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Speaker 4: Hey, Daniel, what exactly is your job title these days?

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Speaker 1: Well? I call myself a particle physicist.

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Speaker 4: All right, So then this question should be pretty easy

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Speaker 4: for you. Uh can you tell me what exactly a

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Speaker 4: particle is?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Boy, I wish I could.

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Speaker 4: What I mean you wish? Aren't you a particle physicist?

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Speaker 4: How can you not know what it is?

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess it's kind of just a made up

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Speaker 1: job title. I suppose.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you must be smashing something there in your

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Speaker 4: large accelerator.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe that's what we should have called it, the

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Speaker 1: large something collider, the large something something collider. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I voted for something collider face, but nobody else wanted that.

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Speaker 4: It's not too late. I am horehandmade cartoonist and the

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Speaker 4: creator of PhD comics.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a professor of physics at uc

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Speaker 1: Ermine and also a particle physicist whatever that means.

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Speaker 4: Maybe that should be the title. It should be a

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Speaker 4: whatever physicist technically that encompasses the whole universe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or I could just be a professor of whatever.

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Speaker 1: What are you teaching this here? Whatever?

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Speaker 4: And your house, you're probably a professor with that. I'm

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Speaker 4: sure you hear from your kids a lot whatever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I do have two teenagers, so I do get

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Speaker 1: that a lot.

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Speaker 4: You get a lot of something at home.

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Speaker 1: Not a whole lot of interest in physics, but a

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Speaker 1: whole lot interest in whatever.

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Speaker 4: Dad or a lot of non interest. I guess in whatever.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I can trick them into being interested in physics.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, how does that work? You pay them.

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Speaker 5: Now?

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Speaker 1: They asked me a question about something else they're honestly

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Speaker 1: curious about, and then I turn it into a question

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Speaker 1: about physics.

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Speaker 4: I guess everything at the end is physics, sort of right,

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Speaker 4: and so basically anything they ask you is a physics question.

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Speaker 4: When can I go to sleep, Well, depends on the

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Speaker 4: physics of the chemistry and your brain. Let's explore that.

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Speaker 4: Sit down, I'll give you a lecture, and that's a

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Speaker 4: good way to put them to sleep. It all works out.

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Speaker 4: But anyways, welcome to our podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain

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Speaker 4: the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we turn the whole universe into a physics

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Speaker 1: question and ask what is it, how does it work?

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Speaker 1: And can we figure it out without putting you to sleep.

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Speaker 1: We take your mind on a journey into the craziest

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Speaker 1: things that the universe contains, the craziest things that the

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Speaker 1: universe does, and the craziest, strangest things that the universe

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Speaker 1: might also be made out of.

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Speaker 4: It's right, We take you in a journey to the

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Speaker 4: big whatever, because the universe is full of what you know,

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Speaker 4: it's full of stuff, and there's also an ever there

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Speaker 4: because the universe is several billion years old and may

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Speaker 4: be around for trillions of more years.

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Speaker 1: That's right. There's not many things that we can say

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Speaker 1: with certainty in physics and philosophy, but we can say

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Speaker 1: that there is something out.

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Speaker 4: There and we're something. Right Also, aren't we something?

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Speaker 1: I'm something, You're something. The listener is something, and you're

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Speaker 1: definitely listening to something right now, Well, you're more, you're

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Speaker 1: more of a something else, Danny. I'm going to take

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Speaker 1: that in the entirely positive way that it was meant.

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Speaker 1: Definitely not nothing.

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Speaker 4: Something that stands out.

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Speaker 1: You mean, like a ZiT sort of rises above the skin.

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Speaker 4: That's something else. Daniel.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm happy to be the blackhead in this universe.

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Speaker 4: But it is a pretty wonderful universe, full of amazing

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Speaker 4: things to discover, and every day we're learning more and

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Speaker 4: more about it. We're looking out there into the stars

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Speaker 4: and looking with our microscopes at the smallest things in existence,

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Speaker 4: and we're giving names. We're not just taking names, we're

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Speaker 4: giving out names to these things.

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Speaker 1: And we're doing more than just trying to see what's

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Speaker 1: out there in the universe, We're trying to make sense

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Speaker 1: of it. We're trying to describe the crazy, bonkers universe

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Speaker 1: that we see out there in terms of ideas that

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Speaker 1: make sense in our heads. We have a small mental

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Speaker 1: toolbox of concepts that we are familiar with, and we

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Speaker 1: need to describe the whole crazy universe out there in

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Speaker 1: terms of these simple ideas.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, does that mean we have like little tiny hammers

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Speaker 4: inside of our brains and little tiny screwdrivers sort of?

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Speaker 1: I think that as kids grow up, they experience the

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Speaker 1: universe and they encounter new ideas and they sort of

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Speaker 1: become familiar with them, and then that things into your

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Speaker 1: brain is like the set of ideas that you are

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Speaker 1: comfortable with. You know a thing, what can a thing do?

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Speaker 1: What can a thing be? What are the rules of

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Speaker 1: a thing? And then lady, you try to describe other

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Speaker 1: stuff in terms of that kind of thing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's almost like we sort of experience two different

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Speaker 4: universes in a way, right, Like, as you grow up,

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Speaker 4: the universe seems to be one way. It seems to

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Speaker 4: follow sort of like Newtonian physics, things bouncing around, things

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Speaker 4: are hard, things are soft. Things fly through the air.

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Speaker 4: But then as you learn more and more about the universe,

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Speaker 4: as humanity has learned more and more about the universe,

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Speaker 4: things got more complex.

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Speaker 1: They certainly did. There are so many things out there

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Speaker 1: in the universe that we do not experience in childhood,

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Speaker 1: that we do not have intuitive concepts for, because they're

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Speaker 1: not the kind of thing that our brains evolved to

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Speaker 1: understand and not the kind of things that we learned

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Speaker 1: to deal with when we were children. And yet they

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Speaker 1: are out there and they are part of the real world,

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Speaker 1: and so we need to somehow extrapolate from the kinds

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Speaker 1: of concepts that we do understand out there into the

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Speaker 1: fuzzy weirdness that the universe is. And it makes me

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Speaker 1: wonder how other intelligent species think about the universe, if

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Speaker 1: they have different ways of interacting with the universe, or

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Speaker 1: if they're very very small or very very large or

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Speaker 1: very very fast, would they think that our understanding of

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Speaker 1: the universe is strange and alien the way we might

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Speaker 1: think theirs is.

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Speaker 4: WHOA, you just kind of blew my mind there right,

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Speaker 4: Like we usually assume aliens are the same size and

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Speaker 4: the same shape as we are. But maybe aliens are

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Speaker 4: you know, a tiny, microscopic, almost quantum size beings.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or maybe aliens can like taste photons and smell

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Speaker 1: electrons and have weird quantum interactions, and for them, quantum

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Speaker 1: mechanics is totally intuitive and they would find you know,

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Speaker 1: classical mechanics is like wow, that's fantastic and beautiful. What

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Speaker 1: an interesting simplification of big quantum mechanics. It's really fun.

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Speaker 1: And of course, you know, I can turn any question

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Speaker 1: into one about.

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Speaker 4: Aliens, yes, or maybe the aliens are just going like whatever.

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Speaker 1: That's actually what my kids complain about there, Like, Dad,

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Speaker 1: stop turning this into something about aliens. I didn't ask

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Speaker 1: about aliens.

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Speaker 4: Well, all teenagers act like aliens sometimes, or at least

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Speaker 4: they feel alienated.

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Speaker 1: Or they wonder if their parents are aliens.

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Speaker 4: You just seen a conehead, I guess. But it does

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Speaker 4: seem like we're sort of maybe stuck it away in

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Speaker 4: our childhood view of the universe sometimes, or or at

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Speaker 4: least it's hard to you know, kind of think about

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Speaker 4: the real universe because it is sort of complex and

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Speaker 4: not intuitive from a child's perspective. But then our language

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Speaker 4: and our way of thinking is sort of stuck, because

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Speaker 4: that's how we grew up.

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Speaker 1: And it's a real question whether or not we can

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Speaker 1: comprehend the true, chaotic, buzzing reality that's out there in

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Speaker 1: terms of the kinds of ideas that we have, or

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Speaker 1: do we need to somehow invent or discover a completely

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Speaker 1: new kind of concept which obviously was alien two hour thinking,

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Speaker 1: you know, just following the mathematics and then developing inventing

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Speaker 1: some new kind of intuition sort of as an adult

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Speaker 1: intellectual species that we need to grapple with the craziness

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Speaker 1: of reality.

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Speaker 4: I wonder if even our brains are capable, right or

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Speaker 4: equipped or designed to maybe grasp the true nature of

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Speaker 4: the universe. You know, it could be that, you know,

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Speaker 4: like sort of like dogs can't do cocklus, maybe we

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Speaker 4: really understand the define mathematics at the core of reality.

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Speaker 1: Hey, I don't like the way you're talking about my

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Speaker 1: dog there, man, I mean, don't put limits on my dog's.

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Speaker 4: A dog can do coculus or at least algebra.

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Speaker 1: Come on, you can count treats. I'm pretty sure.

