Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftsteads Podcast. My
Speaker 1: guest today is Margot Price, who has a new album,
Speaker 1: Hard Hitted Woman. Margot, you went back to using Matt
Speaker 1: ross Bang as a producer like you did on your
Speaker 1: first two big time albums. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2: Matt has been just so instrumental and in the shape
Speaker 2: of my sound, and I knew that I wanted to
Speaker 2: work with him again. It had been a minute, and
Speaker 2: I think we've both just grown a lot since those
Speaker 2: first couple records. Matt's worked on some huge things, and
Speaker 2: he's just the type of person that's married to his work.
Speaker 2: He's so in love with being in the studio and
Speaker 2: making the song be the best it can be. So
Speaker 2: when I, yeah, when I talked to him about getting
Speaker 2: back in there together, we were both just thrilled. It was.
Speaker 2: It was a great experience, It really was.
Speaker 1: Okay, tell the story about how you met Matt going
Speaker 1: to Sun Studios.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Matt worked there at Sun for years and years,
Speaker 2: and he was an engineer there. He also gave tours.
Speaker 2: That's kind of how I first stumbled upon Son. I
Speaker 2: was on a musical tour stopped in Memphis, on my
Speaker 2: way to Texas and literally saw a little you know
Speaker 2: sign in the gift shop that said make your own recording,
Speaker 2: and so I reached out called the number. And Matt
Speaker 2: was the engineer there at the time, and he soaked
Speaker 2: up so much of the you know, recording knowledge from
Speaker 2: Sam Phillips and and you know, the old school way
Speaker 2: of doing things. I like a lot of music from
Speaker 2: the eras that he is familiar with, you know, those
Speaker 2: tape machines and all the kind of organic ways of
Speaker 2: doing stuff. And I think that's where we where we
Speaker 2: really vibe.
Speaker 1: Okay, you say that since you first worked with him,
Speaker 1: you've both grown. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2: I think when I got in there to make that
Speaker 2: first record, I mean I had been in the studio prior,
Speaker 2: but you know, there's there's just so much to learn
Speaker 2: about recording, about how to get the most out of
Speaker 2: out of your voice and what you're capable of. I
Speaker 2: think when I was younger making those records, you know,
Speaker 2: I just I had this urgency that was like, I've
Speaker 2: got to get this out, this has got to I've
Speaker 2: got to get it out. And I didn't have the
Speaker 2: luxury of having a huge budget, you know, my husband
Speaker 2: sold a car. We we sold a lot of our
Speaker 2: musical gear to make that first record. I mean I
Speaker 2: pawned my wedding ring. We just kind of went all
Speaker 2: in and so I really had like a three day
Speaker 2: budget to get that album done. And as I've grown
Speaker 2: and you know, sat with those records forever, now it's
Speaker 2: like I want to get everything perfect. I want it
Speaker 2: to be, you know, completely completely finished. And and that
Speaker 2: is something that I've learned. You know, It's like these
Speaker 2: records are around forever, and if it takes going back
Speaker 2: and doing another vocal pass or like also just even
Speaker 2: sitting in there during the mixing process, you know, like
Speaker 2: it's grueling. But like that's something that in my in
Speaker 2: my middle age, I've really loved being you know, being
Speaker 2: there from the conception all the way to the finish
Speaker 2: line mixed and mastering all the details.
Speaker 1: And what's different about working with the producer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think being able to take that feedback and
Speaker 2: to put your ego aside and you know, have somebody
Speaker 2: else's ear in there too to make sure that, yeah,
Speaker 2: that you've got the everything you need to make the
Speaker 2: song memorable. And and like I said, just you know,
Speaker 2: not not drowning things in too much reverb or too
Speaker 2: much you know, God forbid auto tune. But that's like
Speaker 2: the exact opposite of what Matt likes to do. He
Speaker 2: wants things to be human and not too polished. And
Speaker 2: so it's a real give and take because I think
Speaker 2: I could get stuck just you know, in the editing
Speaker 2: process or in the in the overdub process. And so
Speaker 2: it's also when to know where you know when it's done,
Speaker 2: so you don't quote unquote burn the beans.
Speaker 1: Okay, you made a lot of records, but not with
Speaker 1: big distribution to your first album with Third Man that
Speaker 1: blew up really pretty quickly. You are on SNL now
Speaker 1: it's you know, basically ten years later. The landscape has changed,
Speaker 1: your relevant of you. Even SNL doesn't mean what it
Speaker 1: used to mean. So when you sit down, I used
Speaker 1: to be when you were growing up. Hey, let's get
Speaker 1: on MTV. Everybody's going to know my record. Today nobody
Speaker 1: knows every record. So when you go in to make
Speaker 1: a record, what are the targets and what are your
Speaker 1: feelings relative to what they used to be.
Speaker 2: Well, the landscape has changed so much, and you know,
Speaker 2: the music business is almost even unrecognizable from ten years
Speaker 2: years ago, because the charts are are dictated by you know,
Speaker 2: TikTok and social media, and there's good things about the change,
Speaker 2: and there's not so good things about the change. For me,
Speaker 2: I try not to get too caught up in you know,
Speaker 2: I don't know what I think other people want to
Speaker 2: hear from me, or what I think is going to
Speaker 2: you know, be a one of those kind of flash
Speaker 2: in the pan, you know, like a song that people
Speaker 2: are putting on their reels, or you know, people are
Speaker 2: just using fifteen seconds these days, and it's like, that's
Speaker 2: what that's what's going on now. Who knows, if, you know,
Speaker 2: we'll ever get the attention span back of the public
Speaker 2: in the way that it used to be. But I'm
Speaker 2: still making records that are a holess experience to the record.
Speaker 2: I'm not. I never got in this wanting to just
Speaker 2: write pop songs or wanting to just write something that
Speaker 2: is going to top the charts. I'm here for a
Speaker 2: part of the music listening population that wants to go
Speaker 2: a little deeper than wants to go a little bit
Speaker 2: further than whatever the earworm of the week is.
Speaker 1: Okay, this is a commercial enterprise. You're on Loma Vista,
Speaker 1: which is part of a major organization. There's issues of budgets,
Speaker 1: issues of commercial success now really streams. Do you feel
Speaker 1: that pressure.
Speaker 2: I'm sure people would like me to feel that pressure.
Speaker 2: I I don't know. I have managed to build a
Speaker 2: career off of having in integrity and off of like
Speaker 2: the live show and touring, and I you know, of course,
Speaker 2: would like my albums to do great and to sell
Speaker 2: as many records as I can. The streaming stuff, it's
Speaker 2: it's hard for me. It's hard for me to want
Speaker 2: to have massive streaming numbers because of what those corporations
Speaker 2: do to artists. So I don't know. I think at
Speaker 2: the end of the day, I'm still gonna be fine.
Speaker 2: I'm still gonna be able to you know, feed my family.
Speaker 2: And I can't get caught up in that because I've
Speaker 2: never been caught up. I've never been worried about being
Speaker 2: like on country radio, and you know, the charts have
Speaker 2: have changed in the way that you know, maybe country
Speaker 2: radio isn't as important as it used to be. But
Speaker 2: now it's kind of like, I don't know, it's it's
Speaker 2: still there's still problems in the music business. They've just changed.
Speaker 1: So you're making a record in today's market. What's the
Speaker 1: budget and how long did it take to make it?
Speaker 2: Well, the budget, you know, they give you like a
Speaker 2: ballpark estimate, and I went to RCA Studio A So
Speaker 2: I blew through that budget because I went to the
Speaker 2: best studio and I want to pay my musicians fairly,
Speaker 2: and I, like I said, I wasn't going to stop
Speaker 2: until it was done. And so the budget for this
Speaker 2: record was substantial. It was. It was healthy. But I
Speaker 2: have no regrets. That studio sounds incredible and you can
Speaker 2: hear it. I mean, like we didn't go back in
Speaker 2: and put a bunch of like reverb and delay on everything,
Speaker 2: because we were just using the room and we were
Speaker 2: just using the echo chamber and just the room and
Speaker 2: RCA and like just knowing like, okay, this is where
Speaker 2: Dolly made nine to five, you know, like this is
Speaker 2: where some of my favorite records were made. And it
Speaker 2: was when people cared about the audio sound. Now everybody
Speaker 2: just listens through whatever, you know, through the speaker of
Speaker 2: their phone. But I just got the test pressing and
Speaker 2: the vinyl sounds incredible, and there's just there's no comparing it,
Speaker 2: and so until they take the keys away from me,
Speaker 2: I'm going to do my best to have records sound
Speaker 2: warm and not everything all compressed and sounds like shit,
Speaker 2: like you know when you do turn on country radio,
Speaker 2: like that's what you hear. You hear a bunch of
Speaker 2: compressed garbage. And uh, we've got a task Cam three
Speaker 2: eighty eight reel to reel in my house in this
Speaker 2: in this room here. My husband's been really getting acquainted
Speaker 2: with how to work it, and he's been recording a
Speaker 2: bunch of stuff on there. So even if I do
Speaker 2: make a record that has you know, isn't going into
Speaker 2: to RCAA Studio A and have a huge budget, it
Speaker 2: still is going to sound warm, because that's just what
Speaker 2: I gravitate towards anything done in the sixties and the
Speaker 2: seventies and analog warmth in those in those ways.
Speaker 1: Okay, you made a video that's a take off on
Speaker 1: the video from Subterranean Homesick Blues, and you write in
Speaker 1: your book which is quite interesting about being a big
Speaker 1: Dylan fan. I mean, you talk about playing a gig
Speaker 1: and playing winter Lude from New Morning. Most people don't
Speaker 1: even know that track. So what's your favorite Bob Dylan album.
Speaker 2: Ah, that such a tough question. I think it all
Speaker 2: depends on the mood. But I love Desire. I go
Speaker 2: back to that record all the time. The songs on it,
Speaker 2: of course, like Emmylu's harmony singing, which I as soon
Speaker 2: as I met Emmy that was one of the things
Speaker 2: I had to ask her about, you know, because she
Speaker 2: notoriously hated her vocals on there. But yeah, I love
Speaker 2: I have such a soft spot for Desire. That's kind
Speaker 2: of been the the mood I've been in. But Dylan
Speaker 2: is like number one artist for me. He's the best
Speaker 2: songwriter that's ever been. And I'll dance on Steve Earl's
Speaker 2: coffee table and argue that. And I love Towns Okay.
Speaker 1: So you know, Desire follows up Blood on the Tracks,
Speaker 1: which is sort of a comeback for Dylan after his
Speaker 1: tour with the band and Planet Ways, which sold and
Speaker 1: really was not embraced critically at the time. So if
Speaker 1: I asked you, like, other than that album, give me
Speaker 1: some other Dylan tracks that you're a fan of.
Speaker 2: Oh, other other than that album? I mean, gosh, I
Speaker 2: know all the deep cuts, I mean even the you know,
Speaker 2: please missus Henry and all the stuff that he was
Speaker 2: writing half Baked with the band. You know, that record
Speaker 2: changed things for me. Million Dollar Bash, Like, there's just
Speaker 2: there's so many different and I loved I mean, Planet
Speaker 2: Waves has some gems too, and I even love like
Speaker 2: Bob's coming to Jesus Records, you know, like you got
Speaker 2: to serve somebody. I've it's taken me a long time
Speaker 2: to get into all his records, but I mean John
Speaker 2: Wesley Harding, even the ones that people don't like, I'm like, no,
Speaker 2: there's great. There's great songs in there. And I think
Speaker 2: anybody that's that doesn't like Bob Dylan really has no
Speaker 2: business playing music.
Speaker 1: Okay, you know there are different periods with Dylan. You know,
Speaker 1: the earlier records all you know, there's a run of
Speaker 1: words like my favorite song is It's all Right Ma
Speaker 1: from Bringing It All back Home. Once you get John
Speaker 1: Wesley Harding and National Skyline, it slows down a little bit.
Speaker 1: These are different periods. What have you learned from listening
Speaker 1: to Bob Dylan that has affected your own life or songwriting?
Speaker 2: Well, I think he never got stuck doing the same
Speaker 2: thing too long, and he was always, you know, burning
Speaker 2: through different things for inspiration. And obviously there's that quote
Speaker 2: that is supposed to be Bob's that's like amateur's borrow
Speaker 2: and professional steel. And I think Bob was just he
Speaker 2: just he was a conduit. But he also was a
Speaker 2: great thief and interpreter of other people's work and being
Speaker 2: able to take it and bring it into your own.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm I'm a big believer in tradition and
Speaker 2: like rooted music. You know, everything comes from the blues,
Speaker 2: everything comes from the Irish, you know, folk songs back
Speaker 2: in the day, that's really what country music is, or Americana.
Speaker 2: But think you know Bob, he everything he did was
Speaker 2: always rooted, but he found different, you know, different ways
Speaker 2: to bring all these different genres into into what he did,
Speaker 2: whether it was gospel, and I mean here he's just
Speaker 2: you know, he's a Jewish kid, and he somehows I'm
Speaker 2: gonna make a gospel record. I've loved people that could
Speaker 2: be chameleons in that way. And I think that's how
Speaker 2: he never got I mean, like you said, he did
Speaker 2: have periods where he you know, would disappear and his
Speaker 2: work got slower, but like he just he kept moving,
Speaker 2: he kept creating, he kept coming back to things, and
Speaker 2: I think, you know, maybe my career would be further
Speaker 2: along had I stayed in the country world the whole time,
Speaker 2: or it stayed in the Americano world the whole time.
Speaker 2: But like I had to just for my own sanity,
Speaker 2: like visit these other genres that I love so much.
Speaker 2: I mean, I I don't regret making a psychedelic rock album.
Speaker 2: I don't regret kind of crossing over into these other
Speaker 2: things because that's just what I felt pulled to do.
Speaker 2: And when you make your passion into your career, it
Speaker 2: can make the whole thing like not as sexy as
Speaker 2: it was because you've got people depending on you financially,
Speaker 2: and you know, you've got you've got employees, and you've
Speaker 2: got to think about paying your bills and oh what,
Speaker 2: you know, what am I going to do that's going
Speaker 2: to be successful? But at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: I just I think that's that's what I've learned from Bob,
Speaker 2: is to just keep moving, keep being inspired, and you know,
Speaker 2: nothing is really off limits when it comes to genres.
Speaker 1: So what have you stolen?
Speaker 2: Haven't I stolen? Yeah? I think you know, even in
Speaker 2: my first record, I was borrowing so much from like
Speaker 2: Loretta Lynn, I was borrowing. I mean, even the title
Speaker 2: of Midwest Farmer's Daughter, like that came from a Beach
Speaker 2: Boys song.
Speaker 1: You know, okay, wait to stop for a second. That's
Speaker 1: a great song off the second Beach Boys album. How
Speaker 1: do you know that song?
