WEBVTT - League of Lady Poisoners: Interview with author Lisa Perrin 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:06.760 Welcome to Criminalia, a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:07.760 with iHeartRadio. 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:17.040 Hello, and welcome to Criminalia, where we explore the lives 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:20.200 and motivations of some of the most notorious criminals in history. 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:23.640 In this special episode, we're returning to our season one 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:26.960 roots to talk about Lady Poisoners with author and illustrator 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:27.760 Lisa Parrin. 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:31.760 I'm Marian Marky and I'm Holly Frye. Welcome, Lisa. It 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:33.360 is so delightful to have you here. 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:35.680 Thank you. I'm tickled to be here. 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:39.479 So for our listeners, Lisa is, as Maria said, the 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:43.640 author and illustrator of the League of Lady Poisoners, illustrated 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:47.000 true stories of dangerous women, and she is with us 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:50.760 today to talk about the stories of women who deliberately 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:55.320 poisoned everyone from strangers to family members. Okay, so right 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:58.760 out of the gate, Lisa, it's not just us. There 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:00.840 are a lot of other people who love this topic. 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:04.400 So why do you think we're all so obsessed specifically 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:05.680 with women poisoners? 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:08.280 Yes, I love that question. I'm so glad to be 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:13.559 amongst my people here. I was actually really surprised when 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:16.840 I thought of this idea that there wasn't more about 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:19.800 women poisoners as a genre or as a concept. There's 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:21.840 certainly a lot of true crime books, and there's even 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:25.920 increasingly more books and stories about women criminals. But I 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:28.240 had always heard, and I imagine you have too, this 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:31.720 old adage that poison is a woman's weapon, and that 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:35.400 there is this cultural connection between women in this particular 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:40.000 vehicle for murder. But I was surprised that there weren't 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:44.559 more podcasts and books and movies on this subject. As 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:47.000 to why, I think there's a lot of reasons. I 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:50.400 think it's a bigger interest in true crime and in history, 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:52.720 and I love the kind of historical true crimes and 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:55.560 how weird they can be. I have a few theories 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:58.080 on what keeps people coming back to true crime tales, 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:00.440 and I think a few of them are us that 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:04.040 they're great examples of storytelling. I think we have heroes 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:07.440 and villains, and we have dramatic action and a climax, 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:10.720 and then hopefully sometimes we get resolution and justice. So 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:14.239 I think just they're compelling for that reason. I've noticed 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:17.760 specifically that women are interested in true crime. I think 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:19.679 that's a fair thing to assert, again with everyone in 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:22.640 the room. It's a safe way to engage with the 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:25.960 thing we're the most afraid of, listening to podcasts about 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:28.400 it and reading books about it. It's like we can 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:31.120 finally let ourselves think about that most scary thing with 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:33.480 enough distance that it's not happening to us or someone 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:36.760 we know personally. Then I think, finally we feel like 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:39.120 we're doing research on some level, like we're going to 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:41.520 protect ourselves because we know what happened to them and 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:43.560 we're not going to do that thing. So that was 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:45.800 like why I think we're all maybe on the true 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:49.280 crime bus. But as for poison specifically, there is this 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:53.560 long historical connotation that women were the ones who were 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:57.280 making tinctures and solved like these wise women and witches 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:02.480 and had access to different materials or ingredients that could 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:06.880 cause harm. And because they had access, and in theory 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:10.799 that women are more duplicitous or more likely to harm 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:14.840 by more secretive means that there is this connection. The 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:17.360 whole impetus for the book. What for me was is 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:22.040 this true? And is it you know? And if not, 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:23.640 why has it endured? 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:27.040 When Holly and I worked on the first season, we 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.480 sympathized with a lot of the women that we covered, 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:33.480 and it was surprising. Did it surprise you in that 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:37.240 way too? Did you become more or less distasteful or 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:39.720 tasteful towards your subjects as you were researching and writing 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:40.200 about them. 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:42.840 Most of my response I've gotten to the book so 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:45.640 far has been generally like really positive. The only critical 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:47.840 comments I've gotten, and I think you might appreciate this, 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:49.920 is that I have read in a few places that 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.760 they find my take on this a little too sympathetic 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:57.200 to the murders. I think a valid and I think 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:00.880 is interesting. I understand, but I think you too will 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:05.120 understand more than anyone else that these stories are not straightforward. 