1 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Well, Elon Musk gives now the richest person on the planet. 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,039 Speaker 2: More than half the satellites in space are owned and 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 2: controlled by one man. Well, he's a legitimate, super genius, legitimate. 4 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 3: He says, He's always voted for Democrats, but this year 5 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 3: it will be different. He'll vote Republican. There is a 6 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 3: reason the US government is so reliant on ed Elon. 7 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 2: Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 3: Anything he does, he's fascinating to people. 9 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: Hi, everybody, Max Schafkin here with another episode of Elon Inc. 10 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 1: We have something special for you today. It is an 11 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: interview with Kurt Wagner. Kurt is a social media reporter 12 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg. You heard him on this podcast before, and 13 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: he has a new book. It's called Battle for the Bird, 14 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: Jack Dorsey, Elon Musk and the forty four billion dollar 15 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: Fight for Twitter Soul. Kurt is one of my favorite 16 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: writers at bloom and he really is the go to 17 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: journalist on this topic. And I think it's gonna be 18 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,839 Speaker 1: really great to just go deep on this one specific 19 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: part of Elon Musk's empire. I've sort of imagined this 20 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: conversation in three parts. The first part is going to 21 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: be essentially the man crush that set this whole thing off. 22 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: The second part is going to be we're gonna get conspiratorial. 23 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about why this happened, and there's some 24 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: really kind of crazy things. And the last part is 25 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: gonna be some really smart analysis on where this is going. 26 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: Kurt is here with me now, Kurt Wagner, Welcome to 27 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: Elon Inc. 28 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 3: Hi'm Max. I am thrilled to be here. Thanks for 29 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 3: doing this. It's fun. 30 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 2: It's nice to see you. 31 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: Okay, So the book, you Know, is in large part 32 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: focused on this relationship between Elon Musk and Jack Dorsey, 33 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: the founder of Twitter. But before we get there, I 34 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: just want to talk about why it matters. Like, like 35 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: we sort of spend a lot of time in this 36 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: podcast and outside in the media you see a lot 37 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: of people sort of making fun of the ways that 38 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: Twitter has kind of gone downhill, But like, why does 39 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: a site still matter? 40 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 2: Like why is it important? 41 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: In your mind? 42 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 3: I think when Twitter was at its best, it was 43 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 3: the go to place for literally all breaking news, right Like, 44 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 3: if something happens on the streets of New York, the 45 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 3: first thing you do, literally is pull out Twitter. And 46 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 3: try and figure out like what's going on right here, 47 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 3: and that ultimately attracted like every journalist in the world. Essentially, 48 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 3: it attracted celebrities, that attracted politicians. And even though we've 49 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,519 Speaker 3: seen Twitter change under Elon, I think that a lot 50 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 3: of the kernels of that are still the case, right, 51 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 3: And like Twitter is a place where news sort of happens. 52 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 3: It's like one of the rare places online where like 53 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 3: literally if someone tweets something, it becomes like a global headline. 54 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 3: And we saw that very clearly for four straight years 55 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 3: with the President Donald Trump, as you remember. So I 56 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 3: just feel like this this service is unique in that way, 57 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 3: and that it's like a newsmaker's service. And even under Elon, 58 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 3: I feel like that's still happens. You know, quite a bit. 59 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: You talked about just this thing being like where the 60 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: news happens. It's not quite that anymore, right, It's something 61 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: like it's like that, but more right wing. 62 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 2: It's like that. But with Alex Jones, how do you 63 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 2: see that evolution? 64 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 3: The biggest change for me has been the lack of 65 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 3: Like Twitter was very a quick way to get the news, 66 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 3: and now I feel like it's not quick anymore because 67 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 3: you don't really know who anybody is. Right, Like before 68 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 3: with the verification system, you could like open it up, 69 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 3: you'd immediately see like, Okay, these people, these blue check 70 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 3: people are talking in my feed, and I can sort 71 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 3: of believe with some level of confidence these are people 72 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 3: who I at the very least might want to hear from, right, 73 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 3: Like they're real people, they probably have a position of 74 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 3: some authority, and that has changed. 75 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 4: Right. 