Speaker 2: I was born in the wrong time. I literally everything
Speaker 2: in my home it looks like I'm you know, was
Speaker 2: graduated the year my parents graduated, which was like nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy three. But I had one of those dads that would,
Speaker 2: you know, put me in the back of the car
Speaker 2: and do the quizzing. Okay, who's this? You know, who's this? Uh,
Speaker 2: it's the doors. It's Jim Morris and dad, you know,
Speaker 2: like he educated me when it came to classic rock
Speaker 2: and blues. And then my grand my grandmother loved country music.
Speaker 2: And my uncle was a songwriter here in Nashville's name
Speaker 2: is Bob Fisher, and he wrote songs for George Jones,
Speaker 2: Tanya Charlie Pride. So that was where I got the
Speaker 2: like country kind of influence from. And I mean, of
Speaker 2: course I listened to contemporary music in the nineties, like
Speaker 2: I was listening to Doctor dre and and Snoop Dogg
Speaker 2: and Eminem. But I was also like very into loosen
Speaker 2: To Williams and Gilly Walch and like the songwriting that
Speaker 2: was going on then, and Tom Petty and Fleetwood Mac
Speaker 2: and Heartbreakers. So I don't know, I feel like in
Speaker 2: the nineties is when everything really started to get shit
Speaker 2: and you know, get worse, especially the two thousands, like
Speaker 2: the boy bands and like the pop music that was
Speaker 2: going on then. I just find it really insufferable. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I've just lived in another decade for a very long time.
Speaker 1: Okay, you grew up in Nowheeresville, Illinois, western part of Illinois,
Speaker 1: and you're listening to Gin and Juice and Doggy Style.
Speaker 1: I mean, I live in Los Angeles, I know where
Speaker 1: Englewood is. I know we're all on Beachwitter. What's it
Speaker 1: like listening to those records where there may not even
Speaker 1: be a black person with an X number of miles.
Speaker 2: Very good point there was. Yeah, there was like one
Speaker 2: black family in my town and they were adopted by
Speaker 2: a white family, so that tells you that. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: don't know. It just was like my parents didn't want
Speaker 2: me to listen to it. So that's was really the
Speaker 2: motivation behind it, I don't know. I I think, yeah,
Speaker 2: it was just what everybody else in my in my
Speaker 2: school was listening to. And really at that time, I
Speaker 2: wasn't as big into the nineties country as you know.
Speaker 2: It was like I could kind of take it or
Speaker 2: leave it. Like when I really fell in love with country,
Speaker 2: that was getting into stuff that was older. So I
Speaker 2: think at the time it was just like compared to,
Speaker 2: like I said, the Christina Aguileras and the you know,
Speaker 2: in Sync and stuff like that, it was like I
Speaker 2: resonated more with with Wrap, which is is hilarious to say.
Speaker 1: But Okay, so you're in high school, these records are
Speaker 1: coming out. You know, there's a whole lifestyle attitude vocabulary
Speaker 1: in these records. So were you and your friends imitating
Speaker 1: that living.
Speaker 2: That Yeah, we were definitely. I was drinking way too young,
Speaker 2: I was. I had my first drink at the age
Speaker 2: of I think twelve, and the pot smoking that came
Speaker 2: around sixteen. And yeah, there wasn't a lot to do
Speaker 2: in my town, and so substances became became a part
Speaker 2: of my life very quickly. Unfortunately.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to the beginning. Your parents and
Speaker 1: grandparents are turning you on to music. At what point
Speaker 1: do you first start to play an instrument?
Speaker 2: So piano lessons started around yeah, early elementary seven eight
Speaker 2: years old, I think was when the piano came around.
Speaker 2: And then at twelve, well, before you.
Speaker 1: Go out there usually you know, I'm a little older
Speaker 1: than you. It was like an unwritten rule in a
Speaker 1: Jewish family, it start taking piano lessons. How did you
Speaker 1: end up taking piano lessons? Was there already pen in
Speaker 1: the home and parents said you're going to do this?
Speaker 1: And was it like a chore or did you see
Speaker 1: a piano say hey, I'd like to play the Well
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 2: I was singing from a very early age and I
Speaker 2: would just sing a cappella all the time. And so
Speaker 2: my parents saw the need that you know, I was
Speaker 2: asking them to take piano lessons, and so they bought
Speaker 2: a little spin at piano and then I did. I
Speaker 2: don't know my teacher, she kind of taught me boring songs,
Speaker 2: but I would sit there and make things up. But
Speaker 2: it was it was a privilege. It was a luxury
Speaker 2: because neither of my parents ever had a musical lesson,
Speaker 2: and so you know, they kind of spun it that way.
Speaker 2: So it was for me, it was it was fun,
Speaker 2: it was fun to learn. I didn't like I said,
Speaker 2: I didn't love my teacher, and so I very quickly
Speaker 2: used all the money from my eighth grade graduation cards
Speaker 2: and got a guitar and started teaching myself on that started.
Speaker 2: I would always bring my guitar everywhere to all the
Speaker 2: parties and to you know, we would go cruise around
Speaker 2: on these back roads and I would bring the guitar
Speaker 2: in the back of the car and try to learn
Speaker 2: whatever song me and my friends were into, and you know,
Speaker 2: kind of karaoke. It.
Speaker 1: Okay, you didn't grow up in a big town, but
Speaker 1: you know, when I went to high school, there was
Speaker 1: the kid or the multiple kids who played the guitar,
Speaker 1: and when you went to a party, they would play
Speaker 1: were you that kid or were you the wannabe kid?
Speaker 2: I was. I was a bit shy, but I would
Speaker 2: try to break myself out of the shell. Like I said,
Speaker 2: a couple a couple of beers here and there there
Speaker 2: would be I would I would sit around and play
Speaker 2: some songs. But it was like I was learning kind
Speaker 2: of more quiet folky stuff like Pieces of You by
Speaker 2: jewel or you know, like I was saying, like Gillian
Speaker 2: Welch was just massive for me. I was very into
Speaker 2: like the kind of like sad, more quiet. You know.
Speaker 2: There were other people that were like in the school
Speaker 2: that were playing like led Zeppelin, and I would learn
Speaker 2: a couple of chords from them and try to hang
Speaker 2: out with them. But I don't know, I was more
Speaker 2: of a little bit more of a folky Okay.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like Gillian Welch was on the radio. She
Speaker 1: certainly didn't have a hit record. So how did you
Speaker 1: find all this sad music? You know?
Speaker 2: I think word of mouth. Like I remember a friend
Speaker 2: like giving me the Lucinda CD, and that kind of
Speaker 2: opened like a door into music that was not on
Speaker 2: the radio, like I said, the like nineties country that
Speaker 2: a lot of people were listening to. But yeah, it was,
Speaker 2: I mean it was it was massive to I hear
Speaker 2: people writing songs that just felt not like what was
Speaker 2: coming out of you know, the local stations. And I
Speaker 2: didn't really have cable either, but I would go to
Speaker 2: my grandmother's house. I would watch MTV at her house.
Speaker 2: I would also I mean, there were just like music magazines,
Speaker 2: like reading like actually picking up like a copy of
Speaker 2: Rolling Stone and like and waiting for like a CD
Speaker 2: to come out like that was it was huge. And
Speaker 2: then sometimes you know, I would also like make bootleg
Speaker 2: cassettes off of like radio stations and record things so
Speaker 2: I could listen back to it later. But yeah, it
Speaker 2: just seems like a whole different time.
Speaker 1: Now, Okay, what kind of kid were you in high school?
Speaker 1: You obviously had some friends, you run around drinking and drugging,
Speaker 1: But were you like, oh, Margo, yeah, use that odd
Speaker 1: girl in the corner, or you the cheerleader type? What
Speaker 1: kind of kid were you? I was.
Speaker 2: I was a bit preppy because I think that was
Speaker 2: just like the only way to really be accepted in
Speaker 2: my town. It was all about football, American football. And
Speaker 2: I was a cheerleader, and I sang the national anthem
Speaker 2: at like all the football games, all the basketball games.
Speaker 2: I was in choir. And my chorus teacher did not
Speaker 2: give me very many solos. She didn't give me many ensembles,
Speaker 2: she didn't give me many parts at all. Why she said,
Speaker 2: my voice didn't blend and my voice was not a
Speaker 2: good blending voice. And I mean it is like it
Speaker 2: can be a bit waspy, it can really cut through,
Speaker 2: but like, yeah, never until my senior year she me
Speaker 2: the solo at the baccalaureate concert I got to and
Speaker 2: then she gave me the McKinley Award for music like
Speaker 2: my senior year. But like it was, I just felt
Speaker 2: like she did not like me, and so I wanted
Speaker 2: to have more of like a role in the arts world.
Speaker 2: But I just I didn't thrive in there as much
Speaker 2: as I could have. I think, I don't know. I
Speaker 2: did jazz choir, I did show choir. I was always
Speaker 2: doing you know, choir events. But like I said, I
Speaker 2: wasn't getting I wasn't getting the solos, that's for sure.
Speaker 1: Oka Is that because she's a prick or you know?
Speaker 1: Are you the type of person that gets along with everybody?
Speaker 1: Are you the type of person has an agy personality?
Speaker 1: They either like you they don't.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think I'm honestly pretty agreeable, and
Speaker 2: unfortunately I've been a people pleaser just because of sitch
Speaker 2: situations around me growing up and you know, childhood traumas
Speaker 2: and bullshit like that. I I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 2: I did rebel here and there in school, and I
Speaker 2: did run with the rowdy crowd, but I don't know.
Speaker 2: She was also just very tough. She was a really
Speaker 2: tough instructor and I had her all the way from
Speaker 2: sixth grade through to high school. I had another voice teacher.
Speaker 2: Her name was Sue Clark. She taught me mezzo soprano Italian,
Speaker 2: you know, opera style singing. And I was working so hard,
Speaker 2: you know, but the but the vocal coach in my
Speaker 2: high school, she she just did not like me. And
Speaker 2: now she'll say that, you know, she taught me everything
Speaker 2: that I know, and she's always like acts like she
Speaker 2: was always supportive.
Speaker 1: But do you have any contact with her? How do
Speaker 1: you know that.
Speaker 2: I've heard through the grape vine, on the on the
Speaker 2: Facebook or whatever. But I she was like judge Judy.
Speaker 2: She was really tough. She ruled with an iron fist.
Speaker 1: And yeah, but you know, there's this syndrome. Maybe I'm
Speaker 1: beating the dead horse here where the most talented person.
Speaker 1: It's almost like the teacher has to teach that personal
Speaker 1: lesson and put them in their place, kind of getting
Speaker 1: that vibe from you.
Speaker 2: It could have been a bit that it could it
Speaker 2: could have been a little bit of that. I mean
Speaker 2: I definitely can be headstrong and I definitely not shied
Speaker 2: away from opinions that I'm sure lots of people would
Speaker 2: rather me keep my mouth shut. But that's that's the
Speaker 2: good part about me and the bad part.
Speaker 1: Okay, that scene. What kind of academic student were you? I?
Speaker 2: I always had people saying, you're not working up to
Speaker 2: your full potential. You know. It was always daydreams. Applying
Speaker 2: your Yeah, absolutely, I I did. Okay, I I could,
Speaker 2: I could have applied myself more, but I was always
Speaker 2: just like daydreaming and I don't know, chasing boys, hanging
Speaker 2: out with friends.
Speaker 1: And your parents will they give you any guidance telling
Speaker 1: you what to do.
Speaker 2: I was the first born of three girls, and they
Speaker 2: were really tough on me. They were very, very controlling
Speaker 2: and wanted me to be safe all the time. But
Speaker 2: I definitely gave them a run for their money. I
Speaker 2: you know, like I said, I got okay grades, I passed,
Speaker 2: but I was I've always had a rebellious streak. And
Speaker 2: my parents they were always catching me, yeah, drinking, smoking weed,
Speaker 2: whatever it was. They wanted me to just be a good,
Speaker 2: normal kid, and I was like sign number one, like
Speaker 2: she's gonna to be a musician.
Speaker 1: Was it in your DNA? How about boys?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that was That's always been a trouble for me.
Speaker 2: That's always been an issue.
Speaker 1: What does that mean?
Speaker 2: Everybody thinks I'm like a man hater because I'm a feminist,
Speaker 2: but I really I love men way too much. I've
Speaker 2: had well, yeah, my last band, you know, kind of
Speaker 2: broke up because there was there was a lot of
Speaker 2: interpersonal relationships going on. My keyboard player was married to
Speaker 2: my bass player. I had an affair with my guitarist.
Speaker 2: My husband and I stayed, have worked things out. He's
Speaker 2: been my closest collaborator for twenty one years. We've grown
Speaker 2: up together and he's by far my greatest support. And
Speaker 2: I mean we went through a lot of trauma together.
Speaker 2: We lost a child. We were struggling in the music
Speaker 2: business for years. So now it's like we get to
Speaker 2: live out our dreams and write these songs and be
Speaker 2: in Nashville. I'm really lucky he's stuck with me through
Speaker 2: all my all my wild years.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're in a band, you're struggling, and there you know,
Speaker 1: there's a married couple in your band. Do you ever think, well,
Speaker 1: maybe this isn't a good thing to do to have
Speaker 1: an affair or was it something beneath it other than
Speaker 1: you know, we say, I'm going to teach somebody a lesson.
Speaker 1: I'm so frustrated. What was going through your mind?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I, like I said, we had been
Speaker 2: through a major trauma, we lost a child, and things
Speaker 2: were it was just it was a dark time. There
Speaker 2: was too much drinking going on, There was too much drugging.
Speaker 2: There was, like I said, just decades of failure that
Speaker 2: had accrued. And really it was it was just a
Speaker 2: lot of bad decisions leading up to you know what
Speaker 2: completely turned around. I mean, I've I've never been in
Speaker 2: a better place emotionally, artistically, creatively, but I think we
Speaker 2: had to go through that dark time to even you know,
Speaker 2: have the material, the songs, everything that we had. I
Speaker 2: know it sounds like cliche, but I before we had
Speaker 2: those major traumas in our life like this, the songs
Speaker 2: just really weren't as deep because I had not been
Speaker 2: through the struggles that you know are oftentimes fodder for
Speaker 2: for good songs and life lessons and poetry. And yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it's a time that I look back on and
Speaker 2: I you know, I used to be embarrassed of what
Speaker 2: I went through or you know, not want to talk
Speaker 2: about it, but it's it gave give me the outlook
Speaker 2: that I have now. It gave me all the strength
Speaker 2: to get through that time, to just have the character.
Speaker 1: Now, Okay, you had an affair. You ultimately told your husband.
Speaker 1: It sounds like he acted out a little bit. Not
Speaker 1: to mention that. I talk about the death of the child,
Speaker 1: although not that long after the child is born, but
Speaker 1: frequently that breaks up a relationship after people step out,
Speaker 1: how do you rekindle it and how do you rekindle
Speaker 1: the trust?
