WEBVTT - What was COINTELPRO? 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:04.320 From UFOs two ghosts and government cover ups. History is 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:08.000 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:16.480 learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Greetings everyone, 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:20.080 welcome back. My name is Max and I am Ben 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:23.680 and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. Today, 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.720 we're looking at something that's pretty dark. It's a part 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:31.360 of the American past, and it encompasses a lot of 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:36.920 different groups, um, but one in particular. Right we are 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:42.919 talking about the famous co in tell pro Ladies and gentlemen. 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:46.680 This is one of those things that was once called 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:50.879 a conspiracy theory and later emerged, surprise, surprise, to be 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:57.880 a factual conspiracy spanning decades. And what we'd like to 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:00.760 do today is talk a little bit up how this came, 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:05.640 about what it was, how it affected both the United 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:09.039 States and the world, and uh, maybe we'll end on 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:12.800 a question about what happened to it? Right, Yeah, where 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:17.920 did it go? Oh? Man? What what dark humor? We 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:21.200 already have at the beginning gallows or here? Um? All right, 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:26.760 so co intel pro uh counter intelligence on the part 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:30.840 of the FBI, the Federal Bureau of Investigation here in 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:34.880 good old us of a UM, the thing is that 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:40.399 this was an act of political repression, right, yes, and 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:43.000 it was a way to keep tabs on political groups 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:48.160 that were completely legal inside the US that the FBI, 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:52.280 headed by Jedger Hoover, believed could be a threat to 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:59.320 the country. Now what kind of threat existential? Physical? Right, 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:04.480 kind of argicles, ideological? Yeah, it varies, but the one 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.480 that we're gonna be focusing on today or the threats 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:11.160 are the physical threats that? Okay, yeah, and I think 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.639 that's fair. So a little bit of background cointelpro you're 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:19.440 probably wondering, is this another overly awkward government acronym? Uh? 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:22.640 Kind of but not really because it's it stands for 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:28.160 counterintelligence programs, So thank goodness, it's not like changing one 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:32.840 intelligent new I can't do that. But but the point 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:37.080 being here that it was an active UH surveillance and 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:42.040 repression program UH seen as vital for the national security 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.480 of the United States. And of course, national security is 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:51.400 everybody's favorite boogeyman, depending on which political generation you live in. Well, 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:54.440 so it's a boogeyman, and it's also the thing you 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:57.480 can just mention if you want to convince someone that 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:00.639 it's something is important. Yeah, I wish I could start 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:05.400 using national security just on my own personal thing for 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:08.280 some extra swag, but unfortunately I'm not a nation yet. 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.239 One day many yeah, maybe one day. But uh so, 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:17.200 the FBI, as we know, has engaged in similar acts 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:21.720 way way back in its time of inception, which is, 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:26.880 you know, uh, the early nineteen hundreds. Another example that 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.760 isn't quite cointelpro but it's a very similar operation would 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:35.000 be the FBI surveillance of suspected communists during the two 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:38.040 Red Scares of US history. That's right, there were two. 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:42.760 And yeah, yeah, I'm just I feel like maybe we 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:44.960 need to go ahead and do a whole another episode 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:50.240 on that as well. I think that deserves its own research. Um, 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:52.200 if you'd like to hear more about the Red Scare 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:55.800 one and then it's Red Scare Redo, let us know 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:57.680 and we will make a whole audio episode on that. 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:01.400 And uh I also did a guest host spot with 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:03.920 stuff you missed in history class on the Red Scare, 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:06.960 so you can tune in to hear some of that. 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:09.040 It's a deep cut, you guys. It's an oldie, but 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:14.480 a goodie. So we know that there were these different 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:17.960 methods for combating people who would challenge the status quo 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:20.919 of the nation. These could be people like communists or 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:25.000 anarchistra other political dissidents. These could also just be labor 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:30.520 movements and unions. Um So during the Truman and Roosevelt 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:33.120 years we start to see things that are more direct 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:38.400 predecessors of cointelpro around the thirties. But what we're talking about. 