1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 19 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Hi, it's Elvis Duran on my new podcast, 20 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: Thinking out Loud with Elvis Duran. I'll be bringing you 21 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: candid and maybe sometimes a little crazy interviews with people 22 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: from all walks of life. We'll touch on subjects that 23 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,919 Speaker 1: you just can't talk about on the radio, like life, love, success, failure, 24 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 1: or whatever else comes to mind, but all jacked up 25 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: because after being in this business for as long as 26 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: I have, I want to get to the bottom of 27 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 1: what makes people tick. And listen to my new podcast, 28 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: Thinking Out Loud on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or 29 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's me Isaac MS 30 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: Rahi and oh my god, we have such a special 31 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: guest coming up on Hello Isaac. It's the fabulous Andy Cohen. 32 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: He's here to talk to us about all the stuff 33 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: you want to talk to Andy about and Darling's That 34 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: episode is coming out on Monday, July thirty. First listen 35 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: to Hello Isaac on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you 36 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. This just in today. Attorneys for George 37 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,799 Speaker 1: Wagner the Fourth Sake there is proof he did not 38 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: kill any of the eight victims and therefore could avoid 39 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: the death penalty. Judge Randy Deering heard an impassioned plea 40 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: from George Wagner's attorney, who said his client never pulled 41 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: a trigger on the night eight members of the Rodent 42 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: family were killed execution style. The state made a deal 43 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: with the devil. Basically, so far, Edward Jake Wagner and 44 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: his mother Angela Wagner have confessed to prosecutors and have 45 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: agreed to testify against the rest of the family. George 46 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: and Billy Wagner are still going through the court process. 47 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: The trial has been sent for April of next year. 48 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: This is George Wagner's defense attorney talking about Jake Wagner. 49 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: He's the person that is most responsible for this. He's 50 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,959 Speaker 1: the actual killer. He's the actual He's the one that 51 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: snuck into these homes in the middle of the night 52 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,399 Speaker 1: and shot the victims in the head. All right, Our 53 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: client didn't shoot anybody anyway, says we made a deal 54 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,679 Speaker 1: with the double unfortunated window in this case, and that 55 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: is all four of the individual two are charged in 56 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:24,679 Speaker 1: this This is the piked In massacre Returned to Pike 57 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 1: County Season three, Episode four, State of Ohio Versus George 58 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: Wagner the Fourth I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at 59 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: KAT Studios. With Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane, with both 60 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: Jake and Angela taking plea deals. The possible outcome of 61 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: George Wagner's child seems, on the surface limited in scope. 62 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: It is anything but that the defense is trying to 63 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: position themselves to win the case by limiting what evidence 64 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: will be admissible through a series of motions. Each motion 65 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: involves a request to the court by the defense to 66 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: make a decision on a specific issue before the trial begins. 67 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: Here's retired prosecutor and Flanagan. If you look at any trial, 68 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: it is the state that has to put out everything. 69 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: It's like throwing a party and you're the host or 70 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: hostess and you have to have everything ready. Well, you 71 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: might have a guest on the other side who's going 72 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: to come and say, well, you didn't get yes, you 73 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: didn't do this, you didn't do that. So all they 74 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: have to do is whittle away at the state's witnesses 75 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: and evidence. It's up to the judge to make a 76 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: decision on each of these changes. In this episode, we're 77 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: taking a deep dive into George Wagner's pre trial and 78 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: how these motions could radically change the outcome of the trial. 79 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: Two motions eighty and eighty one have been introduced specifically 80 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: to keep evidence off the table for a capital murder 81 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: case like George's. It could mean the difference between life 82 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: and death. And as we'll find out, even with their 83 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: plea deals in place, it could affect whether Jake and 84 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: Angela reopen themselves to the death penalty. The first motion 85 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: will discuss is eighty one. Here's journalist Angeanette Levy, followed 86 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: by criminal attorney and legal analyst Mike Allen. They're both 87 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: speaking with producer Chris Graves. On January tenth of twenty 88 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 1: twenty two, the defense for George Wagner filed motion number 89 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: eighty one, and it was a motion to suppress audio recordings. 90 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: And the thing they're taking issue with in this motion 91 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: is the fact that apparently DCI agents and other law 92 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: enforcement involved in this case placed listening devices in a 93 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: truck that was driven by both George Wagner and Jake 94 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: Wagner before the Wagners were arrested in twenty eighteen. Hundreds 95 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 1: of hours of audio were recorded by Ohio BCI. I'm 96 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: looking at this and I'm thinking to myself, what on 97 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: earth could be so damning in these recordings. There may 98 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: be nothing, or there may be something. I don't know. 99 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: This is all speculation at this point, but there might 100 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 1: be something that George incriminated himself on that they're trying 101 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,919 Speaker 1: to suppress. Right, there would have to be, or they 102 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: wouldn't go to the problem to file the motion, no 103 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: question about it. Defense counsel wants something with respect to 104 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: those statements thrown out. We just don't know what it is. 105 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 1: So in your mind, George or someone in his cab 106 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: or on some conversation possibly incriminated the family. Absolutely, absolutely, 107 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: they wouldn't be going through all this if that weren't 108 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: the case. To obtain the recordings, homicide detectives had to 109 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: gain physical access to Georgia's truck. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. 110 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: I think there's a really big piece to the puzzle 111 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: here about why are tapping and bugging, and there seems 112 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: to be some sort of a difference between the two 113 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: that is now really a big piece of George's defense. 114 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: Wire tapping and bugging, I think often get confused, and 115 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,359 Speaker 1: you see wire tapping and bugging a lot in movies 116 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: and TV shows, but it's actually a little more nuanced 117 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: than what you see on the screen. So how wire 118 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: tapping works specifically is that you need to get permission 119 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: from a phone company to tap into the cell transmission tower. 120 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: And back in the old days, what you would see 121 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: done in the movies is cops literally clipping wires to 122 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: the phone line in the basement or something like that. 123 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: But now it's all done remotely electronically, so in conjunction 124 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: with the warrant served to the cell phone provider, officials 125 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: are able to do it from the comfort of their office. 126 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: Bugging literally is this transmitter with a microphone that needs 127 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: to be planted someplace physically in a space where authorities 128 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: would want to pick up conversations, which is, by the way, 129 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: very interesting because they have to go through a very 130 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: layered process to be able to get permission to bug 131 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: a vehicle. Bugging is much more invasive because you're actually 132 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: able to record private conversations in someone's home or their car, 133 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: and in this case, they were able to get all 134 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: types of conversations that George Wagner was happening, so law 135 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: enforcement was apparently able to listen to and remotely record 136 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: everything that was said in that truck. Twenty four to seven. 137 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: I mean in person conversations, phone conversations, and even mister 138 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: Wagner talking to himself. The defense is claiming that the 139 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: recordings are inadmissible for a number of reasons, many pertaining 140 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 1: to the fact that it was George's truck that was bugged. 141 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: The case of the bugging is slightly complicated as it 142 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: applies to the Wagners because what the BCI bugged was 143 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: not George's vehicle. It was the truck that he used 144 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: for work, So he didn't own this big rigged truck. 145 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: It was his employer's truck, and so presumably the BCI 146 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: was given permission to access the vehicle from the employer 147 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: and planted the bug when George was not with the truck. 148 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: The type of truck George would drive is a typical 149 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: semi that you see all over the country on the highways, 150 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 1: and so the semi has a sleeper cab in the back, 151 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: which is where the drivers go to take a rest, 152 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: relax sleep for the night. So Ohio BCI agents put 153 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,839 Speaker 1: the bug in the sleeper cab portion of the semi truck. 154 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: And this small detail is one of the four things 155 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: the defense is using to get the motion dismissed. There 156 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: could be an issue with that because that sleeper cabin 157 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: on the semi could be analogized to being someone's home, 158 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: and you know, for all intention purposes, it probably was 159 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: when mister Wagner was on the road, and the house 160 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: is the most constitutionally protected thing that there is, So 161 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: there might be a potential problem there with the authorization itself. 162 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: Because the truck was both not owned by George and 163 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: served as the sleeping quarters, the defense may argue it 164 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: is similar to bugging a hotel room. We also know 165 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: that Jake was in the truck as well. At some point, 166 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: the two brothers were alone for hours or even days 167 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: on the road and what they assumed was a completely 168 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: private setting. That really does speak to the question of 169 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: assumed privacy and conversations that may have happened between Jake 170 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: and George. Allegedly, those conversations are probably very relevant for 171 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: this trial. So the fact that the defense wants to 172 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: question that speaks more to what they're potentially hiding. Here's 173 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: Judge pat Dinka Locker. This is interesting because we don't 174 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: get bugging cases wire tapping cases much. When I looked 175 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: through this, I thought to myself if they had an 176 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: expectation of privacy, the two of them, okay in the 177 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: state illegally vid that then this is the proper motion 178 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: that the judge could grant, say that they're not allowed 179 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: to bring those audio recordings into evidence. Here's Judge Sylvia Hendon, 180 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: who works as a visiting judge out of the Ohio 181 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. It's a violation sixth Amendment. We see that 182 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 1: all the time. You have an expectation of privacy. Does 183 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: your expectation of privacy increase if you're in a sleeper 184 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: cab truck versus a regular cab truck. I don't know 185 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: the answer to that, But again, speaking from an appellate perspective, 186 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: I can tell you that whichever way Judge during goes 187 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: on this, it's going to be an issue. I believe 188 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: in the event of an appeal, I would have to 189 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: believe that that motion to suppress is going to loom 190 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: large in the Court of Appeals. In the event of 191 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: a guilty finding, I will be very interested to see 192 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: his ruling. If I'm employed by somebody, even if I'm 193 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: sleeping there, I wouldn't think that I walk into a 194 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: building or an entity owned by somebody else that's employing me. 195 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: I wouldn't think that I would have an expectation of privacy. 