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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftsteads Podcast. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is Margot Price, who has a new album,

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Speaker 1: Hard Hitted Woman. Margot, you went back to using Matt

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Speaker 1: ross Bang as a producer like you did on your

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Speaker 1: first two big time albums. Tell me about that.

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Speaker 2: Matt has been just so instrumental and in the shape

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Speaker 2: of my sound, and I knew that I wanted to

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Speaker 2: work with him again. It had been a minute, and

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Speaker 2: I think we've both just grown a lot since those

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Speaker 2: first couple records. Matt's worked on some huge things, and

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Speaker 2: he's just the type of person that's married to his work.

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Speaker 2: He's so in love with being in the studio and

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Speaker 2: making the song be the best it can be. So

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Speaker 2: when I, yeah, when I talked to him about getting

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Speaker 2: back in there together, we were both just thrilled. It was.

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Speaker 2: It was a great experience, It really was.

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Speaker 1: Okay, tell the story about how you met Matt going

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Speaker 1: to Sun Studios.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Matt worked there at Sun for years and years,

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Speaker 2: and he was an engineer there. He also gave tours.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of how I first stumbled upon Son. I

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Speaker 2: was on a musical tour stopped in Memphis, on my

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Speaker 2: way to Texas and literally saw a little you know

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Speaker 2: sign in the gift shop that said make your own recording,

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Speaker 2: and so I reached out called the number. And Matt

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Speaker 2: was the engineer there at the time, and he soaked

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Speaker 2: up so much of the you know, recording knowledge from

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Speaker 2: Sam Phillips and and you know, the old school way

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Speaker 2: of doing things. I like a lot of music from

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Speaker 2: the eras that he is familiar with, you know, those

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Speaker 2: tape machines and all the kind of organic ways of

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Speaker 2: doing stuff. And I think that's where we where we

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Speaker 2: really vibe.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you say that since you first worked with him,

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Speaker 1: you've both grown. Tell me about that.

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Speaker 2: I think when I got in there to make that

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Speaker 2: first record, I mean I had been in the studio prior,

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Speaker 2: but you know, there's there's just so much to learn

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Speaker 2: about recording, about how to get the most out of

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Speaker 2: out of your voice and what you're capable of. I

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Speaker 2: think when I was younger making those records, you know,

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Speaker 2: I just I had this urgency that was like, I've

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Speaker 2: got to get this out, this has got to I've

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Speaker 2: got to get it out. And I didn't have the

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Speaker 2: luxury of having a huge budget, you know, my husband

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Speaker 2: sold a car. We we sold a lot of our

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Speaker 2: musical gear to make that first record. I mean I

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Speaker 2: pawned my wedding ring. We just kind of went all

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Speaker 2: in and so I really had like a three day

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Speaker 2: budget to get that album done. And as I've grown

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Speaker 2: and you know, sat with those records forever, now it's

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Speaker 2: like I want to get everything perfect. I want it

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Speaker 2: to be, you know, completely completely finished. And and that

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Speaker 2: is something that I've learned. You know, It's like these

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Speaker 2: records are around forever, and if it takes going back

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Speaker 2: and doing another vocal pass or like also just even

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Speaker 2: sitting in there during the mixing process, you know, like

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Speaker 2: it's grueling. But like that's something that in my in

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Speaker 2: my middle age, I've really loved being you know, being

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Speaker 2: there from the conception all the way to the finish

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Speaker 2: line mixed and mastering all the details.

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Speaker 1: And what's different about working with the producer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think being able to take that feedback and

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Speaker 2: to put your ego aside and you know, have somebody

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Speaker 2: else's ear in there too to make sure that, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that you've got the everything you need to make the

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Speaker 2: song memorable. And and like I said, just you know,

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Speaker 2: not not drowning things in too much reverb or too

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Speaker 2: much you know, God forbid auto tune. But that's like

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Speaker 2: the exact opposite of what Matt likes to do. He

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Speaker 2: wants things to be human and not too polished. And

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Speaker 2: so it's a real give and take because I think

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Speaker 2: I could get stuck just you know, in the editing

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Speaker 2: process or in the in the overdub process. And so

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Speaker 2: it's also when to know where you know when it's done,

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Speaker 2: so you don't quote unquote burn the beans.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you made a lot of records, but not with

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Speaker 1: big distribution to your first album with Third Man that

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Speaker 1: blew up really pretty quickly. You are on SNL now

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Speaker 1: it's you know, basically ten years later. The landscape has changed,

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Speaker 1: your relevant of you. Even SNL doesn't mean what it

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Speaker 1: used to mean. So when you sit down, I used

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Speaker 1: to be when you were growing up. Hey, let's get

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Speaker 1: on MTV. Everybody's going to know my record. Today nobody

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Speaker 1: knows every record. So when you go in to make

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Speaker 1: a record, what are the targets and what are your

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Speaker 1: feelings relative to what they used to be.

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Speaker 2: Well, the landscape has changed so much, and you know,

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Speaker 2: the music business is almost even unrecognizable from ten years

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Speaker 2: years ago, because the charts are are dictated by you know,

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Speaker 2: TikTok and social media, and there's good things about the change,

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Speaker 2: and there's not so good things about the change. For me,

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Speaker 2: I try not to get too caught up in you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what I think other people want to

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Speaker 2: hear from me, or what I think is going to

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Speaker 2: you know, be a one of those kind of flash

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Speaker 2: in the pan, you know, like a song that people

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Speaker 2: are putting on their reels, or you know, people are

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Speaker 2: just using fifteen seconds these days, and it's like, that's

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Speaker 2: what that's what's going on now. Who knows, if, you know,

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Speaker 2: we'll ever get the attention span back of the public

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Speaker 2: in the way that it used to be. But I'm

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Speaker 2: still making records that are a holess experience to the record.

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Speaker 2: I'm not. I never got in this wanting to just

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Speaker 2: write pop songs or wanting to just write something that

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Speaker 2: is going to top the charts. I'm here for a

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Speaker 2: part of the music listening population that wants to go

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Speaker 2: a little deeper than wants to go a little bit

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Speaker 2: further than whatever the earworm of the week is.

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Speaker 1: Okay, this is a commercial enterprise. You're on Loma Vista,

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Speaker 1: which is part of a major organization. There's issues of budgets,

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Speaker 1: issues of commercial success now really streams. Do you feel

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Speaker 1: that pressure.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure people would like me to feel that pressure.

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Speaker 2: I I don't know. I have managed to build a

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Speaker 2: career off of having in integrity and off of like

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Speaker 2: the live show and touring, and I you know, of course,

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Speaker 2: would like my albums to do great and to sell

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Speaker 2: as many records as I can. The streaming stuff, it's

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Speaker 2: it's hard for me. It's hard for me to want

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Speaker 2: to have massive streaming numbers because of what those corporations

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Speaker 2: do to artists. So I don't know. I think at

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Speaker 2: the end of the day, I'm still gonna be fine.

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Speaker 2: I'm still gonna be able to you know, feed my family.

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Speaker 2: And I can't get caught up in that because I've

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Speaker 2: never been caught up. I've never been worried about being

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Speaker 2: like on country radio, and you know, the charts have

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Speaker 2: have changed in the way that you know, maybe country

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Speaker 2: radio isn't as important as it used to be. But

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Speaker 2: now it's kind of like, I don't know, it's it's

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Speaker 2: still there's still problems in the music business. They've just changed.

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Speaker 1: So you're making a record in today's market. What's the

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Speaker 1: budget and how long did it take to make it?

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Speaker 2: Well, the budget, you know, they give you like a

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Speaker 2: ballpark estimate, and I went to RCA Studio A So

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Speaker 2: I blew through that budget because I went to the

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Speaker 2: best studio and I want to pay my musicians fairly,

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Speaker 2: and I, like I said, I wasn't going to stop

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Speaker 2: until it was done. And so the budget for this

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Speaker 2: record was substantial. It was. It was healthy. But I

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Speaker 2: have no regrets. That studio sounds incredible and you can

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Speaker 2: hear it. I mean, like we didn't go back in

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Speaker 2: and put a bunch of like reverb and delay on everything,

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Speaker 2: because we were just using the room and we were

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Speaker 2: just using the echo chamber and just the room and

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Speaker 2: RCA and like just knowing like, okay, this is where

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Speaker 2: Dolly made nine to five, you know, like this is

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Speaker 2: where some of my favorite records were made. And it

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Speaker 2: was when people cared about the audio sound. Now everybody

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Speaker 2: just listens through whatever, you know, through the speaker of

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Speaker 2: their phone. But I just got the test pressing and

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Speaker 2: the vinyl sounds incredible, and there's just there's no comparing it,

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Speaker 2: and so until they take the keys away from me,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do my best to have records sound

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Speaker 2: warm and not everything all compressed and sounds like shit,

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Speaker 2: like you know when you do turn on country radio,

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Speaker 2: like that's what you hear. You hear a bunch of

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Speaker 2: compressed garbage. And uh, we've got a task Cam three

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Speaker 2: eighty eight reel to reel in my house in this

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Speaker 2: in this room here. My husband's been really getting acquainted

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Speaker 2: with how to work it, and he's been recording a

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Speaker 2: bunch of stuff on there. So even if I do

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Speaker 2: make a record that has you know, isn't going into

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Speaker 2: to RCAA Studio A and have a huge budget, it

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Speaker 2: still is going to sound warm, because that's just what

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Speaker 2: I gravitate towards anything done in the sixties and the

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Speaker 2: seventies and analog warmth in those in those ways.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you made a video that's a take off on

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Speaker 1: the video from Subterranean Homesick Blues, and you write in

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Speaker 1: your book which is quite interesting about being a big

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Speaker 1: Dylan fan. I mean, you talk about playing a gig

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Speaker 1: and playing winter Lude from New Morning. Most people don't

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Speaker 1: even know that track. So what's your favorite Bob Dylan album.

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Speaker 2: Ah, that such a tough question. I think it all

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Speaker 2: depends on the mood. But I love Desire. I go

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Speaker 2: back to that record all the time. The songs on it,

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Speaker 2: of course, like Emmylu's harmony singing, which I as soon

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Speaker 2: as I met Emmy that was one of the things

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Speaker 2: I had to ask her about, you know, because she

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Speaker 2: notoriously hated her vocals on there. But yeah, I love

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Speaker 2: I have such a soft spot for Desire. That's kind

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Speaker 2: of been the the mood I've been in. But Dylan

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Speaker 2: is like number one artist for me. He's the best

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Speaker 2: songwriter that's ever been. And I'll dance on Steve Earl's

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Speaker 2: coffee table and argue that. And I love Towns Okay.

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Speaker 1: So you know, Desire follows up Blood on the Tracks,

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Speaker 1: which is sort of a comeback for Dylan after his

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Speaker 1: tour with the band and Planet Ways, which sold and

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Speaker 1: really was not embraced critically at the time. So if

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Speaker 1: I asked you, like, other than that album, give me

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Speaker 1: some other Dylan tracks that you're a fan of.

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Speaker 2: Oh, other other than that album? I mean, gosh, I

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Speaker 2: know all the deep cuts, I mean even the you know,

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Speaker 2: please missus Henry and all the stuff that he was

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Speaker 2: writing half Baked with the band. You know, that record

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Speaker 2: changed things for me. Million Dollar Bash, Like, there's just

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Speaker 2: there's so many different and I loved I mean, Planet

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Speaker 2: Waves has some gems too, and I even love like

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Speaker 2: Bob's coming to Jesus Records, you know, like you got

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Speaker 2: to serve somebody. I've it's taken me a long time

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Speaker 2: to get into all his records, but I mean John

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Speaker 2: Wesley Harding, even the ones that people don't like, I'm like, no,

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Speaker 2: there's great. There's great songs in there. And I think

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Speaker 2: anybody that's that doesn't like Bob Dylan really has no

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Speaker 2: business playing music.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you know there are different periods with Dylan. You know,

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Speaker 1: the earlier records all you know, there's a run of

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Speaker 1: words like my favorite song is It's all Right Ma

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Speaker 1: from Bringing It All back Home. Once you get John

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Speaker 1: Wesley Harding and National Skyline, it slows down a little bit.

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Speaker 1: These are different periods. What have you learned from listening

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Speaker 1: to Bob Dylan that has affected your own life or songwriting?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think he never got stuck doing the same

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Speaker 2: thing too long, and he was always, you know, burning

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Speaker 2: through different things for inspiration. And obviously there's that quote

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Speaker 2: that is supposed to be Bob's that's like amateur's borrow

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Speaker 2: and professional steel. And I think Bob was just he

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Speaker 2: just he was a conduit. But he also was a

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Speaker 2: great thief and interpreter of other people's work and being

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Speaker 2: able to take it and bring it into your own.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm I'm a big believer in tradition and

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Speaker 2: like rooted music. You know, everything comes from the blues,

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Speaker 2: everything comes from the Irish, you know, folk songs back

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Speaker 2: in the day, that's really what country music is, or Americana.

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Speaker 2: But think you know Bob, he everything he did was

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Speaker 2: always rooted, but he found different, you know, different ways

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Speaker 2: to bring all these different genres into into what he did,

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Speaker 2: whether it was gospel, and I mean here he's just

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Speaker 2: you know, he's a Jewish kid, and he somehows I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna make a gospel record. I've loved people that could

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Speaker 2: be chameleons in that way. And I think that's how

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Speaker 2: he never got I mean, like you said, he did

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Speaker 2: have periods where he you know, would disappear and his

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Speaker 2: work got slower, but like he just he kept moving,

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Speaker 2: he kept creating, he kept coming back to things, and

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Speaker 2: I think, you know, maybe my career would be further

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Speaker 2: along had I stayed in the country world the whole time,

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Speaker 2: or it stayed in the Americano world the whole time.

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Speaker 2: But like I had to just for my own sanity,

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Speaker 2: like visit these other genres that I love so much.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I I don't regret making a psychedelic rock album.

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Speaker 2: I don't regret kind of crossing over into these other

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Speaker 2: things because that's just what I felt pulled to do.

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Speaker 2: And when you make your passion into your career, it

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Speaker 2: can make the whole thing like not as sexy as

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Speaker 2: it was because you've got people depending on you financially,

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Speaker 2: and you know, you've got you've got employees, and you've

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Speaker 2: got to think about paying your bills and oh what,

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Speaker 2: you know, what am I going to do that's going

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Speaker 2: to be successful? But at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: I just I think that's that's what I've learned from Bob,

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Speaker 2: is to just keep moving, keep being inspired, and you know,

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Speaker 2: nothing is really off limits when it comes to genres.

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Speaker 1: So what have you stolen?

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Speaker 2: Haven't I stolen? Yeah? I think you know, even in

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Speaker 2: my first record, I was borrowing so much from like

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Speaker 2: Loretta Lynn, I was borrowing. I mean, even the title

258
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Speaker 2: of Midwest Farmer's Daughter, like that came from a Beach

259
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Speaker 2: Boys song.

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Speaker 1: You know, okay, wait to stop for a second. That's

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Speaker 1: a great song off the second Beach Boys album. How

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Speaker 1: do you know that song?

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Speaker 2: I was born in the wrong time. I literally everything

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Speaker 2: in my home it looks like I'm you know, was

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Speaker 2: graduated the year my parents graduated, which was like nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy three. But I had one of those dads that would,

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Speaker 2: you know, put me in the back of the car

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Speaker 2: and do the quizzing. Okay, who's this? You know, who's this? Uh,

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Speaker 2: it's the doors. It's Jim Morris and dad, you know,

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Speaker 2: like he educated me when it came to classic rock

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Speaker 2: and blues. And then my grand my grandmother loved country music.

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Speaker 2: And my uncle was a songwriter here in Nashville's name

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Speaker 2: is Bob Fisher, and he wrote songs for George Jones,

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Speaker 2: Tanya Charlie Pride. So that was where I got the

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Speaker 2: like country kind of influence from. And I mean, of

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Speaker 2: course I listened to contemporary music in the nineties, like

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Speaker 2: I was listening to Doctor dre and and Snoop Dogg

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Speaker 2: and Eminem. But I was also like very into loosen

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Speaker 2: To Williams and Gilly Walch and like the songwriting that

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Speaker 2: was going on then, and Tom Petty and Fleetwood Mac

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Speaker 2: and Heartbreakers. So I don't know, I feel like in

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Speaker 2: the nineties is when everything really started to get shit

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Speaker 2: and you know, get worse, especially the two thousands, like

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Speaker 2: the boy bands and like the pop music that was

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Speaker 2: going on then. I just find it really insufferable. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: I've just lived in another decade for a very long time.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you grew up in Nowheeresville, Illinois, western part of Illinois,

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Speaker 1: and you're listening to Gin and Juice and Doggy Style.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I live in Los Angeles, I know where

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Speaker 1: Englewood is. I know we're all on Beachwitter. What's it

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Speaker 1: like listening to those records where there may not even

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Speaker 1: be a black person with an X number of miles.

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Speaker 2: Very good point there was. Yeah, there was like one

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Speaker 2: black family in my town and they were adopted by

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Speaker 2: a white family, so that tells you that. Yeah, I

296
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Speaker 2: don't know. It just was like my parents didn't want

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Speaker 2: me to listen to it. So that's was really the

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Speaker 2: motivation behind it, I don't know. I I think, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was just what everybody else in my in my

300
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Speaker 2: school was listening to. And really at that time, I

301
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Speaker 2: wasn't as big into the nineties country as you know.

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Speaker 2: It was like I could kind of take it or

303
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Speaker 2: leave it. Like when I really fell in love with country,

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Speaker 2: that was getting into stuff that was older. So I

305
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Speaker 2: think at the time it was just like compared to,

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Speaker 2: like I said, the Christina Aguileras and the you know,

307
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Speaker 2: in Sync and stuff like that, it was like I

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Speaker 2: resonated more with with Wrap, which is is hilarious to say.

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Speaker 1: But Okay, so you're in high school, these records are

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Speaker 1: coming out. You know, there's a whole lifestyle attitude vocabulary

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Speaker 1: in these records. So were you and your friends imitating

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Speaker 1: that living.

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Speaker 2: That Yeah, we were definitely. I was drinking way too young,

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Speaker 2: I was. I had my first drink at the age

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Speaker 2: of I think twelve, and the pot smoking that came

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Speaker 2: around sixteen. And yeah, there wasn't a lot to do

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Speaker 2: in my town, and so substances became became a part

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Speaker 2: of my life very quickly. Unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to the beginning. Your parents and

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Speaker 1: grandparents are turning you on to music. At what point

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Speaker 1: do you first start to play an instrument?

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Speaker 2: So piano lessons started around yeah, early elementary seven eight

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Speaker 2: years old, I think was when the piano came around.

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Speaker 2: And then at twelve, well, before you.

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Speaker 1: Go out there usually you know, I'm a little older

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Speaker 1: than you. It was like an unwritten rule in a

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Speaker 1: Jewish family, it start taking piano lessons. How did you

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Speaker 1: end up taking piano lessons? Was there already pen in

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Speaker 1: the home and parents said you're going to do this?

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Speaker 1: And was it like a chore or did you see

331
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Speaker 1: a piano say hey, I'd like to play the Well

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Speaker 1: I was.

333
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Speaker 2: I was singing from a very early age and I

334
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Speaker 2: would just sing a cappella all the time. And so

335
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Speaker 2: my parents saw the need that you know, I was

336
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Speaker 2: asking them to take piano lessons, and so they bought

337
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 2: a little spin at piano and then I did. I

338
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,679
Speaker 2: don't know my teacher, she kind of taught me boring songs,

339
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Speaker 2: but I would sit there and make things up. But

340
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Speaker 2: it was it was a privilege. It was a luxury

341
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Speaker 2: because neither of my parents ever had a musical lesson,

342
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Speaker 2: and so you know, they kind of spun it that way.

343
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Speaker 2: So it was for me, it was it was fun,

344
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Speaker 2: it was fun to learn. I didn't like I said,

345
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Speaker 2: I didn't love my teacher, and so I very quickly

346
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Speaker 2: used all the money from my eighth grade graduation cards

347
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Speaker 2: and got a guitar and started teaching myself on that started.

348
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Speaker 2: I would always bring my guitar everywhere to all the

349
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Speaker 2: parties and to you know, we would go cruise around

350
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Speaker 2: on these back roads and I would bring the guitar

351
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Speaker 2: in the back of the car and try to learn

352
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 2: whatever song me and my friends were into, and you know,

353
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Speaker 2: kind of karaoke. It.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you didn't grow up in a big town, but

355
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Speaker 1: you know, when I went to high school, there was

356
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Speaker 1: the kid or the multiple kids who played the guitar,

357
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Speaker 1: and when you went to a party, they would play

358
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Speaker 1: were you that kid or were you the wannabe kid?

359
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Speaker 2: I was. I was a bit shy, but I would

360
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Speaker 2: try to break myself out of the shell. Like I said,

361
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Speaker 2: a couple a couple of beers here and there there

362
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Speaker 2: would be I would I would sit around and play

363
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Speaker 2: some songs. But it was like I was learning kind

364
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Speaker 2: of more quiet folky stuff like Pieces of You by

365
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Speaker 2: jewel or you know, like I was saying, like Gillian

366
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Speaker 2: Welch was just massive for me. I was very into

367
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Speaker 2: like the kind of like sad, more quiet. You know.