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:42.480 Cointelpro in its most well known form, officially began in 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:47.680 ninety six in August, and it was to stop the 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:54.000 communist communists. Man, you don't like capitalism, that everything that 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:56.560 we do is based on this one idea of the 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:59.440 set of ideas. So, uh, the kind of stuff they 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:05.279 would do, uh seems to range from mean spirited middle 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:10.520 school or pranks like anonymous phone calls you know quit, well, 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:16.120 you you know quit? You read commie yeah, two unnecessary 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:22.200 audits or unnecessarily thorough audits, government harassment and attempts to 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:26.320 infiltrate these groups and of course turn them against one another. 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:29.200 And something I never really thought about, ben is that 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:33.400 just the act of infiltrating a group one time and 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:36.200 then making it known that that group has been infiltrated 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:40.080 can create such dissension inside a group even if you 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:43.960 didn't really do use that infiltration for any means other 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:48.160 than to expose that it's been infiltrated. It just that 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:54.160 idea creates such suspicion amongst group members. Uh. It creates 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.840 uh yeah, just that idea of oh wait, now, if 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:00.480 that guy was an infiltrator or an FBI agent, then 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:03.920 oh my god, who is this person I've been speaking with? Right? 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:07.840 And it removes credibility for outside groups or outside observers 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:13.080 who might be future supporters of a group. Uh. So, well, 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:17.160 let's brackett the idea of communists as a threat to 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:19.840 the U S. I agree, It's a different show. Um, 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:23.840 we won't cover today. Let's look at the one of 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:28.440 the huge problems here, which is that shortly after um, 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:32.919 the inception of the modern co intel pro guy named Hoover, 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.760 who some of our listeners may have heard of, uh, decided, 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:40.200 you know who is also a threat to America as 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:46.760 it stands today, Uh, black leaders, black people in general, because, 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:49.800 as we can tell, Hoover at this time is a 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:54.240 fan of the racist ideology prevalent in the United States, 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:57.080 at least it seems to be from the memos that 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:00.200 have been Uh, I guess he classified in the kay 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.400 you're being very fair, Matt, I'm trying to be fair. 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.080 You are being very fair, and I'm sorry. Um, clearly 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:10.960 I am pro civil rights. No, I'm kidding, O kidding, 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:13.800 I I am joking. I am joking. But yeah, I 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:17.000 think you're being fair with the treatment of Hoover because 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.480 all we know is um the stuff left over in 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:24.560 the documents that, as far as we know, we're authored 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:28.800 by him. Right. Yeah, he was obviously afraid because again 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.040 he was head of the FBI at this time, and 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.760 he was obviously afraid of in what he called an 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:39.960 uprising um basically an overthrow of the status quo of 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:44.440 the time. Right, he pictured a revolution, yes, and after 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:51.640 in nineteen sixty three he started saying, Martin Luther King Jr. 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:58.360 Is the primary focus or the primary um, the potential 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:01.760 leader of a violent revolution or a violent revolution, which 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.440 is which is strange when you think about it, because 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:10.040 one of the huge differentiating factors between Martin Luther King 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:14.120 and other similar leaders like Malcolm X was that Martin 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:20.440 Luther King Jr. Uh clearly advocated UH non violent revolution, 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:25.000 you know, similar to Gandhi, similar to other organizations seeking 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.560 equality around the world. And in the FBI and memos, 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:32.760 it actually states that Martin Luther King Jr. Would be 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:38.120 the supreme leader of this UH of the black nationalist 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:42.760 movement if not for what they called his liberal leanings, 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:48.560 his non violence right. They specifically called it his white 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:52.520 liberals something right. I think we have a quote, and 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:56.200 while we're checking that out, let's just go ahead and say, 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.400 off the top, a little bit of a disclaimer, UH, 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:05.480 Cohen Hell pros illegal activities during this time we're conducted 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:09.440 in secret, were conducted without government oversight outside of the FBI, 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:15.599 And we're incredibly racist with this sort of veneer of 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:22.240 um concern for social social upstanding. But it's just the 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:25.520 same way that you would hear people use other euphemisms 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:30.679 in sadly enough, the modern day to disguise UH, huge 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:33.600 racist tendencies. So we are going to be talking about 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.720 some very ugly things in US history, to say the least. 