196 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: Here's former BCI homicide investigator Seth Hageman testifying in court. 197 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 1: He oversaw the creation of the warrants for the Wagner case. 198 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: So when you're installing devices, you need a search warrant 199 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: in the county where you're going to install the device 200 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: correctly and specifically, you're talking about the search warrant that 201 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 1: was installed in the RNL truck, correct that both the defendant, 202 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: George Wagner and his brother Jake Wagner drove in tandem. 203 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: Correct To get approval to bug or wire tap, investigators 204 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: must adhere to an even stricter protocol than a standard 205 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: search warrant. They must also produce what's called an interception warrant. 206 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 1: Interception warrants are inherently scrutinized to a greater degree because 207 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: of the privacy issues that they raise, and they're very 208 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: specific statutory requirements of other things in addition to just 209 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: the normal probable cause of the search warrant. That needs 210 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: to be addressed among those is not only do I 211 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: have to show there's probable cause that a crime was committed. 212 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 1: You have to show that there is probable cause that 213 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: a specific person or person's committed that crime. You actually 214 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,839 Speaker 1: have to show that you've exhausted other methods of investigation 215 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: that were less intrusive prior to applying for that, and 216 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: so those are the different steps that make it more 217 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: complicated in a much more difficult process to obtain. Hageman 218 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: an Ohio BCI felt that after months of the investigation 219 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,079 Speaker 1: they had grounds to successfully lobby for an interception warrant. 220 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: During the investigation, Inspector Hageman put together a lengthy report 221 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: and submitted it for approval of an interception warrant to 222 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: bug the Wagners truck. The warrant was approved, giving homicide 223 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: a period of thirty days to monitor the truck once 224 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: the bug was installed. The state played it one hundred 225 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,359 Speaker 1: percent by the book, but the prosecution's case is complicated 226 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: by the fact Ohiobci coordinated the bugging of George's truck 227 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 1: with his employer, and the defense has raised this as 228 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 1: a second point of contention in their motion. Here again 229 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: reporter Angrenette Levy, followed by attorney and legal analyst Mike Ellen. 230 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: The defense is saying this basically violated George's rights because 231 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: the owner of the truck allowed it to happen and 232 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: he had an expectation of privacy. But I'm not really 233 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: sure you have an expectation of privacy in a truck 234 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: that your employer owns. Apparently the owner consented to the bug, 235 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: but it's a case of where the owner is actually 236 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: acting as the government's agent and authorizing that, and there 237 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: could be problems with that. It probably would be upheld. 238 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: You know. It all depends on what the cops probable 239 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: cause for the search warrant to do that would be, 240 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: And I think that's one of the sticking points on 241 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: this one. There is a third complicating issue for the prosecution. 242 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: Much of the audio was recorded across state lines. Would 243 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: any statement that is given outside of the state of 244 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: Ohio be valid under that warrant? Now I don't have 245 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: the warrant, so I don't know for sure, but I 246 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: think that's going to be questioned as well. Usually warrants 247 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: are just limited to the geographical jurisdiction, and in this case, 248 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: it'd be Pike County and or the state of Ohio. 249 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: But let's just say he said something incriminating in Tennessee. 250 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, there may be problems with 251 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: that too. If it was a federal warrant, then they'd 252 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: be okay, but a state warrant they might have some 253 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: issues with that. I've not researched it. I've never encountered 254 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: it ever as an attorney, law student, whatever, But it's 255 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: an issue that if I were defense counsel, I'd be 256 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: pursuing it. The defense also claims that the investigators on 257 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: the case tried to lead the Wagner brothers into incriminating themselves. 258 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: They talk about in the motion that they were trying 259 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: to stimulate incriminating conversation by initiating the contact, and that 260 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: could be problematic for the government too. I mean, if 261 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: a statement is freely and voluntarily given, then there's no 262 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: problem with it. But if the government induces someone to 263 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: make a statement, that could be problematic. What I also 264 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: thought was very interesting about this was the fact that 265 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: police would actually put things out on social media in 266 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: hopes that one of the Wagners, or specifically Angela Wagner 267 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: accused killer Mom, that she would see these posts and 268 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: that would maybe stir up conversation that they would then 269 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: have with each other, and then those conversations would be bugged. 