1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: From UFOs two ghosts and government cover ups. History is 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Greetings everyone, 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: welcome back. My name is Max and I am Ben 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. Today, 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: we're looking at something that's pretty dark. It's a part 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: of the American past, and it encompasses a lot of 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: different groups, um, but one in particular. Right we are 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 1: talking about the famous co in tell pro Ladies and gentlemen. 10 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: This is one of those things that was once called 11 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: a conspiracy theory and later emerged, surprise, surprise, to be 12 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: a factual conspiracy spanning decades. And what we'd like to 13 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: do today is talk a little bit up how this came, 14 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: about what it was, how it affected both the United 15 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: States and the world, and uh, maybe we'll end on 16 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: a question about what happened to it? Right, Yeah, where 17 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: did it go? Oh? Man? What what dark humor? We 18 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: already have at the beginning gallows or here? Um? All right, 19 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: so co intel pro uh counter intelligence on the part 20 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: of the FBI, the Federal Bureau of Investigation here in 21 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: good old us of a UM, the thing is that 22 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: this was an act of political repression, right, yes, and 23 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: it was a way to keep tabs on political groups 24 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: that were completely legal inside the US that the FBI, 25 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: headed by Jedger Hoover, believed could be a threat to 26 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: the country. Now what kind of threat existential? Physical? Right, 27 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: kind of argicles, ideological? Yeah, it varies, but the one 28 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: that we're gonna be focusing on today or the threats 29 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: are the physical threats that? Okay, yeah, and I think 30 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: that's fair. So a little bit of background cointelpro you're 31 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: probably wondering, is this another overly awkward government acronym? Uh? 32 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: Kind of but not really because it's it stands for 33 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: counterintelligence programs, So thank goodness, it's not like changing one 34 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: intelligent new I can't do that. But but the point 35 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: being here that it was an active UH surveillance and 36 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: repression program UH seen as vital for the national security 37 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: of the United States. And of course, national security is 38 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: everybody's favorite boogeyman, depending on which political generation you live in. Well, 39 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: so it's a boogeyman, and it's also the thing you 40 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: can just mention if you want to convince someone that 41 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 1: it's something is important. Yeah, I wish I could start 42 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: using national security just on my own personal thing for 43 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: some extra swag, but unfortunately I'm not a nation yet. 44 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 1: One day many yeah, maybe one day. But uh so, 45 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: the FBI, as we know, has engaged in similar acts 46 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: way way back in its time of inception, which is, 47 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: you know, uh, the early nineteen hundreds. Another example that 48 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: isn't quite cointelpro but it's a very similar operation would 49 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: be the FBI surveillance of suspected communists during the two 50 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: Red Scares of US history. That's right, there were two. 51 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, I'm just I feel like maybe we 52 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: need to go ahead and do a whole another episode 53 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: on that as well. I think that deserves its own research. Um, 54 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: if you'd like to hear more about the Red Scare 55 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: one and then it's Red Scare Redo, let us know 56 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: and we will make a whole audio episode on that. 57 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: And uh I also did a guest host spot with 58 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: stuff you missed in history class on the Red Scare, 59 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: so you can tune in to hear some of that. 60 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: It's a deep cut, you guys. It's an oldie, but 61 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: a goodie. So we know that there were these different 62 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: methods for combating people who would challenge the status quo 63 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 1: of the nation. These could be people like communists or 64 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: anarchistra other political dissidents. These could also just be labor 65 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: movements and unions. Um So during the Truman and Roosevelt 66 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: years we start to see things that are more direct 67 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: predecessors of cointelpro around the thirties. But what we're talking about. 68 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: Cointelpro in its most well known form, officially began in 69 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: ninety six in August, and it was to stop the 70 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: communist communists. Man, you don't like capitalism, that everything that 71 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: we do is based on this one idea of the 72 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: set of ideas. So, uh, the kind of stuff they 73 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: would do, uh seems to range from mean spirited middle 74 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: school or pranks like anonymous phone calls you know quit, well, 75 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: you you know quit? You read commie yeah, two unnecessary 76 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: audits or unnecessarily thorough audits, government harassment and attempts to 77 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: infiltrate these groups and of course turn them against one another. 