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Speaker 4: Oh, there you go. I'm sure you can calculate the

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Speaker 4: rate of treats too. So that's sort of like cocklus.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you're right, we don't know if the human

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Speaker 1: brain is capable of grasping the true nature of reality.

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Speaker 1: Certainly dogs are not, as much as we love them,

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Speaker 1: and so then there's no guarantee that we are infinitely

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Speaker 1: intelligent and of understanding. If superintelligent aliens come to Earth

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Speaker 1: and want to explain physics to us, could we even

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Speaker 1: understand it? Could we grocket even if they knew how

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Speaker 1: to speak our language and our mathematics and our physics.

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Speaker 1: Would we fail that class?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? Or maybe they would have to like trick us

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Speaker 4: into understanding or liking or asking the right questions about physics.

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Speaker 1: You know, you think we'd just be like whatever, aliens,

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Speaker 1: we don't want to hear it.

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Speaker 4: Just give me a headache, man, I.

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Speaker 1: Would sign up for that headache, one hundred percent. I

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Speaker 1: would go to that class.

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Speaker 4: What if it was a constant headache, like twenty four

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Speaker 4: to seven headache?

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Speaker 1: Man, have you tried quantum mechanics? That's basically a twenty

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Speaker 1: four seven headache? I feel like that's humanity trying to

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Speaker 1: absorb something which is truly alien, which is far from

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Speaker 1: our experience, something we have never experienced. On the early Savannah,

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Speaker 1: something we didn't need to know to be able to

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Speaker 1: hunt mammoth, and yet we are somehow beginning to grapple

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Speaker 1: with it. We are getting a sort of mathematical fluency

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Speaker 1: with a truly alien concept.

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Speaker 4: We'll just need to require the aliens to bring espirin

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Speaker 4: at least give us a HND. But it is interesting

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Speaker 4: to try to, you know, understand these fundamental concepts about

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Speaker 4: the universe. And there is one concept out there that

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Speaker 4: may seem pretty easy to understand, but actually there is

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Speaker 4: a lot of uncertainty about it. Something very basic about

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Speaker 4: the universe.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And if you ask people whose job it

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Speaker 1: is to understand this stuff, you get lots of very

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Speaker 1: different answer to my surprise.

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Speaker 4: So to the end the podcast, we'll be tackling the

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Speaker 4: question what is a particle? And just to be clear

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Speaker 4: that in your official title is particle physicists. So you know,

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Speaker 4: first of all, it's shocking that you don't know, And

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Speaker 4: second of all, if we were going to ask somebody,

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Speaker 4: we should ask you. You know, we have one of

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Speaker 4: the leading experts in the field here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I suppose you could say that a particle

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Speaker 1: physicist is somebody who tries to understand what particles are,

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Speaker 1: not somebody who already knows the answers right, because remember

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Speaker 1: science is a journey. You ask somebody who's an expert

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Speaker 1: in dinosaurs, they don't know everything about dinosaurs. Maybe they

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Speaker 1: know everything that humans know about dinosaurs, but they don't

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Speaker 1: already have all the answers right.

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Speaker 4: Right. When I hire a plumber, I don't really want

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Speaker 4: someone who knows plumbing. I just want someone who comes

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Speaker 4: in to learn about plumbing.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's why you don't hire a physicist to do

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Speaker 1: your plumbing, because they'll be like, Oh, I have this

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Speaker 1: great R and D project. I'm curious this new theoretical

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Speaker 1: idea for plumbing will work in your toilet.

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Speaker 4: That's right. I'm going to build a water collider inside

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Speaker 4: your walls and we'll see what happens.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm just putting a small black hole under your

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Speaker 1: toilet and it's just going to suck everything away.

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Speaker 4: That would be a pretty green solution. It would conserve

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Speaker 4: water for sure.

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Speaker 1: Whether dark matter can go into a black hole.

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Speaker 4: Oh man, that's next level physics right there, or lower

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Speaker 4: level physics.

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Speaker 1: But you know, particle physicists are people who are curious

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Speaker 1: about these questions what is the universe made out of

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Speaker 1: at its most fundamental level, And it's something we've made

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Speaker 1: a lot of progress thinking about in the last one

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Speaker 1: hundred years or so, but there's a shocking diversity of answers,

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Speaker 1: even among particle physicists.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, something as simple of a world as a particle

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Speaker 4: can have many different meanings, and in physics it can

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Speaker 4: mean very different things. So, as usual, we were wondering

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Speaker 4: how many people out there had thought about this very

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Speaker 4: basic question what is a particle? And whether or not

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Speaker 4: they have a true answer to it.

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Speaker 1: So thank you very much for everybody who is willing

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Speaker 1: to answer random questions for the podcast. It's some great

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Speaker 1: help to us and we love hearing your voice and

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Speaker 1: having you all out there participate. It makes us feel

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Speaker 1: a little bit like this is a conversation, So please,

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Speaker 1: if you'd like to participate, don't be shy. Write to

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Speaker 1: us two questions at Danielanjorge dot com.

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Speaker 4: So think about it for a second, what do you

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Speaker 4: think is a particle? Here's what people had to say.

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Speaker 6: Well, Daniel and Hora, I think I learned this one

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Speaker 6: from you, that a particle is a certain excitation of

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Speaker 6: a certain field I'll leave it at that.

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Speaker 5: To me, a particle is the smallest, the screte thing

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Speaker 5: that you can poke where we don't yet know how

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Speaker 5: to smash it in smaller bits.

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Speaker 7: My understanding is that a particle is just an excitation

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Speaker 7: in a quantum field, and from nunderstand when it reaches

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Speaker 7: a certain energy level ow many electronles that in that field,

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Speaker 7: that causes a particle to just appear as a consequence

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Speaker 7: of the energy in the field.

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Speaker 1: It's just the basic unit for that has of matter

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Speaker 1: and energy.

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Speaker 8: We have different definitions based on how we're talking about

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Speaker 8: what a particle is. Maybe talking about a particle from

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Speaker 8: the perspective of an engineer building a particle collider, you

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Speaker 8: might have a certain definition. If you're talking about it

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Speaker 8: in a theoretical physics sort of high minded way, you

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Speaker 8: might have a slightly different definition. I think it's something

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Speaker 8: that we're still grappling with because it's not something that

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Speaker 8: we have an intuitive understanding of. So I think there's

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Speaker 8: a lot lot of different ideas and a lot of

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Speaker 8: different ways to try and make analogies that we can

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Speaker 8: understand to sort of encompass this concept of particle.

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Speaker 9: A particle is that portion of the standard model, divided

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Speaker 9: into quantized pieces which may or may not be fundamental.

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Speaker 9: They may be thought of as the building blocks of

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Speaker 9: the universe, and they may be also thought of as perturbations, wiggles,

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Speaker 9: or vibrations of their concomitant field.

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Speaker 10: I generally use the word particle to describe small bits

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Speaker 10: of stuff, and it doesn't just mean an atom. You

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Speaker 10: can even say, like a quark is a particle, and

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Speaker 10: of course they're made up of other things. Those two

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Speaker 10: are particles. So I guess the word particle just means

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Speaker 10: a bit of something, the smallest bit of something you

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Speaker 10: could possibly.

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Speaker 4: Have a right. I got a little existential there and

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Speaker 4: a little basic. Some people were, like, a particle, it's

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Speaker 4: just a particle, right, It's like the basic unit of stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a really fascinating question, and you hear

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Speaker 1: in these answers a lot of different ideas.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. Some people say it's like an excitation in

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Speaker 4: a quantum field, and some people say it's just like

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Speaker 4: the smallest thing you can poke at. Nobody said it

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Speaker 4: was Daniel Job.

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Speaker 1: Nobody said, why are you asking me?

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Speaker 4: If you're asking me, we're in trouble.

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Speaker 1: It's like if your dentist asks you what am I

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Speaker 1: supposed to do next?

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Speaker 4: At least nobody said something or whatever.

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Speaker 1: It's not nothing.

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Speaker 4: Oh there you go. Maybe it's not nothing. Is that

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Speaker 4: one of the leading theories.

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Speaker 1: That's not an explanation though, that's just like ruling out

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Speaker 1: other exploitations.

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Speaker 4: Maybe that is the answer, Daniel.

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Speaker 1: That's like when you ask your teenager who dent to

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Speaker 1: the car and they say, I don't know, but it

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Speaker 1: wasn't me. That's not an answer.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so let's dig into this. It's almost almost like

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Speaker 4: a philosophical question, right, Daniel, Like what is a particle?

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Speaker 4: Or maybe more like a semantic question, you know, about

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Speaker 4: the meaning of the word, or is this actual like

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Speaker 4: physics questions, like we don't even have math for it.

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Speaker 1: I think it's all of the above. It's definitely an

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Speaker 1: interesting lesson in history how we came up with this

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Speaker 1: concept of a particle. What it meant to people through

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Speaker 1: time is also a philosophical question, you know, if you

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Speaker 1: could describe the universe in terms of particles versus fields

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Speaker 1: versus something else, which is the true stuff of the universe.

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Speaker 1: But it's also really a physics question, you know, we

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Speaker 1: are trying to understand the universe at its most basic level.

