1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Greece. The jury is on their 2 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: lunch break and we're going to try to bring you 3 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: up today with everything that has happened since we talked. 4 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Last testimony coming in from the witness stand, and we 5 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: all know the defense is not required to prove a thing. 6 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: The entire burden is on the state. I've seen defendants 7 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: that put absolutely nothing up as a defense, and sometimes 8 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: they've won. One reason some defendis hues not to put 9 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: up any evidence at all is because in many jurisdictions, 10 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: if the defendant puts up nothing except for the defensis 11 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: own testimony, or nothing at all, they reserve the right 12 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: to a final closing argument. What's the defense puts in 13 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: any evidence? Then they lose a final closing argument. In 14 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: many jurisdictions, you will very likely see the state give 15 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: a closing argument, the defense give a closing argument, and 16 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: the state have a final closing argument. We'll see how 17 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: that shakes out. But while everybody is hustling out of 18 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: the courthouse and to their seats, I want you to 19 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: see something that you may have missed. I want you 20 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: to take a listen at what heartpooling in The lead 21 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: defense attorney said, in court. Take a listen. I'm not 22 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: five ft two or five foot four. I think you 23 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: should five four, but position me tempting, But I don't 24 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: know how I can do this, so I'm not pointing 25 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: at somebody. There you see the lead defense attorney pointing 26 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: the gun at States Council a prosecutor and say tempting. 27 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: He I didn't think it's very funny, but I did 28 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: guess it did give a comedic break for a moment, 29 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: you know, to Chris Painting joining us from New York 30 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: forensic firearms consultant for the Stria Consulting Group and president 31 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: of Stockwell Consulting, former NYPD, that's not easy, Chris, thank 32 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: you for being with us. You know whatever, I would 33 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: handle a gun in front of a jury, I would 34 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: go to great pains to open the barrel, check it 35 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,839 Speaker 1: out in front of the jury, shoved the barrel back 36 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: where it's supposed to be, and then hand it over 37 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: to the witness. So the jury was never in any 38 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: fear that there was even a bullet in that gun. 39 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,839 Speaker 1: So I find it really odd that you got one 40 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: of the lawyers actually pointing the gun in the court. Yes, Nancy, 41 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: it's a little bit odd to point the weapon at people. 42 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: And I agree with you, it should be made safe. 43 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,119 Speaker 1: It should be shown that Liz safe, pulling the slot 44 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: the rear, locking into the rear, and visually and physically 45 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: inspecting the weapon before you'd make any demonstration. And that 46 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: being said, you still wouldn't point the weapon at anybody, 47 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: preferably at the ground, and treat all the weapons as 48 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: if they're loaded. Yeah, I mean't look in the chamber 49 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: when I said barrel. That's a number one rule of 50 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: using firearms, loaded or unloaded. And I learned on day 51 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: one trying cases, never point the gun at the jury 52 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 1: or at anybody in the courtroom. Very often i'd hold 53 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: a gun out like this, straight down with the barrel 54 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: facing down if I needed to hand it to a 55 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: witness or needed to hold it in front of the jury, 56 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: just as a precaution. The last thing you need is 57 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: one of the jars becoming afraid. But I can tell 58 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: you what I've learned about Hartpooling and the lead defense attorney, 59 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: Ted Williams. He reminds me in a way of my 60 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: old co anchor Johnny Cochrane. God rest his soul, guys 61 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: with me. Ted Williams defense attorney, former Washington DC police 62 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: detective Fox, and his contributor starting power of Attorney Ted. 63 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: This is what I learned from Cochrane, because of course 64 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: I didn't agree with one thing that ever came out 65 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: of his mouth. But I can tell you this Cochrane 66 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: had kind of an it factor, and can't take that 67 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: away from Johnny Cockrane. He would walk in a room 68 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: and everybody would go and look right at him. And 69 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: he was just a guy that people wanted to be around, 70 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: you know, talk to talk about his cases, hear him 71 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: tell stories, and I think Judge Eto felt the same 72 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 1: way about Cochrane. What I have learned from speaking to 73 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: many lawyers that have practiced against Tartpoolian is he's like 74 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: this good old guy that he can spend a yarn, 75 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: He'll throwback some drinks with you. He's very well liked. 76 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: Now does that mean his client's innocent, No, but it 77 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 1: may mean he can spin a yarn and that closing 78 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: argument that may transfix at least one girard, just like 79 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: he pointed a gun at the prosecutor and when he 80 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: and everybody laughed, Yeah, Nancy. The one thing that every 81 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: lawyer that's trying the case want to do, and that 82 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: is to be able to establish a repair with the jury. 83 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: And when Dick Harpollion did his act yesterday, maybe some 84 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: took exception to it, but in reality he got laughed 85 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: out of it, and most of the court was laughing 86 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: at that. So what Dick did was he, in his 87 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: unusual way, in his good old country boy way, was 88 00:05:55,680 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: able to establish a repair with the jury. One of 89 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: the worst things that can happen to a lawyer doing 90 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: the course of a trial is far the jury to 91 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: dislike the lawyer, because if the jury dislikes the lawyer, 92 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: that may have some effect on the client and the averting. 93 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: So Dick Harpulian, going through the theatrics that he went 94 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: through yesterday, did an excellent, excellent job of establishing a 95 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: paw with that jury, and that's what he wanted. And 96 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: did you know, I agree with you, Ted Williams, and 97 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: I think when I tried cases, I think it's more 98 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: important to me that I'd be absolutely correct on the 99 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: facts and the law without a single mistake, so that 100 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: I would be believed. I don't know that I was 101 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: ever liked, but believed, And I think it's all about 102 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: credibility and know Harpulian is nobody's fool. He's tried a 103 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: lot of cases. I mean a lot of cases, and 104 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: he's one major money settlements as well. He knows his 105 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: way around the courtroom, but so do the prosecutors. But 106 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: that was one moment in the courtroom that really struck me. Guys, 107 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: you got to hear more of what the defense expert said. Now, 108 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: this guy on the stand is an engineer. He has 109 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: no training at all in ballistics, and I believe the 110 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: judge threw him a bone through the defense, a bone 111 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: by letting him even testify about ballistics. No training. He's 112 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: more of an accident investigator, accident reconstructionists. And I'll tell 113 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: you how he got into the defense mix. He worked 114 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: with the law firm pimped as I like to call 115 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: it PMPD than that was Murdog's firm. He worked with 116 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: them on accident civil cases and he also was called 117 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: in on the Mallory Beach case to defend Civilly Alex 118 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: Murdog and Paul Murdog. That's how he got roped into 119 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: this thing. Take a listen to the expert on the stand. 120 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: Have you had any formal training in pathology? No? Have 121 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: you had any formal training in firearms or firearms? They 122 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: how they were? No? Are you a member of any 123 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: organizations UM that that do that line of work, that 124 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: that do tests on firearms or pathology? No? Have you 125 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: taken any shooting incident reconstruction classes? No? Do you have 126 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: any certifications in shooting incident and reconstruction? No? Do you 127 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: have any Have you taken any classes in gunshot wounds? No? 128 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: Any of those studies that you did, were they subject 129 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: to peer review? Are published in any publication? No? I 130 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: typically don't write papers or or submit papers. I'm not 131 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: a firearms expert or a pathologist or a wooded expert. 