76 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 3: Basically, if you have eight dollars, you're a blue check 77 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 3: person now. And so when you open the feed in 78 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 3: like a breaking news environment and you're surrounded by like 79 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 3: all these blue checks who are spouting off, you have 80 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 3: no idea who they are. You have to pause and 81 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 3: do your own research. And so for me, the biggest 82 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 3: difference is, like it is not nearly as reliable as 83 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 3: a news service as it was two years ago. And 84 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 3: considering that was what Twitter was best at, like that 85 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 3: was the thing that Twitter was, that's a huge problem. 86 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: So Twitter's founder, I guess, co founder Jack Dorsey, he 87 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: was a He's he was running the company at the 88 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: time this all went down. YEA. One reason I think 89 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: this book is really interesting and relevant to this podcast 90 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: is because in certain ways, it's like the story of 91 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: it's just partly the story of Jack's sort of obsession 92 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: relationship with Elon Musk, and and also the way maybe 93 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: all of us put things on this person name Nelon 94 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: Bus And I just want to. 95 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 2: Let's just like talk about how did his like, when 96 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 2: did he get so into Elon? Like, like, when did 97 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 2: he become this? 98 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 1: When did Elon become a source of interest to Jack Dorsey, 99 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: you know, famous Silicon Valley entrepreneur. 100 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 3: I'm not sure if I could pinpoint the moment the 101 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 3: admiration kicked in, but we know that it was several 102 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:12,239 Speaker 3: years before Elon took over because Jack used to refer 103 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 3: to Elon as his favorite tweeter quite regularly. 104 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 4: Right. 105 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 3: There's several interviews where people say who do you love 106 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 3: to follow, and he'd be like Elon Musk, he really 107 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 3: pushes the envelope, right, And it's like one way of describing, 108 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 3: you know, getting yourself into legal disputes with the SEC. 109 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 2: But like, I think that, but wait, what is it 110 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 2: about those tweets? 111 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 4: Though? 112 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 3: I think he thought that Elon like was unfiltered, right, 113 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 3: And I think there's I think if you ask Jack 114 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 3: like you've heard him perhaps talk about Twitter as this 115 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 3: global consciousness, right, Like Twitter is the global consciousness, It's 116 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 3: it's the collective way that people think. And for Elon 117 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:51,119 Speaker 3: it was a very unfiltered thought process. As we've learned, 118 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 3: it's just sort of like what comes into his brain 119 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 3: shows up on his Twitter feed. And to Jack Dorsey, 120 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 3: I think he like wished that everyone would be that 121 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 3: free with their thoughts on Twitter, and so he saw 122 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 3: Elon as sort of this like famous example of what 123 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 3: he wanted everyone else to be doing on Twitter. 124 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's weird. 125 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: It's funny how there are certain people. Elon must be 126 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: one of them who are just like intuitively understand this 127 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: thing and maybe understand the nature of celebrity when twenty 128 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: twenty four or whatever. 129 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 2: So you talk about this kind of like Jack has 130 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: this is on this quest. 131 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: Essentially he's still running the company, but he's got he's 132 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: got this Elon specific quest, which is like essentially what 133 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: to get Elon to show up and give a talk 134 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:34,679 Speaker 1: to the company, right. 135 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, So this happens first in twenty eighteen. He tries 136 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 3: to get Elon to come to what's called one Team, 137 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 3: which was like Twitter's like company wide off site and 138 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 3: at the last minute, Elon bails because he's like literally 139 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 3: sleeping on the factory floor building. I believe it's the 140 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 3: Tesla three at the time, the Model three. So he 141 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 3: doesn't show up, and everyone's like, oh bumber, you know, 142 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 3: would have loved to hear from from Elon. Now fast 143 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 3: forward two years, it's twenty twenty and Jack get him 144 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 3: show up. He shows up on FaceTime in front of 145 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 3: the whole company, and it's just like really interesting exchange. 