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.760 So so I'm just gonna give you this is a 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:47.280 partial quote from the the memo about the the counterintelligence program, 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:51.719 and this is referring to black nationalists hate groups. This 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.719 is what they called them, Black nationalists hate groups. And 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:57.600 this is part of the goals in one of these memos, 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:01.520 and I'm just gonna read this to you, um, please 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:04.360 forgive me, like thank you for that caveat Ben. But 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:08.640 here we go. This is goal number two, to prevent 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.719 the rise of a messiah who could unify and electrify 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:15.600 the militant black nationalist movement. Malcolm X might have been 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:18.199 such a messiah. Cole and he is the martyr of 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:22.560 the movement today. Martin Luther King, Stokely Carmichael, and Elijah 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:26.000 Mohammed all aspire to this position. King could be a 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:28.800 very real contender for this position should he abandon his 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:33.360 supposed obedience to white liberal doctrine. And then in uh, 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:38.720 and then it just says non violence, uh in quotation marks. 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:42.240 But yeah, it's it's uh. It's strange when we think 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.719 about this, because this sounds like it is something that 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.320 could be written by a hate group like a white 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:53.760 power group. Today. However, um, this the stuff that comes 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:59.360 out of the FBI at this time is sadly in 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:04.040 line with a lot of other official government documentation and position. 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:08.720 So when they say that there are these radical black 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:12.559 hate groups or whatever, what, what they're focusing on are 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:16.960 things like the Student Non Violent Coordinating Committee and Stokely 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:22.200 Carmichael the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. Yeah, which they sund 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:26.280 like some bruisers, right, but they actually started program in 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:30.240 nineteen seventies, nineteen sixty seven, UH, and the FBI called 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:34.640 it co Intel pro Dash Black Hate. So it focused 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:38.320 on the Christian Leadership Conference, the Non Violent Coordinating Committee, 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:42.920 Martin Luther King himself, and the offices. UH. Twenty three 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:48.800 different FBI offices around the States were instructed to disrupt, misdirect, discredit, 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:52.480 or otherwise neutralize the activities of black nationalists hate type 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:59.200 organizations UM and the biggest to the right. Yeah too, 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:01.559 because there was a growing movement at the time and 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:03.480 they were just saying, you know, chop the head off, 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:06.760 you know. Not well they didn't. They didn't literally put 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:10.199 down in words anything about causing violence. Again these against 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:13.760 any of these leaders. They only were talking about undermining 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:16.880 their leadership, right, more of a nippet in the bud, Yes, 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.240 nippet in the bud, the kind of thing. And at 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:23.480 the same time this is interesting. At the same time, 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:29.640 they were working too to partner with other government agencies 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:35.319 in the case of wide scale civil unrest. I mean 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:38.719 riots that eat up a city and stuff. But one 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:42.000 of the one of the subtext of the secret co 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:46.640 Intel pro operations that I find so fascinating is that 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:50.560 a lot of this kicked into gear when Martin Luther 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:59.120 King was began speaking about uh, social inequality and financial inequality. 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:03.040 So the large speech that made him that made Dr 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:08.360 King number one on Hoover's Okay, we're a family friendly show, 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:12.240 so i'll call it a hit list, but that's alright, 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:19.520 short list of people that he considered a threat um. 