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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: its affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Monday, November seventeenth, and we

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Speaker 2: have a mega stack knight of headlines. Will the Epstein

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Speaker 2: files finally be released? Tomorrow? Allegedly is the day. Congress

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Speaker 2: votes tomorrow, as dozens of Epstein survivors gather on Capitol Hill,

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Speaker 2: and in a major reversal, President Trump says Republicans should

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Speaker 2: vote for the release of all documents and that he

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Speaker 2: will in fact sign off on any legislation compelling the

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Speaker 2: Department of Justice to do so, which is major. So

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Speaker 2: tomorrow is the day, so buckle up, everybody. And also

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Speaker 2: later in the show, we have a very special guest

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Speaker 2: with us Chelsea Terseovich. She's actually a listener of the show,

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Speaker 2: and she reached out and shared her personal story of

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Speaker 2: abuse and really encouraged us to look into a case

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Speaker 2: that ends up being one of the most significant military

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Speaker 2: cases and frankly cover ups in recent years. And she

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Speaker 2: lives to tell the tale and is joining us tonight

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Speaker 2: to do so. And listen. This is one of those

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Speaker 2: nights that the questions should keep on coming. So jump

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Speaker 2: in join the conversation eight eight eight three one Crime

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Speaker 2: again eight eight eight three one Crime, or you can

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Speaker 2: always leave us a talk back on the iHeartRadio app.

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Speaker 3: Listen.

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Speaker 2: We are on the brink. It is the eve of

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Speaker 2: potentially one of the most significant times for victims in

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Speaker 2: modern history.

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Speaker 3: I'll go that far as to say it's so.

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Speaker 2: This is a criminal investigation that just needs to be

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Speaker 2: seen through. So here's to transparency. I feel confident and

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Speaker 2: hopeful that it's coming.

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Speaker 3: I do, I do.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna air on the side of pure hope, and

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Speaker 2: as I do that, just as a heads up, I'm

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Speaker 2: Stephanie Leidecker here, of course with my favorite too True crime. Ladies,

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and Body move in and as always we

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Speaker 2: have Taha, Sam and Adam in the control room keeping

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Speaker 2: us all in check and they are waiting to hear

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Speaker 2: from you.

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Speaker 3: Hi, ladies, how do you think?

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Speaker 2: What do you think?

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Speaker 3: Girl?

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Speaker 4: I love your optimism, I mean I love your optimism,

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Speaker 4: but you know me, you know negative Nancy.

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Speaker 3: Bad mood.

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Speaker 5: Body.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 3: You are not in a bad mood. You're just the realist.

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Speaker 4: I just, I just I just know that you know

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Speaker 4: the Trump is saying, go ahead, and you know, vote yes, right,

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Speaker 4: And I do predict that the Republicans will vote yes

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Speaker 4: tomorrow along with the Democrats.

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Speaker 3: But then it'll be like, oh, wait a minute.

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Speaker 4: Can't do it because of this now, can't release them,

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Speaker 4: can't do it even though.

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Speaker 3: We want to, even though if only I could.

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Speaker 2: If I were right, That's what I That's what I

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Speaker 2: kind of think, in Courtney, what do you think, well,

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Speaker 2: pragmatic Patsy here and are both very.

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Speaker 6: Unopeful and slightly unfair. I mean, I think I love

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Speaker 6: what you're saying. And if wishing made it true, then

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Speaker 6: I really I hope it is.

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Speaker 3: It would be the right thing.

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Speaker 6: I think that a hundred percent, this new investigation, which

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Speaker 6: we'll get into into Bill Clinton, will now be an

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Speaker 6: active investigation. Nothing will be released, and that will be it.

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Speaker 6: And this dog and pony show. Trump said, I'm telling

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Speaker 6: Republicans to vote now.

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Speaker 3: Guess what.

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Speaker 6: They all already went ahead and said they were going

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Speaker 6: to vote anyway. So it's a big dog and pony show.

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Speaker 6: In my estimation.

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Speaker 2: So you think that was an optics play, meaning yes,

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Speaker 2: President Trump realized that maybe many of the Republics that

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Speaker 2: he felt would not vote for the release of those

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Speaker 2: files had indicated that they would, and therefore, to air

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Speaker 2: quotes save face, he is saying, oh, he go for it,

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Speaker 2: Go for it, go for it.

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Speaker 3: I give you my permission. And then look, you know.

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Speaker 2: Like there are others involved. And let's just remember I

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Speaker 2: think a really key thing here. This is a criminal investigation.

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Speaker 2: This is not a political one, right, So let's not

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Speaker 2: get confused by the noise of Republican democrat. Republican democrat

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Speaker 2: like down the middle is where reason begins, and we're

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Speaker 2: just looking for justice for something and also for it

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Speaker 2: to stop, because if what is being described as accurate,

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Speaker 2: it is likely still happening real time. This is a

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Speaker 2: world wide operation allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, the likes of which

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Speaker 2: we have not seen, and maybe justice will finally see

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Speaker 2: its day, and I predict that that might be tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: I hope you're right. I would love to be wrong

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Speaker 3: about this.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so let's do it. Like listen, by the way,

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Speaker 2: we have to talk about coming in right now. Let's

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Speaker 2: go to that.

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Speaker 7: Hello, ladies, just getting caught up from being away for

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Speaker 7: a while, and I'm listening to the show, and I

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Speaker 7: just I don't understand why, you know, Trump is releasing records.

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Speaker 7: We've just had a big record.

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Speaker 8: Dump, and nobody seems to be outraged by the Obama,

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Speaker 8: Bush and Clinton administrations when they could have released all

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Speaker 8: this information too, And I just don't understand the double standard.

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Speaker 3: By the way, don't get it twisted.

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Speaker 2: I'm outraged, am outraged for anyone in any party who

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Speaker 2: has participated.

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Speaker 3: Or cocks on both their houses, cocks on both their houses.

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Speaker 2: Yes, if anyone had knowledge or assisted in a cover

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Speaker 2: up or even worse participated, yes, of course, justice should

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Speaker 2: be done. And I think that's a big piece of it,

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Speaker 2: right we were just talking about it. Trump has now

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Speaker 2: suggested or ordered the DOJ to really look into Bill Clinton,

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Speaker 2: saying that there were some you know, real heavy dealings

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Speaker 2: between Epstein and Clinton, and then that should be the

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Speaker 2: focus of the investigation. By the way, high five, if

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Speaker 2: that's the case, and if Bill Clinton's in the thick

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Speaker 2: of it, he too should be brought to justice. This

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Speaker 2: is a nonpartisan clean wash of anybody who has been

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Speaker 2: a part of something so disgusting, who has bought thousands

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Speaker 2: of women so much heartache and would continue to do so.

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Speaker 4: But we have to we have to be real too.

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Speaker 4: The House Committee released the files, not Trump. That's number one, fair, right,

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Speaker 4: number two? You know Trump campaigned on this. This was

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Speaker 4: like he riled everybody up. And you know, I had

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Speaker 4: forgotten about the Epstein files until Trump's are running, do

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Speaker 4: you know what I mean?

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Speaker 5: Like it?

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Speaker 4: It faded into obscurity and he brought He's the one

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Speaker 4: who brought it up.

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Speaker 3: So let's go.

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Speaker 6: And that's I mean, that's why, that's why. Yeah, And

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Speaker 6: you ask a fair point. But Obama actually wasn't president

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Speaker 6: once Jeffrey Ebstein was arrested on a federal level, So

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Speaker 6: the question can be asked about Biden. Is a fair

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Speaker 6: is one hundred percent fair? But anyway, you asked specifically

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Speaker 6: about all But I think that's the answer to He

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Speaker 6: was arrested when Obama was president, wasn't he? But the

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Speaker 6: I mean, it was an open investigation at that point.

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Speaker 6: You can't release stuff when it's an open investigation. Excuse me,

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Speaker 6: the excuse or restues tomorrow.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: He was arrested in July of twenty nineteen. And yeah, so.

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Speaker 4: Obama wouldn't have been able to release the files even

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Speaker 4: if he wanted to because it was an open investigation

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Speaker 4: at that time. And then tomorrow after they vote yes,

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Speaker 4: which I predict they will to you know, release these files.

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Speaker 4: We're going to hear. Oh, sorry, you know, we're looking

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Speaker 4: into Bill Clinton's activities with the you know, Epstein.

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Speaker 3: We can't release files. So let's discuss that.

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Speaker 2: Can we pause on that point for one quick second

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Speaker 2: because I think it's such a good one. Two things

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Speaker 2: that I think we're not talking enough about. Number One,

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Speaker 2: you go back in time, yes, Obama, great question. Right,

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Speaker 2: So chargers were in fact being filed even back when

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Speaker 2: Bush was present, and the state charges against Jeffrey Epstein happened.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, exactly in two thousand and seven, two thousand

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Speaker 2: and eight.

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Speaker 3: That's up for debate. He got a sweetheart deal. Why.

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Speaker 2: I think the fact is we're saying that because of

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Speaker 2: the Glaine Maxwell investigation, that case was open, and oftentimes

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Speaker 2: in open investigations we get told this A lot files

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Speaker 2: are therefore not released because there it's an open investigation.

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Speaker 2: This happens in a lot of our current cases that

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Speaker 2: we're working on. So cut to this past Saturday, when

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Speaker 2: Trump orders the Department of Justice to look at Bill Clinton.

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Speaker 2: Does that mean he has now opened an investigation and

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Speaker 2: therefore it is ongoing and therefore files cannot be released because.

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Speaker 3: It's an open investigation.

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Speaker 2: Do you follow?

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Speaker 3: Is that like a loophole in the making.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so the US attorney, so our girl, Pam Bondi,

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Speaker 6: she was ordered to launch an federal investigation. So it

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Speaker 6: is an investigation into Epstein's associates and specifically Clinton. A

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Speaker 6: lot of critics what they're saying is that the potential

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Speaker 6: implications are under US law, ongoing federal investigations can provide

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Speaker 6: legal grounds for the DOJ Department of Justice to withhold

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Speaker 6: certain documents from public disclosure.

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Speaker 2: So on the one hand, Scots say, yes, release it,

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Speaker 2: I'll sign anything, and on the other you'll say, oh,

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Speaker 2: and at the same time, in a parallel universe, I've

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Speaker 2: also ordered an investigation that would make it an open investigation,

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Speaker 2: and therefore those files would have to be blocked even

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Speaker 2: if I'm giving the order to release them. So welcome

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Speaker 2: to the loop. Right, and by the way, let's take

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Speaker 2: a pause on Bill Clinton. A little walk down Memory Lane.

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Speaker 2: So it has been always talked about that. In Jeffrey

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Speaker 2: Epstein's one of his many lavish homes, there was a

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Speaker 2: painting kind of like a as you would imagine in

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Speaker 2: like a palace, like an oil painting of someone, and

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Speaker 2: that painting was of Bill Clinton wearing a blue dress

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Speaker 2: and heels in that blue dress being kind of a nod,

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Speaker 2: a disgusting nod to Monica Lewinsky in the incident with

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Speaker 2: her giving him oral sex in the Oval office. So

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Speaker 2: that was something that was always kind of known. And

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Speaker 2: now there's also been some emails that seem to imply

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Speaker 2: about a person named Bubba and the conspiracy chatter. Maybe

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Speaker 2: it's not even conspiracy. The chatter online on all sides is, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's President Clinton or former President Clinton. We don't know.

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Speaker 2: Epstein's brother came out and said, no, no, Bubba's a horse. Okay,

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Speaker 2: But the email basically says that doesn't make it any better.

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Speaker 2: With the email, the direct quote, Courtney, I know you

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Speaker 2: have this probably more in front of you than I do.

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Speaker 3: Oh the direct yea quote.

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Speaker 6: The email was from Mark to Jeffrey, so brother to

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Speaker 6: Jeffrey Epstein saying, ask him if putin has the photos

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Speaker 6: of Trump blowing bubba, so that is what the words were.

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Speaker 3: Could it be hubba bubba, bubble gum?

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Speaker 5: I don't know, Oh, like the gum is listen.

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Speaker 4: Both options seem absurd, Yeah, absolutely absurd to me. That

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Speaker 4: you know it could be Clinton or horse like that

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Speaker 4: is ridiculous to me.

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Speaker 2: But it doesn't disprove the fact that Clinton may have

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Speaker 2: been involved, right, we don't know. That's why we need

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Speaker 2: to release these files again. Let it rip whoever has

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Speaker 2: been either participating and I guess that's a bigger question,

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Speaker 2: whether you participated versus covered it up, versus had knowledge

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Speaker 2: of it and chose to look the other way?

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Speaker 3: Is that a crime?

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Speaker 2: Okay, I guess the overarching question.

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Speaker 4: I do think that knowledge of the crime necessarily isn't

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Speaker 4: a crime, but covering it up, actively covering it up

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Speaker 4: is a crime.

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Speaker 3: Like if you.

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Speaker 4: Have not right, if you know something and just you

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Speaker 4: just be quiet about it. I don't know if that's

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Speaker 4: a crime, but if you're actively covering something up, then yeah,

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Speaker 4: that would be like obstruction of justice.

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Speaker 2: And if you know about something that's happening that is

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Speaker 2: affecting thousands of young women and it's with somebody who

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Speaker 2: you have some association with, whether it's an ex best

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Speaker 2: friend or a current friend, or a loose person that

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Speaker 2: you do business with. And you also know that there

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Speaker 2: may be upward of a billion dollars in transactions being

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Speaker 2: flagged by various banks that may in fact involve this

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Speaker 2: person that you know about. You're not participating in it,

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Speaker 2: but you know about it. And that also involves potentially

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Speaker 2: world leaders, and that potentially involves policy that affects the

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Speaker 2: United States.

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Speaker 3: What that he I don't know. I don't know if

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Speaker 3: that's crime. I mean, would I don't know. Is it

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Speaker 3: a morality? Is I don't know, Yeah, I'd be kidous.

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Speaker 6: Honestly, we should put this on the list for Jared

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Speaker 6: Faar And because I don't know if government officials are

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Speaker 6: mandated reporters in a capacity. So in general, if I

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Speaker 6: knew of but did not, I was not covering up

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Speaker 6: a crime, but I was aware of a crime.

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Speaker 3: Even the one you mentioned.

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Speaker 6: I don't believe that I did anything that's not easy.

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Speaker 3: Unless I'm questioned and lie about it right right, then

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Speaker 3: it's flying. Then it's a obstruction of justice? Or is it?