146 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 3: You know, imagine five thousand employees sitting in this convention hall. 147 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 3: They're like looking up at the stage. Jack Dorsey's standing 148 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 3: up there literally holding his iPad, and on the screen 149 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 3: he is face timing with Elon Musk, who shows up 150 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 3: in his Occupy Mars T shirt. I believe he's like 151 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 3: at SpaceX's facility and they have this conversation and like 152 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 3: Jack you can tell, is like he very much likes 153 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 3: Elon and he wants to flatter Elon, and he makes 154 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 3: some joke about hey, like would you love to run 155 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 3: the company someday? Like ha ha haa, and everyone sort 156 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 3: of chuckles, and Elon spends his brief moment in front 157 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 3: of the whole company just complaining about bots, and he's like, yeah, 158 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 3: how do you know who's like what's a botnet versus 159 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 3: what isn't? Are these like short sellers or are these 160 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 3: like real people? Blah blah blah. And he complains and 161 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 3: about bots, and then Jack Dorsey ends the thing and 162 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 3: he's like, we love you, we love what you're doing. 163 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 3: And it ends right, and like in the moment, it's like, Okay, 164 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 3: if you're a Twitter employee, maybe that's like kind of fun. 165 00:07:58,920 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: Doune done done. 166 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's like a movie level like foreshadowing, right, 167 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 3: because you fast forward two years and it's like, oh, 168 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 3: like Jack was like, hey do you want to run 169 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 3: the company? Guess what he's asking Elon? Like, hey do 170 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 3: you want to run the company? What's Elon complaining about? 171 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 3: He's complaining about bots? Right, Like these things came back around, 172 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 3: which is one of the reasons I put in the book. 173 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 3: I just thought it was like such a remarkable scene 174 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 3: two years ahead of the acquisition. 175 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: All right, so let's move on to the takeover, which 176 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: it is just so weird in retrospect. I want to 177 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: walk through this acquisition and talk about, you know, kind 178 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: of what you learned in reporting. The book but I 179 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: think just to kind of set the scene here, I 180 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 1: want to take everyone back to April twenty twenty two 181 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: the Ted Conference. Elon Musk, innovator, World's richest man is asked, 182 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: you know what he's doing, and this is what he says. So, Elon, 183 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: a few hours ago, you made an offer to buy Twitter. 184 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:08,319 Speaker 5: Why how do you know? 185 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: Little bird tweeted in my ear or something? 186 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 5: I don't know. By the way, have you seen the 187 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 5: movie Ted about the bear? 188 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: I have? 189 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 5: I have? Why make that off? 190 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 4: So well? 191 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 5: I think it's very important for that it'll be an 192 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 5: inclusive arena for free. 193 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 4: Speech where all. 194 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 5: So yeah, Twitter has become kind of the de facto 195 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 5: town square. So it's just really important that people have 196 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 5: the both the reality and the perception that they are 197 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 5: able to speak freely within the bounds of the low. 198 00:09:53,800 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: So yeah, super super interesting, totally very mature, totally normal. 199 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: This is great timing, right, Kurt Elon Musk, he's a genius. 200 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: He's got an intuitive sense of business timing right. This 201 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 1: was perfect April twenty twenty two for this moment. 202 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 3: If you're gonna overpay for a social network, April twenty 203 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 3: twenty two was the best time to ever do that. No, 204 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 3: his timing, of course, as we know now was was disastrous. 205 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 4: Right. 206 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 3: I mean, like he comes in, he essentially forces the 207 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 3: board into this deal, right, he gives them this incredible offer. 208 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 3: What he may or may not know behind the scenes 209 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 3: is like the company has set these very lofty targets 210 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 3: around user growth and revenue that they're not coming close 211 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 3: to hitting. They're thinking about doing a second or a 212 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 3: very large round of layoffs, like the business is not 213 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 3: in a good shape. And here comes Elon the White night, 214 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 3: like completely overpaying for Twitter. And so the board jumps 215 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 3: at this, right, and they're like, wow, this is an 216 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 3: incredible exit for this company. That kind of solves a 217 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 3: bunch of these problems that we're that were predicting or 218 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 3: preparing to deal with. And then and shortly after that, 219 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 3: you know, inflation goes through the roof, and you know, 220 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 3: there's a war going on in Europe that starts to 221 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 3: just spook a bunch of people and spook sort of 222 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 3: just the financial market markets globally, and his own net 223 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 3: worth takes this huge hit. Like within weeks, we're talking 224 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 3: tens of billions of dollars of Elon's own net worth 225 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 3: that are just disappearing. And so you fast forward, you 226 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 3: start kind of mid April, and you fast forward one month, 227 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 3: and his whole mindset around this acquisition is already changing 228 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 3: because he's now walked into this really overpriced thing and 229 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 3: he's realizing, oh, my timing was absolutely terrible. 