78 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: And something I never really thought about, ben is that 79 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: just the act of infiltrating a group one time and 80 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: then making it known that that group has been infiltrated 81 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: can create such dissension inside a group even if you 82 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: didn't really do use that infiltration for any means other 83 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: than to expose that it's been infiltrated. It just that 84 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 1: idea creates such suspicion amongst group members. Uh. It creates 85 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 1: uh yeah, just that idea of oh wait, now, if 86 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 1: that guy was an infiltrator or an FBI agent, then 87 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: oh my god, who is this person I've been speaking with? Right? 88 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: And it removes credibility for outside groups or outside observers 89 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: who might be future supporters of a group. Uh. So, well, 90 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: let's brackett the idea of communists as a threat to 91 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: the U S. I agree, It's a different show. Um, 92 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 1: we won't cover today. Let's look at the one of 93 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: the huge problems here, which is that shortly after um, 94 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: the inception of the modern co intel pro guy named Hoover, 95 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: who some of our listeners may have heard of, uh, decided, 96 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: you know who is also a threat to America as 97 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: it stands today, Uh, black leaders, black people in general, because, 98 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: as we can tell, Hoover at this time is a 99 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: fan of the racist ideology prevalent in the United States, 100 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: at least it seems to be from the memos that 101 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: have been Uh, I guess he classified in the kay 102 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: you're being very fair, Matt, I'm trying to be fair. 103 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: You are being very fair, and I'm sorry. Um, clearly 104 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: I am pro civil rights. No, I'm kidding, O kidding, 105 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: I I am joking. I am joking. But yeah, I 106 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: think you're being fair with the treatment of Hoover because 107 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: all we know is um the stuff left over in 108 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: the documents that, as far as we know, we're authored 109 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: by him. Right. Yeah, he was obviously afraid because again 110 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: he was head of the FBI at this time, and 111 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: he was obviously afraid of in what he called an 112 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: uprising um basically an overthrow of the status quo of 113 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: the time. Right, he pictured a revolution, yes, and after 114 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty three he started saying, Martin Luther King Jr. 115 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: Is the primary focus or the primary um, the potential 116 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: leader of a violent revolution or a violent revolution, which 117 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: is which is strange when you think about it, because 118 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: one of the huge differentiating factors between Martin Luther King 119 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: and other similar leaders like Malcolm X was that Martin 120 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: Luther King Jr. Uh clearly advocated UH non violent revolution, 121 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: you know, similar to Gandhi, similar to other organizations seeking 122 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: equality around the world. And in the FBI and memos, 123 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: it actually states that Martin Luther King Jr. Would be 124 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: the supreme leader of this UH of the black nationalist 125 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: movement if not for what they called his liberal leanings, 126 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: his non violence right. They specifically called it his white 127 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: liberals something right. I think we have a quote, and 128 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: while we're checking that out, let's just go ahead and say, 129 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: off the top, a little bit of a disclaimer, UH, 130 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: Cohen Hell pros illegal activities during this time we're conducted 131 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: in secret, were conducted without government oversight outside of the FBI, 132 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:15,599 Speaker 1: And we're incredibly racist with this sort of veneer of 133 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: um concern for social social upstanding. But it's just the 134 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: same way that you would hear people use other euphemisms 135 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: in sadly enough, the modern day to disguise UH, huge 136 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: racist tendencies. So we are going to be talking about 137 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: some very ugly things in US history, to say the least. 138 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: So so I'm just gonna give you this is a 139 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: partial quote from the the memo about the the counterintelligence program, 140 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,719 Speaker 1: and this is referring to black nationalists hate groups. This 141 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,719 Speaker 1: is what they called them, Black nationalists hate groups. And 142 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: this is part of the goals in one of these memos, 143 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: and I'm just gonna read this to you, um, please 144 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: forgive me, like thank you for that caveat Ben. But 145 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: here we go. This is goal number two, to prevent 146 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 1: the rise of a messiah who could unify and electrify 147 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: the militant black nationalist movement. Malcolm X might have been 148 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 1: such a messiah. Cole and he is the martyr of 149 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: the movement today. Martin Luther King, Stokely Carmichael, and Elijah 150 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: Mohammed all aspire to this position. King could be a 151 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: very real contender for this position should he abandon his 152 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: supposed obedience to white liberal doctrine. And then in uh, 153 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: and then it just says non violence, uh in quotation marks. 154 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's it's uh. It's strange when we think 155 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,719 Speaker 1: about this, because this sounds like it is something that 156 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: could be written by a hate group like a white 157 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: power group. Today. However, um, this the stuff that comes 158 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: out of the FBI at this time is sadly in 159 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: line with a lot of other official government documentation and position. 