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Speaker 2: If you're calling it straight up a hoax or if

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Speaker 2: you're accepting money or financial gain or any influence politically speaking,

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Speaker 2: in the world, whether that's from who now, whoever, And

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Speaker 2: again we're not world leaders and we're not politicians, so

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Speaker 2: I don't know. But what's the end game. I have

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Speaker 2: to assume knowing all the players, whether it's Clinton, whether

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Speaker 2: it's you know, I don't even want to say it,

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Speaker 2: but whether you know it's President Trump had knowledge, whether

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Speaker 2: whoever the people are that whoever knew about it, and

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Speaker 2: that therefore affects policy that we're living real time.

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Speaker 3: I think that's really major.

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Speaker 2: And if we also know that that is happening on

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Speaker 2: a world scale with young women real time, that is

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Speaker 2: something that is also a crime of we have to

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Speaker 2: stop it from happening. In continuing. This isn't just ending.

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Speaker 2: You know, we've heard Gailey Maxwell just got to transfer

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Speaker 2: into a cushy situation and into the dark of night.

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Speaker 2: Why if there is nothing there, why is she getting

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Speaker 2: preferential treatment? Why has there been so much hush money

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Speaker 2: given up by everyone and everyone, including JP Morgan, including

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Speaker 2: a Bank of America, Deutsche Bank, you name it, the list,

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Speaker 2: it's twenty banks. How is that not a smoking gun

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Speaker 2: to something. I don't think there's like a fancy list

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Speaker 2: of pedophiles, let's be clear. But if there is knowledge

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Speaker 2: of a larger ring and people that are currently in

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Speaker 2: office are a part of that or previously were, that's

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Speaker 2: a problem.

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Speaker 9: It is.

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Speaker 4: Well, we're going to continue this conversation about it obscene,

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Speaker 4: because we're not done. And what host Meghan Kelly recently

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Speaker 4: said about Jeffrey Epstein and later a military officer accused

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Speaker 4: of terrorizing.

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Speaker 10: Women for years, one of the victims is here with us.

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Speaker 10: Keep it right here, True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and body move in on the eve of

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Speaker 2: what could be one of the most significant watershed moments

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Speaker 2: for victims everywhere, and I remain really hopeful that that's

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Speaker 2: the case. We definitely want to hear from you if

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Speaker 2: you want to jump in and leave us at talkback

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Speaker 2: or hit us up on our socials at True Crime

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Speaker 2: Tonight's show on Instagram and TikTok, or at True Crime

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Speaker 2: Tonight on Facebook. We have another talkback right now.

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Speaker 11: Hi, this is Brenda from Alabama. I am really enjoying

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Speaker 11: the show, but I'm just really confused the victims from

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Speaker 11: the stupid, horrible epsteine. Why can they not just start

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Speaker 11: viewing the names of the violators. I don't know, maybe

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Speaker 11: there's some weird legal things, but anyway, that's it. Thanks all.

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Speaker 3: Great question, A really good question. We all think.

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Speaker 2: We all asked the exact same question multiple times. I

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Speaker 2: think I can jump in, Yeah, the number one, please

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Speaker 2: go please, it's deadly. I think it is really really dangerous.

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Speaker 2: Number one First and foremost. I think in this particular case,

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Speaker 2: given the high profile names in world, leaders and influencers

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Speaker 2: that have maybe the deepest pockets in all the land,

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Speaker 2: there could be a hit on your back first and foremost,

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Speaker 2: so danger being the first one. And then body, I

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Speaker 2: know you had a few more.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think also too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they can go ahead and name names of people

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Speaker 4: they know, right, but it goes so much deeper, right,

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Speaker 4: and they might not know the financier of this person,

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Speaker 4: and who provide this yacht, and who you know scratched

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Speaker 4: this guy's back to get the plane ride, and you know,

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Speaker 4: things like that that just go a lot deeper and

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Speaker 4: number three, they might get sued too, right, like information,

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Speaker 4: and it needs to come from an official source, like

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Speaker 4: an unimpeachable source. And that currently right now is the

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Speaker 4: Department of Justice and all the court records and the FBI.

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Speaker 4: Right those are the houses the house, yep, right exactly.

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Speaker 4: So I think that's why the totality of everything, when

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Speaker 4: you add it all up, it is why they're not

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Speaker 4: releasing names. But I think they might threaten to. I

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Speaker 4: think they have threatened to talk, yeah, to talk about

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Speaker 4: the names they do know, yes, and those are the

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Speaker 4: people that they interacted with, and you know, things like that.

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Speaker 4: But we're not going to get, you know, the nitty

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Speaker 4: gritty details of the bigger picture unless this comes from

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Speaker 4: those agencies.

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Speaker 2: And keep in mind, the amount of hush money that's

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Speaker 2: been pushed out usually is created for a non disclosure form,

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Speaker 2: So we say this all the time. It's called an NBA,

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Speaker 2: and those non disclosure forms basically say, hey, you sign

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Speaker 2: here in exchange for some cash and you hush. You

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Speaker 2: can never speak about this. It didn't happen, right. So

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Speaker 2: we've seen this play out many many times, specifically to Trump.

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Speaker 2: For example, Stormy Daniels back in the day. Remember there

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Speaker 2: was you know, Michael Cohen, his personal attorney. He ended

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Speaker 2: up going to jail because he paid hush money to

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Speaker 2: Stormy Daniels that allegedly Trump reimbursed him for.

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Speaker 3: So that's a big piece of it.

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Speaker 2: Having a non disclosure release and then you talk, you

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Speaker 2: could be legally, you know, liable for a lot of

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Speaker 2: money that many of these survivors frankly don't have.

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Speaker 3: That's the first thing.

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Speaker 2: Secondly, they've been saying it for decades and no one

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Speaker 2: believes them.

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Speaker 3: That's the second piece of it.

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Speaker 2: How about the fact that nobody ever listens anyways. So

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Speaker 2: why would you put your family and your friends, your children,

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Speaker 2: your significant other on the front line and name big names,

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Speaker 2: which the names even we're talking about tonight are pretty real,

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Speaker 2: that is midgor And why would you put a target

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Speaker 2: on your back if no one's going to believe you anyway.

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Speaker 2: So I think the hope is that some of these

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Speaker 2: names that are appearing, and it's not just like there's

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Speaker 2: not like a weird list. By the way, let's just

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Speaker 2: be clear, there's not like a grocery list with fancy

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Speaker 2: names on it. And that's going to be the end

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Speaker 2: of it. This is a dump of information that's bang transactions, emails,

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Speaker 2: flight logs, things that we're not even thinking about, just

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Speaker 2: drives testimony that's been given at.

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Speaker 3: Various trials, and Perick's surveillance footage.

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Speaker 2: Remember, Epstein was said to have had cameras on every

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Speaker 2: inch of that island and as a result, he was

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Speaker 2: taking you know, footage, video footage of any of the ongoings.

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Speaker 2: And we all saw it when that place was busted,

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Speaker 2: they were all members, all the FBI was walking out

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Speaker 2: with all.

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Speaker 3: The paper crates.

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Speaker 2: With like all this stuff in it. It's the stuff

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Speaker 2: that's in that We always were told that that was

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Speaker 2: was like surveillance footage, that he had had the whole

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Speaker 2: place rigged and therefore was using that rigged material as

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Speaker 2: like a spy, as blackmail against world leaders. You know,

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Speaker 2: Prince Andrew taking the most recent hit and being absolved

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Speaker 2: of any of his duties in the royal family. And

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Speaker 2: there's been a call for a conviction or at least

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Speaker 2: some criminal charges to be brought up against Prince Andrew

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Speaker 2: in the wake of this new information. He's one of many,

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Speaker 2: and I think we're all just saying enough is enough.

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Speaker 2: Whoever has been involved whoever knows about this, whoever's been

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Speaker 2: pushing it aside, whether it was this administration, the last administration,

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Speaker 2: the last five administrations, right, bring it.

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Speaker 4: Like I've been saying, this is mutually a short destruction, right, correct? Well,

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Speaker 4: how is that term? A lot and a man? Like

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Speaker 4: you know, there's one thing about like Russia has nukes

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Speaker 4: and we have nukes? Right, why aren't we know during

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Speaker 4: the Cold War? Like why we just take each other out? Well,

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Speaker 4: because it's mutually short destruction, and it's the same concept

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Speaker 4: with this. I think I think that we're going to

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Speaker 4: find that, you know, Democrats over here and Republicans over

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Speaker 4: here and independent libertarians over here, you know, like I

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Speaker 4: don't think party lines matter, no.

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Speaker 3: Because it's an exile. It's a crime, period.

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Speaker 2: And I find it's so assuring and reassuring that regardless

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Speaker 2: of what side of the aisle you're on, even if

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Speaker 2: you know it seemed as though maybe some Republicans were

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Speaker 2: not going to vote in favor of the release of

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Speaker 2: the files, except for say Marjorie Taylor Green and you

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Speaker 2: know a handful of others. It does seem like there's

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Speaker 2: going to be a pretty strong showing tomorrow because this

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Speaker 2: is legacy stuff. You're not voting for politics. You're voting

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Speaker 2: for justice and inhumane treatment against young women. Anybody who

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Speaker 2: has a sister or daughter, or a mother, or any

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Speaker 2: woman who.

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Speaker 6: Loves or a conscience, and anyone who wants to be

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Speaker 6: on the right side of history. Yeah right, I mean, well,

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Speaker 6: they're all going to be on the right side of history.

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Speaker 4: They're all going to look great. They're all going to say, well,

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Speaker 4: we try, we tried, you know, we all voted yes.

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Speaker 4: So they're going to look like they were on the

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Speaker 4: right side of history.

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Speaker 6: I think, I think, But that darn recently opened investigation

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Speaker 6: into former.

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Speaker 3: President looking into Bill Clinton.

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Speaker 6: If only, if only, But again, we'll see and listen

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Speaker 6: to Stephanie.

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Speaker 2: I hope you're very stormy Daniels right now. Where she

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Speaker 2: We haven't seen her, and I haven't Where's Bill Clinton?

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Speaker 2: I haven't seen him yet, popping into the conversation.

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Speaker 5: Away for a while.

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Speaker 12: But I need someone to talk some sense into me

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Speaker 12: because there's one thing I always worry about, and maybe

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Speaker 12: that's possible for it to happen, But is there a

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Speaker 12: chance that some of the files or documents, like there's

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Speaker 12: no chance that something could disappear or things could sort

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Speaker 12: of I don't know, of course.

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Speaker 2: Of course they can sure, and lots of things being redacted,

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Speaker 2: of course they can. And listen, we had mentioned this earlier.

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Speaker 2: By the way, Lisa Bryant, who's been on the show,

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Speaker 2: she directed the Filthy Rich documentary on Netflix that basically

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Speaker 2: exposes the Epstein case, as well as the one that

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Speaker 2: was a follow up about Guiley Maxwell. She's a friend

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Speaker 2: and a colleague and we worked together. She was on

438
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 2: the show speaking about her experience, even trying to go

439
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 2: to the island. And remember the front runner, the mean voice,

440
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,400
Speaker 2: Virginia Gufrey. She took her own life by suicide back

441
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 2: in April of this year, so interesting timing in the

442
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 2: big scheme of it all. She directed this PSA, this

443
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,439
Speaker 2: public service announcement, sorry for the acronym that you know.

444
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 2: It's getting distributed everywhere if you haven't seen it. It's

445
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 2: basically of many of the victims, including Haley who we

446
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 2: had on the show, Hailey Robson who was with us

447
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 2: last week, basically holding a photo of themselves at a

448
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 2: younger age when they were in fact targeted by Epstein himself.

449
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 2: And it's really touching and extremely powerful, and we love you,

450
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,639
Speaker 2: Lisa for the work that you're putting forward. And she's

451
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 2: going to Capitol Hill tonight, as is Hailey Robinson who

452
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 2: we've had on the show, and all of the girls,

453
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 2: and they claim that, yeah, yeah, if push comes to shove,

454
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,479
Speaker 2: as my mother would say, we're going to release our

455
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 2: list like this is not there is no getting out

456
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 2: of this. The walls are caving in, and that's pretty real, right,

457
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 2: So imagine forty plus women that are adults now who

458
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 2: are now going to Capitol Hill and are saying, despite

459
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 2: the fact that I'm putting my life in jeopardy, despite

460
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 2: the fact that I might lose my job, despite that

461
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,400
Speaker 2: I might be sued for everything I have, I am

462
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 2: willing to say it out loud if in fact, Congress

463
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 2: doesn't approve whatever said bill needs to happen for the

464
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 2: release of the files, or ultimately it goes to Trump

465
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 2: to sign off on. And I feel assured and encouraged

466
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 2: that he will for all the same reasons he claims

467
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 2: there's nothing in it, and okay, let's.

468
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 6: Go well, talking about being on the right side of

469
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 6: history of those survivors.

470
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,439
Speaker 3: Standing up and doing that, that's where.

471
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 12: Yeah, powerful that it's I mean, it's just the way

472
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 12: it shot everything. But then I just when I saw

473
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,239
Speaker 12: one of them saying fourteen years old, it just was

474
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 12: so triggering. And of course we mentioned Megan Kelly recently, but.

475
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, did you see this, Meghan Kelly?

476
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 5: Oh about that?

477
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 3: Yes, And we also want to hear you just took

478
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 3: over glasses. It's very serious. She is ready, she's rolling

479
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 3: up sleeves.

480
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 6: Listen, we'd love to hear your thoughts were at eighty

481
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 6: eight three one crime. This is true Crimestonight, I'm Courtney

482
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 6: Armstrong here as always with Stephanie Leidecker and with Buddy Moven,

483
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 6: and we're talking about the Epstein sexual assault and trafficking case.

484
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 3: Tell us what you think, Megan Kelly, she told us

485
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 3: what she thinks.

486
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 6: So she on her Serious XM podcast she questioned whether

487
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 6: Jeffrey Epstein qualifies as a pedophile, and her rationale was

488
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 6: he targets teens and not the really, really young children.

489
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 6: And this was said on the twelfth of November, five

490
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 6: days ago. Quote, he was into the barely legal type,

491
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,120
Speaker 6: like he liked fifteen year old girls. And I realized

492
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,479
Speaker 6: this is disgusting. I'm definitely not trying to make an

493
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 6: excuse for him. I'm just giving you facts. He wasn't

494
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 6: into like eight year olds. So she and what we

495
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 6: had said is split in hairs that should not be split.

496
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 6: It's insane, barely legal. Is illegal. They are children under

497
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 6: the age of eighteen, and the age of consent it

498
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 6: varies by state. It's a little bit complicated, but federally

499
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 6: it is eighteen. So I mean to say, are you

500
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 6: jumping into the.

501
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 12: Comment, why are you even saying that? And Lord and

502
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 12: body pointsed earlier we were talking about it. She did

503
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 12: remind me that Megan was saying, this is something she

504
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 12: heard someone else.

505
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 5: Say, so this wasn't necessarily what she was saying.

