Speaker 1: I know that regular listeners of the show, we're expecting
Speaker 1: to hit play and immediately here some awesome quote from
Speaker 1: the upcoming episode. But instead what you have is me,
Speaker 1: your friend Chris, telling you that this is a special
Speaker 1: episode celebrating Friendship Day two thousand one, which was actually
Speaker 1: on August one. So we've made this entire episode which
Speaker 1: is our own Jenny interviewing me and Eric about our friendship.
Speaker 1: Its origins are experience creating the podcast and all the
Speaker 1: years in between. Welcome to the one you feed throughout time,
Speaker 1: great tinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.
Speaker 1: Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think ring true, and yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We what we don't have
Speaker 1: instead of what we do. We think things that hold
Speaker 1: us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just
Speaker 1: about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and
Speaker 1: creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast
Speaker 1: is about how other people keep themselves moving in the
Speaker 1: right direction, how they feed their good Wolf welcome to
Speaker 1: the show. Chris, thank you, and Jenny well, thank you
Speaker 1: so much. We are doing uh special friendship episode. This
Speaker 1: podcast was formed largely out of the friendship between Chris
Speaker 1: and I and in honor of international or National Friendship Day,
Speaker 1: which was sometime recently. We thought it would be fun
Speaker 1: to have an interview with Chris and I. It was
Speaker 1: Nicole's idea, wasn't it. It was Nicole, are are valuable
Speaker 1: part of the when you Feed team, Nicole. So that's
Speaker 1: what we're doing here. So I'm going to hand it
Speaker 1: over to Jenny, who is running the show. This feels
Speaker 1: very very new. I'm driving. I'm driving this time, alright, Jenny,
Speaker 1: don't forget to mention that the music we played at
Speaker 1: the beginning of the episode, That's what Friends Are For,
Speaker 1: was sung by Nicole. Superman has a price out on
Speaker 1: my head for saying mentioning music. Though. It is worth
Speaker 1: saying that some people know this, but some may not.
Speaker 1: The intro music and all the music that shows up
Speaker 1: in all the breaks is recorded by either you or me,
Speaker 1: or most frequently the two of us. That's right and
Speaker 1: written by us, written written by written, recorded, performed for
Speaker 1: better and worse yeah, some are really weird, but I
Speaker 1: like the weird ones. Yep. No, it's good. It's music
Speaker 1: being a unifying theme here that we'll certainly get to,
Speaker 1: but before we do, I just want to set the
Speaker 1: stage a little bit. Here. We are at Eric and
Speaker 1: ice house, and um, we've got Lola in one chair,
Speaker 1: We've got Chris and Eric on the couch, and I'm
Speaker 1: sitting here in a chair and it's I don't know,
Speaker 1: mid morning on a Thursday. Um, we've just been listening
Speaker 1: to a playlist that Eric had put together that is
Speaker 1: made up of songs that are important to Chris and
Speaker 1: Eric from a friendship perspective. For the two of them
Speaker 1: throughout the years, they've had some significance to kind of
Speaker 1: get in the mood here. And I will say that
Speaker 1: even as the first song on that playlist started, Eric
Speaker 1: got a little choked up here and thinking about how
Speaker 1: much Chris and their friendship means to whom I choked
Speaker 1: up she means bawling, literally, blubbering, crawling on the deck.
Speaker 1: The thought of having to spend an hour and a
Speaker 1: half with you just reduced me to tears. Alright, alright,
Speaker 1: crying was why did we start this podcast and force
Speaker 1: ourselves to hang out. Alright, okay, okay, Well, let's get
Speaker 1: started like we always do talking about the parable. But
Speaker 1: I thought that maybe it would be interesting for you
Speaker 1: guys to answer what the parable means to you through
Speaker 1: the lens of friendship. Right, So what does it mean
Speaker 1: to you from a perspective of friendship? So, as we
Speaker 1: all know, it goes like this. There was a grandparent
Speaker 1: talking with their grandchild and they said, in life, there
Speaker 1: are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle.
Speaker 1: One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness
Speaker 1: and bravery and love, and one is a bad wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And
Speaker 1: the grandchild thinks about it for a second and looks
Speaker 1: up and says, well, which one wins? And the grandparents says,
Speaker 1: the one you feed. So I'd love to know what
Speaker 1: that parable means to you guys from a friendship perspective.
Speaker 1: I guess I'll go first, go for it, and then
Speaker 1: let you go. A couple of things come to mind.
Speaker 1: I mean. The first is that this podcast started, as
Speaker 1: I sort of alluded to earlier, largely because I thought
Speaker 1: it would be a fun thing for Chris and I
Speaker 1: to do together, and I think that speaks to some
Speaker 1: of what feeding our good Wolf means through the lens
Speaker 1: of friendship, which is that there is a togetherness and
Speaker 1: there is a community that is really critical. When I
Speaker 1: started the show, I thought that what I would learn
Speaker 1: over and over from guests was how important the inner
Speaker 1: life was and to work inside myself, and that has
Speaker 1: been true. I've learned a ton about that and and
Speaker 1: had a lot of great conversations. But the thing that
Speaker 1: has showed up almost as equally that I did not
Speaker 1: expect was how important other people are in feeding our
Speaker 1: good wolf, and that trying to do it alone is
Speaker 1: really difficult to do. And I see this in the
Speaker 1: coaching work I do with people over and over. When
Speaker 1: we try and do things alone, it's a lot harder.
Speaker 1: And so friendship is a way of not being alone.
Speaker 1: And I think that a good friendship we feed each
Speaker 1: other's good wolf. I mean, Chris and I have certainly
Speaker 1: uh fed each other's bad wolf plenty of times, but
Speaker 1: we've also probably on the whole much more often fed
Speaker 1: each other's good wolf. And so I think having people
Speaker 1: in our lives that have a similar value system and
Speaker 1: have love and we can share love is just an
Speaker 1: important part of living a good life. Good answer, Good answer. Oh,
Speaker 1: let's see. Well, I always and only really can think
Speaker 1: of the parable as being about choice. And I think
Speaker 1: there's some saying. I don't know where it came from,
Speaker 1: I guess, but it's something about how you are the
Speaker 1: average of you know, the five people or six people
Speaker 1: or something you see most often wherever that came from.
Speaker 1: Having the choice of who you hang out with could
Speaker 1: be included in that, which is huge. You know, do
Speaker 1: you want to grow? Do you want to have positivity
Speaker 1: in your life? Everything, which Eric certainly brings me. Like
Speaker 1: you said, we have had our bad wolves together. Maybe
Speaker 1: sometimes like if we go into the story about your
Speaker 1: grandmother's liquor cabinet or something like that, that could just
Speaker 1: be one example of It's funny though. I was thinking
Speaker 1: about that, and I think we'll get to that. Early
Speaker 1: in our friendship, we did a lot of drinking together.
Speaker 1: But I had a memory also of that were I
Speaker 1: was probably eighteen years old, maybe nineteen. I think I
Speaker 1: was eighteen when we met and started hanging out, and
Speaker 1: you and I said to each other, I love you, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I had never had a male friend that I
Speaker 1: could say those kind of words to feel. So I
Speaker 1: think even as we were sort of feeding our bad
Speaker 1: wolves in some senses, there was some love underneath it
Speaker 1: that has existed through all the ups and downs, however
Speaker 1: many years. But I was just thinking about that that.
Speaker 1: You know, it seems simpler now, like, yeah, of course
Speaker 1: you say I love you too, people, but this was
Speaker 1: and men, it was just it was a different time,
Speaker 1: and I just the fact we were a different age.
Speaker 1: You interpret that differently, Yeah, yeah, I just because I
Speaker 1: was able to say that to you and you kept
Speaker 1: your clothes on, which was really impressed. No, but it
Speaker 1: is true. I think we always had something together that
Speaker 1: was more than just necessarily what we were doing right
Speaker 1: at the time, because we have turned that into something
Speaker 1: positive and long term, which is really wonderful. Right. A
Speaker 1: lot of friendships I had that really there was a
Speaker 1: lot of drinking and drugs involved in They didn't survive
Speaker 1: as I got sober and years and eyes has been
Speaker 1: there through all those ups and downs of sobriety, of
Speaker 1: action of recovery, you know, the cycles of it have
Speaker 1: have survived. And why do you know, I'm not sure
Speaker 1: because I've had plenty of those types of relationships too
Speaker 1: that I would never have dreamed we're based on that,
Speaker 1: like drug use or something like that. I would have thought, oh,
Speaker 1: they would withstand stopping that, and I was wrong. So
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if I know truly why. Well, some
Speaker 1: of it I think is you do have an exceptional
Speaker 1: gift for friendship. Even though I know you think of
Speaker 1: yourself as isolated in a loner like, you have more
Speaker 1: people who want to be around you and with you.
Speaker 1: You have a circle of friends that is enormous. Again,
Speaker 1: you don't need, but but you just are naturally good
Speaker 1: at it. So I think that's part of the equation,
Speaker 1: is that you're naturally good at it. Yeah, I've kept
Speaker 1: a lot of friends for a very long time. It's
Speaker 1: kind of amazing. Yeah. Yeah, I have fewer friends. I've
Speaker 1: had them for a long time. Also, most of my
Speaker 1: friends I've had a long time, although I've met lots
Speaker 1: of people as i've done the show that I've started
Speaker 1: to build friendships with. You know, I don't know why.
Speaker 1: I think some of it is just unanswerable as to
Speaker 1: what causes a connection between two people. But I think
Speaker 1: partially there was a natural connection and a natural spark,
Speaker 1: and I think we've just made it important and we've
Speaker 1: talked about how important we are to each other and
Speaker 1: over the years and made a real effort. And so
Speaker 1: some of it I think is conscious cultivation and some
Speaker 1: of it is just the connection that for some reason
Speaker 1: we have with certain people and circumstances that bring us
Speaker 1: back together. And you know, I don't know, but starting
Speaker 1: the show was that was a conscious act of cultivation
Speaker 1: for me of like I want to be with Chris more.