368
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Speaker 2: There were other people that were like in the school

369
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Speaker 2: that were playing like led Zeppelin, and I would learn

370
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Speaker 2: a couple of chords from them and try to hang

371
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Speaker 2: out with them. But I don't know, I was more

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Speaker 2: of a little bit more of a folky Okay.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like Gillian Welch was on the radio. She

374
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Speaker 1: certainly didn't have a hit record. So how did you

375
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Speaker 1: find all this sad music? You know?

376
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Speaker 2: I think word of mouth. Like I remember a friend

377
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Speaker 2: like giving me the Lucinda CD, and that kind of

378
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,719
Speaker 2: opened like a door into music that was not on

379
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Speaker 2: the radio, like I said, the like nineties country that

380
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:57,199
Speaker 2: a lot of people were listening to. But yeah, it was,

381
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Speaker 2: I mean it was it was massive to I hear

382
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 2: people writing songs that just felt not like what was

383
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Speaker 2: coming out of you know, the local stations. And I

384
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Speaker 2: didn't really have cable either, but I would go to

385
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Speaker 2: my grandmother's house. I would watch MTV at her house.

386
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Speaker 2: I would also I mean, there were just like music magazines,

387
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Speaker 2: like reading like actually picking up like a copy of

388
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Speaker 2: Rolling Stone and like and waiting for like a CD

389
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Speaker 2: to come out like that was it was huge. And

390
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,360
Speaker 2: then sometimes you know, I would also like make bootleg

391
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 2: cassettes off of like radio stations and record things so

392
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 2: I could listen back to it later. But yeah, it

393
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Speaker 2: just seems like a whole different time.

394
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Speaker 1: Now, Okay, what kind of kid were you in high school?

395
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Speaker 1: You obviously had some friends, you run around drinking and drugging,

396
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 1: But were you like, oh, Margo, yeah, use that odd

397
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: girl in the corner, or you the cheerleader type? What

398
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: kind of kid were you? I was.

399
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,959
Speaker 2: I was a bit preppy because I think that was

400
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 2: just like the only way to really be accepted in

401
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 2: my town. It was all about football, American football. And

402
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 2: I was a cheerleader, and I sang the national anthem

403
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 2: at like all the football games, all the basketball games.

404
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 2: I was in choir. And my chorus teacher did not

405
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 2: give me very many solos. She didn't give me many ensembles,

406
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 2: she didn't give me many parts at all. Why she said,

407
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 2: my voice didn't blend and my voice was not a

408
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 2: good blending voice. And I mean it is like it

409
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 2: can be a bit waspy, it can really cut through,

410
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 2: but like, yeah, never until my senior year she me

411
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 2: the solo at the baccalaureate concert I got to and

412
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 2: then she gave me the McKinley Award for music like

413
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 2: my senior year. But like it was, I just felt

414
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 2: like she did not like me, and so I wanted

415
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 2: to have more of like a role in the arts world.

416
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 2: But I just I didn't thrive in there as much

417
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 2: as I could have. I think, I don't know. I

418
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 2: did jazz choir, I did show choir. I was always

419
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 2: doing you know, choir events. But like I said, I

420
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 2: wasn't getting I wasn't getting the solos, that's for sure.

421
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 1: Oka Is that because she's a prick or you know?

422
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: Are you the type of person that gets along with everybody?

423
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 1: Are you the type of person has an agy personality?

424
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 1: They either like you they don't.

425
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think I'm honestly pretty agreeable, and

426
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 2: unfortunately I've been a people pleaser just because of sitch

427
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 2: situations around me growing up and you know, childhood traumas

428
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 2: and bullshit like that. I I don't know. I mean,

429
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 2: I did rebel here and there in school, and I

430
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 2: did run with the rowdy crowd, but I don't know.

431
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 2: She was also just very tough. She was a really

432
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 2: tough instructor and I had her all the way from

433
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 2: sixth grade through to high school. I had another voice teacher.

434
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 2: Her name was Sue Clark. She taught me mezzo soprano Italian,

435
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 2: you know, opera style singing. And I was working so hard,

436
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 2: you know, but the but the vocal coach in my

437
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: high school, she she just did not like me. And

438
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 2: now she'll say that, you know, she taught me everything

439
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 2: that I know, and she's always like acts like she

440
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 2: was always supportive.

441
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: But do you have any contact with her? How do

442
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: you know that.

443
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 2: I've heard through the grape vine, on the on the

444
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: Facebook or whatever. But I she was like judge Judy.

445
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 2: She was really tough. She ruled with an iron fist.

446
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: And yeah, but you know, there's this syndrome. Maybe I'm

447
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: beating the dead horse here where the most talented person.

448
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: It's almost like the teacher has to teach that personal

449
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: lesson and put them in their place, kind of getting

450
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: that vibe from you.

451
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: It could have been a bit that it could it

452
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 2: could have been a little bit of that. I mean

453
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 2: I definitely can be headstrong and I definitely not shied

454
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 2: away from opinions that I'm sure lots of people would

455
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 2: rather me keep my mouth shut. But that's that's the

456
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: good part about me and the bad part.

457
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 1: Okay, that scene. What kind of academic student were you? I?

458
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 2: I always had people saying, you're not working up to

459
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 2: your full potential. You know. It was always daydreams. Applying

460
00:29:52,760 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 2: your Yeah, absolutely, I I did. Okay, I I could,

461
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 2: I could have applied myself more, but I was always

462
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 2: just like daydreaming and I don't know, chasing boys, hanging

463
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 2: out with friends.

464
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: And your parents will they give you any guidance telling

465
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: you what to do.

466
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 2: I was the first born of three girls, and they

467
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 2: were really tough on me. They were very, very controlling

468
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 2: and wanted me to be safe all the time. But

469
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 2: I definitely gave them a run for their money. I

470
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 2: you know, like I said, I got okay grades, I passed,

471
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 2: but I was I've always had a rebellious streak. And

472
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: my parents they were always catching me, yeah, drinking, smoking weed,

473
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 2: whatever it was. They wanted me to just be a good,

474
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 2: normal kid, and I was like sign number one, like

475
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: she's gonna to be a musician.

476
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: Was it in your DNA? How about boys?

477
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that was That's always been a trouble for me.

478
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 2: That's always been an issue.

479
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: What does that mean?

480
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 2: Everybody thinks I'm like a man hater because I'm a feminist,

481
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 2: but I really I love men way too much. I've

482
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 2: had well, yeah, my last band, you know, kind of

483
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 2: broke up because there was there was a lot of

484
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: interpersonal relationships going on. My keyboard player was married to

485
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 2: my bass player. I had an affair with my guitarist.

486
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 2: My husband and I stayed, have worked things out. He's

487
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 2: been my closest collaborator for twenty one years. We've grown

488
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: up together and he's by far my greatest support. And

489
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 2: I mean we went through a lot of trauma together.

490
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 2: We lost a child. We were struggling in the music

491
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: business for years. So now it's like we get to

492
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 2: live out our dreams and write these songs and be

493
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 2: in Nashville. I'm really lucky he's stuck with me through

494
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: all my all my wild years.

495
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: Okay, you're in a band, you're struggling, and there you know,

496
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: there's a married couple in your band. Do you ever think, well,

497
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: maybe this isn't a good thing to do to have

498
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: an affair or was it something beneath it other than

499
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: you know, we say, I'm going to teach somebody a lesson.

500
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: I'm so frustrated. What was going through your mind?

501
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I, like I said, we had been

502
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 2: through a major trauma, we lost a child, and things

503
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 2: were it was just it was a dark time. There

504
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 2: was too much drinking going on, There was too much drugging.

505
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 2: There was, like I said, just decades of failure that

506
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 2: had accrued. And really it was it was just a

507
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 2: lot of bad decisions leading up to you know what

508
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 2: completely turned around. I mean, I've I've never been in

509
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 2: a better place emotionally, artistically, creatively, but I think we

510
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 2: had to go through that dark time to even you know,

511
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 2: have the material, the songs, everything that we had. I

512
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: know it sounds like cliche, but I before we had

513
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 2: those major traumas in our life like this, the songs

514
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: just really weren't as deep because I had not been

515
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: through the struggles that you know are oftentimes fodder for

516
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 2: for good songs and life lessons and poetry. And yeah,

517
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 2: it's it's a time that I look back on and

518
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 2: I you know, I used to be embarrassed of what

519
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 2: I went through or you know, not want to talk

520
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 2: about it, but it's it gave give me the outlook

521
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: that I have now. It gave me all the strength

522
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,760
Speaker 2: to get through that time, to just have the character.

523
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: Now, Okay, you had an affair. You ultimately told your husband.

524
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: It sounds like he acted out a little bit. Not

525
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: to mention that. I talk about the death of the child,

526
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 1: although not that long after the child is born, but

527
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: frequently that breaks up a relationship after people step out,

528
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: how do you rekindle it and how do you rekindle

529
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 1: the trust?

530
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,879
Speaker 2: It's been it's been a journey for both of us.

531
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 2: We have done therapy individually together we have I mean,

532
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: we've written songs about it, which is just sounds insane,

533
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 2: but it's it's all in there if anyone's listening to

534
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 2: the lyrics, and I think, you know, having very deep talks,

535
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 2: have having each other's back.

536
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: And.

537
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: It's you know, any marriage is a lot of work,

538
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 2: but what we have is just it's so much deeper

539
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: than just just a regular marriage because we are creative partners.

540
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 2: It's like John and Paul, It's like Robert Hunter and

541
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 2: the grateful dead. It's like it is like Dave and Gillian,

542
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 2: where it's like I just I think it took us

543
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 2: so long to get to this like healthy place that

544
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 2: we're at now, and it feels like a miracle honestly

545
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 2: that we got through it, because I think eighty percent

546
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 2: of people that lose a child are separated, and then

547
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: fifty percent of all marriages in general just end in divorce.

548
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 2: So I feel like we have like beat the odds

549
00:35:52,800 --> 00:36:00,240
Speaker 2: in just this huge way. And yeah, it's not been easy.

550
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 1: Okay, you're married to this guy, jereed me. You work

551
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: with them. I mean a lot of people wake up

552
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 1: in the morning, have breakfast, go to work for six

553
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: or eight hours, come home, they're separate. You're together all

554
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: the time. Doesn't that cause extra friction?

555
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 2: Well, we do. We do try to take time, whether

556
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 2: it's like sometimes he's staying home with the children and

557
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 2: I'm going out on the road by myself and sometimes

558
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 2: he will take a writing retreat or you know, we

559
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 2: really do make as Khalil Jabron says, let there be

560
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 2: spaces in your togetherness, because it's it can be really

561
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 2: challenging when you're dating one of your band members and

562
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 2: he's so good. He's like Brian Wilson in the way

563
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 2: that it's like he just loves to be home. He

564
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 2: loves to be in the studio, he loves to be writing,

565
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 2: and and he loves to travel as well. But like,

566
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 2: you know, there's we've kind of reached this point where

567
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: it's like, okay, like this is what you do, well,

568
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 2: this is what I do. Well, we're gonna we don't

569
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 2: always have to be on the road together, like twenty

570
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 2: four to seven, because it can be really challenging.

571
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 1: Okay, this is something that comes up. No one really

572
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: made a deep dive in it. Prior to cell phone cameras.

573
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: One of the reasons men got into music was to

574
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: go on the road, drink drug and have sex. I mean,

575
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 1: the cliche is sex, drugs rock and roll. So what's

576
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: it like being a woman on the road, especially when

577
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: your husband is not there.

578
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, in my twenties and in

579
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 2: my thirties, it was a much different thing than it

580
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 2: is now. I think I'm I don't know, I'm a

581
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 2: little more focused on like using my free time to

582
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 2: write songs or work on a book, write haikus, and

583
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: go to vintage stores. And you know, I mean I

584
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 2: definitely was in the phase where it would be like

585
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 2: after the show, you went out and you went to

586
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 2: another bar and you know, hang out, talk to fans,

587
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 2: talk to friends, talk to other bands. I mean it's

588
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 2: still it's still is, you know, traveling and being out.

589
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 2: But I think I think that there's such a misconception

590
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 2: sometimes with touring that it's like the backstage is much

591
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 2: more sexy than it is. It's like, oh, it's really

592
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 2: just a bunch of crew guys pushing around heavy shit

593
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 2: and everybody's like back there, you know, waiting to use

594
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 2: a shower or I don't know, it's it's not as

595
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 2: sexy as maybe it used to be. I mean, it

596
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,839
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that I'm totally sober and there's not any

597
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 2: fun times, because they're definitely is fun times. And sometimes

598
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 2: I do still party, but I just have to really

599
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 2: like plan my partying.

600
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: Okay, you've been at this for a couple of decades.

601
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: What's it like being an attractive, successful woman on the road.

602
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 1: I mean, men have groupies. Do you have guys that

603
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: you have to keep at arm's length? We read about,

604
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: you know, the stalkers of Taylor Swift, and other people.

605
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: What's the experience for you.

606
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,240
Speaker 2: I definitely have to be careful about opening up my dms.

607
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 2: Sometimes you don't know what people are going to send you,

608
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 2: but I just try not to do that anyway. I think,

609
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 2: you know, I do like to protect my privacy. I

610
00:39:57,960 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 2: I like to have someone out there with me that

611
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 2: can give a little muscle and keep me safe for sure.

612
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 2: But I think for the most part, I have I

613
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 2: have some really great fans, and I have a lot

614
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 2: of people that I think that come out to my

615
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 2: shows and the thing that they want. I do a

616
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 2: lot of Like when I do my headlining tour, I'll

617
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 2: do meet and greets and do like a VIP package,

618
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 2: and really it's supposed to be me just singing a

619
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 2: couple of songs and take a group photo, but I

620
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 2: always end up meeting. If there's time, I'll try to

621
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,919
Speaker 2: meet everyone individually, take a photo with everyone individually, talk

622
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 2: to folks, and I think, you know, really they I

623
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 2: have a lot of people that want to trauma bond

624
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 2: with me, and they want to share their story. You know,

625
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 2: I lost this person, Oh I lost my husband, and

626
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 2: you know, we used to come to your shows or

627
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 2: I mean there's just people love to share their stories

628
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 2: of what they went through and how my songs helped

629
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 2: them through it. So a lot of times I feel

630
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 2: like it's a more innocent every now and then, Yeah,

631
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 2: you get the swinger couple that comes up, Oh my

632
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 2: husband's get out of jail free card, or you know,

633
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,760
Speaker 2: like you've got people want me to sign their boobs

634
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 2: or yeah, sign other areas of their body. But like

635
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 2: I said, I always have I always have someone there

636
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 2: with me to kind of make sure that I'm that

637
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 2: I'm safe.

638
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to the narrative. So you're singing

639
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 1: in high school, you get this McKinley award, I think

640
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:37,320
Speaker 1: you said, and what's the dream? Then at what point

641
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 1: do you say, hmmm, this music thing, this is what

642
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: I want to do.

643
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 2: I was really young when I first started saying I

644
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 2: wanted to be an actress or I wanted to be

645
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 2: a singer and career day I remember that came about

646
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 2: and I had like the guidance counselor at school say like,

647
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 2: oh no, you you can't be a singer. That's not

648
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 2: a career. And I feel like, from the age of

649
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,879
Speaker 2: like twelve thirteen on, I always wanted to prove it

650
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,479
Speaker 2: to people. It was like, oh, okay, because my mom

651
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 2: was there saying, no, you can, you can do that.

652
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 2: If that's what you want to do, you can absolutely

653
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 2: do that. But really it was when I took this

654
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,919
Speaker 2: massive mushroom trip on psilocybin. I was eighteen years old.

655
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 2: I was in college, and I took an eighth of

656
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 2: mushrooms and just completely went to outer space. And as

657
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 2: I came back down, I realized that I didn't want

658
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 2: to be living in the Midwest anymore. I did not

659
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: want to study communications or Spanish or whatever. And I

660
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 2: visited Nashville during spring break of my sophomore year and

661
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 2: then dropped out of school, moved to Nashville, and just

662
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:02,879
Speaker 2: started signing up for every like open mic right night. Yeah,

663
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 2: that was the real turning point. Was like eighteen nineteen.

664
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 1: Okay, you were in college at first, you were a cheerleader.

665
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 1: What was your college experience like before you did drop out.

666
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 2: I was excelling in Spanish. I had changed my major

667
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: from communications to art and dance in theater, so I

668
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 2: was taking a lot of ballet classes, a lot of

669
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 2: modern dance like Martha Graham, Bob Fosse type dance and

670
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 2: theater and all of that. It was good, but I

671
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 2: was still it was really just kind of purposeless. I

672
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 2: was partying a lot. I was just drinking way too much.

673
00:43:53,440 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 2: I ended up getting alcohol poisoning sophomore year and they

674
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 2: hauled me off to the hospital. It was I was

675
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 2: driftless and just experimenting with a lot of substances. But

676
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 2: I met a lot of really cool people that were

677
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 2: into great music and we would get together and hang

678
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 2: out and jam and so that side of everything was growing,

679
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 2: just musically, and you know, I'd go over and like

680
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 2: sit behind a drum kit and play with people and

681
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: try to learn songs. I met some friends that were

682
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 2: also writing songs and we would we would, you know,

683
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 2: swap lyrics and music and everything. But it was, yeah,

684
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 2: the schooling part was just really boring to me. It

685
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 2: was really just more about the socializing and and.

686
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: That's where college is. But whatever, what did your parents

687
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: say when you said you were going to drop out?

688
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 2: They thought it was crazy, and they they wanted me

689
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 2: to finish college because you know, like I said, that

690
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 2: a luxury that my mom graduated college, but my dad

691
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:05,919
Speaker 2: never did. Nobody on his side of the family did,

692
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 2: and so he was really frustrated with me. I thought

693
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 2: it was just a crazy idea to move to Nashville.

694
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,320
Speaker 2: And I didn't even want to be a country singer.

695
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 2: I just wanted to be a songwriter. Nashville Star was

696
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 2: like all the rage at that time, and it was

697
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:29,760
Speaker 2: just I didn't like anything that I heard. I don't

698
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 2: like any of the poppy country stuff and I still don't.

699
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 2: And I but there was this other scene that was

700
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 2: going on at the time in Nashville, and it was

701
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 2: like down by like exit in and Elliston Place, and

702
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 2: it was like called the Rock Block at the time.

703
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 2: And so between that and then just going to the

704
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 2: open mic like Writers' Nights and hearing people that were

705
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 2: just really good songwriters, you know. I mean some of

706
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 2: them probably had cuts and had hits, but I don't know.

707
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 2: I really wanted to move to New York or California,

708
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 2: and my parents were like, no way, you don't know

709
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 2: how to drive in in that kind of traffic, Like

710
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 2: you just need to go here because it's closer. And

711
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 2: so's it's really funny that I ended up making country

712
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 2: music after all, but not the kind of country music

713
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 2: that you know, like was thriving in the nineties in

714
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 2: the two thousands, I just I didn't. I didn't like

715
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 2: Nashville Star, I didn't like I didn't like American idol.

716
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 2: I didn't I know what I don't like.

717
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: Okay, you come to Nashville, put it mildly. You don't

718
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: have any success, Okay, and in the back of your

719
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: mind you say, shit, maybe I should go back to college.

720
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: I mean, there's the Bruce Springsteen live album where his

721
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: mother says, you know, you can still go back to college.

722
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. I thought about all sorts of different ways I

723
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 2: could pivot my career to be a photographer for pivot

724
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,439
Speaker 2: my career to you know, still do something artistic. And

725
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 2: and I was teaching a lot of children at the time.

726
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 2: I was the director of like the dance program, and

727
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 2: and I could incorporate music in those ways, like I

728
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 2: would choreograph like ballets to like Sid Barrett and like

729
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 2: the Beatles and really weird songs like you know, Brian

730
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 2: Wilson's like Smile, Like that's that's good music for like

731
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 2: children's tap dances. But so I had I had that

732
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 2: like as a creative outlet. But I definitely didn't feel fulfilled,

733
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 2: and people asked, especially when I got pregnant, it was like, okay,

734
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 2: now you're going to give it up right, like it's

735
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 2: been a decade, like nothing's happening for you. And I

736
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,720
Speaker 2: just we just kept going. I just kept barreling ahead.

737
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back at chatter. We have two sisters.

738
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: Did they go to finish college? What are they up to?

739
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:03,240
Speaker 2: So my the middle sister is a very successful business woman,

740
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 2: and she had a BMW and a nice house and

741
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 2: a hot tub, and and here I'm living in Squalor,

742
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 2: you know, three years older than her. I've got like

743
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 2: rats in my house and you know, just everything in

744
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 2: the house is from a thrift store. And so yeah,

745
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:26,720
Speaker 2: my middle sister has always been just like business savvy,

746
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 2: good with money, computer science, brain. My youngest sister, she's

747
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 2: kind of an artist like me. She's a dancer and

748
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 2: she's traveled the world and performed and done stuff with

749
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 2: video and television and all sorts of different things. But

750
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 2: uh yeah, I'm the oldest, the oldest of three.

751
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,879
Speaker 1: Okay, you go back to your hometown, your family, your relatives,

752
00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 1: the people you grew up with. Are they respect and

753
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: into your success or there's someone putting you down because

754
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 1: you've got out.

755
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 2: It's a combination of both. Yeah, I hate it when

756
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 2: people think I'm like too good for them, because I

757
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 2: really have tried to remain true to who I am.