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Speaker 1: What is the fundamental element of the universe. Some things

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Speaker 1: are fundamental, they are inherent properties of the universe, and

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Speaker 1: other things like ice cream cones, are emergent. They arise

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Speaker 1: out of the complex interactions of other stuff. So it's

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Speaker 1: really sort of the heart of particle physics is understanding

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Speaker 1: the very nature of the universe. So I think it

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Speaker 1: really is a physical question as well.

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Speaker 4: It's a it's a party, I mean right there in

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Speaker 4: the name particle.

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Speaker 1: Wow, I never made that connection. My whole job is

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Speaker 1: just a party.

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Speaker 4: You go, you're a party animal, a professional party animal.

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Speaker 1: Professional party Yeah. And if you have had a bunch

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Speaker 1: of particle physicists at your party, you know that's true.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you would know it's not really a party. But anyways,

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Speaker 4: let's dig into this kind of deep question, Daniel, I

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Speaker 4: guess how would you even start to tackle this question?

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Speaker 1: I think a good way to begin is to recognize

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Speaker 1: that particles are really at the heart of what we

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Speaker 1: mean by the stuff around us. It's a huge insight

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Speaker 1: already to say that the things that are around us,

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Speaker 1: the ice cream cone, the lava, the kittens, whatever you

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Speaker 1: ate for lunch. All of this stuff is made out

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Speaker 1: of smaller pieces. Right, So the fact that you had

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Speaker 1: a cheese sandwich for lunch is not because that cheese

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Speaker 1: sandwich is made out of like cheese bits and sandwich bits.

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Speaker 1: It's all made out of the same stuff, right. There's

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Speaker 1: no cheese sandwichiness to the universe. There's no lavainess to

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Speaker 1: the universe. That's all made out of the same fundamental pieces.

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Speaker 1: And so when you take the universe part, you discover

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Speaker 1: this really deep and fascinating fact that most of the

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Speaker 1: qualities of the things around you are determined by the

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Speaker 1: smaller bits they're made out of, and not like the

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Speaker 1: identity of those bits, but how those bits.

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Speaker 4: Are arranged, right, But that that's sort of a modern

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Speaker 4: view of the universe, right, I mean, when we started

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Speaker 4: back in ancient times, you know, we noticed, I think

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Speaker 4: we noticed that you can break stuff apart, right, like

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Speaker 4: you can break a person apart. You can take a

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Speaker 4: rock and smash it into smaller and smaller bits. But

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Speaker 4: it probably our limitation was that if you break a

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Speaker 4: rock into smaller bits, eventually you just get tiny little

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Speaker 4: rocks or tiny little pieces of people. But there's sort

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Speaker 4: of no way for us to know, like, oh, this

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Speaker 4: rock stuff is different than this plant stuff.

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Speaker 1: Right, certainly in ancient times, but there was this concept

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Speaker 1: that maybe there are a few basic elements. You know,

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Speaker 1: they thought it was air, wind, fire, and water initially.

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Speaker 1: But this idea that maybe everything around us was made

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Speaker 1: of basic ingredients mixed together in different ways. That is

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Speaker 1: an ancient idea. Although you know, every time you're giving

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Speaker 1: credit to the Greeks for some ancient idea that sounds

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Speaker 1: very modern and insightful, you got to remember they had

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Speaker 1: lots of other crazy ancient ideas that we never forget

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Speaker 1: because they're so far off that we.

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Speaker 4: Ignore them, right right, I'm well aware of your anti Grecianism.

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Speaker 4: You're kind of down on the Greeks. You think they

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Speaker 4: were just like shooting ideas everywhere, and some of them

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Speaker 4: stuck on the wall.

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Speaker 1: I mean, have you read Greek philosophy, and basically that's

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Speaker 1: exactly what they did. They sent around in robes, eating

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Speaker 1: olives and throwing ideas against them wall.

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Speaker 4: Sounds like a great way to do things.

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Speaker 1: It is a great way to do things, and it's

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Speaker 1: wonderful that people were thinking so deeply a long time ago.

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Speaker 1: The problem is they didn't really have ways to test

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Speaker 1: these ideas until very very recently. So for a long

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Speaker 1: time the idea has just sort of floated out there

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Speaker 1: in ideas space. But more recently we have actually gained

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Speaker 1: insights about the universe by doing experiments. And it was

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Speaker 1: something like one hundred and fifty years ago that the

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Speaker 1: concept of a particle really came together and it emerged

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Speaker 1: out of experiments that people were doing.

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Speaker 7: Hmm.

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Speaker 4: Interesting, So was this before or after the idea of

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Speaker 4: the atom, Like, do we have an idea of what

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Speaker 4: an atom was, is the smallest thing you can kind

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Speaker 4: of break stuff apart into, before the idea of a

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Speaker 4: particle or did we think about particles before atoms?

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Speaker 1: We thought about atoms first, I mean atoms also come

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Speaker 1: from the Greeks, right, Democratus had the idea of atoms,

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Speaker 1: and then later on in chemistry we noticed that there

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00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,159
Speaker 1: were these integer quantities in chemical equations. So people had

442
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 1: this concept that maybe things were made out of atoms,

443
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,080
Speaker 1: but we didn't really know how those atoms worked. You know,

444
00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,919
Speaker 1: what was inside the atom, what was the structure of

445
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,880
Speaker 1: the atom itself, what made this element different from that element?

446
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 1: And that didn't come about until the discovery of the

447
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 1: electron in the late eighteen hundreds. This is JJ Thompson

448
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,440
Speaker 1: who was playing around with cathode rays, these strange glowing

449
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,359
Speaker 1: rays inside these tubes where they had pumped out most

450
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 1: of the gas.

451
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,880
Speaker 4: Hmmm. Interesting. So you're saying that, I guess we tried

452
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 4: bringing down rocks as small as we could, and at

453
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 4: some point with chemistry you get to the idea of like,

454
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 4: maybe there's this small as possible little bit of stuff.

455
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:03,719
Speaker 4: So we knew about atoms, but maybe we thought that,

456
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:05,919
Speaker 4: you know, there was a carbon atom and that was

457
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,719
Speaker 4: different than a hydrogen atom, and that was different than

458
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:10,959
Speaker 4: an oxygen atom, right, Like that's kind of where we

459
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 4: were before we thought about things smaller than an atom exactly.

460
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 1: And it's a reductive approach, And so we wonder, like, well,

461
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 1: what makes a carbon atom different from an oxygen atom?

462
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 1: Is that just it is that like the fundamental element

463
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 1: of the universe. It's like the carbon inis and the

464
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 1: oxygen niss or is there some quality to carbon that

465
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 1: makes it carbonate and a different quality that makes it

466
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 1: oxygen e? Right? And so we wonder, like, is that

467
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 1: come out of the internal structure? Are there the same

468
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: bits inside or arranged in different ways. Can we explain

469
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 1: them in terms of another deeper layer of reality. And

470
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 1: so that's of course the goal of particle physics, to

471
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 1: keep tearing things apart and understanding the relationship between these

472
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 1: things and what explains their nature. What what makes carbon carbonine?

473
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 1: What makes oxygen oxygen? E?

474
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,159
Speaker 4: Right? Right? Because I guess it could have been that

475
00:22:58,200 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 4: could have been the answer, right, like we could have

476
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 4: in the universe where carbon was one of the fundamental

477
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 4: particles and oxygen was one of the fundamental you know,

478
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 4: units of the universe, right, Like, it could have been that.

479
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,719
Speaker 4: But you're saying that once we discovered the electron, then

480
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 4: we started to take apart the atoms.

481
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: In theory, Yes, and it could have even have been

482
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 1: possible at a higher level, you know, you're talking about elements,

483
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,360
Speaker 1: But it could have been that, you know, cheese, for example,

484
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 1: it was made out of some fundamental cheese object and

485
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 1: couldn't be divided into smaller things.

486
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 4: Cheese is pretty fundamental, at least to my diet.

487
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 1: But yeah, it could have been that carbon was just

488
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: one thing in the universe and oxygen was another thing.

489
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 1: But if that were true, some physicists would wonder, like,

490
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 1: what's the relationship between carbon and oxygen? Why are there

491
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,959
Speaker 1: two things? Why can't I express them in terms of

492
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 1: just one fundamental thing? So there will always be people

493
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 1: pushing at that boundary and wondering if there's a deeper explanation.

494
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: But you're right, we don't know. And that's sort of

495
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 1: where we are today in particle physics. We have a

496
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: few objects we think maybe are fundamental, and we wonder

497
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 1: about their relationships and if there is a deeper explanation.

498
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 4: Right, Because we eventually broke apart the item. We discovered

499
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,679
Speaker 4: the electrons and the protons, and then the protons can

500
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 4: be broken into quarks and the quarks can be broken

501
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 4: into cheese.

502
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 1: Right, I hope that we discover some new quantum property

503
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: and we call it cheese. We've called them flavor and color, Right,

504
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 1: it'll be just as inappropriate.

505
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I was just kidding. But really we were

506
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 4: down to like the quark level, right as far as

507
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 4: we know. When you try to break stuff down to

508
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 4: the smallest level, we're down to quarks and electrons and

509
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 4: like their cousins in the periodic table of the standard model.