230 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: Maybe that we joke acquisition price was not as funny 231 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: as I thought it was at the time. 232 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 3: Fifty four to twenty didn't slit past a lot of people. 233 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: All right. 234 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: So one of the things again, this was like it's 235 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: it's sort of hard to overstate. I mean, Elon stands 236 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: and even even those of us covered have gotten used 237 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: to the idea that has happened. So it was sort 238 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: of like hard to imagine why this happened. Why does 239 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: this guy who who has basically dedicated his life, by 240 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: his own account, to you know, making humanity a multiplanetary species, 241 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: to saving the Earth from global warming? Like, why does 242 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: he suddenly start worrying about is Twitter going to ban 243 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: Scott Adams or something, or like like is cat turn 244 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: being demonetized? Anyway, he gets really into this and the 245 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: book offers a variety of theories and they're all so 246 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: fun So I just wanted to sort of go through 247 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: a couple of them with you right now, starting with 248 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: I think what is like the Elon Musk fficial version 249 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 1: of the story, which is essentially he had too much 250 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: money in his bank account and he needs somewhere to 251 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: put it. 252 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 3: That's right. This is the theory that was sort of 253 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 3: outlined in Walter Isaacson's recent book about Elon Musk was 254 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 3: that he, you know, like like all of us rich 255 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 3: guys are max you and I know, when you just 256 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 3: have too much money, we got to go spend it 257 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 3: on something frivolous, right, And so this would be the 258 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 3: equivalent of maybe a less rich person going and buying 259 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 3: like a vacation home or a yacht or but for Elon, 260 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 3: it was Twitter, right. And so this is what Walter 261 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 3: sort of says in his book is that he just 262 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 3: didn't want his money to sit in a bank account. 263 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 3: He wanted to do something with it, and Twitter was 264 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 3: like his favorite thing to use, and so that became 265 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 3: the target for him. 266 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess it's also that he really liked it. 267 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: I get sort of related to the Jack Dorsey thing, like, hey, 268 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: this is like my favorite you know, wait to spend 269 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: my time. So do what you love, as they say. 270 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think this for him was like a personal 271 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 3: like favorite product that he very much loved to use, 272 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 3: and so the idea of owning it, I guess sounded 273 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 3: really cool when you have more money than you know 274 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 3: what to do with. 275 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: And the next thing, the next one I want to 276 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: talk about, is this text message that he gets from 277 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: Tallula Riley, who is his two times ex wife. Elon 278 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 1: does everything bigger than most people, so they've actually been 279 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: married and divorced twice, and she sort of makes us 280 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 1: a suggestion to him with respect to Twitter. 281 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 3: Yes she does. 282 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 4: So. 283 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 3: The super quick backstory here is that Twitter had spended 284 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 3: account from the Babylon Bee, which is like a satire site. 285 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 3: I guess that was making jokes about trans people quite frankly, 286 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 3: and you know they're they're off color jokes that not 287 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 3: a lot of people find very funny, but there are 288 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 3: people who do, and Tulula Riley, I guess is one 289 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 3: of those people. And she was upset that the account 290 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 3: had been suspended, and so she texts her ex husband 291 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 3: and says, you know, and I'm looking at this now. 292 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 3: She says, can you buy Twitter? And then delete it please. 293 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 3: America is going insane. And then a few minutes later 294 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 3: she goes, or can you buy Twitter and make it 295 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 3: radically free? 296 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 2: S be fair, we've all had that Twitter. 297 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, we all want Elon to buy Twitter or our 298 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 3: ex spouses to buy Twitter. But you know, here she 299 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 3: is basically saying, can you buy this and make it 300 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 3: radically free speech? In a few minutes after that, Elon 301 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 3: texts back and says, maybe buy it and change it 302 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 3: to properly support free speech. Now you'd think this is 303 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 3: maybe just the kind of like fun banter between two 304 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 3: people who used to have a relationship, but you know, 305 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 3: in the world of Elon, this leads to like less 306 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 3: than twenty four hours, him tweeting to all of his 307 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 3: followers saying like, does there need to be a new platform? 