506
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 4: She started it with, you know, I know a guy

507
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 4: or I know someone who's in all this, and he

508
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 4: says and then she, you know.

509
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 5: She goes on to it. And what I kept waiting

510
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 5: at the end for her disgusting like I wanted her to.

511
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 3: I did too. I kept waiting waiting you.

512
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 12: Wouldn't say, like how horrific that this would happen, or

513
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 12: or I disagree, But she didn't, And I think that's

514
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 12: what made it. I mean, everything about what she said

515
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 12: was ridiculous and horrible, but not to even explain the

516
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 12: logic of why what this person is saying is horrible.

517
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: Well, she's just in case somebody didn't see it, Yeah,

518
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 2: and in case you didn't hear it. It was basically

519
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 2: on her show. Yeah, she was making that distinction. And

520
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 2: let me ask you this question if in fact, it

521
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: was only eight year olds being discussed, If forty eight

522
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 2: year olds were going to Capitol Hill tomorrow and a

523
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: thousand eight year olds had been swept up into this ring,

524
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 2: would the cover up still exist? Does it actually make

525
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: a difference whether they're eight fourteen. By the way, let's

526
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 2: call them all thirty years old. Let's say thirty year

527
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 2: old women that were in the exact same situation we're

528
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: talking about victims. Does that mean the gymnastics coach who

529
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: was molesting a fifteen sixteen gymnasts year old?

530
00:27:59,600 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 3: I should?

531
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 2: I mean the lives much longer than that. And again

532
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 2: I'm just jumping paraphrasing top of head. Forgive me if

533
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 2: the numbers are wrong, but they were young girls that

534
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 2: were of teen age. You can't tell me that that

535
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 2: is a distinction worth making. It makes every victim across

536
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 2: the land in any universe, I think a little bit mad.

537
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 2: And yeah, I guess there's being some kickback, but it's

538
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 2: dangerous because Meghan Kelly has you know, four million followers

539
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 2: or something like. That's a lot of influence. And what

540
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 2: is the distinction. What's the point that it makes it

541
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 2: a little bit more?

542
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:33,959
Speaker 3: Okay?

543
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 12: Yeah, there unless it's start us trying to maybe get

544
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 12: the public to think, okay.

545
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 5: Maybe if we perspect to this number, it's not as bad.

546
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 5: I don't know what the logic is. It doesn't make

547
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 5: n don't either.

548
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 3: But they're all children.

549
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 4: It doesn't matter that they're children minors. So you're seventeen,

550
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 4: you're you're a child.

551
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

552
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 6: What Megan Kelly did say was I think there is

553
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 6: a difference. There's a difference between a fifteen year old

554
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 6: and a five year old.

555
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: So that was and I don't think there's a different

556
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: I mean, I think I understand the difference, and I

557
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 2: understand the point she's making. But whether you're five, fifteen,

558
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: or twenty five, you can still be the victim of abuse.

559
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 3: By the way, you could be forty five, you can

560
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 3: be sixty five.

561
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 2: It's circumstance and opportunity and brainwashing and grooming and all

562
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 2: of the things. And I think that's why tomorrow was

563
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 2: so significant, because it might be the moment, a watershed

564
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 2: moment that gets recognized once and for all.

565
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 4: I feel like like this is like Watergate. We're on

566
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 4: that absolute water gate or something. Yes, yes, the nation.

567
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 3: Collectively is in a parking lot. Correct. Oh my god, Yes,

568
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 3: you're right.

569
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 2: That's a good way of putting it.

570
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 9: Wow.

571
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel really confident and well, I just feel

572
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 2: like I think we're all better than it, and I

573
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: think we can band together and make really good things happen.

574
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 2: And that's where I want to put my energy for

575
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 2: this exact moment of time.

576
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 4: Okay, well, I hope your energy contagious and that it

577
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 4: moves on to me because I have doubts, but I

578
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 4: hope you're right.

579
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 2: Listen, this is a busy b night, so we want

580
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: to hear your opinions. Prieze, sound off, We want to

581
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 2: hear all of it, help us understand and unpack. We're

582
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 2: in this together, So pull up your proverbial chair to

583
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 2: our proverbial kitchen table, because there's a lot to discuss,

584
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: and it's kind of divine timing in my humble opinion.

585
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: We have Chelsea Tersovich here with us now. Chelsea, she

586
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 2: reached out to us via DM as a listener many

587
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 2: months ago. We were just kind of kicking off the

588
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 2: show frankly, and you know, it was one of those

589
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: DMS that we received early on and we're like oof.

590
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 2: And she alerted us a to her experience but also

591
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 2: to a larger crime that had happened within the military

592
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: and kind of asked us to dig in and we've

593
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: been doing so. Courtney like jumped in head first, as

594
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: she always does, and it's one of those beautiful moments

595
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 2: that we get to be with you, Chelsea. It's so

596
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: wonderful to see you in person and see your face finally,

597
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 2: and you know, it's a really revealing thing to have

598
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 2: our community come together to say, Hey, I have a

599
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 2: story to share. And not only do I have a

600
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: story to share, but it's a really big one. Then

601
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 2: it's I have a story to share, and it's a

602
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 2: really big one that we've been digging into. And she's here.

603
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: And by the way, the night that you're here happens

604
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 2: to be a crazy night on the eve of what

605
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 2: could be one of the biggest nights prior to real

606
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: victim advocacy. The world can change, and I think the

607
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: world the kills just now for really we can do better,

608
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 2: and I think we can do better together. You know,

609
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 2: so as a as a centrist, as somebody who's right

610
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 2: down the millow who loves and really respects the military

611
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: so so much, we all do. Chelsea represents and Chelsea,

612
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 2: I won't say anymore. You know, Court, you can kind

613
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 2: of set up the backstory, but it really speak to

614
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 2: the true crime tonight community. And thank you for me.

615
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 9: Oh, thank you.

616
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, sincerely, Chelsea, Are you comfortable if we read part

617
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 6: of the message you sent that started this whole thing?

618
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 5: Okay?

619
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 6: So here's fine, Okay, perfect, here's the DM. Did you

620
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 6: guys ever hear about the recent conviction of Army Major

621
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 6: John Batt. He was only convicted of recent assaults and rapes,

622
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 6: but this behavior has been occurring for more than a decade.

623
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 6: I know because I was a victim who didn't say

624
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 6: anything and I had my run in with him around

625
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,959
Speaker 6: twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen. I know of at least four

626
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 6: other women at the same time as me as well.

627
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 6: His behavior is an example of what military women have

628
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 6: to deal with and usually in silence, sadly. So obviously

629
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 6: again we had to dig in because this is an issue.

630
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 6: And once we did started looking at the statistic, Chelsea,

631
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 6: you really opened up a world I was unaware of,

632
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 6: which makes me embarrassed.

633
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 3: But listen now.

634
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 2: Were same here. Thanks to you, Chelsea, we're learning.

635
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 9: Well, thank you guys. Yeah, it's timely too, because as

636
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 9: I mentioned Tataha the other day, there's actually a whole

637
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 9: new thing coming out right now where there's an Army

638
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 9: obg y N who is being charged with recording and

639
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 9: filming his patients for a long time. At least eighty

640
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 9: five so far have come forward. There's potentially for one

641
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 9: thousand over a thousand though potentially.

642
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, can you imagine? Can you imagine?

643
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 3: Yes? I guess yes, Chelsea.

644
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 9: Yeah. So yeah, it is sad to think about it,

645
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 9: and it is more common than people realized. So where

646
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 9: would you guys like to start?

647
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 6: Honestly, so I'd love I'm just going to lay out

648
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 6: for anyone who is in conversant to think taste that you.

649
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 3: I'd like to set the table.

650
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 6: So Jonathan Batt, he's decorated, he was a US Army

651
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 6: major West Point graduate, and he was accused by numerous

652
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 6: women of really violent sexual assaults. And this dates back

653
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 6: well in this instance, this case to twenty nineteen.

654
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 3: Of course, we know it dates back further.

655
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 6: After a multi year investigation, and it was sparked in

656
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,760
Speaker 6: part by post in a Facebook group called Army Dating

657
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 6: the Same Guy.

658
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 3: So Via hosts so via post from that.

659
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 6: Bat was court martialed at Fort Meade and Maryland and

660
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 6: then June of this year he was convicted on twenty

661
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,919
Speaker 6: counts involving eight victims. He was sentenced to fifty three

662
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 6: years in prison. And this has been one of the

663
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 6: most significant sexual assault prosecutions that have been brought under

664
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 6: the military's new independent Office of Special Trial Counsel. So

665
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 6: that is the broad strokes of what happened, and without

666
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 6: going into too much more, I just want to underline

667
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 6: that it was it was violent, it was awful what

668
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 6: he's been accused of, and it was many multiple women.

669
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 6: I don't know, why don't we start what I guess

670
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 6: what prompted you to reach out and tell us that

671
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 6: we're so grateful that you did.

672
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 9: Yeah, just all of the advocacy you guys do for

673
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 9: victims and like really bring attention to it. I thought

674
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 9: you guys would be a great platform to kind of

675
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 9: look into this and talk about it because it is

676
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 9: so common in the military to have sexual harassment, sexual assault,

677
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 9: mostly women, but men too, and there's just not enough

678
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 9: awareness outside of the military because we're kind of an

679
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 9: insular community, right, Like a lot of people know people

680
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 9: in the military, but don't know about the military until

681
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 9: you kind of meet one of us.

682
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 3: True true, so and can we start, oh, Glen step No.

683
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 2: I was just going to say, that's part of the culture, right,

684
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:05,439
Speaker 2: Like you have to really be insulated, and that's kind

685
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 2: of what you're trained to do, is to to keep

686
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 2: it quiet because you're you know, you're doing very important

687
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 2: things quietly.

688
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 4: And that's I guess part of the problem, right it

689
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 4: is how did you meet him? And like, were there

690
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 4: any in like what stood that right away?

691
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 9: Sure? So I met him either on bumble or hinge

692
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 9: I can't remember, or not hinge a hinder back then,

693
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 9: one of those, right, And I wasn't looking for anything serious.

694
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 9: I had just gotten out of a relationship. I had

695
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 9: also been through a divorce where a very abusive ex

696
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 9: partner who was also sexually abusive. So I was actually

697
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 9: dealing with my own PTSD at the time and not

698
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,479
Speaker 9: looking for anything, kind of reckless behavior on my part,

699
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 9: and so I met him with purely like I'm looking

700
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 9: for nothing. I don't want anything from you, and went

701
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,479
Speaker 9: over to his house in time and started to see

702
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 9: things like there were tampons in the bathroom, and I

703
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 9: was like, do you have a girlfriend or something? No, No, No,

704
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 9: I have a roommate.

705
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 5: She's a roommate.

706
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 9: She's out of town. And over time he actually he

707
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 9: was so arrogant. He would bring us all together. He'd

708
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 9: take us out on his boat, so it wouldn't just

709
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 9: be me and the actual girlfriend who'd been with for

710
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 9: a while, it'd be other women too, and so we

711
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 9: all would start talking and we kind of all figured

712
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 9: it out. I picked up on his manipulation a lot quicker,

713
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 9: probably because of my fighting senses on full alert with

714
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 9: my own trauma resngs going on, but I stuck around

715
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 9: longer than I should have. He was never physically abusive

716
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:42,800
Speaker 9: to me, but definitely put all of us in situations

717
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 9: that we wouldn't have gone to otherwise. Right, He was

718
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 9: very manipulative and coercive in that respect, So I do

719
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 9: think he's escalated over the years.

720
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 4: So this was this was prior to the things that

721
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 4: he was convicted for, right, So it's almost like it

722
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 4: kind of sounds like he was like building him self up,

723
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 4: like when he was you know, in the in your presence,

724
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 4: like he was platforming himself getting ready, like do you

725
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 4: know what I mean, like.

726
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 9: The build up, Oh, escalation, Yes, I thank you.

727
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 3: I couldn't think of a word.

728
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: True.

729
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 3: Wow.

730
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 4: Ok.

731
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 9: I found out much later that this is kind of

732
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 9: behavior he's had since West Point. He was always kind

733
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 9: of creepy at West Point, but couldn't put the finger

734
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 9: on it. The people who knew him, and then I

735
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 9: am friends with a physician assistant who was part of

736
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 9: his unit at one point, was like, oh yeah, no,

737
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 9: everyone knew he was kind of broady and creepy and

738
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 9: was doing like weird things, but we didn't know the

739
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 9: extent of it until this came out, So it was

740
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 9: kind of like known but not known, right, Like that

741
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 9: was there was a vibe and he's been escalating that

742
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 9: over the.

743
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 2: Years, which is interesting because again people are seeing it.

744
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 2: By the way, who hasn't been there Raise your hand

745
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 2: if you've ever been in a situation that you stayed

746
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:57,319
Speaker 2: too long with something that you had all the red

747
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 2: flags for, like trust your gut, but you know, we

748
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: want to explain things away, right, and especially if you're

749
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 2: just coming out of a traumatic relationship, you know you're

750
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 2: a little frankly desensitized and it emotionally exhausted and wiped out.

751
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 2: So you know, this is like tier one stuff that

752
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 2: you know, you could see how it can get past

753
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 2: the goal line pretty quickly, even for the smartest of

754
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 2: smart yep.

755
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 5: And that's the thing.

756
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 9: He went for very intelligent women, Like all of the

757
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 9: women that I met through him are very smart women.

758
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 9: But he was able to kind of manipulate the situation

759
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 9: in our responses and gaslight us. So, yeah, this is.

760
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 4: True crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking to crime all

761
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 4: the time. I'm body Moven and I'm here with Courtney

762
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 4: and Stephanie, and we are also lucky enough to be

763
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 4: joined by Chelsea, who is a victim, well a survivor.

764
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 4: Let's say of this as major a survivor.

765
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,359
Speaker 3: Let's say, yep, yes, can I ask you a question?

766
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 4: Let me Okay, you said that you would go on

767
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 4: these boats or whatever, and there would be other women.

768
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 3: What kind of things would you guys talk about?

769
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 4: Like didn't like if listen, if I was like dating

770
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 4: somebody and I showed up to our date or our

771
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 4: outing and there were like four other women there, I'd

772
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 4: be like, what's going on? Like did you guys like

773
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 4: figure out like what was going on?

774
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 9: Like I mean pretty quickly, he didn't really hide that

775
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 9: he was with other people, And for some of us

776
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 9: that wasn't an issue, like I didn't care that I

777
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 9: wasn't looking for anything right, but other were thinking it

778
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 9: was more one on one like him and them, And

779
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 9: so it kind of evolved, like our conversations at first

780
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 9: were kind of tentative and kind of feeling things out,

781
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 9: and then the more time you spent around each other,

782
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 9: it was like, oh, oh, so that's the kind of

783
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 9: relationship you have, Oh okay, And then over time, like

784
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 9: some of the other behaviors that he would have towards

785
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 9: us would start to be shared. So it took a

786
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 9: little while, and he think that was part of it,

787
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 9: but over time you can kind of be like, oh,

788
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 9: he's manipulating you in a similar way to me, but

789
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 9: just at a different time.