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:22.959 One of the big speech that set this off was 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:28.920 came from his nineteen three March on Washington for Jobs 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:33.800 and Freedom, and that sounds so dangerous, doesn't it. Well, 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:36.240 I mean, I guess it could be to the status 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:40.360 quo at the time. But the the other thing was 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:46.800 the Poor People's Campaign, which was the idea to occupy Washington, 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:50.160 d C. And an idea that might sound familiar to 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:52.920 some of our listeners who might have been involved in 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:57.319 the occupy movement. So all of this goes on, and 0:13:57.400 --> 0:13:59.160 there are other players that we're going to meet too, 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.440 of course, the Nation of Islam, the Black Panther Party 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:05.640 and the Nation of Islam and the Black Panther Party, 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:12.160 UM are definitely much more UM, let's see, much more 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:14.760 likely to consider violence as a mean to an end. 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:20.360 And depending on the members or the sections of what 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:23.600 you go to for some of these groups, UM, you know, 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:28.120 the Nation of Islam does have clearly racist elements. And 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.160 you know, I don't feel comfortable making a blanket statement 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:35.000 about the Black Panther Party because I do believe that 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:38.640 there is a difference between saying, you know, you can 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:42.240 be a black nationalist and not be a racist person. UM. 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:45.400 I think that is I I think we might get 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:47.200 some hate mail for that, but I can defend that 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.560 statement and to be fair. At the same time, co 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:54.360 intel Pro has putting some resources into monitoring white hate groups, 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.280 specifically the Ku Klux Klan just a little bit. What 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:02.080 was it about? Yeah, yeah, UM, the vast majority of 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:05.760 funding was going towards monitoring uh black what they call 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:09.720 black hate groups. And as we find later when the 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:14.560 Church Committee from the U. S. Senate investigated co intel Pro, UH, 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:19.520 they found that Cointelpro in some ways began because the 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:25.200 FBI was UM felt the FBI felt stymied and UH 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:28.440 they felt like they were too constrained by the Supreme 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:33.200 Court going, hey, you can't go out and beat the 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:36.760 crap out of people because they don't, you know, want 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:40.360 they don't agree with the current setup of the government. Uh. 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:46.120 But interesting story. The public would have never known about 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:49.320 co intel pro or it would have stayed a conspiracy 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:54.600 theory where it not for one particular moment in history, 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:57.760 one particular crime. Yes it was. There was a crime, 0:15:57.920 --> 0:15:59.960 and we're gonna learn about that right after we get 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.240 back from a quick word from our sponsor. Thank you 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:07.160 for listening. And you know, like every every show, we 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:12.120 have ads and we just hope you will take into consideration. Uh, 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.840 you know, especially this new sponsor because we're really proud 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:20.080 of it. Are you tired of being unheard? Do you 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:23.360 feel that no one is listening to your voice? Are 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:26.120 you tired of forgetting all those great ideas you've had 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.000 and then just sitting around and trying to think of 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:33.400 them again in a haze of probably marijuana. When's the 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:37.920 last time you got angry about your phone bill? Friends, 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:41.400 fret no more. The answer to these and more questions 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:44.480 can all be found in our newest sponsor, Co and 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:51.200 Tell Phone. Co and Tell Phone, It's the only phone 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:55.600 that's always listening, even if it's all even if the 0:16:55.680 --> 0:17:00.200 batteries aren't in. Never fear your next statements. Any thing 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:04.200 from a half hearted murmur of assent to a rambling 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:07.480 rants about the president will be collected instantly at our 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:10.680 top secret dative facilities. Information will be sent to the 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:12.359 n s A, the FBI, to c i A, and 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.480 all other government agencies in the alphabet. And the best 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.520 part is there's no charge for either the data plan 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:24.120 or the phone itself. Be aware of the tampering with, hacking, altering, misusing, purposely, 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.920 misplacing or otherwise damaging your CO and Tell phone maybe 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.600 punishable by up to fifteen years in prison. So come 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.800 on down to your nearest corner anywhere really and just 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:36.520 wave your hands around and say I want CO and 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:41.040 Telephone and we'll be there. Co and Tell Phone. We're 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:53.359 always listening. Brought to you by and we're back. So 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:57.399 uh now