132 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: That's that's not my area of physics. It's not my 133 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 1: area of expertise. Well, at LASTI didn't try to lie 134 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: to Chris Payton joining us again NYPD, and he is 135 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: a forensic firearms expert. How did this guy end up 136 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: testifying about the bullet trajectory or anything about bullets or 137 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 1: ballistics or guns at all. Well, that's an interesting question. 138 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: I don't want to put down any defense witness or 139 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: expert witness if they claim they are Usually that type 140 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: of stuff is uh done during the war, dear, and 141 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: whether it was up to the prosecuting eternity to let 142 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: him proceed as a defense expert. So it's entirely up 143 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: to the court and the judge. If they want to 144 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: do that, set to the judge. It's set to the 145 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: judge whether he an expert. Now, look expertly, he is 146 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: an expert in accident reconstruction. That is what he's an 147 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: expert in. Uh. You know what, when I would put 148 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: a ballistics expert up on the stand, I would ask them, 149 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: what's your education, where do you work, what did you study? 150 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: How many how many ballistics tests have you conducted in 151 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: the course of your career? How many times have you 152 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: testified about ballistics? Have you ever written a paper? Have 153 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: you taught a class? Have you been to a class? 154 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,959 Speaker 1: On and on and on. And I would have ballistics experts, 155 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: you know, especially people from the crime lab that have 156 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: done seven or eight thousand ballistics exams over the course 157 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: of their career. This guy has not not saying he's 158 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: not an expert, but he's not an expert in ballistics. 159 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 1: But I want you to hear how he testified about ballistics. 160 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 1: You didn't do any other renders along these lines of 161 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: an adult sized human being kneeling on the ground while shooting. 162 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: Did you know what I did do is consider that, 163 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: because I mean, obviously from your question you kind of 164 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: can see that in your mind. The first thing you 165 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 1: look at is that Alex is seventy six inches tall. 166 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: I measured to knee is twenty five inches. So that 167 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: means that if he went down on one knee, his 168 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: shoulder is still fifty one inches above the ground. And 169 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: if he shouldered the rifle and a kneeling position, he 170 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: still can't make the quail shot because the muzzle would 171 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: be above where the hole is. So that's number one. 172 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,839 Speaker 1: So the more you back him up, then it just 173 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: gets more and more improbable. That's basically two feet above 174 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: the ground. So that's why it only fits, you said, 175 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: eleven year old kid. But it only fits with a 176 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: short person or with some bizarre shooting posture that doesn't 177 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: match an aiming position or a normal shooting position, or 178 00:11:46,040 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: just an abnormal shooting position. Time stories with Nancy Grace. 179 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: If he shouldered the rifle and a kneeling position, he 180 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: still can't make the quel shot because the muzzle would 181 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: be above where the hole is, so that's number one. 182 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: So the more you back him up, then it just 183 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: gets more and more improbable. That's basically two feet above 184 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: the ground. So that's why it only fits, you said, 185 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: eleven year old kid. But it only fits with a 186 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 1: short person or with some bizarre shooting posture that doesn't 187 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 1: match an aiming position or a normal shooting position, or 188 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:44,719 Speaker 1: just an abnormal shooting position. This is very, very critical 189 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: to the state and the defense when you're talking about 190 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: trajectory path and where the shooter was standing at the 191 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: time of the murders. To Dr Michel du Pree, pithologist, 192 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 1: medical examiner, former detective and author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, 193 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: what do you make of this guy testifying about ballistics 194 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: and trajectory paths and guns and bullets. He's an engineer, Well, Nancy, 195 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: I don't like to criticize anyone, but from criticizing him, 196 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: I said, he's an expert. I think it's an engineering, yes, 197 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: but not in this and I think this is rubbish. 198 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: I think that there are so many variables. And he 199 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: even admitted that there were many variables, but then all 200 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: of a sudden he forgot to mention what those variables 201 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: were and how important they could be. For example, where 202 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: on that line of trajectory was the shooter standing. That's 203 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: going to make a difference in how tall that person 204 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: is supposed to be. In addition, you know he could 205 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: he could be kneeling on one knee that wasn't even discussed, 206 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: and that would make it a very big difference in 207 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: the size of the height of that shooter. I want 208 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: you to take a listen to Oh I was just waiting. 209 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: I knew Ted Williams could not stand by in this. 210 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: Go ahead, hit me, I'm ready. Look, Look, the prosecution 211 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: had to be stuck on stupid to let this guy 212 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: come in as an expert under those circumstances. Nancy, you're 213 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: one of your guests mentioned it. I have before an 214 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: expert is qualified, I've asked the judge the boar dear 215 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: that expert, and then after I boar deer that expert. 216 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: We'd been able to disqualify that expert before that expert 217 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: even testify. And you would have thought that the prosecution, 218 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: not the defense, because they wanted this guy and they 219 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: got some good testimony from him. The prosecution child have 220 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: taken him on boarder and then asks the judge, and 221 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: you're right, asks the judge not to qualify him as 222 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: an expert, a ballistic expert. They didn't do that. They 223 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: were stuck on stupid and not doing that. I knew 224 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: somehow you twist this around and making the state's fault. 225 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: And I admire the way you spun that out. Guys 226 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: with me right now. And Emerson Senior investigative reporter WCIV ABC, 227 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: and she is the host of UNSAWD South Carolina, The 228 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: MURDERI Murders, Money and Mystery podcast, which is awesome, very 229 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: in depth. And Emerson, how did this guy And again 230 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: everybody's worried about hurting his feelings. This is not hurting 231 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: his feelings. He can read his own resume. He knows 232 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: he is not a ballistics expert. They asked him on 233 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: the standing went now, I never did any of that. 234 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: He's an engineer, he is an expert in accident reconstruction. 