Speaker 2: It's been it's been a journey for both of us.
Speaker 2: We have done therapy individually together we have I mean,
Speaker 2: we've written songs about it, which is just sounds insane,
Speaker 2: but it's it's all in there if anyone's listening to
Speaker 2: the lyrics, and I think, you know, having very deep talks,
Speaker 2: have having each other's back.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 2: It's you know, any marriage is a lot of work,
Speaker 2: but what we have is just it's so much deeper
Speaker 2: than just just a regular marriage because we are creative partners.
Speaker 2: It's like John and Paul, It's like Robert Hunter and
Speaker 2: the grateful dead. It's like it is like Dave and Gillian,
Speaker 2: where it's like I just I think it took us
Speaker 2: so long to get to this like healthy place that
Speaker 2: we're at now, and it feels like a miracle honestly
Speaker 2: that we got through it, because I think eighty percent
Speaker 2: of people that lose a child are separated, and then
Speaker 2: fifty percent of all marriages in general just end in divorce.
Speaker 2: So I feel like we have like beat the odds
Speaker 2: in just this huge way. And yeah, it's not been easy.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're married to this guy, jereed me. You work
Speaker 1: with them. I mean a lot of people wake up
Speaker 1: in the morning, have breakfast, go to work for six
Speaker 1: or eight hours, come home, they're separate. You're together all
Speaker 1: the time. Doesn't that cause extra friction?
Speaker 2: Well, we do. We do try to take time, whether
Speaker 2: it's like sometimes he's staying home with the children and
Speaker 2: I'm going out on the road by myself and sometimes
Speaker 2: he will take a writing retreat or you know, we
Speaker 2: really do make as Khalil Jabron says, let there be
Speaker 2: spaces in your togetherness, because it's it can be really
Speaker 2: challenging when you're dating one of your band members and
Speaker 2: he's so good. He's like Brian Wilson in the way
Speaker 2: that it's like he just loves to be home. He
Speaker 2: loves to be in the studio, he loves to be writing,
Speaker 2: and and he loves to travel as well. But like,
Speaker 2: you know, there's we've kind of reached this point where
Speaker 2: it's like, okay, like this is what you do, well,
Speaker 2: this is what I do. Well, we're gonna we don't
Speaker 2: always have to be on the road together, like twenty
Speaker 2: four to seven, because it can be really challenging.
Speaker 1: Okay, this is something that comes up. No one really
Speaker 1: made a deep dive in it. Prior to cell phone cameras.
Speaker 1: One of the reasons men got into music was to
Speaker 1: go on the road, drink drug and have sex. I mean,
Speaker 1: the cliche is sex, drugs rock and roll. So what's
Speaker 1: it like being a woman on the road, especially when
Speaker 1: your husband is not there.
Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, in my twenties and in
Speaker 2: my thirties, it was a much different thing than it
Speaker 2: is now. I think I'm I don't know, I'm a
Speaker 2: little more focused on like using my free time to
Speaker 2: write songs or work on a book, write haikus, and
Speaker 2: go to vintage stores. And you know, I mean I
Speaker 2: definitely was in the phase where it would be like
Speaker 2: after the show, you went out and you went to
Speaker 2: another bar and you know, hang out, talk to fans,
Speaker 2: talk to friends, talk to other bands. I mean it's
Speaker 2: still it's still is, you know, traveling and being out.
Speaker 2: But I think I think that there's such a misconception
Speaker 2: sometimes with touring that it's like the backstage is much
Speaker 2: more sexy than it is. It's like, oh, it's really
Speaker 2: just a bunch of crew guys pushing around heavy shit
Speaker 2: and everybody's like back there, you know, waiting to use
Speaker 2: a shower or I don't know, it's it's not as
Speaker 2: sexy as maybe it used to be. I mean, it
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that I'm totally sober and there's not any
Speaker 2: fun times, because they're definitely is fun times. And sometimes
Speaker 2: I do still party, but I just have to really
Speaker 2: like plan my partying.
Speaker 1: Okay, you've been at this for a couple of decades.
Speaker 1: What's it like being an attractive, successful woman on the road.
Speaker 1: I mean, men have groupies. Do you have guys that
Speaker 1: you have to keep at arm's length? We read about,
Speaker 1: you know, the stalkers of Taylor Swift, and other people.
Speaker 1: What's the experience for you.
Speaker 2: I definitely have to be careful about opening up my dms.
Speaker 2: Sometimes you don't know what people are going to send you,
Speaker 2: but I just try not to do that anyway. I think,
Speaker 2: you know, I do like to protect my privacy. I
Speaker 2: I like to have someone out there with me that
Speaker 2: can give a little muscle and keep me safe for sure.
Speaker 2: But I think for the most part, I have I
Speaker 2: have some really great fans, and I have a lot
Speaker 2: of people that I think that come out to my
Speaker 2: shows and the thing that they want. I do a
Speaker 2: lot of Like when I do my headlining tour, I'll
Speaker 2: do meet and greets and do like a VIP package,
Speaker 2: and really it's supposed to be me just singing a
Speaker 2: couple of songs and take a group photo, but I
Speaker 2: always end up meeting. If there's time, I'll try to
Speaker 2: meet everyone individually, take a photo with everyone individually, talk
Speaker 2: to folks, and I think, you know, really they I
Speaker 2: have a lot of people that want to trauma bond
Speaker 2: with me, and they want to share their story. You know,
Speaker 2: I lost this person, Oh I lost my husband, and
Speaker 2: you know, we used to come to your shows or
Speaker 2: I mean there's just people love to share their stories
Speaker 2: of what they went through and how my songs helped
Speaker 2: them through it. So a lot of times I feel
Speaker 2: like it's a more innocent every now and then, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you get the swinger couple that comes up, Oh my
Speaker 2: husband's get out of jail free card, or you know,
Speaker 2: like you've got people want me to sign their boobs
Speaker 2: or yeah, sign other areas of their body. But like
Speaker 2: I said, I always have I always have someone there
Speaker 2: with me to kind of make sure that I'm that
Speaker 2: I'm safe.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to the narrative. So you're singing
Speaker 1: in high school, you get this McKinley award, I think
Speaker 1: you said, and what's the dream? Then at what point
Speaker 1: do you say, hmmm, this music thing, this is what
Speaker 1: I want to do.
Speaker 2: I was really young when I first started saying I
Speaker 2: wanted to be an actress or I wanted to be
Speaker 2: a singer and career day I remember that came about
Speaker 2: and I had like the guidance counselor at school say like,
Speaker 2: oh no, you you can't be a singer. That's not
Speaker 2: a career. And I feel like, from the age of
Speaker 2: like twelve thirteen on, I always wanted to prove it
Speaker 2: to people. It was like, oh, okay, because my mom
Speaker 2: was there saying, no, you can, you can do that.
Speaker 2: If that's what you want to do, you can absolutely
Speaker 2: do that. But really it was when I took this
Speaker 2: massive mushroom trip on psilocybin. I was eighteen years old.
Speaker 2: I was in college, and I took an eighth of
Speaker 2: mushrooms and just completely went to outer space. And as
Speaker 2: I came back down, I realized that I didn't want
Speaker 2: to be living in the Midwest anymore. I did not
Speaker 2: want to study communications or Spanish or whatever. And I
Speaker 2: visited Nashville during spring break of my sophomore year and
Speaker 2: then dropped out of school, moved to Nashville, and just
Speaker 2: started signing up for every like open mic right night. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that was the real turning point. Was like eighteen nineteen.
Speaker 1: Okay, you were in college at first, you were a cheerleader.
Speaker 1: What was your college experience like before you did drop out.
Speaker 2: I was excelling in Spanish. I had changed my major
Speaker 2: from communications to art and dance in theater, so I
Speaker 2: was taking a lot of ballet classes, a lot of
Speaker 2: modern dance like Martha Graham, Bob Fosse type dance and
Speaker 2: theater and all of that. It was good, but I
Speaker 2: was still it was really just kind of purposeless. I
Speaker 2: was partying a lot. I was just drinking way too much.
Speaker 2: I ended up getting alcohol poisoning sophomore year and they
Speaker 2: hauled me off to the hospital. It was I was
Speaker 2: driftless and just experimenting with a lot of substances. But
Speaker 2: I met a lot of really cool people that were
Speaker 2: into great music and we would get together and hang
Speaker 2: out and jam and so that side of everything was growing,
Speaker 2: just musically, and you know, I'd go over and like
Speaker 2: sit behind a drum kit and play with people and
Speaker 2: try to learn songs. I met some friends that were
Speaker 2: also writing songs and we would we would, you know,
Speaker 2: swap lyrics and music and everything. But it was, yeah,
Speaker 2: the schooling part was just really boring to me. It
Speaker 2: was really just more about the socializing and and.
Speaker 1: That's where college is. But whatever, what did your parents
Speaker 1: say when you said you were going to drop out?
Speaker 2: They thought it was crazy, and they they wanted me
Speaker 2: to finish college because you know, like I said, that
Speaker 2: a luxury that my mom graduated college, but my dad
Speaker 2: never did. Nobody on his side of the family did,
Speaker 2: and so he was really frustrated with me. I thought
Speaker 2: it was just a crazy idea to move to Nashville.
Speaker 2: And I didn't even want to be a country singer.
Speaker 2: I just wanted to be a songwriter. Nashville Star was
Speaker 2: like all the rage at that time, and it was
Speaker 2: just I didn't like anything that I heard. I don't
Speaker 2: like any of the poppy country stuff and I still don't.
Speaker 2: And I but there was this other scene that was
Speaker 2: going on at the time in Nashville, and it was
Speaker 2: like down by like exit in and Elliston Place, and
Speaker 2: it was like called the Rock Block at the time.
Speaker 2: And so between that and then just going to the
Speaker 2: open mic like Writers' Nights and hearing people that were
Speaker 2: just really good songwriters, you know. I mean some of
Speaker 2: them probably had cuts and had hits, but I don't know.
Speaker 2: I really wanted to move to New York or California,
Speaker 2: and my parents were like, no way, you don't know
Speaker 2: how to drive in in that kind of traffic, Like
Speaker 2: you just need to go here because it's closer. And
Speaker 2: so's it's really funny that I ended up making country
Speaker 2: music after all, but not the kind of country music
Speaker 2: that you know, like was thriving in the nineties in
Speaker 2: the two thousands, I just I didn't. I didn't like
Speaker 2: Nashville Star, I didn't like I didn't like American idol.
Speaker 2: I didn't I know what I don't like.
Speaker 1: Okay, you come to Nashville, put it mildly. You don't
Speaker 1: have any success, Okay, and in the back of your
Speaker 1: mind you say, shit, maybe I should go back to college.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's the Bruce Springsteen live album where his
Speaker 1: mother says, you know, you can still go back to college.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I thought about all sorts of different ways I
Speaker 2: could pivot my career to be a photographer for pivot
Speaker 2: my career to you know, still do something artistic. And
Speaker 2: and I was teaching a lot of children at the time.
Speaker 2: I was the director of like the dance program, and
Speaker 2: and I could incorporate music in those ways, like I
Speaker 2: would choreograph like ballets to like Sid Barrett and like
Speaker 2: the Beatles and really weird songs like you know, Brian
Speaker 2: Wilson's like Smile, Like that's that's good music for like
Speaker 2: children's tap dances. But so I had I had that
Speaker 2: like as a creative outlet. But I definitely didn't feel fulfilled,
Speaker 2: and people asked, especially when I got pregnant, it was like, okay,
Speaker 2: now you're going to give it up right, like it's
Speaker 2: been a decade, like nothing's happening for you. And I
Speaker 2: just we just kept going. I just kept barreling ahead.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back at chatter. We have two sisters.
Speaker 1: Did they go to finish college? What are they up to?
Speaker 2: So my the middle sister is a very successful business woman,
Speaker 2: and she had a BMW and a nice house and
Speaker 2: a hot tub, and and here I'm living in Squalor,
Speaker 2: you know, three years older than her. I've got like
Speaker 2: rats in my house and you know, just everything in
Speaker 2: the house is from a thrift store. And so yeah,
Speaker 2: my middle sister has always been just like business savvy,
Speaker 2: good with money, computer science, brain. My youngest sister, she's
Speaker 2: kind of an artist like me. She's a dancer and
Speaker 2: she's traveled the world and performed and done stuff with
Speaker 2: video and television and all sorts of different things. But
Speaker 2: uh yeah, I'm the oldest, the oldest of three.
Speaker 1: Okay, you go back to your hometown, your family, your relatives,
Speaker 1: the people you grew up with. Are they respect and
Speaker 1: into your success or there's someone putting you down because
Speaker 1: you've got out.
Speaker 2: It's a combination of both. Yeah, I hate it when
Speaker 2: people think I'm like too good for them, because I
Speaker 2: really have tried to remain true to who I am.
Speaker 2: But I think, yeah, you know, it's when you've got
Speaker 2: a large group of people who never got away, who've
Speaker 2: never seen anything else, there is going to be a
Speaker 2: little bit of a level of that. But also, I
Speaker 2: mean when I go back to my hometown, it's like
Speaker 2: I am such a celebrity there. There's like a sign
Speaker 2: when you come into town. It's like home of Margot
Speaker 2: Price and right by the football sign, you know, Big
Speaker 2: ten you know, state champs these years. And then also
Speaker 2: home of Susie Bogas also is from my hometown. She's
Speaker 2: a nineties country star. So I go there, I go
Speaker 2: to you know, go to the grocery store, and people
Speaker 2: people are proud of me. People are proud of me
Speaker 2: there too.
Speaker 1: Wait, wait, how many people live in this town?
Speaker 2: Like less than four thousand for sure.
Speaker 1: And there's a sign, a permanent sign this is home
Speaker 1: of Margot Brice. Yeah, I mean it's kind of like
Speaker 1: a star on Hollywood Boulevard. How does that even happen
Speaker 1: it is.
Speaker 2: I don't know, I have no idea. I I feel
Speaker 2: really lucky that, you know, I've I've got people there
Speaker 2: that do support me. And my mom too. She was
Speaker 2: a teacher in the town and she's like a celebrity
Speaker 2: too because she taught third grade for years. She taught,
Speaker 2: so it's like I always we would be, you know,
Speaker 2: at the grocery store, and people would be coming up
Speaker 2: to my mom and saying, oh, she was my favorite teacher.
Speaker 2: She changed my life, you know. And and my grandma
Speaker 2: still lives there, and there's a local radio station and
Speaker 2: they for me, And yeah, I do love to go
Speaker 2: to go back home. I didn't get to go to
Speaker 2: my high school graduation. I wanted to go there because
Speaker 2: I know there were a lot of people that shit
Speaker 2: talked me, and it would be it would be good
Speaker 2: to see some people. But I had a show. I
Speaker 2: couldn't go back.
Speaker 1: You mean the reunion, just to be.