308 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 3: And when people say yes, then a day after that 309 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 3: it's well, now he's suddenly gonna buy shares and try 310 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 3: and join the board of Twitter. Right, And so you 311 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 3: can see how this one like kernel of a conversation 312 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 3: perhaps led Elon down this path towards, you know, wanting 313 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 3: to turn Twitter into this free speech place. And it 314 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 3: all maybe starts with like the Babylon b which I 315 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 3: find to be quite interesting and sort of hilarious. 316 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a back, There's a whole interesting kind of 317 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: side alley we could go down around Elon and comedy. 318 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: He you know, the Babylon B is kind of a 319 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: competitor to the Onion. He at one point had tried 320 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: to take over the Onion. He got worried it was 321 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: too woke. And so it does seem like somewhat plausible 322 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: that he could have been feeling very sympathetic to the 323 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: Babylon B and wanted to commit this forty four billion 324 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: dollar act to resolve it. I want to come back 325 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: to the suggestion that he was trying to kill Twitter 326 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: in a second. In a second, but before we get there, 327 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: the third theory, yeah, is that Elon Musk bought Twitter. 328 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 2: And this is new. This is this is breaking news, folks. 329 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 2: This is in Kurt's book that he did this, Because. 330 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: Now I'm reading a little bit into Kurt's book here, 331 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: But what kurtz book reports is that before buying Twitter, 332 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: Elon Musk was sending complaints privately to Jack Dorsey and 333 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: Paragua Argerwall. We talked about one of those complaints just now, 334 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: but also complaining about this Twitter account that's following his plane. 335 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, so at Elon Jet you may be familiar with 336 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 3: if you followed the World of Elon. It's literally an 337 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 3: account that tracks the whereabouts of his private plane, when 338 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 3: it takes off, when it lands, where it takes off, 339 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 3: where it lands. And Elon was very unhappy with this 340 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 3: for you know, I guess obvious reasons. He didn't like 341 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 3: the idea of his location being out there publicly, and 342 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 3: so he complained to Perogue in January of twenty twenty two, 343 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 3: asking it for the account to be removed, and Parogue 344 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 3: essentially ignored him right or certainly didn't take his complaints 345 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 3: and do anything with it. And so what was interesting 346 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 3: about that timing is that at the very end of 347 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 3: January twenty twenty two was when Elon Musk started buying 348 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 3: shares of Twitter. And you could imagine, and I don't 349 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 3: think this is that huge of a stretch that you know, 350 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 3: he wants this account removed. They're not doing it for him. 351 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 3: What could you do if you had more money than 352 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 3: you knew what to do with, Well, you could become 353 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:26,719 Speaker 3: a shareholder in that company and try and use your 354 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 3: position as a shareholder to sort of pressure them to 355 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 3: take this account down or whatever. And there are people 356 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 3: involved in the deal that I've spoken to believed that 357 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 3: this was a real motivation for him. Now, whether he 358 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 3: intended for it to snowball in the way that it did, 359 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 3: I don't know, but there are people who definitely thought 360 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 3: elon Jet was sort of the genesis of this stock 361 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 3: purchase that he started to do. 362 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: Well. I do think it's believable because as we know 363 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: later on, he takes action, right he bans the He 364 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: bans the creator of elon Jet for a time, and 365 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: in fact bans anyone who anyone who speaks of elon jet. 366 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: If you link to outside, you know, instances of this account, 367 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: you would also get banned, and including he banned a 368 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: New York Times journalists, So it's. 369 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: Clear this was a fixation. 370 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, he did. And he created an entire new policy 371 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 3: at Twitter on a whim about like doxing someone's real 372 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 3: time location and how elon Jet basically violated that policy. 