758
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 2: But I think, yeah, you know, it's when you've got

759
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 2: a large group of people who never got away, who've

760
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 2: never seen anything else, there is going to be a

761
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 2: little bit of a level of that. But also, I

762
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 2: mean when I go back to my hometown, it's like

763
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 2: I am such a celebrity there. There's like a sign

764
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 2: when you come into town. It's like home of Margot

765
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 2: Price and right by the football sign, you know, Big

766
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 2: ten you know, state champs these years. And then also

767
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 2: home of Susie Bogas also is from my hometown. She's

768
00:49:56,560 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 2: a nineties country star. So I go there, I go

769
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 2: to you know, go to the grocery store, and people

770
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 2: people are proud of me. People are proud of me

771
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 2: there too.

772
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:09,280
Speaker 1: Wait, wait, how many people live in this town?

773
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 2: Like less than four thousand for sure.

774
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,720
Speaker 1: And there's a sign, a permanent sign this is home

775
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: of Margot Brice. Yeah, I mean it's kind of like

776
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 1: a star on Hollywood Boulevard. How does that even happen

777
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 1: it is.

778
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:31,280
Speaker 2: I don't know, I have no idea. I I feel

779
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 2: really lucky that, you know, I've I've got people there

780
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 2: that do support me. And my mom too. She was

781
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 2: a teacher in the town and she's like a celebrity

782
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 2: too because she taught third grade for years. She taught,

783
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 2: so it's like I always we would be, you know,

784
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 2: at the grocery store, and people would be coming up

785
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:51,720
Speaker 2: to my mom and saying, oh, she was my favorite teacher.

786
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 2: She changed my life, you know. And and my grandma

787
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 2: still lives there, and there's a local radio station and

788
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 2: they for me, And yeah, I do love to go

789
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 2: to go back home. I didn't get to go to

790
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 2: my high school graduation. I wanted to go there because

791
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 2: I know there were a lot of people that shit

792
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 2: talked me, and it would be it would be good

793
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 2: to see some people. But I had a show. I

794
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 2: couldn't go back.

795
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 1: You mean the reunion, just to be.

796
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 2: Clear, reunion. Oh yeah, what did I say?

797
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 1: Okay, you move to Nashville, you live with the relative,

798
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 1: then you live with an old college buddy. And these

799
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 1: are not placid situations. I mean, you know, they both

800
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: turned bad. Tell us about that.

801
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, my cousin. I'm a bit estranged from her, but

802
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:55,800
Speaker 2: she used to be pretty well connected in the music business.

803
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 2: She well, she was dating one of the Whalers at

804
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 2: least from Bob Marley and the Whalers, and so she

805
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 2: got me into some cool concerts when I moved here.

806
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 2: But she's a very strong personality and has some substance

807
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 2: substance issues as well. So yeah, lived with her didn't

808
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 2: work out. Lived with another roommate who ended up kind

809
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 2: of leaving with some of my possessions, and have not

810
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:32,240
Speaker 2: spoken to her in twenty years, I you know, I think.

811
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:34,839
Speaker 2: Then after that, I moved in with Jeremy and we've

812
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 2: been living together since then pretty much on and off.

813
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,240
Speaker 2: But we were terrible roommates with each other too, because

814
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 2: we would be really bad about paying our bills and

815
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 2: always getting the electricity shut off, always getting the water

816
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 2: shut off. So yeah, he's been my roommate for the

817
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 2: for the last twenty But it's those early years were crazy.

818
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:00,320
Speaker 2: I was just working any odd job that I could.

819
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 2: I was. There was a couple of times where we

820
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 2: just didn't even have anywhere to be, and I made

821
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 2: friends with an old Vietnam Vet out at Percy Priest

822
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 2: Park out here in Tennessee, and I would go park

823
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:17,439
Speaker 2: my car out there in camp and live with this guy.

824
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 2: I would bring him weed and we were buds. So

825
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 2: there were a lot of people who got me through

826
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 2: those early years, just like crashing on friends' couches, staying

827
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 2: on there and their cabins, and then we would return

828
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 2: the favor too. And like Brittany Howard Alabama, sheiks they

829
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 2: crashed with us, My friends the Deslons, they're a New

830
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 2: Orleans band. Also my friend a Linda from Hoay for

831
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 2: the riff Raft. There was just like a a community

832
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 2: of all of us crashing and lifting each other up.

833
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's basically about the decade before there's any

834
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: real success. How often did you say you referenced it earlier,

835
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: but going a little deeper, I'm going to give up.

836
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,919
Speaker 1: And what kept you going, man?

837
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 2: I I think just pure insanity. I mean, it's what

838
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 2: do they say, like when you do the same thing

839
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:23,720
Speaker 2: over and over and like you don't get another outcome.

840
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 2: That's that's what was happening. But you know, I had

841
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 2: never really made a country record, and I think it

842
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 2: was just again like jumping genres and just reinventing and

843
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 2: thinking like, okay, well I've been in these bands, but

844
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 2: I haven't put out a solo record. I well, let's.

845
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:51,399
Speaker 1: Be let's be clear. You're making records that get no

846
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 1: distribution in a pre streaming era. Okay, So I want

847
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 1: to give the people impression you're making records and to

848
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 1: get and review whatever. You are living way off the

849
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 1: music radar. Okay, so what is going through your mind?

850
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 1: It is a long way from you know, the Liverpool

851
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 1: Dock to the Hollywood Bowl. I mean, you really think

852
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 1: you're gonna make it?

853
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 2: I know, I know. I think it was just I

854
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 2: don't know really. When we made Midwest Farmer's Daughter, it

855
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 2: was like this is our one last ditch effort, because

856
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 2: it was like, all right, we're pouring a lot of

857
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 2: money into making these records, like how many times can

858
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:38,640
Speaker 2: we sell everything we own? How many times can we

859
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 2: like move in with my parents and you know, save

860
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 2: money and then make another record, and also just going

861
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 2: out on tours and having and hemorrhaging money. And I

862
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 2: think it was just, you know, Jeremy was like, no,

863
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 2: we got we're writing the best songs right now. We

864
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 2: kind of looked at it like the whole time we

865
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 2: were just learning the craft, you know, all those records

866
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:04,120
Speaker 2: leading up to Midwest. Farmer's daughter was like, no, we

867
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 2: were just learning how to write. Like this is where

868
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 2: it's just getting good. And so it was him being like,

869
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 2: I'm going to sell the car. You are going to

870
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 2: make this record, and someone's gonna put it out. I think.

871
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 2: You know, my friend Sturgel Simpson, he was he was

872
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 2: taking off right around that time, and he had also

873
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 2: been in the trenches of just like you know, having

874
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:31,920
Speaker 2: an unsuccessful career and seeing how hungry the masses were

875
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 2: for something that wasn't like of the Nashville machine, was like, okay,

876
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 2: Like if he can do it, I think I can

877
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 2: do it, you know. So it was just those little

878
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 2: moments of like, there were so many times where I

879
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 2: almost gave up. I remember one time I played a

880
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:54,080
Speaker 2: show at the Five Spot and guitarist Kenny Vaughan was there.

881
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 2: And you know, Kenny has played with Marty Stewart for

882
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:02,840
Speaker 2: years and he's legendary guitar picker in Nashville, and he

883
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 2: came up to me after the set and he was like,

884
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,879
Speaker 2: that was an incredible show. He's like, you've got it.

885
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:13,439
Speaker 2: He's like, whatever it is, you've got it, Like, don't

886
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 2: give up, and like he right when he said that.

887
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 2: It was like I really needed it that month. I

888
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 2: really did. I remember just feeling like that was one

889
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 2: of those times where I was just I was out

890
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 2: of mustering the strength myself. There was another time I

891
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 2: played a show with Jasonisboll and he had just you know,

892
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 2: got off the ground with like Southeastern and everything, and

893
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 2: he also came up to me and like gave me

894
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 2: some words of encouragement that I just really needed at

895
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 2: the time. And so it was all just blind faith

896
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 2: and uh yeah, like I said, a little bit of stupidity,

897
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 2: a little bit of like naivity, and just a lot

898
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:53,959
Speaker 2: of stubbornness.

899
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 1: Okay, you know, I've been in Nashville a few times.

900
00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 1: I'm not Nashville fluent, but people think, I mean, Nashville's

901
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: really bustling as a metropolis right now. But people think

902
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 1: in the music business, oh, you go, there's a coterie

903
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: of people, there's pickers, you work on records, and you

904
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 1: have these writing sessions. You were like off the grid

905
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 1: in another fucking world. I mean, did you feel like, oh,

906
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 1: fuck that. Or I mean the way you know you

907
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 1: talk about it, you might as well be living in

908
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 1: you know, Oklahoma. You know, there were a few more clubs,

909
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 1: But did you feel like, you know, well, we're in Nashville,

910
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:41,120
Speaker 1: somehow this works, or you had disdain for the Nashville system.

911
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like everybody you were hanging with

912
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 1: broke through.

913
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 2: No, absolutely not. I've seen a lot of really talented

914
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 2: people give it up. I think it's I think it's

915
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 2: so funny that the people in Nashville that ended up

916
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 2: breaking me were a couple guys from Detroit. You know.

917
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:06,960
Speaker 2: It's like Jack White and Ben Swank and Ben Blackwell,

918
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 2: like they were the people that finally like saw something

919
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 2: in me, and I had been trying to kind of

920
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 2: get through to them for a while. There was like

921
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:22,360
Speaker 2: years prior, I had dropped off these series of gifts

922
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 2: that had riddles written on cards that were for Jack,

923
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 2: and it was like bizarre objects and things that I thought, okay,

924
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:32,920
Speaker 2: like if I could get third man into what I'm doing,

925
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 2: because I knew that they were not, you know, they

926
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 2: weren't releasing the homogenized vanilla catfish dinner that they saw

927
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 2: all done on Music Row, they were you know, doing

928
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 2: things that were more rooted. And I especially that Jack

929
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 2: White album with Loretta Lynn, Like that album was so

930
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 2: cool to me. It was like, I don't know, I there,

931
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 2: Like there is is this other side of Nashville that's

932
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:05,479
Speaker 2: always going on. It's like little clubs, cool places. There's

933
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 2: great songwriters and they're not always breaking through, but it

934
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 2: but it exists. And like we had this really strong

935
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 2: click of like it was a few bands and we

936
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 2: would just play shows together and do our thing and

937
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:21,800
Speaker 2: share what we were writing with each other. And it

938
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 2: was like and we don't need to go, you know,

939
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 2: down to Music Row and co write with all these

940
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:31,960
Speaker 2: people that like are just writing the same song over

941
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 2: and over. Like there was a younger, hipper thing going

942
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 2: on in East Nashville. And I'm I'm so lucky that

943
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 2: it was there when it was, because it kept me

944
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 2: going again for a few years, just because it was like,

945
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 2: all right, we might all be underdogs and we might

946
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 2: all be losers, but we're here together and we knew

947
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 2: we were better than half the shit they were pumping

948
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 2: out on the radio. Anyway.

949
01:00:55,400 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 1: Okay, you cut Midwest farmer's daughter, you know your husband says,

950
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 1: we got to give it one more shot. You said earlier.

951
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 1: This is, you know, really the last shot. It's not

952
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 1: like it's embraced immediately.

953
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 2: It was rejected by every label in town, big and small.

954
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:22,919
Speaker 2: I sent it to people in England. I sent it

955
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 2: to people in New York. I mean I was just

956
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 2: scouring the web for like any indie label, you know,

957
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:33,120
Speaker 2: like how do we get this out? And rejection after

958
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 2: rejection came, and it was about a year of just

959
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:41,800
Speaker 2: sitting on that record and being in complete purgatory. It

960
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 2: was like, man, maybe we really did blow this, Like

961
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 2: we shouldn't have sold the car. We shouldn't have like

962
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 2: pawned all of our recording equipment and guitars and jewelry,

963
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 2: and I mean it was it was brutal. And you know,

964
01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 2: some of those record labels and that the replies that

965
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:03,320
Speaker 2: they would give me were just insane. One of them

966
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 2: was like, oh, we we would love to sign Margo,

967
01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:10,120
Speaker 2: but we already have two girls on our label, so

968
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 2: we can't. And now I won't say that label's name,

969
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 2: but they've got many girls and they're all doing well.

970
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 2: I remember another one, Oh, we're aware of who Margo is.

971
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 2: And we're just not interested. It was like they didn't

972
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:27,040
Speaker 2: even listen to it. That was a distribution company. I

973
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:29,920
Speaker 2: mean I woke up sometimes I would read those emails

974
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 2: before I got out of bed in the morning, and

975
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 2: it would just send me like down a drinking spiral.

976
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:40,120
Speaker 2: It was like, well, I've got to go out and

977
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 2: get smashed because people still hate me. So glad I

978
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:46,920
Speaker 2: don't have to live like that anymore. Like now, when

979
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 2: I get a rejection, I just like just go through

980
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 2: the feeling and it's done. But that it was a

981
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:53,760
Speaker 2: really dark period.

982
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 1: Really was okay, how do you end up getting a

983
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:01,400
Speaker 1: nibble from Marca? And the ultimately saying no.

984
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:04,320
Speaker 2: From RCA?

985
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:07,240
Speaker 1: Was it RCA? There's one label said they wanted to change.

986
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:13,000
Speaker 2: It was Sony, Right. Yeah. I had a friend who

987
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 2: her name was Jenny, and she knew some people in

988
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 2: it Sony, and she sent it in and we typed

989
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 2: a really great letter with it, and yeah, they said

990
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 2: come in and we want to hear you play a

991
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 2: couple of these songs with us. And so I go

992
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 2: into Sony's office and sitting up there and they had

993
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 2: been going through like a their CEO had just left

994
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 2: and it was like who's steering the ship kind of thing.

995
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 2: But yeah, they said, we love the album, but we

996
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 2: wondered if you had some stuff that sounded just a

997
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:50,360
Speaker 2: little bit like poppier. We wanted to take off the

998
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:53,280
Speaker 2: fiddle and change the walking bassline on this and this

999
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 2: and this and what about. I'm like, oh, no, you

1000
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 2: want like more of a rock leaning thing. I was

1001
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 2: just doing that with Buffalo cli Over, But like, this

1002
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:03,200
Speaker 2: is what I'm doing now, this is the thing that

1003
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:09,439
Speaker 2: you guys need. And they yeah, they didn't. They didn't

1004
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:13,600
Speaker 2: understand what they had. They didn't understand what it was.

1005
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:15,800
Speaker 2: I think they liked the song four Years of Chances,

1006
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:19,360
Speaker 2: which was like the kind of more like Memphis leaning

1007
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 2: soul funk like vibe, but yeah, the rest of it,

1008
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 2: they wanted to change all of it, and I just

1009
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 2: I just walked away and I said, I'm sorry, I'm

1010
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:30,240
Speaker 2: not changing it. I'm just gonna hold out to see

1011
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 2: if anybody else wants it.

1012
01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:38,520
Speaker 1: Well, just to be clear, was it discussions and they

1013
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 1: were way off base or were they saying we want

1014
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 1: to sign you, but you have to be different.

1015
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was. They were definitely interested, and

1016
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:53,240
Speaker 2: they definitely liked some of what they heard on the album,

1017
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 2: but they were like, we would want to take these

1018
01:04:57,480 --> 01:05:00,560
Speaker 2: back into the studio and do this, this, this with them,

1019
01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 2: And I just was like, I don't. I don't think

1020
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:07,720
Speaker 2: that's the direction you guys need to go. But I mean,

1021
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1022
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:13,040
Speaker 1: Okay, you're in a mirror meeting with these guys, the suits,

1023
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:18,560
Speaker 1: so to speak. You know, not only you're saying, hey, man,

1024
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:21,200
Speaker 1: I don't want to change a fucking note on this record,

1025
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:24,640
Speaker 1: you're also telling them, hey, you guys don't know what's

1026
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:31,360
Speaker 1: going on. Okay. Was this a friendly conversation or was

1027
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:33,520
Speaker 1: it like a standoffish conversation?

1028
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:40,160
Speaker 2: Well, I mean they were technically being friendly to me.

1029
01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 2: I guess I'm talking about you to them. Yeah, I

1030
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:46,240
Speaker 2: don't think I was being very friendly. Probably, I think

1031
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 2: I walked out of there and you're probably like, who

1032
01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 2: the hell was she? What's her? What's her deal? I

1033
01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:55,960
Speaker 2: think I remember walking in that day and the person

1034
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 2: at the front desk said, are you the next Taylor Swift?

1035
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:02,840
Speaker 2: And Taylor who? And there was like, you know, there

1036
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 2: was like Carrie Underwood and Miranda Lambert were lake up

1037
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:07,400
Speaker 2: on the walls, and I was like, I just didn't

1038
01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 2: feel like I was in the right place from the

1039
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 2: get go. Okay, so yeah, how.

1040
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:15,440
Speaker 1: Do you end up? And how much time does it

1041
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 1: take for third Man to say yes?

1042
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 2: So I had friends that knew people that worked at

1043
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:25,760
Speaker 2: Third Man. But I think that I got on the

1044
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:30,439
Speaker 2: radar by a Rolling Stone article that was written about

1045
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:36,840
Speaker 2: me that said it sounded like Loretta Lynn or Jack

1046
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:41,520
Speaker 2: White produced Loretta Lynn. It's they made that comparison. But

1047
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 2: I went in.

1048
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 1: I was the wait time out, time out here, nobody

1049
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:47,960
Speaker 1: from nowhere. How does Rolling Stone write an article about you?

1050
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 2: Well, they came out. They saw this show that I

1051
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:54,680
Speaker 2: played at the Basement East was opening for a guy

1052
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 2: named J. P. Harris and I played since You Put

1053
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:01,480
Speaker 2: Me Down? I played her on the Bottle. I played

1054
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:04,440
Speaker 2: pretty much, you know, half the songs that are on

1055
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:07,320
Speaker 2: Midwest Farmer's Daughter, and had a really great show. And

1056
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:09,840
Speaker 2: this guy walked up to me. He said, I'm Joe Hudek.

1057
01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:11,600
Speaker 2: I just I had just moved here. I'm a writer

1058
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:14,720
Speaker 2: at Rolling Stone. When's your album coming out? And I

1059
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 2: was like, I can't even get anyone to put it out?

1060
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:19,400
Speaker 2: And he was like, okay, I got to write a

1061
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:24,880
Speaker 2: story about you. You're like Nashville's best kept secret. And

1062
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:27,480
Speaker 2: so he wrote that article for me and like that

1063
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 2: it really did. It changed things for me. And I

1064
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:33,680
Speaker 2: don't know if careers are like that anymore. I don't

1065
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:38,480
Speaker 2: know that anybody even reads. But you know, back in

1066
01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 2: the day, that was like it was a huge thing.

1067
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 2: It was just like it was a rolling stone headline.

1068
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:46,600
Speaker 2: It made it made waves, and I went in there

1069
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:49,920
Speaker 2: and yes, just started kind of talking to the guys

1070
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 2: at Third Man.

1071
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 1: The article is printed. It's one of the few times

1072
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:59,120
Speaker 1: you have hope with something and it pays off. Are

1073
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:02,000
Speaker 1: an other people look for you after that article comes out?

1074
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 2: Yeah there, I mean at that point then it was like, okay,

1075
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:11,360
Speaker 2: now the booking agencies are coming around management and stuff

1076
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 2: as well, because before it was like nobody wanted to

1077
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 2: touch me with a ten foot pull. So yeah, that

1078
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:23,520
Speaker 2: article from Joe Hudak, it just it gave me some clout,

1079
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:30,680
Speaker 2: you know, it gave me. It gave me Yeah, just

1080
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:34,519
Speaker 2: like the all right, they've got my back. They're saying

1081
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:40,880
Speaker 2: this is worthwhile. And yeah, that was that was the

1082
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:43,120
Speaker 2: start of things turning around. That was the start.

1083
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:45,559
Speaker 1: Okay, so tell the third Man story.

1084
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:50,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, So third man, like I said I had. I

1085
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:53,240
Speaker 2: had run into Jack White in the past. I ran

1086
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:57,559
Speaker 2: into him once in a parking lot, probably ten years

1087
01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:02,160
Speaker 2: just signing signing with them. But I knew a friend

1088
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 2: who knew Ben Swank who worked there, and he's like,

1089
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:09,280
Speaker 2: we got to get Ben out to a show. He's

1090
01:09:09,320 --> 01:09:11,599
Speaker 2: got to see you live. He's got to Once they

1091
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 2: see you live, they're going to be into it. So

1092
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:18,599
Speaker 2: he came out, we met, we talked. Then it was like, yeah,

1093
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:21,200
Speaker 2: you got it. You should come in and they've got

1094
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:24,000
Speaker 2: to direct to Acetate recording set up there, you know,

1095
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:27,280
Speaker 2: where they can immediately press anything to a record.

1096
01:09:27,320 --> 01:09:27,639
Speaker 1: And so.