790
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 6: So so Chelsea, when the investigation became public, How did

791
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 6: did that change how you understood your own experience with

792
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 6: him or what was that like for you personally?

793
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 3: Chelsea.

794
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 9: So, I actually didn't know about it until one of

795
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 9: the women I knew through John here in Savannah where

796
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 9: we met, she reached out and shared it with me,

797
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,320
Speaker 9: And it was actually after he had been found guilty,

798
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 9: So I didn't even know any of this was happening

799
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 9: till after the fact. But it didn't surprise me. And

800
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 9: same thing for that woman when she sent me the article,

801
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 9: she was like, no surprise here, always a cree kind

802
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 9: of thing. So it definitely validated our experiences, but it

803
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 9: also it made me sad because to read the stories

804
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,320
Speaker 9: of some of the women because he got very violent

805
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 9: with some of these people, and like, it breaks my

806
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 9: heart that it got to that point with them, and

807
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 9: that they didn't have anywhere to go other than to

808
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 9: the police, right they were they didn't have any other options.

809
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 2: Really, And by the way, we talked about this a

810
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 2: bit last night too, So just imagine you're in the military,

811
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,240
Speaker 2: and by the way, there's listen there, it's always debated,

812
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 2: like should even women be in the military, Like you

813
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 2: want to like you have to be. You have to

814
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 2: be tough as nails, right, you have to you have

815
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 2: to show up and put out and do what you

816
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 2: are told to do. So nobody really wants to hear

817
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 2: whining and complaining and reporting and stuff, right, whether that's

818
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 2: ever said or is that an undercunch.

819
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,439
Speaker 3: Listen, we've seen a few good men back in the day.

820
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 6: You know.

821
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 2: That is like a little bit of the air quotes culture,

822
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 2: which is important stuff. Right, you have to be with

823
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 2: your unit. So it's hard for anyone male or female

824
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 2: sometimes at a job to speak out because you don't

825
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 2: want to lose it. Imagine now you're in the military

826
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 2: or there's some association, it's it's like so frowned upon

827
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 2: and that is a real tough wall to stand up against,

828
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 2: and therefore it goes unsaid and escalates and then yeah,

829
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 2: now there's women who he's being violent with and maybe

830
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 2: you know that. Thank goodness, he's been brought to justice,

831
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:12,240
Speaker 2: I guess to some extent.

832
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 3: Fifty years in prison, and that's not that's not nothing.

833
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,879
Speaker 9: That's not military prison as well.

834
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 2: It's also not nothing.

835
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, it's military prison that he's going to be

836
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:25,399
Speaker 9: at for fifty three years.

837
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 3: The Gulag, Isn't that what it's called? The Gulag?

838
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 5: Isn't that what I mean?

839
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 9: It's not pleasant, that's for sure.

840
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 3: It's not pleasant.

841
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 2: And that's not to the military to not messing around

842
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 2: with that, right. I think that's also a real cue

843
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 2: to women and you know survivors slash victims anywhere that

844
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 2: you know, Look, they're not messing around either. It's not

845
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: as black and white. And thank goodness, that's also your quotes.

846
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 3: A little hopeful.

847
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 4: I just was in formed the Gulag is actually Russian,

848
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 4: but okay, listen, it doesn't matter. It's just as bad, right,

849
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 4: military prison. I'm gonna call to go, and that's what

850
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 4: we're going to go with, because I just want to

851
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 4: I want to imagine that it's just terrible and awful

852
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 4: and he's suffering greatly in there and eating way.

853
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 9: I mean it's it's there's hard labor usually incorporated into

854
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 9: it as well. I only know this from a distance

855
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 9: because I haven't been there. I was an everstation there,

856
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 9: but yeah, it's not a very easy prison to be

857
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 9: a part of. And one other thing I wanted to

858
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 9: mention it wasn't just military women that were victims or survivors.

859
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 9: It's actually a bunch of people that weren't associated with

860
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 9: the military, civilian women as we call it, right, And

861
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 9: for them, they're going up against this officer in the

862
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 9: military who has all this seniority and cloud and all

863
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,839
Speaker 9: these things, and these in DC doing these jobs right,

864
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 9: and so that in itself is also scary, Like it's

865
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 9: one thing being in it, but it's also one thing

866
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 9: to be on the outside, and like what do you do, right?

867
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 9: Who do you go to if you're not even a

868
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 9: part of the military?

869
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 10: Wow?

870
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 4: Right?

871
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 2: And by the way, sometimes it's just like you know what,

872
00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 2: I'm just going to like eat it and just be

873
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 2: and go about my life and pick up the pieces

874
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,320
Speaker 2: on my own and save my dreams for when I sleep.

875
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,919
Speaker 2: But that's not how it works, right, Like trauma works

876
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 2: itself out in some way.

877
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 4: Right, Well, coming up at the top of the hour,

878
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 4: Chelsea thankfully is not going anywhere and coming up the

879
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 4: powerful work she's doing now to support other military women

880
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 4: and later, Brian Walsh's murder trial is finally moving ahead,

881
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 4: but his attorney's wantcher shielded from super key details about

882
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 4: his wife Keep her here.

883
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 3: True Crime Tonight.

884
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

885
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

886
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong, Body move in, Taha, Adam and Sam in

887
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 2: the control room on a really significant night. Happy Monday, everybody,

888
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,479
Speaker 2: and listen. If you've missed any of the first hour

889
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 2: of the show, No Sweat, you could always catch us

890
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: right after as a podcast. Big Day Tomorrow and all

891
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 2: things Epstein related, and really at its core, it's really

892
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 2: a look at influence and power and you know, things

893
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 2: being made quiet because of powerful places and and you

894
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 2: know the Epstein case. It's all things government, right, and

895
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 2: how do you really go up against something so huge?

896
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 2: And we have with us such a special person, Chelsea

897
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 2: Tersovich is with us. She's been a listener of the

898
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 2: show and reached out via DM sharing her story of

899
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 2: survival and really busting open a case for us that

900
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 2: we hadn't heard about in the military, where the accused

901
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 2: is now looking at fifty years behind bars. Military. By

902
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 2: the way, it's a military sentence, not easy. Yes, what

903
00:46:58,520 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 2: is it called a gulag?

904
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 4: Is that that's what when I when I was a

905
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 4: little girl and I was really bad because I was

906
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 4: a bad little girl.

907
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 3: My mom would always say, I'm sending you to the Gulag, and.

908
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,879
Speaker 4: I would, and I realized that I came to find

909
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 4: out it was prison, so I just I just called

910
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 4: bad prisons the Gulag.

911
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 3: That's fair, my mother used to make. Yeah, and listen.

912
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 2: This is a really oddly divinely timed night because again,

913
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,399
Speaker 2: the military is a place that we so value, right.

914
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 2: These are people who are putting their lives on the

915
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 2: line to defend us, and yet sometimes the inner circle

916
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 2: of that can also have some some issues because it's

917
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 2: hard to speak out right. So I think that's kind

918
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 2: of the theme of the night, and we don't have

919
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 2: all the answers. We're all kind of navigating it together

920
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 2: as a community. And that's why Chelsea being here is

921
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 2: so significant, because you know, she's just we're opening the convo.

922
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 2: So if you have a story you want to share

923
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 2: or something to add eight eight A to three one crime,

924
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 2: please join us or leave us a talkback or a

925
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,399
Speaker 2: dm us. We do get them, and we genuinely care

926
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:08,760
Speaker 2: and we're glad you're here in court. You can maybe

927
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 2: set the table for us as only you would say

928
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 2: yes so table, baby, that's right.

929
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 6: So the case again that Chelsea brought to us is

930
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 6: Jonathan Batt, and he was an or.

931
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 3: No, I guess he is not anymore. I'm sure he

932
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 3: was stripped. Yeah, he was a.

933
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 6: Decorated US Army major. He was a West Point graduate,

934
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 6: and he was also accused by numerous women of violent

935
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 6: sexual assaults. And this particular case encompasses the time from

936
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 6: twenty nineteen moving forward. The investigation lasted for many years,

937
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 6: and it was brought by women in a Facebook group,

938
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 6: some of it through posing are we dating the same guy?

939
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 6: Was the group and Bat was ultimately court martialed at

940
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:03,800
Speaker 6: Fort Meade and convicted on twenty counts. It involved eight victims.

941
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,839
Speaker 6: He was sentenced to fifty three years in prison. As

942
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 6: I like to say, mayor reputch or so. And some

943
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 6: of the details, and this goes back to a lot

944
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:20,240
Speaker 6: of the mo that Chelsea was describing was that met

945
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 6: allegedly a bunch of these women through different dating apps

946
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:29,320
Speaker 6: or social circles in and around DC. Ultimately, the victims

947
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 6: described patterns of strangulation for sex and escalating violence and body.

948
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 6: You had a couple of more details to share, so

949
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,439
Speaker 6: we get the scope of the crime.

950
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 4: Right, So you just talked about from twenty nineteen to

951
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 4: twenty twenty three. But in early twenty twenty three, there

952
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 4: were multiple women that posted warning about him, about Jonathan

953
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 4: Batt in this Facebook group, Are we dating the same guy?

954
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 4: Their stories all matched, and that pushed the Army to

955
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 4: launch a formal investigation. So to have gotten back to,

956
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 4: you know, the powers that be in the Army that hey,

957
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 4: there's this Facebook group and they're posting about one of

958
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 4: our majors. Oh my gosh, this is terrible, and they

959
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,879
Speaker 4: opened up an investigation. What happened next?

960
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 3: Gor God bless, God bless.

961
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 6: And then so the CID, which stands for the Army,

962
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 6: it's the Criminal Investigation Division. So the CID interviewed victims,

963
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 6: they reviewed text messages and the dating app logs, they

964
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 6: did medical forensic exams, and as more women continued to

965
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 6: go forward, the case ultimately grew into one of the

966
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 6: largest sexual assault investigations in recent Army history. So it

967
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 6: was really brown ground breaking.

968
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 4: The Army was going through the logs of these dating

969
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,439
Speaker 4: apps that he must have his sign on, and going

970
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,879
Speaker 4: through all the women he must have messaged, maybe even

971
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 4: contacting them. Hey, you know, I don't know.

972
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful that they did, though, you know, heads

973
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 2: off to the army.

974
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 4: That's off to the army for protect protect You ever

975
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:06,399
Speaker 4: heard of this before internally as well? And that's important stuff, right.

976
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 4: So in twenty twenty four, after the Army did all

977
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 4: this and whatnot, that was charged with dozens of offenses

978
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:21,439
Speaker 4: involving up to twenty women. Twenty women. The charges later

979
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 4: were narrowed for the trial. Wow, yeah, women, it's unbelievable.

980
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,359
Speaker 6: In the trial itself took, it took several weeks, and

981
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 6: this happened at Fort Meade, and the victims testified it

982
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 6: was kind of staggering stuff. They were being choked, unconscious, restrained,

983
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 6: assaulted after saying no, they were. They suffered bruising, they

984
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 6: suffered neck injuries. The defense's claim was that everything was consensual,

985
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:56,399
Speaker 6: but the prosecutors argued that, you know, it was not consensual,

986
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,080
Speaker 6: and I guess there. The defense's argument was that there

987
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 6: was some continued contact with the women's after the assault,

988
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 6: which of course can be very common in trauma cases

989
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 6: for sure, for sure. And then ultimately, yeah, is that

990
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:18,720
Speaker 6: anything you care to speak to Chelsea?

991
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 9: Sure? Yeah, I mean just in my own personal experience, right,

992
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 9: I was married to someone who sexually assaulted me. I

993
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,399
Speaker 9: was in that marriage for five years, right, and then

994
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 9: I left that marriage. And John wasn't the next person,

995
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 9: but he was part of my experience. And like we

996
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 9: talked about earlier, I stuck around even though there were

997
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 9: flags towards the end. I stuck around to try and

998
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 9: help some of the other women to also kind of

999
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 9: see it and get out of it. But still way

1000
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 9: longer than I should have. It's so common, like, so

1001
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 9: so common. You guys talk so much about survivors of

1002
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 9: domestic abuse and sexual assault. If you haven't watched it,

1003
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 9: I know you guys watch a lot of stuff. But

1004
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 9: The Maid on Netflix goes into a really, really good

1005
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 9: So it was hard for me to watch. Honestly, it

1006
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 9: was like re traumatizing it. It took me a long time

1007
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 9: to watch it because it felt so true to my experience.

1008
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 2: We just talked about this the other night. Sometimes somebody

1009
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 2: who's the victim of domestic abuse or abusive in any way,

1010
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 2: but sometimes in a relationship, a marriage, you might go

1011
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 2: back seven times is the average. Yeah, So just like

1012
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 2: and by the way, this goes both ways. This is

1013
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 2: not just women, by the way, men are the greatest.

1014
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:34,280
Speaker 2: There's we're talking about the portion that stink on all sides.

1015
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 2: So this is not us against men and vice versa.

1016
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 2: But we're just talking about an abusive relationship that somebody

1017
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 2: might not allow grace to themselves because they've gone back before,

1018
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 2: or because they've allowed the you know, perpetrator back in

1019
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,759
Speaker 2: their homes. You almost want to convince yourself that it's

1020
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 2: not true. Therefore you maybe allow it back in, because

1021
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,720
Speaker 2: that would mean that you didn't make a terrible mistake

1022
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 2: in the first place.

1023
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 4: Right.

1024
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 9: Also, there's guilt around just allowing it happened in the

1025
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,280
Speaker 9: first place. I know that was part of my problem

1026
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 9: and being able to talk about it, because I really

1027
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:15,399
Speaker 9: didn't acknowledge most of what happened to me for almost

1028
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 9: a decade. Right it was even with John, like I

1029
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 9: honestly odd a sight out of mind, didn't even think

1030
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 9: about it until someone brought it to my attention again,

1031
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 9: and I was like, oh, yeah, that guy, and so

1032
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 9: it's it just your brain protects itself in different ways,

1033
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 9: and so for me, mine was just like, we're just

1034
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 9: not going to think about it anymore. It's fine, but

1035
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 9: the reality is to move forward and to heal, you

1036
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 9: got to talk about it and work through it and

1037
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 9: hopefully help other people not get into this position.

1038
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 4: I have a question, So when, so this this all

1039
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 4: happened after you like broke up like date, stop seeing him?