270 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: This is actually called tickling the wire, and tickling the 271 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: wire means that the Feds have wire taps in place 272 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: and are placing stories and then waiting for revealing conversations 273 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: to happen because of said stories. And that's the question specifically, 274 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: is that baiting or is that just good process. Angela 275 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: Wagner's mother, Rita Joe Newcombe was sent a court order 276 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: to have these conversations where she would go with the 277 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: boys into having further conversations with her mother and father 278 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: about the crimes. Remember when she got arrested, her mother 279 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: also got arrested. That's Rita Newcome. So here is Rita 280 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: trying to get herself also out of this mess that 281 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: she was dragged into because she was accused of all 282 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: this forgery with the original custody documents. Now she's basically 283 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 1: working with BCI to start conversations with the Wagner boys 284 00:17:52,880 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: to hopefully get them to say something incriminating. That just 285 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,719 Speaker 1: shows the dissension between mother daughter. That's her grandsons and 286 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: that's her daughter and her son in law. Rita Nucombe 287 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: was charged with forgery, perjury, and obstructing justice. In twenty nineteen, 288 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: Nucombe reached a plea deal and those charges were dropped. 289 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: She ultimately pleaded guilty to a reduced misdemeanor charge of 290 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: obstructing official business. It must have been probably a hard 291 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: celt to swallow. We know she didn't have much choice 292 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: because it was a court order, but at this point 293 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 1: we do know a little bit of her frame of mind. 294 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: According to her son Chris Newcombe, that she felt really 295 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 1: betrayed by Angela. She has her son and other grandchildren 296 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: to look out for, and so if Angela and her 297 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 1: sect of the family are not going to look out 298 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: for her, why is she going to look out for them? 299 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: I mean, that must have been the most brutal decision 300 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: to have to make. Do you actually turn against your 301 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 1: own daughter and your grandsons and your son in law. 302 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: And by the way, it must have worked and got 303 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: them talking, because the defense is adamant that they do 304 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: not want these conversations to be a part of any 305 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: of this moving forward, So you could imagine those conversations 306 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: must be very telling. During testimony, Seth Hageman confirmed the 307 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: success of this approach in the past. How many other 308 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: interception warrants. Would you say that you've been a part 309 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: of where it has been related to a cool case 310 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: homicide four or five? And in those situations, did you 311 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: use this same method as far as tickling the wire 312 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: or provocative acts or whatever your terminology is for that. Yes, 313 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: in every single one, even the ones that had some 314 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: level of correct crime happening, we would use some level 315 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: of tickling the wire just to try to get conversation 316 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: about those past events. Okay, And have you been met 317 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: with success in those efforts? There were success in all 318 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: of them. In most cases we've developed information that's led 319 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: to either ongoing prosecutions or guilty pleas or verdicts. And 320 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: in another case I thinks actually exonerated someone using that 321 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 1: nothing here Again, as attorney my Gallen, it's just a 322 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: really fine line as far as inducement. The government has 323 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: some flexibility, but still, I mean, they can't elicitly for 324 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: an illicit purpose kind of god them into making a comment. 325 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 1: Every case rises and falls on its own set of facts. 326 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: And I know that's not really a helpful answer, but 327 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: it's an accurate answer. Besides investigators and the Wagners themselves, 328 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: no one but the prosecution and defense know what is 329 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: on those tapes. If the guy makes some incriminating statements 330 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: and they are validly taken, that's a problem. I mean, 331 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: it's a problem for the defense because they're stuck with them. 332 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: If you were in the prosecution's seat and you saw 333 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 1: this come down, what are you thinking? Well as the prosecution, 334 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I would fight as hard as I could, 335 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: obviously to make sure the judge keeps it in. But again, 336 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: I'm just assuming that they've got a lot of other 337 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: evidence as well. But the defense attorney's doing his job here. 338 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: I mean, he wants to whittle away at state's evidence 339 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: as much as he can. And you know, this is 340 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: all a part of it. She's so hard to say 341 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: how much it would damage the state's case when we 342 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 1: don't know what other cards they're holding. We're going to 343 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh. 344 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. 345 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 346 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 347 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 348 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 349 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted and to the point she 350 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: went unconscious. Could lie about anything, but only takes the 351 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, 352 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him 353 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 1: to pay for his crime. He needed to be put 354 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,719 Speaker 1: to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw 355 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call 356 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 357 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: I will always hound you and haunt you. You can 358 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: listen to the girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, 359 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. LA's reputation not so great. 