1097
01:09:29,120 --> 01:09:31,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a long time though of really making

1098
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:35,080
Speaker 2: the all the dots connect because they were so busy

1099
01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:37,040
Speaker 2: and I would like show up there and I would

1100
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:39,040
Speaker 2: be like can I come in for a meeting today,

1101
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 2: and they'd be like, oh, we're kind of busy. I

1102
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:43,719
Speaker 2: mean really, it was a long process, and I felt

1103
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 2: like they also wanted to like almost just like do

1104
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 2: a screening process with other people to like make sure

1105
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:54,720
Speaker 2: I wasn't a diva or like it was just like

1106
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:58,080
Speaker 2: I can't explain it, but there were so many little

1107
01:09:58,120 --> 01:10:01,000
Speaker 2: things that happened prior to getting some and like going

1108
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:05,280
Speaker 2: in and singing on their direct to acetate thing and

1109
01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:08,519
Speaker 2: later finding out Jack was like watching from behind a

1110
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:11,479
Speaker 2: two way mirror and like listening to me singing live

1111
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:13,920
Speaker 2: to also prove like, okay, she made this record, it's

1112
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:16,040
Speaker 2: not all auto tuned, like she can actually sing.

1113
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:21,800
Speaker 1: Well. How long from when that article Hudec wrote till

1114
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:24,240
Speaker 1: the ink was dry at third Man?

1115
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:29,120
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I would have to go sit

1116
01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:33,839
Speaker 2: down and do the math. But I would think maybe

1117
01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:35,760
Speaker 2: like six to eight months.

1118
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:39,800
Speaker 1: Okay, So okay, with six to eight months, they knew

1119
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:43,960
Speaker 1: who you were, they'd heard the record, you came in

1120
01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:48,400
Speaker 1: and saying live. If you didn't bug them and show

1121
01:10:48,520 --> 01:10:50,080
Speaker 1: up and say I'm here for a meeting, would it

1122
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:50,679
Speaker 1: have happened?

1123
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:55,799
Speaker 2: I don't know. I would like to think that it would,

1124
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:58,559
Speaker 2: but I mean, like I said, I was just kind

1125
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,720
Speaker 2: of relentless. I would just go in there and let's

1126
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:03,519
Speaker 2: let's talk, you know, let's sit down and have a

1127
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:08,599
Speaker 2: meeting and and and finally it you know, it did happen.

1128
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 2: But it's they're they're busy people. They've got you know,

1129
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:15,240
Speaker 2: they're putting out Jack stuff. They're doing his his thing,

1130
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:21,639
Speaker 2: and I, yeah, I really I wanted it. I was hungry.

1131
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:24,800
Speaker 2: I was in there. I was like, this is the

1132
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:27,000
Speaker 2: album cover I have, this is you know, here's the

1133
01:11:27,040 --> 01:11:29,200
Speaker 2: songs they're done. This is like really the only thing

1134
01:11:29,240 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 2: they helped me with was sequencing and getting it all

1135
01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:37,519
Speaker 2: in the in the right order. And they're obviously the

1136
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:41,640
Speaker 2: people that that do their album artwork. They made like

1137
01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:44,719
Speaker 2: the most beautiful package they had, Like you could plant

1138
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:47,480
Speaker 2: pieces of the lyrics and it would grow wild flowers,

1139
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:50,800
Speaker 2: and like they really put a lot of care into

1140
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:53,880
Speaker 2: making that album like come to life in the way

1141
01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:54,280
Speaker 2: that it did.

1142
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:58,720
Speaker 1: Okay, let's be very clear. Six months, we're calling it relentless.

1143
01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:01,600
Speaker 1: How many times a week would you show up or

1144
01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:02,880
Speaker 1: call or email or what?

1145
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:06,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, a couple of times a week I would I

1146
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:09,639
Speaker 2: would email, I would try to call, and then sometimes

1147
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:12,920
Speaker 2: like I would just show up there and go into

1148
01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:17,240
Speaker 2: the record store and there's a back area that I

1149
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:21,639
Speaker 2: was trying to get into, and yeah, it would be like, oh, well,

1150
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:24,479
Speaker 2: we can't do it today, but you know, come back,

1151
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:27,080
Speaker 2: come back next week and we'll try to get a

1152
01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:31,080
Speaker 2: meeting set up. And I mean, I was definitely getting

1153
01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:34,280
Speaker 2: a little frustrated, but they were really nice. And you know,

1154
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:36,240
Speaker 2: my husband would be like, Okay, just go back and again,

1155
01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:38,200
Speaker 2: We'll just go every day. He would drive me up

1156
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:41,200
Speaker 2: there and I would get all dressed up and I

1157
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:44,519
Speaker 2: go in and try to talk about how we were

1158
01:12:44,520 --> 01:12:49,320
Speaker 2: going to take over the world, and then eventually it worked.

1159
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 1: I mean, is this your personality? If you want something,

1160
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:56,480
Speaker 1: You're going to show up a million times?

1161
01:12:57,240 --> 01:12:59,519
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, I am. I'm not going to take no

1162
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:04,679
Speaker 2: FURNI sir, I am a little relentless in retrospect.

1163
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:07,960
Speaker 1: Were they always going to sign you or Dier? It

1164
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:09,760
Speaker 1: feel like they finally relented.

1165
01:13:13,720 --> 01:13:18,920
Speaker 2: I think they were very into the record, but they

1166
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:25,160
Speaker 2: had never put out somebody who wasn't already established. Like

1167
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 2: my lawyer kept telling me that. My lawyer, Kent Marcus,

1168
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:31,679
Speaker 2: he was the only person I had on my team

1169
01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:35,639
Speaker 2: at that time, and he would say, Third Man doesn't

1170
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:40,240
Speaker 2: do album deals. They just don't. They just do these singles.

1171
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:44,360
Speaker 2: They do legacy artists, they do Neil Young, they do

1172
01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:46,800
Speaker 2: Loretta Lynn. They'll put out something with Willie Nelson, But

1173
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:50,280
Speaker 2: they're not going to put your record out. And I

1174
01:13:50,320 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 2: was like, no, no, no, like they are. I think

1175
01:13:52,080 --> 01:13:57,000
Speaker 2: they're into it. I really think they are. And I

1176
01:13:57,040 --> 01:14:00,360
Speaker 2: mean so it was like we made history. They they

1177
01:14:00,400 --> 01:14:03,960
Speaker 2: had never broken an artist the way that they broke me,

1178
01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:07,960
Speaker 2: and I feel so grateful. I mean it was like

1179
01:14:08,840 --> 01:14:11,960
Speaker 2: even just getting that album on the charts. I'd never

1180
01:14:12,040 --> 01:14:15,000
Speaker 2: had a single that hit the charts, and then the

1181
01:14:15,040 --> 01:14:17,320
Speaker 2: album like made it into the top ten. That was

1182
01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:19,080
Speaker 2: like broke a Billboard record.

1183
01:14:27,040 --> 01:14:30,519
Speaker 1: Okay, but you ultimately switched to Loma Vista, then you

1184
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:33,000
Speaker 1: feel some sort of allegiance what happened there.

1185
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:43,800
Speaker 2: I did switch labels, and I did have I mean,

1186
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:50,479
Speaker 2: I've remained friends with everyone at Third Man, and you know,

1187
01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:53,080
Speaker 2: I tried to put all these clauses in, like Okay,

1188
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:55,519
Speaker 2: well I want them to press my albums, you know,

1189
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:58,160
Speaker 2: like I want them to do the vinyl part of it.

1190
01:14:58,200 --> 01:15:02,519
Speaker 2: I still wanted them to be involved, but ultimately it

1191
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:05,920
Speaker 2: was just I needed a contract. I needed to get

1192
01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:10,040
Speaker 2: back to work. Loma Vista was there. They came in

1193
01:15:10,640 --> 01:15:15,040
Speaker 2: and so yeah, that's that's been where I where I've

1194
01:15:15,080 --> 01:15:18,519
Speaker 2: been at. But I I still, I mean, third Man

1195
01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:23,040
Speaker 2: is like like family there.

1196
01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:27,920
Speaker 1: You know, Okay, did third Man say wait a second, don't.

1197
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:31,280
Speaker 2: Go You know, no one's ever asked me these questions

1198
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:34,400
Speaker 2: point blank. You're making me hard to dance around it.

1199
01:15:35,080 --> 01:15:37,200
Speaker 2: I think, you know, they they maybe they wanted me

1200
01:15:37,240 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 2: to stay. I think they maybe they did, but I

1201
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:46,760
Speaker 2: just needed more bandwidth. They just needed to be able to,

1202
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:52,000
Speaker 2: you know, to continue to grow. And I actually I

1203
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:55,800
Speaker 2: was just in third Man just Friday. My guitar played

1204
01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:57,920
Speaker 2: my new guitar player. He played a show there, and

1205
01:15:57,960 --> 01:16:01,320
Speaker 2: I went in and and hung out with Ben Swank,

1206
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:03,960
Speaker 2: and I just played a festival, and I just watched

1207
01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:06,880
Speaker 2: Jack shred side stage. And you know, every time I

1208
01:16:06,880 --> 01:16:11,439
Speaker 2: see them, we always have a great conversation, and I

1209
01:16:11,479 --> 01:16:15,960
Speaker 2: wouldn't put it out of you know that we would

1210
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:18,960
Speaker 2: work together again in the future. I love them like

1211
01:16:19,080 --> 01:16:20,760
Speaker 2: family and I owe them so much.

1212
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:25,080
Speaker 1: Okay, they ultimately signed the record, which hasn't changed from

1213
01:16:25,120 --> 01:16:28,439
Speaker 1: when you cut it in Memphis. Hudeck has written the

1214
01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:33,920
Speaker 1: article what did they do, if anything, to break you

1215
01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:35,760
Speaker 1: other than put the record out?

1216
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:39,880
Speaker 2: Well, like I said, everybody that worked there was just

1217
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:44,920
Speaker 2: so wildly creative, and they always had great ideas of

1218
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:51,680
Speaker 2: how we could get good exposure, make a splash. There

1219
01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:56,880
Speaker 2: was like a time during Americana Fest week that I

1220
01:16:56,920 --> 01:17:02,760
Speaker 2: was up for a couple awards and didn't end up

1221
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:06,760
Speaker 2: walking home with anything. Not many women did that year.

1222
01:17:06,800 --> 01:17:10,680
Speaker 2: It was a very male dominated year. And then we

1223
01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:12,680
Speaker 2: just decided we were like, you know what, let's do

1224
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:17,639
Speaker 2: a concert on the Third Man rooftop, and we can't.

1225
01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:20,280
Speaker 2: We pulled a Beatles and we went up there and

1226
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:25,120
Speaker 2: did a concert from the roof. And they always had

1227
01:17:25,960 --> 01:17:30,519
Speaker 2: incredible ideas for like gear marketing and going in and

1228
01:17:30,560 --> 01:17:34,240
Speaker 2: you know, like even papering a town with it was

1229
01:17:34,400 --> 01:17:36,639
Speaker 2: just yeah, it was always attention to detail.

1230
01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:40,760
Speaker 1: Okay, those were all very innovative. In some case grassroots.

1231
01:17:41,240 --> 01:17:44,360
Speaker 1: That doesn't drive your record to top ten, So what

1232
01:17:44,560 --> 01:17:47,800
Speaker 1: accounted for we'll call it commercial, But just being on

1233
01:17:47,840 --> 01:17:51,160
Speaker 1: the national radar, having people listen, having radio play it.

1234
01:17:51,240 --> 01:17:52,280
Speaker 1: How did that happen?

1235
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:57,080
Speaker 2: Your guess is as good as mine. I think just

1236
01:17:57,240 --> 01:18:00,760
Speaker 2: having like third Man in my corner, it just gave

1237
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:06,760
Speaker 2: me cool points. And people just wanted us to come

1238
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:10,800
Speaker 2: play their TV shows. I mean we really we the

1239
01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:14,080
Speaker 2: band and I had been working so hard at refining

1240
01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:18,400
Speaker 2: our sounds, making that live show fun to watch and

1241
01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:25,479
Speaker 2: road tight, and we've played this south By Southwest, that

1242
01:18:26,439 --> 01:18:28,880
Speaker 2: south By Southwest season. I guess It would have been

1243
01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:34,160
Speaker 2: March of twenty fifteen or twenty maybe it was twenty sixteen.

1244
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:39,360
Speaker 2: We had Saturday Night live. Bookers came out watched my

1245
01:18:39,479 --> 01:18:42,759
Speaker 2: set at Stubbs, just watched me in the band play

1246
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:46,280
Speaker 2: and they were like, your band is incredible, we want

1247
01:18:46,320 --> 01:18:49,280
Speaker 2: to book you. And so, you know, a lot of

1248
01:18:49,320 --> 01:18:52,000
Speaker 2: it was just having the cool points of Third Man

1249
01:18:53,280 --> 01:18:57,000
Speaker 2: having Jack in my corner, but then a lot of

1250
01:18:57,000 --> 01:19:00,080
Speaker 2: it was just us going out and playing shows and

1251
01:19:00,080 --> 01:19:04,519
Speaker 2: and promoters and bookers seeing it and digging it and

1252
01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:07,040
Speaker 2: wanting to share their stage with us.

1253
01:19:08,600 --> 01:19:10,880
Speaker 1: Okay, so you make a deal with third Man, you

1254
01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:12,920
Speaker 1: have the lawyer of a long standing how do you

1255
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:14,519
Speaker 1: get a manager and an agent?

1256
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:19,640
Speaker 2: Ultimately, Yeah, I had been begging people to manage me,

1257
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:22,799
Speaker 2: and then suddenly it was like they all came running

1258
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:26,360
Speaker 2: at the same time. I went out to a lot

1259
01:19:26,360 --> 01:19:29,639
Speaker 2: of different meetings with a lot of different folks and

1260
01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:34,840
Speaker 2: ended up signing with Jack's management, who they put me

1261
01:19:34,920 --> 01:19:38,720
Speaker 2: up at Chateau Vermont. I had never been in a

1262
01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:44,559
Speaker 2: place so fancy. I also just loved everyone who worked there,

1263
01:19:45,040 --> 01:19:49,840
Speaker 2: and so we Yeah, they just started digging in and

1264
01:19:50,080 --> 01:19:52,679
Speaker 2: it was the first time I'd ever had that kind

1265
01:19:52,680 --> 01:19:57,720
Speaker 2: of like manpower behind me. And Jonathan Vine has been

1266
01:19:57,720 --> 01:19:59,880
Speaker 2: my booking agent. I just love him. I adore him.

1267
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:03,280
Speaker 1: Okay, but who is your manager today?

1268
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:08,880
Speaker 2: My manager today is Kevin Morris, Corncapshaw and Perry Greenfield.

1269
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:11,839
Speaker 1: And how did that end up happening?

1270
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:17,280
Speaker 2: So had I had been with my management for more

1271
01:20:17,320 --> 01:20:21,519
Speaker 2: than a decade and I just really felt that I

1272
01:20:21,560 --> 01:20:25,600
Speaker 2: needed people here in Nashville. You know that, you know,

1273
01:20:25,840 --> 01:20:28,080
Speaker 2: might seem crazy after a decade, but it was like

1274
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:33,479
Speaker 2: I everyone that I had was out in La or

1275
01:20:33,560 --> 01:20:37,040
Speaker 2: New York, and I had when I met everyone there,

1276
01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:42,320
Speaker 2: it was like I was still a kid and I

1277
01:20:42,400 --> 01:20:44,240
Speaker 2: was working with this woman for a very long time.

1278
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:46,280
Speaker 2: She was like my day to day I grew up

1279
01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:49,800
Speaker 2: with I grew up with her, and I wanted to

1280
01:20:49,840 --> 01:20:55,760
Speaker 2: come into this season of hard headed woman. I had

1281
01:20:55,800 --> 01:20:58,360
Speaker 2: a lot of things that, like I said, I had

1282
01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:01,519
Speaker 2: just grown personally and I wanted to be able to

1283
01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:07,760
Speaker 2: come in with this like fresh energy. And it's very

1284
01:21:07,800 --> 01:21:10,840
Speaker 2: hard to do that when you've established a working relationship

1285
01:21:10,880 --> 01:21:12,800
Speaker 2: for ten years and then you know, say I want

1286
01:21:12,840 --> 01:21:15,120
Speaker 2: to change and do things a different way. Well, I've

1287
01:21:15,160 --> 01:21:20,879
Speaker 2: been you know, operating completely different. So I just started

1288
01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:27,320
Speaker 2: fresh and it's been great. I have a new band

1289
01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:31,280
Speaker 2: as well, and it's been so much change for me.

1290
01:21:32,120 --> 01:21:33,840
Speaker 2: I've been working with all the same people.

1291
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:36,880
Speaker 1: Okay, so what is different with the new managers?

1292
01:21:37,680 --> 01:21:45,000
Speaker 2: Just you know, the excitement of this record and the

1293
01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:48,120
Speaker 2: excitement of all the things I have yet to do.

1294
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:53,400
Speaker 2: They share in that excitement, and like I said, having

1295
01:21:53,479 --> 01:21:56,839
Speaker 2: people on ground and like on foot here in Nashville

1296
01:21:56,880 --> 01:21:58,960
Speaker 2: like today to get ready for this podcast, I had

1297
01:21:58,960 --> 01:22:02,400
Speaker 2: someone here come help me set up all the stuff

1298
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:05,400
Speaker 2: that I needed. And before I was like paying a

1299
01:22:05,439 --> 01:22:08,960
Speaker 2: tour manager to come do that, and you know, it

1300
01:22:09,120 --> 01:22:12,160
Speaker 2: just it didn't It just didn't make sense logistically anymore.

1301
01:22:13,080 --> 01:22:16,120
Speaker 1: Okay, what are all these things you want to do?

1302
01:22:18,040 --> 01:22:20,200
Speaker 2: All the things I want to do. I want to

1303
01:22:21,960 --> 01:22:27,719
Speaker 2: continue to write more books. I want to I would

1304
01:22:27,720 --> 01:22:30,280
Speaker 2: like to act. I would like to break into film.

1305
01:22:30,520 --> 01:22:37,080
Speaker 2: I would like to write scores for movies and soundtracks

1306
01:22:37,200 --> 01:22:42,880
Speaker 2: and even write more for other people. You know, I've

1307
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:44,880
Speaker 2: got a lot of songs that I don't cut. I've

1308
01:22:44,880 --> 01:22:47,639
Speaker 2: got a lot of songs that I've written that could

1309
01:22:47,680 --> 01:22:51,320
Speaker 2: be great for other people. So there's just I've done

1310
01:22:51,400 --> 01:22:53,320
Speaker 2: so much in my career that I'm so proud of.

1311
01:22:53,400 --> 01:22:55,639
Speaker 2: But there's still is There's still a lot left.

1312
01:22:55,760 --> 01:22:58,000
Speaker 1: Okay, the game is changed. It was an article the

1313
01:22:58,040 --> 01:23:01,559
Speaker 1: Any Times just yesterday. Is there a movie business when

1314
01:23:01,640 --> 01:23:06,240
Speaker 1: everybody's got a movie studio in their pocket? So that

1315
01:23:06,320 --> 01:23:08,960
Speaker 1: leads to the question, to what degree are you on

1316
01:23:09,040 --> 01:23:12,320
Speaker 1: social media? To what degree are you creating yourself because

1317
01:23:12,320 --> 01:23:13,920
Speaker 1: you have the tools.

1318
01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:20,320
Speaker 2: Historically I have done most of my social media myself

1319
01:23:20,920 --> 01:23:24,439
Speaker 2: because I'm a control freak and I don't want anything

1320
01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:29,720
Speaker 2: to read as ungenuine or you know, I just I

1321
01:23:29,840 --> 01:23:34,519
Speaker 2: like things. I'm very particular. But I've relented in the

1322
01:23:34,560 --> 01:23:38,880
Speaker 2: past few months to other people helping me and doing it.

1323
01:23:38,960 --> 01:23:41,400
Speaker 2: And I need that bandwidth because I want to spend

1324
01:23:41,400 --> 01:23:43,759
Speaker 2: my time writing songs. I want to spend my time,

1325
01:23:44,680 --> 01:23:48,280
Speaker 2: you know, working on on my next book. I don't

1326
01:23:48,280 --> 01:23:52,679
Speaker 2: want to sit and have to do all the editing

1327
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:55,400
Speaker 2: and think about, Okay, this needs to go up this

1328
01:23:55,479 --> 01:23:57,880
Speaker 2: day because you know, tickets are on sale this day,

1329
01:23:57,960 --> 01:24:01,320
Speaker 2: and it just it's It's been really helpful to have

1330
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:06,080
Speaker 2: a whole team of people working behind me, and I

1331
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:10,479
Speaker 2: think I've always been a great leader. Delegating is what

1332
01:24:10,560 --> 01:24:14,240
Speaker 2: I do best. But I can't do everything myself, and

1333
01:24:14,280 --> 01:24:17,519
Speaker 2: for a long time I really was okay.

1334
01:24:17,640 --> 01:24:20,120
Speaker 1: In your book, you talk about being on Saturday Night

1335
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:26,840
Speaker 1: Live and being depressed. It also social media blowback. Talk

1336
01:24:26,880 --> 01:24:29,240
Speaker 1: about that and what's ensued thereafter.