510
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, and all of this is just like a hierarchy

511
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: of our understanding. It doesn't really define what we're talking about.

512
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: Like we're talking about an electron, we're talking about quarks.

513
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 1: We haven't really specified, like what is that thing? You know,

514
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 1: it's a word, we're saying it's part of the atom,

515
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: But what do we mean is going on inside the atom?

516
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: What is the nature of these things? Right?

517
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 4: I mean, that's basically the question we're asking today is

518
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 4: what is exactly an electron and what exactly as a

519
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 4: quirk because we as far as we know, you can't

520
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 4: break those down into smaller little bits, right.

521
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 1: And the cool thing is, you can make a lot

522
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 1: of progress doing particle physics without knowing the answer to

523
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: that question. You can talk about the relationships between these things.

524
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 1: You can build one thing out of other things without

525
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: even really understanding what it is you're talking about. And

526
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: that's sort of my job is to try to make

527
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: progress even though we don't understand like the core fundamentals,

528
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 1: the true foundation of the nature of reality right.

529
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 4: Right, because we've talked about this in the podcast before.

530
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 4: How there's this kind of progression, right, like to do

531
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 4: engineering at least, like to build a building, you don't

532
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,199
Speaker 4: really need to know chemistry, and to do chemistry, you

533
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 4: don't really need to, you know, understand quantum particles and so,

534
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 4: and to put together an atom, you don't really sort

535
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 4: of need to know what is exactly a particle in

536
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 4: a mathematical sense. But your job is to go as

537
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 4: deep as you can and break that down until you like,

538
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 4: nobody can ever break it down anymore.

539
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's true that you don't need, for example,

540
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 1: to understand quantum gravity to predict the path of hurricanes.

541
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: And I'm grateful that the world works this way in

542
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: sort of layers of emergent theories, so you don't need

543
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: to know how the universe began order to make chicken soup,

544
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: for example. But we're sort of clueless at another level

545
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: more than just like the engineers not understanding how the

546
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 1: quarks work. We're dealing with quarks and we still don't

547
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: really know what they are. And we have these mathematical

548
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,239
Speaker 1: tools that we can use to predict what they're going

549
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: to do, but they are so strange and so counter

550
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 1: to our intuition that we can't really answer the question, like,

551
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: what is this thing we're talking about? We have the

552
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: math that describes it but we don't have like an

553
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 1: intuitive grasp of it.

554
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,959
Speaker 4: So then that's what you mean by particle. When we're

555
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 4: asking what is a particle, we're really asking what is

556
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 4: a quark? And what is an electro?

557
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: Exactly? What is this thing we're talking about? What does

558
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: it mean? What is its fundamental nature? And more than that,

559
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 1: like what makes a quark different from an electron the

560
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: way you were talking about like maybe carbon could just

561
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: be different from oxygen. It could just be two fundamental

562
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: elements of the universe. Why is a quark different from

563
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: an electron? Like what makes them different?

564
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 4: One of them has more cheese, obviously. All right, let's

565
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 4: get into possible ideas for what a particle could be,

566
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 4: and as always, we'll talk about what does it all mean? Man,

567
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 4: So let's get into that, But first let's take a

568
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 4: quick break.

569
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,800
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619
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620
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621
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625
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626
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627
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636
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Speaker 4: All right, we are asking fundamental questions here on the

637
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 4: podcast today, Daniel, we're asking what exactly is a particle?

638
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 4: I mean, we know that matter can be broken down

639
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 4: into atoms, and atoms can be broken down into electrons

640
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 4: and quarks, But what exactly is an electron or a quark.

641
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 4: That's a difficult question to answer.

642
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: It is. And when you'd say particle, most people probably

643
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: imagine like a tiny little dot of matter, like the

644
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: smallest bit of stuff. And you heard some of the

645
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: listeners answering in that way, and that's very convenient, but

646
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: it's sort of an extrapolation of an intuitive idea you

647
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: had that like, rocks are made out of small rocks,

648
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: and those rocks are made out of even smaller rocks,

649
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: and when you get down to it, the universe is

650
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: basically a bunch of super tiny little rocks.

651
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 4: It does rock the universe. It's a little cheesy sometimes,

652
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 4: but it kind.

653
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: Of rocks it rocks my world, for sure, But we

654
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: know that that's not a completely accurate picture because when

655
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: you get down to the quantum level, the rules do change.

656
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: The rules for rocks are the classical rules. You know,

657
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: the things move through the universe smoothly and continuously, that

658
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: they they follow rules of where you used to If

659
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: something is here and then later it's there, it went

660
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: from here to there. We also know that the quantum particles,

661
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: the super tiniest little rocks in the universe, don't follow

662
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: those rules. So we need like a new concept for

663
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: what's going on down there at the very smallest level.

664
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: We can't just say their little tiny.

665
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 4: Rocks, right because like one kind of physics is good

666
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 4: for keeping track of rocks, that's Newtonian physics. But at

667
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 4: the smallest level, things get quantum, things get kind of fuzzy,

668
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 4: and then they're more accurately represented by waves, right.

669
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we have these equations, these wave equations, which

670
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: seem to control what happened to these little objects, these

671
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: little particles, And we can solve those wave equations and

672
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: they predict with a probability where these particles are likely

673
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,959
Speaker 1: to go. But already we're presented with a confusion, like, well,

674
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: are we talking about these things as a wave as

675
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: a particle? Do I sometimes talk about them as a particle,

676
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: sometimes talk about them as a wave. And here are

677
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: lots of people saying that these o waves most of

678
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: the time, but then when you look at them, they

679
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: become particles. Right, that's a common picture. But I think

680
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: that that's not really an accurate way to think about it.

681
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: I think more accurate is to think that these objects

682
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: are something new and different. They are neither particles nor waves,

683
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: though they can sometimes be described in analogy by either

684
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: of those pictures.

685
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 4: Interesting because I always thought about it them as you know,

686
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 4: there are waves that sort of looked like particles from Afar.

687
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 4: If you get down to the smallest level, they look

688
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 4: like a wave, but if you used to just kind

689
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 4: of pull back, they look more like a little bit

690
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 4: of stuff moving around.

691
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: Except that sometimes they look like waves. Even from Afar.

692
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: You know, you can see interference effects, which are macroscopic effects.

693
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: The double slit experiment shows you that particles passing through

694
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: those slits interfere with themselves and create these like macroscopic effects,

695
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: the interference patterns on the screen. So these wavel like

696
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: effects can also influence you know, real visible stuff.

697
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 4: Okay, so then that's one definition of a particle is

698
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 4: that it's a collapse wave or like a wave when

699
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 4: you look at it becomes a particle.

700
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: Kind of This is a common attempt to sort of

701
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,919
Speaker 1: weave together this idea that maybe a particles a wave

702
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: and sometimes it acts like a particle when you look

703
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: at it. Right. The problem, of course, is that we

704
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: don't really know what it means to say you look

705
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: at it. We've had a few podcasts on this topic

706
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: of the quantum mechanics measurement problem, like what does it

707
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: mean to look at something and collapse its wave function?

708
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 1: Why when an electron is flying along through the universe

709
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: does the universe suddenly decide, Okay, we're going to take

710
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: on particle like little mini rock like properties and decide

711
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: now where the electron actually is. Whereas a minute ago

712
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 1: we were happy having it being a quantum wave and

713
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: having uncertainty to it. What makes the universe decide to

714
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 1: draw from this random probability distribution and decide where the

715
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: electron is so that you can look at it with

716
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 1: your experiment.

717
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 4: It sounds to me kind of like what's in your head.

718
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 4: Is that you're thinking that a particle is something that

719
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 4: has like a definite location and boundary and velocity and

720
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 4: like you know where it is. It's like a little

721
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,720
Speaker 4: rock that's just sitting on your desk. But a quantum

722
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 4: wave is different than that. Like, a quantum wave is

723
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 4: not like a little rock, right, Like it's that boundary

724
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 4: between uncertainty and certainty that maybe you think the definition

725
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 4: of a particle is.

726
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: That's a good way to put it. And the reason

727
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: is that we can't see uncertainty in that way. We

728
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: can't measure the quantum wave function directly. We can't see

729
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 1: a photon as in two states at the same time.

730
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: We don't observe that. Ever, our experiments they count particles.

731
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: That's why particles are such a compelling concept. It's because

732
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 1: it's what we see in our experiments. We can do

733
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: single photon experiments where we see a one photon fly

734
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: across the room and hit us screen. We never see

735
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: a photon like in two possible states at once. That's

736
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: only like what the universe does when it's calculating what

737
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: might happen in your experiment. It's nothing we actually observe.

738
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: That's why we use the word particle when we talk

739
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: about things we actually observe, because that's all we can observe.

740
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 1: We can't see those waves directly.

741
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 4: I see what you're saying. You're saying that maybe one

742
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 4: possible definition of the word particle is it's what happens

743
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 4: when you sample a quantum wave function. Right. It starts

744
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 4: after the particle is seen or interacts with something else

745
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 4: before that. It's not a particle.