Speaker 2: Clear, reunion. Oh yeah, what did I say?
Speaker 1: Okay, you move to Nashville, you live with the relative,
Speaker 1: then you live with an old college buddy. And these
Speaker 1: are not placid situations. I mean, you know, they both
Speaker 1: turned bad. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my cousin. I'm a bit estranged from her, but
Speaker 2: she used to be pretty well connected in the music business.
Speaker 2: She well, she was dating one of the Whalers at
Speaker 2: least from Bob Marley and the Whalers, and so she
Speaker 2: got me into some cool concerts when I moved here.
Speaker 2: But she's a very strong personality and has some substance
Speaker 2: substance issues as well. So yeah, lived with her didn't
Speaker 2: work out. Lived with another roommate who ended up kind
Speaker 2: of leaving with some of my possessions, and have not
Speaker 2: spoken to her in twenty years, I you know, I think.
Speaker 2: Then after that, I moved in with Jeremy and we've
Speaker 2: been living together since then pretty much on and off.
Speaker 2: But we were terrible roommates with each other too, because
Speaker 2: we would be really bad about paying our bills and
Speaker 2: always getting the electricity shut off, always getting the water
Speaker 2: shut off. So yeah, he's been my roommate for the
Speaker 2: for the last twenty But it's those early years were crazy.
Speaker 2: I was just working any odd job that I could.
Speaker 2: I was. There was a couple of times where we
Speaker 2: just didn't even have anywhere to be, and I made
Speaker 2: friends with an old Vietnam Vet out at Percy Priest
Speaker 2: Park out here in Tennessee, and I would go park
Speaker 2: my car out there in camp and live with this guy.
Speaker 2: I would bring him weed and we were buds. So
Speaker 2: there were a lot of people who got me through
Speaker 2: those early years, just like crashing on friends' couches, staying
Speaker 2: on there and their cabins, and then we would return
Speaker 2: the favor too. And like Brittany Howard Alabama, sheiks they
Speaker 2: crashed with us, My friends the Deslons, they're a New
Speaker 2: Orleans band. Also my friend a Linda from Hoay for
Speaker 2: the riff Raft. There was just like a a community
Speaker 2: of all of us crashing and lifting each other up.
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's basically about the decade before there's any
Speaker 1: real success. How often did you say you referenced it earlier,
Speaker 1: but going a little deeper, I'm going to give up.
Speaker 1: And what kept you going, man?
Speaker 2: I I think just pure insanity. I mean, it's what
Speaker 2: do they say, like when you do the same thing
Speaker 2: over and over and like you don't get another outcome.
Speaker 2: That's that's what was happening. But you know, I had
Speaker 2: never really made a country record, and I think it
Speaker 2: was just again like jumping genres and just reinventing and
Speaker 2: thinking like, okay, well I've been in these bands, but
Speaker 2: I haven't put out a solo record. I well, let's.
Speaker 1: Be let's be clear. You're making records that get no
Speaker 1: distribution in a pre streaming era. Okay, So I want
Speaker 1: to give the people impression you're making records and to
Speaker 1: get and review whatever. You are living way off the
Speaker 1: music radar. Okay, so what is going through your mind?
Speaker 1: It is a long way from you know, the Liverpool
Speaker 1: Dock to the Hollywood Bowl. I mean, you really think
Speaker 1: you're gonna make it?
Speaker 2: I know, I know. I think it was just I
Speaker 2: don't know really. When we made Midwest Farmer's Daughter, it
Speaker 2: was like this is our one last ditch effort, because
Speaker 2: it was like, all right, we're pouring a lot of
Speaker 2: money into making these records, like how many times can
Speaker 2: we sell everything we own? How many times can we
Speaker 2: like move in with my parents and you know, save
Speaker 2: money and then make another record, and also just going
Speaker 2: out on tours and having and hemorrhaging money. And I
Speaker 2: think it was just, you know, Jeremy was like, no,
Speaker 2: we got we're writing the best songs right now. We
Speaker 2: kind of looked at it like the whole time we
Speaker 2: were just learning the craft, you know, all those records
Speaker 2: leading up to Midwest. Farmer's daughter was like, no, we
Speaker 2: were just learning how to write. Like this is where
Speaker 2: it's just getting good. And so it was him being like,
Speaker 2: I'm going to sell the car. You are going to
Speaker 2: make this record, and someone's gonna put it out. I think.
Speaker 2: You know, my friend Sturgel Simpson, he was he was
Speaker 2: taking off right around that time, and he had also
Speaker 2: been in the trenches of just like you know, having
Speaker 2: an unsuccessful career and seeing how hungry the masses were
Speaker 2: for something that wasn't like of the Nashville machine, was like, okay,
Speaker 2: Like if he can do it, I think I can
Speaker 2: do it, you know. So it was just those little
Speaker 2: moments of like, there were so many times where I
Speaker 2: almost gave up. I remember one time I played a
Speaker 2: show at the Five Spot and guitarist Kenny Vaughan was there.
Speaker 2: And you know, Kenny has played with Marty Stewart for
Speaker 2: years and he's legendary guitar picker in Nashville, and he
Speaker 2: came up to me after the set and he was like,
Speaker 2: that was an incredible show. He's like, you've got it.
Speaker 2: He's like, whatever it is, you've got it, Like, don't
Speaker 2: give up, and like he right when he said that.
Speaker 2: It was like I really needed it that month. I
Speaker 2: really did. I remember just feeling like that was one
Speaker 2: of those times where I was just I was out
Speaker 2: of mustering the strength myself. There was another time I
Speaker 2: played a show with Jasonisboll and he had just you know,
Speaker 2: got off the ground with like Southeastern and everything, and
Speaker 2: he also came up to me and like gave me
Speaker 2: some words of encouragement that I just really needed at
Speaker 2: the time. And so it was all just blind faith
Speaker 2: and uh yeah, like I said, a little bit of stupidity,
Speaker 2: a little bit of like naivity, and just a lot
Speaker 2: of stubbornness.
Speaker 1: Okay, you know, I've been in Nashville a few times.
Speaker 1: I'm not Nashville fluent, but people think, I mean, Nashville's
Speaker 1: really bustling as a metropolis right now. But people think
Speaker 1: in the music business, oh, you go, there's a coterie
Speaker 1: of people, there's pickers, you work on records, and you
Speaker 1: have these writing sessions. You were like off the grid
Speaker 1: in another fucking world. I mean, did you feel like, oh,
Speaker 1: fuck that. Or I mean the way you know you
Speaker 1: talk about it, you might as well be living in
Speaker 1: you know, Oklahoma. You know, there were a few more clubs,
Speaker 1: But did you feel like, you know, well, we're in Nashville,
Speaker 1: somehow this works, or you had disdain for the Nashville system.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like everybody you were hanging with
Speaker 1: broke through.
Speaker 2: No, absolutely not. I've seen a lot of really talented
Speaker 2: people give it up. I think it's I think it's
Speaker 2: so funny that the people in Nashville that ended up
Speaker 2: breaking me were a couple guys from Detroit. You know.
Speaker 2: It's like Jack White and Ben Swank and Ben Blackwell,
Speaker 2: like they were the people that finally like saw something
Speaker 2: in me, and I had been trying to kind of
Speaker 2: get through to them for a while. There was like
Speaker 2: years prior, I had dropped off these series of gifts
Speaker 2: that had riddles written on cards that were for Jack,
Speaker 2: and it was like bizarre objects and things that I thought, okay,
Speaker 2: like if I could get third man into what I'm doing,
Speaker 2: because I knew that they were not, you know, they
Speaker 2: weren't releasing the homogenized vanilla catfish dinner that they saw
Speaker 2: all done on Music Row, they were you know, doing
Speaker 2: things that were more rooted. And I especially that Jack
Speaker 2: White album with Loretta Lynn, Like that album was so
Speaker 2: cool to me. It was like, I don't know, I there,
Speaker 2: Like there is is this other side of Nashville that's
Speaker 2: always going on. It's like little clubs, cool places. There's
Speaker 2: great songwriters and they're not always breaking through, but it
Speaker 2: but it exists. And like we had this really strong
Speaker 2: click of like it was a few bands and we
Speaker 2: would just play shows together and do our thing and
Speaker 2: share what we were writing with each other. And it
Speaker 2: was like and we don't need to go, you know,
Speaker 2: down to Music Row and co write with all these
Speaker 2: people that like are just writing the same song over
Speaker 2: and over. Like there was a younger, hipper thing going
Speaker 2: on in East Nashville. And I'm I'm so lucky that
Speaker 2: it was there when it was, because it kept me
Speaker 2: going again for a few years, just because it was like,
Speaker 2: all right, we might all be underdogs and we might
Speaker 2: all be losers, but we're here together and we knew
Speaker 2: we were better than half the shit they were pumping
Speaker 2: out on the radio. Anyway.
Speaker 1: Okay, you cut Midwest farmer's daughter, you know your husband says,
Speaker 1: we got to give it one more shot. You said earlier.
Speaker 1: This is, you know, really the last shot. It's not
Speaker 1: like it's embraced immediately.
Speaker 2: It was rejected by every label in town, big and small.
Speaker 2: I sent it to people in England. I sent it
Speaker 2: to people in New York. I mean I was just
Speaker 2: scouring the web for like any indie label, you know,
Speaker 2: like how do we get this out? And rejection after
Speaker 2: rejection came, and it was about a year of just
Speaker 2: sitting on that record and being in complete purgatory. It
Speaker 2: was like, man, maybe we really did blow this, Like
Speaker 2: we shouldn't have sold the car. We shouldn't have like
Speaker 2: pawned all of our recording equipment and guitars and jewelry,
Speaker 2: and I mean it was it was brutal. And you know,
Speaker 2: some of those record labels and that the replies that
Speaker 2: they would give me were just insane. One of them
Speaker 2: was like, oh, we we would love to sign Margo,
Speaker 2: but we already have two girls on our label, so
Speaker 2: we can't. And now I won't say that label's name,
Speaker 2: but they've got many girls and they're all doing well.
Speaker 2: I remember another one, Oh, we're aware of who Margo is.
Speaker 2: And we're just not interested. It was like they didn't
Speaker 2: even listen to it. That was a distribution company. I
Speaker 2: mean I woke up sometimes I would read those emails
Speaker 2: before I got out of bed in the morning, and
Speaker 2: it would just send me like down a drinking spiral.
Speaker 2: It was like, well, I've got to go out and
Speaker 2: get smashed because people still hate me. So glad I
Speaker 2: don't have to live like that anymore. Like now, when
Speaker 2: I get a rejection, I just like just go through
Speaker 2: the feeling and it's done. But that it was a
Speaker 2: really dark period.
Speaker 1: Really was okay, how do you end up getting a
Speaker 1: nibble from Marca? And the ultimately saying no.
Speaker 2: From RCA?
Speaker 1: Was it RCA? There's one label said they wanted to change.
Speaker 2: It was Sony, Right. Yeah. I had a friend who
Speaker 2: her name was Jenny, and she knew some people in
Speaker 2: it Sony, and she sent it in and we typed
Speaker 2: a really great letter with it, and yeah, they said
Speaker 2: come in and we want to hear you play a
Speaker 2: couple of these songs with us. And so I go
Speaker 2: into Sony's office and sitting up there and they had
Speaker 2: been going through like a their CEO had just left
Speaker 2: and it was like who's steering the ship kind of thing.
Speaker 2: But yeah, they said, we love the album, but we
Speaker 2: wondered if you had some stuff that sounded just a
Speaker 2: little bit like poppier. We wanted to take off the
Speaker 2: fiddle and change the walking bassline on this and this
Speaker 2: and this and what about. I'm like, oh, no, you
Speaker 2: want like more of a rock leaning thing. I was
Speaker 2: just doing that with Buffalo cli Over, But like, this
Speaker 2: is what I'm doing now, this is the thing that
Speaker 2: you guys need. And they yeah, they didn't. They didn't
Speaker 2: understand what they had. They didn't understand what it was.
Speaker 2: I think they liked the song four Years of Chances,
Speaker 2: which was like the kind of more like Memphis leaning
Speaker 2: soul funk like vibe, but yeah, the rest of it,
Speaker 2: they wanted to change all of it, and I just
Speaker 2: I just walked away and I said, I'm sorry, I'm
Speaker 2: not changing it. I'm just gonna hold out to see
Speaker 2: if anybody else wants it.
Speaker 1: Well, just to be clear, was it discussions and they
Speaker 1: were way off base or were they saying we want
Speaker 1: to sign you, but you have to be different.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was. They were definitely interested, and
Speaker 2: they definitely liked some of what they heard on the album,
Speaker 2: but they were like, we would want to take these
Speaker 2: back into the studio and do this, this, this with them,
Speaker 2: And I just was like, I don't. I don't think
Speaker 2: that's the direction you guys need to go. But I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're in a mirror meeting with these guys, the suits,
Speaker 1: so to speak. You know, not only you're saying, hey, man,
Speaker 1: I don't want to change a fucking note on this record,
Speaker 1: you're also telling them, hey, you guys don't know what's
Speaker 1: going on. Okay. Was this a friendly conversation or was
Speaker 1: it like a standoffish conversation?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean they were technically being friendly to me.
Speaker 2: I guess I'm talking about you to them. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: don't think I was being very friendly. Probably, I think
Speaker 2: I walked out of there and you're probably like, who
Speaker 2: the hell was she? What's her? What's her deal? I
Speaker 2: think I remember walking in that day and the person
Speaker 2: at the front desk said, are you the next Taylor Swift?
Speaker 2: And Taylor who? And there was like, you know, there
Speaker 2: was like Carrie Underwood and Miranda Lambert were lake up
Speaker 2: on the walls, and I was like, I just didn't
Speaker 2: feel like I was in the right place from the
Speaker 2: get go. Okay, so yeah, how.
Speaker 1: Do you end up? And how much time does it
Speaker 1: take for third Man to say yes?
Speaker 2: So I had friends that knew people that worked at
Speaker 2: Third Man. But I think that I got on the
Speaker 2: radar by a Rolling Stone article that was written about
Speaker 2: me that said it sounded like Loretta Lynn or Jack
Speaker 2: White produced Loretta Lynn. It's they made that comparison. But
Speaker 2: I went in.
Speaker 1: I was the wait time out, time out here, nobody
Speaker 1: from nowhere. How does Rolling Stone write an article about you?
Speaker 2: Well, they came out. They saw this show that I
Speaker 2: played at the Basement East was opening for a guy
Speaker 2: named J. P. Harris and I played since You Put
Speaker 2: Me Down? I played her on the Bottle. I played
Speaker 2: pretty much, you know, half the songs that are on
Speaker 2: Midwest Farmer's Daughter, and had a really great show. And
Speaker 2: this guy walked up to me. He said, I'm Joe Hudek.
