WEBVTT - State of Ohio vs. George Wagner IV 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.920 The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:09.240 themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.160 because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.400 He just walked around shot all the black people. The 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.440 cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.160 out how to go on and how to compete. I 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.840 wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:28.640 Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.720 or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.800 I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.200 it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.560 a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.040 to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:53.239 Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:58.080 this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:00.560 I would call him and I would say, I know 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.040 you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.440 Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:11.840 get your podcasts. Hi, it's Elvis Duran on my new podcast, 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:14.720 Thinking out Loud with Elvis Duran. I'll be bringing you 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:17.600 candid and maybe sometimes a little crazy interviews with people 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.120 from all walks of life. We'll touch on subjects that 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:23.919 you just can't talk about on the radio, like life, love, success, failure, 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:26.319 or whatever else comes to mind, but all jacked up 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:28.520 because after being in this business for as long as 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:30.200 I have, I want to get to the bottom of 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:32.960 what makes people tick. And listen to my new podcast, 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:37.600 Thinking Out Loud on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:42.520 wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's me Isaac MS 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:45.480 Rahi and oh my god, we have such a special 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:49.640 guest coming up on Hello Isaac. It's the fabulous Andy Cohen. 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.280 He's here to talk to us about all the stuff 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.560 you want to talk to Andy about and Darling's That 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:59.440 episode is coming out on Monday, July thirty. First listen 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:03.440 to Hello Isaac on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:11.960 get your podcasts. This just in today. Attorneys for George 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:14.799 Wagner the Fourth Sake there is proof he did not 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:18.880 kill any of the eight victims and therefore could avoid 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:22.480 the death penalty. Judge Randy Deering heard an impassioned plea 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:25.800 from George Wagner's attorney, who said his client never pulled 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.080 a trigger on the night eight members of the Rodent 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:32.480 family were killed execution style. The state made a deal 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:36.520 with the devil. Basically, so far, Edward Jake Wagner and 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:39.960 his mother Angela Wagner have confessed to prosecutors and have 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:43.600 agreed to testify against the rest of the family. George 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:46.760 and Billy Wagner are still going through the court process. 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.720 The trial has been sent for April of next year. 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:55.079 This is George Wagner's defense attorney talking about Jake Wagner. 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:58.400 He's the person that is most responsible for this. He's 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:00.959 the actual killer. He's the actual He's the one that 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:02.720 snuck into these homes in the middle of the night 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:05.399 and shot the victims in the head. All right, Our 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:09.080 client didn't shoot anybody anyway, says we made a deal 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:12.679 with the double unfortunated window in this case, and that 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:15.680 is all four of the individual two are charged in 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:24.679 this This is the piked In massacre Returned to Pike 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:30.639 County Season three, Episode four, State of Ohio Versus George 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:36.640 Wagner the Fourth I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:41.160 KAT Studios. With Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane, with both 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:44.560 Jake and Angela taking plea deals. The possible outcome of 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:48.240 George Wagner's child seems, on the surface limited in scope. 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.040 It is anything but that the defense is trying to 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:56.800 position themselves to win the case by limiting what evidence 0:03:56.840 --> 0:04:00.680 will be admissible through a series of motions. Each motion 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:03.200 involves a request to the court by the defense to 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:06.920 make a decision on a specific issue before the trial begins. 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:14.160 Here's retired prosecutor and Flanagan. If you look at any trial, 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:17.359 it is the state that has to put out everything. 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.320 It's like throwing a party and you're the host or 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:23.479 hostess and you have to have everything ready. Well, you 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:25.680 might have a guest on the other side who's going 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:27.320 to come and say, well, you didn't get yes, you 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:29.960 didn't do this, you didn't do that. So all they 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:32.880 have to do is whittle away at the state's witnesses 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:38.320 and evidence. It's up to the judge to make a 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.800 decision on each of these changes. In this episode, we're 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:45.200 taking a deep dive into George Wagner's pre trial and 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.400 how these motions could radically change the outcome of the trial. 