160 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: So when they say that there are these radical black 161 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 1: hate groups or whatever, what, what they're focusing on are 162 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 1: things like the Student Non Violent Coordinating Committee and Stokely 163 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: Carmichael the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. Yeah, which they sund 164 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: like some bruisers, right, but they actually started program in 165 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, nineteen sixty seven, UH, and the FBI called 166 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: it co Intel pro Dash Black Hate. So it focused 167 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: on the Christian Leadership Conference, the Non Violent Coordinating Committee, 168 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: Martin Luther King himself, and the offices. UH. Twenty three 169 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: different FBI offices around the States were instructed to disrupt, misdirect, discredit, 170 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: or otherwise neutralize the activities of black nationalists hate type 171 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: organizations UM and the biggest to the right. Yeah too, 172 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 1: because there was a growing movement at the time and 173 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: they were just saying, you know, chop the head off, 174 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: you know. Not well they didn't. They didn't literally put 175 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 1: down in words anything about causing violence. Again these against 176 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: any of these leaders. They only were talking about undermining 177 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: their leadership, right, more of a nippet in the bud, Yes, 178 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: nippet in the bud, the kind of thing. And at 179 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: the same time this is interesting. At the same time, 180 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: they were working too to partner with other government agencies 181 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 1: in the case of wide scale civil unrest. I mean 182 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,719 Speaker 1: riots that eat up a city and stuff. But one 183 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: of the one of the subtext of the secret co 184 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: Intel pro operations that I find so fascinating is that 185 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: a lot of this kicked into gear when Martin Luther 186 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: King was began speaking about uh, social inequality and financial inequality. 187 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: So the large speech that made him that made Dr 188 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: King number one on Hoover's Okay, we're a family friendly show, 189 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: so i'll call it a hit list, but that's alright, 190 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: short list of people that he considered a threat um. 191 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,959 Speaker 1: One of the big speech that set this off was 192 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: came from his nineteen three March on Washington for Jobs 193 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: and Freedom, and that sounds so dangerous, doesn't it. Well, 194 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it could be to the status 195 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: quo at the time. But the the other thing was 196 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: the Poor People's Campaign, which was the idea to occupy Washington, 197 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: d C. And an idea that might sound familiar to 198 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: some of our listeners who might have been involved in 199 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: the occupy movement. So all of this goes on, and 200 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: there are other players that we're going to meet too, 201 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: of course, the Nation of Islam, the Black Panther Party 202 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: and the Nation of Islam and the Black Panther Party, 203 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: UM are definitely much more UM, let's see, much more 204 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: likely to consider violence as a mean to an end. 205 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: And depending on the members or the sections of what 206 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: you go to for some of these groups, UM, you know, 207 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: the Nation of Islam does have clearly racist elements. And 208 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: you know, I don't feel comfortable making a blanket statement 209 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: about the Black Panther Party because I do believe that 210 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: there is a difference between saying, you know, you can 211 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: be a black nationalist and not be a racist person. UM. 212 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: I think that is I I think we might get 213 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: some hate mail for that, but I can defend that 214 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: statement and to be fair. At the same time, co 215 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: intel Pro has putting some resources into monitoring white hate groups, 216 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: specifically the Ku Klux Klan just a little bit. What 217 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: was it about? Yeah, yeah, UM, the vast majority of 218 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: funding was going towards monitoring uh black what they call 219 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: black hate groups. And as we find later when the 220 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: Church Committee from the U. S. Senate investigated co intel Pro, UH, 221 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: they found that Cointelpro in some ways began because the 222 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: FBI was UM felt the FBI felt stymied and UH 223 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: they felt like they were too constrained by the Supreme 224 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: Court going, hey, you can't go out and beat the 225 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: crap out of people because they don't, you know, want 226 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: they don't agree with the current setup of the government. Uh. 227 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: But interesting story. The public would have never known about 228 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: co intel pro or it would have stayed a conspiracy 229 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: theory where it not for one particular moment in history, 230 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: one particular crime. Yes it was. There was a crime, 231 00:15:57,920 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: and we're gonna learn about that right after we get 232 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: back from a quick word from our sponsor. Thank you 233 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: for listening. And you know, like every every show, we 234 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: have ads and we just hope you will take into consideration. Uh, 235 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: you know, especially this new sponsor because we're really proud 236 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: of it. 