Speaker 2: I just I had just moved here. I'm a writer
Speaker 2: at Rolling Stone. When's your album coming out? And I
Speaker 2: was like, I can't even get anyone to put it out?
Speaker 2: And he was like, okay, I got to write a
Speaker 2: story about you. You're like Nashville's best kept secret. And
Speaker 2: so he wrote that article for me and like that
Speaker 2: it really did. It changed things for me. And I
Speaker 2: don't know if careers are like that anymore. I don't
Speaker 2: know that anybody even reads. But you know, back in
Speaker 2: the day, that was like it was a huge thing.
Speaker 2: It was just like it was a rolling stone headline.
Speaker 2: It made it made waves, and I went in there
Speaker 2: and yes, just started kind of talking to the guys
Speaker 2: at Third Man.
Speaker 1: The article is printed. It's one of the few times
Speaker 1: you have hope with something and it pays off. Are
Speaker 1: an other people look for you after that article comes out?
Speaker 2: Yeah there, I mean at that point then it was like, okay,
Speaker 2: now the booking agencies are coming around management and stuff
Speaker 2: as well, because before it was like nobody wanted to
Speaker 2: touch me with a ten foot pull. So yeah, that
Speaker 2: article from Joe Hudak, it just it gave me some clout,
Speaker 2: you know, it gave me. It gave me Yeah, just
Speaker 2: like the all right, they've got my back. They're saying
Speaker 2: this is worthwhile. And yeah, that was that was the
Speaker 2: start of things turning around. That was the start.
Speaker 1: Okay, so tell the third Man story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So third man, like I said I had. I
Speaker 2: had run into Jack White in the past. I ran
Speaker 2: into him once in a parking lot, probably ten years
Speaker 2: just signing signing with them. But I knew a friend
Speaker 2: who knew Ben Swank who worked there, and he's like,
Speaker 2: we got to get Ben out to a show. He's
Speaker 2: got to see you live. He's got to Once they
Speaker 2: see you live, they're going to be into it. So
Speaker 2: he came out, we met, we talked. Then it was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you got it. You should come in and they've got
Speaker 2: to direct to Acetate recording set up there, you know,
Speaker 2: where they can immediately press anything to a record.
Speaker 1: And so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a long time though of really making
Speaker 2: the all the dots connect because they were so busy
Speaker 2: and I would like show up there and I would
Speaker 2: be like can I come in for a meeting today,
Speaker 2: and they'd be like, oh, we're kind of busy. I
Speaker 2: mean really, it was a long process, and I felt
Speaker 2: like they also wanted to like almost just like do
Speaker 2: a screening process with other people to like make sure
Speaker 2: I wasn't a diva or like it was just like
Speaker 2: I can't explain it, but there were so many little
Speaker 2: things that happened prior to getting some and like going
Speaker 2: in and singing on their direct to acetate thing and
Speaker 2: later finding out Jack was like watching from behind a
Speaker 2: two way mirror and like listening to me singing live
Speaker 2: to also prove like, okay, she made this record, it's
Speaker 2: not all auto tuned, like she can actually sing.
Speaker 1: Well. How long from when that article Hudec wrote till
Speaker 1: the ink was dry at third Man?
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I would have to go sit
Speaker 2: down and do the math. But I would think maybe
Speaker 2: like six to eight months.
Speaker 1: Okay, So okay, with six to eight months, they knew
Speaker 1: who you were, they'd heard the record, you came in
Speaker 1: and saying live. If you didn't bug them and show
Speaker 1: up and say I'm here for a meeting, would it
Speaker 1: have happened?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I would like to think that it would,
Speaker 2: but I mean, like I said, I was just kind
Speaker 2: of relentless. I would just go in there and let's
Speaker 2: let's talk, you know, let's sit down and have a
Speaker 2: meeting and and and finally it you know, it did happen.
Speaker 2: But it's they're they're busy people. They've got you know,
Speaker 2: they're putting out Jack stuff. They're doing his his thing,
Speaker 2: and I, yeah, I really I wanted it. I was hungry.
Speaker 2: I was in there. I was like, this is the
Speaker 2: album cover I have, this is you know, here's the
Speaker 2: songs they're done. This is like really the only thing
Speaker 2: they helped me with was sequencing and getting it all
Speaker 2: in the in the right order. And they're obviously the
Speaker 2: people that that do their album artwork. They made like
Speaker 2: the most beautiful package they had, Like you could plant
Speaker 2: pieces of the lyrics and it would grow wild flowers,
Speaker 2: and like they really put a lot of care into
Speaker 2: making that album like come to life in the way
Speaker 2: that it did.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's be very clear. Six months, we're calling it relentless.
Speaker 1: How many times a week would you show up or
Speaker 1: call or email or what?
Speaker 2: Yeah, a couple of times a week I would I
Speaker 2: would email, I would try to call, and then sometimes
Speaker 2: like I would just show up there and go into
Speaker 2: the record store and there's a back area that I
Speaker 2: was trying to get into, and yeah, it would be like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: we can't do it today, but you know, come back,
Speaker 2: come back next week and we'll try to get a
Speaker 2: meeting set up. And I mean, I was definitely getting
Speaker 2: a little frustrated, but they were really nice. And you know,
Speaker 2: my husband would be like, Okay, just go back and again,
Speaker 2: We'll just go every day. He would drive me up
Speaker 2: there and I would get all dressed up and I
Speaker 2: go in and try to talk about how we were
Speaker 2: going to take over the world, and then eventually it worked.
Speaker 1: I mean, is this your personality? If you want something,
Speaker 1: You're going to show up a million times?
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, I am. I'm not going to take no
Speaker 2: FURNI sir, I am a little relentless in retrospect.
Speaker 1: Were they always going to sign you or Dier? It
Speaker 1: feel like they finally relented.
Speaker 2: I think they were very into the record, but they
Speaker 2: had never put out somebody who wasn't already established. Like
Speaker 2: my lawyer kept telling me that. My lawyer, Kent Marcus,
Speaker 2: he was the only person I had on my team
Speaker 2: at that time, and he would say, Third Man doesn't
Speaker 2: do album deals. They just don't. They just do these singles.
Speaker 2: They do legacy artists, they do Neil Young, they do
Speaker 2: Loretta Lynn. They'll put out something with Willie Nelson, But
Speaker 2: they're not going to put your record out. And I
Speaker 2: was like, no, no, no, like they are. I think
Speaker 2: they're into it. I really think they are. And I
Speaker 2: mean so it was like we made history. They they
Speaker 2: had never broken an artist the way that they broke me,
Speaker 2: and I feel so grateful. I mean it was like
Speaker 2: even just getting that album on the charts. I'd never
Speaker 2: had a single that hit the charts, and then the
Speaker 2: album like made it into the top ten. That was
Speaker 2: like broke a Billboard record.
Speaker 1: Okay, but you ultimately switched to Loma Vista, then you
Speaker 1: feel some sort of allegiance what happened there.
Speaker 2: I did switch labels, and I did have I mean,
Speaker 2: I've remained friends with everyone at Third Man, and you know,
Speaker 2: I tried to put all these clauses in, like Okay,
Speaker 2: well I want them to press my albums, you know,
Speaker 2: like I want them to do the vinyl part of it.
Speaker 2: I still wanted them to be involved, but ultimately it
Speaker 2: was just I needed a contract. I needed to get
Speaker 2: back to work. Loma Vista was there. They came in
Speaker 2: and so yeah, that's that's been where I where I've
Speaker 2: been at. But I I still, I mean, third Man
Speaker 2: is like like family there.
Speaker 1: You know, Okay, did third Man say wait a second, don't.
Speaker 2: Go You know, no one's ever asked me these questions
Speaker 2: point blank. You're making me hard to dance around it.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, they they maybe they wanted me
Speaker 2: to stay. I think they maybe they did, but I
Speaker 2: just needed more bandwidth. They just needed to be able to,
Speaker 2: you know, to continue to grow. And I actually I
Speaker 2: was just in third Man just Friday. My guitar played
Speaker 2: my new guitar player. He played a show there, and
Speaker 2: I went in and and hung out with Ben Swank,
Speaker 2: and I just played a festival, and I just watched
Speaker 2: Jack shred side stage. And you know, every time I
Speaker 2: see them, we always have a great conversation, and I
Speaker 2: wouldn't put it out of you know that we would
Speaker 2: work together again in the future. I love them like
Speaker 2: family and I owe them so much.
Speaker 1: Okay, they ultimately signed the record, which hasn't changed from
Speaker 1: when you cut it in Memphis. Hudeck has written the
Speaker 1: article what did they do, if anything, to break you
Speaker 1: other than put the record out?
Speaker 2: Well, like I said, everybody that worked there was just
Speaker 2: so wildly creative, and they always had great ideas of
Speaker 2: how we could get good exposure, make a splash. There
Speaker 2: was like a time during Americana Fest week that I
Speaker 2: was up for a couple awards and didn't end up
Speaker 2: walking home with anything. Not many women did that year.
Speaker 2: It was a very male dominated year. And then we
Speaker 2: just decided we were like, you know what, let's do
Speaker 2: a concert on the Third Man rooftop, and we can't.
Speaker 2: We pulled a Beatles and we went up there and
Speaker 2: did a concert from the roof. And they always had
Speaker 2: incredible ideas for like gear marketing and going in and
Speaker 2: you know, like even papering a town with it was
Speaker 2: just yeah, it was always attention to detail.
Speaker 1: Okay, those were all very innovative. In some case grassroots.
Speaker 1: That doesn't drive your record to top ten, So what
Speaker 1: accounted for we'll call it commercial, But just being on
Speaker 1: the national radar, having people listen, having radio play it.
Speaker 1: How did that happen?
Speaker 2: Your guess is as good as mine. I think just
Speaker 2: having like third Man in my corner, it just gave
Speaker 2: me cool points. And people just wanted us to come
Speaker 2: play their TV shows. I mean we really we the
Speaker 2: band and I had been working so hard at refining
Speaker 2: our sounds, making that live show fun to watch and
Speaker 2: road tight, and we've played this south By Southwest, that
Speaker 2: south By Southwest season. I guess It would have been
Speaker 2: March of twenty fifteen or twenty maybe it was twenty sixteen.
Speaker 2: We had Saturday Night live. Bookers came out watched my
Speaker 2: set at Stubbs, just watched me in the band play
Speaker 2: and they were like, your band is incredible, we want
Speaker 2: to book you. And so, you know, a lot of
Speaker 2: it was just having the cool points of Third Man
Speaker 2: having Jack in my corner, but then a lot of
Speaker 2: it was just us going out and playing shows and
Speaker 2: and promoters and bookers seeing it and digging it and
Speaker 2: wanting to share their stage with us.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you make a deal with third Man, you
Speaker 1: have the lawyer of a long standing how do you
Speaker 1: get a manager and an agent?
Speaker 2: Ultimately, Yeah, I had been begging people to manage me,
Speaker 2: and then suddenly it was like they all came running
Speaker 2: at the same time. I went out to a lot
Speaker 2: of different meetings with a lot of different folks and
Speaker 2: ended up signing with Jack's management, who they put me
Speaker 2: up at Chateau Vermont. I had never been in a
Speaker 2: place so fancy. I also just loved everyone who worked there,
Speaker 2: and so we Yeah, they just started digging in and
Speaker 2: it was the first time I'd ever had that kind
Speaker 2: of like manpower behind me. And Jonathan Vine has been
Speaker 2: my booking agent. I just love him. I adore him.
Speaker 1: Okay, but who is your manager today?
Speaker 2: My manager today is Kevin Morris, Corncapshaw and Perry Greenfield.
Speaker 1: And how did that end up happening?
Speaker 2: So had I had been with my management for more
Speaker 2: than a decade and I just really felt that I
Speaker 2: needed people here in Nashville. You know that, you know,
Speaker 2: might seem crazy after a decade, but it was like
Speaker 2: I everyone that I had was out in La or
Speaker 2: New York, and I had when I met everyone there,
Speaker 2: it was like I was still a kid and I
Speaker 2: was working with this woman for a very long time.
Speaker 2: She was like my day to day I grew up
Speaker 2: with I grew up with her, and I wanted to
Speaker 2: come into this season of hard headed woman. I had
Speaker 2: a lot of things that, like I said, I had
Speaker 2: just grown personally and I wanted to be able to
Speaker 2: come in with this like fresh energy. And it's very
Speaker 2: hard to do that when you've established a working relationship
Speaker 2: for ten years and then you know, say I want
Speaker 2: to change and do things a different way. Well, I've
Speaker 2: been you know, operating completely different. So I just started
Speaker 2: fresh and it's been great. I have a new band
Speaker 2: as well, and it's been so much change for me.
Speaker 2: I've been working with all the same people.
Speaker 1: Okay, so what is different with the new managers?
Speaker 2: Just you know, the excitement of this record and the
Speaker 2: excitement of all the things I have yet to do.
Speaker 2: They share in that excitement, and like I said, having
Speaker 2: people on ground and like on foot here in Nashville
Speaker 2: like today to get ready for this podcast, I had
Speaker 2: someone here come help me set up all the stuff
Speaker 2: that I needed. And before I was like paying a
Speaker 2: tour manager to come do that, and you know, it
Speaker 2: just it didn't It just didn't make sense logistically anymore.
Speaker 1: Okay, what are all these things you want to do?
Speaker 2: All the things I want to do. I want to
Speaker 2: continue to write more books. I want to I would
Speaker 2: like to act. I would like to break into film.
Speaker 2: I would like to write scores for movies and soundtracks
Speaker 2: and even write more for other people. You know, I've
Speaker 2: got a lot of songs that I don't cut. I've
Speaker 2: got a lot of songs that I've written that could
Speaker 2: be great for other people. So there's just I've done
Speaker 2: so much in my career that I'm so proud of.
Speaker 2: But there's still is There's still a lot left.
Speaker 1: Okay, the game is changed. It was an article the
Speaker 1: Any Times just yesterday. Is there a movie business when
Speaker 1: everybody's got a movie studio in their pocket? So that
Speaker 1: leads to the question, to what degree are you on
Speaker 1: social media? To what degree are you creating yourself because
Speaker 1: you have the tools.
Speaker 2: Historically I have done most of my social media myself
Speaker 2: because I'm a control freak and I don't want anything
Speaker 2: to read as ungenuine or you know, I just I
Speaker 2: like things. I'm very particular. But I've relented in the
Speaker 2: past few months to other people helping me and doing it.
Speaker 2: And I need that bandwidth because I want to spend
Speaker 2: my time writing songs. I want to spend my time,
Speaker 2: you know, working on on my next book. I don't
Speaker 2: want to sit and have to do all the editing
Speaker 2: and think about, Okay, this needs to go up this
Speaker 2: day because you know, tickets are on sale this day,
Speaker 2: and it just it's It's been really helpful to have
Speaker 2: a whole team of people working behind me, and I
Speaker 2: think I've always been a great leader. Delegating is what
Speaker 2: I do best. But I can't do everything myself, and
Speaker 2: for a long time I really was okay.