235 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: I'm not saying he's some hazy that just fell off 236 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: the turnip truck. I'm saying the man's an engineer. He's 237 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: an expert, but not in this field. How did he 238 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: end up testifying all the witness stand And Emerson, that's 239 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: a great question, and I think that's exactly what they 240 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: were driving in and drilling down when the prosecution was 241 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: crossing them. And you know, honestly, just to watch the 242 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: jury because you know, we're in the room with them, 243 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: to watch their sort of the expression on their face 244 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: when you when you trying to explain to a jury 245 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: that the person who or persons who did this would 246 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: have been five two to five four. I think that's 247 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: where it just stuck, right, And it was so easy 248 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: for the prosecution to come in and just really kind 249 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: of bring that point home. I mean, what had they 250 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: kept on saying, is this a twelve year old like 251 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: that did this? So watching the jury's expression, it's just 252 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: it kind of took the top off of that his 253 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: whole testimony that day, it was hard to listen to 254 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: that part of it. Now. As far as what they 255 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: did that was effective, And I think I brought this 256 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: up before, but the optics of the three D animation, 257 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: the visual I mean, you would know this so much 258 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: better than me. But from a prosecutor standpoint, isn't that 259 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: effective to have that visual tool? Yeah? I thought that 260 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: the visuals were really beneficial to the defense. Let me 261 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 1: ask you did the state object to this guy, Mike 262 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: Sutton coming on as an expert, and did the state 263 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: object to him coming on? They did not. Okay, I'm 264 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: really surprised. I didn't care any major objection to Mike 265 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: Sutton coming on. Guys, take a listen to more to 266 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: this guy, Mike Sutton, and you're here to say, to 267 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: testify to these jurors that you're most likely answer is 268 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: that it was a twelve year old two twelve year 269 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 1: olds at five to two. There's no testimony the two 270 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: twelve year olds are involved in this anyway. Misstating the 271 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: facts sustained the objection. You're saying, though, that two five two, 272 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: which we can all guess, approximates what size individual or 273 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: age of individuals. That's your best that's your best desk 274 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: that one went on that night. It's not a guess. 275 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: And again it's not two individuals. It could be one 276 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: person moving slightly there, but that is not a guess. 277 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: That is my opinion, and I've tried to explain it 278 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,719 Speaker 1: to the court as best as I possibly can. Mc 279 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: du Chris Paynton joining us out of New York forensic 280 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: firearms consultant for the STRIA Consulting Group president Stockball Consulting Corporation, 281 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: and former NYPD detective. What do you make of this 282 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 1: guy's testimony. Well, he's going by the aspect that he 283 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,239 Speaker 1: was already admitted into the court as an expert, so 284 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: he felt he was able to give his opinion. I 285 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: thought the prosecutor did a pretty good job of denouncing 286 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: everything that he said by saying he wasn't an expert 287 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: in firearms, and he went through no formal training, no experience, 288 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: but since he was already admitted, he decided to give 289 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 1: his opinion. It takes a long time to be an 290 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: expert in the field of firearms and ballistics. Takes suppressible 291 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: a year and a half of training just to do microscopy. 292 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: You have to test, like you said, thousands of cases, 293 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: thousands of guns. You have to testify was you started 294 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: with one, but then you testify hundreds of times, and 295 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,360 Speaker 1: you have to take various courses. And he didn't do 296 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: any of those things, So you're you're right, he didn't 297 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: qualify as an expert for somehow or other, he still 298 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: got in at least not not an expert in bullistics, 299 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: and he admitted he wasn't an expert in ballistics, Chris Paynton, 300 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: you mentioned the study of microscopy. You mean when you 301 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 1: put bullets under a microscope and compare grooves or tool markings. 302 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: That's correct. When you put cartridge casings and fired bullets 303 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: under comparison microscope to see what marking is that the 304 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: gun left on those fired cartridge casings and fired bullets. Yeah, 305 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: it's very painstaking undertaking, but once you get the hang 306 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: of it, it's just like looking at two fingerprints to 307 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 1: determine if they're the same one. If you're an experienced expert, 308 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: you can spot it immediately. And that's what Chris Paynton 309 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,719 Speaker 1: is talking about. So, you know, one last question on 310 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 1: this before I moved to the million dollar question about 311 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: whether Murdoch is taking the stand, Doctor Michelle Dupree. When 312 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: we're talking about variables and we're talking about this incredible 313 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: light display the defense put on with this expert expert witness, 314 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 1: you know, the green lines of the trajectory path. Hey, Christine, 315 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: can we show that to them? What Payton and Nancy, 316 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 1: I don't want to say. You did say it's an 317 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: immediate It's not always an immediate process. Sometimes it takes time, 318 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: especially with bullets, if I remember correctly, the sled. The 319 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: state law enforcement investigator gave an opinion that it was 320 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 1: inconclusive that the cartridge cases that found whether they fired 321 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: from any of the guns that were seized on the property. 322 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: So it's not Sometimes it's a painstaking process. It takes 323 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: a little bit. Sometimes the things are matched right away, 324 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: but it's not an easy thing to do. No, it 325 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: is not true word words that were never spoken. So 326 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: doctor dupri I don't know. If you can see what 327 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 1: we're showing right there with a green light showing the 328 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: trajectory path of the bullets, it doesn't mean a thing. 329 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you why, and tell me if I'm wrong. 330 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: You're the expert. I'm just a JD. Because of the 331 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: burn on the bodies, the stipling, it shows they weren't 332 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 1: standing out there. They were standing right up on the body. 333 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: You can only get stipling or powder burn. It's like 334 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 1: a tattoo of burn marks because you're so close to 335 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: that hot gun barrel. It scorches your skin. There was stipling, 336 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: So all of that right there doesn't mean a hill 337 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: of beans. They weren't standing out there, they were right 338 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: up on the that's right, Nancy. Because of that stippling 339 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: or tattooing as we call it, that person had to 340 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: be within about three feet or so of their target. 341 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: And we know that the expert said that he could 342 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: be anywhere along that line, that green line, but that 343 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 1: just isn't so that person has to be within approximately 344 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: three feet of their target in order to get that 345 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 1: stipling or tattooing on the body. Guys, again, you're seeing 346 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Dupree, but on the right you're seeing it's 347 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: a pretty good demonstrative display the defense put on. I'm 348 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: wondering if anybody's going to get hung up on it 349 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: back there in the dreary room, because it was pretty impressive. 350 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: Of course, with those stipling marks on a victim, it 351 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: means the shooter was right there, up on the body, 352 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: so close to the body that the skin was burned 353 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 1: with a gunshot powder tattoo. That's what that means. Guys, 354 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: go ahead, jump in here, he comes. Go ahead. I'm sorry, 355 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: I've got the ask the question. Why you're not sorry? 356 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:10,360 Speaker 1: Go ahead? Why did the prosecution have to bring out 357 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: this evidence and put on that three D demonstration? Why 358 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 1: didn't the prosecution put on this information instead of the defense. 359 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: I meant, I stand to be corrected. It seems to 360 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 1: me that the prosecutor brought up with doctor dupre just 361 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: represented and they would have shown how the stippling, They 362 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: would have shown how close everything was it ballistic. Wise, 363 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: they let the defense steal the day with that. I 364 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: believe Nancy Well, I don't know if you were listening 365 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: to the case in chief of the state put up 366 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: their evidence, but the stipling did come in. The stipling 367 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 1: has come in, so that's going to be argued in 368 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: closing argument. And why did they Why did the defense 369 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,040 Speaker 1: use such an awesome demonstrative tactic because they could, and 370 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: they've got the money to do it, so why not 371 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,479 Speaker 1: do it? Doesn't mean it hill of beans to me. 372 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:06,959 Speaker 1: They get put up all the slides they want to, 373 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: But I know what stippling is, and that jury is 374 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 1: going to know what stippling is on the bodies of 375 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: the victims. That means the shooter was not out there 376 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: as depicted in that picture presented by the defense, that 377 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: slick three D. Let me just say, um scenario that 378 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: they put up, that's not true, that's not real. The 379 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: stipling is real. The medical examiner saw it and it 380 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: has been accepted into court that the killer was at 381 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: close range. Hey guys, another thing. Let me just ask 382 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: everybody on the panel right now. Now, Hey, Williams, this 383 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 1: is a yes no question. Okay, you're on cross. Will 384 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: Murdock take the stand? Williams, you don't want me to 385 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: just say yes and no? Please if I yes, I do, Okay, 386 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: go yes. I think he's gonna have to take the stand. 