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:07.920 There's so much more nuance, and usually there's so much 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:11.160 more context, and once you have more of that story 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:14.680 in that background, and you understand more of the motivation, 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:16.920 which of course is hard to completely know or understand 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:19.200 and to get into someone else's mind. But when you 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:22.600 have more of that story fleshed out, you see their 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:26.040 situation differently, and you understand that most often these were 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:29.200 acts of desperation. This was like a last ditch resort. 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:31.919 The themes that I kept coming up against were women 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:35.360 who were using poison as a way to escape abuse 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:38.640 or situation that they had no agency in. And I 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:42.240 think many modern women today would have a lot of 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:44.800 sympathy for that because we do have so much more, 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:48.440 not in all places, certainly, but ideally hopefully some more 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:51.560 control over our lives and our futures and our own 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:55.279 money and finances. And this was something that interested me 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:57.240 because it wasn't just in one place. This is a 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:01.080 global study throughout the world, and of these same themes 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:03.599 kept coming up. This is not in all cases too. 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:05.440 There are definitely women in this book where were like 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:09.760 that is absolutely it is not across the board, like, oh, 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:14.640 you cannot sympathize for this woman. She is killing just unabashedly, 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:17.680 with no fear or sadness or guilt. 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:19.800 You think of that quote where people say there are 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:22.039 no female serial pillars and you're in the middle of 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:23.920 this kind of research, and you're like, I think there. 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:28.920 Might be, Like I beg to differ you me names 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:29.559 I can share. 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:34.479 You mentioned motivation, and I want to talk about that 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.320 a little bit because that's how you organize the book, 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:41.599 which is fascinating. Your poisoners in each chapter are grouped 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:45.400 by the motivation whether that's that it was their profession 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.240 or greed or love, et cetera. What led you to 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:53.480 that structure versus doing something like in chronological timeline or geographical, 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:55.520 Like why was that the way you wanted to do it? 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:59.320 To be honest, at first, my plan was chronological and 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:01.760 I'm lucky to have a really thoughtful editor for the 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.000 book at Chronicle Books, and she was like, you could 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:06.920 do that, that would be fine. She just left us 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:08.480 up to me, and she gave me the question, is 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:12.880 there a more interesting way to organize these chapters? And 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:15.400 I thought, I didn't even think about that. There were 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:18.240 a couple of options, like geographical, but I think when 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:21.200 I thought about motive, I was like, that's so much 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:23.919 more interesting to me because it brings together women from 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:27.080 throughout the world and history in the same chapter. And 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:28.880 you see how much in common these women that you 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:32.440 think would have absolutely you know, no overlap. For me, 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.880 it made those connections richer and more interesting, and I 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:38.800 loved getting to see the parallels of two stories that 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:42.520 have never been compared or related to each other now juxtaposed, 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.280 but like being in the same exact world and again 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:49.200 people from different classes like queens and people from really 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:53.320 a lot of poverty in their socioeconomic backgrounds ended up 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.159 becoming more of a sociological examination that I think I 0:06:56.279 --> 0:07:00.360 realized or prepared was prepared for, but it was. It 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:01.160 was interesting. 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:03.560 I actually think that a lot of what you're talking 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:06.280 about is also some of the reason why I still 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:08.880 find our first season to be one of my favorites. 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:13.400 It's so layered and thick and so many stories that 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:15.440 you're never going to get the entire story, but how 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:17.880 much can you get? And it was just really a 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:20.440 very interesting season, not just to talk about the stories, 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:22.280 but to find them and put them together as well. 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:24.840 Did you find that when you were doing your research 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:27.080 that sometimes you had to piece together a lot of 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:31.160 the history that was happening in that moment because you 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:35.200 didn't have enough of that one woman's actual life story 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.200 because they didn't really have them written down and it 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:39.320 didn't get passed along. 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:40.640 Absolutely. 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:43.000 Yeah, it's tricky, but I think you did it. 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:44.119 I think you did it so well. 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:48.160 How did you find a balance between how you portrayed 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:52.000 the dark side of these lady poisoners and their actions 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.120 while maintaining respect for them as well, or at least 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:56.280 a respectful tone. 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:59.880 That was really hard. I knew that I didn't want 0:07:59.880 --> 0:08:02.720 to write a textbook. I don't feel qualified to write 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.080 a textbook. I actually wanted to write something that would 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:07.680 be in a more conversational tone. Actually, I think I 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.120 was really inspired by all the true crime podcasts I 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:14.160 personally listened to, including your own, which is more conversational. 