifty. Yeah, it's just it's too small of
Speaker 4: a percentage. So what I don't think it does.
Speaker 2: What percentage do you think matters are If you start
Speaker 2: to move a half a grain of powder, does it start.
Speaker 4: To so in the bigger guns, I generally do bigger jumps,
Speaker 4: and if I'm having problems, I will shrink down.
Speaker 3: But I don't think it matters as much.
Speaker 4: I think what I've been doing more lately is is
Speaker 4: I try to stay anywhere away from pressure because they
Speaker 4: can get finicky. And like when you said about dropping
Speaker 4: primers out the bottom, you guys need to be careful
Speaker 4: when you're on really Like I live in western Oregon,
Speaker 4: you grow up western Washington. It gets really wet and
Speaker 4: water causes pressure. So this is like I disclaimer outside
Speaker 4: your question, but if you're anywhere close to pressure under
Speaker 4: good conditions and you're pouring down rain and everything's soaking wet,
Speaker 4: you're going to pressure out really hard.
Speaker 3: So you guys can do water tests.
Speaker 4: You can pour out water on your animal feed it,
Speaker 4: shoot a couple of rounds, get that chamber wet, and
Speaker 4: see if you still are pressure free. So that's just
Speaker 4: a tip that you got to be pressure safe with water.
Speaker 4: So going back to the other thing, what I do
Speaker 4: I've been doing more lately is I generally will know
Speaker 4: there's enough information or I've shot enough calibers where I
Speaker 4: know there's a speed node for different calibers. For whatever reason,
Speaker 4: like my six five prcs. Depending on barrel light, it
Speaker 4: seems like twenty nine nine thirty twenty nine forty with
Speaker 4: the one fifty six is a really really good speed
Speaker 4: accuracy wise, and so I generally what I've been doing
Speaker 4: lately it's been working pretty good, is all experimental, a
Speaker 4: little bit with powder and maybe half grain increments, some bigger.
Speaker 3: Jumps, and then I'll hit that speed. I'll just load to.
Speaker 4: Twenty nine to twenty and then I'll do seating jumps.
Speaker 4: I'll go twenty fifty eighty one twenty like, I'll do
Speaker 4: big seating depth tests and kind of make some corrections
Speaker 4: off of that. That will change your speed a little bit.
Speaker 4: The bigger the the closer end of the lands, you're
Speaker 4: two with your bullet loaded, your pressure is gonna spike
Speaker 4: real quick.
Speaker 3: And that's like back in the day, would weather be
Speaker 3: you got all that speed. They just have massive freeboard
Speaker 3: built into their guns, so they get a bigger run
Speaker 3: and start with that bullet, slam it into the lands
Speaker 3: and you can get more speed that way.
Speaker 4: You can load more powder all that stuff, So your
Speaker 4: speeds will change as you get closer and further way
Speaker 4: from the lands. But I've been doing some testing that way.
Speaker 4: It's been working pretty good, kind of tuning a load
Speaker 4: with seating depth and so. But yeah, I don't in
Speaker 4: the small guns, like when I'm shooting my dashes a lot,
Speaker 4: when you're loading thirty grains and twenty nine and a
Speaker 4: half or thirty.
Speaker 3: One grains, like, I'll do the point two point three
Speaker 3: grain increments.
Speaker 4: But but if your gun is going to change, like
Speaker 4: I don't want my gun to change if I load
Speaker 4: a tenth or two either way, I don't think it's
Speaker 4: going to. I think over a big sample side, it's
Speaker 4: not going to If you go shoot a twenty round
Speaker 4: string or a ten round group, you shoot a five
Speaker 4: shots and five shots and five shots, let your arycle whatever.
Speaker 3: I don't think your group's going to be that much different.
Speaker 4: I think they're all kind of kind of cluster into
Speaker 4: you either a half inch or a three quarter the
Speaker 4: whole quarter minute gun idea, God, that's interest territory. Everyone
Speaker 4: wants to all the gun that seems to do that.
Speaker 4: But that's when people say quarter minute. If I do
Speaker 4: my part, I just called BS.