387 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 1: I think he's gonna have to take the stand. There's 388 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: just too many things that are left out there that 389 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 1: needs to be explained, the timeline, the fact that eight 390 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: forty four, you've got that video of his voice along 391 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: with Paul and Maggie's. Somebody's got to explain that that 392 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: is the prosecution's case and they need to focus on 393 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: that aspect of the case. Nancy, Well, have you ever 394 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: thought what about it with me? Is irv Brandt? He 395 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 1: has seen prosecutions all over the world. Why the world, 396 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 1: Senior Inspector US Marshal Service. You know, I love the 397 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: US Marshals. They will track you down no matter where 398 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 1: you are in drag your are in in a court. 399 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: He was with dj Office of international affairs. He's been 400 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: placed in embassies around the world. He is an author 401 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 1: of solos shot Curse of the Blue Stone on Amazon, 402 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 1: also Flying Solo Top of the World on Amazon. I 403 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: don't know when you've got time to write books, but 404 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: power to you, man. Let me ask you this. IRV Brent, 405 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: let me set it up for you. Hold on and Emerson. 406 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: Isn't it true that today the defense put up a partner, 407 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: one of Murdoch's law partners, on the stand. And on 408 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: the stand, this law partner advised how Murdoch cannot keep 409 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: his story straight? First, he said, he checked, I believe 410 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: this unless I've got it beast ekwards, he checked Paul's 411 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: body first, then Maggie's, then later he got it reversed. 412 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:46,719 Speaker 1: That kind of thing. You don't confuse whose body you 413 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: went to first. He can't keep his story straight, even 414 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: talking one on one with his law partner. What's gonna 415 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 1: happen when he's on the stand. Didn't that happen right 416 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: before he went to break? Well? Absolutely, Mark Ball was 417 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: the defense witness, but he really felt like he was 418 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 1: working for the prosecution as well. I have to be honest. 419 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: I mean Mark Ball, as far as a witness goes 420 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: just in general, the ability for him to recount some 421 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: of the details, not just of that night, but of 422 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: their entire relationship. I mean, this is someone that Alec 423 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: is known for thirty four years. He came across when 424 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: he was talking about the defenses, very sympathetic to his family, 425 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 1: but boy was he mad about the lying and angry 426 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: about what had happened, not just in these murders but 427 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: the financial crimes. I mean, he was talking about how 428 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: ten to eleven million dollars had to come out of 429 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 1: his pocket, and all of his partners at this firm 430 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: where they saw his family. So first off, I don't 431 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: know who he was more effective for, if it was 432 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: for the defense or the prosecution. But one of the 433 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: things that was on top of the who did you 434 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: check first, Maggie or Paul. The other thing that came 435 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: out in that was about the kennel video, And that 436 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: was tough to hear because he said three times, three 437 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: times Alec had lied to him or had had neglected 438 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: to say that he had been at the kennel at 439 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: eight forty four. And this is this is a guy 440 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: who remembers details. Came across very and got I agree 441 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: with you, and tell me if I got it wrong, 442 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 1: because there've been over sixty witnesses at this point. I 443 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: believe IRV Brandt, formerly with the US Marshall, this guy 444 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,239 Speaker 1: is one of those guys that's a real believer. In 445 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: other words, he's devoted his life, his life's work anyway, 446 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: to this law firm. I believe. He said he clerked 447 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: a year with a judge and then he joined this 448 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: law firm, and he's been with this law firm his 449 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: whole career. You know, like us, IRV. We've been in 450 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: prosecution and representing the state, our whole lits. That's the 451 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: way we see the world. This guy was very believable. 452 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: He talked about how much money he had lost because 453 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: of Alex and Murdog, and how he had devoted himself 454 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: to this firm. He talked about the night that Maggie 455 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: and Paul were murdered. He talked about going and trying 456 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: to console Alex and Murdog and how Murdog changed his 457 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: story about what he did that night. Whose body did 458 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: he check first, who did he go to immediately to 459 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: see if they were alive? And, as Anne pointed out 460 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: about the kennels, he denied or failed to state he 461 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: had ever been at the kennels, which is a lie. 462 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: And this witness who is Murdog's friend, agreed that was 463 00:29:55,320 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: a lie. But he make that well exactly what he said. 464 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: It's one thing for him to say it, and he 465 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: actually said it during the testimony. It doesn't matter to 466 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: me that he changed his story. He was upset, he 467 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: was traumatized. He tried to explain that away. I don't 468 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: like to disagree with Ted Williams. I actually loved to 469 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: disagree with Ted Williams. It would be a massive mistake 470 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: for Alec to take the stand. He's not going to 471 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: be able to get away with saying something like that, 472 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: you know. To the reason why I changed my story 473 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: is because I'm what's traumatized. He would get cut apart 474 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: if he takes the stand. It'll be over the objections 475 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: of his defense. He would be sliced up like a 476 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving turkey on a silver platter, put on top of 477 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: the Christmas tree. That is what would happen, and all 478 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: of his lines would be exposed. And Nancy, you know, 479 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: and this is what we saw at the very top 480 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: of this morning before the jury came in Jim Griffin 481 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: has already talked to the judge about whether or not 482 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: the financial crimes would be let in. Are their stipulations? 483 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: Can we go ahead and have some ground rules if 484 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: Alec goes on the stand, And of course the judge 485 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: was like, absolutely not, I'm going to happen. That's interesting 486 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: that you brought that up. That is exactly what I 487 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: was just about to play for the listeners. Take a 488 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: listen to our cut five. We are discussing with mister 489 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: Murdock on his right to testify or not testify. And 490 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: one of the issues that has come up as the 491 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: scope of cross examination that the state would be permitted 492 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: to go into. The basic rule is where the defendant 493 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: takes the stanny waves as Fifth Amendment privilege as to 494 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: matters to which she testifies on direct and relevant matters. 