1337
01:24:31,439 --> 01:24:40,320
Speaker 2: Well, absolutely, I think social media is something that people

1338
01:24:40,360 --> 01:24:44,800
Speaker 2: really have to protect their mental health when you're using it,

1339
01:24:44,920 --> 01:24:51,759
Speaker 2: especially young women. And I had a really hard time

1340
01:24:52,080 --> 01:24:55,160
Speaker 2: reading all of the negative comments, especially when so much

1341
01:24:55,200 --> 01:24:59,040
Speaker 2: of it was not about the music, so much of

1342
01:24:59,080 --> 01:25:01,519
Speaker 2: it was based on my life looks, and you know,

1343
01:25:01,640 --> 01:25:05,280
Speaker 2: I'm not a model. I'm a musician I am. I

1344
01:25:05,320 --> 01:25:12,240
Speaker 2: am here to tell stories and sing about my feelings

1345
01:25:12,280 --> 01:25:16,200
Speaker 2: and about the world. And that's what really frustrated me

1346
01:25:16,280 --> 01:25:19,719
Speaker 2: so much about it. I've struggled with my self image,

1347
01:25:19,840 --> 01:25:29,080
Speaker 2: I've struggled with my weight, body positivity, my looks. I recently,

1348
01:25:29,240 --> 01:25:34,160
Speaker 2: just about a year ago, ended up having rhinoplasty, which

1349
01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:37,240
Speaker 2: for years I just said I would not do because

1350
01:25:37,760 --> 01:25:40,120
Speaker 2: again I didn't want anyone to say I was fake

1351
01:25:40,280 --> 01:25:43,479
Speaker 2: or not genuine or you know, but I was having

1352
01:25:44,400 --> 01:25:48,240
Speaker 2: I was struggling with a deviated septum with some breathing issues.

1353
01:25:48,479 --> 01:25:52,439
Speaker 2: Every time I would fly, I would get really bad

1354
01:25:52,520 --> 01:25:54,479
Speaker 2: pain in my ears, and so I went to this

1355
01:25:54,520 --> 01:25:59,360
Speaker 2: ear nose and throat specialist and the surgery was accommodation

1356
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:06,200
Speaker 2: of cause medic and like you know, physical and it's

1357
01:26:06,280 --> 01:26:10,040
Speaker 2: really it's improved my self confidence. But I wanted to

1358
01:26:10,080 --> 01:26:13,439
Speaker 2: be completely transparent about it because I think that it's

1359
01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:18,760
Speaker 2: just impossible for little girls today or just any any

1360
01:26:18,840 --> 01:26:21,599
Speaker 2: human growing up and feeling like we have to fit

1361
01:26:21,640 --> 01:26:23,840
Speaker 2: into this mold. And it's like people just need to

1362
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:25,360
Speaker 2: know that a lot of what they're looking at is

1363
01:26:25,400 --> 01:26:28,599
Speaker 2: not real. People have help, they have makeup artists, they

1364
01:26:28,600 --> 01:26:31,960
Speaker 2: have hairstylists, they have surgeries, they do all these things,

1365
01:26:32,040 --> 01:26:35,760
Speaker 2: and then they're not transparent about it. And I just

1366
01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:39,760
Speaker 2: feel like I wanted to be completely transparent about it.

1367
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:44,080
Speaker 2: I didn't want to I didn't want to just brush

1368
01:26:44,120 --> 01:26:46,000
Speaker 2: it under the rug and not talk about it because

1369
01:26:46,000 --> 01:26:48,400
Speaker 2: it's been something that has impacted me my whole life,

1370
01:26:48,560 --> 01:26:51,240
Speaker 2: and I feel like it's impacted my career, like, oh

1371
01:26:51,280 --> 01:26:54,040
Speaker 2: maybe if I would have, you know, looked a certain

1372
01:26:54,040 --> 01:26:56,599
Speaker 2: way at a certain time, then I would have got farther.

1373
01:26:56,880 --> 01:26:59,479
Speaker 2: And you know, that's unfortunately just the kind of world

1374
01:26:59,479 --> 01:27:04,720
Speaker 2: that we live in, and it is a very like

1375
01:27:04,840 --> 01:27:08,679
Speaker 2: people are just so vapid and worried about looks. And

1376
01:27:09,280 --> 01:27:14,240
Speaker 2: it's really unfortunate, but that's what we focus on many

1377
01:27:14,280 --> 01:27:15,920
Speaker 2: times instead of the art.

1378
01:27:17,560 --> 01:27:21,920
Speaker 1: Many people who have one plastic surgery then go on

1379
01:27:22,080 --> 01:27:25,800
Speaker 1: to have other surgeries. Is are there other things you

1380
01:27:25,920 --> 01:27:28,160
Speaker 1: want to fix or you think you're one and done.

1381
01:27:30,320 --> 01:27:34,759
Speaker 2: Well. I think you can definitely get down a rabbit

1382
01:27:34,800 --> 01:27:39,080
Speaker 2: hole of trying to fix everything. And I definitely struggle with,

1383
01:27:39,200 --> 01:27:47,559
Speaker 2: you know, perfectionism, but I hope that I don't get

1384
01:27:47,600 --> 01:27:51,360
Speaker 2: carried away with that because I mean, I'm a human.

1385
01:27:51,400 --> 01:27:54,760
Speaker 2: I'm going to age's you know. I think women right

1386
01:27:54,760 --> 01:27:57,920
Speaker 2: now are really faced with some difficult decisions because it's

1387
01:27:58,000 --> 01:28:01,760
Speaker 2: like you age naturally. People are going to crucify you

1388
01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:04,640
Speaker 2: for that. You decide to get help and you know,

1389
01:28:05,479 --> 01:28:08,680
Speaker 2: keep propping things up, You're going to get judged for that.

1390
01:28:09,880 --> 01:28:12,639
Speaker 2: And so I don't know. Right now, I feel very content.

1391
01:28:12,720 --> 01:28:15,320
Speaker 2: I don't feel the need to do anything else, But

1392
01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:18,920
Speaker 2: I don't know. I guess we'll just see. We'll just

1393
01:28:18,960 --> 01:28:22,080
Speaker 2: see where my later years take me. I love like

1394
01:28:22,120 --> 01:28:25,080
Speaker 2: looking at people like Joni Mitchell and Patti Smith. I

1395
01:28:25,520 --> 01:28:28,519
Speaker 2: often turn to like Patti Smith when I'm feeling really

1396
01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:33,519
Speaker 2: weak and getting lost and you know, the the Nashville

1397
01:28:33,600 --> 01:28:36,439
Speaker 2: way of just like all the fake eyelashes and the

1398
01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:39,519
Speaker 2: hair teased up to high heavens, and it's like no,

1399
01:28:39,760 --> 01:28:45,000
Speaker 2: you can also you can also choose to to just

1400
01:28:45,080 --> 01:28:49,320
Speaker 2: completely go a different way and just be radically aged.

1401
01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:54,080
Speaker 1: Okay, going back to the social media blowback, I mean,

1402
01:28:54,080 --> 01:28:57,160
Speaker 1: before social media, you had artists say I don't read

1403
01:28:57,240 --> 01:28:59,840
Speaker 1: my reviews. Then there are other people who say I

1404
01:29:00,080 --> 01:29:03,240
Speaker 1: eat them. But you know, you're really not as good

1405
01:29:03,240 --> 01:29:05,679
Speaker 1: as the good ones, not as bad as the bad ones.

1406
01:29:06,920 --> 01:29:09,320
Speaker 1: How do you approach this? And how do you as

1407
01:29:09,360 --> 01:29:11,680
Speaker 1: a woman? Never mind, you don't have to be a

1408
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:15,120
Speaker 1: woman if you have a public stance at all, I

1409
01:29:15,200 --> 01:29:19,160
Speaker 1: can tell you myself, people are attacking your looks. How

1410
01:29:19,160 --> 01:29:22,640
Speaker 1: do you deal with it?

1411
01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:26,599
Speaker 2: It's true, it's very unfortunate that we can all sit

1412
01:29:26,640 --> 01:29:28,960
Speaker 2: behind our little screens and say things we would never

1413
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:36,559
Speaker 2: say to someone's face. I do read reviews, and I

1414
01:29:36,600 --> 01:29:39,679
Speaker 2: do think that there is a place in this world

1415
01:29:39,760 --> 01:29:44,840
Speaker 2: for criticism of art, and I do it myself all

1416
01:29:44,880 --> 01:29:47,360
Speaker 2: the time. I'm very judgy, Like when I don't like something,

1417
01:29:47,400 --> 01:29:49,120
Speaker 2: I know that I don't like it, whether it's a

1418
01:29:49,160 --> 01:29:52,200
Speaker 2: painting or whether it's a song or an album, and

1419
01:29:53,640 --> 01:29:57,280
Speaker 2: I don't get too upset when I get a negative review.

1420
01:29:57,320 --> 01:30:01,000
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, okay, maybe Like and something gets a

1421
01:30:01,000 --> 01:30:03,680
Speaker 2: strong reaction from somebody, like I can't I chalk that

1422
01:30:03,800 --> 01:30:07,519
Speaker 2: up as good. It's like, all right, they didn't dig it,

1423
01:30:07,640 --> 01:30:12,320
Speaker 2: but that's okay. They don't have to. The other thing, though,

1424
01:30:12,400 --> 01:30:15,479
Speaker 2: is just with social media in general, and just putting

1425
01:30:15,560 --> 01:30:17,800
Speaker 2: up anything and then reading the comments that can be

1426
01:30:17,880 --> 01:30:22,479
Speaker 2: underneath it. That can be very scary. And I don't

1427
01:30:22,520 --> 01:30:25,559
Speaker 2: always get in there, and I don't always read every

1428
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:29,280
Speaker 2: single comment because I'll remember the bad one and I

1429
01:30:29,320 --> 01:30:33,439
Speaker 2: won't remember the twenty good ones that people left. But

1430
01:30:33,520 --> 01:30:36,000
Speaker 2: I just, yeah, I just let it roll off my back.

1431
01:30:36,040 --> 01:30:39,000
Speaker 2: I think I've gotten really thick skin since the Saturday

1432
01:30:39,040 --> 01:30:44,759
Speaker 2: Night Live thing. I've gotten a lot tougher. If somebody

1433
01:30:45,040 --> 01:30:48,320
Speaker 2: makes fun of my looks, it's like, okay, well, if

1434
01:30:48,360 --> 01:30:50,000
Speaker 2: that's all you can think of, you don't have very

1435
01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:53,320
Speaker 2: much creativity, and your put downs is like much more

1436
01:30:53,920 --> 01:31:01,040
Speaker 2: insulting to put down, Like I don't know, like John Rich,

1437
01:31:01,200 --> 01:31:03,880
Speaker 2: you know, I can't stand that guy. I'm like, we'll

1438
01:31:03,920 --> 01:31:06,760
Speaker 2: just say, like his his hair plugs or his like

1439
01:31:06,880 --> 01:31:12,200
Speaker 2: fake dyed hair, then actually saying like, no, your music sucks.

1440
01:31:13,280 --> 01:31:16,320
Speaker 2: That's that's what really hurts me. If somebody wants to

1441
01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:19,719
Speaker 2: hurt me, they can say my say my art's not good,

1442
01:31:19,800 --> 01:31:23,360
Speaker 2: or say my poetry is bad. But I'm not gonna

1443
01:31:23,960 --> 01:31:27,960
Speaker 2: be hurt if someone says like, oh, she has no

1444
01:31:28,120 --> 01:31:31,479
Speaker 2: ass or you know, whatever comment they're gonna spew it

1445
01:31:31,560 --> 01:31:33,599
Speaker 2: me okay.

1446
01:31:34,439 --> 01:31:40,479
Speaker 1: John Rich is a very Republican facing guy, very out

1447
01:31:41,720 --> 01:31:45,880
Speaker 1: Nashville is a blue city in a red state. Where

1448
01:31:45,880 --> 01:31:49,040
Speaker 1: are you and what do you feel about the everyday

1449
01:31:49,080 --> 01:31:51,519
Speaker 1: politics of Tennessee and the nation.

1450
01:31:54,840 --> 01:32:03,479
Speaker 2: I think it's heartbreaking to see how divided everybody is,

1451
01:32:04,760 --> 01:32:11,840
Speaker 2: and I think we have At the same time, I

1452
01:32:11,880 --> 01:32:17,320
Speaker 2: think I'm proud to stand up for things that are

1453
01:32:17,360 --> 01:32:22,599
Speaker 2: wrong or injust because we've got to use our voice

1454
01:32:22,600 --> 01:32:25,160
Speaker 2: while we still have it. I mean, we really I

1455
01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:29,080
Speaker 2: do feel that there is a threat to democracy and

1456
01:32:29,240 --> 01:32:35,600
Speaker 2: seeing what's happened to like Stephen Colbert, it's really disheartening.

1457
01:32:35,840 --> 01:32:43,080
Speaker 2: It's unprecedented times we're living in and I know, without

1458
01:32:43,080 --> 01:32:48,040
Speaker 2: a shadow of a doubt that my career could be

1459
01:32:48,120 --> 01:32:53,640
Speaker 2: further whatever that means. If I would have probably kept

1460
01:32:54,360 --> 01:32:57,200
Speaker 2: a lot of my opinions to myself and maybe not

1461
01:32:57,280 --> 01:33:00,600
Speaker 2: shared so many things that are more like role or

1462
01:33:00,640 --> 01:33:05,280
Speaker 2: more like socialist ideals. But yeah, like I said, I

1463
01:33:05,960 --> 01:33:10,599
Speaker 2: think we need that because we've got women's rights are

1464
01:33:10,640 --> 01:33:20,920
Speaker 2: just disappearing right before us Tennessee lawmakers. I don't trust them.

1465
01:33:21,040 --> 01:33:24,840
Speaker 2: They don't have our best interests in mind. They are

1466
01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:28,439
Speaker 2: their pockets are being filled by the NRA. So of

1467
01:33:28,479 --> 01:33:33,320
Speaker 2: course when there's a shooting right where my children, right

1468
01:33:33,360 --> 01:33:35,479
Speaker 2: near where my children go to school, I'm going to

1469
01:33:35,560 --> 01:33:39,519
Speaker 2: show up and I'm going to protest because we need

1470
01:33:40,040 --> 01:33:46,680
Speaker 2: more gun laws. You know, I just couldn't sleep at

1471
01:33:46,760 --> 01:33:51,240
Speaker 2: night if I didn't use my platform in a way

1472
01:33:51,400 --> 01:33:57,320
Speaker 2: that I think is meaningful. And I mean my songs too.

1473
01:33:57,320 --> 01:34:05,760
Speaker 2: I hope that they reflect love and positivity and just

1474
01:34:06,439 --> 01:34:10,120
Speaker 2: make people think and open their minds, because we're really

1475
01:34:10,560 --> 01:34:13,640
Speaker 2: getting to a dangerous place in our country where no

1476
01:34:13,640 --> 01:34:16,439
Speaker 2: one can sit down and have a conversation. So it's like,

1477
01:34:16,479 --> 01:34:19,400
Speaker 2: I'm not angry at anybody who's on the right. Honestly,

1478
01:34:19,479 --> 01:34:22,519
Speaker 2: I think that I've gotten rid of a lot of

1479
01:34:22,520 --> 01:34:26,559
Speaker 2: my anger and how frustrated I used to be. I'm

1480
01:34:26,560 --> 01:34:30,120
Speaker 2: more interested in talking with people and wanting to see

1481
01:34:30,120 --> 01:34:32,479
Speaker 2: how they came to those conclusions, so maybe we can

1482
01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:36,000
Speaker 2: move beyond that, get somewhere else.

1483
01:34:36,960 --> 01:34:41,200
Speaker 1: Did you grow up in a liberal family? Were they conservative?

1484
01:34:41,240 --> 01:34:43,160
Speaker 1: And you've made these leash you're own.

1485
01:34:45,240 --> 01:34:49,240
Speaker 2: I grew up in a completely divided household, half liberal,

1486
01:34:49,280 --> 01:34:55,000
Speaker 2: half conservative, and yeah, and one side of my family

1487
01:34:55,120 --> 01:34:57,760
Speaker 2: was more red and one side of my family it

1488
01:34:57,760 --> 01:34:58,439
Speaker 2: was more so.

1489
01:34:58,479 --> 01:34:59,520
Speaker 1: What was Thanksgiving?

1490
01:34:59,680 --> 01:35:04,880
Speaker 2: Like? It was interesting? It was and it's and it

1491
01:35:05,000 --> 01:35:10,320
Speaker 2: still is and you know, but it's like I'm seeing

1492
01:35:10,360 --> 01:35:14,559
Speaker 2: a Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks, like they're coming together.

1493
01:35:14,760 --> 01:35:18,160
Speaker 2: So like maybe if they can come together, maybe Republicans

1494
01:35:18,200 --> 01:35:21,760
Speaker 2: and Democrats are all gonna come to Maybe there's hope

1495
01:35:21,760 --> 01:35:24,760
Speaker 2: for us still if they're burying the hatchet. I don't know.

1496
01:35:25,000 --> 01:35:34,240
Speaker 2: I think I I have no regrets for anything I've

1497
01:35:34,720 --> 01:35:40,240
Speaker 2: I've said or done. I just hope that, yeah, that

1498
01:35:40,320 --> 01:35:44,200
Speaker 2: America can can move ahead. It feels it feels like

1499
01:35:44,240 --> 01:35:47,280
Speaker 2: we're at some kind of like breaking point and it's

1500
01:35:48,240 --> 01:35:50,599
Speaker 2: it's hard time to even put out music because God,

1501
01:35:50,720 --> 01:35:51,719
Speaker 2: the world's fallen apart.

1502
01:35:57,960 --> 01:36:04,559
Speaker 1: Okay, you talk about books. You had a book come

1503
01:36:04,600 --> 01:36:06,920
Speaker 1: out in twenty twenty two. I've been quoting a lot

1504
01:36:06,920 --> 01:36:09,920
Speaker 1: of stuff from it. Maybe we'll make it. How did

1505
01:36:09,960 --> 01:36:10,680
Speaker 1: that come to be?

1506
01:36:13,680 --> 01:36:17,360
Speaker 2: I am an avid reader. It's been a huge part

1507
01:36:17,479 --> 01:36:24,440
Speaker 2: of my songwriting, and I've I've always loved reading like memoirs,

1508
01:36:24,479 --> 01:36:27,280
Speaker 2: and anytime I get into an artist, I go see

1509
01:36:27,320 --> 01:36:30,000
Speaker 2: if you know, either they've written something or somebody's written

1510
01:36:30,040 --> 01:36:36,360
Speaker 2: something about them. And really I kind of began writing

1511
01:36:36,360 --> 01:36:44,160
Speaker 2: the book when I found myself pregnant in twenty eighteen,

1512
01:36:45,760 --> 01:36:48,400
Speaker 2: and it's like my career had just taken off. I'd

1513
01:36:48,400 --> 01:36:51,800
Speaker 2: just gotten nominated for you know, Best New Artists at

1514
01:36:51,800 --> 01:36:54,280
Speaker 2: the Grammys, and then hear I'm like, oh, I'm pregnant.

1515
01:36:54,720 --> 01:36:58,479
Speaker 2: It really couldn't be worse timing, but it was. Writing

1516
01:36:58,479 --> 01:37:00,960
Speaker 2: that book was just something to keep myself busy, and

1517
01:37:02,040 --> 01:37:07,679
Speaker 2: also just a way to remember where I came from,

1518
01:37:07,720 --> 01:37:11,679
Speaker 2: to remember all those little nuanced things about those early years.

1519
01:37:12,680 --> 01:37:16,840
Speaker 2: And you know, it was definitely inspired by reading just

1520
01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:20,559
Speaker 2: Kids like one too many times and thinking like, Okay,

1521
01:37:20,560 --> 01:37:22,000
Speaker 2: that's the kind of book I want to write. I

1522
01:37:22,000 --> 01:37:25,000
Speaker 2: want to write about that ten years that we were struggling.

1523
01:37:25,040 --> 01:37:27,960
Speaker 2: And even now I've started writing down the next ten

1524
01:37:28,080 --> 01:37:32,560
Speaker 2: years because it's just so easy to forget things if

1525
01:37:32,600 --> 01:37:34,120
Speaker 2: you don't write it down.

1526
01:37:34,600 --> 01:37:37,240
Speaker 1: What came first, the book or the book deal?

1527
01:37:38,840 --> 01:37:42,080
Speaker 2: The book? Yeah, I was writing the book every single day.

1528
01:37:42,200 --> 01:37:44,080
Speaker 2: I would go sit down, write this book. And then

1529
01:37:44,080 --> 01:37:47,280
Speaker 2: I got on Twitter and I wrote, I'm writing a book.

1530
01:37:47,360 --> 01:37:51,680
Speaker 2: And my friend Jessica Hopper, she worked at University of

1531
01:37:51,680 --> 01:37:54,519
Speaker 2: Texas Press or she knew somebody who worked there, and

1532
01:37:54,560 --> 01:37:56,760
Speaker 2: they said, hey, can we read the manuscript? And I

1533
01:37:56,800 --> 01:37:59,960
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, sure, so they read it. They immediately

1534
01:38:00,000 --> 01:38:05,120
Speaker 2: gave me a book deal, and I've loved getting the

1535
01:38:05,160 --> 01:38:07,920
Speaker 2: book out there. I should have, in hindsight, I should

1536
01:38:07,960 --> 01:38:10,759
Speaker 2: have sent the manuscript around to a few different people

1537
01:38:10,840 --> 01:38:15,880
Speaker 2: and got some other options. But they're a you know,

1538
01:38:15,920 --> 01:38:21,640
Speaker 2: they're a nonprofit. They're an indie book dealer. And we

1539
01:38:21,640 --> 01:38:23,400
Speaker 2: were so close to making it on the New York

1540
01:38:23,400 --> 01:38:25,880
Speaker 2: Times bestseller list that first week. I don't know what.