746
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: That's a common idea and it's compelling, but it's deeply,

747
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: deeply flawed, right, because you don't have a clear definition

748
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: for what it means to look at it or to

749
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: sample it. You know, like we talked about before, if

750
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: you're going to poke this electron with your finger, then

751
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: you know it has a wave function. Maybe it's here

752
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: and gets poked by your finger, or maybe it's over

753
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,479
Speaker 1: there and it doesn't get poked. But when you touch

754
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: it with your finger, the universe has to decide. But

755
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,760
Speaker 1: how does that happen? Because in the end, your finger

756
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 1: is also made out of quantum particles, right, It's just

757
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 1: made out of other electrons and quarks, So why can't

758
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: it just interact in an uncertain way with that electron

759
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 1: and leave things uncertain. That's what point does your finger

760
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: become a classical object that forces the universe to collapse

761
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: the wave function? And what point can it stay uncollapsed?

762
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,919
Speaker 1: That's not defined. It's not specified, and that's what makes

763
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: that picture totally unsatisfactory.

764
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 4: And it also kind of leads you to the problem

765
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 4: of like, what is it before before it collapsed? Or

766
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 4: what is it before you measured it? Right, it's like

767
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 4: a pre particle almost, which that doesn't help you.

768
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, what is that thing that's flying through the universe? Like?

769
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: Is the wave function a real physical thing? Is it

770
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: just a calculation that's in our minds that we use

771
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: to predict these things? Is the universe doing that calculation

772
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: somewhere in its internal computer? Like what's going on?

773
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 4: What's going on? Man?

774
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 5: All right?

775
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 4: So that's kind of one idea, and you're saying it's

776
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 4: kind of flawed because it kind of doesn't help you.

777
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 4: But then maybe what if I just think of a

778
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 4: particle as that wave, right, Like what iFly I think

779
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 4: of the particle as just an excitation of a quantum field.

780
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: So the way the history went was that Scherninger develops

781
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: his wave equation as a way to describe what's going

782
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: on with these particles, and it worked amazingly. I love.

783
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: You know, he just wrote this thing down and he

784
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: had no real justification for it, you know, like it

785
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: might have worked, and then it just kind of did,

786
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: like wow, and predicted experiments. That's cool, But it turned

787
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,320
Speaker 1: out to be very hard to use because it really

788
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 1: just describes one particle flying through the universe, and you know,

789
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 1: the universe is filled with particles, and so as soon

790
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: as you have like multiple particles three four, ten, forty

791
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: seven particles, it's basically hopeless. You know, you can't use

792
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 1: the short inter equation to solve any realistic problem. So

793
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,399
Speaker 1: then the mathematical and physical geniuses in the first part

794
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 1: of the last century developed this new idea of a field, right,

795
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: they had this idea of a field from classical physics.

796
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: You know, electromagnetic fields already existed, and they say, well,

797
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: what if there are these quantum fields, and instead of

798
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: describing one electron over here as one short inner wave

799
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: and that electron over there is another shortener wave, we

800
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: unify it into a big picture of an electron field,

801
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: and both electrons are just wiggles in that field. And

802
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 1: then we could just like you know, think about the

803
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: motion of that field rather than the motion of individual electrons.

804
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,919
Speaker 4: I see, Like before we thought of maybe electrons as

805
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 4: like separate magnets, like there's one magnet over here, there's

806
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 4: another magnet over there. But another way to think about

807
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 4: them together is like they're all part of the same magnet, right,

808
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 4: or they're all part of the same magnetic field of

809
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 4: the universe.

810
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's a really powerful idea, not just because

811
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: it's helpful, like it lets you do calculations you otherwise

812
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: couldn't do. The Shirtinger equation, for example, describes how a

813
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: particle moves through the universe. It's very difficult to describe

814
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: the creation or the annihilation of particles, but we know

815
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 1: that happens all the time when you use fields. However,

816
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: it's no big deal, Like you can create a particle,

817
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 1: just excite the field another step. It's just like take

818
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: the string and sprum it harder. Or you can describe

819
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: the destruction of particles when the field relaxes and releases

820
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: that energy into like another field. So things that were

821
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: hard now become natural.

822
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 4: Right, And so in this view, the universe is filled

823
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 4: with a field, and a particle is really just like

824
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 4: a little like excitation in that field, like a little

825
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 4: like a blip in it almost, And so we're all

826
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 4: just made out of blips.

827
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, and don't underestimate the physical implications of that. It

828
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 1: means that particle are not the fundamental element of the

829
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: universe we're talking before about like fundamental versus emergent, right,

830
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 1: Like ice cream cones are not a fundamental property of

831
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: the universe. You could expect there to be a universe

832
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 1: where there are no ice cream cones, and maybe there

833
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 1: won't be in the future, sorry to say. In that

834
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: same sense, this means that particles in this view are

835
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: not fundamental to the universe. They just like sort of

836
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: are a description of how fields wiggle. The fields are

837
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: the real fundamental building blocks of the universe, and what

838
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 1: the universe is is space filled with quantum fields, and

839
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: those fields wiggle in certain ways that we call particles.

840
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 4: Yeah. Like it's almost like we were looking at the

841
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,399
Speaker 4: tale of an elephant and we didn't know that. Really

842
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 4: what's important is that there's a whole elephant in front

843
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 4: of us.

844
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's really beautiful. As you get into the

845
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: mathematics of quantum fields, you see so many symmetries and

846
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: patterns emerge that just strike you as like, wow, I'm

847
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: reading the truth about the universe. We talked in a

848
00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: recent podcast episode about a really subtle concept, gauge symmetry,

849
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: which talks about like how these fields are related to

850
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: each other. You can like rotate these fields so that

851
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: one turns into another one, and you see these symmetries

852
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 1: exist in our universe, and they're the reasons for things

853
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: like why is the electric charge conserved Because there's a

854
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:19,360
Speaker 1: symmetry in the photons field? It requires photons to exist

855
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: and requires electromagnetism. So it really like feels like you're

856
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,879
Speaker 1: reading the deep truth of the universe when you get

857
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 1: immersed in quantum field theory.

858
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 4: But I guess the basic idea is to define a

859
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,760
Speaker 4: particle as just a little blip in the field, right,

860
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 4: and it's really the field that kind of puts together

861
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 4: the things in the universe.

862
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can have fields that exist without having any

863
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: particles in them. And then a particle, as you say,

864
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: is like you start with a vacuum and you put

865
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 1: energy into it and it excites, and that's what a

866
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: particle is. And it's not just that it's much more

867
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 1: mathematically handy to do these calculations. It also sort of

868
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 1: solves a really deep problem which you alluded to earlier.

869
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: Somebody asked Freeman Dys in the Base miss Physicist once

870
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 1: what he thought was the greatest accomplishment in physics in

871
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 1: the last fifty years, and he said that it was

872
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 1: quantum field theory being able to explain why all electrons

873
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: are the same. And you were saying earlier, like, you

874
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: can think of electrons as like just different magnets. But

875
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 1: if you think about that, why are all electrons the same?

876
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 1: If electrons are just different particles, why do they all

877
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: have the same mass? And quantum field theory it answers

878
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 1: that because it says, well, there aren't a bunch of

879
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: different electrons, there's just really one electron. It's just all

880
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 1: the same of excitation in the same field. There's only

881
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 1: just one electron field in the universe.

882
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 4: But how does that end answer the question like why

883
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 4: is this blip in this field the same as the

884
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 4: blip in the field over there?

885
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: Because the field only knows how to blip in a

886
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: certain way. It's a quantum field, right, it can blip

887
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: once or twice or three times. It can't blimp like

888
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 1: one point two five times, right, that's just what the

889
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,919
Speaker 1: field knows how to do. The field itself has a mass.

890
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: It gets that mass from the Higgs boson, and it

891
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,359
Speaker 1: gets the same mass over here as it gets over there,

892
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 1: and it gets an alpha centauri. And so the single

893
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: field that fills the universe, that controls all of the electrons.

894
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 4: So then I guess what's wrong with this picture of

895
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 4: a particle? Is there anything wrong with this bit of

896
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 4: looking at particles? It's just excitations in a field.

897
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 1: So if you ask particle physicists what's more fundamental a

898
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: field or a particle, A lot of them say the

899
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 1: fields are that this is sort of prevailing view. But

900
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: there's sort of a stubborn minority that say no, no, no.

901
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,280
Speaker 1: Fields are just the thing we used to calculate. Mima

902
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: Ar Kani Hahmed, who's a famous physicist at the Institute

903
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: for Advanced Study in Princeton and widely considered like one

904
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: of the smartest dudes around, he said, the fields are

905
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 1: just a convenient fiction. And the thing is that we

906
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 1: don't see fields directly, right. Particles are the things that

907
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 1: we see, they are the things that we observe in

908
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: our experiments of the things we smash together in our colliders.

909
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: Fields are what we use to do calculations, but like

910
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: are they real? The particles themselves are the things that

911
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: we see that we can count that we can interact.

912
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 4: With, right, Like, like is it a thing or is

913
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 4: it just a like a I guess the consequence of

914
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 4: how the universe works, like the math of the universe.

915
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, just because we have a mathematical description of how

916
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: things work doesn't mean that it's real. Right, what's real

917
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 1: is what we see in our experiments, and those are particles,

918
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 1: and we see how particles bounce off each other, and

919
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: we see how particles interact with each other. And you

920
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: can view the whole system of the universe mathematically without

921
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 1: using fields, Like you can say there are no fields.