495 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: What we're asking it for an order excluding the state 496 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: from being able to question mister Murdoch on cross examination 497 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: matters related to the financial crimes. You're on. A rule 498 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: six to eleven B on the scope of cross examination 499 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: expressly says that a witness may be cross examined on 500 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: any matter relevant to any issue in the case. So 501 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: these matters which go right to the heart of the 502 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: credibility and frankly, the extensive dishonesty of this definition. I 503 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: am not going to issue and order and events limiting 504 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: the scope of cross examination. Any objection will matter, must 505 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: be addressed as the evidence is presented. Okay, what they're 506 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: asking there, the defense is asking when Murdoch and if 507 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: Murdoch takes the stand, can his cross examination be limited? Well, 508 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: I don't see that under the constitution, but the fact 509 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: that they're even talking about it suggests that Murdoch may 510 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: take the stand. I think for the defense it would 511 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: be a horrible, horrible because, as I was asking IRV 512 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: Brandt earlier, if he can't keep his story straight when 513 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: he's talking to his friend the night of the murders 514 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: and he gets his story confused, what is going to 515 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: happen when he is under cross examination by the state 516 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: that states. And I also noticed an Emerson that the 517 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: more this witness was talking, the more Alex Murdog got 518 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: to chewing on those life savers. I mean, he was 519 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: chewing up so that he was chewing up a storm. 520 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: But it was I think partly because he saw who 521 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: was looking at him. There were the twelve jurors, plus 522 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: you know, the two alternates that are left staring at him. 523 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: They at least, you know, half of them looked very 524 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: uncomfortable as well as they were hearing everything you're talking 525 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: about with the Mark Ball testimony, that it was very 526 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: uncomfortable and they looked angry. I mean they did. There 527 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: was several of them that did not look happy at 528 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: all as they were listening to this. So you know, 529 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 1: I was definitely when Mark Ball was on the stand 530 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: and it was on cross exam, I remember, this is 531 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: the defense witness. The defense did this. They put this 532 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: guy on his fan a friend of Murdog's, and he 533 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: was very, very believable when he was on cross exam 534 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: and the prosecutor got ahold of a list of all 535 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: these clients that Murdog had built. It's not just money 536 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: and Emerson. I believe it was Mark Ball that was 537 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: testifying to one of the clients had colon cancer and 538 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: was dying and he was a friend of Murdog's and 539 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: Murdog stole his money. There was another sheriff or cop 540 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: that had been injured, and I think it was coming 541 00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 1: up on Christmas. I can't remember the way that one 542 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 1: went yes, yeah, I talked to Tommy about this. I 543 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: talked to Tommy about this. I actually interviewed him not 544 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: far after the time came out that with the indictments 545 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:20,439 Speaker 1: against Alec Murdoch for this particular charge, very believable, boy, 546 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 1: if they get Highway patrol Trooper Tommy Moore up there. 547 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: I mean, talk about a difficult situation. I mean, it 548 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 1: was just another financial victim. He got hurt on the job. 549 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 1: He was helping a car during a freak snowstorm that 550 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: we had down here, and he basically broke his neck 551 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: and never got the money. And because Alec Murdoch could 552 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,839 Speaker 1: allegedly pocketed it. And that's what Mark Ball was talking about, 553 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: because the Tommy case was really hard for Mark because 554 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: Mark was working on the i think the workman's comp 555 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,919 Speaker 1: part of that case, so they were working together on 556 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: Tommy's money. So when that went through that you could 557 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 1: just see how that just hit Mark Ball on the 558 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: wrong angle. He's obviously a very truthful man. He's this 559 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: is his legacy, he said, this is this is his family, 560 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: the whole firm. He took this incredibly personally. So did 561 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: the jury. So did the jury. Let me circle back 562 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: to Ted Williams. Ted Williams, you think Alex murdogu should 563 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: get up on that stand? Oh boy, how I would 564 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,879 Speaker 1: like to cross examine him because I'd like to ask him, 565 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 1: why did you steal this trooper's money with a broken neck? 566 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: That was your friend? Why did you steal the money 567 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: from the guy who was dying of cancer? You stole 568 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: his money? If you would lie to them, wouldn't you 569 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,760 Speaker 1: lie to this jury to save your own skin, murdog 570 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't you? Oh? Yeah, side would tear him a knee 571 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: wear end? Oh and I'm putting it mildly. No way 572 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: this guy's taking a stand. Well, let me say I 573 00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: agree with you, and I want to say something to 574 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: get my friend, and that is I do not think 575 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:07,439 Speaker 1: Murdoch should be anywhere near the stand, But I do 576 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,399 Speaker 1: believe that there is a possibility that he is going 577 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,720 Speaker 1: to take the stand. And the reason being is because 578 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,359 Speaker 1: sometime lawyers are stuck on stupid and dumber than they are. 579 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,879 Speaker 1: Sometime lawyers believe that they can get up there on 580 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,359 Speaker 1: that stand and that they can tell a story that 581 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,839 Speaker 1: is believable to the jury. In this case, you are 582 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 1: absolutely right, Nancy, they will cut him up every which 583 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: way but loose, and I question the sanity of this 584 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 1: man to get up and get on that stand when 585 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: he cannot explain even the timeline, When he can't explain 586 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: that he left from Moselle there going to visit his mother, 587 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 1: but along the way, guess what they find is Maggie's 588 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 1: cell phone on the same route that he was visiting. 589 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:10,800 Speaker 1: How do he explain that? So so, No, I don't 590 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 1: want him to take the stand, but he may take 591 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: the stand unfortunately ignorantly. Well, I never said times you 592 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 1: would advise him to take the stand. I'm saying. What 593 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 1: I'm saying is it would be a big mistake for 594 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 1: him to take the standing. The question firearms consultant and 595 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 1: join him that I mean to cut you off, RV. 596 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: Sorry about that, Chris. Have you ever had a client 597 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:42,399 Speaker 1: that you have told a B C and then they 598 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: get up on the stand and they say X, Y Z, 599 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: and you're sitting there going how did that happen? I 600 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,720 Speaker 1: can tell you a story. I don't. I don't have clients, 601 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: but I have had where prosecutors have asked questions or 602 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: defense attorneys have asked questions. I've gone completely off script 603 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: to what was supposed to be talking about what was 604 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 1: supposed to be discussed. I don't have defense clients, but 605 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: sometimes the things just go completely off the rails and 606 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 1: the court and it has to be corrected during No, 607 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 1: you're not a defense attorney or a lawyer, but I 608 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: know you've got a lot of clients to be the 609 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: CEO the president of Stockwall Consulting Corps. The point is, 610 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: sometimes you get a client that just absolutely will not 611 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: do what you tell them to do. I mean, I 612 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: don't know why he's paying hard Putley and all this 613 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: money if he's not going to do what hard putleyan 614 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 1: tells him to do. But I've seen it over and over, Williams. 