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So come 256 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: on down to your nearest corner anywhere really and just 257 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: wave your hands around and say I want CO and 258 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: Telephone and we'll be there. Co and Tell Phone. We're 259 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: always listening. Brought to you by and we're back. So 260 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: uh now it's time to talk about how John and 261 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 1: Jane Q Public ever learned of CO and t L 262 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: pros weird racist campaign. To begin with, well, it's a 263 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 1: funny story, actually really interesting. Small group of activists calling 264 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: themselves the Citizens Commission to Investigate the FBI. They decided 265 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: they're in Philadelphia and there is a small FBI office 266 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: that is lightly guarded, and they believe that there is 267 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: information being held at the FBI um of illegal activities, essentially, 268 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: And these are just kind of regular citizens, like you said, Ben, 269 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: These aren't career criminals or no, not not criminals at all, terrorists. 270 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: These are much more likely to be students, academics and 271 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 1: such and uh, there's one PhD in there. And well, 272 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: they decided on the night of the Fight of the 273 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: Century in quotes the nine bout between Muhammad Ali and 274 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: Joe Frasier, they thought, well, hey, everybody's gonna be listening 275 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: on their radios or preoccupied on their television jans, this 276 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: is a great night to go and do some nefarious stuff, 277 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: nefarious to an extent. So they broke into the small office. 278 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: One guy was a lock pick, by the way, um, 279 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: and they took just a ton of files and they 280 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: proceeded to disseminate those files to various publishers and journalists. 281 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: And uh, that's how we found out about it, just 282 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: because a small group of people decided, you know what, 283 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: We're going to go in there and see what the 284 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: heck they're up to. And let's be clear, we are 285 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: not we're we're not able to say that this is 286 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: something people should ever do themselves, because it was committing 287 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: a crime. Still, they were absolutely committing. To correct, we 288 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 1: would not have uncovered the great deal of other crimes 289 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: perpetrated by the government had these people not committed a 290 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: crime themselves. In the aftermath of this, Uh, the public 291 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: goes bananas. Yeah, and this once upon a time, conspiracy 292 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: theories spread around by members of these various groups, including 293 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: anti war advocates. Uh, let's not forget that the FBI 294 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 1: also was focusing on people who were against the war 295 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 1: in Vietnam, for example. And so this comes to light 296 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: and what what is that from this, we see congressional investigations, 297 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: and these investigations conclude that the tactics employed by the 298 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: FBI and the programs that they were running are no 299 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: ifs ands or butts illegal so illegal just so against 300 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: the law. But then also the church committees report on 301 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: this emerged with some interesting instances of other, um, other 302 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: breaches of privacy, often the request of presidents. So let's 303 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: just walk through the presidents real quick. I'm ready, okay, um, 304 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: if you had if one of your favorite presidents is 305 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: from or earlier, just to get ready to know they're 306 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: not perfect. Um. Alright, So Roosevelt, President Roosevelt won the 307 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: FBI to UH keep track of citizens who are sending 308 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: telegrams to the White House against his national defense policy. UM. 309 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: Truman got insider information on Roosevelt's UH staffing, UM his 310 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 1: staff aids and how he would arrange meetings with them. 311 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: Eisenhower got reports on any UH contacts like friends of 312 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,719 Speaker 1: foreign officials who they hung out with when they hung 313 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: out Washington, which you know a lot of these you 314 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: can understand. If the abilities there, someone's going to use it. 315 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: UM the UH. Kennedy wire tapped a bunch of people, UM, 316 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: including some law firms UM and UH the US and 317 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: his brother Robert F. Kennedy also UH listened into an 318 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: FBI wire tap on Dr King. I know President Johnson 319 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: Lyndon Johnson, who did all kinds of ridiculous stuff as well, 320 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: also had the FBI check up on his opponent in 321 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: the election. UH. And of course President Nixon had all 322 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: sorts of wire tapping adventures that we could probably cover 323 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: in a different podcast, and he himself found himself You know, 324 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 1: attached to a recording on the phone several times. Yep, uh, 325 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: I guess it. I don't know. Is it a lesson? 