922
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: There are just particles and particles when they interact with

923
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: each other, they don't use fields. They use virtual particles.

924
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 1: So like when electrons push against each other, what's happening

925
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: is they're exchanging photons. So you can replace fields with

926
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 1: just like sums over infinite virtual particles, and it's mathematically

927
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: totally equivalent. You can do like all the same calculations

928
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 1: using virtual particles. So like our fields just a way

929
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: to express zillions of virtual particles all flying around, or

930
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: our particles just like vibrations in these fields, they're fundamentally

931
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: mathematically equivalent. And it's a bit of a philosophical question,

932
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 1: which is the right picture of the universe?

933
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 4: I see you're saying, like, maybe thinking of a particle

934
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 4: or defining a particle as an excitation in a field

935
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 4: may not be accurate because maybe fields don't exist, so

936
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 4: and so maybe it doesn't make sense for something to

937
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 4: be of an expectation of something that doesn't exist, and

938
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 4: that maybe particles are just their own thing and fields

939
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 4: are just like this mathematical convenience that ties all the

940
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 4: particles together.

941
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have this expectation that if we come up

942
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: with a mathematical description of the universe that works, it

943
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 1: must somehow be true. But it's not necessarily the case,

944
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: And it's possible potentially to have multiple distinct mathematical descriptions

945
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 1: of the universe that all work. And so you can't

946
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 1: claim that, oh, like I need fields to do my calculations,

947
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 1: so therefore fields must be out there and real in

948
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 1: the universe. They could just be a way that we

949
00:45:58,520 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: do the calculations.

950
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 4: Right, so you're saying kind of maybe math is wrong

951
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 4: or the math doesn't exist.

952
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,240
Speaker 1: We're saying maybe fields don't exist. Right. Math definitely exists,

953
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: but we don't know necessarily if it's fundamental to the

954
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 1: universe or just part of the way that we think.

955
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 4: All right, So then that's another view of what a

956
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 4: particle is. What's another way we can look at particles.

957
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 1: Another way we can look at particles is maybe they

958
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 1: are not fundamental. Maybe they are just like zoomed out,

959
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: wiggling other things. You know, take like the field perspective

960
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 1: to the extreme and say, like, well, what makes an

961
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 1: electron different from a quark? If you say that the

962
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: electron is a vibration in the electron field and the

963
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:39,840
Speaker 1: quark is a vibration in the cork field, why do

964
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: we have these two fields, the quark field and the

965
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: electron field. Are they somehow related? Is there a deeper relationship?

966
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: And so string theory, for example, is a view that

967
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 1: those two different fields, the electron field and the cork field,

968
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: are actually just one is some deeper field that like

969
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 1: can vibrate in these other dimensions and it looks like

970
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: an electron field if it vibrating one way, and it

971
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 1: looks like a cork field if it's vibrating in another way.

972
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: And so this, of course is string theory, the idea

973
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,280
Speaker 1: that the whole universe is built on these super tiny

974
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: vibrating strings.

975
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 4: Interesting, like there's only one field in the universe and

976
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 4: it can vibrate in different ways.

977
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, one basic universe stuff. And that would be really

978
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: satisfying because it would be a very simple answer, like

979
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 1: what's fundamental to the universe. Well, you got this one

980
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: thing and it can vibrate this way, and then it

981
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: looks like a quark field, and it can vibrate the

982
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: other way, and it looks like an electron field. Like

983
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: you were saying earlier, when you zoom out, they look different.

984
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: When you zoom in, you can tell, Oh, it's the

985
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: same old thing, just acting differently.

986
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 4: All right, let's get into this with a little bit

987
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 4: more detail, and let's drink people along on what string

988
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 4: theory is. And let's take another quick break.

989
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

990
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

991
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite.

992
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are US Dairy

993
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse

994
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working

995
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

996
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

997
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four times.

998
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: The same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes the barn,

999
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 1: and irrigates the crops. How is US Dairy tackling greenhouse gases.

1000
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 1: Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn the methane from

1001
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 1: maneure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and

1002
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,399
Speaker 1: electric cars. So the next time you grab a slice

1003
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,319
Speaker 1: of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know that

1004
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: dairy farmers and processors around the country are using the

1005
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 1: latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense dairy

1006
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 1: products we love with less of an impact. Visit usdairy

1007
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,200
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1008
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1009
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1010
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1011
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1012
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1013
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1014
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1015
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1016
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1017
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1018
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1019
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1020
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1021
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1022
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1023
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,920
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1024
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 13: we believe this too by sharing money management tips that

1025
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,520
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1026
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1027
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Speaker 14: Now, we have a level of privilege that our parents

1028
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 14: never had.

1029
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 4: So what do we do with it?

1030
00:49:57,719 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: Right?

1031
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 14: How do we utilize the opportunity needs that we have

1032
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 14: that they don't right? And a lot of that is

1033
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 14: educating ourselves, educating ourselves on how to not make the

1034
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 14: same mistakes they did, how to not fall into those

1035
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 14: same traps, and how to not you know, create the

1036
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 14: same difficult situations that many of us grew up And

1037
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 14: like I started the podcast earlier saying for me, in

1038
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 14: my family, one of the biggest points of contention was finances,

1039
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 14: and I know, as I'd gotten older, I made it

1040
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 14: a promise to myself to say, I don't want to

1041
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 14: relive that.

1042
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 13: Like a good neighbor State farm?

1043
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:32,439
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1044
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,280
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1045
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 4: All right, we're talking about deep questions today. We are

1046
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 4: questioning what does it mean to be a particle? What

1047
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 4: is the definition of that, and what does it mean

1048
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 4: in terms of how it matches up with reality and

1049
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 4: how things really are. And so we talked about different

1050
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 4: ideas for what a particle could be, and the latest

1051
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,800
Speaker 4: one we talked about was about string theory, like maybe

1052
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 4: particles are just little vibrations in some kind of universal

1053
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 4: field that's just out there in the universe.

1054
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can take this as like an extrapolation of

1055
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: our current ideas of particles as excitations in a bunch

1056
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: of different quantum fields. Maybe we can unify all those

1057
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 1: fields together into the one universe field, and then electrons

1058
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 1: are a different kind of wiggle than quarks, and different

1059
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 1: kind of wiggle than neutrinos, And that would answer a

1060
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 1: whole bunch of really fascinating questions. You know, why are

1061
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: electrons different from neutrinos. So it turns out it's just

1062
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 1: because they're wiggling and these other dimensions differently than neutrinos are.

1063
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 1: It would be super cool.

1064
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:45,879
Speaker 4: So in string theory, that is what's kind of being

1065
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 4: assumed that it's happening, is that there's one field. You know,

1066
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 4: is there a name for this field? The field?

1067
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: Not really? I guess if there's just one field, you

1068
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 1: don't have to give it names, right answer to distinguish things.

1069
00:51:57,520 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 4: Is this capital F field?

1070
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. But you have strings that are like one dimensional vibrations.

1071
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,280
Speaker 1: You have brains, which are like two dimensional surfaces brains

1072
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 1: b r an e as in membrane, not as in

1073
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:12,240
Speaker 1: brains like the thing in your side your.

1074
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 4: Skull, right. But these are just that's like a mathematical concept.

1075
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 4: It's not really something that vibrates. It's just kind of

1076
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 4: like the dimensions of it, right, or the space of it.

1077
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 1: Well, you can have one dimensional objects, which are the strings,

1078
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 1: and you can also have two dimensional objects, which would

1079
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 1: be the brains, and these strings can sometimes vibrate between

1080
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:31,959
Speaker 1: the brains. You could have all sorts of complicated things,

1081
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 1: but the fundamental elements of the universe, the particles that

1082
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 1: we're familiar with, would be made out of these one

1083
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: dimensional vibrating strings that vibrate differently. And again, you know,

1084
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:44,760
Speaker 1: this is all speculative. We have no evidence for string theory.

1085
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 1: We don't even know if string theory is the right

1086
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 1: theory to do this, but it's an example of how

1087
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 1: you could go deeper and you could get at some

1088
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 1: of these really interesting questions about like, you know, what

1089
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 1: makes quarks and electrons different the same way we were wondering,

1090
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 1: like what makes carbon different from oxygen?

1091
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 4: Right, it is that maybe electrons and quarks are not

1092
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:08,359
Speaker 4: actually particles, they're just like things put together from a

1093
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 4: smaller particle, right yeah.

1094
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,280
Speaker 1: Or maybe they are fields that vibrate in different ways

1095
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 1: and that's why they look different. So instead of thinking

1096
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,839
Speaker 1: about the electron is made up of smaller things, think

1097
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 1: of it like as a version of one larger thing,

1098
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 1: like the way we think about like the electron and

1099
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 1: the positron as two sides of the same coin, rather

1100
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 1: than two separate particles. We can think about the electron

1101
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 1: and the quarks and the neutrinos and all these different

1102
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: particles as different kinds of wiggles that this one field

1103
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 1: can do.