615 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,359 Speaker 1: Haven't you seen that in court? I've looked over there, 616 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 1: and of course I love it when it happens, but 617 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:50,880 Speaker 1: I've looked over there and seen the defendant and the 618 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,359 Speaker 1: lawyer is just fighting furiously, whispering, and you know, then 619 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: the defendant decides to take the stand and I'm just 620 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,879 Speaker 1: so happy. You must have been in court somewhere when 621 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 1: I was there with my handkerche about crying, because there 622 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: are times that we learned one thing. It's hard to 623 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 1: control a client. And once that client is on the stand, 624 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,359 Speaker 1: he is fair he or she is fair game. And 625 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,359 Speaker 1: when you look at what happened this morning where they 626 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,319 Speaker 1: wanted to come in meeting the defense and try to 627 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,319 Speaker 1: limit the testimony that he's gonna give, that will never 628 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,959 Speaker 1: happen in that court, in any in this country where 629 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: you're gonna limit the testimony under those circumstances. Now, I 630 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,840 Speaker 1: wanted to also here, guys, hold on this was to 631 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 1: just have it on the record. He may have where 632 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,240 Speaker 1: he may be trying to psych out the state thinking 633 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,840 Speaker 1: they need to run home tonight and burn the midnight oil, 634 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: getting ready for a Murdock's cross exam. I guarantee they've 635 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:55,360 Speaker 1: already been thinking about that because we know Murdoch is uncontrollable. Guys, 636 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 1: I want you to listen to our cut seven. I 637 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: want you to hear Mark Ball talking about what he 638 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 1: saw the night of the murders. Did you look in 639 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 1: the feed, ron I did. You could see where one 640 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,879 Speaker 1: of the shot had gone through and hit embedded in 641 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,839 Speaker 1: the window frame right there the molding, and then there 642 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,480 Speaker 1: was a piece of buckshot laying on them the legendum 643 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 1: the windowsill. What did you do when you observed the shots. 644 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: I walked back out and asked what I thought was 645 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: the agent. We said, we've got all we need, and 646 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: so I walked back over there, looking around down them, 647 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: around the floor and all that. There was a piece 648 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 1: of Paul's skull about size of the baseball laying there. 649 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 1: Did that upset you, It did very much. I mean, 650 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: it just really infuriated me. This young man had been 651 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,839 Speaker 1: murdered and there was still his remains there, and there 652 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: was a large blood spot and tissue out right off 653 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: of the apron of that area right outside the feed 654 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,760 Speaker 1: room that was there. And it's kind of like walking 655 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 1: across the grave Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Did you 656 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 1: look in the feed ron? I did. You could see 657 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,879 Speaker 1: where one of the shot had gone through and hit 658 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 1: embedded in the window frame right there, the molding, and 659 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: then there was a piece of buckshot landing on them, 660 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 1: the legendum the windowsill. What did you do when you 661 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,879 Speaker 1: observed the shots? I walked back out and asked what 662 00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 1: I thought was the agent. We said, we've got all 663 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: we need, and so I walked back over there, looking around, 664 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: down around the floor and all that. There was a 665 00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:10,439 Speaker 1: piece of Paul's skull about size of the baseball laying there. 666 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 1: Did that upset you? It did very much. I mean, 667 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 1: it just really infuriated me. This young man had been 668 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: murdered and there was still his remains there, and there 669 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: was a large blood spot tissue out right off of 670 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:31,160 Speaker 1: the apron of that area, right outside the feed room 671 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,400 Speaker 1: that was there, and it's kind of like walking across 672 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,439 Speaker 1: the grave. And you know, doctor Michelle Dupree joining me, 673 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:46,440 Speaker 1: medical examiner, pathologists, former detective, also author of Homicide Investigation 674 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 1: Field Guide, Doctor Dupree, there is nothing light being on 675 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:57,799 Speaker 1: a homicide scene. It's very upsetting, much less when you 676 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,839 Speaker 1: know the victim and in this case, the victims and 677 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,759 Speaker 1: you hear this is the dichotomy I'm presenting to you, 678 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:10,799 Speaker 1: doctor Dupris. You hear this witness Mark Ball and his 679 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:17,480 Speaker 1: seemed like anger that this young man's body was still 680 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 1: laying there, splayed out a riddle, torn apart with bullets. 681 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,960 Speaker 1: But yet Murdog was thumbing through his phone looking up 682 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:32,280 Speaker 1: a restaurant Nancy. That to me, that's unfathomable. I can't 683 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:37,880 Speaker 1: imagine there. And there have actually been unfortunately published photographs 684 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 1: of exactly what he's talking about. The entrance to the 685 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,520 Speaker 1: feed room, and two sections of Paul's skull are shown 686 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,200 Speaker 1: in that photograph. I can't imagine that being someone that 687 00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,840 Speaker 1: you are close to, a loved one, a family member, 688 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:56,280 Speaker 1: and you are looking at a restaurant. You can't dial 689 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: that by mistake. I don't know what was going through 690 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,439 Speaker 1: his mind at that point in time, but I don't 691 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: think it was about you can't because you really can't. 692 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: Because he had to put in the name and spell 693 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 1: the restaurant into Google to get it to pop up. 694 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,279 Speaker 1: What was he looking at the closing time? Did he 695 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:16,640 Speaker 1: think he was going to run by and have a 696 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,719 Speaker 1: stake in a potato? I don't know, but he was 697 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,560 Speaker 1: looking at restaurants and opening a group chat a group 698 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,319 Speaker 1: email about a woman in a bikini. And here you've 699 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:31,320 Speaker 1: got the friend Mark Ball angry and upset about Paul's remains. 700 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,239 Speaker 1: Not murdog. But I want you to hear what Ann 701 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,680 Speaker 1: Emerson w CIV was telling us about in our cut 702 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 1: ten And did you talk to him about what he 703 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:44,920 Speaker 1: did that night? Yea? And did he deny ef he 704 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 1: going down to those kennels to his buddy and malk 705 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:51,520 Speaker 1: partner thirty four years he said that he ate dinner, 706 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: laid down on the couch, took a nap, and then 707 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,560 Speaker 1: left to check on him. And now you know that's 708 00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:58,880 Speaker 1: not true for you seeing the kennel video, right, dude. 709 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 1: And that wasn't the only time he told you that. 710 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:03,480 Speaker 1: At least three times and his conversations with you, did 711 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:07,280 Speaker 1: he ever change his story about who he checked first 712 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 1: at the scene supposedly. I don't know whether it's just 713 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,440 Speaker 1: because of the trauma of the situation, but first time 714 00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,560 Speaker 1: I remembered he checked Maggie first and then went to Paul, 715 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,880 Speaker 1: And then I heard him say at one point that 716 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 1: it was Paul and then it was Maggie. It didn't 717 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,800 Speaker 1: really matter to me. It wasn't something I really was 718 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:30,919 Speaker 1: picking up on because it was horrendous either way. I mean, 719 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,439 Speaker 1: I can't imagine seeing my wife dead and my son 720 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,600 Speaker 1: dead in such a brutal manner. And Emerson, let me 721 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:43,680 Speaker 1: ask you a question. Has anybody performed a test where 722 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:49,120 Speaker 1: one person sits inside of Moselle in the hunting lodge 723 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,040 Speaker 1: and the other person goes out to the dog kennel 724 00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,960 Speaker 1: and fires guns multiple times? Has anybody done that to 725 00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,399 Speaker 1: find out if the person in Moselle can hear the gun? Well, 726 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,439 Speaker 1: that's actually interesting because that's what they were messing around 727 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,440 Speaker 1: with yesterday with Mike Sutton, the forensic engineer that was 728 00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:07,919 Speaker 1: on the stand for the defense. He was talking about 729 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,840 Speaker 1: the decibel levels and he said that the house is 730 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,880 Speaker 1: so well insulated that when you're inside, and I am 731 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,240 Speaker 1: literally just kind of replaying what Mike Sutton was talking 732 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,520 Speaker 1: about was that the decibel levels he tested at a 733 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,480 Speaker 1: shotgun level and it was extremely hard to hear, especially 734 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,920 Speaker 1: if there was like a TV on. So that is 735 00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,120 Speaker 1: what we heard in testimony yesterday from the defense and 736 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:34,799 Speaker 1: actually I was prosecution actually didn't They didn't go after him. 737 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,200 Speaker 1: The prosecution did not really go after him on this 738 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,120 