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:53.040 Two motions eighty and eighty one have been introduced specifically 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:56.440 to keep evidence off the table for a capital murder 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:59.400 case like George's. It could mean the difference between life 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:03.640 and death. And as we'll find out, even with their 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:06.440 plea deals in place, it could affect whether Jake and 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:11.200 Angela reopen themselves to the death penalty. The first motion 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:15.640 will discuss is eighty one. Here's journalist Angeanette Levy, followed 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:19.080 by criminal attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen. They're both 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:23.440 speaking with producer Chris Graves. On January tenth of twenty 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.919 twenty two, the defense for George Wagner filed motion number 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:31.080 eighty one, and it was a motion to suppress audio recordings. 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:34.040 And the thing they're taking issue with in this motion 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:37.360 is the fact that apparently DCI agents and other law 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:41.839 enforcement involved in this case placed listening devices in a 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.240 truck that was driven by both George Wagner and Jake 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:50.520 Wagner before the Wagners were arrested in twenty eighteen. Hundreds 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:55.840 of hours of audio were recorded by Ohio BCI. I'm 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:58.240 looking at this and I'm thinking to myself, what on 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:01.960 earth could be so damning in these recordings. There may 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:04.520 be nothing, or there may be something. I don't know. 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:07.760 This is all speculation at this point, but there might 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:11.599 be something that George incriminated himself on that they're trying 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:14.919 to suppress. Right, there would have to be, or they 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:17.599 wouldn't go to the problem to file the motion, no 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:21.200 question about it. Defense counsel wants something with respect to 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.680 those statements thrown out. We just don't know what it is. 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:28.359 So in your mind, George or someone in his cab 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:36.279 or on some conversation possibly incriminated the family. Absolutely, absolutely, 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:38.920 they wouldn't be going through all this if that weren't 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:44.560 the case. To obtain the recordings, homicide detectives had to 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:49.240 gain physical access to Georgia's truck. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:52.920 I think there's a really big piece to the puzzle 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:56.200 here about why are tapping and bugging, and there seems 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:58.440 to be some sort of a difference between the two 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:02.680 that is now really a big piece of George's defense. 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:06.360 Wire tapping and bugging, I think often get confused, and 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:09.359 you see wire tapping and bugging a lot in movies 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:13.120 and TV shows, but it's actually a little more nuanced 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:16.040 than what you see on the screen. So how wire 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:19.320 tapping works specifically is that you need to get permission 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:22.600 from a phone company to tap into the cell transmission tower. 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:25.480 And back in the old days, what you would see 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:28.560 done in the movies is cops literally clipping wires to 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:30.800 the phone line in the basement or something like that. 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:34.280 But now it's all done remotely electronically, so in conjunction 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:36.920 with the warrant served to the cell phone provider, officials 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.400 are able to do it from the comfort of their office. 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:44.760 Bugging literally is this transmitter with a microphone that needs 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:48.800 to be planted someplace physically in a space where authorities 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:51.800 would want to pick up conversations, which is, by the way, 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:55.200 very interesting because they have to go through a very 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.320 layered process to be able to get permission to bug 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:05.760 a vehicle. Bugging is much more invasive because you're actually 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:09.880 able to record private conversations in someone's home or their car, 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:12.320 and in this case, they were able to get all 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:15.840 types of conversations that George Wagner was happening, so law 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:20.680 enforcement was apparently able to listen to and remotely record 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:24.960 everything that was said in that truck. Twenty four to seven. 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:30.960 I mean in person conversations, phone conversations, and even mister 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:38.040 Wagner talking to himself. The defense is claiming that the 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:42.480 recordings are inadmissible for a number of reasons, many pertaining 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:45.079 to the fact that it was George's truck that was bugged. 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.040 The case of the bugging is slightly complicated as it 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:52.840 applies to the Wagners because what the BCI bugged was 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:56.319 not George's vehicle. It was the truck that he used 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:59.800 for work, So he didn't own this big rigged truck. 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:04.400 It was his employer's truck, and so presumably the BCI 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.240 was given permission to access the vehicle from the employer 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:11.280 and planted the bug when George was not with the truck. 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:14.800 The type of truck George would drive is a typical 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:17.560 semi that you see all over the country on the highways, 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:20.560 and so the semi has a sleeper cab in the back, 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.000 which is where the drivers go to take a rest, 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:27.080 relax sleep for the night. So Ohio BCI agents put 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:29.839 the bug in the sleeper cab portion of the semi truck. 