Speaker 1: Like the time. It's just a real rare gun to
Speaker 1: do that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's just in a light magnum. I just
Speaker 4: don't the shoot ability those is difficult. If you're in
Speaker 4: a interrst gun, I get it. I'm not arguing with
Speaker 4: interrest guys. The guys that shoot the you know, the
Speaker 4: PPCs and the hundred yard interest and then different things
Speaker 4: like that, Like those guys are shooting tiny, tiny groups.
Speaker 4: But that's a different thing than we're talking about. We're
Speaker 4: talking about and we're talking about field. We're talking about
Speaker 4: positioning the field. That's not ideal. You know, if you
Speaker 4: can shoot half inch half mla all day, you're killing
Speaker 4: everything everywhere.
Speaker 3: You're not missing anything.
Speaker 4: So I mean, if you can extrapolate that all the
Speaker 4: way out, you're shooting two and a half inches of
Speaker 4: five hundred and five inches of a thousand, you're not
Speaker 4: missing anything anywhere. And so I want it's slow and steady, consistent,
Speaker 4: day in and day out. I don't want big flyers.
Speaker 4: I don't want pressure spikes. I don't want to be
Speaker 4: anywhere near my pressure limit, which if guys are shooting
Speaker 4: reloader powders have been really really accurate for me, but
Speaker 4: generally those are the guys chasing speed. They're grabbing sixteen
Speaker 4: twenty six thirty three, and even the bit powders are
Speaker 4: the same thing. The five sixty fives and the five
Speaker 4: seventies and the big magnums. Those guys are chasing speed
Speaker 4: and I'm just I'm not that guy anymore. Like I'll
Speaker 4: test them and if they shoot, great, great, but they
Speaker 4: have been more finicky. I feel like the bit powder's
Speaker 4: carbon up more than hodged in their way dirty or
Speaker 4: same as reloader.
Speaker 3: I just haven't had it as good as experience with them, gotcha?
Speaker 2: So yeah, no, you like I said there, it's obviously
Speaker 2: this podcast you've got some topics. We could go down
Speaker 2: some giant rabbit holes.
Speaker 3: We just don't.
Speaker 1: We could do it.
Speaker 2: We could do a series because there's so much to it.
Speaker 2: There's so much to it, and you know, even some
Speaker 2: info that I thought I had. You know, you've got
Speaker 2: different You know where we're we're doing these litt ladder
Speaker 2: tests that you know, point three jumps on a ninety
Speaker 2: three grain load. In my edge, you're saying didn't matter
Speaker 2: as much as we thought. It might have just been
Speaker 2: me shooting that group versus I do.
Speaker 4: There's man, I don't want to like rock the low Bow,
Speaker 4: but no, dude, if you're doing one shot ladder tests,
Speaker 4: I think if you do a bunch of them, if
Speaker 4: you do the same tests three times in a row
Speaker 4: and check those flat spot I do, there are nodes,
Speaker 4: barrels whip, there are speeds that shoot better. Like I
Speaker 4: said earlier, it seems like I've like twenty ninety with
Speaker 4: a six PC. I like they it seems like they
Speaker 4: shoot there a lot. There are different nodes, so I'm
Speaker 4: not arguing that. And in theory, the ladder's supposed to
Speaker 4: show those nodes, right, But I've also you've got extreme spreads,
Speaker 4: You've got your brass prepped.
Speaker 3: Your consistency. If you shoot that same test three four
Speaker 3: times and so it's thirty or forty rounds and overlay
Speaker 3: all that data, I'm okay with that. But when guys
Speaker 3: go out and shoot one round once and like there's
Speaker 3: a flat spot, I call bs on that, Like I've
Speaker 3: tried it, I just don't do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I.
Speaker 3: It's it's it's it's it's good info. It's good to have.
Speaker 4: I just think that the statistical relevance of it isn't
Speaker 4: near as significant as people think unless you have bigger
Speaker 4: data samples. So some of the best shooters, one of
Speaker 4: my buddy like Jake and Morgan, those guys are like,
Speaker 4: Morgan's top of the game right now.
Speaker 3: He's one of the He's a great shooter.
Speaker 4: I travel with him a lot, and he's like, he
Speaker 4: just goes and shoots ten and twenty round groups and
Speaker 4: he goes, if it's five eighths whatever, he goes, I'm
Speaker 4: gonna win a match.
Speaker 3: He goes, you're gonna you're gonna you know, so he
Speaker 3: just he doesn't even hardly do load development anymore.