1541
01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:28,080
Speaker 2: I don't know how he didn't. That's a very mysterious

1542
01:38:28,120 --> 01:38:34,320
Speaker 2: list to get on. But very happy with just getting

1543
01:38:34,320 --> 01:38:37,479
Speaker 2: that book out. It felt freeing for me in a

1544
01:38:37,479 --> 01:38:38,320
Speaker 2: lot of ways.

1545
01:38:39,200 --> 01:38:42,920
Speaker 1: Okay, book business, I'll just put it this way, is

1546
01:38:42,920 --> 01:38:46,439
Speaker 1: the amateur hour compared to the music business in terms

1547
01:38:46,439 --> 01:38:48,479
Speaker 1: of publicity all kinds of things. So what was your

1548
01:38:48,520 --> 01:38:50,120
Speaker 1: experience of putting out a book.

1549
01:38:52,800 --> 01:38:55,799
Speaker 2: It was great. We did a tour. We went around

1550
01:38:55,880 --> 01:39:02,479
Speaker 2: to small bookstores all across the country. I like I said,

1551
01:39:02,520 --> 01:39:04,840
Speaker 2: I had really high hopes of being on that New

1552
01:39:04,920 --> 01:39:08,800
Speaker 2: York Times bestseller list. That was like one of my

1553
01:39:08,840 --> 01:39:11,439
Speaker 2: bucket list things I wanted. It was. I got a

1554
01:39:11,479 --> 01:39:16,040
Speaker 2: little depressed posts not making the New York Times bestseller list,

1555
01:39:16,080 --> 01:39:18,439
Speaker 2: but look, that still gives me something to strive for.

1556
01:39:19,880 --> 01:39:21,800
Speaker 2: At the time, everybody said, like, why are you writing

1557
01:39:21,800 --> 01:39:25,360
Speaker 2: a book? You're way too young, Like I don't understand

1558
01:39:25,360 --> 01:39:29,240
Speaker 2: why you're writing a book in your forties, But I

1559
01:39:29,280 --> 01:39:33,400
Speaker 2: don't know. It was just it encapsulates that time period,

1560
01:39:34,120 --> 01:39:39,120
Speaker 2: and I processed so much, Like at the beginning of

1561
01:39:39,120 --> 01:39:41,800
Speaker 2: starting writing the book, I was still drinking and it

1562
01:39:41,840 --> 01:39:44,000
Speaker 2: was COVID, and then I went through COVID and I

1563
01:39:44,040 --> 01:39:47,000
Speaker 2: was like trying to finish this book while having a

1564
01:39:47,040 --> 01:39:52,040
Speaker 2: young child at home and drinking too much. And like,

1565
01:39:52,360 --> 01:39:55,120
Speaker 2: through the writing of the book, I kind of realized, like,

1566
01:39:55,680 --> 01:40:01,040
Speaker 2: damn this, my drinking is a problem, and it's insane

1567
01:40:01,080 --> 01:40:03,080
Speaker 2: that I would have to read it back to myself

1568
01:40:03,160 --> 01:40:06,880
Speaker 2: to know that, because shit, I mean I hit my

1569
01:40:06,880 --> 01:40:09,479
Speaker 2: car into a telephone pole tried to outrun two cops.

1570
01:40:09,520 --> 01:40:12,120
Speaker 2: I like I said, my husband and I were having

1571
01:40:12,160 --> 01:40:16,639
Speaker 2: all sorts of troubles. There was nothing good that drinking

1572
01:40:16,760 --> 01:40:19,840
Speaker 2: was bringing into my life. But until I kind of

1573
01:40:19,840 --> 01:40:21,519
Speaker 2: read it back and I had a published I had

1574
01:40:21,520 --> 01:40:26,439
Speaker 2: an editor, and I remember she read it and she said, Wow,

1575
01:40:26,479 --> 01:40:29,880
Speaker 2: it's like whiskey is like a character in your book.

1576
01:40:30,520 --> 01:40:32,679
Speaker 2: And there was just really no ending to it either.

1577
01:40:32,840 --> 01:40:35,200
Speaker 2: And so once I kind of decided that I was

1578
01:40:35,240 --> 01:40:37,240
Speaker 2: going to quit drinking, then it was like, okay, well

1579
01:40:37,240 --> 01:40:40,080
Speaker 2: there's the ending of the book. It's like, I'm not

1580
01:40:40,120 --> 01:40:41,439
Speaker 2: going to live like this anymore.

1581
01:40:43,200 --> 01:40:47,599
Speaker 1: Okay, a couple of things. What did you leave out

1582
01:40:47,640 --> 01:40:48,120
Speaker 1: of the book?

1583
01:40:49,560 --> 01:40:55,360
Speaker 2: Oh? Well, I can't tell you. Dolly says, you always

1584
01:40:55,360 --> 01:40:56,839
Speaker 2: got to save something for yourself.

1585
01:40:57,000 --> 01:41:00,679
Speaker 1: Well, let me put the question a different way. Did

1586
01:41:00,720 --> 01:41:03,519
Speaker 1: you leave things out of the book either because they

1587
01:41:03,560 --> 01:41:05,960
Speaker 1: were too raw and you didn't want to reveal them,

1588
01:41:06,360 --> 01:41:08,799
Speaker 1: or you didn't potentially want to hurt third parties.

1589
01:41:10,600 --> 01:41:15,800
Speaker 2: It was a combination of both. I have people in

1590
01:41:15,840 --> 01:41:20,479
Speaker 2: my life that are still alive and that mean very

1591
01:41:20,600 --> 01:41:24,599
Speaker 2: much to me, but I couldn't go into a lot

1592
01:41:24,640 --> 01:41:27,599
Speaker 2: of my family dynamics. There was a lot there that

1593
01:41:28,640 --> 01:41:33,320
Speaker 2: just needed to stay protected, to protect my family, not

1594
01:41:33,439 --> 01:41:39,599
Speaker 2: my children, but my you know, my extended family. And

1595
01:41:39,600 --> 01:41:43,120
Speaker 2: and then yeah, there was other things that I've kind

1596
01:41:43,120 --> 01:41:50,759
Speaker 2: of found out about myself, about my personality with things

1597
01:41:50,760 --> 01:41:55,240
Speaker 2: that I've that I've struggled with over the years, and

1598
01:41:55,240 --> 01:41:58,680
Speaker 2: and you know, things with with the drinking, with the

1599
01:41:58,720 --> 01:42:03,479
Speaker 2: eating disorder, with just so many different things that all

1600
01:42:03,560 --> 01:42:06,640
Speaker 2: kind of came to light through my therapy. But a

1601
01:42:06,720 --> 01:42:09,680
Speaker 2: lot of it I haven't really went into because I'm

1602
01:42:09,720 --> 01:42:13,120
Speaker 2: still like processing it personally myself.

1603
01:42:14,640 --> 01:42:16,320
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're sober now.

1604
01:42:18,200 --> 01:42:26,720
Speaker 2: So alcohol free. I still partake in psychedelics and cannabis.

1605
01:42:27,000 --> 01:42:29,439
Speaker 1: Okay, how did you stop drinking?

1606
01:42:32,240 --> 01:42:41,800
Speaker 2: I have to credit literature and psilocybin, and really I

1607
01:42:41,880 --> 01:42:47,799
Speaker 2: started reading about how Bill Wilson, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, began.

1608
01:42:49,280 --> 01:42:53,040
Speaker 2: He actually had a psychedelic experience from the plant belladonna.

1609
01:42:53,520 --> 01:42:57,439
Speaker 2: That's how he gave up his drinking. It wasn't religion.

1610
01:42:58,600 --> 01:43:01,080
Speaker 2: Some people came in later that that became part of

1611
01:43:01,120 --> 01:43:03,040
Speaker 2: it was the religion. But he was in those early

1612
01:43:03,120 --> 01:43:05,240
Speaker 2: days of AA when he was curing people. He was

1613
01:43:05,240 --> 01:43:08,840
Speaker 2: giving everybody acid and I thought, well, that's interesting. I've

1614
01:43:08,880 --> 01:43:13,720
Speaker 2: had some really transformative, you know, mushroom trips prior. So

1615
01:43:13,800 --> 01:43:17,240
Speaker 2: I took a mushroom journey on my own and I

1616
01:43:17,360 --> 01:43:19,599
Speaker 2: really thought about my drinking, and I thought about all

1617
01:43:19,680 --> 01:43:22,439
Speaker 2: of the things that have been holding me back with it.

1618
01:43:22,479 --> 01:43:25,719
Speaker 2: There's been so many years I wanted to quit, and

1619
01:43:26,160 --> 01:43:34,080
Speaker 2: that mushroom experience, coupled with about three or four different books,

1620
01:43:34,800 --> 01:43:38,720
Speaker 2: removed my want. It was I'm not using any willpower,

1621
01:43:38,920 --> 01:43:41,479
Speaker 2: I just simply don't want to do it anymore. And

1622
01:43:41,520 --> 01:43:44,840
Speaker 2: it was this book by Holly Whittaker that was called

1623
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:48,720
Speaker 2: Quit Like a Woman, the rebellious decision to give up

1624
01:43:48,760 --> 01:43:53,000
Speaker 2: alcohol and a culture obsessed with drinking. The other one

1625
01:43:53,240 --> 01:43:57,719
Speaker 2: was Alan Carr The Easy Way, and then Anni Grace

1626
01:43:57,760 --> 01:44:01,280
Speaker 2: This Naked Mind. And I read those books and I

1627
01:44:01,320 --> 01:44:04,439
Speaker 2: have I just lost my desire to drink.

1628
01:44:04,520 --> 01:44:08,400
Speaker 1: It's okay, but in addition to the drinking, drinking is

1629
01:44:08,400 --> 01:44:14,200
Speaker 1: a lifestyle, going to the bar, hanging out, backstage, a

1630
01:44:14,320 --> 01:44:16,840
Speaker 1: million places where people are drinking. So how do you

1631
01:44:16,920 --> 01:44:19,400
Speaker 1: cope with that? Or you know you're over the hump

1632
01:44:19,520 --> 01:44:21,360
Speaker 1: maybe now if you ever get over the hump, But

1633
01:44:21,400 --> 01:44:22,360
Speaker 1: how do you deal with that?

1634
01:44:24,240 --> 01:44:28,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it is, it's so wrapped up, especially

1635
01:44:28,520 --> 01:44:31,320
Speaker 2: when you're a musician. It's just it's there all the time.

1636
01:44:31,439 --> 01:44:34,840
Speaker 2: People think that you run off it, like it's our

1637
01:44:34,880 --> 01:44:40,840
Speaker 2: gasoline or something. And I still go out to bars.

1638
01:44:41,160 --> 01:44:47,240
Speaker 2: I still I love to go out and socialize. I

1639
01:44:47,280 --> 01:44:52,400
Speaker 2: love to get behind the bar and bartend. Still, I,

1640
01:44:52,479 --> 01:44:54,680
Speaker 2: like I said, it's just this weird. It's almost like

1641
01:44:55,760 --> 01:44:58,400
Speaker 2: you know, Steve Jobs like whatever, like wearing the same

1642
01:44:58,479 --> 01:45:01,720
Speaker 2: thing every day, where it's like I just get up

1643
01:45:01,760 --> 01:45:04,240
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I'm not I don't have to moderate

1644
01:45:04,320 --> 01:45:06,479
Speaker 2: because I never moderated good. It would always be like, oh,

1645
01:45:06,479 --> 01:45:08,240
Speaker 2: I'm just going to have two, and then two would

1646
01:45:08,240 --> 01:45:12,040
Speaker 2: be two thousand and I once I just decided, oh

1647
01:45:12,080 --> 01:45:14,040
Speaker 2: I'm not going to have it. It's of course, it

1648
01:45:14,080 --> 01:45:17,479
Speaker 2: was like awkward for a while, and I didn't tell anyone.

1649
01:45:17,640 --> 01:45:20,200
Speaker 2: I always had an Na beer or like a Rocks

1650
01:45:20,200 --> 01:45:24,479
Speaker 2: glass that looked like a tequila drink. But yeah, once

1651
01:45:24,560 --> 01:45:27,479
Speaker 2: I once I just decided like, oh, I'm not going

1652
01:45:27,520 --> 01:45:30,960
Speaker 2: to drink like just I don't even think about it.

1653
01:45:30,960 --> 01:45:36,200
Speaker 2: And my husband still drinks, and people on tours still drink,

1654
01:45:36,360 --> 01:45:39,400
Speaker 2: and my fam my family members all still drink. I mean,

1655
01:45:39,439 --> 01:45:43,400
Speaker 2: my best friend is like a wine connoisseur, and like

1656
01:45:44,280 --> 01:45:46,800
Speaker 2: I just have something different in my cup. But I'm

1657
01:45:46,840 --> 01:45:50,200
Speaker 2: still there, like having the conversation. And I think in

1658
01:45:50,240 --> 01:45:52,639
Speaker 2: the past it would be like I would hide myself

1659
01:45:52,680 --> 01:45:56,000
Speaker 2: away and I would not go out, but now it's

1660
01:45:56,040 --> 01:45:58,360
Speaker 2: like the opposite. I'm like, okay, I still need to socialize,

1661
01:45:58,400 --> 01:45:59,559
Speaker 2: like that's very important for me.

1662
01:46:00,800 --> 01:46:03,479
Speaker 1: What about cigarettes, which are another feature of the book.

1663
01:46:05,280 --> 01:46:08,840
Speaker 2: I've given up the SIGs too, and I didn't think

1664
01:46:08,920 --> 01:46:10,559
Speaker 2: I was going to be able to do that, but

1665
01:46:12,479 --> 01:46:14,680
Speaker 2: I held on to him for a while because it

1666
01:46:14,720 --> 01:46:17,360
Speaker 2: felt good to just smoke while everybody else was getting drunk.

1667
01:46:18,400 --> 01:46:22,679
Speaker 2: But yeah, now it's like they ah, they just they

1668
01:46:22,720 --> 01:46:25,479
Speaker 2: make me sick when I smell them. And and again,

1669
01:46:25,560 --> 01:46:27,720
Speaker 2: my husband still smoke cigarettes, and I'm like trying to

1670
01:46:27,720 --> 01:46:29,880
Speaker 2: get him on the same train as me, but we're

1671
01:46:29,880 --> 01:46:33,280
Speaker 2: on our different paths. He's doing his thing, I'm doing mine.

1672
01:46:33,520 --> 01:46:36,680
Speaker 2: And the smoking and the drinking, it was like it

1673
01:46:36,720 --> 01:46:39,880
Speaker 2: was just hell on my voice, you know. And even

1674
01:46:39,880 --> 01:46:42,360
Speaker 2: this the weeds smoking, like I have to be careful.

1675
01:46:42,360 --> 01:46:45,960
Speaker 2: I like use a vaporizer or every now and then

1676
01:46:45,960 --> 01:46:48,320
Speaker 2: I'll do a joint with a group of people. But

1677
01:46:48,479 --> 01:46:50,960
Speaker 2: like if I'm on tour, like I am never getting

1678
01:46:51,040 --> 01:46:54,599
Speaker 2: high before I sing, I never get stone and get

1679
01:46:54,640 --> 01:46:58,960
Speaker 2: on stage ever ever, ever, I just and I used

1680
01:46:59,000 --> 01:47:01,559
Speaker 2: to do like you do a show a tequila to

1681
01:47:01,640 --> 01:47:04,439
Speaker 2: get up, you know, get on stage. And now it's

1682
01:47:04,439 --> 01:47:08,479
Speaker 2: like we get together and we we pray together in

1683
01:47:08,520 --> 01:47:10,759
Speaker 2: a circle. It's insane.

1684
01:47:10,840 --> 01:47:14,160
Speaker 1: Wait wait wait wait wait wait you pray together? Are

1685
01:47:14,240 --> 01:47:15,000
Speaker 1: you a believer?

1686
01:47:17,680 --> 01:47:23,760
Speaker 2: I am not religious, like you know, I don't. I

1687
01:47:23,800 --> 01:47:27,400
Speaker 2: don't follow the Bible. I don't follow that kind of strict,

1688
01:47:27,720 --> 01:47:33,560
Speaker 2: rigid thing. But I definitely believe in in uh in afterlife.

1689
01:47:33,640 --> 01:47:36,400
Speaker 2: I think, I think, I definitely believe in reincarnation. I

1690
01:47:36,400 --> 01:47:38,479
Speaker 2: don't know if I'm more of a Buddhist than a Christian,

1691
01:47:38,680 --> 01:47:44,679
Speaker 2: but I yeah, I believe. I believe in something for sure.

1692
01:47:44,880 --> 01:47:48,320
Speaker 2: I've had too many like close encounters with ghosts and

1693
01:47:48,880 --> 01:47:51,559
Speaker 2: weird spooky things in my life to not I have

1694
01:47:51,600 --> 01:47:55,120
Speaker 2: a lot of a sleep paralysis and sleep apnea and

1695
01:47:55,160 --> 01:47:59,479
Speaker 2: stuff too, and weird. I've been visited by weird things

1696
01:47:59,479 --> 01:48:04,400
Speaker 2: in my dream. I definitely believe in in ghosts and spirits,

1697
01:48:04,479 --> 01:48:07,280
Speaker 2: and but I think it's you know, you get on

1698
01:48:07,360 --> 01:48:10,080
Speaker 2: stage and it's good to just take a moment, get everybody,

1699
01:48:10,080 --> 01:48:14,200
Speaker 2: get all close and be together and calm your nerves.

1700
01:48:14,280 --> 01:48:16,360
Speaker 2: And you never know when it's going to be the

1701
01:48:16,439 --> 01:48:20,799
Speaker 2: last time you step on stage together. And I think,

1702
01:48:20,960 --> 01:48:24,920
Speaker 2: you know, with my with my last band, like I

1703
01:48:24,960 --> 01:48:26,400
Speaker 2: didn't know that was going to be the last time

1704
01:48:26,439 --> 01:48:28,479
Speaker 2: that we were all playing together. Either. We had a

1705
01:48:28,479 --> 01:48:33,360
Speaker 2: really long break after that and then everything deteriorated and

1706
01:48:33,360 --> 01:48:36,880
Speaker 2: and so yeah, I think it's good to put your

1707
01:48:36,880 --> 01:48:38,920
Speaker 2: heads together. You never know what can happen while you're

1708
01:48:39,000 --> 01:48:39,320
Speaker 2: up there.

1709
01:48:39,640 --> 01:48:42,520
Speaker 1: So you mentioned sleep app need to use the seatpat machine.

1710
01:48:44,200 --> 01:48:48,840
Speaker 2: No, I don't, but I My breathing's gotten a lot

1711
01:48:48,880 --> 01:48:53,440
Speaker 2: better post seeing doctor Nasiri, who is this vocal specialist.

1712
01:48:54,760 --> 01:48:57,720
Speaker 2: But yeah, the sleep paralysis has been something that I've

1713
01:48:57,760 --> 01:49:02,479
Speaker 2: been that's happened my whole life, where I will be

1714
01:49:02,520 --> 01:49:06,960
Speaker 2: sleeping and get completely frozen. And I've read a lot

1715
01:49:07,000 --> 01:49:11,800
Speaker 2: about Also, I have this rare blood type it's called

1716
01:49:11,840 --> 01:49:15,519
Speaker 2: a RH negative and most of it like originates from

1717
01:49:15,520 --> 01:49:18,559
Speaker 2: the Basque country, and there's people that have the blood

1718
01:49:18,880 --> 01:49:21,880
Speaker 2: all have these similarities. And actually the red Lynn had

1719
01:49:21,880 --> 01:49:25,200
Speaker 2: this same blood type as well. But there's like a

1720
01:49:25,280 --> 01:49:27,800
Speaker 2: through line and you can look up conspiracy theories on

1721
01:49:27,840 --> 01:49:31,880
Speaker 2: the internet about alien abductions and this blood type and

1722
01:49:31,960 --> 01:49:36,519
Speaker 2: sleep apnea. It's all tied in there, which is very strange.

1723
01:49:36,520 --> 01:49:38,439
Speaker 2: But I'm trying to write about it in a book

1724
01:49:38,520 --> 01:49:41,040
Speaker 2: that is my second book I've been working on. It's

1725
01:49:41,080 --> 01:49:44,960
Speaker 2: called Close Encounters in Country Music and Beyond, and it's

1726
01:49:45,000 --> 01:49:47,639
Speaker 2: about just people that I've been lucky enough to meet

1727
01:49:47,680 --> 01:49:52,439
Speaker 2: and hang with, Joan Bias, you know, Willie Nelson, Red Olinn,

1728
01:49:53,479 --> 01:49:57,840
Speaker 2: but also ties in other worldly experiences.

1729
01:49:58,560 --> 01:50:00,400
Speaker 1: Okay, you talk a lot about mush rooms. Have you

1730
01:50:00,479 --> 01:50:01,440
Speaker 1: done ayahuasca?

1731
01:50:02,960 --> 01:50:08,639
Speaker 2: I have not. I have not. I have done pretty

1732
01:50:08,720 --> 01:50:14,200
Speaker 2: much every other psychedel I've done DMT, I've done acids,

1733
01:50:14,479 --> 01:50:19,439
Speaker 2: I've done, of course, like I said, mushrooms, but I

1734
01:50:19,439 --> 01:50:21,600
Speaker 2: have never done ayahuasca. Now I don't know if I

1735
01:50:21,600 --> 01:50:22,680
Speaker 2: want to throw up like that.