Speaker 1: Chris is an audio engineer. So I think it's a
Speaker 1: little of soort. We think of the nature and nurture
Speaker 1: debate about things, and I would say, are you know
Speaker 1: what's made our friendships so special and so lasting? Some
Speaker 1: of it is nature, There was just an innate connection,
Speaker 1: and then some of it has been nurture. We've worked
Speaker 1: on it. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So do you
Speaker 1: guys remember like when and how you met? Trying to
Speaker 1: remember really specifically. No, I mean there was a core
Speaker 1: of friends that kind of all overlapped. Yeah, it's interesting
Speaker 1: because Chris and I went to the same high school,
Speaker 1: had very similar friends through high school, even went to
Speaker 1: a concert or two together. With that friend group, and
Speaker 1: I felt no connection to him, like we I remember.
Speaker 1: I think we went to Detroit once, and I know
Speaker 1: Steve would have been part of it. You were part
Speaker 1: of it. I was there. I mean, it's not that
Speaker 1: I didn't like you. I just didn't feel I just
Speaker 1: didn't know each other. There was no residence there. I
Speaker 1: felt no. And then somehow it was in the late summer,
Speaker 1: probably after we graduated from high school. I don't know
Speaker 1: what caused us to hang out together one time, and
Speaker 1: we did, and then after that it was like we
Speaker 1: were together every day for months. It's true, every day,
Speaker 1: Like it just went on and on and on from there.
Speaker 1: Super interesting is that you Yeah, definitely yep. And I
Speaker 1: do remember, yeah, going to a show. Did we also
Speaker 1: maybe go to the Replacements in Athens or was that
Speaker 1: a different forget what the Detroit show was, but I
Speaker 1: do remember that, Yeah, it could maybe it was in Detroit,
Speaker 1: it maybe it was. Maybe it was the Replacements in Athens.
Speaker 1: I just have a vague memory of walking down the
Speaker 1: street that were beating four of us. You were one
Speaker 1: of them, and just again just sort of a neutral feeling.
Speaker 1: We just didn't know each other. But then it's interesting
Speaker 1: you went to a concert and that's kind of where
Speaker 1: you guys came alive from one another. And music has
Speaker 1: been such a central theme, so important. That definitely was
Speaker 1: a big part of right when we met. I mean
Speaker 1: we're music fanatics. Yep, yep. I was thinking about that
Speaker 1: as I was listening to that playlist. How often the
Speaker 1: thing that we did together, the main activity that we
Speaker 1: did besides drinking, was you would pick up the guitar
Speaker 1: and we would We had just this small set of
Speaker 1: songs we would sing over and over together. So right
Speaker 1: from the beginning we were sort of performed, I mean
Speaker 1: not performing, because there was no performative aspect to it.
Speaker 1: It was just the joy of doing it, of doing it,
Speaker 1: and we did it. I just feel like we did
Speaker 1: it all the time, and it was my favorite thing
Speaker 1: in the world. We did do that a ton, and
Speaker 1: we would often be sitting in the same hallway. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the specific hallway Eric's apartment. That must have had good reaver.
Speaker 1: It had great. It sounded so good in there, Like
Speaker 1: even I singing, I thought, that's sound good in here,
Speaker 1: which just is not normally a thought I have. That's neat,
Speaker 1: that's neat to connect over a shared love of something,
Speaker 1: and that sounds like that's kind of where your friendship
Speaker 1: really started totally. Yeah, I would say a true shared
Speaker 1: love of music, certainly, a shared love of laughter, a
Speaker 1: very deep sense of human and then yeah, in the beginning,
Speaker 1: I think there was a deep love of of booze,
Speaker 1: and I think a deep love of recovery. Really like
Speaker 1: we have nurtured that together and talked about it a lot.
Speaker 1: And yeah, one has been there when the other wasn't,
Speaker 1: vice versa a little bit. That's right, that's right. There
Speaker 1: have been times I was in recovery you weren't. There
Speaker 1: were times you were in recovery I wasn't, and a
Speaker 1: lot of time where we both have been. Well, we're
Speaker 1: going to get to that for sure. We actually have
Speaker 1: a few questions that were submitted from our membership community
Speaker 1: on Patreon, and so I definitely want to ask those
Speaker 1: in it and it gets to the heart of recovery
Speaker 1: and addiction and your friendship. But before we get there,
Speaker 1: I'm just interested to hear Eric, what was Chris like
Speaker 1: in high school and then in these early years of
Speaker 1: your friendship, how would you describe him? Boy, I think
Speaker 1: in those early years The thing that I was struck
Speaker 1: with about Chris was he had a capacity to deeply
Speaker 1: appreciate eight things, Like he just all the time was like,
Speaker 1: this is awesome, this is great, this is you know,
Speaker 1: like I could just I mean even like orange juice
Speaker 1: and food. And there was just an ability to appreciate
Speaker 1: things that I certainly don't think I had at that age,
Speaker 1: and I certainly admired it. I looked at it and
Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, that's a really great trait. And
Speaker 1: so just being around him made everything else that we
Speaker 1: engaged in come alive for me in a way. And
Speaker 1: I think I've I think I learned that from Chris,
Speaker 1: and it's something I, you know, cultivate and we hear
Speaker 1: it in interviews we do with people over and over
Speaker 1: again about focus on the positive, focus on what's good
Speaker 1: in your life. You know, there are things that are negative.
Speaker 1: Of course, there's challenges in life, but there's lots of
Speaker 1: beauty and love and wonderful things in the ordinary things
Speaker 1: of life. And I think I learned that initially from Chris. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna pose the same question, you'd become a
Speaker 1: dark dead soul I was when you were just saying that,
Speaker 1: I was like, I should probably get some of that
Speaker 1: trade back. I do kind of think that way, even
Speaker 1: against all odds. In my darkest moments, I like, I'm
Speaker 1: aware of it. Even myself, I still have this like
Speaker 1: interest in the details of things and why is something
Speaker 1: really cool or interesting? I still notice it. When you
Speaker 1: eat you like you'll just be like, this is incredible.
Speaker 1: The second third of this bag of oreos is more
Speaker 1: delicious than the Chris that's not an entree. Okay, So
Speaker 1: I'm gonna pose the same question to you. So, how
Speaker 1: what was Eric like in high school and in these
Speaker 1: early years of your friendship? How would you describe him?
Speaker 1: I would describe Eric as really resourceful. That's what I
Speaker 1: was impressed with. Like, you had started that program, and
Speaker 1: I was aware of that at school, at the alternative
Speaker 1: program where you were, I was kind of aware of
Speaker 1: these things. But Eric had this energy, which, interestingly enough,
Speaker 1: you still have this ability to like tap into energy
Speaker 1: and get things done, which I always find really interesting
Speaker 1: because I'm definitely more low energy and less productive of
Speaker 1: a human being without the synergy of doing it with
Speaker 1: someone else. Yeah, and you always had that and still
Speaker 1: do that kind of driving force driving forward. Yeah in life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's interesting. Literally had it as a youngster. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: I love to recapture some of that energy. I still
Speaker 1: have it, but boy I had I definitely we were younger.
Speaker 1: I was fired up all the time. You really were.
Speaker 1: It was infectious. Yeah. I was gonna say that sounds awesome.
Speaker 1: I would like to have more of that. All right,
Speaker 1: So what do you think listeners may or may not
Speaker 1: know about, say Chris Eric that you think it's central
Speaker 1: to who he is? Well, I think listeners know far
Speaker 1: less about Chris than they want to as a whole.
Speaker 1: And I know Chris always thinks no it's not true,
Speaker 1: but very very frequent, like in emails to me, in
Speaker 1: comments and questions, they ask about Chris. You know. So
Speaker 1: I think even though you're you're not on the show
Speaker 1: a lot, you do the voiceovers, you're in some of
Speaker 1: the spots, you edit it. Your energy is in it,
Speaker 1: your spirit is in it. I think people want to
Speaker 1: know about Chris, and I don't think they know a lot.
Speaker 1: So there could be a ton of things. I think
Speaker 1: I'm much more known because I talk every week. So
Speaker 1: what what thing about Chris would I want people to know?
Speaker 1: What you think is just central to who he is.
Speaker 1: That when you think of Chris is like this is
Speaker 1: a kind of extraordinary or remarkable or unique to him.
Speaker 1: I think his sense of humor. Chris is one of
Speaker 1: the funniest people I know, and someone who consistently looks
Speaker 1: for humor and finds humor in things. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that is one of his central traits that anybody who
Speaker 1: knows him would say. And what about also, I will
Speaker 1: add his incredible talent musically, Yes, that is also central.
Speaker 1: Anybody who knows him would say that. Also. He is very,
Speaker 1: very gifted, has been from the beginning. I have been
Speaker 1: in awe of and frequently envious of that level of skill,
Speaker 1: natural just genius. That's true. It's true. Alright, you know
Speaker 1: what's coming. So what do you think listeners may or
Speaker 1: may not know about Eric that you think is es
Speaker 1: central to who he is. Oh, let's see, Well, I
Speaker 1: was actually going at. One of the things would certainly
Speaker 1: be that Eric is a great guitar player as well,
Speaker 1: And I don't think that gets exploited on the show,
Speaker 1: like people know that we play and write the music
Speaker 1: on there. But it's really interesting too, because you have
Speaker 1: developed it so far, like I remember you getting frustrated
Speaker 1: by it a long time ago, and as you were learning,
Speaker 1: it's been kind of interesting to watch, like you probably
Speaker 1: have lost sight of it a little bit of like
Speaker 1: look what you can play now compared to back in
Speaker 1: the day. Totally, I think. I think, because I don't
Speaker 1: think you ever really thought of yourself as being really
Speaker 1: good at it, but you are. And I don't think
Speaker 1: people know that. I mean, there's songs on there that
Speaker 1: you would not know which one of us is playing
Speaker 1: guitar if you didn't if we didn't know the other
Speaker 1: thing I think, and it may be obvious to some
Speaker 1: people since they know you better than me, is how
Speaker 1: tender hearted you are. Like I think you can watch
Speaker 1: something and completely be super affected by it emotionally, like
Speaker 1: someone doing something really sweet for somebody or something like that.