1040
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,240
Speaker 4: When you when you saw all this in the headlines

1041
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 4: and whatnot, were you shocked or were you like, oh

1042
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:57,719
Speaker 4: that tracks now.

1043
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 9: No, I wasn't, and either was the other person who

1044
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,800
Speaker 9: brought it to my attention. It was kind of like, yeah,

1045
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 9: that's things about right, based on kind of the behaviors

1046
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:10,319
Speaker 9: I saw that they had experienced.

1047
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 5: It was some of.

1048
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 9: Those early stages of very like aggressive kind of sexual

1049
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:18,919
Speaker 9: encounters like choking but not to the point of passing out,

1050
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 9: being kind of coercive, being rough right and intimidating, you know,

1051
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 9: like did I, yeah, did I think that? I don't

1052
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 9: feel like I did agree to that. So it didn't

1053
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 9: surprise me.

1054
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 4: Oh, I've been those kinds of relationships to where they

1055
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:34,279
Speaker 4: make you question yourself like.

1056
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 3: Oh did I did I say that was okay? Or

1057
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 3: it just makes me crazy? It just makes me crazy. Wow.

1058
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,240
Speaker 2: So, by the way, if you're just joining us, please

1059
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 2: or me deep in a conversation just about you know,

1060
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 2: the abuse of power that could potentially happen in any place.

1061
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,359
Speaker 2: And in this one, the army and the army really

1062
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 2: fought back, right, they weren't taking it, and the now

1063
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 2: found guilty fifty years that's a real sentence. And again

1064
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 2: we're just talking about like trauma responses. And again you

1065
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 2: can push it under the carpet. You might have a

1066
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 2: negative experience or something traumatic, whether you're male or female,

1067
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:11,440
Speaker 2: be like, listen, this is not worth a headache. This

1068
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 2: who knows, I'm just going to push this aside. You

1069
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 2: know what happens, like your body takes it right, that

1070
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 2: comes out in other ways. Suddenly you're you know, you

1071
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 2: get sickly, or something might happen physically for you, because

1072
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 2: trauma has to work its way through. So whether you're

1073
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 2: it's so much easier hopefully to talk it out, but

1074
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 2: not everybody feels like they have a place where they

1075
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 2: can do so safely, and that's a really isolating people. Yeah,

1076
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 2: because the shame game is so shame, it's so real,

1077
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 2: it's such a big deal, and it's so embarrassing to

1078
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 2: admit that, Hey, as a smart human, I walked into

1079
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:50,320
Speaker 2: a tough situation.

1080
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:56,920
Speaker 3: Join the club. Yeah, really.

1081
00:56:58,400 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 2: So aching light.

1082
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:05,359
Speaker 6: But Chelsea, you we understand are no longer in the

1083
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 6: military but are working on a doctorate.

1084
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:10,359
Speaker 2: We would love to hear a little about it.

1085
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:11,800
Speaker 9: Sure.

1086
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 6: So.

1087
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:15,760
Speaker 9: I have been out with military since twenty nineteen and

1088
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 9: I've been a practicing physician assistant physician associate depending on

1089
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 9: what state you're in, for over a decade now. When

1090
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 9: I got out, I fell into psychiatric medicine and I

1091
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 9: have worked with a lot of people with particularly trauma

1092
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 9: over the last five years. Decided to go for my

1093
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 9: doctorate as a PA, and part of my capsin project

1094
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 9: is doing a paper looking at the research steps out

1095
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 9: there on female veterans suicide screening in like primary care

1096
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 9: and like what is out there And I will tell

1097
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 9: you it is not much. And so my goal is

1098
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 9: to identify like the gap in research and what we're

1099
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 9: doing for women because it is a big problem. There

1100
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 9: is a lot of suicide ideation, there's a lot of

1101
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 9: high rate of suicide in this population, higher than civilian women,

1102
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 9: like two times higher than some billion. It's rapidly increasing.

1103
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 9: So how do we help these women get through this?

1104
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 9: How do we catch it earlier to support them earlier

1105
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 9: so they don't feel like they have to end their lives.

1106
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 3: That's an important gap analysis.

1107
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, I was holorified at how that is if.

1108
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 6: I remember this is again way back when we first

1109
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 6: connected just on the phone. Did I remember correctly that

1110
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 6: really even the questionnaire was kind of all geared towards men.

1111
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 9: So the ZA the Veteran Affairs has a analytical prediction

1112
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 9: model that is predominantly geared towards the highest population the

1113
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 9: people that have committed suicide, which is like white, older men,

1114
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:47,280
Speaker 9: and it's not geared towards women. It's not necessarily geared

1115
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 9: towards subpopulations of different ethnicities. It is improving slowly, but

1116
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 9: that's one tool. The tools that we traditionally use are

1117
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 9: gender neutrals. They've been tested in just like general populations

1118
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 9: and aren't necessarily specifically designed for women. Right, it's not

1119
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 9: going into and definitely not female veterans because there are

1120
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 9: some unique things we deal with, like military sexual trauma

1121
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 9: or you know, access to firearms at higher rates than

1122
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 9: the general population. There's all these things that we just

1123
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:19,920
Speaker 9: don't think about that that population deals with.

1124
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 4: So what is the biggest message you want other women

1125
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 4: to take away from what you went through.

1126
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 3: You know.

1127
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 9: One of the things that I always felt like was

1128
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 9: I was alone right all through going through my PTSD.

1129
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 9: Was I felt so alone that no one was out

1130
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 9: there for me. And the reality is there's lots of people.

1131
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 9: It's just being able to open up and start talking

1132
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 9: about it. My husband now is fabulous. He knows everything.

1133
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 9: He knows. The mom was called a night even though

1134
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 9: he's asleep for work tomorrow. My best friend, my sisters,

1135
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 9: they all know right because I had towards art communicating

1136
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 9: if I was going to heal. So you're not alone,

1137
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 9: even though it feels that way, you're not.

1138
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 3: And that is true.

1139
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 2: So you have to feel it to heal it, right, and

1140
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 2: like you have to talk about some talking.

1141
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 3: Is like it's real cheap, right.

1142
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 2: We talk every night because I do think it's the

1143
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 2: greatest healer of all time. And people think that, like, oh,

1144
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 2: I'm saying something that's never been said before, and then

1145
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 2: they say it and you're like, well, okay, you're fine.

1146
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 2: Like you can heal probably from anything once you kind

1147
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 2: of get it.

1148
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:26,560
Speaker 3: Off your chest.

1149
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 2: But like the weight of it, as I wear my

1150
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 2: weighted vest sometimes that's far greater than it needs to

1151
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 2: be right, and we hear that here even Melanie the

1152
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 2: other night, Like sometimes people just have to say it

1153
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 2: out loud takes all the power away, it really does.

1154
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 9: Absolutely I agree. And yeah, I just wanted to say

1155
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:46,240
Speaker 9: thank you ladies so much for having me and Taha

1156
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 9: and the guy. I appreciate it.

1157
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 2: We absolutely love you and anybody listening. We're not alone.

1158
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 2: You are in a community. We support you. And and Chelsea,

1159
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 2: you are the.

1160
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 4: Smarty bands smoking the world so much better, smarty pants.

1161
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 13: I know.

1162
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 6: Well, we'll have to come back to celebrate, no kidding, Chelsea,

1163
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 6: thank you for joining us, and everybody stick around because

1164
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 6: we are going to get into Brian Walsh who prepares

1165
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 6: to face a jury. Attorneys are doing some real surprising stuff.

1166
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 6: We've got that more true crime tonight. We're talking true

1167
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 6: crime all the time.

1168
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 2: Welcome back to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been

1169
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time. Stephanie here with Courtney

1170
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 2: and Body and man, is Chelsea so inspiring.

1171
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:45,959
Speaker 3: I'm so grateful that she was here.

1172
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 2: And again it harkens us back to when this is

1173
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:52,439
Speaker 2: somebody who she reached out pretty early on when we

1174
01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 2: first launched, and I don't know, it just feels very

1175
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 2: full circle. It seems very appropriately timed, even if not

1176
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 2: is it wasn't No, it certainly wasn't intentional.

1177
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:05,720
Speaker 3: It just happened to play out that way.

1178
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 2: And boy, talk about talking about moving your message forward.

1179
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 2: She's getting her PhD. She's going to be a doctor.

1180
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 3: Doctor smarty pants.

1181
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 2: That's why doctor smarty Pants is going to help everybody,

1182
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:19,880
Speaker 2: and maybe we can just keep having her back to

1183
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 2: maybe answer questions or help anybody else who might find

1184
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:27,920
Speaker 2: themselves in a similar circumstance because again, in the military,

1185
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:30,600
Speaker 2: the stuff that is a very specific lane that might

1186
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:34,440
Speaker 2: be hard to navigate. So what an incredible resource she

1187
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:39,640
Speaker 2: is and will continue to be. It's so it's so extraordinary.

1188
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 2: So high five to Chelsea emotion five.

1189
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 12: Yeah, she was fantastic and I really was. You could

1190
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 12: just feel her energy on the phone and in person

1191
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 12: right now. But she's definitely someone we're going to keep

1192
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 12: in touch with. So case that she was talking about,

1193
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:58,959
Speaker 12: oh yeah, she started to foreshadow that one a little

1194
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 12: bit and I was like, this is crazy, but that's

1195
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 12: definitely one we're going to be doing again.

1196
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 5: But I'm just going to say.

1197
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:06,919
Speaker 12: It just shows the power of our listeners out there

1198
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:09,480
Speaker 12: that what they send in to us is something that

1199
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:12,960
Speaker 12: we definitely respond to. So please everyone keeps sending in

1200
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 12: your suggestions and your dms, and we go through them all.

1201
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:19,200
Speaker 12: As a matter of fact, guys, we've got a couple

1202
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 12: of talkbacks that I wanted to do.

1203
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 5: Away hit it. Let's do it.

1204
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:28,520
Speaker 14: Hi, everyone, this is Deanna from Georgia. I was listening

1205
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:33,080
Speaker 14: to the podcast where you were talking about the nexium

1206
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 14: cult and it kind of reminded me of Leah Remeni's

1207
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:42,439
Speaker 14: documentary series on Scientology. It came out a while ago,

1208
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 14: but there were three seasons of it and it was

1209
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:49,920
Speaker 14: fascinating and horrifying all at the same time.

1210
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:56,240
Speaker 3: Listen, listen, Deanna. I'm not to talk to you. You

1211
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 3: and me. By the way, my name is my real

1212
01:03:58,520 --> 01:03:59,200
Speaker 3: name is Deana.

1213
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:04,240
Speaker 2: Oh boy, and Deanna gets me.

1214
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 3: Deanna feels me. I'm kind of obsessed with scientology. I'm

1215
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 3: not gonna lie. I know we're terrified to.

1216
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 15: Talk about it. Where is Shelley Muscar Where is Shelley?

1217
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:22,360
Speaker 15: Answer that question? By the way, I have a immed

1218
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 15: It's actually on Wednesday. I shouldn't really say this. It's

1219
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:27,720
Speaker 15: just like a general meeting with the person who made

1220
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 15: the show, the Scientology show. So I'm hoping that they'll

1221
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 15: come on and discuss.

1222
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 4: Yes, that would be great because I that was such

1223
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:42,520
Speaker 4: a good such her documentary, the series was so good.

1224
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:45,760
Speaker 4: And by the way, Mike, I think it's I think

1225
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 4: his name was Renner. He's the guy that does that

1226
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:55,840
Speaker 4: that documentary with her. He passed away just recently. Yeah, yeah,

1227
01:04:56,280 --> 01:04:59,480
Speaker 4: but really good, Deanna, I mean so good. And if

1228
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 4: you haven't seen it yet, watch Going Clear on HBO.

1229
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:10,280
Speaker 4: It's also a fantastic documentary, so good, and of course

1230
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:12,880
Speaker 4: both Mike and Leah are also in.

1231
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:13,240
Speaker 2: That as well.

1232
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 6: And it's Going Clear. Is that from a while ago,

1233
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 6: like twenty thirteen? It's from pre COVID.

1234
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 4: It's pre COVID, but I don't maybe like twenty sixteen,

1235
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 4: twenty fifteen.

1236
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:28,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, that one closed.

1237
01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 12: A little bit because I remember learning a lot more

1238
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 12: about scientology and that's the only way I think it

1239
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 12: would have.

1240
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 6: But oh, director Alec Gibney, that's right, of course, just fat.

1241
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:43,160
Speaker 4: And yeah, three seasons and there's like eight episodes a

1242
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:46,600
Speaker 4: season for the one of Leelam the Lea remeny one

1243
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:48,480
Speaker 4: and it's it's just fabulous.

1244
01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:50,920
Speaker 3: It's absolutely so good. Dana, thank you for that recommendation.

1245
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:54,560
Speaker 3: And way if you don't know what this is about.

1246
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:58,200
Speaker 2: Leah Remedy famous actress, remember her from what was the

1247
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:03,360
Speaker 2: show called Queens Queens And she's like an extraordinary actress.

1248
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:06,480
Speaker 2: Also like BFFs with j Lo in the real world.

1249
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:10,520
Speaker 2: And she's pretty too, so pretty, so cool. I somehow

1250
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 2: watch her reality show on the one with her husband

1251
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:17,360
Speaker 2: and her child. Yeah, I'm really into her. And she

1252
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 2: deflected basically from scientology.

1253
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:22,320
Speaker 3: She's now a suppressive person.

1254
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:27,800
Speaker 2: Exactly, and scientology being a very big air quotes church obviously,

1255
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:32,120
Speaker 2: Tom Cruise being at the helm of it and miscotch

1256
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:39,520
Speaker 2: of it, Davids Damage. David Miskevitch is like the leader and.

1257
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:45,640
Speaker 4: His wife was but he died right the Scavige. She

1258
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:49,920
Speaker 4: has a wife named Shelley Miskevitch and she's been missing

1259
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:54,120
Speaker 4: for gosh ten years or so. Wow, nobody knows where

1260
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 4: she's at and nobody l a p D you want

1261
01:06:57,080 --> 01:07:00,640
Speaker 4: to like nothing, It's it's like a big conspiracy. And

1262
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:05,480
Speaker 4: anybody who talked about stalk you, Yeah, they do that. Yeah,

1263
01:07:06,040 --> 01:07:07,640
Speaker 4: I have two stories on that front, I.

1264
01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:10,840
Speaker 5: Do took with those just for.

1265
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:13,760
Speaker 6: People who don't know, like me, she's been missing since

1266
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:17,520
Speaker 6: two thousand and seven, eighteen years, so.

1267
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, anyway longer than ten. Longer than ten then my bad,

1268
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:23,720
Speaker 3: my bad, eighteen just for yeah. And here's the thing.

1269
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:24,720
Speaker 2: Leader's white.