360 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: People from LA will have a very superficial, nice conversation 361 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 1: with you, and they won't lift a finger to help you. 362 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: To LA, people represent rapidity, stop that like oh the 363 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: best girls like ah shoot Lee. As someone born and 364 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: raised here, I can tell you there's much more to 365 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: LA than this. My name is James Kim, and I'm 366 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: the creator of a new anthology fiction podcast, call You 367 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: Feeling This. There's ten different stories about LA and the 368 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: real people who make up this city. What up Bar? 369 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: Did you listen to My message we're just trying to 370 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: get bought. I think I was just freaking out because 371 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: I'm scared by connecting with each other. I'm going to 372 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: be a father. Ye Are you feeling? This? A fiction 373 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: podcast mixtape about love. Listen to it on the iHeartRadio app, 374 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. How Rude 375 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 1: Tanta Rito's is the Full House rewatch podcast you've been 376 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: waiting for. Each week, get together with iconic characters Stephanie 377 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: Tanner and Kimmy Gibbler, also known as actresses Jody Sweeten 378 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: and Andrea Barber as they team up to relive every 379 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: episode of your favorite Friday night comfort show. We spent 380 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: our entire childhoods on a little show called Full House, 381 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: playing frenemies but becoming besties whenever the cameras weren't rolling, 382 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: And now, thirty five years later, it's our biggest adventure yet. 383 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: Get ready for Jody and Andrea to tell all as 384 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: they take an in depth book back at life in 385 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: and around the Tanner Home from the very very beginning. 386 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: So if you think you know everything there is to 387 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: know about Full House, How Rude, We'll be reliving every 388 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,360 Speaker 1: moment with you, and we'll be joined by our full 389 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: house family, including all your favorites from one hundred and 390 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: ninety two episodes. We'll reveal the hidden treasures you may 391 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: have missed within the show, and we'll take a trip 392 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: down memory lane together. Listen to how Rude Tannertos on 393 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio appcable podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Everybody, 394 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 1: we know there are a ton of podcasts out there. Well, 395 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: we have one we would love for you to check out. 396 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 1: It is called The pen Pals Podcast with Daniel Van 397 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: Kirk and Rory Scoville. We are both stand up comedians 398 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: where actors were writers, but now most of all, we 399 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: are your pen pals. Every single episode we get two 400 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: letters that we read from our listeners, our new pen pals. 401 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: It can be about anything going on in their life, 402 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: and sometimes we're also joined by guests like Will Ferrell. 403 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna bring you up in front of the group. 404 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 1: I'm gonna punch you as hard as I can stomach. Roseburn. 405 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: This is West Hollywood. We keep Clay Jo considered, Brian, 406 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: I'm just showing you that my mind is quick, if 407 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: not that funny, and Mandy Moore. We're all crossing the 408 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 1: line together. Listen to the pen Pals podcast on Will 409 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: Ferrell's Big Money Players Network, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple 410 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts, and sirely your 411 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: new pen Pals Daniel van Kirk and Rory Scobel. Another 412 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: motion Motion eighty has been put forth by the defense 413 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: to block Jake and Angelis testimony. It's another possible game changer. 414 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: As part of his plea deal, Jake makes many claims 415 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 1: that seemingly exonerate George of the worst aspects of this 416 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: grizzly massacre. Here again Chris Graves speaking with retired prosecutor 417 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 1: and plan. Again, this is from Jake's profferty. Jake has 418 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 1: stated clearly that George did not shoot new One, did 419 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 1: not fire a shot, was not supposed to go with 420 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: Jake and Billy on the murder spree, and only went 421 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: as a last second to protect Jake from Billy, who 422 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: was thought he might kill Jake at the end of 423 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: the series of accurgated murders, presumably to get rid of 424 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: a witness. Do you never really emotions to suppress the 425 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: testimony of someone else, so gay you have still the 426 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: capability of trying to show some kind of dishonesty on 427 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: Jake's part, or that he's not testifying truthfully. But what 428 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: there is a thing the court to do is to 429 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: take this away to suppress their statements before the jury 430 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: ever gets to hear it. Grounds to suppress are usually 431 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 1: based on a misconduct of officers. Was their coercive activity 432 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 1: on the part of officers and they weren't coerce clearly 433 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: Angela and Jake. For one thing, the defense attorneys here 434 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: don't represent the Angela or Jakes, so they don't have 435 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: standing to suppress their statements. Because they're representing George, they 436 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: can move to suppress his statements, but not Jake's and Angela, 437 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: so this is somewhat novel. They're trying to suppress it 438 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: not because of any course of activity, but because he 439 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: might be motivated to lie under oath because he wants 440 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: to get his agreement enforced. So our proffers done under 441 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: oath they can be, they don't have to be. I 442 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 1: don't know how they did it here. I know I 443 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: have done that on occasion when I have a co 444 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: defendant or someone that's going to cooperate, I have tried 445 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: to get it under oath in case they don't testify 446 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: in accordance with it, I can bring that up and 447 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,959 Speaker 1: cross examine them. Look, you gave a sworn statement before 448 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: you're under oath. You said it was the truth, and 449 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: you're now you're saying this, So I'm assuming they may 450 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: have done that, but it's not required. It's possible Jake 451 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: could have lied to get out of the death penalty 452 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 1: or said what he had to say to save his brother. 453 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,360 Speaker 1: You're obviously putting some trust, in some faith in his statement. 454 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 1: You're putting somebody up there to testify to this when 455 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: you may not be exactly sure that he's telling the 456 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 1: whole truth. And that happens sometimes in cases where somebody 457 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: they're telling you the truth but maybe not the whole truth. 