Speaker 1: decibel part. And I don't know why. I don't know if, 739 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,200 Speaker 1: I don't know why. I thought that they would have 740 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,360 Speaker 1: something that it doesn't seem like they had any decibels 741 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,480 Speaker 1: said it was extremely hard to hear, but that he 742 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,399 Speaker 1: did hear it correct. I think that's basically it would 743 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,920 Speaker 1: be if you were watching TV, might be distracted, you 744 00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 1: may not know what it was. Um, it was kind 745 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:01,400 Speaker 1: of that idea, yea, that like you wouldn't really know 746 00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:04,120 Speaker 1: what you were listening to if you heard gunshots going off? 747 00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,960 Speaker 1: Is where he was going with it, I think, but yeah, 748 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,120 Speaker 1: that the house is really well insulated, it would be 749 00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,359 Speaker 1: hard to hear. Prosecution, but he didn't even he said 750 00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:16,479 Speaker 1: it's extremely to hear. He said, it's extremely hard to hear. 751 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,160 Speaker 1: That didn't was not I didn't hear it. It was 752 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,120 Speaker 1: hard to hear it, but he heard it. Nancy, Yes, 753 00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:28,200 Speaker 1: did he replicate did he actually at Straya and Stockwell, 754 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,840 Speaker 1: we trained people in microscopic analysis, and you know, dealing 755 00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,799 Speaker 1: with the ballistics in this case. That's the court thing 756 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:39,360 Speaker 1: that we do. As far as training people in microscopic analysis, 757 00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,560 Speaker 1: we don't really necessarily do with firearms. But in my experience, 758 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:48,239 Speaker 1: did they replicate did he have a shotgun? And if 759 00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,600 Speaker 1: he did have a shotgun does how did they know 760 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,760 Speaker 1: exactly the length of the shotgun, what load was used, 761 00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,120 Speaker 1: the barrel length, where there was choke restrictions on it. 762 00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,920 Speaker 1: It's a difficult thing to determine after the fact that 763 00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:08,200 Speaker 1: hearing would rather be subjective. You know, shotgun blasts are 764 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,240 Speaker 1: allowed to have in cases where there's been gunfire inside 765 00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,440 Speaker 1: of a building and people didn't hear it. But I 766 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:18,799 Speaker 1: think it's a strange approach to say that it could 767 00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,560 Speaker 1: be heard or not be heard after the fact, whether 768 00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,680 Speaker 1: they actually could replicate the firing of a gun when 769 00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:27,759 Speaker 1: they don't actually have the shotgun. Yeah, here they do 770 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,600 Speaker 1: not have the weapon. They don't have the actual murder weapon. 771 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,800 Speaker 1: It has vanished. But you know what I think, Ted Williams, 772 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,520 Speaker 1: it's kind of thing where you don't want to do 773 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,720 Speaker 1: the experiment, the science experiment, because it may go wrong. 774 00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,320 Speaker 1: If the state does that experiment and the person cannot 775 00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,600 Speaker 1: hear it in the house, they got to turn that 776 00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:52,160 Speaker 1: over under Brady vw. Maryland. That's the sculpritory. And if 777 00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,919 Speaker 1: the state, if the defense does it and you can 778 00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:59,279 Speaker 1: hear it, well that hurts them. So I think that 779 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,200 Speaker 1: is really why everybody's dancing around this. Nobody really wants 780 00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:06,160 Speaker 1: to talk about it in court because it could backfire 781 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:11,400 Speaker 1: well because I actually I do need some information about 782 00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,399 Speaker 1: that as well. What's going on or I think that's 783 00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,840 Speaker 1: going on, is that there's going to be there could 784 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,480 Speaker 1: be a rebuttal case. Right. They had Kinckinseye up for 785 00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:24,759 Speaker 1: the prosecution a while back as their forensics expert. I 786 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,160 Speaker 1: think that's what they're waiting to be able to do 787 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,520 Speaker 1: if they're going to have any kind of rebuttal case 788 00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 1: once the defense is done. I think that's where you're 789 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:34,879 Speaker 1: going to hear some of the prosecution coming back, Ted, 790 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:39,920 Speaker 1: what were you saying? No, I wholeheartedly agree with you, Nancy, 791 00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,399 Speaker 1: you know, but I gotta tell you, I don't know 792 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:48,200 Speaker 1: what the prosecution is doing. I think that they should 793 00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:52,120 Speaker 1: have went at this guy when he represented about the 794 00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,520 Speaker 1: quietness of the bullet and the ballistics, and that they 795 00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,399 Speaker 1: should have gone at him. They didn't go at him, 796 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,000 Speaker 1: meaning the prosecution. Also, I need to go back just 797 00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:04,960 Speaker 1: for a second where we talked about Mark ball and 798 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,280 Speaker 1: the skull and all of this. Remember what he said. 799 00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:13,520 Speaker 1: He said that the sled the law enforcement had allowed 800 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,000 Speaker 1: him to go back into that area. So what he 801 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,399 Speaker 1: was trying to get out and the help dicking them 802 00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,400 Speaker 1: was with and the help Alex is that the scene 803 00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:27,879 Speaker 1: itself was contaminated because he was allowed to go back 804 00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:31,600 Speaker 1: and forth in that area where the crime scene was, 805 00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,560 Speaker 1: and that he discovered this piece of the skull. So 806 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,160 Speaker 1: that is where they're going with this contamination of evidence. 807 00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:46,880 Speaker 1: But again, the prosecution it's missing, is missing some great 808 00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,640 Speaker 1: things that they could come at in this case, and 809 00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:51,520 Speaker 1: they're not doing it. And I don't know why in 810 00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:53,879 Speaker 1: the hell they're not doing it a cross exam. You're right, 811 00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:56,960 Speaker 1: You're right about that, guys. There is more. Wan't you 812 00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:01,120 Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut eleven. We were describing 813 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:05,560 Speaker 1: it earlier where his longtime friend and law partner was 814 00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:09,880 Speaker 1: on the stand. He's very very believable that he describe 815 00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:14,160 Speaker 1: the money that he stole from Barrett. Barrett had had 816 00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:19,280 Speaker 1: a fire on a piece of property that he had 817 00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:24,839 Speaker 1: and it burned down a house, and there were proceeds 818 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:30,040 Speaker 1: for cleaning up, and then there were proceeds for various 819 00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:35,239 Speaker 1: and sundry things that were associated as well as the structure. 820 00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:40,120 Speaker 1: And we started looking at it and figured out that 821 00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:44,440 Speaker 1: the seventy five thousand dollars had been stolen, and then 822 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,560 Speaker 1: later on that there was an additional amount that never 823 00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,439 Speaker 1: went through there. How much was our additional amount two 824 00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,360 Speaker 1: hundred and seventy nine thousand according to this exhibit number. 825 00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,040 Speaker 1: I would say that was one of his closest friends. 826 00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:58,480 Speaker 1: One of his closest friends, that's who he ended up 827 00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:02,080 Speaker 1: getting Mozelle from Barrett was DNA colon cancer. This and 828 00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,600 Speaker 1: needed that money. Alex stole it anyway, right, I assume 829 00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,560 Speaker 1: he needed the money or Brandt. You've been in a 830 00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,160 Speaker 1: lot of courtrooms. I guarantee you the jury was shooting 831 00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:16,040 Speaker 1: daggers at Alex Murdog right about then. No, absolutely, Nancy. 832 00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:21,360 Speaker 1: And if he don't, I can't predict this guy's behavior. 