Speaker 1: In your book, you talk about being on Saturday Night
Speaker 1: Live and being depressed. It also social media blowback. Talk
Speaker 1: about that and what's ensued thereafter.
Speaker 2: Well, absolutely, I think social media is something that people
Speaker 2: really have to protect their mental health when you're using it,
Speaker 2: especially young women. And I had a really hard time
Speaker 2: reading all of the negative comments, especially when so much
Speaker 2: of it was not about the music, so much of
Speaker 2: it was based on my life looks, and you know,
Speaker 2: I'm not a model. I'm a musician I am. I
Speaker 2: am here to tell stories and sing about my feelings
Speaker 2: and about the world. And that's what really frustrated me
Speaker 2: so much about it. I've struggled with my self image,
Speaker 2: I've struggled with my weight, body positivity, my looks. I recently,
Speaker 2: just about a year ago, ended up having rhinoplasty, which
Speaker 2: for years I just said I would not do because
Speaker 2: again I didn't want anyone to say I was fake
Speaker 2: or not genuine or you know, but I was having
Speaker 2: I was struggling with a deviated septum with some breathing issues.
Speaker 2: Every time I would fly, I would get really bad
Speaker 2: pain in my ears, and so I went to this
Speaker 2: ear nose and throat specialist and the surgery was accommodation
Speaker 2: of cause medic and like you know, physical and it's
Speaker 2: really it's improved my self confidence. But I wanted to
Speaker 2: be completely transparent about it because I think that it's
Speaker 2: just impossible for little girls today or just any any
Speaker 2: human growing up and feeling like we have to fit
Speaker 2: into this mold. And it's like people just need to
Speaker 2: know that a lot of what they're looking at is
Speaker 2: not real. People have help, they have makeup artists, they
Speaker 2: have hairstylists, they have surgeries, they do all these things,
Speaker 2: and then they're not transparent about it. And I just
Speaker 2: feel like I wanted to be completely transparent about it.
Speaker 2: I didn't want to I didn't want to just brush
Speaker 2: it under the rug and not talk about it because
Speaker 2: it's been something that has impacted me my whole life,
Speaker 2: and I feel like it's impacted my career, like, oh
Speaker 2: maybe if I would have, you know, looked a certain
Speaker 2: way at a certain time, then I would have got farther.
Speaker 2: And you know, that's unfortunately just the kind of world
Speaker 2: that we live in, and it is a very like
Speaker 2: people are just so vapid and worried about looks. And
Speaker 2: it's really unfortunate, but that's what we focus on many
Speaker 2: times instead of the art.
Speaker 1: Many people who have one plastic surgery then go on
Speaker 1: to have other surgeries. Is are there other things you
Speaker 1: want to fix or you think you're one and done.
Speaker 2: Well. I think you can definitely get down a rabbit
Speaker 2: hole of trying to fix everything. And I definitely struggle with,
Speaker 2: you know, perfectionism, but I hope that I don't get
Speaker 2: carried away with that because I mean, I'm a human.
Speaker 2: I'm going to age's you know. I think women right
Speaker 2: now are really faced with some difficult decisions because it's
Speaker 2: like you age naturally. People are going to crucify you
Speaker 2: for that. You decide to get help and you know,
Speaker 2: keep propping things up, You're going to get judged for that.
Speaker 2: And so I don't know. Right now, I feel very content.
Speaker 2: I don't feel the need to do anything else, But
Speaker 2: I don't know. I guess we'll just see. We'll just
Speaker 2: see where my later years take me. I love like
Speaker 2: looking at people like Joni Mitchell and Patti Smith. I
Speaker 2: often turn to like Patti Smith when I'm feeling really
Speaker 2: weak and getting lost and you know, the the Nashville
Speaker 2: way of just like all the fake eyelashes and the
Speaker 2: hair teased up to high heavens, and it's like no,
Speaker 2: you can also you can also choose to to just
Speaker 2: completely go a different way and just be radically aged.
Speaker 1: Okay, going back to the social media blowback, I mean,
Speaker 1: before social media, you had artists say I don't read
Speaker 1: my reviews. Then there are other people who say I
Speaker 1: eat them. But you know, you're really not as good
Speaker 1: as the good ones, not as bad as the bad ones.
Speaker 1: How do you approach this? And how do you as
Speaker 1: a woman? Never mind, you don't have to be a
Speaker 1: woman if you have a public stance at all, I
Speaker 1: can tell you myself, people are attacking your looks. How
Speaker 1: do you deal with it?
Speaker 2: It's true, it's very unfortunate that we can all sit
Speaker 2: behind our little screens and say things we would never
Speaker 2: say to someone's face. I do read reviews, and I
Speaker 2: do think that there is a place in this world
Speaker 2: for criticism of art, and I do it myself all
Speaker 2: the time. I'm very judgy, Like when I don't like something,
Speaker 2: I know that I don't like it, whether it's a
Speaker 2: painting or whether it's a song or an album, and
Speaker 2: I don't get too upset when I get a negative review.
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, okay, maybe Like and something gets a
Speaker 2: strong reaction from somebody, like I can't I chalk that
Speaker 2: up as good. It's like, all right, they didn't dig it,
Speaker 2: but that's okay. They don't have to. The other thing, though,
Speaker 2: is just with social media in general, and just putting
Speaker 2: up anything and then reading the comments that can be
Speaker 2: underneath it. That can be very scary. And I don't
Speaker 2: always get in there, and I don't always read every
Speaker 2: single comment because I'll remember the bad one and I
Speaker 2: won't remember the twenty good ones that people left. But
Speaker 2: I just, yeah, I just let it roll off my back.
Speaker 2: I think I've gotten really thick skin since the Saturday
Speaker 2: Night Live thing. I've gotten a lot tougher. If somebody
Speaker 2: makes fun of my looks, it's like, okay, well, if
Speaker 2: that's all you can think of, you don't have very
Speaker 2: much creativity, and your put downs is like much more
Speaker 2: insulting to put down, Like I don't know, like John Rich,
Speaker 2: you know, I can't stand that guy. I'm like, we'll
Speaker 2: just say, like his his hair plugs or his like
Speaker 2: fake dyed hair, then actually saying like, no, your music sucks.
Speaker 2: That's that's what really hurts me. If somebody wants to
Speaker 2: hurt me, they can say my say my art's not good,
Speaker 2: or say my poetry is bad. But I'm not gonna
Speaker 2: be hurt if someone says like, oh, she has no
Speaker 2: ass or you know, whatever comment they're gonna spew it
Speaker 2: me okay.
Speaker 1: John Rich is a very Republican facing guy, very out
Speaker 1: Nashville is a blue city in a red state. Where
Speaker 1: are you and what do you feel about the everyday
Speaker 1: politics of Tennessee and the nation.
Speaker 2: I think it's heartbreaking to see how divided everybody is,
Speaker 2: and I think we have At the same time, I
Speaker 2: think I'm proud to stand up for things that are
Speaker 2: wrong or injust because we've got to use our voice
Speaker 2: while we still have it. I mean, we really I
Speaker 2: do feel that there is a threat to democracy and
Speaker 2: seeing what's happened to like Stephen Colbert, it's really disheartening.
Speaker 2: It's unprecedented times we're living in and I know, without
Speaker 2: a shadow of a doubt that my career could be
Speaker 2: further whatever that means. If I would have probably kept
Speaker 2: a lot of my opinions to myself and maybe not
Speaker 2: shared so many things that are more like role or
Speaker 2: more like socialist ideals. But yeah, like I said, I
Speaker 2: think we need that because we've got women's rights are
Speaker 2: just disappearing right before us Tennessee lawmakers. I don't trust them.
Speaker 2: They don't have our best interests in mind. They are
Speaker 2: their pockets are being filled by the NRA. So of
Speaker 2: course when there's a shooting right where my children, right
Speaker 2: near where my children go to school, I'm going to
Speaker 2: show up and I'm going to protest because we need
Speaker 2: more gun laws. You know, I just couldn't sleep at
Speaker 2: night if I didn't use my platform in a way
Speaker 2: that I think is meaningful. And I mean my songs too.
Speaker 2: I hope that they reflect love and positivity and just
Speaker 2: make people think and open their minds, because we're really
Speaker 2: getting to a dangerous place in our country where no
Speaker 2: one can sit down and have a conversation. So it's like,
Speaker 2: I'm not angry at anybody who's on the right. Honestly,
Speaker 2: I think that I've gotten rid of a lot of
Speaker 2: my anger and how frustrated I used to be. I'm
Speaker 2: more interested in talking with people and wanting to see
Speaker 2: how they came to those conclusions, so maybe we can
Speaker 2: move beyond that, get somewhere else.
Speaker 1: Did you grow up in a liberal family? Were they conservative?
Speaker 1: And you've made these leash you're own.
Speaker 2: I grew up in a completely divided household, half liberal,
Speaker 2: half conservative, and yeah, and one side of my family
Speaker 2: was more red and one side of my family it
Speaker 2: was more so.
Speaker 1: What was Thanksgiving?
Speaker 2: Like? It was interesting? It was and it's and it
Speaker 2: still is and you know, but it's like I'm seeing
Speaker 2: a Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks, like they're coming together.
Speaker 2: So like maybe if they can come together, maybe Republicans
Speaker 2: and Democrats are all gonna come to Maybe there's hope
Speaker 2: for us still if they're burying the hatchet. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I think I I have no regrets for anything I've
Speaker 2: I've said or done. I just hope that, yeah, that
Speaker 2: America can can move ahead. It feels it feels like
Speaker 2: we're at some kind of like breaking point and it's
Speaker 2: it's hard time to even put out music because God,
Speaker 2: the world's fallen apart.
Speaker 1: Okay, you talk about books. You had a book come
Speaker 1: out in twenty twenty two. I've been quoting a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff from it. Maybe we'll make it. How did
Speaker 1: that come to be?
Speaker 2: I am an avid reader. It's been a huge part
Speaker 2: of my songwriting, and I've I've always loved reading like memoirs,
Speaker 2: and anytime I get into an artist, I go see
Speaker 2: if you know, either they've written something or somebody's written
Speaker 2: something about them. And really I kind of began writing
Speaker 2: the book when I found myself pregnant in twenty eighteen,
Speaker 2: and it's like my career had just taken off. I'd
Speaker 2: just gotten nominated for you know, Best New Artists at
Speaker 2: the Grammys, and then hear I'm like, oh, I'm pregnant.
Speaker 2: It really couldn't be worse timing, but it was. Writing
Speaker 2: that book was just something to keep myself busy, and
Speaker 2: also just a way to remember where I came from,
Speaker 2: to remember all those little nuanced things about those early years.
Speaker 2: And you know, it was definitely inspired by reading just
Speaker 2: Kids like one too many times and thinking like, Okay,
Speaker 2: that's the kind of book I want to write. I
Speaker 2: want to write about that ten years that we were struggling.
Speaker 2: And even now I've started writing down the next ten
Speaker 2: years because it's just so easy to forget things if
Speaker 2: you don't write it down.
Speaker 1: What came first, the book or the book deal?
Speaker 2: The book? Yeah, I was writing the book every single day.
Speaker 2: I would go sit down, write this book. And then
Speaker 2: I got on Twitter and I wrote, I'm writing a book.
Speaker 2: And my friend Jessica Hopper, she worked at University of
Speaker 2: Texas Press or she knew somebody who worked there, and
Speaker 2: they said, hey, can we read the manuscript? And I
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, sure, so they read it. They immediately
Speaker 2: gave me a book deal, and I've loved getting the
Speaker 2: book out there. I should have, in hindsight, I should
Speaker 2: have sent the manuscript around to a few different people
Speaker 2: and got some other options. But they're a you know,
Speaker 2: they're a nonprofit. They're an indie book dealer. And we
Speaker 2: were so close to making it on the New York
Speaker 2: Times bestseller list that first week. I don't know what.
Speaker 2: I don't know how he didn't. That's a very mysterious
Speaker 2: list to get on. But very happy with just getting
Speaker 2: that book out. It felt freeing for me in a
Speaker 2: lot of ways.
Speaker 1: Okay, book business, I'll just put it this way, is
Speaker 1: the amateur hour compared to the music business in terms
Speaker 1: of publicity all kinds of things. So what was your
Speaker 1: experience of putting out a book.
Speaker 2: It was great. We did a tour. We went around
Speaker 2: to small bookstores all across the country. I like I said,
Speaker 2: I had really high hopes of being on that New
Speaker 2: York Times bestseller list. That was like one of my
Speaker 2: bucket list things I wanted. It was. I got a
Speaker 2: little depressed posts not making the New York Times bestseller list,
Speaker 2: but look, that still gives me something to strive for.
Speaker 2: At the time, everybody said, like, why are you writing
Speaker 2: a book? You're way too young, Like I don't understand
Speaker 2: why you're writing a book in your forties, But I
Speaker 2: don't know. It was just it encapsulates that time period,
Speaker 2: and I processed so much, Like at the beginning of
Speaker 2: starting writing the book, I was still drinking and it
Speaker 2: was COVID, and then I went through COVID and I
Speaker 2: was like trying to finish this book while having a
Speaker 2: young child at home and drinking too much. And like,
Speaker 2: through the writing of the book, I kind of realized, like,
Speaker 2: damn this, my drinking is a problem, and it's insane
Speaker 2: that I would have to read it back to myself
Speaker 2: to know that, because shit, I mean I hit my
Speaker 2: car into a telephone pole tried to outrun two cops.
Speaker 2: I like I said, my husband and I were having
Speaker 2: all sorts of troubles. There was nothing good that drinking
Speaker 2: was bringing into my life. But until I kind of
Speaker 2: read it back and I had a published I had
Speaker 2: an editor, and I remember she read it and she said, Wow,
Speaker 2: it's like whiskey is like a character in your book.
Speaker 2: And there was just really no ending to it either.
Speaker 2: And so once I kind of decided that I was
Speaker 2: going to quit drinking, then it was like, okay, well
Speaker 2: there's the ending of the book. It's like, I'm not
Speaker 2: going to live like this anymore.
Speaker 1: Okay, a couple of things. What did you leave out
Speaker 1: of the book?
Speaker 2: Oh? Well, I can't tell you. Dolly says, you always
Speaker 2: got to save something for yourself.
Speaker 1: Well, let me put the question a different way. Did
Speaker 1: you leave things out of the book either because they
Speaker 1: were too raw and you didn't want to reveal them,
Speaker 1: or you didn't potentially want to hurt third parties.