1270
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:28,760
Speaker 4: They they they use like really, they have like operation

1271
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:34,920
Speaker 4: manuals for you know, suppressing people who they label suppressive people. Okay,

1272
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:40,680
Speaker 4: and it's law fair, it's stalking, it's listen. I'm terrified

1273
01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:41,760
Speaker 4: for what I even just said.

1274
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:43,760
Speaker 2: I I know same.

1275
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:45,080
Speaker 3: I'm afraid to talk about it too.

1276
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 5: But I'm the kids.

1277
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 2: Anybody that I know who tried to do a project

1278
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:54,880
Speaker 2: about where is Shelley? It got shut down because they

1279
01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 2: come in hot with the lawsuits. And by the way,

1280
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 2: where is Shelley? So the leader's wife has just vanished

1281
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 2: for so many years. That's interesting and suspicious and scary,

1282
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:09,600
Speaker 2: and everybody just wants to know where she's at. Meanwhile,

1283
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:13,800
Speaker 2: Leah Remedie, the actress, she just goes rogue. She gets out,

1284
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:16,280
Speaker 2: maybe the best way to stay alive is to do

1285
01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:20,160
Speaker 2: a show about what happens in scientology. Right, I'll be

1286
01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:24,640
Speaker 2: and center smart back in the day, I used to

1287
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:27,120
Speaker 2: work at a place. Know, I used to live in

1288
01:08:27,160 --> 01:08:31,080
Speaker 2: an apartment, and my neighbor in this apartment was this

1289
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:34,599
Speaker 2: beautiful young woman. She was a single mom, and her

1290
01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:37,320
Speaker 2: like behaviors were very strange. Her days were nights. She

1291
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:40,880
Speaker 2: would kind of like sneak into her place. She would

1292
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:45,719
Speaker 2: have like odd behaviors. She was escaping scientology, I later

1293
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:50,000
Speaker 2: find out, and was being straight up stock and people

1294
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:54,760
Speaker 2: were harassing her, following her, and she was so paranoid

1295
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:58,479
Speaker 2: that she was like literally going to her apartment and

1296
01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:02,080
Speaker 2: she was like a young I was a young single mom,

1297
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:05,519
Speaker 2: so like I recognized sort of that harrowing look on

1298
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:09,639
Speaker 2: her face. She was like trying to escape and they

1299
01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:13,680
Speaker 2: were following her day and day out, and how horrifying.

1300
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:16,200
Speaker 2: And you know, we can get into the Tom Cruise

1301
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:19,639
Speaker 2: thing at a later date. But what the.

1302
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:25,160
Speaker 4: Had a million year contract? Oh my goodness, it's great, dude,

1303
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:28,240
Speaker 4: this is the whole show. This.

1304
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:34,080
Speaker 12: I couldn't tell if people were joking and they were like,

1305
01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 12: I'm scared to cover it.

1306
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:39,760
Speaker 2: Yes, no, no, no, we're genuinely scared to cover it.

1307
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:43,560
Speaker 6: As Stephanie had referenced, there were people who produced obviously

1308
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:47,120
Speaker 6: the doc and we had reason to be at the

1309
01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:53,000
Speaker 6: office several different times and security and like it's it's.

1310
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:54,519
Speaker 3: For serious, it's for serious.

1311
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:58,240
Speaker 6: I remember hearing there was one famous woman I had

1312
01:09:58,280 --> 01:10:00,400
Speaker 6: heard a doc and it was similar to what you

1313
01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:05,200
Speaker 6: were saying, Stephanie. She tried to leave and her stories

1314
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 6: were I mean, it was just insane the lengths, and

1315
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:12,960
Speaker 6: all she wanted to do was break free.

1316
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:16,280
Speaker 2: Free, And by breaking free, you're not allowed to speak

1317
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 2: to your immediate family, your mother, your father, your sister,

1318
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:21,799
Speaker 2: your brother in her case, in this you know, nameless

1319
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:25,599
Speaker 2: person's case, she was raised in scientology, she was born

1320
01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:28,839
Speaker 2: into it. Her mother was a high ranking Scientology official.

1321
01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:32,519
Speaker 2: Her father was also in scientology. She was on the

1322
01:10:32,600 --> 01:10:36,360
Speaker 2: sea ORG, which is like this boat that for your

1323
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:39,800
Speaker 2: teen years you go, you separate from your parents and

1324
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:43,040
Speaker 2: you go on this like ship for an extended period

1325
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:48,000
Speaker 2: of time to really learn the exactly you learn about

1326
01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:51,240
Speaker 2: the key tenants of society of scientology and.

1327
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:54,640
Speaker 3: Kind of the stick is you break away.

1328
01:10:54,360 --> 01:11:00,439
Speaker 2: From your familial of your family basically, and so by

1329
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:04,680
Speaker 2: leaving you have to literally leave every single person you know,

1330
01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:06,160
Speaker 2: your childhood, et cetera.

1331
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:07,959
Speaker 3: You're not allowed to have contact.

1332
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:10,799
Speaker 2: And if you're on the other side of it, somebody

1333
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:16,240
Speaker 2: you love leaves scientology. For example, my old neighbor's parents,

1334
01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:19,960
Speaker 2: they are not allowed to have contact with her, So

1335
01:11:20,040 --> 01:11:22,920
Speaker 2: you have to just discommunicate your considered That's.

1336
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 3: Why Nicole Kidman doesn't have contact.

1337
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:31,320
Speaker 2: With her correct kid Yeah, allegedly, allegedly allegedly.

1338
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:31,559
Speaker 3: Prepare ourselves for this.

1339
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:34,439
Speaker 4: I used to date someone. I used to date a

1340
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:37,880
Speaker 4: PI like a private investigator, and all of their clients

1341
01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:42,320
Speaker 4: right up your alley, and it was like fifteen years ago,

1342
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:44,920
Speaker 4: like a really long time ago, but all of their

1343
01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:48,760
Speaker 4: clients were scientology, right.

1344
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:51,080
Speaker 2: So yeah, to the point, so she would she was

1345
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:54,559
Speaker 2: trying to get out of it, as they would basically

1346
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:57,879
Speaker 2: hire people to follow her to intimidate her. So everywhere

1347
01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:00,200
Speaker 2: she went there would be a black car behind her,

1348
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:02,080
Speaker 2: and then when she would get out, there would be

1349
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:03,040
Speaker 2: like a scary.

1350
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:05,000
Speaker 3: Man staring at her taking photographs.

1351
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:07,760
Speaker 2: Then they would follow her to the grocery store and

1352
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:10,200
Speaker 2: like bump into her as she was carrying groceries.

1353
01:12:10,439 --> 01:12:11,920
Speaker 3: This would have happen all day, all night.

1354
01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 2: This was like a person will signed to bully you

1355
01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:19,400
Speaker 2: twenty four hours a day just to make you either

1356
01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:22,519
Speaker 2: a come back and zip it, or if you were

1357
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:24,639
Speaker 2: going to deflect to make sure that you weren't actually

1358
01:12:24,720 --> 01:12:26,639
Speaker 2: speaking to anybody who would report on it.

1359
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:28,440
Speaker 5: That's crazy.

1360
01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:30,639
Speaker 2: Well I guess that's a real thing too, Like that's

1361
01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:32,240
Speaker 2: not even like a pretend thing.

1362
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:34,400
Speaker 3: No, and it's crazy making.

1363
01:12:34,520 --> 01:12:39,720
Speaker 6: Can you imagine the stress no of being did you

1364
01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:42,400
Speaker 6: guys seem not to switch topic too much, but did

1365
01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:43,800
Speaker 6: you guys see Baby Reindeer?

1366
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:47,000
Speaker 5: Yes, no, very great, Yes I did.

1367
01:12:47,040 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 3: It's like a depressing watch, but yes I did.

1368
01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:52,800
Speaker 5: But she's basically like Holidays the last following.

1369
01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:55,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was just it was I thought it was

1370
01:12:55,400 --> 01:12:58,960
Speaker 6: a very good insight into someone who's sort of who's

1371
01:12:59,000 --> 01:12:59,679
Speaker 6: being stalked.

1372
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:02,559
Speaker 3: And it'll make you go crazy.

1373
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:06,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, you question yourself, right, you're questioning everything and everything.

1374
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:11,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, by the way, you know it, if you're being

1375
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:14,679
Speaker 2: stalked and somebody has their eyes on you, you're really

1376
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:15,400
Speaker 2: well aware of it.

1377
01:13:16,040 --> 01:13:17,200
Speaker 3: And that's the goal.

1378
01:13:17,479 --> 01:13:17,679
Speaker 5: Right.

1379
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:21,559
Speaker 2: So stalkers have the intention of making you aware they're there.

1380
01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:24,200
Speaker 2: It's not a secret thing. They want you to know

1381
01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:28,560
Speaker 2: that they have either assigned somebody to follow you everywhere

1382
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:33,040
Speaker 2: so that you never feel alone. And that's like accountability

1383
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:36,639
Speaker 2: in some weird messed up way they want their presence known.

1384
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:38,439
Speaker 2: It's not like they're sninking in a bush and you're

1385
01:13:38,439 --> 01:13:39,520
Speaker 2: not aware of it.

1386
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:40,679
Speaker 3: It's almost as though.

1387
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:43,160
Speaker 2: They want you to be aware of it. And in

1388
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:46,080
Speaker 2: the case of scientology, that would track bybe reindeer, that

1389
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:49,200
Speaker 2: would track. It's not anonymous and like, hey, I'm like

1390
01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:54,880
Speaker 2: curious and you would never know it. No a true stalker. Well,

1391
01:13:55,080 --> 01:13:56,880
Speaker 2: I don't know how you say true stalker. Well, there's

1392
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:57,519
Speaker 2: so many shapes.

1393
01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:01,719
Speaker 4: Do you remember when we were wondering if Brian Coberger

1394
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:05,720
Speaker 4: was stalking in the girls? So I went in and

1395
01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:08,639
Speaker 4: there was one of the pre trial hearings where Bill

1396
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:11,519
Speaker 4: Thompson got up and he said, Brian Coberger was not

1397
01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:14,400
Speaker 4: There's no connection, there's no connection, he wasn't stalking the girls.

1398
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:17,439
Speaker 4: I went and looked up the law, like what's the

1399
01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:20,160
Speaker 4: stalking law? And in Idaho, and I think in a

1400
01:14:20,160 --> 01:14:23,200
Speaker 4: lot of places you have to you have to in

1401
01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:25,400
Speaker 4: order to be declared a stalker.

1402
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:27,400
Speaker 3: Your victim has to know you're stalking them.

1403
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:30,880
Speaker 4: So it made me think, like there are cases I

1404
01:14:30,920 --> 01:14:34,080
Speaker 4: think where the victim doesn't know they're being stalked.

1405
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:37,720
Speaker 2: True, and they're being cased also, which is a thing

1406
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:41,840
Speaker 2: or just somebody is just like watching you, which is

1407
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:46,639
Speaker 2: also you'reusing from horrifying horrifying on every level, and stalking

1408
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:50,840
Speaker 2: also could imply somebody's being hired to be following you

1409
01:14:50,920 --> 01:14:54,599
Speaker 2: around so that you also know that you're not alone.

1410
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:57,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, like that exactly right. We only can anybody who's.

1411
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:01,800
Speaker 2: Had experience and that kind of you can probably you

1412
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:04,439
Speaker 2: kind of know it's there, but nobody who trust their gut.

1413
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:07,439
Speaker 3: It's so hard. It's so hard to trust your gut.

1414
01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:10,680
Speaker 2: And I guess that's the Chelsea takeaway, even from the

1415
01:15:10,720 --> 01:15:13,720
Speaker 2: last segment or even in any of the things we've

1416
01:15:13,720 --> 01:15:15,200
Speaker 2: talked about tonight.

1417
01:15:15,320 --> 01:15:16,719
Speaker 3: You have to trust your gut.

1418
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:20,760
Speaker 2: It's louder than you may think, and people will believe you.

1419
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:28,559
Speaker 4: My gut likes cheeseburgers, trusted, trusted double double animal style.

1420
01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:30,760
Speaker 2: Boy, do I miss in and out? That's one of

1421
01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:33,519
Speaker 2: the many things I missed out, La. I'll bring it

1422
01:15:33,560 --> 01:15:37,879
Speaker 2: to you when I come and myself. Yes, you're invited tomorrow.

1423
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:43,639
Speaker 2: Anything no, no, no, By the way, they do really good.

1424
01:15:44,439 --> 01:15:47,080
Speaker 3: To move somewhere without in and out. That's it's apparently

1425
01:15:47,479 --> 01:15:48,280
Speaker 3: apparently coming.

1426
01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:52,560
Speaker 2: Six lots of chatter about it do they take to

1427
01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:54,480
Speaker 2: celiact disease very seriously?

1428
01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:57,599
Speaker 3: Also depends yeah, oh yeah, they very much done.

1429
01:15:57,760 --> 01:15:58,400
Speaker 11: Oh yeah.

1430
01:15:58,479 --> 01:15:59,559
Speaker 3: Do you have Trader Joe's.

1431
01:16:00,280 --> 01:16:03,040
Speaker 2: We do have Trader Joe's, But you know, the parking

1432
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:05,240
Speaker 2: lot of Trader Joe's, no matter where you live.

1433
01:16:05,200 --> 01:16:06,160
Speaker 5: Is everywhere.

1434
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:07,679
Speaker 3: Why is that the case?

1435
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:08,320
Speaker 2: Can we clear?

1436
01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:08,759
Speaker 9: Then?

1437
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:09,599
Speaker 3: Is lovely?

1438
01:16:09,880 --> 01:16:12,600
Speaker 6: It's at the place where Stephanie used to It's the

1439
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:15,479
Speaker 6: parking lot was their favorite place because it also has

1440
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:17,080
Speaker 6: home goods at the.

1441
01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:25,080
Speaker 4: Note that Joe's is always an amazing, amazing shopping center.

1442
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:30,760
Speaker 2: It's always everywhere it's goods to I know, I ever

1443
01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:32,879
Speaker 2: goes to the home Goods next to the Trader Joe's.

1444
01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:36,720
Speaker 2: She shops at Trader Joe's, and then she refuses to

1445
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:43,799
Speaker 2: go to TJ. Max don't have the best candles. I honestly,

1446
01:16:44,160 --> 01:16:46,040
Speaker 2: when I close my eyes and I'm like, what's her

1447
01:16:46,040 --> 01:16:47,920
Speaker 2: happy place, it's in the middle of a dance floor

1448
01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:50,040
Speaker 2: or home goods TJ home.

1449
01:16:52,720 --> 01:16:56,559
Speaker 4: I will be in there for hours, and I probably

1450
01:16:56,560 --> 01:16:59,120
Speaker 4: believe like one thing, but I'm in there for hours.