833 00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:25,000 Speaker 1: But if he decides to get on the stand and 834 00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:32,960 Speaker 1: the prosecution is allowed to under cross examination going to 835 00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,239 Speaker 1: things like that, it's going to be disastrous for the 836 00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,800 Speaker 1: defense and it would be something thats never recover from 837 00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,960 Speaker 1: because there's no telling what Murdog will say, and then 838 00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,839 Speaker 1: it can be cross examed on what he says out 839 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:50,719 Speaker 1: of the blue. Guys, One last thing I want you 840 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:56,320 Speaker 1: to hear. This is Mark Ball's reaction when he finds 841 00:53:56,360 --> 00:54:00,040 Speaker 1: out Alex Murdog has been shot in the head. I 842 00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:02,719 Speaker 1: had to take a listen to our cut twelve. The 843 00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,279 Speaker 1: storm was arriving again for Alec on September three, when 844 00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:09,080 Speaker 1: y'all confronted him, is that correct? I said yes, yes, 845 00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:11,640 Speaker 1: or then it was over? And then on September fourth, 846 00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,000 Speaker 1: what happened? What did you hear about eleven thirty twelve 847 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,360 Speaker 1: o'clock whatever time it was. I was on a tractor 848 00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:19,200 Speaker 1: and he called me and said, you're not gonna believe 849 00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,319 Speaker 1: what happened. And I thought. My first response was, don't 850 00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:26,239 Speaker 1: tell me that Jackass killed himself, and he said, no, 851 00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,160 Speaker 1: somebody shot him. And I just said, I don't believe that. 852 00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,200 Speaker 1: You don't believe that. A lot of people followed right away, 853 00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:35,400 Speaker 1: and oh my gosh, the real killers are back. Correct, 854 00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:37,719 Speaker 1: the chickens were home to rouse again for Alec and 855 00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:39,960 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, he's a victim again. Correct. I 856 00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:42,160 Speaker 1: went to the scene. I went straight to the scene, 857 00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:45,320 Speaker 1: but I didn't I didn't believe it. I said, I 858 00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,680 Speaker 1: don't I don't buy it. And we walked up towards 859 00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:51,719 Speaker 1: the car and I think I said, it's got run 860 00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:54,960 Speaker 1: flat tires, and then tires not flat. Before we got 861 00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,800 Speaker 1: to it, Ronnie said it doesn't even have a spare. 862 00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,239 Speaker 1: And then when we got up to it, you could 863 00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,520 Speaker 1: see it at nine o'clock where somebody stab at the time, 864 00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,680 Speaker 1: you know, when he said that on the stand and Emerson, 865 00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:12,239 Speaker 1: I asked myself, did that jackass kill himself? I mean, 866 00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:17,359 Speaker 1: everything changed when Murdog got shot in the head. It 867 00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:19,759 Speaker 1: was a little skin mark on the side of his head. 868 00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:23,560 Speaker 1: And I still say if he had wanted to get 869 00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:27,440 Speaker 1: shot and killed for those insurance proceeds to go to 870 00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:31,600 Speaker 1: buster his remaining son, he would have been shot and killed. 871 00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:35,320 Speaker 1: This was a ploy I say, not to make people 872 00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,640 Speaker 1: feel sorry for him, I mean to take attention off 873 00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,600 Speaker 1: of all of his theft, but to suggest the real 874 00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:45,160 Speaker 1: killer was out there and now finally coming for Alex Murdog. Well, 875 00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:47,520 Speaker 1: two things on that. One is, you know I've spoken 876 00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,960 Speaker 1: with Eddie Smith, cousin Eddie before he went to jail 877 00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,959 Speaker 1: where he is still, you know, and when I talked 878 00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:56,960 Speaker 1: to him, I mean he said, and he said this 879 00:55:57,239 --> 00:55:59,960 Speaker 1: a couple of times. You know, if I was gonna, 880 00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:01,759 Speaker 1: if I wanted to shoot somebody, I would have shot 881 00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:04,120 Speaker 1: him like in other words, I wouldn't have missed if 882 00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:07,000 Speaker 1: that was the case, which was an interesting thing to say. 883 00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:10,360 Speaker 1: But also, you know, if you were gonna, if you 884 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:12,520 Speaker 1: were gonna have somebody write a book about all of 885 00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:15,200 Speaker 1: this that has happened with Alec Murdoch, would Mark Ball 886 00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:17,120 Speaker 1: not be your person to write the book. I mean, 887 00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:21,000 Speaker 1: he literally has the details that are like I'm on 888 00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:24,680 Speaker 1: a tractor. I mean the jury immediately goes oh, he's 889 00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:26,560 Speaker 1: sitting on a tractor, he's on his farm, he's a 890 00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:28,759 Speaker 1: couple of miles away from Mozelle, and he gets the word. 891 00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:33,120 Speaker 1: It's so descriptive. You have to believe everything that Mark 892 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,239 Speaker 1: Ball's sang. And when he says it, he's kind of 893 00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:39,240 Speaker 1: you're kind of living through this experience with him again. 894 00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:42,799 Speaker 1: He's obviously not only grieving over the fact that he's 895 00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:45,279 Speaker 1: lost half of this family that he adored, he also 896 00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,960 Speaker 1: lost the man, which he says very clearly, I didn't 897 00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,720 Speaker 1: know him. It was hard to believe that the defense 898 00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,040 Speaker 1: had him up on the sand when he said that, 899 00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:59,160 Speaker 1: he goes after September fourth everything changed, or September second, 900 00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:03,200 Speaker 1: not even the fourth, that everything changed, that everything was 901 00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:07,200 Speaker 1: torn down. His legacy, his his his life, his firm, 902 00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:11,120 Speaker 1: his everything that he believed about Alec Murdoch was was gone. 903 00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,800 Speaker 1: And I mean, well, if he could lie about doctor 904 00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,640 Speaker 1: Michel du Pree, what else is he lying about doctor 905 00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:22,120 Speaker 1: Michelle Dupree. I remember very clearly the moment I heard 906 00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:26,200 Speaker 1: Alex Murdock had been shot, and I didn't know how 907 00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:29,680 Speaker 1: it happened. I didn't know the story, but I knew 908 00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:34,760 Speaker 1: he was somehow involved in his own shooting, and I 909 00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:38,560 Speaker 1: at the time thought it had been Jerry rigged to 910 00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:43,160 Speaker 1: somehow make it look like the killer of Paul and 911 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:47,440 Speaker 1: Maggie had come after him and lo and behold, while 912 00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:50,840 Speaker 1: they were riddled with bullets, he managed to walk off 913 00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:54,160 Speaker 1: with a scrape on the head. And that changed everything 914 00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,080 Speaker 1: because we knew he was lying, and like Ann Emerson 915 00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,400 Speaker 1: just said, if he would lie about that, what will 916 00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:06,120 Speaker 1: he lie about? Exactly. Nancy and very many people believed 917 00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,880 Speaker 1: when they first heard it, without knowing the circumstances, that 918 00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,400 Speaker 1: this was some type of a ruse. It just didn't 919 00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:14,280 Speaker 1: make sense. And as facts began to come out about 920 00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,320 Speaker 1: the no flat tire and all of that, it was 921 00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:19,800 Speaker 1: clearly evident that this was something that he had probably 922 00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:23,320 Speaker 1: orchestrated to take as a diversion off of him, to 923 00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:26,040 Speaker 1: buy him time or to make people feel sorry for him, 924 00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:28,480 Speaker 1: that now somebody else is after him, just as they 925 00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:32,800 Speaker 1: were after Maggie and Paul too, Ted Williams joining us. Ted. 926 00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:37,040 Speaker 1: You know, in every trial there is that one moment 927 00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:42,120 Speaker 1: that changes everything. In Simpson, it was the glove that 928 00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:46,400 Speaker 1: I still can tend fit. At every trial there's a 929 00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:51,600 Speaker 1: moment where everything changes and The thing here is you 930 00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:55,040 Speaker 1: can't even blame the state for the roadside shooting evidence 931 00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:58,960 Speaker 1: to come in because the defense opened the door. And 932 00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:01,880 Speaker 1: I really believe that that is going to efface this 933 00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,280 Speaker 1: jury because they will see if he will lie about 934 00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:09,000 Speaker 1: that and set up that shooting. Are we going to 935 00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:12,680 Speaker 1: believe him about what happened in the dog kennel? You know, Nancy, 936 00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:18,560 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I'm of the same mindset that 937 00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,840 Speaker 1: that is significant that he's a liar. It is no 938 00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:24,240 Speaker 1: doubt about it that this man is a jury he's 939 00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:28,560 Speaker 1: a thief. But the question is has the prosecution in 940 00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:33,160 Speaker 1: its case proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Alex Murdock 941 00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:38,040 Speaker 1: murdered Maggie and his son Paul, And I don't know 942 00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:42,480 Speaker 1: if they have done that. The best evidence they have 943 00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:47,840 Speaker 1: in this case is that video at eight forty four 944 00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:54,280 Speaker 1: putting Alex, Paul, and Maggie in the same location at 945 00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:59,160 Speaker 1: the same time, and believing that from their own evidence 946 00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:03,919 Speaker 1: that she was killed and Paul was killed shortly thereafter. 947 01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:07,480 Speaker 1: That is the best evidence. That's where they're gonna have 948 01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:11,520 Speaker 1: to focus their circumstantial evidence case. Everything else in this 949 01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:15,520 Speaker 1: case is pretty weak. I must believe I say at 950 01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:19,560 Speaker 1: this stage, unfortunately, well I'm hearing in my ear like 951 01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:23,240 Speaker 1: it or not, that Ted Williams is actually getting the 952 01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:27,640 Speaker 1: last word. He is, because everybody's heading back in the courthouse, 953 01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,840 Speaker 1: so we are too. Everybody, thank you for being with us. 954 01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:34,120 Speaker 1: We're heading straight back into the courtroom to see what 955 01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:39,520 Speaker 1: the defense is gonna pull out of their sleeve next. Goodbye, everybody,