Speaker 4: Sixty five creed with a one to fifty class bullet
Speaker 4: running at twenty six eighty to twenty seven hundred feet
Speaker 4: a second, it's going to shoot there, you know.
Speaker 3: If it doesn't, it's the barrel's problem. That's kind of
Speaker 3: his mentality. I geek out a little more than that, but.
Speaker 4: It's when you shoot a lot of big data sets,
Speaker 4: your little one and two tenths tweaks start to go away,
Speaker 4: and it gets frustrated. You're like, oh, wait, this is
Speaker 4: kind of meaningless because I shot one three shot group
Speaker 4: here and I shot another series show group.
Speaker 3: You know you need big data samples.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, it's great information and you know,
Speaker 2: it's like same thing on the archery side where we
Speaker 2: used to all pay per tune and now I'm to
Speaker 2: the point where, you know, depending on the bow, you
Speaker 2: get it set and I'm just going to get my
Speaker 2: broad heads and field points to match in. And I
Speaker 2: you know, we used to get paper sometimes, so there's
Speaker 2: different ways to get there where you're you're just focusing
Speaker 2: on that speed that you know from so many you know,
Speaker 2: trigger polls and chrono checks that You're like, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: get the gun there and then mess with seating and
Speaker 2: we should be good, which sounds like it worked a lot. Yeah, yeah, no, no,
Speaker 2: And that's where I don't.
Speaker 3: Want to I changed power. The guys are like, oh
Speaker 3: my gosh, you know, but you know you do tweak powder.
Speaker 4: But just if I get to know a gun a lot,
Speaker 4: like I've shot a lot of six Dashers, six five creeds,
Speaker 4: twenty five creeds, six five prcs, three d enormous, there's
Speaker 4: a lot of guns I've shot a lot, and it
Speaker 4: just seems like I started all that with you know,
Speaker 4: three tents and half grain increments and up and down
Speaker 4: and seeing depth, and it just seemed like every gun
Speaker 4: tept coming back to a general bar ballpark. And that's
Speaker 4: why I'm saying that I started with the powder thing,
Speaker 4: you know, but I haven't changed a little.
Speaker 3: Bit over the years. Some a little less time too.
Speaker 3: It's like, hey, I know it's going to get here.
Speaker 3: Let's get here as fast as we can.
Speaker 4: Do a big seating depth test and try to do
Speaker 4: bigger sample sizes. You know, I'll shoot a three shot
Speaker 4: group with magnums.
Speaker 3: I don't want to shoot a ten round screen, right,
Speaker 3: I'll do that with my camp guns and shoot like
Speaker 3: a ten round group and just see how it goes.
Speaker 4: Both magnums. I'll shoot three, let it cool, shoot three,
Speaker 4: Let it cool, shoot three. So I'll have nine shots
Speaker 4: in a group or something like that. And I wanted
Speaker 4: to stay in there. You know, I don't want big flowers.
Speaker 3: But if you're shooting half inch like, I'm pretty happy
Speaker 3: with that, especially in the light guns.
Speaker 2: Gotcha. So yeah, thanks for coming on and John. We
Speaker 2: really appreciate having your your wealth and knowledge. You you know,
Speaker 2: you shoot great. Your your knowledge is goes deep into
Speaker 2: the end of the topic of long range guns shooting
Speaker 2: really well. And I love more so that you're not
Speaker 2: just a steel puncher that you you did all this
Speaker 2: because you love to hunt and then you like to
Speaker 2: go take what you know and into.
Speaker 1: You put it in animals.
Speaker 2: So do you have any big plans for twenty four
Speaker 2: that you're putting together?
Speaker 3: Huh Yeah, I mean we're working on it. Got there's
Speaker 3: a bunch of connections.
Speaker 4: Probably gonna go back up to the territories this year,
Speaker 4: kind of finalizing that for doll sheet, maybe Terribou.
Speaker 3: On a trophy fee.
Speaker 4: Trying to finish my North American twenty nine. I was
Speaker 4: up at Kodiak was number twenty seven. In December. I
Speaker 4: went up there and killed a pretty good block tailt
Speaker 4: there and so that was number twenty seven. So I
Speaker 4: have got a polar Bear left and a Rocky Mountain
Speaker 4: bighorn and so kind of working through that, maybe polar
Speaker 4: Bear this spring. There's a lot of stuff that's not
Speaker 4: in concrete that we're working on. So yeah, there's some
Speaker 4: hunts coming up, so we'll see kind of how things
Speaker 4: work out. Some of it comes down to raffle drawings
Speaker 4: and some luck and some other things.