1451
01:16:59,479 --> 01:17:00,200
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

1452
01:17:00,200 --> 01:17:02,880
Speaker 6: We all have our own happy places, but listen, keep

1453
01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:05,479
Speaker 6: it here, because after the break we are going to

1454
01:17:05,640 --> 01:17:09,519
Speaker 6: finally get to Brian Walsh and the preparation that's going

1455
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:14,200
Speaker 6: into him facing a jury and what his lawyers are

1456
01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:14,640
Speaker 6: up to.

1457
01:17:14,800 --> 01:17:15,640
Speaker 3: It's interesting.

1458
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:19,440
Speaker 6: Keep it here True Crime Tonight.

1459
01:17:28,240 --> 01:17:30,800
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been

1460
01:17:30,880 --> 01:17:33,640
Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time. I'm Steph here with

1461
01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:37,200
Speaker 2: Courtney and Body and just as a reminder, tomorrow is

1462
01:17:37,280 --> 01:17:41,840
Speaker 2: Talkback Tuesday. Talkback Tuesdays are our most favorite because you

1463
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:44,679
Speaker 2: guys get to sound off and tell us what you're thinking.

1464
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:48,000
Speaker 2: So keep those talkbacks coming. All you have to do

1465
01:17:48,160 --> 01:17:52,200
Speaker 2: is number one, you can download the iHeartRadio app, and

1466
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:54,200
Speaker 2: then in your top right hand corner there's this like

1467
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:58,160
Speaker 2: little microphone icon. You literally just push that leave a

1468
01:17:58,240 --> 01:18:00,960
Speaker 2: message and then we get the message and we'll play

1469
01:18:00,960 --> 01:18:03,320
Speaker 2: it on the show. Or you could also you could

1470
01:18:03,320 --> 01:18:05,920
Speaker 2: also leave us a message after hours at eight eight

1471
01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:09,920
Speaker 2: eight three one crime, kind of like an old school voicemail.

1472
01:18:10,640 --> 01:18:13,240
Speaker 2: Or you could always dm us at True Crime Tonight

1473
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:17,040
Speaker 2: show on Instagram and TikTok or at True Crime Tonight

1474
01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:21,360
Speaker 2: on Facebook. So there's no excuse to not share your thoughts.

1475
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:25,439
Speaker 2: We want to hear them. And Boddy, what do you

1476
01:18:25,479 --> 01:18:28,800
Speaker 2: have for us? Okay, fine, are you going to talk

1477
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:31,240
Speaker 2: about a murder case? Bring my sister.

1478
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:36,080
Speaker 4: So Brian Walsh, you know, he has been declared competent.

1479
01:18:36,120 --> 01:18:39,040
Speaker 4: We talked about this last week. He has been declared

1480
01:18:39,080 --> 01:18:42,760
Speaker 4: competent to stand trial following his evaluation at the Bridgewater

1481
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:48,320
Speaker 4: State Hospital. And guess what, you guys, dry selection begins tomorrow.

1482
01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:50,160
Speaker 3: You know, we're talking about a big day.

1483
01:18:50,640 --> 01:18:52,160
Speaker 4: And you know, we were talking about this big day

1484
01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:53,720
Speaker 4: stuff and I was like, oh, yes, the bride and

1485
01:18:53,960 --> 01:18:54,720
Speaker 4: the Brian.

1486
01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:56,599
Speaker 3: Walsh jury start. Then you were like no, the epstein.

1487
01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:59,320
Speaker 3: I was like, oh no, no, but yeah, the big day,

1488
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:03,040
Speaker 3: big day. Yeah, a jury selection starts tomorrow.

1489
01:19:03,160 --> 01:19:06,160
Speaker 4: They pulled about seventy people, the judges looking to see

1490
01:19:06,960 --> 01:19:09,360
Speaker 4: about sixteen or so, you know, because they need alternates

1491
01:19:09,360 --> 01:19:14,120
Speaker 4: and whatnot. Sure, and opening statements are tentatively scheduled to

1492
01:19:14,160 --> 01:19:17,720
Speaker 4: start for December first. And this is all happening in

1493
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:22,400
Speaker 4: Norfolk County, Massachusetts. So meanwhile, the defense is moving to

1494
01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:26,760
Speaker 4: block character evidence about his missing wife, and they have

1495
01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:31,840
Speaker 4: concerns are mounting over the former trooper Michael Proctor's role

1496
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:35,200
Speaker 4: in this investigation. And I remember Michael Proctor is the

1497
01:19:35,479 --> 01:19:39,360
Speaker 4: infamous let's say I'll say he's the villain in the

1498
01:19:39,439 --> 01:19:42,400
Speaker 4: Karen Reid story, right, would that be an accurate I

1499
01:19:42,479 --> 01:19:44,840
Speaker 4: think he's the villain in the Karen Reid story, and

1500
01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:49,960
Speaker 4: you know he he had was also in this investigation

1501
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:53,719
Speaker 4: as well, so of course the defense is looking into

1502
01:19:53,760 --> 01:20:00,280
Speaker 4: his everything. Michael Proctor via Brian Walsh. So today the

1503
01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:04,479
Speaker 4: judge said that opening statements like I said, are scheduled

1504
01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:08,280
Speaker 4: to start summer. First, the defense requests the court bar

1505
01:20:08,439 --> 01:20:13,679
Speaker 4: testimony that describe Anna the victim, as a loving mother

1506
01:20:14,040 --> 01:20:19,040
Speaker 4: or a dedicated employee, arguing such statements are prejudicial. So

1507
01:20:19,080 --> 01:20:22,559
Speaker 4: they don't want, like, you know, any of Anna's friends

1508
01:20:22,760 --> 01:20:24,400
Speaker 4: or coworkers or whatnot.

1509
01:20:24,040 --> 01:20:26,280
Speaker 3: To get a stand yeah and say she was just

1510
01:20:26,320 --> 01:20:26,880
Speaker 3: a great mom.

1511
01:20:27,000 --> 01:20:29,080
Speaker 2: No, she was a wonderful person and didn't just start

1512
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:32,519
Speaker 2: to die. Why would the defense want anyone saying of.

1513
01:20:32,479 --> 01:20:36,360
Speaker 6: Course right, I've never I've never heard of such a thing.

1514
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:43,280
Speaker 2: I know, have you guys, no like memory I'm thinking

1515
01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:49,040
Speaker 2: of I'm spacing one. It's Connecticut, that horrible murder with

1516
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:53,599
Speaker 2: Jennifer where her husband was like lying in wait in Greenwich,

1517
01:20:53,640 --> 01:20:57,000
Speaker 2: Connecticut in her garage when she came home from drop off,

1518
01:20:57,040 --> 01:21:00,280
Speaker 2: and then he murdered her and dismembered her and put

1519
01:21:00,280 --> 01:21:05,000
Speaker 2: her in all the various trash cans throughout even like

1520
01:21:05,520 --> 01:21:10,479
Speaker 2: to New Haven. We covered this, we know this. My

1521
01:21:10,560 --> 01:21:13,280
Speaker 2: point is in that what was his name, Michael something?

1522
01:21:13,920 --> 01:21:16,800
Speaker 2: Forgive me, yeah, but I remember that sort of being

1523
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:19,240
Speaker 2: something that like, well, we don't want to hear how

1524
01:21:19,240 --> 01:21:22,400
Speaker 2: great she was, Okay, great, the most loving mother of

1525
01:21:22,520 --> 01:21:26,800
Speaker 2: four children. Really we don't get to hear that. That's insane.

1526
01:21:28,040 --> 01:21:28,960
Speaker 3: It's it is insane.

1527
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:32,679
Speaker 4: And you know, the defense is going to continue to investigate,

1528
01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:35,080
Speaker 4: of course, the role of Michael Proctor in this case.

1529
01:21:35,439 --> 01:21:38,360
Speaker 4: They're raising questions about the credibility of evidence and the

1530
01:21:38,439 --> 01:21:42,800
Speaker 4: chain of custody and this remains an developing component. Wow, yeah,

1531
01:21:42,840 --> 01:21:45,880
Speaker 4: it's kind of nuts. And also we learned that they

1532
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:48,719
Speaker 4: have this video of Anna and her kids and Brian's

1533
01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:52,360
Speaker 4: kids there. You know, they share kids in like their

1534
01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:56,840
Speaker 4: living room on this rug. Okay, and guess what he

1535
01:21:58,160 --> 01:22:01,240
Speaker 4: wrapped her in because they found that rug in a

1536
01:22:01,320 --> 01:22:06,120
Speaker 4: dumpster by his mom's house, and in that dumpster was

1537
01:22:06,160 --> 01:22:11,040
Speaker 4: the identical rug and like a bone fragment and a saw.

1538
01:22:12,080 --> 01:22:17,240
Speaker 4: And so the defense doesn't want the video admitted, obviously,

1539
01:22:17,400 --> 01:22:20,759
Speaker 4: but the judge said, we're going to admit at least

1540
01:22:20,760 --> 01:22:24,800
Speaker 4: a screenshot of the video, so a picture will be

1541
01:22:24,880 --> 01:22:27,519
Speaker 4: added to the evidence, which is great because they needed that.

1542
01:22:28,160 --> 01:22:32,240
Speaker 13: So wait, this psychopath actually rolled his wife up that

1543
01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:36,640
Speaker 13: he killed allegedly, allegedly, allegedly in a rug that was

1544
01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:39,400
Speaker 13: in his home that there's photographed proof of that.

1545
01:22:39,479 --> 01:22:42,479
Speaker 2: His kids know this rug. They've laid on that rug

1546
01:22:43,160 --> 01:22:46,320
Speaker 2: watching television and hanging out as a family, right, and

1547
01:22:46,360 --> 01:22:51,760
Speaker 2: then he brought it to the mother's dumpster by his

1548
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:53,639
Speaker 2: mom's house. Can you imagine me and his mom?

1549
01:22:54,320 --> 01:22:57,400
Speaker 4: Well, guess what his mom was in court today and

1550
01:22:58,400 --> 01:23:01,280
Speaker 4: the judge had maker leave because you know she's well

1551
01:23:01,280 --> 01:23:04,240
Speaker 4: she's not on the witness list, but because you know

1552
01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:08,639
Speaker 4: it could happen. He he made the the his mom leave.

1553
01:23:09,280 --> 01:23:12,519
Speaker 2: Because because she didn't he the judge made her leave

1554
01:23:12,560 --> 01:23:14,880
Speaker 2: because she was too emotional.

1555
01:23:15,360 --> 01:23:17,400
Speaker 4: Or if you're going to be a witness at a

1556
01:23:17,400 --> 01:23:21,720
Speaker 4: crime or a criminal trial, you can't like watch you know.

1557
01:23:21,720 --> 01:23:29,920
Speaker 2: It did's my witness. The county people who testified, they.

1558
01:23:29,920 --> 01:23:33,360
Speaker 3: Can sit after they've testified. But yeah, it was after it.

1559
01:23:33,280 --> 01:23:36,160
Speaker 6: Was after yeah, yeah, yeah, you can't hear it because

1560
01:23:36,160 --> 01:23:37,280
Speaker 6: you could be influenced.

1561
01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:40,000
Speaker 3: You can be influenced, so you can't, you know, for

1562
01:23:40,040 --> 01:23:41,599
Speaker 3: all these things. So yeah, he made her leave.

1563
01:23:42,680 --> 01:23:45,599
Speaker 4: The defense tried to move the venue by the way too,

1564
01:23:46,120 --> 01:23:50,200
Speaker 4: and the judge said, now was the reason for media

1565
01:23:50,360 --> 01:23:54,200
Speaker 4: to move the media coverage and they were concerned about

1566
01:23:54,400 --> 01:23:55,840
Speaker 4: the Karen Reid demonstrators.

1567
01:23:57,800 --> 01:23:59,719
Speaker 3: So but you know, because of Michael Procter.

1568
01:24:00,200 --> 01:24:02,280
Speaker 2: And can we just like sum up, Michael Proctor in

1569
01:24:02,320 --> 01:24:06,120
Speaker 2: case you're just joining us. So Karen Reid very infamously

1570
01:24:06,400 --> 01:24:08,840
Speaker 2: this I think it was last summer. This whole six

1571
01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:12,040
Speaker 2: months has been a bit of an exciting blur. Karen

1572
01:24:12,080 --> 01:24:16,639
Speaker 2: Reid was retried for the second time in the death

1573
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:22,800
Speaker 2: of her then boyfriend. She was found innocent and there

1574
01:24:22,880 --> 01:24:26,839
Speaker 2: was a lead investigator, and that lead investigator was also

1575
01:24:27,280 --> 01:24:31,000
Speaker 2: present the night of the Karen Reid incident where she

1576
01:24:31,040 --> 01:24:35,920
Speaker 2: allegedly or was being accused of hitting her boyfriend at

1577
01:24:35,920 --> 01:24:36,840
Speaker 2: the time with a.

1578
01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:38,400
Speaker 3: Car after a party.

1579
01:24:38,680 --> 01:24:41,240
Speaker 2: At the party was Michael Proctor and a bunch of

1580
01:24:41,280 --> 01:24:46,400
Speaker 2: other cops in this Boston town. And then Michael Proctor,

1581
01:24:46,720 --> 01:24:50,000
Speaker 2: who's now heading up the investigation of his buddy who

1582
01:24:50,160 --> 01:24:55,519
Speaker 2: allegedly Karen Reid hit with her car, was not a

1583
01:24:55,520 --> 01:24:58,800
Speaker 2: great investigator, and it came out that there was like

1584
01:24:58,840 --> 01:25:02,400
Speaker 2: a lot of really bad behavior under Michael Proctor's watch.

1585
01:25:02,960 --> 01:25:09,479
Speaker 2: So he gets booted after kind of a tyranny of shame, frankly,

1586
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:13,679
Speaker 2: lots of embarrassing things inappropriate text. It seemed as though

1587
01:25:13,760 --> 01:25:18,400
Speaker 2: maybe Karen Reid had been targeted and was being essentially

1588
01:25:18,439 --> 01:25:23,639
Speaker 2: framed for this murder, and Michael Proctor gets booted. Now,

1589
01:25:23,880 --> 01:25:27,800
Speaker 2: Michael Proctor, any case that he worked on prior is

1590
01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:31,719
Speaker 2: basically up for conversation because he's behaved like a dirty cop,

1591
01:25:32,439 --> 01:25:36,040
Speaker 2: which nobody likes, including the cops. That's a bad thing.