326 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: Maybe tappers become the tapped. If you live by the tap, 327 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: you should die by the tap. I don't know. That 328 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense. Yeah, that's just a bad quotation. But 329 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: with this, what what this means is that the program 330 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: was exposed. And these kind of things only thrive in 331 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: darkness an obscurity. Yeah. The only the only way you're 332 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: ever going to find out about it if someone decides 333 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: to use go by their conscience and leak it out. 334 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: I mean really, it's It's kind of brings us back 335 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: to whistleblowers again and the importance of that kind of thing, 336 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 1: and also the danger to these organizations like the FBI 337 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 1: of whistleblowers and the n s A and why they're 338 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: so terrified of people like Edward Snowden and I. You know, 339 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: I have to ask you before let's take a sidebar, 340 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: before we finish the co intel part or get to 341 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 1: what I think is the most exciting part of this podcast. Um, 342 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: I have to ask you do you think that people 343 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 1: who uh, people who as you said, follow their conscious 344 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: working for the government or any government and disclose these secrets. 345 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: Do you think that they should be immune to the 346 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: laws for violating that agreement? It's very strange, it should be. 347 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: It's it's such a tough area because you've you've got 348 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: to be beholden to law. Law has to stand no 349 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 1: matter what. If we live in a just society. Um. 350 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: But if but if a group, a group that you're 351 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: working for is breaking the law and you're you're aware 352 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: of it, but nobody else is aware of it, and 353 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: you come out, I think I think there should be 354 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: some kind of immunity there. Okay, here's my thing. If 355 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: you are whistle blowing for a private organization that is 356 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: breaking the law, let's say, um let's let's say that 357 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 1: some you find out that some fast food company is 358 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: uh skirting hygiene laws putting illegal additives in. You blow 359 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: the whistle. You're probably gonna get fired. Why would you 360 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: want to keep working there? And there are protections for 361 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 1: you and in government organizations or those affiliated with government 362 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: organizations when you sign the oaths of secrecy or the 363 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: n d A s and all that other stuff, which 364 00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 1: means non disclosure agreement, then I believe that people should 365 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: if you're if you're following your conscience, you should be 366 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: fully prepared for the ramifications or consequences of the actions 367 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: that you agree to, Like it's a process that you 368 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 1: agree to originally. And we could have some maybe some 369 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 1: of our listeners will write in and say, well, there 370 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: they you don't know what you're agreeing to. It's a 371 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: pig in a poke because you don't know what you're 372 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: keeping secret in tift you sign it. But the idea 373 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: of UM, the the idea of blanket immunity for anyone 374 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: who follows their conscious that the problem with that is 375 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: that people's conscious or moral decisions don't always follow the 376 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: same compass. Sure, sure they all vary. And and also 377 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: if that was true, then yeah, there would be so 378 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: many whistleblowers because come on, man, capitalism is based on 379 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: the exploitation of of something, right I mean, And so 380 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: if you're if everyone was following their conscience, yeah, nothing 381 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 1: would ever get done. There would be no industry. Well, 382 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 1: you know, it's very interesting because you and I have 383 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: You and I have had this conversation often and outside 384 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: of work or when we're off the air, and one 385 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: of the questions that we ask each other is are 386 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: we approaching a future wherein secrets will be impossible? And 387 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 1: I think that's a that's a powerful question, but it's 388 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: also a question for another day. And but it kind 389 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: of brings us to the last part of this episode, 390 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 1: which is, as we approached this future where secrets don't 391 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: exist anymore, and we're getting closer and closer to that edge, 392 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: what the heck happened to this co Intel program? Does 393 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: it still exist and it or did it just morph? 394 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 1: Did it change a little bit into something else? What 395 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: do you think? Ben? Personally? I think that it never 396 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: really stopped. There's absolutely no reason nor compelling consequence large 397 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: enough to prevent people from continuing to use this ability. 398 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: In fact, as the leaks by both Julian Osandra and 399 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: Edwards Snowden show, UH, the technology has increased and the 400 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: intent has also become more focused, more clarified. Uh. The 401 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: idea of national security UM, whether or not you are 402 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 1: I or anyone thinks it's a valid or invalid thing. Uh, 403 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: the point is that the idea has enough support there 404 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: that it gets us to uh some some frightening edges. 