Speaker 1: You've always been that way too, which is kind of funny.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the Eric that I met, and it's
Speaker 1: still there, Like someone does something really nice and if
Speaker 1: you witness it, you're just so affected by it, which
Speaker 1: is wonderful. It's so true. He's I mean, brought to
Speaker 1: tears so easily. I also wonder if listeners know to
Speaker 1: how funny you are. Eric. I mean that's another thing,
Speaker 1: is like your sense of humor um and I think
Speaker 1: now that we're talking about it, clearly along with music,
Speaker 1: laughter and a sense of humor is completely something that
Speaker 1: you guys share. Have a comment. Yeah, I have felt
Speaker 1: if I have any like thing about the show that
Speaker 1: I wish was better or different was that more of
Speaker 1: that was captured. And the original vision I had was
Speaker 1: that Chris and I were going to interview people together,
Speaker 1: and I feel like there would have been a lot
Speaker 1: of natural humor in that. That doesn't come through as
Speaker 1: much when I'm interviewing people. It's there from time to time,
Speaker 1: and sometimes that depends on the guest and your interaction
Speaker 1: what depends on the guests. And it's harder to have
Speaker 1: a sense of humor over the internet when there's little
Speaker 1: bits of lags and you're trying to work on microphones.
Speaker 1: Like a lot of good humor, you sort of interrupt
Speaker 1: and play off each other and it just doesn't work
Speaker 1: in the same way. And often we're talking about semi
Speaker 1: serious things also of our humor and what we say
Speaker 1: would have to be either beeped out or with land
Speaker 1: us in prison, there's really good. Definitely a fair amount
Speaker 1: of it that that is not inappropriate, litterally inappropriate. For
Speaker 1: That's one thing you and I think have always had
Speaker 1: and shared was a belief that like nothing in life
Speaker 1: is off limits, absolutely, and I still think that, which
Speaker 1: always disturbs me about like cancel culture and stuff. If
Speaker 1: it's a comedian and you know, it's supposed to be
Speaker 1: only funny. To me, there's literally I can't think of
Speaker 1: anything that's off limits, right, Yeah. What has changed for
Speaker 1: me in that, um, although I still believe that anything
Speaker 1: is worth laughing at, and often laughter is one of
Speaker 1: the best ways of diffusing what really hurts and what
Speaker 1: really difficult, which you and I are also great at
Speaker 1: and together laughing at the dark side kind of makes
Speaker 1: it feel better. We definitely have a tendency to laugh
Speaker 1: at ourselves, you know, like we'll laugh at ourselves more
Speaker 1: than anything else. I think the only thing is changed
Speaker 1: for me around this whole idea of cancel culture and
Speaker 1: different things is I have become a little more sensitive
Speaker 1: to I never want my humor to hurt anyone, oh absolutely,
Speaker 1: And so that's the tricky part. And what I've started
Speaker 1: to learn a little bit is that even though my
Speaker 1: intention is never that something a joke or whatever would
Speaker 1: hurt someone, sometimes the way it lands might and I
Speaker 1: do have a responsibility to be careful there. But but
Speaker 1: I think within the bounds of Again I'm I'm not
Speaker 1: a comedian, so I think within the bounds of our
Speaker 1: personal laughter. I think anything is funny. You can find humor.
Speaker 1: It might even be pushing it further to make the
Speaker 1: other one left right, right, we know the spirit behind it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: whereas like a pro comedian, I think some of them
Speaker 1: adhere to this thing of don't make fun of something
Speaker 1: that somebody can't change. Yeah, that's which interesting rule. Yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure. You know. The other thing I think that
Speaker 1: really works about guys friendship is while you both have
Speaker 1: kind of an energy or like like energy in different ways.
Speaker 1: Eric has a sort of driving forward force in his life,
Speaker 1: and you have this enthusiasm about things like Eric is
Speaker 1: talking about about food or whatever, but you also, at
Speaker 1: the same time both have this incredible laid back nature
Speaker 1: about yourselves and then about one another that I think
Speaker 1: gives the other person room to like just be who
Speaker 1: they are or make mistakes or whatever without your friendship
Speaker 1: crumbling at the slightest thing, like you have this laid
Speaker 1: back nous about you that really wears well over a lifetime.
Speaker 1: Makes me think of sort of a joke in our friendship,
Speaker 1: but it's also based on reality. Is that in your addiction?
Speaker 1: When I hired you for two, if not three jobs,
Speaker 1: I can't remember what it is, and these were like
Speaker 1: professional jobs, and then I joke about this being the
Speaker 1: third and I had and I had to fire you
Speaker 1: from those jobs, you know, because you just essentially would
Speaker 1: not show up. You couldn't do it. And it's funny
Speaker 1: because I think about what what is it? Because I mean,
Speaker 1: it always reflected badly on me because I had somebody
Speaker 1: that I was reporting too and it was really difficult
Speaker 1: and painful. And yet somehow, like you said, there was
Speaker 1: a laid back nous where I was like, right, that's
Speaker 1: you know, like, well, I think that says something about YouTube,
Speaker 1: Like you know, I mean, doing a great job is
Speaker 1: one thing, but maybe also you're not going to get
Speaker 1: as as offended with jobs like that because you think
Speaker 1: a little larger than you know what those jobs were about. Right,
Speaker 1: And I think an ability to see in people beyond
Speaker 1: the difficulties they might be having which I do think,
Speaker 1: and having yourself you were less likely to judge harshly.
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. I mean I think another thing,
Speaker 1: not if I, you know, not to describe myself too much,
Speaker 1: but if I was to describe good qualities about me,
Speaker 1: I think one of them is that ability to sort
Speaker 1: of see beyond behavior to the person underneath and what's happening.
Speaker 1: And so you and I had enough history and background
Speaker 1: that I knew who you were. I just knew that
Speaker 1: you were not well at that time, and I was
Speaker 1: trying to help you. And that's often what those jobs
Speaker 1: were were an attempt to help and and it didn't work.
Speaker 1: It was like, okay, that didn't work. Yeah, we were
Speaker 1: able to roll off. But it is sort of a funny,
Speaker 1: funny thing that it is that I had to. It's
Speaker 1: a great story in retrospect, for sure. Speaking of great stories,
Speaker 1: do you guys have a favorite or one of your
Speaker 1: favorite memories of time together, something you did together, something
Speaker 1: that happened to the two of you together, just as
Speaker 1: you think back on your friendship, any kind of favorite
Speaker 1: memories that come to mind. I do. There's so many, though,
Speaker 1: Like you could ask on different days like that different
Speaker 1: things would come up. One of my very favorite memories though,
Speaker 1: is being at a very early water Boys concert with
Speaker 1: you and we met We went backstage or not backstage,
Speaker 1: back behind the show, and we met Mike Scott and
Speaker 1: just like sharing that, Yeah, well, another memory of me
Speaker 1: I was thinking about this, knowing that we might be
Speaker 1: asked this question. A favorite memory of mine of a
Speaker 1: later one was being at a water Boys show again
Speaker 1: exactly this time actually going backstage and hanging out because
Speaker 1: I had interviewed my we'd interviewed Mike Scott for the podcast,
Speaker 1: which was a huge moment for me personally because he's
Speaker 1: such an icon to me, and so since I interviewed
Speaker 1: him on the show, he invited us to go backstage
Speaker 1: and we spent an hour, hour and a half just
Speaker 1: hanging out with the water Boys. And on what a moment.
Speaker 1: That felt such an amazing moment, just so weird that
Speaker 1: we had met him, you know, and probably in nine
Speaker 1: or whenever that was. It was early the first time too,
Speaker 1: just a strange thing, you know, And now we have
Speaker 1: this podcast and this whole thing together, and here we
Speaker 1: are sitting in a room talking with him. It was
Speaker 1: a sort of full circle moment like bringing together so
Speaker 1: many things that mattered, and its very poignant for me.
Speaker 1: In fact, it book ended our relationships so nicely that
Speaker 1: it's been downhill from there ever since. Just kidding, it
Speaker 1: was the best moment and it's all you know. Another
Speaker 1: another memory I have, and we have a picture to
Speaker 1: show it is us being at the Community Fest in Columbus, Ohio.
Speaker 1: I think we were both on LSD. We were and
Speaker 1: we got into what still happens today, which is a
Speaker 1: laughing fit. But it was about a hundred degrees and
Speaker 1: we were in the back seat of someone's car and
Speaker 1: we just could not stop laughing. And there's a picture
Speaker 1: of us and we are like the color of tomatoes
Speaker 1: because we are laughing so hard and we and we're laughing,
Speaker 1: I think as I remember it just simply because it
Speaker 1: was so hot and we were joking about how hot
Speaker 1: it was, which is kind of typical that we would
Speaker 1: just pick something like that, and it turned into this
Speaker 1: rage this laughter. Yeah, that picture may end up on
Speaker 1: our website for this, I think, so possibly one of
Speaker 1: maybe a couple. We'll put a couple of pictures on
Speaker 1: the on the website. So yeah, we're gonna put some
Speaker 1: pictures linked to the Spotify playlist of some of our
Speaker 1: best friendship songs at our website, which you could go
Speaker 1: to it when you feed dot net slash friendship. All Right,
Speaker 1: So a couple more things before we get to our
Speaker 1: our member questions that I'm curious about. If you had
Speaker 1: to say, what would be a favorite thing that you
Speaker 1: guys do for each other? Like, what's something that you
Speaker 1: do for Eric and that you do for Chris that
Speaker 1: you think is really important, cool, special, lovely. Well, it
Speaker 1: used to change my guitar strings, which felt very very kind,
Speaker 1: but he has cast me off onto my own and
Speaker 1: it's a bandon me in this dark place. I might
Speaker 1: give you one guitar string change for old times sake.