1592
01:25:36,280 --> 01:25:41,840
Speaker 2: So anything from Karen Reid bror is like up for

1593
01:25:41,880 --> 01:25:45,719
Speaker 2: a discussion, which is really scary because in cases maybe

1594
01:25:45,760 --> 01:25:49,839
Speaker 2: like this one allegedly that this guy offs his wife

1595
01:25:50,439 --> 01:25:54,960
Speaker 2: and is looking to get away with it allegedly, he

1596
01:25:55,000 --> 01:25:57,360
Speaker 2: can point to Michael Proctor and be like, oh, yeah, right,

1597
01:25:57,439 --> 01:26:00,639
Speaker 2: it's that dirty cop again. At it pushing me into

1598
01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:04,559
Speaker 2: a corner. I should be relinquished of all issues. That's

1599
01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:10,240
Speaker 2: how important law enforcement is at every stage of the game. Quentin,

1600
01:26:10,240 --> 01:26:13,280
Speaker 2: you're giving me a look. You seem like you want

1601
01:26:13,320 --> 01:26:14,639
Speaker 2: to throw in something right now.

1602
01:26:14,720 --> 01:26:18,240
Speaker 6: I have just I have been trying to my mind

1603
01:26:18,280 --> 01:26:22,000
Speaker 6: has been elsewhere. A little bit about the murder in Greenwich, Connecticut.

1604
01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:24,719
Speaker 6: You're talking about Andrew Kissel.

1605
01:26:26,320 --> 01:26:32,680
Speaker 2: No, no, no real estate devent. Jennifer is oh, Jennifer Dulos.

1606
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:36,200
Speaker 2: Jennifer Dulos. May she rest in peace. Jennifer Dulos. Let's

1607
01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:39,920
Speaker 2: hear about Jennifer Dulos. Not to distract, but yes, Jennifer

1608
01:26:40,280 --> 01:26:42,960
Speaker 2: Dulos is such a tragic case.

1609
01:26:44,320 --> 01:26:44,559
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1610
01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:48,520
Speaker 6: She was a mother of five. She disappeared in New Canaan, Connecticut.

1611
01:26:49,080 --> 01:26:53,120
Speaker 6: This is in May of twenty nineteen. And her strange husband,

1612
01:26:53,560 --> 01:26:58,360
Speaker 6: Fotus Dulas, that's what yep, was the main suspect after

1613
01:26:58,439 --> 01:27:01,240
Speaker 6: he was seen on surveillance foot disposing of evidence in

1614
01:27:01,320 --> 01:27:06,840
Speaker 6: trash bags and rolled up heart for carpet in Hartford, Connecticut.

1615
01:27:06,960 --> 01:27:10,880
Speaker 6: These similarities are insane. Wow to the case we're talking about.

1616
01:27:11,280 --> 01:27:14,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that case in Connecticut, we covered it a

1617
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:17,760
Speaker 2: bit with Nancy Grayce back in the day. This guy

1618
01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:21,200
Speaker 2: was having an affair, he had fallen in love elsewhere.

1619
01:27:21,520 --> 01:27:24,559
Speaker 2: He had five kids with Jennifer. Yea at beautiful house,

1620
01:27:24,680 --> 01:27:27,960
Speaker 2: fancy life, all the things. She's the dream. If you

1621
01:27:27,960 --> 01:27:29,840
Speaker 2: look at a photograph of her. She's like the most

1622
01:27:29,840 --> 01:27:34,400
Speaker 2: perfect beautiful Hetorage scene and devoted mother, all the things

1623
01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:37,680
Speaker 2: she comes home, gets into her garage. This guy is

1624
01:27:37,760 --> 01:27:41,599
Speaker 2: waiting in wait, like he's waiting to murder her. Yeah,

1625
01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:45,479
Speaker 2: and then attacks her, murders her, and then I think

1626
01:27:45,760 --> 01:27:48,360
Speaker 2: rolls her up in something, maybe the rug for the

1627
01:27:48,439 --> 01:27:51,840
Speaker 2: living room. Similarly, I may be wrong about that, but

1628
01:27:52,160 --> 01:27:55,040
Speaker 2: he rolls her up and then dismembers her, puts her

1629
01:27:55,080 --> 01:27:57,439
Speaker 2: in garbage bags. And then he's seen by the way

1630
01:27:57,439 --> 01:28:01,000
Speaker 2: with the girlfriend in the car, driving throughout, gallivanting through

1631
01:28:01,080 --> 01:28:05,760
Speaker 2: all of Connecticut far far and wide, disposing of her

1632
01:28:05,760 --> 01:28:08,160
Speaker 2: body in different trash cans and bags.

1633
01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:09,799
Speaker 3: Very similar, and he like killed.

1634
01:28:09,560 --> 01:28:12,280
Speaker 6: So similar and heart for Connecticut. I can tell you

1635
01:28:12,320 --> 01:28:15,040
Speaker 6: that's about a seventy five to ninety minute drive because

1636
01:28:15,040 --> 01:28:15,960
Speaker 6: I yeah, you drive.

1637
01:28:15,840 --> 01:28:19,400
Speaker 2: A lot with had dead body, dismembered bodies in various

1638
01:28:19,400 --> 01:28:20,480
Speaker 2: bags in the backseat.

1639
01:28:20,880 --> 01:28:21,840
Speaker 3: It's crazy white.

1640
01:28:22,360 --> 01:28:28,320
Speaker 6: So the murderer fotus he died by suicide before the trial.

1641
01:28:28,600 --> 01:28:30,920
Speaker 3: But the girlfriend, Michelle.

1642
01:28:31,040 --> 01:28:36,280
Speaker 6: Traconis she was convicted of being a co conspirator and

1643
01:28:36,439 --> 01:28:38,360
Speaker 6: got fourteen and a half years.

1644
01:28:38,640 --> 01:28:40,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, well deserved. She was in the car if I'm

1645
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:43,400
Speaker 2: not mistaken, while these body parts were being disposed of

1646
01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:46,559
Speaker 2: and she maybe knew about it, and blah blah, like

1647
01:28:46,840 --> 01:28:49,960
Speaker 2: not great, not great, correct me if I'm wrong, if

1648
01:28:49,960 --> 01:28:51,920
Speaker 2: she was not in the car. This is my memory

1649
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:55,400
Speaker 2: serving me. This whole case is great memory served. Remember

1650
01:28:55,960 --> 01:29:01,120
Speaker 2: five young, beautiful children, New Canaan, Connecticut, very affluent, beautiful

1651
01:29:01,120 --> 01:29:04,479
Speaker 2: place in the world's terrible and this guy, good looking family,

1652
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:06,519
Speaker 2: they have the whole world ahead of them, They're living

1653
01:29:06,560 --> 01:29:09,000
Speaker 2: the best lives. He wants to cheat on her, and

1654
01:29:09,040 --> 01:29:10,040
Speaker 2: this is the decision.

1655
01:29:10,640 --> 01:29:12,760
Speaker 3: So his motive was the he wanted to be with

1656
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:14,200
Speaker 3: this girl. Yeah, he wants to be.

1657
01:29:14,160 --> 01:29:16,680
Speaker 2: With the girl. And by the way, Jennifer's sister was

1658
01:29:16,720 --> 01:29:19,840
Speaker 2: not having it in the family. Her family was like, uhh,

1659
01:29:19,880 --> 01:29:23,400
Speaker 2: you're not playing and they went hard on justice and

1660
01:29:23,640 --> 01:29:26,200
Speaker 2: it worked. He ultimately took his life and then yeah,

1661
01:29:26,280 --> 01:29:28,639
Speaker 2: of course the girlfriend took the head, but she had

1662
01:29:28,640 --> 01:29:30,920
Speaker 2: a come in fourteen years she deserved fifty.

1663
01:29:31,360 --> 01:29:34,320
Speaker 4: Well, I think that they're alluding to the fact that

1664
01:29:34,439 --> 01:29:40,440
Speaker 4: they think so the defense doesn't want the text messages

1665
01:29:40,479 --> 01:29:43,360
Speaker 4: with this guy that Anna was texting to be admitted

1666
01:29:43,400 --> 01:29:46,920
Speaker 4: in court, and the defense is like, no, we don't

1667
01:29:46,920 --> 01:29:51,439
Speaker 4: want these text messages and the judges like, well why

1668
01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:53,799
Speaker 4: and they're like, well, doesn't prove she had an affair.

1669
01:29:54,280 --> 01:29:57,880
Speaker 4: And I think they're trying to say, or the state

1670
01:29:58,080 --> 01:30:01,680
Speaker 4: is going to say, the motive for bri In is that,

1671
01:30:01,800 --> 01:30:05,919
Speaker 4: you know, he he had this big art fraud thing happening.

1672
01:30:06,000 --> 01:30:10,800
Speaker 4: He was he was right, okay, And I think they're

1673
01:30:10,800 --> 01:30:12,760
Speaker 4: trying to say the motive for Brian was to get

1674
01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:15,639
Speaker 4: rid of Anna, his wife and the mother of his children,

1675
01:30:16,120 --> 01:30:18,479
Speaker 4: so that when he was going for sentencing for this

1676
01:30:18,640 --> 01:30:22,760
Speaker 4: art fraud, the judge would have leniency on him and say, well,

1677
01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:28,880
Speaker 4: he's the only caregiver for the kids and not right,

1678
01:30:29,400 --> 01:30:33,799
Speaker 4: right and not. You know, this a fair motive type situation.

1679
01:30:34,560 --> 01:30:35,320
Speaker 3: So so she.

1680
01:30:35,400 --> 01:30:38,600
Speaker 2: Wanted out right, so she wants out of the relationship.

1681
01:30:38,680 --> 01:30:41,680
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe can you imagine why she's married to a

1682
01:30:41,680 --> 01:30:43,160
Speaker 2: guy that's going to kill her.

1683
01:30:45,200 --> 01:30:48,519
Speaker 4: For Brian to serve his time and choose life is

1684
01:30:48,560 --> 01:30:51,519
Speaker 4: the quote that a friend used. She wanted him to

1685
01:30:51,520 --> 01:30:53,519
Speaker 4: service time so they could move forward with her life.

1686
01:30:53,640 --> 01:30:55,040
Speaker 4: Whether or not she was going to leave.

1687
01:30:54,920 --> 01:30:57,680
Speaker 2: Him or not, I don't know, but yeah, because he

1688
01:30:57,800 --> 01:31:00,559
Speaker 2: was being brought up on charges because he was he

1689
01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:06,320
Speaker 2: was like faking like banks Andy war real paintings really,

1690
01:31:06,360 --> 01:31:08,559
Speaker 2: so he was like a cron artist, right, So he

1691
01:31:08,720 --> 01:31:12,200
Speaker 2: was under the arrest because of this art fraud strain

1692
01:31:12,360 --> 01:31:15,880
Speaker 2: that he pled guilty to at the time of her disappearance.

1693
01:31:15,439 --> 01:31:16,880
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah.

1694
01:31:17,280 --> 01:31:20,439
Speaker 4: So the so it's it's kind of a wild case.

1695
01:31:20,479 --> 01:31:24,800
Speaker 4: So yeah, the jury selection starts tomorrow. Trial should begin

1696
01:31:24,960 --> 01:31:27,679
Speaker 4: December first, and we're definitely I'm definitely going to be falling,

1697
01:31:27,800 --> 01:31:29,040
Speaker 4: like I watched it this morning.

1698
01:31:29,160 --> 01:31:31,760
Speaker 2: So no, we were all, this is okase, that's very

1699
01:31:31,760 --> 01:31:33,120
Speaker 2: close to your heart that you're going to be filling

1700
01:31:33,160 --> 01:31:35,640
Speaker 2: us and every day for sure, every day, every day. No,

1701
01:31:36,200 --> 01:31:40,000
Speaker 2: the first thing this morning, body had been following in time.

1702
01:31:40,600 --> 01:31:45,880
Speaker 3: So yeah, we like at the bit. By the way,

1703
01:31:45,920 --> 01:31:47,320
Speaker 3: I had my own court case.

1704
01:31:47,160 --> 01:31:55,400
Speaker 4: Today, my traffic ticket, my criminal status, d I'm clean yourself.

1705
01:31:55,439 --> 01:31:57,960
Speaker 2: Did you get up there and say I deject You're

1706
01:31:58,000 --> 01:31:59,160
Speaker 2: like I said object.

1707
01:31:59,439 --> 01:32:02,000
Speaker 3: Judge said why did you let your registration lapse?

1708
01:32:02,040 --> 01:32:04,759
Speaker 4: And I was like I did and he was like okay,

1709
01:32:05,000 --> 01:32:06,800
Speaker 4: and he's like, he said, are you guilty? Said I'm

1710
01:32:06,880 --> 01:32:09,840
Speaker 4: very guilty, and he's a girl account. He said, okay,

1711
01:32:10,200 --> 01:32:14,240
Speaker 4: here's your discount. Because you know I was guilty registration.

1712
01:32:15,360 --> 01:32:17,720
Speaker 3: I owned it. He paid one hundred dollars. I'm not

1713
01:32:17,800 --> 01:32:21,360
Speaker 3: a criminal anymore. On the right side.

1714
01:32:22,960 --> 01:32:29,679
Speaker 2: We loved you either way, Buttrofile that was a little

1715
01:32:29,680 --> 01:32:31,080
Speaker 2: word and Adam were concerned.

1716
01:32:31,720 --> 01:32:33,240
Speaker 4: I was like, what's going to happen if they held

1717
01:32:33,280 --> 01:32:35,920
Speaker 4: me off to jail like my dogs? So how are

1718
01:32:35,960 --> 01:32:38,080
Speaker 4: the how's the team gonna know?

1719
01:32:38,200 --> 01:32:44,000
Speaker 2: We're gonna look, we have to Courtney here, she's the

1720
01:32:44,040 --> 01:32:44,599
Speaker 2: bank heister.

1721
01:32:45,880 --> 01:32:46,679
Speaker 3: She'll get you clear.

1722
01:32:48,680 --> 01:32:48,880
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1723
01:32:49,040 --> 01:32:54,840
Speaker 3: I was there at seven o'clock this morning, my little love.

1724
01:32:55,160 --> 01:32:59,000
Speaker 2: Well, listen, guys, big day tomorrow, a confusing day tomorrow,

1725
01:32:59,080 --> 01:33:02,200
Speaker 2: an interesting day to tomorrow, an important day tomorrow. So

1726
01:33:02,280 --> 01:33:04,640
Speaker 2: let's all pay attention. We want to hear your talkbacks,

1727
01:33:04,840 --> 01:33:08,240
Speaker 2: so appropriate talkback Tuesday. Anything you want to share, we

1728
01:33:08,280 --> 01:33:11,960
Speaker 2: want to hear. We love you, be safe, true crime tonight.

1729
01:33:12,000 --> 01:33:13,320
Speaker 2: We will talk to you tomorrow.

1730
01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:14,120
Speaker 3: Bye.