1736
01:50:23,920 --> 01:50:26,960
Speaker 1: Okay, you have a big decision to make. Will you

1737
01:50:27,040 --> 01:50:30,040
Speaker 1: do mushrooms? Try to come to an idea of what

1738
01:50:30,080 --> 01:50:30,559
Speaker 1: you should do.

1739
01:50:32,840 --> 01:50:37,439
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. I hadn't taken a big dose in a

1740
01:50:37,520 --> 01:50:41,240
Speaker 2: very long time, and just a few weeks ago I

1741
01:50:41,320 --> 01:50:45,680
Speaker 2: was feeling really stuck with a lot of things personally professionally,

1742
01:50:46,800 --> 01:50:50,880
Speaker 2: and my kids went to the grandparents for the evening,

1743
01:50:50,920 --> 01:50:52,439
Speaker 2: and my husband went out to the bar and I

1744
01:50:52,479 --> 01:50:55,200
Speaker 2: sat outside and I ate a whole bunch of mushrooms

1745
01:50:55,240 --> 01:51:00,160
Speaker 2: and just put on some records. And I like to

1746
01:51:00,160 --> 01:51:04,040
Speaker 2: listen to the Timothy Leary Guided Trip on YouTube as well.

1747
01:51:04,840 --> 01:51:06,479
Speaker 2: And I always feel like I come out of it

1748
01:51:06,560 --> 01:51:12,120
Speaker 2: with yeah, just with insight. And I think it's so

1749
01:51:12,240 --> 01:51:14,360
Speaker 2: easy for our brains just to get stuck in the

1750
01:51:14,400 --> 01:51:17,800
Speaker 2: same way of thinking. And it's so interesting to me

1751
01:51:17,960 --> 01:51:22,960
Speaker 2: that mushrooms create new neural pathways. You know, alcohol shuts

1752
01:51:22,960 --> 01:51:25,719
Speaker 2: it all off, It just blunts it. But I'm trying

1753
01:51:25,760 --> 01:51:28,080
Speaker 2: to open things up here after years of trying to

1754
01:51:28,080 --> 01:51:28,840
Speaker 2: shut it all off.

1755
01:51:29,479 --> 01:51:32,959
Speaker 1: Okay. Also, in your book, how about you encounter your husband?

1756
01:51:33,560 --> 01:51:36,320
Speaker 1: You just see him and you go, he's the one.

1757
01:51:37,360 --> 01:51:39,559
Speaker 1: What was it about him? It's not like you were

1758
01:51:39,560 --> 01:51:42,519
Speaker 1: in experienced you you know, it's not like you were

1759
01:51:42,520 --> 01:51:45,400
Speaker 1: wet behind the years you've been around, and you just

1760
01:51:45,439 --> 01:51:47,200
Speaker 1: see him in a party, go he's the one.

1761
01:51:49,360 --> 01:51:51,479
Speaker 2: I have no idea what drew me to him, but

1762
01:51:52,160 --> 01:51:55,320
Speaker 2: I think it was he was playing bass, and I

1763
01:51:55,320 --> 01:51:57,719
Speaker 2: feel like bass players have always been the most statable.

1764
01:52:00,520 --> 01:52:04,000
Speaker 2: He was he looked like the saddest guy at the

1765
01:52:04,040 --> 01:52:08,519
Speaker 2: party that was there, and I don't know, I just

1766
01:52:08,560 --> 01:52:12,840
Speaker 2: immediately felt drawn to him. I I don't know what

1767
01:52:12,880 --> 01:52:15,759
Speaker 2: it is. And later he started playing me some songs

1768
01:52:15,960 --> 01:52:19,320
Speaker 2: and I loved the songs that he had written. But

1769
01:52:20,320 --> 01:52:22,599
Speaker 2: it's just it was the strangest thing. I never said

1770
01:52:22,640 --> 01:52:25,720
Speaker 2: stuff like that. I never I never dreamed that I

1771
01:52:25,760 --> 01:52:27,880
Speaker 2: would meet the person I was going to stay with

1772
01:52:28,040 --> 01:52:31,000
Speaker 2: at twenty and here and here I am forty two.

1773
01:52:31,040 --> 01:52:34,320
Speaker 2: We've been together for that long. But it was just

1774
01:52:34,360 --> 01:52:36,639
Speaker 2: something just drew me towards him.

1775
01:52:37,280 --> 01:52:39,280
Speaker 1: And why are bass players the most datable?

1776
01:52:41,680 --> 01:52:46,320
Speaker 2: You know, Guitar players are so full of themselves, singers

1777
01:52:46,400 --> 01:52:51,840
Speaker 2: lead singers, like, we're not datable, Definitely not drummers. I

1778
01:52:51,840 --> 01:52:54,400
Speaker 2: don't know. Bass players, they're just like they're they're so

1779
01:52:54,560 --> 01:52:57,679
Speaker 2: quietly important. And that's like, it's kind of the role

1780
01:52:57,720 --> 01:53:01,719
Speaker 2: that Jeremy has like played in my career. He even

1781
01:53:01,800 --> 01:53:05,960
Speaker 2: still he's one of the most prolific writers. He's had

1782
01:53:06,160 --> 01:53:08,360
Speaker 2: a career in his own right too. He put out

1783
01:53:08,360 --> 01:53:11,720
Speaker 2: three albums on Anti Records and went and opened a

1784
01:53:11,760 --> 01:53:15,480
Speaker 2: bunch of shows for Mike Campbell kind of before the pandemic.

1785
01:53:15,560 --> 01:53:19,920
Speaker 2: But he's been there to put the work into my

1786
01:53:20,040 --> 01:53:22,920
Speaker 2: thing and to support me. I mean, I think so

1787
01:53:22,960 --> 01:53:26,000
Speaker 2: many times people say, like behind every good man is

1788
01:53:26,040 --> 01:53:29,280
Speaker 2: an even better woman, but in this case, like it's

1789
01:53:29,360 --> 01:53:33,200
Speaker 2: kind of the opposite, because he's he's just if I

1790
01:53:33,280 --> 01:53:35,720
Speaker 2: was a garden like, I wouldn't be growing if it

1791
01:53:35,800 --> 01:53:37,200
Speaker 2: wasn't for him.

1792
01:53:37,280 --> 01:53:40,280
Speaker 1: Also a really left field thing which you reference, but

1793
01:53:40,320 --> 01:53:45,920
Speaker 1: it's also in the book What's up with playing drums?

1794
01:53:46,160 --> 01:53:50,280
Speaker 2: I'm a drummer. I'm a drummer. I have never really

1795
01:53:50,320 --> 01:53:58,280
Speaker 2: had any professional drum lessons. I just I got this

1796
01:53:58,400 --> 01:54:03,680
Speaker 2: drum kit. I actually bought it for Jeremy. I had

1797
01:54:03,680 --> 01:54:05,519
Speaker 2: been in a car accident and I got a settlement,

1798
01:54:05,960 --> 01:54:08,240
Speaker 2: and instead of taking the money to do therapy, I

1799
01:54:08,280 --> 01:54:10,519
Speaker 2: went and bought a Tama drum kit that was like

1800
01:54:10,560 --> 01:54:14,240
Speaker 2: the Dave Girl like drum kit with the huge bass drum.

1801
01:54:14,240 --> 01:54:17,800
Speaker 2: And I got at home and Jeremy really couldn't play

1802
01:54:17,840 --> 01:54:20,280
Speaker 2: the drums very well, but I sat behind it. He

1803
01:54:20,360 --> 01:54:22,479
Speaker 2: had some of his dude friends over for a band

1804
01:54:22,520 --> 01:54:25,200
Speaker 2: practice and I started. I ended up being their drummer

1805
01:54:25,240 --> 01:54:30,080
Speaker 2: for a while. I don't know if it's just my experience.

1806
01:54:30,200 --> 01:54:32,640
Speaker 2: Like tap dancing, I was a tap dancer for a

1807
01:54:32,640 --> 01:54:35,560
Speaker 2: long time and you have to move your feet in

1808
01:54:35,600 --> 01:54:39,880
Speaker 2: your arms at different times. And I love playing drums.

1809
01:54:39,920 --> 01:54:43,040
Speaker 2: I just sat in a keep on Rocking in the

1810
01:54:43,040 --> 01:54:48,000
Speaker 2: Free World with Lucas Neilson and Steve Steven Wilson Junior

1811
01:54:49,080 --> 01:54:50,400
Speaker 2: at Newport and it was a lot of fun.

1812
01:54:51,880 --> 01:54:55,680
Speaker 1: Okay, you mentioned dudes, and you also mentioned in the

1813
01:54:55,680 --> 01:54:58,240
Speaker 1: books Good to Have a Girlfriend. Are you more of

1814
01:54:58,240 --> 01:55:01,800
Speaker 1: a girly girl? Are you more like a guy girl?

1815
01:55:03,520 --> 01:55:06,720
Speaker 2: I hate to admit it, but yeah, I feel like

1816
01:55:06,840 --> 01:55:12,160
Speaker 2: I am usually one of the guys. I I definitely

1817
01:55:12,200 --> 01:55:15,160
Speaker 2: have a close group of girlfriends that I love to

1818
01:55:15,200 --> 01:55:18,520
Speaker 2: get together with and you know, take girls trips. But

1819
01:55:18,560 --> 01:55:23,520
Speaker 2: the majority of my life is spent hanging out with

1820
01:55:23,880 --> 01:55:29,400
Speaker 2: more more dudes, and I love to hike and fish

1821
01:55:29,720 --> 01:55:34,400
Speaker 2: and do outdoorsy type things. I'm probably more of a

1822
01:55:34,400 --> 01:55:37,560
Speaker 2: tomboy than like my husband is. Like I like to camp,

1823
01:55:37,880 --> 01:55:40,640
Speaker 2: I like to mow the lawn, and like I take

1824
01:55:40,680 --> 01:55:44,160
Speaker 2: out the garbage and he goes to the grocery store

1825
01:55:44,200 --> 01:55:52,000
Speaker 2: and cooks the meals. Like our house is very reverse roles.

1826
01:55:55,680 --> 01:55:59,560
Speaker 1: Okay, your husband thinks he can't have children, you get pregnant,

1827
01:56:00,840 --> 01:56:03,680
Speaker 1: You're not even on the way up, you're kind of nowhere.

1828
01:56:04,360 --> 01:56:05,600
Speaker 1: What goes through your head?

1829
01:56:07,360 --> 01:56:11,040
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean it was the worst timing. It was.

1830
01:56:12,280 --> 01:56:14,520
Speaker 2: I had just kind of thought like, Okay, maybe we

1831
01:56:14,520 --> 01:56:19,360
Speaker 2: should just have dogs and travel Europe and not have

1832
01:56:19,440 --> 01:56:25,120
Speaker 2: any children because we were so financially unstable. I mean,

1833
01:56:25,920 --> 01:56:29,280
Speaker 2: we were just barely eking by. Like I said, the

1834
01:56:29,320 --> 01:56:33,720
Speaker 2: water was always being shut off, the electricity. We just

1835
01:56:34,680 --> 01:56:41,280
Speaker 2: we were completely irresponsible. But we somehow have raised two

1836
01:56:41,360 --> 01:56:46,240
Speaker 2: incredible kids. And they came along right at a time.

1837
01:56:46,520 --> 01:56:49,280
Speaker 2: I really think that we needed them because as hard

1838
01:56:49,280 --> 01:56:53,280
Speaker 2: as we've partied, Like my son Judah, he's fifteen now,

1839
01:56:54,800 --> 01:56:58,840
Speaker 2: he really he kept us in line. Even when we

1840
01:56:58,840 --> 01:57:00,400
Speaker 2: weren't in line. It would be like one of us

1841
01:57:00,400 --> 01:57:03,440
Speaker 2: would always make sure that we were going to be

1842
01:57:03,480 --> 01:57:09,800
Speaker 2: clear headed and be attentive for him, because it's I mean,

1843
01:57:09,840 --> 01:57:14,440
Speaker 2: having kids, it just changes everything. It's wild. So probably

1844
01:57:14,480 --> 01:57:16,840
Speaker 2: it saved us in a lot of ways.

1845
01:57:17,760 --> 01:57:19,760
Speaker 1: Okay, whats your parenting style?

1846
01:57:21,800 --> 01:57:27,440
Speaker 2: Parenting style, Well, we don't like screens in our house.

1847
01:57:27,800 --> 01:57:31,720
Speaker 2: We're very strict on the screens. We are, but we're like,

1848
01:57:32,960 --> 01:57:34,880
Speaker 2: do what you want. Other than that, like I love

1849
01:57:34,960 --> 01:57:38,560
Speaker 2: to let my kids climb trees and be outside and

1850
01:57:38,600 --> 01:57:43,880
Speaker 2: get messy, and I think sometimes I struggle with the

1851
01:57:46,360 --> 01:57:49,720
Speaker 2: being like instead of being like the mom. Sometimes I

1852
01:57:49,840 --> 01:57:52,200
Speaker 2: come back from tour and I'm like the cool aunt

1853
01:57:52,400 --> 01:57:55,280
Speaker 2: to my own children, which is really tough. You know.

1854
01:57:55,360 --> 01:57:58,120
Speaker 2: I like bring them a toy and I spoil them

1855
01:57:58,160 --> 01:57:59,600
Speaker 2: for a few days, and then I have to go

1856
01:57:59,640 --> 01:58:02,600
Speaker 2: back out again. And so I think my husband has

1857
01:58:02,640 --> 01:58:06,800
Speaker 2: to be the bad cop more. And my mother, she's

1858
01:58:07,080 --> 01:58:11,320
Speaker 2: helping us raise these kids, and I really couldn't do

1859
01:58:11,360 --> 01:58:15,400
Speaker 2: it without her. She's you know, Grandma's here all the time.

1860
01:58:15,760 --> 01:58:19,440
Speaker 1: Okay, your kid wants to drop out of college to

1861
01:58:19,520 --> 01:58:23,360
Speaker 1: do god knows what, drinking and drugging. You say, man,

1862
01:58:23,440 --> 01:58:26,720
Speaker 1: that's what I did. Go for it. Well, you say, no, no, no,

1863
01:58:26,800 --> 01:58:27,960
Speaker 1: that's not the way to do it.

1864
01:58:30,000 --> 01:58:35,040
Speaker 2: No. I have been very transparent about substances with my

1865
01:58:35,360 --> 01:58:39,800
Speaker 2: kid and even with following a career in music, because

1866
01:58:40,000 --> 01:58:43,760
Speaker 2: it is such a tough way of life, and I

1867
01:58:43,800 --> 01:58:46,480
Speaker 2: don't know that I would wish this upon anybody unless

1868
01:58:46,480 --> 01:58:48,520
Speaker 2: they just were so sick in the head to do it.

1869
01:58:50,760 --> 01:58:54,480
Speaker 2: And my son, actually, he came home first day at

1870
01:58:54,560 --> 01:58:59,960
Speaker 2: high school the other day, and he's been very into

1871
01:59:00,200 --> 01:59:04,240
Speaker 2: soccer lately. That's been kind of his passion. But he

1872
01:59:04,240 --> 01:59:07,840
Speaker 2: he's played drums, he's played piano, he's played guitar and

1873
01:59:07,920 --> 01:59:10,840
Speaker 2: had lessons in the past. But he came home first

1874
01:59:10,920 --> 01:59:14,200
Speaker 2: day at high school. He joined a band. He joined

1875
01:59:14,200 --> 01:59:16,680
Speaker 2: a rock band. He's playing keys and he sits down.

1876
01:59:16,760 --> 01:59:20,800
Speaker 2: He starts playing knocking on Heaven's Door, and I'm like, man, Okay,

1877
01:59:20,960 --> 01:59:22,800
Speaker 2: maybe we should have put you in public school a

1878
01:59:22,840 --> 01:59:25,920
Speaker 2: long time ago. He's been at these private schools and

1879
01:59:26,440 --> 01:59:29,280
Speaker 2: it's crazy, and you know, me and my husband are like, wow,

1880
01:59:29,560 --> 01:59:32,160
Speaker 2: like maybe there's hope for him yet. But I also

1881
01:59:32,240 --> 01:59:33,800
Speaker 2: am like part of me just wants them to be

1882
01:59:33,920 --> 01:59:39,000
Speaker 2: like an you know, have just like a straight normal job,

1883
01:59:39,360 --> 01:59:42,600
Speaker 2: because it is. It's just such a hard way of life.

1884
01:59:42,720 --> 01:59:43,840
Speaker 2: It really it is.

1885
01:59:44,000 --> 01:59:46,760
Speaker 1: So you're saying, it's like family ties. You're the hippie

1886
01:59:46,800 --> 01:59:47,920
Speaker 1: and your kid is the nerd.

1887
01:59:49,120 --> 01:59:55,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I think you know he's he's got these

1888
01:59:55,520 --> 01:59:58,920
Speaker 2: weird hippie parents. He's always like, what's up with the

1889
01:59:58,960 --> 02:00:02,320
Speaker 2: furniture in this house? Everything's old, and you know he's

1890
02:00:03,800 --> 02:00:07,760
Speaker 2: he definitely it's like he doesn't think we're not cool,

1891
02:00:07,960 --> 02:00:11,680
Speaker 2: but you've got to try to rebel against your parents.

1892
02:00:11,680 --> 02:00:14,680
Speaker 2: Who are like the most rebellious. He's it's your only

1893
02:00:14,800 --> 02:00:16,920
Speaker 2: option is to be like straight laced.

1894
02:00:18,160 --> 02:00:20,280
Speaker 1: And how did you decide to put him in public school?

1895
02:00:21,920 --> 02:00:26,120
Speaker 2: He made that decision. He just visited the school he

1896
02:00:26,160 --> 02:00:32,160
Speaker 2: wanted to go, and, like I said, one of the extracurriculars,

1897
02:00:32,200 --> 02:00:35,760
Speaker 2: you can join a rock band. And so it's it's

1898
02:00:35,800 --> 02:00:38,640
Speaker 2: been kind of crazy. We've all been sitting around jamming

1899
02:00:38,720 --> 02:00:40,440
Speaker 2: on knocking on Heaven's door all week.

1900
02:00:43,080 --> 02:00:45,879
Speaker 1: Okay, how did you and your family cope during COVID

1901
02:00:45,920 --> 02:00:46,600
Speaker 1: in lockdown?

1902
02:00:49,160 --> 02:00:55,920
Speaker 2: We could have coped better. We Yeah, we were very

1903
02:00:55,920 --> 02:00:59,160
Speaker 2: isolated at the beginning of it. My husband actually had COVID.

1904
02:00:59,320 --> 02:01:04,360
Speaker 2: He got it in York and he was just in

1905
02:01:04,440 --> 02:01:09,360
Speaker 2: such a bad place. He it took a month to

1906
02:01:09,440 --> 02:01:13,560
Speaker 2: feel better, and we had a new baby at home,

1907
02:01:14,040 --> 02:01:19,560
Speaker 2: and I got almost like over the top, kind of

1908
02:01:19,600 --> 02:01:22,800
Speaker 2: like germophobe, where it took me a really long time

1909
02:01:22,840 --> 02:01:25,000
Speaker 2: to go back out in public and want to eat

1910
02:01:25,080 --> 02:01:29,400
Speaker 2: at restaurants and want to see people. And it was

1911
02:01:29,400 --> 02:01:31,720
Speaker 2: funny because my husband was the one who got COVID

1912
02:01:31,760 --> 02:01:34,440
Speaker 2: and he was so sick with it, and I never

1913
02:01:34,480 --> 02:01:37,160
Speaker 2: felt sick anytime I tested positive for it. I was

1914
02:01:37,200 --> 02:01:42,440
Speaker 2: still super healthy, but I just it affected me, it

1915
02:01:42,480 --> 02:01:46,520
Speaker 2: affected the kids. We just we stayed shut in, we

1916
02:01:46,560 --> 02:01:48,720
Speaker 2: really did. But we listened to a lot of music

1917
02:01:48,880 --> 02:01:52,960
Speaker 2: and we bonded with each other and we had lots

1918
02:01:52,960 --> 02:01:55,160
Speaker 2: of hangs over at the house with lots of people

1919
02:01:55,240 --> 02:01:58,760
Speaker 2: just coming to see us and sit outside and swim

1920
02:01:58,800 --> 02:02:02,160
Speaker 2: in the pool. And yeah, it was it was a

1921
02:02:02,160 --> 02:02:06,200
Speaker 2: good time. I think I fell back in love with

1922
02:02:06,200 --> 02:02:09,360
Speaker 2: with listening to music during that time. I really I

1923
02:02:09,440 --> 02:02:10,320
Speaker 2: listened again.

1924
02:02:11,440 --> 02:02:13,160
Speaker 1: And how did you cope financially?

1925
02:02:15,320 --> 02:02:20,360
Speaker 2: I had a really great savings that that was there,

1926
02:02:20,520 --> 02:02:24,120
Speaker 2: and you know, there were little things that we did,

1927
02:02:24,760 --> 02:02:28,280
Speaker 2: like I did a podcast with sons, and you know,

1928
02:02:28,400 --> 02:02:32,200
Speaker 2: there were things that that came that I mean I have.