1104
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 4: And so the electron field wouldn't exist really, even though

1105
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 4: we currently have a mathematical description for it. It would

1106
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,720
Speaker 4: actually just be like a subfield of the field.

1107
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: The same way that like, does ice cream really exist?

1108
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:51,279
Speaker 1: It's useful to talk about ice cream when you're doing

1109
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: physics at one level, it's not really useful to talk

1110
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:55,959
Speaker 1: about like the fields it's made out of. Ice cream

1111
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 1: does exist, even if it's actually just a bunch of

1112
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 1: vibrating fields. So in that same sense, like, yes, the

1113
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 1: electron field is a useful thing to talk about if

1114
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 1: you're like doing experiments with electrons, even if deep down

1115
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: it's just like a particular flavor of this universal string field.

1116
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 4: Well, I think the ice cream is definitely real in

1117
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 4: my waistline.

1118
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:17,879
Speaker 1: It tastes really good.

1119
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 4: That's right, Yeah, as real flavor. But that's kind of

1120
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:23,399
Speaker 4: one idea for a particle. But then don't you run

1121
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 4: into the same problem you did before, which is like,

1122
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 4: is a particle of vibration and excitation of this field

1123
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 4: or is the field itself? The field really the fundamental

1124
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 4: thing about the universe.

1125
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't answer that philosophical question. Its just sort

1126
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:41,240
Speaker 1: of like goes deeper down the fields are fundamental route

1127
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 1: to try to unify all the fields into one field.

1128
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 1: It doesn't answer the fundamental question of are the fields

1129
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:49,879
Speaker 1: actually real or is this just a mathematical picture. And

1130
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,240
Speaker 1: that's something we might not ever be able to probe

1131
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: because in the end of fields are not something we

1132
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,760
Speaker 1: see in the same way that early on in quantum

1133
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 1: mechanics we had this idea of a wave function, but

1134
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: you can't see the wave function directly. You just see

1135
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 1: the particles and you do calculations about how the wave

1136
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 1: function influences the particles, but you never see the wave function.

1137
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 1: You can't see things in a quantum superposition, for example,

1138
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: And so it doesn't answer that philosophical question.

1139
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 4: All right, So another alternative, but maybe not a great

1140
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 4: definition of a particle. What is maybe another definition of

1141
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 4: a particle?

1142
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: Well, there are some folks that take a completely different

1143
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 1: view and try to build a completely different idea for

1144
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 1: what a particle is. And I love these kinds of

1145
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 1: approaches because they like overthrow everything we've been working on

1146
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 1: for one hundred years and start from scratch. These are

1147
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:38,280
Speaker 1: the folks that look at the universe as built out

1148
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:41,839
Speaker 1: of little bits of space, you know, instead of looking

1149
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 1: at spaces like smooth and continuous. They say, well, what

1150
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: if space is made out of pixels and all those

1151
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 1: pixels are woven together using quantum entanglement. So you have

1152
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,280
Speaker 1: this new view of the universe as like a bunch

1153
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 1: of little quantum pixels that are woven together into a

1154
00:55:58,200 --> 00:55:59,720
Speaker 1: fabric that we call space.

1155
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 4: Right, This is the idea of like maybe space is

1156
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 4: kind of like a foam almost, right, Like it's not

1157
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 4: a thing, and it's not like a big emptyiness. It's

1158
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:11,560
Speaker 4: actually like basically like a giant like a giant massive

1159
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 4: of bubbles, right, sort of adjacent to each other.

1160
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: So you start with that idea, and then you take

1161
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 1: it one step further and you make analogies to ideas

1162
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 1: we've discovered in quantum computers. Quantum computers are this different

1163
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 1: way to do calculations by using quantum mechanical objects instead

1164
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 1: of classical objects like transistors or switches, you can do

1165
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:33,279
Speaker 1: all sorts of weird different calculations. And if you aren't

1166
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 1: familiar with quantum computers, we have a whole podcast episode

1167
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: on what that is. But some of the ideas from

1168
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 1: quantum computers people think might be applicable to this sort

1169
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:45,719
Speaker 1: of like quantum space time. And so you can think

1170
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,280
Speaker 1: of sort of like this quantum space time, this quantum foam.

1171
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 1: It's sort of like a huge array of cube bits,

1172
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,280
Speaker 1: these like fundamental elements of a quantum computer.

1173
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,880
Speaker 4: You're sort of talking about maybe like reducing the physical

1174
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 4: universe down to which is like information. Right, that's kind

1175
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 4: of one view of the universe is that it's not

1176
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 4: like real, it's not something tangible or spacious. It's actually

1177
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 4: just all kind of information ones and zeros.

1178
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:14,839
Speaker 1: Yes, it's all about information, and quantum computing is about

1179
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 1: how you manipulate information. In fact, all computing is about

1180
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 1: manipulating information to try to get the answer to a

1181
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 1: question that you have. And quantum computers manipulate information in

1182
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 1: a different way than classical computers. And one of the

1183
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: issues they have when they're dealing with information and quantum

1184
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: computers is how to do things like error correction because

1185
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: quantum computers are a bit fuzzy, are a bit messy,

1186
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:37,440
Speaker 1: and so they try to like recover information sometimes when

1187
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 1: it's been fuzzed up and lost from quantum computers. And

1188
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 1: people have found that this actually is very similar to

1189
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 1: questions of like trying to get information out of a

1190
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 1: black hole. Another topic we've talked about in the podcast

1191
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 1: a lot is like what happens to information when it

1192
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 1: goes into a black hole? Particles fall into black hole,

1193
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 1: they contain information. If that black hole eventually evaporates due

1194
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 1: to Hawking radiation, where is that information gone? And there's

1195
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 1: this potential solution to this quantum information black hole problem

1196
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 1: that says maybe there's like quantum entanglements between the inside

1197
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 1: and the outside of the black hole. And people have

1198
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 1: restructured this now in terms of quantum computing and seen

1199
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 1: connections between solutions to quantum computing error correction problems and

1200
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 1: black hole information problems and all that just to say,

1201
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:27,919
Speaker 1: like maybe it makes sense to look at the whole

1202
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 1: universe as like one massive quantum computer.

1203
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 4: WHOA I me mean, like maybe it makes sense, like

1204
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 4: you found connections between the physical world and this information world,

1205
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:39,600
Speaker 4: and so maybe the whole universe is just information.

1206
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 1: Maybe the whole universe is just information. And then the

1207
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 1: connection back to the question of the episode what is

1208
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 1: a particle? Is that in some of these space times

1209
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 1: that like arise from looking at the whole universe as

1210
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 1: a bunch of quantum bits that are all entangled, there

1211
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 1: are these entanglement patterns that sort of emerge and they

1212
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:02,160
Speaker 1: correspond to like localized bits of energy floating in our

1213
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 1: three D world. And so what you see in these

1214
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:09,080
Speaker 1: quantum computers are like these packets of information that like

1215
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 1: to stick together and float through that quantum world. And

1216
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,320
Speaker 1: is this what a particle is? You know, do we

1217
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:21,440
Speaker 1: have particles in our actual universe? Because underneath we have

1218
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 1: this quantum phone that likes to entangle in certain ways,

1219
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:27,919
Speaker 1: so that information propagates in these like discrete blobs through

1220
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 1: the space time. It's very tentative and it's very speculative,

1221
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 1: but it's a fun, sort of brand new idea for

1222
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 1: what like a particle might be.

1223
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I think I need to smoke some morbid

1224
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 4: enefity to wrap my head around this. But it sounds

1225
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 4: like you're saying, like maybe the nature of the universe

1226
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 4: isn't the way we experience it. It's maybe just all

1227
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 4: abstract information, like you know, the fact that I'm here.

1228
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 4: I'm not really here next to you or next to

1229
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 4: this my desk. I'm really just like one quantum big

1230
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 4: clump of information and represented in some universal computer. And

1231
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 4: this desk is also a clump of information and someone.

1232
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 4: We're all sort of related by quantum entanglement, and that

1233
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 4: we interpret that entanglement as like me being next to it.

1234
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there are these rules these quantum bits like

1235
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 1: to follow, and that these behaviors that emerge from the

1236
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 1: way they interact, and some of those behaviors are what

1237
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 1: we would describe as particles. And so we're part of

1238
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 1: this system and we look around, we observe it, we

1239
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 1: describe these things. Doesn't mean that what we see is fundamental.

1240
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 1: What we see is emergent. It's more like ice creams

1241
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 1: and hurricanes than the actual units of the universe. And

1242
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 1: you can refashion these particles in terms of you know,

1243
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:42,920
Speaker 1: some sort of like weird quantum bits as part of

1244
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 1: the universal computer. And you know, again, this is like

1245
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 1: a speculative idea that is like ten years from being

1246
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 1: even a tentative idea, but it's already got a cool name.

1247
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:55,560
Speaker 1: They call it it from cubit meaning like the whole

1248
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 1: universe comes from quantum computers.

1249
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 4: WHOA like to it Like something in the universe is

1250
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:04,800
Speaker 4: actually just a bit of information kind of right, yeah,

1251
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 4: like for something to be defined as something, it's all

1252
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 4: just information.