405 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 1: So I think that not only do things like cointelpro 406 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: continue and there is proof that you know, these things 407 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: do continue, maybe not in a huge unified way, but 408 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: it's kind of monitoring infiltration clearly continues. Um. The scary 409 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: thing is for me it six siding and frightening is uh, 410 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 1: how how far along has technology pushed these original aims? 411 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: You know, the idea that the days of having to 412 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: physically go to a telephone line, physically put a wire 413 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: in to listen to someone. Uh, those days are long gone. Yeah, 414 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: that is That is something that we didn't even really 415 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: talk about too much. Is the methods used for these 416 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: co intels under the information Um, and I don't mean 417 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 1: to swing way back, but just as some context for 418 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: what we're talking about here, you would you if you 419 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: wanted to say, listen into somebody's conversations they were having 420 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: in a hotel room, let's say in a motel somewhere, 421 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: the you would have to get the room next to 422 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: adjacent to the room of the person you're trying to monitor, 423 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: put a microphone up against the wall, or somehow plant 424 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: a microphone in that room before they rent the room out, 425 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: or I mean there's it was very difficult, or you'd 426 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: have to catch them on a phone conversation in order 427 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: to get actual evidence. Yeah, there's uh there's a guy 428 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: named Brian Glick who wrote a book called War at Home, 429 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: and in War at Home, Glick talks about for umbrella 430 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: methods that the FBI would use during co and telpro 431 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: and one of these courses infiltration. So you know, you're 432 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: I know, I always use the Vegan co op as 433 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: an example, So you're you're the Vegan coop, right, and 434 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: guys are uh so angry that, um, it's difficult to 435 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: grow heirloom produce right because of all the pesticides used 436 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: in large agricultural concerns and income. Some guy, you know, 437 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: Falcon and he came from Portland's or something, and he's 438 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: super cool. You know, he's cool. It turns out he's 439 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: been working for the FBI the entire time, not Falcon Alkin. 440 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: And then there's uh so that's one infiltration, another one 441 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: psychological war fair. I would also count this as propaganda, 442 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: So this would be misinformation like sending out getting the 443 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: letter head of whatever group you're upset with, and then 444 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: sending out baked publications like I always I always enjoy 445 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: reading a news story, um where the news is coming 446 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: from an anonymous source or an official who asked not 447 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: to be named of the company or the department, because 448 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: that that kind of that always makes me think that 449 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: someone got the soft go ahead, the soft green light. Uh. 450 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: So the next one would be legal harassment. This is 451 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: what we're talking about when we said, UM, people getting 452 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: audited every year on the dot um without necessarily being 453 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: shady or false, arrest um, wrong, wrongful imprisonment um. And 454 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: then another one, of course, one of the more dangerous 455 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: would be illegal force uh, which which is kind of 456 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: a vague term, but that means stuff like partnering with 457 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: local law enforcement to do break in a raid on 458 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: a house. No, no warrant searches is one of the 459 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: big ones. Nowidation really that's yeah, it all all, all, 460 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: all three of the everything except for UM. I think 461 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: the propaganda stuff goes back to intimidation and maybe propaganda 462 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: as well. Psychological warfare also includes directly addressing people. It's 463 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: a dirty, murky realm. It is infiltration, it is and 464 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: you know, we have to stop back. We have to 465 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: step back for a second here, UM, and I have 466 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: to ask you the question, and then we also have 467 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: to make a statement after this. So here's the question. That. 468 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: Do you think Coentel Pro or something like it continues. Well, yeah, 469 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: I think obviously, I think anyone who's paying attention to 470 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: the news lately, just the technology. The technology makes it 471 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: so easy. Now, why wouldn't you, like you said earlier, 472 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: you know, if if you have access to a technology 473 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: that makes with the presidents that you have the ability 474 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: to get I'm going to use this word. I know 475 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: this is kind of a bad word, but gather information. 476 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: It's so easy to do it now that why wouldn't 477 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: you So? Yeah, it's if we look at these capabilities 478 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: is sort of the Lord of the Rings analogy, a 479 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: ring of power. It's very, very difficult to throw that 480 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: kind of ability away, and for some people it's impossible. 