458 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: Like you're not getting the whole story, the entire story, 459 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: but you're basically getting what happened, but not every little detail. 460 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: Because maybe Jake was trying to protect his brother at 461 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: some point too. You know, maybe he's thinking, God, I 462 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: can't take my brother down with me. I'm not sure 463 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: why father would kill his son or why another son 464 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: would be fearful of that. Even the motivation potentially is 465 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: Billy the mastermind. Yeah, but mastermind and also his motive 466 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: if he's trying to eliminate witnesses, and certainly makes you 467 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,719 Speaker 1: think this is not the most functional family. The presumption 468 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: has been that it was Angela who kind of masterminded everything. 469 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying she's not deserving. I don't know here, 470 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: but we're hard on matriarchs sometimes or mothers, and did 471 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: we do that legitimately? It does really kind of make 472 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: you think who was calling the shots in this operation. 473 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: If that's indeed true, that George only went along at 474 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: the last minute to protect his brother from their father, 475 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: what was going on there? What is Billy capable of? 476 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess George in this scenario was ready 477 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: to die for his brother protecting him. That would be 478 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: one hell of a car ride, wouldn't it. Yeah, I 479 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: don't know much about Billy. Nobody's spoken about Billy very much. 480 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: Was that the kind of defense they're fashioning, that he's 481 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: here to protect Jake from big Dad Billy and that 482 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: they're both afraid of him? And how is he going 483 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,959 Speaker 1: to protect him from big bad Billy unless he has 484 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: a firearm? Maybe? Do you know what kind of dad 485 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 1: he was? I was here with Jake and George he 486 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: was an asshole. Chris Nwcom, who we've heard from before, 487 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: is Angela Agner's half brother, and now Karen Billy get 488 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: into some screaming matches. Billy's about a useless sustints on 489 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: a borehole. That's the guy who run the truth up. 490 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: How do you mean? I mean that man is one 491 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: hundred percent just lazy and hale, useless, always conniving on something, 492 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: trying to think how to do something, to make a 493 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: quick book. That's the most horseless human being I think 494 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: I've ever met in my life. Despite Billy's nature, angelisted 495 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: by his side. Some see a parallel with Angela's dad, 496 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: Eddie pug Carter. I knew him a hug Carter. He 497 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: always wore this like metal brace and he walked with 498 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: a limp. What I heard from my dad was that 499 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: he would find electric holes and steal copper or something 500 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: else felt holes, and he's gotten elxecuted and it affected 501 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: his walking. It could be that Angela was fiercely loyal 502 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: to Billy because he reminded her of her father. At 503 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: the end of the day, the prosecution in this particular 504 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: case is focused on one job, putting George Wagner behind 505 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: bars or possibly even sending him to death row. It 506 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: will be up to the jury to navigate the muddy 507 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: waters of the Wagner family dynamic. If you are a 508 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: group of people and you are going to go do something, 509 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: if one person holds back and says, now, I'm not 510 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: going to do this, it may not happen. If two do, 511 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: certainly it may not happen. But when you hear these 512 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: people bolstering each other and actually sharing ideas and dynamics, 513 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: and they're just as much a part of all that 514 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: ended up happening as the person who actually pulled the trigger. 515 00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: And I know that, and I think jurors know that. 516 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: People know that, but will they really hold them accountable. 517 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: It's a little harder to understand how the pleas are 518 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: going to work into the trial. Actually presiding over four 519 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: separate cases is a lot easier than presiding over four 520 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: people together, because in a separate case, you're focused on 521 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: that particular defendant. Now you're still going to have to 522 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: keep things straight. You're going to have to know when 523 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: to exclude evidence. There's a lot of rules about confessions 524 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: of co defendants that you're going to have to follow, 525 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: But to try to balance a case with four defendants, 526 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: because right away you've got eight lawyers if you're talking 527 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: about a capital murder case, so you've got a minimum 528 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: of eight lawyers, four defendants, and lord knows how many witnesses. 529 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another break. Oh, I'm Carol Fisher, 530 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: and I'm hosting a podcast called The girl Friends. Back 531 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of 532 00:32:55,200 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He's 533 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and he 534 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. 535 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted and to the point she 536 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes 537 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, 538 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him 539 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: to pay for his crime. He needed to be put 540 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw 541 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call 542 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: him and I would say, I know you killed my sister. 543 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: I will always hound you and haunt you. You can 544 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: listen to The Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast 545 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Delia Wild 546 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: and I want to invite you to listen to my 547 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: newest podcast to existed the two styles. It's called The 548 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: Oh My God Particle Show or OMGPS short. How you 549 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: like me? Always wondering about the universally, what the universe 550 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: is made of? What is in the atmospheres of alien punics? 