1253
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. The deeper idea is, if you assemble information

1254
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:15,479
Speaker 1: in this sort of self organizing way, self perpetuating way,

1255
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 1: does that create a reality? Can reality just be like

1256
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 1: a projection of this informational arrangement? And so like you

1257
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 1: need several more layers of banana peels to really understand

1258
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 1: the meaning of that.

1259
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 4: But it's kind of like how you know if I

1260
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:32,440
Speaker 4: play a video game on my PlayStation that there's this

1261
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 4: whole world, but it's really just riding on top of

1262
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 4: a bunch of you know, transistors, and it's all writing

1263
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 4: as information as ones and zeros. Is it being about

1264
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 4: you're saying, like maybe an electron is not really a thing.

1265
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:47,720
Speaker 4: It's just like a bit of information sort of riding

1266
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:51,040
Speaker 4: on top of this quantum foam computer that is actually

1267
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 4: the universe.

1268
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, Or maybe that's what a thing is, that's what

1269
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 1: it means to be a thing is to be part

1270
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:00,680
Speaker 1: of this quantum information in the universe. Computer those all

1271
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:03,720
Speaker 1: the things we've ever experienced are just that, and that's

1272
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 1: what a thing is. And so it's a super fun

1273
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 1: idea because it gives you this like glimpse into an

1274
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,920
Speaker 1: alternative view of the workings of the universe at like

1275
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 1: the deepest level. But you know, it could also just

1276
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 1: be bunk.

1277
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 4: Or it could all just be in an aliens PlayStation

1278
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 4: quantum PlayStation PlayStation.

1279
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 1: Cue, Why don't they just press the cheek codes already

1280
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:25,360
Speaker 1: so I can get to the next level?

1281
01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, when am I going to upgrade? That's what I'm

1282
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:31,480
Speaker 4: waiting for. But I guess, you know, maybe I wonder

1283
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:33,600
Speaker 4: if it could all be Like all of these ideas

1284
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 4: about particles, I wonder if they could all be true.

1285
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 4: You know, like maybe an electron is a bit of

1286
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 4: information and a quantum computer, and it's also a vibration

1287
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 4: in a one unifying field, and it's also a collapse wavefunction,

1288
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:47,640
Speaker 4: you know, do you know what I mean? Like, maybe

1289
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:51,160
Speaker 4: these all these ideas are just different ways of looking

1290
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 4: at what's actually true.

1291
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 1: Just like sort of Rashuman style. We might all have

1292
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 1: different stories to describe the same series of events. There

1293
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 1: might be multiple ways to describe reality that are self

1294
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:07,720
Speaker 1: consistent and predict experiments and yet fundamentally at their hearts,

1295
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 1: like conceptionally very different. And that's a little scary because

1296
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:15,040
Speaker 1: it means that maybe there isn't a single truth about

1297
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 1: the universe. Maybe there are multiple truths, or maybe there

1298
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 1: is no truth. There are just those stories, those mathematical

1299
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 1: stories we tell ourselves about the way the universe out

1300
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:27,480
Speaker 1: there works. And so to you know, bring it back

1301
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 1: to aliens again, I think it would be really exciting

1302
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 1: to talk to alien physicists and discover, like, do they

1303
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:35,880
Speaker 1: have a completely different way of thinking about the universe?

1304
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 1: Is a particle even a concept for them? Or have

1305
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 1: they discovered the same structures as we have and what

1306
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 1: does that mean about their universality?

1307
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:46,320
Speaker 4: Right? Or like we talked about earlier, maybe there is

1308
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 4: a truth like there is such a thing as a particle,

1309
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:51,520
Speaker 4: but our brains and our way of doing our you know,

1310
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 4: limitations in math and thinking only allow us to look

1311
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:56,800
Speaker 4: at it in these different ways. But really there is

1312
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:59,800
Speaker 4: a truth that we just don't get it or can't

1313
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 4: get it.

1314
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:03,040
Speaker 1: Where we get it as much as our dogs understand hurricanes.

1315
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, or maybe your dogs view of the universe is

1316
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 4: the correct one, right. Maybe we're just overthinking things, Daniel,

1317
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:12,680
Speaker 4: is what I'm saying. Maybe the universe is really just

1318
01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 4: all about treats and not treats.

1319
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:17,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and naps. Really, that's the fundamental element of the universe,

1320
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:18,439
Speaker 1: the naps.

1321
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:20,960
Speaker 4: Certainly, your dog seems happier than most particle physicists.

1322
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 1: That's true. I think my dog is having a better

1323
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:23,480
Speaker 1: life than I am.

1324
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 4: That's probably true.

1325
01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:29,720
Speaker 1: We should all be dogs, we should all be my dog.

1326
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 4: But I guess again, just another interesting, you know, exploration

1327
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:36,440
Speaker 4: into what it means for things to be real in

1328
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:39,320
Speaker 4: this universe and what's at the heart of reality. You know,

1329
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 4: it seems like we still don't know and may never know.

1330
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:44,400
Speaker 1: We still don't know, and we may never know. But

1331
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:46,680
Speaker 1: we're gonna have fun along the way and make a

1332
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 1: lot of friends. And you know, even if you answer

1333
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 1: this question, you know, what is a particle? And you decided,

1334
01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 1: well you did some experiment or some philosophical argument to

1335
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:59,120
Speaker 1: persuade yourself that fields where the fundamental element of the universe,

1336
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 1: you could still ask, all right, but why why does

1337
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:06,240
Speaker 1: space have fields in it. Where do these fields come from? Right?

1338
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 1: Do you have to have fields? Could you have space

1339
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 1: without fields? So even if you answered all these questions,

1340
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:13,800
Speaker 1: you would still have plenty of stuff to dig into.

1341
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:17,520
Speaker 4: Or you can say the alternative, which is whatever, time

1342
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:21,040
Speaker 4: to take a nap. It's time to eat a treat,

1343
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:21,800
Speaker 4: take a nap.

1344
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:24,760
Speaker 1: That is something actually that professors and dogs have in

1345
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 1: common is taking afternoon naps.

1346
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 4: You're a little rough around the edges.

1347
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:33,480
Speaker 1: Well, my bark's not as bad as my bite.

1348
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:36,240
Speaker 4: All right, Well, we hope you enjoyed that trip into

1349
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:40,160
Speaker 4: asking questions about reality and what does it all mean

1350
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 4: to be something in the universe?

1351
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 1: And this is a question for me of particular interest.

1352
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:47,280
Speaker 1: We'd like to send you off today. But the song

1353
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:51,480
Speaker 1: sent in by a listener, Ben Kelly. This song captures

1354
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 1: the spirit of wonder we feel when we think about

1355
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 1: the amazing strangeness of reality. So this is Ben Kelly

1356
01:05:58,320 --> 01:05:59,600
Speaker 1: and his band The Amber.

1357
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:03,160
Speaker 7: But we took her close look nature and saw this

1358
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 7: nothing of the no bad rock to b from a No.

1359
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 5: Four on the Rose's on planets around the Sun. Well

1360
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:21,720
Speaker 5: that ain't want it? Next time of those stuff juice way,

1361
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:33,840
Speaker 5: everything is made up. Got this. Everything is just made up.

1362
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:39,080
Speaker 5: Everything is made up. You gotta have to face office.

1363
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:40,880
Speaker 5: It's not just made up.

1364
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:44,760
Speaker 4: Thanks for joining us, See you next time.

1365
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain

1366
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts

1367
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:03,520
Speaker 1: from my art Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1368
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:16,880
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. When you

1369
01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:18,960
Speaker 1: pop a piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably

1370
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:22,040
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact. But the people in

1371
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:25,200
Speaker 1: the dairy industry are. That's why they're working hard every

1372
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 1: day to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources,

1373
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:32,680
Speaker 1: and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. House US dairy tackling

1374
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:36,480
Speaker 1: greenhouse gases. Many farms use anaerobic digestors to turn the

1375
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:40,920
Speaker 1: methane from manure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns,

1376
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 1: and electric cars. Visit you as dairy dot COM's Last

1377
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 1: Sustainability to learn more.

1378
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:50,920
Speaker 3: There are children, friends, and families walking, riding on passing

1379
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:53,320
Speaker 3: the roads every day. Remember they're real people with loved

1380
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:55,560
Speaker 3: ones who need them to get home safely. Protect our

1381
01:07:55,600 --> 01:07:59,120
Speaker 3: cyclists and pedestrians because they're people too. Go Safely California

1382
01:07:59,160 --> 01:08:01,400
Speaker 3: from the California of Traffic Safety and Caltrans.

1383
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 12: In the rhythm of our daily lives, it's the little

1384
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:09,680
Speaker 12: things that make the greatest impact. At the Monterey Bay Aquarium,

1385
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:14,080
Speaker 12: those moments blossom into memories where every side and sound

1386
01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:17,639
Speaker 12: connects us with the natural world. Embark on a journey

1387
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:21,720
Speaker 12: of discovery today, from the captivating canopy of the Kelpforest

1388
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:25,040
Speaker 12: to the enigmatic depths of the deep sea Monterey Bay

1389
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:30,240
Speaker 12: Aquarium inspiring conservation of the ocean. Visit Monterey Bayaquarium dot org,

1390
01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:31,160
Speaker 12: slash together