Speaker 1: Since we're doing a friendship episode, I can answer, I
Speaker 1: can start. One of the things that Eric does for me,
Speaker 1: or my relationship with Eric does for me is it
Speaker 1: is just almost always really easy, Like I can have
Speaker 1: Eric over to be doing something like this, something official,
Speaker 1: or you could be coming in my house to play
Speaker 1: cornhole or something in the backyard, and it's just so easy,
Speaker 1: breezy to me. I almost never have felt stressed around
Speaker 1: you or anything. It's just something I really cherish and
Speaker 1: it's interesting to me, like we could talk about anything
Speaker 1: pretty much without it being a big, big deal. It's
Speaker 1: kind of hard to articulate. Now, I get it. I
Speaker 1: get it because he does have that kind of going
Speaker 1: back to like what I would describe as like this
Speaker 1: laid back energy or it's just giving people the space
Speaker 1: to sort of be who and where they are. Judgment
Speaker 1: free zone totally though. It's like absolute sort of acceptance
Speaker 1: and present without getting your feathers all ruffled about all
Speaker 1: the little things in life, you know. I think one
Speaker 1: of the things Eric does exceptionally well is he's aware
Speaker 1: of and really uh practices and restraint in the stories
Speaker 1: that he would tell himself about the other person and
Speaker 1: why they do what they do or they don't do
Speaker 1: what they do and you know, what makes them who
Speaker 1: they are. He really holds back from creating those stories
Speaker 1: or getting lost in those stories. And I think sometimes
Speaker 1: that can be such a complicating factor in relationships, is
Speaker 1: what one person is telling themselves about what the other
Speaker 1: person is doing or not doing, and then you just
Speaker 1: get all this like unspoken drama that may or may
Speaker 1: not even being true. Eric just sort of doesn't he
Speaker 1: just refrains. He just sort of lets people show up
Speaker 1: as they are without a lot of internal narrative on
Speaker 1: his part about it. That is really true. Eric is
Speaker 1: not in need of cognitive behavioral that's because Eric had
Speaker 1: probably years of learning that stuff. But allows other person
Speaker 1: not to be on guard all the time. It's like
Speaker 1: it allows the other person to sort of exale because
Speaker 1: that's just not something they have to tip too. Around
Speaker 1: with you, I would agree our friendship has definitely had that.
Speaker 1: I mean, what does Chris do for me um that
Speaker 1: we're willing to put out on the public. I think
Speaker 1: it's back to a couple of things we've already touched on.
Speaker 1: I think that being with Chris helps me appreciate things
Speaker 1: like listening to music. With Chris, we do it in
Speaker 1: this way together when we actually do it that we're
Speaker 1: sort of amplifying the enjoyment of it. So I think
Speaker 1: Chris for me amplifies my enjoyment of certain things and
Speaker 1: all the time reminds me to try and take myself
Speaker 1: and things less seriously. It's a levity which I think
Speaker 1: is a spiritual virtue, and Chris helps me do that.
Speaker 1: I think I have that capacity, but I think I
Speaker 1: often need a slight nudge in that direction, getting a
Speaker 1: little bit too serious occasionally. And I think Chris, uh,
Speaker 1: it's almost impossible to get too serious around Chris for
Speaker 1: very long. Yeah, it could be impossible to get very
Speaker 1: deep around me too. There are times that you're Humor
Speaker 1: is a defensive mechanism. I don't think it's a conscious employment, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm going to defend myself through humor, But I think
Speaker 1: it's a very natural thing that you do. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I think, like any of our strengths, if we if
Speaker 1: we play it too hard, if we use it too much,
Speaker 1: if we employ it in every situation, our strengths can
Speaker 1: become something that's problematic for so but largely it is
Speaker 1: a strength, and it's a It's a big part of
Speaker 1: our relationship. And I think, yes, we're joking and being silly,
Speaker 1: and but I've also always been able to actually go
Speaker 1: very deep with you. Yeah, back to that thing you
Speaker 1: know at eight team being able to say I love
Speaker 1: you to a male friend. I mean that was a
Speaker 1: plunging into the depths of experience right away that I
Speaker 1: think stands out to me now into some questions from
Speaker 1: our membership community. If you will. The first question comes
Speaker 1: from Joe. Joe asks, how do you shelter friendship from
Speaker 1: the work of working on creative projects? Well, it's definitely
Speaker 1: different this time, as we mentioned, since Eric has had
Speaker 1: to fire me twice before, it almost happened a third time.
Speaker 1: Probably it's a really good question, and I think we've
Speaker 1: sort of answered it a little bit before. But I
Speaker 1: mean when I say we almost had to do it
Speaker 1: a third time, you know, there was a period where
Speaker 1: you were struggling addiction wise and it got challenging. So
Speaker 1: I think it really is. That word that Joe used,
Speaker 1: shelter is a good one because I think there is
Speaker 1: a conscious effort to make sure the things stay separated,
Speaker 1: to realize, like, there's the work element of this, and
Speaker 1: there's a certain way that has to be conducted and
Speaker 1: things that have to do. And by I think by work,
Speaker 1: Joe's talking about a creative project together and we could
Speaker 1: say working together on anything as a creative project. Um,
Speaker 1: this certainly is. So there's a conscious effort to say, Okay,
Speaker 1: there's that element, and there's that part of our relationship,
Speaker 1: but then there's another element that has nothing to do
Speaker 1: with that. They're not connected a disagreement or a disappointment
Speaker 1: in the work relationship. You know, if I'm not doing
Speaker 1: something Chris wishes I was doing, or Chris is not
Speaker 1: doing something I wish I was doing, or you get
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. You know, when Chris is like I
Speaker 1: had to edit you again and you sounded like a
Speaker 1: moron um, at least in my mind, I consciously say,
Speaker 1: that's separate then the friendship. So you know, in times
Speaker 1: where like you know, go back to one of those
Speaker 1: jobs where I fire Chris, I was I got very
Speaker 1: clear in my mind, this is work related, but it's not.
Speaker 1: That does not say anything about our friendship. And I
Speaker 1: think we just talked about this a second ago about
Speaker 1: not making up stories and implying things. So I was
Speaker 1: able to go, all right, this work situation that is
Speaker 1: not working out, but it doesn't mean that Chris doesn't
Speaker 1: like me, respect me, care about me. There's like exactly,
Speaker 1: which I find so interesting because I hadn't even thought
Speaker 1: about it until you just read that question from Joe,
Speaker 1: Like even when you did fire me coming from the
Speaker 1: other end too, like you knew full well. I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's cool, I get it exactly. So we'd like that
Speaker 1: could have ended up some huge resentment or problem, and
Speaker 1: it just was really almost irrelevant, totally totally. It is
Speaker 1: interesting I tell that story sometimes when I'm working with
Speaker 1: coaching clients about you can actually do that, You can
Speaker 1: actually have parts of a relationship that aren't going right
Speaker 1: right without thinking that it says something about other parts
Speaker 1: of the relationship. We talk on the show a lot
Speaker 1: about stories and the stories we tell, so it would
Speaker 1: have been very easy for me to say, Chris doesn't
Speaker 1: care about me, he doesn't respect me, he's put me
Speaker 1: in this awful position he's but I just went, I
Speaker 1: don't think that's what this isn't about me, it's and
Speaker 1: I are really good at that type of compartmentalization. It's funny.
Speaker 1: This just brought up something that will tell really quick
Speaker 1: about compartmentalization. That a therapist of mine, who happens to
Speaker 1: still be my therapist, was I have known for a
Speaker 1: very long time, but I remember this huge problem that
Speaker 1: I was having with a girl, and which I think
Speaker 1: was just based on my behavior at the time. But
Speaker 1: while she was talking to me about and trying to
Speaker 1: be serious, I was eating a piece of pizza because
Speaker 1: we had just ordered food, and she was so mad
Speaker 1: that I was able to eat and enjoy a piece
Speaker 1: of pizza while she was destroying me and yelling at me.
Speaker 1: She couldn't get it. And it just makes me laugh.
Speaker 1: It just reminded me of that. But I remember bringing
Speaker 1: that to the therapist and she went along too, and
Speaker 1: he was and he drew a picture on a board,
Speaker 1: like on a chalkboard. Then he drew the exact same
Speaker 1: picture next to it around one for her. He just
Speaker 1: drew a frame and around mine he drew a grid
Speaker 1: of like hundreds of little squares as to how we think, Oh,
Speaker 1: that's so interesting. I just thought that was interesting. That
Speaker 1: is very interesting. Yeah, I love how that visually totally
Speaker 1: like summarized what you guys are saying. He's so good.
Speaker 1: He drew another picture for me yesterday, but I won't
Speaker 1: go into it just where I was like, oh, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I totally will you go into it. You would rather not.
Speaker 1: I think it would just take too long, it's not yeah,
Speaker 1: and it wouldn't be as relevant to this. But yeah,
Speaker 1: he's just he does really interesting stuff like that. And
Speaker 1: then I just take pictures on with my cell phone.
Speaker 1: Also about Chow's question, though, I think it's been less
Speaker 1: relevant doing this podcast together because we actually like it.
Speaker 1: I'm human. I'll complain about having to work or any
Speaker 1: of that stuff, but not much in regards to this.