551 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: And you know, how are we even here to even 552 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,839 Speaker 1: ask those questions? So road trip I want to get 553 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: some answers directly from researchers at the Large Hadron Collider. 554 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: We're colliding particles with energies that naturally existed when the 555 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: universe was about a trillions of the second Old. I 556 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: found scientists from all over the world. Everybody is working 557 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: together to get their experiment working. I've got to doctor 558 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: brilliant astrophysicist who collaborated with Brian May, the guitarist from Queen. 559 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: Listen to The Oh My God Particle Show on the 560 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,399 Speaker 1: I Heard Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get 561 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: your podcasts. She's a Hollywood Western She's Jack Harrowak, but 562 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: in an app dress with brains. She is one of 563 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: the most important American children's authors of the twentieth century. 564 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: She's the basis for a television show still watched around 565 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: the world. Somebody somewhere is watching A Little as the Room. 566 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: She's been called a hero, a racist, a feminist, and 567 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: a propagandist. I think the harm is too great because 568 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: it's just one more thing that Native children have to endure. 569 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: She is Laura Ingles Wilder, author of the book series 570 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: Little House on the Prairie. As a kid, I idolized Laura, 571 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: and last summer I went on the road in search 572 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: of the real Laura. We're literally on the prairie. What 573 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: I found was a complicated person alongside the complicated country 574 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: she represents. I'm Glennis McNicol, and this is Wilder. Listen 575 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: to Wilder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever 576 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. On the Best Podcast Ever with 577 00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:00,760 Speaker 1: Raven and Miranda, you'll hear well the best cod cast Ever. 578 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: Join Raven Simone and her partner Miranda may Day as 579 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 1: they let the Wheel of Words determine the topic of 580 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 1: that week's show. Every episode will spin a wheel of 581 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: random words from things like animosity to something like zodiac 582 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: and whatever it lands on, that's what we're going to 583 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: talk about for around an hour. Think we can't do it, well, 584 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: then you've never heard us talk. Each week, Raven and 585 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: Miranda and celebrity guests like Demi Levado, Kiki Palmer, and 586 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: Megan Trainer will spend the Fateful Wheel and then the 587 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: conversation will begin. Also, we're gonna have a ton of 588 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: amazing guests because you don't want to just hear us 589 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,760 Speaker 1: to all the time. Do yes, you do? And somehow 590 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: We're going to start with something like Spider and end 591 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 1: with well, when was your last nervous breakdown? Listen to 592 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: the Best podcast Ever with Raven and Miranda on the 593 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:51,879 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 594 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: Without the audio from George's hub, the jury will not 595 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: get to hear what the detectives heard in private conversations 596 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:09,359 Speaker 1: between the brothers, and if the defense's motions are successful, 597 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: Jake and Angela's testimony will be off the table as well. 598 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 1: Would you be concerned if it's a live witness and 599 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: Angela steps on the stand and she's facing her oldest 600 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: son testifying against them, is there a word that might 601 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: cause her not to Yeah? Any witness who's somewhat involved 602 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: with the defense. Even though they've said they're testifying and 603 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: they've given good information to pass, you have to wonder 604 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 1: what's the physical, visceral effects, emotional effect of sitting in 605 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: front of that person. Will they freeze? Will they talk? 606 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: Will they tell us what they've told us before? This 607 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: brings us to the final issue. The defense and prosecution 608 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,279 Speaker 1: must navigate how Jake and Angela's plea deal relates to 609 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,319 Speaker 1: these motions and what that means for the future of 610 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: all four Wagners. As of now, the death penalty is 611 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 1: still on the table for George Wagner, and Jake and 612 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 1: Angela's deal to avoid death row is not guaranteed. It's 613 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: contingent upon their testimony being what the court calls to 614 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 1: the satisfaction of the prosecution. We look at this family 615 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: and their story keeps changing, and I am curious to 616 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 1: know what the air quote satisfaction of the prosecution even means. 617 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: Does that mean that if Jake and Angela, who we 618 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:33,320 Speaker 1: know have taken plea agreements, if they don't deliver the goods, 619 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,799 Speaker 1: then what is their death sentence put back on the 620 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 1: table or all of their death sentences put back on 621 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: the table. Who decides the satisfaction piece, it would be 622 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: the prosecution. And so basically, under the terms of their deal, 623 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,359 Speaker 1: they probably agreed to the version of events of that 624 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: night and the months I let up to the crime. 625 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,800 Speaker 1: And so if once they're on the stand under oath 626 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: and they don't stick to the script for lack of 627 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: a better term, than the whole deal would be off 628 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: and death penalty would be back on the table for 629 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: the entire family. George is sticking to his not guilty plea, 630 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:09,839 Speaker 1: which would imply that he's not involved in this at all. 631 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 1: And so Jake and Angela's testimony, which we can assume 632 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: is going to say something along the lines of, well, 633 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: while George might not have pulled the trigger, he certainly 634 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,320 Speaker 1: knew about the murders and might have been there the 635 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 1: night of the murders and helped cover the murders up. 636 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: And so that testimony is going to be pretty damning 637 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 1: for his not guilty plea. It does also speak to 638 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 1: the fact that there are so many endings that could 639 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: still be You know, we see plea deals and you 640 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: think that's the end of the road for Jake Wagner. 