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:16.520 I find it's just so much easier to understand and 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.960 engage with the stories. I have a dark sense of humor. 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.000 I'm a silly person, so I wanted to bring part 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:25.560 of myself to it. But I knew that there would 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:27.200 have to be a balance, that there would be times 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:29.920 where would be appropriate for a little snarky aside and 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:33.000 times when it wasn't. And there are certainly lines that 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:36.760 we removed because that's a little too dark and that's fair. 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:40.360 So trying to strike that balance that took many revisions. 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:44.120 But I wanted it to be engaging to read and 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:46.559 fun to read too, And I think one of the 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:48.839 reasons the things that helps with that is I only 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:52.760 chose historical stories when I was doing my research, and 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:55.360 when I came across modern stories or anything that's happening 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:57.840 now in the contemporary world. It was not fun. It 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.280 was like you could not make jokes about it. The 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:02.520 history gave it a distance that allowed me to make 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:05.960 little cheeky comments. But something that just happened, I didn't 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:09.199 feel it was appropriate to make that kind of commentary. 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:12.360 So I felt making it all historical gave me a 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:15.720 little permission to be cheekier with it. That was part 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:17.640 of the decision making that when. 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:38.240 We understand that concept intimately, absolutely, as we mentioned at 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:41.400 the top of this chat, you didn't just write this book, 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:45.199 you also illustrated it and beautifully so, and that brings 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:48.320 up a raft of questions. Was that always your plan, 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:50.839 where you like, I can write and I also can 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:53.960 sure make art, so let's do that together. Or did 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:55.720 this come up a little more organically. 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:58.199 The way I sort of described this project to people 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:00.319 is that this was an art project for me that 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:04.360 got out of control. Like that's sort of that. I 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:08.120 don't think I set out to write a book when 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.600 this started, I saw it as an illustration series. I'm 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:14.240 an illustrator myself, that's my profession. I am but a 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:16.480 humble picture maker. That is most of what I do. 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:20.720 I mostly do freelance illustrations for other author's book covers, 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.320 So this was my first time kind of having control 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:25.720 over the whole process. It wasn't just the cover. And 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:29.840 I'm a professor of illustration, so my perspective is definitely 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:33.679 that from the visual art. That being said, when I 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:37.320 was young and in college, I double majored in painting 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.880 at the time in English, and I always liked words 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:44.520 and pictures and putting them together, but I professionally had 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.640 only gotten the illustration route. But I think it has 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:49.880 always been my dream to be an author illustrator. But 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:51.880 I got really put off because I thought, I don't 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:54.000 want to write a children's book, and that's the only 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:56.960 way to be an author illustrator. And I was like, 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.960 I don't think my interest is in creating content for kids. 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:04.720 Maybe an older kid, maybe maybe not the wei ones 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:05.960 or so impressionable. 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.160 Here's the bottle of arsenic, kiddo, this is what it 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:12.080 looks like. A is for arsenic. 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.640 It's a little flush poisoned boy to play with. Le 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:18.679 me read our bedtime story and I've been dressing up 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:22.000 like a Victorian widow to read amazing. But yeah, but 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:24.000 like I said, I think it was always my secret 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:27.840 dream to write and illustrate together. When I proposed the book, 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:30.200 I originally thought I would work with an author, I 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.400 would illustrate it, and we would find someone who had 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:35.600 more experience with writing to write it. And I spoke 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:37.720 with some of my colleagues and they said, you have 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:40.240 a background in English, you like to write, this might 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:43.040 be the chance to try it. I think the book 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:45.800 has so much more of my voice because I'm doing 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:47.720 both ends of it, with the pictures and the words, 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:50.080 and I got to live a dream. I think with 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:51.160 this for sure. 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.080 Now that you've done the book and you've done both 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.280 the illustration and the writing, if you came up as 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:00.120 an illustrator, the presumption would be that that was the 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:02.640 more enjoyable part of it. But I'm wondering if the 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:06.360 writing proved to be a surprise dark horse that emerged 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:07.280 as your favorite part. 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:11.120 Yeah, I love a good dark horse. I enjoyed illustrating 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:12.720 it a lot, for sure, and I think that came 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:17.079 to me more easily. But I actually was surprised by 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:21.360 how much I enjoyed the research and the writing. It 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:24.319 was hard. I want to like caveat with that. It 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.480 was it was so challenging. 