Speaker 1: Like when I've been healthy myself, it's so rare I
Speaker 1: would find a reason to have some huge disappointment or problem,
Speaker 1: and certainly not with you, you know, So it's not
Speaker 1: as applicable anyway like it would have been the other
Speaker 1: jobs or something. Absolutely. Yeah, with the exception of that
Speaker 1: short period of time where you were really struggling it, it
Speaker 1: it has been so easy working together, Like we just
Speaker 1: were clear on who's doing what when we were doing it.
Speaker 1: You know, you're like clockwork, you know, I think we
Speaker 1: both are. We just we've put out a podcast episode
Speaker 1: every Tuesday for seven and a half years, yeah, and
Speaker 1: to to a week now. Yeah. So there's a certain
Speaker 1: amount of us working well together that it's very clear. Yep.
Speaker 1: And then Jenny and Nicole have added so much so
Speaker 1: it's incredible. I remember, though, when I kind of came
Speaker 1: into the picture, just really wanting to be sensitive to
Speaker 1: the fact that this had been you guys thing together,
Speaker 1: and I just did not want to insert myself into
Speaker 1: something that had been sort of sacred in just between
Speaker 1: you guys, that's what you said. But but I just
Speaker 1: also remember how much I appreciated Chris you being so
Speaker 1: like easy and open about me being involved and not
Speaker 1: being like territorial or like you know, any kind of
Speaker 1: like yeah, and we're never that way. Well, it was
Speaker 1: just it was great. It does. It does. Also. I
Speaker 1: remember some of my favorite things, like and especially recordings
Speaker 1: that I have where the ice broke, where you were
Speaker 1: first were over for stuff. We were all laughing things
Speaker 1: that will never get played sadly, Sorry listeners, there's things
Speaker 1: you will never hear. They were joking on microphones. It's true.
Speaker 1: Were you going to say something here? Before we moved
Speaker 1: to the next question, I did have a quick reflection
Speaker 1: on a previous question, and I feel like I can't
Speaker 1: leave out of this conversation as what has Chris given me?
Speaker 1: And Chris actually gave me I'm sorry, go ahead, one gift,
Speaker 1: a specific gift that changed my life, and it was
Speaker 1: Chris had a dog named Birdie. I used to hate
Speaker 1: dogs like I did, like not a little bit, like
Speaker 1: actively disliked them a lot. And Chris had a dog
Speaker 1: named Birdie. Who was so mild mannered, so sweet, so
Speaker 1: like just like us. She was just laid back, she
Speaker 1: just blended into what was happening. And I said to him, once,
Speaker 1: you know like a dog like that, I would have
Speaker 1: a dog like that maybe. And one day Chris called
Speaker 1: me and he said, I come over, I got something
Speaker 1: for you. And I show up at his house and
Speaker 1: I walk in and I see literally Birdie's twin, like
Speaker 1: it's like he cloned his dogs, sitting right there. And
Speaker 1: I mean at first I couldn't tell him apart. Now
Speaker 1: over time they became clearly and he said, here, I
Speaker 1: got you this dog. And I was like, excuse me,
Speaker 1: beg your pardon. Well, I did tell myself, if he
Speaker 1: doesn't want it, I'm a percent committed to keeping. But
Speaker 1: I saw this dog. I went to a Border Collie
Speaker 1: show and the rescue was there and I saw it
Speaker 1: and it was just incredible, and I was like, I
Speaker 1: had this hunch that you would take it. So that
Speaker 1: was Sadie. I took Sadie, and Sadie changed my life.
Speaker 1: I fell in love with her and um and with
Speaker 1: dogs in general. Right, it just opened up this like
Speaker 1: love affair I have now with dogs like, I was
Speaker 1: thinking about the great loves in my life, and I
Speaker 1: was thinking for this podcast, I was thinking, well, there's Chris,
Speaker 1: you know, there's my son, there's you, Jenny. And then
Speaker 1: I thought, dogs, they bring you so much joy. They
Speaker 1: bring me so much joy. So that was one thing
Speaker 1: Chris gave me that has been life changing. Yeah, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: next question from our membership community. So Katie asks, this
Speaker 1: is a kind of a two part question, So I'll
Speaker 1: read it all and then we can kind of split
Speaker 1: it up. She says, in my Psychology of interpersonal relationship class,
Speaker 1: we discussed how self disclosure is a huge part of
Speaker 1: what contributes to lasting friendship. I'm wondering if this is
Speaker 1: something you and Chris have experienced over the years. Also,
Speaker 1: what would you say makes you best friends as opposed
Speaker 1: to just friends? So which part of that question you
Speaker 1: want to questions? It is a good question. I feel
Speaker 1: like we need to look up self disclosure from a
Speaker 1: psychological standpoint. Does that mean, I mean, just to answer
Speaker 1: that act, do you know? I mean I think it
Speaker 1: just means sharing the parts of you that are hard
Speaker 1: to share, you know, being honest about who you are,
Speaker 1: the things you've done, what you feel, has that ever
Speaker 1: been something you guys have ever been conscious of doing,
Speaker 1: or in retrospect you see that you've done it and
Speaker 1: it's been incredibly I definitely see that we've done it totally. Yeah,
Speaker 1: probably from the get go. I mean there's always been
Speaker 1: an honesty there and kind of self effacing stuff a
Speaker 1: little bit where the other one could help. I mean,
Speaker 1: just the sobriety factor for me. Yeah, I think it
Speaker 1: was always there too. I don't know why or how, um,
Speaker 1: but I think it always was always back to that
Speaker 1: genesequa of the early question. Yeah, so I think it
Speaker 1: was always there. And then both of us being involved
Speaker 1: in recovery. You know, in recovery there is a real
Speaker 1: emphasis on you share what's going on with you, right,
Speaker 1: you know. So, so I think we had it naturally,
Speaker 1: and then it was sort of amplified by the things
Speaker 1: we were ended up being involved in and being driven to. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, you guys clearly have, Like if you think
Speaker 1: about this element of safety in your friendship, you guys
Speaker 1: are safe places for one another because of this. You
Speaker 1: know that there's a love there, you know there's an
Speaker 1: acceptance there, you know that nothing's off limits to laugh about,
Speaker 1: but not in a hurtful way. You know, you're able
Speaker 1: to sort of help each other bring each other out
Speaker 1: of sort of dark, heavy places. Some of our darkest
Speaker 1: moments are some of our funniest jokes too. At this point.
Speaker 1: There are things that we would laugh about, Oh, I
Speaker 1: mean totally. I mean one that we joke about a lot,
Speaker 1: and it was a really really dark moment for me.
Speaker 1: It was when I was in my previous marriage and
Speaker 1: it was really bad, and there were these fights and
Speaker 1: I just could not could not turn them off, you know,
Speaker 1: could not turn her off. And I'm not casting all
Speaker 1: the blame in that marriage on her, I shared equally,
Speaker 1: but her anger was one of the manifestations of what happened.
Speaker 1: And I just remember one time I was so frustrated,
Speaker 1: just out of my mind because I know what's coming,
Speaker 1: that I had a belt in my hand and I
Speaker 1: started hitting myself in the face with the belts. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, when I told Chris this story, he was howling, laughing.
Speaker 1: He's probably trying to You're probably trying to open up
Speaker 1: to me about this painful moment, and all you're getting
Speaker 1: back is laughter and eyes. But but it's you know,
Speaker 1: that's an example of you know, total self disclosure and
Speaker 1: um yet laughter. So we joke about that still to
Speaker 1: this day. If I'm frustrated, you'll be like, well, let's
Speaker 1: not get old belt face. Is this a belt worthy disappointment?
Speaker 1: Great Lord of the listeners of the show are like, well,
Speaker 1: I thought that I was to get other but clearly
Speaker 1: he's got some problems. Problems, all right, So so what
Speaker 1: about the second part of this question, which is what
Speaker 1: would you say makes you best friends as opposed to
Speaker 1: just friends. It's an interesting question. It's one I've thought about,
Speaker 1: I really have. I've thought about because in the lens
Speaker 1: of the fact that Chris has so many good friendships,
Speaker 1: but I would say that, you know, he thinks of
Speaker 1: me as you know, not in a ranking system, but
Speaker 1: a best friend. You know, it has the best element
Speaker 1: to it. And I've thought about why, like, what is
Speaker 1: it that has caused, you know, with someone like Chris
Speaker 1: has got so many friendships, you know that we would
Speaker 1: be best friends? And I have. I have a good
Speaker 1: number of friendships too, and I would say you are
Speaker 1: my best friend. Any other friends listening to this just
Speaker 1: settle down. It's just Chris many friends A long time no,
Speaker 1: no need to get upset, no need to get your
Speaker 1: feathers out. I don't know. I honestly do not know.
Speaker 1: I think we answered a little bit early here. I
Speaker 1: think there was a natural element to it, and then
Speaker 1: there just has been a nurturing of it and from
Speaker 1: the very beginning recognizing like something is special here. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And part of it could be like any relationship, longevity, geography. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it has always been available to us. The
Speaker 1: relationship gets the opportunity to develop. If you had stayed
Speaker 1: in California, it would be very different. You know, it
Speaker 1: doesn't mean we wouldn't be close, but it's certainly you
Speaker 1: know that's true. We would be erasing thousands of experiences
Speaker 1: that we've had together totally as we sit here right now.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting, is I contemplate geography in my future
Speaker 1: when Jenny's mom we don't have to go to Atlanta,
Speaker 1: if my mom is an anchor to me in Columbus.