it's time to talk about how John and 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:00.119 Jane Q Public ever learned of CO and t L 0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:03.720 pros weird racist campaign. To begin with, well, it's a 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:09.680 funny story, actually really interesting. Small group of activists calling 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:14.600 themselves the Citizens Commission to Investigate the FBI. They decided 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:19.000 they're in Philadelphia and there is a small FBI office 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:24.040 that is lightly guarded, and they believe that there is 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:29.800 information being held at the FBI um of illegal activities, essentially, 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:33.480 And these are just kind of regular citizens, like you said, Ben, 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:39.320 These aren't career criminals or no, not not criminals at all, terrorists. 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:42.560 These are much more likely to be students, academics and 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:47.160 such and uh, there's one PhD in there. And well, 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:50.000 they decided on the night of the Fight of the 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.840 Century in quotes the nine bout between Muhammad Ali and 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:57.000 Joe Frasier, they thought, well, hey, everybody's gonna be listening 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:00.960 on their radios or preoccupied on their television jans, this 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:03.840 is a great night to go and do some nefarious stuff, 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:08.800 nefarious to an extent. So they broke into the small office. 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:11.320 One guy was a lock pick, by the way, um, 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:15.760 and they took just a ton of files and they 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:21.240 proceeded to disseminate those files to various publishers and journalists. 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.280 And uh, that's how we found out about it, just 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:27.080 because a small group of people decided, you know what, 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:29.080 We're going to go in there and see what the 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.240 heck they're up to. And let's be clear, we are 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:36.119 not we're we're not able to say that this is 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:40.000 something people should ever do themselves, because it was committing 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:42.320 a crime. Still, they were absolutely committing. To correct, we 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:45.919 would not have uncovered the great deal of other crimes 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:49.320 perpetrated by the government had these people not committed a 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:54.199 crime themselves. In the aftermath of this, Uh, the public 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:59.880 goes bananas. Yeah, and this once upon a time, conspiracy 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:04.440 theories spread around by members of these various groups, including 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:09.320 anti war advocates. Uh, let's not forget that the FBI 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:13.400 also was focusing on people who were against the war 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:17.360 in Vietnam, for example. And so this comes to light 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:25.720 and what what is that from this, we see congressional investigations, 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:31.480 and these investigations conclude that the tactics employed by the 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:36.040 FBI and the programs that they were running are no 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:42.560 ifs ands or butts illegal so illegal just so against 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:46.520 the law. But then also the church committees report on 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:52.960 this emerged with some interesting instances of other, um, other 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:56.600 breaches of privacy, often the request of presidents. So let's 0:20:56.640 --> 0:21:00.879 just walk through the presidents real quick. I'm ready, okay, um, 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:04.080 if you had if one of your favorite presidents is 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.680 from or earlier, just to get ready to know they're 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:12.240 not perfect. Um. Alright, So Roosevelt, President Roosevelt won the 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:16.160 FBI to UH keep track of citizens who are sending 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:21.200 telegrams to the White House against his national defense policy. UM. 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:29.040 Truman got insider information on Roosevelt's UH staffing, UM his 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:32.400 staff aids and how he would arrange meetings with them. 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:40.560 Eisenhower got reports on any UH contacts like friends of 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:43.719 foreign officials who they hung out with when they hung 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:46.280 out Washington, which you know a lot of these you 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:49.080 can understand. If the abilities there, someone's going to use it. 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:56.080 UM the UH. Kennedy wire tapped a bunch of people, UM, 0:21:56.200 --> 0:22:01.480 including some law firms UM and UH the US and 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:06.600 his brother Robert F. Kennedy also UH listened into an 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:11.960 FBI wire tap on Dr King. I know President Johnson 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:15.600 Lyndon Johnson, who did all kinds of ridiculous stuff as well, 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:19.639 also had the FBI check up on his opponent in 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:25.159 the election. UH. And of course President Nixon had all 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:29.000 sorts of wire tapping adventures that we could probably cover 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:32.480 in a different podcast, and he himself found himself You know, 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:36.679 attached to a recording on the phone several times. Yep, uh, 0:22:37.200 --> 0:22:39.200 I guess it. I don't know. Is it a lesson? 