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:32.760 And this small detail is one of the four things 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:36.440 the defense is using to get the motion dismissed. There 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.760 could be an issue with that because that sleeper cabin 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:43.880 on the semi could be analogized to being someone's home, 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:48.080 and you know, for all intention purposes, it probably was 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:52.600 when mister Wagner was on the road, and the house 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:56.640 is the most constitutionally protected thing that there is, So 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:01.559 there might be a potential problem there with the authorization itself. 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.640 Because the truck was both not owned by George and 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.160 served as the sleeping quarters, the defense may argue it 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:12.400 is similar to bugging a hotel room. We also know 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:16.560 that Jake was in the truck as well. At some point, 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:18.880 the two brothers were alone for hours or even days 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:21.600 on the road and what they assumed was a completely 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:25.160 private setting. That really does speak to the question of 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:30.560 assumed privacy and conversations that may have happened between Jake 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:34.960 and George. Allegedly, those conversations are probably very relevant for 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.280 this trial. So the fact that the defense wants to 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:42.120 question that speaks more to what they're potentially hiding. Here's 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:46.600 Judge pat Dinka Locker. This is interesting because we don't 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:50.560 get bugging cases wire tapping cases much. When I looked 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.240 through this, I thought to myself if they had an 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:56.800 expectation of privacy, the two of them, okay in the 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:02.240 state illegally vid that then this is the proper motion 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:04.880 that the judge could grant, say that they're not allowed 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:12.120 to bring those audio recordings into evidence. Here's Judge Sylvia Hendon, 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:14.720 who works as a visiting judge out of the Ohio 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:18.400 Supreme Court. It's a violation sixth Amendment. We see that 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:22.079 all the time. You have an expectation of privacy. Does 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:27.480 your expectation of privacy increase if you're in a sleeper 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.480 cab truck versus a regular cab truck. I don't know 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:35.040 the answer to that, But again, speaking from an appellate perspective, 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.600 I can tell you that whichever way Judge during goes 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:42.360 on this, it's going to be an issue. I believe 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:45.400 in the event of an appeal, I would have to 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:48.680 believe that that motion to suppress is going to loom 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:51.720 large in the Court of Appeals. In the event of 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:54.560 a guilty finding, I will be very interested to see 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:59.160 his ruling. If I'm employed by somebody, even if I'm 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:02.400 sleeping there, I wouldn't think that I walk into a 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:05.960 building or an entity owned by somebody else that's employing me. 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:08.760 I wouldn't think that I would have an expectation of privacy. 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:13.960 Here's former BCI homicide investigator Seth Hageman testifying in court. 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:17.559 He oversaw the creation of the warrants for the Wagner case. 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:23.240 So when you're installing devices, you need a search warrant 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:26.320 in the county where you're going to install the device 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:30.280 correctly and specifically, you're talking about the search warrant that 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:35.559 was installed in the RNL truck, correct that both the defendant, 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:39.160 George Wagner and his brother Jake Wagner drove in tandem. 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:44.240 Correct To get approval to bug or wire tap, investigators 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:47.200 must adhere to an even stricter protocol than a standard 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:51.720 search warrant. They must also produce what's called an interception warrant. 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:57.199 Interception warrants are inherently scrutinized to a greater degree because 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.520 of the privacy issues that they raise, and they're very 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.800 specific statutory requirements of other things in addition to just 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:06.240 the normal probable cause of the search warrant. That needs 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:08.840 to be addressed among those is not only do I 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:11.200 have to show there's probable cause that a crime was committed. 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:13.319 You have to show that there is probable cause that 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.840 a specific person or person's committed that crime. You actually 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:19.839 have to show that you've exhausted other methods of investigation 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:22.480 that were less intrusive prior to applying for that, and 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:24.880 so those are the different steps that make it more 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:30.440 complicated in a much more difficult process to obtain. Hageman 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:33.560 an Ohio BCI felt that after months of the investigation 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:37.079 they had grounds to successfully lobby for an interception warrant. 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:41.800 During the investigation, Inspector Hageman put together a lengthy report 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:45.000 and submitted it for approval of an interception warrant to 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:49.040 bug the Wagners truck. The warrant was approved, giving homicide 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:51.680 a period of thirty days to monitor the truck once 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:55.560 the bug was installed. The state played it one hundred 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:59.359 percent by the book, but the prosecution's case is complicated 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:03.120 by the fact Ohiobci coordinated the bugging of George's truck 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:06.319 with his employer, and the defense has raised this as 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:11.199 a second point of contention in their motion. Here again 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:15.360 reporter Angrenette Levy, followed by attorney and legal analyst Mike Ellen. 