Speaker 1: When I think about geography and going somewhere else, the
Speaker 1: thing that makes it feel almost impossible to leave is
Speaker 1: leaving you we have. I mean, one of the reasons
Speaker 1: we have prioritized and would prioritize staying here is because
Speaker 1: he has friendship, so it's worth staying for its Absolutely,
Speaker 1: it is interesting that I have theorized on leaving here
Speaker 1: sometimes even though I feel like I probably couldn't leave
Speaker 1: my mom and you know, family or whatever. Sometimes. But
Speaker 1: it's funny that one of the places I focus on
Speaker 1: and we never had discussed this just happens to be
Speaker 1: one of the places that you guys focused on two,
Speaker 1: which for me was New Mexico. Came up with that
Speaker 1: completely without ever discussing it with you guys. I always
Speaker 1: thought that was interesting that I was, Yeah, we should.
Speaker 1: I mean, let's get a ranch in New Mexico. All
Speaker 1: live on it together. We can have two separate houses,
Speaker 1: you and Nicole, you know, different Nicole from the show. Yes,
Speaker 1: his wife Nicole is welcome to I mean ar Nicole
Speaker 1: is welcomed. Yes, you'd like to. This is turning into
Speaker 1: a compound. We don't want to get weird anyway, retreats enter.
Speaker 1: Although the global warming, New Mexico may be difficult. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we've been thinking like Northern Canada might be the long
Speaker 1: term best long term. You know what's interesting I read
Speaker 1: this reflection about this idea of best friends, and I
Speaker 1: feel like it may apply to you, guys. This person said,
Speaker 1: it's not about exclusivity, but about years of stories, love
Speaker 1: and support that has granted us the highest honor of friendship.
Speaker 1: The right beautifully said, isn't that okay? Next question? But
Speaker 1: if you hang out with anybody more than me, I'm
Speaker 1: going to be really sound. It's funny, though, I have
Speaker 1: friendships with people where that element is there of you know, jealousy.
Speaker 1: It's interesting I had it early in our friendship. I
Speaker 1: was so enamored with you as a friend that I
Speaker 1: would feel jealous that that has past, you know, but
Speaker 1: not the enamored part, the jealous As I've matured, you
Speaker 1: sort of realize like you have other friends does not
Speaker 1: take away from our friendship. And so, but as an
Speaker 1: eighteen or nineteen year old, you don't necessarily know that. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what's funny is you became like, I'm from Columbus, but
Speaker 1: I lived in Athens for a long time, almost eight years.
Speaker 1: Maybe yeah, but like if I came here, why I
Speaker 1: didn't have to have that jealousy here because you were
Speaker 1: really the only person I want right whenever you were
Speaker 1: in town, and those were my favorite times, was my
Speaker 1: favorite times of the year when when you were in
Speaker 1: college in Athens and it would be break and I
Speaker 1: would be Chris's back. It was great because Ohio University
Speaker 1: is in Athens, Ohio are known as party schools, and
Speaker 1: it was really nice to come back and take a
Speaker 1: break from that. If you come back and get worse
Speaker 1: those questions from Grace, Grace asks I'd really like to
Speaker 1: hear how the friendship was affected and or changed as
Speaker 1: Eric worked through his addictions and became sober so many
Speaker 1: years ago. Well, I think to give that question it's
Speaker 1: full context, right, is that I got sober at stayed
Speaker 1: sober about eight years, drank again for a few years,
Speaker 1: got sober again, and had been sober for I don't know,
Speaker 1: fourteen years now, and Chris has a similar trajectory. I
Speaker 1: think you've got sober eight. I got sober the first time,
Speaker 1: ye so several years after me, and then I went
Speaker 1: ten years, although I drank the last seven of that,
Speaker 1: but not in in a super extreme way. But I
Speaker 1: was always a drug guy. So then I when I
Speaker 1: once I restarted that things really went nuts again. Then
Speaker 1: I got sober again. So how has it affected our friendship?
Speaker 1: It's interesting, I think when I got sober the first time,
Speaker 1: that was a big change because Chris was still pretty
Speaker 1: firmly in the world we had had inhabited for years,
Speaker 1: which was a world of lots of drinking, lots of drugs,
Speaker 1: and I was very much an enthusiastically newly sober person,
Speaker 1: like I was all fired up about it, and I
Speaker 1: lost a good number of friendships did not survive that
Speaker 1: initial transition. They just didn't survive. Chris is one that did.
Speaker 1: And I think it gets back to what we've talked
Speaker 1: about a little bit, which is that I let him
Speaker 1: be where he was, and he let me be where
Speaker 1: I was, and we still found the things that we
Speaker 1: did connect on. So a big part of our relationship
Speaker 1: had been drinking and drugs and that now was gone.
Speaker 1: But the other parts of the relationship, the humor, the
Speaker 1: allowing each other to be where they are, the love
Speaker 1: of music, those things were still there and we're still
Speaker 1: really solid. Yeah, And they're so solid. I think our
Speaker 1: relationship is way more interesting and fun when we're both sober, totally,
Speaker 1: which you probably could not have convinced me of two
Speaker 1: decades ago, totally not. And I think seeing each other
Speaker 1: go in and out of recovery and addiction, seeing each
Speaker 1: other at really low bad points and then seeing each
Speaker 1: other get better and get better together and share getting
Speaker 1: you know, recovery has obviously made you know, a great
Speaker 1: strengthening of the relationship for sure. You know, I just
Speaker 1: realized that I think one of the greatest things about
Speaker 1: being friends with it was when you were drinking and
Speaker 1: doing drugs. I always had either to be like, well,
Speaker 1: at least I'm not that bad. I'm just kidding. I
Speaker 1: was easily that bad in other ways. Yeah. It's funny though,
Speaker 1: because the second time when I was drinking, um that
Speaker 1: actually that story of your last night yeah out is
Speaker 1: one where I was like, I can't even keep up
Speaker 1: with that, and I feel like a complete season pro
Speaker 1: at this point. Yeah, and I had moments where, you know,
Speaker 1: one of the times I had to fire you from
Speaker 1: a job, I was using and drinking too, and I
Speaker 1: was able to look at you and I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm at least showing up for work for crying out,
Speaker 1: while like, I mean, you know, I got a job.
Speaker 1: This guy can't even show up, you know, like you
Speaker 1: have four hours a day. So yeah, we certainly, I
Speaker 1: think I had moments of of of reflecting each other.
Speaker 1: You know, boy, that guy's in trouble. That's so funny.
Speaker 1: All right. Kind of continuing in this theme of addiction
Speaker 1: in your friendship, So Christine asks, since you've seen each
Speaker 1: other through periods of addiction, I'm curious how you maintained
Speaker 1: a lasting and support of friendship during times when one
Speaker 1: person was engaging in self destructive behaviors. Here's her question,
Speaker 1: how can you signal you're there to help if needed
Speaker 1: in a way that doesn't seem judgmental or presumptuous. Boy,
Speaker 1: what a nicely phrased question. I almost feel like we
Speaker 1: know each other so well and see each other so
Speaker 1: often that the signal would be a given, It would
Speaker 1: be obvious, maybe, I think, so, I hope so. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, this is most alive for me with you,
Speaker 1: you know, being the one more recently who you know,
Speaker 1: went back through a period of addiction that got really
Speaker 1: dark and really bad and really trying to figure out
Speaker 1: the right way to relate to you. And I think
Speaker 1: anybody who has a friend, family member, a loved one
Speaker 1: who is in addiction wrestles with this question, what the
Speaker 1: hell do I do? How do I do it? You know?
Speaker 1: Is continuing to be your friend and act normal, you know,
Speaker 1: quote unquote enabling you should I set some like hard guidelines,
Speaker 1: you know, and so you never know the right thing
Speaker 1: to do. And I think I haven't gone through this
Speaker 1: just with you, gone through it with a lot of
Speaker 1: people that are friends, but with you. It's probably most
Speaker 1: poignant because it chokes me up to talk about it
Speaker 1: because I was worried that legitimately you could be gone.
Speaker 1: Sorry to put you through that. No, I mean I've
Speaker 1: done it too. It's it's okay. It's just you know
Speaker 1: when you realize that fact, and you can react to
Speaker 1: that in two ways. And we saw people in your
Speaker 1: life who reacted to that by trying to kicking and
Speaker 1: screaming to drag you to help. I took a different approach,
Speaker 1: which worked, which well, I mean, we never know what works.
Speaker 1: What happens. Is I think I do, like just because
Speaker 1: I was on the other side of it at that time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But I think I responded well to how you handled that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I responded really well, especially right at the
Speaker 1: very end. I was starting to be convinced, oh I
Speaker 1: can do this again, and I see it, I see
Speaker 1: why I should do it well. I think it's the
Speaker 1: approach of when I give advice to anybody who's in
Speaker 1: that situation, you've got to love to win, or a
Speaker 1: friend who's suffering from addiction, is you've got to start
Speaker 1: with how do you stay sane through this? Because the
Speaker 1: honest truth is, we have no idea what's going to
Speaker 1: get someone else sober. People have lots of ideas and
Speaker 1: theories about it. There's the tough love community that's been
Speaker 1: around for a long time that says, just you know,
Speaker 1: fortunate enough, consequences make their life hard. You know. I
Speaker 1: think more and more we're seeing that's not really the
Speaker 1: right approach. I mean, if if part of that is
Speaker 1: like having your wife constantly telling you, that might have
Speaker 1: worked a little bit for me, totally thats We just
Speaker 1: don't know what causes somebody to get sober, you know.
Speaker 1: So if you are a parent, you could say, well,
Speaker 1: my kid is using drugs, and I'm going to set
Speaker 1: a rule that they don't use drugs in the house.
Speaker 1: And then they do use drugs in the house, so
Speaker 1: I set a rule that says you now have to leave,
Speaker 1: and it is different for each individual. That might help.
Speaker 1: That could be the thing that drives that person off
Speaker 1: the edge. Right. So I think what I did was, first,
Speaker 1: how do I take care of myself and stay sane
Speaker 1: during this, and then secondly, how do I be as
Speaker 1: honest with you about what I'm seeing, what I'm feeling,
Speaker 1: my perspective and then let go of it. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: say Chris, I'm really scared. I'm really worried about you.