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:44.320 Maybe tappers become the tapped. If you live by the tap, 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:46.159 you should die by the tap. I don't know. That 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:49.920 doesn't make sense. Yeah, that's just a bad quotation. But 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:56.160 with this, what what this means is that the program 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:59.280 was exposed. And these kind of things only thrive in 0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:02.960 darkness an obscurity. Yeah. The only the only way you're 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:05.440 ever going to find out about it if someone decides 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:08.720 to use go by their conscience and leak it out. 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:12.000 I mean really, it's It's kind of brings us back 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:15.320 to whistleblowers again and the importance of that kind of thing, 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:19.679 and also the danger to these organizations like the FBI 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:22.880 of whistleblowers and the n s A and why they're 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:26.960 so terrified of people like Edward Snowden and I. You know, 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:29.240 I have to ask you before let's take a sidebar, 0:23:29.359 --> 0:23:32.000 before we finish the co intel part or get to 0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:34.880 what I think is the most exciting part of this podcast. Um, 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:40.720 I have to ask you do you think that people 0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:44.400 who uh, people who as you said, follow their conscious 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:48.720 working for the government or any government and disclose these secrets. 0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:51.520 Do you think that they should be immune to the 0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:56.399 laws for violating that agreement? It's very strange, it should be. 0:23:57.880 --> 0:24:00.520 It's it's such a tough area because you've you've got 0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:03.600 to be beholden to law. Law has to stand no 0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:06.880 matter what. If we live in a just society. Um. 0:24:07.760 --> 0:24:11.080 But if but if a group, a group that you're 0:24:11.119 --> 0:24:14.240 working for is breaking the law and you're you're aware 0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:16.440 of it, but nobody else is aware of it, and 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:19.200 you come out, I think I think there should be 0:24:19.280 --> 0:24:22.920 some kind of immunity there. Okay, here's my thing. If 0:24:23.000 --> 0:24:26.399 you are whistle blowing for a private organization that is 0:24:26.480 --> 0:24:31.200 breaking the law, let's say, um let's let's say that 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:34.159 some you find out that some fast food company is 0:24:34.960 --> 0:24:39.480 uh skirting hygiene laws putting illegal additives in. You blow 0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:42.440 the whistle. You're probably gonna get fired. Why would you 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:44.760 want to keep working there? And there are protections for 0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:49.119 you and in government organizations or those affiliated with government 0:24:49.240 --> 0:24:53.840 organizations when you sign the oaths of secrecy or the 0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:55.720 n d A s and all that other stuff, which 0:24:55.800 --> 0:25:00.680 means non disclosure agreement, then I believe that people should 0:25:00.960 --> 0:25:03.440 if you're if you're following your conscience, you should be 0:25:03.640 --> 0:25:07.240 fully prepared for the ramifications or consequences of the actions 0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:10.000 that you agree to, Like it's a process that you 0:25:10.080 --> 0:25:12.680 agree to originally. And we could have some maybe some 0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:15.120 of our listeners will write in and say, well, there 0:25:15.280 --> 0:25:17.720 they you don't know what you're agreeing to. It's a 0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:19.800 pig in a poke because you don't know what you're 0:25:19.880 --> 0:25:23.480 keeping secret in tift you sign it. But the idea 0:25:23.840 --> 0:25:31.520 of UM, the the idea of blanket immunity for anyone 0:25:31.840 --> 0:25:36.080 who follows their conscious that the problem with that is 0:25:36.200 --> 0:25:39.600 that people's conscious or moral decisions don't always follow the 0:25:39.640 --> 0:25:42.639 same compass. Sure, sure they all vary. And and also 0:25:42.840 --> 0:25:46.320 if that was true, then yeah, there would be so 0:25:46.400 --> 0:25:50.760 many whistleblowers because come on, man, capitalism is based on 0:25:50.880 --> 0:25:55.000 the exploitation of of something, right I mean, And so 0:25:55.160 --> 0:25:59.560 if you're if everyone was following their conscience, yeah, nothing 0:25:59.600 --> 0:26:03.439 would ever get done. There would be no industry. Well, 0:26:03.480 --> 0:26:05.440 you know, it's very interesting because you and I have 0:26:05.800 --> 0:26:10.040 You and I have had this conversation often and outside 0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:12.480 of work or when we're off the air, and one 0:26:12.520 --> 0:26:15.200 of the questions that we ask each other is are 0:26:15.280 --> 0:26:19.760 we approaching a future wherein secrets will be impossible? And 0:26:19.880 --> 0:26:22.360 I think that's a that's a powerful question, but it's 0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:25.280 also a question for another day. And but it kind 0:26:25.280 --> 0:26:29.480 of brings us to the last part of this episode, 0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:34.160 which is, as we approached this future where secrets don't 0:26:34.200 --> 0:26:38.000 exist anymore, and we're getting closer and closer to that edge, 0:26:39.440 --> 0:26:42.920 what the heck happened to this co Intel program? Does 0:26:43.000 --> 0:26:46.480 it still exist and it or did it just morph? 0:26:47.320 --> 0:26:50.879 Did it change a little bit into something else? What 0:26:50.960 --> 0:26:55.520 do you think? Ben? Personally? I think that it never 0:26:55.680 --> 0:27:01.359 really stopped. There's absolutely no reason nor compelling consequence large 0:27:01.480 --> 0:27:07.960 enough to prevent people from continuing to use this ability. 0:27:08.280 --> 0:27:12.119 In fact, as the leaks by both Julian Osandra and 0:27:12.200 --> 0:27:18.320 Edwards Snowden show, UH, the technology has increased and the 0:27:18.600 --> 0:27:24.480 intent has also become more focused, more clarified. Uh. The 0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:30.040