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:20.840 The defense is saying this basically violated George's rights because 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.480 the owner of the truck allowed it to happen and 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.200 he had an expectation of privacy. But I'm not really 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:30.600 sure you have an expectation of privacy in a truck 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:37.040 that your employer owns. Apparently the owner consented to the bug, 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:40.760 but it's a case of where the owner is actually 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:45.360 acting as the government's agent and authorizing that, and there 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:51.400 could be problems with that. It probably would be upheld. 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.720 You know. It all depends on what the cops probable 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:57.840 cause for the search warrant to do that would be, 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:00.960 And I think that's one of the sticking points on 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:06.400 this one. There is a third complicating issue for the prosecution. 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:12.120 Much of the audio was recorded across state lines. Would 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.960 any statement that is given outside of the state of 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:20.360 Ohio be valid under that warrant? Now I don't have 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:22.960 the warrant, so I don't know for sure, but I 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:26.720 think that's going to be questioned as well. Usually warrants 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:31.040 are just limited to the geographical jurisdiction, and in this case, 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:33.480 it'd be Pike County and or the state of Ohio. 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:36.800 But let's just say he said something incriminating in Tennessee. 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:39.840 I don't know. I mean, there may be problems with 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:45.600 that too. If it was a federal warrant, then they'd 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:48.840 be okay, but a state warrant they might have some 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:53.160 issues with that. I've not researched it. I've never encountered 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:57.280 it ever as an attorney, law student, whatever, But it's 0:15:57.280 --> 0:15:59.960 an issue that if I were defense counsel, I'd be 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:06.680 pursuing it. The defense also claims that the investigators on 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:10.400 the case tried to lead the Wagner brothers into incriminating themselves. 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:13.720 They talk about in the motion that they were trying 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:19.480 to stimulate incriminating conversation by initiating the contact, and that 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:23.400 could be problematic for the government too. I mean, if 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:28.280 a statement is freely and voluntarily given, then there's no 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:32.200 problem with it. But if the government induces someone to 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:37.160 make a statement, that could be problematic. What I also 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:40.000 thought was very interesting about this was the fact that 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:43.200 police would actually put things out on social media in 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:47.680 hopes that one of the Wagners, or specifically Angela Wagner 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:52.040 accused killer Mom, that she would see these posts and 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.640 that would maybe stir up conversation that they would then 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:59.160 have with each other, and then those conversations would be bugged. 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:02.640 This is actually called tickling the wire, and tickling the 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:05.240 wire means that the Feds have wire taps in place 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:09.800 and are placing stories and then waiting for revealing conversations 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:16.600 to happen because of said stories. And that's the question specifically, 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:22.080 is that baiting or is that just good process. Angela 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.600 Wagner's mother, Rita Joe Newcombe was sent a court order 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.800 to have these conversations where she would go with the 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.680 boys into having further conversations with her mother and father 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:34.359 about the crimes. Remember when she got arrested, her mother 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:38.520 also got arrested. That's Rita Newcome. So here is Rita 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:41.639 trying to get herself also out of this mess that 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:44.320 she was dragged into because she was accused of all 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:48.240 this forgery with the original custody documents. Now she's basically 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:52.679 working with BCI to start conversations with the Wagner boys 0:17:52.880 --> 0:18:00.240 to hopefully get them to say something incriminating. That just 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:04.719 shows the dissension between mother daughter. That's her grandsons and 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:08.119 that's her daughter and her son in law. Rita Nucombe 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:13.320 was charged with forgery, perjury, and obstructing justice. In twenty nineteen, 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:16.280 Nucombe reached a plea deal and those charges were dropped. 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:20.879 She ultimately pleaded guilty to a reduced misdemeanor charge of 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:25.080 obstructing official business. It must have been probably a hard 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:27.000 celt to swallow. We know she didn't have much choice 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:30.440 because it was a court order, but at this point 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:32.400 we do know a little bit of her frame of mind. 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:35.040 According to her son Chris Newcombe, that she felt really 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.400 betrayed by Angela. She has her son and other grandchildren 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:40.159 to look out for, and so if Angela and her 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:42.360 sect of the family are not going to look out 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:43.800 for her, why is she going to look out for them? 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:48.760 I mean, that must have been the most brutal decision 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.840 to have to make. Do you actually turn against your 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:55.120 own daughter and your grandsons and your son in law. 