Speaker 1: I really care about you. I think this is really
Speaker 1: a problem, you know, not not gloss over it, not
Speaker 1: be afraid to talk about it, not bring it up,
Speaker 1: but also not have it become the only thing that
Speaker 1: our friendship is about. Right. I think that benefited me greatly,
Speaker 1: and just your calmness even in crazy. I won't even
Speaker 1: go into this here. I could tell you guys later.
Speaker 1: It might be too much detail on the microphone. If
Speaker 1: you're uncomfortable with it, then don't, but I think everyone
Speaker 1: would love to know details. Yeah. Well, I guess I
Speaker 1: could say it a little bit like there was a
Speaker 1: period and this is you know, drugs and really frequent
Speaker 1: and crazy use of drugs. But I remember you came
Speaker 1: over and I was like, I'm not giving it up.
Speaker 1: Like I had stuff in my pocket and I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go. You somehow convinced me to give it
Speaker 1: to you. But I was like, well, then I'm going
Speaker 1: to go do one more. And you actually met me
Speaker 1: halfway and you're like, okay, because you knew full well
Speaker 1: I could do what. You know, I could have not
Speaker 1: given that that to you and put in your hand either.
Speaker 1: You know that was hard to do, but it was
Speaker 1: hard for you to do too. That was within days,
Speaker 1: if not two days of me stopping too. I mean,
Speaker 1: that was a strange and difficult thing. So you're saying
Speaker 1: that that not only did he encourage you to like
Speaker 1: let go of some of what you had, but he
Speaker 1: also met you where you were. Ye kind of showed
Speaker 1: and understand it because I knew Eric had been there before. Like,
Speaker 1: I'm holding this little thing in my hand and it
Speaker 1: is so important to me, so to hand it to
Speaker 1: you and knowing that you're going to flush it down
Speaker 1: the toilet is a real problem. Right now, Did you
Speaker 1: still use and he was there when he waited outside,
Speaker 1: I went in. I did that, and that's one of
Speaker 1: the last times as far as I recalled. But I
Speaker 1: still kept drinking. And then yeah, but I was in
Speaker 1: treatment very shortly after that one. Why was that important
Speaker 1: for you? What did that do for us? Because it
Speaker 1: reminded me, well, it wasn't the other reaction that I
Speaker 1: was getting, like from my family and stuff, I think,
Speaker 1: which was that wasn't really working, just the anger and
Speaker 1: the outrage. I just don't think. I respond well, yeah,
Speaker 1: but it also reminked it kind of brought me to
Speaker 1: reality because I was not in reality. I was probably
Speaker 1: faking at best I could, but I was so whacked out.
Speaker 1: But it reminded me. I was like, oh, that's Eric,
Speaker 1: and he's been here before. It's those little reminders that well, yeah,
Speaker 1: you can stop doing this. You know, it's not insurmountable.
Speaker 1: Boy does it feel insurmountable during the moments though, But
Speaker 1: it's not. You know. What is coming up from me
Speaker 1: when I listened to you is like, when there's a
Speaker 1: lot of anger and other people kind of trying to
Speaker 1: kind of control what you're doing or not doing an addiction,
Speaker 1: it naturally, I think, drives you into a place of
Speaker 1: secrecy from them about what you're doing. But when there
Speaker 1: is what Eric was bringing in that moment, which was
Speaker 1: this balance of encouraging you to let go of this
Speaker 1: thing that you're doing while also being there with you
Speaker 1: as it happened in a pretty darn non judgment In
Speaker 1: a non judgment way, it sort of brought you out
Speaker 1: of that secret place, which kind of helped you come
Speaker 1: back to a moment of reality, right, Like it helped
Speaker 1: you come out of a secret place in yourself that's
Speaker 1: dark and into the light where there's there's someone else
Speaker 1: and there's there are things you can really come to
Speaker 1: terms with. And that's at least what I'm what's coming
Speaker 1: up for me when I hear that. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: know if that's how you felt. Probably, yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I'm not super clear minded on it, of course, but
Speaker 1: I do remember just that, you know, I think not
Speaker 1: being judged was big for me because I was being
Speaker 1: severely judged by most people, and justifiably it's a very
Speaker 1: terrifying thing to most people. Yeah, you know, that level
Speaker 1: of drug, right. Yeah. I think it's an interesting point
Speaker 1: about recovery and addiction in general. And I sometimes feel
Speaker 1: like a cliche of myself because they talk about the
Speaker 1: middle way so often. But even in recovery, there's in
Speaker 1: twelve step programs, there's this very clear you're in or
Speaker 1: you're out. If you're in and your sober, you're great.
Speaker 1: And if you're not, then we don't have I mean
Speaker 1: almost like like an a, a sponsor will fire you.
Speaker 1: They'll be like, I'm not gonna work with you because
Speaker 1: you're still drinking. So one of the best things about
Speaker 1: twelve step communities, and I don't want to put them
Speaker 1: down because they've saved my life twice, one of the
Speaker 1: very best things is the people understand you. You go
Speaker 1: in and you you hear people and you're like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, that's me. And you hear people articulating what
Speaker 1: was going on in your head that you never heard before.
Speaker 1: I've talked before about reading the n A book for
Speaker 1: the first time when I was in herro when heroin Addiction,
Speaker 1: and I just sobbed because I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: that's what's going on. That's what It's a great part.
Speaker 1: But what I found over the years is that a
Speaker 1: lot of people are are not in, and they're also
Speaker 1: not all the way out. They're somewhere in between. They're
Speaker 1: working on recovery. And I think what those people really need,
Speaker 1: and hopefully this is what I was able to give Chris,
Speaker 1: and I think people have given it to me is
Speaker 1: being able to be met where you are and encouraged
Speaker 1: in a certain direction, but also sort of understood and
Speaker 1: not judge and knowing like, okay, that's where you are.
Speaker 1: And as we've learned about science of change, we know
Speaker 1: that people go through stages of change, and there is
Speaker 1: a stage of change it's called pre contemplation, and then
Speaker 1: there's a contemplation stage, right, And a lot of people
Speaker 1: with recovery are in that pre contemplation and contemplation stage.
Speaker 1: And I don't feel like there's a lot of meeting
Speaker 1: people there or resources there for people, because if you
Speaker 1: go to a or a twelve step program, it's like
Speaker 1: full abstinence. Now boom, we've got to be all the
Speaker 1: way in. And again, I think there's a big gray
Speaker 1: area there and sometimes people need shepherded through that area.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that makes any sense. And there's
Speaker 1: always I mean some of a or maybe you could
Speaker 1: just say to alve step programs have that false pride
Speaker 1: that's really kind of dangerous, like it has to be
Speaker 1: this way, this is the only way. Some religions have
Speaker 1: that too, you know, and that can really turn people
Speaker 1: the other direction. I think it does. I think it
Speaker 1: does again. Twelve step programs save my life. There's so
Speaker 1: much good in them, and there is a like anything,
Speaker 1: it's that people are people. And what's interesting now, too,
Speaker 1: is that I think it a particularly has changed since
Speaker 1: you were in it heavily. It has definitely gotten a
Speaker 1: little less religious, or at least as an interpreted as
Speaker 1: frequently like that. There's a lot more of these kind
Speaker 1: of bohemian meetings that I go to. But there's also
Speaker 1: people that smoke pot, which would be unheard of back.
Speaker 1: There's people that smoke pot that go there for alcohol,
Speaker 1: you know, or other drug addictions, which I'm not going
Speaker 1: to say that's good or bad. It's it's very clearly
Speaker 1: not according to the Big Book of a not how
Speaker 1: to do it, but it has probably saved people's lives
Speaker 1: because pot won't kill you necessarily, whereas alcohol and you know,
Speaker 1: fatinil or anything else literally could kill you in a
Speaker 1: pretty short amount of time. Yeah. I mean, this topic
Speaker 1: is covered fairly extensively in the interview I did with
Speaker 1: Maya Satelets recently where we talked about harm reduction as
Speaker 1: a strategy, you know, and you know, you know, harm
Speaker 1: reduction really says, whatever we can do that reduces the
Speaker 1: damage that drugs and alcohol are doing in somebody's life.
Speaker 1: So abstinence maybe what that is. I mean that that's
Speaker 1: sort of like the ultimate harm reduction. You just take
Speaker 1: the thing completely away, but there's lots of stages in
Speaker 1: between there that people can find and exist in, and
Speaker 1: those are all positives. I think a mantra of harm
Speaker 1: reduction is any positive change, you know, which I think
Speaker 1: aligns a lot with things we talked about on the show.
Speaker 1: Little by little, a little becomes a lot, you know,
Speaker 1: take small steps. Yeah, that was a long answer to
Speaker 1: a questions. Those are great answers. I think what really
Speaker 1: strikes me is, you know, when it comes to it
Speaker 1: to a loved one in addiction, you know, we cannot
Speaker 1: control another person. We might love them, we might desperately
Speaker 1: love them and desperately want them out of where they are,
Speaker 1: but we at the end of the day, we cannot
Speaker 1: change them. And what we can do is love them,
Speaker 1: be present with them, encourage them, and then we we
Speaker 1: do have to just some degree, let the outcome go right,
Speaker 1: because the more we try and control another person, it
Speaker 1: doesn't work. People people, people try that all the time.
Speaker 1: I mean, we all do that in life all the time,
Speaker 1: and I've said it all the time, and that's like
Speaker 1: one of the big tenants of you know, therapy, is
Speaker 1: that you really can't control anything. You can only control
Speaker 1: your reaction to it. And people constantly, including me, forget
Speaker 1: that I want to control that. You know, it's hysterical,
Speaker 1: that absolutely and all this reminds me of a quote
Speaker 1: that I love. I have no idea who said it,
Speaker 1: but it said, when you realize how hard it is
Speaker 1: to change yourself, you realize the utter impossibility of changing
Speaker 1: someone else. And I mean, I think that's a really
Speaker 1: good thing to reflect on, is like how hard it
Speaker 1: is for us to change something, even when we want to.