Speaker 2: It was a combination of both. I have people in
Speaker 2: my life that are still alive and that mean very
Speaker 2: much to me, but I couldn't go into a lot
Speaker 2: of my family dynamics. There was a lot there that
Speaker 2: just needed to stay protected, to protect my family, not
Speaker 2: my children, but my you know, my extended family. And
Speaker 2: and then yeah, there was other things that I've kind
Speaker 2: of found out about myself, about my personality with things
Speaker 2: that I've that I've struggled with over the years, and
Speaker 2: and you know, things with with the drinking, with the
Speaker 2: eating disorder, with just so many different things that all
Speaker 2: kind of came to light through my therapy. But a
Speaker 2: lot of it I haven't really went into because I'm
Speaker 2: still like processing it personally myself.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're sober now.
Speaker 2: So alcohol free. I still partake in psychedelics and cannabis.
Speaker 1: Okay, how did you stop drinking?
Speaker 2: I have to credit literature and psilocybin, and really I
Speaker 2: started reading about how Bill Wilson, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, began.
Speaker 2: He actually had a psychedelic experience from the plant belladonna.
Speaker 2: That's how he gave up his drinking. It wasn't religion.
Speaker 2: Some people came in later that that became part of
Speaker 2: it was the religion. But he was in those early
Speaker 2: days of AA when he was curing people. He was
Speaker 2: giving everybody acid and I thought, well, that's interesting. I've
Speaker 2: had some really transformative, you know, mushroom trips prior. So
Speaker 2: I took a mushroom journey on my own and I
Speaker 2: really thought about my drinking, and I thought about all
Speaker 2: of the things that have been holding me back with it.
Speaker 2: There's been so many years I wanted to quit, and
Speaker 2: that mushroom experience, coupled with about three or four different books,
Speaker 2: removed my want. It was I'm not using any willpower,
Speaker 2: I just simply don't want to do it anymore. And
Speaker 2: it was this book by Holly Whittaker that was called
Speaker 2: Quit Like a Woman, the rebellious decision to give up
Speaker 2: alcohol and a culture obsessed with drinking. The other one
Speaker 2: was Alan Carr The Easy Way, and then Anni Grace
Speaker 2: This Naked Mind. And I read those books and I
Speaker 2: have I just lost my desire to drink.
Speaker 1: It's okay, but in addition to the drinking, drinking is
Speaker 1: a lifestyle, going to the bar, hanging out, backstage, a
Speaker 1: million places where people are drinking. So how do you
Speaker 1: cope with that? Or you know you're over the hump
Speaker 1: maybe now if you ever get over the hump, But
Speaker 1: how do you deal with that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it is, it's so wrapped up, especially
Speaker 2: when you're a musician. It's just it's there all the time.
Speaker 2: People think that you run off it, like it's our
Speaker 2: gasoline or something. And I still go out to bars.
Speaker 2: I still I love to go out and socialize. I
Speaker 2: love to get behind the bar and bartend. Still, I,
Speaker 2: like I said, it's just this weird. It's almost like
Speaker 2: you know, Steve Jobs like whatever, like wearing the same
Speaker 2: thing every day, where it's like I just get up
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I'm not I don't have to moderate
Speaker 2: because I never moderated good. It would always be like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm just going to have two, and then two would
Speaker 2: be two thousand and I once I just decided, oh
Speaker 2: I'm not going to have it. It's of course, it
Speaker 2: was like awkward for a while, and I didn't tell anyone.
Speaker 2: I always had an Na beer or like a Rocks
Speaker 2: glass that looked like a tequila drink. But yeah, once
Speaker 2: I once I just decided like, oh, I'm not going
Speaker 2: to drink like just I don't even think about it.
Speaker 2: And my husband still drinks, and people on tours still drink,
Speaker 2: and my fam my family members all still drink. I mean,
Speaker 2: my best friend is like a wine connoisseur, and like
Speaker 2: I just have something different in my cup. But I'm
Speaker 2: still there, like having the conversation. And I think in
Speaker 2: the past it would be like I would hide myself
Speaker 2: away and I would not go out, but now it's
Speaker 2: like the opposite. I'm like, okay, I still need to socialize,
Speaker 2: like that's very important for me.
Speaker 1: What about cigarettes, which are another feature of the book.
Speaker 2: I've given up the SIGs too, and I didn't think
Speaker 2: I was going to be able to do that, but
Speaker 2: I held on to him for a while because it
Speaker 2: felt good to just smoke while everybody else was getting drunk.
Speaker 2: But yeah, now it's like they ah, they just they
Speaker 2: make me sick when I smell them. And and again,
Speaker 2: my husband still smoke cigarettes, and I'm like trying to
Speaker 2: get him on the same train as me, but we're
Speaker 2: on our different paths. He's doing his thing, I'm doing mine.
Speaker 2: And the smoking and the drinking, it was like it
Speaker 2: was just hell on my voice, you know. And even
Speaker 2: this the weeds smoking, like I have to be careful.
Speaker 2: I like use a vaporizer or every now and then
Speaker 2: I'll do a joint with a group of people. But
Speaker 2: like if I'm on tour, like I am never getting
Speaker 2: high before I sing, I never get stone and get
Speaker 2: on stage ever ever, ever, I just and I used
Speaker 2: to do like you do a show a tequila to
Speaker 2: get up, you know, get on stage. And now it's
Speaker 2: like we get together and we we pray together in
Speaker 2: a circle. It's insane.
Speaker 1: Wait wait wait wait wait wait you pray together? Are
Speaker 1: you a believer?
Speaker 2: I am not religious, like you know, I don't. I
Speaker 2: don't follow the Bible. I don't follow that kind of strict,
Speaker 2: rigid thing. But I definitely believe in in uh in afterlife.
Speaker 2: I think, I think, I definitely believe in reincarnation. I
Speaker 2: don't know if I'm more of a Buddhist than a Christian,
Speaker 2: but I yeah, I believe. I believe in something for sure.
Speaker 2: I've had too many like close encounters with ghosts and
Speaker 2: weird spooky things in my life to not I have
Speaker 2: a lot of a sleep paralysis and sleep apnea and
Speaker 2: stuff too, and weird. I've been visited by weird things
Speaker 2: in my dream. I definitely believe in in ghosts and spirits,
Speaker 2: and but I think it's you know, you get on
Speaker 2: stage and it's good to just take a moment, get everybody,
Speaker 2: get all close and be together and calm your nerves.
Speaker 2: And you never know when it's going to be the
Speaker 2: last time you step on stage together. And I think,
Speaker 2: you know, with my with my last band, like I
Speaker 2: didn't know that was going to be the last time
Speaker 2: that we were all playing together. Either. We had a
Speaker 2: really long break after that and then everything deteriorated and
Speaker 2: and so yeah, I think it's good to put your
Speaker 2: heads together. You never know what can happen while you're
Speaker 2: up there.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned sleep app need to use the seatpat machine.
Speaker 2: No, I don't, but I My breathing's gotten a lot
Speaker 2: better post seeing doctor Nasiri, who is this vocal specialist.
Speaker 2: But yeah, the sleep paralysis has been something that I've
Speaker 2: been that's happened my whole life, where I will be
Speaker 2: sleeping and get completely frozen. And I've read a lot
Speaker 2: about Also, I have this rare blood type it's called
Speaker 2: a RH negative and most of it like originates from
Speaker 2: the Basque country, and there's people that have the blood
Speaker 2: all have these similarities. And actually the red Lynn had
Speaker 2: this same blood type as well. But there's like a
Speaker 2: through line and you can look up conspiracy theories on
Speaker 2: the internet about alien abductions and this blood type and
Speaker 2: sleep apnea. It's all tied in there, which is very strange.
Speaker 2: But I'm trying to write about it in a book
Speaker 2: that is my second book I've been working on. It's
Speaker 2: called Close Encounters in Country Music and Beyond, and it's
Speaker 2: about just people that I've been lucky enough to meet
Speaker 2: and hang with, Joan Bias, you know, Willie Nelson, Red Olinn,
Speaker 2: but also ties in other worldly experiences.
Speaker 1: Okay, you talk a lot about mush rooms. Have you
Speaker 1: done ayahuasca?
Speaker 2: I have not. I have not. I have done pretty
Speaker 2: much every other psychedel I've done DMT, I've done acids,
Speaker 2: I've done, of course, like I said, mushrooms, but I
Speaker 2: have never done ayahuasca. Now I don't know if I
Speaker 2: want to throw up like that.
Speaker 1: Okay, you have a big decision to make. Will you
Speaker 1: do mushrooms? Try to come to an idea of what
Speaker 1: you should do.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. I hadn't taken a big dose in a
Speaker 2: very long time, and just a few weeks ago I
Speaker 2: was feeling really stuck with a lot of things personally professionally,
Speaker 2: and my kids went to the grandparents for the evening,
Speaker 2: and my husband went out to the bar and I
Speaker 2: sat outside and I ate a whole bunch of mushrooms
Speaker 2: and just put on some records. And I like to
Speaker 2: listen to the Timothy Leary Guided Trip on YouTube as well.
Speaker 2: And I always feel like I come out of it
Speaker 2: with yeah, just with insight. And I think it's so
Speaker 2: easy for our brains just to get stuck in the
Speaker 2: same way of thinking. And it's so interesting to me
Speaker 2: that mushrooms create new neural pathways. You know, alcohol shuts
Speaker 2: it all off, It just blunts it. But I'm trying
Speaker 2: to open things up here after years of trying to
Speaker 2: shut it all off.
Speaker 1: Okay. Also, in your book, how about you encounter your husband?
Speaker 1: You just see him and you go, he's the one.
Speaker 1: What was it about him? It's not like you were
Speaker 1: in experienced you you know, it's not like you were
Speaker 1: wet behind the years you've been around, and you just
Speaker 1: see him in a party, go he's the one.
Speaker 2: I have no idea what drew me to him, but
Speaker 2: I think it was he was playing bass, and I
Speaker 2: feel like bass players have always been the most statable.
Speaker 2: He was he looked like the saddest guy at the
Speaker 2: party that was there, and I don't know, I just
Speaker 2: immediately felt drawn to him. I I don't know what
Speaker 2: it is. And later he started playing me some songs
Speaker 2: and I loved the songs that he had written. But
Speaker 2: it's just it was the strangest thing. I never said
Speaker 2: stuff like that. I never I never dreamed that I
Speaker 2: would meet the person I was going to stay with
Speaker 2: at twenty and here and here I am forty two.
Speaker 2: We've been together for that long. But it was just
Speaker 2: something just drew me towards him.
Speaker 1: And why are bass players the most datable?
Speaker 2: You know, Guitar players are so full of themselves, singers
Speaker 2: lead singers, like, we're not datable, Definitely not drummers. I
Speaker 2: don't know. Bass players, they're just like they're they're so
Speaker 2: quietly important. And that's like, it's kind of the role
Speaker 2: that Jeremy has like played in my career. He even
Speaker 2: still he's one of the most prolific writers. He's had
Speaker 2: a career in his own right too. He put out
Speaker 2: three albums on Anti Records and went and opened a
Speaker 2: bunch of shows for Mike Campbell kind of before the pandemic.
Speaker 2: But he's been there to put the work into my
Speaker 2: thing and to support me. I mean, I think so
Speaker 2: many times people say, like behind every good man is
Speaker 2: an even better woman, but in this case, like it's
Speaker 2: kind of the opposite, because he's he's just if I
Speaker 2: was a garden like, I wouldn't be growing if it
Speaker 2: wasn't for him.
Speaker 1: Also a really left field thing which you reference, but
Speaker 1: it's also in the book What's up with playing drums?
Speaker 2: I'm a drummer. I'm a drummer. I have never really
Speaker 2: had any professional drum lessons. I just I got this
Speaker 2: drum kit. I actually bought it for Jeremy. I had
Speaker 2: been in a car accident and I got a settlement,
Speaker 2: and instead of taking the money to do therapy, I
Speaker 2: went and bought a Tama drum kit that was like
Speaker 2: the Dave Girl like drum kit with the huge bass drum.
Speaker 2: And I got at home and Jeremy really couldn't play
Speaker 2: the drums very well, but I sat behind it. He
Speaker 2: had some of his dude friends over for a band
Speaker 2: practice and I started. I ended up being their drummer
Speaker 2: for a while. I don't know if it's just my experience.
Speaker 2: Like tap dancing, I was a tap dancer for a
Speaker 2: long time and you have to move your feet in
Speaker 2: your arms at different times. And I love playing drums.
Speaker 2: I just sat in a keep on Rocking in the
Speaker 2: Free World with Lucas Neilson and Steve Steven Wilson Junior
Speaker 2: at Newport and it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: Okay, you mentioned dudes, and you also mentioned in the
Speaker 1: books Good to Have a Girlfriend. Are you more of
Speaker 1: a girly girl? Are you more like a guy girl?
Speaker 2: I hate to admit it, but yeah, I feel like
Speaker 2: I am usually one of the guys. I I definitely
Speaker 2: have a close group of girlfriends that I love to
Speaker 2: get together with and you know, take girls trips. But
Speaker 2: the majority of my life is spent hanging out with
Speaker 2: more more dudes, and I love to hike and fish
Speaker 2: and do outdoorsy type things. I'm probably more of a
Speaker 2: tomboy than like my husband is. Like I like to camp,
Speaker 2: I like to mow the lawn, and like I take
Speaker 2: out the garbage and he goes to the grocery store
Speaker 2: and cooks the meals. Like our house is very reverse roles.
Speaker 1: Okay, your husband thinks he can't have children, you get pregnant,
Speaker 1: You're not even on the way up, you're kind of nowhere.
Speaker 1: What goes through your head?
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean it was the worst timing. It was.
Speaker 2: I had just kind of thought like, Okay, maybe we
Speaker 2: should just have dogs and travel Europe and not have
Speaker 2: any children because we were so financially unstable. I mean,
Speaker 2: we were just barely eking by. Like I said, the
Speaker 2: water was always being shut off, the electricity. We just
Speaker 2: we were completely irresponsible. But we somehow have raised two
Speaker 2: incredible kids. And they came along right at a time.
Speaker 2: I really think that we needed them because as hard
Speaker 2: as we've partied, Like my son Judah, he's fifteen now,
Speaker 2: he really he kept us in line. Even when we
Speaker 2: weren't in line. It would be like one of us
Speaker 2: would always make sure that we were going to be
Speaker 2: clear headed and be attentive for him, because it's I mean,
Speaker 2: having kids, it just changes everything. It's wild. So probably
Speaker 2: it saved us in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: Okay, whats your parenting style?
Speaker 2: Parenting style, Well, we don't like screens in our house.
Speaker 2: We're very strict on the screens. We are, but we're like,
Speaker 2: do what you want. Other than that, like I love
Speaker 2: to let my kids climb trees and be outside and
Speaker 2: get messy, and I think sometimes I struggle with the
Speaker 2: being like instead of being like the mom. Sometimes I
Speaker 2: come back from tour and I'm like the cool aunt
Speaker 2: to my own children, which is really tough. You know.