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:31.400 Absolutely, but these stories. Uncovering these stories is so challenging 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:33.640 yet so cool. I understand what you're saying, Like you 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:35.600 come up with stuff and you're like, wow, I wonder 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:37.040 if I can get a second source on. 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:41.720 That, right, But I made a credible exactly. I found 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:43.439 so much good stuff that didn't make it into the 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:46.480 book because the source was not credible. I could not 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:47.440 validate that state. 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:48.760 Absolutely, I knew I. 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:50.760 Wanted to include all the resources in the back, and 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:53.920 I was like, I cannot listen to not to be legit. 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:56.720 I also felt a lot of duty that I was 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:58.959 like the steward. I don't know if you felt like that. 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:01.160 I did some of these byes who do not always 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:03.480 get told or don't always get hurt, especially some of 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:05.880 the less known ones, and I felt a lot of 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:09.040 obligation to like do right by them. Again, maybe that's 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:11.640 too much sympathy for the murderers again, but I did 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:15.319 feel like I wanted to do it as well as 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.559 I could to represent their story for an audience who 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:19.800 had maybe never heard before. 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:22.320 If you could think of one woman that you wrote 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:25.760 about who could be tried today, do you have someone 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:27.440 who you think that would have a better chance of 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:31.120 being acquitted or somehow rehabbing their image. You know, Holly 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:33.080 and I always talk about how surprised we were when 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:35.800 we did Lucretia Borgia, and we were like, Wow, her 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:39.200 her image out there is so completely different than who 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:41.679 she actually was as a person that I wonder if 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:42.960 you came across someone like that too. 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:46.920 Oh yes, And I think I Lucretia Borgia was also 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:48.079 one of the first ones I thought of when you 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:51.400 started mentioning enough to talk about just a reputation, Oh 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.880 mishap that just this completely. We have no evidence to 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:58.559 back up that she was this scandalous, fem fatal poisoner, 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:00.520 but that has endured through centraal. 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:03.240 She's got the wrong family name, is what she's got. 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:08.040 I read like a six hundred page biography on Lucretia Borgia, 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:12.320 and I was like, give me a little poison. Fingers 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:15.200 crossed I because when I was researching the book, I 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:17.360 was like, who are the most famous women poisoners? Who 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:19.120 are the names that have come to mind first? And 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.360 I asked folks on social media and I can't tell 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:25.200 you how many people responded Lucretia Borgia and Catherine de Medici. 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:27.920 When I was researching this book, I think the biggest 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:30.040 let down for me was finding that both of them 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:33.040 there was no proof for evidence that the head ever 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.880 poisoned anyone, although Catherine de Medici was certainly involved in 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:40.440 other problematic and violent things. The poison specific rumor, which 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:42.880 again I think is often tied to women, true or 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.160 not true, I think, is something like to make a 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:47.360 woman seem evil in history. Maybe to call her a 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:51.360 poisoner is something I have found to tarnish their reputation. Yeah, 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.920 Lucretia Borgia definitely comes to mind. It seems like the 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:57.280 whole Borgia family. When I was doing more research, they 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:01.480 were saying was not different from other powerful families, are 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.080 influential families of the time. It's just one of the 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.480 more famous ones. But not that their behavior was so 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.800 outlandish in comparison to what other similar families with similar 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.360 statuses were doing. And that Lucrezia Borgia had a tough 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.840 life like her father controlled so much of everything she did, 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:21.560 and she passed away quite young in childbirth and was 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.600 put in a position of leadership in her life. I 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.280 don't think people knew that story, but the one that 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:29.680 came to mind and when you asked that question. And 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.200 actually the one that the story that helped me find 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:36.000 your podcast was when I was researching Sally Bassett and 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:37.960 so I was researching and that's when I found your 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:40.720 first season of women Poisoners. And I was, like, they 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.400 talked about her, No one's talked about she was a 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.960 hard one to research. Yeah, there's not a lot a 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:47.560 lot of the. 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.520 Women who come up in the historical record for poisonings. 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:54.600 I think we found were, you know, socioeconomical levels different, 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:55.560 but white women. 