Speaker 3: So yeah, so we'll see. And then black I love
Speaker 3: black Tai hunt around here when time time permits. It
Speaker 3: was fun. This year was fun. They bumped the.
Speaker 4: Oregon season dates back this year to like it ran
Speaker 4: to November tenth, and so I got back from the
Speaker 4: finale and I had five days to hunt.
Speaker 3: Which was awesome. So I was running out with my
Speaker 3: rifle and passed on more big blacktails than I've ever
Speaker 3: passed looking for a giant, but didn't shoot one of.
Speaker 4: I had a blast saw some big box at two
Speaker 4: three hundred yards that you normally wouldn't see because of
Speaker 4: the dates.
Speaker 3: So that was a lot of fun. So cool, cool, Yeah,
Speaker 3: we'll see, we'll fink, we'll fit something in. And there
Speaker 3: was always hunts that come up last week.
Speaker 2: So you're going to bring that six and a FPRC
Speaker 2: up there for the polar Bear. You're going to pick
Speaker 2: up a bigger gun, you think.
Speaker 3: So maybe bring the six, Maybe bring the sixth dasher
Speaker 3: up there there. I'll probably just bring a thirty.
Speaker 4: I was assuming probably just the three hundred normal, so
Speaker 4: I was actually gonna soccer with a guy we might
Speaker 4: actually shoot with solid just a test generally up there,
Speaker 4: it's I've been up there once before for bins for
Speaker 4: my buddy Ben's hunt in November and it's generally not
Speaker 4: long it's not a really long range uh hunt. The
Speaker 4: way it lays out, it's it's interesting. It's interesting deal.
Speaker 4: So I might take solid up there as a test,
Speaker 4: so we'll.
Speaker 2: See cool cool? Well, how can how can all my
Speaker 2: listeners follow along? I know you're not you know you're
Speaker 2: You're all over the p r S and the n
Speaker 2: r L stuff and there's articles and then you know
Speaker 2: all the all the shooting support that you get. But
Speaker 2: don't seem to be huge on social but it is there.
Speaker 4: I I just on my mostly just Instagram. I so
Speaker 4: far behind, didn't post on half my stuff this year.
Speaker 4: I love hate, mostly a hate relationship with social but
Speaker 4: I do need to.
Speaker 3: I like to see other.
Speaker 4: People and stuff, so I need to post more. So
Speaker 4: I'll be posting stuff on there, but just it's just
Speaker 4: John pinch It on Instagram j O N P y
Speaker 4: n c H. And I'm blocked, so you got to search.
Speaker 3: Me to find me that.
Speaker 4: I guess I'm a whatever I posted last, I posted
Speaker 4: this picture of I was up in Alaska and that
Speaker 4: we were on a bear hunt this year, and I
Speaker 4: show a harlequin. I posted a picture of that with
Speaker 4: a like an over under and my profile is banned
Speaker 4: for nudity because of that duck picture.
Speaker 3: I was like, what anyway, So aya, that's where I'm at.
Speaker 4: But yeah, follow on post pictures of mostly hunting stuff,
Speaker 4: a little bit of calm stuff, but reach out, shoot
Speaker 4: me a message if I can help you well, generally
Speaker 4: respond on Instagram relatively quickly, but yeah, if you have
Speaker 4: any questions.
Speaker 3: More than happy to help you guys with what I can.
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, I appreciate.
Speaker 2: I appreciate chatting with you. Usually our conversations or John,
Speaker 2: I got something's not going right with this this load
Speaker 2: or this gun or so it's nice to sit down
Speaker 2: and have a chat about, you know, for sure everything
Speaker 2: shooting and not even everything like barely scratch the surface
Speaker 2: on everything shooting. You know, you could probably talk for days,
Speaker 2: but I appreciate having you. Good luck on all your
Speaker 2: hunts is here, John, and we'll stay in touch.
Speaker 3: Thanks you too, Thanks for having me all about.
Speaker 1: M m.
Speaker 5: M h
Speaker 3: M hmmmmmmm