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:58.720 And by the way, it must have worked and got 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:01.800 them talking, because the defense is adamant that they do 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:04.840 not want these conversations to be a part of any 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:08.120 of this moving forward, So you could imagine those conversations 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:13.439 must be very telling. During testimony, Seth Hageman confirmed the 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:18.600 success of this approach in the past. How many other 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.280 interception warrants. Would you say that you've been a part 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.000 of where it has been related to a cool case 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:28.119 homicide four or five? And in those situations, did you 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:30.760 use this same method as far as tickling the wire 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:35.840 or provocative acts or whatever your terminology is for that. Yes, 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:38.440 in every single one, even the ones that had some 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:41.480 level of correct crime happening, we would use some level 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:44.359 of tickling the wire just to try to get conversation 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.240 about those past events. Okay, And have you been met 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.199 with success in those efforts? There were success in all 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.040 of them. In most cases we've developed information that's led 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:57.520 to either ongoing prosecutions or guilty pleas or verdicts. And 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:00.520 in another case I thinks actually exonerated someone using that 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:07.400 nothing here Again, as attorney my Gallen, it's just a 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:11.840 really fine line as far as inducement. The government has 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:16.080 some flexibility, but still, I mean, they can't elicitly for 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:19.800 an illicit purpose kind of god them into making a comment. 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:24.120 Every case rises and falls on its own set of facts. 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.919 And I know that's not really a helpful answer, but 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:34.480 it's an accurate answer. Besides investigators and the Wagners themselves, 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:37.760 no one but the prosecution and defense know what is 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:42.240 on those tapes. If the guy makes some incriminating statements 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:46.200 and they are validly taken, that's a problem. I mean, 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:49.080 it's a problem for the defense because they're stuck with them. 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:52.680 If you were in the prosecution's seat and you saw 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:57.400 this come down, what are you thinking? Well as the prosecution, 0:20:57.520 --> 0:20:59.520 I mean, I would fight as hard as I could, 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:02.879 obviously to make sure the judge keeps it in. But again, 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:05.840 I'm just assuming that they've got a lot of other 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:09.760 evidence as well. But the defense attorney's doing his job here. 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:14.120 I mean, he wants to whittle away at state's evidence 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:16.520 as much as he can. And you know, this is 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:18.680 all a part of it. She's so hard to say 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:22.520 how much it would damage the state's case when we 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:27.359 don't know what other cards they're holding. We're going to 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:32.200 take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh. 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:36.000 I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:39.440 Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:43.480 of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:49.679 He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:54.320 he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 0:21:54.600 --> 0:21:58.240 He really wasn't. He shouted and to the point she 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:03.720 went unconscious. Could lie about anything, but only takes the 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:07.680 one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:10.920 us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:13.640 to pay for his crime. He needed to be put 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:15.719 to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw 0:22:15.800 --> 0:22:17.720 him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:20.639 him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:23.960 I will always hound you and haunt you. You can 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:28.280 listen to the girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:33.440 or wherever you get your podcasts. LA's reputation not so great. 0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:37.280 People from LA will have a very superficial, nice conversation 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:39.439 with you, and they won't lift a finger to help you. 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:44.000 To LA, people represent rapidity, stop that like oh the 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:47.879 best girls like ah shoot Lee. As someone born and 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:50.520 raised here, I can tell you there's much more to 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:54.760 LA than this. My name is James Kim, and I'm 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:57.879 the creator of a new anthology fiction podcast, call You 0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:02.600 Feeling This. There's ten different stories about LA and the 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:06.280 real people who make up this city. What up Bar? 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:09.320 Did you listen to My message we're just trying to 0:23:09.359 --> 0:23:12.560 get bought. I think I was just freaking out because 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:16.440 I'm scared by connecting with each other. I'm going to 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:21.600 be a father. Ye Are you feeling? This? A fiction 0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:25.920 podcast mixtape about love. Listen to it on the iHeartRadio app, 0:23:26.240 --> 0:23:32.520 Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. 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We'll reveal the hidden treasures you may 0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:22.720 have missed within the show, and we'll take a trip 0:24:22.720 --> 0:24:25.720 down memory lane together. Listen to how Rude Tannertos on 0:24:25.840 --> 0:24:31.359 the iHeartRadio appcable podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Everybody, 0:24:31.400 --> 0:24:34.120 we know there are a ton of podcasts out there. Well, 0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:36.280 we have one we would love for you to check out. 0:24:36.320 --> 0:24:38.919 It is called The pen Pals Podcast with Daniel Van 0:24:39.000 --> 0:24:42.560 Kirk and Rory Scoville. We are both stand up comedians 0:24:42.560 --> 0:24:45.159 where actors were writers, but now most of all, we 0:24:45.200 --> 0:24:48.040 are your pen pals. Every single episode we get two 0:24:48.280 --> 0:24:51.800 letters that we read from our listeners, our new pen pals. 0:24:51.880 --> 0:24:53.880