481 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: But uh, that's that's a pretty crappy comparison, of course. Um, 482 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: one thing I would say, or maybe it's not too 483 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: much of a bad comparison, because you can be invisible, 484 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: can as you said, gather information. I like it. I'm 485 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: on board. I'm back on board with it. But the 486 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 1: biggest thing that is whether or not it's whether or 487 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: not the infiltration techniques are being used and the you know, um, 488 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of groups that are being uh, 489 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: you know, their doors are being pushed in by a 490 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: local police or something. There are groups who have made 491 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: we've made claims about stuff like this. Uh. We have 492 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: to be very careful with this too, because it's no 493 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: secret that often, often both both sides of these equations 494 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: can tell wildly different stories. You know. There are examples 495 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: of people who said that the um f d A 496 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: came and confiscated all of the raw milk that a 497 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: small farm was creating. Um, and it comes out that 498 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: there was an outbreak of disease and it wasn't just 499 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: this farm, it was everything in a certain risk area 500 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: or something like that. I'm not saying that there's a 501 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: right wrong, but I am saying there are two ways 502 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: about it. And then I feel that it would be 503 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: remiss for us to make this this statement. Um, don't 504 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: do it. Let me get my soapbox. Oh yeah, if 505 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: we did not make this statement, we would be remiss. 506 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: Thank you mann. Good save um, so, let me get 507 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: my audio soapbox. Here. Probably hear me stepping up on it, 508 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: and here we go. We are not saying that governments 509 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: are inherently evil. We are not telling anybody that, you know, 510 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: big brother is going to come and just steal things 511 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 1: to make your life inconvenient, like just your left shoes 512 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: or something. But what we are saying is that it 513 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: is clearly proven that cointelpro as with the co Intel 514 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: pro pro proper, actually did occur and probably would have 515 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: continued had it not been for someone committing a crime. 516 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,359 Speaker 1: This is a very heavy moral question, you know, um, 517 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: and it's one that comes back up again in the 518 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: modern day with Edward Snowdon. I read an interesting conspiracy 519 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: theory recently met that said, um, Edward Snowdon as a 520 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: Russian operative, um and that he was deep cover, which 521 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: doesn't make too much sense given his age. But um, 522 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: I've been reading a lot of Edward Snowden conspiracy theories 523 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: and I heard, uh one that said that he was 524 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: working for Russia and that the secrets he's quote unquote leaked, 525 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: we're not really true at all, and it's Russian propaganda. Um. Well, 526 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 1: our our government certainly hasn't done a great job of 527 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: dispelling They have not. They have not. And then another 528 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: one I read was that um was that he had 529 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: Edward Snowden had a green light from Washington and from 530 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 1: Langley to go public with this, whoa to try and 531 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: start descent amongst them? I don't know, the World War 532 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 1: three will come along and then there wasn't any evidence 533 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 1: of this at least that I could find. But you know, 534 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: right in and and uh, let us know what you think. Well, 535 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: it's see, it's so crazy, man, because in the world's 536 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: again these murky world of just spying and and secret information. 537 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: Who the heck? Who do you trust? Ben? Who do 538 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: I trust? Who can you trust? Um? No trust no one. Yeah, 539 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 1: I'm starting to wonder about you and Noel. Honestly, Well, look, 540 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: I'll tell you about an old later. We'll have a 541 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: little sidebar. He's always listening. He's always got these headphones on. 542 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: I swear you can hear every word that I say. Alright, 543 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: so uh before here, Well, thee last thing, one last thing. 544 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: If you're if you're interested in the Citizens Commission to 545 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,479 Speaker 1: Investigate the FBI and that whole story, please check out 546 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: The Burglary Colon The Discovery of Jed gro Hoover's Secret FBI. 547 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: It's a book written by Betty Metzker and it's fascinating. 548 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: I put a little clip of it in our episode 549 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: about coin tel pro Um when I think they were 550 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 1: on democracy Now. It's a fascinating book. It's really good read. Um, 551 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: check it out if you're interested. Oh and less, do 552 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: you think that we are being a direct source of misinformation? 553 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: And maybe you're saying no, man, Co and tell Pro 554 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: that's crazy talk. You can go to the FBI dot 555 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: gov website directly check out the thing they have called 556 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: the vault where they admit what the Congressional investigation found 557 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 1: in CO and tel Pro. That was a mental exercise 558 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 1: to phrase that that carefully, wasn't it. That is interesting 559 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 1: that they're like, yes, we will admit to what this 560 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: one congressional committee said was true. And you know that's 561 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: probably that's probably the way you have to do it. 562 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:39,280 Speaker 1: And as always before we in the podcast, we always 563 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: want to go straight to the learn more with with you, Matt. 564 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,399 Speaker 1: You always have a source for us to learn more from, 565 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: and thank you for doing that, by the way, And 566 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: then we like to read listener mail. All right, we've 567 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 1: got got a couple today. So um, First, we we've 568 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 1: been getting some ghost stories. Remember we get the ghosts 569 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: really good one. Yes. Uh