Speaker 1: Having someone else change it doesn't work. But you can
Speaker 1: be supportive and you can be encouraging, and like, you
Speaker 1: can be honest. You know, a tendency I had when
Speaker 1: you were going through all that was to not want
Speaker 1: to talk about it. Yeah, it was to not want
Speaker 1: to bring up what you were doing and what was happening.
Speaker 1: And so again I tried to find that middle ground
Speaker 1: of let me say what I'm feeling and thinking, let
Speaker 1: me not be dishonest, but not make it all about that, um,
Speaker 1: and I think the other thing that I did, and
Speaker 1: then we can move off this topic. Was I thought.
Speaker 1: As I was thinking about what if you don't make
Speaker 1: it and you're not here, I thought about, how will
Speaker 1: I want to have acted? Yeah, that I can live
Speaker 1: with that when it's over. You know, obviously I'm gonna
Speaker 1: I would be devastated and heartbroken. But will I be
Speaker 1: able to look at what I did and feel like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you know what I did what I could that's hugely
Speaker 1: important without involving belts anyway, No belts were used, No,
Speaker 1: but you know what you did? Eric? Is you This
Speaker 1: gets back to your other point, which is I think
Speaker 1: central is you do have to sort of say, how
Speaker 1: can I stay saying? How can I stay saying in
Speaker 1: the midst of this, not only now but later, how
Speaker 1: can I take care of myself? How can I uh
Speaker 1: not have this take over my life? How can I
Speaker 1: continue to live my life in a way that has
Speaker 1: integrity and has you know, is healthy, Um, both now
Speaker 1: and later while also being there, being present, being honest,
Speaker 1: being accepting, and being loving not judgmentally of the other person. Yeah.
Speaker 1: One of the hardest things in life is to have
Speaker 1: people you love engaging in behavior that you think is
Speaker 1: harmful to them. I mean, whether it be something like
Speaker 1: somebody's in a full blown addiction, or it be your
Speaker 1: spouse smoked cigarettes, or they eat hamburgers every day, or
Speaker 1: it's any behavior that you can look at and we
Speaker 1: can sort of objectively say, well that's not healthy. People
Speaker 1: can get so wrapped around that that that has to
Speaker 1: change and it's all they see. And so again it's that, yes,
Speaker 1: this is important, this is part of it, but there's
Speaker 1: a whole lot more surrounding this, and there's a lot
Speaker 1: of other wonderful things about that person that are still here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that actually brings us to our last question here from
Speaker 1: a listener, Vanessa asks, were there any difficult conversations around work?
Speaker 1: Some things I could possibly think of are like things
Speaker 1: like finance or boundaries or different perspectives about a topic.
Speaker 1: And if they're is how did you overcome them while
Speaker 1: still keeping friendship, nourishing and thriving. So I think what
Speaker 1: you're saying is a piece of that, at least from
Speaker 1: what I've heard, is like, it's not the only thing.
Speaker 1: They're still keeping a context and a perspective of like
Speaker 1: all that there is involved here, not just one difficult part,
Speaker 1: but anything else come to mind as I read that question.
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever felt difficulty personally. Maybe you have, though,
Speaker 1: but you've had to control a lot more of this. Also,
Speaker 1: like I said, like this is more of a like
Speaker 1: a passion project to even though it had to become
Speaker 1: our jobs or it couldn't have continued probably on the
Speaker 1: level it has. But yep, there are real pros and
Speaker 1: cons to working with people you love. I mean, the
Speaker 1: pros are obvious, right, You're involved in creating something, doing
Speaker 1: something with people that you love being around and spending
Speaker 1: time with. So I mean there's an obvious pro and
Speaker 1: it's beautiful. The con is when things don't go as
Speaker 1: well and the other person isn't living up to or
Speaker 1: doing or agreeing with you have a different perspective on
Speaker 1: how to do things, or so all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: I think we've covered this fairly extensively, is all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, you've got a difficult conversation to have. And
Speaker 1: I will avoid a difficult conversation if at all possible.
Speaker 1: I do not like it, even with someone like you
Speaker 1: that I know it's safe to do. I don't like
Speaker 1: to do it. I have a deep fear of it.
Speaker 1: I know where it comes from, I know why it's there.
Speaker 1: But I've also learned that if you don't do that,
Speaker 1: it's a real problem. And earlier in my life I
Speaker 1: did things. I have a tendency to like, get a
Speaker 1: great idea, be excited, and recruit my friends, and I've
Speaker 1: had times over the years where that hasn't gone well.
Speaker 1: When I was younger, I don't think I had the
Speaker 1: capacity to do what we've talked about, which separate those things,
Speaker 1: and to be able to say, Okay, I'm gonna have
Speaker 1: the difficult conversation. I'm going to talk about what's going on,
Speaker 1: but I'm also going to keep the relationships separate. And
Speaker 1: what I've learned is not having those conversations is much
Speaker 1: more damaging than having them, because resentment builds, you know,
Speaker 1: resentment builds, mistrust can build. All sorts of things build,
Speaker 1: and so not only does the relationships suffer, the business
Speaker 1: or projects suffers. It's hard to do, but it's essential,
Speaker 1: and so for me, I just I recognize I don't
Speaker 1: want to do this, I'm afraid to do it. Then
Speaker 1: I think about, Okay, I'm I need to do it.
Speaker 1: Am I going to do it? Yes? Okay, I decided that,
Speaker 1: and then I work on getting up the courage and
Speaker 1: thinking about what I'm going to say, and then the
Speaker 1: thing that helps me actually do it. What we have
Speaker 1: a tendency to do with these is be like, I'm
Speaker 1: going to pick the right time. I've learned to ask myself, like,
Speaker 1: is there ever going to be a good time to
Speaker 1: have this conversation? I remember this in my opinion, is
Speaker 1: the good time only for you? Or is it for them?
Speaker 1: Because she couldn't decide for someone else what's the right time?
Speaker 1: Is that's exactly right? And and then you get into
Speaker 1: like I mean, I remember this in my previous marriage,
Speaker 1: which was difficult. As I've said, I'd be like, all right,
Speaker 1: I need to bring this difficult thing up, but I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna bring it up right now because she's in
Speaker 1: a bad mood to not do it. And then it'd
Speaker 1: be like, oh, she's in a good mood. I don't
Speaker 1: want to ruin the good mood, you know. So it's like,
Speaker 1: so what I've realized is I asked myself, is there
Speaker 1: ever going to be a good time to do this?
Speaker 1: Or am I ever going to want to do it?
Speaker 1: And if the answer to that is no, then I
Speaker 1: try and do it as fast as I can from
Speaker 1: that point forward because it minimizes the amount of time
Speaker 1: I have to dread it. Yes, which is a big
Speaker 1: change for me when I was younger, where I simply
Speaker 1: couldn't do it and that never went well. Anything come
Speaker 1: up for you, Chris, as you're thinking about this topic
Speaker 1: or listening to what he says, you know, I kind
Speaker 1: of lost sight of what that was all about. But
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, I mean they wandered for forty
Speaker 1: minutes again, and no, no, it wasn't that. I think
Speaker 1: what I started thinking about was this way. I don't
Speaker 1: know how I got on this. I think because I
Speaker 1: started thinking about, as you were saying all that, that
Speaker 1: sometimes just moving forward without all the analyzing ahead of
Speaker 1: time is the most absolutely beneficial thing. And then it
Speaker 1: my mind wandered towards the end there because I was like, God,
Speaker 1: I was thinking about this window I had to replace
Speaker 1: at one of my rental properties. And I thought about
Speaker 1: this for a solid six weeks, almost two months, and
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I can't believe I have to do this,
Speaker 1: and all these stories I had made up about it
Speaker 1: and how it was going to go, and one day
Speaker 1: I just it just finally collect and I went and
Speaker 1: did it. And I'm not kidding. I think I went there,
Speaker 1: measured it, went to a place, bought the window. Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, they have the exact size. How could that be,
Speaker 1: as if there's that many windows in the world, and
Speaker 1: you know they somewhat standardized, went there, put it in.
Speaker 1: I don't think it was an hour and a half.
Speaker 1: I had done this nearly professional off, but I was
Speaker 1: exhausted from six weeks of thinking about it. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's all that reminded me. I could totally relate to that, though,
Speaker 1: I mean, how often we do that? I mean yeah,
Speaker 1: and sometimes not for that long, right, but we just
Speaker 1: just little things around the house, so totally Yeah. So well,
Speaker 1: I think that just about wraps it up. Guys. This
Speaker 1: was This was so much fun for me anyway to
Speaker 1: get to do. I hope it was fun for you guys.
Speaker 1: It was totally fun. I hope it was interesting to
Speaker 1: the listeners. I always, you know, worry about being self indulgent. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm worried about that too, well, at least from my perspective.
Speaker 1: It was so edifying and so fun, and it's also
Speaker 1: just so touching Gull's friendship. And I'm just really grateful
Speaker 1: that we were able to have this opportunity to sit
Speaker 1: down and sort of explore it together. So thank you
Speaker 1: so much. Thanks you guys, me too, and I love
Speaker 1: you Horsey, love you too. We should say that horses
Speaker 1: a variation of the word horse. Horses a nick name.
Speaker 1: Here name a long term nickname. Oh yeah, we never
Speaker 1: did discuss horse is the most common. Probably there's all
Speaker 1: kinds of other inappropriate horse, but horse sack is a
Speaker 1: common one. And on that note, we'll fade it out.
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