Speaker 2: I like bring them a toy and I spoil them
Speaker 2: for a few days, and then I have to go
Speaker 2: back out again. And so I think my husband has
Speaker 2: to be the bad cop more. And my mother, she's
Speaker 2: helping us raise these kids, and I really couldn't do
Speaker 2: it without her. She's you know, Grandma's here all the time.
Speaker 1: Okay, your kid wants to drop out of college to
Speaker 1: do god knows what, drinking and drugging. You say, man,
Speaker 1: that's what I did. Go for it. Well, you say, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: that's not the way to do it.
Speaker 2: No. I have been very transparent about substances with my
Speaker 2: kid and even with following a career in music, because
Speaker 2: it is such a tough way of life, and I
Speaker 2: don't know that I would wish this upon anybody unless
Speaker 2: they just were so sick in the head to do it.
Speaker 2: And my son, actually, he came home first day at
Speaker 2: high school the other day, and he's been very into
Speaker 2: soccer lately. That's been kind of his passion. But he
Speaker 2: he's played drums, he's played piano, he's played guitar and
Speaker 2: had lessons in the past. But he came home first
Speaker 2: day at high school. He joined a band. He joined
Speaker 2: a rock band. He's playing keys and he sits down.
Speaker 2: He starts playing knocking on Heaven's Door, and I'm like, man, Okay,
Speaker 2: maybe we should have put you in public school a
Speaker 2: long time ago. He's been at these private schools and
Speaker 2: it's crazy, and you know, me and my husband are like, wow,
Speaker 2: like maybe there's hope for him yet. But I also
Speaker 2: am like part of me just wants them to be
Speaker 2: like an you know, have just like a straight normal job,
Speaker 2: because it is. It's just such a hard way of life.
Speaker 2: It really it is.
Speaker 1: So you're saying, it's like family ties. You're the hippie
Speaker 1: and your kid is the nerd.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I think you know he's he's got these
Speaker 2: weird hippie parents. He's always like, what's up with the
Speaker 2: furniture in this house? Everything's old, and you know he's
Speaker 2: he definitely it's like he doesn't think we're not cool,
Speaker 2: but you've got to try to rebel against your parents.
Speaker 2: Who are like the most rebellious. He's it's your only
Speaker 2: option is to be like straight laced.
Speaker 1: And how did you decide to put him in public school?
Speaker 2: He made that decision. He just visited the school he
Speaker 2: wanted to go, and, like I said, one of the extracurriculars,
Speaker 2: you can join a rock band. And so it's it's
Speaker 2: been kind of crazy. We've all been sitting around jamming
Speaker 2: on knocking on Heaven's door all week.
Speaker 1: Okay, how did you and your family cope during COVID
Speaker 1: in lockdown?
Speaker 2: We could have coped better. We Yeah, we were very
Speaker 2: isolated at the beginning of it. My husband actually had COVID.
Speaker 2: He got it in York and he was just in
Speaker 2: such a bad place. He it took a month to
Speaker 2: feel better, and we had a new baby at home,
Speaker 2: and I got almost like over the top, kind of
Speaker 2: like germophobe, where it took me a really long time
Speaker 2: to go back out in public and want to eat
Speaker 2: at restaurants and want to see people. And it was
Speaker 2: funny because my husband was the one who got COVID
Speaker 2: and he was so sick with it, and I never
Speaker 2: felt sick anytime I tested positive for it. I was
Speaker 2: still super healthy, but I just it affected me, it
Speaker 2: affected the kids. We just we stayed shut in, we
Speaker 2: really did. But we listened to a lot of music
Speaker 2: and we bonded with each other and we had lots
Speaker 2: of hangs over at the house with lots of people
Speaker 2: just coming to see us and sit outside and swim
Speaker 2: in the pool. And yeah, it was it was a
Speaker 2: good time. I think I fell back in love with
Speaker 2: with listening to music during that time. I really I
Speaker 2: listened again.
Speaker 1: And how did you cope financially?
Speaker 2: I had a really great savings that that was there,
Speaker 2: and you know, there were little things that we did,
Speaker 2: like I did a podcast with sons, and you know,
Speaker 2: there were things that that came that I mean I have.
Speaker 2: I had a weed deal with Willie Nelson's weed company,
Speaker 2: and you know, I'm trying to diversify because we know
Speaker 2: that the money that there once was for people who
Speaker 2: wrote their own songs is just not what it used
Speaker 2: to be.
Speaker 1: Okay, trying to think of a way to ask this,
Speaker 1: I can get an honesty answer. You have the male musicians,
Speaker 1: they have a bunch of kids in their never home. Okay,
Speaker 1: many get divorced, re married, have more kids, whatever. That's
Speaker 1: not exactly what I'm asking, but I have to put
Speaker 1: that in the mix. I'm gonna ask you point Blake,
Speaker 1: you won't give me an honesty answer, and then I'll spay.
Speaker 1: Is music number one? Is it more important to do
Speaker 1: your music in your career than your relationship and then
Speaker 1: your kids. We're not taking the kids out of the picture,
Speaker 1: we're not taking the husband out of the picture. But
Speaker 1: if something happened where they say no, Margo, you know
Speaker 1: this is done because you have to be here for
Speaker 1: the kids in the and the husband. I can't think
Speaker 1: of a situation, but let's say there's no doubt you're
Speaker 1: gonna say what.
Speaker 2: I think. I would obviously pick my family and my
Speaker 2: children any day of the week, but I don't think
Speaker 2: that the mother that they would be left with would
Speaker 2: be much of a mother. I think music is what
Speaker 2: makes me tick. And during COVID, I was so depressed.
Speaker 2: Was I was purposeless, I was driftless. I was drinking
Speaker 2: so much because I had nothing to look forward to.
Speaker 2: I used to do the show and then get drunk,
Speaker 2: but there was no show, so it was like I
Speaker 2: might as well just be drunk all the time. So
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, the answer would be that I would
Speaker 2: be with my children. But I don't know what kind
Speaker 2: of human I would be at all. And I try
Speaker 2: to remind myself of that because sometimes I just get
Speaker 2: so overwhelmed and I feel like like I'm half assing
Speaker 2: my way through everything, you know, like, oh, there's not
Speaker 2: enough time for my marriage, there's not enough time for
Speaker 2: my kids, there's not enough time for my music. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I know that my kids wouldn't even want that for me.
Speaker 2: They know, they know that I'm most happy when I'm
Speaker 2: able to do what I love.
Speaker 1: Okay, you know you talk about the new management company
Speaker 1: with corn Capsule red Light, and you're saying, I want
Speaker 1: to do movies. I want to do music for movies.
Speaker 1: I want to write books. But in reality, first and foremost,
Speaker 1: you're a singer songwriter. Let's just use that appellation. Let's
Speaker 1: not get caught up in names. Okay. We established at
Speaker 1: the beginning that the landscape is changing. What do you want?
Speaker 1: What do you want to happen? You have any fear
Speaker 1: that it'll slip away?
Speaker 2: Just my career in general, Yeah, I think if you
Speaker 2: don't keep working hard at absolutely will And I did
Speaker 2: take off a lot of time this past year, I
Speaker 2: took off more time than I've taken off in a decade,
Speaker 2: and I needed it. I needed to rebuild my bands,
Speaker 2: to rebuild my business. But I think that I don't
Speaker 2: think I would ever let my career slip away because
Speaker 2: I just I'm too driven, I'm too hungry. I am.
Speaker 2: I know that I can continue to find inspiration and
Speaker 2: reinvent myself and get out there and play live shows.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've been so lucky to get to meet
Speaker 2: so many of my heroes and get to really like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, pick their brain for advice.
Speaker 2: And I know that everybody goes through these like dips
Speaker 2: in their career as well, you know, like if you
Speaker 2: have if you're a legacy artist and you have a
Speaker 2: career that spans like decades, and I think, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I'm just I'm really trying to remain true to my
Speaker 2: art and not get caught up like doing things that
Speaker 2: feel like, oh, you're doing this to like stay young
Speaker 2: or stay hip, whether it's the TikTok dances or like,
Speaker 2: you know, all the trends and things that people try.
Speaker 2: I just, yeah, it's just not me. But yeah, I
Speaker 2: don't know, I don't know if that answers a question
Speaker 2: you did.
Speaker 1: Okay. Back in the eighties and the heyday of MTV,
Speaker 1: the rock bands would talk about world domination and literally
Speaker 1: the police started that their father was in the CIA.
Speaker 1: They toured all these crazy places where no one had
Speaker 1: ever toured before. Conversely, no one gets more pressed than
Speaker 1: Taylor's Swift. And I would say, other than her fans,
Speaker 1: the average person can't even sing two songs of hers
Speaker 1: name them. I only use her. She wrote a song
Speaker 1: about me. I don't want to get into Taylor Swift.
Speaker 1: I only use her because you like at the top
Speaker 1: of the pyramid, right. I'm going to tell one other
Speaker 1: story that is kind of the same thing. This is
Speaker 1: twenty years ago. Brian Adams was on tour with def
Speaker 1: Leppard in baseball stadiums, minor league ballparks, and they would
Speaker 1: flip headliners and as you know, an experienced rude person,
Speaker 1: you'd rather go on when it's dark. And on this
Speaker 1: particular day, Brian Adams was playing and it was still
Speaker 1: light out. I'm standing on the side of the stage.
Speaker 1: He literally takes up the set list and looks at
Speaker 1: the rest of the band, rips it in half and
Speaker 1: you literally see him work hard to win over the audience,
Speaker 1: which he does. So those are it's a two part question,
Speaker 1: to what degree deep inside do you still want world domination?
Speaker 1: And do you believe if they put someone in front
Speaker 1: of you you can close them.
Speaker 2: I have definitely had to win over fans that I'm
Speaker 2: walking out there and I'm knowing they don't like me.
Speaker 2: Not only do they not know who I am, Oh,
Speaker 2: they do know me, and they probably don't like me.
Speaker 2: I I still I think I put on a better
Speaker 2: show when I feel like the audience is unaware of
Speaker 2: who I am or you know, I I will, I
Speaker 2: will work the stage and I will and I will
Speaker 2: win them over. I really will. I've I've opened a
Speaker 2: lot of shows. I have been the person playing when
Speaker 2: the sun's still up, and uh, yeah, that's just it's
Speaker 2: just in my it's just in my dna. I I
Speaker 2: feel like I don't really I don't really care if
Speaker 2: I get to the point of being like, oh, I'm
Speaker 2: selling stadiums or you know, that's that's like kind of
Speaker 2: never been my m O. And I think when you
Speaker 2: when you look at artists like even like Bob Dylan
Speaker 2: or something like look at the effect that he's had.
Speaker 2: Does it matter what size like rooms he's playing, No,
Speaker 2: he's He's a fucking legend and he he followed his
Speaker 2: muse to the very end. I think anything that is
Speaker 2: successful enough to be in a giant stadium is like,
Speaker 2: there's probably a reason because it's probably a little bit
Speaker 2: more generic and there's and there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2: There's a place for that. That's just not my place.
Speaker 2: My place is like, you know, I don't know, hopefully
Speaker 2: somebody somewhere more like in the the Joan Biez or
Speaker 2: like the Bonnie Right kind of you know. It's like,
Speaker 2: I'm dedicated to the craft, to the music. I never
Speaker 2: want anything to to sell out in a way. That's
Speaker 2: just I'm doing this because it will get me x
Speaker 2: amount of fans.
Speaker 1: Okay, talk about Sturgiel Simpson, you talk about Alabama shikestaying
Speaker 1: at your house, opening for Jason in Bell. You're a
Speaker 1: student of the game you talk about and a student
Speaker 1: of the music, Bob Dylan, etcetera. What do you think
Speaker 1: about today's music.
Speaker 2: I think there's there's some good stuff out there if
Speaker 2: you know where to look. But I also think there's
Speaker 2: a lot of shit. I think there's, like I said,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of things being a kind of hoisted
Speaker 2: up as being like real or or down to earth
Speaker 2: or like, oh, this is the authentic thing, and like
Speaker 2: I don't always see it. And I don't want to
Speaker 2: name names or pick any fights, but I just there's
Speaker 2: a lot of midship that is, you know, because it's popular,
Speaker 2: people think that it's the best thing ever. But popularity
Speaker 2: doesn't equal quality, And I think you can just go
Speaker 2: to like case in point, McDonald sells the most burgers,
Speaker 2: but it's not the best burger.
Speaker 1: Who is the best burger?
Speaker 2: Who is the best burger? Like today's Yeah, all right,
Speaker 2: eat man?
Speaker 1: I just well, do you maybe I don't need burgers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I eat impossible burgers. I eat meat still every
Speaker 2: now and then. I think Tyler Childers is uh phenomenal.
Speaker 2: I think he's an artist who is really reaching, stretching, growing,
Speaker 2: but remaining true to himself. I think, you know, as
Speaker 2: far as new stuff goes, there's there's a band called
Speaker 2: Rattlesnake Milk that I'm really stoked on. I'm really hyped on.
Speaker 2: They're going to open for me at my show at
Speaker 2: the Ryman they're phenomenal. There's definitely a lot of like
Speaker 2: incredible young virtuoso talents like I think Billy Strings, you
Speaker 2: know is and Molly Tuttle, They're they're phenomenal players. Sierra
Speaker 2: Ferrell is like a really wonderful singer. There's a lot
Speaker 2: of people out there that are that are making great records.
Speaker 2: And but like I said, there's also a lot of
Speaker 2: really midship that just gets Tod did as being as
Speaker 2: being more real than it is.
Speaker 1: Okay, Finally, in your book, you go on about you
Speaker 1: and your husband Jeremy getting into a kinksphase. What are
Speaker 1: your favorite Kink songs?
Speaker 2: M Strangers? That's one of my favorites This Time Tomorrow,
Speaker 2: I mean, of course, like Sunny Afternoon was one of
Speaker 2: the first songs that I learned how to play. I
Speaker 2: love I Need to write Ray and Dave Davies both
Speaker 2: like a letter and just thank them for the music.
Speaker 2: All of Muswell Hillbillies, Lola Versus power Man. Yeah, Strangers though,
Speaker 2: that's like the song Strangers in This Time Tomorrow. Those
Speaker 2: two songs like they just they got punched me in
Speaker 2: a really great way.
Speaker 1: My favorite do you know Preservation Act too?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Do you know, money talks, funny talks.
Speaker 2: I need to look that one.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, show me a man who can live without bread,
Speaker 1: and I'll show you a man who's a liar in debt.
Speaker 1: There's no man alive you can't live without who won't
Speaker 1: sell for a price. Money talks, and we're the living proof.
Speaker 2: Ooh, that's beautiful.
Speaker 1: I'll leave you with that. Margo, thanks so much for
Speaker 1: taking the time to talk with me and my audience.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, we've been reading your newsletter for a very long time.
Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to speak with you.
Speaker 1: Cool. Here I am till next time. This is Bob
Speaker 1: left Sis