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:58.200 Yeah. And I found the same thing. The women who 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:01.480 had long newspaper articles about them and whole books devoted 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:06.520 to them were almost exclusively white and of the Western world. Yes, 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:10.120 And I knew I didn't just want it personally as 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:12.640 an illustrator. I didn't want to draw thirty white men. 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:15.040 I just thought that wasn't interesting to me. I knew 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:16.960 I wanted the book to be more diverse than that, 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:19.680 because I felt the themes being explored here are more 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:23.840 universal than that. But it was much more challenging to 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.640 find the stories of women of color who were involved 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:30.080 in poison and women outside of the Western world. So 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:33.280 Sally was such a powerful story, and I think she's 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:36.200 one that talk about empathy. I think, like when I 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:38.040 talk to people who've read the book since they say 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:41.200 she is a favorite character and one that people see 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:43.880 is more as a hero and not as a murderess 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:46.160 or a villain, so she stands out. I think in 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.280 the Cannon from the other Lady Poisoners. 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.520 You've named her as a bit of a favorite. But 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:53.880 I'm curious, and also this will give our listeners a 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:57.280 glimpse into some of the stories that you have done 0:16:57.360 --> 0:16:59.760 in addition to those we've talked about before. I was 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:02.440 want to ask which one of your subjects is your favorite, 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:05.359 but I think it's probably kinder to say what's your 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:06.440 top three or top five? 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:07.160 Right? 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:11.440 Oh, that is so much kinder. It is people always 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:13.760 ask the favorite, and then I always lawful and there's 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.720 a couple. Right, Yes, that's such a good question. And 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:19.320 I think I have favorites for different reasons. Sometimes their 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:22.600 favorite because like Sally Bassett, I think she was more 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:26.879 of a freedom fighter in a society that completely oppressed 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:30.280 her and used Poisonous this agent of defiance. But then 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:32.960 you get the other ones that are just so silly 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.040 or so weird. I think one that I came across 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:39.879 that I didn't know until actually on my Instagram, a 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:42.840 follower from Argentina said, Oh, my gosh, do you know 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.720 about this? We have a famous woman poisoner in our 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:52.240 history named Yyamrano and she became this big TV personality afterwards, 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:55.440 and they made a musical about her. And I was like, ah, 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:57.000 that is gold. Thank you so. 0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:57.560 Much for that. 0:17:57.840 --> 0:17:59.919 I have to have this story because there's so. 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:05.560 You couldn't dream the way I now want to write 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:08.240 ar Snake the musical, even though musical theater is not 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:09.480 my jam, but no. 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:13.280 It is my dream and I have not been gy 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:16.119 about this is Poison the Musical. I don't know what 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:18.240 it looks like. I know we have lost my beloved 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:20.320 Stephen Sondheim. I don't know who else could do it, 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:21.760 but I can picture it. 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:22.960 I think we could do this together. 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:29.600 I feel ste yes. I think the stories are so fascinating. 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:34.000 Oh and speaking about someone whose reputation like Cleopatra, who 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:38.359 had this famous legend of dying via the poisonous or 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:42.119 venomous fight, Nowadays scientists conclude it was probably that she 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:44.120 drank a cocktail of poison. It would have been much 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:45.840 more effective. 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:47.639 But less dramatic. 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.360 And artistic and creative. I don't know if they would 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:54.440 make us so many paintings or plays about the death 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:56.960 of Cleopatra just drinking out of a cup. It's just 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:59.600 not and I know it as an artist. But the snake 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:01.640 image is it's hard to like go. 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:04.879 That goblet has to be beautiful to compete with a snake. 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:10.119 Yes, I agree, and I tried to make it in 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:12.760 my illustration. I tried to make it a decorative goblet, 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:14.280 but I gave her like the snake in one hand 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:16.720 in the goblet and the other to show that the duality. 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:19.520 This is just a small segment of all the women 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:22.480 I found. Everyone who made it into the book was 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:26.080 because I felt they had some really fascinating quality or 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:27.800 some part of their story that I felt needed to 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:32.000 be told. So they're all my favorites for different reasons. 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:48.520 How do you decide how you're going to visually represent 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:52.159 the Lady Poisoners and her story separate from the actual 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:53.240 writing of the story. 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.080 The format early on that I used for sort of 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:59.520 this portrait that was in a border and woven into 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.520 the border was images or icons from her story and 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:04.760 I had her name sort of hand lettered above her, 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:06.560 and then I left room on the bottom for a 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:09.760 brief summary or synopsis of the story. So I think 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:11.560 it's a book where you could even just flip through 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:13.040