1929
02:02:32,480 --> 02:02:35,120
Speaker 2: I had a weed deal with Willie Nelson's weed company,

1930
02:02:35,320 --> 02:02:38,040
Speaker 2: and you know, I'm trying to diversify because we know

1931
02:02:38,240 --> 02:02:44,320
Speaker 2: that the money that there once was for people who

1932
02:02:44,320 --> 02:02:47,040
Speaker 2: wrote their own songs is just not what it used

1933
02:02:47,080 --> 02:02:47,240
Speaker 2: to be.

1934
02:02:48,680 --> 02:02:53,000
Speaker 1: Okay, trying to think of a way to ask this,

1935
02:02:53,120 --> 02:02:56,520
Speaker 1: I can get an honesty answer. You have the male musicians,

1936
02:02:57,240 --> 02:03:00,680
Speaker 1: they have a bunch of kids in their never home. Okay,

1937
02:03:01,960 --> 02:03:05,920
Speaker 1: many get divorced, re married, have more kids, whatever. That's

1938
02:03:05,960 --> 02:03:08,840
Speaker 1: not exactly what I'm asking, but I have to put

1939
02:03:08,880 --> 02:03:12,040
Speaker 1: that in the mix. I'm gonna ask you point Blake,

1940
02:03:12,200 --> 02:03:14,080
Speaker 1: you won't give me an honesty answer, and then I'll spay.

1941
02:03:14,800 --> 02:03:18,400
Speaker 1: Is music number one? Is it more important to do

1942
02:03:18,560 --> 02:03:21,920
Speaker 1: your music in your career than your relationship and then

1943
02:03:21,960 --> 02:03:25,000
Speaker 1: your kids. We're not taking the kids out of the picture,

1944
02:03:25,320 --> 02:03:27,880
Speaker 1: we're not taking the husband out of the picture. But

1945
02:03:28,000 --> 02:03:30,480
Speaker 1: if something happened where they say no, Margo, you know

1946
02:03:30,600 --> 02:03:33,120
Speaker 1: this is done because you have to be here for

1947
02:03:33,240 --> 02:03:36,320
Speaker 1: the kids in the and the husband. I can't think

1948
02:03:36,360 --> 02:03:39,600
Speaker 1: of a situation, but let's say there's no doubt you're

1949
02:03:39,600 --> 02:03:40,320
Speaker 1: gonna say what.

1950
02:03:43,520 --> 02:03:48,240
Speaker 2: I think. I would obviously pick my family and my

1951
02:03:48,360 --> 02:03:52,360
Speaker 2: children any day of the week, but I don't think

1952
02:03:52,400 --> 02:03:55,200
Speaker 2: that the mother that they would be left with would

1953
02:03:55,200 --> 02:03:59,760
Speaker 2: be much of a mother. I think music is what

1954
02:03:59,800 --> 02:04:05,760
Speaker 2: makes me tick. And during COVID, I was so depressed.

1955
02:04:06,200 --> 02:04:11,360
Speaker 2: Was I was purposeless, I was driftless. I was drinking

1956
02:04:11,760 --> 02:04:14,880
Speaker 2: so much because I had nothing to look forward to.

1957
02:04:15,120 --> 02:04:16,960
Speaker 2: I used to do the show and then get drunk,

1958
02:04:17,120 --> 02:04:18,680
Speaker 2: but there was no show, so it was like I

1959
02:04:18,760 --> 02:04:21,800
Speaker 2: might as well just be drunk all the time. So

1960
02:04:22,000 --> 02:04:24,240
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, the answer would be that I would

1961
02:04:24,240 --> 02:04:27,440
Speaker 2: be with my children. But I don't know what kind

1962
02:04:27,520 --> 02:04:30,760
Speaker 2: of human I would be at all. And I try

1963
02:04:30,800 --> 02:04:33,440
Speaker 2: to remind myself of that because sometimes I just get

1964
02:04:34,400 --> 02:04:40,720
Speaker 2: so overwhelmed and I feel like like I'm half assing

1965
02:04:40,720 --> 02:04:43,280
Speaker 2: my way through everything, you know, like, oh, there's not

1966
02:04:43,400 --> 02:04:45,160
Speaker 2: enough time for my marriage, there's not enough time for

1967
02:04:45,200 --> 02:04:52,360
Speaker 2: my kids, there's not enough time for my music. But yeah,

1968
02:04:52,400 --> 02:04:56,240
Speaker 2: I know that my kids wouldn't even want that for me.

1969
02:04:56,400 --> 02:04:59,560
Speaker 2: They know, they know that I'm most happy when I'm

1970
02:05:00,400 --> 02:05:01,440
Speaker 2: able to do what I love.

1971
02:05:03,520 --> 02:05:06,160
Speaker 1: Okay, you know you talk about the new management company

1972
02:05:06,280 --> 02:05:09,320
Speaker 1: with corn Capsule red Light, and you're saying, I want

1973
02:05:09,320 --> 02:05:12,320
Speaker 1: to do movies. I want to do music for movies.

1974
02:05:12,360 --> 02:05:16,320
Speaker 1: I want to write books. But in reality, first and foremost,

1975
02:05:16,320 --> 02:05:19,960
Speaker 1: you're a singer songwriter. Let's just use that appellation. Let's

1976
02:05:20,000 --> 02:05:25,560
Speaker 1: not get caught up in names. Okay. We established at

1977
02:05:25,600 --> 02:05:31,080
Speaker 1: the beginning that the landscape is changing. What do you want?

1978
02:05:31,400 --> 02:05:34,560
Speaker 1: What do you want to happen? You have any fear

1979
02:05:35,120 --> 02:05:36,240
Speaker 1: that it'll slip away?

1980
02:05:39,040 --> 02:05:43,400
Speaker 2: Just my career in general, Yeah, I think if you

1981
02:05:43,480 --> 02:05:48,120
Speaker 2: don't keep working hard at absolutely will And I did

1982
02:05:48,200 --> 02:05:52,920
Speaker 2: take off a lot of time this past year, I

1983
02:05:52,960 --> 02:05:55,440
Speaker 2: took off more time than I've taken off in a decade,

1984
02:05:56,280 --> 02:05:59,440
Speaker 2: and I needed it. I needed to rebuild my bands,

1985
02:06:00,280 --> 02:06:08,640
Speaker 2: to rebuild my business. But I think that I don't

1986
02:06:08,640 --> 02:06:11,960
Speaker 2: think I would ever let my career slip away because

1987
02:06:12,040 --> 02:06:18,800
Speaker 2: I just I'm too driven, I'm too hungry. I am.

1988
02:06:20,800 --> 02:06:26,440
Speaker 2: I know that I can continue to find inspiration and

1989
02:06:26,520 --> 02:06:29,480
Speaker 2: reinvent myself and get out there and play live shows.

1990
02:06:29,560 --> 02:06:33,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I've been so lucky to get to meet

1991
02:06:33,560 --> 02:06:35,720
Speaker 2: so many of my heroes and get to really like,

1992
02:06:38,000 --> 02:06:40,720
Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, pick their brain for advice.

1993
02:06:40,840 --> 02:06:43,760
Speaker 2: And I know that everybody goes through these like dips

1994
02:06:43,840 --> 02:06:46,360
Speaker 2: in their career as well, you know, like if you

1995
02:06:46,480 --> 02:06:48,720
Speaker 2: have if you're a legacy artist and you have a

1996
02:06:48,760 --> 02:06:55,360
Speaker 2: career that spans like decades, and I think, I don't know,

1997
02:06:55,640 --> 02:06:57,840
Speaker 2: I'm just I'm really trying to remain true to my

1998
02:06:57,960 --> 02:07:00,920
Speaker 2: art and not get caught up like doing things that

1999
02:07:02,160 --> 02:07:04,800
Speaker 2: feel like, oh, you're doing this to like stay young

2000
02:07:04,960 --> 02:07:08,120
Speaker 2: or stay hip, whether it's the TikTok dances or like,

2001
02:07:08,840 --> 02:07:11,400
Speaker 2: you know, all the trends and things that people try.

2002
02:07:11,640 --> 02:07:19,200
Speaker 2: I just, yeah, it's just not me. But yeah, I

2003
02:07:19,240 --> 02:07:20,920
Speaker 2: don't know, I don't know if that answers a question

2004
02:07:21,880 --> 02:07:22,240
Speaker 2: you did.

2005
02:07:22,360 --> 02:07:25,480
Speaker 1: Okay. Back in the eighties and the heyday of MTV,

2006
02:07:25,640 --> 02:07:29,680
Speaker 1: the rock bands would talk about world domination and literally

2007
02:07:29,720 --> 02:07:32,480
Speaker 1: the police started that their father was in the CIA.

2008
02:07:32,680 --> 02:07:35,200
Speaker 1: They toured all these crazy places where no one had

2009
02:07:35,200 --> 02:07:39,160
Speaker 1: ever toured before. Conversely, no one gets more pressed than

2010
02:07:39,280 --> 02:07:43,640
Speaker 1: Taylor's Swift. And I would say, other than her fans,

2011
02:07:43,680 --> 02:07:46,280
Speaker 1: the average person can't even sing two songs of hers

2012
02:07:46,800 --> 02:07:48,920
Speaker 1: name them. I only use her. She wrote a song

2013
02:07:48,920 --> 02:07:50,520
Speaker 1: about me. I don't want to get into Taylor Swift.

2014
02:07:50,560 --> 02:07:52,960
Speaker 1: I only use her because you like at the top

2015
02:07:53,000 --> 02:07:56,000
Speaker 1: of the pyramid, right. I'm going to tell one other

2016
02:07:56,120 --> 02:07:59,160
Speaker 1: story that is kind of the same thing. This is

2017
02:07:59,200 --> 02:08:02,000
Speaker 1: twenty years ago. Brian Adams was on tour with def

2018
02:08:02,120 --> 02:08:06,080
Speaker 1: Leppard in baseball stadiums, minor league ballparks, and they would

2019
02:08:06,120 --> 02:08:09,880
Speaker 1: flip headliners and as you know, an experienced rude person,

2020
02:08:10,240 --> 02:08:12,840
Speaker 1: you'd rather go on when it's dark. And on this

2021
02:08:12,920 --> 02:08:17,800
Speaker 1: particular day, Brian Adams was playing and it was still

2022
02:08:17,880 --> 02:08:20,120
Speaker 1: light out. I'm standing on the side of the stage.

2023
02:08:20,240 --> 02:08:22,680
Speaker 1: He literally takes up the set list and looks at

2024
02:08:22,680 --> 02:08:25,120
Speaker 1: the rest of the band, rips it in half and

2025
02:08:25,160 --> 02:08:28,600
Speaker 1: you literally see him work hard to win over the audience,

2026
02:08:28,600 --> 02:08:32,560
Speaker 1: which he does. So those are it's a two part question,

2027
02:08:32,680 --> 02:08:37,600
Speaker 1: to what degree deep inside do you still want world domination?

2028
02:08:38,080 --> 02:08:40,920
Speaker 1: And do you believe if they put someone in front

2029
02:08:40,960 --> 02:08:44,760
Speaker 1: of you you can close them.

2030
02:08:45,000 --> 02:08:50,600
Speaker 2: I have definitely had to win over fans that I'm

2031
02:08:50,600 --> 02:08:53,960
Speaker 2: walking out there and I'm knowing they don't like me.

2032
02:08:54,400 --> 02:08:56,400
Speaker 2: Not only do they not know who I am, Oh,

2033
02:08:56,440 --> 02:08:59,480
Speaker 2: they do know me, and they probably don't like me.

2034
02:09:00,920 --> 02:09:04,840
Speaker 2: I I still I think I put on a better

2035
02:09:04,920 --> 02:09:10,360
Speaker 2: show when I feel like the audience is unaware of

2036
02:09:10,360 --> 02:09:15,680
Speaker 2: who I am or you know, I I will, I

2037
02:09:15,760 --> 02:09:19,520
Speaker 2: will work the stage and I will and I will

2038
02:09:19,520 --> 02:09:24,800
Speaker 2: win them over. I really will. I've I've opened a

2039
02:09:24,800 --> 02:09:27,200
Speaker 2: lot of shows. I have been the person playing when

2040
02:09:27,240 --> 02:09:33,320
Speaker 2: the sun's still up, and uh, yeah, that's just it's

2041
02:09:33,400 --> 02:09:37,480
Speaker 2: just in my it's just in my dna. I I

2042
02:09:37,520 --> 02:09:43,800
Speaker 2: feel like I don't really I don't really care if

2043
02:09:43,840 --> 02:09:45,760
Speaker 2: I get to the point of being like, oh, I'm

2044
02:09:45,800 --> 02:09:50,120
Speaker 2: selling stadiums or you know, that's that's like kind of

2045
02:09:50,160 --> 02:09:52,480
Speaker 2: never been my m O. And I think when you

2046
02:09:52,520 --> 02:09:55,560
Speaker 2: when you look at artists like even like Bob Dylan

2047
02:09:55,680 --> 02:09:57,600
Speaker 2: or something like look at the effect that he's had.

2048
02:09:58,080 --> 02:10:01,560
Speaker 2: Does it matter what size like rooms he's playing, No,

2049
02:10:01,720 --> 02:10:05,680
Speaker 2: he's He's a fucking legend and he he followed his

2050
02:10:06,200 --> 02:10:11,920
Speaker 2: muse to the very end. I think anything that is

2051
02:10:12,360 --> 02:10:15,760
Speaker 2: successful enough to be in a giant stadium is like,

2052
02:10:16,120 --> 02:10:18,520
Speaker 2: there's probably a reason because it's probably a little bit

2053
02:10:18,520 --> 02:10:23,360
Speaker 2: more generic and there's and there's nothing wrong with that.

2054
02:10:23,400 --> 02:10:25,800
Speaker 2: There's a place for that. That's just not my place.

2055
02:10:26,120 --> 02:10:30,600
Speaker 2: My place is like, you know, I don't know, hopefully

2056
02:10:30,680 --> 02:10:35,520
Speaker 2: somebody somewhere more like in the the Joan Biez or

2057
02:10:35,560 --> 02:10:39,880
Speaker 2: like the Bonnie Right kind of you know. It's like,

2058
02:10:39,960 --> 02:10:43,200
Speaker 2: I'm dedicated to the craft, to the music. I never

2059
02:10:43,320 --> 02:10:48,240
Speaker 2: want anything to to sell out in a way. That's

2060
02:10:48,400 --> 02:10:52,520
Speaker 2: just I'm doing this because it will get me x

2061
02:10:52,560 --> 02:10:53,280
Speaker 2: amount of fans.

2062
02:10:53,480 --> 02:10:58,160
Speaker 1: Okay, talk about Sturgiel Simpson, you talk about Alabama shikestaying

2063
02:10:58,280 --> 02:11:01,880
Speaker 1: at your house, opening for Jason in Bell. You're a

2064
02:11:01,880 --> 02:11:05,200
Speaker 1: student of the game you talk about and a student

2065
02:11:05,240 --> 02:11:07,920
Speaker 1: of the music, Bob Dylan, etcetera. What do you think

2066
02:11:07,960 --> 02:11:09,040
Speaker 1: about today's music.

2067
02:11:12,320 --> 02:11:19,160
Speaker 2: I think there's there's some good stuff out there if

2068
02:11:19,160 --> 02:11:24,120
Speaker 2: you know where to look. But I also think there's

2069
02:11:24,160 --> 02:11:28,800
Speaker 2: a lot of shit. I think there's, like I said,

2070
02:11:28,800 --> 02:11:34,800
Speaker 2: there's a lot of things being a kind of hoisted

2071
02:11:34,920 --> 02:11:38,040
Speaker 2: up as being like real or or down to earth

2072
02:11:38,200 --> 02:11:40,720
Speaker 2: or like, oh, this is the authentic thing, and like

2073
02:11:43,120 --> 02:11:45,400
Speaker 2: I don't always see it. And I don't want to

2074
02:11:45,680 --> 02:11:50,240
Speaker 2: name names or pick any fights, but I just there's

2075
02:11:50,320 --> 02:11:55,400
Speaker 2: a lot of midship that is, you know, because it's popular,

2076
02:11:57,120 --> 02:12:02,000
Speaker 2: people think that it's the best thing ever. But popularity

2077
02:12:02,200 --> 02:12:05,400
Speaker 2: doesn't equal quality, And I think you can just go

2078
02:12:05,560 --> 02:12:10,400
Speaker 2: to like case in point, McDonald sells the most burgers,

2079
02:12:10,440 --> 02:12:11,560
Speaker 2: but it's not the best burger.

2080
02:12:12,880 --> 02:12:14,040
Speaker 1: Who is the best burger?

2081
02:12:15,480 --> 02:12:21,080
Speaker 2: Who is the best burger? Like today's Yeah, all right,

2082
02:12:21,120 --> 02:12:21,640
Speaker 2: eat man?

2083
02:12:21,800 --> 02:12:25,280
Speaker 1: I just well, do you maybe I don't need burgers.

2084
02:12:26,720 --> 02:12:30,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I eat impossible burgers. I eat meat still every

2085
02:12:30,280 --> 02:12:34,640
Speaker 2: now and then. I think Tyler Childers is uh phenomenal.

2086
02:12:34,800 --> 02:12:41,520
Speaker 2: I think he's an artist who is really reaching, stretching, growing,

2087
02:12:43,320 --> 02:12:48,840
Speaker 2: but remaining true to himself. I think, you know, as

2088
02:12:48,840 --> 02:12:51,840
Speaker 2: far as new stuff goes, there's there's a band called

2089
02:12:51,880 --> 02:12:55,200
Speaker 2: Rattlesnake Milk that I'm really stoked on. I'm really hyped on.

2090
02:12:55,240 --> 02:12:57,640
Speaker 2: They're going to open for me at my show at

2091
02:12:57,640 --> 02:13:03,520
Speaker 2: the Ryman they're phenomenal. There's definitely a lot of like

2092
02:13:03,840 --> 02:13:09,840
Speaker 2: incredible young virtuoso talents like I think Billy Strings, you

2093
02:13:09,880 --> 02:13:14,680
Speaker 2: know is and Molly Tuttle, They're they're phenomenal players. Sierra

2094
02:13:14,760 --> 02:13:20,000
Speaker 2: Ferrell is like a really wonderful singer. There's a lot

2095
02:13:20,040 --> 02:13:25,040
Speaker 2: of people out there that are that are making great records.

2096
02:13:25,120 --> 02:13:28,240
Speaker 2: And but like I said, there's also a lot of

2097
02:13:28,320 --> 02:13:35,280
Speaker 2: really midship that just gets Tod did as being as

2098
02:13:35,320 --> 02:13:37,240
Speaker 2: being more real than it is.

2099
02:13:40,200 --> 02:13:44,200
Speaker 1: Okay, Finally, in your book, you go on about you

2100
02:13:44,240 --> 02:13:48,040
Speaker 1: and your husband Jeremy getting into a kinksphase. What are

2101
02:13:48,120 --> 02:13:49,920
Speaker 1: your favorite Kink songs?

2102
02:13:50,960 --> 02:13:57,840
Speaker 2: M Strangers? That's one of my favorites This Time Tomorrow,

2103
02:14:02,280 --> 02:14:04,600
Speaker 2: I mean, of course, like Sunny Afternoon was one of

2104
02:14:04,680 --> 02:14:07,840
Speaker 2: the first songs that I learned how to play. I

2105
02:14:07,880 --> 02:14:12,080
Speaker 2: love I Need to write Ray and Dave Davies both

2106
02:14:12,160 --> 02:14:15,840
Speaker 2: like a letter and just thank them for the music.

2107
02:14:17,000 --> 02:14:23,640
Speaker 2: All of Muswell Hillbillies, Lola Versus power Man. Yeah, Strangers though,

2108
02:14:23,680 --> 02:14:26,440
Speaker 2: that's like the song Strangers in This Time Tomorrow. Those

2109
02:14:26,600 --> 02:14:30,800
Speaker 2: two songs like they just they got punched me in

2110
02:14:30,920 --> 02:14:32,360
Speaker 2: a really great way.

2111
02:14:33,960 --> 02:14:36,080
Speaker 1: My favorite do you know Preservation Act too?

2112
02:14:37,800 --> 02:14:38,520
Speaker 2: Yeah?

2113
02:14:38,600 --> 02:14:41,720
Speaker 1: Do you know, money talks, funny talks.

2114
02:14:41,800 --> 02:14:42,640
Speaker 2: I need to look that one.

2115
02:14:42,680 --> 02:14:44,920
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, show me a man who can live without bread,

2116
02:14:44,960 --> 02:14:47,200
Speaker 1: and I'll show you a man who's a liar in debt.

2117
02:14:47,720 --> 02:14:50,880
Speaker 1: There's no man alive you can't live without who won't

2118
02:14:50,880 --> 02:14:53,480
Speaker 1: sell for a price. Money talks, and we're the living proof.

2119
02:14:54,640 --> 02:14:56,480
Speaker 2: Ooh, that's beautiful.

2120
02:14:56,520 --> 02:14:59,440
Speaker 1: I'll leave you with that. Margo, thanks so much for

2121
02:14:59,520 --> 02:15:02,000
Speaker 1: taking the time to talk with me and my audience.

2122
02:15:02,800 --> 02:15:06,440
Speaker 2: Absolutely, we've been reading your newsletter for a very long time.

2123
02:15:06,560 --> 02:15:08,200
Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to speak with you.

2124
02:15:08,760 --> 02:15:12,200
Speaker 1: Cool. Here I am till next time. This is Bob

2125
02:15:12,320 --> 02:15:12,880
Speaker 1: left Sis