so first I was thinking 570 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 1: we could go to a government related thing and then 571 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 1: we'll do one ghost story, all right. So uh, Tiffany 572 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: w writes to us, um, I believe Tiffany is just 573 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: from the Internet. She doesn't say where she's from. So 574 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 1: Tiffany says, Hi, guys, I'm writing to request to show 575 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 1: about nine eleven and Ben Lauden. Uh heh, Tiffany says, 576 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: A cousin of mine recently posted to Facebook this. I 577 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 1: feel bad for Ben lauding our government through nine eleven 578 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: on him. He denied it, But if you did that 579 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: to America, wouldn't you brag about it? Don't believe me? 580 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: Watch loose Change nine eleven, which is loose change is 581 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 1: a thing that you and I hear about a lot. 582 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 1: It's one of the first things I ever saw in 583 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: the Conspiracy realm uh So, Tiffany continues, it was such 584 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 1: an inflammatory post. He got quite defensive when the folks 585 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: on his friends list tried to debate this with him. 586 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: I would like to know more about this topic. I 587 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 1: know it's controversial and it's a touchy subject, but it 588 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: might be a good idea to educate folks about this 589 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 1: topic and the theory surrounding it. I'm in a man 590 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: A few words, all right, Um, yeah, we'll take a 591 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: look at especially if other listeners are interested in hearing it, 592 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: or there's something you want us to talk about related 593 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: to ben La and nine eleven. Let us know our 594 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 1: last email, the one that is related to ghosts. I'm 595 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 1: looking at it and I'm realizing it's probably a little 596 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: too long to read on on this show right now. 597 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: Maybe we can great, Yeah, it was great. Uh. It 598 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: comes from a friend of ours named Nick. Uh and 599 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 1: Nick wrote into tell us about a paranormal experience he 600 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: add on set on Saturday in December nineteen, two thousand 601 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: and nine, which remains the worst day of his life. Uh. Nick, 602 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,320 Speaker 1: we hope you're listening. We want you to know that 603 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: we were big fans of this story, and you know, 604 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,320 Speaker 1: maybe we should save this for when we do another 605 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 1: entirely listener mail episode. That'd be great. We just read 606 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 1: the entire story. Yeah, we can make a make a 607 00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: day of it. Yeah, let's do it. Let's put that 608 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: the vault, all right, So everybody is gonna have to 609 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 1: hold on for Nick's ghost story. But we've been receiving 610 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 1: some other great ghost stories and uh, we would like 611 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: to read some of them on the air in the future. 612 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 1: So if you have a story for us, please write 613 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 1: to us and let us know. You can find us 614 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter, you can 615 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:24,800 Speaker 1: find us on Oh what wait, big news. We have 616 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,760 Speaker 1: our very own website now it's w w W dot stuff. 617 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: They don't want you to know dot com. Yeah, it's 618 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: all true. We have a website. It's crazy. If you 619 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,799 Speaker 1: guys want to support what we're doing here, the best 620 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: way to do that is to go to our website. 621 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,359 Speaker 1: You can watch all of our videos there. You can 622 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 1: listen to all of these podcast episodes. Um easily clickable. 623 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,399 Speaker 1: We're gonna have blogs coming. Uh. And we also want 624 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: to know if we should start a forum. We've been 625 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 1: looking into it. We don't want to start it unless 626 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,320 Speaker 1: you are into it and something that you would be 627 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,320 Speaker 1: interested in doing. Uh. Being able to talk with the 628 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: other listeners in this community directly. Uh inside, Yes, and 629 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 1: in the future are that forum can really serve as 630 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: our future episode kind of the machine that creates our 631 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: future episodes where we have people discussing certain topics and 632 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: then I think it's gonna be huge if you guys 633 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: are interested. Every every really good episode we do is 634 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 1: not originally our idea comes from a listener. It comes 635 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: from someone like you in the audience. So let us 636 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: know what the next big idea is. Let us know 637 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: what we should cover. Let us know what you think 638 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,800 Speaker 1: about CO and Tell and about ghosts, and what we 639 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: should say or look into, at least about Osama bin Laden. 640 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:49,320 Speaker 1: You can emails directly. Our address is conspiracy at Discovery 641 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,920 Speaker 1: dot com. Oh and don't forget to order your CO 642 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: and telephone by heading on down to the street and 643 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,280 Speaker 1: waving your arms around. Please note, by listening to this podcast, 644 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 1: you have legally agreed to the in terms of service 645 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 1: anti your sport go and help hope. For more on 646 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 1: this topic, another unexplained phenomenon, visit test tube dot com 647 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: slash conspiracy stuff. You can also get in touch on 648 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: Twitter at the handle at conspiracy stuff.