373 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 3: And now elon Jet does exist, but it's like a 374 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 3: twenty four hour delay, so basically you can find out 375 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 3: where Elon flew yesterday versus like where Elon is flying 376 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 3: right now. So this became a thing that he changed 377 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 3: and took action on once he took over. So to 378 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 3: your point, Max, I do think it's like, it's not 379 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 3: that crazy of an idea that this all started with 380 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 3: the Elon jet account. 381 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: All right, well, I want to fly the business jet 382 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: that is this podcast to talk about the actual process 383 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: of reporting this book. You've been covering Twitter for how long? 384 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: I mean, like fifteen years? How long has it been, Kurt? 385 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, eleven or twelve years? Yeah, it's been a very 386 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 3: long time. 387 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: You have all these sources. 388 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, like, how did they process all this craziness 389 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: that's happening, Like world's richest man is like going to 390 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: take over their company and save Western civilization or something 391 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 1: in the process. 392 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 3: I think when Elon first showed up, there was actually 393 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 3: this feeling that, you know, this is cool, this is good. 394 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 3: The richest man in the world, who has more money 395 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 3: than he knows what to do with, could do anything 396 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 3: he wants, and what he wants to do is work 397 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 3: on Twitter, And to a lot of people who worked there, 398 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 3: that was sort of encouraging in the very least, validating 399 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 3: to what they were doing and building. I think it 400 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 3: didn't take very long for them to realize that Elon 401 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 3: was not a good cultural fit for what Twitter had built, 402 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 3: and that his management style was so unpredictable and so 403 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 3: at odds with what they were used to that it 404 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 3: was not really the vibe that they were hoping. I 405 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 3: think if Elon had stayed as a Boor member and 406 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 3: just simply like maybe advised, I think people would have 407 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 3: been actually pretty excited about that. But I think the 408 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 3: takeover itself went sideways quite quickly. 409 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 2: So what was the breaking point? 410 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 3: So there was a meeting in June of twenty twenty two, 411 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 3: so quick on the timeline. Elon Musk arrives in late March, 412 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 3: early April, He's acquired the company on paper. By the 413 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 3: end of April, he starts to sort of bad mouth 414 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 3: the company shortly after that. You know, we talked about 415 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 3: how he realized his timing was terrible. He's sort of 416 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 3: like getting cold feet about this deal. But there was 417 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 3: still this like all employee Q and A that had 418 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 3: been scheduled with Elon for mid June, right, and so 419 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 3: at this point Elon is still supposed to be buying 420 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 3: the company. These are people who are sitting down and 421 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 3: thinking they're hearing from their future boss, right, and so 422 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 3: there's a lot of excitement, there's a lot of anticipation. 423 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 3: And he shows up late. He shows up sort of 424 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 3: a little disheveled his life. 425 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 2: This is an in person meeting, it is on this is. 426 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 3: On video because everyone is still basically working remotely at 427 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,959 Speaker 3: this point. But he shows up late. He shows up 428 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 3: like his collar is like splayed open, his hair is 429 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 3: sort of like messed up. There's like some random guy 430 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 3: that no one knows who it is, who's like working 431 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 3: in the background behind him, and it goes terribly quite frankly, 432 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 3: like he rambles for like eight or nine minutes at 433 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 3: the very beginning. 434 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: Kurt, by the way, we have a clip to play 435 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: I think of this meeting. Let's listen to it quickly. 436 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 4: I mean right now, the costic seed the revenue. So 437 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 4: that's just that's not that's not a great situation to 438 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 4: the end, and so there'd have to be some rationalization 439 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 4: of the headcount expenses to have revenue be greater than 440 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 4: their cost. Otherwise twitter ismply not not viable or you 441 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 4: can't grow, you know. But like anyone who's like this 442 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 4: obviously like a signifaan courtur leader should have nothing to 443 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 4: worry about. 444 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: So, Kurt, where did this come from? By the way, 445 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: this this audio that we just heard. 446 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, this was this from a source of mind who 447 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 3: was at the company at the time, who shared it. 448 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 3: So this was there were a lot of journalists pretty 449 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 3: tuned into this meeting, as you can imagine, at the time, 450 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 3: there were a lot of employees that were happy to 451 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 3: help get this out there. 