641 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 1: But now that's not so there's a big performance ahead 642 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,400 Speaker 1: and he and now his mother, who he's essentially working 643 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: with and against at the same time. How this plays 644 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 1: out in court with George and then later Billy Dad, 645 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: every piece of it affects the other person. So the 646 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:03,359 Speaker 1: totality of it is massive. And this whole case from 647 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,240 Speaker 1: the beginning has been utterly unpredictable. And so to assume 648 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 1: when Billy and George's trials start that we know what's 649 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 1: going to happen and we know what Jake and Angela 650 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,840 Speaker 1: are going to say when they're on the stand, I 651 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,320 Speaker 1: think would be naive. I think what we can assume 652 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: is that we don't really know the ending yet. We've 653 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: been told several theories, even just this season alone, that 654 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: speak to a larger plot happening behind the scenes, and 655 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 1: that it's possible that the Wagoners are lying. Jake may 656 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: have a hand in deciding whether he and his brother 657 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:43,399 Speaker 1: live or die. It's also possible the defense and prosecution 658 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: don't know the whole story that Angela and Jake have 659 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 1: to tell. There's a tenseness about it that isn't there 660 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 1: with other cases. We don't know what other evidence exists, 661 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,480 Speaker 1: you know, we just don't know, to be honest with you. 662 00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 1: It all depends on what their story is on the 663 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: day in a courtroom, face to face with the son, 664 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 1: with a brother and a jury of their peers, I mean, 665 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: with whisperings of cartel involvement and other rumors still lingering 666 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,759 Speaker 1: in Pike County. If given the opportunity to testify, could 667 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 1: Jake and Angela Wagner choose to blow this whole thing up? 668 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 1: Or are they being put up to it behind bars? 669 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: We have heard many rumors regarding the cartel and that 670 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:33,320 Speaker 1: there's a larger story happening here and that the Rodents 671 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 1: murder was not just merely over custody, but that there's 672 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 1: larger issues at play with some different dealings between the families, 673 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 1: and that's dangerous stuff and maybe it's possible that the 674 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 1: Wagners are safest behind bars. More on that next time. 675 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying The Pikes and Massacre, listen to our 676 00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: other hit series, Crazy in Love. New episodes there every 677 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 1: Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and 678 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: case photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. 679 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: The Pikes and Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, 680 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 1: Chris Graves, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed 681 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:23,400 Speaker 1: by Jeff Tis, music by Jared Aston, Audio mixing by 682 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,880 Speaker 1: Ken Novak. The Pikes and Massacre is a production of 683 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit 684 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 685 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 1: your favorite shows. I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a 686 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: podcast called The girl Friends. It's Las Vegas, it's the 687 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,240 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties and it is time to find a husband. 688 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: There were four Jewish doctors who were felt to be 689 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 1: eligible bachelors. One of them one of the spot Baron Bout. 690 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 1: On paper, he was perfect, but in reality, this guy's 691 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: a workout. He choked it to the point she went unconscious. 692 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know 693 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,919 Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The Girlfriends 694 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get 695 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:20,239 Speaker 1: your podcasts. Hi, it's Elvis Duran on my new podcast, 696 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 1: Thinking out Loud with Elvis Duran. I'll be bringing you 697 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,959 Speaker 1: candid and maybe sometimes a little crazy interviews with people 698 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: from all walks of life. We'll touch on subjects that 699 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,320 Speaker 1: you just can't talk about on the radio, like life, love, success, failure, 700 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 1: or whatever else comes to mind, but all jacked up 701 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:36,880 Speaker 1: because after being in this business for as long as 702 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 1: I have, I want to get to the bottom of 703 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,360 Speaker 1: what makes people tick. And listen to my new podcast, 704 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: Thinking Out Loud on the iHeartRadio, Apple Apple Podcasts or 705 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:51,400 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's me Isaac Msrahi 706 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: And oh my god, we have such a special guest 707 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,000 Speaker 1: coming up on Hello Isaac. It's the fabulous and de Cohen. 708 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 1: He's here to talk to us about all this stuff 709 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,920 Speaker 1: you want to talk to Andy about and darlings. That 710 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,840 Speaker 1: episode is coming out on Monday, July thirty. First, listen 711 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,839 Speaker 1: to Hello Isaac on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you 712 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:18,200 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. So, how does the half American, half 713 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:22,840 Speaker 1: Nicaraguan party girl from New Orleans? There's absolutely no journalism experience, 714 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,240 Speaker 1: right the biggest story of the eighties, That's what journalist 715 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,320 Speaker 1: is all about. I'm a woman, wife beater T shirt, 716 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,359 Speaker 1: not wearing a braw curses like a sailor. I got 717 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 1: balls bigger than any man. Dan Rather used to call 718 00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,560 Speaker 1: me his secret weapon. Listen to Journalist To every Tuesday 719 00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,120 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get 720 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 1: your podcast