452 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 1: It sounds kind of brutal in some of the ways 453 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: that all meetings like this are. I guess you're not 454 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: the you know, you know, it's not in person, there's 455 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: like a weird quality. But again, reading the description of 456 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: this in your book, it felt heightened. You mentioned we 457 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: didn't hear it, but I guess he eventually started talking 458 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: about the aliens. 459 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 2: Is that is that right? 460 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 5: That's right? 461 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 3: How he had never seen proof of aliens. That was 462 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 3: mostly how the conversation ended. So that was a bit 463 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 3: of an odd note for people who were not used 464 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 3: to talking about aliens during work meetings. 465 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: Let's go forward a bit and I want to talk 466 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,719 Speaker 1: about where this thing that is Twitter now called x 467 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: that has you know, sort of how dramatically has changed 468 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: since then, and also like what it means for the business, 469 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: which of course what you know, what you're covering now 470 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: for Bloomberg. 471 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,360 Speaker 2: First of all, I just want to just like give 472 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 2: us a little teeny. 473 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: Taste of kind of the next beat of this story, 474 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: which is, to my mind, you know, November twenty twenty three. 475 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: I think you know where this is going, Kurt, But 476 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: Elon Musk doing some really great sales work from the 477 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: stage of the deal Book conference in New York City. 478 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 5: If somebody going to try to blackmail me with advertising, 479 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 5: blackmailing with money? 480 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 2: So how, Kurt, how does Twitter make money these days? 481 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 3: You funny that you should ask Max. They actually make 482 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 3: money from advertisers and you know, the people who Elon 483 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 3: was speaking to when he was on stage at deal Book. 484 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: Do you think, though, there's any chance that in the 485 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: same way that like with cable news, you know, for 486 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 1: many and TV news right for many years, there was 487 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: kind of like one style of TV news was very objective, 488 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 1: and then it with the advent of cable, it bifurcated 489 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: or eventually bifurcated where you had like kind of like left. 490 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 2: Networks and right wing networks. 491 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that could happen with with 492 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: like with social media, I mean that has been like 493 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: kind of the bet of a bunch of entrepreneurs, none 494 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: of whom have done it very well, but also none 495 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: of whom are Elon Musk. 496 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 2: Like, is there like a multi billion dollar right wing 497 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 2: social network? Is that possible? 498 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 3: I'm not super confident that that's possible, only because I 499 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,679 Speaker 3: feel like we've seen, you know, a version of that 500 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 3: with true social right Like if Donald Trump can't necessarily 501 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 3: make a purely like conservative right wing social network work 502 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 3: at at scale, then I don't know why Twitter and 503 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 3: Elon would necessarily be able to do that. I think 504 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 3: it's very possible that there's several of these networks that 505 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 3: show up. Like I can speak anecdotally, like if I 506 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 3: go to Threads, which is the new sort of like 507 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 3: Twitter clone that Meta owns, and you talk like negatively 508 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 3: about Elon over there, your engagement's great. Like if you 509 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 3: want to go get followers on Threads, just go over there, 510 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 3: talk about how much you hate Elon Musk, and you're 511 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 3: probably going to be a very popular person. So you know, 512 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 3: you could see where these things start to diverge, and 513 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 3: like there's networks for differing beliefs or differing viewpoints, but 514 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 3: it's hard to imagine them getting to the scale that 515 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 3: you would need for this to become like a massive 516 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 3: thing the way that Twitter was. 517 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 2: So what do you think is the most Elon likes 518 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 2: to say that? 519 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: What does he like to say the most likely outcome 520 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: is the funniest outcome? Or what do you think is 521 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: the most likely outcome for this story? For the sort 522 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: of Elon Musk Twitter story. 523 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 3: Until very recently, I actually thought the most likely outcome 524 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 3: was going to be bankruptcy, quite frankly, because I thought 525 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 3: that this company was losing money quite consistently, and I 526 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 3: didn't know if Elon had the patients or stomach to 527 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 3: just continually pay out a pocket for this thing to 528 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 3: keep operating. Now I kind of started to subscribe to 529 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 3: this XAI idea, which is like, if he can figure 530 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 3: out a way to use the data associated with Twitter 531 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 3: to make money with something that's not Twitter, it really 532 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 3: takes the pressure off of, you know, the advertising business, 533 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 3: which they clearly aren't doing well. So I kind of 534 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 3: feel like it's going to continue to exist because it's 535 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 3: hard for me to imagine Elon admitting defeat right saying, hey, 536 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 3: I thought I could do this thing, but look, I 537 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 3: ran it into the ground. Does not strike me as 538 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 3: something that we're ever gonna hear him admit to or say. 539 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 3: And so then you say, okay, well, what's the other alternative. 540 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,239 Speaker 3: It's that it gets subsumed by something else. And I 541 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 3: think Tesla is not gonna take over Twitter. SpaceX certainly isn't, 542 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 3: but an AI company. If this is a real thing, 543 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 3: maybe it would be a it would be a logical, 544 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:49,360 Speaker 3: you know, product within that. 545 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: Do you feel like Twitter this thing that has some 546 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: kind of specialness to it in terms of, like like 547 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: you said, like we talked about the beginning, this sort 548 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: of like a heartbeat of the world's information. It's like, 549 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: what is happening right now? It really even if even 550 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: if you can criticize it and still feel like this 551 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 1: thing is important and special, it'd be sad if it 552 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: goes away. Does that feel like a tragedy to you? 553 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: If Twitter becomes just like a way to train bots? 554 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 2: Have we lost something. 555 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: Here during this period and is there any hope of saving, 556 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: of reclaiming or at least preserving some of what is 557 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: actually really good about this thing today? 558 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 3: I do think it's sad, and I think that Twitter 559 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 3: at its best was one of the most entertaining places 560 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 3: you could go on the Internet. And actually, I think 561 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 3: I would have said that this is completely gone, except 562 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 3: for I don't know if you were on Twitter or 563 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 3: I keep calling Twitter, or maybe I should call it X. 564 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 3: I was on X during the super Bowl and I 565 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 3: actually kind of got a glimpse of like what old 566 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 3: Twitter used to be, Like, like being X during the 567 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 3: super Bowl was fun for me, and maybe those moments 568 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 3: will crop up. 569 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. It's like, on one hand, I'm sad. 570 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: It's like you were like we were like a junkie 571 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: and like we're getting this like really cut down version 572 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: of the old high and we're still still into it. 573 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 2: On the other hand, I think you're right. There's something 574 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 2: there is just something. 575 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: You can criticize social media and feel like it's bad 576 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: and it can be a vehicle for all sorts of 577 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: the ingrandizement of billionaires, but it does have a magic 578 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: to it, and I think that's maybe a good place 579 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: to leave things. Kurt Wagner, thank you so much for 580 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: being here on Elon Inc. Battle for the Bird is 581 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: out now. You can read an excerpt at Bloomberg dot com. 582 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: You should also go buy the book from your local bookseller. 583 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 2: Kurt, thank you for being here. 584 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: And looking forward to seeing you next time as a 585 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: panelist on this show. 586 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 3: This was awesome, Max, thank you so much. I love 587 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 3: chatting with you and getting the chance to talk about 588 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 3: the book, So thank you very much. 589 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: Okay, let's end it there. Thanks for listening to Elon Inc. 590 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: And thanks to Kurt Wagner once again. The book is 591 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: called Battle for the Bird and it's on sale now. 592 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Stacy Wong. Naomi Shaven and 593 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: Rayhan Harmansi are our senior editors. 594 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 2: The idea for. 595 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: This very show also came from Rayhon Blake Maples handles engineering, 596 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: and we get special editing assistants from Jeff Grocott. Our 597 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson, and thank you as always 598 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: to Joel Weber. The Elon Inc. Theme is written and 599 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: performed by Taka Yazzawa and Alex Seguiera. Sage Bauman is 600 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: the head of Bloomberg Podcasts and our executive producer. I'm 601 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: Max Chaffman. If you have a minute, rate and review 602 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: this show, they'll help new listeners find us and we 603 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: will really appreciate it, and we will see you next week.